June 16, 2024 • 51 mins
In this special Father's Day episode of "Real Men Hug," hosts Ben and Jim dive into the complexities and joys of fatherhood with a mix of humor and heartfelt conversations. They kick off with light-hearted banter about dad jokes and pool mishaps, setting a fun tone for the episode.
The conversation transitions into a deeper discussion about the most meaningful Father's Day gifts they've received, highlighting the importance of thoughtful gestures from their children. Ben shares a touching story about a gift from his daughter that symbolized their bond and journey together, while Jim reminisces about a memorable trip with his wife, emphasizing the value of experiences over material gifts.
The episode also addresses the challenging aspects of Father's Day for those with complicated relationships with their own fathers or their children. Both hosts reflect on their personal experiences, acknowledging the struggles and regrets that can come with fatherhood. They emphasize the importance of giving oneself grace and recognizing the efforts made, even in difficult times.
Ben opens up about his journey through depression and its impact on his relationship with his son, highlighting the significance of seeking help and not letting past struggles define one's parenting. Jim supports this by discussing the non-linear nature of parenting and the importance of being present and forgiving oneself for past mistakes.
Throughout the episode, they encourage listeners to celebrate the progress they've made and the positive impact they have on their children's lives, regardless of the challenges faced. The hosts conclude with a motivational message, reminding fathers to continue providing, nurturing, and guiding their children, and to take pride in their efforts.
Join Ben and Jim as they navigate the highs and lows of fatherhood, offering support, humor, and encouragement to all the dads out there.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ben (00:01):
Welcome to real men hug a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Ben and I'm Jim welcome
Jim (00:12):
Come on in the water's warm.
Ben (00:14):
Oh, man.
Did you pee in it?
Jim (00:17):
No, I Know a lot of people say they do that.
I Always thought that was superweird.
Yeah.
I would have had to go real badfor that to be something that I
was okay with.
Cause you're still peeing inyour pants.
I don't care if there's waterthere or not, but there's
chlorine that somehow cleans itup.
I don't know.
(00:37):
God, no.
Yeah.
Listen, I'm not here to judge,but I judge you if you pee in
pools.
If you are over six and you peein a pool, I judge you.
Ben (00:51):
Welcome to our o.
Well, yeah.
Notice there's no pee in it.
No pee.
Let's keep it that way, that
Jim (00:57):
I don't, how on earth did we start talking about being in
a pool?
Ben (01:01):
You said something about jump in the water's warm.
Jim (01:03):
Oh, that's right.
Oh my gosh.
That's a great way to start ourfather's day episode with, with
a pun about being in the pooldad jokes about pee this entire
episode.
We dedicate to dad jokes.
So
Ben (01:16):
there will be a few
Jim (01:17):
come on in the water is warm, but only by Ben.
Ben (01:24):
About that
Jim (01:25):
about that did you pee in pools
Ben (01:28):
not in pools?
I wouldn't like If we were atthe cottage and the bathroom was
a long walk away You just peeyour pants pee in the water
there, but not in wait pee inwhat water And the, like the
lake or whatever.
Oh,
Jim (01:43):
I thought I was envisioning you in a cabin and being like,
ah, the bathrooms are reallylong ways away.
What the heck is wrong with you?
First, you're walking throughlike the sticky resin in our
last episode.
And now you're peeing on floors.
Something against floors forsome reason.
Wow.
Wow.
(02:03):
So happy father's day,everybody.
Ben (02:05):
It's your day dads.
Jim (02:07):
It's your day.
Take advantage.
Ben (02:10):
What did the devil get back from the photo lab?
Jim (02:14):
Oh my gosh, I, what?
Ben (02:17):
Prints of darkness.
Jim (02:24):
Okay, so half of our listeners are going to have no
clue what you're talking about.
And I'd say a good like 49percent of the other ones are
groaning right now.
Yes.
Ben (02:36):
What's big, green and fuzzy and if it falls out of a tree,
it kills you?
A pool table.
Jim (02:46):
I mean, I guess that would probably kill you.
It's pretty fuzzy too.
It depends on how dense the soilwas underneath you.
I feel like possible.
If it was really loamy soil, youmight be, and like how far up in
the tree is it?
I mean.
Okay.
So if, uh, if it was that lowme, then you would just drown
(03:08):
after it's, after you getsmacked by a several hundred
pound table, these are thoughtsto ponder folks on his father's
day.
So my gosh, I, I have reallyenjoyed.
Father's Day.
I have been a father myself nowfor a 12 years plus you've been
a father for umpteen years.
Ben (03:30):
Fifteen we'll call it.
Yeah.
Fifteen ish.
Yeah.
Jim (03:33):
It's a blast, man.
That's one word for it.
So not It's not always been ablast, but we'll get into that
later.
Ben (03:41):
Yeah.
And fatherhood for you looksprobably different than what
fatherhood looks like for me.
Jim (03:46):
It's true, because I'm more awesome at it than you are.
Ben (03:51):
Alright, I'm out.
Peace.
Jim (03:54):
Yep.
Buckle in, cause Ben's peeing onthe floor.
Guys, best episode ever.
You are in for such a treat.
Speaking of treats, Segway,what's the best father's day
gift that you've ever received?
What's the loot.
Ben (04:14):
Well, I don't want to portray that.
I have favorites among my kids.
However, I do have a favoritegift that just happened to come
from my daughter.
Jim (04:24):
You know, when you couch it that way, everybody knows now
that yeah, well, it's yourfavorite
Ben (04:31):
in seasons of life.
Definitely.
But my daughter one year went toMeyer and picked out all kinds
of things that reminded her ofme.
Jim (04:43):
Of her own volition.
Ben (04:44):
Yeah.
Jim (04:45):
That's the gift, right?
Yes.
Yeah.
That's so cool.
She was amazing.
Wow.
Ben (04:51):
Or things that reminded her of us and the time that we had
spent together and going back towhen she first came to our
house.
One of the things that we keptin the house at the time were
those snack pack puddings.
Uh, that you see on Tommy Boy, Ithink it is.
Or no, not Tommy Boy.
It would be Happy Gilmore.
(05:11):
I'm so bad at movies, I shouldneed to try.
Nope.
Jim (05:14):
So anyways, it was the Sandra Bullock movie.
Uh, with Chris Rock.
And And Sinbad too.
They were all in it.
They were all in it.
And mine had been dreaming.
Ben (05:26):
But at any rate, she got me the snack pack pudding because
it reminded her of her and Isitting at the table in the
early days of her joining ourfamily and having pudding
together.
And she had sticky notes onevery item she picked out
explaining why it meantsomething to her or why it
reminded her of me.
(05:47):
And it was just the sweetestthing, like this nice plastic
container full of objects thathave a lot of meaning to them.
Jim (05:56):
So you had a few years there, if I remember correctly,
where it was not quite so hunkydory with you and the daughter.
Mm-Hmm.
Um, to remind our listeners, hisdaughter adopted, she was eight.
Okay.
When she joined their family,she was eight, was a rough
situation.
(06:17):
How many years later was this?
to share.
Ben (06:22):
This was last year.
So it was six years in themaking.
Wow.
Yeah.
Jim (06:25):
A thousand times more impactful that you went from
little girl to now your teenagerwho, oh my gosh, how.
It's amazing.
That's so cool.
Yes.
Oh man.
I'm, I gotta be honest.
I love my boys, but I'm a littlebit jealous of the father
(06:46):
daughter relationship.
So that's so cool that, that shedid that.
I love that.
Ben (06:52):
Yeah.
Pretty great.
That's awesome.
How about you?
Jim (06:56):
You know, my kids have done stuff too, and a lot of times it
means a lot that they spent timedoing something.
But especially my oldest, hereally is a thoughtful kid.
Mm-Hmm.
So he honestly does a prettygood job.
And even my youngest, like wehave a special relationship and
he's just a hilarious kid.
(07:17):
He might like take a minute todo the thing for Father's Day,
but I just.
Always love the stuff from thekids, but honestly, probably one
of the best Father's Dayexperiences.
Does this make me a bad dad thathad nothing to do with my kids
at all?
Father's Day, I went I Listen, Iknow a lot of moms out there are
(07:40):
gonna resonate with you're like,you know what for Mother's Day I
want no one to touch me.
I want to go somewhere by myselfMy best father's day experience
that I can remember is going toTraverse City with the wife and
we did a wine tour in the Lelandall peninsula.
(08:00):
Just getting a chance to getaway.
Unplug and, try some differentwines and experience that sort
of weekend.
I love hard ciders.
It's funny.
I'm talking about a wine tour.
I'm honestly.
I'm not a big drinker.
I very rarely drink, but as anexperience over a weekend, it
(08:21):
was fun to do.
And when I do drink an awful lotof times, it's like a hard cider
or something like that.
And one of the places it waslike, you basically, you could
buy a hard cider for the sameprice as you normally would.
But it came with a signaturetall glass that had An etching
of that particular winery on it.
(08:43):
And anytime I drink hard cider,I drink it out of that cup and
it reminds me of our trip.
And I really, it was just somuch fun.
And for me, especially in theearly days of fatherhood,
because it was so difficult, Ithink the enjoyment of father's
day was like, Jim, I appreciateyou as a father.
(09:04):
And so today you don't have todo any father related stuff.
Oh, that's great.
And my wife is pretty thoughtfulat getting me gifts.
She has gotten me some like funshirts that have said like, I
love you 3000 from the Avengersmovie or whatever it is.
And best dad in the galaxy,
Ben (09:23):
Sandra Bullock is in, right?
Jim (09:24):
Yes.
Sandra Bullock.
She steps through a gate thatDr.
Strange had created.
Ben (09:31):
And.
I think the rock was in that onetoo.
Jim (09:34):
I mean, the rock is kind of in everything, so she's really
good at that stuff.
She got me a pair of socks thathave my kid's faces on it.
That's awesome.
They, I love those socks everyonce in a while.
I'll just bust them on.
And I love it when people noticethe socks that are those your
kids?
I'm like, yeah, they are.
And she did the research too,because some places don't
(09:55):
account for the fact that Socksstretch.
And so the pictures look likethese deformed monsters.
Not so with these socks.
I like novelty shirts andnovelty socks and yeah,
compression socks.
We're getting old then we gotcompression socks knocking on
the door.
Can you hear it?
Ben (10:15):
Probably help with my gout,
Jim (10:18):
oh my gosh, I don't even know what that is, I just know
it's something that you getbecause you're old.
Ben (10:22):
Yep, pretty much.
Jim (10:23):
You're like, I'm old.
Listen, we can relate here.
Ben (10:28):
For as awesome as those gifts are, whether they are the
tailor made gift box ofmemories, or socks with your
kids faces on them, those arepretty great.
But the reality is, Father's daycan be hard too.
Even if you're the best dad inthe world, or if you had the
(10:49):
best dad in the world,fatherhood is tricky.
And I know for me, myrelationship with my dad over
the years has, had its ups anddowns and.
If I'm honest, my ability to bethe dad that my kids needed in
(11:09):
certain seasons of life waslacking and father's day can
sometimes be a reminder that Iam far from perfect.
It's a reminder of those hardyears where.
It was a struggle to evencelebrate the day for so many
different reasons.
In my context, my wife and I areadoptive parents.
(11:34):
Father's day and mother's day isan entirely different thing for
adopted kids.
It is loaded.
I mean, here you are living withthis family that did not.
Give birth to you.
You've been with them for only apart of your life.
My kids have or had a mom anddad and they're not with them
(11:58):
anymore.
And so on mother's day andfather's day adopted kids,
especially feel this tension of,I feel like I should be loyal to
my dad.
Because it's Father's Day, butwhat about this dude that I've
never even really met that'sactually my biological dad?
(12:19):
It's easy to kind of give thatanswer of, well, you are their
dad, you adopted them, andthat's the role you play, and
that's true, but you cannotdiminish science.
Blood connections, like thatstuff.
Sure.
Matters, and so to be separatedfrom your blood on Father's Day,
It can be tricky.
Jim (12:41):
Yeah.
For sure.
Different.
Maybe you're not even listeningto this episode because it's
just too hard and I don't blameyou.
But if you are here and you havea complicated relationship,
first of all, we both, I think,have complicated relationships
with our dad.
You have kids who have acomplicated relationship with
their dad.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And.
My wife literally doesn't evenknow who her dad is.
(13:05):
For the first five or six yearsof our marriage, we didn't have
kids.
Every father's day, it was likethis weird situation where she
had this complicated weight thatcame with father's day.
And really for her, it's beenthis redemptive process now that
(13:26):
I'm a that it's kind of likereclaimed.
Father's day for her.
It's a big deal.
It used to be traditionallyeverybody, if you were a woman,
you would change your name whenyou got married.
Nowadays, that's a lot lesscommon than it used to be.
And I think it just dependssituationally.
(13:46):
But for Melissa.
She was like my last name meansnothing It wasn't even her mom's
name at the time because she hadbeen remarried Before and so it
just was the name that her momhappened to have right at the
time that she was born And soshe was like, give me your last
(14:09):
name.
I, I couldn't possibly care lessabout the old name.
I want to switch the name.
And it's been a similarsituation with father's day.
Before that day meant nothing oreven had negative implications.
And now.
It's something totally differentbecause she's gotten to see me
(14:30):
as a dad and even in mysituation when I was little, my
parents were going through amessy divorce and so there
wasn't like time or energy orlet's be honest to normalcy in
our household.
I literally don't remember.
A father's day happening.
(14:52):
Really?
No, I know.
I know my mom is listening tothis and saying, you don't
remember?
No, mom.
I don't remember.
I'm not saying you didn't dosomething for dad.
I just don't remember as a kid,I'm sure we did stuff, but it
just wasn't impactful becausethat was such a, a messy
situation that.
(15:13):
If I don't know father's day wasjust another day on the calendar
to me, like to this day, it'snot like you all of a sudden
things get better.
I work with my dad now, sothat's helped our relationship a
lot, but I'm not going to getinto all of everything, but it
has, it's just been complicatedover the decades of my life.
(15:35):
Father's day is weird for me.
It's pretty cool that I can jumpin and be dad, but for me, that
wasn't modeled necessarily superwell when I was a kid.
Both Melissa and I parent inlarge part out of the absence of
our own childhood.
Ben (15:53):
Yeah, that's powerful.
Jim (15:57):
If you are one of those people that father's day is kind
of weird for you, you cancelebrate some of the other
people in your life or it's okayjust to take the day and I don't
know, close the door and don'tinteract with people.
But, but if you have kids, likehow cool is that, that you get
to be the person who changesthat your generation is the one
(16:18):
who shifted it so that father'sday can be a positive thing.
Absolutely.
That's pretty cool.
Ben (16:24):
Yeah.
My dad growing up had a prettysour relationship with his dad.
And.
Sometimes when I get irritatedwith the, I'll call it a lack of
depth.
my dad is certainly not nearlyas sensitive as I am.
He doesn't necessarily valuethat authentic deep let's sit
(16:46):
down and have a conversationabout this.
And it makes sense because henever learned that from his dad.
Unfortunately, his dad was justa very difficult person to be
around and that's what he grewup with in my own wrestling with
Father's Day and the tensionthat comes with it.
(17:08):
I've just had to come to a pointwhere I look at my dad and I can
say you know what?
I'm not gonna hold that againstyou because you really did do
the best you could with what youwere given And unfortunately,
you weren't given enough Yeah.
It's generational trauma, itreally shows itself on Father's
(17:29):
Day, and Mother's Day.
Jim (17:31):
I'm in a different situation, and This is always
tough to say, but I'll say thisbecause I know my dad believes
it to be true as well.
My dad didn't do his best.
Like he, he could have been abetter, more present father to
us.
I've had those conversationswith him where he has.
(17:52):
Talked about his regrets withsome of how he handled things
along the way.
So definitely extending gracewhile at the same time there was
a capacity for him to be morepresent in our lives than, than
he was.
And that's just a missedopportunity.
(18:13):
That's something that he.
Often reflects back on it.
You can spend so much time andenergy focusing on a career and
trying to make sure thateverything is set right.
The whole Dave Ramsey thing.
I'm sorry, but.
Unless you're making bucketloads of money, live like no one
else so that you can live likeno one else.
(18:34):
Realistically for most of usmeans the entirety of your
children's childhood.
You don't do anything.
Rice and beans and beans andrice.
And then when you finally.
Finally retire as a millionaire.
Your kids want nothing to dowith, right?
Nope.
Sorry.
You, you can't play on thebaseball team because I want to
(18:55):
be able to retire when I'm 62 isso that has shaped who I am as
an individual.
I had failure after failureafter failure.
I have to remind myself.
Part of the reason was because Iwas always making my decisions
around making sure that I.
Always would be present for myfamily and that my kids not for
(19:16):
a day would feel like they werebeing neglected by that I'm
going to show up if I've gotstuff to do.
If I'm pursuing that master'sdegree, I'm doing it at night
when they're in bed.
That's not to shame some people.
You gotta do what you gotta do.
But You'd still have thecapacity to do the best with the
situation that you are handed.
(19:37):
And sometimes I'd rather have arelationship with my kids than a
ton of money.
And so for me, that relationshipthat I had with my dad or lack
thereof has shaped what I donow.
I think we've all had thosemoments where your kid is like,
(19:57):
Hey dad, can we, Fill in theblank, some kind of game that
you really don't want to playactivity that you super don't
want to do.
There are times when I am sostinking busy and it's like, I
need to do this right now or thething will catch on fire.
It's amazing how, when it's apriority, you find a way.
(20:20):
to put the thing down becausekids don't need long.
No, I'm not saying minimize whatyou do with your kids, but if
it's one of those moments whereyou absolutely can't step away
or you think you can't stepaway, tell me you can't step
away for seven minutes to dosomething with your kid.
A lot of times my kid, myyoungest quality time.
(20:45):
So important to him.
He asked me to do something.
Me putting this thing down isgonna stop the momentum and it's
gonna set back the project.
And it's a, who cares?
My kid is coming to me to ask meto do something.
Right.
No kidding.
I put down the damn shovel and Igo spend time with my kid.
Yeah.
For seven or eight minutesbecause he asked me right now
(21:06):
and I can do the thing.
And a lot of times all he wantedwas seven or eight minutes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then I go back up and I pickup the shovel and I get back to
work.
Yeah.
Sometimes your kids just want tobe acknowledged in that moment.
And so that's, So much moreimpactful because I think
sometimes people think like, Oh,I have to now go do this for an
(21:26):
hour or whatever.
That's how I've lived my lifeand I don't regret it.
Yeah.
I've heard so many people saythat that quote at the end of
their lives, it was like, nobodyever says they wish they would
have worked another day.
Yeah.
At least up to now, I don't haveregrets about how I have been as
a father and you guys have heardme talk about areas in my life
(21:50):
that I have abysmally failed,but that's one area where.
If there's something I'm goingto not fail at, it's being a
dad.
Ben (21:57):
Yeah.
Unfortunately, I don't have theability to say that or at least
that's the feeling I have inthis moment right now, because
there are.
was a season in life wherebecause of the stress and just
utter awfulness of the workplaceenvironment I was a part of, it
(22:20):
left me feeling completelyempty, broken, insufficient,
incapable, and I would go homeand that's how I would present
myself to my family.
And at the time, it was just mywife and my son.
And one of the hardest thingsthat I have heard my son say Is
(22:41):
how difficult that season wasfor him and how he would observe
me sitting in a dark room in achair and not available to him,
shut down, completely brokenfrom the day and he would go
into his room and read bookswhile mom was at grad school,
(23:03):
getting her master's degree.
That was a season that I have areally hard time.
Being kind to myself aboutforgiving myself for that time.
It was never that Iintentionally looked at my son
and said, can't do it.
(23:23):
I'd rather just sit here in mychair.
It wasn't that at all.
I was stuck in depression.
And for that reason, Father'sDay can be hard, because I don't
have a perfect track record.
I've always wanted to do rightby my kids, but I was a very
(23:45):
broken man in that season, and Iwas not everything that my son
needed me to be.
And that hurts.
Yeah.
Especially looking at where heis in life now and some of the
struggles that he's beenwrestling through.
It's hard for me to not look atthat and say, that's my fault.
Yeah.
And it's not, that is justflawed logic to think that the
(24:09):
struggles he's having right noware because of me.
Is it part of it?
Sure.
But am I the sum total cause ofAll that he's wrapped up in?
No, I'm not.
Yeah.
And I need to have a balancedview of that.
It's so easy for me to be sohard on myself and beat myself
(24:31):
up for not being what my kidneeded me to be in that time.
But frankly, just getting upevery day and surviving and
making it through the day, thatwas the best I could do for him.
It's not like I stayed there, Ieventually did leave, I sought
mental health help, I pridemyself in dealing with that
(24:56):
darkness and not allowing it toovertake me anymore, but there
was a time where it was verydark.
And.
I hate that, but that's part ofmy kid's story.
Jim (25:08):
Yeah, that's the nuance of Father's Day, right?
We talked about that a littlebit in the forgiveness episode,
and I hope you've gotten to apoint where you can forgive
that, but you did the best thatyou could.
In that season, it just wasn'tenough.
So now that feels like a regretas a dad, I think, I think a lot
(25:30):
of times you just have to belike, you know what I screwed
up, but I also I was just tryingto survive and the fact that I
didn't kill myself or dosomething awful.
Ben (25:43):
Right.
I'm still here.
Jim (25:46):
I think you just can't beat yourself up about that.
Don't let that stop you frombeing Yeah.
Today, you talked in our lastepisode about sort of that
progress that you felt like yourson was making and that he
agreed to sort of step into thisprogram to help him get some
(26:10):
help.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You talked about.
Those feelings of guilt and isthis my fault?
How has that felt as a, as a dadto experience that?
Is there guilt that you stillfeel in that situation or have
you moved past that?
Ben (26:27):
I think I've really made a lot of progress.
I'd love to sit here and sayI've completely moved past it,
not an issue anymore, but whenyou see your son struggle and
you see.
him make the choices that my sonhas been making.
It's like, you just wantsomething to explain it away.
(26:50):
Something that makes it makesense because it just doesn't.
It's in that moment of justneeding an answer, it's easy to
say, Oh, it's my fault.
But that's not reality.
Did I have a part in his?
Downfall.
Perhaps I did because I was nottaking care of myself and I was
(27:13):
not available for that season,but it was a season and after
that season, it was night andday.
My son and I would go out tobreakfast at least once a month
before school.
I directed the soccer programthat he was a part of, and I am
by no means athletic.
That was the thing that I didbecause it was a father son
(27:36):
opportunity.
Sure.
Sure.
I encouraged him to go tocounseling and to take part.
I sat with him in sessions.
Yes, I had a rough patch there,but that was not the defining
mark of my fatherhood.
And that's what I just have tohold on to in that moment.
It is hard because I have beenadvocating hard for him behind
(27:57):
the scenes in ways that he'llprobably not understand or
appreciate until he's grown.
Just because I haven't been ableto talk with him or have that
ongoing relationship that weonce had, it doesn't mean that I
stopped being his dad.
Right.
I've been working to get him thehelp he needs.
(28:20):
Hmm.
And I'm not going to stop.
The amount of vile and hatredand all of that is certainly a
bit much and that's hard, buthe's also hurting and being an
adopted kid is hard and I knowthat factors in that.
So there's just so much at playthat makes.
(28:44):
Father's Day hard, and itcertainly brings all of that to
the surface, especially in ayear like this year where it has
been very challenging with myson.
Jim (28:55):
Yeah, I was thinking an important point in all of that
is sometimes there is atemptation to define whether or
not you are a good father by howyour kid turns out.
Right, yeah.
The results of fatherhood.
Yeah.
For lack of a better term.
And I'm sorry, but you may haveto bleep me, but that's
(29:16):
bullshit.
It is.
Yes.
We can't control at the end ofthe day.
What are kids do?
And there are physiologicalthings that can impact your
kids.
There are environmental thingsthat can impact your kids.
You can't take onus for that anymore than somebody whose kid
turns out great.
(29:37):
Because a lot of times thepeople whose kids they think
turned out great is because itwas.
A pressure centric achievementbased family that says you have
to be a doctor or you have to bea lawyer or you have to be a,
the president of the UnitedStates and the entire
(29:58):
relationship is based aroundmaking sure that your kid can
make you proud.
You think, look at my kid andhow successful they are.
And you don't even realize that.
How much they hate you rightbecause your entire relationship
has been defined around makingsure I'm sorry But that they
make you look right.
(30:19):
Yeah, it's all about carrying onthe family legacy Yeah, so I do
feel like I've been a good dad,but that is not because my kids
are perfect No, by no meansquite the opposite.
I literally the first day ofkindergarten.
I got a call from the principalThe day hadn't even started.
It was like a bus ride to theschool issue.
(30:43):
And this is after havingprobably every other day for a
season.
It was honestly every day that Iwas getting calls from the
school about my oldest son.
And now I think, Oh, my sweetyoung boy, he's going to go to
school and it's going to be.
Better.
My kid, man, both of my kids, ithas been such a struggle since
(31:07):
day one.
Every year for the last 12years, I have faced a challenge
with one or both kids that if Iwas determining being a good dad
on.
Yeah.
Oh, that's good.
I'm not a good dad.
In fact, I'm kind of a crappydad.
Don't do that to yourself.
(31:27):
You can't, you can't do that toyourself.
Oh
Ben (31:29):
yeah.
For me, a big realization thatI've had this year, and this is
actually from a good friend ofmine, Aaron.
I spend a lot of time.
Asking big questions with Aaron.
Like he's the type of friend whohas the capacity to hear a
question, no matter howdifficult it is or how loaded it
(31:50):
is, and still be with me in thatmoment and unpack the question
in a nonjudgmental way, I justcame to realize that I had this
view of fatherhood andparenthood of.
If I put in A, thenmathematically I'm going to get
result B, because that's howlife works, right?
(32:14):
Outcomes, like it's predictable,like there's a method to things.
The truth is there's no methodor predictableness about kids.
It's a crapshoot.
It is a total crapshoot.
I once heard the phrase, there'sno such thing as bad kids,
there's only bad parents.
And hear me out.
I don't like the label bad tobegin with, but I've just
(32:36):
learned that the opposite istrue.
Like, no, that's not it at all.
Just because a kid has badbehavior doesn't mean that he
has a bad parent that hasn'ttaught him the ways.
No, not at all.
Here's the thing about kids,man.
They have free will to choosewhatever they want to do.
Yeah.
And just because I have put inthe very best effort and just
(32:59):
because.
You could not handpick a bettermom and dad for our kids and
their unique needs and theirchallenges that they face.
All that being the case doesn'tmean that they're going to just
fall in line with myexpectations for them.
Yeah.
They are humans just as much asI am with the capacity to choose
(33:23):
and to make decisions and tochoose wrong.
Yeah.
I mean Whether they know theyare or not is debatable, but
just the realization that I cangive them my very best.
It doesn't mean that it's goingto be received.
Yeah.
And lived out.
Jim (33:44):
And ultimately, that's the goal of parenting is, in the
beginning, you make all thedecisions and, You do all the
things they literally wouldn'tsurvive without you, or at least
somebody taking care of them.
But over time, the goal is toequip them to be able to make
decisions themselves.
And for me, part of parenting.
(34:06):
Is allowing them to makemistakes, sometimes even big
mistakes, as long as it's notgonna main killer dismember,
then it's like, that's a reallybad idea and I'll tell them why
it's a bad idea, but they get itstuck in their head.
One of the greatest tools forteaching a lesson is the
experience of having to dealwith the consequences of your
(34:29):
own actions, right?
Yeah.
You said earlier.
I find the opposite to be true,referring to there are no bad
kids, only bad parents.
Are you saying that there's nobad parents?
Or was that
Ben (34:42):
It's a very Because I
Jim (34:44):
disagree.
There are absolutely badparents.
Absolutely,
Ben (34:48):
there are.
And I'm not dismissing that.
I'm not saying there are no badparents.
Jim (34:53):
The intent is, if I'm understanding correctly, that
the parents, Aren't necessarilythe reason why a kid might turn
out a way one way or another.
Ben (35:01):
That's more what I'm getting at.
And I know that's a loadedphrase to begin with just even
labeling something as bad.
I feel like is getting into somedangerous hot water.
Jim (35:13):
I don't like labeling kids as bad.
I have zero problem withlabeling a parent as bad.
There are some bad parents outthere, period.
There are.
Absolutely.
Bad parents.
Yes.
Labeling a kid is bad.
Their brain is still developing.
Ben (35:29):
It's very deterministic.
Jim (35:30):
They're trying to figure themselves out in a world and
sometimes, especially when theydo have bad parents who have
neglected them or put them in aposition where they are in fight
or flight mode, right?
They make bad decisions becauseof the environment that they're
in.
Um, I don't think that thatmakes them a bad kid.
(35:51):
So I am kind of prone to saying,I don't want a hundred percent
say that there's no bad kids,regardless of whether it's their
fault or not.
Some kids are truly psychoticand I don't think I would have a
problem calling them a bad kid.
It's just sad how they gotthere.
(36:12):
And it might be as simple aslike a tumor in their brain that
makes them Yeah.
Way more aggressive or, somebodywho just doesn't have those
emotions.
You don't see the harm in, intruly hurting somebody else.
A true psychopath is rare, butif you're born without that
capacity, I agree.
(36:34):
It feels funny to, to call,especially a kid bad, but man,
at some point or another, maybeit's just a nuance that isn't
important, but know.
Parents can be bad.
Ben (36:44):
Yeah, I would agree.
I mean, hello, that's why I havethe kids that I have.
Let's just be honest.
Jim (36:51):
Yeah.
Parents abuse.
Parents neglect.
Parents take advantage.
Yep.
Parents have done some terriblethings to their kids.
So they get to be called bad andworse.
Yeah.
But yeah, that is interesting.
I think that's why both of uskind of have a problem with
labeling a kid bad.
But parents, man, you shouldknow better by now.
Ben (37:13):
Yes.
Jim (37:13):
So there
Ben (37:14):
is truth to that.
to that,
Jim (37:15):
but there's generational trauma to that, right?
Impact that.
Ben (37:18):
Yeah.
The worst parent that you canthink of is probably the worst
parent because they had theworst parent.
A lot of times that's true.
I mean, at some point though,you have to be the cycle
breaker, not the cycle maker.
Ooh, that was deep,
Jim (37:33):
profound, love it.
Just because you've been througha traumatic experience doesn't
mean you can't use that.
You can help other people.
You can be the cycle breaker andthat's what we get the
opportunity to do as dads.
It's the most important thingyou're ever going to do if
you're a dad.
Oh yeah.
(37:53):
It's a big deal.
It is.
So, you're such a good dad, Ben.
Ben (37:59):
I try to believe that.
It's harder to believe in somemoments, but I would agree.
Jim (38:07):
You know, I talked in an earlier episode about, like, the
wall that you have surroundingyour feelings and your
personhood.
Mm hmm.
And we all have low points inour wall.
It's tough.
And it's interesting as I hearyou pause, it feels like that's
(38:27):
kind of a low point in yourwall.
Ben (38:29):
Oh, it absolutely is.
Jim (38:31):
I want to tell myself that I'm a good dad, but I don't know
if I believe it yet.
Ben (38:36):
Yeah.
I'm a good girl Dad.
I know that I'm crushing it withmy daughter.
I don't have any doubt orquestion in my mind about that.
I love the relationship that Ihave with her.
But when I look at my son, who'sjust so quickly transitioning
into adulthood, and separatingfrom us, which is natural, it's
(38:56):
Should happen, but the contextin which that's happening is so
hard and knowing that though Ihave worked on myself and
improved and I'm not the personthat I was 10 years ago, he was
around and he witnessed.
His dad at his lowest and thatthat's hard for a kid and so I
(39:21):
will always have a hesitancy ifsomebody tells me that I'm a
good dad, I'll be like, yeah,but I wasn't always.
That is one of my biggestregrets in life.
If not, my biggest regret is notseeking help sooner.
But that's the thing withdepression.
(39:43):
You get stuck in a rut and youdon't think there can be
anything better.
And to even venture out and seekhelp is a miracle in itself.
Yeah, it was hard, but eventhough that season was hard, I
have to, I have to cling to thegood memories because I was not
(40:06):
completely absent from my son'slife in that season.
Not at all.
I fondly remember a weekendwhere Andy was.
working on a class project orwas out of town for something
related to school.
And I took my son to B dubs forthe first time.
(40:26):
It was his first wingexperience.
And then we came home and wewatched Pirates of the
Caribbean.
And I was at a pretty low point,but I still was able to rally
and be that for my son.
It's not completely a failedcause, and that's what I need to
(40:48):
cling to in those moments whereit feels like it's a lost cause.
In this season of life, yeah,things are pretty tricky with my
son, and it's throwing me for aloop every day, and I, I hate
it.
But I just have to hold on tohope that this isn't going to be
forever, and that things canimprove, and to be open to that.
(41:12):
That's the hardest part ofFather's Day for me, is just
maintaining that openness, thatLife can be good again as a dad
with my son.
I know that on like a mentallevel, but to really believe
that things can get better andthat this is not beyond hope.
(41:37):
Father's Day's loaded this year,for sure.
Jim (41:42):
Do you think that you would feel the same way if you had a
better relationship with yourson today?
About not being a good dad.
Ben (41:53):
If I can own part of something and be able to explain
it as somehow my fault or myissue, or if I can put my stamp
of ownership on it, somehow itmakes it more tolerable because
it's something that I caused.
But at the same time, to answeryour question, I really don't
(42:15):
know.
That's a good question.
Jim (42:18):
Let me frame it a different way.
I tried my absolute hardest tosucceed.
At Edward Jones so far out ofthe comfort zone and putting
myself out there did the bestthat I could and I still failed,
(42:38):
but I still feel like.
Not only was it not good enough,but I must just not be good
enough.
So if it's based on how hard youtried, that's you as a dad where
you tried the best that youcould in the, Situation that you
(42:59):
were in, but now you have thesenegative results, so you can't
help but think, well, that justmust mean because I'm a bad dad.
Sure.
We talked about pulling theselfish and eating the peanuts
when you're sitting there.
It sounds like maybe there wassome season of that, but was it
really enough that it would bethe cause of the spot that
(43:22):
you're sitting in?
Ben (43:23):
Yeah.
That's a good point.
Probably not.
Jim (43:26):
Probably not.
What I guess what I'm trying tosay in all of that is I, I can
sit here and say you're a gooddad because I think that you
have taken the steps to giveyour kid all the opportunities
to make the right decisions.
Yeah.
But you can't force them to walkthrough those doors.
Ben (43:43):
They have free stinking will.
Jim (43:46):
But I can't fault you for that gut feeling of yeah.
Questioning whether or notyou're a good dad.
Yeah.
Ben (43:52):
And in those moments of questioning, I need to just
cling to facts and not justemotion because when my son was
not receiving the level of carehe desperately needed, when all
of this began, I didn't just.
Sit back and let that happen.
Oh, gosh, no.
(44:12):
I went before the county mentalhealth board and I said, this is
the experience that we had, thisis the result that's had on my
son do better.
And you know what?
They heard me.
And for kids in similarcircumstances, they started to
(44:33):
get the help they needed.
It stinks that it had to come atthe cost of my son, not getting
help, but I could have just satback and said, Oh, that sucks.
So we had to go through that.
I didn't, I said, that wasn'tokay.
And I'm going to go do somethingabout this.
(44:54):
And I got to sit down with the.
Executive director of the mentalhealth commission.
Am I a bad dad?
No, bad dads.
Don't do that kind of thing.
Is my kid struggling?
Yeah, he is.
And it's the hardest thing towatch as a dad.
It hurts me to see him struggle.
(45:15):
But I hold on to hope that therewill come a day when he receives
the level of care that he needs.
And when he has a right andcorrect view of our
relationship.
And until then, I'm just goingto keep fighting and keep being
the best dad I can in the waysthat he allows me to.
(45:39):
I
Jim (45:40):
have this conversation with my wife a lot where she
struggles like you, where everyindiscretion of our kids, she
blames on her flaws as a mother.
Ben (45:52):
Yep.
It is so, so much what I do.
Jim (45:59):
It just hurts my heart to see how amazing of a mom she is.
In spite of the trauma of herchildhood, she's turning around
and I see this amazing womanbefore me who can't give
herself.
Credit.
I literally cannot get her tospeak the words.
(46:20):
I am a good mom that's that weakpoint in her wall because of the
neglect and trauma that she wentthrough as a little girl.
It's so important for her to bethe perfect mother that she can
never live up to her ownexpectations, but she has such a
great mom.
(46:41):
If it's Father's Day, so we'regoing back to the dads.
Like if you're out there feelinglike you're a bad dad because
your kids didn't turn out theway that you hoped they would
give yourself some forgiveness.
I mean, if you're the badparent, then right?
Like you can stuff it like, sureyou were a bad dad and maybe it
was your fault and you have todeal with that Yeah.
(47:03):
But if you tried your hardestand even if you were going
through a tough time and you hadto work 60 hours a week Because
you had to Put food on the tablenot because you wanted a nice
car or a bigger house But youliterally had to do it because
you just never got into a jobthat paid more than 16 an hour
Right, you had to work more toprovide for your family You have
(47:26):
to forgive the fact that youcouldn't be there as much as you
wanted for your kids and thatdoesn't work It doesn't make you
a bad dad, not at all.
It doesn't make you a bad dadthat your kid ended up getting
into drugs, that your kid endedup homeless on the streets, that
your kid ended up getting a girlpregnant as a 14 year old.
(47:48):
You can't control theirdecisions.
It doesn't make you a bad dad.
If you tried your best and youpointed your kids towards those
opportunities to make the rightdecision, you can't force them
to do it.
And if you do, that's going toscrew them up too.
You're a good dad.
(48:08):
Hear that today, unless you'rethe bad one and work on
yourself.
I am guessing if you'relistening to real men hug,
you're probably, there's like a99 percent chance you're a damn
good dad, that you're a good dadand you're And you're a good
mom.
So happy father's day.
Ben (48:29):
And even if it isn't happy father's day, how about that?
Just father's day, father's dayto you.
It's father's day.
Yes.
We'll start a new trend,
Jim (48:42):
man.
I, it is, it's a complicatedday, but I.
I love being a dad and we knowthat Ben and I support you as a
father.
Mothers, we support you.
You got this.
This too shall pass.
If you're going through thosetough situations, give yourself
(49:04):
some grace.
Ben (49:05):
I'm right there with you.
Cause I am.
I'm struggling to give myselfgrace, but it's okay.
Jim (49:11):
I give you grace, Ben.
Thanks.
Take us out.
Ben (49:16):
Roland Warren said, Good fathers do three things.
They provide, they nurture, andthey guide.
Nowhere in there does it saythat their kids turn out
perfect, or that they doeverything right.
So if you're a dad, the missionis pretty simple.
Provide, nurture, guide.
Guide.
(49:37):
If you do those three things,you're going to knock it out of
the ballpark.
Keep it up.
You're doing a great job and youdon't hear that often enough.
So keep at it to all the dadsout there.
And thanks for joining us todayon Real Men Hug.
Jim (49:52):
If you liked this episode, send it to a friend that you
think would benefit from it.
We want to reach as many peoplewith these positive messages,
these affirmations andencouragement to just be a
better person, be a better dad.
If it's resonating with you andyou haven't told somebody else
about it, why not?
We want other people to be ableto hear this and that is the
(50:14):
biggest thing.
Best way that you can support usis by letting other people know
about this podcast.
If it has touched you, if it hasencouraged you, if you tune in
every week, tell a friend, sendthem a link to the episode that
you liked, tell them you need tocheck out this podcast.
Thank you guys so much forlistening and remember real men
(50:36):
hug unless it's my youngest sonwho actually Really doesn't like
being hugged Which kills meinside
Ben (50:47):
Maybe for Father's Day, you'll get a hug this year.
Real men hug, and they also givethemselves grace for when
they're not perfect.
Jim (50:56):
Ben, I'm proud of you this entire episode.
You didn't pee on the floor asingle time.
You didn't even go to thebathroom between recordings.
I know.
Ben (51:07):
And I even drank, like, two cups of water.
Jim (51:09):
You could have done it, but I appreciate that you didn't.
Ben (51:14):
I don't even know how that started, but it's apparently a
thing now.
Jim (51:18):
The water's warm.
Ben (51:20):
Jump on in.
Jim (51:21):
Just not next to Ben.
Oh man, I gotta get out of here.
Yeah.
All right.
Welcome to real men hug a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Ben and I'm Jim welcome
Jim (00:12):
Come on in the water's warm.
Ben (00:14):
Oh, man.
Did you pee in it?
Jim (00:17):
No, I Know a lot of people say they do that.
I Always thought that was superweird.
Yeah.
I would have had to go real badfor that to be something that I
was okay with.
Cause you're still peeing inyour pants.
I don't care if there's waterthere or not, but there's
chlorine that somehow cleans itup.
I don't know.
(00:37):
God, no.
Yeah.
Listen, I'm not here to judge,but I judge you if you pee in
pools.
If you are over six and you peein a pool, I judge you.
Ben (00:51):
Welcome to our o.
Well, yeah.
Notice there's no pee in it.
No pee.
Let's keep it that way, that
Jim (00:57):
I don't, how on earth did we start talking about being in
a pool?
Ben (01:01):
You said something about jump in the water's warm.
Jim (01:03):
Oh, that's right.
Oh my gosh.
That's a great way to start ourfather's day episode with, with
a pun about being in the pooldad jokes about pee this entire
episode.
We dedicate to dad jokes.
So
Ben (01:16):
there will be a few
Jim (01:17):
come on in the water is warm, but only by Ben.
Ben (01:24):
About that
Jim (01:25):
about that did you pee in pools
Ben (01:28):
not in pools?
I wouldn't like If we were atthe cottage and the bathroom was
a long walk away You just peeyour pants pee in the water
there, but not in wait pee inwhat water And the, like the
lake or whatever.
Oh,
Jim (01:43):
I thought I was envisioning you in a cabin and being like,
ah, the bathrooms are reallylong ways away.
What the heck is wrong with you?
First, you're walking throughlike the sticky resin in our
last episode.
And now you're peeing on floors.
Something against floors forsome reason.
Wow.
Wow.
(02:03):
So happy father's day,everybody.
Ben (02:05):
It's your day dads.
Jim (02:07):
It's your day.
Take advantage.
Ben (02:10):
What did the devil get back from the photo lab?
Jim (02:14):
Oh my gosh, I, what?
Ben (02:17):
Prints of darkness.
Jim (02:24):
Okay, so half of our listeners are going to have no
clue what you're talking about.
And I'd say a good like 49percent of the other ones are
groaning right now.
Yes.
Ben (02:36):
What's big, green and fuzzy and if it falls out of a tree,
it kills you?
A pool table.
Jim (02:46):
I mean, I guess that would probably kill you.
It's pretty fuzzy too.
It depends on how dense the soilwas underneath you.
I feel like possible.
If it was really loamy soil, youmight be, and like how far up in
the tree is it?
I mean.
Okay.
So if, uh, if it was that lowme, then you would just drown
(03:08):
after it's, after you getsmacked by a several hundred
pound table, these are thoughtsto ponder folks on his father's
day.
So my gosh, I, I have reallyenjoyed.
Father's Day.
I have been a father myself nowfor a 12 years plus you've been
a father for umpteen years.
Ben (03:30):
Fifteen we'll call it.
Yeah.
Fifteen ish.
Yeah.
Jim (03:33):
It's a blast, man.
That's one word for it.
So not It's not always been ablast, but we'll get into that
later.
Ben (03:41):
Yeah.
And fatherhood for you looksprobably different than what
fatherhood looks like for me.
Jim (03:46):
It's true, because I'm more awesome at it than you are.
Ben (03:51):
Alright, I'm out.
Peace.
Jim (03:54):
Yep.
Buckle in, cause Ben's peeing onthe floor.
Guys, best episode ever.
You are in for such a treat.
Speaking of treats, Segway,what's the best father's day
gift that you've ever received?
What's the loot.
Ben (04:14):
Well, I don't want to portray that.
I have favorites among my kids.
However, I do have a favoritegift that just happened to come
from my daughter.
Jim (04:24):
You know, when you couch it that way, everybody knows now
that yeah, well, it's yourfavorite
Ben (04:31):
in seasons of life.
Definitely.
But my daughter one year went toMeyer and picked out all kinds
of things that reminded her ofme.
Jim (04:43):
Of her own volition.
Ben (04:44):
Yeah.
Jim (04:45):
That's the gift, right?
Yes.
Yeah.
That's so cool.
She was amazing.
Wow.
Ben (04:51):
Or things that reminded her of us and the time that we had
spent together and going back towhen she first came to our
house.
One of the things that we keptin the house at the time were
those snack pack puddings.
Uh, that you see on Tommy Boy, Ithink it is.
Or no, not Tommy Boy.
It would be Happy Gilmore.
(05:11):
I'm so bad at movies, I shouldneed to try.
Nope.
Jim (05:14):
So anyways, it was the Sandra Bullock movie.
Uh, with Chris Rock.
And And Sinbad too.
They were all in it.
They were all in it.
And mine had been dreaming.
Ben (05:26):
But at any rate, she got me the snack pack pudding because
it reminded her of her and Isitting at the table in the
early days of her joining ourfamily and having pudding
together.
And she had sticky notes onevery item she picked out
explaining why it meantsomething to her or why it
reminded her of me.
(05:47):
And it was just the sweetestthing, like this nice plastic
container full of objects thathave a lot of meaning to them.
Jim (05:56):
So you had a few years there, if I remember correctly,
where it was not quite so hunkydory with you and the daughter.
Mm-Hmm.
Um, to remind our listeners, hisdaughter adopted, she was eight.
Okay.
When she joined their family,she was eight, was a rough
situation.
(06:17):
How many years later was this?
to share.
Ben (06:22):
This was last year.
So it was six years in themaking.
Wow.
Yeah.
Jim (06:25):
A thousand times more impactful that you went from
little girl to now your teenagerwho, oh my gosh, how.
It's amazing.
That's so cool.
Yes.
Oh man.
I'm, I gotta be honest.
I love my boys, but I'm a littlebit jealous of the father
(06:46):
daughter relationship.
So that's so cool that, that shedid that.
I love that.
Ben (06:52):
Yeah.
Pretty great.
That's awesome.
How about you?
Jim (06:56):
You know, my kids have done stuff too, and a lot of times it
means a lot that they spent timedoing something.
But especially my oldest, hereally is a thoughtful kid.
Mm-Hmm.
So he honestly does a prettygood job.
And even my youngest, like wehave a special relationship and
he's just a hilarious kid.
(07:17):
He might like take a minute todo the thing for Father's Day,
but I just.
Always love the stuff from thekids, but honestly, probably one
of the best Father's Dayexperiences.
Does this make me a bad dad thathad nothing to do with my kids
at all?
Father's Day, I went I Listen, Iknow a lot of moms out there are
(07:40):
gonna resonate with you're like,you know what for Mother's Day I
want no one to touch me.
I want to go somewhere by myselfMy best father's day experience
that I can remember is going toTraverse City with the wife and
we did a wine tour in the Lelandall peninsula.
(08:00):
Just getting a chance to getaway.
Unplug and, try some differentwines and experience that sort
of weekend.
I love hard ciders.
It's funny.
I'm talking about a wine tour.
I'm honestly.
I'm not a big drinker.
I very rarely drink, but as anexperience over a weekend, it
(08:21):
was fun to do.
And when I do drink an awful lotof times, it's like a hard cider
or something like that.
And one of the places it waslike, you basically, you could
buy a hard cider for the sameprice as you normally would.
But it came with a signaturetall glass that had An etching
of that particular winery on it.
(08:43):
And anytime I drink hard cider,I drink it out of that cup and
it reminds me of our trip.
And I really, it was just somuch fun.
And for me, especially in theearly days of fatherhood,
because it was so difficult, Ithink the enjoyment of father's
day was like, Jim, I appreciateyou as a father.
(09:04):
And so today you don't have todo any father related stuff.
Oh, that's great.
And my wife is pretty thoughtfulat getting me gifts.
She has gotten me some like funshirts that have said like, I
love you 3000 from the Avengersmovie or whatever it is.
And best dad in the galaxy,
Ben (09:23):
Sandra Bullock is in, right?
Jim (09:24):
Yes.
Sandra Bullock.
She steps through a gate thatDr.
Strange had created.
Ben (09:31):
And.
I think the rock was in that onetoo.
Jim (09:34):
I mean, the rock is kind of in everything, so she's really
good at that stuff.
She got me a pair of socks thathave my kid's faces on it.
That's awesome.
They, I love those socks everyonce in a while.
I'll just bust them on.
And I love it when people noticethe socks that are those your
kids?
I'm like, yeah, they are.
And she did the research too,because some places don't
(09:55):
account for the fact that Socksstretch.
And so the pictures look likethese deformed monsters.
Not so with these socks.
I like novelty shirts andnovelty socks and yeah,
compression socks.
We're getting old then we gotcompression socks knocking on
the door.
Can you hear it?
Ben (10:15):
Probably help with my gout,
Jim (10:18):
oh my gosh, I don't even know what that is, I just know
it's something that you getbecause you're old.
Ben (10:22):
Yep, pretty much.
Jim (10:23):
You're like, I'm old.
Listen, we can relate here.
Ben (10:28):
For as awesome as those gifts are, whether they are the
tailor made gift box ofmemories, or socks with your
kids faces on them, those arepretty great.
But the reality is, Father's daycan be hard too.
Even if you're the best dad inthe world, or if you had the
(10:49):
best dad in the world,fatherhood is tricky.
And I know for me, myrelationship with my dad over
the years has, had its ups anddowns and.
If I'm honest, my ability to bethe dad that my kids needed in
(11:09):
certain seasons of life waslacking and father's day can
sometimes be a reminder that Iam far from perfect.
It's a reminder of those hardyears where.
It was a struggle to evencelebrate the day for so many
different reasons.
In my context, my wife and I areadoptive parents.
(11:34):
Father's day and mother's day isan entirely different thing for
adopted kids.
It is loaded.
I mean, here you are living withthis family that did not.
Give birth to you.
You've been with them for only apart of your life.
My kids have or had a mom anddad and they're not with them
(11:58):
anymore.
And so on mother's day andfather's day adopted kids,
especially feel this tension of,I feel like I should be loyal to
my dad.
Because it's Father's Day, butwhat about this dude that I've
never even really met that'sactually my biological dad?
(12:19):
It's easy to kind of give thatanswer of, well, you are their
dad, you adopted them, andthat's the role you play, and
that's true, but you cannotdiminish science.
Blood connections, like thatstuff.
Sure.
Matters, and so to be separatedfrom your blood on Father's Day,
It can be tricky.
Jim (12:41):
Yeah.
For sure.
Different.
Maybe you're not even listeningto this episode because it's
just too hard and I don't blameyou.
But if you are here and you havea complicated relationship,
first of all, we both, I think,have complicated relationships
with our dad.
You have kids who have acomplicated relationship with
their dad.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And.
My wife literally doesn't evenknow who her dad is.
(13:05):
For the first five or six yearsof our marriage, we didn't have
kids.
Every father's day, it was likethis weird situation where she
had this complicated weight thatcame with father's day.
And really for her, it's beenthis redemptive process now that
(13:26):
I'm a that it's kind of likereclaimed.
Father's day for her.
It's a big deal.
It used to be traditionallyeverybody, if you were a woman,
you would change your name whenyou got married.
Nowadays, that's a lot lesscommon than it used to be.
And I think it just dependssituationally.
(13:46):
But for Melissa.
She was like my last name meansnothing It wasn't even her mom's
name at the time because she hadbeen remarried Before and so it
just was the name that her momhappened to have right at the
time that she was born And soshe was like, give me your last
(14:09):
name.
I, I couldn't possibly care lessabout the old name.
I want to switch the name.
And it's been a similarsituation with father's day.
Before that day meant nothing oreven had negative implications.
And now.
It's something totally differentbecause she's gotten to see me
(14:30):
as a dad and even in mysituation when I was little, my
parents were going through amessy divorce and so there
wasn't like time or energy orlet's be honest to normalcy in
our household.
I literally don't remember.
A father's day happening.
(14:52):
Really?
No, I know.
I know my mom is listening tothis and saying, you don't
remember?
No, mom.
I don't remember.
I'm not saying you didn't dosomething for dad.
I just don't remember as a kid,I'm sure we did stuff, but it
just wasn't impactful becausethat was such a, a messy
situation that.
(15:13):
If I don't know father's day wasjust another day on the calendar
to me, like to this day, it'snot like you all of a sudden
things get better.
I work with my dad now, sothat's helped our relationship a
lot, but I'm not going to getinto all of everything, but it
has, it's just been complicatedover the decades of my life.
(15:35):
Father's day is weird for me.
It's pretty cool that I can jumpin and be dad, but for me, that
wasn't modeled necessarily superwell when I was a kid.
Both Melissa and I parent inlarge part out of the absence of
our own childhood.
Ben (15:53):
Yeah, that's powerful.
Jim (15:57):
If you are one of those people that father's day is kind
of weird for you, you cancelebrate some of the other
people in your life or it's okayjust to take the day and I don't
know, close the door and don'tinteract with people.
But, but if you have kids, likehow cool is that, that you get
to be the person who changesthat your generation is the one
(16:18):
who shifted it so that father'sday can be a positive thing.
Absolutely.
That's pretty cool.
Ben (16:24):
Yeah.
My dad growing up had a prettysour relationship with his dad.
And.
Sometimes when I get irritatedwith the, I'll call it a lack of
depth.
my dad is certainly not nearlyas sensitive as I am.
He doesn't necessarily valuethat authentic deep let's sit
(16:46):
down and have a conversationabout this.
And it makes sense because henever learned that from his dad.
Unfortunately, his dad was justa very difficult person to be
around and that's what he grewup with in my own wrestling with
Father's Day and the tensionthat comes with it.
(17:08):
I've just had to come to a pointwhere I look at my dad and I can
say you know what?
I'm not gonna hold that againstyou because you really did do
the best you could with what youwere given And unfortunately,
you weren't given enough Yeah.
It's generational trauma, itreally shows itself on Father's
(17:29):
Day, and Mother's Day.
Jim (17:31):
I'm in a different situation, and This is always
tough to say, but I'll say thisbecause I know my dad believes
it to be true as well.
My dad didn't do his best.
Like he, he could have been abetter, more present father to
us.
I've had those conversationswith him where he has.
(17:52):
Talked about his regrets withsome of how he handled things
along the way.
So definitely extending gracewhile at the same time there was
a capacity for him to be morepresent in our lives than, than
he was.
And that's just a missedopportunity.
(18:13):
That's something that he.
Often reflects back on it.
You can spend so much time andenergy focusing on a career and
trying to make sure thateverything is set right.
The whole Dave Ramsey thing.
I'm sorry, but.
Unless you're making bucketloads of money, live like no one
else so that you can live likeno one else.
(18:34):
Realistically for most of usmeans the entirety of your
children's childhood.
You don't do anything.
Rice and beans and beans andrice.
And then when you finally.
Finally retire as a millionaire.
Your kids want nothing to dowith, right?
Nope.
Sorry.
You, you can't play on thebaseball team because I want to
(18:55):
be able to retire when I'm 62 isso that has shaped who I am as
an individual.
I had failure after failureafter failure.
I have to remind myself.
Part of the reason was because Iwas always making my decisions
around making sure that I.
Always would be present for myfamily and that my kids not for
(19:16):
a day would feel like they werebeing neglected by that I'm
going to show up if I've gotstuff to do.
If I'm pursuing that master'sdegree, I'm doing it at night
when they're in bed.
That's not to shame some people.
You gotta do what you gotta do.
But You'd still have thecapacity to do the best with the
situation that you are handed.
(19:37):
And sometimes I'd rather have arelationship with my kids than a
ton of money.
And so for me, that relationshipthat I had with my dad or lack
thereof has shaped what I donow.
I think we've all had thosemoments where your kid is like,
(19:57):
Hey dad, can we, Fill in theblank, some kind of game that
you really don't want to playactivity that you super don't
want to do.
There are times when I am sostinking busy and it's like, I
need to do this right now or thething will catch on fire.
It's amazing how, when it's apriority, you find a way.
(20:20):
to put the thing down becausekids don't need long.
No, I'm not saying minimize whatyou do with your kids, but if
it's one of those moments whereyou absolutely can't step away
or you think you can't stepaway, tell me you can't step
away for seven minutes to dosomething with your kid.
A lot of times my kid, myyoungest quality time.
(20:45):
So important to him.
He asked me to do something.
Me putting this thing down isgonna stop the momentum and it's
gonna set back the project.
And it's a, who cares?
My kid is coming to me to ask meto do something.
Right.
No kidding.
I put down the damn shovel and Igo spend time with my kid.
Yeah.
For seven or eight minutesbecause he asked me right now
(21:06):
and I can do the thing.
And a lot of times all he wantedwas seven or eight minutes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then I go back up and I pickup the shovel and I get back to
work.
Yeah.
Sometimes your kids just want tobe acknowledged in that moment.
And so that's, So much moreimpactful because I think
sometimes people think like, Oh,I have to now go do this for an
(21:26):
hour or whatever.
That's how I've lived my lifeand I don't regret it.
Yeah.
I've heard so many people saythat that quote at the end of
their lives, it was like, nobodyever says they wish they would
have worked another day.
Yeah.
At least up to now, I don't haveregrets about how I have been as
a father and you guys have heardme talk about areas in my life
(21:50):
that I have abysmally failed,but that's one area where.
If there's something I'm goingto not fail at, it's being a
dad.
Ben (21:57):
Yeah.
Unfortunately, I don't have theability to say that or at least
that's the feeling I have inthis moment right now, because
there are.
was a season in life wherebecause of the stress and just
utter awfulness of the workplaceenvironment I was a part of, it
(22:20):
left me feeling completelyempty, broken, insufficient,
incapable, and I would go homeand that's how I would present
myself to my family.
And at the time, it was just mywife and my son.
And one of the hardest thingsthat I have heard my son say Is
(22:41):
how difficult that season wasfor him and how he would observe
me sitting in a dark room in achair and not available to him,
shut down, completely brokenfrom the day and he would go
into his room and read bookswhile mom was at grad school,
(23:03):
getting her master's degree.
That was a season that I have areally hard time.
Being kind to myself aboutforgiving myself for that time.
It was never that Iintentionally looked at my son
and said, can't do it.
(23:23):
I'd rather just sit here in mychair.
It wasn't that at all.
I was stuck in depression.
And for that reason, Father'sDay can be hard, because I don't
have a perfect track record.
I've always wanted to do rightby my kids, but I was a very
(23:45):
broken man in that season, and Iwas not everything that my son
needed me to be.
And that hurts.
Yeah.
Especially looking at where heis in life now and some of the
struggles that he's beenwrestling through.
It's hard for me to not look atthat and say, that's my fault.
Yeah.
And it's not, that is justflawed logic to think that the
(24:09):
struggles he's having right noware because of me.
Is it part of it?
Sure.
But am I the sum total cause ofAll that he's wrapped up in?
No, I'm not.
Yeah.
And I need to have a balancedview of that.
It's so easy for me to be sohard on myself and beat myself
(24:31):
up for not being what my kidneeded me to be in that time.
But frankly, just getting upevery day and surviving and
making it through the day, thatwas the best I could do for him.
It's not like I stayed there, Ieventually did leave, I sought
mental health help, I pridemyself in dealing with that
(24:56):
darkness and not allowing it toovertake me anymore, but there
was a time where it was verydark.
And.
I hate that, but that's part ofmy kid's story.
Jim (25:08):
Yeah, that's the nuance of Father's Day, right?
We talked about that a littlebit in the forgiveness episode,
and I hope you've gotten to apoint where you can forgive
that, but you did the best thatyou could.
In that season, it just wasn'tenough.
So now that feels like a regretas a dad, I think, I think a lot
(25:30):
of times you just have to belike, you know what I screwed
up, but I also I was just tryingto survive and the fact that I
didn't kill myself or dosomething awful.
Ben (25:43):
Right.
I'm still here.
Jim (25:46):
I think you just can't beat yourself up about that.
Don't let that stop you frombeing Yeah.
Today, you talked in our lastepisode about sort of that
progress that you felt like yourson was making and that he
agreed to sort of step into thisprogram to help him get some
(26:10):
help.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You talked about.
Those feelings of guilt and isthis my fault?
How has that felt as a, as a dadto experience that?
Is there guilt that you stillfeel in that situation or have
you moved past that?
Ben (26:27):
I think I've really made a lot of progress.
I'd love to sit here and sayI've completely moved past it,
not an issue anymore, but whenyou see your son struggle and
you see.
him make the choices that my sonhas been making.
It's like, you just wantsomething to explain it away.
(26:50):
Something that makes it makesense because it just doesn't.
It's in that moment of justneeding an answer, it's easy to
say, Oh, it's my fault.
But that's not reality.
Did I have a part in his?
Downfall.
Perhaps I did because I was nottaking care of myself and I was
(27:13):
not available for that season,but it was a season and after
that season, it was night andday.
My son and I would go out tobreakfast at least once a month
before school.
I directed the soccer programthat he was a part of, and I am
by no means athletic.
That was the thing that I didbecause it was a father son
(27:36):
opportunity.
Sure.
Sure.
I encouraged him to go tocounseling and to take part.
I sat with him in sessions.
Yes, I had a rough patch there,but that was not the defining
mark of my fatherhood.
And that's what I just have tohold on to in that moment.
It is hard because I have beenadvocating hard for him behind
(27:57):
the scenes in ways that he'llprobably not understand or
appreciate until he's grown.
Just because I haven't been ableto talk with him or have that
ongoing relationship that weonce had, it doesn't mean that I
stopped being his dad.
Right.
I've been working to get him thehelp he needs.
(28:20):
Hmm.
And I'm not going to stop.
The amount of vile and hatredand all of that is certainly a
bit much and that's hard, buthe's also hurting and being an
adopted kid is hard and I knowthat factors in that.
So there's just so much at playthat makes.
(28:44):
Father's Day hard, and itcertainly brings all of that to
the surface, especially in ayear like this year where it has
been very challenging with myson.
Jim (28:55):
Yeah, I was thinking an important point in all of that
is sometimes there is atemptation to define whether or
not you are a good father by howyour kid turns out.
Right, yeah.
The results of fatherhood.
Yeah.
For lack of a better term.
And I'm sorry, but you may haveto bleep me, but that's
(29:16):
bullshit.
It is.
Yes.
We can't control at the end ofthe day.
What are kids do?
And there are physiologicalthings that can impact your
kids.
There are environmental thingsthat can impact your kids.
You can't take onus for that anymore than somebody whose kid
turns out great.
(29:37):
Because a lot of times thepeople whose kids they think
turned out great is because itwas.
A pressure centric achievementbased family that says you have
to be a doctor or you have to bea lawyer or you have to be a,
the president of the UnitedStates and the entire
(29:58):
relationship is based aroundmaking sure that your kid can
make you proud.
You think, look at my kid andhow successful they are.
And you don't even realize that.
How much they hate you rightbecause your entire relationship
has been defined around makingsure I'm sorry But that they
make you look right.
(30:19):
Yeah, it's all about carrying onthe family legacy Yeah, so I do
feel like I've been a good dad,but that is not because my kids
are perfect No, by no meansquite the opposite.
I literally the first day ofkindergarten.
I got a call from the principalThe day hadn't even started.
It was like a bus ride to theschool issue.
(30:43):
And this is after havingprobably every other day for a
season.
It was honestly every day that Iwas getting calls from the
school about my oldest son.
And now I think, Oh, my sweetyoung boy, he's going to go to
school and it's going to be.
Better.
My kid, man, both of my kids, ithas been such a struggle since
(31:07):
day one.
Every year for the last 12years, I have faced a challenge
with one or both kids that if Iwas determining being a good dad
on.
Yeah.
Oh, that's good.
I'm not a good dad.
In fact, I'm kind of a crappydad.
Don't do that to yourself.
(31:27):
You can't, you can't do that toyourself.
Oh
Ben (31:29):
yeah.
For me, a big realization thatI've had this year, and this is
actually from a good friend ofmine, Aaron.
I spend a lot of time.
Asking big questions with Aaron.
Like he's the type of friend whohas the capacity to hear a
question, no matter howdifficult it is or how loaded it
(31:50):
is, and still be with me in thatmoment and unpack the question
in a nonjudgmental way, I justcame to realize that I had this
view of fatherhood andparenthood of.
If I put in A, thenmathematically I'm going to get
result B, because that's howlife works, right?
(32:14):
Outcomes, like it's predictable,like there's a method to things.
The truth is there's no methodor predictableness about kids.
It's a crapshoot.
It is a total crapshoot.
I once heard the phrase, there'sno such thing as bad kids,
there's only bad parents.
And hear me out.
I don't like the label bad tobegin with, but I've just
(32:36):
learned that the opposite istrue.
Like, no, that's not it at all.
Just because a kid has badbehavior doesn't mean that he
has a bad parent that hasn'ttaught him the ways.
No, not at all.
Here's the thing about kids,man.
They have free will to choosewhatever they want to do.
Yeah.
And just because I have put inthe very best effort and just
(32:59):
because.
You could not handpick a bettermom and dad for our kids and
their unique needs and theirchallenges that they face.
All that being the case doesn'tmean that they're going to just
fall in line with myexpectations for them.
Yeah.
They are humans just as much asI am with the capacity to choose
(33:23):
and to make decisions and tochoose wrong.
Yeah.
I mean Whether they know theyare or not is debatable, but
just the realization that I cangive them my very best.
It doesn't mean that it's goingto be received.
Yeah.
And lived out.
Jim (33:44):
And ultimately, that's the goal of parenting is, in the
beginning, you make all thedecisions and, You do all the
things they literally wouldn'tsurvive without you, or at least
somebody taking care of them.
But over time, the goal is toequip them to be able to make
decisions themselves.
And for me, part of parenting.
(34:06):
Is allowing them to makemistakes, sometimes even big
mistakes, as long as it's notgonna main killer dismember,
then it's like, that's a reallybad idea and I'll tell them why
it's a bad idea, but they get itstuck in their head.
One of the greatest tools forteaching a lesson is the
experience of having to dealwith the consequences of your
(34:29):
own actions, right?
Yeah.
You said earlier.
I find the opposite to be true,referring to there are no bad
kids, only bad parents.
Are you saying that there's nobad parents?
Or was that
Ben (34:42):
It's a very Because I
Jim (34:44):
disagree.
There are absolutely badparents.
Absolutely,
Ben (34:48):
there are.
And I'm not dismissing that.
I'm not saying there are no badparents.
Jim (34:53):
The intent is, if I'm understanding correctly, that
the parents, Aren't necessarilythe reason why a kid might turn
out a way one way or another.
Ben (35:01):
That's more what I'm getting at.
And I know that's a loadedphrase to begin with just even
labeling something as bad.
I feel like is getting into somedangerous hot water.
Jim (35:13):
I don't like labeling kids as bad.
I have zero problem withlabeling a parent as bad.
There are some bad parents outthere, period.
There are.
Absolutely.
Bad parents.
Yes.
Labeling a kid is bad.
Their brain is still developing.
Ben (35:29):
It's very deterministic.
Jim (35:30):
They're trying to figure themselves out in a world and
sometimes, especially when theydo have bad parents who have
neglected them or put them in aposition where they are in fight
or flight mode, right?
They make bad decisions becauseof the environment that they're
in.
Um, I don't think that thatmakes them a bad kid.
(35:51):
So I am kind of prone to saying,I don't want a hundred percent
say that there's no bad kids,regardless of whether it's their
fault or not.
Some kids are truly psychoticand I don't think I would have a
problem calling them a bad kid.
It's just sad how they gotthere.
(36:12):
And it might be as simple aslike a tumor in their brain that
makes them Yeah.
Way more aggressive or, somebodywho just doesn't have those
emotions.
You don't see the harm in, intruly hurting somebody else.
A true psychopath is rare, butif you're born without that
capacity, I agree.
(36:34):
It feels funny to, to call,especially a kid bad, but man,
at some point or another, maybeit's just a nuance that isn't
important, but know.
Parents can be bad.
Ben (36:44):
Yeah, I would agree.
I mean, hello, that's why I havethe kids that I have.
Let's just be honest.
Jim (36:51):
Yeah.
Parents abuse.
Parents neglect.
Parents take advantage.
Yep.
Parents have done some terriblethings to their kids.
So they get to be called bad andworse.
Yeah.
But yeah, that is interesting.
I think that's why both of uskind of have a problem with
labeling a kid bad.
But parents, man, you shouldknow better by now.
Ben (37:13):
Yes.
Jim (37:13):
So there
Ben (37:14):
is truth to that.
to that,
Jim (37:15):
but there's generational trauma to that, right?
Impact that.
Ben (37:18):
Yeah.
The worst parent that you canthink of is probably the worst
parent because they had theworst parent.
A lot of times that's true.
I mean, at some point though,you have to be the cycle
breaker, not the cycle maker.
Ooh, that was deep,
Jim (37:33):
profound, love it.
Just because you've been througha traumatic experience doesn't
mean you can't use that.
You can help other people.
You can be the cycle breaker andthat's what we get the
opportunity to do as dads.
It's the most important thingyou're ever going to do if
you're a dad.
Oh yeah.
(37:53):
It's a big deal.
It is.
So, you're such a good dad, Ben.
Ben (37:59):
I try to believe that.
It's harder to believe in somemoments, but I would agree.
Jim (38:07):
You know, I talked in an earlier episode about, like, the
wall that you have surroundingyour feelings and your
personhood.
Mm hmm.
And we all have low points inour wall.
It's tough.
And it's interesting as I hearyou pause, it feels like that's
(38:27):
kind of a low point in yourwall.
Ben (38:29):
Oh, it absolutely is.
Jim (38:31):
I want to tell myself that I'm a good dad, but I don't know
if I believe it yet.
Ben (38:36):
Yeah.
I'm a good girl Dad.
I know that I'm crushing it withmy daughter.
I don't have any doubt orquestion in my mind about that.
I love the relationship that Ihave with her.
But when I look at my son, who'sjust so quickly transitioning
into adulthood, and separatingfrom us, which is natural, it's
(38:56):
Should happen, but the contextin which that's happening is so
hard and knowing that though Ihave worked on myself and
improved and I'm not the personthat I was 10 years ago, he was
around and he witnessed.
His dad at his lowest and thatthat's hard for a kid and so I
(39:21):
will always have a hesitancy ifsomebody tells me that I'm a
good dad, I'll be like, yeah,but I wasn't always.
That is one of my biggestregrets in life.
If not, my biggest regret is notseeking help sooner.
But that's the thing withdepression.
(39:43):
You get stuck in a rut and youdon't think there can be
anything better.
And to even venture out and seekhelp is a miracle in itself.
Yeah, it was hard, but eventhough that season was hard, I
have to, I have to cling to thegood memories because I was not
(40:06):
completely absent from my son'slife in that season.
Not at all.
I fondly remember a weekendwhere Andy was.
working on a class project orwas out of town for something
related to school.
And I took my son to B dubs forthe first time.
(40:26):
It was his first wingexperience.
And then we came home and wewatched Pirates of the
Caribbean.
And I was at a pretty low point,but I still was able to rally
and be that for my son.
It's not completely a failedcause, and that's what I need to
(40:48):
cling to in those moments whereit feels like it's a lost cause.
In this season of life, yeah,things are pretty tricky with my
son, and it's throwing me for aloop every day, and I, I hate
it.
But I just have to hold on tohope that this isn't going to be
forever, and that things canimprove, and to be open to that.
(41:12):
That's the hardest part ofFather's Day for me, is just
maintaining that openness, thatLife can be good again as a dad
with my son.
I know that on like a mentallevel, but to really believe
that things can get better andthat this is not beyond hope.
(41:37):
Father's Day's loaded this year,for sure.
Jim (41:42):
Do you think that you would feel the same way if you had a
better relationship with yourson today?
About not being a good dad.
Ben (41:53):
If I can own part of something and be able to explain
it as somehow my fault or myissue, or if I can put my stamp
of ownership on it, somehow itmakes it more tolerable because
it's something that I caused.
But at the same time, to answeryour question, I really don't
(42:15):
know.
That's a good question.
Jim (42:18):
Let me frame it a different way.
I tried my absolute hardest tosucceed.
At Edward Jones so far out ofthe comfort zone and putting
myself out there did the bestthat I could and I still failed,
(42:38):
but I still feel like.
Not only was it not good enough,but I must just not be good
enough.
So if it's based on how hard youtried, that's you as a dad where
you tried the best that youcould in the, Situation that you
(42:59):
were in, but now you have thesenegative results, so you can't
help but think, well, that justmust mean because I'm a bad dad.
Sure.
We talked about pulling theselfish and eating the peanuts
when you're sitting there.
It sounds like maybe there wassome season of that, but was it
really enough that it would bethe cause of the spot that
(43:22):
you're sitting in?
Ben (43:23):
Yeah.
That's a good point.
Probably not.
Jim (43:26):
Probably not.
What I guess what I'm trying tosay in all of that is I, I can
sit here and say you're a gooddad because I think that you
have taken the steps to giveyour kid all the opportunities
to make the right decisions.
Yeah.
But you can't force them to walkthrough those doors.
Ben (43:43):
They have free stinking will.
Jim (43:46):
But I can't fault you for that gut feeling of yeah.
Questioning whether or notyou're a good dad.
Yeah.
Ben (43:52):
And in those moments of questioning, I need to just
cling to facts and not justemotion because when my son was
not receiving the level of carehe desperately needed, when all
of this began, I didn't just.
Sit back and let that happen.
Oh, gosh, no.
(44:12):
I went before the county mentalhealth board and I said, this is
the experience that we had, thisis the result that's had on my
son do better.
And you know what?
They heard me.
And for kids in similarcircumstances, they started to
(44:33):
get the help they needed.
It stinks that it had to come atthe cost of my son, not getting
help, but I could have just satback and said, Oh, that sucks.
So we had to go through that.
I didn't, I said, that wasn'tokay.
And I'm going to go do somethingabout this.
(44:54):
And I got to sit down with the.
Executive director of the mentalhealth commission.
Am I a bad dad?
No, bad dads.
Don't do that kind of thing.
Is my kid struggling?
Yeah, he is.
And it's the hardest thing towatch as a dad.
It hurts me to see him struggle.
(45:15):
But I hold on to hope that therewill come a day when he receives
the level of care that he needs.
And when he has a right andcorrect view of our
relationship.
And until then, I'm just goingto keep fighting and keep being
the best dad I can in the waysthat he allows me to.
(45:39):
I
Jim (45:40):
have this conversation with my wife a lot where she
struggles like you, where everyindiscretion of our kids, she
blames on her flaws as a mother.
Ben (45:52):
Yep.
It is so, so much what I do.
Jim (45:59):
It just hurts my heart to see how amazing of a mom she is.
In spite of the trauma of herchildhood, she's turning around
and I see this amazing womanbefore me who can't give
herself.
Credit.
I literally cannot get her tospeak the words.
(46:20):
I am a good mom that's that weakpoint in her wall because of the
neglect and trauma that she wentthrough as a little girl.
It's so important for her to bethe perfect mother that she can
never live up to her ownexpectations, but she has such a
great mom.
(46:41):
If it's Father's Day, so we'regoing back to the dads.
Like if you're out there feelinglike you're a bad dad because
your kids didn't turn out theway that you hoped they would
give yourself some forgiveness.
I mean, if you're the badparent, then right?
Like you can stuff it like, sureyou were a bad dad and maybe it
was your fault and you have todeal with that Yeah.
(47:03):
But if you tried your hardestand even if you were going
through a tough time and you hadto work 60 hours a week Because
you had to Put food on the tablenot because you wanted a nice
car or a bigger house But youliterally had to do it because
you just never got into a jobthat paid more than 16 an hour
Right, you had to work more toprovide for your family You have
(47:26):
to forgive the fact that youcouldn't be there as much as you
wanted for your kids and thatdoesn't work It doesn't make you
a bad dad, not at all.
It doesn't make you a bad dadthat your kid ended up getting
into drugs, that your kid endedup homeless on the streets, that
your kid ended up getting a girlpregnant as a 14 year old.
(47:48):
You can't control theirdecisions.
It doesn't make you a bad dad.
If you tried your best and youpointed your kids towards those
opportunities to make the rightdecision, you can't force them
to do it.
And if you do, that's going toscrew them up too.
You're a good dad.
(48:08):
Hear that today, unless you'rethe bad one and work on
yourself.
I am guessing if you'relistening to real men hug,
you're probably, there's like a99 percent chance you're a damn
good dad, that you're a good dadand you're And you're a good
mom.
So happy father's day.
Ben (48:29):
And even if it isn't happy father's day, how about that?
Just father's day, father's dayto you.
It's father's day.
Yes.
We'll start a new trend,
Jim (48:42):
man.
I, it is, it's a complicatedday, but I.
I love being a dad and we knowthat Ben and I support you as a
father.
Mothers, we support you.
You got this.
This too shall pass.
If you're going through thosetough situations, give yourself
(49:04):
some grace.
Ben (49:05):
I'm right there with you.
Cause I am.
I'm struggling to give myselfgrace, but it's okay.
Jim (49:11):
I give you grace, Ben.
Thanks.
Take us out.
Ben (49:16):
Roland Warren said, Good fathers do three things.
They provide, they nurture, andthey guide.
Nowhere in there does it saythat their kids turn out
perfect, or that they doeverything right.
So if you're a dad, the missionis pretty simple.
Provide, nurture, guide.
Guide.
(49:37):
If you do those three things,you're going to knock it out of
the ballpark.
Keep it up.
You're doing a great job and youdon't hear that often enough.
So keep at it to all the dadsout there.
And thanks for joining us todayon Real Men Hug.
Jim (49:52):
If you liked this episode, send it to a friend that you
think would benefit from it.
We want to reach as many peoplewith these positive messages,
these affirmations andencouragement to just be a
better person, be a better dad.
If it's resonating with you andyou haven't told somebody else
about it, why not?
We want other people to be ableto hear this and that is the
(50:14):
biggest thing.
Best way that you can support usis by letting other people know
about this podcast.
If it has touched you, if it hasencouraged you, if you tune in
every week, tell a friend, sendthem a link to the episode that
you liked, tell them you need tocheck out this podcast.
Thank you guys so much forlistening and remember real men
(50:36):
hug unless it's my youngest sonwho actually Really doesn't like
being hugged Which kills meinside
Ben (50:47):
Maybe for Father's Day, you'll get a hug this year.
Real men hug, and they also givethemselves grace for when
they're not perfect.
Jim (50:56):
Ben, I'm proud of you this entire episode.
You didn't pee on the floor asingle time.
You didn't even go to thebathroom between recordings.
I know.
Ben (51:07):
And I even drank, like, two cups of water.
Jim (51:09):
You could have done it, but I appreciate that you didn't.
Ben (51:14):
I don't even know how that started, but it's apparently a
thing now.
Jim (51:18):
The water's warm.
Ben (51:20):
Jump on in.
Jim (51:21):
Just not next to Ben.
Oh man, I gotta get out of here.
Yeah.
All right.
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