November 21, 2024 • 31 mins
This week, Ben and Jim dive into the nuances of holiday traditions, exploring how we can reclaim joy and reduce stress by celebrating on our own terms. Whether it’s debating the supremacy of cheesy potatoes over green bean casserole or reflecting on the idea of “picking a different day” to celebrate, they bring both humor and heart to the conversation.
Through personal stories and heartfelt reflections, they discuss the tension of navigating family dynamics while staying true to what matters most. Holidays can feel like a time where the expectations never let you down, but Ben and Jim remind us that crafting new traditions is an act of love—for yourself and those you care about.
Whether you’re embracing change or holding on to time-honored rituals, this episode is about finding joy in connection and creating moments that will always stay with you.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ben (00:23):
Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Ben.
Jim.
Welcome to the show.
Jim (00:35):
Okay.
Are you auditioning?
America's Got Talent over here?
I think you're on the wrong
Ben (00:42):
holiday edition.
Thanksgiving,
Jim (00:44):
It is, we're celebrating the holidays, coming to you the
week before Thanksgiving.
You excited for Thanksgiving?
Ben (00:52):
I am, definitely.
Jim (00:55):
Thanksgiving is probably one of my more favorite
holidays, if I'm gonna behonest.
Ben (01:00):
Yes, what do you enjoy about it?
Jim (01:02):
The food.
Ben (01:03):
The food
Jim (01:04):
know, I think, honestly, probably Fourth of July, I
think, is my favorite holiday,believe it or not.
Yeah, just cause there's like,there's not as many obligations
that come with it.
You just like, show up, enjoyyourself, have a barbecue in the
summer.
It's lots of fun.
Thanksgiving, I feel likethere's a lot more, you gotta do
(01:24):
this, you gotta do that, makesure this is set up, it's a ton
of work, the food is great,don't get me wrong, it's maybe
like my second favorite holiday.
Ben (01:32):
holiday Christmas isn't in your top two favorite
Jim (01:36):
It's probably my third favorite holiday, believe it or
not,
Ben (01:40):
Impressive.
Jim (01:41):
Because again, I, I think the thing that gets me about
Christmas, I do love Christmas,love me, I, Good Hallmark movie.
Love seeing the snow.
I love decorating the house withall the Christmas lights and
everything, but it is, I thinkjust so much of the obligations
and what presents are you goingto get?
And by that, I mean, like thepressure of, I got to get the
(02:03):
right.
Present for my kids or my wifeor whatever and it stresses my
wife out to no end So obviouslythat has an impact on me too
because you're trying to balanceall of these Expectations and
what other people want and thinkand so there's just so much more
pressure I feel like withChristmas whereas with the 4th
of July, it's like yeah, youshow up when you show up Bring
(02:26):
food to feed yourself.
There'll be other stuff thereand You get to blow stuff up and
celebrate Mirka.
I mean,
Ben (02:34):
what
Jim (02:35):
what could be better?
Ben (02:36):
Do you,
Jim (02:37):
Do you, now that I have pitched that, how amazing those
two holidays are?
I feel like I've swayed you,right?
Ben (02:43):
I feel like I've
Jim (02:45):
You're more of a Christmas guy?
Ben (02:46):
I am, I'm more of a Thanksgiving and Christmas kind
of guy.?
Jim (02:50):
Father Christmas over there
Ben (02:51):
of Christmas over there.
behind the 4th of July.
I don't know.
I hated the traffic for thefireworks growing up.
I hated the crowds It justwasn't my scene.
I mean the the picnics and stufflike that were fun, but I don't
know.
I Just don't like Holidays inthe summer because they're hot
(03:15):
They're stressful.
There's tons of people.
I guess the only differencebetween summer holidays Winter
holidays is the temperature, butI don't know.
Jim (03:25):
sounds like a lot of it for you is motivated more about
there being less people aroundyou.
Ben (03:30):
Yeah, I think that's a big part of it.
I just do not enjoy big crowdsand going to fireworks is not my
Jim (03:37):
So, are you saying if I just brought you a turkey on a
random Tuesday, that would beyour favorite holiday?
Ben (03:43):
Heck yeah, bring a turkey.
Jim (03:46):
An entire turkey, just for the two of us.
It wouldn't be Real Men Hug ifwe didn't talk about, like, some
of the nuance that comes withthe holidays, of course.
And that's, that's just thething.
All holidays don't hit everybodythe same way.
And, as I kind of alluded tobefore, for some people, the
same way.
Holidays are more stress thanthey're worth, Seems like for
(04:08):
you, Christmas and Thanksgivingare the cat's pajamas.
Maybe you buy the cat pajamasfor Christmas.
Ben (04:16):
I'm sure my daughter will buy the cat pajamas
Jim (04:19):
That would, oh my gosh, I gotta get Keanu a nice little
pajama set.
How cute! Little cockapoo in apajama set.
Ben (04:27):
Yep.
Jim (04:28):
Love it.
Ben (04:29):
Well, it's already the third week of November, and
believe it or not, last week, Iwent into a Christmas store.
In November.
Jim (04:39):
goodness, like spirit Halloween, only spirit
Christmas.
Ben (04:42):
No, it was like this, independently owned interior
home decor shop that during theholidays they apparently set up
as a Christmas
Jim (04:53):
There you go.
Ben (04:54):
I took my daughter with me to the Chicago area for my
spiritual direction class and wegot breakfast and as we were
leaving breakfast to walk backto the car she noticed this
little Christmas shop.
And my daughter loves Christmas.
She actually had a Grinchsweatshirt on that day.
(05:15):
So of course we had to go to theChristmas store and of course we
had to get ornaments for eachmember of the family, but it was
really cool.
It was a very early start toChristmas, but I didn't mind.
It was pretty
Jim (05:29):
Oh, look at your heart growing three sizes like the
Grinch.
we used to joke, my wife and I,that she was kind of the Grinch
and it is nuts how much kidshave made a difference because
for her.
She doesn't have super fondmemories of Christmas, but once
(05:50):
she had kids of her own now, allof a sudden it made a big
difference.
So before it was all about theChristmas lights, cause she was
never really able to enjoy.
There was a lot of instability,but she always could see.
Nobody could take that away fromher because you're in the car,
you can look at the lights.
So she still loves Christmaslights to this day, but it's
(06:12):
kind of been fun to see, slowlyover time, her heart growing a
few sizes as the kids justreally enjoy doing Christmas.
I think being married and beingable to celebrate it as a family
has made a big difference to heras well.
So that's neat that you're ableto kind of share that with the
next generation of Crocker.
Ben (06:34):
Absolutely.
Jim (06:35):
Christmas.
Ben (06:36):
Crocker Christmas,
Jim (06:37):
Do Crockers have crackers on Christmas?
Ben (06:40):
We do, not
Jim (06:42):
Are there any holidays that just kind of hit different?
When you were a kid, than theydo now.
Ben (06:49):
think Christmas had a way of hitting different as a kid.
Something about it just beingabout the receiving versus the
giving or Christmas just being.
Something that my immediatefamily did and we always just
did that and then gettingmarried and Having a family of
(07:15):
my own and having the freedom tochoose what we do and how we
spend our time I Don't know foras much as I love tradition and
ritual.
I think I was getting to a pointwhere As most if not all kids do
as they grow older where I wasjust kind of like This is what
(07:37):
my parents have always done Imean, it's cool, but There's got
to be something else too maybeor is this it and so Getting
married moving to oregonstarting life with andy having
kids and Deciding to dodifferent things for our family
(08:00):
was a really powerful experiencefor us.
We actually started a traditionon Christmas day for several
years for a lot of reasons,economic and otherwise.
And just because of the needs ofthe kids that we were caring
for, it was very difficult totravel, especially during the
(08:20):
holidays.
And so we just chose not to, wejust stayed in Oregon.
And if Family wanted to see us.
We just told them you're gonnahave to come here if you want to
see us at Christmas That's justhow it is right now And so we
made our own traditions at thatpoint One of them was going to a
(08:42):
chinese buffet on christmas dayAnd it was the silliest but most
meaningful tradition That wecame up with it was so fun to
You wake up on Christmasmorning, do some presents with
the kids, you know, eat whateverleftovers may have been in the
fridge from whatever churchpotluck we might've gone to or
(09:04):
whatever the case may be.
And then around lunchtime, youknow, everybody get up and get
dressed and go to the mall andgo to the, Chinese buffet for
lunch.
It was just so random and funnyand It was just our thing for
several years that we lived outin Oregon.
Jim (09:25):
You had always done things a certain way, when you were in
your family of origin and thenall of a sudden you're in a
completely different state byyourself and just doing things
that you had never done before.
Was that weird for you though?
Ben (09:41):
weird.
I mean, I remember the firstyear that we did it, We were on
the phone with my family backhere in Michigan, but we're
basically three hours aheadhere.
So we'd be catching up with themafter the meal and then
everybody's asking what we're upto and we're like, we're going
out for Chinese food in a littlebit.
Jim (10:04):
That's awesome.
Ben (10:05):
was very much like this.
Odd sense of We're really doingthis.
We're really here thousands ofmiles from family We're doing
our own dang thing and thisfeels kind of good.
Like there was just someautonomy about it and some
independence and Yeah, that'sright.
(10:26):
That's how we're gonna roll thisyear.
We're doing our own thing andthis is really fun So it it
certainly felt a little bit oddAwkward and like, uh, we should
be in Michigan with all of ourfamily, but it quickly turned
into, you know what?
We're okay with not being there.
We're starting our own thing andthis is good.
Jim (10:47):
Well, and you said you were kind of facilitating to the
unique needs of being a fosterparent too.
You're kind of giving them a newsense of self and some stability
and like for them, that'sChristmas, right?
You, you go and get Chinesefood.
I can think back to when we didstuff at Christmas and don't get
(11:09):
me wrong.
It was an absolute blast.
I really enjoyed all of thedifferent traditions we had.
I don't know about you growingup in a religious household.
Of course, you have to read theChristmas story out of the
Bible.
And,
Ben (11:21):
Did you do Advent Calendars
Jim (11:23):
we never did Advent.
Well, um, Let me rephrase.
I do not recall doing an adventcalendar, but we did do like the
stockings the day, but likeChristmas Eve, you could wake up
at five in the morning.
We didn't like do it alltogether.
For the stockings anyways, itwas just like once you got up,
you could open up yourstockings, so I was always
(11:43):
incentivized to wake up reallyearly.
Maybe it was Christmas morning,but either way, whatever it was,
it was like first thing in themorning that we did that.
so it's certainly a joyous time,but I know for a lot of people
there is a lot of trauma.
around holidays as well, so Iknow that's the case for me, and
that's something that I've hadto kind of wrestle with to some
(12:06):
extent.
Coming from a family of divorce,they make that joke that, well,
the one good thing about divorceis you get twice as many
presents.
I remember Melissa talking aboutthat since she didn't have a dad
in the picture, she didn't getany extra presents.
And it was always, you justnever knew half the time she
(12:27):
ended up just getting likeschool supplies or something
like that it wasn't reallyanything special for her and so
it was for her like thatobligation and just wasn't a
cheerful time The holidays for alot of people can be really
tough, especially if you've lostsomebody close to you when
(12:49):
you've got Thanksgiving andChristmas rolling through,
especially when it's so focusedon family, I think that can be
really tough And coming from abroken home, I've got step
siblings and step siblings fromlike a previous marriage, but
they're still part of the familyand like we still see them.
(13:13):
And so when, when do you dosomething with this side of the
family versus that side of thefamily and there's this
obligation and every other yearand traveling to this and do you
go out of state and you do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, who's invited andwho's not invited and something
gets canceled.
And while you're bringing thisperson, but, oh, it's just can
be just logistically, it can bereally stressful and anxiety
(13:37):
producing versus if you justgrew up in like the nuclear
family where none of that wasthere, you just think about all
the.
Great memories that you have andI think at the end of the day I
think I'm trying to do that formy kids right give them a safe
environment where they can havethose happy memories and someday
(14:01):
when and if they get married andthey want to Stick around and
keep doing it with me great ifthey want to do their own thing
Then giving them the freedom todo that and either flexing and
providing a different space forthem on a different day, or just
being like, all right, you gotyour own family.
It was nice seeing it for thefirst 20 years of your life sort
(14:22):
of thing.
So is that a mix with you atall?
Or was it pretty stable enoughthat you felt like it's just all
happy memories and bond bonds?
Ben (14:34):
There was a season of transition of moving back to
Michigan and trying torecalibrate and figure out.
Who do we spend holidays with?
Who gets priority?
We've been gone for all theseyears and now we're back.
How are we going to re engageand who's going to get our time?
(14:54):
And there's so many people whowant to see us and we just had
to set some boundaries andchoose who we wanted to spend
that time with and, and reallykind of just, you know, Make for
ourselves what we wanted theholidays to be and that's really
an important thing to do.
we are adults and we can callthose shots just like you were
(15:18):
talking about I think all toooften It's easy to fall into
that trap of thinking that thisis the way it's always been done
in our family Even though I'm inmy 40s, this is what mom and dad
always want and this is whatwe're gonna do and you sacrifice
so much peace and so muchOpportunity to craft new
(15:39):
memories with your own newfamily that You just let go of
those things all in the name ofappeasing mom and dad and I just
You know, I know i've hadmoments where i've done that And
I just look back and think onthe times where I said to my
(16:01):
parents or whoever else, let'sfind a different time to
celebrate because I would liketo spend this night or this day
or whatever with my family.
And it's important for us tohave that opportunity too.
And doing that has always gonebetter than I thought it would.
(16:21):
And even if it didn't, like,even if it went Horribly wrong
or it, you know blew up in myface.
think it'd still be worth it inthe end
Jim (16:32):
Right.
At the end of the day, you haveto do what's best for your
family.
Certainly, you want to considerother people in the picture as
well, but yeah, you're going todo what makes the most sense for
your family, because holidaytraditions are a big part of
that.
What are your thoughts on, Iknow for a lot of people, Say
Father's Day.
(16:53):
Father's Day for the guy who'sbeen married for 12 years and
been trying to have kids for
Ben (17:00):
10.
Jim (17:01):
Valentine's Day for the 45 year old.
single lady who desperatelywants not only to be married,
but to have kids as well.
And it just hasn't happened ormother's day for somebody who
had like a toxic mother who likeruined everything.
And now it's hard for them tocelebrate that or feel valued or
(17:26):
whatever on their day.
It's so nuanced for some people.
And even almost like a negativething.
That they're trying to avoid.
What are your thoughts on thatand how is that something that
you can kind of resuscitate theday or repurpose it somehow, or
is it, do you just kind of hidein a closet that day and wait
(17:49):
for it to pass?
Ben (17:50):
I think it can be a both and right?
Like, I don't think it has to bethe same thing every year.
So, for example, in our family,Mother's Day and Father's Day
are very loaded holidays, or atleast they have been in the
past.
Recently, it's gotten better asour kids have really grown up.
(18:13):
Kind of come into their own andhave done a lot of their own
inner work and healing when itcomes to the trauma of
separation from their birthparents.
But before they had done thatwork, Mother's Day and Father's
Day brought to the surface somany unresolved emotions and
conflicts and even birthdays,like any day that Andy or I was
(18:40):
at the center was a verydifficult day for our kids.
And so there were years wherewe're like, you know what?
we're just not gonna push it.
We're just not gonna make a bigdeal out of the holiday or the
birthday We're just gonna let itbe Because there's so many Other
things competing for our kidsattention There's so many
(19:02):
conflicting emotions associatedwith that day And it's just not
worth it And so it's not adefeatist mechanism or anything
like that.
It's just reality of saying, youknow what, it's too much this
year and instead of trying tofight through it and fake it
until I make it, we're just notgoing to worry about it.
(19:23):
We're going to take the pressureoff.
Let it just be another day.
And the years that we've donethat, one of the things that
we've tried is pick a differentday.
Okay.
You know, maybe father's day isrough, but we're just going to
pick, I don't know, May 20 andthat's father's day.
(19:45):
Or we're not even going to callit father's day.
We're just going to pick May 20and we're going to celebrate Ben
day, whatever the case may be.
And it's just a day.
That we would have done onFather's Day, but Father's Day
is just too hard this year Sowe're gonna do a Ben day on May
20
Jim (20:03):
have
Ben (20:04):
So it doesn't have to be this thing that you have to You
know force yourself into doinglike if it's too hard to do
Christmas this year Just don'tdo Christmas like let yourself
off the hook.
It's not That big of a deal yoursanity is worth far more than
(20:25):
Trying to squeeze yourself intoa mold for a holiday
Jim (20:30):
and I think that while that is easier said than done, when
you have supportive relatives, Ithink some people really have
kind of that manipulation wherelike, well, you have to do this.
Don't you love me?
Blah, blah, blah.
But I think you really werecircling around the idea At the
end of the day, when it comes tothe holidays, we are doing
(20:51):
what's best for our kids.
And so when it comes toChristmas, as they get older, as
much as we love and cherishthose memories that we had with
them, if the best thing for themat Christmas time is us not
being a part of it, that's whatwe do for our kids because now
they're married and have kids oftheir own.
(21:12):
And we're trying to give themthe space to celebrate, but that
can be a really hard thingbecause.
It's tough for us because thatwas a big part of who we are and
our identity, because we'reraising these kids.
It can be really tough to letgo.
But I think of my youngest, whenyou think about birthdays, you
(21:35):
get a cake.
You light some candles, you singa song, you open presents in
front of everybody.
All of the things that myyoungest hates.
He doesn't like cake.
He doesn't want attention.
He doesn't want everybodylooking at him.
And so, I can do that becausethat's what you're supposed to
(21:57):
do on birthdays.
But, we've gotten to a pointwhere it's like, you know what,
we don't do anything.
Any of that anymore.
Instead of a cake, we get him acheesecake because he loves
cheesecake.
Instead of singing a song, wejust don't.
(22:18):
Instead of having a bunch ofpeople watching him open
presents, we go to.
A climbing gym and take a friendor two of his and they go
climbing all day together andthey just get to celebrate and
have fun with Grayson and thenthey leave and he opens the
(22:39):
presents after they leavebecause he just doesn't, he
doesn't like the attention andthe obligation of all of that
stuff.
So while I've been told my wholelife, this is how birthdays in
America are supposed to go.
That's not what my kid wants.
And he's the one it's for.
And so I honestly get so muchmore joy out of doing the things
(23:02):
that he really likes to do.
And I, I think I've seen kind ofa movement of that more, and
maybe it's just me cause I'mlooking for it, but less about,
Hey, we got you this big giftand more about, Hey, we spent
money on this neat experiencethat you get to do.
Cause that's a memory that youget to carry with you forever
(23:22):
versus a video game that I don'tknow, maybe you get a couple
hundred hours into it, but thenyou never touch it again.
And, but that memory you get tokeep forever.
So I think just as you weretalking, it made me think about
that, that the holidays, a lotof it is centered around for us
parents anyways, centered aroundour kids.
Ben (23:45):
parents anyways, centered around our kids.
There's so much freedom in thatgift.
And if you think about it, thatis a super meaningful gift
(24:07):
because you're essentiallygiving them a blank canvas and
saying, here's Christmas,whatever you need it to be, you
get to make it.
We're here if you want us to bea part of it, but we're also
here if you just want us tocheer you on and setting up
whatever tradition it is thatyou have in mind.
I just think that's an awesomeapproach to take.
(24:30):
Especially as kids get older,start having their own families
because it's hard even to thisday Within the last two years my
mom's side of the family thathad done Christmas every year
together.
Her side being her siblings andtheir kids and then their kids
(24:53):
kids.
So it turned into this giganticgathering that just kept
happening year after year afteryear after year.
Finally, got to a point withinthe last couple of years where
everybody was like, okay, we'reinto like generation three now.
I think we need to just be done.
And as much as I loved thosegatherings, it was kind of a
(25:18):
relief when they were done.
Jim (25:20):
it, but
Ben (25:21):
And they even kept these gatherings going past when my
grandparents died.
They still continued them and,and I get it.
But at the same time, like itwas such a gift to me to have
that time back and to not havethat
Jim (25:37):
Yeah, for sure.
It's nuanced, right?
Like I'm right there with you.
I love those gatherings.
There's a part of me that'slike, can we still do those?
Cause I, I love gettingeverybody together, but you're
right.
There's a lot of that.
It's just so big and so muchthat I found my kids are at an
age where it's, it's tough tomeet all of those expectations.
(25:58):
So I don't think there'sanything wrong with a parent,
like even trying to find a daythat does work for you as the.
Now separated parent, it justmight not be on the day of or
the day before even it might notbe where you expect it to be.
I.
I think that you should make apoint to spend time with your
(26:21):
family of origin.
If you're all in the same areaand you can hang out with your
parents sometime around theholidays, especially if you
don't see them that much tobegin with, make a point to do
that.
This is not me trying to say,Yes, and now it is time to cut
your parents out of your life.
Entirely.
It just looks different as youget older because at some point
or another, you do have torealize, okay, at what point did
(26:45):
you stop going and doing stuffwith your grandparents?
When did you do stuff just withyour family?
We are at that age where for alot of people, if you haven't
transitioned already, you'reright around the corner to doing
that.
And it, you know, It can betenuous sometimes cause it's
just change for people and itjust feels kind of icky
(27:08):
sometimes, or like you're doingsomething wrong or you're
stepping on somebody's toes andthat just goes back to what I
was saying before.
Sometimes the holidays can bemore stressful because we care
about each other and, and wewant to do the right thing and
say the right thing.
And sometimes we betrayourselves.
(27:30):
in that process by not listeningto our own heart and what's best
for our immediate family,especially when you do have,
when you do have kids,
Ben (27:40):
have
Jim (27:42):
makes a difference.
So, well, that's just all theworms and fuzzies about the
holidays, right?
Ben (27:48):
It is.
What is your favorite holidaydish?
Jim (27:54):
Oh, that's tough
Ben (27:56):
Really?
You have to think
Jim (27:58):
because there's so many, honestly, I almost have to say
cheesy potatoes
Ben (28:05):
yeah, that's a good one.
Jim (28:07):
because those come, I feel like somebody makes cheesy
potatoes in my family for prettymuch every holiday.
And I love them.
I just love them so much.
So even beyond like pies andthings like that, I think I just
get excited about the cheesypotatoes.
Ben (28:24):
Have you ever heard them called funeral potatoes?
Jim (28:27):
Never do not sully the name of Cheesy Potatoes.
No!
Ben (28:32):
of cheesy potatoes.
You
Jim (28:34):
No it, no it is not.
Ben (28:36):
what makes a
Jim (28:38):
You know what?
You know what makes a funeralbetter?
Cheesy Potatoes.
So, if you want to call themFuneral Potatoes, be my guest.
They,
Ben (28:46):
do they to
Jim (28:48):
but you could call them Christmas Potatoes
Ben (28:50):
don't
Jim (28:50):
Why do they have to be Funeral
Ben (28:52):
me, it's all about the green bean casserole.
Jim (28:56):
Green bean casserole?
Ben (28:58):
French
Jim (28:59):
what you're gonna go with?
Ben (29:00):
So good
Jim (29:01):
I'm not saying they're not good, but Ben, that makes you
old and boring, that you thinkthat green bean casserole is the
Ben (29:06):
We already knew this jim this is not
Jim (29:08):
ha ha ha.
I love, I really do love theholidays.
They're, they are stressful andthe I actually really like doing
gifts.
I know my wife, if she listensto this, it's going to be like,
you do.
I'm hard to shop for it.
Don't get me wrong.
I really am.
I'm hard to shop
Ben (29:24):
You don't just give like this is what I want go buy it
from
Jim (29:27):
The problem is though, like the little things I don't care,
you know, like if you're talkingabout a gift under 50 bucks,
it's either something I neededand I bought it already, but.
Or it's under 50 bucks and Idon't really care that I don't
have it.
The things that I want are like300 things or 600 things and
(29:50):
that's why I don't have thembecause they're too expensive.
So, so what are you supposed tobuy, Jim, when I don't really
care about all the other thingsand my hobbies tend to shift?
You said you were at a Christmasstore already,
Ben (30:04):
already, so.
Jim (30:05):
Did you buy anything yet?
Ben (30:07):
For you?
No.
Jim (30:09):
What about for your wife?
Ben (30:11):
I mean, we bought ornaments, but that's about it.
Jim (30:14):
So, if you haven't done your Christmas shopping yet,
listeners, be sure to get outthere, hit up some Black Friday
deals for us, enjoy the holidaysat your own pace.
And so do I.
Ben (30:33):
Real men hug and they also make the rules for their holiday
engagements.
Jim (30:39):
and they also allude to Rick Astley.
Ben (30:43):
never gonna give you up.
Jim (30:45):
I'm never gonna let you down, Ben.
I might lie to you, though, ifI'm being
Ben (30:50):
That wouldn't be honest though.
Jim (30:52):
I'm being honest about not being honest.
Ben (30:55):
We wish you a Merry Christmas.
Jim (30:58):
And Happy Thanksgiving.
Ben (31:00):
And a Happy New Year too.
Thanks for listening.
Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Ben.
Jim.
Welcome to the show.
Jim (00:35):
Okay.
Are you auditioning?
America's Got Talent over here?
I think you're on the wrong
Ben (00:42):
holiday edition.
Thanksgiving,
Jim (00:44):
It is, we're celebrating the holidays, coming to you the
week before Thanksgiving.
You excited for Thanksgiving?
Ben (00:52):
I am, definitely.
Jim (00:55):
Thanksgiving is probably one of my more favorite
holidays, if I'm gonna behonest.
Ben (01:00):
Yes, what do you enjoy about it?
Jim (01:02):
The food.
Ben (01:03):
The food
Jim (01:04):
know, I think, honestly, probably Fourth of July, I
think, is my favorite holiday,believe it or not.
Yeah, just cause there's like,there's not as many obligations
that come with it.
You just like, show up, enjoyyourself, have a barbecue in the
summer.
It's lots of fun.
Thanksgiving, I feel likethere's a lot more, you gotta do
(01:24):
this, you gotta do that, makesure this is set up, it's a ton
of work, the food is great,don't get me wrong, it's maybe
like my second favorite holiday.
Ben (01:32):
holiday Christmas isn't in your top two favorite
Jim (01:36):
It's probably my third favorite holiday, believe it or
not,
Ben (01:40):
Impressive.
Jim (01:41):
Because again, I, I think the thing that gets me about
Christmas, I do love Christmas,love me, I, Good Hallmark movie.
Love seeing the snow.
I love decorating the house withall the Christmas lights and
everything, but it is, I thinkjust so much of the obligations
and what presents are you goingto get?
And by that, I mean, like thepressure of, I got to get the
(02:03):
right.
Present for my kids or my wifeor whatever and it stresses my
wife out to no end So obviouslythat has an impact on me too
because you're trying to balanceall of these Expectations and
what other people want and thinkand so there's just so much more
pressure I feel like withChristmas whereas with the 4th
of July, it's like yeah, youshow up when you show up Bring
(02:26):
food to feed yourself.
There'll be other stuff thereand You get to blow stuff up and
celebrate Mirka.
I mean,
Ben (02:34):
what
Jim (02:35):
what could be better?
Ben (02:36):
Do you,
Jim (02:37):
Do you, now that I have pitched that, how amazing those
two holidays are?
I feel like I've swayed you,right?
Ben (02:43):
I feel like I've
Jim (02:45):
You're more of a Christmas guy?
Ben (02:46):
I am, I'm more of a Thanksgiving and Christmas kind
of guy.?
Jim (02:50):
Father Christmas over there
Ben (02:51):
of Christmas over there.
behind the 4th of July.
I don't know.
I hated the traffic for thefireworks growing up.
I hated the crowds It justwasn't my scene.
I mean the the picnics and stufflike that were fun, but I don't
know.
I Just don't like Holidays inthe summer because they're hot
(03:15):
They're stressful.
There's tons of people.
I guess the only differencebetween summer holidays Winter
holidays is the temperature, butI don't know.
Jim (03:25):
sounds like a lot of it for you is motivated more about
there being less people aroundyou.
Ben (03:30):
Yeah, I think that's a big part of it.
I just do not enjoy big crowdsand going to fireworks is not my
Jim (03:37):
So, are you saying if I just brought you a turkey on a
random Tuesday, that would beyour favorite holiday?
Ben (03:43):
Heck yeah, bring a turkey.
Jim (03:46):
An entire turkey, just for the two of us.
It wouldn't be Real Men Hug ifwe didn't talk about, like, some
of the nuance that comes withthe holidays, of course.
And that's, that's just thething.
All holidays don't hit everybodythe same way.
And, as I kind of alluded tobefore, for some people, the
same way.
Holidays are more stress thanthey're worth, Seems like for
(04:08):
you, Christmas and Thanksgivingare the cat's pajamas.
Maybe you buy the cat pajamasfor Christmas.
Ben (04:16):
I'm sure my daughter will buy the cat pajamas
Jim (04:19):
That would, oh my gosh, I gotta get Keanu a nice little
pajama set.
How cute! Little cockapoo in apajama set.
Ben (04:27):
Yep.
Jim (04:28):
Love it.
Ben (04:29):
Well, it's already the third week of November, and
believe it or not, last week, Iwent into a Christmas store.
In November.
Jim (04:39):
goodness, like spirit Halloween, only spirit
Christmas.
Ben (04:42):
No, it was like this, independently owned interior
home decor shop that during theholidays they apparently set up
as a Christmas
Jim (04:53):
There you go.
Ben (04:54):
I took my daughter with me to the Chicago area for my
spiritual direction class and wegot breakfast and as we were
leaving breakfast to walk backto the car she noticed this
little Christmas shop.
And my daughter loves Christmas.
She actually had a Grinchsweatshirt on that day.
(05:15):
So of course we had to go to theChristmas store and of course we
had to get ornaments for eachmember of the family, but it was
really cool.
It was a very early start toChristmas, but I didn't mind.
It was pretty
Jim (05:29):
Oh, look at your heart growing three sizes like the
Grinch.
we used to joke, my wife and I,that she was kind of the Grinch
and it is nuts how much kidshave made a difference because
for her.
She doesn't have super fondmemories of Christmas, but once
(05:50):
she had kids of her own now, allof a sudden it made a big
difference.
So before it was all about theChristmas lights, cause she was
never really able to enjoy.
There was a lot of instability,but she always could see.
Nobody could take that away fromher because you're in the car,
you can look at the lights.
So she still loves Christmaslights to this day, but it's
(06:12):
kind of been fun to see, slowlyover time, her heart growing a
few sizes as the kids justreally enjoy doing Christmas.
I think being married and beingable to celebrate it as a family
has made a big difference to heras well.
So that's neat that you're ableto kind of share that with the
next generation of Crocker.
Ben (06:34):
Absolutely.
Jim (06:35):
Christmas.
Ben (06:36):
Crocker Christmas,
Jim (06:37):
Do Crockers have crackers on Christmas?
Ben (06:40):
We do, not
Jim (06:42):
Are there any holidays that just kind of hit different?
When you were a kid, than theydo now.
Ben (06:49):
think Christmas had a way of hitting different as a kid.
Something about it just beingabout the receiving versus the
giving or Christmas just being.
Something that my immediatefamily did and we always just
did that and then gettingmarried and Having a family of
(07:15):
my own and having the freedom tochoose what we do and how we
spend our time I Don't know foras much as I love tradition and
ritual.
I think I was getting to a pointwhere As most if not all kids do
as they grow older where I wasjust kind of like This is what
(07:37):
my parents have always done Imean, it's cool, but There's got
to be something else too maybeor is this it and so Getting
married moving to oregonstarting life with andy having
kids and Deciding to dodifferent things for our family
(08:00):
was a really powerful experiencefor us.
We actually started a traditionon Christmas day for several
years for a lot of reasons,economic and otherwise.
And just because of the needs ofthe kids that we were caring
for, it was very difficult totravel, especially during the
(08:20):
holidays.
And so we just chose not to, wejust stayed in Oregon.
And if Family wanted to see us.
We just told them you're gonnahave to come here if you want to
see us at Christmas That's justhow it is right now And so we
made our own traditions at thatpoint One of them was going to a
(08:42):
chinese buffet on christmas dayAnd it was the silliest but most
meaningful tradition That wecame up with it was so fun to
You wake up on Christmasmorning, do some presents with
the kids, you know, eat whateverleftovers may have been in the
fridge from whatever churchpotluck we might've gone to or
(09:04):
whatever the case may be.
And then around lunchtime, youknow, everybody get up and get
dressed and go to the mall andgo to the, Chinese buffet for
lunch.
It was just so random and funnyand It was just our thing for
several years that we lived outin Oregon.
Jim (09:25):
You had always done things a certain way, when you were in
your family of origin and thenall of a sudden you're in a
completely different state byyourself and just doing things
that you had never done before.
Was that weird for you though?
Ben (09:41):
weird.
I mean, I remember the firstyear that we did it, We were on
the phone with my family backhere in Michigan, but we're
basically three hours aheadhere.
So we'd be catching up with themafter the meal and then
everybody's asking what we're upto and we're like, we're going
out for Chinese food in a littlebit.
Jim (10:04):
That's awesome.
Ben (10:05):
was very much like this.
Odd sense of We're really doingthis.
We're really here thousands ofmiles from family We're doing
our own dang thing and thisfeels kind of good.
Like there was just someautonomy about it and some
independence and Yeah, that'sright.
(10:26):
That's how we're gonna roll thisyear.
We're doing our own thing andthis is really fun So it it
certainly felt a little bit oddAwkward and like, uh, we should
be in Michigan with all of ourfamily, but it quickly turned
into, you know what?
We're okay with not being there.
We're starting our own thing andthis is good.
Jim (10:47):
Well, and you said you were kind of facilitating to the
unique needs of being a fosterparent too.
You're kind of giving them a newsense of self and some stability
and like for them, that'sChristmas, right?
You, you go and get Chinesefood.
I can think back to when we didstuff at Christmas and don't get
(11:09):
me wrong.
It was an absolute blast.
I really enjoyed all of thedifferent traditions we had.
I don't know about you growingup in a religious household.
Of course, you have to read theChristmas story out of the
Bible.
And,
Ben (11:21):
Did you do Advent Calendars
Jim (11:23):
we never did Advent.
Well, um, Let me rephrase.
I do not recall doing an adventcalendar, but we did do like the
stockings the day, but likeChristmas Eve, you could wake up
at five in the morning.
We didn't like do it alltogether.
For the stockings anyways, itwas just like once you got up,
you could open up yourstockings, so I was always
(11:43):
incentivized to wake up reallyearly.
Maybe it was Christmas morning,but either way, whatever it was,
it was like first thing in themorning that we did that.
so it's certainly a joyous time,but I know for a lot of people
there is a lot of trauma.
around holidays as well, so Iknow that's the case for me, and
that's something that I've hadto kind of wrestle with to some
(12:06):
extent.
Coming from a family of divorce,they make that joke that, well,
the one good thing about divorceis you get twice as many
presents.
I remember Melissa talking aboutthat since she didn't have a dad
in the picture, she didn't getany extra presents.
And it was always, you justnever knew half the time she
(12:27):
ended up just getting likeschool supplies or something
like that it wasn't reallyanything special for her and so
it was for her like thatobligation and just wasn't a
cheerful time The holidays for alot of people can be really
tough, especially if you've lostsomebody close to you when
(12:49):
you've got Thanksgiving andChristmas rolling through,
especially when it's so focusedon family, I think that can be
really tough And coming from abroken home, I've got step
siblings and step siblings fromlike a previous marriage, but
they're still part of the familyand like we still see them.
(13:13):
And so when, when do you dosomething with this side of the
family versus that side of thefamily and there's this
obligation and every other yearand traveling to this and do you
go out of state and you do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, who's invited andwho's not invited and something
gets canceled.
And while you're bringing thisperson, but, oh, it's just can
be just logistically, it can bereally stressful and anxiety
(13:37):
producing versus if you justgrew up in like the nuclear
family where none of that wasthere, you just think about all
the.
Great memories that you have andI think at the end of the day I
think I'm trying to do that formy kids right give them a safe
environment where they can havethose happy memories and someday
(14:01):
when and if they get married andthey want to Stick around and
keep doing it with me great ifthey want to do their own thing
Then giving them the freedom todo that and either flexing and
providing a different space forthem on a different day, or just
being like, all right, you gotyour own family.
It was nice seeing it for thefirst 20 years of your life sort
(14:22):
of thing.
So is that a mix with you atall?
Or was it pretty stable enoughthat you felt like it's just all
happy memories and bond bonds?
Ben (14:34):
There was a season of transition of moving back to
Michigan and trying torecalibrate and figure out.
Who do we spend holidays with?
Who gets priority?
We've been gone for all theseyears and now we're back.
How are we going to re engageand who's going to get our time?
(14:54):
And there's so many people whowant to see us and we just had
to set some boundaries andchoose who we wanted to spend
that time with and, and reallykind of just, you know, Make for
ourselves what we wanted theholidays to be and that's really
an important thing to do.
we are adults and we can callthose shots just like you were
(15:18):
talking about I think all toooften It's easy to fall into
that trap of thinking that thisis the way it's always been done
in our family Even though I'm inmy 40s, this is what mom and dad
always want and this is whatwe're gonna do and you sacrifice
so much peace and so muchOpportunity to craft new
(15:39):
memories with your own newfamily that You just let go of
those things all in the name ofappeasing mom and dad and I just
You know, I know i've hadmoments where i've done that And
I just look back and think onthe times where I said to my
(16:01):
parents or whoever else, let'sfind a different time to
celebrate because I would liketo spend this night or this day
or whatever with my family.
And it's important for us tohave that opportunity too.
And doing that has always gonebetter than I thought it would.
(16:21):
And even if it didn't, like,even if it went Horribly wrong
or it, you know blew up in myface.
think it'd still be worth it inthe end
Jim (16:32):
Right.
At the end of the day, you haveto do what's best for your
family.
Certainly, you want to considerother people in the picture as
well, but yeah, you're going todo what makes the most sense for
your family, because holidaytraditions are a big part of
that.
What are your thoughts on, Iknow for a lot of people, Say
Father's Day.
(16:53):
Father's Day for the guy who'sbeen married for 12 years and
been trying to have kids for
Ben (17:00):
10.
Jim (17:01):
Valentine's Day for the 45 year old.
single lady who desperatelywants not only to be married,
but to have kids as well.
And it just hasn't happened ormother's day for somebody who
had like a toxic mother who likeruined everything.
And now it's hard for them tocelebrate that or feel valued or
(17:26):
whatever on their day.
It's so nuanced for some people.
And even almost like a negativething.
That they're trying to avoid.
What are your thoughts on thatand how is that something that
you can kind of resuscitate theday or repurpose it somehow, or
is it, do you just kind of hidein a closet that day and wait
(17:49):
for it to pass?
Ben (17:50):
I think it can be a both and right?
Like, I don't think it has to bethe same thing every year.
So, for example, in our family,Mother's Day and Father's Day
are very loaded holidays, or atleast they have been in the
past.
Recently, it's gotten better asour kids have really grown up.
(18:13):
Kind of come into their own andhave done a lot of their own
inner work and healing when itcomes to the trauma of
separation from their birthparents.
But before they had done thatwork, Mother's Day and Father's
Day brought to the surface somany unresolved emotions and
conflicts and even birthdays,like any day that Andy or I was
(18:40):
at the center was a verydifficult day for our kids.
And so there were years wherewe're like, you know what?
we're just not gonna push it.
We're just not gonna make a bigdeal out of the holiday or the
birthday We're just gonna let itbe Because there's so many Other
things competing for our kidsattention There's so many
(19:02):
conflicting emotions associatedwith that day And it's just not
worth it And so it's not adefeatist mechanism or anything
like that.
It's just reality of saying, youknow what, it's too much this
year and instead of trying tofight through it and fake it
until I make it, we're just notgoing to worry about it.
(19:23):
We're going to take the pressureoff.
Let it just be another day.
And the years that we've donethat, one of the things that
we've tried is pick a differentday.
Okay.
You know, maybe father's day isrough, but we're just going to
pick, I don't know, May 20 andthat's father's day.
(19:45):
Or we're not even going to callit father's day.
We're just going to pick May 20and we're going to celebrate Ben
day, whatever the case may be.
And it's just a day.
That we would have done onFather's Day, but Father's Day
is just too hard this year Sowe're gonna do a Ben day on May
20
Jim (20:03):
have
Ben (20:04):
So it doesn't have to be this thing that you have to You
know force yourself into doinglike if it's too hard to do
Christmas this year Just don'tdo Christmas like let yourself
off the hook.
It's not That big of a deal yoursanity is worth far more than
(20:25):
Trying to squeeze yourself intoa mold for a holiday
Jim (20:30):
and I think that while that is easier said than done, when
you have supportive relatives, Ithink some people really have
kind of that manipulation wherelike, well, you have to do this.
Don't you love me?
Blah, blah, blah.
But I think you really werecircling around the idea At the
end of the day, when it comes tothe holidays, we are doing
(20:51):
what's best for our kids.
And so when it comes toChristmas, as they get older, as
much as we love and cherishthose memories that we had with
them, if the best thing for themat Christmas time is us not
being a part of it, that's whatwe do for our kids because now
they're married and have kids oftheir own.
(21:12):
And we're trying to give themthe space to celebrate, but that
can be a really hard thingbecause.
It's tough for us because thatwas a big part of who we are and
our identity, because we'reraising these kids.
It can be really tough to letgo.
But I think of my youngest, whenyou think about birthdays, you
(21:35):
get a cake.
You light some candles, you singa song, you open presents in
front of everybody.
All of the things that myyoungest hates.
He doesn't like cake.
He doesn't want attention.
He doesn't want everybodylooking at him.
And so, I can do that becausethat's what you're supposed to
(21:57):
do on birthdays.
But, we've gotten to a pointwhere it's like, you know what,
we don't do anything.
Any of that anymore.
Instead of a cake, we get him acheesecake because he loves
cheesecake.
Instead of singing a song, wejust don't.
(22:18):
Instead of having a bunch ofpeople watching him open
presents, we go to.
A climbing gym and take a friendor two of his and they go
climbing all day together andthey just get to celebrate and
have fun with Grayson and thenthey leave and he opens the
(22:39):
presents after they leavebecause he just doesn't, he
doesn't like the attention andthe obligation of all of that
stuff.
So while I've been told my wholelife, this is how birthdays in
America are supposed to go.
That's not what my kid wants.
And he's the one it's for.
And so I honestly get so muchmore joy out of doing the things
(23:02):
that he really likes to do.
And I, I think I've seen kind ofa movement of that more, and
maybe it's just me cause I'mlooking for it, but less about,
Hey, we got you this big giftand more about, Hey, we spent
money on this neat experiencethat you get to do.
Cause that's a memory that youget to carry with you forever
(23:22):
versus a video game that I don'tknow, maybe you get a couple
hundred hours into it, but thenyou never touch it again.
And, but that memory you get tokeep forever.
So I think just as you weretalking, it made me think about
that, that the holidays, a lotof it is centered around for us
parents anyways, centered aroundour kids.
Ben (23:45):
parents anyways, centered around our kids.
There's so much freedom in thatgift.
And if you think about it, thatis a super meaningful gift
(24:07):
because you're essentiallygiving them a blank canvas and
saying, here's Christmas,whatever you need it to be, you
get to make it.
We're here if you want us to bea part of it, but we're also
here if you just want us tocheer you on and setting up
whatever tradition it is thatyou have in mind.
I just think that's an awesomeapproach to take.
(24:30):
Especially as kids get older,start having their own families
because it's hard even to thisday Within the last two years my
mom's side of the family thathad done Christmas every year
together.
Her side being her siblings andtheir kids and then their kids
(24:53):
kids.
So it turned into this giganticgathering that just kept
happening year after year afteryear after year.
Finally, got to a point withinthe last couple of years where
everybody was like, okay, we'reinto like generation three now.
I think we need to just be done.
And as much as I loved thosegatherings, it was kind of a
(25:18):
relief when they were done.
Jim (25:20):
it, but
Ben (25:21):
And they even kept these gatherings going past when my
grandparents died.
They still continued them and,and I get it.
But at the same time, like itwas such a gift to me to have
that time back and to not havethat
Jim (25:37):
Yeah, for sure.
It's nuanced, right?
Like I'm right there with you.
I love those gatherings.
There's a part of me that'slike, can we still do those?
Cause I, I love gettingeverybody together, but you're
right.
There's a lot of that.
It's just so big and so muchthat I found my kids are at an
age where it's, it's tough tomeet all of those expectations.
(25:58):
So I don't think there'sanything wrong with a parent,
like even trying to find a daythat does work for you as the.
Now separated parent, it justmight not be on the day of or
the day before even it might notbe where you expect it to be.
I.
I think that you should make apoint to spend time with your
(26:21):
family of origin.
If you're all in the same areaand you can hang out with your
parents sometime around theholidays, especially if you
don't see them that much tobegin with, make a point to do
that.
This is not me trying to say,Yes, and now it is time to cut
your parents out of your life.
Entirely.
It just looks different as youget older because at some point
or another, you do have torealize, okay, at what point did
(26:45):
you stop going and doing stuffwith your grandparents?
When did you do stuff just withyour family?
We are at that age where for alot of people, if you haven't
transitioned already, you'reright around the corner to doing
that.
And it, you know, It can betenuous sometimes cause it's
just change for people and itjust feels kind of icky
(27:08):
sometimes, or like you're doingsomething wrong or you're
stepping on somebody's toes andthat just goes back to what I
was saying before.
Sometimes the holidays can bemore stressful because we care
about each other and, and wewant to do the right thing and
say the right thing.
And sometimes we betrayourselves.
(27:30):
in that process by not listeningto our own heart and what's best
for our immediate family,especially when you do have,
when you do have kids,
Ben (27:40):
have
Jim (27:42):
makes a difference.
So, well, that's just all theworms and fuzzies about the
holidays, right?
Ben (27:48):
It is.
What is your favorite holidaydish?
Jim (27:54):
Oh, that's tough
Ben (27:56):
Really?
You have to think
Jim (27:58):
because there's so many, honestly, I almost have to say
cheesy potatoes
Ben (28:05):
yeah, that's a good one.
Jim (28:07):
because those come, I feel like somebody makes cheesy
potatoes in my family for prettymuch every holiday.
And I love them.
I just love them so much.
So even beyond like pies andthings like that, I think I just
get excited about the cheesypotatoes.
Ben (28:24):
Have you ever heard them called funeral potatoes?
Jim (28:27):
Never do not sully the name of Cheesy Potatoes.
No!
Ben (28:32):
of cheesy potatoes.
You
Jim (28:34):
No it, no it is not.
Ben (28:36):
what makes a
Jim (28:38):
You know what?
You know what makes a funeralbetter?
Cheesy Potatoes.
So, if you want to call themFuneral Potatoes, be my guest.
They,
Ben (28:46):
do they to
Jim (28:48):
but you could call them Christmas Potatoes
Ben (28:50):
don't
Jim (28:50):
Why do they have to be Funeral
Ben (28:52):
me, it's all about the green bean casserole.
Jim (28:56):
Green bean casserole?
Ben (28:58):
French
Jim (28:59):
what you're gonna go with?
Ben (29:00):
So good
Jim (29:01):
I'm not saying they're not good, but Ben, that makes you
old and boring, that you thinkthat green bean casserole is the
Ben (29:06):
We already knew this jim this is not
Jim (29:08):
ha ha ha.
I love, I really do love theholidays.
They're, they are stressful andthe I actually really like doing
gifts.
I know my wife, if she listensto this, it's going to be like,
you do.
I'm hard to shop for it.
Don't get me wrong.
I really am.
I'm hard to shop
Ben (29:24):
You don't just give like this is what I want go buy it
from
Jim (29:27):
The problem is though, like the little things I don't care,
you know, like if you're talkingabout a gift under 50 bucks,
it's either something I neededand I bought it already, but.
Or it's under 50 bucks and Idon't really care that I don't
have it.
The things that I want are like300 things or 600 things and
(29:50):
that's why I don't have thembecause they're too expensive.
So, so what are you supposed tobuy, Jim, when I don't really
care about all the other thingsand my hobbies tend to shift?
You said you were at a Christmasstore already,
Ben (30:04):
already, so.
Jim (30:05):
Did you buy anything yet?
Ben (30:07):
For you?
No.
Jim (30:09):
What about for your wife?
Ben (30:11):
I mean, we bought ornaments, but that's about it.
Jim (30:14):
So, if you haven't done your Christmas shopping yet,
listeners, be sure to get outthere, hit up some Black Friday
deals for us, enjoy the holidaysat your own pace.
And so do I.
Ben (30:33):
Real men hug and they also make the rules for their holiday
engagements.
Jim (30:39):
and they also allude to Rick Astley.
Ben (30:43):
never gonna give you up.
Jim (30:45):
I'm never gonna let you down, Ben.
I might lie to you, though, ifI'm being
Ben (30:50):
That wouldn't be honest though.
Jim (30:52):
I'm being honest about not being honest.
Ben (30:55):
We wish you a Merry Christmas.
Jim (30:58):
And Happy Thanksgiving.
Ben (31:00):
And a Happy New Year too.
Thanks for listening.
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