February 29, 2024 • 72 mins
Dive into the deep end with us as Jim candidly unravels his career voyage, laying bare the trials he's faced. From career disappointments to grappling with depression and anxiety, he shares his journey with the honesty and candor that you find regularly on our podcast. Ben lends his insights and observations, having witnessed Jim's professional challenges. Together, they stress the vital role of community and seeking aid amidst adversity. Tune in for an authentic and relatable exchange.
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Episode Transcript
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Ben (00:03):
Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
On this show, we jump into thedeep end and talk about some of
the most challenging issues thatwe've faced in our lives.
And by doing that, we want toinvite you into the conversation
and encourage you to havesimilar conversations in your
life.
(00:23):
I'm Ben.
Jim (00:24):
And I'm Jim.
Ben (00:26):
Welcome to the show.
A couple of episodes ago, youhad the opportunity to hear my
story of how my identity wasformed.
That was an episode that bothJim and I were planning on
telling our stories that wererelated to identity.
But what ended up happening aswe recorded was a lot of the
focus shifted to my story and itwas a little bit awkward
(00:48):
because.
I, you know, was on a rolltelling my story and that's kind
of uncommon and it's an area oflife that I'm working on.
Being more open and vulnerablewith the people that I trust and
who have proven to be my people.
What ended up happening though,is poor Jim didn't get to tell
(01:10):
his story of identity in as muchdetail as I did.
So we figured, let's revisitthat.
And we're going to revisit itfrom a slightly different angle.
Instead of focusing on Jim'sidentity, which you'll hear
about, I'm speaking about Jim asif he's not in the room here
Jim (01:29):
with me sitting right across from you.
Ben (01:31):
Hi, Jim.
Jim (01:31):
Hi.
We record in studio facing eachother, in case you're curious.
Ben is kind of smirking at mewith his goatee and beautiful
mustache.
Ben (01:45):
Yes, it's a work of art.
It took a lot of time to grow.
Jim (01:49):
Let me just reel the tapes back a little bit when Ben is
apologizing for talking.
As much as Jim does, I, I lovedthat we got to hear your story
and sure it was in the shownotes that my story was, but
that was part of theconversation that it just made
(02:10):
more sense to talk about yourstory because that's the flow
that the conversation was takingand I don't.
Need to necessarily share minein the moment.
Trigger warning for thisepisode, I'm going to be talking
quite a lot about my anxiety anddepression.
And it gets pretty deep intothat depression, so if that's
something that you're strugglingwith right now, it might not be
(02:33):
the right episode for you.
But because I'm going throughsome depression right now, and I
went through a long period ofsome pretty significant anxiety,
it made sense for this show'sflavor to be a little bit more
about anxiety and depressionthat has my story as a
(02:53):
framework, if that makes sense.
Ben (02:56):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
As we talk about anxiety anddepression, not only is this a
theme or an experience you wentthrough Jim, but I'm over here
too.
Like these are things that havebeen very present in my life.
The earliest memories of anxietythat I have.
(03:16):
Have to do with tests and with,academic performance, losing
sleep in elementary and middleschool over things like tests or
book reports or things likethat.
And also I deal with socialanxiety.
A lot less today than in thepast.
(03:37):
It's something that I've beenworking hard on, but it's
definitely been a thing.
I tend to get pretty sweaty andworked up and anxious when I'm
around people under certaincircumstances.
I've had times where I was outprospecting for my sales jobs.
And just driving around thebuilding that I was supposed to
(03:57):
stop at repeatedly and nevergoing in through the door to
talk to the potential client.
So, as you tell your story, Ijust wanted to throw it out
there that you're not alone inthis.
I've definitely had my share ofAnxious moments, with all of the
losses that I discussed on theidentity episode.
(04:19):
Depression is also a pretty realthing.
So I'm right there with you.
Jim (04:24):
It's interesting that you mentioned your childhood because
for me.
I honestly don't think in spiteof what I did go through with,
you know, a divorce, my, myparents were separated when I
was, I think six or seven years,I think I was seven and they
divorced when I was 10.
Ben (04:41):
Oh, wow.
So there was a three yearperiod.
That's a long time when you're akid.
Jim (04:46):
I don't remember them together.
At all.
I remember each of themindividually, but never in the
same room.
Like I remember my mom readingto me.
Um, and like doing devotionswith me or, you know, talking at
the end of the night orwhatever.
And then I remember my dadplaying bear trap with me where
(05:06):
he would go on the floor and wewould try to race across his
legs and he would try to likegrab us and, and catch us and
bring us into his chest.
And that was something that weplayed with him a lot and we
really had fun doing that.
So that's a pretty formativememory for me as kids.
But again, those are.
I don't remember them reallytogether, but.
(05:30):
In spite of all of that, I'm notsaying that I didn't have any
adjustment issues at all, but myissues were more with
relationships, whether it befriendships or girlfriends or
things at the time, and theydidn't even really hit until
probably my teenage years, Ifeel like I was basically mostly
(05:52):
a happy kid and my idea ofdepression was That's it.
More of that adjustmentdisorder, for those who haven't
sat through a counseling classthat basically is you are sad
because somebody died or you'resad because Your parents had to
move and you had to leave yourschool and now you're sad.
(06:15):
That's not Depression that isyou're going through a tough
thing But you get over it, itcan lead to depression for sure.
But that's what I thought.
It's just, you know, like youget sad, but I was such a happy
kid.
I was totally wrong about the,the depths that depression can
(06:37):
reach and the chemical aspect ofit.
Something that I think a lot ofpeople don't understand for me,
especially with anxiety, itdoesn't always line up with
what's happening.
Right in that moment, you mighthave test anxiety and you freak
out right before the test andyou're panicking during the
(06:58):
test, or it could just be you'resitting in McDonald's eating a
Big Mac and all of a sudden youfeel like you're having a heart
attack that, that happened withme.
I was otherwise feeling fine.
And all of a sudden I had.
My first panic attack, and Ididn't know that was a thing.
(07:20):
And until I had really gonethrough enough life issues, I
didn't honestly know whatdepression is.
And I think a lot of people whohaven't been depressed think
they know what depression is.
And that's why they cansometimes be judgmental of
people who truly are depressed,or they have that attitude of
(07:42):
like, well, why don't you justget over it?
Just see the positive.
Or, you know, thoughts andprayers or something like that.
And you're just like, no, that,no, that, that's not helpful to
me.
Are there times where you havefelt like, why am I anxious
right now?
Or why do I feel so sad todaywhen I felt great yesterday?
Ben (08:06):
Yes.
It's not linear.
One theme that I'm picking up onin life is that life is never
linear.
There's never an easy,straightforward answer to
anything.
And if there is, it's usually acop out or somebody's not
willing to actually go deeper torealize that it's not linear and
(08:27):
it's just an easy answer.
With anxiety, Absolutely, Iremember in our college days, it
was always like 7 or 8 o'clockat night.
Though there was nothing duringthat time frame that was
happening that would cause meanxiety, just the lull and the
slowdown of the day left thisvoid and suddenly that void
(08:53):
would be overtaken with a panicattack, even though there's
nothing happening in that momentfor me to panic about.
It was like my brain and my bodyjust decided, Oh, we're not
doing anything right now.
Let's have a panic attack.
Yeah.
And I would go and walk by thepond on campus.
(09:13):
The only people that were aroundthe pond were couples making out
or, you know, theindividualistic kids.
That stayed away from others.
It was generally pretty quietand I knew where to go to be
alone.
I would just sit there and havea panic attack.
tell me about your panicattacks.
What do they look or feel likein the moment?
(09:36):
Like what's happening inside?
Jim (09:38):
I honestly, the first time I had a panic attack, I thought
I was having a heart attack.
I was having trouble breathing.
My chest felt tight.
I got really hot and I washaving trouble getting a full
breath of air and My heart wasabsolutely racing and I thought
(10:00):
like, Oh my goodness, I don'tknow enough about heart attacks
to know if it's like, wait,would your heart be racing or
how does that work?
Is it part of it's not working?
Ben (10:09):
I think it's probably different for everybody.
Jim (10:12):
I digress.
It felt like what I presumed aheart attack would be and I was
in the middle of a trainingsession for my Newly received a
job at Edward Jones that I hadalready been through a really
significantly stressful timeThat it's just like my brain
caught up with me and I'm in themiddle of class and they're
(10:33):
talking it is not a break I'mnot supposed to get up, but I'm
like I have to leave I have toget up and I didn't even say
anything to Anybody I justthought well, I guess I'm gonna
die in the hallway because Ithink my thought was they had
mentioned that there's somebodyavailable to you, like for
whatever reason, becauseprobably not uncommon for people
(10:54):
to have panic attacks.
and I ended up having to go tothe med center nearby, and this
was out of state in St.
Louis, where their headquartersis, and got checked up and ran
my vitals because a lot of thesymptoms are scary things, but
(11:16):
EKG and do those tests, I wasperfectly fine, and by the time
that I got to the med center, Iwas fine.
And that's usually the way thatmy anxiety attacks work is it's
just this momentary thing.
It can be anywhere from a fewminutes to maybe 15 or 20
(11:37):
minutes that I'm feeling that.
And then they go away.
I was at location in a job thathad been very stressful to me,
but we were just talking aboutthe job and doing like mock
scenarios, which is somethingthat I honestly kind of enjoy.
Ben (11:54):
Yeah, you would be really good at that.
It's like improv.
Jim (11:57):
So.
It was to me kind of fun what wewere doing because there was
nothing behind it, right?
There was no stress behind itbecause this is just a mock
scenario and I was doing reallywell.
Honestly, people werecomplimenting me for how I was
doing, but my body didn't care.
And so.
I had a panic attack.
(12:18):
Have you heard of this HALTacronym before?
Hurry and lighten tenaciously.
Yup.
Nailed it.
No, you got not a single word ofthat.
Correct.
It stands for hungry.
Angry, lonely, and tired.
(12:38):
You mentioned how a lot of timesyour depression and anxiety can
hit you at night.
You could be all of those thingsat night time.
Yeah, it's true.
You're by yourself, you'reobviously tired, or sometimes
tired.
You might be angry aboutsomething that happened during
the day.
And for me, a lot of times I goto bed and I'm like hungry
because it's been a few hourssince I've eaten.
(12:58):
And it's like, man, I couldreally use a snack right now.
So you can be all of thosethings and that can trigger that
depression, that anxiety, andyou have a minute to slow down
where there's nothing else youneed to do, but fall asleep.
And all of a sudden all thosethoughts pop into your head.
So I have that too.
(13:18):
Some of my darkest thoughts andsome of my most self defeating
thoughts happen at night andwhen I'm in the shower.
I get both in the shower, I can,you, the warm water's hitting
you, the hot water's hitting youand you feel great and it's
refreshing and other times it'sall I'm doing is washing myself
(13:42):
and I have time to think abouthow this is not how I thought my
life would be at this point.
Ben (13:48):
Yeah, it's an idle moment.
What are you going to fill thattime with?
Jim (13:52):
It's an idle moment, yep.
Ben (13:55):
Well, let's go back in time a little bit.
What led up to the panic attackat the training event?
Was this like a completely newthing that happened for you?
Walk us through that.
Jim (14:11):
I think I might have had a panic attack or two in my entire
life up until that point, whichwould have been, you know, my
late thirties or at least midthirties at that point.
But nothing that I was evensevere enough that I would have
known to call it a panic attack.
What it comes down to is I thinkI have always been a pretty
(14:32):
mentally tough person for peoplewho know me, they might think,
Oh, no, Jim's really sensitive,but there's a difference between
being sensitive and beingmentally weak.
Ben (14:44):
Yes.
Jim (14:45):
Those things are not mutually exclusive.
And I think that people getconfused by that because they
think, why are you so sensitive?
You've heard that.
Ben (14:54):
Oh, all the time.
Jim (14:55):
I've heard that.
Going through a divorce as ayoung kid, and going back from
house to house, And the turmoilthat was happening through all
of that thing.
And my dad getting remarried andmy mom having to go back to
school.
And there was a lot of bouncingaround and trying to work things
out.
(15:15):
I could have and should havebeen falling apart and been sad
and been lashing out.
And who knows getting into drugsor drinking or the wrong crowd
of people.
I didn't do any of that.
I had.
Really good mental defenses inplace, but what can happen even
when you're good at those sortof things is just like any old
(15:39):
wall.
If somebody is launchingcatapults, they don't just
evenly disperse it.
They look and try to find whatthe weakest point in the wall
is, and they keep nailing thatone particular part of the wall.
And that's what happened to mewith my career.
I just kept getting hit afterhit, after hit, after hit, in
(16:00):
spite of what I genuinely feelwere strong mental defenses.
Eventually, thick as that wallwas, it came down.
And now anybody can just walkinto what I've been trying to
protect and that vulnerabilitythat lies behind those mental
defenses that I have for myself.
Ben (16:23):
As an observer, I've had the chance to watch some of the
hits come against that wall.
And the thing that bothers methe most about your story is
you.
are naturally gifted at all ofthe jobs that you had.
You have the aptitude, you havethe think on your feet skills,
(16:46):
you are incredible with people.
I think that's the thing thatjust gets me.
It'd be one thing if you didn'thave tough skin, you didn't have
the mental toughness, and ofcourse you just kind of fall
apart to have all of the talentsand abilities and experience and
charisma and everything elsethat you have, man, I can
(17:10):
imagine it would really start tohurt when all those walls keep
getting pinged time and timeagain.
Jim (17:18):
I appreciate that, Ben, that compliment, but also you're
absolutely right that it's It'sa sore spot for me, and it
leaves me wondering the samething, specifically with my job
at Edward Jones.
For those of you who aren'tfamiliar, Edward Jones is a
national, um, financial advisorfirm.
(17:38):
I worked there as a financialadvisor for a couple of years
before eventually, for my ownmental health and sanity, I
decided to quit.
When I joined that job, theywere blown away.
By my interview and all of thetimes that I went through for an
assessment of how I would run ameeting or how I would prospect
(18:00):
door to door or all of thosedifferent things.
I was hitting it.
I was nailing it.
And people were like, you aregoing to be successful at this
career.
And so to turn around and tofail so spectacularly, not only
was confusing for me, but.
It also made me angry becausethere are so many talking heads
out there that say, you justhave to keep driving and give a
(18:22):
hundred percent and, you know,knock on the next door.
I worked harder than the twopeople that I am closest to were
successful and I failed and Ithink both of them would even
agree that.
I was working harder than theywere.
I was knocking on doors all day,and then when it got past the
(18:46):
point where I was even allowedto, I was either making calls or
doing emails or taking the breakto do the meeting, and it was
just not working.
So give me a typical day atEdward Jones.
What time in the morning are youstarting, and when do you Like
(19:07):
actually stop working for thatday.
Prospecting hours.
I can't remember exactly, but itwas essentially like a nine to
six or seven just knocking ondoors other than taking a break.
If I remember, I think we weresupposed to get like 40 names on
a list and you're hoping thatyou could at least get 10
(19:30):
numbers or something like that.
I was really good at gettingpeople's phone numbers.
They had kind of some strategiesin place, but I found something
that worked well for me that Icould get people's phone
numbers.
I just really struggled toconvince them to come into the
meeting.
And some of it was the timing ofthat because COVID hit.
(19:53):
Um, right in the middle of that,that was part of that
circumstantial stuff.
I mentioned that I get so madbecause people say, Oh, you just
got to crunch and you got tokeep pushing and you just have
to do the hard work because itworked for them and very few
people who are successful inbusiness like that will lend.
(20:14):
Anything to luck or privilegewhatsoever.
It's just, well, I worked hardand if you worked hard like me,
then you would be successfullike me.
No, false.
I categorically disagree withthat.
Some people worked harder thanyou and are more naturally
talented than you at the thingthat you were successful at and
(20:35):
they failed.
You just don't hear thosestories.
They filter out.
It's, it's that survivorshipbias.
The people who are successful,they think of what they did to
get there.
And it's because of them thatthey were successful.
And it drives me so nuts.
Cause I gave 110 percent of whoI am and it wasn't enough.
(21:00):
You did all of the things.
I mean, you started a networkinggroup.
I remember talking with youabout prospecting methods.
Like you were doing all thethings and it wasn't working.
Ben (21:14):
It was infuriating for me to watch that because it made no
sense to me.
And I didn't know what to do formy friend, Jim, as he's going
through that.
And it was also COVID.
I started a new job around thattime as well, a job that.
I absolutely hated.
(21:35):
I worked for a nationally knownsecurity company, and much like
Jim at Ed Jones I had all of thethings I needed to be
successful.
I had great conversations.
I actually sold a lot of deals.
I did not get paid for the dealsthat I sold because COVID I
(21:57):
would not get paid until thesystem was installed.
So even though I made the sale,the money hadn't been collected,
therefore I don't get paid.
Here's the thing I got out ofthat.
Pretty quickly and landed in areally good spot.
And it was so hard to see youstuck at Ed Jones.
(22:20):
It was a hard time for me.
Jim (22:22):
Yeah.
As frustrating as that was, itwas just the worst, the next and
the worst in a line of failuresin my career.
I, for the first 12 years of mycareer, worked in higher
education, in studentdevelopment, and I slowly was
progressing, but I wasn'taggressive about it.
(22:44):
I enjoyed the position that Iwas in.
For a lot of that, I didn't havekids yet.
And my wife and I were justreally enjoying being on campus.
Being around college students,being involved in campus life,
it was great.
And so, and you're young, theworld is your oyster and you
have plenty of time to redirect.
(23:05):
So it wasn't like everythingthat I ever tried.
Crumpled in my hands in 2015.
It was May 5th, 2015.
I scheduled an appointment withthe vice president of student
development to talk to him abouthow I could be more involved
(23:26):
because I felt like I wasn'tbeing fully utilized for how.
passionate I was about the job.
What I know now, and would havebeen a huge warning sign, is
they were basically trying toslowly take responsibilities
away from me, knowing that myposition was about to be
eliminated.
(23:47):
I was told my position waseliminated at a meeting that I
scheduled with the vicepresident.
And I'm not even gonna saythat's a bad move.
In fact, In a way, I kind ofthink it was a good move because
there wasn't a, Hey, you need tocome and talk to me.
The con of what I honestly dothink is not a bad thing.
(24:10):
What he did is that I wastotally blindsided by it to me.
There were no warnings.
I was not in on any of theconversations about how tight
the budget was.
I wasn't in on thoseconversations.
So to me, just all of a sudden,what I thought was a secure job,
and I had even told them that Iwas planning on leaving in the
next year because while Ienjoyed working there, I wanted
(24:35):
to take a step up.
I had told them that, andunfortunately all of that kind
of got.
Rob for me.
The rug gets pulled out fromunder my feet.
I'm sorry.
Your position is beingeliminated the heaviness of that
You have to understand thiswasn't just a job This was my
entire community and my homewhich was attached to my job and
(25:02):
that sense of security All of asudden, I need to move out and I
have no idea what the future isgoing to hold.
It's just all gone.
Ben (25:13):
In a meeting that you scheduled.
Jim (25:15):
In a meeting that I scheduled.
Ben (25:17):
Wow.
Jim (25:18):
I had a love and hate relationship with my job at the
university.
Some of my best years werethere, but I was also not
treated well, a lot of the timethere, I'm not going to say
everybody was terrible andeverything was bad.
I was done dirty as one of myfriends said to me after I was
(25:41):
let go, I went through a periodwhere I had to.
Re interview for my job andeverybody had to re interview
for the job.
Basically, you don't knowwhether you have your job or
not.
I had this big beef with campusservices because essentially
(26:01):
they were treating me as if Iwas a professor complaining
about his classroom.
But it was my home, when likewater is leaking into the
apartment, that's a big deal.
And they're treating it likeit's a work order that we'll get
to eventually.
I still had anxiety, but thepervasive anxiety that didn't go
(26:25):
away, even when.
There wasn't an anxietyproducing situation.
The genesis of that eventabsolutely was losing my job.
You mentioned your identitybeing wrapped up in being a
traveling speaker and whateverybody expected you to be.
You were good at it.
You were nailing it.
(26:46):
You were young and yet stillthis aspiring great guy that
people had sought out.
That's how I felt in this role.
I felt like I was respected.
I felt like people liked me.
There was this huge identitypiece that was woven into who I
(27:08):
was, that felt like it wasshattered because I thought if
they really valued me.
They would find a way to makethis work.
And especially when I went tothe next school and found myself
on the other side of thatconversation, where we have to
(27:29):
get rid of some money and movesome money around, somebody
suggested, well, what if we getrid of this person?
And I said, no, they are toovaluable to our team.
We need to figure it out.
I went to bat for that person.
The people that you really needon your team, you find a way to
make it work.
And I apparently was not thatperson.
(27:51):
And that hit me so hard.
I thought that I was great inthis job and it was interesting
when.
I was let go because I wasn'tfired on the spot.
I was actually given some timebecause graciously they
recognized this is his home too.
(28:11):
I'm still like in on teammeetings even though I've been
fired effectively.
Ben (28:15):
Were you convinced that that was the end?
Or did you leave with an inklingof hope that maybe this can be
turned around?
Jim (28:23):
No, I knew it was done.
In fact, I had brought, I thinkit was two sheets of paper front
and back with bullet points ofall the different things that I
wanted to discuss in thatmeeting.
And I said, well, I guess wedon't need to go over these.
And I put it down on the table.
And I remember.
The vice president said, wow,because it was this categorized
(28:47):
list of, Hey, these are thingsthat I think I can do to help
the team.
Ben (28:52):
Was the emotion pretty high as you put that list down on the
table?
What was that like?
Jim (28:57):
I think he was pretty gutted about it too.
And I do wonder, we never talkedabout it.
I.
Had brought up doing lunch.
He was in a position ofauthority over me I thought it
might kind of help iron out someof that stuff and he just never
(29:18):
followed up.
I'm not bitter against him.
Don't get me wrong.
I think that he was gutted aswell.
I do wonder in hindsight, if heregrets how it happened and
whether it even should havehappened, but I don't know.
It just so happens that he wasthe one who said the words that
will forever echo in my head,your position has been
(29:41):
eliminated.
Ben (29:43):
That's heavy.
Jim (29:44):
It's burnt into the core of who I am.
You're a failure.
Ben (29:52):
Did those words come to the surface as you are trying to
make Edward Jones work?
Jim (29:57):
No.
Ben (29:58):
Really?
Jim (29:59):
Honestly, when I got the position at Edward Jones, I
remember getting a call on theweekend right after this
intensive vetting process, whichI think is great.
Why not give them a brutalvetting process and weed out
people that can't cut mustard?
(30:20):
So they had basically, it was aday in the life of a financial
advisor.
And you had to organize,prioritize, who are you going to
call?
Who are you not going to call?
Are you going to take thatmeeting?
And then I also had technologyproblems in the middle of it,
which I think ended up workingto my favor because it wasn't my
fault, but I managed to switchmy browser on my computer to
(30:45):
problem solve that there was acomponent of the test that
wasn't working.
And so I had to waste, quoteunquote, 10 minutes of a very
rigorous, you don't want to losea minute process to fix a
technical issue.
And so, they saw that as, wow,like in spite of that obstacle,
he didn't fall apart.
(31:07):
And so I absolutely nailed thattest.
And.
I think it was the same day theguy called me and he said, Hey,
we're getting into the weekend.
I don't want to wait.
And I know you're not going towant to wait.
So I just wanted to let you knowthat you got the job.
And I hung up the phone and Isaid, yes.
(31:33):
That's the first time I've hadto be bleeped.
Isn't it bad?
I was elated that I had thisgreat opportunity for my family.
I just landed a job at a fortune500 company in a job that I am
good at.
And people are telling me thatsounds like something that you
would be really good at.
(31:54):
It was almost like thisimmediate, I'm not a failure.
I nailed that interview.
it was like 7 percent of thepeople that had even gone
through that whole process.
I went through all of the othersteps.
I took all the tests.
I passed every single test.
First try.
Some people, they're three triesin before they finally pass
(32:15):
those tests.
I was hitting everything all theway through that.
I felt like I'm going to have alife where I'm not constantly
worried about how I'm going topay my bills and feeling like a
failure as a husband, as afather, this is it.
This is my moment.
It's finally changing for me.
And then I stepped into it and.
(32:38):
It didn't work.
Ben (32:39):
How long was the span of time from the F yes, I got the
great job.
It's amazing.
I'm going to provide for all ofmy family's needs.
This is awesome.
What was the span of time fromthat moment to.
When you noticed the wheels werestarting to fall off
Jim (32:58):
door to door knocking.
I actually was pretty good atit.
My issue with door to doorprospecting was that I always
felt like I was inconveniencingpeople because I am, I'm
intruding into their day.
They don't want me there for themost part.
Some people were nice.
(33:19):
Rarely, you got people that werelike, I have been wanting to
talk to.
A financial advisor.
And I'm so glad that you showedup today.
That actually did happen ahandful of times, and I ended up
with at least one of those as aclient and it was one of my
favorite clients.
That's awesome.
Ben (33:38):
Right place, right time.
Jim (33:39):
Yeah, exactly.
And even on the other end, it'sprobably like 1 percent like
that and 1 percent that weregenuinely rude to you.
But it was so hard for me that Ifelt like this inconvenience
that that anxiety slowly wasbuilding.
It was like that catapult blastagainst my wall.
(34:00):
I always felt like I was beingan inconvenience to them.
Even when I had those goodconversations where I felt like
I was nailing it, one of mybuddies that I networked with at
the time called it desperationcologne.
Even if you feel like you'renailing the pitch, they can
smell that you need them to sayyes.
(34:25):
I didn't have it right away, butwhen I circumstantially, for
whatever reason, got so many ofthose, no thank yous, it started
kind of giving me.
A little bit of a complex andthen almost right after I
actually am able to startcalling people COVID hits,
Ben (34:46):
of course.
Jim (34:48):
I can't even doorknock anymore.
Right.
And then I come to find out theyhad given me the wrong number.
I had a direct line to my officeand they gave me a dead number
that went nowhere.
So all these people that I wasgiving them my number to, that
just weren't quite ready, theycouldn't reach out to me.
(35:09):
Then COVID hits now I can'tknock on doors and I have not
been trained how to prospect anyother way.
And I just have to kind of tryto figure it out.
And everybody that I call.
Understandably says, let's waitfor this whole thing to blow
over.
You remember how long COVIDlasted?
Ben (35:30):
Yeah.
Jim (35:32):
And there's a scale at Edward Jones where they actually
matched to some degree yourprevious salary.
That was what attracted me toit.
That I didn't have to be whollycommission based.
But the salary they paid youwent progressively down.
Yep, as your commission went up.
Ben (35:49):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's pretty normal innormal circumstances.
Jim (35:54):
If you are meeting the standards and expectations that
we want you to Otherwise, we'lljust pay you less than any other
financial firm And continue topay you less and less of that
stipend.
So now I'm at a point where I'mactually getting paid less
because they are taking more ofmy commission than a different
(36:15):
place would have taken.
And I'm getting paid in less andless.
So every month, even though Iactually was bringing in more
and more money every month, Iwas getting a little bit better
and a little bit better.
I was getting paid less and lessand less money to the point
where.
We couldn't afford to reallylive anymore.
Now we would have pushed throughit if I had been more successful
(36:37):
and my mental health wasn't intatters at that point, but it
was kind of that insult toinjury that even though I was
actually getting better at myjob, they were paying me less.
Ben (36:50):
Yep.
I can relate.
It was the same with ADT.
Again, when I started, they putme on a stipend very similar to
yours that gradually went downbecause the idea is as it goes
down, you're selling more andyour earnings are coming from
your commission.
With a worldwide pandemic saleshave a way of slowing down and
(37:11):
I'm sure it was the same withpeople's money.
Jim (37:15):
Yeah.
People didn't want to move.
They didn't want to do anything.
They just wanted to wait tofigure out what was happening
with this.
That is not when people.
Wanted to shift anything over.
And we were also going through aperiod of time where it was like
10 years of prosperity.
The worst financial advisor onthe planet was still pumping out
(37:39):
great numbers for their clients.
So why would you change for thenew guy who shows up during
COVID?
I basically had one month andsome change to pull in all the
people that I had gotten thosephone numbers for and then COVID
hits.
Ben (37:56):
How was that one month?
Was it successful?
Jim (38:00):
It was pretty successful.
It brought me enough that itallowed me to absorb the not
great month or two that cameafter that.
But then it just got worse andit got worse and then I got
COVID.
And so now I have to take timeoff.
COVID hit me hard.
(38:20):
It slammed me so hard.
And I was in bed for.
A few days where I basicallyonly got up to go to the
bathroom.
So my muscles were really weak.
I'm about to go back into theoffice.
And I go to pull my pajama pantson in the bathroom and because I
(38:41):
had been bedridden and then allof a sudden I bent over and pull
up my pants at the same time.
It sounds funny.
I was just putting on pants, butI threw out my back bad, the
worst I have ever thrown out myback.
I almost.
Immediately fell to the floor.
I managed to catch myself on thecounter and I managed to grab
(39:01):
like the door frames to.
Pull myself to bed because thatcore was gone so much that it
didn't feel like I would've evenbeen able to crawl.
Ben (39:13):
Man.
Jim (39:14):
This happened on like a Saturday or a Sunday and I was
supposed to go back on Mondayafter being out with, after
being out with COVID, not onlywas I sick for a long time, but
at the time they had a policywhere you had to be symptom free
for 14 days.
I think it was 10 to 14 days, soI'm sick for like 10 days and
(39:37):
then I have to stay out of theoffice for like 10 to 14 days
after that.
I enjoyed the break.
I'm going to be honest becauseit was such a stressful job at
that point.
I ended up on two pips, whichare performance improvement
plans.
The third pip, they fire you.
So I think I already had had.
Two pips and both of them wereexceptions that they don't
(40:01):
always grant.
I didn't hit the standard thatyou wanted me to, but I had
money that was about to come in.
That was promised.
The meeting is set.
We're just waiting for the moneyto hit the branch and it hasn't
yet.
So two exception pips and I'm onmy way to a third, I throw out
my back and I call HR and theywere like short term disability
(40:24):
and I was like, I'm not.
Disabled.
And the lady was so nice, butshe basically was like, yeah,
you are no, you're disabled.
Think about how long you've beenout of the office.
This is literally what shortterm disability was written for
this very situation.
I was put on short termdisability.
That ended up being a little bitof a blessing too, cause I got
(40:45):
paid for all that time that Iwas off and then the metrics
kind of paused during that time.
But the problem with the metricspausing is you think you're
doing well.
And then all of a sudden.
Everything slams up next to youand catches up to you where I
thought my best month.
(41:05):
I'm like, I'm doing great.
I'm finally going to be at leastmeeting expectations.
Other than that first month, Iwas always below expectations
enough to not get fired.
And I was like, next month ornext time those metrics uptick,
I'm going to be meetingexpectations.
And then all of the short termdisability stuff caught up and
(41:29):
it dropped back down way lowerthan it had been before.
So I called St.
Louis and I'm like, whathappened?
I was doing better.
And it just kept being stufflike that where I could never
get ahead.
I was getting paid less and lessand less.
What I think was supposed to bean inspirational talk from a
couple of the advisors in thearea that led me to realize I
(41:52):
had to quit this job.
One of them said, Hey, look atme.
I just had my second worst monthever.
And I've been doing this foryears.
Sometimes you just have a bad goat it and you just got to keep
on plugging on.
Well, he had pulled up hismetrics.
His second worst was better thanall but I think my best month.
(42:20):
When you talk about the struggleto bring in finances, you don't
see me in that conversation.
You, Talk about struggling, butyou never actually really
struggled.
You were bringing in enoughmoney that in your worst month
balanced with the three monthsthat were exceeding expectations
(42:40):
before that you never were notmeeting expectations.
And in fact, we're alwaysexceeding expectations.
That's not struggle.
Yeah.
And so I'm in this point thateven though I've been told by so
many people, you're going to dogreat at this job.
I was always below expectations.
I got to the point where just toget out of the car, I had to
(43:03):
take anxiety medication everyday.
If I didn't take it.
I was frozen in the car Iremember calling my wife and
saying, I'm in the churchparking lot next to this
neighborhood that I'm supposedto prospect.
I can't get out of the car.
I would circle the neighborhood,come back and I'm, parked in
(43:25):
this church parking lot becauseit was a public place to park.
I don't know how I'm supposed toget out of the car.
And I, and I didn't want to takethe medication.
And so sometimes I would take itwith me if my wife convinced me
that it's okay to take themedication.
And so I would, I would have toliterally had to take
(43:46):
medication.
And then I talked to my doctorabout it and eventually ended up
on an antidepressant because Iwas so down.
And then I started losing sleep,so they put me on another, it
was a twofer.
It was to help me sleep, butalso it was another
antidepressant.
Okay.
So I was on two antidepressantsand anxiety meds and I still was
(44:08):
absolutely falling apart.
And that's what happened in St.
Louis.
My wife had to convince me to gobecause I said, I can't do this
anymore.
It's too much I can't do it.
I thought I could, I knew it wasgoing to be tough and you just
have to push through, but it'stoo much.
I can't do it.
(44:28):
And she basically was like, atfirst she kind of started
acquiescing and then she waslike, no, you have tried too
hard to do this.
You're going on this trainingthing.
You have to go.
And I went and I'm glad shepushed me and I had a good time,
but yeah, then I had my panicattack in the middle of class.
(44:49):
I ended up going to the hospitaland when I came back, it just
was this continued litany of itwas never enough.
It was never enough.
I think I had already had theconversation with one financial
advisor about his second worstmonth.
And then another financialadvisor called me.
And he was like, dude, you needto be pulling in 500,000 every
(45:11):
month.
And I'm like, I have never oncebrought in$500,000 in a single
month and you're telling me Ihave to do it every month.
I am trying my hardest.
You have to understand that he,when he tried his hardest, was
bringing in half a milliondollars.
So he believes to this day thatif you try your hardest, you
(45:35):
bring in half a million dollars.
I think he.
Would take umbrage with mesitting here saying that for
some people you can try yourhardest and it still doesn't
happen, but I can say it becauseit's what happened with me.
Yeah.
Some people might've looked atmy last few months and said, Oh,
you know, but he gave up.
And it's not untrue because atthat point I had already decided
(45:58):
I'm done with this.
It was just a timing thing.
And so I was doing more accountmanagement and trying to serve
my clients well.
So I wasn't bringing in a bunchof extra.
But other than those last coupleof months, I tried harder than I
have ever tried in a job in myentire life.
I was putting 60 to 70 hours inevery week.
And some people might say, whynot 80?
(46:20):
Why not 90?
I was not physically andmentally capable of putting in a
single extra hour than what Idid.
Ben (46:28):
Now, what was the standard for the other Ed Jones reps?
Were they working 60, 70 hours?
What's the norm to besuccessful?
Jim (46:36):
No, the two guys that I'm comparing myself to, and I love
both of them.
One of them was kind of a localcelebrity and a great guy and
amazing personality and anatural salesman.
So he nailed it out of the parkwithout trying.
Sure.
No offense to that guy becausehe did try and he's a hard
worker, but he was alreadytaking regular vacations with
(46:59):
the family taking weekends off.
I think just to say that he did,he might have knocked on a door
or two, but he was so wellconnected that he was, it was a
given that this guy COVID wasnot going to stop him from
being.
Successful he, and he's killingit.
Absolutely is.
The other guy was in a morerural area with one other
(47:20):
financial advisor who had workedat the biggest company in the
area that got bought out byanother company, which unlocked
all of the 401ks in that companyfor their old buddy, old pal,
who is now the only financialadvisor that takes accounts
under 10 million.
I mean, it was just one of thosethings that same thing he was.
(47:41):
Go in hunting every weekend,camping with his family.
Yeah.
Hardworking guy, but did he workhard as me?
He would say no, absolutely not.
Not even close.
And he was an over night successand I failed.
Ben (47:55):
So you are literally running circles around your
peers in the same job and you'renot getting the success that
they have.
That is heavy.
Yeah, man,
Jim (48:08):
other people washed out to the washout rate for financial
advisors is incredibly high.
But my personality, my skill setand how much work I was putting
into it, I genuinely thought itIt has to happen.
It's just other people don'thave the fortitude to make it
through the hard times.
I did it for two years.
Ben (48:29):
That's a long time.
Jim (48:30):
I did it for two years.
I stuck it out in spite of poorperformance.
Cause all those people that talkabout, you just have to stick it
out, have never been on a PIP intheir life.
It just worked out for them.
Oh yeah, it was hard for me.
No, it wasn't.
It wasn't.
You, you stepped into a job thatyou were successful at and then
(48:51):
you just got even better andyou're basically saying, can you
sense the bitterness there alittle bit?
I struggle with that.
I do because I really wanted tobe successful.
That's why we were talking aboutthat identity topic because for
me it was wrapped up in so muchthat I was just killing myself
over it.
(49:12):
Yeah.
Ben (49:13):
You mentioned the bitterness that you had.
After seeing those individuals,and their success, and hearing
their stories.
What connection do you see thatbitterness having with the
depression and anxiety?
Are they separate from eachother or do you think perhaps
(49:34):
the bitterness fueled some ofthe anxiety and depression?
Jim (49:40):
I don't know how to answer your question.
Did it fuel some of thatanxiety?
I think it was not the reasonwhy I left.
I was having deeply physical.
Uncontrollable symptoms from thedepth of my anxiety that I had
(50:01):
over pushing myself so hard andpressuring myself so hard to
make those sales.
But when you're in the moment,your sales face is on and
everything's great.
I'm just happy and I'm here tohelp you on the best thing since
sliced bread.
You just have to keep going onand pretending like you're not
falling apart.
It was having a physical toll onmy body where I was buzzing at
(50:25):
night when I went to sleep.
My skin was buzzing.
I felt like my legs were liftingup in the air even though they
weren't moving.
I was having daily panicattacks, multiple panic attacks
in a day.
Even with medication, I had atleast two, if not sometimes
three or four panic attacks aday.
I pushed myself to the raggededge.
(50:46):
I could not do it anymore.
It was just this very physicalreaction that I couldn't shake.
And it was actually my wife thatessentially gave me permission
to quit.
We both were invested in this.
We had put so much time andenergy.
It's that sunk cost thing,right?
I've done so much to get as faras I have.
(51:10):
But my wife said, Jim, you arenot yourself anymore.
You can't keep doing this job.
It's not worth it at that point.
And so I was like, you're right.
I, I tried my hardest.
I was the guy that that checkkept getting punted down the
road for other people.
They get it right away.
And that's the shot in the armthat they need to continue.
(51:31):
Yeah.
I don't know a whole lot ofpeople who make it.
As far as I did failing as muchas I did, there wasn't anybody
else in our region.
So I, I was doing the worst forstill being there out of anybody
else in the region becauseeverybody else quit.
I don't think anybody in mycohort anyways, I don't think
(51:54):
anybody failed out.
It was all, it was so much thatthey quit.
Sure.
So I, I was too now obviouslytechnically I quit too, but I
was two pips in and I wasperilously close to that third
pip.
It was pretty much effectivelythat, yeah, I wasn't going to
(52:15):
make it, man.
So it was tough.
And so that became Jim'sidentity.
I am a failure.
I am not good at anything.
Nobody cares about you, youfailed your family, you are
going to be stuck in a job forthe rest of your life.
(52:37):
Yeah, man.
So, that's the part of it whereI can get over things and I am,
I'm working on trying torecognize that your job doesn't
define you, but there is thatcomponent that when you're under
a certain point, there's nothingyou can do about the fact that
(52:58):
you want to do something and youjust can't do it right as great
as your budgeting in this marketright now.
I am so fortunate that we boughta house when we did before the
market exploded.
I wasn't one of those luckysouls that bought it back in
like 2008.
We did buy it before it wentcrazy.
And what was the 2020, 2021during COVID.
(53:22):
Yeah, it just skyrocketed and webought it right before that.
So we were already thinking,wow, man, we bought the house at
the worst time.
We could have gotten such anicer house if we would have,
or, or so much cheaper of ahouse for the same house.
And then.
When we landed it and we saw theprices going up and up and up.
So don't get me wrong.
(53:43):
I know that I'm lucky.
And when I look from a globalscale or even national scale, I
know I'm blessed to be in theposition that I am, that I have
a house, that I have a car, warmfood, electricity, all of that
kind of stuff, but I'm not goingto be going on the annual
vacation to Disney.
And that's the part that it'shard to mentally get over it's
(54:04):
something that I'm working onfor sure, but there is that
level that, yeah, I want to makea certain amount of money that
I'm not, feeling like I'm alwaysdrowning from a financial
standpoint.
Ben (54:17):
How did your kids respond?
What impact did that season atEdward Jones have on your boys?
Jim (54:26):
I think that my boys were young enough that it didn't have
a huge impact on them.
And, as I've mentioned before,That is one of my strengths that
in spite of everything elsethat's going on, I was showing
up in my kid's life.
It wasn't to the degree that Iwas like yelling at the kids or
(54:49):
whatever.
The kids kind of just saw zombiedad for a while, but he wasn't
angry.
Dad, he wasn't bitter.
Dad, the.
The side of me that they saw, Idon't think had an impact.
I think I have to be morecareful now because it's been
such a long period of want andfrustration that things didn't
(55:10):
turn out because this stretchesback to 2015 it's 2024 now do
the math.
It's been a long journey thatthe finances have not been
lining up for our family.
And so I think now the kids.
Why can't we live in that house?
You know, the new developmentacross the street goes up and
(55:31):
they're like, that would be niceto have that house over there.
And it's like, we've got a greathouse, dude.
Like, I don't know if yourealize this is a nice house.
They each have their ownbedroom, we're on a third of an
acre.
It's, it's perfectly fine forour family of four, but we go to
a richer school district wherewe're on the lower end of the
(55:53):
income bracket.
That's where now I think thekids see some of that, maybe
some of that bitterness seep outof dad that I try not.
To express some of that to thekids.
I don't want to screw them upjust because I'm going through a
tough time.
I want them to see if you'redoing something that you love,
(56:14):
then great.
I used to have this philosophy,do what you love or make enough
money to do what you love.+ Inever expected to find myself in
a position where I didn't have achoice for either.
Now you're in a job that is notyour favorite and it's not
paying you enough money to dowhat you love either.
(56:36):
Yeah.
So what do you do then?
My, my whole identity had beenshaped around that.
My wife and I have this runningjoke.
Just two more years, just twomore years.
Yes.
Ben (56:47):
You've probably been saying just two more years since 2015.
Jim (56:50):
Since 2015.
We've been saying that becauseit was always like, well, this
job will take a minute to gettraction or you have to build up
your business here or, well,that didn't work out two more
years of this.
And it's always just two moreyears and it's always two more
years after that.
So.
Man, we've talked about this alittle bit behind the scenes.
(57:14):
What's that balance for you isBen amazing.
And that's why he got this greatjob.
Do you feel like there's a luckcomponent to it?
Ben (57:24):
I was actually thinking in the same direction.
I mean, to find the perfect fitemployer, they need to be
looking for an employee at thesame time you're looking for a
job.
And just to get those two tomatch up is dumb luck.
But because that happened andbecause I had some exposure to
this employer from before in myprevious sales experience,
(57:48):
people came out of the woodworkto write letters of
recommendation directly to thehead of HR at my employer.
They volunteered.
So it was like the starsaligned.
There was a need for a newemployee and I checked all the
(58:08):
boxes and came in with a crazyamount of support behind me.
That's rare.
Jim, it's hard for me as yourfriend to be in the position
that I'm in and to See theamount of work and investment
(58:28):
and time and everything you putin.
And yet here I am in a job thatI love.
A company that believes in me,customers who love me, the work
life balance is amazing.
And it sucks because I look overat you and I just want the same
(58:49):
for you.
Jim (58:50):
Yeah, I do too.
And it's tough.
You know, I was talking to mybrother earlier about this whole
process for me and I was havingtrouble getting the words
together.
And he basically said, it'sbecause for you, it's like
you're climbing up this mountainand you're about to peak the
summit and then you fall.
All the way back down to theside and then you climb back up
(59:12):
and you only make it halfway andyou fall down and then you climb
again and now you're only athird way and it's like, am I
getting worse at this?
What's happening?
And you see all these otherpeople that have made it and you
haven't.
So I'm not trying to say I havethe worst situation in the
world.
It would be.
Almost impossible for me to endup on the streets somewhere, but
(59:36):
yeah, to not have that financialsecurity that you can just kind
of relax and lean into a hobbyand hang out with friends and go
on occasional vacations.
So I'm trying not to allow thatto swallow me.
Um, but figuring out how do youmove forward from that point and
continue on in a way that youdon't just sort of give up on
(59:58):
yourself.
Ben (59:59):
Well, as we wrap up, how do you do that?
I mean, you've been walking thispath.
In a lot of ways, since 2015,why do you keep going?
Jim (01:00:12):
I have always made decisions based on what I felt
like was best for my family.
The divorce rate for financialadvisors is insane.
I think it's insane for sales ingeneral, sales in general,
because you have a bunch of typea people who are driven to win.
(01:00:32):
No matter what that when theirwife told them to quit because
it wasn't working, they said,No, I almost have it.
I'm waiting for this account tocome in.
Things are going to get better.
They missed that beat.
That was basically their wifesaying, You need to stop.
This is killing us.
(01:00:52):
And they end up crushing therelationship.
Maybe the job works out, maybeit doesn't, but the marriage
didn't.
Right.
And that happened with me in,higher ed too.
I was right at the cusp.
I was one position away fromfinancial security.
Where I would have been in a sixfigure job benefits and doing
(01:01:13):
something that I loved, but inorder to do it, I would have had
to hop from state to state tochase that next position because
it was a pretty niche role thatI was in.
It was a needed role.
There aren't a ton of them, soyou have to jump from state to
state to get what you want.
I couldn't do that to my family.
(01:01:33):
So in spite of the fact that allof my job skill set, education
and experience was in studentdevelopment, I quit the
profession for my family.
And I had to start over.
I have to remind myself, that'ssomething that I think grounds
me.
You know what?
You are happily married man withtwo beautiful boys.
(01:01:54):
That has been your priority andthat's what's going well in your
life.
Comparison is the thief of joy.
And I have to remind myself thatI need to find the things in my
life that are bringing me joy.
And that theme that we keepbringing up in these episodes,
you need to find your peoplebecause not everything in your
life is always going to go theway that you want or expect it
(01:02:16):
to.
You need to find the thingsthat, that bring you joy and
provide you that identity.
Cause it's not just onecomponent that defines who you
are.
Ben (01:02:25):
That's very true.
At the end of this episode, I'vesat and listened and felt your
journey and the.
Losses, the falling down themountain and having to climb
back up.
I can identify with so much ofthat.
despite the fact that yourvocational life has been
(01:02:48):
challenging, there are otherthings that are going well for
you.
And as we're doing an episodeabout depression and anxiety, as
it relates to your journey, Ican't.
End of this episode withoutpointing out something that to
me is so obvious, just the factthat I am in this chair with a
(01:03:13):
microphone in front of me,headphones on, recording a
podcast with a friend who's beenthere I'll In the exact right
times throughout my life overthe last 20 years, I went
through a season where I was ona different podcast and it ended
badly.
(01:03:33):
And it was like tumbling downthe mountain and I didn't want
to climb back up that mountain.
I was like, that season is done.
I'm not going to do this podcastthing.
But then Jim comes along and wemeet up at this reunion and we
just start to share and catchup.
(01:03:53):
Not only are you a.
Damn good dad and husband.
You are a damn good friend.
You could have, out ofbitterness, or envy, or
jealousy, or whatever else, beenlike, whatever, this Ben guy,
not gonna go there.
(01:04:14):
But no, you've chosen tocontinue to step in, and even
though you have fallen down thevocational mountain, You cared
enough to be like, Oh, I seesomebody who also tumbled down a
mountain.
I'm going to go help them climbback up.
(01:04:36):
Like who does that?
Thank you.
You're doing great.
I'm just holding on to hope thatyou'll find what's next,
vocationally.
Jim (01:04:49):
I, I don't know what to say, Ben.
That's generous of you to say.
And I think it just serves as agood reminder to me that just
because you're going through aseason, In your life doesn't
mean that you can't be there forother people.
(01:05:10):
And to me, that is who I am.
As much as I try to shape myselfinto a mold of what society
tells me I'm supposed to be, Ifeel the most myself when I'm
there for other people andspending time with other people.
(01:05:32):
I guess my encouragement.
People who are listening to thisis if you're in that spot where.
You're not where you expected inyour career.
You desperately wanted to getmarried, and you're not.
You really wanted to have kids,and you haven't been able to get
pregnant.
(01:05:54):
It's okay to not be okay.
You just have to put one foot infront of the other.
Find your people and think aboutreally what it is makes you take
that next step forward what yourwhy is and for me That's my
(01:06:16):
wife.
That's my kids and Ben.
That's you as my friend I don'tremember the last time that I
had someone not related to methat listened to the despair of
(01:06:37):
Of the situation that I was inwithout me feeling like I was
judged or a burden to them.
The first conversation that wehad after that retreat where we
kind of rekindled ourfriendship, I said that to you,
that I felt like I was being aburden because I'm always the
(01:07:01):
one helping other people out.
And a lot of times I find when Iturn around and ask for help, I
don't get it.
So right back at you, Ben.
Thank you for Being there for meand supporting me because it
(01:07:22):
means a lot and being able toshare this with other people and
helping them through it means alot.
Ben (01:07:32):
That's why we do what we do, we do it because it's
forward motion.
The reason that I asked youabout your boy's response to
your depression and anxiety isbecause there was a season where
my son did notice that I wasdepressed and in my depression,
(01:07:52):
I, I couldn't put one foot infront of the other.
I was stuck.
I was stuck for a period ofprobably nine months.
And when I say stuck, I meanstuck, like, Sit in one room and
can't get up and leave, notengaging with my son the way I
needed to for him in thatseason, stuck while my wife is
(01:08:18):
trying to reinvent herself andgo to grad school and do all
these things so that she canfill the gap.
And so my encouragement forlisteners is if you're the type
of person that gets stuck, dowhat I did and take Jim's
advice, just do it ugly.
(01:08:39):
I mean, just do it, even thoughit's not perfect.
Perfection is such a strugglefor me.
And it's the one thing thatkeeps me from doing things
sometimes, because if I can't doit perfect, I'm not going to do
it at all.
That's what my depression andanxiety tells me.
So, my encouragement, step up,get ugly, take steps forward,
(01:09:06):
even if you're tripping overyour own two feet.
Keep getting up, keep dustingyourself off, because you don't
have to stay stuck.
And you'll get there too.
Genuinely, I really thinksomething good is on the horizon
for you.
You've planted the seeds, you'vedone all the things.
(01:09:30):
Sometimes the weather's notgreat for new growth.
Sometimes it takes a while forcrops to sprout.
Sometimes there's just a droughtand you have no control over it.
But, I think your day's coming.
Jim (01:09:50):
I do too.
I do too.
Ben (01:09:54):
Jim, thank you so much for sharing your story with us
today.
I know that that was a verydifficult time, and in a lot of
ways it continues to be a reallydifficult time.
If you, our listeners, arewalking through a challenging
time, I hope you take ouradvice.
(01:10:15):
Find your people.
Who are the people who will bein your corner, that you're not
a burden to, that you can justtell them, this is what I'm up
against, and it sucks.
You need those people in yourlife, so find them.
Perhaps, you are stuck in yourdepression.
(01:10:36):
Very much as I was.
If that's the case, please, talkto a doctor.
If depression is taking overyour life, Perhaps it's time to
get some help.
There is nothing wrong withreaching out and saying, I need
(01:10:57):
help.
Don't keep these things insideof you.
Your life is far too valuable tokeep all of this in and not tell
anybody.
That's an awful way to live, andit will rob you of so much joy.
So don't stay stuck.
(01:11:18):
Get help.
And know that you are not onthis journey alone.
There are people who care aboutyou.
When you fall down that mountainthey'll help you dust yourself
off, get up and keep climbing.
Thank you so much for joining uson this episode of Real Men Hug.
(01:11:41):
Remember, real men hug, and reallisteners rate, review, and
subscribe.
Share the love, share the hugs.
See you next time.
I like that.
Do do do do.
Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
On this show, we jump into thedeep end and talk about some of
the most challenging issues thatwe've faced in our lives.
And by doing that, we want toinvite you into the conversation
and encourage you to havesimilar conversations in your
life.
(00:23):
I'm Ben.
Jim (00:24):
And I'm Jim.
Ben (00:26):
Welcome to the show.
A couple of episodes ago, youhad the opportunity to hear my
story of how my identity wasformed.
That was an episode that bothJim and I were planning on
telling our stories that wererelated to identity.
But what ended up happening aswe recorded was a lot of the
focus shifted to my story and itwas a little bit awkward
(00:48):
because.
I, you know, was on a rolltelling my story and that's kind
of uncommon and it's an area oflife that I'm working on.
Being more open and vulnerablewith the people that I trust and
who have proven to be my people.
What ended up happening though,is poor Jim didn't get to tell
(01:10):
his story of identity in as muchdetail as I did.
So we figured, let's revisitthat.
And we're going to revisit itfrom a slightly different angle.
Instead of focusing on Jim'sidentity, which you'll hear
about, I'm speaking about Jim asif he's not in the room here
Jim (01:29):
with me sitting right across from you.
Ben (01:31):
Hi, Jim.
Jim (01:31):
Hi.
We record in studio facing eachother, in case you're curious.
Ben is kind of smirking at mewith his goatee and beautiful
mustache.
Ben (01:45):
Yes, it's a work of art.
It took a lot of time to grow.
Jim (01:49):
Let me just reel the tapes back a little bit when Ben is
apologizing for talking.
As much as Jim does, I, I lovedthat we got to hear your story
and sure it was in the shownotes that my story was, but
that was part of theconversation that it just made
(02:10):
more sense to talk about yourstory because that's the flow
that the conversation was takingand I don't.
Need to necessarily share minein the moment.
Trigger warning for thisepisode, I'm going to be talking
quite a lot about my anxiety anddepression.
And it gets pretty deep intothat depression, so if that's
something that you're strugglingwith right now, it might not be
(02:33):
the right episode for you.
But because I'm going throughsome depression right now, and I
went through a long period ofsome pretty significant anxiety,
it made sense for this show'sflavor to be a little bit more
about anxiety and depressionthat has my story as a
(02:53):
framework, if that makes sense.
Ben (02:56):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
As we talk about anxiety anddepression, not only is this a
theme or an experience you wentthrough Jim, but I'm over here
too.
Like these are things that havebeen very present in my life.
The earliest memories of anxietythat I have.
(03:16):
Have to do with tests and with,academic performance, losing
sleep in elementary and middleschool over things like tests or
book reports or things likethat.
And also I deal with socialanxiety.
A lot less today than in thepast.
(03:37):
It's something that I've beenworking hard on, but it's
definitely been a thing.
I tend to get pretty sweaty andworked up and anxious when I'm
around people under certaincircumstances.
I've had times where I was outprospecting for my sales jobs.
And just driving around thebuilding that I was supposed to
(03:57):
stop at repeatedly and nevergoing in through the door to
talk to the potential client.
So, as you tell your story, Ijust wanted to throw it out
there that you're not alone inthis.
I've definitely had my share ofAnxious moments, with all of the
losses that I discussed on theidentity episode.
(04:19):
Depression is also a pretty realthing.
So I'm right there with you.
Jim (04:24):
It's interesting that you mentioned your childhood because
for me.
I honestly don't think in spiteof what I did go through with,
you know, a divorce, my, myparents were separated when I
was, I think six or seven years,I think I was seven and they
divorced when I was 10.
Ben (04:41):
Oh, wow.
So there was a three yearperiod.
That's a long time when you're akid.
Jim (04:46):
I don't remember them together.
At all.
I remember each of themindividually, but never in the
same room.
Like I remember my mom readingto me.
Um, and like doing devotionswith me or, you know, talking at
the end of the night orwhatever.
And then I remember my dadplaying bear trap with me where
(05:06):
he would go on the floor and wewould try to race across his
legs and he would try to likegrab us and, and catch us and
bring us into his chest.
And that was something that weplayed with him a lot and we
really had fun doing that.
So that's a pretty formativememory for me as kids.
But again, those are.
I don't remember them reallytogether, but.
(05:30):
In spite of all of that, I'm notsaying that I didn't have any
adjustment issues at all, but myissues were more with
relationships, whether it befriendships or girlfriends or
things at the time, and theydidn't even really hit until
probably my teenage years, Ifeel like I was basically mostly
(05:52):
a happy kid and my idea ofdepression was That's it.
More of that adjustmentdisorder, for those who haven't
sat through a counseling classthat basically is you are sad
because somebody died or you'resad because Your parents had to
move and you had to leave yourschool and now you're sad.
(06:15):
That's not Depression that isyou're going through a tough
thing But you get over it, itcan lead to depression for sure.
But that's what I thought.
It's just, you know, like youget sad, but I was such a happy
kid.
I was totally wrong about the,the depths that depression can
(06:37):
reach and the chemical aspect ofit.
Something that I think a lot ofpeople don't understand for me,
especially with anxiety, itdoesn't always line up with
what's happening.
Right in that moment, you mighthave test anxiety and you freak
out right before the test andyou're panicking during the
(06:58):
test, or it could just be you'resitting in McDonald's eating a
Big Mac and all of a sudden youfeel like you're having a heart
attack that, that happened withme.
I was otherwise feeling fine.
And all of a sudden I had.
My first panic attack, and Ididn't know that was a thing.
(07:20):
And until I had really gonethrough enough life issues, I
didn't honestly know whatdepression is.
And I think a lot of people whohaven't been depressed think
they know what depression is.
And that's why they cansometimes be judgmental of
people who truly are depressed,or they have that attitude of
(07:42):
like, well, why don't you justget over it?
Just see the positive.
Or, you know, thoughts andprayers or something like that.
And you're just like, no, that,no, that, that's not helpful to
me.
Are there times where you havefelt like, why am I anxious
right now?
Or why do I feel so sad todaywhen I felt great yesterday?
Ben (08:06):
Yes.
It's not linear.
One theme that I'm picking up onin life is that life is never
linear.
There's never an easy,straightforward answer to
anything.
And if there is, it's usually acop out or somebody's not
willing to actually go deeper torealize that it's not linear and
(08:27):
it's just an easy answer.
With anxiety, Absolutely, Iremember in our college days, it
was always like 7 or 8 o'clockat night.
Though there was nothing duringthat time frame that was
happening that would cause meanxiety, just the lull and the
slowdown of the day left thisvoid and suddenly that void
(08:53):
would be overtaken with a panicattack, even though there's
nothing happening in that momentfor me to panic about.
It was like my brain and my bodyjust decided, Oh, we're not
doing anything right now.
Let's have a panic attack.
Yeah.
And I would go and walk by thepond on campus.
(09:13):
The only people that were aroundthe pond were couples making out
or, you know, theindividualistic kids.
That stayed away from others.
It was generally pretty quietand I knew where to go to be
alone.
I would just sit there and havea panic attack.
tell me about your panicattacks.
What do they look or feel likein the moment?
(09:36):
Like what's happening inside?
Jim (09:38):
I honestly, the first time I had a panic attack, I thought
I was having a heart attack.
I was having trouble breathing.
My chest felt tight.
I got really hot and I washaving trouble getting a full
breath of air and My heart wasabsolutely racing and I thought
(10:00):
like, Oh my goodness, I don'tknow enough about heart attacks
to know if it's like, wait,would your heart be racing or
how does that work?
Is it part of it's not working?
Ben (10:09):
I think it's probably different for everybody.
Jim (10:12):
I digress.
It felt like what I presumed aheart attack would be and I was
in the middle of a trainingsession for my Newly received a
job at Edward Jones that I hadalready been through a really
significantly stressful timeThat it's just like my brain
caught up with me and I'm in themiddle of class and they're
(10:33):
talking it is not a break I'mnot supposed to get up, but I'm
like I have to leave I have toget up and I didn't even say
anything to Anybody I justthought well, I guess I'm gonna
die in the hallway because Ithink my thought was they had
mentioned that there's somebodyavailable to you, like for
whatever reason, becauseprobably not uncommon for people
(10:54):
to have panic attacks.
and I ended up having to go tothe med center nearby, and this
was out of state in St.
Louis, where their headquartersis, and got checked up and ran
my vitals because a lot of thesymptoms are scary things, but
(11:16):
EKG and do those tests, I wasperfectly fine, and by the time
that I got to the med center, Iwas fine.
And that's usually the way thatmy anxiety attacks work is it's
just this momentary thing.
It can be anywhere from a fewminutes to maybe 15 or 20
(11:37):
minutes that I'm feeling that.
And then they go away.
I was at location in a job thathad been very stressful to me,
but we were just talking aboutthe job and doing like mock
scenarios, which is somethingthat I honestly kind of enjoy.
Ben (11:54):
Yeah, you would be really good at that.
It's like improv.
Jim (11:57):
So.
It was to me kind of fun what wewere doing because there was
nothing behind it, right?
There was no stress behind itbecause this is just a mock
scenario and I was doing reallywell.
Honestly, people werecomplimenting me for how I was
doing, but my body didn't care.
And so.
I had a panic attack.
(12:18):
Have you heard of this HALTacronym before?
Hurry and lighten tenaciously.
Yup.
Nailed it.
No, you got not a single word ofthat.
Correct.
It stands for hungry.
Angry, lonely, and tired.
(12:38):
You mentioned how a lot of timesyour depression and anxiety can
hit you at night.
You could be all of those thingsat night time.
Yeah, it's true.
You're by yourself, you'reobviously tired, or sometimes
tired.
You might be angry aboutsomething that happened during
the day.
And for me, a lot of times I goto bed and I'm like hungry
because it's been a few hourssince I've eaten.
(12:58):
And it's like, man, I couldreally use a snack right now.
So you can be all of thosethings and that can trigger that
depression, that anxiety, andyou have a minute to slow down
where there's nothing else youneed to do, but fall asleep.
And all of a sudden all thosethoughts pop into your head.
So I have that too.
(13:18):
Some of my darkest thoughts andsome of my most self defeating
thoughts happen at night andwhen I'm in the shower.
I get both in the shower, I can,you, the warm water's hitting
you, the hot water's hitting youand you feel great and it's
refreshing and other times it'sall I'm doing is washing myself
(13:42):
and I have time to think abouthow this is not how I thought my
life would be at this point.
Ben (13:48):
Yeah, it's an idle moment.
What are you going to fill thattime with?
Jim (13:52):
It's an idle moment, yep.
Ben (13:55):
Well, let's go back in time a little bit.
What led up to the panic attackat the training event?
Was this like a completely newthing that happened for you?
Walk us through that.
Jim (14:11):
I think I might have had a panic attack or two in my entire
life up until that point, whichwould have been, you know, my
late thirties or at least midthirties at that point.
But nothing that I was evensevere enough that I would have
known to call it a panic attack.
What it comes down to is I thinkI have always been a pretty
(14:32):
mentally tough person for peoplewho know me, they might think,
Oh, no, Jim's really sensitive,but there's a difference between
being sensitive and beingmentally weak.
Ben (14:44):
Yes.
Jim (14:45):
Those things are not mutually exclusive.
And I think that people getconfused by that because they
think, why are you so sensitive?
You've heard that.
Ben (14:54):
Oh, all the time.
Jim (14:55):
I've heard that.
Going through a divorce as ayoung kid, and going back from
house to house, And the turmoilthat was happening through all
of that thing.
And my dad getting remarried andmy mom having to go back to
school.
And there was a lot of bouncingaround and trying to work things
out.
(15:15):
I could have and should havebeen falling apart and been sad
and been lashing out.
And who knows getting into drugsor drinking or the wrong crowd
of people.
I didn't do any of that.
I had.
Really good mental defenses inplace, but what can happen even
when you're good at those sortof things is just like any old
(15:39):
wall.
If somebody is launchingcatapults, they don't just
evenly disperse it.
They look and try to find whatthe weakest point in the wall
is, and they keep nailing thatone particular part of the wall.
And that's what happened to mewith my career.
I just kept getting hit afterhit, after hit, after hit, in
(16:00):
spite of what I genuinely feelwere strong mental defenses.
Eventually, thick as that wallwas, it came down.
And now anybody can just walkinto what I've been trying to
protect and that vulnerabilitythat lies behind those mental
defenses that I have for myself.
Ben (16:23):
As an observer, I've had the chance to watch some of the
hits come against that wall.
And the thing that bothers methe most about your story is
you.
are naturally gifted at all ofthe jobs that you had.
You have the aptitude, you havethe think on your feet skills,
(16:46):
you are incredible with people.
I think that's the thing thatjust gets me.
It'd be one thing if you didn'thave tough skin, you didn't have
the mental toughness, and ofcourse you just kind of fall
apart to have all of the talentsand abilities and experience and
charisma and everything elsethat you have, man, I can
(17:10):
imagine it would really start tohurt when all those walls keep
getting pinged time and timeagain.
Jim (17:18):
I appreciate that, Ben, that compliment, but also you're
absolutely right that it's It'sa sore spot for me, and it
leaves me wondering the samething, specifically with my job
at Edward Jones.
For those of you who aren'tfamiliar, Edward Jones is a
national, um, financial advisorfirm.
(17:38):
I worked there as a financialadvisor for a couple of years
before eventually, for my ownmental health and sanity, I
decided to quit.
When I joined that job, theywere blown away.
By my interview and all of thetimes that I went through for an
assessment of how I would run ameeting or how I would prospect
(18:00):
door to door or all of thosedifferent things.
I was hitting it.
I was nailing it.
And people were like, you aregoing to be successful at this
career.
And so to turn around and tofail so spectacularly, not only
was confusing for me, but.
It also made me angry becausethere are so many talking heads
out there that say, you justhave to keep driving and give a
(18:22):
hundred percent and, you know,knock on the next door.
I worked harder than the twopeople that I am closest to were
successful and I failed and Ithink both of them would even
agree that.
I was working harder than theywere.
I was knocking on doors all day,and then when it got past the
(18:46):
point where I was even allowedto, I was either making calls or
doing emails or taking the breakto do the meeting, and it was
just not working.
So give me a typical day atEdward Jones.
What time in the morning are youstarting, and when do you Like
(19:07):
actually stop working for thatday.
Prospecting hours.
I can't remember exactly, but itwas essentially like a nine to
six or seven just knocking ondoors other than taking a break.
If I remember, I think we weresupposed to get like 40 names on
a list and you're hoping thatyou could at least get 10
(19:30):
numbers or something like that.
I was really good at gettingpeople's phone numbers.
They had kind of some strategiesin place, but I found something
that worked well for me that Icould get people's phone
numbers.
I just really struggled toconvince them to come into the
meeting.
And some of it was the timing ofthat because COVID hit.
(19:53):
Um, right in the middle of that,that was part of that
circumstantial stuff.
I mentioned that I get so madbecause people say, Oh, you just
got to crunch and you got tokeep pushing and you just have
to do the hard work because itworked for them and very few
people who are successful inbusiness like that will lend.
(20:14):
Anything to luck or privilegewhatsoever.
It's just, well, I worked hardand if you worked hard like me,
then you would be successfullike me.
No, false.
I categorically disagree withthat.
Some people worked harder thanyou and are more naturally
talented than you at the thingthat you were successful at and
(20:35):
they failed.
You just don't hear thosestories.
They filter out.
It's, it's that survivorshipbias.
The people who are successful,they think of what they did to
get there.
And it's because of them thatthey were successful.
And it drives me so nuts.
Cause I gave 110 percent of whoI am and it wasn't enough.
(21:00):
You did all of the things.
I mean, you started a networkinggroup.
I remember talking with youabout prospecting methods.
Like you were doing all thethings and it wasn't working.
Ben (21:14):
It was infuriating for me to watch that because it made no
sense to me.
And I didn't know what to do formy friend, Jim, as he's going
through that.
And it was also COVID.
I started a new job around thattime as well, a job that.
I absolutely hated.
(21:35):
I worked for a nationally knownsecurity company, and much like
Jim at Ed Jones I had all of thethings I needed to be
successful.
I had great conversations.
I actually sold a lot of deals.
I did not get paid for the dealsthat I sold because COVID I
(21:57):
would not get paid until thesystem was installed.
So even though I made the sale,the money hadn't been collected,
therefore I don't get paid.
Here's the thing I got out ofthat.
Pretty quickly and landed in areally good spot.
And it was so hard to see youstuck at Ed Jones.
(22:20):
It was a hard time for me.
Jim (22:22):
Yeah.
As frustrating as that was, itwas just the worst, the next and
the worst in a line of failuresin my career.
I, for the first 12 years of mycareer, worked in higher
education, in studentdevelopment, and I slowly was
progressing, but I wasn'taggressive about it.
(22:44):
I enjoyed the position that Iwas in.
For a lot of that, I didn't havekids yet.
And my wife and I were justreally enjoying being on campus.
Being around college students,being involved in campus life,
it was great.
And so, and you're young, theworld is your oyster and you
have plenty of time to redirect.
(23:05):
So it wasn't like everythingthat I ever tried.
Crumpled in my hands in 2015.
It was May 5th, 2015.
I scheduled an appointment withthe vice president of student
development to talk to him abouthow I could be more involved
(23:26):
because I felt like I wasn'tbeing fully utilized for how.
passionate I was about the job.
What I know now, and would havebeen a huge warning sign, is
they were basically trying toslowly take responsibilities
away from me, knowing that myposition was about to be
eliminated.
(23:47):
I was told my position waseliminated at a meeting that I
scheduled with the vicepresident.
And I'm not even gonna saythat's a bad move.
In fact, In a way, I kind ofthink it was a good move because
there wasn't a, Hey, you need tocome and talk to me.
The con of what I honestly dothink is not a bad thing.
(24:10):
What he did is that I wastotally blindsided by it to me.
There were no warnings.
I was not in on any of theconversations about how tight
the budget was.
I wasn't in on thoseconversations.
So to me, just all of a sudden,what I thought was a secure job,
and I had even told them that Iwas planning on leaving in the
next year because while Ienjoyed working there, I wanted
(24:35):
to take a step up.
I had told them that, andunfortunately all of that kind
of got.
Rob for me.
The rug gets pulled out fromunder my feet.
I'm sorry.
Your position is beingeliminated the heaviness of that
You have to understand thiswasn't just a job This was my
entire community and my homewhich was attached to my job and
(25:02):
that sense of security All of asudden, I need to move out and I
have no idea what the future isgoing to hold.
It's just all gone.
Ben (25:13):
In a meeting that you scheduled.
Jim (25:15):
In a meeting that I scheduled.
Ben (25:17):
Wow.
Jim (25:18):
I had a love and hate relationship with my job at the
university.
Some of my best years werethere, but I was also not
treated well, a lot of the timethere, I'm not going to say
everybody was terrible andeverything was bad.
I was done dirty as one of myfriends said to me after I was
(25:41):
let go, I went through a periodwhere I had to.
Re interview for my job andeverybody had to re interview
for the job.
Basically, you don't knowwhether you have your job or
not.
I had this big beef with campusservices because essentially
(26:01):
they were treating me as if Iwas a professor complaining
about his classroom.
But it was my home, when likewater is leaking into the
apartment, that's a big deal.
And they're treating it likeit's a work order that we'll get
to eventually.
I still had anxiety, but thepervasive anxiety that didn't go
(26:25):
away, even when.
There wasn't an anxietyproducing situation.
The genesis of that eventabsolutely was losing my job.
You mentioned your identitybeing wrapped up in being a
traveling speaker and whateverybody expected you to be.
You were good at it.
You were nailing it.
(26:46):
You were young and yet stillthis aspiring great guy that
people had sought out.
That's how I felt in this role.
I felt like I was respected.
I felt like people liked me.
There was this huge identitypiece that was woven into who I
(27:08):
was, that felt like it wasshattered because I thought if
they really valued me.
They would find a way to makethis work.
And especially when I went tothe next school and found myself
on the other side of thatconversation, where we have to
(27:29):
get rid of some money and movesome money around, somebody
suggested, well, what if we getrid of this person?
And I said, no, they are toovaluable to our team.
We need to figure it out.
I went to bat for that person.
The people that you really needon your team, you find a way to
make it work.
And I apparently was not thatperson.
(27:51):
And that hit me so hard.
I thought that I was great inthis job and it was interesting
when.
I was let go because I wasn'tfired on the spot.
I was actually given some timebecause graciously they
recognized this is his home too.
(28:11):
I'm still like in on teammeetings even though I've been
fired effectively.
Ben (28:15):
Were you convinced that that was the end?
Or did you leave with an inklingof hope that maybe this can be
turned around?
Jim (28:23):
No, I knew it was done.
In fact, I had brought, I thinkit was two sheets of paper front
and back with bullet points ofall the different things that I
wanted to discuss in thatmeeting.
And I said, well, I guess wedon't need to go over these.
And I put it down on the table.
And I remember.
The vice president said, wow,because it was this categorized
(28:47):
list of, Hey, these are thingsthat I think I can do to help
the team.
Ben (28:52):
Was the emotion pretty high as you put that list down on the
table?
What was that like?
Jim (28:57):
I think he was pretty gutted about it too.
And I do wonder, we never talkedabout it.
I.
Had brought up doing lunch.
He was in a position ofauthority over me I thought it
might kind of help iron out someof that stuff and he just never
(29:18):
followed up.
I'm not bitter against him.
Don't get me wrong.
I think that he was gutted aswell.
I do wonder in hindsight, if heregrets how it happened and
whether it even should havehappened, but I don't know.
It just so happens that he wasthe one who said the words that
will forever echo in my head,your position has been
(29:41):
eliminated.
Ben (29:43):
That's heavy.
Jim (29:44):
It's burnt into the core of who I am.
You're a failure.
Ben (29:52):
Did those words come to the surface as you are trying to
make Edward Jones work?
Jim (29:57):
No.
Ben (29:58):
Really?
Jim (29:59):
Honestly, when I got the position at Edward Jones, I
remember getting a call on theweekend right after this
intensive vetting process, whichI think is great.
Why not give them a brutalvetting process and weed out
people that can't cut mustard?
(30:20):
So they had basically, it was aday in the life of a financial
advisor.
And you had to organize,prioritize, who are you going to
call?
Who are you not going to call?
Are you going to take thatmeeting?
And then I also had technologyproblems in the middle of it,
which I think ended up workingto my favor because it wasn't my
fault, but I managed to switchmy browser on my computer to
(30:45):
problem solve that there was acomponent of the test that
wasn't working.
And so I had to waste, quoteunquote, 10 minutes of a very
rigorous, you don't want to losea minute process to fix a
technical issue.
And so, they saw that as, wow,like in spite of that obstacle,
he didn't fall apart.
(31:07):
And so I absolutely nailed thattest.
And.
I think it was the same day theguy called me and he said, Hey,
we're getting into the weekend.
I don't want to wait.
And I know you're not going towant to wait.
So I just wanted to let you knowthat you got the job.
And I hung up the phone and Isaid, yes.
(31:33):
That's the first time I've hadto be bleeped.
Isn't it bad?
I was elated that I had thisgreat opportunity for my family.
I just landed a job at a fortune500 company in a job that I am
good at.
And people are telling me thatsounds like something that you
would be really good at.
(31:54):
It was almost like thisimmediate, I'm not a failure.
I nailed that interview.
it was like 7 percent of thepeople that had even gone
through that whole process.
I went through all of the othersteps.
I took all the tests.
I passed every single test.
First try.
Some people, they're three triesin before they finally pass
(32:15):
those tests.
I was hitting everything all theway through that.
I felt like I'm going to have alife where I'm not constantly
worried about how I'm going topay my bills and feeling like a
failure as a husband, as afather, this is it.
This is my moment.
It's finally changing for me.
And then I stepped into it and.
(32:38):
It didn't work.
Ben (32:39):
How long was the span of time from the F yes, I got the
great job.
It's amazing.
I'm going to provide for all ofmy family's needs.
This is awesome.
What was the span of time fromthat moment to.
When you noticed the wheels werestarting to fall off
Jim (32:58):
door to door knocking.
I actually was pretty good atit.
My issue with door to doorprospecting was that I always
felt like I was inconveniencingpeople because I am, I'm
intruding into their day.
They don't want me there for themost part.
Some people were nice.
(33:19):
Rarely, you got people that werelike, I have been wanting to
talk to.
A financial advisor.
And I'm so glad that you showedup today.
That actually did happen ahandful of times, and I ended up
with at least one of those as aclient and it was one of my
favorite clients.
That's awesome.
Ben (33:38):
Right place, right time.
Jim (33:39):
Yeah, exactly.
And even on the other end, it'sprobably like 1 percent like
that and 1 percent that weregenuinely rude to you.
But it was so hard for me that Ifelt like this inconvenience
that that anxiety slowly wasbuilding.
It was like that catapult blastagainst my wall.
(34:00):
I always felt like I was beingan inconvenience to them.
Even when I had those goodconversations where I felt like
I was nailing it, one of mybuddies that I networked with at
the time called it desperationcologne.
Even if you feel like you'renailing the pitch, they can
smell that you need them to sayyes.
(34:25):
I didn't have it right away, butwhen I circumstantially, for
whatever reason, got so many ofthose, no thank yous, it started
kind of giving me.
A little bit of a complex andthen almost right after I
actually am able to startcalling people COVID hits,
Ben (34:46):
of course.
Jim (34:48):
I can't even doorknock anymore.
Right.
And then I come to find out theyhad given me the wrong number.
I had a direct line to my officeand they gave me a dead number
that went nowhere.
So all these people that I wasgiving them my number to, that
just weren't quite ready, theycouldn't reach out to me.
(35:09):
Then COVID hits now I can'tknock on doors and I have not
been trained how to prospect anyother way.
And I just have to kind of tryto figure it out.
And everybody that I call.
Understandably says, let's waitfor this whole thing to blow
over.
You remember how long COVIDlasted?
Ben (35:30):
Yeah.
Jim (35:32):
And there's a scale at Edward Jones where they actually
matched to some degree yourprevious salary.
That was what attracted me toit.
That I didn't have to be whollycommission based.
But the salary they paid youwent progressively down.
Yep, as your commission went up.
Ben (35:49):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's pretty normal innormal circumstances.
Jim (35:54):
If you are meeting the standards and expectations that
we want you to Otherwise, we'lljust pay you less than any other
financial firm And continue topay you less and less of that
stipend.
So now I'm at a point where I'mactually getting paid less
because they are taking more ofmy commission than a different
(36:15):
place would have taken.
And I'm getting paid in less andless.
So every month, even though Iactually was bringing in more
and more money every month, Iwas getting a little bit better
and a little bit better.
I was getting paid less and lessand less money to the point
where.
We couldn't afford to reallylive anymore.
Now we would have pushed throughit if I had been more successful
(36:37):
and my mental health wasn't intatters at that point, but it
was kind of that insult toinjury that even though I was
actually getting better at myjob, they were paying me less.
Ben (36:50):
Yep.
I can relate.
It was the same with ADT.
Again, when I started, they putme on a stipend very similar to
yours that gradually went downbecause the idea is as it goes
down, you're selling more andyour earnings are coming from
your commission.
With a worldwide pandemic saleshave a way of slowing down and
(37:11):
I'm sure it was the same withpeople's money.
Jim (37:15):
Yeah.
People didn't want to move.
They didn't want to do anything.
They just wanted to wait tofigure out what was happening
with this.
That is not when people.
Wanted to shift anything over.
And we were also going through aperiod of time where it was like
10 years of prosperity.
The worst financial advisor onthe planet was still pumping out
(37:39):
great numbers for their clients.
So why would you change for thenew guy who shows up during
COVID?
I basically had one month andsome change to pull in all the
people that I had gotten thosephone numbers for and then COVID
hits.
Ben (37:56):
How was that one month?
Was it successful?
Jim (38:00):
It was pretty successful.
It brought me enough that itallowed me to absorb the not
great month or two that cameafter that.
But then it just got worse andit got worse and then I got
COVID.
And so now I have to take timeoff.
COVID hit me hard.
(38:20):
It slammed me so hard.
And I was in bed for.
A few days where I basicallyonly got up to go to the
bathroom.
So my muscles were really weak.
I'm about to go back into theoffice.
And I go to pull my pajama pantson in the bathroom and because I
(38:41):
had been bedridden and then allof a sudden I bent over and pull
up my pants at the same time.
It sounds funny.
I was just putting on pants, butI threw out my back bad, the
worst I have ever thrown out myback.
I almost.
Immediately fell to the floor.
I managed to catch myself on thecounter and I managed to grab
(39:01):
like the door frames to.
Pull myself to bed because thatcore was gone so much that it
didn't feel like I would've evenbeen able to crawl.
Ben (39:13):
Man.
Jim (39:14):
This happened on like a Saturday or a Sunday and I was
supposed to go back on Mondayafter being out with, after
being out with COVID, not onlywas I sick for a long time, but
at the time they had a policywhere you had to be symptom free
for 14 days.
I think it was 10 to 14 days, soI'm sick for like 10 days and
(39:37):
then I have to stay out of theoffice for like 10 to 14 days
after that.
I enjoyed the break.
I'm going to be honest becauseit was such a stressful job at
that point.
I ended up on two pips, whichare performance improvement
plans.
The third pip, they fire you.
So I think I already had had.
Two pips and both of them wereexceptions that they don't
(40:01):
always grant.
I didn't hit the standard thatyou wanted me to, but I had
money that was about to come in.
That was promised.
The meeting is set.
We're just waiting for the moneyto hit the branch and it hasn't
yet.
So two exception pips and I'm onmy way to a third, I throw out
my back and I call HR and theywere like short term disability
(40:24):
and I was like, I'm not.
Disabled.
And the lady was so nice, butshe basically was like, yeah,
you are no, you're disabled.
Think about how long you've beenout of the office.
This is literally what shortterm disability was written for
this very situation.
I was put on short termdisability.
That ended up being a little bitof a blessing too, cause I got
(40:45):
paid for all that time that Iwas off and then the metrics
kind of paused during that time.
But the problem with the metricspausing is you think you're
doing well.
And then all of a sudden.
Everything slams up next to youand catches up to you where I
thought my best month.
(41:05):
I'm like, I'm doing great.
I'm finally going to be at leastmeeting expectations.
Other than that first month, Iwas always below expectations
enough to not get fired.
And I was like, next month ornext time those metrics uptick,
I'm going to be meetingexpectations.
And then all of the short termdisability stuff caught up and
(41:29):
it dropped back down way lowerthan it had been before.
So I called St.
Louis and I'm like, whathappened?
I was doing better.
And it just kept being stufflike that where I could never
get ahead.
I was getting paid less and lessand less.
What I think was supposed to bean inspirational talk from a
couple of the advisors in thearea that led me to realize I
(41:52):
had to quit this job.
One of them said, Hey, look atme.
I just had my second worst monthever.
And I've been doing this foryears.
Sometimes you just have a bad goat it and you just got to keep
on plugging on.
Well, he had pulled up hismetrics.
His second worst was better thanall but I think my best month.
(42:20):
When you talk about the struggleto bring in finances, you don't
see me in that conversation.
You, Talk about struggling, butyou never actually really
struggled.
You were bringing in enoughmoney that in your worst month
balanced with the three monthsthat were exceeding expectations
(42:40):
before that you never were notmeeting expectations.
And in fact, we're alwaysexceeding expectations.
That's not struggle.
Yeah.
And so I'm in this point thateven though I've been told by so
many people, you're going to dogreat at this job.
I was always below expectations.
I got to the point where just toget out of the car, I had to
(43:03):
take anxiety medication everyday.
If I didn't take it.
I was frozen in the car Iremember calling my wife and
saying, I'm in the churchparking lot next to this
neighborhood that I'm supposedto prospect.
I can't get out of the car.
I would circle the neighborhood,come back and I'm, parked in
(43:25):
this church parking lot becauseit was a public place to park.
I don't know how I'm supposed toget out of the car.
And I, and I didn't want to takethe medication.
And so sometimes I would take itwith me if my wife convinced me
that it's okay to take themedication.
And so I would, I would have toliterally had to take
(43:46):
medication.
And then I talked to my doctorabout it and eventually ended up
on an antidepressant because Iwas so down.
And then I started losing sleep,so they put me on another, it
was a twofer.
It was to help me sleep, butalso it was another
antidepressant.
Okay.
So I was on two antidepressantsand anxiety meds and I still was
(44:08):
absolutely falling apart.
And that's what happened in St.
Louis.
My wife had to convince me to gobecause I said, I can't do this
anymore.
It's too much I can't do it.
I thought I could, I knew it wasgoing to be tough and you just
have to push through, but it'stoo much.
I can't do it.
(44:28):
And she basically was like, atfirst she kind of started
acquiescing and then she waslike, no, you have tried too
hard to do this.
You're going on this trainingthing.
You have to go.
And I went and I'm glad shepushed me and I had a good time,
but yeah, then I had my panicattack in the middle of class.
(44:49):
I ended up going to the hospitaland when I came back, it just
was this continued litany of itwas never enough.
It was never enough.
I think I had already had theconversation with one financial
advisor about his second worstmonth.
And then another financialadvisor called me.
And he was like, dude, you needto be pulling in 500,000 every
(45:11):
month.
And I'm like, I have never oncebrought in$500,000 in a single
month and you're telling me Ihave to do it every month.
I am trying my hardest.
You have to understand that he,when he tried his hardest, was
bringing in half a milliondollars.
So he believes to this day thatif you try your hardest, you
(45:35):
bring in half a million dollars.
I think he.
Would take umbrage with mesitting here saying that for
some people you can try yourhardest and it still doesn't
happen, but I can say it becauseit's what happened with me.
Yeah.
Some people might've looked atmy last few months and said, Oh,
you know, but he gave up.
And it's not untrue because atthat point I had already decided
(45:58):
I'm done with this.
It was just a timing thing.
And so I was doing more accountmanagement and trying to serve
my clients well.
So I wasn't bringing in a bunchof extra.
But other than those last coupleof months, I tried harder than I
have ever tried in a job in myentire life.
I was putting 60 to 70 hours inevery week.
And some people might say, whynot 80?
(46:20):
Why not 90?
I was not physically andmentally capable of putting in a
single extra hour than what Idid.
Ben (46:28):
Now, what was the standard for the other Ed Jones reps?
Were they working 60, 70 hours?
What's the norm to besuccessful?
Jim (46:36):
No, the two guys that I'm comparing myself to, and I love
both of them.
One of them was kind of a localcelebrity and a great guy and
amazing personality and anatural salesman.
So he nailed it out of the parkwithout trying.
Sure.
No offense to that guy becausehe did try and he's a hard
worker, but he was alreadytaking regular vacations with
(46:59):
the family taking weekends off.
I think just to say that he did,he might have knocked on a door
or two, but he was so wellconnected that he was, it was a
given that this guy COVID wasnot going to stop him from
being.
Successful he, and he's killingit.
Absolutely is.
The other guy was in a morerural area with one other
(47:20):
financial advisor who had workedat the biggest company in the
area that got bought out byanother company, which unlocked
all of the 401ks in that companyfor their old buddy, old pal,
who is now the only financialadvisor that takes accounts
under 10 million.
I mean, it was just one of thosethings that same thing he was.
(47:41):
Go in hunting every weekend,camping with his family.
Yeah.
Hardworking guy, but did he workhard as me?
He would say no, absolutely not.
Not even close.
And he was an over night successand I failed.
Ben (47:55):
So you are literally running circles around your
peers in the same job and you'renot getting the success that
they have.
That is heavy.
Yeah, man,
Jim (48:08):
other people washed out to the washout rate for financial
advisors is incredibly high.
But my personality, my skill setand how much work I was putting
into it, I genuinely thought itIt has to happen.
It's just other people don'thave the fortitude to make it
through the hard times.
I did it for two years.
Ben (48:29):
That's a long time.
Jim (48:30):
I did it for two years.
I stuck it out in spite of poorperformance.
Cause all those people that talkabout, you just have to stick it
out, have never been on a PIP intheir life.
It just worked out for them.
Oh yeah, it was hard for me.
No, it wasn't.
It wasn't.
You, you stepped into a job thatyou were successful at and then
(48:51):
you just got even better andyou're basically saying, can you
sense the bitterness there alittle bit?
I struggle with that.
I do because I really wanted tobe successful.
That's why we were talking aboutthat identity topic because for
me it was wrapped up in so muchthat I was just killing myself
over it.
(49:12):
Yeah.
Ben (49:13):
You mentioned the bitterness that you had.
After seeing those individuals,and their success, and hearing
their stories.
What connection do you see thatbitterness having with the
depression and anxiety?
Are they separate from eachother or do you think perhaps
(49:34):
the bitterness fueled some ofthe anxiety and depression?
Jim (49:40):
I don't know how to answer your question.
Did it fuel some of thatanxiety?
I think it was not the reasonwhy I left.
I was having deeply physical.
Uncontrollable symptoms from thedepth of my anxiety that I had
(50:01):
over pushing myself so hard andpressuring myself so hard to
make those sales.
But when you're in the moment,your sales face is on and
everything's great.
I'm just happy and I'm here tohelp you on the best thing since
sliced bread.
You just have to keep going onand pretending like you're not
falling apart.
It was having a physical toll onmy body where I was buzzing at
(50:25):
night when I went to sleep.
My skin was buzzing.
I felt like my legs were liftingup in the air even though they
weren't moving.
I was having daily panicattacks, multiple panic attacks
in a day.
Even with medication, I had atleast two, if not sometimes
three or four panic attacks aday.
I pushed myself to the raggededge.
(50:46):
I could not do it anymore.
It was just this very physicalreaction that I couldn't shake.
And it was actually my wife thatessentially gave me permission
to quit.
We both were invested in this.
We had put so much time andenergy.
It's that sunk cost thing,right?
I've done so much to get as faras I have.
(51:10):
But my wife said, Jim, you arenot yourself anymore.
You can't keep doing this job.
It's not worth it at that point.
And so I was like, you're right.
I, I tried my hardest.
I was the guy that that checkkept getting punted down the
road for other people.
They get it right away.
And that's the shot in the armthat they need to continue.
(51:31):
Yeah.
I don't know a whole lot ofpeople who make it.
As far as I did failing as muchas I did, there wasn't anybody
else in our region.
So I, I was doing the worst forstill being there out of anybody
else in the region becauseeverybody else quit.
I don't think anybody in mycohort anyways, I don't think
(51:54):
anybody failed out.
It was all, it was so much thatthey quit.
Sure.
So I, I was too now obviouslytechnically I quit too, but I
was two pips in and I wasperilously close to that third
pip.
It was pretty much effectivelythat, yeah, I wasn't going to
(52:15):
make it, man.
So it was tough.
And so that became Jim'sidentity.
I am a failure.
I am not good at anything.
Nobody cares about you, youfailed your family, you are
going to be stuck in a job forthe rest of your life.
(52:37):
Yeah, man.
So, that's the part of it whereI can get over things and I am,
I'm working on trying torecognize that your job doesn't
define you, but there is thatcomponent that when you're under
a certain point, there's nothingyou can do about the fact that
(52:58):
you want to do something and youjust can't do it right as great
as your budgeting in this marketright now.
I am so fortunate that we boughta house when we did before the
market exploded.
I wasn't one of those luckysouls that bought it back in
like 2008.
We did buy it before it wentcrazy.
And what was the 2020, 2021during COVID.
(53:22):
Yeah, it just skyrocketed and webought it right before that.
So we were already thinking,wow, man, we bought the house at
the worst time.
We could have gotten such anicer house if we would have,
or, or so much cheaper of ahouse for the same house.
And then.
When we landed it and we saw theprices going up and up and up.
So don't get me wrong.
(53:43):
I know that I'm lucky.
And when I look from a globalscale or even national scale, I
know I'm blessed to be in theposition that I am, that I have
a house, that I have a car, warmfood, electricity, all of that
kind of stuff, but I'm not goingto be going on the annual
vacation to Disney.
And that's the part that it'shard to mentally get over it's
(54:04):
something that I'm working onfor sure, but there is that
level that, yeah, I want to makea certain amount of money that
I'm not, feeling like I'm alwaysdrowning from a financial
standpoint.
Ben (54:17):
How did your kids respond?
What impact did that season atEdward Jones have on your boys?
Jim (54:26):
I think that my boys were young enough that it didn't have
a huge impact on them.
And, as I've mentioned before,That is one of my strengths that
in spite of everything elsethat's going on, I was showing
up in my kid's life.
It wasn't to the degree that Iwas like yelling at the kids or
(54:49):
whatever.
The kids kind of just saw zombiedad for a while, but he wasn't
angry.
Dad, he wasn't bitter.
Dad, the.
The side of me that they saw, Idon't think had an impact.
I think I have to be morecareful now because it's been
such a long period of want andfrustration that things didn't
(55:10):
turn out because this stretchesback to 2015 it's 2024 now do
the math.
It's been a long journey thatthe finances have not been
lining up for our family.
And so I think now the kids.
Why can't we live in that house?
You know, the new developmentacross the street goes up and
(55:31):
they're like, that would be niceto have that house over there.
And it's like, we've got a greathouse, dude.
Like, I don't know if yourealize this is a nice house.
They each have their ownbedroom, we're on a third of an
acre.
It's, it's perfectly fine forour family of four, but we go to
a richer school district wherewe're on the lower end of the
(55:53):
income bracket.
That's where now I think thekids see some of that, maybe
some of that bitterness seep outof dad that I try not.
To express some of that to thekids.
I don't want to screw them upjust because I'm going through a
tough time.
I want them to see if you'redoing something that you love,
(56:14):
then great.
I used to have this philosophy,do what you love or make enough
money to do what you love.+ Inever expected to find myself in
a position where I didn't have achoice for either.
Now you're in a job that is notyour favorite and it's not
paying you enough money to dowhat you love either.
(56:36):
Yeah.
So what do you do then?
My, my whole identity had beenshaped around that.
My wife and I have this runningjoke.
Just two more years, just twomore years.
Yes.
Ben (56:47):
You've probably been saying just two more years since 2015.
Jim (56:50):
Since 2015.
We've been saying that becauseit was always like, well, this
job will take a minute to gettraction or you have to build up
your business here or, well,that didn't work out two more
years of this.
And it's always just two moreyears and it's always two more
years after that.
So.
Man, we've talked about this alittle bit behind the scenes.
(57:14):
What's that balance for you isBen amazing.
And that's why he got this greatjob.
Do you feel like there's a luckcomponent to it?
Ben (57:24):
I was actually thinking in the same direction.
I mean, to find the perfect fitemployer, they need to be
looking for an employee at thesame time you're looking for a
job.
And just to get those two tomatch up is dumb luck.
But because that happened andbecause I had some exposure to
this employer from before in myprevious sales experience,
(57:48):
people came out of the woodworkto write letters of
recommendation directly to thehead of HR at my employer.
They volunteered.
So it was like the starsaligned.
There was a need for a newemployee and I checked all the
(58:08):
boxes and came in with a crazyamount of support behind me.
That's rare.
Jim, it's hard for me as yourfriend to be in the position
that I'm in and to See theamount of work and investment
(58:28):
and time and everything you putin.
And yet here I am in a job thatI love.
A company that believes in me,customers who love me, the work
life balance is amazing.
And it sucks because I look overat you and I just want the same
(58:49):
for you.
Jim (58:50):
Yeah, I do too.
And it's tough.
You know, I was talking to mybrother earlier about this whole
process for me and I was havingtrouble getting the words
together.
And he basically said, it'sbecause for you, it's like
you're climbing up this mountainand you're about to peak the
summit and then you fall.
All the way back down to theside and then you climb back up
(59:12):
and you only make it halfway andyou fall down and then you climb
again and now you're only athird way and it's like, am I
getting worse at this?
What's happening?
And you see all these otherpeople that have made it and you
haven't.
So I'm not trying to say I havethe worst situation in the
world.
It would be.
Almost impossible for me to endup on the streets somewhere, but
(59:36):
yeah, to not have that financialsecurity that you can just kind
of relax and lean into a hobbyand hang out with friends and go
on occasional vacations.
So I'm trying not to allow thatto swallow me.
Um, but figuring out how do youmove forward from that point and
continue on in a way that youdon't just sort of give up on
(59:58):
yourself.
Ben (59:59):
Well, as we wrap up, how do you do that?
I mean, you've been walking thispath.
In a lot of ways, since 2015,why do you keep going?
Jim (01:00:12):
I have always made decisions based on what I felt
like was best for my family.
The divorce rate for financialadvisors is insane.
I think it's insane for sales ingeneral, sales in general,
because you have a bunch of typea people who are driven to win.
(01:00:32):
No matter what that when theirwife told them to quit because
it wasn't working, they said,No, I almost have it.
I'm waiting for this account tocome in.
Things are going to get better.
They missed that beat.
That was basically their wifesaying, You need to stop.
This is killing us.
(01:00:52):
And they end up crushing therelationship.
Maybe the job works out, maybeit doesn't, but the marriage
didn't.
Right.
And that happened with me in,higher ed too.
I was right at the cusp.
I was one position away fromfinancial security.
Where I would have been in a sixfigure job benefits and doing
(01:01:13):
something that I loved, but inorder to do it, I would have had
to hop from state to state tochase that next position because
it was a pretty niche role thatI was in.
It was a needed role.
There aren't a ton of them, soyou have to jump from state to
state to get what you want.
I couldn't do that to my family.
(01:01:33):
So in spite of the fact that allof my job skill set, education
and experience was in studentdevelopment, I quit the
profession for my family.
And I had to start over.
I have to remind myself, that'ssomething that I think grounds
me.
You know what?
You are happily married man withtwo beautiful boys.
(01:01:54):
That has been your priority andthat's what's going well in your
life.
Comparison is the thief of joy.
And I have to remind myself thatI need to find the things in my
life that are bringing me joy.
And that theme that we keepbringing up in these episodes,
you need to find your peoplebecause not everything in your
life is always going to go theway that you want or expect it
(01:02:16):
to.
You need to find the thingsthat, that bring you joy and
provide you that identity.
Cause it's not just onecomponent that defines who you
are.
Ben (01:02:25):
That's very true.
At the end of this episode, I'vesat and listened and felt your
journey and the.
Losses, the falling down themountain and having to climb
back up.
I can identify with so much ofthat.
despite the fact that yourvocational life has been
(01:02:48):
challenging, there are otherthings that are going well for
you.
And as we're doing an episodeabout depression and anxiety, as
it relates to your journey, Ican't.
End of this episode withoutpointing out something that to
me is so obvious, just the factthat I am in this chair with a
(01:03:13):
microphone in front of me,headphones on, recording a
podcast with a friend who's beenthere I'll In the exact right
times throughout my life overthe last 20 years, I went
through a season where I was ona different podcast and it ended
badly.
(01:03:33):
And it was like tumbling downthe mountain and I didn't want
to climb back up that mountain.
I was like, that season is done.
I'm not going to do this podcastthing.
But then Jim comes along and wemeet up at this reunion and we
just start to share and catchup.
(01:03:53):
Not only are you a.
Damn good dad and husband.
You are a damn good friend.
You could have, out ofbitterness, or envy, or
jealousy, or whatever else, beenlike, whatever, this Ben guy,
not gonna go there.
(01:04:14):
But no, you've chosen tocontinue to step in, and even
though you have fallen down thevocational mountain, You cared
enough to be like, Oh, I seesomebody who also tumbled down a
mountain.
I'm going to go help them climbback up.
(01:04:36):
Like who does that?
Thank you.
You're doing great.
I'm just holding on to hope thatyou'll find what's next,
vocationally.
Jim (01:04:49):
I, I don't know what to say, Ben.
That's generous of you to say.
And I think it just serves as agood reminder to me that just
because you're going through aseason, In your life doesn't
mean that you can't be there forother people.
(01:05:10):
And to me, that is who I am.
As much as I try to shape myselfinto a mold of what society
tells me I'm supposed to be, Ifeel the most myself when I'm
there for other people andspending time with other people.
(01:05:32):
I guess my encouragement.
People who are listening to thisis if you're in that spot where.
You're not where you expected inyour career.
You desperately wanted to getmarried, and you're not.
You really wanted to have kids,and you haven't been able to get
pregnant.
(01:05:54):
It's okay to not be okay.
You just have to put one foot infront of the other.
Find your people and think aboutreally what it is makes you take
that next step forward what yourwhy is and for me That's my
(01:06:16):
wife.
That's my kids and Ben.
That's you as my friend I don'tremember the last time that I
had someone not related to methat listened to the despair of
(01:06:37):
Of the situation that I was inwithout me feeling like I was
judged or a burden to them.
The first conversation that wehad after that retreat where we
kind of rekindled ourfriendship, I said that to you,
that I felt like I was being aburden because I'm always the
(01:07:01):
one helping other people out.
And a lot of times I find when Iturn around and ask for help, I
don't get it.
So right back at you, Ben.
Thank you for Being there for meand supporting me because it
(01:07:22):
means a lot and being able toshare this with other people and
helping them through it means alot.
Ben (01:07:32):
That's why we do what we do, we do it because it's
forward motion.
The reason that I asked youabout your boy's response to
your depression and anxiety isbecause there was a season where
my son did notice that I wasdepressed and in my depression,
(01:07:52):
I, I couldn't put one foot infront of the other.
I was stuck.
I was stuck for a period ofprobably nine months.
And when I say stuck, I meanstuck, like, Sit in one room and
can't get up and leave, notengaging with my son the way I
needed to for him in thatseason, stuck while my wife is
(01:08:18):
trying to reinvent herself andgo to grad school and do all
these things so that she canfill the gap.
And so my encouragement forlisteners is if you're the type
of person that gets stuck, dowhat I did and take Jim's
advice, just do it ugly.
(01:08:39):
I mean, just do it, even thoughit's not perfect.
Perfection is such a strugglefor me.
And it's the one thing thatkeeps me from doing things
sometimes, because if I can't doit perfect, I'm not going to do
it at all.
That's what my depression andanxiety tells me.
So, my encouragement, step up,get ugly, take steps forward,
(01:09:06):
even if you're tripping overyour own two feet.
Keep getting up, keep dustingyourself off, because you don't
have to stay stuck.
And you'll get there too.
Genuinely, I really thinksomething good is on the horizon
for you.
You've planted the seeds, you'vedone all the things.
(01:09:30):
Sometimes the weather's notgreat for new growth.
Sometimes it takes a while forcrops to sprout.
Sometimes there's just a droughtand you have no control over it.
But, I think your day's coming.
Jim (01:09:50):
I do too.
I do too.
Ben (01:09:54):
Jim, thank you so much for sharing your story with us
today.
I know that that was a verydifficult time, and in a lot of
ways it continues to be a reallydifficult time.
If you, our listeners, arewalking through a challenging
time, I hope you take ouradvice.
(01:10:15):
Find your people.
Who are the people who will bein your corner, that you're not
a burden to, that you can justtell them, this is what I'm up
against, and it sucks.
You need those people in yourlife, so find them.
Perhaps, you are stuck in yourdepression.
(01:10:36):
Very much as I was.
If that's the case, please, talkto a doctor.
If depression is taking overyour life, Perhaps it's time to
get some help.
There is nothing wrong withreaching out and saying, I need
(01:10:57):
help.
Don't keep these things insideof you.
Your life is far too valuable tokeep all of this in and not tell
anybody.
That's an awful way to live, andit will rob you of so much joy.
So don't stay stuck.
(01:11:18):
Get help.
And know that you are not onthis journey alone.
There are people who care aboutyou.
When you fall down that mountainthey'll help you dust yourself
off, get up and keep climbing.
Thank you so much for joining uson this episode of Real Men Hug.
(01:11:41):
Remember, real men hug, and reallisteners rate, review, and
subscribe.
Share the love, share the hugs.
See you next time.
I like that.
Do do do do.
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