September 5, 2024 • 36 mins
In this episode of Real Men Hug, hosts Jim and Ben take a deep dive into the concept of empathy, highlighting the crucial difference between empathy and sympathy. While sympathy involves feeling for someone, empathy goes a step further by sharing and bearing the weight of someone else’s burdens. Through personal stories, such as Ben's journey with health struggles, they explore how empathy can take an emotional toll, especially when it comes to balancing caring for others with caring for oneself.
The discussion touches on both the challenges of empathizing with people in pain and the surprising difficulty of sharing in others' joy. Jim and Ben also share practical ways to demonstrate empathy, such as being a “laundry fairy” and offering meaningful, tangible help.
Key Discussion Points:
- Empathy vs. Sympathy: Why empathy involves a deeper, more emotional connection.
- Empathy in Joy and Sorrow: The difficulty of empathizing with happiness and why pain often feels easier to connect with.
- Setting Boundaries: The importance of balancing your own emotional health while supporting others.
- Practical Empathy: Real-world examples of how small acts of service, like doing laundry or bringing a meal, can make a big difference.
The episode wraps up by underscoring the importance of stepping into people’s lives in a meaningful way, rather than offering vague promises of support.
And hey, if you appreciate what we’re doing here and want to support the show, consider buying us a coffee! Your support helps us keep these conversations going.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jim (00:00):
Welcome to real men hug a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Jim
Ben (00:06):
And I'm Ben.
Jim (00:08):
Welcome to the show.
Welcome to the
Ben (00:12):
to the show.
I'm a
Jim (00:17):
was that?
Ben (00:19):
My brain enjoys the slowness of life.
Jim (00:24):
not.
I would say you and me both, butthat'd be a lie.
I, my brain is already at theend of the episode, just
chilling out.
I'm starting to edit
Ben (00:33):
Nice.
Just live in the moment,
Jim (00:36):
live in the
Ben (00:38):
Be here.
Jim (00:39):
is what my kid is always telling me that you're supposed
to just have fun.
Stop taking everything soseriously.
Ben (00:47):
Wow.
Jim (00:48):
sometimes when I'm doing like leisure activities.
Oh my gosh.
I was painting.
I've talked on the show abouthow I like paint miniatures.
And my kid was like, you.
You just have to find somethingto paint that's going to be fun.
Don't paint something that youthink it's going to be, you
know, you have to use it forthis campaign or whatever.
Just paint for fun.
(01:08):
And so I did.
I painted a little bug bear witha pumpkin for a head and I had a
blast doing that.
So he's a wise little kid.
Ben (01:17):
That he is, man.
Jim (01:19):
Talking about empathy today,
Ben (01:22):
Empathy.
Jim (01:23):
really are like in slow process mode today.
Aren't you?
I would like to talk aboutempathy, but first I'm going to
take a nap.
Ben (01:31):
Good night.
I'll be right back in 30minutes.
Jim (01:34):
Gunna chew on some molasses.
Maybe you're just drained fromall the empathy that you've had
to use.
Ben (01:42):
well be.
Jim (01:43):
empathy is used up.
I walked through the door andjust instantly drained you.
You're like, Oh man,
Ben (01:49):
Oh,
Jim (01:50):
Exactly.
It is though.
It takes a toll.
Ben (01:53):
before we jump into empathy, let's just unbox that
word.
What does empathy mean to you,Jim?
Jim (02:02):
I, I'm not here interested in the Miriam Webster dictionary
version of it.
And for me, the differencebetween sympathy and empathy is
sympathy is something you feelfor somebody.
I am sad that Ben has healthproblems.
So anyway.
And I go and I go on about myday.
(02:23):
That to me is, is sympathy.
Empathy is deeper than that, Iguess, is what I would say.
Empathy is where I grieve for myfriend who has this medical
problem.
I weep for my friend who hasthis medical problem.
And not only is it an, amplitudething, I guess, for lack of a
(02:46):
better word, but it's, It's thatit is now a part of me as well
because I care about Ben.
I feel what he feels and it'snot to say that I feel the same
medical problems, but I feel theweight and burden of this hard
thing that he's going through asif it were my own burden.
(03:08):
And.
The tough part is for the trueempath, you care about
everybody,
Ben (03:16):
Absolutely.
Jim (03:17):
even people that you don't like, and I would say it may be
getting to a Seek counselinglevel if, if you've gotten to
the point where even celebritiesor, you know, like notorious
people, like if you feel upsetfor what, you know, a
(03:38):
presidential candidate is goingthrough, then find, find a way
to maybe take a step back fromthat.
But I know for me, it gets tothe point where even if it's
somebody, say a coworker that Idon't necessarily.
Talk to, or do things with in apast job, I would still feel bad
(04:00):
for something that they weregoing through and take a little
bit of that weight with me andbring that home with me.
So to me, that's what it is.
It's empathy is it's not justfeeling sad for somebody, but
it's kind of like sittingalongside with them and sharing
that burden, whether you want toor not, it just kind of hits
you.
Ben (04:18):
you.
Yeah, definitely.
I would agree.
My definition of empathy isquite similar.
For me, when I think of empathy,just the image of sitting next
to somebody, putting my armaround them and conveying this,
I'm here.
(04:39):
I feel what you feel.
I know this is hard.
I don't have all the answers foryou, but I have my presence to
offer you and By giving you mypresence, I'm conveying to you
that I sense the weight of thesituation that you are in.
(04:59):
You feel it leaving your body.
I'm reminded of the story in theBible of how the woman touched
Jesus's garment.
And if you, want an example ofempathy, I think you've got it
right there.
He, in this huge crowd ofpeople.
He realizes that somebodytouched his garment, the hem of
(05:22):
his garment.
And I feel like that's whatempathy feels like in the
moment.
You just know when it's engaged.
It's just this zap of, Oh, yep.
I'm feeling this other person'sstuff.
And this is heavy.
Jim (05:38):
and I think it's an important distinction to make
that, just because you don'tfeel strongly doesn't mean that
you aren't capable of empathy.
Or if you find yourself.
More drawn to that word,sympathy.
Someone can still be there forsomebody else without
(05:59):
necessarily taking on thatweight, your capacity to, to
give of yourself and be in themoment with somebody else, call
it empathy, call it sympathy,call it what you will, just
because you're not, you know,going home.
Feeling sad yourself good onyou.
If you can sit with somebody andthen go and golf afterwards and
(06:20):
feel perfectly fine and move onwith your life.
If you were present with thatperson in the moment and you
allowed them to be and feelwithout saying, Hey, smile a
little bit.
It'll make you feel better orsomehow trying to, you know,
that sort of good vibes only
Ben (06:36):
know, that sort of good vibes only.
Hey,
Jim (06:40):
Hey, you're bumming me out.
Why don't you, you know, be abetter.
Ben (06:44):
that, but If
Jim (06:45):
maybe a time and a place for that, but if you're, if
you're capable of sitting there,it doesn't make you a bad person
that you don't leave and notfeel the weight of that.
I think Ben and I are justdescribing our own experience
where you really do feel, feelthat emotion and that doesn't
make someone that way better orworse.
(07:07):
I think it can make it easier.
Possibly to be able to counselthat person when you kind of
feel more what they're goingthrough, but I don't necessarily
think that it's good or bad oneway or another.
I think a lot of folks who areempathetic feel an obligation to
(07:29):
help and.
There's a nuance there because Ithink even like, so I have a
degree in counseling.
Right.
It's interesting to me thatthere was a small section of us
that came to realize that wecouldn't be counselors.
(07:50):
And it wasn't because a lack ofability or desire, it's that
it's just too hard.
For that to be your day to dayjob.
And I think the thing that somepeople struggle with is it's
like, Oh, well, no, I feel thattoo.
Like you just has to get overit.
I don't think they reallyrealize that somebody.
(08:14):
Like myself, when I'm in thatsituation.
I, I take some of that home withme.
and it depends on the contextand how well I know the person
sometimes.
but it does.
And so it's this balance of itmakes me feel good to help.
And I want to help and I want tobe involved, but I have to
(08:37):
consider my own emotional stateand my own conviction to help,
which is why a lot of people arelike, man, you'd be such a good
counselor.
Why don't you go into that?
And my response is always this,this is where I am a good
counselor.
It's when I can choose who I'mcounseling and, and in the
(08:59):
moment when it kind of comes up.
I can be there for them.
I'm here to help them.
And that's my role.
Ben (09:06):
I have a good friend, Joe Joe and I have a pretty equal
understanding of our friendshipand it means a lot to both of
us.
Joe is the kind of friend thatis super busy.
And I, I'm not lately., yeah,I've got a lot of health stuff
(09:28):
and moving into my house andgetting settled, but I don't
feel like I have this crazybusy.
Every moment of my day is full.
I can't do anything else otherthan what's scheduled and Joe's
on the opposite side.
We decided that we were going toschedule time.
So twice a month.
(09:49):
On the first and third Saturdayof the month, it's Joe and Ben
time, and we rotate whose housewe go to.
It creates this space to havethat empathetic, I hear you, I
see you, you're important to metime.
We can show up with even moreempathy and understanding for
(10:10):
each other because we've beenpreparing for it.
Jim (10:13):
Time is important to empathy when, when you have
those moments where you arecommitting to it.
Ben (10:21):
I think time is a boundary and it's just naturally a
boundary.
And that's what I'm mostcognizant of when I think about
boundaries and empathy.
Jim (10:31):
Because if you're blindsided by an emotionally
charged event, it can be moredraining than when you planned
Ben (10:40):
Have you Ever had any experiences where you are
empathizing with somebody thatwas not going through a
difficult time?
Perhaps they were having apretty phenomenal, awesome,
joyful moment.
Are you able to empathize withpeople then just as much as you
are with people who are hurting?
Or do you feel like people whoare hurting somehow you're able
(11:02):
to empathize with more?
Jim (11:08):
I have never been asked that question and that is
fascinating to me.
I can't help but wonder if it iseasier to.
Empathize where you have been orwhere you are currently, because
right now, when someone is goingthrough a time of joy and a time
(11:34):
of plentitude or justeverything's working out for
them, I have to flex my empathymuscles more to meet them in
that place.
If you have for the last 10years been trying desperately to
(11:54):
have children and you are six orseven.
Miscarriages in it can be reallytough to be happy for your
sister who just got married and,the first time that they tried
to have kids, boom, pregnant,carried to term does not mean
(12:15):
that you're not happy for yoursister, right?
You, you can be ecstatic and.
Feel their joy and celebratewith them in that moment, just
like we were talking aboutearlier, where you can have that
sympathy and then be with theperson in that feeling and then
go, go home and maybe not havethat same level of joy.
(12:39):
Presumably the sister would alsoknow this is tough for you and
they might, they might evenappreciate you sharing in that
joy all the more.
And I don't think it robs at allfrom that moment.
Wow.
They can celebrate with me, eventhough that this has been tough
with them.
Having gone through a bit of avalley over the last 10 years
(13:02):
plus, it can sometimes betougher to celebrate with folks
where things have gone great andthey're just in this great place
and they want to celebrate thisthing.
Cause I have to step outside ofmy current experience to meet
them where they they are.
Ben (13:22):
It's interesting as you talk about that, The journey
that I've witnessed some partsof of the last 10 years of your
struggle and it is hard Theempathy that you and I have
developed for each other is verymuch based on the fact that we
know what loss is, we know what,what hurt and struggle is, and
(13:44):
we can empathize on thosethings.
Well, what if one of us makes itout?
And we find ourselves in aposition of thriving instead of
surviving.
And what if the other personisn't there yet?
Can a friendship survive that?
for as accustomed to, pain and,and hurt, and, Struggle that
(14:11):
I've become.
I think because of that, itmakes the experience of the
opposite almost hard to accept.
It's almost as if I prefer to bein the struggle because I, at
least I know the struggle and Ihave people that know the
struggle.
If you look at our culture andpeople our age, maybe I'm
(14:34):
speaking too stereotypically orwith too broad of a brushstroke,
but I do feel like giveneverything that our country, our
world has been through in thelast four years and just given
where the economy has been andinflation And job market and
everything else.
It's been kind of a struggleseason.
(14:56):
And so to have these moments ofcoming out of the struggle.
Just having the ability tochoose this house over other
options that we looked at.
Being able to make financialdecisions that were just never
possible before for as excitingas all of those things are,
(15:17):
sometimes it's hard because Idon't necessarily have a ton of
people in my life that canempathize with what that's like.
Jim (15:27):
I wonder how much of that is the socioeconomic barriers
versus an empathy for somebodygoing through a tough time or
not, because I think they're twovery different things.
There are some people who justreally aren't capable of
understanding that there are,disparity between.
(15:49):
Socio economic levels, and it'seither, Hey, I live at this
level and you almostsubconsciously dismiss folks who
can't keep up with you.
And I honestly, I'm again, don'tthink there's anything wrong
with that.
If you like to golf everyweekend, you're going to become
(16:11):
friends with people who haveenough money and time, free time
to go golf.
Nothing wrong with that.
That, that naturally happens.
I think where it gets wrong canbe when you're like, well, I
earned this.
And if other people worked ashard as I do, then, or these
people aren't as good as me,therefore, but.
(16:31):
Those are two very differentthings on the empathy scale.
I think we are all, we tend tobe attracted to people who are
in a similar space, right?
There are people though, who canflex on either end comfortably
where I'm in a tough spot, but.
I love hanging out with peoplethat are happy because they make
me feel better and I can sharethat joy of empathy with them.
(16:55):
And Hey, maybe they'll eveninvite me out on their boat that
I could never afford.
And they're, they're happy to bein that space and vice versa.
There are people who are happythat when you hang out with
somebody who's not.
It can be tough because it mightfeel draining, but these joyous
people are happy to be a part oftheir lives and happy to be able
(17:19):
to sit and share with them.
And it charges them to be withthose people.
But there are also folks, andI'll, I'll raise my hand and say
that I struggle with thissometimes too, that it is tough
for me to be around somebody whohasn't been through.
The weeds which is, I absolutelythink is a point that I need to
(17:43):
work on and try to flex to thatspot.
Like you said, to have theempathy of joy.
Ben (17:49):
Another question that comes to mind when I think about
empathy is, do you think that itis possible for somebody to be
such an empath that they noticea struggle or a, uh, burden or a
trouble spot in somebody else'slife, this empath notices it
(18:11):
even before that person sees itfor themselves.
Do you think that's apossibility?
Jim (18:19):
I absolutely feel that that is possible.
And that is the.
The empaths dilemma, right, Ihad a lot of anxiety where I
gained a lot of weight.
My blood pressure was going upreally high to the point of like
just shy of needing to go onmedication.
And I told my wife, I'm like, Iwant to help people.
(18:42):
But I am realizing, at least fornow, that I need to do a better
job of taking care of
Ben (18:49):
and
Jim (18:52):
not taking on some of the work.
Other people's problems.
If you're a relative or someonethat I'm talking to that, that
I'm trying to help you along theway, I don't want you to hear,
Oh, I better not tell Jim aboutmy problems.
That's my responsibility, notyours, right?
I need to be able to know whatmy boundaries are because there
are times when it can be lifegiving.
(19:14):
to help other people, I justneed to do a better job of
reading my own feelings on that.
And that's hard to explain whenyou're not an empath, that there
are times when it can bedraining to help somebody.
And then there are times thatyou're like, I get to sit with
this person and help them.
And I think that's the gift ofempathy.
Ben (19:35):
Well, I'm going to change the focus a little bit and shift
it and put the spotlight on myfavorite person, me.
Jim (19:43):
yes,
Ben (19:44):
It's all about me, at least for right now, in those moments
where I have spotted in somebodyelse, things that they were not
necessarily aware of.
The truth is.
It's easier for me to see thosein other people than it is to
see in my own life.
And anytime that I have thatsense of, man, that he's really
(20:09):
going through it right now, hehas no idea.
It's usually a pretty goodindicator that I do need to put
the spotlight on my own lifeand, and, and stop for a second
and think, why is it that I'm sodrawn and aware of this person's
struggle is it possibly becauseI'm too scared or I feel ill
(20:33):
equipped or I feel like I can'thandle my own load.
So now I need to go out and findsomebody else's.
I think that's the danger ofempathy too, is it can become an
escape.
And I only say that becausethat's my experience and It's
been critical for me to balancethose two of being able to look
(20:57):
at somebody and see that they'restruggling and meet them where
they're at in that struggle,while still also tending to my
own self and tending to thethings in my own life that are
difficult and hard.
And anytime that somebodyexpresses empathy to me, it just
hits like a ton of bricks.
(21:18):
Like even as you wereintroducing the topic of the
show and talking about theempathy you feel for me walking
through the medical stuff.
And it was just like, Oh yeah,I'm kind of going through a lot
with this.
And though it wasn't top of mindfor me, Jim's here in this room
with me and he knows about itand he's feeling it.
(21:41):
It was just like this, hmm, wow,that felt really good.
So, that's the danger of empathyfor me.
Allowing myself to be so overlyempathetic to others that I lose
sight of my own self in theprocess.
Jim (21:59):
of that old analogy on the airplane that you got to put
your own oxygen mask on before.
We've used that analogy before.
Only you were eating peanuts andwell, while everybody else was
passing out.
Ben (22:10):
Well, here's the thing though, I mean, just ask my
wife.
I am, I am, 100 percent all ornothing.
So it is.
I'm either the one that is justenjoying the moment, eating
peanuts when I should be puttingon my mask or, you know, helping
somebody around me.
Or I'm falling apart because I'mnot taking care of myself.
(22:32):
I need to find a balance inthat.
Jim (22:35):
When it comes to your own dealing with yourself and your
emotions, now you're the one whoshould be just putting on your
own mask when you're goingaround trying to put on everyone
else's mask and you don't evensee that they already have a
(22:55):
mask on and you're literally theonly one left who doesn't have a
mask and you're actually passedout or almost passed out on the
floor, actively fighting peoplefrom putting an oxygen mask on.
On you, you don't want to accepthelp from other people.
There are moments where maybeyou don't want to be the one to
do the thing.
Ben (23:16):
I don't want to be the one that's always in need.
That's it right there.
Like I'm tired of being Thefragile one for lack of a better
term.
Jim (23:28):
Do you ever want to be the one in need though?
Ben (23:32):
No,
Jim (23:32):
don't want people to help you.
Ben (23:35):
what are we in therapy or something?
I mean, I like it when peoplehelp but I don't I guess going
back to your Example of just theyears long struggle that you've
been on at some point.
You're just like, it'd be niceto have some uphill, smooth
(23:57):
sailing.
Jim (23:57):
yeah.
Ben (23:58):
I'm at the point where it's like, it would just be nice to
not have so many things goingwrong,
Jim (24:05):
Right.
Ben (24:06):
to not need people to be so responsive.
I mean, I'm so glad that I havepeople in my life who care, but
it's like.
Okay, I'm tired of constantlyhaving something that requires
the love and care and attentionof other people.
Jim (24:26):
You joke about it being a therapy session, but I asked
because I'm curious, just myinsight when it comes to empathy
and how empaths deal with that.
Cause you're not wrong.
I am absolutely in that spotwhere I'm sick of being the one
who needs help or, you know,I'm, It's this weird dichotomy
because in some ways I feel likeI'm always the one who has to
(24:48):
like step in and be the one tohelp and take charge.
But I also feel like, man, am Itired of this long journey?
I don't want to always be theone.
So sometimes you'll be criticalof me, for lack of a better
term, when I'll, when I saysomething like, I'm sorry.
Like, I don't mean to be aburden to you or whatever.
You're like, Jim, stop, stopsaying that.
(25:08):
Like, it's not a burden.
That's what friends do.
That's what normal people do.
You're talking at the top ofthis episode about how You have
more time now and yeah, you havethese medical things, but you're
dealing with them.
And for the most part, thingsare on the up and up.
Now you don't want to askanything of anybody cause you
(25:29):
sort of feel like you had yourturn.
You struggle when other peoplefeel something for you.
Is that the pathological side ofyour empathy that is telling
you, I can help other people,but I need to take care of my
own stuff myself.
Ben (25:47):
Hmm,, can see where you're coming from on that.
I'm very careful who I let inand then once the people are in
You I almost feel like, allright, you're overstaying your
welcome.
Move along.
Like you felt my pain.
Great.
I'm glad you did.
I'm grateful for you, but justgo on.
(26:07):
I got this.
And it's just, again, thispathological side of me as an
empath wanting it always to beabout me giving it to somebody
else.
And not having the grace ormaybe even humility to accept it
for myself.
Jim (26:29):
That's interesting that you use that word humility.
I do think that that's somethingthat we always have to be wary
about is my, uh, Is myunwillingness to accept help
just a part of my human naturewhere I struggle to accept it
because I don't want to be theone that needs help?
(26:50):
Or is it a pride thing where ifI accept help, that is admitting
that there's something wrongwith me in the
Ben (26:58):
help, that
Jim (27:01):
one of the questions that That I was curious about is when
is it appropriate and whenshould you?
Step into those moments whereYou feel like there is a
compelling reason why somebodyneeds to say something and you
are concerned that if you don'tsay anything, that nothing is
(27:24):
going to be said when do you seeand realize this is an important
thing that needs to bediscussed, but I need to protect
myself.
Where do you find that balancewhen you're feeling that empathy
nerve twitch?
How do you decide when to act onthat?
And when you just sort of say,you know what?
(27:46):
It's not, this is not my place.
Ben (27:49):
I'll be honest, my natural tendency and what I typically do
is just don't say anything.
I, I don't go and make a, a bigscene.
I'm not the one that says whatneeds to be said.
Growing up, I often did sensethat things were amiss or that
(28:11):
there was something that neededto be said, But, I just didn't
feel like that was my role, or Ijust kind of let myself off the
hook and didn't say anything.
Usually, things have to getreally, really bad.
really out of hand in order forme to say something.
But then when I think about itfrom the context of my chosen
(28:34):
family or my family now, thatbeing my wife and kids, I feel
like I am in this role of being,the word that comes to mind is
the dadvocate.
Not just an advocate, not justdad, but both.
I feel, a real need to advocatefor my kids and for my family.
And so if it's somethinginvolving one of my family or
(28:56):
something that impacts all ofus, then yeah, I absolutely do
feel that.
urge to be the one that sayssomething that maybe everybody
else is thinking.
So it really, it's contextual.
Jim (29:11):
So when you talk about that, I can't help but think.
Is it like a reactivity versusproactivity sort of thing where
when you talk about yourempathy, it seems like you're
often reacting to, like yousaid, only when it gets really
out of hand, do you step intothat now in your own family?
It sort of has that dadvocaterole where maybe that's where
(29:35):
you're more proactive when itcomes to empathy.
Okay.
This is my immediate family.
This is my tribe.
These are my people.
I am giving them this empathycause I want to help shape and
mold and protect them.
But you're saying thatproactivity doesn't really
bubble out to anybody else.
Ben (29:57):
From a family context.
It does to a certain degree withmy parents, absolutely, like as
they get older and as we getolder just seeing some of the
medical or otherwise strugglesthat they face, it's that
proactivity.
There may come a time where weneed to intervene for my
parents.
But when I look at it from theperspective of my brothers, or
(30:22):
things happening on that level,I'm very reactive in that
context.
Jim (30:28):
If you are one of those empathetic people that struggles
to separate your own emotionsfrom other people, but you still
want to help.
And you're also trying tobalance that without being sort
of the busybody insertingyourself into other people's
business where you don't reallybelong.
How do you balance all thatstuff and what words of wisdom
(30:50):
does Ben pass on to somebody inthat position?
Ben (30:54):
The words of wisdom that I have are, be a laundry fairy.
Jim (31:00):
a laundry
Ben (31:01):
Not the answer you were thinking of.
Jim (31:03):
Pretty sure I would have never thought that those words
would come out of your mouth.
Ben (31:08):
My wife and I when we were going through our hardest times
as a family.
There was a woman in our churchwho had been through difficult
times in her past as well.
In fact, she had lost herhusband and that is obviously
very traumatic.
And this woman could have shownup in so many different ways.
(31:30):
But the way that she chose toshow up was so simple, but also
so deeply meaningful andimpactful.
It was doing our dirty laundry.
She was like, give me all ofyour laundry.
I don't care how much of itthere is.
I don't care how gross it is.
Just give it to me.
I will take all of it.
(31:51):
All of it and I will do yourlaundry and she did several
times.
That was how she showed up andit was so powerful for us.
And so now when we.
see other people struggling wejust offered to do their laundry
and every time that we've donethat it has meant so much for
(32:16):
the other person.
If you are an empath and youstruggle with the balance
between taking care of yourselftaking care of others How do I
show up for another person?
But still show up for me maybeyou could be somebody's laundry
fairy if laundry's not yourthing And it would be like
pulling teeth to get you to dothat bring them a meal.
(32:39):
Look for those simple thingsthat Can just change that entire
perspective of somebody that youdecide to help.
Maybe you don't have to own allof the problems of the other
person that you're empathizingwith.
Perhaps you don't even have tocarry the bag very long.
(33:00):
Maybe, Empathy can look like Iknow that you've probably got a
lot of laundry piling up I'dlike to take care of that for
you or man.
This has been a really hardseason You guys probably haven't
even been able to to cook orthink about food Let me take
care of that for you.
(33:20):
When you enter those thosemoments of need and meet a very
tangible need, it can be soimpactful.
That's the kind of empathy thatI'm trying to live into.
we were talking about theairplane analogy and the masks.
Another one that comes to mindis, let's say you are, you're
(33:42):
all boarding, an airplane andyou notice somebody has maybe
just several carry on pieces ofluggage and they're struggling
to get them all on the plane.
So you decide to help them.
Well, then you get to your seatand everybody's stowing away
their bags, but you're clutchingthis person's bag as you're
(34:02):
sitting in your seat.
And this person is across theplane from you kind of looking
at you like, What are you doingover there?
Why do you have my bag?
That's kind of weird.
And I think sometimes asempaths, it's easy to hold on to
other people's burdens for toolong.
And sometimes we just need toput them down and that's okay.
(34:22):
it's just all about that balanceof letting go and holding on.
Jim (34:32):
When you were talking about being a laundry fairy or helping
with all these different things,the key parts there is that you
are the one coming up with theideas.
I'm going to bring you a meal.
What day would be best?
Can I bring it this Friday?
Because when you say, Hey, I'mhere to help.
If you need anything
Ben (34:51):
Right.
you
Jim (34:52):
forget it.
You might as well have not saidanything that that doesn't mean
anything.
Ben (34:55):
That's that's where sympathy becomes empathy right
there in that moment
Jim (35:00):
yes.
Step into people's lives.
Being able to help each otherrather than staying in our own
sort of tunnel vision, and beingokay in that moment.
I think that's where empathylives and thrives.
That's how we can help eachother.
Ben (35:15):
Good stuff
Jim (35:17):
Thanks so much for listening today.
Hopefully you got some goodnuggets out of this episode.
Empathy and pride, humility, allthat kind of stuff has this deep
interplay into into how we dothis, but I think we all have a
capacity to be able to step ineach other's lives and, and help
one another.
Ben (35:36):
Thanks for listening to Real Men Hug.
We'll see you next time.
Real Men Hug, and they hugbecause they empathize.
Jim (35:48):
Real men hug, but they also accept hugs from other people
when they're feeling down
Ben (35:56):
Yes, indeed.
Jim (35:59):
Let's get some lunch.
Ben (36:01):
Let's do it
Jim (36:02):
Cool.
Welcome to real men hug a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Jim
Ben (00:06):
And I'm Ben.
Jim (00:08):
Welcome to the show.
Welcome to the
Ben (00:12):
to the show.
I'm a
Jim (00:17):
was that?
Ben (00:19):
My brain enjoys the slowness of life.
Jim (00:24):
not.
I would say you and me both, butthat'd be a lie.
I, my brain is already at theend of the episode, just
chilling out.
I'm starting to edit
Ben (00:33):
Nice.
Just live in the moment,
Jim (00:36):
live in the
Ben (00:38):
Be here.
Jim (00:39):
is what my kid is always telling me that you're supposed
to just have fun.
Stop taking everything soseriously.
Ben (00:47):
Wow.
Jim (00:48):
sometimes when I'm doing like leisure activities.
Oh my gosh.
I was painting.
I've talked on the show abouthow I like paint miniatures.
And my kid was like, you.
You just have to find somethingto paint that's going to be fun.
Don't paint something that youthink it's going to be, you
know, you have to use it forthis campaign or whatever.
Just paint for fun.
(01:08):
And so I did.
I painted a little bug bear witha pumpkin for a head and I had a
blast doing that.
So he's a wise little kid.
Ben (01:17):
That he is, man.
Jim (01:19):
Talking about empathy today,
Ben (01:22):
Empathy.
Jim (01:23):
really are like in slow process mode today.
Aren't you?
I would like to talk aboutempathy, but first I'm going to
take a nap.
Ben (01:31):
Good night.
I'll be right back in 30minutes.
Jim (01:34):
Gunna chew on some molasses.
Maybe you're just drained fromall the empathy that you've had
to use.
Ben (01:42):
well be.
Jim (01:43):
empathy is used up.
I walked through the door andjust instantly drained you.
You're like, Oh man,
Ben (01:49):
Oh,
Jim (01:50):
Exactly.
It is though.
It takes a toll.
Ben (01:53):
before we jump into empathy, let's just unbox that
word.
What does empathy mean to you,Jim?
Jim (02:02):
I, I'm not here interested in the Miriam Webster dictionary
version of it.
And for me, the differencebetween sympathy and empathy is
sympathy is something you feelfor somebody.
I am sad that Ben has healthproblems.
So anyway.
And I go and I go on about myday.
(02:23):
That to me is, is sympathy.
Empathy is deeper than that, Iguess, is what I would say.
Empathy is where I grieve for myfriend who has this medical
problem.
I weep for my friend who hasthis medical problem.
And not only is it an, amplitudething, I guess, for lack of a
(02:46):
better word, but it's, It's thatit is now a part of me as well
because I care about Ben.
I feel what he feels and it'snot to say that I feel the same
medical problems, but I feel theweight and burden of this hard
thing that he's going through asif it were my own burden.
(03:08):
And.
The tough part is for the trueempath, you care about
everybody,
Ben (03:16):
Absolutely.
Jim (03:17):
even people that you don't like, and I would say it may be
getting to a Seek counselinglevel if, if you've gotten to
the point where even celebritiesor, you know, like notorious
people, like if you feel upsetfor what, you know, a
(03:38):
presidential candidate is goingthrough, then find, find a way
to maybe take a step back fromthat.
But I know for me, it gets tothe point where even if it's
somebody, say a coworker that Idon't necessarily.
Talk to, or do things with in apast job, I would still feel bad
(04:00):
for something that they weregoing through and take a little
bit of that weight with me andbring that home with me.
So to me, that's what it is.
It's empathy is it's not justfeeling sad for somebody, but
it's kind of like sittingalongside with them and sharing
that burden, whether you want toor not, it just kind of hits
you.
Ben (04:18):
you.
Yeah, definitely.
I would agree.
My definition of empathy isquite similar.
For me, when I think of empathy,just the image of sitting next
to somebody, putting my armaround them and conveying this,
I'm here.
(04:39):
I feel what you feel.
I know this is hard.
I don't have all the answers foryou, but I have my presence to
offer you and By giving you mypresence, I'm conveying to you
that I sense the weight of thesituation that you are in.
(04:59):
You feel it leaving your body.
I'm reminded of the story in theBible of how the woman touched
Jesus's garment.
And if you, want an example ofempathy, I think you've got it
right there.
He, in this huge crowd ofpeople.
He realizes that somebodytouched his garment, the hem of
(05:22):
his garment.
And I feel like that's whatempathy feels like in the
moment.
You just know when it's engaged.
It's just this zap of, Oh, yep.
I'm feeling this other person'sstuff.
And this is heavy.
Jim (05:38):
and I think it's an important distinction to make
that, just because you don'tfeel strongly doesn't mean that
you aren't capable of empathy.
Or if you find yourself.
More drawn to that word,sympathy.
Someone can still be there forsomebody else without
(05:59):
necessarily taking on thatweight, your capacity to, to
give of yourself and be in themoment with somebody else, call
it empathy, call it sympathy,call it what you will, just
because you're not, you know,going home.
Feeling sad yourself good onyou.
If you can sit with somebody andthen go and golf afterwards and
(06:20):
feel perfectly fine and move onwith your life.
If you were present with thatperson in the moment and you
allowed them to be and feelwithout saying, Hey, smile a
little bit.
It'll make you feel better orsomehow trying to, you know,
that sort of good vibes only
Ben (06:36):
know, that sort of good vibes only.
Hey,
Jim (06:40):
Hey, you're bumming me out.
Why don't you, you know, be abetter.
Ben (06:44):
that, but If
Jim (06:45):
maybe a time and a place for that, but if you're, if
you're capable of sitting there,it doesn't make you a bad person
that you don't leave and notfeel the weight of that.
I think Ben and I are justdescribing our own experience
where you really do feel, feelthat emotion and that doesn't
make someone that way better orworse.
(07:07):
I think it can make it easier.
Possibly to be able to counselthat person when you kind of
feel more what they're goingthrough, but I don't necessarily
think that it's good or bad oneway or another.
I think a lot of folks who areempathetic feel an obligation to
(07:29):
help and.
There's a nuance there because Ithink even like, so I have a
degree in counseling.
Right.
It's interesting to me thatthere was a small section of us
that came to realize that wecouldn't be counselors.
(07:50):
And it wasn't because a lack ofability or desire, it's that
it's just too hard.
For that to be your day to dayjob.
And I think the thing that somepeople struggle with is it's
like, Oh, well, no, I feel thattoo.
Like you just has to get overit.
I don't think they reallyrealize that somebody.
(08:14):
Like myself, when I'm in thatsituation.
I, I take some of that home withme.
and it depends on the contextand how well I know the person
sometimes.
but it does.
And so it's this balance of itmakes me feel good to help.
And I want to help and I want tobe involved, but I have to
(08:37):
consider my own emotional stateand my own conviction to help,
which is why a lot of people arelike, man, you'd be such a good
counselor.
Why don't you go into that?
And my response is always this,this is where I am a good
counselor.
It's when I can choose who I'mcounseling and, and in the
(08:59):
moment when it kind of comes up.
I can be there for them.
I'm here to help them.
And that's my role.
Ben (09:06):
I have a good friend, Joe Joe and I have a pretty equal
understanding of our friendshipand it means a lot to both of
us.
Joe is the kind of friend thatis super busy.
And I, I'm not lately., yeah,I've got a lot of health stuff
(09:28):
and moving into my house andgetting settled, but I don't
feel like I have this crazybusy.
Every moment of my day is full.
I can't do anything else otherthan what's scheduled and Joe's
on the opposite side.
We decided that we were going toschedule time.
So twice a month.
(09:49):
On the first and third Saturdayof the month, it's Joe and Ben
time, and we rotate whose housewe go to.
It creates this space to havethat empathetic, I hear you, I
see you, you're important to metime.
We can show up with even moreempathy and understanding for
(10:10):
each other because we've beenpreparing for it.
Jim (10:13):
Time is important to empathy when, when you have
those moments where you arecommitting to it.
Ben (10:21):
I think time is a boundary and it's just naturally a
boundary.
And that's what I'm mostcognizant of when I think about
boundaries and empathy.
Jim (10:31):
Because if you're blindsided by an emotionally
charged event, it can be moredraining than when you planned
Ben (10:40):
Have you Ever had any experiences where you are
empathizing with somebody thatwas not going through a
difficult time?
Perhaps they were having apretty phenomenal, awesome,
joyful moment.
Are you able to empathize withpeople then just as much as you
are with people who are hurting?
Or do you feel like people whoare hurting somehow you're able
(11:02):
to empathize with more?
Jim (11:08):
I have never been asked that question and that is
fascinating to me.
I can't help but wonder if it iseasier to.
Empathize where you have been orwhere you are currently, because
right now, when someone is goingthrough a time of joy and a time
(11:34):
of plentitude or justeverything's working out for
them, I have to flex my empathymuscles more to meet them in
that place.
If you have for the last 10years been trying desperately to
(11:54):
have children and you are six orseven.
Miscarriages in it can be reallytough to be happy for your
sister who just got married and,the first time that they tried
to have kids, boom, pregnant,carried to term does not mean
(12:15):
that you're not happy for yoursister, right?
You, you can be ecstatic and.
Feel their joy and celebratewith them in that moment, just
like we were talking aboutearlier, where you can have that
sympathy and then be with theperson in that feeling and then
go, go home and maybe not havethat same level of joy.
(12:39):
Presumably the sister would alsoknow this is tough for you and
they might, they might evenappreciate you sharing in that
joy all the more.
And I don't think it robs at allfrom that moment.
Wow.
They can celebrate with me, eventhough that this has been tough
with them.
Having gone through a bit of avalley over the last 10 years
(13:02):
plus, it can sometimes betougher to celebrate with folks
where things have gone great andthey're just in this great place
and they want to celebrate thisthing.
Cause I have to step outside ofmy current experience to meet
them where they they are.
Ben (13:22):
It's interesting as you talk about that, The journey
that I've witnessed some partsof of the last 10 years of your
struggle and it is hard Theempathy that you and I have
developed for each other is verymuch based on the fact that we
know what loss is, we know what,what hurt and struggle is, and
(13:44):
we can empathize on thosethings.
Well, what if one of us makes itout?
And we find ourselves in aposition of thriving instead of
surviving.
And what if the other personisn't there yet?
Can a friendship survive that?
for as accustomed to, pain and,and hurt, and, Struggle that
(14:11):
I've become.
I think because of that, itmakes the experience of the
opposite almost hard to accept.
It's almost as if I prefer to bein the struggle because I, at
least I know the struggle and Ihave people that know the
struggle.
If you look at our culture andpeople our age, maybe I'm
(14:34):
speaking too stereotypically orwith too broad of a brushstroke,
but I do feel like giveneverything that our country, our
world has been through in thelast four years and just given
where the economy has been andinflation And job market and
everything else.
It's been kind of a struggleseason.
(14:56):
And so to have these moments ofcoming out of the struggle.
Just having the ability tochoose this house over other
options that we looked at.
Being able to make financialdecisions that were just never
possible before for as excitingas all of those things are,
(15:17):
sometimes it's hard because Idon't necessarily have a ton of
people in my life that canempathize with what that's like.
Jim (15:27):
I wonder how much of that is the socioeconomic barriers
versus an empathy for somebodygoing through a tough time or
not, because I think they're twovery different things.
There are some people who justreally aren't capable of
understanding that there are,disparity between.
(15:49):
Socio economic levels, and it'seither, Hey, I live at this
level and you almostsubconsciously dismiss folks who
can't keep up with you.
And I honestly, I'm again, don'tthink there's anything wrong
with that.
If you like to golf everyweekend, you're going to become
(16:11):
friends with people who haveenough money and time, free time
to go golf.
Nothing wrong with that.
That, that naturally happens.
I think where it gets wrong canbe when you're like, well, I
earned this.
And if other people worked ashard as I do, then, or these
people aren't as good as me,therefore, but.
(16:31):
Those are two very differentthings on the empathy scale.
I think we are all, we tend tobe attracted to people who are
in a similar space, right?
There are people though, who canflex on either end comfortably
where I'm in a tough spot, but.
I love hanging out with peoplethat are happy because they make
me feel better and I can sharethat joy of empathy with them.
(16:55):
And Hey, maybe they'll eveninvite me out on their boat that
I could never afford.
And they're, they're happy to bein that space and vice versa.
There are people who are happythat when you hang out with
somebody who's not.
It can be tough because it mightfeel draining, but these joyous
people are happy to be a part oftheir lives and happy to be able
(17:19):
to sit and share with them.
And it charges them to be withthose people.
But there are also folks, andI'll, I'll raise my hand and say
that I struggle with thissometimes too, that it is tough
for me to be around somebody whohasn't been through.
The weeds which is, I absolutelythink is a point that I need to
(17:43):
work on and try to flex to thatspot.
Like you said, to have theempathy of joy.
Ben (17:49):
Another question that comes to mind when I think about
empathy is, do you think that itis possible for somebody to be
such an empath that they noticea struggle or a, uh, burden or a
trouble spot in somebody else'slife, this empath notices it
(18:11):
even before that person sees itfor themselves.
Do you think that's apossibility?
Jim (18:19):
I absolutely feel that that is possible.
And that is the.
The empaths dilemma, right, Ihad a lot of anxiety where I
gained a lot of weight.
My blood pressure was going upreally high to the point of like
just shy of needing to go onmedication.
And I told my wife, I'm like, Iwant to help people.
(18:42):
But I am realizing, at least fornow, that I need to do a better
job of taking care of
Ben (18:49):
and
Jim (18:52):
not taking on some of the work.
Other people's problems.
If you're a relative or someonethat I'm talking to that, that
I'm trying to help you along theway, I don't want you to hear,
Oh, I better not tell Jim aboutmy problems.
That's my responsibility, notyours, right?
I need to be able to know whatmy boundaries are because there
are times when it can be lifegiving.
(19:14):
to help other people, I justneed to do a better job of
reading my own feelings on that.
And that's hard to explain whenyou're not an empath, that there
are times when it can bedraining to help somebody.
And then there are times thatyou're like, I get to sit with
this person and help them.
And I think that's the gift ofempathy.
Ben (19:35):
Well, I'm going to change the focus a little bit and shift
it and put the spotlight on myfavorite person, me.
Jim (19:43):
yes,
Ben (19:44):
It's all about me, at least for right now, in those moments
where I have spotted in somebodyelse, things that they were not
necessarily aware of.
The truth is.
It's easier for me to see thosein other people than it is to
see in my own life.
And anytime that I have thatsense of, man, that he's really
(20:09):
going through it right now, hehas no idea.
It's usually a pretty goodindicator that I do need to put
the spotlight on my own lifeand, and, and stop for a second
and think, why is it that I'm sodrawn and aware of this person's
struggle is it possibly becauseI'm too scared or I feel ill
(20:33):
equipped or I feel like I can'thandle my own load.
So now I need to go out and findsomebody else's.
I think that's the danger ofempathy too, is it can become an
escape.
And I only say that becausethat's my experience and It's
been critical for me to balancethose two of being able to look
(20:57):
at somebody and see that they'restruggling and meet them where
they're at in that struggle,while still also tending to my
own self and tending to thethings in my own life that are
difficult and hard.
And anytime that somebodyexpresses empathy to me, it just
hits like a ton of bricks.
(21:18):
Like even as you wereintroducing the topic of the
show and talking about theempathy you feel for me walking
through the medical stuff.
And it was just like, Oh yeah,I'm kind of going through a lot
with this.
And though it wasn't top of mindfor me, Jim's here in this room
with me and he knows about itand he's feeling it.
(21:41):
It was just like this, hmm, wow,that felt really good.
So, that's the danger of empathyfor me.
Allowing myself to be so overlyempathetic to others that I lose
sight of my own self in theprocess.
Jim (21:59):
of that old analogy on the airplane that you got to put
your own oxygen mask on before.
We've used that analogy before.
Only you were eating peanuts andwell, while everybody else was
passing out.
Ben (22:10):
Well, here's the thing though, I mean, just ask my
wife.
I am, I am, 100 percent all ornothing.
So it is.
I'm either the one that is justenjoying the moment, eating
peanuts when I should be puttingon my mask or, you know, helping
somebody around me.
Or I'm falling apart because I'mnot taking care of myself.
(22:32):
I need to find a balance inthat.
Jim (22:35):
When it comes to your own dealing with yourself and your
emotions, now you're the one whoshould be just putting on your
own mask when you're goingaround trying to put on everyone
else's mask and you don't evensee that they already have a
(22:55):
mask on and you're literally theonly one left who doesn't have a
mask and you're actually passedout or almost passed out on the
floor, actively fighting peoplefrom putting an oxygen mask on.
On you, you don't want to accepthelp from other people.
There are moments where maybeyou don't want to be the one to
do the thing.
Ben (23:16):
I don't want to be the one that's always in need.
That's it right there.
Like I'm tired of being Thefragile one for lack of a better
term.
Jim (23:28):
Do you ever want to be the one in need though?
Ben (23:32):
No,
Jim (23:32):
don't want people to help you.
Ben (23:35):
what are we in therapy or something?
I mean, I like it when peoplehelp but I don't I guess going
back to your Example of just theyears long struggle that you've
been on at some point.
You're just like, it'd be niceto have some uphill, smooth
(23:57):
sailing.
Jim (23:57):
yeah.
Ben (23:58):
I'm at the point where it's like, it would just be nice to
not have so many things goingwrong,
Jim (24:05):
Right.
Ben (24:06):
to not need people to be so responsive.
I mean, I'm so glad that I havepeople in my life who care, but
it's like.
Okay, I'm tired of constantlyhaving something that requires
the love and care and attentionof other people.
Jim (24:26):
You joke about it being a therapy session, but I asked
because I'm curious, just myinsight when it comes to empathy
and how empaths deal with that.
Cause you're not wrong.
I am absolutely in that spotwhere I'm sick of being the one
who needs help or, you know,I'm, It's this weird dichotomy
because in some ways I feel likeI'm always the one who has to
(24:48):
like step in and be the one tohelp and take charge.
But I also feel like, man, am Itired of this long journey?
I don't want to always be theone.
So sometimes you'll be criticalof me, for lack of a better
term, when I'll, when I saysomething like, I'm sorry.
Like, I don't mean to be aburden to you or whatever.
You're like, Jim, stop, stopsaying that.
(25:08):
Like, it's not a burden.
That's what friends do.
That's what normal people do.
You're talking at the top ofthis episode about how You have
more time now and yeah, you havethese medical things, but you're
dealing with them.
And for the most part, thingsare on the up and up.
Now you don't want to askanything of anybody cause you
(25:29):
sort of feel like you had yourturn.
You struggle when other peoplefeel something for you.
Is that the pathological side ofyour empathy that is telling
you, I can help other people,but I need to take care of my
own stuff myself.
Ben (25:47):
Hmm,, can see where you're coming from on that.
I'm very careful who I let inand then once the people are in
You I almost feel like, allright, you're overstaying your
welcome.
Move along.
Like you felt my pain.
Great.
I'm glad you did.
I'm grateful for you, but justgo on.
(26:07):
I got this.
And it's just, again, thispathological side of me as an
empath wanting it always to beabout me giving it to somebody
else.
And not having the grace ormaybe even humility to accept it
for myself.
Jim (26:29):
That's interesting that you use that word humility.
I do think that that's somethingthat we always have to be wary
about is my, uh, Is myunwillingness to accept help
just a part of my human naturewhere I struggle to accept it
because I don't want to be theone that needs help?
(26:50):
Or is it a pride thing where ifI accept help, that is admitting
that there's something wrongwith me in the
Ben (26:58):
help, that
Jim (27:01):
one of the questions that That I was curious about is when
is it appropriate and whenshould you?
Step into those moments whereYou feel like there is a
compelling reason why somebodyneeds to say something and you
are concerned that if you don'tsay anything, that nothing is
(27:24):
going to be said when do you seeand realize this is an important
thing that needs to bediscussed, but I need to protect
myself.
Where do you find that balancewhen you're feeling that empathy
nerve twitch?
How do you decide when to act onthat?
And when you just sort of say,you know what?
(27:46):
It's not, this is not my place.
Ben (27:49):
I'll be honest, my natural tendency and what I typically do
is just don't say anything.
I, I don't go and make a, a bigscene.
I'm not the one that says whatneeds to be said.
Growing up, I often did sensethat things were amiss or that
(28:11):
there was something that neededto be said, But, I just didn't
feel like that was my role, or Ijust kind of let myself off the
hook and didn't say anything.
Usually, things have to getreally, really bad.
really out of hand in order forme to say something.
But then when I think about itfrom the context of my chosen
(28:34):
family or my family now, thatbeing my wife and kids, I feel
like I am in this role of being,the word that comes to mind is
the dadvocate.
Not just an advocate, not justdad, but both.
I feel, a real need to advocatefor my kids and for my family.
And so if it's somethinginvolving one of my family or
(28:56):
something that impacts all ofus, then yeah, I absolutely do
feel that.
urge to be the one that sayssomething that maybe everybody
else is thinking.
So it really, it's contextual.
Jim (29:11):
So when you talk about that, I can't help but think.
Is it like a reactivity versusproactivity sort of thing where
when you talk about yourempathy, it seems like you're
often reacting to, like yousaid, only when it gets really
out of hand, do you step intothat now in your own family?
It sort of has that dadvocaterole where maybe that's where
(29:35):
you're more proactive when itcomes to empathy.
Okay.
This is my immediate family.
This is my tribe.
These are my people.
I am giving them this empathycause I want to help shape and
mold and protect them.
But you're saying thatproactivity doesn't really
bubble out to anybody else.
Ben (29:57):
From a family context.
It does to a certain degree withmy parents, absolutely, like as
they get older and as we getolder just seeing some of the
medical or otherwise strugglesthat they face, it's that
proactivity.
There may come a time where weneed to intervene for my
parents.
But when I look at it from theperspective of my brothers, or
(30:22):
things happening on that level,I'm very reactive in that
context.
Jim (30:28):
If you are one of those empathetic people that struggles
to separate your own emotionsfrom other people, but you still
want to help.
And you're also trying tobalance that without being sort
of the busybody insertingyourself into other people's
business where you don't reallybelong.
How do you balance all thatstuff and what words of wisdom
(30:50):
does Ben pass on to somebody inthat position?
Ben (30:54):
The words of wisdom that I have are, be a laundry fairy.
Jim (31:00):
a laundry
Ben (31:01):
Not the answer you were thinking of.
Jim (31:03):
Pretty sure I would have never thought that those words
would come out of your mouth.
Ben (31:08):
My wife and I when we were going through our hardest times
as a family.
There was a woman in our churchwho had been through difficult
times in her past as well.
In fact, she had lost herhusband and that is obviously
very traumatic.
And this woman could have shownup in so many different ways.
(31:30):
But the way that she chose toshow up was so simple, but also
so deeply meaningful andimpactful.
It was doing our dirty laundry.
She was like, give me all ofyour laundry.
I don't care how much of itthere is.
I don't care how gross it is.
Just give it to me.
I will take all of it.
(31:51):
All of it and I will do yourlaundry and she did several
times.
That was how she showed up andit was so powerful for us.
And so now when we.
see other people struggling wejust offered to do their laundry
and every time that we've donethat it has meant so much for
(32:16):
the other person.
If you are an empath and youstruggle with the balance
between taking care of yourselftaking care of others How do I
show up for another person?
But still show up for me maybeyou could be somebody's laundry
fairy if laundry's not yourthing And it would be like
pulling teeth to get you to dothat bring them a meal.
(32:39):
Look for those simple thingsthat Can just change that entire
perspective of somebody that youdecide to help.
Maybe you don't have to own allof the problems of the other
person that you're empathizingwith.
Perhaps you don't even have tocarry the bag very long.
(33:00):
Maybe, Empathy can look like Iknow that you've probably got a
lot of laundry piling up I'dlike to take care of that for
you or man.
This has been a really hardseason You guys probably haven't
even been able to to cook orthink about food Let me take
care of that for you.
(33:20):
When you enter those thosemoments of need and meet a very
tangible need, it can be soimpactful.
That's the kind of empathy thatI'm trying to live into.
we were talking about theairplane analogy and the masks.
Another one that comes to mindis, let's say you are, you're
(33:42):
all boarding, an airplane andyou notice somebody has maybe
just several carry on pieces ofluggage and they're struggling
to get them all on the plane.
So you decide to help them.
Well, then you get to your seatand everybody's stowing away
their bags, but you're clutchingthis person's bag as you're
(34:02):
sitting in your seat.
And this person is across theplane from you kind of looking
at you like, What are you doingover there?
Why do you have my bag?
That's kind of weird.
And I think sometimes asempaths, it's easy to hold on to
other people's burdens for toolong.
And sometimes we just need toput them down and that's okay.
(34:22):
it's just all about that balanceof letting go and holding on.
Jim (34:32):
When you were talking about being a laundry fairy or helping
with all these different things,the key parts there is that you
are the one coming up with theideas.
I'm going to bring you a meal.
What day would be best?
Can I bring it this Friday?
Because when you say, Hey, I'mhere to help.
If you need anything
Ben (34:51):
Right.
you
Jim (34:52):
forget it.
You might as well have not saidanything that that doesn't mean
anything.
Ben (34:55):
That's that's where sympathy becomes empathy right
there in that moment
Jim (35:00):
yes.
Step into people's lives.
Being able to help each otherrather than staying in our own
sort of tunnel vision, and beingokay in that moment.
I think that's where empathylives and thrives.
That's how we can help eachother.
Ben (35:15):
Good stuff
Jim (35:17):
Thanks so much for listening today.
Hopefully you got some goodnuggets out of this episode.
Empathy and pride, humility, allthat kind of stuff has this deep
interplay into into how we dothis, but I think we all have a
capacity to be able to step ineach other's lives and, and help
one another.
Ben (35:36):
Thanks for listening to Real Men Hug.
We'll see you next time.
Real Men Hug, and they hugbecause they empathize.
Jim (35:48):
Real men hug, but they also accept hugs from other people
when they're feeling down
Ben (35:56):
Yes, indeed.
Jim (35:59):
Let's get some lunch.
Ben (36:01):
Let's do it
Jim (36:02):
Cool.
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