May 30, 2024 • 56 mins
In this episode of Real Men Hug, hosts Jim and Ben navigate their personal journeys through challenging life events, reflecting on the role of forgiveness in healing and moving forward. They share updates on their family lives and dive deep into their experiences with betrayal and abuse. Ben shares a poignant story about working for an organization that functioned like a cult, detailing the emotional toll it took and how he found freedom through forgiveness. Jim revisits the frustration he had with a former employer's laziness in repairing his home. Together, they pause and reflect on the themes of letting go, seeking counseling therapy, being open to the time it takes to heal, and whether or not to let the person who wronged you off the hook. The discussion extends to the complexities of self-forgiveness, setting boundaries, and the importance of forgiving for personal healing. Tune in to uncover how forgiveness can transform pain into peace and why it is essential for personal growth.
And hey, if you love what you hear, consider supporting the show at buymeacoffee.com/realmenhug. Your contributions keep us going and help us bring you more episodes filled with laughter, insights, and relatable stories. Join us in growing and strengthening our community of real men who aren't afraid to hug it out. Thank you for being a vital part of our journey!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jim (00:02):
Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Jim.
And I'm Ben.
Oh, welcome to the show.
We're a little rusty, aren't we?
Ben (00:15):
We are.
It's been a number of weeks.
I, I say number because I'm noteven sure how long it's been.
Jim (00:20):
So it doesn't feel like it to you, but Ben and I actually
haven't seen each other.
And yeah, it's been a few weeksnow that we've seen each other.
We recorded.
A couple of episodes at the sametime.
So we had some in the Tumblr andthen of course our collaboration
with round table mindset, webroke into two and it just, we
(00:41):
always try to have a coupleepisodes kind of on the back
burner, but it just sort ofworked out because both of us
just life slammed into us and itwas just great timing that we
were able to just take a littlebit of time off to.
Figure stuff out.
So we haven't even like taught,we text it a little bit.
(01:01):
Oh,
Ben (01:02):
I don't know about we, I'm an over texter.
I look through our conversation,Jim, and I see literal
paragraphs from me.
And I'm just like, yup.
And occasionally I'll get a gif,but mostly it's a yup sometimes.
It'll be, uh, three sentencetext, but rarely
Jim (01:21):
listen, they say a picture is worth a thousand words.
So a gift must be worth like 10,000 million.
So that means that I've beentexting you more than me,
actually, if you think about it
Ben (01:33):
nice
Jim (01:33):
and the gifts always bring a smile to your face, right?
Oh, yes.
Well, maybe not always, but mostof the time, is it really that
bad where I'm just like, yes.
Okay.
You don't understand Ben.
I have had, I mean, we bothhave.
But it's just been such astressful, the last few weeks
have been crazy.
I think both of us have kind ofbeen.
(01:55):
We at least know what's goingon.
Yes.
There's just been a lot of stuffgoing on with my family.
In fact, part of why we haddecided to do batch episodes is
because we knew that my wife wasgoing to go in for surgery on
her mouth.
Honestly, the funny thing aboutthat was the worst part for her
wasn't the pain or the recovery.
(02:15):
It was that she could only eatliquid food.
She was hangry for like twoweeks in a row.
So, cause all she could eat waslike pudding and jello and
smoothies.
Yogurt.
Oh man, that's going to be mylife
Ben (02:33):
soon.
Wow.
You're having a mouth surgery.
Eventually, I was planning tohave surgery locally here in the
Grand Rapids area.
However, my surgeon said that mycase is quite complex and
advanced and I'm going torequire more recovery than what
(02:53):
the local hospitals can offer.
I will very likely be one ofthose patients with a nurse that
is Like right there all thetime.
Jim (03:02):
Sure.
That's nuts to me to think abouthow they're saying that you need
to be referred out of the areabecause we've got like the
medical mile downtown.
It's one of the like besthealthcare systems in the
nation.
So that's nuts that they'relike, yeah, but this specific
issue, you need to go toKentucky or wherever you're
(03:25):
going.
Ben (03:27):
I'm not going that far to Kentucky, thankfully.
I'm going to the University ofMichigan.
So, still in state, but a couplehours away.
And that is like the besthealthcare system in Michigan.
The premier mouth doctor.
Apparently.
Gotcha.
So.
Jim (03:46):
You've had a bunch of surgeries done.
Ben (03:48):
Well, only one so far and this huge one coming up, but
yeah, it feels like a bunch.
Maybe I just
Jim (03:54):
think it's a bunch because you keep breaking yourself.
And so I just think of Ben inthe hospital with a broken back
or some sort of like, I don'tknow, an ice pick stuck in your
head or something.
Thankfully, that's neverhappened.
Oh my gosh, that'd be terrible.
So I mentioned my thing.
I had a couple other thingshappen too.
But I know you also had a busythe last few weeks was kind of
(04:17):
crazy for you as well.
Ben (04:18):
Yeah, my oldest son graduated from high school and
actually agreed to get some helpfor some ongoing issues he's
been facing.
So that is Very exciting news.
Looking forward to seeing somepositive emotion in his life.
It's been a rough go.
Uh, my daughter is in New YorkCity.
(04:39):
Actually, she's on her way homeat this point.
Uh, with a school trip.
And, uh, we decided, well Mightas well just go out and buy a
house while the kids are awayfor the week.
So that's what we did.
That's nuts.
I'm
Jim (04:53):
excited for you.
Yeah, it'll be fun.
So, did you have to sell yourkidney in this housing market,
or did you find a pretty gooddeal?
Ben (05:01):
We found a deal.
Decent deal.
However, we put an offer on adifferent house, did not get it.
And so now we had to go out andfind a different house after
that big bummer.
So the one that we found, it waslisted on Wednesday.
We had our offer in Thursdaynight.
That's just how quick you haveto move.
(05:21):
For sure.
Jim (05:22):
Yeah, it's a complete with a new podcast studio, right?
Yes,
Ben (05:27):
I am excited for that.
That'll be good.
We can get a poster or somethingthat says Real Men Hug and put
it in the backdrop.
There you go.
Jim (05:34):
I'm thinking more of like a neon sign.
Ah, yeah.
You know, one of those old,yeah, turn it on, timer
recording.
Ben (05:42):
Yes.
Jim (05:43):
Yep.
I dig
Ben (05:44):
it.
So.
Yeah, lots of exciting stuffhappening.
Work has been busy as usual.
Seems like there's always anincrease in cyber security this
time of year.
Because people are off onvacation and so hackers like to
target computers and whatnot.
(06:05):
So I've been dealing with thatwith some of my clients.
Not fun.
Jim (06:09):
That's when I do all my hacking is during big vacation
periods like that.
Ben (06:14):
Yeah, there you go.
That's when Jim has the mosttime to work.
I also turned 40.
That was kind of a big deal.
Oh
Jim (06:22):
my gosh.
Ben (06:23):
We didn't even talk about it on the podcast.
Old now.
I know, man, but Jim was herefor my 40th.
Uh, I had, I think like eight ornine of my friends showed up.
It was super fun.
Sat around the fire in the coldevening of April.
It was a good time.
Jim (06:42):
Yeah, it was good.
It's nice to spend some qualitytime together and usher in
another new decade.
So here it is.
One decade closer to death Somorbid I wanted to like take a
drastic turn, you know We'reabout today's episode We're
about to dive in you know, wewere gonna talk about
(07:04):
forgiveness, but I think weshould just talk about death
instead But in all seriousness,I know we had asked our
listeners kind of a fewdifferent topics that we wanted
to touch on and kind of the twoof the big ones that we heard
were sort of like an episodetalking about raising kids.
(07:25):
And then forgiveness was anotherpretty close near tie on what we
wanted to talk about.
But we decided to go theforgiveness route and cause I
just think there's, there are alot there.
There is.
Ben (07:39):
I just loaded.
Yeah.
It's
Jim (07:40):
an interesting topic.
I think just because.
I don't know about you, but myperception of what forgiveness
is has changed a lot over theyears.
Yeah.
Um, and obviously it's rightnow.
I'm just kidding.
I could still be wrong, but Ifeel like where I am now with
forgiveness is a lot healthierplace than it was, you know,
(08:02):
when I was a teenager, let'ssay, yeah, for sure.
Ben (08:07):
I've grown up.
With this mentality that beforeI can forgive somebody, I need
to heal.
Like I need to make sure thatI'm okay.
Um, I've got to address all thedamage they inflicted upon me.
I need to do all the thingsbefore I can really forgive
(08:30):
somebody.
And what I've been finding inthe last year or so is that
that's not how it works.
With forgiveness.
I don't heal first so that I canforgive somebody.
It's flipped.
I forgive somebody so that I canexperience healing.
(08:54):
The healing doesn't come first.
The forgiveness is part of thathealing process.
And realizing that has beenpretty life changing for me.
Jim (09:05):
You're right, when you're talking about some of those big
things, that, I think, was mymentality, too, that, that I was
actually in the wrong, or thatit was somehow bad, that I
hadn't forgiven somebody.
Even if like I was activelybeing hurt or like the situation
(09:27):
hadn't totally resolved and it'slike, well, who cares about what
the other person is doing to youand how they've hurt you?
There's more focus and attentionput on me because I'm just not,
I haven't forgiven that personyet.
And so now I have to deal withthe trauma of whatever happened
and the guilt I'm getting fromother people and internalizing
(09:50):
because I haven't forgivensomebody.
And I'm just like, screw you.
Like I, you don't know what I'mgoing through and how dare you
like, but teenage me doesn'treally know how to stick up for
myself as well.
So instead it's just like, well,great.
I guess.
I just get hurt and I'm a badperson.
Awesome.
So I don't know, there was noself care.
(10:14):
There was no reflection, butit's just not in my nature to
bury feelings.
Sure.
I want to interact with them andfilter through them.
And I've learned over the yearsto do it better, but because I
couldn't bury them like I wasbeing told, then I just got the
guilt instead, because I can'tforgive this person because I
(10:36):
can't.
Move on from the hurt thathappened, right?
So I can't forgive them becauseI've been told I can't forgive
them if I'm still upset and Ihaven't You know, quote unquote,
forgotten about it.
Right.
So it's just like, cool.
So now I'm hurt and I apparentlyam a jackass for not forgiving
that person.
(10:57):
You know what I mean?
Like that's, that's what I grewup with.
Sure.
Turn
Ben (11:01):
the other cheek and just let it go.
And all of these truisms thatare painful.
I hate it.
So
Jim (11:09):
I shared that a little bit in our boundaries episode, you
know, where I talked about mywife and her situation with her
mom and a lot of this stuff thathappened when they were kids
that honestly I really didn'teven get into, uh, some of the
stuff that happened when she wasyounger that really traumatized
her in a lot of ways.
(11:30):
But it's not like it just wentaway.
It's not like she grew up andthen all of a sudden she has a
great relationship with her mom.
Like it's still very much a workin progress.
There's really very littlerelationship there.
Forgiveness doesn't just meanignoring the pain.
The hurt, the trauma, the abuse,whatever that's coming your way,
(11:54):
but there's still one particularfamily member that we get the,
Oh, like you have to love eachother and you just need to
forgive.
And I've even directly saidlike, that's not how this works.
Okay.
Like I get it and I am going toforgive, but I'm not, I'm not
going to take my boundariesdown.
I'm protecting myself.
Yes.
And you have to remember thisperson is the one who is doing
(12:18):
the bad thing.
Me having a boundary, I'm notthe one you should be talking
to.
Like if you so desperately wantto see this relationship
reconciled, then you go talk to.
Melissa's mom and, and confronther about her stuff instead of
telling me that I should put myboundary down.
And then I, I'm like, I, and Idon't want to talk about this
(12:41):
anymore if you can't understandthat.
Yes.
Is that wrong?
Ben (12:44):
I don't think that's wrong.
Just because you forgivesomebody doesn't mean that
they're magically dismissed fromthe natural consequences of
whatever happened.
Similarly, if somebody is reallypressing you to forgive somebody
else, first of all, that's nottheir place.
(13:06):
And so to clap back, I think isappropriate because they don't
even know what they're talkingabout unless they've walked in
your shoes a fair distance.
Jim (13:16):
Yeah.
Ben (13:18):
So I don't think it's inappropriate by any means, but
I think.
The thing about that perspectivethat you shared that strikes a
chord with me is the fact thatso often we think of forgiveness
as a one time thing, and it'slike a decision we make once,
and people want us to make thatdecision and just be done with
(13:39):
it, and why can't you justforgive them and move on?
Well, because it doesn't workthat way.
Ah, forgiveness?
Is a choice that you make everyday.
It's making a choice in yourhead intentionally saying I am
choosing not to hold thisoffense against that person
(14:00):
anymore.
Yes.
And it's not just a one anddone.
I forgive you.
So now we can be besties again.
Besties with testes.
Jim (14:12):
I mean, it's great if you can get to that point, but.
I think a lot of us are smartenough to realize when, at the
very least, it's going to be avery long time before there's
reconciliation and or you'repretty sure there never is going
to be reconciliation.
You can hold hope somewhere inthe back nethers of your mind,
(14:37):
but there's not going to bechange and that's when those
boundaries come up.
And that's when you recognize,you know what, I'm just going to
have to actively forgive thisperson.
And part of the boundaries isthat I don't want to spend any
more time resenting this personor hurting this person.
one of my favorite quotes andactually Joe Pellerito, friend
(15:00):
and friend of the show sharedthe quote as well.
Resentment is the poison youdrink to hurt the other person.
And to me, part of forgivenessis just stop drinking the
poison.
Don't dwell on the conversationthat you just had, and
especially, don't dwell on theconversation that you might
(15:23):
have.
Ben (15:24):
Oh, that's good.
Jim (15:26):
It is like something that a lot of us, we will have
conversations in our head withpeople that may never happen,
and then you stress out about aconversation that isn't actually
real.
Yeah, oh yeah.
You're hurting yourself, there'sno reason.
Ben (15:41):
No.
Instead of ruminating andinternally having that
conversation with just yourself,go have that talk.
I found that the conversationsthat I have inside of my head
typically go far worse than theyactually do with the person.
(16:01):
Like if I can get off that crazyanxiety cycle of, well, if I say
this and what are they going tosay?
And if I.
Own this.
Will they own their part?
Instead of analyzing everything,just go to the dang person and
say your piece.
Yeah,
Jim (16:18):
I, I agree for the most part, but let me tie in, another
mutual friend, Kayla Cunninghamand friend of the show, fellow
improv troop mate from back inthe day, she's actually a legit
counselor and deals with.
Stuff like this.
Her response to the show wasit's important to be and feel
(16:38):
safe before you forgive overemphasizing forgiveness before
safety can be a manipulationtactic and can lead to abusive
patterns.
So I guess in response to whatyou said, I think.
If it's a safe relationship,then that's an option.
But when it's a near guaranteethat you're just going to get
(17:01):
hurt or further abused, you'regoing to be tempted and may even
continuously fail at havingthose conversations.
Partly, honestly, I think, causeyou're just scared or you're
traumatized or whatever.
So I think that Kayla made areally good point that it is
important to feel safe first,and I don't.
(17:23):
I don't know.
I guess I'm going to say itanyways.
I don't think you owe anybodyyour forgiveness.
No, I don't think so.
I think it's something thathonestly, a lot of times you do
for yourself.
Ben (17:35):
Yes.
You owe it to yourself toforgive that person.
You don't owe it to that personto forgive them.
Jim (17:41):
Especially when it's abuse.
Yes.
And that's physical abuse andmental abuse.
They both spiritual abuse bothleave scars.
Absolutely.
Yeah so I really love what.
what she said.
Most people listening to thishave heard somebody say to them,
why can't you just love eachother or why can't you just
forgive your sister?
Why can't you just so often thatis a family member trying to
(18:06):
challenge you because you aretrying to buck an abusive
pattern that's been happening inthe family cycle.
And if you do that, then all ofa sudden, everybody around you
has to acknowledge that they hadplayed a part in that trauma and
in that abuse.
So you're going to get a lot ofresistance at first.
And the sucky part about that isyou're the one who is
(18:29):
traumatized and you're like thelast person that should be doing
it because to defend yourselfagainst family members.
It's just not fair.
Ben (18:37):
No, that's not for me.
When I think about forgiveness,I have a very, very picture
perfect, clear, Understanding ofa situation that was awful.
And that took me a long time toget to a point where I could
forgive.
I'm going to make a pretty boldstatement.
(18:58):
There was a season in my lifewhere I worked for an
organization that I Operated andfunctioned like a cult.
In that environment, I and otherstaff were belittled, demeaned,
torn down.
Mainly the men who worked forthis organization were just, we
had targets on our back.
Jim (19:19):
Yeah.
Ben (19:20):
And the way that we were treated by the leadership team
was atrocious.
And just the things that weresaid to me, things that were, I
Set about my state of brokennessafter the season of loss that I
endured that led us back toMichigan Just some of the
(19:42):
phrasing that was used of likeyou came back wounded with a
broken leg And now it's my jobto set your leg back in place
like no, it really isn't Iendured hours long conversations
in a windowless conference room.
Like it felt almost like aninterrogation at times.
(20:05):
There were just so many weirdthings that looking back as I
unpack that season of life withmy therapist and with close
friends, it's just like, thatwas pretty much a cult.
And when you're a part ofsomething like that, and it
becomes so closely attuned towho you are as a person, and you
(20:27):
find your value in the work thatyou're doing there, and then the
rug gets pulled out fromunderneath you, oof, it's
brutal.
I finally came to a point whereI realized that The environment
I was in was unhealthy.
The things being spoken over mylife and said about me in the
presence of other team members,even.
(20:50):
The way that I was belittled,then it was like leadership
opportunities and advancementopportunities and things like
that were carried on a stick,and the stick was used to really
beat the employees intosubmission, and, we'd have to go
without paychecks if donationswere down, but the leadership
(21:12):
still got their checks.
So many crazy, weird things thatwere not okay.
Jim (21:18):
For sure.
Ben (21:19):
And honestly, it really effed me up in a lot of ways,
going back to Kayla's point,like before you can forgive, you
need to be safe and comfortable.
And it took me.
The better part of 10 years toget to a point where I felt
(21:41):
safe, where I was able to workwith a therapist and undo all of
these things, these lies, these,these false identities that
were, put on me by thisorganization, it took a lot of
work to undo that stuff.
And finally, this year, I wasable to get to a point where I
(22:02):
genuinely forgave thisorganization and its leaders.
I can't tell you how muchfreedom that brought me.
Yeah.
And it was during that processthat I learned that whole
perspective of you don't healfirst and then forgive you
forgive so that you can heal.
(22:24):
I just picture it as like thisgiant,, wadded up ball of yarn
that I had to untangle with mytherapist over the course of
five years.
And finally, as we got thatstraightened out, I did feel
like I was in a position wherefor my full and complete
healing, the next step Was toforgive and to release so as
(22:46):
undoing the knots getting it allentangled so it didn't hold me
captive anymore and then justchoosing to set it down.
Yeah, and that's the work offorgiveness.
Now there are times where youbetter believe I want to pick up
that ball of string, especiallyas I hear about.
Friends from that time periodwho are now acknowledging some
(23:08):
of the pain that they carriedduring that season and how
difficult it was for them.
I have a couple of friends whojust can't even talk about that
season of life because it was sopainful in their process of
healing and, and forgiving theycan't even put words to it yet.
And so when I hear stuff likethat, it is so.
(23:31):
tempting to just pick that yarnup again and to get it all back
into a knot and get mad andupset and frustrated.
But I'm learning that I justneed to let it be.
Let it be.
I, I've done everything I needto do for myself to heal and to
grow and to move on.
And so if I want others toexperience that same piece, I
(23:53):
need to just let it be and trustthe process and not try to steer
things or make this organizationpay for the damage it's caused.
Just let it be.
Jim (24:07):
How long has it been since that experience?
Ben (24:10):
Ten years.
Ten years.
And when I left thatorganization I was alienated and
separated literally fromeverybody else on staff.
They took the staff to the otherend of the building, the
administrative wing, and left mein the program office to pack up
(24:32):
my things and leave.
And when I tried to go to saygoodbye to everybody, I was
stopped at the door and I wasn'table to do that.
That is just so brutal.
Yeah, and that's on the heels ofall of the losses that we
endured in Oregon.
I was broke when I came intothat place and I was far more
broken when I left.
Jim (24:55):
It's crazy just to hear that story and think how much
hurt and how little of you wasseen in that.
You guys can hear it a littlebit, but I'm here watching Ben
and I can see like how much thisbothers you.
Even 10 years later.
That was one of our questions ortopics from some of our
(25:15):
listeners too, is like, do youhave to forget?
Is that a qualification?
And not at all.
Resoundingly.
No.
I think that that's not good foryou to, to do at all.
And so you're still livingthrough this hurt just because
you forgave them.
It doesn't mean that.
It doesn't still bother you tothis day.
So, and Uh, I was reflecting onit too and thinking it's
(25:40):
especially hard the more of avested interest that person has
on your life or the more controlthat person has on your life or
the more that person is part ofyour worldview.
So when you think about it, likea spouse can hurt you more than
almost anybody else.
Mm hmm.
Society is another big one.
(26:02):
We all want to fit in.
It's amazing how when there's acultural shift, all of a sudden
now everybody pretty much thinksthe same thing, even though five
or six years ago, 40 percent ofthose people thought something
completely different.
And when it comes to religion, Ithink that's why so many people
(26:23):
are disillusioned with thechurch, because what the church
often gets wrong is they focuson trying to be something rather
than I don't know, likefollowing God or being Christ
like it becomes almost like thissocial club where you have to be
(26:45):
a certain way and act a certainway.
and so I think for you, correctme if I'm wrong, but I think
that's why it hurts so muchbecause this wasn't just your
first job at like the printershop or whatever.
This was a ministry for you.
So when that was taken from you,you weren't just losing a job.
You felt like you were being.
(27:05):
Alienated.
And like, you were like thisbroken, hopeless case that just
needed to be tossed out and youcouldn't even say goodbye to
your friends.
When would that ever happen inany other professional setting?
That's infuriating to me.
Ben (27:20):
It absolutely is.
And the other thing that makesthis all very difficult and
convoluted is the fact that theexecutive director wasn't just
somebody I met when I moved backto Michigan.
Oh no, we had history.
This is a person who helped meget my start in ministry at a
(27:41):
very young age as a teenager.
In the context that I was as ateenager and not really having a
solid understanding of.
boundaries and what'sappropriate and what's not.
I just ate up everything thisperson had to say about me and
believe it as gospel truth.
That is the nature of therelationship.
(28:04):
When I took the job, I reallydid see this person as like a
hero of mine.
And so to go from hero to zeroreally was very difficult.
There were so many.
Talons, so many claws that werejust deep into my life that I
(28:27):
had to really find a way to getthose claws out and let those
scars heal.
It works the other way too.
I mean, as a general rule, ahundred percent, you really
can't fully heal until youforgive.
I agree with that.
Not arguing that for a moment,but I think the flip side can be
(28:47):
true in certain circumstanceswhere like Kayla's talking
about, you really have toconfront and address the abuse
before you can truly forgive.
Jim (29:01):
I agree, but I also can't help but wonder, like, how do
you forgive somebody who's donesomething truly horrifying, you
know, like your, your situationwas terrible, but I'm thinking,
like, how do you forgivesomebody who was knowingly got
(29:23):
into their car drunk and T bonedyour kid and killed them.
How, how do you forgive thatperson?
How do you forgive the person?
I, I can barely even say it, butlike, if you're a sexual abuse
(29:44):
survivor, how do you forgivesomebody who's done something
that terrible?
Do you have to forgive them?
Like, I, I don't know if I knowthe answer to that.
Like, what, what do you do?
Cause I don't disagree thatthere's healing on the end of
forgiveness, but I don't know ifsomebody kills my kid.
(30:09):
I want to hang on to thatbitterness.
For the rest of my life.
Like I, that would be so hardfor me, but I agree.
I think it's like, um, thatquote from Nelson Mandela, if
you're familiar with him,important dude, and spent like
30 years in prison, justbasically because he wanted
(30:31):
black people to have rights inSouth Africa.
And he said.
After getting out of prison, hesaid, As I walked out the door
toward the gate that would leadto my freedom, I knew if I
didn't leave my bitterness andhatred behind, I'd still be in
prison.
Man, and this dude, like he'sbeen through some stuff that
(30:52):
we'll never know or experience.
So I, I agree, I just, to someextent, I just say it because I
can viscerally feel like howterrible it would be to go
through an experience like that.
But that goes back to thatpoint.
Like at some point or another,you have to forgive.
And move on.
That doesn't like morally givethat person a pass.
(31:15):
That forgiveness is foryourself.
Yes.
That you are allowing yourselfto move on from that situation
so that your life isn't takenover by bitterness.
Yes.
Otherwise you might as well.
Just be on that road yourselfand, and stay there.
Yeah.
You let that situation rob youof the rest of your life.
Ben (31:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And going back to the thought offorgiving an abuser, honestly,
it's hard for me to use thatword.
I think it's a pride thing.
This leader of the organizationwas very much abusive in many
ways.
And here's the thing, though.
I don't have to go to thatperson and say, I forgive you.
(31:58):
No.
No.
I, I'm not going to.
That is a boundary that I haveset.
I have committed myself to nottalk to this person.
I'm also not going to name dropthis person.
The organization name.
And there's a reason for thatbecause to me, that's what
forgiveness is.
It's, I'm not going to leavethis person on the hook and I'm
(32:20):
not going to try to demean themor defame them or their
organization.
Now, if I have a friend thatsays they want to go work there,
I'll certainly be like, Hmm, youmight want to think on that
really hard, but I'm not goingto tell them not to.
All that to say, I'm not goingto go to this individual to tell
them that I forgive them.
(32:41):
Yeah.
Because it's not for them.
Sure.
It's not.
It's for me.
And I am at a place where I cansay I am choosing to lay that
down as nasty and painful,isolating It was terrible to
have my last day be marked bybeing separated and ostracized.
(33:05):
That was painful, but for aspainful as it was I've come to a
point where I can remove thatthorn from my skin.
I don't have to keep pressingthat thorn to know it's there.
Yeah, I can just let it be.
Jim (33:19):
I think important point of clarification for you.
Part of that forgiveness was notimpugning the organization or
the name.
For plenty of people out there,there is absolutely nothing
wrong with.
And even we would encourage youspeaking out, especially when
it's somebody who serially hasdone horrible things and will
(33:41):
continue to do so you, youspeaking out publicly about
that, we applaud you for doingthat.
That is not what we're trying tosay here for Ben specific
situation.
Part of his forgiveness was.
It's not my place or my job, butyeah, if somebody is going to
hurt other people along the wayand you feel called to do that,
(34:04):
there is nothing wrong withcalling those people out.
Ben (34:07):
Not at all.
Yeah.
And that's something that I'vegiven so much thought to
because, well, I don't know howelse to say it other than
Sometimes I can be obsessed withdrama.
I like a good story.
There have been times where Isat down and opened up the news
tip pages on the local newsstations, just wanting to air
(34:30):
all of my concerns with thisplace and like, have them do an
investigative review.
And I didn't do that because foras awful as my experience was,
and It was awful for many of myfriends.
People are naturally findingthat out about this
organization.
It's not hinging on me going outand raising the battle cry.
(34:54):
Like you can only keep a facadeup for so long and yeah, this
organization's facade has been,I would say crumbling on its
own.
They didn't need my help to makethat go any faster.
That's what it is for me.
It's a conscious choice,
Jim (35:10):
Sure You had a situation in your life where another
organization did something wrongand you did publicly say, Hey,
this organization really screwedup other people.
You ought to be real careful.
And you sought out some sort ofresponse against that
organization because in thatcase.
(35:31):
Someone really could have been.
Ben (35:34):
Yeah.
there was a daycare facilitythat left my son on a playground
at his school unattended forhours without realizing that
they forgot to pick them up.
Okay.
Now we're talking about.
Neglect of a child.
That's a pretty big deal.
Right.
Jim (35:50):
Forgiveness isn't just like, well, everybody makes
mistakes and then you don't sayanything.
And
Ben (35:55):
you can't run a childcare center and do that kind of
thing.
And I only made a big deal outof it because I went online and
I checked the records, I checkedthe complaints and I was
certainly not the only one.
There were quite a few.
I did go to the news.
(36:15):
I mean, my roommate from collegewas executive producer at the
time, so he got his best peopleon it, and ultimately that
daycare center closed down.
Jim (36:26):
It was a habitual thing that was happening.
So that's my point.
Like forgiveness does not meanforgetting.
In fact, sometimes you activelyhave to fight against the thing
that is causing the issue thattraumatized you.
Yeah, absolutely.
Sometimes the right thing to do.
It was just a you situation.
You got hurt.
And you're only going to end upgetting hurt more by trying to
(36:49):
seek justice.
Sometimes the best thing to dois let it go, but sometimes you
got to pick up your sword and goit into the fight.
Yeah, absolutely.
Ben (36:59):
what's your criteria for determining that?
Like, when do you know that youneed to go into the fight and.
Have a battle.
When do you know that you justneed to let it go?
Like Elsa?
Jim (37:12):
When I see something that is damaging to a family system
or, or that could cause furtherharm, I don't know.
Your situation with theorganization, what I have gone
to the news or something,probably not because that's an
instance that I'm like, you knowwhat?
I just, I feel so hurt.
I don't have the energy or thedesire to fight an entire
(37:35):
organization, right?
I'm going to move on, but I havethis big justice component to me
that when I feel, especiallywhen somebody either through
extreme laziness, where maybe Ishould explain this one.
When I worked at the college,there was a situation where I'm
(37:56):
living on campus, right?
And the guy who ran campusservices at the time, it was
very, the best way to describeit is like the worst cook ever
where like they start the greenbeans and then the green beans
get done and then you start themashed potatoes and then the
mashed potatoes are done andthen you put in the roast beef
(38:16):
and four hours later the roastbeef is done but your green
beans have been boiled to snotand your mashed potatoes are
freezing cold because it wasn'tlike, Hey, what's the timing of
this?
Right?
That was the way this guy ran.
Campus services and it justterrible at project management.
Absolutely terrible.
(38:38):
in my opinion, the dude justdidn't care.
He was just living it out untilretirement, which when you're
working on a campus, a lot oftimes, is it that big of a deal
if it's a professor's classroomor this or that, but the problem
is it's my house, right?
So when they're.
Is an issue that is causing, youknow, like a water to actively
(39:03):
leak into my apartment.
Now, I don't just get to go homesomewhere else.
This is my home.
This isn't my classroom.
Yeah.
I have to sleep in it.
And several times things likethis would happen.
And I'd be like, what are youdoing about it?
And basically.
At that point in my life, I wasnot yet the quite as loud spoken
(39:24):
as I am about this kind ofstuff, but it got to a point
where it's just like, seriously,what are you doing?
It's been three months and we'restill sitting here, right?
I've been sleeping at mysupervisor's house.
Oh man, because I can't even,Sleep in my own apartment at the
time.
And I was so mad at this guybecause he just didn't care.
And when I look at theprocesses, I'm like, you could
(39:48):
have fixed this problem twomonths ago.
You just wanted, you know, thepotatoes to get done first.
And I'm like, screw you do likeyou are.
Actively ruining my life and youare just whistling around
campus.
And I was so mad and so bitterat this guy that it ruined my
relationship with everybody elseat campus services who honestly
(40:11):
really had nothing to do withit.
But then eventually they kind ofgot looped into it because I was
into the drama.
You know, like I got so mad thatI became like.
An enemy, because I was tryingto seek justice, but
unfortunately I didn't haveanybody in a position of
authority that was backing meup.
Sure.
(40:31):
It sounds like a silly thing,but think about it.
Like you're in your house andyou're not safe.
You're not secure.
Talk about Maslow's hierarchy ofneeds.
I was down to the foundation andI was just raw.
And it happened over the courseof years that I was just so fed
up.
And so it's like, how do youforgive this dude when.
(40:53):
He isn't changing anything.
And in fact, in oneconversation, I said, you know,
I'm, I'm sorry for the way Ireacted and I just wanted to let
you know, like, that wasn'tokay.
Right.
And his response was like,everybody makes mistakes, no
culpability or apologies on hispart whatsoever.
(41:13):
And I was just like, dude, in myhead.
But at that point I was like,okay, like this guy is so
clueless.
All I'm doing is hurting myselfby being this mad and it's not
worth it.
I'm not going to say that Iwouldn't still be mad if
somebody was disrupting my lifethat heavily, but through that
(41:34):
situation, I think it helps shedlight to the question that you
asked ages ago about, how do youmake that decision?
If you find yourself justshaking your fist at clouds and
the person isn't even there andyou're not even actively doing
anything to remedy thesituation, what's the point you
(41:55):
have to, you have to askyourself, like, why am I mad?
Is me being mad, fixinganything, am I really, am I
helping the situation or am Ionly hurting myself?
Sure.
If you can channel that rageinto justice and fixing a real
issue, then go for it, but Ididn't have to be as angry.
(42:20):
As I was, and I think if I wouldhave, I don't want to be too
harsh on young Jim because ittruly was a life disrupting
thing.
Right.
I just shared a touch of whathappened.
Ben (42:35):
And old Jim needs to forgive young old
Jim (42:37):
Jim needs to forgive.
Yeah, exactly.
Um, but in that situation, if Iwould have been more level
headed and Try to find the rightpeople to talk to you and
outline my complaints withoutjust Calling into This person,
cause this person's, you know,seven levels ahead of me, like
(42:58):
me throwing accusations, isn'tdoing any good.
So I think it just has to comedown to like, what's the point
of you trying to do somethingabout it?
Uh, cause I don't think anybodyshould.
I feel it's necessary to be theperson that tumbles the big
organization who's hurting a lotof people.
(43:20):
I applaud you and I think you'rebrave for doing that.
But I think ultimately you haveto decide what is best and most
safe for you.
And I.
I don't know if you can be toohard on yourself because not
everybody is the person who canstand in front of the tank
because they think that this isa horrible situation.
(43:43):
Sometimes you're just trying tosurvive.
And if you're that person, thelast thing I want you doing is
beating yourself up because youdidn't do something about it to
stop it from happening tosomebody else.
Good point.
Ben (43:57):
Yeah, when you were talking about just that blood boiling
sensation of that frustrationlevel with the campus services
guy, I think that's one prettygood litmus test of your need to
forgive somebody like if Justthe mention of somebody's name
(44:18):
is enough to raise yourheartbeat and get your blood
pressure going.
It's probably a good indicatorthat there's something there
that you need to forgive and tolet go.
Not for their benefit at all.
It's not even about them, butfor your benefit, the mention of
somebody's name or the thoughtof it.
Thought of somebody should notbe enough to trigger that kind
(44:41):
of a stress response in yourbody.
And so if you have those peoplethat just make your skin crawl
when you're around them, whenyou hear their name, maybe
that's an indicator for you toforgive and to enjoy the freedom
from that, uh, sense of doom andgloom at the thought of their
(45:04):
name.
Jim (45:05):
And honestly, you might, if you felt any amount of guilt
from what Ben just said, knowthat like, that's not what he
was trying to say.
That's not what we're trying tosay.
That forgiveness again is foryou.
And you might need counseling tohelp you get to that point,
because especially if you're avictim of abuse, we're not ones
who are going to indicate thetimeline for which you're going
(45:29):
to be.
You no longer shudder at the,that name, but that's when you
know that, I guess maybe say itthis way, that you can forgive
the person, but it doesn't meanyou're automatically going to
heal.
Right.
That's just step one.
And if it's bad enough, it mightalways hurt, but I can't imagine
(45:50):
it's going to be worse byforgiving somebody.
Yes.
Yeah.
Ben (45:54):
Yup.
So.
With all of your stories aboutcampus services, I've got to be
honest for a second.
There was one time during JTerm, my senior year.
Most of the school is off forholiday break.
I needed to check my mail and Ihad a slip in there saying that
(46:14):
I had a package and in order topick up the package, I had to
walk across the building.
Well, on this particular day,they were resurfacing the wood
floor in the The atrium of thequorum and it's closed off and
Ben, for some reason, thoughtthat, he was entitled to get his
(46:35):
package come hell or resurfaced.
Flooring.
I just walked on that stickyresurfaced wood floor to go to
the mailroom to get my packageAnd.
As soon as I get to the mailroom, I noticed that my shoes
are super sticky.
I just made a big mess out ofthis project.
(46:58):
And here comes this campusservice guy.
He was pretty upset and for goodreason, didn't think too much of
it until one of the guys whoworked in student development
calls me into his office.
As a college student.
I didn't see it as a big deal,but apparently it was a very
expensive project.
(47:18):
So I had to.
Be the one to go and apologizeand ask for forgiveness.
My experience with campusservices opposite of yours, I
was the one that caused thedamage.
Have you forgiven them?
Jim (47:36):
Yeah, I, I was mad for a long time, but it's not, it's
more of a story that I share incontext like this.
Ben (47:45):
Bitterness is a very hard thing to shake.
And I don't know that.
Forgiveness and bitterness cancoexist and if they can it's a
very tenuous challengingRelationship that they have with
each other but in my experiencethe things that have made me
(48:07):
bitter bar none It's the thepeople that have done me wrong.
The things that really get meupset and bitter are the things
that other people did to me andYou just got to come to a point
where you don't dismiss whatthey've done to you But you're
also not bitter about it andthat's a tough transition to
(48:30):
make Yeah,
Jim (48:32):
I think kind of the key point that we hit In this
episode is one, just don't beatyourself up so much when it's a
really traumatic situation.
Like you survived that situationand with as tough as it is,
sometimes all you can do issurvive.
So sometimes you just need toforgive yourself.
And like you were talking aboutold Jim, new Jim, I look back
(48:55):
at.
At what he went through in mylife, not these specific
circumstances, but all of it.
And I think like, man, I was sostrong to be able to make it
through some of that stuff.
So I made mistakes along theway.
Absolutely.
But I also endured a lot ofhardships.
So I, sometimes you got to giveyour old self credit instead of
(49:17):
just beating yourself up andsaying like, man, I was such an
idiot.
Or if I only would have donethat.
One, you didn't have the powerof hindsight like you do now.
And two, you were in the thickof that situation, right?
That it's easy to lose contextfor that.
So that's huge.
And I think the other big pointthat we're trying to make here
is that forgiveness is reallyfor yourself to be able to move
(49:40):
on from whatever hurt that is,where you stop drinking that
poison.
Yes.
That's really only hurtingyourself.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
In a lot of those situations,the person hasn't thought about
you for years.
So why do you continue to punishyourself?
Yeah.
Ben (49:59):
That's good.
Jim (49:59):
With something that happened a decade ago.
Right.
But again, if you're a personwho's gone through a truly
traumatic thing, you don't haveto feel guilty about that
either.
No, not at all.
Ben (50:11):
There's something to be said for survival.
And when you are in a season oflife where all you can do is.
Is survive and just keep puttingone foot in front of the other
every day, day after day, that'sall you can do.
Don't beat yourself up for that.
I mean, that's huge that you'reable to even take those steps
(50:35):
But in the same breath, Igenuinely do not believe that we
were only created just tosurvive Yeah, I think that all
humans have the capacity tothrive But you can only get to
that point of thriving bysurviving And so, don't beat
(50:57):
yourself up for what worked foryou in that season of survival.
I mean, honestly, there weredays where my anger and
frustration towards this personwho caused me harm is what
motivated me to move forward.
So, don't feel like You know,you have to just suddenly clear
(51:17):
the slate of what somebody'sdone to you by no means, but
instead of just clearing theslate, maybe just taking a step
back and seeing it for what itis and seeing that what you're
doing now is just surviving, butthen being able to take a couple
steps back further and see,okay, Well, how can I shift out
(51:39):
of this mode and into thrivemode?
But it's all a process.
And that process looks differentfor each person and in each
circumstance, there's not like aneat flow chart that we can
point you to, but just beauthentic and be true to
yourself as you go.
Jim (51:59):
I guess my, my final thought, cause we didn't really
touch on this is if you are theperson that you need to forgive,
that honestly could be probablya whole different episode, but
it's like
Ben (52:12):
part two right there,
Jim (52:14):
but you heard us say forgiveness is for yourself.
If you did, if you were the onewho did something terrible, you
have to be able to forgiveyourself and maybe the lie
you've been telling yourself isthat if you forgive yourself,
it's somehow excusing yourbehavior.
That's not what it means.
(52:34):
It means you are allowingyourself to move on and grow.
You are forgiving yourself forwhat you did in the past to
allow yourself to be a betterperson today.
We have all made Big mistakes inour life that we wish we could
take back.
Ben (52:51):
Yes,
Jim (52:51):
this is your cue.
Today is the day that you needto forgive yourself or seek
counseling so that you can getto a point that you can forgive
yourself.
If you're at that point whereyou recognize what you did was
wrong and you want to be abetter person, you can forgive
yourself.
Ben (53:10):
Yes.
Yeah.
Back during this season where Iworked at this organization,
because of the mental state Iwas in, because of how awful the
season was, I was not the dadthat I could have been or should
have been to my son in thatseason.
And recently he's thrown that inmy face.
And that's the hardest thing, toforgive myself and to give
(53:33):
myself grace and to acknowledgethat despite how awful it was in
that season, I really genuinelydid the best I could with my
kid.
Was it perfect?
By no means.
Does he remember some of thechallenges and difficulties of
having a depressed dad?
Yeah, he talks about all thetime he spent reading books and
(53:55):
whatever else.
Unfortunately, that experiencenegatively impacted him.
And so now I need to do the workof forgiving myself.
And just saying, I did the bestI could in that moment.
You did your best.
And you just gotta forgiveyourself and, and don't stay
there.
Jim (54:15):
You've heard us say that before.
All you can do is your best.
Sometimes you gotta forgiveyourself when it wasn't enough.
Ben (54:20):
And there are gonna be times where it's not.
Just gotta let it go.
Jim (54:25):
Hey, thanks so much for listening to our episode today.
We're so glad that you couldjoin us.
What a heavy topic, but a goodtopic.
I don't know.
There was some catharsis for meto be able to dig through some
of this stuff.
I feel like in some of ourearliest episodes, it was almost
traumatizing to talk, but whenit's couched in a framework of
(54:46):
forgiveness.
I don't know.
It almost feels a little bitmore like taking a weight off of
my shoulders.
Yes.
Ben (54:53):
There is so much freedom in forgiveness.
Yeah.
Like it's light work in that asyou forgive, the burden just
minimizes.
So good.
Well, thank you again for beingwith us on today's episode.
So glad that you could join us.
Jim (55:10):
Peace out.
It's been so long since we met Iforgot our a and remember And
remember real men hug, but theyalso forgive
Ben (55:20):
real men hug and they also Allow themselves time to forgive
Jim (55:26):
real men hug But they also hold on to bitterness for years
and years and nurture it like atiny little seedling Wait, wait,
no No, don't do that.
Don't nurture the bitterness.
Maybe I did that.
A little too much.
Ben (55:46):
Real men hug, but they don't walk across freshly laid
laminate flooring.
Jim (55:52):
Ooh, I honestly can't believe that you thought that
that was an okay thing to do.
Ben (55:58):
I know, I know.
Jim (55:59):
What a jerk, like, oh I gotta get my package.
Ben (56:03):
Like, I don't wanna walk outside and go around the
building, it's too cold forthat.
So I'm just gonna walk rightacross.
Jim (56:10):
Real man hug, hurdy dur.
Hurdy durdy dur.
Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Jim.
And I'm Ben.
Oh, welcome to the show.
We're a little rusty, aren't we?
Ben (00:15):
We are.
It's been a number of weeks.
I, I say number because I'm noteven sure how long it's been.
Jim (00:20):
So it doesn't feel like it to you, but Ben and I actually
haven't seen each other.
And yeah, it's been a few weeksnow that we've seen each other.
We recorded.
A couple of episodes at the sametime.
So we had some in the Tumblr andthen of course our collaboration
with round table mindset, webroke into two and it just, we
(00:41):
always try to have a coupleepisodes kind of on the back
burner, but it just sort ofworked out because both of us
just life slammed into us and itwas just great timing that we
were able to just take a littlebit of time off to.
Figure stuff out.
So we haven't even like taught,we text it a little bit.
(01:01):
Oh,
Ben (01:02):
I don't know about we, I'm an over texter.
I look through our conversation,Jim, and I see literal
paragraphs from me.
And I'm just like, yup.
And occasionally I'll get a gif,but mostly it's a yup sometimes.
It'll be, uh, three sentencetext, but rarely
Jim (01:21):
listen, they say a picture is worth a thousand words.
So a gift must be worth like 10,000 million.
So that means that I've beentexting you more than me,
actually, if you think about it
Ben (01:33):
nice
Jim (01:33):
and the gifts always bring a smile to your face, right?
Oh, yes.
Well, maybe not always, but mostof the time, is it really that
bad where I'm just like, yes.
Okay.
You don't understand Ben.
I have had, I mean, we bothhave.
But it's just been such astressful, the last few weeks
have been crazy.
I think both of us have kind ofbeen.
(01:55):
We at least know what's goingon.
Yes.
There's just been a lot of stuffgoing on with my family.
In fact, part of why we haddecided to do batch episodes is
because we knew that my wife wasgoing to go in for surgery on
her mouth.
Honestly, the funny thing aboutthat was the worst part for her
wasn't the pain or the recovery.
(02:15):
It was that she could only eatliquid food.
She was hangry for like twoweeks in a row.
So, cause all she could eat waslike pudding and jello and
smoothies.
Yogurt.
Oh man, that's going to be mylife
Ben (02:33):
soon.
Wow.
You're having a mouth surgery.
Eventually, I was planning tohave surgery locally here in the
Grand Rapids area.
However, my surgeon said that mycase is quite complex and
advanced and I'm going torequire more recovery than what
(02:53):
the local hospitals can offer.
I will very likely be one ofthose patients with a nurse that
is Like right there all thetime.
Jim (03:02):
Sure.
That's nuts to me to think abouthow they're saying that you need
to be referred out of the areabecause we've got like the
medical mile downtown.
It's one of the like besthealthcare systems in the
nation.
So that's nuts that they'relike, yeah, but this specific
issue, you need to go toKentucky or wherever you're
(03:25):
going.
Ben (03:27):
I'm not going that far to Kentucky, thankfully.
I'm going to the University ofMichigan.
So, still in state, but a couplehours away.
And that is like the besthealthcare system in Michigan.
The premier mouth doctor.
Apparently.
Gotcha.
So.
Jim (03:46):
You've had a bunch of surgeries done.
Ben (03:48):
Well, only one so far and this huge one coming up, but
yeah, it feels like a bunch.
Maybe I just
Jim (03:54):
think it's a bunch because you keep breaking yourself.
And so I just think of Ben inthe hospital with a broken back
or some sort of like, I don'tknow, an ice pick stuck in your
head or something.
Thankfully, that's neverhappened.
Oh my gosh, that'd be terrible.
So I mentioned my thing.
I had a couple other thingshappen too.
But I know you also had a busythe last few weeks was kind of
(04:17):
crazy for you as well.
Ben (04:18):
Yeah, my oldest son graduated from high school and
actually agreed to get some helpfor some ongoing issues he's
been facing.
So that is Very exciting news.
Looking forward to seeing somepositive emotion in his life.
It's been a rough go.
Uh, my daughter is in New YorkCity.
(04:39):
Actually, she's on her way homeat this point.
Uh, with a school trip.
And, uh, we decided, well Mightas well just go out and buy a
house while the kids are awayfor the week.
So that's what we did.
That's nuts.
I'm
Jim (04:53):
excited for you.
Yeah, it'll be fun.
So, did you have to sell yourkidney in this housing market,
or did you find a pretty gooddeal?
Ben (05:01):
We found a deal.
Decent deal.
However, we put an offer on adifferent house, did not get it.
And so now we had to go out andfind a different house after
that big bummer.
So the one that we found, it waslisted on Wednesday.
We had our offer in Thursdaynight.
That's just how quick you haveto move.
(05:21):
For sure.
Jim (05:22):
Yeah, it's a complete with a new podcast studio, right?
Yes,
Ben (05:27):
I am excited for that.
That'll be good.
We can get a poster or somethingthat says Real Men Hug and put
it in the backdrop.
There you go.
Jim (05:34):
I'm thinking more of like a neon sign.
Ah, yeah.
You know, one of those old,yeah, turn it on, timer
recording.
Ben (05:42):
Yes.
Jim (05:43):
Yep.
I dig
Ben (05:44):
it.
So.
Yeah, lots of exciting stuffhappening.
Work has been busy as usual.
Seems like there's always anincrease in cyber security this
time of year.
Because people are off onvacation and so hackers like to
target computers and whatnot.
(06:05):
So I've been dealing with thatwith some of my clients.
Not fun.
Jim (06:09):
That's when I do all my hacking is during big vacation
periods like that.
Ben (06:14):
Yeah, there you go.
That's when Jim has the mosttime to work.
I also turned 40.
That was kind of a big deal.
Oh
Jim (06:22):
my gosh.
Ben (06:23):
We didn't even talk about it on the podcast.
Old now.
I know, man, but Jim was herefor my 40th.
Uh, I had, I think like eight ornine of my friends showed up.
It was super fun.
Sat around the fire in the coldevening of April.
It was a good time.
Jim (06:42):
Yeah, it was good.
It's nice to spend some qualitytime together and usher in
another new decade.
So here it is.
One decade closer to death Somorbid I wanted to like take a
drastic turn, you know We'reabout today's episode We're
about to dive in you know, wewere gonna talk about
(07:04):
forgiveness, but I think weshould just talk about death
instead But in all seriousness,I know we had asked our
listeners kind of a fewdifferent topics that we wanted
to touch on and kind of the twoof the big ones that we heard
were sort of like an episodetalking about raising kids.
(07:25):
And then forgiveness was anotherpretty close near tie on what we
wanted to talk about.
But we decided to go theforgiveness route and cause I
just think there's, there are alot there.
There is.
Ben (07:39):
I just loaded.
Yeah.
It's
Jim (07:40):
an interesting topic.
I think just because.
I don't know about you, but myperception of what forgiveness
is has changed a lot over theyears.
Yeah.
Um, and obviously it's rightnow.
I'm just kidding.
I could still be wrong, but Ifeel like where I am now with
forgiveness is a lot healthierplace than it was, you know,
(08:02):
when I was a teenager, let'ssay, yeah, for sure.
Ben (08:07):
I've grown up.
With this mentality that beforeI can forgive somebody, I need
to heal.
Like I need to make sure thatI'm okay.
Um, I've got to address all thedamage they inflicted upon me.
I need to do all the thingsbefore I can really forgive
(08:30):
somebody.
And what I've been finding inthe last year or so is that
that's not how it works.
With forgiveness.
I don't heal first so that I canforgive somebody.
It's flipped.
I forgive somebody so that I canexperience healing.
(08:54):
The healing doesn't come first.
The forgiveness is part of thathealing process.
And realizing that has beenpretty life changing for me.
Jim (09:05):
You're right, when you're talking about some of those big
things, that, I think, was mymentality, too, that, that I was
actually in the wrong, or thatit was somehow bad, that I
hadn't forgiven somebody.
Even if like I was activelybeing hurt or like the situation
(09:27):
hadn't totally resolved and it'slike, well, who cares about what
the other person is doing to youand how they've hurt you?
There's more focus and attentionput on me because I'm just not,
I haven't forgiven that personyet.
And so now I have to deal withthe trauma of whatever happened
and the guilt I'm getting fromother people and internalizing
(09:50):
because I haven't forgivensomebody.
And I'm just like, screw you.
Like I, you don't know what I'mgoing through and how dare you
like, but teenage me doesn'treally know how to stick up for
myself as well.
So instead it's just like, well,great.
I guess.
I just get hurt and I'm a badperson.
Awesome.
So I don't know, there was noself care.
(10:14):
There was no reflection, butit's just not in my nature to
bury feelings.
Sure.
I want to interact with them andfilter through them.
And I've learned over the yearsto do it better, but because I
couldn't bury them like I wasbeing told, then I just got the
guilt instead, because I can'tforgive this person because I
(10:36):
can't.
Move on from the hurt thathappened, right?
So I can't forgive them becauseI've been told I can't forgive
them if I'm still upset and Ihaven't You know, quote unquote,
forgotten about it.
Right.
So it's just like, cool.
So now I'm hurt and I apparentlyam a jackass for not forgiving
that person.
(10:57):
You know what I mean?
Like that's, that's what I grewup with.
Sure.
Turn
Ben (11:01):
the other cheek and just let it go.
And all of these truisms thatare painful.
I hate it.
So
Jim (11:09):
I shared that a little bit in our boundaries episode, you
know, where I talked about mywife and her situation with her
mom and a lot of this stuff thathappened when they were kids
that honestly I really didn'teven get into, uh, some of the
stuff that happened when she wasyounger that really traumatized
her in a lot of ways.
(11:30):
But it's not like it just wentaway.
It's not like she grew up andthen all of a sudden she has a
great relationship with her mom.
Like it's still very much a workin progress.
There's really very littlerelationship there.
Forgiveness doesn't just meanignoring the pain.
The hurt, the trauma, the abuse,whatever that's coming your way,
(11:54):
but there's still one particularfamily member that we get the,
Oh, like you have to love eachother and you just need to
forgive.
And I've even directly saidlike, that's not how this works.
Okay.
Like I get it and I am going toforgive, but I'm not, I'm not
going to take my boundariesdown.
I'm protecting myself.
Yes.
And you have to remember thisperson is the one who is doing
(12:18):
the bad thing.
Me having a boundary, I'm notthe one you should be talking
to.
Like if you so desperately wantto see this relationship
reconciled, then you go talk to.
Melissa's mom and, and confronther about her stuff instead of
telling me that I should put myboundary down.
And then I, I'm like, I, and Idon't want to talk about this
(12:41):
anymore if you can't understandthat.
Yes.
Is that wrong?
Ben (12:44):
I don't think that's wrong.
Just because you forgivesomebody doesn't mean that
they're magically dismissed fromthe natural consequences of
whatever happened.
Similarly, if somebody is reallypressing you to forgive somebody
else, first of all, that's nottheir place.
(13:06):
And so to clap back, I think isappropriate because they don't
even know what they're talkingabout unless they've walked in
your shoes a fair distance.
Jim (13:16):
Yeah.
Ben (13:18):
So I don't think it's inappropriate by any means, but
I think.
The thing about that perspectivethat you shared that strikes a
chord with me is the fact thatso often we think of forgiveness
as a one time thing, and it'slike a decision we make once,
and people want us to make thatdecision and just be done with
(13:39):
it, and why can't you justforgive them and move on?
Well, because it doesn't workthat way.
Ah, forgiveness?
Is a choice that you make everyday.
It's making a choice in yourhead intentionally saying I am
choosing not to hold thisoffense against that person
(14:00):
anymore.
Yes.
And it's not just a one anddone.
I forgive you.
So now we can be besties again.
Besties with testes.
Jim (14:12):
I mean, it's great if you can get to that point, but.
I think a lot of us are smartenough to realize when, at the
very least, it's going to be avery long time before there's
reconciliation and or you'repretty sure there never is going
to be reconciliation.
You can hold hope somewhere inthe back nethers of your mind,
(14:37):
but there's not going to bechange and that's when those
boundaries come up.
And that's when you recognize,you know what, I'm just going to
have to actively forgive thisperson.
And part of the boundaries isthat I don't want to spend any
more time resenting this personor hurting this person.
one of my favorite quotes andactually Joe Pellerito, friend
(15:00):
and friend of the show sharedthe quote as well.
Resentment is the poison youdrink to hurt the other person.
And to me, part of forgivenessis just stop drinking the
poison.
Don't dwell on the conversationthat you just had, and
especially, don't dwell on theconversation that you might
(15:23):
have.
Ben (15:24):
Oh, that's good.
Jim (15:26):
It is like something that a lot of us, we will have
conversations in our head withpeople that may never happen,
and then you stress out about aconversation that isn't actually
real.
Yeah, oh yeah.
You're hurting yourself, there'sno reason.
Ben (15:41):
No.
Instead of ruminating andinternally having that
conversation with just yourself,go have that talk.
I found that the conversationsthat I have inside of my head
typically go far worse than theyactually do with the person.
(16:01):
Like if I can get off that crazyanxiety cycle of, well, if I say
this and what are they going tosay?
And if I.
Own this.
Will they own their part?
Instead of analyzing everything,just go to the dang person and
say your piece.
Yeah,
Jim (16:18):
I, I agree for the most part, but let me tie in, another
mutual friend, Kayla Cunninghamand friend of the show, fellow
improv troop mate from back inthe day, she's actually a legit
counselor and deals with.
Stuff like this.
Her response to the show wasit's important to be and feel
(16:38):
safe before you forgive overemphasizing forgiveness before
safety can be a manipulationtactic and can lead to abusive
patterns.
So I guess in response to whatyou said, I think.
If it's a safe relationship,then that's an option.
But when it's a near guaranteethat you're just going to get
(17:01):
hurt or further abused, you'regoing to be tempted and may even
continuously fail at havingthose conversations.
Partly, honestly, I think, causeyou're just scared or you're
traumatized or whatever.
So I think that Kayla made areally good point that it is
important to feel safe first,and I don't.
(17:23):
I don't know.
I guess I'm going to say itanyways.
I don't think you owe anybodyyour forgiveness.
No, I don't think so.
I think it's something thathonestly, a lot of times you do
for yourself.
Ben (17:35):
Yes.
You owe it to yourself toforgive that person.
You don't owe it to that personto forgive them.
Jim (17:41):
Especially when it's abuse.
Yes.
And that's physical abuse andmental abuse.
They both spiritual abuse bothleave scars.
Absolutely.
Yeah so I really love what.
what she said.
Most people listening to thishave heard somebody say to them,
why can't you just love eachother or why can't you just
forgive your sister?
Why can't you just so often thatis a family member trying to
(18:06):
challenge you because you aretrying to buck an abusive
pattern that's been happening inthe family cycle.
And if you do that, then all ofa sudden, everybody around you
has to acknowledge that they hadplayed a part in that trauma and
in that abuse.
So you're going to get a lot ofresistance at first.
And the sucky part about that isyou're the one who is
(18:29):
traumatized and you're like thelast person that should be doing
it because to defend yourselfagainst family members.
It's just not fair.
Ben (18:37):
No, that's not for me.
When I think about forgiveness,I have a very, very picture
perfect, clear, Understanding ofa situation that was awful.
And that took me a long time toget to a point where I could
forgive.
I'm going to make a pretty boldstatement.
(18:58):
There was a season in my lifewhere I worked for an
organization that I Operated andfunctioned like a cult.
In that environment, I and otherstaff were belittled, demeaned,
torn down.
Mainly the men who worked forthis organization were just, we
had targets on our back.
Jim (19:19):
Yeah.
Ben (19:20):
And the way that we were treated by the leadership team
was atrocious.
And just the things that weresaid to me, things that were, I
Set about my state of brokennessafter the season of loss that I
endured that led us back toMichigan Just some of the
(19:42):
phrasing that was used of likeyou came back wounded with a
broken leg And now it's my jobto set your leg back in place
like no, it really isn't Iendured hours long conversations
in a windowless conference room.
Like it felt almost like aninterrogation at times.
(20:05):
There were just so many weirdthings that looking back as I
unpack that season of life withmy therapist and with close
friends, it's just like, thatwas pretty much a cult.
And when you're a part ofsomething like that, and it
becomes so closely attuned towho you are as a person, and you
(20:27):
find your value in the work thatyou're doing there, and then the
rug gets pulled out fromunderneath you, oof, it's
brutal.
I finally came to a point whereI realized that The environment
I was in was unhealthy.
The things being spoken over mylife and said about me in the
presence of other team members,even.
(20:50):
The way that I was belittled,then it was like leadership
opportunities and advancementopportunities and things like
that were carried on a stick,and the stick was used to really
beat the employees intosubmission, and, we'd have to go
without paychecks if donationswere down, but the leadership
(21:12):
still got their checks.
So many crazy, weird things thatwere not okay.
Jim (21:18):
For sure.
Ben (21:19):
And honestly, it really effed me up in a lot of ways,
going back to Kayla's point,like before you can forgive, you
need to be safe and comfortable.
And it took me.
The better part of 10 years toget to a point where I felt
(21:41):
safe, where I was able to workwith a therapist and undo all of
these things, these lies, these,these false identities that
were, put on me by thisorganization, it took a lot of
work to undo that stuff.
And finally, this year, I wasable to get to a point where I
(22:02):
genuinely forgave thisorganization and its leaders.
I can't tell you how muchfreedom that brought me.
Yeah.
And it was during that processthat I learned that whole
perspective of you don't healfirst and then forgive you
forgive so that you can heal.
(22:24):
I just picture it as like thisgiant,, wadded up ball of yarn
that I had to untangle with mytherapist over the course of
five years.
And finally, as we got thatstraightened out, I did feel
like I was in a position wherefor my full and complete
healing, the next step Was toforgive and to release so as
(22:46):
undoing the knots getting it allentangled so it didn't hold me
captive anymore and then justchoosing to set it down.
Yeah, and that's the work offorgiveness.
Now there are times where youbetter believe I want to pick up
that ball of string, especiallyas I hear about.
Friends from that time periodwho are now acknowledging some
(23:08):
of the pain that they carriedduring that season and how
difficult it was for them.
I have a couple of friends whojust can't even talk about that
season of life because it was sopainful in their process of
healing and, and forgiving theycan't even put words to it yet.
And so when I hear stuff likethat, it is so.
(23:31):
tempting to just pick that yarnup again and to get it all back
into a knot and get mad andupset and frustrated.
But I'm learning that I justneed to let it be.
Let it be.
I, I've done everything I needto do for myself to heal and to
grow and to move on.
And so if I want others toexperience that same piece, I
(23:53):
need to just let it be and trustthe process and not try to steer
things or make this organizationpay for the damage it's caused.
Just let it be.
Jim (24:07):
How long has it been since that experience?
Ben (24:10):
Ten years.
Ten years.
And when I left thatorganization I was alienated and
separated literally fromeverybody else on staff.
They took the staff to the otherend of the building, the
administrative wing, and left mein the program office to pack up
(24:32):
my things and leave.
And when I tried to go to saygoodbye to everybody, I was
stopped at the door and I wasn'table to do that.
That is just so brutal.
Yeah, and that's on the heels ofall of the losses that we
endured in Oregon.
I was broke when I came intothat place and I was far more
broken when I left.
Jim (24:55):
It's crazy just to hear that story and think how much
hurt and how little of you wasseen in that.
You guys can hear it a littlebit, but I'm here watching Ben
and I can see like how much thisbothers you.
Even 10 years later.
That was one of our questions ortopics from some of our
(25:15):
listeners too, is like, do youhave to forget?
Is that a qualification?
And not at all.
Resoundingly.
No.
I think that that's not good foryou to, to do at all.
And so you're still livingthrough this hurt just because
you forgave them.
It doesn't mean that.
It doesn't still bother you tothis day.
So, and Uh, I was reflecting onit too and thinking it's
(25:40):
especially hard the more of avested interest that person has
on your life or the more controlthat person has on your life or
the more that person is part ofyour worldview.
So when you think about it, likea spouse can hurt you more than
almost anybody else.
Mm hmm.
Society is another big one.
(26:02):
We all want to fit in.
It's amazing how when there's acultural shift, all of a sudden
now everybody pretty much thinksthe same thing, even though five
or six years ago, 40 percent ofthose people thought something
completely different.
And when it comes to religion, Ithink that's why so many people
(26:23):
are disillusioned with thechurch, because what the church
often gets wrong is they focuson trying to be something rather
than I don't know, likefollowing God or being Christ
like it becomes almost like thissocial club where you have to be
(26:45):
a certain way and act a certainway.
and so I think for you, correctme if I'm wrong, but I think
that's why it hurts so muchbecause this wasn't just your
first job at like the printershop or whatever.
This was a ministry for you.
So when that was taken from you,you weren't just losing a job.
You felt like you were being.
(27:05):
Alienated.
And like, you were like thisbroken, hopeless case that just
needed to be tossed out and youcouldn't even say goodbye to
your friends.
When would that ever happen inany other professional setting?
That's infuriating to me.
Ben (27:20):
It absolutely is.
And the other thing that makesthis all very difficult and
convoluted is the fact that theexecutive director wasn't just
somebody I met when I moved backto Michigan.
Oh no, we had history.
This is a person who helped meget my start in ministry at a
(27:41):
very young age as a teenager.
In the context that I was as ateenager and not really having a
solid understanding of.
boundaries and what'sappropriate and what's not.
I just ate up everything thisperson had to say about me and
believe it as gospel truth.
That is the nature of therelationship.
(28:04):
When I took the job, I reallydid see this person as like a
hero of mine.
And so to go from hero to zeroreally was very difficult.
There were so many.
Talons, so many claws that werejust deep into my life that I
(28:27):
had to really find a way to getthose claws out and let those
scars heal.
It works the other way too.
I mean, as a general rule, ahundred percent, you really
can't fully heal until youforgive.
I agree with that.
Not arguing that for a moment,but I think the flip side can be
(28:47):
true in certain circumstanceswhere like Kayla's talking
about, you really have toconfront and address the abuse
before you can truly forgive.
Jim (29:01):
I agree, but I also can't help but wonder, like, how do
you forgive somebody who's donesomething truly horrifying, you
know, like your, your situationwas terrible, but I'm thinking,
like, how do you forgivesomebody who was knowingly got
(29:23):
into their car drunk and T bonedyour kid and killed them.
How, how do you forgive thatperson?
How do you forgive the person?
I, I can barely even say it, butlike, if you're a sexual abuse
(29:44):
survivor, how do you forgivesomebody who's done something
that terrible?
Do you have to forgive them?
Like, I, I don't know if I knowthe answer to that.
Like, what, what do you do?
Cause I don't disagree thatthere's healing on the end of
forgiveness, but I don't know ifsomebody kills my kid.
(30:09):
I want to hang on to thatbitterness.
For the rest of my life.
Like I, that would be so hardfor me, but I agree.
I think it's like, um, thatquote from Nelson Mandela, if
you're familiar with him,important dude, and spent like
30 years in prison, justbasically because he wanted
(30:31):
black people to have rights inSouth Africa.
And he said.
After getting out of prison, hesaid, As I walked out the door
toward the gate that would leadto my freedom, I knew if I
didn't leave my bitterness andhatred behind, I'd still be in
prison.
Man, and this dude, like he'sbeen through some stuff that
(30:52):
we'll never know or experience.
So I, I agree, I just, to someextent, I just say it because I
can viscerally feel like howterrible it would be to go
through an experience like that.
But that goes back to thatpoint.
Like at some point or another,you have to forgive.
And move on.
That doesn't like morally givethat person a pass.
(31:15):
That forgiveness is foryourself.
Yes.
That you are allowing yourselfto move on from that situation
so that your life isn't takenover by bitterness.
Yes.
Otherwise you might as well.
Just be on that road yourselfand, and stay there.
Yeah.
You let that situation rob youof the rest of your life.
Ben (31:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And going back to the thought offorgiving an abuser, honestly,
it's hard for me to use thatword.
I think it's a pride thing.
This leader of the organizationwas very much abusive in many
ways.
And here's the thing, though.
I don't have to go to thatperson and say, I forgive you.
(31:58):
No.
No.
I, I'm not going to.
That is a boundary that I haveset.
I have committed myself to nottalk to this person.
I'm also not going to name dropthis person.
The organization name.
And there's a reason for thatbecause to me, that's what
forgiveness is.
It's, I'm not going to leavethis person on the hook and I'm
(32:20):
not going to try to demean themor defame them or their
organization.
Now, if I have a friend thatsays they want to go work there,
I'll certainly be like, Hmm, youmight want to think on that
really hard, but I'm not goingto tell them not to.
All that to say, I'm not goingto go to this individual to tell
them that I forgive them.
(32:41):
Yeah.
Because it's not for them.
Sure.
It's not.
It's for me.
And I am at a place where I cansay I am choosing to lay that
down as nasty and painful,isolating It was terrible to
have my last day be marked bybeing separated and ostracized.
(33:05):
That was painful, but for aspainful as it was I've come to a
point where I can remove thatthorn from my skin.
I don't have to keep pressingthat thorn to know it's there.
Yeah, I can just let it be.
Jim (33:19):
I think important point of clarification for you.
Part of that forgiveness was notimpugning the organization or
the name.
For plenty of people out there,there is absolutely nothing
wrong with.
And even we would encourage youspeaking out, especially when
it's somebody who serially hasdone horrible things and will
(33:41):
continue to do so you, youspeaking out publicly about
that, we applaud you for doingthat.
That is not what we're trying tosay here for Ben specific
situation.
Part of his forgiveness was.
It's not my place or my job, butyeah, if somebody is going to
hurt other people along the wayand you feel called to do that,
(34:04):
there is nothing wrong withcalling those people out.
Ben (34:07):
Not at all.
Yeah.
And that's something that I'vegiven so much thought to
because, well, I don't know howelse to say it other than
Sometimes I can be obsessed withdrama.
I like a good story.
There have been times where Isat down and opened up the news
tip pages on the local newsstations, just wanting to air
(34:30):
all of my concerns with thisplace and like, have them do an
investigative review.
And I didn't do that because foras awful as my experience was,
and It was awful for many of myfriends.
People are naturally findingthat out about this
organization.
It's not hinging on me going outand raising the battle cry.
(34:54):
Like you can only keep a facadeup for so long and yeah, this
organization's facade has been,I would say crumbling on its
own.
They didn't need my help to makethat go any faster.
That's what it is for me.
It's a conscious choice,
Jim (35:10):
Sure You had a situation in your life where another
organization did something wrongand you did publicly say, Hey,
this organization really screwedup other people.
You ought to be real careful.
And you sought out some sort ofresponse against that
organization because in thatcase.
(35:31):
Someone really could have been.
Ben (35:34):
Yeah.
there was a daycare facilitythat left my son on a playground
at his school unattended forhours without realizing that
they forgot to pick them up.
Okay.
Now we're talking about.
Neglect of a child.
That's a pretty big deal.
Right.
Jim (35:50):
Forgiveness isn't just like, well, everybody makes
mistakes and then you don't sayanything.
And
Ben (35:55):
you can't run a childcare center and do that kind of
thing.
And I only made a big deal outof it because I went online and
I checked the records, I checkedthe complaints and I was
certainly not the only one.
There were quite a few.
I did go to the news.
(36:15):
I mean, my roommate from collegewas executive producer at the
time, so he got his best peopleon it, and ultimately that
daycare center closed down.
Jim (36:26):
It was a habitual thing that was happening.
So that's my point.
Like forgiveness does not meanforgetting.
In fact, sometimes you activelyhave to fight against the thing
that is causing the issue thattraumatized you.
Yeah, absolutely.
Sometimes the right thing to do.
It was just a you situation.
You got hurt.
And you're only going to end upgetting hurt more by trying to
(36:49):
seek justice.
Sometimes the best thing to dois let it go, but sometimes you
got to pick up your sword and goit into the fight.
Yeah, absolutely.
Ben (36:59):
what's your criteria for determining that?
Like, when do you know that youneed to go into the fight and.
Have a battle.
When do you know that you justneed to let it go?
Like Elsa?
Jim (37:12):
When I see something that is damaging to a family system
or, or that could cause furtherharm, I don't know.
Your situation with theorganization, what I have gone
to the news or something,probably not because that's an
instance that I'm like, you knowwhat?
I just, I feel so hurt.
I don't have the energy or thedesire to fight an entire
(37:35):
organization, right?
I'm going to move on, but I havethis big justice component to me
that when I feel, especiallywhen somebody either through
extreme laziness, where maybe Ishould explain this one.
When I worked at the college,there was a situation where I'm
(37:56):
living on campus, right?
And the guy who ran campusservices at the time, it was
very, the best way to describeit is like the worst cook ever
where like they start the greenbeans and then the green beans
get done and then you start themashed potatoes and then the
mashed potatoes are done andthen you put in the roast beef
(38:16):
and four hours later the roastbeef is done but your green
beans have been boiled to snotand your mashed potatoes are
freezing cold because it wasn'tlike, Hey, what's the timing of
this?
Right?
That was the way this guy ran.
Campus services and it justterrible at project management.
Absolutely terrible.
(38:38):
in my opinion, the dude justdidn't care.
He was just living it out untilretirement, which when you're
working on a campus, a lot oftimes, is it that big of a deal
if it's a professor's classroomor this or that, but the problem
is it's my house, right?
So when they're.
Is an issue that is causing, youknow, like a water to actively
(39:03):
leak into my apartment.
Now, I don't just get to go homesomewhere else.
This is my home.
This isn't my classroom.
Yeah.
I have to sleep in it.
And several times things likethis would happen.
And I'd be like, what are youdoing about it?
And basically.
At that point in my life, I wasnot yet the quite as loud spoken
(39:24):
as I am about this kind ofstuff, but it got to a point
where it's just like, seriously,what are you doing?
It's been three months and we'restill sitting here, right?
I've been sleeping at mysupervisor's house.
Oh man, because I can't even,Sleep in my own apartment at the
time.
And I was so mad at this guybecause he just didn't care.
And when I look at theprocesses, I'm like, you could
(39:48):
have fixed this problem twomonths ago.
You just wanted, you know, thepotatoes to get done first.
And I'm like, screw you do likeyou are.
Actively ruining my life and youare just whistling around
campus.
And I was so mad and so bitterat this guy that it ruined my
relationship with everybody elseat campus services who honestly
(40:11):
really had nothing to do withit.
But then eventually they kind ofgot looped into it because I was
into the drama.
You know, like I got so mad thatI became like.
An enemy, because I was tryingto seek justice, but
unfortunately I didn't haveanybody in a position of
authority that was backing meup.
Sure.
(40:31):
It sounds like a silly thing,but think about it.
Like you're in your house andyou're not safe.
You're not secure.
Talk about Maslow's hierarchy ofneeds.
I was down to the foundation andI was just raw.
And it happened over the courseof years that I was just so fed
up.
And so it's like, how do youforgive this dude when.
(40:53):
He isn't changing anything.
And in fact, in oneconversation, I said, you know,
I'm, I'm sorry for the way Ireacted and I just wanted to let
you know, like, that wasn'tokay.
Right.
And his response was like,everybody makes mistakes, no
culpability or apologies on hispart whatsoever.
(41:13):
And I was just like, dude, in myhead.
But at that point I was like,okay, like this guy is so
clueless.
All I'm doing is hurting myselfby being this mad and it's not
worth it.
I'm not going to say that Iwouldn't still be mad if
somebody was disrupting my lifethat heavily, but through that
(41:34):
situation, I think it helps shedlight to the question that you
asked ages ago about, how do youmake that decision?
If you find yourself justshaking your fist at clouds and
the person isn't even there andyou're not even actively doing
anything to remedy thesituation, what's the point you
(41:55):
have to, you have to askyourself, like, why am I mad?
Is me being mad, fixinganything, am I really, am I
helping the situation or am Ionly hurting myself?
Sure.
If you can channel that rageinto justice and fixing a real
issue, then go for it, but Ididn't have to be as angry.
(42:20):
As I was, and I think if I wouldhave, I don't want to be too
harsh on young Jim because ittruly was a life disrupting
thing.
Right.
I just shared a touch of whathappened.
Ben (42:35):
And old Jim needs to forgive young old
Jim (42:37):
Jim needs to forgive.
Yeah, exactly.
Um, but in that situation, if Iwould have been more level
headed and Try to find the rightpeople to talk to you and
outline my complaints withoutjust Calling into This person,
cause this person's, you know,seven levels ahead of me, like
(42:58):
me throwing accusations, isn'tdoing any good.
So I think it just has to comedown to like, what's the point
of you trying to do somethingabout it?
Uh, cause I don't think anybodyshould.
I feel it's necessary to be theperson that tumbles the big
organization who's hurting a lotof people.
(43:20):
I applaud you and I think you'rebrave for doing that.
But I think ultimately you haveto decide what is best and most
safe for you.
And I.
I don't know if you can be toohard on yourself because not
everybody is the person who canstand in front of the tank
because they think that this isa horrible situation.
(43:43):
Sometimes you're just trying tosurvive.
And if you're that person, thelast thing I want you doing is
beating yourself up because youdidn't do something about it to
stop it from happening tosomebody else.
Good point.
Ben (43:57):
Yeah, when you were talking about just that blood boiling
sensation of that frustrationlevel with the campus services
guy, I think that's one prettygood litmus test of your need to
forgive somebody like if Justthe mention of somebody's name
(44:18):
is enough to raise yourheartbeat and get your blood
pressure going.
It's probably a good indicatorthat there's something there
that you need to forgive and tolet go.
Not for their benefit at all.
It's not even about them, butfor your benefit, the mention of
somebody's name or the thoughtof it.
Thought of somebody should notbe enough to trigger that kind
(44:41):
of a stress response in yourbody.
And so if you have those peoplethat just make your skin crawl
when you're around them, whenyou hear their name, maybe
that's an indicator for you toforgive and to enjoy the freedom
from that, uh, sense of doom andgloom at the thought of their
(45:04):
name.
Jim (45:05):
And honestly, you might, if you felt any amount of guilt
from what Ben just said, knowthat like, that's not what he
was trying to say.
That's not what we're trying tosay.
That forgiveness again is foryou.
And you might need counseling tohelp you get to that point,
because especially if you're avictim of abuse, we're not ones
who are going to indicate thetimeline for which you're going
(45:29):
to be.
You no longer shudder at the,that name, but that's when you
know that, I guess maybe say itthis way, that you can forgive
the person, but it doesn't meanyou're automatically going to
heal.
Right.
That's just step one.
And if it's bad enough, it mightalways hurt, but I can't imagine
(45:50):
it's going to be worse byforgiving somebody.
Yes.
Yeah.
Ben (45:54):
Yup.
So.
With all of your stories aboutcampus services, I've got to be
honest for a second.
There was one time during JTerm, my senior year.
Most of the school is off forholiday break.
I needed to check my mail and Ihad a slip in there saying that
(46:14):
I had a package and in order topick up the package, I had to
walk across the building.
Well, on this particular day,they were resurfacing the wood
floor in the The atrium of thequorum and it's closed off and
Ben, for some reason, thoughtthat, he was entitled to get his
(46:35):
package come hell or resurfaced.
Flooring.
I just walked on that stickyresurfaced wood floor to go to
the mailroom to get my packageAnd.
As soon as I get to the mailroom, I noticed that my shoes
are super sticky.
I just made a big mess out ofthis project.
(46:58):
And here comes this campusservice guy.
He was pretty upset and for goodreason, didn't think too much of
it until one of the guys whoworked in student development
calls me into his office.
As a college student.
I didn't see it as a big deal,but apparently it was a very
expensive project.
(47:18):
So I had to.
Be the one to go and apologizeand ask for forgiveness.
My experience with campusservices opposite of yours, I
was the one that caused thedamage.
Have you forgiven them?
Jim (47:36):
Yeah, I, I was mad for a long time, but it's not, it's
more of a story that I share incontext like this.
Ben (47:45):
Bitterness is a very hard thing to shake.
And I don't know that.
Forgiveness and bitterness cancoexist and if they can it's a
very tenuous challengingRelationship that they have with
each other but in my experiencethe things that have made me
(48:07):
bitter bar none It's the thepeople that have done me wrong.
The things that really get meupset and bitter are the things
that other people did to me andYou just got to come to a point
where you don't dismiss whatthey've done to you But you're
also not bitter about it andthat's a tough transition to
(48:30):
make Yeah,
Jim (48:32):
I think kind of the key point that we hit In this
episode is one, just don't beatyourself up so much when it's a
really traumatic situation.
Like you survived that situationand with as tough as it is,
sometimes all you can do issurvive.
So sometimes you just need toforgive yourself.
And like you were talking aboutold Jim, new Jim, I look back
(48:55):
at.
At what he went through in mylife, not these specific
circumstances, but all of it.
And I think like, man, I was sostrong to be able to make it
through some of that stuff.
So I made mistakes along theway.
Absolutely.
But I also endured a lot ofhardships.
So I, sometimes you got to giveyour old self credit instead of
(49:17):
just beating yourself up andsaying like, man, I was such an
idiot.
Or if I only would have donethat.
One, you didn't have the powerof hindsight like you do now.
And two, you were in the thickof that situation, right?
That it's easy to lose contextfor that.
So that's huge.
And I think the other big pointthat we're trying to make here
is that forgiveness is reallyfor yourself to be able to move
(49:40):
on from whatever hurt that is,where you stop drinking that
poison.
Yes.
That's really only hurtingyourself.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
In a lot of those situations,the person hasn't thought about
you for years.
So why do you continue to punishyourself?
Yeah.
Ben (49:59):
That's good.
Jim (49:59):
With something that happened a decade ago.
Right.
But again, if you're a personwho's gone through a truly
traumatic thing, you don't haveto feel guilty about that
either.
No, not at all.
Ben (50:11):
There's something to be said for survival.
And when you are in a season oflife where all you can do is.
Is survive and just keep puttingone foot in front of the other
every day, day after day, that'sall you can do.
Don't beat yourself up for that.
I mean, that's huge that you'reable to even take those steps
(50:35):
But in the same breath, Igenuinely do not believe that we
were only created just tosurvive Yeah, I think that all
humans have the capacity tothrive But you can only get to
that point of thriving bysurviving And so, don't beat
(50:57):
yourself up for what worked foryou in that season of survival.
I mean, honestly, there weredays where my anger and
frustration towards this personwho caused me harm is what
motivated me to move forward.
So, don't feel like You know,you have to just suddenly clear
(51:17):
the slate of what somebody'sdone to you by no means, but
instead of just clearing theslate, maybe just taking a step
back and seeing it for what itis and seeing that what you're
doing now is just surviving, butthen being able to take a couple
steps back further and see,okay, Well, how can I shift out
(51:39):
of this mode and into thrivemode?
But it's all a process.
And that process looks differentfor each person and in each
circumstance, there's not like aneat flow chart that we can
point you to, but just beauthentic and be true to
yourself as you go.
Jim (51:59):
I guess my, my final thought, cause we didn't really
touch on this is if you are theperson that you need to forgive,
that honestly could be probablya whole different episode, but
it's like
Ben (52:12):
part two right there,
Jim (52:14):
but you heard us say forgiveness is for yourself.
If you did, if you were the onewho did something terrible, you
have to be able to forgiveyourself and maybe the lie
you've been telling yourself isthat if you forgive yourself,
it's somehow excusing yourbehavior.
That's not what it means.
(52:34):
It means you are allowingyourself to move on and grow.
You are forgiving yourself forwhat you did in the past to
allow yourself to be a betterperson today.
We have all made Big mistakes inour life that we wish we could
take back.
Ben (52:51):
Yes,
Jim (52:51):
this is your cue.
Today is the day that you needto forgive yourself or seek
counseling so that you can getto a point that you can forgive
yourself.
If you're at that point whereyou recognize what you did was
wrong and you want to be abetter person, you can forgive
yourself.
Ben (53:10):
Yes.
Yeah.
Back during this season where Iworked at this organization,
because of the mental state Iwas in, because of how awful the
season was, I was not the dadthat I could have been or should
have been to my son in thatseason.
And recently he's thrown that inmy face.
And that's the hardest thing, toforgive myself and to give
(53:33):
myself grace and to acknowledgethat despite how awful it was in
that season, I really genuinelydid the best I could with my
kid.
Was it perfect?
By no means.
Does he remember some of thechallenges and difficulties of
having a depressed dad?
Yeah, he talks about all thetime he spent reading books and
(53:55):
whatever else.
Unfortunately, that experiencenegatively impacted him.
And so now I need to do the workof forgiving myself.
And just saying, I did the bestI could in that moment.
You did your best.
And you just gotta forgiveyourself and, and don't stay
there.
Jim (54:15):
You've heard us say that before.
All you can do is your best.
Sometimes you gotta forgiveyourself when it wasn't enough.
Ben (54:20):
And there are gonna be times where it's not.
Just gotta let it go.
Jim (54:25):
Hey, thanks so much for listening to our episode today.
We're so glad that you couldjoin us.
What a heavy topic, but a goodtopic.
I don't know.
There was some catharsis for meto be able to dig through some
of this stuff.
I feel like in some of ourearliest episodes, it was almost
traumatizing to talk, but whenit's couched in a framework of
(54:46):
forgiveness.
I don't know.
It almost feels a little bitmore like taking a weight off of
my shoulders.
Yes.
Ben (54:53):
There is so much freedom in forgiveness.
Yeah.
Like it's light work in that asyou forgive, the burden just
minimizes.
So good.
Well, thank you again for beingwith us on today's episode.
So glad that you could join us.
Jim (55:10):
Peace out.
It's been so long since we met Iforgot our a and remember And
remember real men hug, but theyalso forgive
Ben (55:20):
real men hug and they also Allow themselves time to forgive
Jim (55:26):
real men hug But they also hold on to bitterness for years
and years and nurture it like atiny little seedling Wait, wait,
no No, don't do that.
Don't nurture the bitterness.
Maybe I did that.
A little too much.
Ben (55:46):
Real men hug, but they don't walk across freshly laid
laminate flooring.
Jim (55:52):
Ooh, I honestly can't believe that you thought that
that was an okay thing to do.
Ben (55:58):
I know, I know.
Jim (55:59):
What a jerk, like, oh I gotta get my package.
Ben (56:03):
Like, I don't wanna walk outside and go around the
building, it's too cold forthat.
So I'm just gonna walk rightacross.
Jim (56:10):
Real man hug, hurdy dur.
Hurdy durdy dur.
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