July 25, 2024 • 48 mins
In this episode, Ben and Jim delve into the complexities of loneliness, exploring how self-doubt can deepen feelings of isolation. They discuss the concept of emotional permanence and its relation to ADHD, sharing personal stories and insights on coping strategies. The hosts tackle the impact of self-criticism, offering practical advice on choosing connection over isolation through self-acceptance.
Ben and Jim emphasize the importance of building support systems, proactive outreach, and the value of friends who understand and support you. They differentiate between intentional seclusion for self-care and reactive loneliness, providing insights on finding balance. The episode also discusses how past trauma can exacerbate loneliness and the healing power of connection. Addressing the paradox of feeling lonely in a crowd, they offer tips on seeking meaningful connections.
Things get about as deep as they ever have as Ben & Jim explore the role of faith in dealing with loneliness, including the feeling of divine absence.
Lastly, they highlight the importance of being a lifeline for others, sharing stories and practical advice on offering support to those in need.
And hey, if you love what you hear, consider supporting the show at buymeacoffee.com/realmenhug. Your contributions keep us going and help us bring you more episodes filled with laughter, insights, and relatable stories. Join us in growing and strengthening our community of real men who aren't afraid to hug it out. Thank you for being a vital part of our journey!
Ben and Jim emphasize the importance of building support systems, proactive outreach, and the value of friends who understand and support you. They differentiate between intentional seclusion for self-care and reactive loneliness, providing insights on finding balance. The episode also discusses how past trauma can exacerbate loneliness and the healing power of connection. Addressing the paradox of feeling lonely in a crowd, they offer tips on seeking meaningful connections.
Things get about as deep as they ever have as Ben & Jim explore the role of faith in dealing with loneliness, including the feeling of divine absence.
Lastly, they highlight the importance of being a lifeline for others, sharing stories and practical advice on offering support to those in need.
And hey, if you love what you hear, consider supporting the show at buymeacoffee.com/realmenhug. Your contributions keep us going and help us bring you more episodes filled with laughter, insights, and relatable stories. Join us in growing and strengthening our community of real men who aren't afraid to hug it out. Thank you for being a vital part of our journey!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ben (00:03):
Welcome to real man.
Hug a podcast for men.
And the women who love them.
I'm Ben
Jim (00:10):
and I'm lonely.
Ben (00:11):
Hi, lonely.
Lonely, otherwise known as Jim.
Jim.
Welcome to the show.
Welcome to the show.
That sounded very lonelycompared to our usual energy.
Jim (00:23):
We don't want to scare away the lonelies today.
Ben (00:25):
It's true.
If you're feeling lonely, Thisis the place for you.
Jim (00:29):
This is the episode for you.
I guess loneliness, it can comein a lot of flavors because you
can be surrounded by people andstill feel.
Lonely.
Yes.
So.
Ben (00:39):
That is like the worst form of loneliness for me.
Yeah.
I value like deep connectionwith people.
And if I don't sense that with agroup of people, it's worse than
being alone.
I would rather be alone bymyself than to be in that
situation.
Jim (00:59):
In our last episode, you had mentioned that you have
ADHD, right?
This particular reel that I sawwas talking about the impact of
ADHD.
If you're familiar withelementary psychology.
They talk about this concept ofobject permanence.
So we, as, as people, if you areholding a ball and all of a
(01:21):
sudden you cover it with yourhands, you still know that the
ball is there, butinterestingly, I can't remember
the name of it, but it'ssomething like emotional
permanence, something like that,where someone with ADHD can't
necessarily do that with otherpeople's feelings.
(01:42):
And so today we might have agood time together and I can
say, I love you, Ben.
I appreciate you as a friend.
And then I go home.
And you question whether thatthat is actually true, not
because you doubted it when Isaid it, but because you are not
being told in this moment thatyou are appreciated by Jim.
(02:06):
And so it's like it disappearsjust because you're not
receiving that feedback.
Is that true for your ADHD mind?
And how has that affected you?
Ben (02:17):
That is the story of my life.
Even recently I have a friendthat I've known for close to 10
years.
The 10 years that I've been insales, this friend has been by
my side and has seen me grow.
And she's actually been kind ofa mentor figure to me.
(02:38):
And one of the things that she'spointed out is.
How quick I am to, questionmyself and to assume the worst
about myself.
And we were talking about, well,why is that?
And as we unpacked it, what Isaw was that very thing.
My employers, supervisors, etcetera, tell me that I'm doing a
(03:02):
great job, but then what aboutthat moment when I didn't do a
very good job and I messedsomething up?
And what if I just didn't hearfrom them?
Anybody above me for a week inmy mind.
I would go to this place of wellthey must think that I just suck
and They must not be a fan of mywork anymore.
(03:25):
And if they're not talking tome, then it means that Somehow
i've let them down.
Unless it's being presented tome that, Ben, you're rocking it,
I will question and, to a pointthat it really doesn't need to
get.
So yes, that's a very real thingfor me.
(03:47):
And in those moments, it feelsso lonely.
So lonely.
I feel like all of a sudden thatperson and their influence is
just gone and it's me and ifthat person knew of this little
mistake that I just made,they're not going to think
(04:10):
highly of me anymore.
That emotional permanence thingis very real.
And is very isolating.
Jim (04:20):
If you are hearing this for the first time, dear listener,
you may be surprised to knowthat not everybody goes through
that same feeling.
I don't want to call it normal,but there are an awful lot of
people out there that, believeit or not, don't question
whether people have changedtheir opinions of you.
(04:43):
Just because a finite amount oftime has passed.
Yeah.
Or you did one extra thing thatyou in your head have perceived
as a negative thing.
How does that sit with you evenhearing that?
Ben (04:59):
It sits well when I look at the person who sits in front of
me.
Because here's a friend I've hadfor 20 years.
And you have truly never just upand left.
It's reassuring in the sensethat you even bring this up
because you are a person in mylife that's proved to me that,
(05:24):
you know, that impact, thatpresence that you have in my
life is not conditional, thatyou're not just going to up and
leave.
It's really good to hear youmention it, and, I'm just hit by
the meaning of it all in thismoment.
Jim (05:42):
We've kind of keyed in on ADHD just because I know you and
we just talked about it, but Isuspect that another The primary
reason behind somebody feelinglike others around them have
changed their opinions aboutthat person is trauma.
If you grew up with a parentthat you never knew when they
(06:06):
were going to explode on you andyou always questioned whether
the thing that I do is thatgoing to impact or like for me,
I've talked a lot about mycareer path.
When you've been part of thoseconversations where you get laid
off or you're not, you're notmeeting expectations or I don't
know, you find out that two anda half to three years of
(06:28):
experience have been invalidatedbecause of a clerical issue.
Brutal.
Not that that didn't just happento me.
That could be a whole differentepisode.
But when stuff like that keepshappening, you start to question
when.
There's peace or progress orpositivity because your
(06:55):
experience for such a long time,whether in childhood development
or in my case, vocationaldevelopment, when it's been by
and large negative, it's hardnot to think that that's not
going to change.
Yeah.
So I think trauma can be a hugepart of loneliness as well.
(07:16):
Definitely.
And ironically, it can feed intoitself.
I almost hesitate to say selffulfilling prophecy.
Because sometimes I feel likepeople who have stumbled into
success or mental health, usethat as a, a motivation.
Hearty pat on the back tothemselves for being such an
(07:38):
amazing person when inactuality, it's kind of the
opposite that they just haven'ttruly faced adversity.
Ben (07:44):
Sure.
Yeah.
Jim (07:46):
But at the same time, it absolutely is true that if you
tell yourself, nobody likes me,it's going to impact how you
present to people around you.
Ben (07:58):
Absolutely.
If you were to take all of thenegative feedback that you have
about yourself, what's thesource of that?
Is there any outside personthat's saying those things to
you?
My guess is there's probablynot.
(08:20):
And if there are, the number ofpeople saying those negative
things about you is It's prettysmall compared to the number of
people who see the positives inyou.
The downside of loneliness isthat it's very loud and the
voices of self defeating, notbeing good enough, I must have
(08:43):
done something to make thatperson mad.
At least for me, those thoughtsusually only exist in my mind
and they keep me feeling lonely.
And if I were to take thosethoughts and tell them to
somebody else, i.
e.
my friend that I spoke aboutwho's been in sales for much
longer than I have, I tell herabout these things and she will
(09:07):
point blank say to me, well, isthere anybody else in your life
that is echoing those sameconcerns?
And I'm like, No, loneliness isa very real thing for me has
been in the past and I think itis because of the traumas that
(09:28):
I've walked through.
It's you know, there's so manydifferent things that can cause
that loneliness to creep up.
But then at the same time,loneliness can be a gift
sometimes.
I treasure the times that I haveto be alone.
Jim (09:47):
Sure.
Ben (09:49):
It's really interesting though, because there's not much
in between when I think aboutalone time.
Either I'm riddled with anxietyand self doubt and everything
else, or I'm totally justsoaking in the self care of the
moment of being alone.
Jim (10:08):
I feel like there's a difference though, between what
you said.
One is.
intentional seclusion torecharge your introverted
batteries.
And the other one is more astate of deprivation that you
feel due to not getting thepeople influence that you so
deeply desire.
Ben (10:30):
True.
One is a proactive thing.
The, you know, slowing down,doing things by myself.
The other is extremely reactive.
Yeah.
Hmm.
That's a good point.
Jim (10:42):
It's interesting as you were saying that earlier too,
that I thought again, our lastepisode, we were talking about
how our kids don't get to escapebecause of social media and
their phones and everything thatwe didn't have to experience
growing up.
And yet here we are as adults,one of the reasons why we feel
(11:03):
so lonely is because we continueto tell ourselves that.
You are not a good person.
You are not a likable person.
People think you talk too much.
People think you talk too loud.
People think you're tooopinionated.
(11:24):
People think you're toopolitical.
People think you're too touchyfeely.
People think you don't talkenough.
All of these ideas are bouncingthrough your head.
You went in that socialsituation where every single bit
of feedback told you that youwere accepted part of the
conversation and then you leaveand all you can do is think
(11:49):
about that one thing that youwish that you would have said
differently.
And man, I bet nobody likes me.
Ben (11:55):
have had instances where I've had those moments.
One of the ways that I decidedto stop letting those things
have so much power over me is Istarted bringing them up with
people that are close to me.
So for example, last time werecorded.
I was getting ready to leave andI poked fun of Jim in front of
(12:18):
one of his boys.
And as I was getting in the car,I was like, Hmm, I don't know if
that was smart.
I don't know if that justcreated a fire because now I've
called into question Jim'sparenting by this joke that I
just cracked.
And so I left with that.
(12:39):
And one of the things that I'vebeen challenged to do is when I
feel those things coming to thesurface, just deal with it.
And Jim's obviously a closeenough friend where I just
texted him.
I was like, Hey, if I poked funof you in front of your kid, and
that wasn't, a really smooththing.
(12:59):
I'm sorry about that.
And of course, Jim texts back.
No big deal.
We poke fun of each other allthe time.
And it was just a veryreassuring moment.
But that's the kind of thingthat happens to me with
loneliness.
The second I'm alone, After aninteraction, I am critiquing
(13:21):
myself.
Did I say the right thing?
Did I do the right thing?
Did they notice that, I don'tknow, my zipper was halfway down
or whatever the case may be, Iget so fixated on those things
that all of a sudden therelational side just goes out
the window and all I can see ismy flubs and mistakes.
Jim (13:47):
And where the danger lies there is when you don't text
your friend clarification, thenit's You're like, well, you
know, I really screwed up there.
I don't know, maybe do they evenlike me?
I'll just wait for them to textme and reach out.
And if they don't, then thatmeans that they don't like me
(14:07):
anymore.
And now you have just created asituation where they have no
idea that you're waiting fortheir call or text or whatever.
And like in my situation, youwould find that Jim.
Hasn't talked to Ben in quite along time because his boat is on
fire and he's currently tryingto bail water So it has nothing
(14:29):
to do with you and everything todo with the situation that that
person is in right?
But now you've actually createda situation where that that
friendship can kind of driftaway
Ben (14:40):
Yeah, and that situation only exists in my head It's not
even real and that instance.
Mm hmm.
So again, that's another aspectof loneliness that is so,
powerful, like, those lonelythoughts that we have can throw
(15:01):
things way off course.
Jim (15:04):
You are talking from a point of extreme privilege right
now, where if I ask youpointedly, do you have friends
that you can reach out to, tocall or text if you're going
through a tough time, or if youjust want to go eat some wings
or whatever, somebody's going toshow up.
Ben (15:21):
Oh yeah.
Jim (15:22):
We're talking to people though, that might be listening
to this episode where.
It isn't even necessarily thatit's in their head.
It is just the stark realitythat maybe they are a parent of
really difficult kids thathasn't been able to get out the
door because they're consumed bythat.
Or maybe they just got throughthat period of time where now
(15:45):
they're available, but everybodyelse has moved on.
I think I talked about that inan earlier episode when I moved
to South Carolina and back againto Michigan.
It was like everybody moved onwithout me.
Even though I have friends andfamily, I felt like I had to
start over from square one.
Or maybe you desperately wantedto be married and you're still
(16:07):
single and in your forties andwondering what did I do wrong?
Why does nobody like me?
What advice do you have to thatperson who loneliness isn't just
in their head?
It's a real thing.
They don't have that person thatthey can call or talk to.
Ben (16:25):
I say this only because it's worked for me.
Just put yourself out there,find ways that you can be around
other people.
And this coming from somebodywho is extremely introverted.
Even though I value my alonetime and prioritize it.
(16:48):
I've also learned how to putmyself out there.
In college, for example, Jim'scommented on how I almost always
had a closed door on my dorm.
I just started to open the doorand allow people to come into my
room, even though it was reallyfrustrating in the beginning
because I didn't know when toexpect it or who to expect.
(17:11):
And people like Jim just startedshowing up and It actually
turned out to be a really goodthing.
So put yourself out there openup the door Yes, life probably
does feel extremely lonely.
And yes, you may not have muchbandwidth but even if it's like
an hour a week that you can Idon't know go to b dubs and Just
(17:37):
talk with a waitress It'spractice.
Maybe you'll meet your wife.
Who knows?
But something as small as that.
I remember doing similar things.
Going to a coffee shop, eventhough I could make coffee at
home, I would do that sometimesjust because it put me in a
place that was not in my house,that it was not just me alone
(18:01):
with my thoughts, but I had toat least place an order for
coffee with a barista and Livingin Oregon at the time, they were
usually pretty chatty.
And in this season that I wasout there on my own before Andy
moved out there, before ourwedding, I would do things like
(18:22):
that.
Just go and put myself outthere.
And so that's the only realexperience I can look back on.
Are those moments in college forsure.
And being on my own in adifferent state, just had to
find little ways to put myselfout there and allow myself to
(18:42):
feel that awkwardness and tostart building those
connections.
And it was like a snowball fromthere, really.
Jim (18:52):
I think that's great advice and I, I agree that absolutely
you need to put yourself outthere, but I, I am still just
thinking about that person,especially somebody who maybe
has been single for a reallylong time.
I think that failedexpectations.
Yeah, are one of the primereasons why people feel lonely.
(19:15):
There's the reality of, I justdon't have friends or I'm far
and away from family.
All of those things might betrue, but somebody who self
actualized and happy with whatthey're doing and all of those
things, they might not feellonely at all.
But if you had this belief thatI.
(19:36):
I need to be married to behappy, or I need to be a doctor
or go to this school, or I needto, whatever the case may be,
maybe it's somebody else'sexpectation of you.
Your parents wanted you tograduate college and you had to
drop out for one reason oranother when you have failed
(19:57):
that expectation.
I think that it can kind ofsnowball into something where,
again, your self talk startsholding you back, that you start
wondering what's wrong with meas a person.
So for me, it almost can betriggering sometimes when people
are like, well, if you're notmaking enough money, then just
go into a job that.
(20:17):
You do.
And I'm like, great.
I've tried that seven times andI'm still barely making above
minimum wage.
And I, you know, I have amaster's degree and I have all
these things that people canpick at it and say, well, you
did this wrong or you did thatwrong.
But again, I just feel likethat's coming from a place of
privilege because it worked foryou.
(20:38):
And for some of these folks,they.
They want to have deeprelationships, but there was
that failed expectation alongthe way, or maybe just failure
in general that they've tried tohave friends or they've tried to
put themselves out there in thedating pool and they're in their
own head about it because it'sbeen so long.
(21:00):
That's the person that I'mthinking about that.
I don't know if the advicechanges.
I think it is still.
The same, you, you're not goingto make friends if you don't go
to be dubs and do the trivianight., we talked about in,
making friends episode.
How finding shared activities isone of the biggest things.
Best ways that you can makefriends and put it out there.
(21:24):
Just like we talked about lasttime in our social media
episode, what you say toyourself in that circumstance,
is more important than any ofthe actions that you take.
Ben (21:36):
Definitely.
And one thing too, that crossedmy mind is the thought that I
can't expect somebody to likeme.
if I don't like myself.
So perhaps if you arecripplingly lonely and you've
tried to put yourself out there,take a look at yourself
(21:58):
inwardly.
Do you like yourself?
What are the things that youdon't like about yourself?
And look for the things that youcan control.
It may feel like there's notmuch.
And that may very well be thecase, but you can always find
something that you can work on.
(22:22):
I don't know.
I hear where you're coming from,but there are those
circumstances and there arethose times where you don't have
the privilege of just quickfixes or going out and putting
yourself out there.
And maybe you put yourself outthere so many times and you've
failed every time.
(22:43):
If that's the case, then maybeas odd as it sounds, do the
opposite and spend some time byyourself, but allow yourself to
not just.
Simmer in that loneliness, butfind ways to work on yourself to
improve and to bring yourself toa point where maybe others would
(23:06):
find, I don't know, I don't knowhow to say it without sounding
offensive, but work on yourselfto a point that others would
find you interesting.
Jim (23:17):
Sure.
I think the reason you hesitateis because the danger is there
is that you're somehow implyingthat there's something broken
about that person.
Like, maybe you need to look atyourself to see why nobody wants
to be your friend kind of thing.
While I think that a certainlevel of introspection is, is a
warranted, you have to be ableto accept who you are as a
(23:40):
person.
And like you said, if you don'tlike yourself, that's going to
impact how you present to otherpeople.
And so if you are in that campof loneliness, you need to find
those Patterns and habits oflife that are life giving for
you.
Maybe it's getting up a littlebit earlier than you would have
(24:01):
before so that you can sit andhave a cup of coffee and watch
your favorite show before you goto work.
Or maybe you want to go for aquick jog to get some endorphins
when it comes to that.
Or maybe you like staying up alittle bit later so that you can
chill in your hammock and watchthe fireflies and just enjoy.
(24:21):
Being with yourself and byyourself and allowing you to be
enough and for that to be lifegiving without needing another
person, but also recognizingthat we do need other people,
but a lot of people are stuck incircumstances that they can't
get out of, or at least have along expiration date.
(24:42):
Sure.
What can I do to.
To find joy in my presentcircumstances rather than that
death spiral of, Oh, woe is me.
This is terrible.
Right.
And you just end up making itworse for yourself then if you
would, accept that.
Yep.
This is a crappy circumstance.
I don't like that I'm here, butwhat can I do to enrich my life
(25:07):
and enrich the lives of others?
Ben (25:08):
Story time.
I had tickets to a concert toone of my all time favorite
artists.
And I had a relatively newfriend that I invited to go with
me to the concert.
And he was like, yeah, I'll go.
Well, we get to I think it wasthe day before the show.
He texts me and he's like, dude,I'm so sorry.
(25:31):
I can't make it to the show.
I was presented with this veryunique situation of I can try to
find somebody who can take histicket, which I did try that
method.
And unfortunately, nobody wasavailable to go to this concert.
This is one of my favoriteartists.
(25:52):
So then I was faced with thisdecision of, do I just go on my
own and.
Go solo to a show or do I justnot go and forgo the money that
I spent on my ticket I decidedto go to the show and I took an
uber downtown.
(26:12):
There was a huge line and Irecognized some faces in the
line and people recognized meBut it was such a long line that
I couldn't go catch up to thembecause they were farther ahead
in line than I was.
And by the time we got in thevenue, I'm looking around and I
don't see anybody that I know.
(26:34):
And it was this super awkwardmoment of, I don't know what to
do in this situation.
I've never gone solo to aconcert before.
Like I've usually had thecomfort of talking to somebody
or something.
I bought a bottomless soda alongwith my ticket.
(26:55):
So I just went to the bar andgot Werner's and I'm just
standing there sipping myWerner's and I'm looking and I
see these tables and Apparentlythey're VIP tables.
So I just decided I'm going togo and see what it takes to get
a VIP table.
Cause why not?
(27:16):
I'm here by myself.
This is really boring standinghere in the mass of people.
So let's go check out thetables.
So one thing led to another, Iended up reserving a table and
the, employee that came by to goover the details.
She asked me how many are inyour party and I said it's just
(27:39):
me and she just looks at me Andshe's like good for you, and
she's like I'll give you a dealsince it's just you So she gave
me a discounted rate on thistable And I had a table and
chairs a great view of the stageand for about two or three songs
I just Loved it, lived it up.
(27:59):
Went to the bar, got someVerner's, came back, had a chair
to sit in.
I'm old.
I appreciated it.
But then I just was looking out.
on the crowd and there's just somany people and similar age to
me I'm sure and they're standingand I'm like that can't be very
(28:20):
fun and I had three otherwristbands because the table was
for four people so I couldn'tlet those wristbands go to waste
so I just picked a random coupleand Walked over to them and just
said, Hey, you want to join meat my VIP table?
And they were like, seriously?
(28:41):
And I was like, yeah, I, it'sjust me.
I was going to go to the showwith a friend, but he couldn't
make it.
So I figured I'd just get atable.
And so for the next threequarters of the show, they
joined me.
It was a dude named Ben, ofcourse, and his wife, their
young parents.
And this is a rare instance thatthey got to get out of the house
(29:04):
and go see a show.
It's one of their favoriteartists and it was just like
this crazy cool opportunity thatcame about because I was okay
with being alone and a lot ofgood can come from alone time,
but there's also, as we'vetalked about, the potential for
(29:26):
a lot of not so good.
Sure.
Jim (29:29):
I love that story.
And you know, a lot of timeswhen we talk about some of these
issues, it might be the episodethat you skip ahead on or
whatever.
I hope that somebody who is notlonely listened this far in,
because if you are coming fromthat.
Place of privilege where you'vegot this phenomenal friend group
(29:50):
recognize that there areProbably more people than not
that don't have that.
And while you are comfortablebecause you've got that perfect
relationship and you've alwaysgot the person to call, there is
probably somebody in your lifethat really is struggling and
need somebody to reach out tothem.
So you can be that person.
(30:13):
You might be the one that has todo more work in that friendship.
Or imagine this sometimes.
You might be friends withsomebody that doesn't click
perfectly.
We all have those circumstances.
Now, if it's somebody that youabsolutely abhor or drives you
(30:33):
nuts, or you just can't be inthe same room with them, that's
not who I'm talking about.
But if it's just something.
A small thing that they're justnot like the perfect match cause
your kids aren't the same age oryou're in different
socioeconomic classes or somehowyou're an introvert and they're
way too extroverted for you orsomething like that.
(30:54):
Being able to put aside thatyou're not that perfect match
and just being able to be ablessing in their life that you
can be the friend that nobodyelse is being to them.
That's.
Huge to be able to step intothat because a lot of times
people who need friends, themost are in such a state of
brokenness that they just don'thave the energy or the drive, or
(31:19):
there's just something broken inthem that they just don't feel
like they're worthy of friends.
You could be the person in thatperson's life to make a
difference and to help them getout of that dark place.
Ben (31:31):
Absolutely.
I had no idea.
Who to pick or even if I wantedto pick anybody to come sit with
me But because I did that itmade their night.
Getting uncomfortable andlooking out for other people can
be a huge blessing
Jim (31:51):
There's a proactivity there isn't there?
Especially if you have I wouldimagine almost everybody at some
point in their lives has feltlonely.
Ben (32:01):
Yeah, I was feeling pretty lonely to be honest, because I
do have this great supportsystem around me and normally I
can call.
five friends and at least one ofthem will be able to join me in
whatever activity that I haveplanned.
I tried I put out Facebookfeelers, I called people, I
(32:23):
texted people, nobody could goto the show and I'm like super
bumming about it, but it was outof that bummed out spirit that I
was able to turn it around andbe proactive and reach out.
Jim (32:42):
That can make all the difference for sure.
We, we've talked about that evenin our relationship before when
you were kind of in a spot ofsort of isolation and feeling
like there wasn't a whole lot ofpeople there and same thing even
now, like our friendship, we'vetalked about that, that we run
this podcast, but I'm in such amentally drained state and I
(33:02):
have been in a crisis mode forsuch a long time.
We're not friends because of thepodcast, but it forces us to
come together in, in a phase ofmy life where I don't have a
whole lot of time for friends.
And so it's, it's forced arelationship that is really life
giving for me.
And even like I talked aboutmoving to South Carolina when I
(33:24):
came back, I felt like I didn'thave a whole lot of friends and
my brother organized a Dungeonsand Dragons campaign, right?
Ben (33:31):
That is so cool.
Jim (33:32):
And a big part of it, he was even honest about, he's
like, I saw that you were in aspace where you just didn't have
a whole lot of social outletsand I know that you needed that.
And so I wanted to.
Bring that together.
Even in my life right now,you've shown that to be the
person that while you also havegone through some of this big
stuff, in other ways, you are inmore of a position to be able to
(33:56):
reach out to somebody who needsit and to be that friend.
I appreciate you for that.
In my life.
I think I would feel a lot morelonely and some of those
thoughts would probably beattacking me a little bit more
perniciously if it weren't formy friend, Ben, who's really
been intentional and in a toughtime.
Especially when I was able toshare a lot of the despair and
(34:22):
discouragement on my heart inthe past.
I really have had people tellme, essentially it's too much.
I can't, I can't handle yourbrokenness.
Please go away.
Then of course you hear meapologize like, man, I'm sorry.
I feel like I'm just draggingyou down.
And you were like, what are youtalking about, man?
That's what friends do.
I'm here for you.
(34:44):
It seemed like such a simplething to you, but to me that
was.
A lifeline.
It really was.
Ben (34:52):
Yeah.
Similar thoughts to you.
I was in the hospital at thebeginning of June and I truly
was alone for a lot of it.
But my friend Jim checked in andthen when I was released and I
went home, from the hospital,the very next day Jim's at my
(35:13):
house with dinner and that wasincredibly meaningful, but even
more meaningful than dinner.
That was your ability toacknowledge, Hey man, I was
really kind of scared that wewere going to lose you.
Nobody else really framed it forme in that way.
(35:36):
When you were able to justacknowledge the full extent of
how you were feeling in thattime was powerful to me.
And the fact that there's spacefor that in our friendship means
a lot.
It's that kind of thing thatshows me that I am not alone,
that I have people in my cornerwho.
(35:59):
Felt this experience deeply andfor you to be able to
communicate that to me was verylife giving.
So back at you.
Jim (36:13):
I appreciate our friendship and I hope that.
As you guys are listening tothis, you can hear, yes, we're
talking about loneliness, butthe framework that rests upon is
the importantness for us ashuman beings to be
interconnected and to have asupport system and to have our
(36:34):
go to people that are here forus no matter what.
While you may be striving tofind that for yourself.
You might also be called to bethat to somebody else.
I had a tenuous conversationrecently where, somebody implied
(36:54):
that perhaps what I was goingthrough in my life, As much as I
can get frustrated sometimeswhen someone says, well, Hey,
maybe there's a reason whyyou're going through what you're
going through.
there is something to be saidabout using bad circumstances
for good.
(37:15):
When you're really in the thickof it, it's not always what you
want to hear.
I don't, I don't want any moretrauma.
I don't want any more bad news.
But be that as it may, I canstill use my current
circumstances.
To hone and refine how Iapproach other people.
(37:37):
And when someone is really goingthrough a tough situation, it's
hard for them to hear it fromsomebody coming from extreme
privilege that hasn't had todeal with those same issues.
It is absolutely possible.
For sure to be encouraged bysomebody who's never had to deal
with your issue.
I'm not saying that you can becounseled Professionally by
(37:59):
somebody who hasn't personallygone through your experience,
but there is something aboutTalking to somebody else That's
been through it.
Heck, I talked to my sister,like she's been going through a
difficult circumstance right nowthat we'll talk every once in a
while over the Marco Polo app.
We'll go back and forth andshe's going through this tough
(38:21):
time and I'll be there.
Help talk to her about some ofthat stuff, but in the same
breath, she'll be like,everything you're going through.
It just feels like silly thingsthat I'm coming to you with, but
she doesn't beat me over thehead about it.
And I agree that the things thatshe's going through is tough.
It doesn't, doesn't mean thatmaybe I'm going through
(38:41):
something a little more toughright now.
Sure.
But.
We can both help each other.
And she has been a hugeencouragement to me, even though
the thing that I need to beencouraged about most, honestly,
is some of that financialinsecurity that I go through and
she is in a place of.
Significant financial securitythat I just have never known.
(39:04):
And yet she's been one of themost encouraging people to me
along this path.
So yeah, absolutely can make adifference even if you haven't
been there.
I think of you being an adoptivefoster parent.
And everything that came throughthat, you now have a lens and a
light to be able to shine forpeople who.
(39:28):
Haven't gone through that.
Somebody in that situationabsolutely could feel alone.
Like I'm the only one.
Yes.
How, how can I not raise thiskid?
What am I doing wrong that, andfeel so terribly alone in that.
Ben (39:43):
Absolutely.
Jim (39:44):
And now you've got a voice to that, right?
Definitely.
Ben (39:49):
I think there is this tension between loneliness and.
Yes, this episode is aboutloneliness.
I don't think you can reallytalk about loneliness without
looking at the the other side ofthe coin, this idea of
connectedness.
They go hand in hand.
It's like the yin and the yang.
(40:10):
You cannot have connectedness.
Without knowing loneliness andyou can't have loneliness
without knowing connectedness.
Yeah.
Jim (40:20):
All right.
I'm gonna do it ben I want totalk about the God factor when
it comes into this.
So, and whether we decide to useit or not, but okay.
So, um, We record the show, Ithink by now, most everybody
knows that we're two Christianguys, that's never been the
intent of the show.
And yet, when it comes to thisloneliness thing, I think I
(40:41):
would be remiss to not at leastmention that because I think
especially your most staunchChristians would say, well, Hey,
what about God in all of this?
You know, is it?
An identity issue.
Is it something that I'm tryingto find my identity in other
places and I need to have mycontendedness in that
(41:02):
relationship?
Or is that a trite kind of thingto say?
Like you just need Jesus andthen all your problems are
solved.
It is something that I thinkabout.
My church has.
Gone through the sermon seriesthat actually is talking about
kind of some of that doubt andsort of your feelings about God
(41:24):
and I think it was Tozer thatsaid the most important thing
about you is What you think whenit comes to who God is and so
then big on the screen says Godis Blank and I can't help but in
(41:44):
this situation this 10 year longCrisis that I've been going
through when I see God isautomatically absent pops into
my head yeah so when that's mydefinition of God does that
contribute to my loneliness oris that just the human reaction
(42:07):
to being in crisis for such along time
Ben (42:11):
I think it can be both but you're not alone in sensing the
absence of God Have you read thebook of Psalms?
I mean, David crying out manytimes, God, where are you?
Why have you forsaken me?
(42:32):
And Christ even repeats thosewords when he's on the cross.
Why have you forsaken me?
Loneliness is also a veryinterconnected part of the faith
experience.
There's a term dark night of thesoul, and I feel like you've
(42:53):
been on a 10 year dark night ofthe soul.
And I look at it sometimes and Ijust don't know how that can get
any darker.
And then it does somehow.
Maybe God has been absent inthat sense, but maybe that's, I
hate to say it.
Maybe that's okay.
(43:13):
Maybe, maybe you're not wrong.
Maybe there is this.
And if that's the case, what doyou do with that?
Jim (43:25):
If I'm being honest, the very first time that I saw those
words pop up, I immediatelythought God is cruel.
Ben (43:35):
I think there's room for that.
Jim (43:41):
I just have and had trouble.
understanding how he would letsomebody go through everything
that I have.
And worse that my situationlooks like sunshine and roses in
comparison to some people whohave experienced death and
(44:02):
sexual abuse and war and famineand all of these things.
you can read some of thetheologians on the problem of
pain.
But when you're in the middle ofit and it's been 10 years, it's
hard not to think, where are youin all of this?
I'm able to redefine not cruel,but absent.
(44:26):
Yeah.
It's, it's still there.
Where are you in thiscircumstance?
Cause I'm not feeling it.
And there can be a cosmic divineloneliness that fills you more
than any lack of friendship canwhen you feel like you've just
(44:48):
kind of been abandoned on theside of the road that can be
really tough.
I know an awful lot of ourlisteners are either believers
or have had a lot of.
Exposure to the church, bothpositive and negative.
As our resident spiritualadvisor I always love to hear
some of your thoughts on, onwhat that looks like when you
(45:10):
just feel like, man, I really amalone out here.
Ben (45:16):
a couple of thoughts crossed my mind.
Resident spiritual advisor, itjust brought to mind some good
news.
On Monday, I got news that I wasaccepted to the spiritual
director certification program.
So that's going to be official.
Awesome.
So I'm excited about that.
But yes, I hear the question.
(45:39):
I, I feel the absence.
One of the things that I'mlearning is that there's room
for that in faith, that theabsence does not mean there's no
faith.
Perhaps the absence is evidenceof faith.
I'm just reminded of a Psalm,Long enough, God.
(46:01):
You've ignored me long enough.
I've looked at the back of yourhead long enough.
Long enough I've carried thiston of trouble, lived with a
stomach full of pain.
Long enough my arrogant enemieshave looked down their noses at
me.
Take a good look at me, God, myGod.
I want to look life in the eyes,so no enemy can get the best of
(46:23):
me or laugh when I fall on myface.
I've thrown myself headlong intoyour arms.
I'm celebrating your rescue, I'msinging at the top of my lungs.
I'm so full of answered prayers.
That last section just seems soout of place.
I've thrown myself headlong intoyour arms.
(46:43):
I'm And yet the previous verseswere all about how how smitten
by God they felt.
I don't have any answers, but Ido know that even in the absence
of God, it's not an absence offaith.
Jim (47:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And honestly, whether you, Iguess to take a stab at my own
question, God often uses otherpeople to, Be a catalyst for
change in your life to make adifference.
But even if there is no God andyou, and you don't believe in
that, or you don't want tobelieve that it still is other
(47:26):
people, ultimately, a lot oftimes that end up being that
lifeline for you that reach outwhen you're in that dark place,
that can encourage you.
So I can't help but circle backto if you really are in that
place where you can make adifference in somebody's.
life, whether that's you being ahuman being and want to make a
difference or you recognizingthat maybe that's something that
(47:50):
you're being called to do.
Take that as your message to bethe person in somebody else's
life that Puts down that ropeinto that pit of loneliness that
that person has been goingthrough and, and be that change
for that person so that they canclimb back into the light and,
(48:11):
and feel that presence and feellike somebody else cares and
that they're not absent and thatthey are cared for.
That can make all thedifference.
You literally could savesomebody's life.
Ben (48:25):
In this season of life, you may feel utterly alone.
You may feel stricken by thealmighty.
You may feel like you've got allthe friends in the world or
maybe somewhere in between.
That's the beauty of life.
We're all in different stagesand every stage is okay.
(48:46):
There's no judgment.
You're not in the right place orthe wrong place.
You're just in the place thatyou are.
And hopefully this episode hasshown you that.
There's other places that yourcurrent experience doesn't have
to be forever.
And that there will be times inyour life where there is a lot
of connectedness and there maybe seasons where there's
(49:09):
loneliness, but in it all it'sgood and life can come from it.
Even in the.
darkest, hopeless situations.
There's a lifeline.
Maybe you need that lifeline andmaybe you need to extend that
lifeline to somebody else.
Jim (49:29):
There is hope, but you may be surprised to find out that
you are the hope in someoneelse's life.
Ben (49:38):
Absolutely.
Jim (49:40):
You know, Ben, we plan these episodes and sometimes we
think, Oh yeah, nice little, Idon't know if it'd be deep.
I don't think either one of usthought this would be light
hearted necessarily, but.
Ben (49:51):
Certainly not deep to the level that it was.
No.
But it's good.
Jim (49:55):
It's good.
I hope that we were able to helpsomebody out.
Real men hug, but they alsoreach out to.
People that need, that was bad.
Ben (50:09):
That's getting edited out.
Real men hug and they also checkin on their people.
That's right.
Jim (50:20):
The
Ben (50:20):
end.
Jim (50:21):
The end.
Ben (50:23):
I have to pee.
Welcome to real man.
Hug a podcast for men.
And the women who love them.
I'm Ben
Jim (00:10):
and I'm lonely.
Ben (00:11):
Hi, lonely.
Lonely, otherwise known as Jim.
Jim.
Welcome to the show.
Welcome to the show.
That sounded very lonelycompared to our usual energy.
Jim (00:23):
We don't want to scare away the lonelies today.
Ben (00:25):
It's true.
If you're feeling lonely, Thisis the place for you.
Jim (00:29):
This is the episode for you.
I guess loneliness, it can comein a lot of flavors because you
can be surrounded by people andstill feel.
Lonely.
Yes.
So.
Ben (00:39):
That is like the worst form of loneliness for me.
Yeah.
I value like deep connectionwith people.
And if I don't sense that with agroup of people, it's worse than
being alone.
I would rather be alone bymyself than to be in that
situation.
Jim (00:59):
In our last episode, you had mentioned that you have
ADHD, right?
This particular reel that I sawwas talking about the impact of
ADHD.
If you're familiar withelementary psychology.
They talk about this concept ofobject permanence.
So we, as, as people, if you areholding a ball and all of a
(01:21):
sudden you cover it with yourhands, you still know that the
ball is there, butinterestingly, I can't remember
the name of it, but it'ssomething like emotional
permanence, something like that,where someone with ADHD can't
necessarily do that with otherpeople's feelings.
(01:42):
And so today we might have agood time together and I can
say, I love you, Ben.
I appreciate you as a friend.
And then I go home.
And you question whether thatthat is actually true, not
because you doubted it when Isaid it, but because you are not
being told in this moment thatyou are appreciated by Jim.
(02:06):
And so it's like it disappearsjust because you're not
receiving that feedback.
Is that true for your ADHD mind?
And how has that affected you?
Ben (02:17):
That is the story of my life.
Even recently I have a friendthat I've known for close to 10
years.
The 10 years that I've been insales, this friend has been by
my side and has seen me grow.
And she's actually been kind ofa mentor figure to me.
(02:38):
And one of the things that she'spointed out is.
How quick I am to, questionmyself and to assume the worst
about myself.
And we were talking about, well,why is that?
And as we unpacked it, what Isaw was that very thing.
My employers, supervisors, etcetera, tell me that I'm doing a
(03:02):
great job, but then what aboutthat moment when I didn't do a
very good job and I messedsomething up?
And what if I just didn't hearfrom them?
Anybody above me for a week inmy mind.
I would go to this place of wellthey must think that I just suck
and They must not be a fan of mywork anymore.
(03:25):
And if they're not talking tome, then it means that Somehow
i've let them down.
Unless it's being presented tome that, Ben, you're rocking it,
I will question and, to a pointthat it really doesn't need to
get.
So yes, that's a very real thingfor me.
(03:47):
And in those moments, it feelsso lonely.
So lonely.
I feel like all of a sudden thatperson and their influence is
just gone and it's me and ifthat person knew of this little
mistake that I just made,they're not going to think
(04:10):
highly of me anymore.
That emotional permanence thingis very real.
And is very isolating.
Jim (04:20):
If you are hearing this for the first time, dear listener,
you may be surprised to knowthat not everybody goes through
that same feeling.
I don't want to call it normal,but there are an awful lot of
people out there that, believeit or not, don't question
whether people have changedtheir opinions of you.
(04:43):
Just because a finite amount oftime has passed.
Yeah.
Or you did one extra thing thatyou in your head have perceived
as a negative thing.
How does that sit with you evenhearing that?
Ben (04:59):
It sits well when I look at the person who sits in front of
me.
Because here's a friend I've hadfor 20 years.
And you have truly never just upand left.
It's reassuring in the sensethat you even bring this up
because you are a person in mylife that's proved to me that,
(05:24):
you know, that impact, thatpresence that you have in my
life is not conditional, thatyou're not just going to up and
leave.
It's really good to hear youmention it, and, I'm just hit by
the meaning of it all in thismoment.
Jim (05:42):
We've kind of keyed in on ADHD just because I know you and
we just talked about it, but Isuspect that another The primary
reason behind somebody feelinglike others around them have
changed their opinions aboutthat person is trauma.
If you grew up with a parentthat you never knew when they
(06:06):
were going to explode on you andyou always questioned whether
the thing that I do is thatgoing to impact or like for me,
I've talked a lot about mycareer path.
When you've been part of thoseconversations where you get laid
off or you're not, you're notmeeting expectations or I don't
know, you find out that two anda half to three years of
(06:28):
experience have been invalidatedbecause of a clerical issue.
Brutal.
Not that that didn't just happento me.
That could be a whole differentepisode.
But when stuff like that keepshappening, you start to question
when.
There's peace or progress orpositivity because your
(06:55):
experience for such a long time,whether in childhood development
or in my case, vocationaldevelopment, when it's been by
and large negative, it's hardnot to think that that's not
going to change.
Yeah.
So I think trauma can be a hugepart of loneliness as well.
(07:16):
Definitely.
And ironically, it can feed intoitself.
I almost hesitate to say selffulfilling prophecy.
Because sometimes I feel likepeople who have stumbled into
success or mental health, usethat as a, a motivation.
Hearty pat on the back tothemselves for being such an
(07:38):
amazing person when inactuality, it's kind of the
opposite that they just haven'ttruly faced adversity.
Ben (07:44):
Sure.
Yeah.
Jim (07:46):
But at the same time, it absolutely is true that if you
tell yourself, nobody likes me,it's going to impact how you
present to people around you.
Ben (07:58):
Absolutely.
If you were to take all of thenegative feedback that you have
about yourself, what's thesource of that?
Is there any outside personthat's saying those things to
you?
My guess is there's probablynot.
(08:20):
And if there are, the number ofpeople saying those negative
things about you is It's prettysmall compared to the number of
people who see the positives inyou.
The downside of loneliness isthat it's very loud and the
voices of self defeating, notbeing good enough, I must have
(08:43):
done something to make thatperson mad.
At least for me, those thoughtsusually only exist in my mind
and they keep me feeling lonely.
And if I were to take thosethoughts and tell them to
somebody else, i.
e.
my friend that I spoke aboutwho's been in sales for much
longer than I have, I tell herabout these things and she will
(09:07):
point blank say to me, well, isthere anybody else in your life
that is echoing those sameconcerns?
And I'm like, No, loneliness isa very real thing for me has
been in the past and I think itis because of the traumas that
(09:28):
I've walked through.
It's you know, there's so manydifferent things that can cause
that loneliness to creep up.
But then at the same time,loneliness can be a gift
sometimes.
I treasure the times that I haveto be alone.
Jim (09:47):
Sure.
Ben (09:49):
It's really interesting though, because there's not much
in between when I think aboutalone time.
Either I'm riddled with anxietyand self doubt and everything
else, or I'm totally justsoaking in the self care of the
moment of being alone.
Jim (10:08):
I feel like there's a difference though, between what
you said.
One is.
intentional seclusion torecharge your introverted
batteries.
And the other one is more astate of deprivation that you
feel due to not getting thepeople influence that you so
deeply desire.
Ben (10:30):
True.
One is a proactive thing.
The, you know, slowing down,doing things by myself.
The other is extremely reactive.
Yeah.
Hmm.
That's a good point.
Jim (10:42):
It's interesting as you were saying that earlier too,
that I thought again, our lastepisode, we were talking about
how our kids don't get to escapebecause of social media and
their phones and everything thatwe didn't have to experience
growing up.
And yet here we are as adults,one of the reasons why we feel
(11:03):
so lonely is because we continueto tell ourselves that.
You are not a good person.
You are not a likable person.
People think you talk too much.
People think you talk too loud.
People think you're tooopinionated.
(11:24):
People think you're toopolitical.
People think you're too touchyfeely.
People think you don't talkenough.
All of these ideas are bouncingthrough your head.
You went in that socialsituation where every single bit
of feedback told you that youwere accepted part of the
conversation and then you leaveand all you can do is think
(11:49):
about that one thing that youwish that you would have said
differently.
And man, I bet nobody likes me.
Ben (11:55):
have had instances where I've had those moments.
One of the ways that I decidedto stop letting those things
have so much power over me is Istarted bringing them up with
people that are close to me.
So for example, last time werecorded.
I was getting ready to leave andI poked fun of Jim in front of
(12:18):
one of his boys.
And as I was getting in the car,I was like, Hmm, I don't know if
that was smart.
I don't know if that justcreated a fire because now I've
called into question Jim'sparenting by this joke that I
just cracked.
And so I left with that.
(12:39):
And one of the things that I'vebeen challenged to do is when I
feel those things coming to thesurface, just deal with it.
And Jim's obviously a closeenough friend where I just
texted him.
I was like, Hey, if I poked funof you in front of your kid, and
that wasn't, a really smooththing.
(12:59):
I'm sorry about that.
And of course, Jim texts back.
No big deal.
We poke fun of each other allthe time.
And it was just a veryreassuring moment.
But that's the kind of thingthat happens to me with
loneliness.
The second I'm alone, After aninteraction, I am critiquing
(13:21):
myself.
Did I say the right thing?
Did I do the right thing?
Did they notice that, I don'tknow, my zipper was halfway down
or whatever the case may be, Iget so fixated on those things
that all of a sudden therelational side just goes out
the window and all I can see ismy flubs and mistakes.
Jim (13:47):
And where the danger lies there is when you don't text
your friend clarification, thenit's You're like, well, you
know, I really screwed up there.
I don't know, maybe do they evenlike me?
I'll just wait for them to textme and reach out.
And if they don't, then thatmeans that they don't like me
(14:07):
anymore.
And now you have just created asituation where they have no
idea that you're waiting fortheir call or text or whatever.
And like in my situation, youwould find that Jim.
Hasn't talked to Ben in quite along time because his boat is on
fire and he's currently tryingto bail water So it has nothing
(14:29):
to do with you and everything todo with the situation that that
person is in right?
But now you've actually createda situation where that that
friendship can kind of driftaway
Ben (14:40):
Yeah, and that situation only exists in my head It's not
even real and that instance.
Mm hmm.
So again, that's another aspectof loneliness that is so,
powerful, like, those lonelythoughts that we have can throw
(15:01):
things way off course.
Jim (15:04):
You are talking from a point of extreme privilege right
now, where if I ask youpointedly, do you have friends
that you can reach out to, tocall or text if you're going
through a tough time, or if youjust want to go eat some wings
or whatever, somebody's going toshow up.
Ben (15:21):
Oh yeah.
Jim (15:22):
We're talking to people though, that might be listening
to this episode where.
It isn't even necessarily thatit's in their head.
It is just the stark realitythat maybe they are a parent of
really difficult kids thathasn't been able to get out the
door because they're consumed bythat.
Or maybe they just got throughthat period of time where now
(15:45):
they're available, but everybodyelse has moved on.
I think I talked about that inan earlier episode when I moved
to South Carolina and back againto Michigan.
It was like everybody moved onwithout me.
Even though I have friends andfamily, I felt like I had to
start over from square one.
Or maybe you desperately wantedto be married and you're still
(16:07):
single and in your forties andwondering what did I do wrong?
Why does nobody like me?
What advice do you have to thatperson who loneliness isn't just
in their head?
It's a real thing.
They don't have that person thatthey can call or talk to.
Ben (16:25):
I say this only because it's worked for me.
Just put yourself out there,find ways that you can be around
other people.
And this coming from somebodywho is extremely introverted.
Even though I value my alonetime and prioritize it.
(16:48):
I've also learned how to putmyself out there.
In college, for example, Jim'scommented on how I almost always
had a closed door on my dorm.
I just started to open the doorand allow people to come into my
room, even though it was reallyfrustrating in the beginning
because I didn't know when toexpect it or who to expect.
(17:11):
And people like Jim just startedshowing up and It actually
turned out to be a really goodthing.
So put yourself out there openup the door Yes, life probably
does feel extremely lonely.
And yes, you may not have muchbandwidth but even if it's like
an hour a week that you can Idon't know go to b dubs and Just
(17:37):
talk with a waitress It'spractice.
Maybe you'll meet your wife.
Who knows?
But something as small as that.
I remember doing similar things.
Going to a coffee shop, eventhough I could make coffee at
home, I would do that sometimesjust because it put me in a
place that was not in my house,that it was not just me alone
(18:01):
with my thoughts, but I had toat least place an order for
coffee with a barista and Livingin Oregon at the time, they were
usually pretty chatty.
And in this season that I wasout there on my own before Andy
moved out there, before ourwedding, I would do things like
(18:22):
that.
Just go and put myself outthere.
And so that's the only realexperience I can look back on.
Are those moments in college forsure.
And being on my own in adifferent state, just had to
find little ways to put myselfout there and allow myself to
(18:42):
feel that awkwardness and tostart building those
connections.
And it was like a snowball fromthere, really.
Jim (18:52):
I think that's great advice and I, I agree that absolutely
you need to put yourself outthere, but I, I am still just
thinking about that person,especially somebody who maybe
has been single for a reallylong time.
I think that failedexpectations.
Yeah, are one of the primereasons why people feel lonely.
(19:15):
There's the reality of, I justdon't have friends or I'm far
and away from family.
All of those things might betrue, but somebody who self
actualized and happy with whatthey're doing and all of those
things, they might not feellonely at all.
But if you had this belief thatI.
(19:36):
I need to be married to behappy, or I need to be a doctor
or go to this school, or I needto, whatever the case may be,
maybe it's somebody else'sexpectation of you.
Your parents wanted you tograduate college and you had to
drop out for one reason oranother when you have failed
(19:57):
that expectation.
I think that it can kind ofsnowball into something where,
again, your self talk startsholding you back, that you start
wondering what's wrong with meas a person.
So for me, it almost can betriggering sometimes when people
are like, well, if you're notmaking enough money, then just
go into a job that.
(20:17):
You do.
And I'm like, great.
I've tried that seven times andI'm still barely making above
minimum wage.
And I, you know, I have amaster's degree and I have all
these things that people canpick at it and say, well, you
did this wrong or you did thatwrong.
But again, I just feel likethat's coming from a place of
privilege because it worked foryou.
(20:38):
And for some of these folks,they.
They want to have deeprelationships, but there was
that failed expectation alongthe way, or maybe just failure
in general that they've tried tohave friends or they've tried to
put themselves out there in thedating pool and they're in their
own head about it because it'sbeen so long.
(21:00):
That's the person that I'mthinking about that.
I don't know if the advicechanges.
I think it is still.
The same, you, you're not goingto make friends if you don't go
to be dubs and do the trivianight., we talked about in,
making friends episode.
How finding shared activities isone of the biggest things.
Best ways that you can makefriends and put it out there.
(21:24):
Just like we talked about lasttime in our social media
episode, what you say toyourself in that circumstance,
is more important than any ofthe actions that you take.
Ben (21:36):
Definitely.
And one thing too, that crossedmy mind is the thought that I
can't expect somebody to likeme.
if I don't like myself.
So perhaps if you arecripplingly lonely and you've
tried to put yourself out there,take a look at yourself
(21:58):
inwardly.
Do you like yourself?
What are the things that youdon't like about yourself?
And look for the things that youcan control.
It may feel like there's notmuch.
And that may very well be thecase, but you can always find
something that you can work on.
(22:22):
I don't know.
I hear where you're coming from,but there are those
circumstances and there arethose times where you don't have
the privilege of just quickfixes or going out and putting
yourself out there.
And maybe you put yourself outthere so many times and you've
failed every time.
(22:43):
If that's the case, then maybeas odd as it sounds, do the
opposite and spend some time byyourself, but allow yourself to
not just.
Simmer in that loneliness, butfind ways to work on yourself to
improve and to bring yourself toa point where maybe others would
(23:06):
find, I don't know, I don't knowhow to say it without sounding
offensive, but work on yourselfto a point that others would
find you interesting.
Jim (23:17):
Sure.
I think the reason you hesitateis because the danger is there
is that you're somehow implyingthat there's something broken
about that person.
Like, maybe you need to look atyourself to see why nobody wants
to be your friend kind of thing.
While I think that a certainlevel of introspection is, is a
warranted, you have to be ableto accept who you are as a
(23:40):
person.
And like you said, if you don'tlike yourself, that's going to
impact how you present to otherpeople.
And so if you are in that campof loneliness, you need to find
those Patterns and habits oflife that are life giving for
you.
Maybe it's getting up a littlebit earlier than you would have
(24:01):
before so that you can sit andhave a cup of coffee and watch
your favorite show before you goto work.
Or maybe you want to go for aquick jog to get some endorphins
when it comes to that.
Or maybe you like staying up alittle bit later so that you can
chill in your hammock and watchthe fireflies and just enjoy.
(24:21):
Being with yourself and byyourself and allowing you to be
enough and for that to be lifegiving without needing another
person, but also recognizingthat we do need other people,
but a lot of people are stuck incircumstances that they can't
get out of, or at least have along expiration date.
(24:42):
Sure.
What can I do to.
To find joy in my presentcircumstances rather than that
death spiral of, Oh, woe is me.
This is terrible.
Right.
And you just end up making itworse for yourself then if you
would, accept that.
Yep.
This is a crappy circumstance.
I don't like that I'm here, butwhat can I do to enrich my life
(25:07):
and enrich the lives of others?
Ben (25:08):
Story time.
I had tickets to a concert toone of my all time favorite
artists.
And I had a relatively newfriend that I invited to go with
me to the concert.
And he was like, yeah, I'll go.
Well, we get to I think it wasthe day before the show.
He texts me and he's like, dude,I'm so sorry.
(25:31):
I can't make it to the show.
I was presented with this veryunique situation of I can try to
find somebody who can take histicket, which I did try that
method.
And unfortunately, nobody wasavailable to go to this concert.
This is one of my favoriteartists.
(25:52):
So then I was faced with thisdecision of, do I just go on my
own and.
Go solo to a show or do I justnot go and forgo the money that
I spent on my ticket I decidedto go to the show and I took an
uber downtown.
(26:12):
There was a huge line and Irecognized some faces in the
line and people recognized meBut it was such a long line that
I couldn't go catch up to thembecause they were farther ahead
in line than I was.
And by the time we got in thevenue, I'm looking around and I
don't see anybody that I know.
(26:34):
And it was this super awkwardmoment of, I don't know what to
do in this situation.
I've never gone solo to aconcert before.
Like I've usually had thecomfort of talking to somebody
or something.
I bought a bottomless soda alongwith my ticket.
(26:55):
So I just went to the bar andgot Werner's and I'm just
standing there sipping myWerner's and I'm looking and I
see these tables and Apparentlythey're VIP tables.
So I just decided I'm going togo and see what it takes to get
a VIP table.
Cause why not?
(27:16):
I'm here by myself.
This is really boring standinghere in the mass of people.
So let's go check out thetables.
So one thing led to another, Iended up reserving a table and
the, employee that came by to goover the details.
She asked me how many are inyour party and I said it's just
(27:39):
me and she just looks at me Andshe's like good for you, and
she's like I'll give you a dealsince it's just you So she gave
me a discounted rate on thistable And I had a table and
chairs a great view of the stageand for about two or three songs
I just Loved it, lived it up.
(27:59):
Went to the bar, got someVerner's, came back, had a chair
to sit in.
I'm old.
I appreciated it.
But then I just was looking out.
on the crowd and there's just somany people and similar age to
me I'm sure and they're standingand I'm like that can't be very
(28:20):
fun and I had three otherwristbands because the table was
for four people so I couldn'tlet those wristbands go to waste
so I just picked a random coupleand Walked over to them and just
said, Hey, you want to join meat my VIP table?
And they were like, seriously?
(28:41):
And I was like, yeah, I, it'sjust me.
I was going to go to the showwith a friend, but he couldn't
make it.
So I figured I'd just get atable.
And so for the next threequarters of the show, they
joined me.
It was a dude named Ben, ofcourse, and his wife, their
young parents.
And this is a rare instance thatthey got to get out of the house
(29:04):
and go see a show.
It's one of their favoriteartists and it was just like
this crazy cool opportunity thatcame about because I was okay
with being alone and a lot ofgood can come from alone time,
but there's also, as we'vetalked about, the potential for
(29:26):
a lot of not so good.
Sure.
Jim (29:29):
I love that story.
And you know, a lot of timeswhen we talk about some of these
issues, it might be the episodethat you skip ahead on or
whatever.
I hope that somebody who is notlonely listened this far in,
because if you are coming fromthat.
Place of privilege where you'vegot this phenomenal friend group
(29:50):
recognize that there areProbably more people than not
that don't have that.
And while you are comfortablebecause you've got that perfect
relationship and you've alwaysgot the person to call, there is
probably somebody in your lifethat really is struggling and
need somebody to reach out tothem.
So you can be that person.
(30:13):
You might be the one that has todo more work in that friendship.
Or imagine this sometimes.
You might be friends withsomebody that doesn't click
perfectly.
We all have those circumstances.
Now, if it's somebody that youabsolutely abhor or drives you
(30:33):
nuts, or you just can't be inthe same room with them, that's
not who I'm talking about.
But if it's just something.
A small thing that they're justnot like the perfect match cause
your kids aren't the same age oryou're in different
socioeconomic classes or somehowyou're an introvert and they're
way too extroverted for you orsomething like that.
(30:54):
Being able to put aside thatyou're not that perfect match
and just being able to be ablessing in their life that you
can be the friend that nobodyelse is being to them.
That's.
Huge to be able to step intothat because a lot of times
people who need friends, themost are in such a state of
brokenness that they just don'thave the energy or the drive, or
(31:19):
there's just something broken inthem that they just don't feel
like they're worthy of friends.
You could be the person in thatperson's life to make a
difference and to help them getout of that dark place.
Ben (31:31):
Absolutely.
I had no idea.
Who to pick or even if I wantedto pick anybody to come sit with
me But because I did that itmade their night.
Getting uncomfortable andlooking out for other people can
be a huge blessing
Jim (31:51):
There's a proactivity there isn't there?
Especially if you have I wouldimagine almost everybody at some
point in their lives has feltlonely.
Ben (32:01):
Yeah, I was feeling pretty lonely to be honest, because I
do have this great supportsystem around me and normally I
can call.
five friends and at least one ofthem will be able to join me in
whatever activity that I haveplanned.
I tried I put out Facebookfeelers, I called people, I
(32:23):
texted people, nobody could goto the show and I'm like super
bumming about it, but it was outof that bummed out spirit that I
was able to turn it around andbe proactive and reach out.
Jim (32:42):
That can make all the difference for sure.
We, we've talked about that evenin our relationship before when
you were kind of in a spot ofsort of isolation and feeling
like there wasn't a whole lot ofpeople there and same thing even
now, like our friendship, we'vetalked about that, that we run
this podcast, but I'm in such amentally drained state and I
(33:02):
have been in a crisis mode forsuch a long time.
We're not friends because of thepodcast, but it forces us to
come together in, in a phase ofmy life where I don't have a
whole lot of time for friends.
And so it's, it's forced arelationship that is really life
giving for me.
And even like I talked aboutmoving to South Carolina when I
(33:24):
came back, I felt like I didn'thave a whole lot of friends and
my brother organized a Dungeonsand Dragons campaign, right?
Ben (33:31):
That is so cool.
Jim (33:32):
And a big part of it, he was even honest about, he's
like, I saw that you were in aspace where you just didn't have
a whole lot of social outletsand I know that you needed that.
And so I wanted to.
Bring that together.
Even in my life right now,you've shown that to be the
person that while you also havegone through some of this big
stuff, in other ways, you are inmore of a position to be able to
(33:56):
reach out to somebody who needsit and to be that friend.
I appreciate you for that.
In my life.
I think I would feel a lot morelonely and some of those
thoughts would probably beattacking me a little bit more
perniciously if it weren't formy friend, Ben, who's really
been intentional and in a toughtime.
Especially when I was able toshare a lot of the despair and
(34:22):
discouragement on my heart inthe past.
I really have had people tellme, essentially it's too much.
I can't, I can't handle yourbrokenness.
Please go away.
Then of course you hear meapologize like, man, I'm sorry.
I feel like I'm just draggingyou down.
And you were like, what are youtalking about, man?
That's what friends do.
I'm here for you.
(34:44):
It seemed like such a simplething to you, but to me that
was.
A lifeline.
It really was.
Ben (34:52):
Yeah.
Similar thoughts to you.
I was in the hospital at thebeginning of June and I truly
was alone for a lot of it.
But my friend Jim checked in andthen when I was released and I
went home, from the hospital,the very next day Jim's at my
(35:13):
house with dinner and that wasincredibly meaningful, but even
more meaningful than dinner.
That was your ability toacknowledge, Hey man, I was
really kind of scared that wewere going to lose you.
Nobody else really framed it forme in that way.
(35:36):
When you were able to justacknowledge the full extent of
how you were feeling in thattime was powerful to me.
And the fact that there's spacefor that in our friendship means
a lot.
It's that kind of thing thatshows me that I am not alone,
that I have people in my cornerwho.
(35:59):
Felt this experience deeply andfor you to be able to
communicate that to me was verylife giving.
So back at you.
Jim (36:13):
I appreciate our friendship and I hope that.
As you guys are listening tothis, you can hear, yes, we're
talking about loneliness, butthe framework that rests upon is
the importantness for us ashuman beings to be
interconnected and to have asupport system and to have our
(36:34):
go to people that are here forus no matter what.
While you may be striving tofind that for yourself.
You might also be called to bethat to somebody else.
I had a tenuous conversationrecently where, somebody implied
(36:54):
that perhaps what I was goingthrough in my life, As much as I
can get frustrated sometimeswhen someone says, well, Hey,
maybe there's a reason whyyou're going through what you're
going through.
there is something to be saidabout using bad circumstances
for good.
(37:15):
When you're really in the thickof it, it's not always what you
want to hear.
I don't, I don't want any moretrauma.
I don't want any more bad news.
But be that as it may, I canstill use my current
circumstances.
To hone and refine how Iapproach other people.
(37:37):
And when someone is really goingthrough a tough situation, it's
hard for them to hear it fromsomebody coming from extreme
privilege that hasn't had todeal with those same issues.
It is absolutely possible.
For sure to be encouraged bysomebody who's never had to deal
with your issue.
I'm not saying that you can becounseled Professionally by
(37:59):
somebody who hasn't personallygone through your experience,
but there is something aboutTalking to somebody else That's
been through it.
Heck, I talked to my sister,like she's been going through a
difficult circumstance right nowthat we'll talk every once in a
while over the Marco Polo app.
We'll go back and forth andshe's going through this tough
(38:21):
time and I'll be there.
Help talk to her about some ofthat stuff, but in the same
breath, she'll be like,everything you're going through.
It just feels like silly thingsthat I'm coming to you with, but
she doesn't beat me over thehead about it.
And I agree that the things thatshe's going through is tough.
It doesn't, doesn't mean thatmaybe I'm going through
(38:41):
something a little more toughright now.
Sure.
But.
We can both help each other.
And she has been a hugeencouragement to me, even though
the thing that I need to beencouraged about most, honestly,
is some of that financialinsecurity that I go through and
she is in a place of.
Significant financial securitythat I just have never known.
(39:04):
And yet she's been one of themost encouraging people to me
along this path.
So yeah, absolutely can make adifference even if you haven't
been there.
I think of you being an adoptivefoster parent.
And everything that came throughthat, you now have a lens and a
light to be able to shine forpeople who.
(39:28):
Haven't gone through that.
Somebody in that situationabsolutely could feel alone.
Like I'm the only one.
Yes.
How, how can I not raise thiskid?
What am I doing wrong that, andfeel so terribly alone in that.
Ben (39:43):
Absolutely.
Jim (39:44):
And now you've got a voice to that, right?
Definitely.
Ben (39:49):
I think there is this tension between loneliness and.
Yes, this episode is aboutloneliness.
I don't think you can reallytalk about loneliness without
looking at the the other side ofthe coin, this idea of
connectedness.
They go hand in hand.
It's like the yin and the yang.
(40:10):
You cannot have connectedness.
Without knowing loneliness andyou can't have loneliness
without knowing connectedness.
Yeah.
Jim (40:20):
All right.
I'm gonna do it ben I want totalk about the God factor when
it comes into this.
So, and whether we decide to useit or not, but okay.
So, um, We record the show, Ithink by now, most everybody
knows that we're two Christianguys, that's never been the
intent of the show.
And yet, when it comes to thisloneliness thing, I think I
(40:41):
would be remiss to not at leastmention that because I think
especially your most staunchChristians would say, well, Hey,
what about God in all of this?
You know, is it?
An identity issue.
Is it something that I'm tryingto find my identity in other
places and I need to have mycontendedness in that
(41:02):
relationship?
Or is that a trite kind of thingto say?
Like you just need Jesus andthen all your problems are
solved.
It is something that I thinkabout.
My church has.
Gone through the sermon seriesthat actually is talking about
kind of some of that doubt andsort of your feelings about God
(41:24):
and I think it was Tozer thatsaid the most important thing
about you is What you think whenit comes to who God is and so
then big on the screen says Godis Blank and I can't help but in
(41:44):
this situation this 10 year longCrisis that I've been going
through when I see God isautomatically absent pops into
my head yeah so when that's mydefinition of God does that
contribute to my loneliness oris that just the human reaction
(42:07):
to being in crisis for such along time
Ben (42:11):
I think it can be both but you're not alone in sensing the
absence of God Have you read thebook of Psalms?
I mean, David crying out manytimes, God, where are you?
Why have you forsaken me?
(42:32):
And Christ even repeats thosewords when he's on the cross.
Why have you forsaken me?
Loneliness is also a veryinterconnected part of the faith
experience.
There's a term dark night of thesoul, and I feel like you've
(42:53):
been on a 10 year dark night ofthe soul.
And I look at it sometimes and Ijust don't know how that can get
any darker.
And then it does somehow.
Maybe God has been absent inthat sense, but maybe that's, I
hate to say it.
Maybe that's okay.
(43:13):
Maybe, maybe you're not wrong.
Maybe there is this.
And if that's the case, what doyou do with that?
Jim (43:25):
If I'm being honest, the very first time that I saw those
words pop up, I immediatelythought God is cruel.
Ben (43:35):
I think there's room for that.
Jim (43:41):
I just have and had trouble.
understanding how he would letsomebody go through everything
that I have.
And worse that my situationlooks like sunshine and roses in
comparison to some people whohave experienced death and
(44:02):
sexual abuse and war and famineand all of these things.
you can read some of thetheologians on the problem of
pain.
But when you're in the middle ofit and it's been 10 years, it's
hard not to think, where are youin all of this?
I'm able to redefine not cruel,but absent.
(44:26):
Yeah.
It's, it's still there.
Where are you in thiscircumstance?
Cause I'm not feeling it.
And there can be a cosmic divineloneliness that fills you more
than any lack of friendship canwhen you feel like you've just
(44:48):
kind of been abandoned on theside of the road that can be
really tough.
I know an awful lot of ourlisteners are either believers
or have had a lot of.
Exposure to the church, bothpositive and negative.
As our resident spiritualadvisor I always love to hear
some of your thoughts on, onwhat that looks like when you
(45:10):
just feel like, man, I really amalone out here.
Ben (45:16):
a couple of thoughts crossed my mind.
Resident spiritual advisor, itjust brought to mind some good
news.
On Monday, I got news that I wasaccepted to the spiritual
director certification program.
So that's going to be official.
Awesome.
So I'm excited about that.
But yes, I hear the question.
(45:39):
I, I feel the absence.
One of the things that I'mlearning is that there's room
for that in faith, that theabsence does not mean there's no
faith.
Perhaps the absence is evidenceof faith.
I'm just reminded of a Psalm,Long enough, God.
(46:01):
You've ignored me long enough.
I've looked at the back of yourhead long enough.
Long enough I've carried thiston of trouble, lived with a
stomach full of pain.
Long enough my arrogant enemieshave looked down their noses at
me.
Take a good look at me, God, myGod.
I want to look life in the eyes,so no enemy can get the best of
(46:23):
me or laugh when I fall on myface.
I've thrown myself headlong intoyour arms.
I'm celebrating your rescue, I'msinging at the top of my lungs.
I'm so full of answered prayers.
That last section just seems soout of place.
I've thrown myself headlong intoyour arms.
(46:43):
I'm And yet the previous verseswere all about how how smitten
by God they felt.
I don't have any answers, but Ido know that even in the absence
of God, it's not an absence offaith.
Jim (47:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And honestly, whether you, Iguess to take a stab at my own
question, God often uses otherpeople to, Be a catalyst for
change in your life to make adifference.
But even if there is no God andyou, and you don't believe in
that, or you don't want tobelieve that it still is other
(47:26):
people, ultimately, a lot oftimes that end up being that
lifeline for you that reach outwhen you're in that dark place,
that can encourage you.
So I can't help but circle backto if you really are in that
place where you can make adifference in somebody's.
life, whether that's you being ahuman being and want to make a
difference or you recognizingthat maybe that's something that
(47:50):
you're being called to do.
Take that as your message to bethe person in somebody else's
life that Puts down that ropeinto that pit of loneliness that
that person has been goingthrough and, and be that change
for that person so that they canclimb back into the light and,
(48:11):
and feel that presence and feellike somebody else cares and
that they're not absent and thatthey are cared for.
That can make all thedifference.
You literally could savesomebody's life.
Ben (48:25):
In this season of life, you may feel utterly alone.
You may feel stricken by thealmighty.
You may feel like you've got allthe friends in the world or
maybe somewhere in between.
That's the beauty of life.
We're all in different stagesand every stage is okay.
(48:46):
There's no judgment.
You're not in the right place orthe wrong place.
You're just in the place thatyou are.
And hopefully this episode hasshown you that.
There's other places that yourcurrent experience doesn't have
to be forever.
And that there will be times inyour life where there is a lot
of connectedness and there maybe seasons where there's
(49:09):
loneliness, but in it all it'sgood and life can come from it.
Even in the.
darkest, hopeless situations.
There's a lifeline.
Maybe you need that lifeline andmaybe you need to extend that
lifeline to somebody else.
Jim (49:29):
There is hope, but you may be surprised to find out that
you are the hope in someoneelse's life.
Ben (49:38):
Absolutely.
Jim (49:40):
You know, Ben, we plan these episodes and sometimes we
think, Oh yeah, nice little, Idon't know if it'd be deep.
I don't think either one of usthought this would be light
hearted necessarily, but.
Ben (49:51):
Certainly not deep to the level that it was.
No.
But it's good.
Jim (49:55):
It's good.
I hope that we were able to helpsomebody out.
Real men hug, but they alsoreach out to.
People that need, that was bad.
Ben (50:09):
That's getting edited out.
Real men hug and they also checkin on their people.
That's right.
Jim (50:20):
The
Ben (50:20):
end.
Jim (50:21):
The end.
Ben (50:23):
I have to pee.
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