August 22, 2024 • 41 mins
In this 20th episode of Real Men Hug, Ben and Jim explore the multifaceted nature of gratitude. Ben shares his unique perspective from a life spent rubbing elbows with both CEOs and the homeless, offering deep reflections on how gratitude manifests across different walks of life.
The episode dives into the challenges of maintaining gratitude amidst privilege and adversity, with Ben providing thoughtful insights on how to find balance in a world often defined by extremes. Jim brings his own experiences to the table, discussing how a simple Jenga block exercise helped him and his wife rediscover thankfulness during a tough season.
Together, they tackle the obstacles that can hinder gratitude—such as entitlement, indifference, and comparison—and offer practical strategies to cultivate a mindset of thankfulness, no matter your circumstances. This episode is a thoughtful exploration of how gratitude can reshape our perspectives and enhance our lives.
Join Ben and Jim for a rich conversation filled with personal stories, practical advice, and a challenge to reflect on what you’re grateful for in your own life.
And hey, if you appreciate what we’re doing here and want to support the show, consider buying us a coffee! Your support helps us keep these conversations going.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jim (00:01):
Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Jim.
Ben (00:07):
And I'm Ben.
Jim (00:09):
Welcome to the show.
Welcome to the show.
Welcome to the show.
Never gets old, Ben.
Never gets old.
Never ever.
I am grateful for the time thatwe have spent together, Ben.
Ben (00:26):
It's a lot of hours, if you think about it.
A lot of
Jim (00:28):
hours.
Is this number 20?
Is this the big 2 0?
Ben (00:32):
Is it?
Jim (00:33):
I think it is.
Mmm.
Doubt about it.
Ben (00:38):
I don't know.
Jim (00:39):
Episode 19 was with Dr.
Matt.
This is episode 20.
Wow.
Can you believe it?
Ben (00:48):
I can't.
Apparently,
Jim (00:49):
apparently not.
You thought we were stuck
Ben (00:51):
in the past.
They can, we're on episode 19.
Jim (00:54):
18 is impressive.
I mean, that's a legal adultright there.
Ben (00:56):
Yeah.
Andy and I just celebrated our18th anniversary.
Oh,
Jim (01:00):
very nice.
Congratulations.
Ben (01:03):
I'm grateful for my wife and the 18 years we've spent
together.
Jim (01:08):
Yeah, we're talking about what we're grateful for because
we thought that would be a goodtopic.
Ben (01:13):
How often do you find yourself expressing gratitude?
Jim (01:17):
You've heard me share my door knocking experience.
It was traumatizing, You canmake a big difference just by
not being a jerk I actuallythink of door knocking that
somebody told me right away,I'm, I am not interested, but I
would like to pray for you.
If you're interested, Iunderstand that you have other
(01:38):
doors to knock on.
So I'm not one of those guysthat's going to grab your arm
and hold you.
But if you feel like you needsome encouragement, I'd be happy
to spend a little bit of timewith you.
so To have somebody, instead oftreating me like a nuisance,
actually taking the time to sitdown with me and pray for me, it
was huge.
(02:00):
when you can do something with akind heart.
And, and take a minute just totake stock of the person in
front of you.
Not the answer you wereexpecting, huh?
Ben (02:11):
No, I didn't expect that to go into door knockers.
recently we had an electricianthat came out and he did a
number of jobs and he was Very,very good at what he did.
Now you would think that perhapsthe amount of money we paid him
would be thanks enough for thework that he did.
(02:34):
But I just felt compelled onSaturday to send him a text.
Thank you so much for the workyou did.
I've used the outlets you put inseveral times, and it's so nice
that we don't have to flip aswitch in the garage to make our
garage door openers work.
It's a great convenience.
It's made life a lot easier.
(02:55):
I appreciate you.
I'd like to think that I madehis day a little bit brighter,
but even if I didn't, I havethat satisfaction of expressing
gratitude, Your bit about thedoor knocking it's all making me
think about gratitude a littlebit differently.
Jim (03:13):
Yeah, your average person, I really do feel like probably
is underappreciated.
You can change somebody's life.
It makes a huge difference.
So yeah, that other side ofgratitude is What you can do to
impact somebody else is that ishuge.
Ben (03:30):
Receiving gratitude, it can change a terrible day into a
good day.
I mean, just hearing thanks fromsomebody who's genuinely saying
that.
That's really interesting.
Jim (03:43):
When you think of gratitude, we have been talking
about a very specific part ofit, being grateful for a
particular individual, usingyour electrician example.
But I think the original.
Topic was proposed as sort of a,it's really easy to get mired in
(04:05):
depression or get mired in acomplaint culture or how social
media has a tendency to spiralus towards negativity and all
that kind of stuff.
That gratitude can be a counterto that and is even something
that chemically can alter yourbrain to the extent that.
(04:26):
Like you just start feelingbetter just for being grateful
for stuff.
So when I'm grateful for thefood that's in front of me,
rather than I am awesome and Iworked hard and paid for this
and nobody owes me anything, Idon't know anybody, anything,
cause I'm awesome.
And that's why I have food.
Ben (04:44):
I'm a self made man.
Jim (04:46):
Yeah, I get what you're saying.
And I do think that.
It's fun to talk about thatthere's the other side of it,
but I don't think it's I thinkit's the opposite of selfish to
be grateful for things.
In your life, right?
You know,
Ben (05:00):
absolutely not.
It's just easy to think ofgratitude as something that only
benefits me.
Right.
And that's just a short sightedview of what gratitude truly is.
Jim (05:12):
Yeah, I love that Ben.
No, absolutely.
You're spot on with that I thinkthat it can make a huge impact
on the people around you,especially the people that are
closest to you when we were inSouth Carolina and we were just
going through everything reallyslamming us, one of the toughest
(05:34):
seasons in our marriage, we haveyoung kids, we're completely
displaced from anything andeverything.
And we just felt lost anddepressed.
Then what do we do?
And it was so easy to make alist of all the horrible things
that had happened that you coulddo in a heartbeat.
But trying to think of somethingto be grateful for was actually
(05:59):
really tough.
And so I challenged myself, Idon't know why it popped into my
head, but I'm like, what issomething that I can use as a
token?
And one of the, if not the firstthing that I thought of was
Jenga blocks.
Because I thought I can writewhat I'm grateful for on this
(06:20):
Jenga block and then build atower of gratitude over the
year.
Wow, that's awesome.
There are 54.
Jenga blocks in a tower.
So that's two weeks where youdid two blocks
inconveniently, two extra ones in your Jenga tower, but it
actually ended up being reallyneat because at the end of the
(06:41):
year, my wife and I, after doingthe 52nd week of Jenga, of
gratitude.
What are we grateful for thisweek?
We both came up with the onething, the one highlight of the
year that we were most gratefulfor.
So what initially was afrustration that it didn't work
out a perfect 52 cause I lovedthe building a tower idea.
(07:03):
It actually ended up beingreally neat.
And every week I would think ofsomething to put on that.
And what was even more neat is Ifound over time, my wife was
excited and wanted me to ask herand involve her in that
conversation too.
Cause she also wanted to thinkabout, okay, what is it that I'm
(07:27):
grateful for?
Because we were both just goingthrough it and that exercise in
gratitude.
I really think saved us in a lotof ways because we were in such
a dark place that it seems likea silly thing, but that Jenga
tower was an anchor to oursanity.
And I know for me.
(07:50):
Focusing on that gratitudereally did change my mindset and
helped me be a more positiveperson.
Ben (07:57):
That, experience in South Carolina, wasn't necessarily a
shining highlight reel of lifefor Jim Van Stensel.
That causes my brain to thinkabout gratitude from the
perspective of Maslow'shierarchy of needs, sometimes I
(08:17):
think that the ability to evenbe grateful you need a certain
base level of needs that aremet.
what do you think?
Jim (08:29):
I would actually argue the opposite, that the more
privileged you are, the harderit is to be grateful there's a
certain level of humility thatyou need to be truly grateful.
The whole Maslow's hierarchy, ifyou're homeless and you're
struggling to find something toeat, then it's tough, right?
(08:51):
It's so much easier for them tobe grateful for something as
simple as a hot meal.
I'll throw it back at you do youthink you can be grateful, but
at the same time feel like youdeserve it?
Cause you're the best kind ofthing.
Ben (09:07):
I think it takes a certain level of privilege or even
dismissal of that class ofpeople to say that.
So I'm not disagreeing with younecessarily, but having been
around people who have nothing,who are homeless, who are
destitute, I don't want to painttoo broadly with a huge
(09:31):
paintbrush here, but if you cometo a point in your life where
you are completely destitute,and you have nothing, you have
no one, you are at the end ofyour rope, gratitude is like the
last thing on people like that.
(09:51):
It's the last thing on theirmind And I think that there's
also a certain aspect of there'sconditions that keep people on
the street that keep people inthose Circumstances and until
you've dealt with those things,whether it's a mental health
condition or a drug abuse orwhatever the case is, it's like
(10:14):
that also stands in the way ofgratitude.
So I don't know.
I think it's just too much of asimplification to say that those
who have less than us have aneasier time being grateful,
right?
Because I don't think they cantruly experience gratitude in
their lowly of circumstances.
(10:36):
Privilege does not necessarily,dismantle gratitude.
I know people who have a lot ofprivilege and who have a lot of
abundance in their life, butthey also are some of the most
grateful people that I know.
Some of them have come frompositions where they did not
(10:57):
have that.
Spoon fed to them their entirelives.
Jim (11:01):
I don't disagree with anything you said.
I actually think that we're bothkind of missing the point that
the other person is trying tomake.
I think When you were talkingabout somebody who is truly in
that desperate situation, whatI'm hearing is somebody who
doesn't have a support system.
Ben (11:19):
Yeah.
I mean, and it could be thatthey burned their support system
because of their lifecircumstances.
one thing that comes to mindwith that thought track is just
this tendency that I've becomeaware of in myself.
And I see it all over the place.
It's usually well meaningpeople, but it's this tendency
or this trend to tokenize peoplegroups for a learning example,
(11:45):
for an illustration, it's almostlike constantly having a sermon
that you're giving or a message,and you're just using.
people and their experiences andwhatnot to make a point.
And I think that just takes awayfrom this idea of gratitude.
Because if the needy or thosewho are less fortunate, the only
(12:10):
time that we think about them iswhen we are grateful for the
things that we have.
You know, we hear things like,well, look at those who live on
the street.
You should be grateful for X YZ.
Oh, yeah, and I'm like You'renot wrong, but man That's very
dismissive of the people wholive on the street.
(12:33):
So I just have a real problemwith people who tokenize the,
the circumstances in otherpeople's lives and use them as a
rationale to justify orencourage gratitude, like that
just doesn't feel like genuinegratitude.
Jim (12:51):
When I was thinking of somebody who is low on that.
Maslow's hierarchy.
I was thinking of both my ownpersonal experiences and
anecdotes from mission trips andgoing to some of those third
world countries where you havepeople, they don't have
electricity, they don't haveindoor plumbing.
They all live in this.
Tiny shack together and they arehappier than your average
(13:15):
American because they have eachother and because they have
everything that they need.
I think that's where my mind wasgoing to with gratitude, not to
the person who has completelydriven off anybody and everybody
that they care about, or who wasthrown out of, of that system,
some outside of their owncontrol.
(13:37):
I wouldn't disagree with youthere that I think that person.
I would absolutely agree it isprivileged to, to be able to
say, well, you should begrateful because you normally
don't get a sandwich and todayyou did.
So that's, that is not what Iwas trying to imply.
Kind of the opposite that I justthink that I think that there is
(13:58):
something that we can learn topeople that you might initially
perceive as less than that.
It can be more tough to begrateful for something when, you
don't have that perspective ofwhat it's like to not have that
thing, It's like you're suddenlyvery grateful for the capacity
(14:19):
to breathe through your nose.
When you have a cold, you'relike, oh my gosh, I cannot wait
until I can breathe through thenose.
But if you've never had that,you don't realize.
How great it is to be able tobreathe through your nose or
like my wife has terriblemigraines.
I am grateful that I don't havenear daily headaches, but if my
(14:43):
wife was cured tomorrow, you canbet your ass that she would be
more grateful than I am to nothave those headaches or not have
back pain, you know?
So I guess I think that's morewhat I'm trying to.
To get at, but that's a helpfulconversation.
Cause you're right.
I think it's really easy to lumppeople into categories and be
(15:04):
like, well, those people aren'tgrateful and jump into that
tribalism that we have chastisedso much in other, in other
episodes.
Ben (15:12):
Yes, if we're just using those that are less fortunate
than us as a measuring stick forour level of gratitude, we've
completely missed the boat andwe're not seeing that big
picture of, well, what aboutthat person and their
experience?
Is there anything in their lifethat they can truly be grateful
(15:36):
for?
And.
Instead of tokenizing orsermonizing or, you know, using
them as a teaching point, whyaren't we, going to them and
getting to know them as a personand finding out for ourselves
instead of cheapening thatrelationship.
And again, all of my commentsand tangents and the things I
(15:59):
bring up with gratitude arebased on my lived experience and
every Sunday for the last.
almost four years, we've beenattending church and rubbing
elbows with people who arehomeless.
And it's just really shifting myperspective and helping me to
see how I've approached certainpeople groups with a certain
(16:22):
level of privilege.
I do have a lot to be gratefulfor.
And I want to Be the type ofperson that not only is grateful
for those things but alsocreates opportunities and offers
resources and It helps peoplefind a life where they also can
experience gratitude.
Jim (16:44):
That's interesting.
So you initially brought uplike, Hey, do you think that
somebody who has nothing, canthey be grateful?
Which then spawns a conversationabout if you're extremely
privileged versus not privilegedat all.
And then ironically, sort of ourown.
Self judgment on, Hey, maybe itshouldn't be a litmus test.
(17:06):
Gratitude really shouldn't besomething out of a comparison to
anybody else.
Gratitude is a way to remindyour brain that it's okay to
just be thankful and happy thatyou have this hot meal in front
of you, whether you have alwayshad hot meals and never had to
worry about food or if it's adaily struggle, that gratitude
(17:29):
is an individual journey that weall find ourselves on and that
we sabotage by comparing it toother people's journeys.
Ben (17:40):
Yeah, and I think there's other ways that we can sabotage
too.
We've talked about a couple ofthem already.
We talked about entitlement.
That view that I deserve this.
But what about things likeindifference or resentment.
How do you handle those?
Because honestly, in my ownexperience, I can think of times
(18:03):
where I have resented people.
I'll see somebody who maybe hassomething that I feel like I
deserve and I don't have it.
So in those moments where wefeel resentment creeping in,
what do we do to stop that?
Jim (18:23):
Comparison is the thief of joy.
Something that my counselor saidto me once was, if you didn't
have anybody to compare yourselfto, you would be fine.
And I'm like, well, I mean,that's true to some extent, but
it was like, no, no, no.
Even if you compare yourself toa hundred years ago, the most
(18:46):
rich person wouldn't have someof the experiences that we have
today that we just don't have.
Expect.
We even have sort of this timesnobbery.
So even the fact that you wereborn in 1983 or whenever it was,
that 84.
1984.
That's.
Privilege right there.
(19:07):
So going back to your initialquestion, I think when you do
compare yourself to otherpeople, it's really easy to be
resentful and for that gratitudeto fall by the wayside.
But if you remember thatgratitude is that individual
journey rather than how you rateand compare to other people,
(19:31):
it's a helpful exercise tothink, I'm okay.
It's true.
If I wasn't comparing myself toother people around me, then I
probably would be okay.
It's that comparison journeythat I think it's helpful for me
(19:51):
to consider what is important tome.
And do I have those things?
And even if I don't have all ofthem, I can choose to be
grateful for the ones that I dohave.
And either work on the ones thatI don't or accept the fact that
those things aren't going to bethere or I can lean into
(20:14):
bitterness and comparison andnothing has changed other than
I'm more miserable than I wasbefore.
I do recognize that even thosestatements come from a position
of privilege for sure.
Ben (20:27):
Are you grateful for real men hug?
Well, the best thing that youcan do is tell a friend.
Jim (20:34):
Speaking of gratitude,
Ben (20:36):
we are pressing pause on the conversation to just convey
to you.
We're grateful for you and.
We want to invite you to sharethis show with somebody else.
Who in your life could stand adose of encouragement or, hmm, I
didn't think of that before.
Jim (20:55):
I dare say we are grateful for you and what would really
fill us with a heart ofgratitude is if you would pass
on the show and refer us to afriend.
Ben (21:04):
We love it when we hear stories of people telling us
that they listened because theirfriend said that they should
check it out and they did andthey loved it.
Tell a friend today.
Jim (21:15):
Thanks so much for listening to the show pass it on
share the love.
Thanks so much for listening toreal men hug Back to the show..
Ben (21:25):
The standing in life to have things to be grateful for
yeah is something that noteverybody has and I think that's
what throws me off because I ina given week I rub shoulders
with CEOs CFOs chief of staffvice presidents of companies and
(21:47):
privilege everywhere And thenSundays and other times during
the week, I'm rubbing elbowswith the opposite and it just
has me like in this weird middlezone of, what is gratitude
really?
What is the definition or whatis an understanding of gratitude
(22:10):
that both sides would agree on?
That's what I'm after.
Jim (22:13):
It is an interesting thought too, isn't it?
Because a lot of it is framed byeven our country, right?
Like, because we are such anachievement oriented country.
You, what do you ask when, whenyou meet somebody, it's like,
Oh, what do you do?
That's the first question.
(22:34):
That's so we're sitting heretalking about gratitude and it's
interesting, like what comes tomind, like, Oh, I'm so grateful
for.
And a lot of times it might besome physical.
Object or monetary, whateverit's interesting that even the
gratitude is shaped by that sortof achievement oriented thing
(22:57):
that I think, for instance, Dr.
Matt was on our show, um, in ourlast episode and he expressed
gratitude for the fact that hewas passionate.
about working with gifted kidsand working with people with
ADHD and he was grateful for thePlatform that he had that he's
been able to travelInternationally to talk to all
(23:20):
these groups of people But Ialso know somebody who is a
great counselor and is ofsimilar age And struggling to
pay the bills, barely making itin life.
Does that person have less to begrateful for if that wasn't
(23:45):
their goal in life?
Or if that's not somethingthat's important to them?
It's interesting that gratitudea lot of times can be
achievement centric we compareourselves to other people and we
are grateful if we are equal toor greater than our immediate
peers.
Can we not be grateful in thatposition of less than, or just
(24:07):
grateful for those non tangiblenon monetary things that I think
for most people, they wouldagree that that's more important
in the first place.
You mentioned earlier there wassome other potential obstacles
that I'm just kind of curiouswhat other things you were
thinking of?
Ben (24:23):
There's two more that really come to mind.
One of them we've unpackedalready, but it's just that
entitlement idea.
I think that is one of thebiggest obstacles to gratitude
is just this perspective of,well, I worked hard for this and
I deserve it and I should haveit.
And I think it's, it's difficultto be grateful when you feel
(24:45):
entitled.
However, I also think that it isnearly impossible to truly
experience gratitude when youare struggling with
indifference.
That is is my biggest hurdle inlife.
It's not that I feel like Idon't have enough.
It's not like I feel like I havetoo much.
(25:08):
It's just this thought of meh iswhat it is.
Just indifference, not reallymotivated to change anything.
Not really motivated toacknowledge the things that I'm
grateful for.
It's just this thought of meh iswhat it is.
That is my biggest roadblock togratitude.
(25:28):
I think that is probably a mixof trauma, when you have faced a
significant load of trauma andyou've carried it for so long,
you just kind of learn how tofunction in the world.
And you just get the things doneand you don't really feel A
whole lot other than blah,right?
(25:49):
And I think in thosecircumstances, gratitude can be
an amazing cure, but it's, it'strying to find a cure for
cancer.
I mean, it can be so hard to,pull out in those moments of
indifference.
Jim (26:06):
It's interesting to me that you, you label it as
indifference as opposed to sayresentment
Ben (26:13):
I think burnout is a cause of it.
I do think that we each have Acertain capacity for emotion,
for trauma, for all of thosethings that when we reach that
capacity and we've hit our max,there's just no room for
(26:35):
anything else.
If you were to light a candleand that candle burned and
burned Until there was no morewax and it was just a wick and
you light the wick, but then itimmediately goes out that's very
much what I would like in myexperience to I've been in
seasons where Gratitude simplywasn't possible because nothing
(26:58):
was sustainable.
Sure.
Nothing felt like it wasforever.
It was just Survival, lightingthe match and holding it in your
hand to light the wick until thethe match just burned and hit
your fingers and then yourfingers got singed.
That's what it feels likesometimes.
(27:20):
Indifference because ofexhaustion, because of burnout.
And there's just not a capacityleft to be able to express
gratitude.
Jim (27:29):
I, I love the imagery that you're creating in my mind.
I'm a big analogy guy and you'retalking about burnout and.
When you're at the end of thewick, it's not gonna burn
anymore because you've alreadyused up all of the wax got me
thinking the Maslow's hierarchythings in your life are like
(27:50):
oxygen and When you don't havethem, there's no oxygen, and the
longer you've gone without that,the less oxygen there is,
There's a difference between aquick two week trauma that then
resolves itself versus somethingthat you've been battling for
five years or 10 years or Godforbid, 20 years, because
(28:12):
there's just no oxygen left.
I'm curious as you reflect onthat that.
indifference from trauma.
Does it feel like that to you?
Or it's just like, there's justnot enough gas in the tank to
even, even if I wanted to begrateful, there's just not that
igniting source for me to beable to do that.
Ben (28:32):
Yeah, it, it has felt like that.
Truth be told, expressing andputting words to that
indifference is.
is challenging, and it almostfeels like I'm in a therapy
session two episodes in a row.
But this is just the season oflife that I find myself in.
We've walked through some crazydeep valleys, and now that we
(28:57):
are kind of on the upswing andclimbing out of them, I'm
getting back to the top and I'mjust like, I'm tired.
I'm grateful that I'm climbingout of this and we've made it
through and it looks like thingsare shaping up better.
I mean, I feel like I should begrateful for those things, for
(29:20):
the change.
But I'm finding as I continue toclimb up and out and into what's
next, it just feels like.
I need new wax or I need a newgas tank.
maybe it is gratitude.
I know in the past we've donethings around Thanksgiving as a
(29:43):
family where we just took stockof all the things we were
thankful for and wrote them downand there is something very
medicinal about doing that.
So I think I'm prescribingmyself some gratitude time just
to really take stock of thatstuff.
Jim (30:02):
Yeah, I think gratitude can be.
Helpful with indifference andwith resentment too, and
bitterness and comparison, allthose things.
It's a pretty amazing tool ifyou think about it, it's just,
it can be really hard to do.
Given life circumstances, and Ithink that's why both of us on
the show at some point oranother have been like, either a
(30:25):
friend or a counselor says,well, you just need to be more
grateful.
Sometimes it leaves a bad tastein your mouth because without
someone walking besides you andrecognizing the fact that you
don't have any wax left and yourcandle is underwater and your
Bic is out of.
It is out of all of the lighterfluid.
I think when someone can see youin the position you are,
(30:48):
including yourself and recognizethat it may be more tough, but
it doesn't change the value ofbeing grateful.
I know for myself recently,especially when I found out that
I was going to lose those 3000experience hours over some
ridiculous clerical thing withthe state.
(31:11):
I mean, that just tore me apart.
And it was during that time thatI actually started asking my
kids around the dinner table,like, what are you guys thankful
for today?
I just needed to hear it.
And I needed to say it myself.
To remind me that, you knowwhat, it's not the end of the
world, things are still okay.
And it's just something thatI've really enjoyed sitting
(31:33):
around the table.
And hearing the things that mykids say brings me joy.
Sometimes it's something simplelike the dog.
they're grateful for Keanu orthey're grateful for, you know,
the pancakes that they're eatingfor dinner or whatever it is.
But sometimes it's justsomething out of the blue It
just really warms my heart andit reminds me that I really do
(31:56):
have a lot more to be thankfulfor than I think I realized.
I think you can do it at thetable.
If you're a journaling kind ofperson writing it down.
Pre show we were talking aboutthis and you said there's like a
brain chemistry component toexpressing gratitude.
I'm curious cause I haven't doneas much research on that side of
it.
Ben (32:15):
There was a podcast that was all about the brain that
I've been listening to.
And one of the episodes wasabout how gratitude, genuine
gratitude, when experienced by aperson authentically, and it's
not based in should haves oranybody telling you how to feel,
(32:36):
that it can have a tremendousimpact on your brain chemistry.
When we experience or expressgratitude, the prefrontal
cortex, which is involved in thehigher level thinking, decision
making, social interactions, Itcan improve our functioning in
(32:58):
that area.
So if we're struggling withrelationships or if we're
struggling with moral judgmentsor questioning what we should do
next in our lives, pausing, Toexpress gratitude and
acknowledge the things we'regrateful for Can help you steer
your brain towards being moreefficient and effective in using
(33:23):
that part of your brain to makethose grounding higher level
decisions, so gratitude Itutilizes your prefrontal cortex,
and then just as important,there's this part of your brain
called the anterior cingulatecortex, otherwise known as the
(33:45):
ACC.
This is a part of your brainthat helps you regulate and
process emotions.
And one way that you canactivate this part of your brain
is by expressing gratitude.
Now, it's the same part of yourbrain that's activated by any
other emotion, such as anger orindifference or whatever it is
(34:09):
that we talked about already.
But it can be activated bygratitude, which suggests that
gratitude can help regulate youremotions.
and increase your feelings ofconnection and empathy.
When you choose to engage inthinking about gratitude, it's
(34:30):
almost like medicine for yourbrain.
And there are actual hormonesand neurotransmitters that get
released as well when youexpress gratitude.
They've done brain studies onpeople and observed what happens
as they're reflecting on whatthey're grateful for.
dopamine, which is like a feelgood neurotransmitter, gets
(34:54):
released when you expressgratitude.
Serotonin which is key in moodregulating, and even oxytocin,
the bonding hormone, getsreleased when we engage in
expressing gratitude.
Gratitude is something that I'vebeen doing a lot of thinking,
(35:14):
reflecting, and researching on.
I think my homework and takeawayis To just practice it.
Yeah, don't let it be aparalysis by analysis Situation
of knowing all the things aboutgratitude, but never Allowing
myself to experience it.
Jim (35:35):
I love that.
It's always interesting to hearthe health studies that they do,
because if you think about it,right, if you're, if you're
stressed and not doing some ofthat gratitude, your blood
pressure raises.
Anecdotally, I've heard whenpeople are sick, your demeanor
and attitude and belief can allhave an impact on that recovery
(35:56):
time.
Just like you mentioned earlierwith the barriers to gratitude,
I think one that I would add inthere is negative self talk.
If you're constantly tellingyourself,, that you don't
deserve it or that you're a badperson or that nobody likes you
or Whatever the case may be,it's real tough to be grateful
(36:19):
because you've got your brainconstantly telling yourself that
you shouldn't be grateful forsomething.
And so that's something for methat I think focusing on
positive self talk.
Is a key step in the journey ofbeing grateful for the things
that I have
Ben (36:38):
well, I can't think of a better way to close the show
than to express what we'regrateful for.
So I'm going to go ahead andgive my gratitude muscle.
a workout because it's been awhile.
Stretch it out a bit.
Yeah, pull it out of the closet.
Try it on for size.
Make sure it still works.
Jim (36:58):
Try not to pull a muscle.
Ben (37:00):
Right?
No kidding.
I am grateful for All of theamazing people who are in my
corner that, show up at just theright time.
Whether it's my friend Jim, whois just a consistent figure over
the last 20 years I just knowJim's in my corner, and I'm in
(37:24):
his corner.
And That's something that I willnever take for granted.
And all the other people,whether it's my wife, my kids,
my church family, my workpeople.
I just have so many amazingpeople from all different walks
of life.
And I get to learn from them andcelebrate with them and hurt
(37:48):
with them.
It's pretty amazing to have thatkind of a circle.
around me, doing life with me.
So I am grateful for my peopleand the fact that I'm not alone
in this world.
How about you, Jim?
What are you grateful for?
Jim (38:04):
I think I'd have to say similar.
When I really think about whatI'm most grateful for, it is
that support system that wetalked about that I am immensely
grateful for my wife and thesupport that she's been over all
of these years.
I think that unconditionalpositive regard that they talk
about in counseling.
Just when you have somebody thathas your best interests at heart
(38:27):
and that is going to be therefor you.
Obviously every marriage has itsups and downs, but at the end of
the day, we've were there foreach other and having that
constant source in my life thatI can lean on is, is huge.
And even just my family oforigin, I work with a couple of
my brothers and my dad.
(38:47):
It's just such a blessing tohave people that care about you.
You can disagree and you canfight and you can be on opposite
ends of whatever argument youwant.
But at the end of the day,they'd still show up for you and
they'd still be there if you, ifyou really need them.
Even my sister in Colorado, Idon't get to see her physically
(39:11):
very often.
We talk over that Marco Poloapp, a lot of times we're able
to encourage each other.
And if nothing else, Dave offthe boredom of a long drive.
So it's just such a blessing tohave people that, that care
about you.
When I'm really getting down onmyself and struggling to flex
(39:31):
that gratitude muscle, I justhave to remind myself how
grateful I am for the peoplethat Are in my life, including
you, Ben.
I've absolutely loved recordingthis podcast with you and being
able to spend more timetogether, one or both of us has
a counseling session either inor prior to the, before the
(39:56):
recording.
Yours
Ben (39:56):
was before, mine was during, you know, I'm grateful
for it nonetheless.
Jim (40:02):
We should assign homework.
That's our homework for youtoday.
Turn off that negative self talkfor a moment, try to replace it
with something good and thinkabout what you're truly grateful
for in your life and maybe finda way to incorporate that into
your daily routine.
Gratitude is the new drug whoneeds those mind altering
(40:23):
substances when you can do thesame thing with just a bit of
gratitude.
That's right.
I'm high on gratitude.
Ben (40:32):
We just
Jim (40:32):
both
Ben (40:33):
did the same thing.
Jim (40:34):
They're the biggest nerds.
Ben (40:36):
Real men hug, but they also get high on gratitude.
Jim (40:40):
High on life.
Oh yeah.
And then just end the show.
Ben (40:48):
You started it.
So I guess I end it.
Jim (40:51):
Oh no.
We ended the show.
We gave them homework and yeah.
It's ended.
It's landed.
The plane has landed.
I
can drive home.
Also, you live so far away.
Why did you have to move?
You tripled my podcast commute,Ben.
Ben (41:06):
I'm sorry, Jim.
Jim (41:07):
I chastise you.
I'm not grateful for your newhouse
Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Jim.
Ben (00:07):
And I'm Ben.
Jim (00:09):
Welcome to the show.
Welcome to the show.
Welcome to the show.
Never gets old, Ben.
Never gets old.
Never ever.
I am grateful for the time thatwe have spent together, Ben.
Ben (00:26):
It's a lot of hours, if you think about it.
A lot of
Jim (00:28):
hours.
Is this number 20?
Is this the big 2 0?
Ben (00:32):
Is it?
Jim (00:33):
I think it is.
Mmm.
Doubt about it.
Ben (00:38):
I don't know.
Jim (00:39):
Episode 19 was with Dr.
Matt.
This is episode 20.
Wow.
Can you believe it?
Ben (00:48):
I can't.
Apparently,
Jim (00:49):
apparently not.
You thought we were stuck
Ben (00:51):
in the past.
They can, we're on episode 19.
Jim (00:54):
18 is impressive.
I mean, that's a legal adultright there.
Ben (00:56):
Yeah.
Andy and I just celebrated our18th anniversary.
Oh,
Jim (01:00):
very nice.
Congratulations.
Ben (01:03):
I'm grateful for my wife and the 18 years we've spent
together.
Jim (01:08):
Yeah, we're talking about what we're grateful for because
we thought that would be a goodtopic.
Ben (01:13):
How often do you find yourself expressing gratitude?
Jim (01:17):
You've heard me share my door knocking experience.
It was traumatizing, You canmake a big difference just by
not being a jerk I actuallythink of door knocking that
somebody told me right away,I'm, I am not interested, but I
would like to pray for you.
If you're interested, Iunderstand that you have other
(01:38):
doors to knock on.
So I'm not one of those guysthat's going to grab your arm
and hold you.
But if you feel like you needsome encouragement, I'd be happy
to spend a little bit of timewith you.
so To have somebody, instead oftreating me like a nuisance,
actually taking the time to sitdown with me and pray for me, it
was huge.
(02:00):
when you can do something with akind heart.
And, and take a minute just totake stock of the person in
front of you.
Not the answer you wereexpecting, huh?
Ben (02:11):
No, I didn't expect that to go into door knockers.
recently we had an electricianthat came out and he did a
number of jobs and he was Very,very good at what he did.
Now you would think that perhapsthe amount of money we paid him
would be thanks enough for thework that he did.
(02:34):
But I just felt compelled onSaturday to send him a text.
Thank you so much for the workyou did.
I've used the outlets you put inseveral times, and it's so nice
that we don't have to flip aswitch in the garage to make our
garage door openers work.
It's a great convenience.
It's made life a lot easier.
(02:55):
I appreciate you.
I'd like to think that I madehis day a little bit brighter,
but even if I didn't, I havethat satisfaction of expressing
gratitude, Your bit about thedoor knocking it's all making me
think about gratitude a littlebit differently.
Jim (03:13):
Yeah, your average person, I really do feel like probably
is underappreciated.
You can change somebody's life.
It makes a huge difference.
So yeah, that other side ofgratitude is What you can do to
impact somebody else is that ishuge.
Ben (03:30):
Receiving gratitude, it can change a terrible day into a
good day.
I mean, just hearing thanks fromsomebody who's genuinely saying
that.
That's really interesting.
Jim (03:43):
When you think of gratitude, we have been talking
about a very specific part ofit, being grateful for a
particular individual, usingyour electrician example.
But I think the original.
Topic was proposed as sort of a,it's really easy to get mired in
(04:05):
depression or get mired in acomplaint culture or how social
media has a tendency to spiralus towards negativity and all
that kind of stuff.
That gratitude can be a counterto that and is even something
that chemically can alter yourbrain to the extent that.
(04:26):
Like you just start feelingbetter just for being grateful
for stuff.
So when I'm grateful for thefood that's in front of me,
rather than I am awesome and Iworked hard and paid for this
and nobody owes me anything, Idon't know anybody, anything,
cause I'm awesome.
And that's why I have food.
Ben (04:44):
I'm a self made man.
Jim (04:46):
Yeah, I get what you're saying.
And I do think that.
It's fun to talk about thatthere's the other side of it,
but I don't think it's I thinkit's the opposite of selfish to
be grateful for things.
In your life, right?
You know,
Ben (05:00):
absolutely not.
It's just easy to think ofgratitude as something that only
benefits me.
Right.
And that's just a short sightedview of what gratitude truly is.
Jim (05:12):
Yeah, I love that Ben.
No, absolutely.
You're spot on with that I thinkthat it can make a huge impact
on the people around you,especially the people that are
closest to you when we were inSouth Carolina and we were just
going through everything reallyslamming us, one of the toughest
(05:34):
seasons in our marriage, we haveyoung kids, we're completely
displaced from anything andeverything.
And we just felt lost anddepressed.
Then what do we do?
And it was so easy to make alist of all the horrible things
that had happened that you coulddo in a heartbeat.
But trying to think of somethingto be grateful for was actually
(05:59):
really tough.
And so I challenged myself, Idon't know why it popped into my
head, but I'm like, what issomething that I can use as a
token?
And one of the, if not the firstthing that I thought of was
Jenga blocks.
Because I thought I can writewhat I'm grateful for on this
(06:20):
Jenga block and then build atower of gratitude over the
year.
Wow, that's awesome.
There are 54.
Jenga blocks in a tower.
So that's two weeks where youdid two blocks
inconveniently, two extra ones in your Jenga tower, but it
actually ended up being reallyneat because at the end of the
(06:41):
year, my wife and I, after doingthe 52nd week of Jenga, of
gratitude.
What are we grateful for thisweek?
We both came up with the onething, the one highlight of the
year that we were most gratefulfor.
So what initially was afrustration that it didn't work
out a perfect 52 cause I lovedthe building a tower idea.
(07:03):
It actually ended up beingreally neat.
And every week I would think ofsomething to put on that.
And what was even more neat is Ifound over time, my wife was
excited and wanted me to ask herand involve her in that
conversation too.
Cause she also wanted to thinkabout, okay, what is it that I'm
(07:27):
grateful for?
Because we were both just goingthrough it and that exercise in
gratitude.
I really think saved us in a lotof ways because we were in such
a dark place that it seems likea silly thing, but that Jenga
tower was an anchor to oursanity.
And I know for me.
(07:50):
Focusing on that gratitudereally did change my mindset and
helped me be a more positiveperson.
Ben (07:57):
That, experience in South Carolina, wasn't necessarily a
shining highlight reel of lifefor Jim Van Stensel.
That causes my brain to thinkabout gratitude from the
perspective of Maslow'shierarchy of needs, sometimes I
(08:17):
think that the ability to evenbe grateful you need a certain
base level of needs that aremet.
what do you think?
Jim (08:29):
I would actually argue the opposite, that the more
privileged you are, the harderit is to be grateful there's a
certain level of humility thatyou need to be truly grateful.
The whole Maslow's hierarchy, ifyou're homeless and you're
struggling to find something toeat, then it's tough, right?
(08:51):
It's so much easier for them tobe grateful for something as
simple as a hot meal.
I'll throw it back at you do youthink you can be grateful, but
at the same time feel like youdeserve it?
Cause you're the best kind ofthing.
Ben (09:07):
I think it takes a certain level of privilege or even
dismissal of that class ofpeople to say that.
So I'm not disagreeing with younecessarily, but having been
around people who have nothing,who are homeless, who are
destitute, I don't want to painttoo broadly with a huge
(09:31):
paintbrush here, but if you cometo a point in your life where
you are completely destitute,and you have nothing, you have
no one, you are at the end ofyour rope, gratitude is like the
last thing on people like that.
(09:51):
It's the last thing on theirmind And I think that there's
also a certain aspect of there'sconditions that keep people on
the street that keep people inthose Circumstances and until
you've dealt with those things,whether it's a mental health
condition or a drug abuse orwhatever the case is, it's like
(10:14):
that also stands in the way ofgratitude.
So I don't know.
I think it's just too much of asimplification to say that those
who have less than us have aneasier time being grateful,
right?
Because I don't think they cantruly experience gratitude in
their lowly of circumstances.
(10:36):
Privilege does not necessarily,dismantle gratitude.
I know people who have a lot ofprivilege and who have a lot of
abundance in their life, butthey also are some of the most
grateful people that I know.
Some of them have come frompositions where they did not
(10:57):
have that.
Spoon fed to them their entirelives.
Jim (11:01):
I don't disagree with anything you said.
I actually think that we're bothkind of missing the point that
the other person is trying tomake.
I think When you were talkingabout somebody who is truly in
that desperate situation, whatI'm hearing is somebody who
doesn't have a support system.
Ben (11:19):
Yeah.
I mean, and it could be thatthey burned their support system
because of their lifecircumstances.
one thing that comes to mindwith that thought track is just
this tendency that I've becomeaware of in myself.
And I see it all over the place.
It's usually well meaningpeople, but it's this tendency
or this trend to tokenize peoplegroups for a learning example,
(11:45):
for an illustration, it's almostlike constantly having a sermon
that you're giving or a message,and you're just using.
people and their experiences andwhatnot to make a point.
And I think that just takes awayfrom this idea of gratitude.
Because if the needy or thosewho are less fortunate, the only
(12:10):
time that we think about them iswhen we are grateful for the
things that we have.
You know, we hear things like,well, look at those who live on
the street.
You should be grateful for X YZ.
Oh, yeah, and I'm like You'renot wrong, but man That's very
dismissive of the people wholive on the street.
(12:33):
So I just have a real problemwith people who tokenize the,
the circumstances in otherpeople's lives and use them as a
rationale to justify orencourage gratitude, like that
just doesn't feel like genuinegratitude.
Jim (12:51):
When I was thinking of somebody who is low on that.
Maslow's hierarchy.
I was thinking of both my ownpersonal experiences and
anecdotes from mission trips andgoing to some of those third
world countries where you havepeople, they don't have
electricity, they don't haveindoor plumbing.
They all live in this.
Tiny shack together and they arehappier than your average
(13:15):
American because they have eachother and because they have
everything that they need.
I think that's where my mind wasgoing to with gratitude, not to
the person who has completelydriven off anybody and everybody
that they care about, or who wasthrown out of, of that system,
some outside of their owncontrol.
(13:37):
I wouldn't disagree with youthere that I think that person.
I would absolutely agree it isprivileged to, to be able to
say, well, you should begrateful because you normally
don't get a sandwich and todayyou did.
So that's, that is not what Iwas trying to imply.
Kind of the opposite that I justthink that I think that there is
(13:58):
something that we can learn topeople that you might initially
perceive as less than that.
It can be more tough to begrateful for something when, you
don't have that perspective ofwhat it's like to not have that
thing, It's like you're suddenlyvery grateful for the capacity
(14:19):
to breathe through your nose.
When you have a cold, you'relike, oh my gosh, I cannot wait
until I can breathe through thenose.
But if you've never had that,you don't realize.
How great it is to be able tobreathe through your nose or
like my wife has terriblemigraines.
I am grateful that I don't havenear daily headaches, but if my
(14:43):
wife was cured tomorrow, you canbet your ass that she would be
more grateful than I am to nothave those headaches or not have
back pain, you know?
So I guess I think that's morewhat I'm trying to.
To get at, but that's a helpfulconversation.
Cause you're right.
I think it's really easy to lumppeople into categories and be
(15:04):
like, well, those people aren'tgrateful and jump into that
tribalism that we have chastisedso much in other, in other
episodes.
Ben (15:12):
Yes, if we're just using those that are less fortunate
than us as a measuring stick forour level of gratitude, we've
completely missed the boat andwe're not seeing that big
picture of, well, what aboutthat person and their
experience?
Is there anything in their lifethat they can truly be grateful
(15:36):
for?
And.
Instead of tokenizing orsermonizing or, you know, using
them as a teaching point, whyaren't we, going to them and
getting to know them as a personand finding out for ourselves
instead of cheapening thatrelationship.
And again, all of my commentsand tangents and the things I
(15:59):
bring up with gratitude arebased on my lived experience and
every Sunday for the last.
almost four years, we've beenattending church and rubbing
elbows with people who arehomeless.
And it's just really shifting myperspective and helping me to
see how I've approached certainpeople groups with a certain
(16:22):
level of privilege.
I do have a lot to be gratefulfor.
And I want to Be the type ofperson that not only is grateful
for those things but alsocreates opportunities and offers
resources and It helps peoplefind a life where they also can
experience gratitude.
Jim (16:44):
That's interesting.
So you initially brought uplike, Hey, do you think that
somebody who has nothing, canthey be grateful?
Which then spawns a conversationabout if you're extremely
privileged versus not privilegedat all.
And then ironically, sort of ourown.
Self judgment on, Hey, maybe itshouldn't be a litmus test.
(17:06):
Gratitude really shouldn't besomething out of a comparison to
anybody else.
Gratitude is a way to remindyour brain that it's okay to
just be thankful and happy thatyou have this hot meal in front
of you, whether you have alwayshad hot meals and never had to
worry about food or if it's adaily struggle, that gratitude
(17:29):
is an individual journey that weall find ourselves on and that
we sabotage by comparing it toother people's journeys.
Ben (17:40):
Yeah, and I think there's other ways that we can sabotage
too.
We've talked about a couple ofthem already.
We talked about entitlement.
That view that I deserve this.
But what about things likeindifference or resentment.
How do you handle those?
Because honestly, in my ownexperience, I can think of times
(18:03):
where I have resented people.
I'll see somebody who maybe hassomething that I feel like I
deserve and I don't have it.
So in those moments where wefeel resentment creeping in,
what do we do to stop that?
Jim (18:23):
Comparison is the thief of joy.
Something that my counselor saidto me once was, if you didn't
have anybody to compare yourselfto, you would be fine.
And I'm like, well, I mean,that's true to some extent, but
it was like, no, no, no.
Even if you compare yourself toa hundred years ago, the most
(18:46):
rich person wouldn't have someof the experiences that we have
today that we just don't have.
Expect.
We even have sort of this timesnobbery.
So even the fact that you wereborn in 1983 or whenever it was,
that 84.
1984.
That's.
Privilege right there.
(19:07):
So going back to your initialquestion, I think when you do
compare yourself to otherpeople, it's really easy to be
resentful and for that gratitudeto fall by the wayside.
But if you remember thatgratitude is that individual
journey rather than how you rateand compare to other people,
(19:31):
it's a helpful exercise tothink, I'm okay.
It's true.
If I wasn't comparing myself toother people around me, then I
probably would be okay.
It's that comparison journeythat I think it's helpful for me
(19:51):
to consider what is important tome.
And do I have those things?
And even if I don't have all ofthem, I can choose to be
grateful for the ones that I dohave.
And either work on the ones thatI don't or accept the fact that
those things aren't going to bethere or I can lean into
(20:14):
bitterness and comparison andnothing has changed other than
I'm more miserable than I wasbefore.
I do recognize that even thosestatements come from a position
of privilege for sure.
Ben (20:27):
Are you grateful for real men hug?
Well, the best thing that youcan do is tell a friend.
Jim (20:34):
Speaking of gratitude,
Ben (20:36):
we are pressing pause on the conversation to just convey
to you.
We're grateful for you and.
We want to invite you to sharethis show with somebody else.
Who in your life could stand adose of encouragement or, hmm, I
didn't think of that before.
Jim (20:55):
I dare say we are grateful for you and what would really
fill us with a heart ofgratitude is if you would pass
on the show and refer us to afriend.
Ben (21:04):
We love it when we hear stories of people telling us
that they listened because theirfriend said that they should
check it out and they did andthey loved it.
Tell a friend today.
Jim (21:15):
Thanks so much for listening to the show pass it on
share the love.
Thanks so much for listening toreal men hug Back to the show..
Ben (21:25):
The standing in life to have things to be grateful for
yeah is something that noteverybody has and I think that's
what throws me off because I ina given week I rub shoulders
with CEOs CFOs chief of staffvice presidents of companies and
(21:47):
privilege everywhere And thenSundays and other times during
the week, I'm rubbing elbowswith the opposite and it just
has me like in this weird middlezone of, what is gratitude
really?
What is the definition or whatis an understanding of gratitude
(22:10):
that both sides would agree on?
That's what I'm after.
Jim (22:13):
It is an interesting thought too, isn't it?
Because a lot of it is framed byeven our country, right?
Like, because we are such anachievement oriented country.
You, what do you ask when, whenyou meet somebody, it's like,
Oh, what do you do?
That's the first question.
(22:34):
That's so we're sitting heretalking about gratitude and it's
interesting, like what comes tomind, like, Oh, I'm so grateful
for.
And a lot of times it might besome physical.
Object or monetary, whateverit's interesting that even the
gratitude is shaped by that sortof achievement oriented thing
(22:57):
that I think, for instance, Dr.
Matt was on our show, um, in ourlast episode and he expressed
gratitude for the fact that hewas passionate.
about working with gifted kidsand working with people with
ADHD and he was grateful for thePlatform that he had that he's
been able to travelInternationally to talk to all
(23:20):
these groups of people But Ialso know somebody who is a
great counselor and is ofsimilar age And struggling to
pay the bills, barely making itin life.
Does that person have less to begrateful for if that wasn't
(23:45):
their goal in life?
Or if that's not somethingthat's important to them?
It's interesting that gratitudea lot of times can be
achievement centric we compareourselves to other people and we
are grateful if we are equal toor greater than our immediate
peers.
Can we not be grateful in thatposition of less than, or just
(24:07):
grateful for those non tangiblenon monetary things that I think
for most people, they wouldagree that that's more important
in the first place.
You mentioned earlier there wassome other potential obstacles
that I'm just kind of curiouswhat other things you were
thinking of?
Ben (24:23):
There's two more that really come to mind.
One of them we've unpackedalready, but it's just that
entitlement idea.
I think that is one of thebiggest obstacles to gratitude
is just this perspective of,well, I worked hard for this and
I deserve it and I should haveit.
And I think it's, it's difficultto be grateful when you feel
(24:45):
entitled.
However, I also think that it isnearly impossible to truly
experience gratitude when youare struggling with
indifference.
That is is my biggest hurdle inlife.
It's not that I feel like Idon't have enough.
It's not like I feel like I havetoo much.
(25:08):
It's just this thought of meh iswhat it is.
Just indifference, not reallymotivated to change anything.
Not really motivated toacknowledge the things that I'm
grateful for.
It's just this thought of meh iswhat it is.
That is my biggest roadblock togratitude.
(25:28):
I think that is probably a mixof trauma, when you have faced a
significant load of trauma andyou've carried it for so long,
you just kind of learn how tofunction in the world.
And you just get the things doneand you don't really feel A
whole lot other than blah,right?
(25:49):
And I think in thosecircumstances, gratitude can be
an amazing cure, but it's, it'strying to find a cure for
cancer.
I mean, it can be so hard to,pull out in those moments of
indifference.
Jim (26:06):
It's interesting to me that you, you label it as
indifference as opposed to sayresentment
Ben (26:13):
I think burnout is a cause of it.
I do think that we each have Acertain capacity for emotion,
for trauma, for all of thosethings that when we reach that
capacity and we've hit our max,there's just no room for
(26:35):
anything else.
If you were to light a candleand that candle burned and
burned Until there was no morewax and it was just a wick and
you light the wick, but then itimmediately goes out that's very
much what I would like in myexperience to I've been in
seasons where Gratitude simplywasn't possible because nothing
(26:58):
was sustainable.
Sure.
Nothing felt like it wasforever.
It was just Survival, lightingthe match and holding it in your
hand to light the wick until thethe match just burned and hit
your fingers and then yourfingers got singed.
That's what it feels likesometimes.
(27:20):
Indifference because ofexhaustion, because of burnout.
And there's just not a capacityleft to be able to express
gratitude.
Jim (27:29):
I, I love the imagery that you're creating in my mind.
I'm a big analogy guy and you'retalking about burnout and.
When you're at the end of thewick, it's not gonna burn
anymore because you've alreadyused up all of the wax got me
thinking the Maslow's hierarchythings in your life are like
(27:50):
oxygen and When you don't havethem, there's no oxygen, and the
longer you've gone without that,the less oxygen there is,
There's a difference between aquick two week trauma that then
resolves itself versus somethingthat you've been battling for
five years or 10 years or Godforbid, 20 years, because
(28:12):
there's just no oxygen left.
I'm curious as you reflect onthat that.
indifference from trauma.
Does it feel like that to you?
Or it's just like, there's justnot enough gas in the tank to
even, even if I wanted to begrateful, there's just not that
igniting source for me to beable to do that.
Ben (28:32):
Yeah, it, it has felt like that.
Truth be told, expressing andputting words to that
indifference is.
is challenging, and it almostfeels like I'm in a therapy
session two episodes in a row.
But this is just the season oflife that I find myself in.
We've walked through some crazydeep valleys, and now that we
(28:57):
are kind of on the upswing andclimbing out of them, I'm
getting back to the top and I'mjust like, I'm tired.
I'm grateful that I'm climbingout of this and we've made it
through and it looks like thingsare shaping up better.
I mean, I feel like I should begrateful for those things, for
(29:20):
the change.
But I'm finding as I continue toclimb up and out and into what's
next, it just feels like.
I need new wax or I need a newgas tank.
maybe it is gratitude.
I know in the past we've donethings around Thanksgiving as a
(29:43):
family where we just took stockof all the things we were
thankful for and wrote them downand there is something very
medicinal about doing that.
So I think I'm prescribingmyself some gratitude time just
to really take stock of thatstuff.
Jim (30:02):
Yeah, I think gratitude can be.
Helpful with indifference andwith resentment too, and
bitterness and comparison, allthose things.
It's a pretty amazing tool ifyou think about it, it's just,
it can be really hard to do.
Given life circumstances, and Ithink that's why both of us on
the show at some point oranother have been like, either a
(30:25):
friend or a counselor says,well, you just need to be more
grateful.
Sometimes it leaves a bad tastein your mouth because without
someone walking besides you andrecognizing the fact that you
don't have any wax left and yourcandle is underwater and your
Bic is out of.
It is out of all of the lighterfluid.
I think when someone can see youin the position you are,
(30:48):
including yourself and recognizethat it may be more tough, but
it doesn't change the value ofbeing grateful.
I know for myself recently,especially when I found out that
I was going to lose those 3000experience hours over some
ridiculous clerical thing withthe state.
(31:11):
I mean, that just tore me apart.
And it was during that time thatI actually started asking my
kids around the dinner table,like, what are you guys thankful
for today?
I just needed to hear it.
And I needed to say it myself.
To remind me that, you knowwhat, it's not the end of the
world, things are still okay.
And it's just something thatI've really enjoyed sitting
(31:33):
around the table.
And hearing the things that mykids say brings me joy.
Sometimes it's something simplelike the dog.
they're grateful for Keanu orthey're grateful for, you know,
the pancakes that they're eatingfor dinner or whatever it is.
But sometimes it's justsomething out of the blue It
just really warms my heart andit reminds me that I really do
(31:56):
have a lot more to be thankfulfor than I think I realized.
I think you can do it at thetable.
If you're a journaling kind ofperson writing it down.
Pre show we were talking aboutthis and you said there's like a
brain chemistry component toexpressing gratitude.
I'm curious cause I haven't doneas much research on that side of
it.
Ben (32:15):
There was a podcast that was all about the brain that
I've been listening to.
And one of the episodes wasabout how gratitude, genuine
gratitude, when experienced by aperson authentically, and it's
not based in should haves oranybody telling you how to feel,
(32:36):
that it can have a tremendousimpact on your brain chemistry.
When we experience or expressgratitude, the prefrontal
cortex, which is involved in thehigher level thinking, decision
making, social interactions, Itcan improve our functioning in
(32:58):
that area.
So if we're struggling withrelationships or if we're
struggling with moral judgmentsor questioning what we should do
next in our lives, pausing, Toexpress gratitude and
acknowledge the things we'regrateful for Can help you steer
your brain towards being moreefficient and effective in using
(33:23):
that part of your brain to makethose grounding higher level
decisions, so gratitude Itutilizes your prefrontal cortex,
and then just as important,there's this part of your brain
called the anterior cingulatecortex, otherwise known as the
(33:45):
ACC.
This is a part of your brainthat helps you regulate and
process emotions.
And one way that you canactivate this part of your brain
is by expressing gratitude.
Now, it's the same part of yourbrain that's activated by any
other emotion, such as anger orindifference or whatever it is
(34:09):
that we talked about already.
But it can be activated bygratitude, which suggests that
gratitude can help regulate youremotions.
and increase your feelings ofconnection and empathy.
When you choose to engage inthinking about gratitude, it's
(34:30):
almost like medicine for yourbrain.
And there are actual hormonesand neurotransmitters that get
released as well when youexpress gratitude.
They've done brain studies onpeople and observed what happens
as they're reflecting on whatthey're grateful for.
dopamine, which is like a feelgood neurotransmitter, gets
(34:54):
released when you expressgratitude.
Serotonin which is key in moodregulating, and even oxytocin,
the bonding hormone, getsreleased when we engage in
expressing gratitude.
Gratitude is something that I'vebeen doing a lot of thinking,
(35:14):
reflecting, and researching on.
I think my homework and takeawayis To just practice it.
Yeah, don't let it be aparalysis by analysis Situation
of knowing all the things aboutgratitude, but never Allowing
myself to experience it.
Jim (35:35):
I love that.
It's always interesting to hearthe health studies that they do,
because if you think about it,right, if you're, if you're
stressed and not doing some ofthat gratitude, your blood
pressure raises.
Anecdotally, I've heard whenpeople are sick, your demeanor
and attitude and belief can allhave an impact on that recovery
(35:56):
time.
Just like you mentioned earlierwith the barriers to gratitude,
I think one that I would add inthere is negative self talk.
If you're constantly tellingyourself,, that you don't
deserve it or that you're a badperson or that nobody likes you
or Whatever the case may be,it's real tough to be grateful
(36:19):
because you've got your brainconstantly telling yourself that
you shouldn't be grateful forsomething.
And so that's something for methat I think focusing on
positive self talk.
Is a key step in the journey ofbeing grateful for the things
that I have
Ben (36:38):
well, I can't think of a better way to close the show
than to express what we'regrateful for.
So I'm going to go ahead andgive my gratitude muscle.
a workout because it's been awhile.
Stretch it out a bit.
Yeah, pull it out of the closet.
Try it on for size.
Make sure it still works.
Jim (36:58):
Try not to pull a muscle.
Ben (37:00):
Right?
No kidding.
I am grateful for All of theamazing people who are in my
corner that, show up at just theright time.
Whether it's my friend Jim, whois just a consistent figure over
the last 20 years I just knowJim's in my corner, and I'm in
(37:24):
his corner.
And That's something that I willnever take for granted.
And all the other people,whether it's my wife, my kids,
my church family, my workpeople.
I just have so many amazingpeople from all different walks
of life.
And I get to learn from them andcelebrate with them and hurt
(37:48):
with them.
It's pretty amazing to have thatkind of a circle.
around me, doing life with me.
So I am grateful for my peopleand the fact that I'm not alone
in this world.
How about you, Jim?
What are you grateful for?
Jim (38:04):
I think I'd have to say similar.
When I really think about whatI'm most grateful for, it is
that support system that wetalked about that I am immensely
grateful for my wife and thesupport that she's been over all
of these years.
I think that unconditionalpositive regard that they talk
about in counseling.
Just when you have somebody thathas your best interests at heart
(38:27):
and that is going to be therefor you.
Obviously every marriage has itsups and downs, but at the end of
the day, we've were there foreach other and having that
constant source in my life thatI can lean on is, is huge.
And even just my family oforigin, I work with a couple of
my brothers and my dad.
(38:47):
It's just such a blessing tohave people that care about you.
You can disagree and you canfight and you can be on opposite
ends of whatever argument youwant.
But at the end of the day,they'd still show up for you and
they'd still be there if you, ifyou really need them.
Even my sister in Colorado, Idon't get to see her physically
(39:11):
very often.
We talk over that Marco Poloapp, a lot of times we're able
to encourage each other.
And if nothing else, Dave offthe boredom of a long drive.
So it's just such a blessing tohave people that, that care
about you.
When I'm really getting down onmyself and struggling to flex
(39:31):
that gratitude muscle, I justhave to remind myself how
grateful I am for the peoplethat Are in my life, including
you, Ben.
I've absolutely loved recordingthis podcast with you and being
able to spend more timetogether, one or both of us has
a counseling session either inor prior to the, before the
(39:56):
recording.
Yours
Ben (39:56):
was before, mine was during, you know, I'm grateful
for it nonetheless.
Jim (40:02):
We should assign homework.
That's our homework for youtoday.
Turn off that negative self talkfor a moment, try to replace it
with something good and thinkabout what you're truly grateful
for in your life and maybe finda way to incorporate that into
your daily routine.
Gratitude is the new drug whoneeds those mind altering
(40:23):
substances when you can do thesame thing with just a bit of
gratitude.
That's right.
I'm high on gratitude.
Ben (40:32):
We just
Jim (40:32):
both
Ben (40:33):
did the same thing.
Jim (40:34):
They're the biggest nerds.
Ben (40:36):
Real men hug, but they also get high on gratitude.
Jim (40:40):
High on life.
Oh yeah.
And then just end the show.
Ben (40:48):
You started it.
So I guess I end it.
Jim (40:51):
Oh no.
We ended the show.
We gave them homework and yeah.
It's ended.
It's landed.
The plane has landed.
I
can drive home.
Also, you live so far away.
Why did you have to move?
You tripled my podcast commute,Ben.
Ben (41:06):
I'm sorry, Jim.
Jim (41:07):
I chastise you.
I'm not grateful for your newhouse
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