July 11, 2024 • 40 mins
In this episode of Real Men Hug, Ben and Jim explore the complex world of social media and its impact on parenting, politics, and mental health.
Ben and Jim reflect on how social media has become a double-edged sword, bringing both connectivity and complications. Ben shares a personal story about the regret of allowing his son access to Snapchat, highlighting the platform's potential to expose young users to harmful content, leading to a broader discussion on the influence of platforms like TikTok on their kids and themselves.
Parenting today is vastly different due to social media. Ben and Jim discuss the importance of open communication with their kids, setting boundaries, and balancing trust and vigilance. Ben also reveals how social media was a lifeline for him, helping him discover his ADHD and seek treatment, emphasizing the importance of managing anxiety and maintaining a supportive approach to parenting in the face of social media challenges.
The hosts discuss how social media often amplifies extreme views and creates echo chambers, stressing the importance of seeking diverse perspectives to foster a more balanced understanding of political issues. They also explore how focusing on positive interactions can mitigate some of the negative effects of social media.
As they wrap up, Ben and Jim acknowledge the pioneering role parents today play in the digital age. There’s no instruction manual for raising kids with social media, and they emphasize the importance of learning together and supporting each other through these challenges.
And hey, if you love what you hear, consider supporting the show at buymeacoffee.com/realmenhug. Your contributions keep us going and help us bring you more episodes filled with laughter, insights, and relatable stories. Join us in growing and strengthening our community of real men who aren't afraid to hug it out. Thank you for being a vital part of our journey!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jim (00:03):
Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Jim and I'm Ben.
Oh, welcome to the show.
The show, the show.
We're back in it, Ben.
We are back in it.
Here we are in a brand newstudio.
(00:24):
How's it feel, Ben?
Ben (00:26):
It feels very brand new and sterile kind of
Jim (00:29):
our show has been so successful that we bought a new
studio
Ben (00:35):
Yes, this show has generated oodles of revenue of
dollars just
Jim (00:41):
Swimming in it.
Ben (00:42):
Yes.
So thank you to all of oursupporters couldn't have done it
without you
Jim (00:46):
We have we have people that listen to our show though every
time it hits the air It's goodstuff.
Ben (00:54):
I would rather have that than oodles of money and cash
flow.
Jim (00:59):
I have loved some of the comments that you guys have
sent.
It's the self deprecation of ourshow we're not topping the
charts.
Let's be honest In reality,though.
We we have a new studio becauseyou finally settled into the new
digs.
Ben (01:13):
It has been a process.
Jim (01:16):
It'll be nice when you can like get the boxes put away and
add your sort of touch andflavor to it.
But definitely it feelsprofessional.
It does kind of miss the vibe ofthe loft that we had before.
Ben (01:29):
Yeah, that was very much like a college dorm room feel
almost.
This is professional.
Jim (01:35):
Professional production that we got going here at real
men hugs.
Thanks so much for joining ustoday.
We were talking about.
Kind of what we wanted to coverand the whole idea of social
media, just the whole gamut sortof comes to mind because it
really is so pervasive in ourculture.
Anyways, it's really greatlyimpacted us and.
(01:59):
Obviously, even more so our, ourkids.
It's huge.
Ben (02:03):
Yes.
Unfortunately, and fortunately.
So at the same time,
Jim (02:09):
yeah, there are positives and negatives for sure of social
media, but man, especially whenit comes to parenting,
Ben (02:16):
yes.
It's changed so much.
It really has.
There
Jim (02:21):
are still things that haven't changed when it comes to
being a good parent, but so muchhas largely because of
technology and specificallysocial media.
Like you just can't raise kidsthe same as you used to.
So yeah.
As a, as a net whole, I feellike our world would probably be
(02:44):
a better place without socialmedia than with it.
I am kind of curious yourthoughts too.
Ben (02:50):
Yeah, I would change the adjective.
I don't think it would be abetter place.
I do think it would be a simplerplace.
Jim (02:58):
Sure, less complicated.
Ben (03:00):
Yes, I don't want to put a value judgment on it, whether
it's good or bad.
The moment you ascribe a good orbad to something, it gets messy,
really messy.
Jim (03:11):
You don't want to make a value judgment on social media
as a whole.
Ben (03:14):
Correct.
I would rather look at it fromthe perspective of simplicity
versus complexity somehow thatmakes it feel better.
Jim (03:23):
I have to imagine though, the platform makes a difference.
Definitely.
Are there some platforms thatyou would.
More readily say, this is justnot a good platform for my kid
to be on.
Ben (03:36):
125 percent
Jim (03:39):
and what platform or platforms would that be?
Ben (03:42):
That would be Snapchat, If I could go back and do one thing
differently, it would be.
Eliminate Snapchat from my son'sphone.
It's just a gateway to.
An unrestricted amount of,filth, drama, the opposite of
what we're trying to instill inour kids.
(04:04):
Snapchat is like a gateway toit.
You can find all kinds of thingson Snapchat.
Kids who are exposing themselvesin snaps to each other and those
things get screen recorded andshared amongst other kids.
And then you have plugs onSnapchat, which are on the snap
(04:25):
map.
If you look and see a plug, anelectrical plug icon, that's a
symbol for someplace that youcan go and get some nefarious
drug or substance or whateveryou want.
You can find it via the snap mapand plugs.
And so it's this uncensoredunrestricted gateway to so much
(04:51):
pain.
Some kids can handle it and it'sbeen fine, but then there's
other kids who just curiositygets the best of them and it
ends up taking them down a verylong.
hard road.
Sure.
It's really difficult to comeback from.
I would caution any parent Donot let your kid get Snapchat.
Jim (05:15):
And if you're not familiar with it, one of the kind of key
components of Snapchat is thatmessages and those pictures and
things like that disappear afterthey're viewed.
So you can.
Change like how long it stays onthe screen.
And obviously you can takescreenshots of it, but
(05:35):
ultimately the whole point isthat it disappears.
And it's hard not to think thatthat's sort of like an
intentional thing to keep thatlayer of privacy.
Now it does tell you whensomeone has taken a screenshot
of your content, so you at leasthave a heads up.
But once they take thatsnapshot, then.
(05:56):
There's nothing you can do aboutit.
And in fact, I think evenlegally, cases have shown, if
you sent it, then it'sessentially now their photo.
it's really scary, but you'reright.
Some people can be moreresponsible with it, but it's
such a dangerous thing.
there other ones?
Like I know Tik TOK is reallypopular and there's some
(06:18):
concerns about attention andsome of the messages that come
with that.
What do you think about thatone?
Ben (06:25):
It's just like any other social media platform with an
algorithm.
It tracks what you engage with.
It tracks what you, immediatelyswipe away from.
It tracks the, ads that youclick.
So it's, a super intelligent AI.
feeding you more and more ofwhat you want.
And anytime that that happens,you get hooked and you keep
(06:49):
watching.
There was one, skit for lack ofa better term on a tick tock
video of a husband and wife inbed, and one of them is
scrolling until two 30 in themorning.
And the other one just.
Falls asleep when they hit thepillow.
And it was just a funnycomparison of two types of
spouses in the world, one whostays up until two 30 and
(07:10):
scrolls and the other who fallsasleep when their head hits the
pillow.
And it's relatable becausethat's, that's my wife and I,
Jim (07:18):
that's my wife.
And I,
Ben (07:20):
I am the, I'm asleep as soon as my head hits the pillow.
Jim (07:24):
Isn't it funny that that's me too.
I'm curious what people thoughtwhen we both said there's one of
those in our relationship thatyou and I are the fall asleep
when the head hits the pillow.
Oh
Ben (07:34):
yeah.
I mean, it's.
Really thanks to my CPAPmachine.
I mean, once that air startsflowing, I'm a goner.
Jim (07:43):
I'm not saying that I never scroll on my phone in bed.
I do like, it's not an uncommonthing,
Ben (07:49):
I don't have a problem necessarily with Tik TOK.
I know that there's somegovernment measures.
They're trying to curtail thepresence of TikTok in America
because there's some Chinesecontrol of it.
I don't understand.
I think it's a fine app.
I think it's like anything else,you can get addicted to
(08:10):
anything.
I don't have a problem with itother than there was a time.
In the last couple of years thatI spent way too much time.
Jim (08:22):
It's interesting because part of it too, is not just
social media, but also the riseof the internet.
And now when it comes to mediasources, it makes a lot more
sense to compartmentalize youraudience.
You, you want to cater to thataudience and the audience ends
up being almost a customer.
Caricature of itself, becauseyou always have to do something
(08:46):
a little bit more extreme orsomething that riles people up
to keep them interested.
And so when you only consume onenews source, now all of a sudden
you end up in a very extremeposition without even realizing
that you're there as a country.
(09:06):
I think that's just, that's partof who we are is that we allow.
Some of those outside influencesand it's a business and it's an
app and it's something that wevoluntarily get into
Ben (09:18):
it's true
Jim (09:19):
I'm not trying to argue again because people are gonna
believe what they want tobelieve Yes, but but it's
amazing to me how people willhear something from their Select
new source, and they won't evenbother to entertain what other
information is out there.
Ben (09:39):
It's like speaking into a vacuum.
You only hear your voice and thevoice of the people that you're
closest to.
And you miss out on so manyother people's voices.
Yeah.
And I think that's where socialmedia can become problematic.
Cause if you're only amplifyingand giving ear to the voices you
(10:00):
agree with.
You're gonna miss out on a wholelot
Jim (10:04):
for sure.
Ben (10:05):
So yeah, I can see why that would be problematic but I still
don't know if it would be betterif the world would be better
without Social media because ifit wasn't social media, it would
be something else that we wouldfind to do the same thing it's
just the tribe mentality likeyou need a tribe and you're
(10:28):
gonna find a tribe whetherthat's Gathering in caves or
going on hunting trips togetheror for sure social media like so
I don't know that Eliminatingsocial media would somehow read
society of those things.
I think they'd pop up in otherways.
Jim (10:46):
I don't disagree with you, but I love that word.
And I've used that myself, thattribe mentality, that the
difference is with social mediabefore you mightn't have had a
tribal mentality, but it was atleast somewhat localized.
Ben (11:01):
True.
Jim (11:02):
So now.
The problem is before the news,you wanted to remain
respectable.
Otherwise you would lose a bigchunk of your audience versus
now it actually is better to bemore extreme.
So I guess social media and likethe news in general are sort of
tied together for me, but whereI do feel like it is worse is
(11:23):
that before you still were partof a smaller community.
So even if you leaned more inone direction than the other,
you still were trying to beacceptable within the community
in which things ran.
And so prevented some of theseextremes from coming out, but I
(11:46):
don't know, even as I talk, Iguess one area that it's
probably helpful is formarginalized groups.
Ben (11:52):
I would agree with that.
Jim (11:53):
Because if you're in a small community and you're the
only fill in the blank.
It's really hard to feel likeyou have a voice or a place.
In that regard, it's probablybeen better.
Ben (12:06):
My biggest discovery on social media was the fact that
adults can struggle with ADHDand that a lot of the symptoms
and things that I thought werejust weird quirks about me were
actually the symptoms and, andsigns that pointed to adult
(12:26):
ADHD, the constant anxiety loopsthat my brain would sometimes
get into.
And I just could not break freefrom and seeing videos of people
with ADHD and their doom piles.
I'm surrounded by doom pilesright now because I'm moving,
but that's besides the point.
(12:47):
When I do a project and Iwasn't.
treating my ADHD, my tools wouldjust sit wherever they ended up
and they would just be thereuntil all of eternity.
Like I would have a box in mycar to throw random things.
Then I would take that box outand put it in the garage next to
another box of random things.
(13:09):
And all these things that Ithought were just quirks about
Ben were actually Symptoms ofADHD.
I set an appointment with mydoctor's office.
They had a social worker who wastrained in.
diagnosing ADHD.
(13:29):
I went through the tests.
What do you know?
I was basically off the chartswith ADHD.
And so I started taking amedicine and some other
treatment for ADHD.
And it's been life changingrecently because of my heart
stuff, I had to stop taking myADHD med for a bit.
(13:52):
And that was.
Difficult, because I revertedback to unmedicated Ben with
raging anxiety and raging ADHD.
And that's not a good mix whenyou're moving and stressed,
stressed, and you've got a lotof projects to do.
It was really bad.
(14:13):
Had I not seen those videos, hadI not read those articles that
people were sharing on socialmedia, I don't know that it
would have ever crossed my mindthat, Oh, maybe this is ADHD
that I'm dealing with.
And my life drastically improvedthe moment that I sought
(14:34):
diagnosis and treatment and I'min a much better place because
of it.
Um, Yeah, that's due largely tosocial media.
Jim (14:43):
You're convincing me as we're doing this episode that
maybe there is a net positive.
It seems like while yes, socialmedia catches people on the
fringes and sometimes even makespeople who were on the fringes
worse than they were if itweren't for it.
It also catches people on thefringes that maybe wouldn't have
otherwise Been connected orfound that solution.
(15:07):
I think even back to my collegedays before there even social
media was in its fledglingstages.
This was back when you had tohave the dot edu address for
Facebook.
Zanga was king and it was, therewas a guy in the dorms that
never talked to anybody becausehe was deeply introverted.
(15:28):
But if you got on instantmessenger, And you had him
instant messenger folks, ifyou're under 40, just, uh, the
instant messaging service whereyou could send each other
effectively texts, DMS.
Yeah.
DM that's a better way of sayingbasically a DM specific
platform.
(15:48):
And yeah, it, it allowed him tobe able to do that.
It's so, it sounds like for aguy like you, that felt like he
was sort of an outsider in someof these ways, social media was
actually a huge way to connectto that.
Ben (16:00):
It was.
And anytime that you feel likean outsider, it creates so many
big questions and it fosters asense of loneliness.
Like, am I the only one who isstruggling with this?
Seeing those videos and postsand everything else just really
clarified for me that, no, I'mnot the only one.
(16:23):
There are other people my agethat are dealing with these
things.
And.
Who would have thought?
So, yeah, I mean, I think a lotof good can come from social
media.
Do you consider podcasts to bepart of social media?
Jim (16:43):
I think in the world that I had created where there was no
social media.
I think it almost would be likestepping back in time a little
bit to before some of the onesthat are a little more catered,
like the Facebook and tick tockand Snapchat and all that kind
of stuff, because, you know, Youknow, the, the direct messaging
(17:04):
with instant messenger, I thinkis less problematic because it's
more personal podcasts or thesame thing.
And there's some accountability,I think, in podcasts as well.
Just that it's, it's this.
Immortalized thing, you know,unlike Snapchat where it
disappears, it's something that,um, you tune into and there's
(17:26):
just a swath of podcasts outthere that you're not forced to
listen to just that one podcast,um, that, and it tends to be
topical and Hey, here issomething that maybe I know for
me, this podcast I've saidbefore would have been huge in
some of my, um, Early marriagedays, and especially when I was
(17:47):
going through stuff with thekids and my wife's postpartum
depression podcast would havebeen an amazing thing.
But again, even as we talk, I,while I think we need to circle
back to some of the negatives, Ithink of my own kid that when he
was really young.
Somewhere around 3rd or 4thgrade is when kids start getting
(18:09):
mean and judgmental and even ina positive light they just start
clicks.
That's when people find theirother people and somebody like
my kid who's trying to learn thesocial rules.
Falls outside of that.
He's more of the computer andthe Minecraft and cubing and VR
(18:33):
and all that kind of stuff wherethat's a lot more popular
nowadays and there is a groupfor it, but it wasn't until we
gave him a phone when he turned,not right when he turned 12, but
he was 12 when he got one.
And he also, with his own money,saved up to buy a VR headset
where he can game online withhis friends.
(18:56):
So now between getting on likeMinecraft and he'll have his
phone set up and they're all ona group chat together or they're
on VR together, he didn't reallyhave friends to speak of until
he had that.
Interconnectivity on theinternet where now he's got this
like solid group of friends thathe interacts with on a regular
(19:16):
basis.
I hear him like laughingdownstairs or a lot of times
when he'll do the voice chat.
I digress in all of that just tosay that I, speaking of my own
kid, like it's actually been apositive thing.
So you asked me what I woulddwindle it down to.
And I don't know, I'm tornbecause I see how there are kids
(19:40):
who are dead today as a directresult of social media and
adults and adults.
And that to me is just a tragicthing, but there are also.
Some of those like introvertedkids or neurodivergent kids that
social media has been a lifelinefor them that they didn't have
(20:00):
when you and I were growing upthat it's hard for me to say, do
you just get rid of it?
And you can't.
It's here.
So How do we adapt?
I think it's more about havingstructure and guidelines and
limitations to make sure thatwe're more careful with this.
And I think my kid is probablygoing to do a better job with
(20:23):
his kids than I did because I'mjust trying to figure it out.
It's brand new to us.
Yeah.
It is.
I don't know.
I'm curious for you though,because us, Xennials as they
call us, we didn't grow up witha lot of social media or even
the internet wasn't honestlysomething that most people had
(20:45):
as kids.
So I
Ben (20:47):
was super nerdy.
Jim (20:49):
You had the internet as a, as a little kid.
Oh yeah.
I feel like of the two of us inthis room, that would have been
a lot more meaningful for you tohave the world at your
fingertips.
So I'm just curious how, how theinternet and the rise of social
media has impacted you.
Ben (21:07):
I go back to eighth grade.
Before there was the internet aswe know it today, there were
localized bulletin boardsystems, BBSs.
And it sounded like a faxmachine every time you dialed in
to connect to the internet.
You would hear the beeping justlike you would calling a fax
(21:27):
number.
I just remember coming home fromschool and trying my best to
beat my brother to the computer.
Cause we had one phone line, onecomputer and whoever got there
first, it was theirs for, Ithink we had like an hour and a
half time limit.
We would tie up the phone lineNobody could call us and if
(21:49):
somebody picked up the phone tomake a phone call it would knock
us off of the internet So it waslike Held together with
toothpicks type of internet, butI loved it.
And by the time eighth graderolled around, I had found IRC,
internet relay chat.
(22:11):
This is pre AOL instantmessenger.
It's all text based chat roomsaround the country and the
world.
And I found myself exposed todifferent time zones.
And that was a new concept andtalking to people from Florida
and North Carolina and all thesedifferent states.
(22:34):
And it was awesome.
I had very early exposure to theinternet and it was very
formative.
And kind of gave me a baselineto work from.
That may impact my view ofsocial media a little bit,
because if you recall fromprevious episodes, I was by no
(22:54):
means a cool kid growing up.
I was extremely nerdy, still am.
Jim (22:58):
Refer to our geek culture episode.
Yes,
Ben (23:01):
there you go.
I found so much connectionliterally and relationally
through the early days of theinternet and it has been very
formative.
I think that definitely taintsmy perspective a little bit and
helps me see the positive morethan the negative.
(23:23):
But that being the case, youwere talking about the number of
dead kids because of theinternet and because of social
media specifically.
I think there's a lot of deadrelationships because of social
media.
Just this concept of ghostingpeople is a very social media
(23:45):
specific phenomenon.
If you had an uncle that, youknow, had political views that
you disagreed with pre Facebook,there may not have even been a
stage for that to come out thatyou had these differing views.
It probably wouldn't have beenan issue Except in conversations
(24:07):
around the dinner table aroundelection season, maybe but now
if you have an uncle who postsabout a candidate that you
despise and you now Feel likeyou can't have anything to do
with said uncle that's Prettyridiculous, but I see it often
(24:28):
Yeah on social media people getso into that tribe mentality You
That it clouds their ability tointeract with anybody who sees
things differently.
And so, now all of a sudden, theclout that you get from being
(24:49):
part of an echo chamber that'sechoing all of your beliefs,
somehow becomes more importantand more relevant than any
relational depth that you mayhave outside of social media.
So, I think In a lot of ways,social media is harmful because
of that.
(25:10):
I would say from a relationalperspective, it's probably
pretty close to 50, 50, 50percent helpful, 50 percent
detrimental to relationships.
and I think around electionseason, especially it.
Or when there's a globalpandemic, it becomes a lot less
(25:33):
helpful.
Jim (25:34):
Before.
We had social media.
You could disagree oncandidates.
now that we have social media,people have found, Oh, I get
punished when I say somethingthat sounds too right or too
left.
Biden is a jibbering nonsensicaldementia patient.
(25:55):
I saw somebody had posted, aside by side image of, Trump
doing the same hand motions asHitler.
Yeah.
And so it forces you to pick onesingle side.
You can't have any nuancebecause if you do, then now all
of a sudden I feel like anoutsider.
Most people don't want to feelthat way.
(26:16):
So the nuance gets lost and theneventually we start demonizing
aspects of the other side.
when I hop on to check the news,I actually check it's five or
six different websites.
So fox news, I get on CNN.
The associated press, I get onus and Canada news from the BBC
(26:40):
and then I'll get on like an Mlive or a wood TV sort of thing.
You again, have thatAggrandizing of like this person
is terrible and I have to hatethis person and compare them to
the the worst person that I can.
I think we've lost that capacityto be able to sit down and say,
Okay, what do we agree on?
(27:02):
Or how can we come to aconclusion together without?
Fighting, right?
And I don't think either side isparticularly good at that
anymore.
No, I don't think so.
So I'm curious though.
You had mentioned the other sideof it is the impact that it has
on children.
(27:22):
When we were kids, we could dosomething stupid.
And only the people that werethere would remember it, whereas
now your kid screws up and it'son Snapchat or Instagram or
wherever.
It's something that anybody andeverybody can see and it never
goes away.
(27:42):
You also never just get to gohome and escape it because it's
still there on your phone Youdon't get that break.
That's something a luxury thatwe had as kids that our kids
don't have anymore Your kids arefarther along.
I'm curious to hear you reflecton the impact that you think
that has had on your kids
Ben (28:05):
well, my daughter is 15 and We did allow her to have
Snapchat with the condition ofAndy being in her contacts and
Andy being able to check herphone at any time to, uh, just
see how things are going.
(28:25):
And that's been super helpful.
And there have been several ofmy daughter's friends who got
themselves into heaps of troublebecause of that very thing.
Because.
When something goes on theinternet, on social media, it
usually stays there for quite along time and you can't just
(28:49):
make it go away.
She's watched and seen severalfriends struggle and have to
overcome these differentreputations that they've earned
for themselves based on whatthey put on social media.
For our daughter, she tended toput her stuff out, in person to
(29:12):
whoever would listen.
And that is its own challenge.
But in that I'm grateful thatthere's no, documentation of it.
Like there would be if she didtake to social media to air
those rants and thoughts andeverything else.
She's very fortunate that shehad enough discipline to not do
(29:33):
that.
Because unfortunately there area lot of kids that just, Don't
have that foresight or wisdom.
Maybe it's the differencebetween boys and girls, but I
can certainly look and see frommy son's experience things that
he's put on social media thathave already come back to bite
(29:53):
him or have the potential to Andi'm just like Yeah, whoa, why
would you ever put that outthere?
So it's a it's a very realconcern and again I'm grateful
for my daughter and her Healthyapproach to social media she
does talk with Andy quite a bitabout things She encounters on
(30:16):
Instagram or snapchat and Ithink that's the main difference
maker.
Sure It's to keep that open lineof communication with your kids.
That's so vital.
Jim (30:28):
You had mentioned that some of the Snapchat stuff was
detrimental, in the case of yourson and the exposure and the
unfettered access to all thedirtiest corners of the world.
As you reflect on that, I'mcurious, do sometimes you wonder
what if we had just.
outright banned any kind ofsocial media.
Ben (30:50):
One of the most frustrating parts of my parenting journey
has been allowing our son accessto Snapchat.
We'd made that decision becausewe talked with other parents of
his friends and they let theirkids have it.
It got to a point where it wasvery much a.
a Joneses kind of situation.
Everybody was doing it.
(31:12):
Everybody's kids had Snapchat.
We were among the few that weresticking our toes in the dirt.
And we just got to a point whereit was exhausting to keep doing
that.
So we're like, fine, you canhave Snapchat.
It's been rough for my son.
From that perspective, I wouldabsolutely agree that our world
(31:37):
without social media, our worldwithout Snapchat specifically, I
think would be a much better,brighter place.
I think Snapchat is just asource of a lot of brokenness
and a lot of.
Anytime you have an app wherethe main goal is to provoke or
(32:00):
just put something out there forjust a moment, it's a perfect
hiding spot.
Anytime that that's the goal, Ijust don't think that's healthy.
That just creates a lot ofopportunity for hurt.
Jim (32:15):
Kids can do that.
Well, even if the app isn'tintentionally structured and
created to do that.
Have you heard the term Finstabefore?
Ben (32:25):
Uh, no.
Jim (32:27):
Finsta is fake Instagram.
So kids have two or three orwhatever Instagrams.
They've got the one for theirfriends.
And that's the one where theypost anything and everything.
And then they've got their fakeInstagram, which is the one that
their parents said they had tofollow them on Instagram.
And so they just make sure thatthey post some of the more
(32:49):
vanilla things on the fakeInstagram so that the parents
don't know that they're postinga lot of other worse things.
And sometimes even that can bemaybe not intentionally
underhanded on the kid's part.
It's just, Hey, maybe my parentsdon't.
Want to see some of this stuff,or this is really more for my
(33:10):
friends.
And this is for like my aunt andmy grandpa.
And these are just the, Hey, wewent on vacation.
Here's a picture.
And these are more of the, causeit might not even be, you know,
you're, you're 21 and you'redrinking with your friends and
you just don't want anybody toget the wrong idea about that.
So you have, you're moreprofessional, but a lot of times
(33:33):
it's because kids are hidingstuff
Ben (33:35):
for sure.
My last closing thought aboutsocial media, from the context
of being a parent,unfortunately, the social media
stuff, the Snapchat, all ofthose things have become a
source of great anxiety as Iconsider my kids and their
(33:56):
engagement with them.
That anxiety does not always.
Help me be the best parent thatI can be.
And so instead of approaching myson with unconditional positive
regard, I'm now approaching himfrom the perspective of he has
(34:16):
Snapchat.
I know he's into stuff heshouldn't be.
And I really hate that.
As much as snapchat is theproblem.
I think My anxiety is also theproblem.
I think parents in today's ageneed to Find a way to hold That
anxiety in such a way that itdoes not build a wall between
(34:40):
them and their kids.
Cause I think for sure that'shappened with my son and I,
because of my anxiety and worryand fear and everything else
motivated by his.
Presence on social media and hisengagement with it.
I don't think I've done the bestjob of handling that, which then
(35:01):
in turns impacts my ability toparent well.
So as much as Snapchat is theproblem, I think parents
response to it is also a factorthat needs to be considered.
Jim (35:15):
You feel like it's creating an artificial barrier between.
I
Ben (35:20):
think so.
And then it's also more than theartificial barrier.
It's creating this overwhelmingcolossal Sense of anxiety and
anytime that you approachparenting or any pursuit in life
from an anxious perspective It'sjust not going to go.
(35:41):
Well, like you're going to betoo occupied in the worry you're
going to be too occupied in thethe concern and the wondering
and the worrying and theObsessing about various things
That you miss out on Your kid.
Jim (35:58):
Yeah,
Ben (35:59):
and at the end of the day, I really do believe that as a
parent part of my role is tohave an Unconditional positive
regard of my kids.
Yeah that no matter what theyget into I still love them
They're still valuable and Noamount of social media darkness
(36:24):
can change that.
Yeah, and You That's just been avery hard thing for me to
maintain in the face of theanxiety from social media.
Jim (36:34):
Sure.
I think it's, it's a trustthing, right?
The neighborhood that I live inmy kids now, I have a nine year
old and a 12 year old that evenwith a nine year old, as long as
kind of, I know what he's doing,if he wants to quick bike down
the street to hang out with thekids with the pool, or he wants
to go to the park, I'll let himdo it.
Ben (36:54):
Mm hmm.
Jim (36:55):
But the problem with social media is that it's not a safe
neighborhood, right?
As a parent you are exposingthem to the worst of Everything.
Yeah, and so to be able to giveup that trust it's that balance
of you know They need to learn,right?
Part of parenting is allowingyour kids to be exposed to
(37:18):
things so that they can learnhow to deal with them so that
someday when they're on theirown, it's not their first time
ever getting into social mediaor their first time changing a
tire or whatever it is, we'retrying to equip them to do that.
But social media is about thescariest possible thing because
it's not a safe neighborhood.
(37:40):
It's hard to let go ofprotecting your kid and trusting
them to do the right thing,because if they do it wrong, the
consequences are up to andincluding fatal.
And that's terrifying as aparent.
So I think you are right to havethat anxiety, but I agree that
(38:07):
you have to be able to at somepoint trust your kid and don't
let your fear become an obstacleto having a healthy relationship
with your kid.
Ben (38:17):
Definitely.
Well said
Jim (38:20):
If you are one of those late thirties, early forties
parents, we sympathize.
It is so tough.
Ben (38:29):
It is.
And there is no instructionmanual because.
This hasn't been done before.
No, we are the pioneers and itis so difficult.
Jim (38:39):
I already told my oldest.
You're going to find out that itis not fair because we are
learning things with you that bythe time we get to.
Your little brother, we willhave learned, and he might get
some privileges earlier than youdid.
And it's sorry, but that's justthe reality of being the oldest.
(39:00):
Yep.
It's, it's not that we trust onemore or less.
We're trying to figure it outand be a little bit more careful
the first time around.
We, we definitely sympathize.
And even for our youngeraudience, hopefully now that
you've had more access.
access to social media, thosedigital natives, as they call
them, maybe you'll do a betterjob than we did of raising your
kids when it comes to socialmedia.
Ben (39:23):
well, thanks for joining us on this episode of real men hug.
We're done and we're out ofhere.
Real men hug, but they also knowwhen to finally end the dang
show.
Jim (39:36):
You made it sound like we're just done with like, this
was the last episode
Ben (39:40):
of
Jim (39:41):
real men
Ben (39:41):
hug.
See you guys.
It was a good one.
Nice.
Jim (39:45):
That one's getting cut out, Ben.
Ben (39:49):
We'll see.
Jim (39:50):
Thanks for all the fish,
Ben (39:53):
the fish.
Jim (39:54):
If you don't know, you don't know it's from hitchhikers
guide to the galaxy.
Ben (39:58):
You are the second person to quote that movie today.
Be sure to check out the nextepisode of Real Men Hug.
Thanks for listening.
Have a good one.
Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Jim and I'm Ben.
Oh, welcome to the show.
The show, the show.
We're back in it, Ben.
We are back in it.
Here we are in a brand newstudio.
(00:24):
How's it feel, Ben?
Ben (00:26):
It feels very brand new and sterile kind of
Jim (00:29):
our show has been so successful that we bought a new
studio
Ben (00:35):
Yes, this show has generated oodles of revenue of
dollars just
Jim (00:41):
Swimming in it.
Ben (00:42):
Yes.
So thank you to all of oursupporters couldn't have done it
without you
Jim (00:46):
We have we have people that listen to our show though every
time it hits the air It's goodstuff.
Ben (00:54):
I would rather have that than oodles of money and cash
flow.
Jim (00:59):
I have loved some of the comments that you guys have
sent.
It's the self deprecation of ourshow we're not topping the
charts.
Let's be honest In reality,though.
We we have a new studio becauseyou finally settled into the new
digs.
Ben (01:13):
It has been a process.
Jim (01:16):
It'll be nice when you can like get the boxes put away and
add your sort of touch andflavor to it.
But definitely it feelsprofessional.
It does kind of miss the vibe ofthe loft that we had before.
Ben (01:29):
Yeah, that was very much like a college dorm room feel
almost.
This is professional.
Jim (01:35):
Professional production that we got going here at real
men hugs.
Thanks so much for joining ustoday.
We were talking about.
Kind of what we wanted to coverand the whole idea of social
media, just the whole gamut sortof comes to mind because it
really is so pervasive in ourculture.
Anyways, it's really greatlyimpacted us and.
(01:59):
Obviously, even more so our, ourkids.
It's huge.
Ben (02:03):
Yes.
Unfortunately, and fortunately.
So at the same time,
Jim (02:09):
yeah, there are positives and negatives for sure of social
media, but man, especially whenit comes to parenting,
Ben (02:16):
yes.
It's changed so much.
It really has.
There
Jim (02:21):
are still things that haven't changed when it comes to
being a good parent, but so muchhas largely because of
technology and specificallysocial media.
Like you just can't raise kidsthe same as you used to.
So yeah.
As a, as a net whole, I feellike our world would probably be
(02:44):
a better place without socialmedia than with it.
I am kind of curious yourthoughts too.
Ben (02:50):
Yeah, I would change the adjective.
I don't think it would be abetter place.
I do think it would be a simplerplace.
Jim (02:58):
Sure, less complicated.
Ben (03:00):
Yes, I don't want to put a value judgment on it, whether
it's good or bad.
The moment you ascribe a good orbad to something, it gets messy,
really messy.
Jim (03:11):
You don't want to make a value judgment on social media
as a whole.
Ben (03:14):
Correct.
I would rather look at it fromthe perspective of simplicity
versus complexity somehow thatmakes it feel better.
Jim (03:23):
I have to imagine though, the platform makes a difference.
Definitely.
Are there some platforms thatyou would.
More readily say, this is justnot a good platform for my kid
to be on.
Ben (03:36):
125 percent
Jim (03:39):
and what platform or platforms would that be?
Ben (03:42):
That would be Snapchat, If I could go back and do one thing
differently, it would be.
Eliminate Snapchat from my son'sphone.
It's just a gateway to.
An unrestricted amount of,filth, drama, the opposite of
what we're trying to instill inour kids.
(04:04):
Snapchat is like a gateway toit.
You can find all kinds of thingson Snapchat.
Kids who are exposing themselvesin snaps to each other and those
things get screen recorded andshared amongst other kids.
And then you have plugs onSnapchat, which are on the snap
(04:25):
map.
If you look and see a plug, anelectrical plug icon, that's a
symbol for someplace that youcan go and get some nefarious
drug or substance or whateveryou want.
You can find it via the snap mapand plugs.
And so it's this uncensoredunrestricted gateway to so much
(04:51):
pain.
Some kids can handle it and it'sbeen fine, but then there's
other kids who just curiositygets the best of them and it
ends up taking them down a verylong.
hard road.
Sure.
It's really difficult to comeback from.
I would caution any parent Donot let your kid get Snapchat.
Jim (05:15):
And if you're not familiar with it, one of the kind of key
components of Snapchat is thatmessages and those pictures and
things like that disappear afterthey're viewed.
So you can.
Change like how long it stays onthe screen.
And obviously you can takescreenshots of it, but
(05:35):
ultimately the whole point isthat it disappears.
And it's hard not to think thatthat's sort of like an
intentional thing to keep thatlayer of privacy.
Now it does tell you whensomeone has taken a screenshot
of your content, so you at leasthave a heads up.
But once they take thatsnapshot, then.
(05:56):
There's nothing you can do aboutit.
And in fact, I think evenlegally, cases have shown, if
you sent it, then it'sessentially now their photo.
it's really scary, but you'reright.
Some people can be moreresponsible with it, but it's
such a dangerous thing.
there other ones?
Like I know Tik TOK is reallypopular and there's some
(06:18):
concerns about attention andsome of the messages that come
with that.
What do you think about thatone?
Ben (06:25):
It's just like any other social media platform with an
algorithm.
It tracks what you engage with.
It tracks what you, immediatelyswipe away from.
It tracks the, ads that youclick.
So it's, a super intelligent AI.
feeding you more and more ofwhat you want.
And anytime that that happens,you get hooked and you keep
(06:49):
watching.
There was one, skit for lack ofa better term on a tick tock
video of a husband and wife inbed, and one of them is
scrolling until two 30 in themorning.
And the other one just.
Falls asleep when they hit thepillow.
And it was just a funnycomparison of two types of
spouses in the world, one whostays up until two 30 and
(07:10):
scrolls and the other who fallsasleep when their head hits the
pillow.
And it's relatable becausethat's, that's my wife and I,
Jim (07:18):
that's my wife.
And I,
Ben (07:20):
I am the, I'm asleep as soon as my head hits the pillow.
Jim (07:24):
Isn't it funny that that's me too.
I'm curious what people thoughtwhen we both said there's one of
those in our relationship thatyou and I are the fall asleep
when the head hits the pillow.
Oh
Ben (07:34):
yeah.
I mean, it's.
Really thanks to my CPAPmachine.
I mean, once that air startsflowing, I'm a goner.
Jim (07:43):
I'm not saying that I never scroll on my phone in bed.
I do like, it's not an uncommonthing,
Ben (07:49):
I don't have a problem necessarily with Tik TOK.
I know that there's somegovernment measures.
They're trying to curtail thepresence of TikTok in America
because there's some Chinesecontrol of it.
I don't understand.
I think it's a fine app.
I think it's like anything else,you can get addicted to
(08:10):
anything.
I don't have a problem with itother than there was a time.
In the last couple of years thatI spent way too much time.
Jim (08:22):
It's interesting because part of it too, is not just
social media, but also the riseof the internet.
And now when it comes to mediasources, it makes a lot more
sense to compartmentalize youraudience.
You, you want to cater to thataudience and the audience ends
up being almost a customer.
Caricature of itself, becauseyou always have to do something
(08:46):
a little bit more extreme orsomething that riles people up
to keep them interested.
And so when you only consume onenews source, now all of a sudden
you end up in a very extremeposition without even realizing
that you're there as a country.
(09:06):
I think that's just, that's partof who we are is that we allow.
Some of those outside influencesand it's a business and it's an
app and it's something that wevoluntarily get into
Ben (09:18):
it's true
Jim (09:19):
I'm not trying to argue again because people are gonna
believe what they want tobelieve Yes, but but it's
amazing to me how people willhear something from their Select
new source, and they won't evenbother to entertain what other
information is out there.
Ben (09:39):
It's like speaking into a vacuum.
You only hear your voice and thevoice of the people that you're
closest to.
And you miss out on so manyother people's voices.
Yeah.
And I think that's where socialmedia can become problematic.
Cause if you're only amplifyingand giving ear to the voices you
(10:00):
agree with.
You're gonna miss out on a wholelot
Jim (10:04):
for sure.
Ben (10:05):
So yeah, I can see why that would be problematic but I still
don't know if it would be betterif the world would be better
without Social media because ifit wasn't social media, it would
be something else that we wouldfind to do the same thing it's
just the tribe mentality likeyou need a tribe and you're
(10:28):
gonna find a tribe whetherthat's Gathering in caves or
going on hunting trips togetheror for sure social media like so
I don't know that Eliminatingsocial media would somehow read
society of those things.
I think they'd pop up in otherways.
Jim (10:46):
I don't disagree with you, but I love that word.
And I've used that myself, thattribe mentality, that the
difference is with social mediabefore you mightn't have had a
tribal mentality, but it was atleast somewhat localized.
Ben (11:01):
True.
Jim (11:02):
So now.
The problem is before the news,you wanted to remain
respectable.
Otherwise you would lose a bigchunk of your audience versus
now it actually is better to bemore extreme.
So I guess social media and likethe news in general are sort of
tied together for me, but whereI do feel like it is worse is
(11:23):
that before you still were partof a smaller community.
So even if you leaned more inone direction than the other,
you still were trying to beacceptable within the community
in which things ran.
And so prevented some of theseextremes from coming out, but I
(11:46):
don't know, even as I talk, Iguess one area that it's
probably helpful is formarginalized groups.
Ben (11:52):
I would agree with that.
Jim (11:53):
Because if you're in a small community and you're the
only fill in the blank.
It's really hard to feel likeyou have a voice or a place.
In that regard, it's probablybeen better.
Ben (12:06):
My biggest discovery on social media was the fact that
adults can struggle with ADHDand that a lot of the symptoms
and things that I thought werejust weird quirks about me were
actually the symptoms and, andsigns that pointed to adult
(12:26):
ADHD, the constant anxiety loopsthat my brain would sometimes
get into.
And I just could not break freefrom and seeing videos of people
with ADHD and their doom piles.
I'm surrounded by doom pilesright now because I'm moving,
but that's besides the point.
(12:47):
When I do a project and Iwasn't.
treating my ADHD, my tools wouldjust sit wherever they ended up
and they would just be thereuntil all of eternity.
Like I would have a box in mycar to throw random things.
Then I would take that box outand put it in the garage next to
another box of random things.
(13:09):
And all these things that Ithought were just quirks about
Ben were actually Symptoms ofADHD.
I set an appointment with mydoctor's office.
They had a social worker who wastrained in.
diagnosing ADHD.
(13:29):
I went through the tests.
What do you know?
I was basically off the chartswith ADHD.
And so I started taking amedicine and some other
treatment for ADHD.
And it's been life changingrecently because of my heart
stuff, I had to stop taking myADHD med for a bit.
(13:52):
And that was.
Difficult, because I revertedback to unmedicated Ben with
raging anxiety and raging ADHD.
And that's not a good mix whenyou're moving and stressed,
stressed, and you've got a lotof projects to do.
It was really bad.
(14:13):
Had I not seen those videos, hadI not read those articles that
people were sharing on socialmedia, I don't know that it
would have ever crossed my mindthat, Oh, maybe this is ADHD
that I'm dealing with.
And my life drastically improvedthe moment that I sought
(14:34):
diagnosis and treatment and I'min a much better place because
of it.
Um, Yeah, that's due largely tosocial media.
Jim (14:43):
You're convincing me as we're doing this episode that
maybe there is a net positive.
It seems like while yes, socialmedia catches people on the
fringes and sometimes even makespeople who were on the fringes
worse than they were if itweren't for it.
It also catches people on thefringes that maybe wouldn't have
otherwise Been connected orfound that solution.
(15:07):
I think even back to my collegedays before there even social
media was in its fledglingstages.
This was back when you had tohave the dot edu address for
Facebook.
Zanga was king and it was, therewas a guy in the dorms that
never talked to anybody becausehe was deeply introverted.
(15:28):
But if you got on instantmessenger, And you had him
instant messenger folks, ifyou're under 40, just, uh, the
instant messaging service whereyou could send each other
effectively texts, DMS.
Yeah.
DM that's a better way of sayingbasically a DM specific
platform.
(15:48):
And yeah, it, it allowed him tobe able to do that.
It's so, it sounds like for aguy like you, that felt like he
was sort of an outsider in someof these ways, social media was
actually a huge way to connectto that.
Ben (16:00):
It was.
And anytime that you feel likean outsider, it creates so many
big questions and it fosters asense of loneliness.
Like, am I the only one who isstruggling with this?
Seeing those videos and postsand everything else just really
clarified for me that, no, I'mnot the only one.
(16:23):
There are other people my agethat are dealing with these
things.
And.
Who would have thought?
So, yeah, I mean, I think a lotof good can come from social
media.
Do you consider podcasts to bepart of social media?
Jim (16:43):
I think in the world that I had created where there was no
social media.
I think it almost would be likestepping back in time a little
bit to before some of the onesthat are a little more catered,
like the Facebook and tick tockand Snapchat and all that kind
of stuff, because, you know, Youknow, the, the direct messaging
(17:04):
with instant messenger, I thinkis less problematic because it's
more personal podcasts or thesame thing.
And there's some accountability,I think, in podcasts as well.
Just that it's, it's this.
Immortalized thing, you know,unlike Snapchat where it
disappears, it's something that,um, you tune into and there's
(17:26):
just a swath of podcasts outthere that you're not forced to
listen to just that one podcast,um, that, and it tends to be
topical and Hey, here issomething that maybe I know for
me, this podcast I've saidbefore would have been huge in
some of my, um, Early marriagedays, and especially when I was
(17:47):
going through stuff with thekids and my wife's postpartum
depression podcast would havebeen an amazing thing.
But again, even as we talk, I,while I think we need to circle
back to some of the negatives, Ithink of my own kid that when he
was really young.
Somewhere around 3rd or 4thgrade is when kids start getting
(18:09):
mean and judgmental and even ina positive light they just start
clicks.
That's when people find theirother people and somebody like
my kid who's trying to learn thesocial rules.
Falls outside of that.
He's more of the computer andthe Minecraft and cubing and VR
(18:33):
and all that kind of stuff wherethat's a lot more popular
nowadays and there is a groupfor it, but it wasn't until we
gave him a phone when he turned,not right when he turned 12, but
he was 12 when he got one.
And he also, with his own money,saved up to buy a VR headset
where he can game online withhis friends.
(18:56):
So now between getting on likeMinecraft and he'll have his
phone set up and they're all ona group chat together or they're
on VR together, he didn't reallyhave friends to speak of until
he had that.
Interconnectivity on theinternet where now he's got this
like solid group of friends thathe interacts with on a regular
(19:16):
basis.
I hear him like laughingdownstairs or a lot of times
when he'll do the voice chat.
I digress in all of that just tosay that I, speaking of my own
kid, like it's actually been apositive thing.
So you asked me what I woulddwindle it down to.
And I don't know, I'm tornbecause I see how there are kids
(19:40):
who are dead today as a directresult of social media and
adults and adults.
And that to me is just a tragicthing, but there are also.
Some of those like introvertedkids or neurodivergent kids that
social media has been a lifelinefor them that they didn't have
(20:00):
when you and I were growing upthat it's hard for me to say, do
you just get rid of it?
And you can't.
It's here.
So How do we adapt?
I think it's more about havingstructure and guidelines and
limitations to make sure thatwe're more careful with this.
And I think my kid is probablygoing to do a better job with
(20:23):
his kids than I did because I'mjust trying to figure it out.
It's brand new to us.
Yeah.
It is.
I don't know.
I'm curious for you though,because us, Xennials as they
call us, we didn't grow up witha lot of social media or even
the internet wasn't honestlysomething that most people had
(20:45):
as kids.
So I
Ben (20:47):
was super nerdy.
Jim (20:49):
You had the internet as a, as a little kid.
Oh yeah.
I feel like of the two of us inthis room, that would have been
a lot more meaningful for you tohave the world at your
fingertips.
So I'm just curious how, how theinternet and the rise of social
media has impacted you.
Ben (21:07):
I go back to eighth grade.
Before there was the internet aswe know it today, there were
localized bulletin boardsystems, BBSs.
And it sounded like a faxmachine every time you dialed in
to connect to the internet.
You would hear the beeping justlike you would calling a fax
(21:27):
number.
I just remember coming home fromschool and trying my best to
beat my brother to the computer.
Cause we had one phone line, onecomputer and whoever got there
first, it was theirs for, Ithink we had like an hour and a
half time limit.
We would tie up the phone lineNobody could call us and if
(21:49):
somebody picked up the phone tomake a phone call it would knock
us off of the internet So it waslike Held together with
toothpicks type of internet, butI loved it.
And by the time eighth graderolled around, I had found IRC,
internet relay chat.
(22:11):
This is pre AOL instantmessenger.
It's all text based chat roomsaround the country and the
world.
And I found myself exposed todifferent time zones.
And that was a new concept andtalking to people from Florida
and North Carolina and all thesedifferent states.
(22:34):
And it was awesome.
I had very early exposure to theinternet and it was very
formative.
And kind of gave me a baselineto work from.
That may impact my view ofsocial media a little bit,
because if you recall fromprevious episodes, I was by no
(22:54):
means a cool kid growing up.
I was extremely nerdy, still am.
Jim (22:58):
Refer to our geek culture episode.
Yes,
Ben (23:01):
there you go.
I found so much connectionliterally and relationally
through the early days of theinternet and it has been very
formative.
I think that definitely taintsmy perspective a little bit and
helps me see the positive morethan the negative.
(23:23):
But that being the case, youwere talking about the number of
dead kids because of theinternet and because of social
media specifically.
I think there's a lot of deadrelationships because of social
media.
Just this concept of ghostingpeople is a very social media
(23:45):
specific phenomenon.
If you had an uncle that, youknow, had political views that
you disagreed with pre Facebook,there may not have even been a
stage for that to come out thatyou had these differing views.
It probably wouldn't have beenan issue Except in conversations
(24:07):
around the dinner table aroundelection season, maybe but now
if you have an uncle who postsabout a candidate that you
despise and you now Feel likeyou can't have anything to do
with said uncle that's Prettyridiculous, but I see it often
(24:28):
Yeah on social media people getso into that tribe mentality You
That it clouds their ability tointeract with anybody who sees
things differently.
And so, now all of a sudden, theclout that you get from being
(24:49):
part of an echo chamber that'sechoing all of your beliefs,
somehow becomes more importantand more relevant than any
relational depth that you mayhave outside of social media.
So, I think In a lot of ways,social media is harmful because
of that.
(25:10):
I would say from a relationalperspective, it's probably
pretty close to 50, 50, 50percent helpful, 50 percent
detrimental to relationships.
and I think around electionseason, especially it.
Or when there's a globalpandemic, it becomes a lot less
(25:33):
helpful.
Jim (25:34):
Before.
We had social media.
You could disagree oncandidates.
now that we have social media,people have found, Oh, I get
punished when I say somethingthat sounds too right or too
left.
Biden is a jibbering nonsensicaldementia patient.
(25:55):
I saw somebody had posted, aside by side image of, Trump
doing the same hand motions asHitler.
Yeah.
And so it forces you to pick onesingle side.
You can't have any nuancebecause if you do, then now all
of a sudden I feel like anoutsider.
Most people don't want to feelthat way.
(26:16):
So the nuance gets lost and theneventually we start demonizing
aspects of the other side.
when I hop on to check the news,I actually check it's five or
six different websites.
So fox news, I get on CNN.
The associated press, I get onus and Canada news from the BBC
(26:40):
and then I'll get on like an Mlive or a wood TV sort of thing.
You again, have thatAggrandizing of like this person
is terrible and I have to hatethis person and compare them to
the the worst person that I can.
I think we've lost that capacityto be able to sit down and say,
Okay, what do we agree on?
(27:02):
Or how can we come to aconclusion together without?
Fighting, right?
And I don't think either side isparticularly good at that
anymore.
No, I don't think so.
So I'm curious though.
You had mentioned the other sideof it is the impact that it has
on children.
(27:22):
When we were kids, we could dosomething stupid.
And only the people that werethere would remember it, whereas
now your kid screws up and it'son Snapchat or Instagram or
wherever.
It's something that anybody andeverybody can see and it never
goes away.
(27:42):
You also never just get to gohome and escape it because it's
still there on your phone Youdon't get that break.
That's something a luxury thatwe had as kids that our kids
don't have anymore Your kids arefarther along.
I'm curious to hear you reflecton the impact that you think
that has had on your kids
Ben (28:05):
well, my daughter is 15 and We did allow her to have
Snapchat with the condition ofAndy being in her contacts and
Andy being able to check herphone at any time to, uh, just
see how things are going.
(28:25):
And that's been super helpful.
And there have been several ofmy daughter's friends who got
themselves into heaps of troublebecause of that very thing.
Because.
When something goes on theinternet, on social media, it
usually stays there for quite along time and you can't just
(28:49):
make it go away.
She's watched and seen severalfriends struggle and have to
overcome these differentreputations that they've earned
for themselves based on whatthey put on social media.
For our daughter, she tended toput her stuff out, in person to
(29:12):
whoever would listen.
And that is its own challenge.
But in that I'm grateful thatthere's no, documentation of it.
Like there would be if she didtake to social media to air
those rants and thoughts andeverything else.
She's very fortunate that shehad enough discipline to not do
(29:33):
that.
Because unfortunately there area lot of kids that just, Don't
have that foresight or wisdom.
Maybe it's the differencebetween boys and girls, but I
can certainly look and see frommy son's experience things that
he's put on social media thathave already come back to bite
(29:53):
him or have the potential to Andi'm just like Yeah, whoa, why
would you ever put that outthere?
So it's a it's a very realconcern and again I'm grateful
for my daughter and her Healthyapproach to social media she
does talk with Andy quite a bitabout things She encounters on
(30:16):
Instagram or snapchat and Ithink that's the main difference
maker.
Sure It's to keep that open lineof communication with your kids.
That's so vital.
Jim (30:28):
You had mentioned that some of the Snapchat stuff was
detrimental, in the case of yourson and the exposure and the
unfettered access to all thedirtiest corners of the world.
As you reflect on that, I'mcurious, do sometimes you wonder
what if we had just.
outright banned any kind ofsocial media.
Ben (30:50):
One of the most frustrating parts of my parenting journey
has been allowing our son accessto Snapchat.
We'd made that decision becausewe talked with other parents of
his friends and they let theirkids have it.
It got to a point where it wasvery much a.
a Joneses kind of situation.
Everybody was doing it.
(31:12):
Everybody's kids had Snapchat.
We were among the few that weresticking our toes in the dirt.
And we just got to a point whereit was exhausting to keep doing
that.
So we're like, fine, you canhave Snapchat.
It's been rough for my son.
From that perspective, I wouldabsolutely agree that our world
(31:37):
without social media, our worldwithout Snapchat specifically, I
think would be a much better,brighter place.
I think Snapchat is just asource of a lot of brokenness
and a lot of.
Anytime you have an app wherethe main goal is to provoke or
(32:00):
just put something out there forjust a moment, it's a perfect
hiding spot.
Anytime that that's the goal, Ijust don't think that's healthy.
That just creates a lot ofopportunity for hurt.
Jim (32:15):
Kids can do that.
Well, even if the app isn'tintentionally structured and
created to do that.
Have you heard the term Finstabefore?
Ben (32:25):
Uh, no.
Jim (32:27):
Finsta is fake Instagram.
So kids have two or three orwhatever Instagrams.
They've got the one for theirfriends.
And that's the one where theypost anything and everything.
And then they've got their fakeInstagram, which is the one that
their parents said they had tofollow them on Instagram.
And so they just make sure thatthey post some of the more
(32:49):
vanilla things on the fakeInstagram so that the parents
don't know that they're postinga lot of other worse things.
And sometimes even that can bemaybe not intentionally
underhanded on the kid's part.
It's just, Hey, maybe my parentsdon't.
Want to see some of this stuff,or this is really more for my
(33:10):
friends.
And this is for like my aunt andmy grandpa.
And these are just the, Hey, wewent on vacation.
Here's a picture.
And these are more of the, causeit might not even be, you know,
you're, you're 21 and you'redrinking with your friends and
you just don't want anybody toget the wrong idea about that.
So you have, you're moreprofessional, but a lot of times
(33:33):
it's because kids are hidingstuff
Ben (33:35):
for sure.
My last closing thought aboutsocial media, from the context
of being a parent,unfortunately, the social media
stuff, the Snapchat, all ofthose things have become a
source of great anxiety as Iconsider my kids and their
(33:56):
engagement with them.
That anxiety does not always.
Help me be the best parent thatI can be.
And so instead of approaching myson with unconditional positive
regard, I'm now approaching himfrom the perspective of he has
(34:16):
Snapchat.
I know he's into stuff heshouldn't be.
And I really hate that.
As much as snapchat is theproblem.
I think My anxiety is also theproblem.
I think parents in today's ageneed to Find a way to hold That
anxiety in such a way that itdoes not build a wall between
(34:40):
them and their kids.
Cause I think for sure that'shappened with my son and I,
because of my anxiety and worryand fear and everything else
motivated by his.
Presence on social media and hisengagement with it.
I don't think I've done the bestjob of handling that, which then
(35:01):
in turns impacts my ability toparent well.
So as much as Snapchat is theproblem, I think parents
response to it is also a factorthat needs to be considered.
Jim (35:15):
You feel like it's creating an artificial barrier between.
I
Ben (35:20):
think so.
And then it's also more than theartificial barrier.
It's creating this overwhelmingcolossal Sense of anxiety and
anytime that you approachparenting or any pursuit in life
from an anxious perspective It'sjust not going to go.
(35:41):
Well, like you're going to betoo occupied in the worry you're
going to be too occupied in thethe concern and the wondering
and the worrying and theObsessing about various things
That you miss out on Your kid.
Jim (35:58):
Yeah,
Ben (35:59):
and at the end of the day, I really do believe that as a
parent part of my role is tohave an Unconditional positive
regard of my kids.
Yeah that no matter what theyget into I still love them
They're still valuable and Noamount of social media darkness
(36:24):
can change that.
Yeah, and You That's just been avery hard thing for me to
maintain in the face of theanxiety from social media.
Jim (36:34):
Sure.
I think it's, it's a trustthing, right?
The neighborhood that I live inmy kids now, I have a nine year
old and a 12 year old that evenwith a nine year old, as long as
kind of, I know what he's doing,if he wants to quick bike down
the street to hang out with thekids with the pool, or he wants
to go to the park, I'll let himdo it.
Ben (36:54):
Mm hmm.
Jim (36:55):
But the problem with social media is that it's not a safe
neighborhood, right?
As a parent you are exposingthem to the worst of Everything.
Yeah, and so to be able to giveup that trust it's that balance
of you know They need to learn,right?
Part of parenting is allowingyour kids to be exposed to
(37:18):
things so that they can learnhow to deal with them so that
someday when they're on theirown, it's not their first time
ever getting into social mediaor their first time changing a
tire or whatever it is, we'retrying to equip them to do that.
But social media is about thescariest possible thing because
it's not a safe neighborhood.
(37:40):
It's hard to let go ofprotecting your kid and trusting
them to do the right thing,because if they do it wrong, the
consequences are up to andincluding fatal.
And that's terrifying as aparent.
So I think you are right to havethat anxiety, but I agree that
(38:07):
you have to be able to at somepoint trust your kid and don't
let your fear become an obstacleto having a healthy relationship
with your kid.
Ben (38:17):
Definitely.
Well said
Jim (38:20):
If you are one of those late thirties, early forties
parents, we sympathize.
It is so tough.
Ben (38:29):
It is.
And there is no instructionmanual because.
This hasn't been done before.
No, we are the pioneers and itis so difficult.
Jim (38:39):
I already told my oldest.
You're going to find out that itis not fair because we are
learning things with you that bythe time we get to.
Your little brother, we willhave learned, and he might get
some privileges earlier than youdid.
And it's sorry, but that's justthe reality of being the oldest.
(39:00):
Yep.
It's, it's not that we trust onemore or less.
We're trying to figure it outand be a little bit more careful
the first time around.
We, we definitely sympathize.
And even for our youngeraudience, hopefully now that
you've had more access.
access to social media, thosedigital natives, as they call
them, maybe you'll do a betterjob than we did of raising your
kids when it comes to socialmedia.
Ben (39:23):
well, thanks for joining us on this episode of real men hug.
We're done and we're out ofhere.
Real men hug, but they also knowwhen to finally end the dang
show.
Jim (39:36):
You made it sound like we're just done with like, this
was the last episode
Ben (39:40):
of
Jim (39:41):
real men
Ben (39:41):
hug.
See you guys.
It was a good one.
Nice.
Jim (39:45):
That one's getting cut out, Ben.
Ben (39:49):
We'll see.
Jim (39:50):
Thanks for all the fish,
Ben (39:53):
the fish.
Jim (39:54):
If you don't know, you don't know it's from hitchhikers
guide to the galaxy.
Ben (39:58):
You are the second person to quote that movie today.
Be sure to check out the nextepisode of Real Men Hug.
Thanks for listening.
Have a good one.
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