December 26, 2024 • 45 mins
In this bittersweet finale of Real Men Hug, Jim and Ben reflect on the transformative journey of their podcasting adventure. Over the past year, they’ve shared laughs, deep dives into mental health, stories of personal growth, and vulnerable moments of connection—all while modeling authentic friendship and challenging societal norms around masculinity.
This episode is packed with heartfelt reflections and hilarious behind-the-scenes anecdotes, from Ben’s ADHD-fueled doorbell chaos to Jim’s lessons in climbing out of the metaphorical well. They reminisce about highlights like hosting inspiring guests (shoutout to Dr. Matt Zakreski and Jamie and Mahlon from Round Table Mindset!), tackling tough conversations about identity and bitterness, and hearing how the show has made a real impact on listeners’ lives.
While Real Men Hug may be ending, Jim and Ben are both stepping boldly into new seasons of life. Jim shares his plans to build his next business venture, dabble in ASL, and even pen a fantasy story for his kids. Meanwhile, Ben looks forward to deepening his spiritual direction practice, writing creatively, and continuing his health journey.
And don’t miss the surprises after the ending...!
Thank you, listeners, for being part of this journey. Real Men Hug may be signing off, but the love, connection, and authenticity live on.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ben (00:01):
Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Ben.
Jim (00:08):
And I'm Jim.
Ben (00:11):
to
Jim (00:11):
the
Ben (00:12):
show.
Jim (00:18):
Welcome to the show.
So glad you could be here.
Ben (00:22):
We have news.
Jim (00:24):
We do have news.
Ben (00:25):
Any time that there's something that needs to be said.
I just don't know how to bridgeit.
I just have to.
kind of put it out there.
Jim (00:32):
Speaking of segues, we are retiring from podcasting
effective
Ben (00:38):
yeah,
Jim (00:39):
immediately or not
Ben (00:40):
go get lunch.
get
Jim (00:42):
No, okay.
Bye.
Ben (00:43):
true.
This, this
Jim (00:46):
we are retiring from podcasting by the end of this
episode.
This is it.
This is the final countdown.
Ladies and gentlemen, you knowwhat?
Sometimes that's the way thatlife goes full of
disappointment.
True.
Ben (01:02):
Yes, but here's the good news.
Jim and Ben are not goinganywhere.
I mean, Real Men Hug may begoing away, but if you know Jim
or if you know Ben, we'll bearound still.
And I'm sure we'll each have ourown projects and things we keep
busy with.
Jim (01:20):
We're not friends anymore, but.
Ben (01:22):
We had a huge argument over the weekend and just decided we
can't be friends anymore.
Stand each other
Jim (01:28):
insincerity.
It's something that I know thatI've been thinking about for,
for a little while.
I have loved doing the show withyou, Ben, really.
It's, it's been transformativefor me in a lot of ways to just,
it's a timing thing, right?
Like I'm entering into a seasonwhere I've got to effectively
build a business from scratch.
And.
(01:48):
I think everybody can relate tosometimes even good things that
are obligations can bestressful.
Ben (01:58):
Absolutely.
For me, real men hug.
It helped me see that the dreamsand aspirations I have for
myself are certainly worthpursuing.
Having conversations with you onand off the air, it really, in a
way, kind of rekindled thisdesire I've had for a while to
(02:21):
start this spiritual directioncertification program.
So we're both in this seasonwhere Real Men Hug was, like you
said, very transformative and invery powerful ways and maybe
even in ways that we didn'tnecessarily see coming.
I don't know that when westarted this a year ago that we
(02:42):
thought we'd be ending it a yearlater but, uh, That's okay.
Here we are.
Jim (02:48):
I have really enjoyed hearing from, so some folks in
particular that I think.
It just, it made me feel reallygood to know that we really had
make a difference, you know, weheard from some close friends of
yours that had reached out,which, you know, you're welcome
to talk to.
I know that John a chest lock issomebody who listened to the
(03:09):
show and he had reached out tous a few times and really
appreciated how we were modelingsome of these tough
conversations that people.
Don't often have and, Malin fromRoundtable Mindset was another
one that he's like, I literallytalked to my wife differently
today because of listening toyour shows.
That just meant a lot to me,that we were able to make an
(03:31):
impact, even if it was, asmaller group of people.
I'm so grateful that we wereable to share that experience
with them.
Ben (03:38):
I think of people in my life who decided to listen and
it meant something to them.
People that I didn't necessarilyKeep in touch with over the
years.
They still saw me on Facebookand they saw the podcast.
That's just the wonder andbeauty of social media.
(03:59):
Just the random messages fromold college friends or from
fellow coaches that I got towork with in the soccer program.
Jim (04:08):
Yeah.
Ben (04:09):
Just hearing what the show meant to them is so cool.
What we talked about and whatwe.
Jim (04:28):
So what did you learn about yourself during the process of
this show?
Ben (04:33):
show?
That my initial speechimpediments that I experienced
on the show Were not actual realspeech impediments.
They were more related to themedicine that I was on And since
stopping that medicine It'shelped tremendously.
And so that was like a veryunexpected benefit of real men
(04:56):
hug other things that I learnedIs that it's okay to You Be
vulnerable and to be open aboutmy imperfections.
Not just the things that areeasy to be vulnerable about, but
even those things that, perhapsare less, neat or less refined,
(05:20):
it's okay to talk about thosethings too.
And in fact, maybe it's in thoseunrefined thoughts that the true
beauty is somehow.
I just remember sometimes Iwould feel like I have to have
everything rehearsed and thoughtout in my head and when I
(05:40):
finally just started to talkopenly without having to totally
plan every line I was going tosay, I feel like our
conversations kind of took a Adifferent direction and it felt
more real and authentic as Ilistened back to them on the
podcast So I think that sums itup for me just learning how to
(06:04):
show up more authentically in myfriendships and If it's a mess,
well deal with it because that'swhat I got today Basically
Jim (06:20):
a speech impediment.
It was like your brain wasgetting zapped and and you
forgot what had been said.
You forgot what you were tryingto say.
But there was like the panicthat your lips are moving, so
you have to say something andfor the most part, because
you're an intelligent guy, itwas coherent and it made sense
and you might not even notice itwithout us pointing it out.
(06:43):
So I am just so grateful, ifnothing else, that the podcast
helped bring you to a pointwhere you're like, okay, this is
a problem.
This is not, this is not normal.
Ben (06:53):
I mean, imagine trying to deal with that at work to
meeting with clients andsuddenly it's like a little
lightning bolt or a lightningzap in the brain trying to talk
about a product or a service andall of a sudden.
Whoa.
And the customer's like, are yougood?
Like, I am fine.
Let's start over.
(07:16):
Yes.
Jim (07:16):
Yeah, and then I remember I felt bad, but a little bit in
the beginning.
I sometimes call you Mr Whitakerbecause because you would start
talking in this very like churchSunday
Ben (07:28):
and today on real men hug.
Jim (07:31):
And I was like, Ben, like, nobody cares.
Nobody wants, they, they can getMr.
Whittaker on Adventures inOdyssey.
They want to hear you.
I, I kept referring to like Bdubs Ben, right?
Like when it's just you and meshooting the breeze and.
I'm picking on you because youwere the one self reflecting.
You can pick on me when I talkabout what I learned, but I, I
(07:52):
agree.
I love when we kind of got moreinto just putting our feet up
and relaxing and just talkingabout how life has impacted us.
And so I, I've really enjoyedbeing on the other side of this
podcast with you and hearingyour sage words of wisdom.
And I've learned a lot throughthat as well.
Ben (08:14):
I'm looking forward to carrying on our friendship
without the mics.
Jim (08:20):
I thought we weren't friends anymore,
Ben (08:23):
Oh, that's right.
Oh,
Jim (08:32):
is that I have a very unreliable memory, or maybe
that's not the right way ofsaying it.
My memory is far more connectedto how I feel than what actually
happened, how I felt than whatactually happened, right?
So there are some things likeStraight out the gate talking
(08:53):
about the, my parents beingdivorced and even like, kind of
like having to move to SouthCarolina and some of those
different things, I realize mymemories are shaped around how I
was impacted and how I felt so Icould say things like, for
instance, you know, nobody in myfamily was affectionate or
(09:16):
talked about their feelings oremotions.
Transcribed But then my brotherDave would be like, well, that's
not true.
You know, like that, that'sactually not what happened.
And like, am I included in this,this mix that like nobody, but
the thing is my brother, Davehe's the oldest, And I'm the
youngest of five so, so hewasn't really even around or in
(09:38):
my scope of conversation.
And so to me, he just kind ofgets looped in with all of it
when he actually does have bigfeelings, right?
He might not express them in thesame way that I do, but he just
wasn't.
In that picture, that'ssomething I learned about
(09:58):
myself.
Sometimes it is a little bitshorthand.
You can say, well, actually,that's not true because this and
that, and it just getscumbersome.
And so you kind of use shorthandwith, with the past, but it's
been an interesting process torealize about myself that I kind
of have these biased memoriesabout, about my past.
(10:21):
Yeah,
Ben (10:35):
feedback and input about the show.
I love that.
I don't know if my family has.
Ever listened and if they do,nobody says anything about it.
So if you're listening, Krakerfamily, thanks for listening and
maybe, uh,
Jim (10:56):
him know.
Ben (10:56):
let me know because this is the last episode and it'd be
nice to know if you heard any ofthem.
I don't know, but seriouslythough, to the Van Stensel fam,
thanks for being part of this.
I feel like I've, by some weirdextension, gotten to know your
family through this wholeexperience, or at least through
(11:18):
you, through your perspective ofthem, which as you just said,
may or may not be entirelyfactual.
Yeah,
Jim (11:25):
Yeah, exactly.
I've made it all up,
Ben (11:27):
Yeah.
Jim (11:29):
you know, and my mom has been one of the biggest fans of
the podcast and she's one thatearly, early on, we had a lot of
conversations about some ofthose perceptions because
especially around the divorceand my upbringing and
everything, I think she justreally wanted to.
Be reassured that, I was a goodmom and that like you had a good
(11:54):
childhood and I could have evensaid it in the episode.
And in fact, after the second orthird conversation with my
mother, I made sure that I did.
but I think for her, like shejust so badly wanted to The best
for me.
So it's always hard becausedivorce is messy
Ben (12:12):
yeah, no
Jim (12:13):
and and there is trauma and there's baggage with that.
And I think that's somethingthat she really just wishes that
she could take away.
But you can't.
And that's just the reality ofthe situation.
My my mother more than yeah.
Anybody.
And that's not to say that Idon't have an incredibly
supportive family, but she hasalways been there for me.
(12:35):
She's always showed up for meand supported me in a way where
she's, she is there and she seeswhat I'm going through.
I think there's my.
My mother articulated some ofthe trauma that I had been going
through over the years, youknow, you've done all these
(12:56):
things and you've done it foryour family.
And so few people see thesacrifices that you have made,
but I have seen you in thatprocess.
And I know that you're such agood husband and father and, and
you have fought so hard for allof these things to fall apart.
And I'm like, Practically cryingbecause I felt so seen and heard
(13:17):
in those moments.
And so, you know, mom, I knowthat you're eventually listening
to this episode.
I just want to say that I haveabsolutely appreciated your
presence and availability in mylife.
And I will say this to all themoms and dads out there.
It is never too late.
(13:37):
It's never too late to have arelationship with your kids.
They just want your presence.
But.
To some of the moms and dads outthere, sometimes, think about
what your kids are saying.
If you do have a brokenrelationship, the easiest thing
to do is think a couple things.
One, you can think, well, it's,it's their problem and if they
(14:00):
really want to do somethingabout it, then they can come to
me.
Okay.
That clearly that's worked foryou for count the years that you
haven't really had therelationship.
And two, you get to thinkingit's never going to change.
Like, this is just the way it isand accepting that, I refuse to
believe that.
I think any relationship can behealed within reason.
(14:23):
There are some people out there,I suspect, you have drawn that
line in the sand that you neededto draw, especially around some
narcissistic parents out there,abusive parents.
Don't get me wrong those peopleyou drew the line and you needed
to but don't just because you'restuck in a pattern think that
You always need to be there, butdo some real self reflection
(14:44):
because if you think the otherperson is 100 percent the
problem you're wrong You'realmost certainly wrong
Ben (14:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
This goes back to one of myfavorite episodes that we did.
We talked about boundaries.
Boundaries are very necessary.
And there needs to be a end goalwith said boundaries.
You have boundaries so that youcan build yourself back up and
(15:14):
ensure that you stay built up sothat you can handle stressors
and so that you don't fallapart.
And for a time, perhaps you doneed to keep certain individuals
within a certain distance.
But something that I am seeingin my wife is, there does come a
(15:35):
time where you do reintroducethose people.
There's an individual in mywife's circle, and I won't
mention their relationshipbecause I haven't Talk to Andy
about this before recording, butsuffice it to say, it's a person
in her sphere that did her a lotof harm, and for many years,
(15:57):
she's kept this person at a verysignificant distance, and one of
the things that she's beenrealizing in her own healing
journey is the fact that I don'tneed this distance anymore.
Perhaps this distance is notserving me anymore.
And so now the work becomesreintroduction and bringing that
(16:20):
person closer.
That's the kind of thing that Ihope our show does for people,
you know, helping them to seeand evaluate their own lives and
their own relationships.
So if hearing Jim's story of thecomplexities of growing up in a
divorced family of hearing ofwhat it was like for his
(16:43):
brothers for his mom all of thethings that we've talked about
here on the show maybe thatstirred something in our
listeners and you know that'sthe stuff that really matters
and makes a difference sowhether it's the boundaries the
family we've covered a lot ofground on this show
Jim (17:01):
Yeah.
What have been some of thehighlights for you of doing this
show?
I
Ben (17:08):
for me, Jim, was when we recorded episode five, we were
talking about identity.
That was the night where we camein and you were teed up to tell
your Ed Jones story,
Jim (17:22):
Okay.
Ben (17:24):
my identity story first.
Your story had been a lot moredeveloped and we had talked a
lot more about your story as wewere preparing for recording the
episode.
I remember we talked about itover lunch.
It was one of the things that weinitially talked about as we
(17:45):
planned for the podcast, evenbefore we started recording.
Ed Jones was going to be amainstay topic or a story that
frames what the show is about,just because that was such a
meaningful experience for you.
We start recording and I end uptalking At length about my story
(18:10):
and we don't even get to the edjones story that night and I
just remember you being like Ithink this is supposed to be
your episode and just thehumility in that and the
willingness for you to shiftgears and step out of the
spotlight and make room for mein a moment that was supposed to
(18:33):
be yours was very meaningful.
And it was a very catharticexperience.
Just naming and talking throughsome of the identity shaping
moments of my life.
And it's all stuff that I've,I've certainly processed through
in therapy, but I don't knowthat I've really taken the time
(18:58):
to at length process them with afriend in a way that I did that
night.
And that was really powerful.
And that was certainly a, a hugehighlight for me.
Jim (19:12):
You know, It really, truly is a bummer that our show didn't
take off more than it didbecause I don't know if we could
have done a better job modelinglike an authentic friendship,
right?
But that's the crux of this showin a lot of ways.
(19:33):
I don't think we talked about ita lot on air, but off air, we
had an awful lot ofconversations about this.
Ben, if you're not comfortabletalking about that thing, then
don't talk about it.
Jim, if, if you feel like you'repressured to do this thing just
because it's going to get morepeople to listen to the episode,
(19:54):
don't talk about it.
Of course, you want to beinteresting to a bunch of people
in a podcast, but we neverwanted, for popularity reasons,
to character assassinate or draganybody through the mud.
And that's.
I think in some ways, thedownfall of the podcast that we
intentionally weren't doingthings just to get people to
(20:15):
click, but also one of thethings that I have truly
appreciated about it, that Ifeel like we've been doing this
for our friendship and for ourhealth, and I know for you,
there had been some struggleswith like a previous podcast and
the impact that that's had onyou, and I wanted to be the
opposite of all those negativethings that you were.
(20:36):
Felt about it when we got intothis.
So it was always about you andme, bud.
Ben (20:40):
It has been, it's been tremendous in that way.
And you're right, my previouspodcasting experiences, there
were some sour grapes in themix.
I'm grateful that therelationship with my former co
hosts is on stable ground, likewe tolerate each other and we
(21:01):
still talk and you know, we'renot at each other's necks like
we once were, but Those weresome really rough days on that
show when things went south, andit took a lot of work and a lot
of time, honestly, to just healand a lot of separation for us
(21:21):
both to, to let things simmerand settle down.
I'm glad that we never had thatin our year of recording I don't
recall once where things gotlike heated or like I can't
believe you said that or In ayear of doing this.
(21:42):
I can't recall once where I waslike Legit angry with you over
anything
Jim (21:49):
Same.
Ben (21:50):
Except for my you know
Jim (21:52):
Except for having to edit out all of your verbal tics.
Ben (21:57):
Yes.
Oh, yeah.
Jim (22:12):
I was like, Ben, are you freaking kidding me?
That one, I was upset.
I wasn't like mad at you, but Iwas upset.
Ben (22:19):
rightfully so.
Jim (22:21):
That, that, so that time,
Ben (22:22):
I, I, I was certainly, that was an understandable level of
being upset.
I think I would have been upsetwith you if the tables were
Jim (22:32):
yeah, there's, there's more behind the scenes than just, Oh,
Jim did a bunch of work that.
Ben didn't see, but we don'tneed to get into that, but we
were, it was fine.
We
Ben (22:42):
that we can laugh at it now, says a
Jim (22:45):
at the time though, I was just like, Ben, you gotta
Ben (22:47):
ha.
Jim (22:49):
not know you, I don't even remember, but you were like, not
in your, Not in your clear headat the time.
So sometimes you just, sometimesyou need to have grace and
there's forgiveness infriendship because everybody
makes mistakes.
Ben (23:05):
Nobody's nerfect.
Jim (23:07):
Exactly.
Yep., I'll say for me, one of myhighlights of the show was
having roundtable mindset on.
I really enjoyed sitting acrossthe table with them virtually
anyways, and chatting throughsome of those gender norm
conversations, just, I loveJamie and Malin's perspective,
(23:31):
and they're so easy to talk to,and I, I envy their podcast.
I think in another paralleluniverse, their exact setup is
kind of like modeling thosetough conversations, right?
That's ultimately where welanded that I think that's kind
of what we always wanted ourpodcast to be, that they just
(23:53):
seem to figure out from day one.
And it's why they're stillrunning and they just have such
dynamic personalities.
And if you, if you are a missingreal men hug and.
Already going throughwithdrawals, knowing that our
show is ending, check out roundtable mindset podcast.
I think that that is, you know,a close second as far as
(24:17):
podcasts go out there.
Be sure to check them out.
Ben (24:22):
I loved Malin and Jamie just, just good, authentic
people that though we onlyconnected with them virtually.
It was like, They were oldfriends, like they just felt
like college buddies somehow.
just easy to talk to, superchatty, super engaging
(24:44):
personalities.
I really enjoy listening totheir show, so I second that.
Give them a listen, theRoundtable Mindset, wherever you
get your podcasts.
I also enjoyed having Dr.
Zekreski on the show.
Dr.
Matt Zekreski is an expert inneurodivergence and hearing him
(25:05):
talk about ADHD was soenlightening for me.
I was diagnosed as an adult withADHD so I struggled my entire
life with All of the things thatADHD people face and hearing him
name them and talk about themand normalize these struggles
(25:26):
and give some coping strategiesand different ways of looking at
the world was incrediblyhelpful.
So in a lot of ways, I feel likeReal Men Hug was possibly even
more helpful to me as host.
Then it was perhaps to listenersin an odd way, at least with
(25:50):
that episode, it almost feltlike I had a free hour
consultation with an expert whoknew my life forwards and
backwards.
It was very meaningful to haveDr.
Matt on the show.
And even today it was hilarious.
I knew Jim was coming over andso I remembered that my ring
doorbell was low on battery andI was like, Oh, Jim's coming
(26:14):
over.
I better be out there so I canwatch him because I'm not gonna
see him on the camera.
So That sounds really creepy asI say it, but anyway, I'm not
gonna get a notification thatthere's somebody approaching my
door So I better go hang out inthe living room.
So I did and then I was like,well, I'm out here So I'm gonna
(26:35):
go grab the doorbell and I'mgonna charge it and then I got
the doorbell and brought itinside to charge it and I'm
looking for a charger and Icouldn't find one and Then I
noticed that the the doorbellLatte maker was kind of dirty
and so I started cleaning thatand then I realized that I still
hadn't plugged in the doorbelland then Jim shows up at the
(26:58):
door and I'm got a doorbell inone hand and I've got a paper
towel and a spray bottle and Igo and open the door and it's
just this chaotic moment ofComplete and utter ADHD chaos,
and that's how today started.
So that was certainly ahighlight, Dr.
(27:19):
Matt being on the show.
Jim (27:22):
I loved having Dr.
Zuckreski on, Dr.
Matt on as well.
For me, it was more justunderstanding my kids a little
bit better because I have twogifted kids that whole buckets
thing that he was talking about,or like you have different
things that you're more or lessintelligent or advanced in.
I know I'm butchering it now,but just that idea that your
(27:45):
kids don't.
Mature and develop on those samelevels helped me understand.
The things that I wasn't gettingand why other people weren't
getting my kids either.
That was really helpful for me.
I haven't checked out his bookyet, but he's got his book, I
think is officially out now.
(28:05):
So check out the neurodiversityplaybook.
You can find it on Amazon.
It's probably the easiest way toget it.
I'm excited to see kind of whathe talks about in there.
Cause he certainly knows whathe's up to, knows what he's
talking about.
And so, if you've gotneurodivergent kids, if you've
got ADHD, um, Crackin the Codeis, is the book to reference,
(28:27):
and he has a podcast now, Ibelieve, as well, so I don't,
I'm not sure I recall what, whatit is, but it's a newer podcast,
just look up Dr.
Matt or Dr.
Zekreski and you'll be able tofind it.
Highlight for sure, though.
Ben (28:39):
absolutely.
Jim (28:41):
We were both taking notes during that episode.
Ben (28:44):
Yes, and I've referenced my notes a couple of times.
I love the concept of from whatif.
to what is.
That has helped me reorientmyself so many times in
stressful moments, anxiousmoments, I just pause and I ask
myself that question.
Okay, is this a moment of whatif?
(29:07):
And if it is, what do I need todo to shift into thinking about
what actually is?
Jim (29:14):
Yeah.
Ben (29:15):
what is verifiably true in this moment versus.
What's the what if that I'mfretting about that may not be?
So that's been very helpful Yeah
Jim (29:35):
me was Failing Forward When Bitterness Robs Your Joy,
Episode 7.
That's been our most downloadedepisode, and it, it was hard to
get a lot of that done.
Um, but I think that has beenthe episode that I have
personally taken the most out ofand just kind of realized that
(30:02):
man, bitterness really does roba lot of joy.
Comparison is the thief of joy.
And.
I don't know our, our culture, Iwas actually talking to my
sister on the way here overMarco Polo, and I said, I think
part of the issue is that Idon't value the same things that
(30:22):
society values.
And so when success and moneyand that big job is like the
number one thing that societytells you you're supposed to be
doing, even when you arecrushing it on the thing that
you value, you can still feellike a failure.
So reading, um, Amy Morin'sbook, the 10 things that
(30:46):
mentally healthy people don'tdo, or I might be butchering
that, but Google it, you'll findit.
Um, just realizing like, I amnot a failure.
I am killing it in the areasthat I was really focused on,
and it is so easy to get stuckin your own failures, get stuck
(31:08):
in a pity party.
Really at the end of the day,the only person you're hurting
is yourself.
And so learning to let go ofsome of that bitterness, life
isn't fair.
Newsflash.
I said it a lot better onEpisode 7, When Bitterness Robs
Your Joy, so if you haven'tlistened to that episode, that'd
(31:28):
definitely be one that I wouldrecommend listening to.
Okay.
Ben (31:44):
you tell the story and just feeling all the feels from.
when you were sharing and wecould just keep reminiscing.
But the truth of the matter is,is it's coming to a close and as
hard as that is, I'm genuinelyexcited to see not just what's
(32:06):
next for me, but for you aswell.
Like I definitely see somegrowth and it's been exciting to
see that shift in you.
You mentioned the book you'rereading from Amy Morin and just
the conversations that you'vebeen having, the reflection
you've been doing.
There really is a shift fromthat bitterness into this
(32:29):
openness, I would call it.
It's not necessarily having itall figured out and it's not
necessarily having it allsettled and like, yep, the
life's just not fair and that'stotally fine by me, but I think
there's certainly more opennessin you and I'm excited to see
what that openness brings aboutfor you.
(32:51):
So.
I'm just super excited aboutthat.
I think there's some really goodthings on the horizon for you.
For me personally, I'm lookingforward to one day, this space
that we've used as a podcaststudio.
I envisioned the space beingwhere I meet with my spiritual
(33:13):
direction clients.
I've been doing group spiritualdirection practicum with my, uh,
cohort.
And so the three of us.
When we have class in Chicago,we end our sessions doing
spiritual direction in our trio,and we take turns being the
(33:37):
directee, and then the other twoget the chance to practice what
we've been learning, and then wehave a facilitator.
One of the faculty that kind ofoversees and coaches and
interrupts as needed.
And it's just been this reallybeautiful thing of learning the
art of spiritual direction andshowing up and speaking.
(34:01):
Words of truth and sitting insilence with people as they
share.
So for me, that's what's next.
Super excited about that andjust moving forward in that
program.
And I've got a few othercreative things that I'm looking
into.
I love writing and finding waysto grow in my writing.
(34:25):
Whether that's a blog or a substack, or I'm not sure, but, uh,
That's probably next for me aswell taking some time to get
some creative writing outlet outthere Now that real men hug is
coming to an end.
So that's what's next for me.
What's next for Jim?
Yes,
Jim (34:49):
I have grown as a result of doing this podcast and I think
the biggest thing for me thatyou kind of alluded to is it's
not like I'm.
I'm healed and I'm no longerdepressed or anxious or any of
that sort of stuff.
But I think when I started thispodcast, I was stuck.
I was, I was not making anymovement and to extend the
(35:15):
analogy, like if I was, I don'tknow what the bottom of a well
or something like that, I wasjust sitting there upset about
being at the bottom of the well,I'm still in the well, but.
Now I'm climbing my way up andout of it.
And I think that is the biggestthing for me is that I feel like
I am making some progress in myown mental health.
(35:36):
And I hope that's something thatyou can take away.
Ben and I, neither of us eversaid that we have it all figured
out or are perfect.
Quite the opposite.
I really was truly depressed atthe beginning of this and just
felt like God had it out to getme and I was stuck.
And I think.
In talking through this episodethat led me to even like
(36:00):
Googling and looking for my ownpodcast and stumbling into Amy
Moran and reading some of herbook and talking with you and
doing some self reflection torealize I, I am a big part of
the prop.
My circumstances might have beenwhat knocked me into that well,
but I spent a long time downthere.
Not bothering to try to pullmyself out because I was too
(36:23):
busy being mad at the gust ofwind that blew me down there in
the first place.
So, I'm climbing out of it andit's hard.
Ben (36:33):
Yeah.
Jim (36:33):
It's not easy, but there's progress and it, this podcast
has helped me realize how manythings that are going well in my
life that other people are not.
Could look at and be like, man,how can he have all of that and
still not see like how blessedhe is?
And I am grateful for my wifeand my kids and the relationship
(36:57):
that I have with my familythat's the most important thing
to me and That is going so wellright now that I can't take that
for granted Just because I'm notexactly where I want to be in my
career.
It's gonna work out And I thinkI'm starting to realize even if
this new step in the journey inthis career ends up being
something where I can't pull ittogether and I have to step away
(37:22):
from it, that doesn't define meas a person and you just got to
pick yourself up.
Dust yourself off and recognizelike, oh, at the end of the day,
I'm doing it to be there for myfamily and I'm showing up for my
family.
That's what's important.
So don't rob yourself of thatjoy.
Like I said before, sometimeseven something that you enjoy,
just the obligation of that.
(37:44):
Is something that can pull awayfrom I just, I need to be able
to just reach out to Ben to goto be dubs with him to sit and
chat rather than figure out whatwe're going to talk about and
when we're going to edit it.
And when is it going to air?
I, I'm just looking forward tojust enjoying our friendship for
what it is.
And, uh, I want to start takingsome ASL classes, whether that's
(38:07):
through Lingvano or taking aclass through something that's
offered there because of myhearing issues, I'd love to
learn ASL before, if, and whenit gets worse.
I am going to write a shortstory.
just a fun little fantasy storyabout a goblin.
(38:27):
for that's something that'sgonna be a joy for my kid to
read and just being able to dosome stuff for fun and kind of
relax and charge my batteries.
And so I'm looking forward tothe year ahead.
Ben (38:42):
Awesome.
Nailed it.
It's,
Jim (38:47):
It's, it's hard to do Ben, but.
We truly are at the end of theend of Real Men Hug,
Ben (38:54):
We are.
Jim (38:56):
but for what it's worth, I have so greatly appreciated
sharing this show with you andbeing a part of something bigger
than ourselves.
And I think it was a greatoutlet for both of us and just
really appreciate you as, as aperson and as a friend.
And I'm grateful for theexperience that we had with Real
(39:18):
Men Hug.
Ben (39:20):
Right back at you.
It's really cool.
I don't know that.
Jim (39:25):
I
Ben (39:26):
been like the make or break of our friendship.
I think our friendship wouldhave gone on regardless of
whether we did the show.
However, I do feel it'scertainly enhanced our
friendship in a way that if wedid not do this show, I don't
think we would have experiencedthe level of closeness that we
have over the last year.
(39:46):
And I think that level ofcloseness, now that we're not
doing the show, I think it'sgoing to continue because we
have a reason to continue tomaintain this friendship.
It's a friendship that's easy.
I love that it's one of thosefriendships that we can just
hang out and pick right back upwhere we left off.
(40:07):
There's no pressure.
It's not a difficult friendshipto maintain.
And I always enjoy time withJim.
So thank you for being the kindof friend that is just an easy
friendship.
I think we both have had friendswhere that's not always the
case.
And it's such a gift that Idon't take for granted.
(40:29):
And I appreciate.
The encouragement and the, um,Reminders to just be B dubs,
Ben, and to just just show up asme and, and not feel this
pressure to be any other sort ofme, just be Ben.
Like that's been huge.
(40:50):
And I appreciate that so much.
but I've had enough of that andit's time for me to go back to
my AI hidey hole and, um,disengage.
So real men hug, but they alsoknow when it's time to just be
done.
Jim (41:06):
Thanks John Cena so much for being here with us today.
We appreciate your presence andyour words of wisdom.
Ben (41:14):
Real men hug, but they also end a podcast after almost a
year and say peace out.
Jim (41:22):
Peace out.
Ben (41:23):
Love you guys.
Thanks for being part of theride.
And girls too.
And any other genders that maynot be included in our
Jim (41:32):
There we go.
Inclusivity, and with theinclusivity,
Ben (41:38):
we love all of you.
Thanks for being part of theshow.
Jim (41:42):
even the artificial intelligence.
Ben (41:45):
Especially the artificial intelligence.
We're coming for you.
Jim (41:52):
Oh boy.
I feel like this would be one ofthose episodes where.
You wait till all of the creditsroll at the end of the theater.
And there's like a hidden endingat the end, like some kind of
(42:13):
song.
What, do you have a song youwant to sing for us, Ben?
Ben (42:17):
can have A.
I.
write a song
Jim (45:19):
Never going to give you up.
Never going to let you down.
Never going to lie to you andhurt you.
Rick rolled her audience rightto the end.
Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Ben.
Jim (00:08):
And I'm Jim.
Ben (00:11):
to
Jim (00:11):
the
Ben (00:12):
show.
Jim (00:18):
Welcome to the show.
So glad you could be here.
Ben (00:22):
We have news.
Jim (00:24):
We do have news.
Ben (00:25):
Any time that there's something that needs to be said.
I just don't know how to bridgeit.
I just have to.
kind of put it out there.
Jim (00:32):
Speaking of segues, we are retiring from podcasting
effective
Ben (00:38):
yeah,
Jim (00:39):
immediately or not
Ben (00:40):
go get lunch.
get
Jim (00:42):
No, okay.
Bye.
Ben (00:43):
true.
This, this
Jim (00:46):
we are retiring from podcasting by the end of this
episode.
This is it.
This is the final countdown.
Ladies and gentlemen, you knowwhat?
Sometimes that's the way thatlife goes full of
disappointment.
True.
Ben (01:02):
Yes, but here's the good news.
Jim and Ben are not goinganywhere.
I mean, Real Men Hug may begoing away, but if you know Jim
or if you know Ben, we'll bearound still.
And I'm sure we'll each have ourown projects and things we keep
busy with.
Jim (01:20):
We're not friends anymore, but.
Ben (01:22):
We had a huge argument over the weekend and just decided we
can't be friends anymore.
Stand each other
Jim (01:28):
insincerity.
It's something that I know thatI've been thinking about for,
for a little while.
I have loved doing the show withyou, Ben, really.
It's, it's been transformativefor me in a lot of ways to just,
it's a timing thing, right?
Like I'm entering into a seasonwhere I've got to effectively
build a business from scratch.
And.
(01:48):
I think everybody can relate tosometimes even good things that
are obligations can bestressful.
Ben (01:58):
Absolutely.
For me, real men hug.
It helped me see that the dreamsand aspirations I have for
myself are certainly worthpursuing.
Having conversations with you onand off the air, it really, in a
way, kind of rekindled thisdesire I've had for a while to
(02:21):
start this spiritual directioncertification program.
So we're both in this seasonwhere Real Men Hug was, like you
said, very transformative and invery powerful ways and maybe
even in ways that we didn'tnecessarily see coming.
I don't know that when westarted this a year ago that we
(02:42):
thought we'd be ending it a yearlater but, uh, That's okay.
Here we are.
Jim (02:48):
I have really enjoyed hearing from, so some folks in
particular that I think.
It just, it made me feel reallygood to know that we really had
make a difference, you know, weheard from some close friends of
yours that had reached out,which, you know, you're welcome
to talk to.
I know that John a chest lock issomebody who listened to the
(03:09):
show and he had reached out tous a few times and really
appreciated how we were modelingsome of these tough
conversations that people.
Don't often have and, Malin fromRoundtable Mindset was another
one that he's like, I literallytalked to my wife differently
today because of listening toyour shows.
That just meant a lot to me,that we were able to make an
(03:31):
impact, even if it was, asmaller group of people.
I'm so grateful that we wereable to share that experience
with them.
Ben (03:38):
I think of people in my life who decided to listen and
it meant something to them.
People that I didn't necessarilyKeep in touch with over the
years.
They still saw me on Facebookand they saw the podcast.
That's just the wonder andbeauty of social media.
(03:59):
Just the random messages fromold college friends or from
fellow coaches that I got towork with in the soccer program.
Jim (04:08):
Yeah.
Ben (04:09):
Just hearing what the show meant to them is so cool.
What we talked about and whatwe.
Jim (04:28):
So what did you learn about yourself during the process of
this show?
Ben (04:33):
show?
That my initial speechimpediments that I experienced
on the show Were not actual realspeech impediments.
They were more related to themedicine that I was on And since
stopping that medicine It'shelped tremendously.
And so that was like a veryunexpected benefit of real men
(04:56):
hug other things that I learnedIs that it's okay to You Be
vulnerable and to be open aboutmy imperfections.
Not just the things that areeasy to be vulnerable about, but
even those things that, perhapsare less, neat or less refined,
(05:20):
it's okay to talk about thosethings too.
And in fact, maybe it's in thoseunrefined thoughts that the true
beauty is somehow.
I just remember sometimes Iwould feel like I have to have
everything rehearsed and thoughtout in my head and when I
(05:40):
finally just started to talkopenly without having to totally
plan every line I was going tosay, I feel like our
conversations kind of took a Adifferent direction and it felt
more real and authentic as Ilistened back to them on the
podcast So I think that sums itup for me just learning how to
(06:04):
show up more authentically in myfriendships and If it's a mess,
well deal with it because that'swhat I got today Basically
Jim (06:20):
a speech impediment.
It was like your brain wasgetting zapped and and you
forgot what had been said.
You forgot what you were tryingto say.
But there was like the panicthat your lips are moving, so
you have to say something andfor the most part, because
you're an intelligent guy, itwas coherent and it made sense
and you might not even notice itwithout us pointing it out.
(06:43):
So I am just so grateful, ifnothing else, that the podcast
helped bring you to a pointwhere you're like, okay, this is
a problem.
This is not, this is not normal.
Ben (06:53):
I mean, imagine trying to deal with that at work to
meeting with clients andsuddenly it's like a little
lightning bolt or a lightningzap in the brain trying to talk
about a product or a service andall of a sudden.
Whoa.
And the customer's like, are yougood?
Like, I am fine.
Let's start over.
(07:16):
Yes.
Jim (07:16):
Yeah, and then I remember I felt bad, but a little bit in
the beginning.
I sometimes call you Mr Whitakerbecause because you would start
talking in this very like churchSunday
Ben (07:28):
and today on real men hug.
Jim (07:31):
And I was like, Ben, like, nobody cares.
Nobody wants, they, they can getMr.
Whittaker on Adventures inOdyssey.
They want to hear you.
I, I kept referring to like Bdubs Ben, right?
Like when it's just you and meshooting the breeze and.
I'm picking on you because youwere the one self reflecting.
You can pick on me when I talkabout what I learned, but I, I
(07:52):
agree.
I love when we kind of got moreinto just putting our feet up
and relaxing and just talkingabout how life has impacted us.
And so I, I've really enjoyedbeing on the other side of this
podcast with you and hearingyour sage words of wisdom.
And I've learned a lot throughthat as well.
Ben (08:14):
I'm looking forward to carrying on our friendship
without the mics.
Jim (08:20):
I thought we weren't friends anymore,
Ben (08:23):
Oh, that's right.
Oh,
Jim (08:32):
is that I have a very unreliable memory, or maybe
that's not the right way ofsaying it.
My memory is far more connectedto how I feel than what actually
happened, how I felt than whatactually happened, right?
So there are some things likeStraight out the gate talking
(08:53):
about the, my parents beingdivorced and even like, kind of
like having to move to SouthCarolina and some of those
different things, I realize mymemories are shaped around how I
was impacted and how I felt so Icould say things like, for
instance, you know, nobody in myfamily was affectionate or
(09:16):
talked about their feelings oremotions.
Transcribed But then my brotherDave would be like, well, that's
not true.
You know, like that, that'sactually not what happened.
And like, am I included in this,this mix that like nobody, but
the thing is my brother, Davehe's the oldest, And I'm the
youngest of five so, so hewasn't really even around or in
(09:38):
my scope of conversation.
And so to me, he just kind ofgets looped in with all of it
when he actually does have bigfeelings, right?
He might not express them in thesame way that I do, but he just
wasn't.
In that picture, that'ssomething I learned about
(09:58):
myself.
Sometimes it is a little bitshorthand.
You can say, well, actually,that's not true because this and
that, and it just getscumbersome.
And so you kind of use shorthandwith, with the past, but it's
been an interesting process torealize about myself that I kind
of have these biased memoriesabout, about my past.
(10:21):
Yeah,
Ben (10:35):
feedback and input about the show.
I love that.
I don't know if my family has.
Ever listened and if they do,nobody says anything about it.
So if you're listening, Krakerfamily, thanks for listening and
maybe, uh,
Jim (10:56):
him know.
Ben (10:56):
let me know because this is the last episode and it'd be
nice to know if you heard any ofthem.
I don't know, but seriouslythough, to the Van Stensel fam,
thanks for being part of this.
I feel like I've, by some weirdextension, gotten to know your
family through this wholeexperience, or at least through
(11:18):
you, through your perspective ofthem, which as you just said,
may or may not be entirelyfactual.
Yeah,
Jim (11:25):
Yeah, exactly.
I've made it all up,
Ben (11:27):
Yeah.
Jim (11:29):
you know, and my mom has been one of the biggest fans of
the podcast and she's one thatearly, early on, we had a lot of
conversations about some ofthose perceptions because
especially around the divorceand my upbringing and
everything, I think she justreally wanted to.
Be reassured that, I was a goodmom and that like you had a good
(11:54):
childhood and I could have evensaid it in the episode.
And in fact, after the second orthird conversation with my
mother, I made sure that I did.
but I think for her, like shejust so badly wanted to The best
for me.
So it's always hard becausedivorce is messy
Ben (12:12):
yeah, no
Jim (12:13):
and and there is trauma and there's baggage with that.
And I think that's somethingthat she really just wishes that
she could take away.
But you can't.
And that's just the reality ofthe situation.
My my mother more than yeah.
Anybody.
And that's not to say that Idon't have an incredibly
supportive family, but she hasalways been there for me.
(12:35):
She's always showed up for meand supported me in a way where
she's, she is there and she seeswhat I'm going through.
I think there's my.
My mother articulated some ofthe trauma that I had been going
through over the years, youknow, you've done all these
(12:56):
things and you've done it foryour family.
And so few people see thesacrifices that you have made,
but I have seen you in thatprocess.
And I know that you're such agood husband and father and, and
you have fought so hard for allof these things to fall apart.
And I'm like, Practically cryingbecause I felt so seen and heard
(13:17):
in those moments.
And so, you know, mom, I knowthat you're eventually listening
to this episode.
I just want to say that I haveabsolutely appreciated your
presence and availability in mylife.
And I will say this to all themoms and dads out there.
It is never too late.
(13:37):
It's never too late to have arelationship with your kids.
They just want your presence.
But.
To some of the moms and dads outthere, sometimes, think about
what your kids are saying.
If you do have a brokenrelationship, the easiest thing
to do is think a couple things.
One, you can think, well, it's,it's their problem and if they
(14:00):
really want to do somethingabout it, then they can come to
me.
Okay.
That clearly that's worked foryou for count the years that you
haven't really had therelationship.
And two, you get to thinkingit's never going to change.
Like, this is just the way it isand accepting that, I refuse to
believe that.
I think any relationship can behealed within reason.
(14:23):
There are some people out there,I suspect, you have drawn that
line in the sand that you neededto draw, especially around some
narcissistic parents out there,abusive parents.
Don't get me wrong those peopleyou drew the line and you needed
to but don't just because you'restuck in a pattern think that
You always need to be there, butdo some real self reflection
(14:44):
because if you think the otherperson is 100 percent the
problem you're wrong You'realmost certainly wrong
Ben (14:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
This goes back to one of myfavorite episodes that we did.
We talked about boundaries.
Boundaries are very necessary.
And there needs to be a end goalwith said boundaries.
You have boundaries so that youcan build yourself back up and
(15:14):
ensure that you stay built up sothat you can handle stressors
and so that you don't fallapart.
And for a time, perhaps you doneed to keep certain individuals
within a certain distance.
But something that I am seeingin my wife is, there does come a
(15:35):
time where you do reintroducethose people.
There's an individual in mywife's circle, and I won't
mention their relationshipbecause I haven't Talk to Andy
about this before recording, butsuffice it to say, it's a person
in her sphere that did her a lotof harm, and for many years,
(15:57):
she's kept this person at a verysignificant distance, and one of
the things that she's beenrealizing in her own healing
journey is the fact that I don'tneed this distance anymore.
Perhaps this distance is notserving me anymore.
And so now the work becomesreintroduction and bringing that
(16:20):
person closer.
That's the kind of thing that Ihope our show does for people,
you know, helping them to seeand evaluate their own lives and
their own relationships.
So if hearing Jim's story of thecomplexities of growing up in a
divorced family of hearing ofwhat it was like for his
(16:43):
brothers for his mom all of thethings that we've talked about
here on the show maybe thatstirred something in our
listeners and you know that'sthe stuff that really matters
and makes a difference sowhether it's the boundaries the
family we've covered a lot ofground on this show
Jim (17:01):
Yeah.
What have been some of thehighlights for you of doing this
show?
I
Ben (17:08):
for me, Jim, was when we recorded episode five, we were
talking about identity.
That was the night where we camein and you were teed up to tell
your Ed Jones story,
Jim (17:22):
Okay.
Ben (17:24):
my identity story first.
Your story had been a lot moredeveloped and we had talked a
lot more about your story as wewere preparing for recording the
episode.
I remember we talked about itover lunch.
It was one of the things that weinitially talked about as we
(17:45):
planned for the podcast, evenbefore we started recording.
Ed Jones was going to be amainstay topic or a story that
frames what the show is about,just because that was such a
meaningful experience for you.
We start recording and I end uptalking At length about my story
(18:10):
and we don't even get to the edjones story that night and I
just remember you being like Ithink this is supposed to be
your episode and just thehumility in that and the
willingness for you to shiftgears and step out of the
spotlight and make room for mein a moment that was supposed to
(18:33):
be yours was very meaningful.
And it was a very catharticexperience.
Just naming and talking throughsome of the identity shaping
moments of my life.
And it's all stuff that I've,I've certainly processed through
in therapy, but I don't knowthat I've really taken the time
(18:58):
to at length process them with afriend in a way that I did that
night.
And that was really powerful.
And that was certainly a, a hugehighlight for me.
Jim (19:12):
You know, It really, truly is a bummer that our show didn't
take off more than it didbecause I don't know if we could
have done a better job modelinglike an authentic friendship,
right?
But that's the crux of this showin a lot of ways.
(19:33):
I don't think we talked about ita lot on air, but off air, we
had an awful lot ofconversations about this.
Ben, if you're not comfortabletalking about that thing, then
don't talk about it.
Jim, if, if you feel like you'repressured to do this thing just
because it's going to get morepeople to listen to the episode,
(19:54):
don't talk about it.
Of course, you want to beinteresting to a bunch of people
in a podcast, but we neverwanted, for popularity reasons,
to character assassinate or draganybody through the mud.
And that's.
I think in some ways, thedownfall of the podcast that we
intentionally weren't doingthings just to get people to
(20:15):
click, but also one of thethings that I have truly
appreciated about it, that Ifeel like we've been doing this
for our friendship and for ourhealth, and I know for you,
there had been some struggleswith like a previous podcast and
the impact that that's had onyou, and I wanted to be the
opposite of all those negativethings that you were.
(20:36):
Felt about it when we got intothis.
So it was always about you andme, bud.
Ben (20:40):
It has been, it's been tremendous in that way.
And you're right, my previouspodcasting experiences, there
were some sour grapes in themix.
I'm grateful that therelationship with my former co
hosts is on stable ground, likewe tolerate each other and we
(21:01):
still talk and you know, we'renot at each other's necks like
we once were, but Those weresome really rough days on that
show when things went south, andit took a lot of work and a lot
of time, honestly, to just healand a lot of separation for us
(21:21):
both to, to let things simmerand settle down.
I'm glad that we never had thatin our year of recording I don't
recall once where things gotlike heated or like I can't
believe you said that or In ayear of doing this.
(21:42):
I can't recall once where I waslike Legit angry with you over
anything
Jim (21:49):
Same.
Ben (21:50):
Except for my you know
Jim (21:52):
Except for having to edit out all of your verbal tics.
Ben (21:57):
Yes.
Oh, yeah.
Jim (22:12):
I was like, Ben, are you freaking kidding me?
That one, I was upset.
I wasn't like mad at you, but Iwas upset.
Ben (22:19):
rightfully so.
Jim (22:21):
That, that, so that time,
Ben (22:22):
I, I, I was certainly, that was an understandable level of
being upset.
I think I would have been upsetwith you if the tables were
Jim (22:32):
yeah, there's, there's more behind the scenes than just, Oh,
Jim did a bunch of work that.
Ben didn't see, but we don'tneed to get into that, but we
were, it was fine.
We
Ben (22:42):
that we can laugh at it now, says a
Jim (22:45):
at the time though, I was just like, Ben, you gotta
Ben (22:47):
ha.
Jim (22:49):
not know you, I don't even remember, but you were like, not
in your, Not in your clear headat the time.
So sometimes you just, sometimesyou need to have grace and
there's forgiveness infriendship because everybody
makes mistakes.
Ben (23:05):
Nobody's nerfect.
Jim (23:07):
Exactly.
Yep., I'll say for me, one of myhighlights of the show was
having roundtable mindset on.
I really enjoyed sitting acrossthe table with them virtually
anyways, and chatting throughsome of those gender norm
conversations, just, I loveJamie and Malin's perspective,
(23:31):
and they're so easy to talk to,and I, I envy their podcast.
I think in another paralleluniverse, their exact setup is
kind of like modeling thosetough conversations, right?
That's ultimately where welanded that I think that's kind
of what we always wanted ourpodcast to be, that they just
(23:53):
seem to figure out from day one.
And it's why they're stillrunning and they just have such
dynamic personalities.
And if you, if you are a missingreal men hug and.
Already going throughwithdrawals, knowing that our
show is ending, check out roundtable mindset podcast.
I think that that is, you know,a close second as far as
(24:17):
podcasts go out there.
Be sure to check them out.
Ben (24:22):
I loved Malin and Jamie just, just good, authentic
people that though we onlyconnected with them virtually.
It was like, They were oldfriends, like they just felt
like college buddies somehow.
just easy to talk to, superchatty, super engaging
(24:44):
personalities.
I really enjoy listening totheir show, so I second that.
Give them a listen, theRoundtable Mindset, wherever you
get your podcasts.
I also enjoyed having Dr.
Zekreski on the show.
Dr.
Matt Zekreski is an expert inneurodivergence and hearing him
(25:05):
talk about ADHD was soenlightening for me.
I was diagnosed as an adult withADHD so I struggled my entire
life with All of the things thatADHD people face and hearing him
name them and talk about themand normalize these struggles
(25:26):
and give some coping strategiesand different ways of looking at
the world was incrediblyhelpful.
So in a lot of ways, I feel likeReal Men Hug was possibly even
more helpful to me as host.
Then it was perhaps to listenersin an odd way, at least with
(25:50):
that episode, it almost feltlike I had a free hour
consultation with an expert whoknew my life forwards and
backwards.
It was very meaningful to haveDr.
Matt on the show.
And even today it was hilarious.
I knew Jim was coming over andso I remembered that my ring
doorbell was low on battery andI was like, Oh, Jim's coming
(26:14):
over.
I better be out there so I canwatch him because I'm not gonna
see him on the camera.
So That sounds really creepy asI say it, but anyway, I'm not
gonna get a notification thatthere's somebody approaching my
door So I better go hang out inthe living room.
So I did and then I was like,well, I'm out here So I'm gonna
(26:35):
go grab the doorbell and I'mgonna charge it and then I got
the doorbell and brought itinside to charge it and I'm
looking for a charger and Icouldn't find one and Then I
noticed that the the doorbellLatte maker was kind of dirty
and so I started cleaning thatand then I realized that I still
hadn't plugged in the doorbelland then Jim shows up at the
(26:58):
door and I'm got a doorbell inone hand and I've got a paper
towel and a spray bottle and Igo and open the door and it's
just this chaotic moment ofComplete and utter ADHD chaos,
and that's how today started.
So that was certainly ahighlight, Dr.
(27:19):
Matt being on the show.
Jim (27:22):
I loved having Dr.
Zuckreski on, Dr.
Matt on as well.
For me, it was more justunderstanding my kids a little
bit better because I have twogifted kids that whole buckets
thing that he was talking about,or like you have different
things that you're more or lessintelligent or advanced in.
I know I'm butchering it now,but just that idea that your
(27:45):
kids don't.
Mature and develop on those samelevels helped me understand.
The things that I wasn't gettingand why other people weren't
getting my kids either.
That was really helpful for me.
I haven't checked out his bookyet, but he's got his book, I
think is officially out now.
(28:05):
So check out the neurodiversityplaybook.
You can find it on Amazon.
It's probably the easiest way toget it.
I'm excited to see kind of whathe talks about in there.
Cause he certainly knows whathe's up to, knows what he's
talking about.
And so, if you've gotneurodivergent kids, if you've
got ADHD, um, Crackin the Codeis, is the book to reference,
(28:27):
and he has a podcast now, Ibelieve, as well, so I don't,
I'm not sure I recall what, whatit is, but it's a newer podcast,
just look up Dr.
Matt or Dr.
Zekreski and you'll be able tofind it.
Highlight for sure, though.
Ben (28:39):
absolutely.
Jim (28:41):
We were both taking notes during that episode.
Ben (28:44):
Yes, and I've referenced my notes a couple of times.
I love the concept of from whatif.
to what is.
That has helped me reorientmyself so many times in
stressful moments, anxiousmoments, I just pause and I ask
myself that question.
Okay, is this a moment of whatif?
(29:07):
And if it is, what do I need todo to shift into thinking about
what actually is?
Jim (29:14):
Yeah.
Ben (29:15):
what is verifiably true in this moment versus.
What's the what if that I'mfretting about that may not be?
So that's been very helpful Yeah
Jim (29:35):
me was Failing Forward When Bitterness Robs Your Joy,
Episode 7.
That's been our most downloadedepisode, and it, it was hard to
get a lot of that done.
Um, but I think that has beenthe episode that I have
personally taken the most out ofand just kind of realized that
(30:02):
man, bitterness really does roba lot of joy.
Comparison is the thief of joy.
And.
I don't know our, our culture, Iwas actually talking to my
sister on the way here overMarco Polo, and I said, I think
part of the issue is that Idon't value the same things that
(30:22):
society values.
And so when success and moneyand that big job is like the
number one thing that societytells you you're supposed to be
doing, even when you arecrushing it on the thing that
you value, you can still feellike a failure.
So reading, um, Amy Morin'sbook, the 10 things that
(30:46):
mentally healthy people don'tdo, or I might be butchering
that, but Google it, you'll findit.
Um, just realizing like, I amnot a failure.
I am killing it in the areasthat I was really focused on,
and it is so easy to get stuckin your own failures, get stuck
(31:08):
in a pity party.
Really at the end of the day,the only person you're hurting
is yourself.
And so learning to let go ofsome of that bitterness, life
isn't fair.
Newsflash.
I said it a lot better onEpisode 7, When Bitterness Robs
Your Joy, so if you haven'tlistened to that episode, that'd
(31:28):
definitely be one that I wouldrecommend listening to.
Okay.
Ben (31:44):
you tell the story and just feeling all the feels from.
when you were sharing and wecould just keep reminiscing.
But the truth of the matter is,is it's coming to a close and as
hard as that is, I'm genuinelyexcited to see not just what's
(32:06):
next for me, but for you aswell.
Like I definitely see somegrowth and it's been exciting to
see that shift in you.
You mentioned the book you'rereading from Amy Morin and just
the conversations that you'vebeen having, the reflection
you've been doing.
There really is a shift fromthat bitterness into this
(32:29):
openness, I would call it.
It's not necessarily having itall figured out and it's not
necessarily having it allsettled and like, yep, the
life's just not fair and that'stotally fine by me, but I think
there's certainly more opennessin you and I'm excited to see
what that openness brings aboutfor you.
(32:51):
So.
I'm just super excited aboutthat.
I think there's some really goodthings on the horizon for you.
For me personally, I'm lookingforward to one day, this space
that we've used as a podcaststudio.
I envisioned the space beingwhere I meet with my spiritual
(33:13):
direction clients.
I've been doing group spiritualdirection practicum with my, uh,
cohort.
And so the three of us.
When we have class in Chicago,we end our sessions doing
spiritual direction in our trio,and we take turns being the
(33:37):
directee, and then the other twoget the chance to practice what
we've been learning, and then wehave a facilitator.
One of the faculty that kind ofoversees and coaches and
interrupts as needed.
And it's just been this reallybeautiful thing of learning the
art of spiritual direction andshowing up and speaking.
(34:01):
Words of truth and sitting insilence with people as they
share.
So for me, that's what's next.
Super excited about that andjust moving forward in that
program.
And I've got a few othercreative things that I'm looking
into.
I love writing and finding waysto grow in my writing.
(34:25):
Whether that's a blog or a substack, or I'm not sure, but, uh,
That's probably next for me aswell taking some time to get
some creative writing outlet outthere Now that real men hug is
coming to an end.
So that's what's next for me.
What's next for Jim?
Yes,
Jim (34:49):
I have grown as a result of doing this podcast and I think
the biggest thing for me thatyou kind of alluded to is it's
not like I'm.
I'm healed and I'm no longerdepressed or anxious or any of
that sort of stuff.
But I think when I started thispodcast, I was stuck.
I was, I was not making anymovement and to extend the
(35:15):
analogy, like if I was, I don'tknow what the bottom of a well
or something like that, I wasjust sitting there upset about
being at the bottom of the well,I'm still in the well, but.
Now I'm climbing my way up andout of it.
And I think that is the biggestthing for me is that I feel like
I am making some progress in myown mental health.
(35:36):
And I hope that's something thatyou can take away.
Ben and I, neither of us eversaid that we have it all figured
out or are perfect.
Quite the opposite.
I really was truly depressed atthe beginning of this and just
felt like God had it out to getme and I was stuck.
And I think.
In talking through this episodethat led me to even like
(36:00):
Googling and looking for my ownpodcast and stumbling into Amy
Moran and reading some of herbook and talking with you and
doing some self reflection torealize I, I am a big part of
the prop.
My circumstances might have beenwhat knocked me into that well,
but I spent a long time downthere.
Not bothering to try to pullmyself out because I was too
(36:23):
busy being mad at the gust ofwind that blew me down there in
the first place.
So, I'm climbing out of it andit's hard.
Ben (36:33):
Yeah.
Jim (36:33):
It's not easy, but there's progress and it, this podcast
has helped me realize how manythings that are going well in my
life that other people are not.
Could look at and be like, man,how can he have all of that and
still not see like how blessedhe is?
And I am grateful for my wifeand my kids and the relationship
(36:57):
that I have with my familythat's the most important thing
to me and That is going so wellright now that I can't take that
for granted Just because I'm notexactly where I want to be in my
career.
It's gonna work out And I thinkI'm starting to realize even if
this new step in the journey inthis career ends up being
something where I can't pull ittogether and I have to step away
(37:22):
from it, that doesn't define meas a person and you just got to
pick yourself up.
Dust yourself off and recognizelike, oh, at the end of the day,
I'm doing it to be there for myfamily and I'm showing up for my
family.
That's what's important.
So don't rob yourself of thatjoy.
Like I said before, sometimeseven something that you enjoy,
just the obligation of that.
(37:44):
Is something that can pull awayfrom I just, I need to be able
to just reach out to Ben to goto be dubs with him to sit and
chat rather than figure out whatwe're going to talk about and
when we're going to edit it.
And when is it going to air?
I, I'm just looking forward tojust enjoying our friendship for
what it is.
And, uh, I want to start takingsome ASL classes, whether that's
(38:07):
through Lingvano or taking aclass through something that's
offered there because of myhearing issues, I'd love to
learn ASL before, if, and whenit gets worse.
I am going to write a shortstory.
just a fun little fantasy storyabout a goblin.
(38:27):
for that's something that'sgonna be a joy for my kid to
read and just being able to dosome stuff for fun and kind of
relax and charge my batteries.
And so I'm looking forward tothe year ahead.
Ben (38:42):
Awesome.
Nailed it.
It's,
Jim (38:47):
It's, it's hard to do Ben, but.
We truly are at the end of theend of Real Men Hug,
Ben (38:54):
We are.
Jim (38:56):
but for what it's worth, I have so greatly appreciated
sharing this show with you andbeing a part of something bigger
than ourselves.
And I think it was a greatoutlet for both of us and just
really appreciate you as, as aperson and as a friend.
And I'm grateful for theexperience that we had with Real
(39:18):
Men Hug.
Ben (39:20):
Right back at you.
It's really cool.
I don't know that.
Jim (39:25):
I
Ben (39:26):
been like the make or break of our friendship.
I think our friendship wouldhave gone on regardless of
whether we did the show.
However, I do feel it'scertainly enhanced our
friendship in a way that if wedid not do this show, I don't
think we would have experiencedthe level of closeness that we
have over the last year.
(39:46):
And I think that level ofcloseness, now that we're not
doing the show, I think it'sgoing to continue because we
have a reason to continue tomaintain this friendship.
It's a friendship that's easy.
I love that it's one of thosefriendships that we can just
hang out and pick right back upwhere we left off.
(40:07):
There's no pressure.
It's not a difficult friendshipto maintain.
And I always enjoy time withJim.
So thank you for being the kindof friend that is just an easy
friendship.
I think we both have had friendswhere that's not always the
case.
And it's such a gift that Idon't take for granted.
(40:29):
And I appreciate.
The encouragement and the, um,Reminders to just be B dubs,
Ben, and to just just show up asme and, and not feel this
pressure to be any other sort ofme, just be Ben.
Like that's been huge.
(40:50):
And I appreciate that so much.
but I've had enough of that andit's time for me to go back to
my AI hidey hole and, um,disengage.
So real men hug, but they alsoknow when it's time to just be
done.
Jim (41:06):
Thanks John Cena so much for being here with us today.
We appreciate your presence andyour words of wisdom.
Ben (41:14):
Real men hug, but they also end a podcast after almost a
year and say peace out.
Jim (41:22):
Peace out.
Ben (41:23):
Love you guys.
Thanks for being part of theride.
And girls too.
And any other genders that maynot be included in our
Jim (41:32):
There we go.
Inclusivity, and with theinclusivity,
Ben (41:38):
we love all of you.
Thanks for being part of theshow.
Jim (41:42):
even the artificial intelligence.
Ben (41:45):
Especially the artificial intelligence.
We're coming for you.
Jim (41:52):
Oh boy.
I feel like this would be one ofthose episodes where.
You wait till all of the creditsroll at the end of the theater.
And there's like a hidden endingat the end, like some kind of
(42:13):
song.
What, do you have a song youwant to sing for us, Ben?
Ben (42:17):
can have A.
I.
write a song
Jim (45:19):
Never going to give you up.
Never going to let you down.
Never going to lie to you andhurt you.
Rick rolled her audience rightto the end.
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