Ep. 25 || Cornerstone Concerns: Navigating Christian Nationalism, Inclusivity, and Faith in Politics
December 5, 2024 • 43 mins
In this episode of Real Men Hug, Ben and Jim discuss the controversies surrounding their alma mater, Cornerstone University in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Under the leadership of President Gerson Moreno-Riaño, the university has faced significant challenges, including a faculty vote of no confidence on October 21, 2021, just before his inauguration.* Allegations of resistance to diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts have caused widespread unrest among alumni and students, sparking protests and online calls for reform.** The decision to cut entire departments, like the humanities, and enact mass layoffs has further raised questions about the institution’s direction and commitment to providing a balanced, faith-based education.***
Beyond the campus controversy, Ben and Jim also tackle the broader intersections of politics, faith, and the role of the church in modern society. They reflect on how these institutions can either perpetuate division or act as conduits for unity and justice. Drawing from personal anecdotes and current events, they discuss the challenges of navigating these tensions with authenticity and grace. The conversation delves into the church's responsibility to engage with social and political issues without losing sight of its spiritual mission, as well as how Christians can advocate for inclusivity and truth in polarized times.
This episode challenges listeners to reflect on their personal and collective roles in fostering connection, inclusivity, and positive change, both within their communities and in the broader social and political landscape.
Sources:
*Religion News: Cornerstone University to hold vote of no confidence on incoming president
**The Roys Report: Cornerstone University student protests racial issues under new president
***Current: Cornerstone University fires tenured professors and terminates all humanities programs
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jim (00:01):
Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Jim,
Ben (00:08):
and I'm Ben.
to the show.
Welcome.
Jim (00:18):
That was the most musical intro we've ever done, Ben.
We
Ben (00:22):
It looks pretty nice on the computer screen.
Jim (00:25):
This podcast brought to you in part by us trying to figure
out whether we should have adifferent tagline for the show
or not.
One would argue That it isunintentionally not an inclusive
podcast intro.
Because the whole point of ourshow, we want anybody who feels
like they're an outsider, thatthey don't fit, or that they
(00:50):
have felt silenced in some way,that it's okay to have some of
those difficult conversations.
That's what we're here for.
I actually was meeting, I'vetalked on the show about my
whole experience at Cornerstoneand everything that happened
with that.
I mentioned the guy that firedme and kind of those words
ringing through my head.
Your position has beeneliminated.
(01:12):
Actually met with him overbreakfast not that long ago.
We went to morning bell down thebeltline.
Ben (01:18):
Yeah!
Jim (01:19):
But it was nice to catch up with him a little bit, but it
did just get me thinking aboutsome of the cornerstone stuff.
And he mentioned that he'slistened to our podcast and he
said.
Something to the extent of like,he just loved how we model
having difficult conversationsor tough conversations.
And I thought that's better.
(01:41):
Like, that's really what we dohere, right?
It's not because a podcast formen and the women who love them.
That's just anybody who wants tolisten to our show.
And finds it helpful.
Listen to our show.
Ben (01:53):
Yep, pretty much.
It's about as vanilla as you canget.
Jim (01:56):
So I liked what, what he had to say about modeling, tough
conversations.
And to circle back around alittle bit today, we did want to
talk about the.
Inclusivity piece, and then alsojust how your beliefs kind of
change over time, or for somefolks, how they don't, but maybe
that can be impactful in and ofitself.
(02:18):
I think you get to 40, even ifyou do have the same beliefs,
your beliefs about those beliefsare going to change, right?
Because at some point oranother, you have to say, these
are my beliefs, not just I wasdoing this because, My parents
believed
Ben (02:36):
Exactly.
Mm hmm.
Jim (02:37):
Talking about how those things change over time.
I know that it has a lot for me.
What about for you?
Ben (02:45):
Absolutely.
I met with one of my mentors whohas been in my life now for 20
plus years.
Really since we graduated andeven before graduation from
Cornerstone.
And one of the things that he'sbeen commenting on to me lately
(03:05):
is this idea of deconstruction.
And he said, Ben, deconstructionis this hot topic lately in our
culture.
And he says, I feel like youbegan deconstructing your faith
long before it was even popular.
And he was right.
Like, I really have beentinkering in a way with my faith
(03:29):
of looking at it and saying,this thing that I was handed by
my parents or by, you know,these supposed heroes of the
faith, this isn't working for meanymore.
I need to find a different wayof approaching this because this
isn't working.
It's not suiting me.
It's not furthering anything forme.
(03:52):
I need to let this go.
Jim (03:53):
Yeah.
Ben (03:54):
And there's been so much of that over the last 20 years.
And so I would say, Hands downthat my faith, even my
personality, like who I am at mycore, I've, I've shifted.
I think there's somefoundational pieces of me that
have stayed the same, but as faras like my belief system and how
(04:17):
I view the world and my place init and what my role and purpose
is, all of those things havereally shifted.
And I think Part of that too isjust this idea of inclusivity.
Like I've come to realize thatthe world is a lot bigger than
me and the world is a lot biggerthan my religion.
Jim (04:42):
Sure.
Ben (04:43):
There's an anonymous podcast that I've been listening
to.
I know who the host is, but he'schoosing to remain anonymous
given the subject material ofhis show and his.
and his line of work, whichincludes a lot of interaction
with people of faith.
(05:03):
He's just been very honestly andeven jokingly poking fun at some
elements of Christianity.
And I've been fascinated as Ilistened to it, just because
it's giving me perspective onwhat it's like to not grow up.
in the church or in thecornerstone world.
(05:25):
And I'm just becoming aware theolder I get that my view and
vantage point of things is verydifferent than a lot of people
in this world.
And it's important for me toRecognize that and to realize
(05:46):
that there's more to this worldthan me and my preferences, and
if I truly want what's best foreverybody, well then doesn't
that mean that I also want themto be able to have the
opportunity to pick and choosewhat they feel is best for them
too?
(06:06):
And that's hard.
I mean, to live in an inclusiveworld where we prioritize things
like that wasn't really ever onmy radar as a young adult
growing up.
This idea of diversity,inclusivity, and all these
things.
I feel like I just had such anarrow view of life and that was
(06:28):
reinforced by Cornerstone andother places.
And now that I'm separated fromthose things and outside of
them.
There is that big question markof what do I do with all this?
Jim (06:42):
Yeah.
It is.
I like that word deconstructionbecause it doesn't, I think
people hear that word sometimesand they think, Oh man, Ben and
Jim, they've gone to the wolvesnow.
They're never coming back.
But if you really dig into theword, it's not destruction of
faith.
Ben (07:00):
No, it's not.
Jim (07:01):
In Fact, if anything.
Eventually, I think it can bereally enriching and get you to
the point where you're reallyseeing things with open eyes,
because going back to our lastepisode where we talked about
holidays and how you kind of dothings the same way just because
you always did, but at somepoint or another, you have to
(07:23):
make that holiday your ownthing.
It's the same thing with faith.
I think sometimes we think.
We do things just because that'show we were taught and we don't
realize I know growing up inwhite people church that I live
in a predominantly white areaand so I have to give myself
grace for recognizing that,like, of course, that's going to
(07:45):
be my experience, but like yousaid, that's not everybody
that's not everywhere and wherewe can really get into trouble.
I'll try to keep this one alittle bit anonymous, but
somebody that I, is near anddear to me, one of their biggest
struggles with the church isthat they actually even tried to
have a program that was bringingthe other into the church
(08:07):
specifically, Hey, we'reliterally going to bus in these
kids from the inner city so thatthey can have the same great
experience with church thatwe're having.
And then these kids are comingto the events.
And all of a sudden you, youstart getting these bulletins.
I use air quotes there aboutkids causing trouble and being
(08:29):
disruptive at church.
And I'm not trying to say thatthere doesn't have to be a
certain amount of decorum orwhatever, but it literally was
like a, Hey, these people aremaking us uncomfortable.
And it got to the point wherethe, the program literally shut
down because the church was socold to these individuals that
(08:51):
as soon as the person who wasspearheading it left, poof, the,
the program just disappearedbecause everybody wanted to do.
And it's sound, I think it cansound a little bit mean, but I
guess I kind of want to be thatit is Maybe not intentionally,
but it just turns into like,these are our people.
This makes me happy andcomfortable and I'm not pushed.
(09:13):
And I don't have to think abouthow things impact other people.
Ben (09:17):
Sure.
Jim (09:18):
that goes into the diversity piece.
And I think it goes into the.
Inclusivity piece as well, anddepending on where you fall on
that, and that's where you and Imay even disagree or our
listeners may disagree or not,but I do think the Bible has
some things to say when it comesto, like, gender identity and
sexuality, that Different peopleare going to fall onto the
(09:40):
spectrum.
I think you need to makedecisions as a church and be
consistent in how you applythose things, but at the same
time, recognizing if your churchcan't be accepting of anybody
and everybody, as far ascongregants go, you're doing
something wrong, like.
Everybody should be able to hearthat message.
If that's really, if you're aChristian, like that's like
(10:03):
numero uno that you want peopleto do that.
Like we're supposed to love eachother, but it does get kind of
sticky.
And that's where the wholecornerstone experience, I think
was just a big mess.
And I think those are some waysthat my identity has changed
over time.
I think for a lot of people, youhave to look at the Bible
(10:25):
differently than you did,because it's not just cute
little Bible stories anymore.
When all of a sudden you have afriend who is gay, or you have a
friend who You know, when theywere 19, got pregnant and
they're trying to figure out allthese things are
Ben (10:43):
absolutely.
Jim (10:44):
nuanced.
And so you're looking at whatdoes the Bible say?
And for me, I know I'm not, Iwould say I'm not as close to
God as I was when I was a kid.
Cornerstone.
But at the same time, I think Ihave a much less superficial
faith, if that makes sense.
(11:04):
And I'm not trying to say I,how, how do I say it?
I'm not trying to accuse old Jimof being superficial.
That's not what I'm trying tosay here.
I guess it's just you, you haveto recognize that you are not
right about everything.
Even now, I'm not right abouteverything.
And I think perhaps even somepeople listening to this show, I
(11:26):
think there has a, maybe, maybeI'm wrong.
It's just my experience.
I think sometimes people, it'salmost like a, liberal pendulum.
The more liberal you get, themore.
Correct.
You are in your faith, and Idon't know if I totally agree
with that.
I think if you get so far in theother direction, I don't really
(11:47):
get the point of Christianityanymore
Ben (11:50):
Yeah, yeah.
Jim (11:50):
Because the liberal, and I, I'm not trying to pick on
liberal specifically, but Ijust, maybe it's just my
friends.
A lot of them have gotten a lotmore liberal and I'm not saying
anything's wrong with that, butat some point or another, you're
wrong, right?
Right.
Everybody, what we believe todayis going to be different than
what people believe 20 yearsfrom now.
And I think people say, well,yeah, but I'm trying to be on
(12:11):
the right side of the historyand I'm growing and I'm missing
that, but I don't know.
I feel like sometimes there arethings that are right today and
they're right tomorrow andthey're going to continue being
right until the end of time.
Just because.
Other people don't think thesame way.
There has to be meets and boundsto everything, and if you don't
(12:32):
have that standard to live by,you're just constantly moving
and swaying with whatever themost popular thing is at the
time.
And that can be reallydangerous, because historically
we have seen what the popularopinion has done sometimes to
hugely catastrophic effect,including in religious circles.
(12:56):
Allah, the crusades.
I mean, religion sometimes isthe worst offender when it comes
to the most popular thing.
So too, though, we've talked alot about tribalism in our
culture today.
I think we risk that same thingwhen we just follow whatever is
popular.
(13:16):
Do you have to have an anchorsomewhere?
Or do you just try to pin thetail on the donkey of
spirituality, chasing after thedonkey that is whatever,
whatever society is saying ispopular right now.
Ben (13:31):
I think there's a middle ground there that perhaps
you're.
Description of the two sides ismissing, and I think I would
fall somewhere in between thetwo that you described.
Do you remember Mike Vendry?
Yeah.
Jim (13:45):
Yeah,
Ben (13:46):
Mike has a beautiful way of phrasing this.
He looks at it from theperspective of, are you moving
closer to Christ?
And he calls it the Jewishperspective.
There's something very Jewishabout that mentality of this
idea of moving in the directiontowards Christ.
(14:09):
And So that's kind of a veryloose, it feels a little loosey
goosey, but at the same time Ifind a lot of, merit in that
view.
if that's your, your guidepost,if you are trying to become more
like Christ and that's thebenchmark, then It does leave
(14:31):
some open dialogue around topicslike sexuality, like how would
Christ respond to somebody whois living in that lifestyle?
And there's so much nuance.
And I think for me, having thatperspective of not looking at
issues from just, well, whatdoes the Bible say, but looking
at it from the perspective of,okay, well, is this person
(14:55):
moving closer in the directionof Christ, in the direction of
the way, or are they moving inthe opposite direction?
Somehow just that little nuancedshift in perspective has helped
me wrestle with a lot of theseissues of inclusivity.
And so then it becomes lessabout being right and more about
(15:19):
Just be, are you heading in theright direction?
Being more directionallyoriented than just issue
oriented.
Jim (15:27):
I love that.
One of the things, if you're notlike a lifelong Christian or
it's new to you, there was thisgroup called the Pharisees that
like, Jesus, no boy, no, didn'tlike them because they were all
about the laws and not aboutlike the people.
The whole point of why they weredoing some of those things.
So I love what you have to sayabout like, okay, am I going in
(15:48):
the right direction?
Because when you're just lookingat the Bible and the rules of
the Bible and what it says, itcan get really easy to forget to
look at the person that whateverthat alleged issue.
Is addressing at the end of theday, because when you go back to
the old, what would Jesus do?
(16:08):
You know, where the bracelet
Ben (16:10):
Yep, WWJD.
And
Jim (16:12):
it goes back to that, you know, we're not pulling out a
Bible to try to figure out howright or wrong they are at the
end of the day.
Like that's still somebody whoneeds your love.
That's still somebody who needsyour acceptance and appreciation
and all that kind of stuff.
So they should feel Welcomed byyou, they should feel loved by
you before they feel judged byyou, if that should so desire.
(16:38):
And that's where, to me, thatnuance comes even outside of
that issue.
I do think sometimes people needto be told, Hey, the thing that
you're doing is Is a bad thingwhen a husband is cheating on
his wife.
Hey dude, the thing that you'redoing is a bad thing.
When the drugs that you arepartaking in are tearing your
family apart.
(16:59):
When your gambling problem hasgotten to the point where your
house is being foreclosed on.
I sure hope that I was the guywho said way before you got to
that point.
Hey, dude.
You gotta stop what you'redoing.
I'm gonna drop a two letter wordbomb on you.
Christian nationalism.
(17:22):
You guys don't see the look ofdisgust
Ben (17:26):
Yeah,
Jim (17:26):
on Ben's face
Ben (17:27):
it's, it's awful.
It's, well this most recentlycame up for me in my spiritual
direction certification class.
This class is about as oppositeas you can get from my childhood
faith experiences.
I grew up going to church wherewe sang in Sunday school the
(17:52):
song called, I'm in the Lord'sarmy.
Yes, sir.
I will never shoot theartillery, whatever.
You know that song.
Jim (18:01):
I do.
Ben (18:02):
Yeah.
Like grew up singing that.
And
Jim (18:04):
Ride in the Calvary.
Ben (18:06):
Yeah, like, grew up with those kinds of military themed
songs.
I went to college and like youwas probably, you were probably
exposed to Wild at Heart, thiswhole Braveheart inspired, idea
of what masculinity is.
Let's see, there's always justthis warrior mentality that
(18:29):
seems to be so interwoven into,you Western Christianity and
it's like you encounter thisChristian nationalism.
at its deepest level of faithhere in our culture, especially
in West Michigan.
And so that was my upbringing.
(18:49):
And now as a 40 year old who'sin some ways relearning bits of
faith here and there, I'm takingthe spiritual direction program.
And the reason I chose theprogram that I'm in is because
they have remained true to theirclassical, foundation in Christ,
(19:10):
which there are programs evenlocally that have not maintained
that.
They've kind of drifted fromChrist as the center, Christ as
the source of life, Christ is nolonger the way, the truth, and
the life.
He's a way, a truth, a life.
(19:30):
I couldn't, reckon with that.
And so I found a program thatstill had Christ at the center.
And even in this program, it hasbeen a transformational
experience because it's at theopposite end of that Christian
nationalism spectrum.
My experience with Christiannationalism is one of, I grew up
(19:53):
with that and that was verycentral and core in my
understanding of what faith was.
Like in, in order to be a Christfollower, you have to be
zealous.
You have to be loud.
You have to be all of thosethings, a warrior in the idea
that you could be a Christfollower and be contemplative
(20:17):
and, and sit with people andencounter God in the quiet
moments and, and not only that,but then help other people do
the same after they go throughlife altering circumstances,
being able to sit with people intheir pain.
Like that never struck me aseven being something that a
(20:41):
Christian could do.
So I feel like That's my verypersonal example of why I
dislike Christian nationalism somuch because it's what our
culture serves up in abundanceand it's a model that works
numerically and it's a messagethat's loud and gets people
(21:02):
fired up but it leaves themempty and broken inside.
Jim (21:07):
And it's just not biblical.
I mean, they're, where in theBible were, did they have like
flags at the front of theirchurch and like telling people
who, which, which Roman emperorto vote for and all that kind of
stuff.
I, I think, you know, you, atthe end of the day, you need to
vote for who you think is goingto do the best thing for the
country.
I think values are a big part ofthat for sure as well, but you
(21:29):
know, I, going back to thecornerstone thing, it just,
okay.
I.
Honestly, don't some people, Ithink, just hated that they had
anybody political on campus atall.
I don't know if I have as muchof a problem with that.
I think my problem is more thatI am 100 percent confident that
they won't have like ademocratic, maybe that's a
(21:49):
little unfair.
I, I feel like maybe I readsomewhere that they invited so
and so.
It's just tough because it doesfeel an awful lot like you're,
you're picking a side,especially given the recent
history of cornerstone, where itreally feels, I don't know what
(22:10):
word to use other than aninquisition.
Where it's literally like personafter person inviting them into
your office or going into theiroffice to make sure that they
had the right group think, whatdo you think about D E I, what
do you think about when it comesto some of this inclusivity
(22:31):
stuff, what do you think aboutwhen it comes to that?
And I just feel like the schoolwent so far Backwards with some
of that kind of stuff.
And again, I jumped back to thatwhole like spectrum.
I'm not saying that the goal isto get more or less liberal, but
it just feels like throwing outthe baby with the bath water to
(22:53):
me that you might not like what.
I, I hate even saying this.
I'm going to apologize.
It's shorthand, but you mightnot like what Fox News has told
you to that DEI is and all ofits badness.
But what does it actually meanto the people who are writing
(23:14):
those papers or trying toimplement those policies?
In a school environment, there'sa big difference between the
big, scary, dark thing thatthese news are literally making
a profit, making you terrifiedover versus, hey, yes, it's
there's D.
E.
I.
Somewhere in the paper becausethere's the That's the
(23:36):
terminology of the day, but whatI'm trying to do is make sure
that the black student here atCornerstone Actually gets seen
and that we're listening whenthey're talking about The overt
racism that they haveexperienced from other students
here at this guy.
I don't see a problem with thatBen I don't know about you, but
to just say well, that's DEI andthrow anybody out the door that
(24:00):
Feels that way and I, I knowsome of these people personally,
I'm sorry, again, not namingnames, but one of the most
conservative people that I know,the sweetest people that I knew
at my time there was let gobecause she was an advocate for
diversity.
(24:20):
Like, it just seems like such abackwards thing
Ben (24:24):
It...
it is!
Jim (24:26):
That the school is doing.
Like it, it.
It makes me sick, and I honestlythink I can see it with more
nuance than a lot of people inspite of being let go by this
institution.
I understand that when a newpresident comes in, you're going
to clean some house.
You're going to step on sometoes.
(24:46):
Some people are going to let go,that you're not going to agree
with, and it may have even beena mistake, but you have to
surround yourself with thepeople that you trust, that you
know, that you have the samevision, but a good president is
going to do that.
In a different way, it'scertainly not going to be an
inquisition, and you'recertainly not going to
literally, literally rewrite thehandbook so that we can fire all
(25:10):
the tenured professors in theentire humanities department.
Are you kidding me?
It's disgusting.
I say that while alsorecognizing schools got to make
money, right?
Some of what they're doing.
I think is sort of theinevitability of what you have
to do to survive.
There are going to be somemajors if they're not making a
(25:33):
ton of money, but nursing is,and that's the thing that's
going to make you more money.
Hard decisions do have tohappen.
So I think.
Some things people are beatingup the new president for
literally every single thing hedoes.
Some of them are just businessdecisions.
The school might actually bebetter off from a financial
(25:53):
standpoint than it was before.
Dr.
Stoll had to make some toughdecisions, too, when it came to
some financial things.
But to me, the difference was,like you said before, I felt
like he was bringing the schoolcloser to Christ.
Ben (26:10):
Yes.
Jim (26:12):
And I feel like the new president is bringing the school
closer to Christian
Ben (26:18):
Absolutely.
Jim (26:19):
And that is my problem.
Ben (26:21):
Absolutely.
Jim (26:22):
it makes me embarrassed to be an alumnus of Cornerstone
University.
It really does.
Ben (26:30):
I don't display my diploma anymore.
Like I just don't really findmuch value in it.
I've thought about just not evenlisting it on my LinkedIn
profile.
I haven't gone that far, butyeah, it's, it's so hard.
one of my earliest memories ofDEI and inclusivity.
(26:51):
Is from Cornerstone.
There was a fellow student, lizwas her name.
She was one of a handful ofblack students on campus.
She was active and studentchapel and dance and other
various things.
In fact, she's A lot like mydaughter today.
(27:12):
And I learned so much from beingfriends with Liz.
There was a time where I wasleading a mission trip to Los
Angeles.
There were some discussionsbetween me and some faculty at
Cornerstone about students whoshould go on this trip.
People would mention, you shouldget Liz to go.
(27:32):
I didn't realize it until Lizpointed it out to me and made it
so obvious for me.
The main reasons why Cornerstonewanted Liz on this trip was
optics.
Because we're going to an urbanarea, so you should probably
have a black student go withyou.
When I talked with Liz, I waslike, well, why wouldn't you go
on this trip?
(27:53):
You'd be perfect for it.
She would just very graciouslypoint out to me You're saying
that because I'm black.
If I was sitting here and Iwasn't black, would you be
saying those same liz was hername.
She was one of a handful ofblack students on campus.
She was active and studentchapel and dance and other
(28:15):
various things.
In fact, she's A lot like mydaughter today.
And I learned so much from beingfriends with Liz.
There was a time where I wasleading a mission trip to Los
Angeles.
There were some discussionsbetween me and some faculty at
Cornerstone about students whoshould go on this trip.
(28:38):
People would mention, you shouldget Liz to go.
The main reason why.
I didn't realize it until Lizpointed it out to me and made it
so obvious for me.
The main reasons why Cornerstonewanted Liz on this trip was
optics.
Because we're going to an urbanarea, so you should probably
have a black student go withyou.
(29:00):
When I talked with Liz, I waslike, well, why wouldn't you go
on this trip?
You'd be perfect for it.
She would just very graciouslypoint out to me You're saying
that because I'm black.
If I was sitting here and Iwasn't black, would you be
saying those same things to me?
And I had to stop and thinkabout it.
Ooh.
Yikes, I don't know that Iwould.
(29:22):
I'm basing my entire perspectiveof your participation on this
trip on you being black.
That's not fair.
That was a turning point in mylife that I look back on often.
I've reached out to Liz a coupleof times and I've just said
thank you for your honesty inthat moment.
(29:45):
if she wouldn't have saidanything, I don't think I would
have ever got it because in mymind it was just this thought of
Well, she's black.
We're going to LA.
There's a lot of black peoplethere.
She should come with us.
I tokenized her.
I cheapened Liz to herblackness.
And that was all that matteredin that moment.
(30:06):
It was just Optics, it'll lookgood if she's there.
Jim (30:10):
Optics.
Every school is going to have tofall one way or another to what
they believe while stillrecognizing our job is to.
Be loving, be accepting andfiguring out how we can draw
people closer to Christ.
It's tough.
I acknowledge that it's not ascut and dried.
To me, I'm sorry.
It's pretty stinking clear.
(30:32):
The direction that Cornerstonehas decided to go with the
institution of this newpresident is it's whole hog
Christian nationalism.
It's tough being a Christianliberal arts institution because
the point with liberal arts.
Is you're supposed to teach allthe things, right?
(30:53):
You're supposed to teachdifferent viewpoints.
You're supposed to expose peoplewith different worldviews to
your own.
And it gets more nuanced, themore you get on some of these
frontline issues that we haven'tfigured out what to do with.
But man, maybe pull that plankout of your eyes guys, because
what you're doing is Christiannationalism.
Ben (31:13):
Mm hmm.
Jim (31:14):
Is that too harsh?
Ben (31:15):
I don't think it is.
When you are so concerned withbringing in chapel speakers and
having wisdom conventions andhaving vice presidential
candidates and secret service onyour roof and all of these
things, you are now courtingChristian nationalism without
(31:38):
any doubt.
You can't even question it atthat point.
Your faith is now equated withpower and power in government.
That is precisely the thing thatJesus Came to abolish.
There were so many people backin the day of Jesus who were
(31:58):
wanting the Savior that wasgoing to give them the political
freedom.
The Jews wanted the ConqueringKing they wanted the Christian
nationalist Savior Jesus, butthat's not who he was.
He was a the humble savior whocame and delivered his people
and healed and did miracles andshook the jews to their core
(32:22):
because he's proclaiming to bethe messiah and all these things
and he was expected to be thischristian nationalist savior and
that's not at all who he was andi feel like that's what
cornerstone is trying to do aswell.
You're moving so far away fromwho Jesus is and was and you're
(32:45):
trading him for this uglyChristian nationalism that sure
might draw some crowds and mightgain some power here on earth.
But what's your, what's your endgame?
It's scary.
Jim (33:01):
It's scary for sure.
I know some folks who are goingto cornerstone that are still
having a good experience there.
God can still use the peoplethat are currently at the
institution.
Doesn't mean that.
Everybody is bad.
That's there.
I don't know how you'd beliberal arts without a
humanities department.
Honestly, that seems problematicto me.
(33:23):
But there are still good peoplethere.
And as much as I disagree withthe president's Opinions on a
lot of things.
I do think that he's trying todo right by the school and God
can use anybody.
I think we get so worked upabout politics, but at the end
(33:43):
of the day, God's going to God,God's going to do the God
things, regardless of who ourpresident is or isn't, there can
be positives and negatives, ofone president over another.
It's interesting.
I saw a post from somebody.
It was almost like Trump wassort of a second coming kind of
flavor to it and how, like Godhas ordained Trump to come and
(34:08):
do all these different for usbecause like, he's a Christian.
And at the end of the day, andI'm thinking like, I mean,
Biden's Catholic and I'm prettysure he goes to church more than
Trump does in that he doesn't,really.
So why couldn't God also useBiden to do some of those
things?
Why is just that it can God onlyuse Republicans to do his will?
(34:31):
I, It just seems a littlebizarre to me when you get that
wrapped up in it, that you startlike quoting scripture over
chosen.
And I don't mean to beat up,I've, I've voted Republican most
of my life.
And I still think that a lot ofthe tenants are sound, but.
When you get to a point, it'salmost start sounding like a
(34:55):
deity and almost idolatry.
Really?
I got a problem with
Ben (35:00):
Absolutely.
I have a huge problem with theline of thinking that goes So
Well, look at how God used KingDavid in the Bible.
King David was a womanizer, andhe was a murderer, and he was
this terrible person, but Godstill used him.
God can use Donald Trump, too.
that was it.
(35:20):
King David.
Yep.
And I just want to be like,guys, come on.
You are missing the point.
If you can make that kind of alogical jump, I question your
faith commitment here becauselet's boil this down.
Psalm 51, David has this momentof complete and utter brokenness
(35:44):
before God where he cries out inrepentance and says, I was
wrong.
Words that we'll never hear ourincoming president say.
You cannot compare Donald Trumpto King David.
Jim (36:05):
I mean, you can.
Ben (36:06):
You can, but you're wrong.
Maybe, but, but to say that Godcan use Donald Trump the same
way he used King David, I thinkthat's really sketchy theology.
Yes, Donald Trump, if he were tosurrender his life and allow the
(36:27):
Spirit to do the same work thatDavid allowed the Spirit to do
in him, absolutely, God coulduse Donald Trump.
But to say that just because Godused King David, God can use
Donald Trump too, is a logicaljump I just can't make in my
theology because it skips overthat Critical part of repentance
(36:50):
like yes, if donald repentsAbsolutely, but till then like
dude's got some work to do.
Jim (36:57):
And it's a false equivalence because we're not
the kingdom of Israel.
If anything, we're the kingdomof Rome and King David is not in
the picture here.
You know that we're talkingabout Julius Caesar, not King
David at this point.
So it is, it's a falseequivalency.
We're not, we're not a Christiannation.
I mean, we, we certainly werefounded on a lot of those Judeo
(37:20):
Christian principles, Butliterally we are here because we
were trying to escape the churchof England and them trying to
tell us what to do.
And now, ironically, we're alllike, let's have somebody who
tells us what to do with ourfaith.
So it's, it's a different thing.
I think God can use us in spiteof whoever the ruler happens to
(37:42):
be at the time, whether that's aRepublican or a Democrat.
We're being like awful harsh, tobe clear.
My issue is not with.
Donald Trump, specifically theperson, it's rather people's
reaction.
It's when we get to the point ofidolatry, that we can't even see
the cracks in the armor, that wecan't see, hey, this person's
(38:03):
not perfect.
And that's a problem that maybethis multimillionaire dude might
do some things that help him andnot necessarily me as a person.
Maybe you still do vote for theguy, but come on, it really is.
Idolatry is the word.
I want to fall on at this pointwhen it comes to that.
Ben (38:23):
It's idolatry, but then there's also this element of we
put all of our eggs in thebasket of the president and I
just don't feel like that'snecessary.
whether I have a good day or abad day doesn't depend on who's
in the White House.
It doesn't matter.
What makes today good or bad hasfar less to do with who's in the
(38:45):
White House and far more to dowith me and how I'm showing up
in my world and in my day to daylived experience.
Jim (38:53):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Let's just say it outright thatit does feel very different for
people in minority groups forpeople who do feel like maybe
they're not being seen or heard.
It's, it's a much tougher day.
Ben (39:07):
the same principle applies, regardless of who's in the White
House.
It doesn't give me an excuse tonot care for them or not work to
include them.
That's not the president's work.
That's my work.
And I think, again, we put somuch in the president's basket
that perhaps we should put it inour own basket.
(39:31):
Instead of expecting thepresident to deliver policies
and hold views similar to us, Ithink we instead should take
that energy and channel it intous being true to ourselves and
living in such a way that weadvocate for the things that we
feel the president should beadvocating for and that we make
(39:53):
a difference in the lives ofthose that are important
Jim (39:57):
Absolutely.
Be the change that you want tosee in the world.
Ben (40:01):
Don't expect, or wait around for the president to do
it for you because you're gonnabe waiting for a long time.
Yeah.
Jim (40:08):
And honestly, I think we have so much power, right?
Who is going to care for thepoor?
Who's going to care for theelderly?
Who's going to care for theminority groups?
Who's going to care for theleast of these among us?
Ben (40:21):
The church.
Jim (40:22):
The church.
And so if we're so concernedwith who the president is going
to be, we get to be the ones whoare filling in the gaps that the
government isn't doing.
Ben (40:33):
Yeah
Jim (40:34):
So you get to be the one, if you want to donate your time
or money to something that isnear and dear to your heart, the
church has way more leverage tomake change, especially if
you're a Republican, most of theRepublicans, myself included,
think that the government,there's a lot of waste.
There's a lot ofdisorganization.
(40:55):
We have way more power outsideof the ballot box to make a
difference in this country withthe organizations that we join
and donate our time and moneyto.
So let's focus more money onthat because we really could
change this country regardless.
(41:15):
Of who's in power, doesn'tmatter who the Julius Caesar is,
what are we doing as members ofthe capital C church to make
sure that we are beinginclusive, to make sure that we
are caring for the least ofthese, we have that power.
We get to step into that spaceand even on a personal level
(41:40):
from me to you, to my neighbor,I can make a difference in what
I do.
Ben (41:45):
Absolutely.
Well, until we have some morelibertarian options on the
ballot.
I am a lone duck out there.
Justin Amash.
I was really hoping you'd be onthe ticket this
Jim (41:57):
oh, I really liked Justin Amash.
He got run out.
He got run out because he saidmaybe we should at least just
investigate Trump.
He didn't even say we shouldindict him, just let's clear his
name, and that's literally howhe got run out of the Republican
Party.
Ben (42:16):
Then he went independent Libertarian anyway I do not
align with republican ordemocrat.
I am Certainly more libertarianthan anything
Jim (42:28):
there are more independents today than there ever were.
So you're, you're not alone.
I think a lot of our listenersare falling into that category
as well.
there are other people out therethat feel the same way.
It's just, those other voicesare so loud that.
We don't always speak up and saysomething.
Let your voice be heard, whetherit's in the ballot box, whether
(42:51):
it's in what you do from day today, or honestly with the
cornerstone thing, I'm not surewhat to do about that, but I'm
not going to keep my opinions tomyself about that.
Just not.
So there you go.
This definitely, probably ourmost polarizing episode we have
ever done.
So thanks for listening guys.
(43:15):
Any complaints can go to Ben atBen mail.
com.
Ben (43:21):
to, Cornerstone University 1001 No, just
Jim (43:25):
Wow.
Busting out the address.
Ben (43:29):
It's on Google.
Jim (43:30):
it's on Google.
You just doxxed Cornerstone.
Ben (43:35):
Real men hug, but they also dox their alma mater.
Jim (43:39):
Dox their alma mater, that's right.
Oh man, like I said, still somegood stuff, don't get me wrong.
Still some great people.
Ben (43:46):
Mm hmm.
Jim (43:47):
I still have some near and dear memories of my time at
Cornerstone.
I hope they can right the shipin the right way.
Ben (43:56):
I hope so.
Jim (43:58):
Thanks for listening, everybody.
Ben (44:00):
We'll see you next time on real men hug.
Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Jim,
Ben (00:08):
and I'm Ben.
to the show.
Welcome.
Jim (00:18):
That was the most musical intro we've ever done, Ben.
We
Ben (00:22):
It looks pretty nice on the computer screen.
Jim (00:25):
This podcast brought to you in part by us trying to figure
out whether we should have adifferent tagline for the show
or not.
One would argue That it isunintentionally not an inclusive
podcast intro.
Because the whole point of ourshow, we want anybody who feels
like they're an outsider, thatthey don't fit, or that they
(00:50):
have felt silenced in some way,that it's okay to have some of
those difficult conversations.
That's what we're here for.
I actually was meeting, I'vetalked on the show about my
whole experience at Cornerstoneand everything that happened
with that.
I mentioned the guy that firedme and kind of those words
ringing through my head.
Your position has beeneliminated.
(01:12):
Actually met with him overbreakfast not that long ago.
We went to morning bell down thebeltline.
Ben (01:18):
Yeah!
Jim (01:19):
But it was nice to catch up with him a little bit, but it
did just get me thinking aboutsome of the cornerstone stuff.
And he mentioned that he'slistened to our podcast and he
said.
Something to the extent of like,he just loved how we model
having difficult conversationsor tough conversations.
And I thought that's better.
(01:41):
Like, that's really what we dohere, right?
It's not because a podcast formen and the women who love them.
That's just anybody who wants tolisten to our show.
And finds it helpful.
Listen to our show.
Ben (01:53):
Yep, pretty much.
It's about as vanilla as you canget.
Jim (01:56):
So I liked what, what he had to say about modeling, tough
conversations.
And to circle back around alittle bit today, we did want to
talk about the.
Inclusivity piece, and then alsojust how your beliefs kind of
change over time, or for somefolks, how they don't, but maybe
that can be impactful in and ofitself.
(02:18):
I think you get to 40, even ifyou do have the same beliefs,
your beliefs about those beliefsare going to change, right?
Because at some point oranother, you have to say, these
are my beliefs, not just I wasdoing this because, My parents
believed
Ben (02:36):
Exactly.
Mm hmm.
Jim (02:37):
Talking about how those things change over time.
I know that it has a lot for me.
What about for you?
Ben (02:45):
Absolutely.
I met with one of my mentors whohas been in my life now for 20
plus years.
Really since we graduated andeven before graduation from
Cornerstone.
And one of the things that he'sbeen commenting on to me lately
(03:05):
is this idea of deconstruction.
And he said, Ben, deconstructionis this hot topic lately in our
culture.
And he says, I feel like youbegan deconstructing your faith
long before it was even popular.
And he was right.
Like, I really have beentinkering in a way with my faith
(03:29):
of looking at it and saying,this thing that I was handed by
my parents or by, you know,these supposed heroes of the
faith, this isn't working for meanymore.
I need to find a different wayof approaching this because this
isn't working.
It's not suiting me.
It's not furthering anything forme.
(03:52):
I need to let this go.
Jim (03:53):
Yeah.
Ben (03:54):
And there's been so much of that over the last 20 years.
And so I would say, Hands downthat my faith, even my
personality, like who I am at mycore, I've, I've shifted.
I think there's somefoundational pieces of me that
have stayed the same, but as faras like my belief system and how
(04:17):
I view the world and my place init and what my role and purpose
is, all of those things havereally shifted.
And I think Part of that too isjust this idea of inclusivity.
Like I've come to realize thatthe world is a lot bigger than
me and the world is a lot biggerthan my religion.
Jim (04:42):
Sure.
Ben (04:43):
There's an anonymous podcast that I've been listening
to.
I know who the host is, but he'schoosing to remain anonymous
given the subject material ofhis show and his.
and his line of work, whichincludes a lot of interaction
with people of faith.
(05:03):
He's just been very honestly andeven jokingly poking fun at some
elements of Christianity.
And I've been fascinated as Ilistened to it, just because
it's giving me perspective onwhat it's like to not grow up.
in the church or in thecornerstone world.
(05:25):
And I'm just becoming aware theolder I get that my view and
vantage point of things is verydifferent than a lot of people
in this world.
And it's important for me toRecognize that and to realize
(05:46):
that there's more to this worldthan me and my preferences, and
if I truly want what's best foreverybody, well then doesn't
that mean that I also want themto be able to have the
opportunity to pick and choosewhat they feel is best for them
too?
(06:06):
And that's hard.
I mean, to live in an inclusiveworld where we prioritize things
like that wasn't really ever onmy radar as a young adult
growing up.
This idea of diversity,inclusivity, and all these
things.
I feel like I just had such anarrow view of life and that was
(06:28):
reinforced by Cornerstone andother places.
And now that I'm separated fromthose things and outside of
them.
There is that big question markof what do I do with all this?
Jim (06:42):
Yeah.
It is.
I like that word deconstructionbecause it doesn't, I think
people hear that word sometimesand they think, Oh man, Ben and
Jim, they've gone to the wolvesnow.
They're never coming back.
But if you really dig into theword, it's not destruction of
faith.
Ben (07:00):
No, it's not.
Jim (07:01):
In Fact, if anything.
Eventually, I think it can bereally enriching and get you to
the point where you're reallyseeing things with open eyes,
because going back to our lastepisode where we talked about
holidays and how you kind of dothings the same way just because
you always did, but at somepoint or another, you have to
(07:23):
make that holiday your ownthing.
It's the same thing with faith.
I think sometimes we think.
We do things just because that'show we were taught and we don't
realize I know growing up inwhite people church that I live
in a predominantly white areaand so I have to give myself
grace for recognizing that,like, of course, that's going to
(07:45):
be my experience, but like yousaid, that's not everybody
that's not everywhere and wherewe can really get into trouble.
I'll try to keep this one alittle bit anonymous, but
somebody that I, is near anddear to me, one of their biggest
struggles with the church isthat they actually even tried to
have a program that was bringingthe other into the church
(08:07):
specifically, Hey, we'reliterally going to bus in these
kids from the inner city so thatthey can have the same great
experience with church thatwe're having.
And then these kids are comingto the events.
And all of a sudden you, youstart getting these bulletins.
I use air quotes there aboutkids causing trouble and being
(08:29):
disruptive at church.
And I'm not trying to say thatthere doesn't have to be a
certain amount of decorum orwhatever, but it literally was
like a, Hey, these people aremaking us uncomfortable.
And it got to the point wherethe, the program literally shut
down because the church was socold to these individuals that
(08:51):
as soon as the person who wasspearheading it left, poof, the,
the program just disappearedbecause everybody wanted to do.
And it's sound, I think it cansound a little bit mean, but I
guess I kind of want to be thatit is Maybe not intentionally,
but it just turns into like,these are our people.
This makes me happy andcomfortable and I'm not pushed.
(09:13):
And I don't have to think abouthow things impact other people.
Ben (09:17):
Sure.
Jim (09:18):
that goes into the diversity piece.
And I think it goes into the.
Inclusivity piece as well, anddepending on where you fall on
that, and that's where you and Imay even disagree or our
listeners may disagree or not,but I do think the Bible has
some things to say when it comesto, like, gender identity and
sexuality, that Different peopleare going to fall onto the
(09:40):
spectrum.
I think you need to makedecisions as a church and be
consistent in how you applythose things, but at the same
time, recognizing if your churchcan't be accepting of anybody
and everybody, as far ascongregants go, you're doing
something wrong, like.
Everybody should be able to hearthat message.
If that's really, if you're aChristian, like that's like
(10:03):
numero uno that you want peopleto do that.
Like we're supposed to love eachother, but it does get kind of
sticky.
And that's where the wholecornerstone experience, I think
was just a big mess.
And I think those are some waysthat my identity has changed
over time.
I think for a lot of people, youhave to look at the Bible
(10:25):
differently than you did,because it's not just cute
little Bible stories anymore.
When all of a sudden you have afriend who is gay, or you have a
friend who You know, when theywere 19, got pregnant and
they're trying to figure out allthese things are
Ben (10:43):
absolutely.
Jim (10:44):
nuanced.
And so you're looking at whatdoes the Bible say?
And for me, I know I'm not, Iwould say I'm not as close to
God as I was when I was a kid.
Cornerstone.
But at the same time, I think Ihave a much less superficial
faith, if that makes sense.
(11:04):
And I'm not trying to say I,how, how do I say it?
I'm not trying to accuse old Jimof being superficial.
That's not what I'm trying tosay here.
I guess it's just you, you haveto recognize that you are not
right about everything.
Even now, I'm not right abouteverything.
And I think perhaps even somepeople listening to this show, I
(11:26):
think there has a, maybe, maybeI'm wrong.
It's just my experience.
I think sometimes people, it'salmost like a, liberal pendulum.
The more liberal you get, themore.
Correct.
You are in your faith, and Idon't know if I totally agree
with that.
I think if you get so far in theother direction, I don't really
(11:47):
get the point of Christianityanymore
Ben (11:50):
Yeah, yeah.
Jim (11:50):
Because the liberal, and I, I'm not trying to pick on
liberal specifically, but Ijust, maybe it's just my
friends.
A lot of them have gotten a lotmore liberal and I'm not saying
anything's wrong with that, butat some point or another, you're
wrong, right?
Right.
Everybody, what we believe todayis going to be different than
what people believe 20 yearsfrom now.
And I think people say, well,yeah, but I'm trying to be on
(12:11):
the right side of the historyand I'm growing and I'm missing
that, but I don't know.
I feel like sometimes there arethings that are right today and
they're right tomorrow andthey're going to continue being
right until the end of time.
Just because.
Other people don't think thesame way.
There has to be meets and boundsto everything, and if you don't
(12:32):
have that standard to live by,you're just constantly moving
and swaying with whatever themost popular thing is at the
time.
And that can be reallydangerous, because historically
we have seen what the popularopinion has done sometimes to
hugely catastrophic effect,including in religious circles.
(12:56):
Allah, the crusades.
I mean, religion sometimes isthe worst offender when it comes
to the most popular thing.
So too, though, we've talked alot about tribalism in our
culture today.
I think we risk that same thingwhen we just follow whatever is
popular.
(13:16):
Do you have to have an anchorsomewhere?
Or do you just try to pin thetail on the donkey of
spirituality, chasing after thedonkey that is whatever,
whatever society is saying ispopular right now.
Ben (13:31):
I think there's a middle ground there that perhaps
you're.
Description of the two sides ismissing, and I think I would
fall somewhere in between thetwo that you described.
Do you remember Mike Vendry?
Yeah.
Jim (13:45):
Yeah,
Ben (13:46):
Mike has a beautiful way of phrasing this.
He looks at it from theperspective of, are you moving
closer to Christ?
And he calls it the Jewishperspective.
There's something very Jewishabout that mentality of this
idea of moving in the directiontowards Christ.
(14:09):
And So that's kind of a veryloose, it feels a little loosey
goosey, but at the same time Ifind a lot of, merit in that
view.
if that's your, your guidepost,if you are trying to become more
like Christ and that's thebenchmark, then It does leave
(14:31):
some open dialogue around topicslike sexuality, like how would
Christ respond to somebody whois living in that lifestyle?
And there's so much nuance.
And I think for me, having thatperspective of not looking at
issues from just, well, whatdoes the Bible say, but looking
at it from the perspective of,okay, well, is this person
(14:55):
moving closer in the directionof Christ, in the direction of
the way, or are they moving inthe opposite direction?
Somehow just that little nuancedshift in perspective has helped
me wrestle with a lot of theseissues of inclusivity.
And so then it becomes lessabout being right and more about
(15:19):
Just be, are you heading in theright direction?
Being more directionallyoriented than just issue
oriented.
Jim (15:27):
I love that.
One of the things, if you're notlike a lifelong Christian or
it's new to you, there was thisgroup called the Pharisees that
like, Jesus, no boy, no, didn'tlike them because they were all
about the laws and not aboutlike the people.
The whole point of why they weredoing some of those things.
So I love what you have to sayabout like, okay, am I going in
(15:48):
the right direction?
Because when you're just lookingat the Bible and the rules of
the Bible and what it says, itcan get really easy to forget to
look at the person that whateverthat alleged issue.
Is addressing at the end of theday, because when you go back to
the old, what would Jesus do?
(16:08):
You know, where the bracelet
Ben (16:10):
Yep, WWJD.
And
Jim (16:12):
it goes back to that, you know, we're not pulling out a
Bible to try to figure out howright or wrong they are at the
end of the day.
Like that's still somebody whoneeds your love.
That's still somebody who needsyour acceptance and appreciation
and all that kind of stuff.
So they should feel Welcomed byyou, they should feel loved by
you before they feel judged byyou, if that should so desire.
(16:38):
And that's where, to me, thatnuance comes even outside of
that issue.
I do think sometimes people needto be told, Hey, the thing that
you're doing is Is a bad thingwhen a husband is cheating on
his wife.
Hey dude, the thing that you'redoing is a bad thing.
When the drugs that you arepartaking in are tearing your
family apart.
(16:59):
When your gambling problem hasgotten to the point where your
house is being foreclosed on.
I sure hope that I was the guywho said way before you got to
that point.
Hey, dude.
You gotta stop what you'redoing.
I'm gonna drop a two letter wordbomb on you.
Christian nationalism.
(17:22):
You guys don't see the look ofdisgust
Ben (17:26):
Yeah,
Jim (17:26):
on Ben's face
Ben (17:27):
it's, it's awful.
It's, well this most recentlycame up for me in my spiritual
direction certification class.
This class is about as oppositeas you can get from my childhood
faith experiences.
I grew up going to church wherewe sang in Sunday school the
(17:52):
song called, I'm in the Lord'sarmy.
Yes, sir.
I will never shoot theartillery, whatever.
You know that song.
Jim (18:01):
I do.
Ben (18:02):
Yeah.
Like grew up singing that.
And
Jim (18:04):
Ride in the Calvary.
Ben (18:06):
Yeah, like, grew up with those kinds of military themed
songs.
I went to college and like youwas probably, you were probably
exposed to Wild at Heart, thiswhole Braveheart inspired, idea
of what masculinity is.
Let's see, there's always justthis warrior mentality that
(18:29):
seems to be so interwoven into,you Western Christianity and
it's like you encounter thisChristian nationalism.
at its deepest level of faithhere in our culture, especially
in West Michigan.
And so that was my upbringing.
(18:49):
And now as a 40 year old who'sin some ways relearning bits of
faith here and there, I'm takingthe spiritual direction program.
And the reason I chose theprogram that I'm in is because
they have remained true to theirclassical, foundation in Christ,
(19:10):
which there are programs evenlocally that have not maintained
that.
They've kind of drifted fromChrist as the center, Christ as
the source of life, Christ is nolonger the way, the truth, and
the life.
He's a way, a truth, a life.
(19:30):
I couldn't, reckon with that.
And so I found a program thatstill had Christ at the center.
And even in this program, it hasbeen a transformational
experience because it's at theopposite end of that Christian
nationalism spectrum.
My experience with Christiannationalism is one of, I grew up
(19:53):
with that and that was verycentral and core in my
understanding of what faith was.
Like in, in order to be a Christfollower, you have to be
zealous.
You have to be loud.
You have to be all of thosethings, a warrior in the idea
that you could be a Christfollower and be contemplative
(20:17):
and, and sit with people andencounter God in the quiet
moments and, and not only that,but then help other people do
the same after they go throughlife altering circumstances,
being able to sit with people intheir pain.
Like that never struck me aseven being something that a
(20:41):
Christian could do.
So I feel like That's my verypersonal example of why I
dislike Christian nationalism somuch because it's what our
culture serves up in abundanceand it's a model that works
numerically and it's a messagethat's loud and gets people
(21:02):
fired up but it leaves themempty and broken inside.
Jim (21:07):
And it's just not biblical.
I mean, they're, where in theBible were, did they have like
flags at the front of theirchurch and like telling people
who, which, which Roman emperorto vote for and all that kind of
stuff.
I, I think, you know, you, atthe end of the day, you need to
vote for who you think is goingto do the best thing for the
country.
I think values are a big part ofthat for sure as well, but you
(21:29):
know, I, going back to thecornerstone thing, it just,
okay.
I.
Honestly, don't some people, Ithink, just hated that they had
anybody political on campus atall.
I don't know if I have as muchof a problem with that.
I think my problem is more thatI am 100 percent confident that
they won't have like ademocratic, maybe that's a
(21:49):
little unfair.
I, I feel like maybe I readsomewhere that they invited so
and so.
It's just tough because it doesfeel an awful lot like you're,
you're picking a side,especially given the recent
history of cornerstone, where itreally feels, I don't know what
(22:10):
word to use other than aninquisition.
Where it's literally like personafter person inviting them into
your office or going into theiroffice to make sure that they
had the right group think, whatdo you think about D E I, what
do you think about when it comesto some of this inclusivity
(22:31):
stuff, what do you think aboutwhen it comes to that?
And I just feel like the schoolwent so far Backwards with some
of that kind of stuff.
And again, I jumped back to thatwhole like spectrum.
I'm not saying that the goal isto get more or less liberal, but
it just feels like throwing outthe baby with the bath water to
(22:53):
me that you might not like what.
I, I hate even saying this.
I'm going to apologize.
It's shorthand, but you mightnot like what Fox News has told
you to that DEI is and all ofits badness.
But what does it actually meanto the people who are writing
(23:14):
those papers or trying toimplement those policies?
In a school environment, there'sa big difference between the
big, scary, dark thing thatthese news are literally making
a profit, making you terrifiedover versus, hey, yes, it's
there's D.
E.
I.
Somewhere in the paper becausethere's the That's the
(23:36):
terminology of the day, but whatI'm trying to do is make sure
that the black student here atCornerstone Actually gets seen
and that we're listening whenthey're talking about The overt
racism that they haveexperienced from other students
here at this guy.
I don't see a problem with thatBen I don't know about you, but
to just say well, that's DEI andthrow anybody out the door that
(24:00):
Feels that way and I, I knowsome of these people personally,
I'm sorry, again, not namingnames, but one of the most
conservative people that I know,the sweetest people that I knew
at my time there was let gobecause she was an advocate for
diversity.
(24:20):
Like, it just seems like such abackwards thing
Ben (24:24):
It...
it is!
Jim (24:26):
That the school is doing.
Like it, it.
It makes me sick, and I honestlythink I can see it with more
nuance than a lot of people inspite of being let go by this
institution.
I understand that when a newpresident comes in, you're going
to clean some house.
You're going to step on sometoes.
(24:46):
Some people are going to let go,that you're not going to agree
with, and it may have even beena mistake, but you have to
surround yourself with thepeople that you trust, that you
know, that you have the samevision, but a good president is
going to do that.
In a different way, it'scertainly not going to be an
inquisition, and you'recertainly not going to
literally, literally rewrite thehandbook so that we can fire all
(25:10):
the tenured professors in theentire humanities department.
Are you kidding me?
It's disgusting.
I say that while alsorecognizing schools got to make
money, right?
Some of what they're doing.
I think is sort of theinevitability of what you have
to do to survive.
There are going to be somemajors if they're not making a
(25:33):
ton of money, but nursing is,and that's the thing that's
going to make you more money.
Hard decisions do have tohappen.
So I think.
Some things people are beatingup the new president for
literally every single thing hedoes.
Some of them are just businessdecisions.
The school might actually bebetter off from a financial
(25:53):
standpoint than it was before.
Dr.
Stoll had to make some toughdecisions, too, when it came to
some financial things.
But to me, the difference was,like you said before, I felt
like he was bringing the schoolcloser to Christ.
Ben (26:10):
Yes.
Jim (26:12):
And I feel like the new president is bringing the school
closer to Christian
Ben (26:18):
Absolutely.
Jim (26:19):
And that is my problem.
Ben (26:21):
Absolutely.
Jim (26:22):
it makes me embarrassed to be an alumnus of Cornerstone
University.
It really does.
Ben (26:30):
I don't display my diploma anymore.
Like I just don't really findmuch value in it.
I've thought about just not evenlisting it on my LinkedIn
profile.
I haven't gone that far, butyeah, it's, it's so hard.
one of my earliest memories ofDEI and inclusivity.
(26:51):
Is from Cornerstone.
There was a fellow student, lizwas her name.
She was one of a handful ofblack students on campus.
She was active and studentchapel and dance and other
various things.
In fact, she's A lot like mydaughter today.
(27:12):
And I learned so much from beingfriends with Liz.
There was a time where I wasleading a mission trip to Los
Angeles.
There were some discussionsbetween me and some faculty at
Cornerstone about students whoshould go on this trip.
People would mention, you shouldget Liz to go.
(27:32):
I didn't realize it until Lizpointed it out to me and made it
so obvious for me.
The main reasons why Cornerstonewanted Liz on this trip was
optics.
Because we're going to an urbanarea, so you should probably
have a black student go withyou.
When I talked with Liz, I waslike, well, why wouldn't you go
on this trip?
(27:53):
You'd be perfect for it.
She would just very graciouslypoint out to me You're saying
that because I'm black.
If I was sitting here and Iwasn't black, would you be
saying those same liz was hername.
She was one of a handful ofblack students on campus.
She was active and studentchapel and dance and other
(28:15):
various things.
In fact, she's A lot like mydaughter today.
And I learned so much from beingfriends with Liz.
There was a time where I wasleading a mission trip to Los
Angeles.
There were some discussionsbetween me and some faculty at
Cornerstone about students whoshould go on this trip.
(28:38):
People would mention, you shouldget Liz to go.
The main reason why.
I didn't realize it until Lizpointed it out to me and made it
so obvious for me.
The main reasons why Cornerstonewanted Liz on this trip was
optics.
Because we're going to an urbanarea, so you should probably
have a black student go withyou.
(29:00):
When I talked with Liz, I waslike, well, why wouldn't you go
on this trip?
You'd be perfect for it.
She would just very graciouslypoint out to me You're saying
that because I'm black.
If I was sitting here and Iwasn't black, would you be
saying those same things to me?
And I had to stop and thinkabout it.
Ooh.
Yikes, I don't know that Iwould.
(29:22):
I'm basing my entire perspectiveof your participation on this
trip on you being black.
That's not fair.
That was a turning point in mylife that I look back on often.
I've reached out to Liz a coupleof times and I've just said
thank you for your honesty inthat moment.
(29:45):
if she wouldn't have saidanything, I don't think I would
have ever got it because in mymind it was just this thought of
Well, she's black.
We're going to LA.
There's a lot of black peoplethere.
She should come with us.
I tokenized her.
I cheapened Liz to herblackness.
And that was all that matteredin that moment.
(30:06):
It was just Optics, it'll lookgood if she's there.
Jim (30:10):
Optics.
Every school is going to have tofall one way or another to what
they believe while stillrecognizing our job is to.
Be loving, be accepting andfiguring out how we can draw
people closer to Christ.
It's tough.
I acknowledge that it's not ascut and dried.
To me, I'm sorry.
It's pretty stinking clear.
(30:32):
The direction that Cornerstonehas decided to go with the
institution of this newpresident is it's whole hog
Christian nationalism.
It's tough being a Christianliberal arts institution because
the point with liberal arts.
Is you're supposed to teach allthe things, right?
(30:53):
You're supposed to teachdifferent viewpoints.
You're supposed to expose peoplewith different worldviews to
your own.
And it gets more nuanced, themore you get on some of these
frontline issues that we haven'tfigured out what to do with.
But man, maybe pull that plankout of your eyes guys, because
what you're doing is Christiannationalism.
Ben (31:13):
Mm hmm.
Jim (31:14):
Is that too harsh?
Ben (31:15):
I don't think it is.
When you are so concerned withbringing in chapel speakers and
having wisdom conventions andhaving vice presidential
candidates and secret service onyour roof and all of these
things, you are now courtingChristian nationalism without
(31:38):
any doubt.
You can't even question it atthat point.
Your faith is now equated withpower and power in government.
That is precisely the thing thatJesus Came to abolish.
There were so many people backin the day of Jesus who were
(31:58):
wanting the Savior that wasgoing to give them the political
freedom.
The Jews wanted the ConqueringKing they wanted the Christian
nationalist Savior Jesus, butthat's not who he was.
He was a the humble savior whocame and delivered his people
and healed and did miracles andshook the jews to their core
(32:22):
because he's proclaiming to bethe messiah and all these things
and he was expected to be thischristian nationalist savior and
that's not at all who he was andi feel like that's what
cornerstone is trying to do aswell.
You're moving so far away fromwho Jesus is and was and you're
(32:45):
trading him for this uglyChristian nationalism that sure
might draw some crowds and mightgain some power here on earth.
But what's your, what's your endgame?
It's scary.
Jim (33:01):
It's scary for sure.
I know some folks who are goingto cornerstone that are still
having a good experience there.
God can still use the peoplethat are currently at the
institution.
Doesn't mean that.
Everybody is bad.
That's there.
I don't know how you'd beliberal arts without a
humanities department.
Honestly, that seems problematicto me.
(33:23):
But there are still good peoplethere.
And as much as I disagree withthe president's Opinions on a
lot of things.
I do think that he's trying todo right by the school and God
can use anybody.
I think we get so worked upabout politics, but at the end
(33:43):
of the day, God's going to God,God's going to do the God
things, regardless of who ourpresident is or isn't, there can
be positives and negatives, ofone president over another.
It's interesting.
I saw a post from somebody.
It was almost like Trump wassort of a second coming kind of
flavor to it and how, like Godhas ordained Trump to come and
(34:08):
do all these different for usbecause like, he's a Christian.
And at the end of the day, andI'm thinking like, I mean,
Biden's Catholic and I'm prettysure he goes to church more than
Trump does in that he doesn't,really.
So why couldn't God also useBiden to do some of those
things?
Why is just that it can God onlyuse Republicans to do his will?
(34:31):
I, It just seems a littlebizarre to me when you get that
wrapped up in it, that you startlike quoting scripture over
chosen.
And I don't mean to beat up,I've, I've voted Republican most
of my life.
And I still think that a lot ofthe tenants are sound, but.
When you get to a point, it'salmost start sounding like a
(34:55):
deity and almost idolatry.
Really?
I got a problem with
Ben (35:00):
Absolutely.
I have a huge problem with theline of thinking that goes So
Well, look at how God used KingDavid in the Bible.
King David was a womanizer, andhe was a murderer, and he was
this terrible person, but Godstill used him.
God can use Donald Trump, too.
that was it.
(35:20):
King David.
Yep.
And I just want to be like,guys, come on.
You are missing the point.
If you can make that kind of alogical jump, I question your
faith commitment here becauselet's boil this down.
Psalm 51, David has this momentof complete and utter brokenness
(35:44):
before God where he cries out inrepentance and says, I was
wrong.
Words that we'll never hear ourincoming president say.
You cannot compare Donald Trumpto King David.
Jim (36:05):
I mean, you can.
Ben (36:06):
You can, but you're wrong.
Maybe, but, but to say that Godcan use Donald Trump the same
way he used King David, I thinkthat's really sketchy theology.
Yes, Donald Trump, if he were tosurrender his life and allow the
(36:27):
Spirit to do the same work thatDavid allowed the Spirit to do
in him, absolutely, God coulduse Donald Trump.
But to say that just because Godused King David, God can use
Donald Trump too, is a logicaljump I just can't make in my
theology because it skips overthat Critical part of repentance
(36:50):
like yes, if donald repentsAbsolutely, but till then like
dude's got some work to do.
Jim (36:57):
And it's a false equivalence because we're not
the kingdom of Israel.
If anything, we're the kingdomof Rome and King David is not in
the picture here.
You know that we're talkingabout Julius Caesar, not King
David at this point.
So it is, it's a falseequivalency.
We're not, we're not a Christiannation.
I mean, we, we certainly werefounded on a lot of those Judeo
(37:20):
Christian principles, Butliterally we are here because we
were trying to escape the churchof England and them trying to
tell us what to do.
And now, ironically, we're alllike, let's have somebody who
tells us what to do with ourfaith.
So it's, it's a different thing.
I think God can use us in spiteof whoever the ruler happens to
(37:42):
be at the time, whether that's aRepublican or a Democrat.
We're being like awful harsh, tobe clear.
My issue is not with.
Donald Trump, specifically theperson, it's rather people's
reaction.
It's when we get to the point ofidolatry, that we can't even see
the cracks in the armor, that wecan't see, hey, this person's
(38:03):
not perfect.
And that's a problem that maybethis multimillionaire dude might
do some things that help him andnot necessarily me as a person.
Maybe you still do vote for theguy, but come on, it really is.
Idolatry is the word.
I want to fall on at this pointwhen it comes to that.
Ben (38:23):
It's idolatry, but then there's also this element of we
put all of our eggs in thebasket of the president and I
just don't feel like that'snecessary.
whether I have a good day or abad day doesn't depend on who's
in the White House.
It doesn't matter.
What makes today good or bad hasfar less to do with who's in the
(38:45):
White House and far more to dowith me and how I'm showing up
in my world and in my day to daylived experience.
Jim (38:53):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Let's just say it outright thatit does feel very different for
people in minority groups forpeople who do feel like maybe
they're not being seen or heard.
It's, it's a much tougher day.
Ben (39:07):
the same principle applies, regardless of who's in the White
House.
It doesn't give me an excuse tonot care for them or not work to
include them.
That's not the president's work.
That's my work.
And I think, again, we put somuch in the president's basket
that perhaps we should put it inour own basket.
(39:31):
Instead of expecting thepresident to deliver policies
and hold views similar to us, Ithink we instead should take
that energy and channel it intous being true to ourselves and
living in such a way that weadvocate for the things that we
feel the president should beadvocating for and that we make
(39:53):
a difference in the lives ofthose that are important
Jim (39:57):
Absolutely.
Be the change that you want tosee in the world.
Ben (40:01):
Don't expect, or wait around for the president to do
it for you because you're gonnabe waiting for a long time.
Yeah.
Jim (40:08):
And honestly, I think we have so much power, right?
Who is going to care for thepoor?
Who's going to care for theelderly?
Who's going to care for theminority groups?
Who's going to care for theleast of these among us?
Ben (40:21):
The church.
Jim (40:22):
The church.
And so if we're so concernedwith who the president is going
to be, we get to be the ones whoare filling in the gaps that the
government isn't doing.
Ben (40:33):
Yeah
Jim (40:34):
So you get to be the one, if you want to donate your time
or money to something that isnear and dear to your heart, the
church has way more leverage tomake change, especially if
you're a Republican, most of theRepublicans, myself included,
think that the government,there's a lot of waste.
There's a lot ofdisorganization.
(40:55):
We have way more power outsideof the ballot box to make a
difference in this country withthe organizations that we join
and donate our time and moneyto.
So let's focus more money onthat because we really could
change this country regardless.
(41:15):
Of who's in power, doesn'tmatter who the Julius Caesar is,
what are we doing as members ofthe capital C church to make
sure that we are beinginclusive, to make sure that we
are caring for the least ofthese, we have that power.
We get to step into that spaceand even on a personal level
(41:40):
from me to you, to my neighbor,I can make a difference in what
I do.
Ben (41:45):
Absolutely.
Well, until we have some morelibertarian options on the
ballot.
I am a lone duck out there.
Justin Amash.
I was really hoping you'd be onthe ticket this
Jim (41:57):
oh, I really liked Justin Amash.
He got run out.
He got run out because he saidmaybe we should at least just
investigate Trump.
He didn't even say we shouldindict him, just let's clear his
name, and that's literally howhe got run out of the Republican
Party.
Ben (42:16):
Then he went independent Libertarian anyway I do not
align with republican ordemocrat.
I am Certainly more libertarianthan anything
Jim (42:28):
there are more independents today than there ever were.
So you're, you're not alone.
I think a lot of our listenersare falling into that category
as well.
there are other people out therethat feel the same way.
It's just, those other voicesare so loud that.
We don't always speak up and saysomething.
Let your voice be heard, whetherit's in the ballot box, whether
(42:51):
it's in what you do from day today, or honestly with the
cornerstone thing, I'm not surewhat to do about that, but I'm
not going to keep my opinions tomyself about that.
Just not.
So there you go.
This definitely, probably ourmost polarizing episode we have
ever done.
So thanks for listening guys.
(43:15):
Any complaints can go to Ben atBen mail.
com.
Ben (43:21):
to, Cornerstone University 1001 No, just
Jim (43:25):
Wow.
Busting out the address.
Ben (43:29):
It's on Google.
Jim (43:30):
it's on Google.
You just doxxed Cornerstone.
Ben (43:35):
Real men hug, but they also dox their alma mater.
Jim (43:39):
Dox their alma mater, that's right.
Oh man, like I said, still somegood stuff, don't get me wrong.
Still some great people.
Ben (43:46):
Mm hmm.
Jim (43:47):
I still have some near and dear memories of my time at
Cornerstone.
I hope they can right the shipin the right way.
Ben (43:56):
I hope so.
Jim (43:58):
Thanks for listening, everybody.
Ben (44:00):
We'll see you next time on real men hug.
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