March 14, 2024 • 59 mins
In this episode of Real Men Hug, join Jim and Ben as they kick back and reminisce about their adventures of growing up around, and ultimately returning to, their hometown of Grand Rapids, Michigan. From chowing down on Yesterdog's mouthwatering (depending on who you ask...) delights to cruising along the serene White Pine Trail, they paint a vivid picture of the good times they've shared.
Jim and Ben dive into what makes Grand Rapids special - the tight-knit community. They swap stories about bumping into old pals and the camaraderie that comes with it. Through laughter and banter, they highlight the importance of having a solid crew by your side.
But it's not all smooth sailing. They get real about the challenges of returning to familiar turf after living out of state for several years. It's a rollercoaster of emotions - the joy of rediscovery mixed with the struggle to find your place again. Their honest chat invites listeners to ponder their own journey back home and the quest for belonging.
So grab a brew, kombucha, Vernors, Robinette's cider, or whatever Grand Rapids-esque beverage appeals to you and tune in as Jim and Ben lay it all out on the table, sharing laughs, insights, and fond memories.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jim (00:03):
Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Jim.
And I'm Ben.
Welcome to the show.
We love to take listenerfeedback into consideration.
And one of the things that I'veheard from a few of our
listeners is that while theylove it, when we go deep, it's
(00:24):
also nice to break thoseepisodes apart every once in a
while with some of those morelighthearted episodes.
So that's why we did the nerdepisode.
And that's why today we're doingthe Grand Rapids.
Episode.
So if you agree or disagree,we'd love to hear from you
because we're really, we'redoing this show for you and we
want to be able to balance thosethings.
(00:45):
So we're kind of curious whatyou all think as well.
But today we wanted to talkabout the fair city of Grand
Rapids where Ben and I live andwork and record this podcast.
Ben (00:57):
It's also the city where we went to college and the city
where we first met.
Obviously at college.
So yeah, Grand Rapids is theplace to be
Jim (01:07):
near and dear to my heart.
I grew up here.
I met my wife here.
Yeah.
I went to college, all that kindof stuff.
So we've both moved out of GrandRapids.
But then we came back and cameback because, I mean, why would
you leave forever?
Ben (01:25):
It's yeah, it's a pretty great place.
Jim (01:27):
The best city.
Speaking of our listeners.
I also just wanted to say again,we appreciate you all so much.
We are a week out from the lastepisode.
We're sitting here recordingthis a week later.
And I actually heard back from,the vice president of the school
that I was working at at thetime.
The dude who fired me, you know.
(01:49):
He actually reached out.
We're Facebook friends and wehaven't really kept in touch.
I've bumped into him once ortwice, but he actually moved
far, far away.
But I discovered over the courseof this last episode that he
actually is a listener to realmen hug.
Wild, right?
That is wild.
He, I mean, I shouldn't be toosurprised.
(02:11):
I feel like he's the kind of guythat would appreciate this sort
of thing.
But I, he was like, yeah, I'velistened to every single
episode.
And he said that he appreciateskind of some of the grace that I
extended in that process andthen just shared part of his
story as well.
And I really appreciated him.
Reaching out while we can't, westill can't grab that lunch
(02:32):
because many, many milesseparate us someday soon.
Him and I are going to sit downand have lunch.
And it just got me to thinkingabout the impact that this show
has had for our listeners.
And that's why we do this,right?
We're, we're not making moneydoing the show.
In fact, for hosting and all theediting stuff, it actually costs
(02:54):
us money to run the show.
Both of us, I think, see it justas something we're passionate
about.
And we're so grateful that weare making a difference.
So if that's you, if this showhas made an impact and you
haven't reached out yet, pleasedo.
I mean, that's, that's, yeah,that keeps us going.
What about you, Ben?
Is that, have you heard fromsome fans of the show or some
(03:17):
people that know you that havereached out and talked about.
The impact it's had.
Ben (03:21):
I have a few weeks ago, I was at this leadership dinner
that my church put on.
I was sitting at a table withsome friends from church that I
haven't known for very long, butI've really come to appreciate
them and who they are.
And they brought up the podcastover dinner and.
(03:43):
It was so interesting because Ididn't have to say anything
about it like they came to meand they were like, we've been
listening to your show.
It's really good.
And I was just kind of blownaway because again, we're not
like close friends and so thatthey would even have heard about
(04:05):
it.
It's pretty cool.
And then they had all kinds ofpositive feedback to share about
it.
And of course they know yourbrother.
So that just made it all themore fun.
Jim (04:16):
It's the Dutch mafia here in grand Rapids, speaking of
which we have to dive into thatfor sure, because grand Rapids,
for those of you guys who don'tknow, the joke is always, of
course, everyone's name startswith like van and, or ends
because that's the Dutchlineage.
(04:36):
Coming into town.
It's Dutch bingo.
Everybody knows everybody.
Ben (04:40):
It's true.
I have experienced that withthis show quite a bit Yeah, it's
funny.
Another friend of mine told methat he and his wife were
listening to the boundariesepisode and unpacking it
together And that it was veryhelpful for them in determining
what their boundaries should beand I'm Just like whoa, like
(05:01):
this actually is more than justa show I do with a friend Like
this is something that peopleare listening to pausing Talking
about it and then doing theirbest to implement the things
that we talk about on this showThat's wild.
Jim (05:17):
For sure.
My brother was actually textingme while listening to the nerd
episode and he was getting soexcited that his wife was like,
all right, you either need tolike, calm down or I'm going to
turn this off because I can'teven hear what they're saying.
Some of it was.
Correcting things that maybe Igot slightly off.
Ben (05:40):
My pronunciation of assy.
Yeah.
Jim (05:42):
Your pronunciation apparently was, was not wrong,
but it was still funny in themoment.
So yeah, it was just neat to seepeople get excited about it.
And it really does.
Keep us going.
It is neat to see the growthtoo.
We've had more people listeningto the show, but honestly, what
I love is that we can make animpact.
(06:02):
So thank you so much for, forgetting back to us so that we
know that we are making animpact.
Ben (06:07):
Yeah.
Another, one of my favoritestories, We talked about the
church that had the Pokestop andhow they welcomed people into
their property and everythingelse.
Well, the pastor listened to theshow and she decided to share it
with the entire church board,which again, it's just like,
cool, no way.
(06:28):
So we got a few listeners fromthat too.
Jim (06:31):
Awesome.
I love to hear it.
Well, let's dive in today.
You know, we wanted to talk alittle bit about Grand Rapids
just because it's been such abig part of Ben and I story.
And I know not all of you livehere in Grand Rapids and maybe
some of you moved away.
We're going to talk a little bitabout the impact that it's had
on us and just some of thehighlights of the city.
Ben (06:53):
When I think about Grand Rapids.
What first comes to mind isrelationships.
I can think of very specificexperiences with certain people
at certain places.
And so as we were preparing forthis episode, that's the
direction my mind went.
In college, I had the awesomeopportunity to mentor a high
(07:17):
school student who was in myyouth group at the time, and he
grew up here.
He knew.
Where everything was and he, heand I were both interested in
similar things and wanting totry new things and to experience
things that may be whimsical ordifferent somehow.
(07:40):
And so we always had a blastjust going through it.
to all kinds of different placesaround Grand Rapids, including
Yesterdog, which is anincredible hot dog joint in
Grand Rapids.
Jim (07:52):
I don't know if I would call it incredible.
Ben (07:54):
The experience is one of a kind.
Jim (07:57):
The experience after you've eaten the hot dog, I agree, is
one of a kind.
Ben (08:02):
Yes, there is that.
But no, just the whimsical,like, Throwing coins into the
old record player, whatever.
Jim (08:12):
Yeah.
Or like showing up during theirhours and they're closed things,
things like that.
Yeah.
Or that they're open at like 2AM.
Yes.
Because why not?
Ben (08:22):
Yeah.
Yesterdog was an important placethen with that student that I
mentored.
We went there way too often.
It was also a place where Iwent.
With some college buddies at twoo'clock in the morning, fast
forward, like 10 to 15 yearsinto the future, yesterdog
(08:43):
became another staple when I wasa ride share driver doing Uber
and Lyft because they're openlate.
So if I drop people off atyesterdog, you better believe I
went in and got myself a hot dogand took a quick break before
the next ride.
It was a blast.
My wife would be verydisappointed if I did not
(09:06):
mention, on numerous occasions,she has taken me to Yesterdog
for my birthday or forValentine's Day, even, when we
were dating.
And she's not necessarily thebiggest fan, but she knows I
like it, and so that's prettygreat.
Jim (09:25):
I was always more of a fan of Dam Dogs.
Have you been there before?
Ben (09:29):
Yes.
It's Not in Grand Rapids.
Jim (09:31):
That's not in Grand Rapids.
No.
Let's call it greater GrandRapids.
There you go.
A lot of my fondest memories arein Rockford, which is just north
of Grand Rapids.
But there's a couple hot dogrestaurants.
There's the corner bar andthere's Dam Dogs.
Corner bar is famous becausethey, 12 or 13 hot dogs,
something like that, you can geton the wall.
(09:52):
Yeah.
Ben (09:52):
Are you on the wall?
Jim (09:53):
I am not.
I could have done it.
I suspect as a teenager andyoung twenties, if I did that
now, I don't, that does notsound appealing to me at all.
Plus that would cost like athousand dollars with inflation
nowadays.
Corner bar actually burned down.
Did you know?
Oh my gosh.
So it's like this staple in thecommunity.
(10:15):
And so fortunately I guess theywere able to recreate most of
the wall from.
Pictures and they had sort oflike a digital library, I guess.
So, but yeah, damn dogs.
I just think they have betterhot dogs.
Ben (10:29):
And the thing with damn dogs is you could ride your bike
there from downtown grandRapids, all the way up to
Rockford and
Jim (10:36):
the white pine trail.
Ben (10:37):
Yes.
That is another amazing featureof the grand Rapids area.
I love that.
Jim (10:44):
Honestly, I think a big part of why Grand Rapids is what
it is, is because of some of ourresident billionaires that have
kind of made it what it is.
He's got.
True.
The Meijers, you've got theDeVos's and the Van Andel's say
what you want about them.
But you think back to like therecession that we went through,
(11:04):
Grand Rapids didn't get hitnearly as hard and was largely
because you had these people inthe community that it was really
sort of this oasis in thedesert.
Ben (11:15):
during the recession, I was in Oregon and the area that I
was in was hit extremely hardbecause so many of the people
worked in the timber industry.
And as part of the recession,the demand for paper products or
wood products, it fellsignificantly and that in turn.
(11:38):
trickle down effect.
People in the rural communitieswere the hardest hit.
So I'm just holding that incontrast to what happened in
Grand Rapids.
I mean, you're right.
There are so many affluentbillionaires who are good people
with a desire to help theircommunity.
And man, they really did helpGrand Rapids weather that storm
(12:03):
in ways that You know, rinkydink towns in rural Oregon never
had.
Jim (12:08):
Yeah, a lot of altruism, and not necessarily just with
those families, but it's prettyneat, and that's part of what
makes Grand Rapids, GrandRapids.
It really has a small town feel,but a lot of those big city
amenities, so.
I, I just absolutely love GrandRapids.
And I remember always gettingupset when we made it on those
(12:29):
like top places to live becauseit felt like everybody moved
here from other places and itwas like, you're ruining our
charm, man.
Ben (12:38):
No kidding.
So the bike path that we weretalking about was funded in
large part by the Meijer family.
Yeah.
Which is incredible that trailwill now take you all the way to
Big Rapids.
You could ride your bike toFerris
Jim (12:53):
Oh, yeah, I did marathon training on that trail
Ben (12:56):
marathon.
You did a marathon.
Jim (12:58):
I ran a marathon.
Yep back in 2007 really I wantto say Wow Is that right?
Somewhere around there.
Ben (13:08):
I had no idea.
Jim (13:09):
Yeah.
Wouldn't do it again.
I don't even know if I could.
My calve, I've got a bum calfnow in my old age.
But yeah, I, I ran everySaturday on the white pine trail
and practiced with my, mybrother Dan.
I think it was, yeah, around2007, 2008, we ran the grand
Rapids marathon and I ran it injust under four hours.
So well done beat Will Ferrell.
(13:33):
That was the important part.
Yeah.
Ben (13:35):
Nice.
Jim (13:36):
I mean, That's one of the things grand Rapids marathon,
uh, the, the river bank run the25 K that's something that's
been around a long time.
There are so many events talkabout events in grand Rapids.
I think probably one of thebiggest ones would be art prize.
Yeah.
Have you been to ArtPrizebefore?
Ben (13:55):
I have been wandering around looking at exhibits, but
I haven't gone into any actuallike programmed events or
whatever.
Yeah.
But it's fun to just walk aroundthe city.
You want to hear a funny story?
Jim (14:08):
I do, always.
Ben (14:10):
Last fall, Life was pretty stressful and I was gearing up
for my first surgery.
I have another one coming upthis spring or summer.
So first surgery was to fix somesinus issues.
It was a brutal surgery, a lotworse than I thought it was
going to be.
But at any rate, before thesurgery, I told some of my good
(14:33):
friends.
I was like, guys, life has beenso hard lately.
I haven't had any fun, and nowI'm gonna have this surgery, and
then I'm gonna be laid up for atleast three weeks.
I just need some fun in my life.
So, these two guys were like, wegot you covered.
And so the three of us, we wentout and threw axes at flannel
(14:56):
jacks in Grand Rapids, which wasa ton of fun.
And then we walked from there toOne Bourbon, which is an
incredible bar.
Uh, certainly check that oneout.
We had flights of cocktails,which if you know anything about
me, I'm not a big drinker by anymeans,
Jim (15:17):
a little bit of a lightweight.
Ben (15:19):
Yeah, pretty much.
I think you could put it thatway.
That would be an accuratestatement.
So I had the full flight ofcocktails.
They were delicious.
Just incredible.
But I was a little bit buzzed,maybe slightly drunk, maybe
tipsy.
And then after the drinks, Ithink they noticed that I was a
(15:41):
little bit far gone.
And they're like, well, whydon't we just go walk around and
look at the art prize exhibits?
So we did.
I remember passing peoplewearing Lions shirts and me, the
non sports fan that I am, Iwould say to them, Go Lions!
(16:01):
Every time I walked by them.
Jim (16:04):
I can't even imagine you drunk, Ben.
That is, that would be a sightto see.
Ben (16:09):
Oh, it was.
Uh, I don't know if that wasfully drunk.
It was somewhere between buzzedand drunk.
Oh my gosh.
I've never really actually beenLike drunk drunk.
I don't think
Jim (16:21):
those flights will get you.
I'm telling you.
Ben (16:23):
Yeah, they will.
That's another thing.
Grand Rapids is known for BeerCity
Jim (16:27):
Beer City, USA.
That's right.
Yep.
I know we went to I want to sayit's called Pucks.
It's like a cider bar.
It's connected to the cheeselady.
Okay.
Have you been there before?
Ben (16:39):
I've been to the cheese lady.
I've not been to pucks.
Jim (16:42):
They have a flight there that my wife and I shared and we
couldn't decide what we wanted,what we liked the best.
And so we actually ended upgetting two flights.
Now, mind you.
it was shared between the two ofus.
They make their own cider.
So it's like, Hey, here's, youknow, an eight and a half
(17:04):
percent alcohol, but we got doneand I was like, Ooh, I am
feeling this a little bit.
And my wife was like, wow, that,and then the guy comes over and
he says, yeah, those areprobably closer to like 14%.
Ben (17:19):
Oh, man.
Jim (17:21):
I'm not going to embarrass my wife and share the entire
story, but it was definitely alittle bit more alcohol than we
had originally anticipatedconsuming.
And.
Um, yeah, we, we needed a minuteto walk that off.
I'll just say that.
Ben (17:37):
That's a little bit farther away from downtown.
So going to see art prizeexhibits probably wasn't on the
table.
Jim (17:42):
No, it was more of just walking around the parking lot
and there might be a park acrossthe street.
Ben (17:48):
There is.
There's a dog park.
Yeah.
But yeah.
Jim (17:51):
What are you going to do?
We didn't have the dog with us.
Ben (17:54):
Another thing about Grand Rapids that is incredible.
It's at the center, the heart ofthe city.
It's where Grand Rapids gets itsname.
The Grand River.
There used to be rapids in theGrand River, but they took them
out.
But now there's an effort torestore those rapids, which will
(18:14):
be amazing.
Whitewater rafting throughdowntown.
Yes, please.
Jim (18:20):
That would be bizarre.
Right?
To see people whitewater raftingdown that river.
Now you see people fishing everyonce in a while.
Ben (18:27):
It's very still now.
It used to be like rapidsthrough there.
Jim (18:31):
Were you around when we had that hundred year flood?
Yes.
Oh my goodness.
Some of those pictures that cameout of that.
I didn't realize that some ofthe buildings themselves were
actually part of the flood wall.
Yeah.
And so they were designedactually to flood past the first
floor or whatever.
Did you see the picture that guytook out of his office window
(18:53):
with the fish?
Yeah.
There's like a fish that justfloating past his window.
Amazing.
No big deal.
You know, just.
Busting out your spreadsheet andthe fish is going on by.
I saw some people that made likea meme out of it.
And there was all thesedifferent things that they like
photoshopped instead of the fishgoing past the window.
(19:13):
It was.
Pretty fun to watch.
Yes.
That was crazy though.
I mean, just how flooded thatriver got.
We've got the blue bridge andeverything where the water is
just like practically up to thestreet.
Ben (19:24):
Yeah.
That is one of my favorite partsof the city.
I just love going to the sixthstreet park or any of the parks
up and down that river.
There's trails that go right bythe river.
It's just a great place to goand clear the mind.
The more I talk about it, themore I'm like, I need to go
there like tomorrow.
Jim (19:46):
There's a really neat skate park downtown too.
Oh yeah.
I've gone there a couple oftimes with my kids and they
really enjoy going on theirscooters.
Nice.
So that's a lot of fun.
It's, it's odd though.
We're talking about GrandRapids, but I spent so little
time in downtown Grand Rapids,most of my favorite things about
Grand Rapids are just one, thevibe in general to it's sort of
(20:09):
that greater Grand Rapids areaand the suburbs around it, for
sure, really not as big of adowntown guy.
Do you spend a lot of timedowntown specifically?
Ben (20:18):
Not as much now, but I did back when I did Uber and Lyft, I
was downtown.
All the time.
Every week.
All the time.
Yeah.
And I would drive people fromthose suburbs to downtown.
Um, I got to know, like, latenight pizza places really well.
There's a couple of them.
Fratelli's has the best pizza.
(20:38):
And then there's also Vito's,which, it's gritty, but it has
charm.
And you just have to experienceit.
Have you been to either ofthose?
I haven't.
I'll have to check that out forsure.
They open till 4am.
Wow.
But yeah, there is justsomething about the downtown
area in particular that is.
(21:01):
I like it.
Yeah.
Like I could see myself havinglike a condo in a high rise or
something someday.
But then I also think about thefact that I would have to
sacrifice having a loft,sacrifice having a backyard.
So there's definitely some prosand cons to being in the
suburbs, but, uh, I love themboth.
Jim (21:23):
I thought about that when they put up that the newest high
rise with all the condos, Ithought that would be kind of
neat to live in there.
Do you ever think about likewhat your life would be like if
you didn't have a wife, didn'thave kids, just, it's just Ben,
Ben (21:43):
yeah, I would certainly be downtown in a high rise.
Jim (21:47):
The reason I couched it like that is because I think,
well, for some reason, my brainisn't just like, no
hypothetical.
It's more of like, well, mywhole family tragically died.
And so now, now I'm single andwhat would I do?
And I have thought.
That specifically, like itwould, I think it would,
obviously it would change youright as a person, but I don't
(22:09):
know, I think I might be a lotmore likely to just live
downtown in a loft or somethinglike that, as opposed to in a
house.
But now in this economy, Ithink, no, I wouldn't move
because I'm actually locked inat an affordable rate with my
mortgage.
So boring me would would end upbasically just living in a big
(22:31):
house by myself.
Yeah.
But hypothetically.
I could see how it would be coolto live in one of those lofts.
Have you ever been up therebefore?
Ben (22:40):
I've never been to a residential loft high up, but I
have, clients that have beenthere.
Offices in some of thosebuildings, I have a friend that
worked in one for a time, and hetook me to the rooftop deck.
That's cool.
It's so cool.
Seeing everything, seeing theriver all the way up north to
(23:02):
like, Ann Street, being able tosee that from downtown.
Oh yeah.
It's pretty great.
Speaking of work.
I love that my job has taken meall over the city.
I've got clients that are closeto downtown.
I've got clients that are off inthe suburbs, clients that are in
super rural areas, just outsideof Grand Rapids.
(23:24):
My job lets me go and see allthat the city has to offer.
It's pretty great
Jim (23:30):
in my job.
A lot of times I get to seeinside of different buildings in
the area.
We appraise things.
So how much is this propertyworth or whatever?
So every once in a while, I'llget to go into some really big
industrial building or, youknow, Behind the scenes of a
bakery or wow.
I didn't realize that this placehad apartments above it.
(23:53):
And it is just so neat to seekind of that side of the city.
I don't want to say anyspecifics, but like I've been
places where I think those aresome of the more fun ones, the
tucked away apartments.
There's a lot.
There's a lot of mixed usebuildings in the city.
And by that, I mean, on thebottom floor, there's a retail
(24:15):
and then there's like anapartment on top
Ben (24:18):
or an Airbnb sometimes.
Jim (24:20):
Can you imagine living above a bakery?
Ben (24:24):
Oh, I would spend so much money at the bakery
Jim (24:26):
or a coffee shop.
Oh my word.
And the smells in the morning.
If you live above a bakery or acoffee shop and you're
listening, you have to reach outand share your experience.
No kidding.
Ben (24:40):
Please do.
Jim (24:41):
Oh my gosh.
That would be heavenly.
I'm curious if there's any placethat you got to experience
Because of your job that youwouldn't have even known about
in the Grand Rapids area.
Ben (24:55):
Yes, when they were putting up one of the newest buildings,
I was under the impression thatit was a brand new build, but
no, they were building up on topof an existing structure.
So I got to go in and see theold structure, which was kind of
like top secret and peopledidn't know it was there.
(25:16):
And I got to see just how roughof condition that these suites
were in.
I mean, it had like uglyeighties carpet and wood
paneling on the walls.
And it was just very,,rough andthis was in a brand new
building.
So from the outside, you thinkyou're walking into this brand
(25:37):
new build, but you get insideand you realize.
Oh, this first three floorshaven't been touched since the
eighties.
They're nasty.
So that was kind of a fun behindthe scenes peek.
Jim (25:51):
That is cool.
We've gotten a chance to see alot of rundown buildings and not
to say That grand Rapids haslike a whole blighted area
necessarily.
But especially when you'relooking at old industrial
buildings, sometimes you mighthave something that had fire
damage and, oh yeah, I remembermy dad telling me a story of him
(26:11):
falling through the floor of abuilding that he went into it.
You just gotta be careful whenyou're in some of those old
buildings, but there's some neatarchitecture when you go
downtown.
Yeah.
A lot of unique experiences,like you said, axe throwing, and
obviously a lot of microbreweries where they actually
make the beer on site.
(26:33):
Yeah.
A lot of escape rooms that theyhave.
Um, some of the bounce gyms inthe area that I've taken my kids
to, like, there's so many uniquethings that you can do.
Have you ever done like thecarriage ride or anything like
that through downtown?
Ben (26:48):
No, but.
I've always been curious aboutit, but I want to try the, um,
the pedal bars.
Have you seen these?
Jim (26:57):
I have seen those.
Yeah.
Ben (26:59):
Like you can sit like you're sitting at a bar enjoying
beverages and you're operating avehicle.
So help me understand thatlegally.
But at any rate, these, mobilebars, they're powered by bicycle
pedals and everybody at the barpedals and you move down the
street and then there's abartender who goes with you and
(27:22):
is a guide for the city and theyhave a microphone and they're
giving tours.
It's the craziest, coolestthing.
I haven't tried it yet.
Jim (27:30):
The longer you describe that, the more I don't want to
do it.
Ben (27:36):
You have to pedal the whole time.
So you're pedaling, but you'resitting down and you're
drinking.
So I guess it makes it better.
Jim (27:42):
I just imagine like spilling beer all over myself.
And then I, I remember I wenton.
Like a boat to her one time thathad alcohol and it was free,
right?
It's free quote unquote with thepurchase.
And there was another couplethat just got sloppy drunk and
it just ruined it because theywere so stinking obnoxious.
(28:05):
So I'm picturing like the guywho's 17 shots ahead of you on
this pedal bike tour, liketrying to intentionally knock
this thing over.
It doesn't sound appealing tome, Ben.
Not so much.
I think you like, you, you mightlike that a little more than I
do.
Ben (28:20):
I think I would, it would be kind of fun.
Jim (28:23):
I think if you could book it out with like your friends
and you knew that it was justpeople, you knew that the part
that I does not sound fun to meis being stuck next to some
rando that.
Yes.
Not so much.
You and I can go just the two ofus.
Can you imagine like, we just doour own, like on a pedal bike,
(28:45):
just drinking alcohol downtown.
Ben (28:48):
It would be so much fun to have one of those pedal drinking
bar things with.
Real men hug fans.
Jim (28:55):
Oh my goodness.
Yeah.
Well, we'll have to do that whenwe strike it big.
We're we're already growing.
It's a, it's phenomenal.
Ben (29:02):
It's been a ton of fun.
Jim (29:03):
It's been so much fun recording this podcast with you,
Ben.
Ben (29:06):
I agree, Jim.
Jim (29:07):
Love it.
Are you a fan of coffee shops?
Ben (29:10):
I know you go to Starbucks occasionally.
Jim (29:13):
So, um, I, I, the only reason I ever go to Starbucks is
when I have a gift card at thispoint.
I just, with this expensive itas it is now, I really would
much rather support a localcoffee shop than go to
Starbucks.
They're going to do fine withoutme, you know, and it's not to
say that I don't go there.
(29:33):
You know, the last time you andI sat down for coffee, it was
pretty good.
At a Starbucks.
Yeah.
I like some of the local places.
Haggerty's is one that's rightby I, I've really enjoyed going
there.
I think sort of a staple that'sbeen around since you and I were
in college and before, I don'tknow how much before, but the
(29:54):
bitter
Ben (29:54):
end,
Jim (29:56):
because they're open is all night or just until like, Oh my
goodness.
Ben (30:01):
I spent so many late nights there working on college stuff.
Jim (30:06):
That's one of the neat things about living in a place
like Grand Rapids A lot of bigcities, it's like the whole city
is awake forever.
Yeah.
Grand Rapids is this weirdhybrid where so many things shut
down and you're like, what dowe.
Do you, but there are a fewdiamonds out there that are just
24, seven.
I
Ben (30:26):
mean, you've got yesterdog that stays open late and then
you have Vito's pizza that we'vetalked about already.
I'm sensing a theme.
I like all the places that areopen late,
Jim (30:36):
like Meijer.
I'm not anymore.
They're still open.
Like they're open till midnight.
Meijer pre COVID Meijer used tobe 24 hours.
24 hours a day, 364 days a year.
They were only closed onChristmas.
It kind of makes sense though.
Like if you went there at fourin the morning, it's like just
(30:58):
you and it's really, they'rerestocking the shelves.
So they thought, well, we'llclose all the doors, but two and
we'll just have a couple ofcashiers.
But, uh, Honestly, I, it kind ofmakes sense because they're
still open until midnight or twoor whatever.
Anyways, when was the last timeyou had to go as an adult to
Meijer that late at night?
Ben (31:19):
It was ride share driving because I was going to make
breakfast the next morning
Jim (31:24):
and they were closed and you were upset.
Ben (31:27):
No, this is whack when they were, Oh, I appreciated it.
But that's the last time that Iwent as a late night shopper.
Jim (31:33):
I think that we would go there sometimes as college
students.
Like after you had already donea bunch of stuff and you're
like, well, I'm already out andabout, so I might as well go to
Meijer too.
Ben (31:44):
Did you ever go to Meijer just because you wanted to get
out of the dorm?
Jim (31:51):
I don't think I did.
I know a lot of people did, butto me that always felt a little
obnoxious.
Yeah.
Now, I don't want to say to thepeople that did it, just, I
think even back then I wasthoughtful of how I would be
perceived by the people at thestore.
And I didn't just want to bethat college kid wandering
(32:13):
around Meijer and I just didn'thave a ton of money.
So what am I going to do?
You know, look at the thingsthat I'm not going to buy.
Ben (32:24):
I remember some students had like, let's see who can stay
in the building the longest typeof challenges.
I'd never did them, but what ahilarious idea before you get
kicked out.
How long can you stay?
Jim (32:37):
Yeah, as long as you're not being obnoxious or breaking any
rules or anything like that, Ican see how you'd have fun doing
that.
Oh, yeah.
So many memories of that kind ofstuff.
We talked about some of the bigwigs, DeVos, Van Andel, and
Meijer.
I'm curious, some of the peoplewho are more like local heroes
to you that have made a reallybig impact that have given back
to the city, but not necessarilythat have a name that shouts
(33:01):
quite as loud as.
Yeah.
Ben (33:05):
In my current job, one of my clients is Mel Trotter
Ministries, which is thehomeless shelter downtown.
It's one of several, but it'sdefinitely the largest.
And they also have a lot ofdifferent programs to help
people step out of homelessnessand into having a job.
(33:26):
They've got drug rehab programs,just remarkable stuff.
So when I think about.
The people that I look up to inGrand Rapids, it's definitely
those who have given their livesto serving that population.
Um, and Mel Trotter does suchamazing work in our city.
(33:46):
Yeah.
so I have a friend who left hisjob to go work at Mel Trotter.
He's likely paid less than hewould be.
And I also have met some reallycool people who similarly had
jobs in different professions.
One of them was an amazingsalesperson who I looked up to
(34:11):
in my sales career.
She decided that, She wanted todo something more in line with
her values and she just got kindof tired of selling stuff So she
made the jump into funddevelopment and now she works at
Meltrotter basically Workingwith all of the businesses that
(34:31):
contribute financially to themission She's the one that's
going out and essentiallyselling that to businesses.
So Yeah.
That's what comes to mind for meis just the people who could
have done very differently forthemselves and maybe even made
more than they're making now forsure.
(34:51):
But they chose to do differentbecause they love the people of
Grand Rapids.
Jim (34:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
I've met a couple people from ElTrotter as well.
What a great, what a greatministry that is downtown to the
homeless population.
Have you met or talked withJeshua before that works at Mel
Trotter.
I think he's on the board ofdirectors.
Ben (35:12):
He's on the board.
Yeah.
I'm connected to him on LinkedInand he's got a lot of good posts
that he puts out, but I've neverreally sat down and met him
ever.
Jim (35:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I actually have sat down withhim for coffee during my Edward
Jones days.
Um, he sat and talked with meand I actually came to Mel
Trotter and it was justinteresting to hear them talking
about homelessness and it reallystruck me how they said it's
really not a lack of resourcesor finances.
(35:44):
It's actually relationships,broken relationships that
ultimately are what end inhomelessness and just that.
Fact really hit me hard.
Ben (35:56):
Yeah, yeah, that is a big part of my family's DNA in this
season of life.
We have been attending a churchin the inner city, and we have
many among us who do live atMaltrotter, who are recovering
from drug addiction or who are,stepping their way out of
(36:18):
homelessness.
The thing that makes them themost successful is
relationships.
One of the things that we offeras a church is transportation,
and the church van goes out andpicks up people who otherwise
would not be able to get to thebuilding easily.
And so these people are comingfrom low income apartments,
(36:39):
they're coming from Meltrotter,they're coming from all over the
place.
And it's so incredible to seepeople who are Uh, wanting to
get back on their feet, actuallydoing that work and making the
effort and coming to church.
The relationships are definitelythe thing that are the benchmark
(37:03):
for success.
It seems like, yeah, those whohave those connections are the
ones who do move into A betterlife for themselves.
So that's a really good point.
Jim (37:15):
Yeah.
Grand Rapids has some reallygreat ministries downtown.
Another one that I'm familiarwith is base camp.
An old friend of mine from mycornerstone days, Kelly Ellis,
is one of the people that runsthat program.
And you talk about people wholike chose to do something
(37:35):
because it's something that theybelieve in and something that
they're passionate about.
I am confident that Kelly man,she could easily be a
multimillionaire with herpersonality.
Like she could build it big.
And if that was her goal inlife, then she could do that.
But she cares about people andshe cares about inner city youth
(37:58):
and making an impact.
So I, I.
Always loved it when I got achance to talk to her, both at
my cornerstone days, as well as,I worked at a bank for a while
and every once in a while she'dpop in and I'd get a chance to
talk to her.
And I just loved hearing herperspective on things that I
honestly just had a huge blindspot for.
(38:20):
I would say right now I'm.
Independent with conservative,you know, leanings, I guess, or
at least a background in that,but at the time I would say I
was probably more of like amoderate conservative and it's
so funny that we would talk allthe time and I'd hear all these
perspectives and I was justcurious about what.
(38:44):
She believed in her perspectiveon it.
And so after months and monthsof, of talking about this, all
of a sudden she cued intosomething where she sort of said
like, well, of course, and I'mlike, well, I would think that
for different reasons.
She said, what are you talkingabout?
And I'm like, well, I'm.
I'm conservative.
And she said, what?
(39:04):
She had no idea because I alwaysapproach those conversations
just out of curiosity.
And so I got to hear heropinions on a lot of things
especially when it came to likeimmigration and things like
that.
Oh, sure.
Um, and like the border and allthat kind of thing that I just
was really, Uninformed or likeIsrael and Palestine.
(39:28):
And this was way obviouslybefore the situation now, but
she has so many insights intothat, that I just was curious
what she had to say.
And I learned so much aboutthat.
And so I just always loved herability to see the other and
that she just really cares aboutpeople.
I just love that there arepeople like Kelly.
(39:50):
In those ministries that aremaking a difference right here
in Grand Rapids.
So big shout out to Kelly Ellis.
I love you and your work.
Ben (39:58):
Is she a listener already?
Jim (39:59):
I don't know if she is, but I'm definitely going to have to
tag her in this episode now.
So
Ben (40:03):
Kelly, if you're listening, thank you.
Jim (40:06):
I'm just a big fan of yours, Kelly.
I think it's people like Kelly,like Jeshua and yeah, sure.
Even the big ones like theDeVos's and the Van Andels that
really make Grand Rapids such awonderful place to live.
Ben (40:21):
For as many fond memories that I have of Grand Rapids, and
there are so many of them, GrandRapids is also a place where a
lot of people.
Difficult things happen too.
And so just as I can recall,like the dates to yesterdog with
my wife and the bike trips onthe white pine trail and going
(40:45):
to TGI Fridays with collegebuddies downtown for as many
good memories like that, there'salso difficult memories.
I don't think I can ever go to.
The Panera bread in Standale,because that was where I went
with my former boss and it wasduring that conversation that he
(41:08):
basically asked me what it wouldtake for me to leave my job.
He apparently didn't feel likehe could just tell me to pack my
bags and be done.
So he instead shifted ourconversation to what's it going
to take to get Ben to gosomewhere else.
That was a really hardconversation and it really.
(41:31):
shook me to my core to go fromexcelling in this job, bringing
in one of our largest clients,the library system in the
county.
That was a really difficultthing that happened here in
Grand Rapids.
I will avoid places that havethose more negative memories
(41:54):
attached to them.
Jim (41:55):
Yeah, I think we all have stuff like that, right?
That just doesn't sit well withyou and it's better to just
avoid altogether.
So, it's Panera Bread apparentlyfor you and Stan.
Only that one.
I can go
Ben (42:08):
to any other Panera Bread.
In fact, the Panera Bread just,Like two miles north in on
Alpine is where I was at when Igot the phone call that I Was
hired for my job now.
Okay, and that was a really goodphone call
Jim (42:27):
I didn't have quite the same experience, but Cornerstone
University was a big one for meI had been back there once or
twice after I lost my job whenthere were still people there
that I had worked with to kindof say hello, but then there was
this big gap of time and after Ihad moved, From South Carolina
(42:50):
and then back again to Michiganwhere it's just, I didn't really
want to go onto campus and itreally wasn't until we had that
reunion with the group fromCornerstone.
I think that helped me be atpeace with the university.
(43:11):
I agree.
It just always felt a little bitmore.
Weird having to be on campus oreven sometimes driving by it.
Or if I had to, for whateverreason, go there, but being able
to go there with a group ofpeople and have nostalgia over
these fun memories and have thatshared experience that didn't
(43:33):
have all those negative thingstied to it.
It really was healing for me tobe able to go back and do that.
Ben (43:40):
I had a very similar experience when we were there,
though I didn't ever work atCornerstone.
I certainly had a great deal ofanxiety, panic attack, mental
health struggles that I hid fromeverybody as we talked about on
episode one.
And being back on campus withour group for the reunion, it
(44:05):
was good, but it was also reallyhard because as we're walking to
where the baseball stadium isnow, like I could look and see.
Oh, that's where the old ballfield used to be.
And that's one of the placesthat I would go and just kind of
have a meltdown.
And Oh, there's the pond overthere.
(44:26):
I spent so many hours away frompeople sitting by the pond.
There were like cattail typeplants or reeds that grew around
the pond.
I would go and sit in them sothat nobody would be able to see
me.
And then there was this hugetree by the seminary building
that I could just hide in.
(44:48):
So being on campus was in a lotof ways.
It's hard.
Yeah.
Because I am in a very differentplace now.
The fact that I'm doing thisshow, the fact that I'm open
about my feelings and mystruggles with anxiety, I wasn't
then.
(45:08):
And so to walk around the campuswhere got real, I mean, it was,
it was hard, but like you'resaying, it was also very, very
good.
Jim (45:19):
For sure.
I mean, I got engaged on campus.
Yeah.
I wish I could go back to whereI proposed.
That's something that my advice,if you are yet unmarried,
propose somewhere that you cango back to, because what a
bummer that.
I can't really like revisitbecause it was in the basement
(45:40):
of one of the houses.
There were like flowers and rosepetals and music.
So it was a lot cooler than itsounds on air.
Especially now it's like thisdingy old basement.
I got to see it one timeafterwards, but it is not been
well taken care of.
Actually, speaking of that, thecandlelight thing that they had
(46:00):
on campus, that was really neat.
That tradition where like allthe people around campus would
form like the tunnel of arms.
Everyone would put their handsup in the air and form a tunnel.
where the guy would be waitingat the, like, the bell tower,
right?
(46:21):
Tunnel and then you would kissafter going through that and
everyone would cheer and thenyou'd climb up the tower and
you'd ring the bell and then youget thrown into the pond kind of
deal.
It sounds absurd, but there wasso much energy and it was just
so fun to kind of be able tocelebrate with the community for
(46:42):
that.
That's that's a really funmemory.
Of mine from that campus too.
So, oh yes, fond memories ofGrand Rapids for sure, but hard
things as well.
So I think we're both in thatboat.
For me, obviously leaving GrandRapids and coming back, I'm kind
of curious if it's the same wayeverywhere else, but I just
(47:05):
didn't feel the same communitymoving down South where I really
felt like an outsider.
I, I wonder if it would be thesame for somebody moving to
Grand Rapids because to me it'salways felt like a place where
everybody is welcome versusmoving to the South where I
suddenly realized that Southernhospitality is for other
(47:28):
Southerners and relatives whoare like visiting, right?
It is not for the Yankees, thatis for sure.
So I was not feeling the love.
When I lived in South Carolina,but then weirdly when I moved
back after it was not even twoyears, a year and a half, and it
felt like life had moved onwithout me.
(47:49):
And I almost felt like I had tostart all over again after just
a year and a half.
So it's this really surrealexperience of feeling like an
outsider in my own community.
Did you feel that at all afteryou moved back from Oregon?
Ben (48:05):
First of all, I'm super proud of you for pronouncing
Oregon correctly.
That was really good.
I usually have to correct peopleand I was gearing myself up to
say it's Oregon, not Oregon.
Oregano.
Yeah.
When I moved back from Oregon, Idid not land in Grand Rapids
first.
(48:26):
I actually lived with myparents.
My family, lived with my parentsfor a time, and they're in
Zeeland, which I would notconsider Part of Grand Rapids or
a suburb of Grand Rapids?
No, it's a suburb of Holland,basically,
Jim (48:43):
but it is still very Dutch.
Ben (48:44):
It is.
I mean, Zeeland, Holland, howmuch more Dutch can you get?
And it's a very differentculture from Grand Rapids, at
least from my experience.
Going from Portland, Oregon,which in a lot of ways is very
similar to Grand Rapids, just amuch bigger scale, very similar
(49:08):
sense of community, uh, justwhimsical things that are fun to
go see and enjoy.
out and about in the city.
To go from that to high strungDutch blue collar Zeeland was,
ugh, it was so hard.
So we stayed there for ninemonths and then we spent a short
(49:32):
time even further out in thecountry.
It was just so isolating to bein those places.
But then finally my aunts had arental house in.
The city of Grand Rapids and werented there for a number of
years and loved it Just got toknow our neighbors Kids went to
(49:55):
school close by it wasphenomenal and we got plugged
into a church so moving to GrandRapids for me was very life
giving after a season of Soyeah, coming back, it was like
being a freshman at Cornerstoneand experiencing all of the
(50:17):
goodness of Grand Rapids.
Experiencing it all again forthe first time, even though it
wasn't the first time.
It was great coming back.
Jim (50:27):
That's good to hear.
I had a little bit of adifferent experience for sure,
but It's just hard to say no toGrand Rapids.
I know for us, that's literally,we moved back because this is
just where we belonged.
Ben (50:44):
One of the things that I noticed after moving back after
being away for Nearly a decadeis that when I did see people in
Grand Rapids that I knew fromthe past, whether it was college
or something else, it's likethey had this idea of who I was
(51:04):
back then, and I very much wasnot that person anymore coming
back to Grand Rapids.
And I had a number of people whoI just didn't connect well with
anymore because of the growthand development and dealing with
(51:24):
my own stuff.
I did a lot of work on myselfduring that span of time away
from here.
So in some ways, coming back wasa jolt to my system because
people were expecting Ben to bethis way, but Ben's actually not
that way.
Yeah.
How do you reconcile those?
So I definitely felt that movingback.
(51:46):
Did you experience anything likethat after moving back from
South Carolina?
Jim (51:52):
I think I felt it in myself, you know, where I, for
some reason, I think I was justexpecting everything to be the
same when I came back and evenpeople you hung out with all the
time.
Well, of course you're justgoing to go right back to
hanging out.
And the thing is like they findother people to hang out with
(52:12):
and do things with.
And I still haven't talked aboutkind of my darkest day, which
was, you know, When I was inSouth Carolina, you know, while
I mentioned Edward Jones andthat whole process being like
one of the biggest parts of likesomething that I struggled with
today, as far as hardest in themoment, believe it or not,
(52:35):
actually the time that I wasdown in South Carolina, that was
an even bigger deal.
And so to come back from that,that is actually why we came
back was because.
My wife's mental health was justan absolute tatters.
Our marriage was being heldtogether with duct tape and
(52:55):
bubble gum.
And we just needed to get backto the support system that we
had in Grand Rapids and thefamiliarity of it all.
And even I remember my, myoldest son would cry like every
night because he missed GrandRapids and he missed, you know.
(53:17):
And he missed like all thesedifferent things.
He wanted to come back.
It just never really felt likehome for him.
And so it was hard seeing mywife falling apart and my son
falling apart.
My youngest was just blissfullyunaware, just kind of like love
and life and You know, he, heactually had a Southern accent
because it was like thosefundamental years where you're
(53:41):
learning how to talk.
So it was so funny to hear himsay things in a Southern accent.
And I was like, wait, what'shappening here?
Just bizarre.
But yeah, I was definitely adifferent person.
And I was, uh, I was in a prettydark place looking for
community.
So that for sure impacted my, mysense of belonging.
(54:04):
I guess as we wrap up thisepisode, that's it.
My call to you is not onlyfinding your people, but finding
that place that you belong.
I think having that supportsystem, I know for me, a lot of
times when you have Young kidsat home being able to have like
grandma and grandpa around oreven like friends that you can
do a swap with where you watchtheir kids sometimes and they
(54:27):
watch theirs community is such ahuge part of who we are and I
think finding the right placesometimes you have to make that
Big decision to move or uprootor whatever.
Um, but I recognize that's notthe reality for everybody.
Sometimes you just are where youare and you have to deal with
it.
So then I hope you can find yourpeople and move forward from
(54:50):
there.
Ben (54:54):
yeah, for whatever reason, as you were talking about
community and finding yourpeople, my mind.
Went to food truck Fridays thathappens at Riverside park.
And I think the reason why isbecause you were talking about
finding your people.
Well, you can find your peoplethere.
(55:15):
There's so much variety in thedifferent like food trucks that
come, you've got all differenttypes of ethnic food
represented, and it's this wholemelting pot of community and you
go there and you see people fromwork.
Or a church or even cornerstonesometimes and it's just
(55:36):
incredible good food Seeingpeople and I think that's what I
love so much about Grand Rapidsis that sense of community, and
it just means so much to havethat.
So, but yeah, I mean, noteverybody's going to be able to
uproot and move to Grand Rapids.
Jim (55:56):
Just come to Grand Rapids and your life will be better.
Ben (55:59):
Yeah, go to the food truck Fridays.
Ben's favorite event in thesummer.
Jim (56:03):
For sure.
Oh, the food here.
There's so many good places toeat.
Ben (56:08):
Yes.
Well, we could spend anotherhour talking about the favorite
places to eat.
But nonetheless, Grand Rapids isincredible.
The people are great.
The sense of community and thebelonging that we've both found
has been so helpful.
So if you are looking for aplace to build a life, Grand
(56:32):
Rapids isn't so bad.
Jim (56:35):
So glad we got a chance to hang out with you today and talk
about our favorite city.
Grand Rapids, a great place tolive, work, and eat some
delicious food.
Next time we're going to betalking about toxic positivity,
Ben (56:48):
toxic positivity.
Jim (56:53):
I had a brain fart, so I'm like, let me point at Ben who's
really good at thinking on hisfeet.
Ben (56:59):
Yeah.
So good.
Have you ever had a situationwhere.
It's just rough, but you feellike you somehow have to put a
positive spin on it, even thoughyou really don't want to.
And even though you really can'tthink of anything positive about
the situation you're goingthrough.
Well, that's the kind of thingthat we're going to explore on
(57:20):
our next episode.
As Jim mentioned, we're divinginto toxic positivity.
The tendency to put a silverlining or a bow on everything
that happens, no matter howharmful or painful it is, always
trying to find the positive andfocusing only on the positive.
(57:42):
Frankly, it's a bunch of BS.
So join us next week and we'llwade into the bullshit together.
Jim (57:49):
If you've ever felt guilty for having an emotion, you may
be entitled to compensation.
That's basically what ourepisode is going to be about.
Cause sometimes life is just badand bad things happen.
We're, we're already talkingabout the next episode.
So we'll catch you next time onReal Men Hug.
(58:10):
Be sure to like subscribe andshare.
Thanks for listening to real menhug side effects may include
increased empathy, enhancedcommunication skills, and an
irresistible urge to hug yourneighbor, consult your doctor
before listening to the nextepisode.
Ben (58:28):
From the banks of the Grand River to the white pine trail
that goes alongside of it.
Thank you for listening to realmen hug because flexing isn't
just for muscles.
It's for emotions, too.
Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Jim.
And I'm Ben.
Welcome to the show.
We love to take listenerfeedback into consideration.
And one of the things that I'veheard from a few of our
listeners is that while theylove it, when we go deep, it's
(00:24):
also nice to break thoseepisodes apart every once in a
while with some of those morelighthearted episodes.
So that's why we did the nerdepisode.
And that's why today we're doingthe Grand Rapids.
Episode.
So if you agree or disagree,we'd love to hear from you
because we're really, we'redoing this show for you and we
want to be able to balance thosethings.
(00:45):
So we're kind of curious whatyou all think as well.
But today we wanted to talkabout the fair city of Grand
Rapids where Ben and I live andwork and record this podcast.
Ben (00:57):
It's also the city where we went to college and the city
where we first met.
Obviously at college.
So yeah, Grand Rapids is theplace to be
Jim (01:07):
near and dear to my heart.
I grew up here.
I met my wife here.
Yeah.
I went to college, all that kindof stuff.
So we've both moved out of GrandRapids.
But then we came back and cameback because, I mean, why would
you leave forever?
Ben (01:25):
It's yeah, it's a pretty great place.
Jim (01:27):
The best city.
Speaking of our listeners.
I also just wanted to say again,we appreciate you all so much.
We are a week out from the lastepisode.
We're sitting here recordingthis a week later.
And I actually heard back from,the vice president of the school
that I was working at at thetime.
The dude who fired me, you know.
(01:49):
He actually reached out.
We're Facebook friends and wehaven't really kept in touch.
I've bumped into him once ortwice, but he actually moved
far, far away.
But I discovered over the courseof this last episode that he
actually is a listener to realmen hug.
Wild, right?
That is wild.
He, I mean, I shouldn't be toosurprised.
(02:11):
I feel like he's the kind of guythat would appreciate this sort
of thing.
But I, he was like, yeah, I'velistened to every single
episode.
And he said that he appreciateskind of some of the grace that I
extended in that process andthen just shared part of his
story as well.
And I really appreciated him.
Reaching out while we can't, westill can't grab that lunch
(02:32):
because many, many milesseparate us someday soon.
Him and I are going to sit downand have lunch.
And it just got me to thinkingabout the impact that this show
has had for our listeners.
And that's why we do this,right?
We're, we're not making moneydoing the show.
In fact, for hosting and all theediting stuff, it actually costs
(02:54):
us money to run the show.
Both of us, I think, see it justas something we're passionate
about.
And we're so grateful that weare making a difference.
So if that's you, if this showhas made an impact and you
haven't reached out yet, pleasedo.
I mean, that's, that's, yeah,that keeps us going.
What about you, Ben?
Is that, have you heard fromsome fans of the show or some
(03:17):
people that know you that havereached out and talked about.
The impact it's had.
Ben (03:21):
I have a few weeks ago, I was at this leadership dinner
that my church put on.
I was sitting at a table withsome friends from church that I
haven't known for very long, butI've really come to appreciate
them and who they are.
And they brought up the podcastover dinner and.
(03:43):
It was so interesting because Ididn't have to say anything
about it like they came to meand they were like, we've been
listening to your show.
It's really good.
And I was just kind of blownaway because again, we're not
like close friends and so thatthey would even have heard about
(04:05):
it.
It's pretty cool.
And then they had all kinds ofpositive feedback to share about
it.
And of course they know yourbrother.
So that just made it all themore fun.
Jim (04:16):
It's the Dutch mafia here in grand Rapids, speaking of
which we have to dive into thatfor sure, because grand Rapids,
for those of you guys who don'tknow, the joke is always, of
course, everyone's name startswith like van and, or ends
because that's the Dutchlineage.
(04:36):
Coming into town.
It's Dutch bingo.
Everybody knows everybody.
Ben (04:40):
It's true.
I have experienced that withthis show quite a bit Yeah, it's
funny.
Another friend of mine told methat he and his wife were
listening to the boundariesepisode and unpacking it
together And that it was veryhelpful for them in determining
what their boundaries should beand I'm Just like whoa, like
(05:01):
this actually is more than justa show I do with a friend Like
this is something that peopleare listening to pausing Talking
about it and then doing theirbest to implement the things
that we talk about on this showThat's wild.
Jim (05:17):
For sure.
My brother was actually textingme while listening to the nerd
episode and he was getting soexcited that his wife was like,
all right, you either need tolike, calm down or I'm going to
turn this off because I can'teven hear what they're saying.
Some of it was.
Correcting things that maybe Igot slightly off.
Ben (05:40):
My pronunciation of assy.
Yeah.
Jim (05:42):
Your pronunciation apparently was, was not wrong,
but it was still funny in themoment.
So yeah, it was just neat to seepeople get excited about it.
And it really does.
Keep us going.
It is neat to see the growthtoo.
We've had more people listeningto the show, but honestly, what
I love is that we can make animpact.
(06:02):
So thank you so much for, forgetting back to us so that we
know that we are making animpact.
Ben (06:07):
Yeah.
Another, one of my favoritestories, We talked about the
church that had the Pokestop andhow they welcomed people into
their property and everythingelse.
Well, the pastor listened to theshow and she decided to share it
with the entire church board,which again, it's just like,
cool, no way.
(06:28):
So we got a few listeners fromthat too.
Jim (06:31):
Awesome.
I love to hear it.
Well, let's dive in today.
You know, we wanted to talk alittle bit about Grand Rapids
just because it's been such abig part of Ben and I story.
And I know not all of you livehere in Grand Rapids and maybe
some of you moved away.
We're going to talk a little bitabout the impact that it's had
on us and just some of thehighlights of the city.
Ben (06:53):
When I think about Grand Rapids.
What first comes to mind isrelationships.
I can think of very specificexperiences with certain people
at certain places.
And so as we were preparing forthis episode, that's the
direction my mind went.
In college, I had the awesomeopportunity to mentor a high
(07:17):
school student who was in myyouth group at the time, and he
grew up here.
He knew.
Where everything was and he, heand I were both interested in
similar things and wanting totry new things and to experience
things that may be whimsical ordifferent somehow.
(07:40):
And so we always had a blastjust going through it.
to all kinds of different placesaround Grand Rapids, including
Yesterdog, which is anincredible hot dog joint in
Grand Rapids.
Jim (07:52):
I don't know if I would call it incredible.
Ben (07:54):
The experience is one of a kind.
Jim (07:57):
The experience after you've eaten the hot dog, I agree, is
one of a kind.
Ben (08:02):
Yes, there is that.
But no, just the whimsical,like, Throwing coins into the
old record player, whatever.
Jim (08:12):
Yeah.
Or like showing up during theirhours and they're closed things,
things like that.
Yeah.
Or that they're open at like 2AM.
Yes.
Because why not?
Ben (08:22):
Yeah.
Yesterdog was an important placethen with that student that I
mentored.
We went there way too often.
It was also a place where Iwent.
With some college buddies at twoo'clock in the morning, fast
forward, like 10 to 15 yearsinto the future, yesterdog
(08:43):
became another staple when I wasa ride share driver doing Uber
and Lyft because they're openlate.
So if I drop people off atyesterdog, you better believe I
went in and got myself a hot dogand took a quick break before
the next ride.
It was a blast.
My wife would be verydisappointed if I did not
(09:06):
mention, on numerous occasions,she has taken me to Yesterdog
for my birthday or forValentine's Day, even, when we
were dating.
And she's not necessarily thebiggest fan, but she knows I
like it, and so that's prettygreat.
Jim (09:25):
I was always more of a fan of Dam Dogs.
Have you been there before?
Ben (09:29):
Yes.
It's Not in Grand Rapids.
Jim (09:31):
That's not in Grand Rapids.
No.
Let's call it greater GrandRapids.
There you go.
A lot of my fondest memories arein Rockford, which is just north
of Grand Rapids.
But there's a couple hot dogrestaurants.
There's the corner bar andthere's Dam Dogs.
Corner bar is famous becausethey, 12 or 13 hot dogs,
something like that, you can geton the wall.
(09:52):
Yeah.
Ben (09:52):
Are you on the wall?
Jim (09:53):
I am not.
I could have done it.
I suspect as a teenager andyoung twenties, if I did that
now, I don't, that does notsound appealing to me at all.
Plus that would cost like athousand dollars with inflation
nowadays.
Corner bar actually burned down.
Did you know?
Oh my gosh.
So it's like this staple in thecommunity.
(10:15):
And so fortunately I guess theywere able to recreate most of
the wall from.
Pictures and they had sort oflike a digital library, I guess.
So, but yeah, damn dogs.
I just think they have betterhot dogs.
Ben (10:29):
And the thing with damn dogs is you could ride your bike
there from downtown grandRapids, all the way up to
Rockford and
Jim (10:36):
the white pine trail.
Ben (10:37):
Yes.
That is another amazing featureof the grand Rapids area.
I love that.
Jim (10:44):
Honestly, I think a big part of why Grand Rapids is what
it is, is because of some of ourresident billionaires that have
kind of made it what it is.
He's got.
True.
The Meijers, you've got theDeVos's and the Van Andel's say
what you want about them.
But you think back to like therecession that we went through,
(11:04):
Grand Rapids didn't get hitnearly as hard and was largely
because you had these people inthe community that it was really
sort of this oasis in thedesert.
Ben (11:15):
during the recession, I was in Oregon and the area that I
was in was hit extremely hardbecause so many of the people
worked in the timber industry.
And as part of the recession,the demand for paper products or
wood products, it fellsignificantly and that in turn.
(11:38):
trickle down effect.
People in the rural communitieswere the hardest hit.
So I'm just holding that incontrast to what happened in
Grand Rapids.
I mean, you're right.
There are so many affluentbillionaires who are good people
with a desire to help theircommunity.
And man, they really did helpGrand Rapids weather that storm
(12:03):
in ways that You know, rinkydink towns in rural Oregon never
had.
Jim (12:08):
Yeah, a lot of altruism, and not necessarily just with
those families, but it's prettyneat, and that's part of what
makes Grand Rapids, GrandRapids.
It really has a small town feel,but a lot of those big city
amenities, so.
I, I just absolutely love GrandRapids.
And I remember always gettingupset when we made it on those
(12:29):
like top places to live becauseit felt like everybody moved
here from other places and itwas like, you're ruining our
charm, man.
Ben (12:38):
No kidding.
So the bike path that we weretalking about was funded in
large part by the Meijer family.
Yeah.
Which is incredible that trailwill now take you all the way to
Big Rapids.
You could ride your bike toFerris
Jim (12:53):
Oh, yeah, I did marathon training on that trail
Ben (12:56):
marathon.
You did a marathon.
Jim (12:58):
I ran a marathon.
Yep back in 2007 really I wantto say Wow Is that right?
Somewhere around there.
Ben (13:08):
I had no idea.
Jim (13:09):
Yeah.
Wouldn't do it again.
I don't even know if I could.
My calve, I've got a bum calfnow in my old age.
But yeah, I, I ran everySaturday on the white pine trail
and practiced with my, mybrother Dan.
I think it was, yeah, around2007, 2008, we ran the grand
Rapids marathon and I ran it injust under four hours.
So well done beat Will Ferrell.
(13:33):
That was the important part.
Yeah.
Ben (13:35):
Nice.
Jim (13:36):
I mean, That's one of the things grand Rapids marathon,
uh, the, the river bank run the25 K that's something that's
been around a long time.
There are so many events talkabout events in grand Rapids.
I think probably one of thebiggest ones would be art prize.
Yeah.
Have you been to ArtPrizebefore?
Ben (13:55):
I have been wandering around looking at exhibits, but
I haven't gone into any actuallike programmed events or
whatever.
Yeah.
But it's fun to just walk aroundthe city.
You want to hear a funny story?
Jim (14:08):
I do, always.
Ben (14:10):
Last fall, Life was pretty stressful and I was gearing up
for my first surgery.
I have another one coming upthis spring or summer.
So first surgery was to fix somesinus issues.
It was a brutal surgery, a lotworse than I thought it was
going to be.
But at any rate, before thesurgery, I told some of my good
(14:33):
friends.
I was like, guys, life has beenso hard lately.
I haven't had any fun, and nowI'm gonna have this surgery, and
then I'm gonna be laid up for atleast three weeks.
I just need some fun in my life.
So, these two guys were like, wegot you covered.
And so the three of us, we wentout and threw axes at flannel
(14:56):
jacks in Grand Rapids, which wasa ton of fun.
And then we walked from there toOne Bourbon, which is an
incredible bar.
Uh, certainly check that oneout.
We had flights of cocktails,which if you know anything about
me, I'm not a big drinker by anymeans,
Jim (15:17):
a little bit of a lightweight.
Ben (15:19):
Yeah, pretty much.
I think you could put it thatway.
That would be an accuratestatement.
So I had the full flight ofcocktails.
They were delicious.
Just incredible.
But I was a little bit buzzed,maybe slightly drunk, maybe
tipsy.
And then after the drinks, Ithink they noticed that I was a
(15:41):
little bit far gone.
And they're like, well, whydon't we just go walk around and
look at the art prize exhibits?
So we did.
I remember passing peoplewearing Lions shirts and me, the
non sports fan that I am, Iwould say to them, Go Lions!
(16:01):
Every time I walked by them.
Jim (16:04):
I can't even imagine you drunk, Ben.
That is, that would be a sightto see.
Ben (16:09):
Oh, it was.
Uh, I don't know if that wasfully drunk.
It was somewhere between buzzedand drunk.
Oh my gosh.
I've never really actually beenLike drunk drunk.
I don't think
Jim (16:21):
those flights will get you.
I'm telling you.
Ben (16:23):
Yeah, they will.
That's another thing.
Grand Rapids is known for BeerCity
Jim (16:27):
Beer City, USA.
That's right.
Yep.
I know we went to I want to sayit's called Pucks.
It's like a cider bar.
It's connected to the cheeselady.
Okay.
Have you been there before?
Ben (16:39):
I've been to the cheese lady.
I've not been to pucks.
Jim (16:42):
They have a flight there that my wife and I shared and we
couldn't decide what we wanted,what we liked the best.
And so we actually ended upgetting two flights.
Now, mind you.
it was shared between the two ofus.
They make their own cider.
So it's like, Hey, here's, youknow, an eight and a half
(17:04):
percent alcohol, but we got doneand I was like, Ooh, I am
feeling this a little bit.
And my wife was like, wow, that,and then the guy comes over and
he says, yeah, those areprobably closer to like 14%.
Ben (17:19):
Oh, man.
Jim (17:21):
I'm not going to embarrass my wife and share the entire
story, but it was definitely alittle bit more alcohol than we
had originally anticipatedconsuming.
And.
Um, yeah, we, we needed a minuteto walk that off.
I'll just say that.
Ben (17:37):
That's a little bit farther away from downtown.
So going to see art prizeexhibits probably wasn't on the
table.
Jim (17:42):
No, it was more of just walking around the parking lot
and there might be a park acrossthe street.
Ben (17:48):
There is.
There's a dog park.
Yeah.
But yeah.
Jim (17:51):
What are you going to do?
We didn't have the dog with us.
Ben (17:54):
Another thing about Grand Rapids that is incredible.
It's at the center, the heart ofthe city.
It's where Grand Rapids gets itsname.
The Grand River.
There used to be rapids in theGrand River, but they took them
out.
But now there's an effort torestore those rapids, which will
(18:14):
be amazing.
Whitewater rafting throughdowntown.
Yes, please.
Jim (18:20):
That would be bizarre.
Right?
To see people whitewater raftingdown that river.
Now you see people fishing everyonce in a while.
Ben (18:27):
It's very still now.
It used to be like rapidsthrough there.
Jim (18:31):
Were you around when we had that hundred year flood?
Yes.
Oh my goodness.
Some of those pictures that cameout of that.
I didn't realize that some ofthe buildings themselves were
actually part of the flood wall.
Yeah.
And so they were designedactually to flood past the first
floor or whatever.
Did you see the picture that guytook out of his office window
(18:53):
with the fish?
Yeah.
There's like a fish that justfloating past his window.
Amazing.
No big deal.
You know, just.
Busting out your spreadsheet andthe fish is going on by.
I saw some people that made likea meme out of it.
And there was all thesedifferent things that they like
photoshopped instead of the fishgoing past the window.
(19:13):
It was.
Pretty fun to watch.
Yes.
That was crazy though.
I mean, just how flooded thatriver got.
We've got the blue bridge andeverything where the water is
just like practically up to thestreet.
Ben (19:24):
Yeah.
That is one of my favorite partsof the city.
I just love going to the sixthstreet park or any of the parks
up and down that river.
There's trails that go right bythe river.
It's just a great place to goand clear the mind.
The more I talk about it, themore I'm like, I need to go
there like tomorrow.
Jim (19:46):
There's a really neat skate park downtown too.
Oh yeah.
I've gone there a couple oftimes with my kids and they
really enjoy going on theirscooters.
Nice.
So that's a lot of fun.
It's, it's odd though.
We're talking about GrandRapids, but I spent so little
time in downtown Grand Rapids,most of my favorite things about
Grand Rapids are just one, thevibe in general to it's sort of
(20:09):
that greater Grand Rapids areaand the suburbs around it, for
sure, really not as big of adowntown guy.
Do you spend a lot of timedowntown specifically?
Ben (20:18):
Not as much now, but I did back when I did Uber and Lyft, I
was downtown.
All the time.
Every week.
All the time.
Yeah.
And I would drive people fromthose suburbs to downtown.
Um, I got to know, like, latenight pizza places really well.
There's a couple of them.
Fratelli's has the best pizza.
(20:38):
And then there's also Vito's,which, it's gritty, but it has
charm.
And you just have to experienceit.
Have you been to either ofthose?
I haven't.
I'll have to check that out forsure.
They open till 4am.
Wow.
But yeah, there is justsomething about the downtown
area in particular that is.
(21:01):
I like it.
Yeah.
Like I could see myself havinglike a condo in a high rise or
something someday.
But then I also think about thefact that I would have to
sacrifice having a loft,sacrifice having a backyard.
So there's definitely some prosand cons to being in the
suburbs, but, uh, I love themboth.
Jim (21:23):
I thought about that when they put up that the newest high
rise with all the condos, Ithought that would be kind of
neat to live in there.
Do you ever think about likewhat your life would be like if
you didn't have a wife, didn'thave kids, just, it's just Ben,
Ben (21:43):
yeah, I would certainly be downtown in a high rise.
Jim (21:47):
The reason I couched it like that is because I think,
well, for some reason, my brainisn't just like, no
hypothetical.
It's more of like, well, mywhole family tragically died.
And so now, now I'm single andwhat would I do?
And I have thought.
That specifically, like itwould, I think it would,
obviously it would change youright as a person, but I don't
(22:09):
know, I think I might be a lotmore likely to just live
downtown in a loft or somethinglike that, as opposed to in a
house.
But now in this economy, Ithink, no, I wouldn't move
because I'm actually locked inat an affordable rate with my
mortgage.
So boring me would would end upbasically just living in a big
(22:31):
house by myself.
Yeah.
But hypothetically.
I could see how it would be coolto live in one of those lofts.
Have you ever been up therebefore?
Ben (22:40):
I've never been to a residential loft high up, but I
have, clients that have beenthere.
Offices in some of thosebuildings, I have a friend that
worked in one for a time, and hetook me to the rooftop deck.
That's cool.
It's so cool.
Seeing everything, seeing theriver all the way up north to
(23:02):
like, Ann Street, being able tosee that from downtown.
Oh yeah.
It's pretty great.
Speaking of work.
I love that my job has taken meall over the city.
I've got clients that are closeto downtown.
I've got clients that are off inthe suburbs, clients that are in
super rural areas, just outsideof Grand Rapids.
(23:24):
My job lets me go and see allthat the city has to offer.
It's pretty great
Jim (23:30):
in my job.
A lot of times I get to seeinside of different buildings in
the area.
We appraise things.
So how much is this propertyworth or whatever?
So every once in a while, I'llget to go into some really big
industrial building or, youknow, Behind the scenes of a
bakery or wow.
I didn't realize that this placehad apartments above it.
(23:53):
And it is just so neat to seekind of that side of the city.
I don't want to say anyspecifics, but like I've been
places where I think those aresome of the more fun ones, the
tucked away apartments.
There's a lot.
There's a lot of mixed usebuildings in the city.
And by that, I mean, on thebottom floor, there's a retail
(24:15):
and then there's like anapartment on top
Ben (24:18):
or an Airbnb sometimes.
Jim (24:20):
Can you imagine living above a bakery?
Ben (24:24):
Oh, I would spend so much money at the bakery
Jim (24:26):
or a coffee shop.
Oh my word.
And the smells in the morning.
If you live above a bakery or acoffee shop and you're
listening, you have to reach outand share your experience.
No kidding.
Ben (24:40):
Please do.
Jim (24:41):
Oh my gosh.
That would be heavenly.
I'm curious if there's any placethat you got to experience
Because of your job that youwouldn't have even known about
in the Grand Rapids area.
Ben (24:55):
Yes, when they were putting up one of the newest buildings,
I was under the impression thatit was a brand new build, but
no, they were building up on topof an existing structure.
So I got to go in and see theold structure, which was kind of
like top secret and peopledidn't know it was there.
(25:16):
And I got to see just how roughof condition that these suites
were in.
I mean, it had like uglyeighties carpet and wood
paneling on the walls.
And it was just very,,rough andthis was in a brand new
building.
So from the outside, you thinkyou're walking into this brand
(25:37):
new build, but you get insideand you realize.
Oh, this first three floorshaven't been touched since the
eighties.
They're nasty.
So that was kind of a fun behindthe scenes peek.
Jim (25:51):
That is cool.
We've gotten a chance to see alot of rundown buildings and not
to say That grand Rapids haslike a whole blighted area
necessarily.
But especially when you'relooking at old industrial
buildings, sometimes you mighthave something that had fire
damage and, oh yeah, I remembermy dad telling me a story of him
(26:11):
falling through the floor of abuilding that he went into it.
You just gotta be careful whenyou're in some of those old
buildings, but there's some neatarchitecture when you go
downtown.
Yeah.
A lot of unique experiences,like you said, axe throwing, and
obviously a lot of microbreweries where they actually
make the beer on site.
(26:33):
Yeah.
A lot of escape rooms that theyhave.
Um, some of the bounce gyms inthe area that I've taken my kids
to, like, there's so many uniquethings that you can do.
Have you ever done like thecarriage ride or anything like
that through downtown?
Ben (26:48):
No, but.
I've always been curious aboutit, but I want to try the, um,
the pedal bars.
Have you seen these?
Jim (26:57):
I have seen those.
Yeah.
Ben (26:59):
Like you can sit like you're sitting at a bar enjoying
beverages and you're operating avehicle.
So help me understand thatlegally.
But at any rate, these, mobilebars, they're powered by bicycle
pedals and everybody at the barpedals and you move down the
street and then there's abartender who goes with you and
(27:22):
is a guide for the city and theyhave a microphone and they're
giving tours.
It's the craziest, coolestthing.
I haven't tried it yet.
Jim (27:30):
The longer you describe that, the more I don't want to
do it.
Ben (27:36):
You have to pedal the whole time.
So you're pedaling, but you'resitting down and you're
drinking.
So I guess it makes it better.
Jim (27:42):
I just imagine like spilling beer all over myself.
And then I, I remember I wenton.
Like a boat to her one time thathad alcohol and it was free,
right?
It's free quote unquote with thepurchase.
And there was another couplethat just got sloppy drunk and
it just ruined it because theywere so stinking obnoxious.
(28:05):
So I'm picturing like the guywho's 17 shots ahead of you on
this pedal bike tour, liketrying to intentionally knock
this thing over.
It doesn't sound appealing tome, Ben.
Not so much.
I think you like, you, you mightlike that a little more than I
do.
Ben (28:20):
I think I would, it would be kind of fun.
Jim (28:23):
I think if you could book it out with like your friends
and you knew that it was justpeople, you knew that the part
that I does not sound fun to meis being stuck next to some
rando that.
Yes.
Not so much.
You and I can go just the two ofus.
Can you imagine like, we just doour own, like on a pedal bike,
(28:45):
just drinking alcohol downtown.
Ben (28:48):
It would be so much fun to have one of those pedal drinking
bar things with.
Real men hug fans.
Jim (28:55):
Oh my goodness.
Yeah.
Well, we'll have to do that whenwe strike it big.
We're we're already growing.
It's a, it's phenomenal.
Ben (29:02):
It's been a ton of fun.
Jim (29:03):
It's been so much fun recording this podcast with you,
Ben.
Ben (29:06):
I agree, Jim.
Jim (29:07):
Love it.
Are you a fan of coffee shops?
Ben (29:10):
I know you go to Starbucks occasionally.
Jim (29:13):
So, um, I, I, the only reason I ever go to Starbucks is
when I have a gift card at thispoint.
I just, with this expensive itas it is now, I really would
much rather support a localcoffee shop than go to
Starbucks.
They're going to do fine withoutme, you know, and it's not to
say that I don't go there.
(29:33):
You know, the last time you andI sat down for coffee, it was
pretty good.
At a Starbucks.
Yeah.
I like some of the local places.
Haggerty's is one that's rightby I, I've really enjoyed going
there.
I think sort of a staple that'sbeen around since you and I were
in college and before, I don'tknow how much before, but the
(29:54):
bitter
Ben (29:54):
end,
Jim (29:56):
because they're open is all night or just until like, Oh my
goodness.
Ben (30:01):
I spent so many late nights there working on college stuff.
Jim (30:06):
That's one of the neat things about living in a place
like Grand Rapids A lot of bigcities, it's like the whole city
is awake forever.
Yeah.
Grand Rapids is this weirdhybrid where so many things shut
down and you're like, what dowe.
Do you, but there are a fewdiamonds out there that are just
24, seven.
I
Ben (30:26):
mean, you've got yesterdog that stays open late and then
you have Vito's pizza that we'vetalked about already.
I'm sensing a theme.
I like all the places that areopen late,
Jim (30:36):
like Meijer.
I'm not anymore.
They're still open.
Like they're open till midnight.
Meijer pre COVID Meijer used tobe 24 hours.
24 hours a day, 364 days a year.
They were only closed onChristmas.
It kind of makes sense though.
Like if you went there at fourin the morning, it's like just
(30:58):
you and it's really, they'rerestocking the shelves.
So they thought, well, we'llclose all the doors, but two and
we'll just have a couple ofcashiers.
But, uh, Honestly, I, it kind ofmakes sense because they're
still open until midnight or twoor whatever.
Anyways, when was the last timeyou had to go as an adult to
Meijer that late at night?
Ben (31:19):
It was ride share driving because I was going to make
breakfast the next morning
Jim (31:24):
and they were closed and you were upset.
Ben (31:27):
No, this is whack when they were, Oh, I appreciated it.
But that's the last time that Iwent as a late night shopper.
Jim (31:33):
I think that we would go there sometimes as college
students.
Like after you had already donea bunch of stuff and you're
like, well, I'm already out andabout, so I might as well go to
Meijer too.
Ben (31:44):
Did you ever go to Meijer just because you wanted to get
out of the dorm?
Jim (31:51):
I don't think I did.
I know a lot of people did, butto me that always felt a little
obnoxious.
Yeah.
Now, I don't want to say to thepeople that did it, just, I
think even back then I wasthoughtful of how I would be
perceived by the people at thestore.
And I didn't just want to bethat college kid wandering
(32:13):
around Meijer and I just didn'thave a ton of money.
So what am I going to do?
You know, look at the thingsthat I'm not going to buy.
Ben (32:24):
I remember some students had like, let's see who can stay
in the building the longest typeof challenges.
I'd never did them, but what ahilarious idea before you get
kicked out.
How long can you stay?
Jim (32:37):
Yeah, as long as you're not being obnoxious or breaking any
rules or anything like that, Ican see how you'd have fun doing
that.
Oh, yeah.
So many memories of that kind ofstuff.
We talked about some of the bigwigs, DeVos, Van Andel, and
Meijer.
I'm curious, some of the peoplewho are more like local heroes
to you that have made a reallybig impact that have given back
to the city, but not necessarilythat have a name that shouts
(33:01):
quite as loud as.
Yeah.
Ben (33:05):
In my current job, one of my clients is Mel Trotter
Ministries, which is thehomeless shelter downtown.
It's one of several, but it'sdefinitely the largest.
And they also have a lot ofdifferent programs to help
people step out of homelessnessand into having a job.
(33:26):
They've got drug rehab programs,just remarkable stuff.
So when I think about.
The people that I look up to inGrand Rapids, it's definitely
those who have given their livesto serving that population.
Um, and Mel Trotter does suchamazing work in our city.
(33:46):
Yeah.
so I have a friend who left hisjob to go work at Mel Trotter.
He's likely paid less than hewould be.
And I also have met some reallycool people who similarly had
jobs in different professions.
One of them was an amazingsalesperson who I looked up to
(34:11):
in my sales career.
She decided that, She wanted todo something more in line with
her values and she just got kindof tired of selling stuff So she
made the jump into funddevelopment and now she works at
Meltrotter basically Workingwith all of the businesses that
(34:31):
contribute financially to themission She's the one that's
going out and essentiallyselling that to businesses.
So Yeah.
That's what comes to mind for meis just the people who could
have done very differently forthemselves and maybe even made
more than they're making now forsure.
(34:51):
But they chose to do differentbecause they love the people of
Grand Rapids.
Jim (34:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
I've met a couple people from ElTrotter as well.
What a great, what a greatministry that is downtown to the
homeless population.
Have you met or talked withJeshua before that works at Mel
Trotter.
I think he's on the board ofdirectors.
Ben (35:12):
He's on the board.
Yeah.
I'm connected to him on LinkedInand he's got a lot of good posts
that he puts out, but I've neverreally sat down and met him
ever.
Jim (35:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I actually have sat down withhim for coffee during my Edward
Jones days.
Um, he sat and talked with meand I actually came to Mel
Trotter and it was justinteresting to hear them talking
about homelessness and it reallystruck me how they said it's
really not a lack of resourcesor finances.
(35:44):
It's actually relationships,broken relationships that
ultimately are what end inhomelessness and just that.
Fact really hit me hard.
Ben (35:56):
Yeah, yeah, that is a big part of my family's DNA in this
season of life.
We have been attending a churchin the inner city, and we have
many among us who do live atMaltrotter, who are recovering
from drug addiction or who are,stepping their way out of
(36:18):
homelessness.
The thing that makes them themost successful is
relationships.
One of the things that we offeras a church is transportation,
and the church van goes out andpicks up people who otherwise
would not be able to get to thebuilding easily.
And so these people are comingfrom low income apartments,
(36:39):
they're coming from Meltrotter,they're coming from all over the
place.
And it's so incredible to seepeople who are Uh, wanting to
get back on their feet, actuallydoing that work and making the
effort and coming to church.
The relationships are definitelythe thing that are the benchmark
(37:03):
for success.
It seems like, yeah, those whohave those connections are the
ones who do move into A betterlife for themselves.
So that's a really good point.
Jim (37:15):
Yeah.
Grand Rapids has some reallygreat ministries downtown.
Another one that I'm familiarwith is base camp.
An old friend of mine from mycornerstone days, Kelly Ellis,
is one of the people that runsthat program.
And you talk about people wholike chose to do something
(37:35):
because it's something that theybelieve in and something that
they're passionate about.
I am confident that Kelly man,she could easily be a
multimillionaire with herpersonality.
Like she could build it big.
And if that was her goal inlife, then she could do that.
But she cares about people andshe cares about inner city youth
(37:58):
and making an impact.
So I, I.
Always loved it when I got achance to talk to her, both at
my cornerstone days, as well as,I worked at a bank for a while
and every once in a while she'dpop in and I'd get a chance to
talk to her.
And I just loved hearing herperspective on things that I
honestly just had a huge blindspot for.
(38:20):
I would say right now I'm.
Independent with conservative,you know, leanings, I guess, or
at least a background in that,but at the time I would say I
was probably more of like amoderate conservative and it's
so funny that we would talk allthe time and I'd hear all these
perspectives and I was justcurious about what.
(38:44):
She believed in her perspectiveon it.
And so after months and monthsof, of talking about this, all
of a sudden she cued intosomething where she sort of said
like, well, of course, and I'mlike, well, I would think that
for different reasons.
She said, what are you talkingabout?
And I'm like, well, I'm.
I'm conservative.
And she said, what?
(39:04):
She had no idea because I alwaysapproach those conversations
just out of curiosity.
And so I got to hear heropinions on a lot of things
especially when it came to likeimmigration and things like
that.
Oh, sure.
Um, and like the border and allthat kind of thing that I just
was really, Uninformed or likeIsrael and Palestine.
(39:28):
And this was way obviouslybefore the situation now, but
she has so many insights intothat, that I just was curious
what she had to say.
And I learned so much aboutthat.
And so I just always loved herability to see the other and
that she just really cares aboutpeople.
I just love that there arepeople like Kelly.
(39:50):
In those ministries that aremaking a difference right here
in Grand Rapids.
So big shout out to Kelly Ellis.
I love you and your work.
Ben (39:58):
Is she a listener already?
Jim (39:59):
I don't know if she is, but I'm definitely going to have to
tag her in this episode now.
So
Ben (40:03):
Kelly, if you're listening, thank you.
Jim (40:06):
I'm just a big fan of yours, Kelly.
I think it's people like Kelly,like Jeshua and yeah, sure.
Even the big ones like theDeVos's and the Van Andels that
really make Grand Rapids such awonderful place to live.
Ben (40:21):
For as many fond memories that I have of Grand Rapids, and
there are so many of them, GrandRapids is also a place where a
lot of people.
Difficult things happen too.
And so just as I can recall,like the dates to yesterdog with
my wife and the bike trips onthe white pine trail and going
(40:45):
to TGI Fridays with collegebuddies downtown for as many
good memories like that, there'salso difficult memories.
I don't think I can ever go to.
The Panera bread in Standale,because that was where I went
with my former boss and it wasduring that conversation that he
(41:08):
basically asked me what it wouldtake for me to leave my job.
He apparently didn't feel likehe could just tell me to pack my
bags and be done.
So he instead shifted ourconversation to what's it going
to take to get Ben to gosomewhere else.
That was a really hardconversation and it really.
(41:31):
shook me to my core to go fromexcelling in this job, bringing
in one of our largest clients,the library system in the
county.
That was a really difficultthing that happened here in
Grand Rapids.
I will avoid places that havethose more negative memories
(41:54):
attached to them.
Jim (41:55):
Yeah, I think we all have stuff like that, right?
That just doesn't sit well withyou and it's better to just
avoid altogether.
So, it's Panera Bread apparentlyfor you and Stan.
Only that one.
I can go
Ben (42:08):
to any other Panera Bread.
In fact, the Panera Bread just,Like two miles north in on
Alpine is where I was at when Igot the phone call that I Was
hired for my job now.
Okay, and that was a really goodphone call
Jim (42:27):
I didn't have quite the same experience, but Cornerstone
University was a big one for meI had been back there once or
twice after I lost my job whenthere were still people there
that I had worked with to kindof say hello, but then there was
this big gap of time and after Ihad moved, From South Carolina
(42:50):
and then back again to Michiganwhere it's just, I didn't really
want to go onto campus and itreally wasn't until we had that
reunion with the group fromCornerstone.
I think that helped me be atpeace with the university.
(43:11):
I agree.
It just always felt a little bitmore.
Weird having to be on campus oreven sometimes driving by it.
Or if I had to, for whateverreason, go there, but being able
to go there with a group ofpeople and have nostalgia over
these fun memories and have thatshared experience that didn't
(43:33):
have all those negative thingstied to it.
It really was healing for me tobe able to go back and do that.
Ben (43:40):
I had a very similar experience when we were there,
though I didn't ever work atCornerstone.
I certainly had a great deal ofanxiety, panic attack, mental
health struggles that I hid fromeverybody as we talked about on
episode one.
And being back on campus withour group for the reunion, it
(44:05):
was good, but it was also reallyhard because as we're walking to
where the baseball stadium isnow, like I could look and see.
Oh, that's where the old ballfield used to be.
And that's one of the placesthat I would go and just kind of
have a meltdown.
And Oh, there's the pond overthere.
(44:26):
I spent so many hours away frompeople sitting by the pond.
There were like cattail typeplants or reeds that grew around
the pond.
I would go and sit in them sothat nobody would be able to see
me.
And then there was this hugetree by the seminary building
that I could just hide in.
(44:48):
So being on campus was in a lotof ways.
It's hard.
Yeah.
Because I am in a very differentplace now.
The fact that I'm doing thisshow, the fact that I'm open
about my feelings and mystruggles with anxiety, I wasn't
then.
(45:08):
And so to walk around the campuswhere got real, I mean, it was,
it was hard, but like you'resaying, it was also very, very
good.
Jim (45:19):
For sure.
I mean, I got engaged on campus.
Yeah.
I wish I could go back to whereI proposed.
That's something that my advice,if you are yet unmarried,
propose somewhere that you cango back to, because what a
bummer that.
I can't really like revisitbecause it was in the basement
(45:40):
of one of the houses.
There were like flowers and rosepetals and music.
So it was a lot cooler than itsounds on air.
Especially now it's like thisdingy old basement.
I got to see it one timeafterwards, but it is not been
well taken care of.
Actually, speaking of that, thecandlelight thing that they had
(46:00):
on campus, that was really neat.
That tradition where like allthe people around campus would
form like the tunnel of arms.
Everyone would put their handsup in the air and form a tunnel.
where the guy would be waitingat the, like, the bell tower,
right?
(46:21):
Tunnel and then you would kissafter going through that and
everyone would cheer and thenyou'd climb up the tower and
you'd ring the bell and then youget thrown into the pond kind of
deal.
It sounds absurd, but there wasso much energy and it was just
so fun to kind of be able tocelebrate with the community for
(46:42):
that.
That's that's a really funmemory.
Of mine from that campus too.
So, oh yes, fond memories ofGrand Rapids for sure, but hard
things as well.
So I think we're both in thatboat.
For me, obviously leaving GrandRapids and coming back, I'm kind
of curious if it's the same wayeverywhere else, but I just
(47:05):
didn't feel the same communitymoving down South where I really
felt like an outsider.
I, I wonder if it would be thesame for somebody moving to
Grand Rapids because to me it'salways felt like a place where
everybody is welcome versusmoving to the South where I
suddenly realized that Southernhospitality is for other
(47:28):
Southerners and relatives whoare like visiting, right?
It is not for the Yankees, thatis for sure.
So I was not feeling the love.
When I lived in South Carolina,but then weirdly when I moved
back after it was not even twoyears, a year and a half, and it
felt like life had moved onwithout me.
(47:49):
And I almost felt like I had tostart all over again after just
a year and a half.
So it's this really surrealexperience of feeling like an
outsider in my own community.
Did you feel that at all afteryou moved back from Oregon?
Ben (48:05):
First of all, I'm super proud of you for pronouncing
Oregon correctly.
That was really good.
I usually have to correct peopleand I was gearing myself up to
say it's Oregon, not Oregon.
Oregano.
Yeah.
When I moved back from Oregon, Idid not land in Grand Rapids
first.
(48:26):
I actually lived with myparents.
My family, lived with my parentsfor a time, and they're in
Zeeland, which I would notconsider Part of Grand Rapids or
a suburb of Grand Rapids?
No, it's a suburb of Holland,basically,
Jim (48:43):
but it is still very Dutch.
Ben (48:44):
It is.
I mean, Zeeland, Holland, howmuch more Dutch can you get?
And it's a very differentculture from Grand Rapids, at
least from my experience.
Going from Portland, Oregon,which in a lot of ways is very
similar to Grand Rapids, just amuch bigger scale, very similar
(49:08):
sense of community, uh, justwhimsical things that are fun to
go see and enjoy.
out and about in the city.
To go from that to high strungDutch blue collar Zeeland was,
ugh, it was so hard.
So we stayed there for ninemonths and then we spent a short
(49:32):
time even further out in thecountry.
It was just so isolating to bein those places.
But then finally my aunts had arental house in.
The city of Grand Rapids and werented there for a number of
years and loved it Just got toknow our neighbors Kids went to
(49:55):
school close by it wasphenomenal and we got plugged
into a church so moving to GrandRapids for me was very life
giving after a season of Soyeah, coming back, it was like
being a freshman at Cornerstoneand experiencing all of the
(50:17):
goodness of Grand Rapids.
Experiencing it all again forthe first time, even though it
wasn't the first time.
It was great coming back.
Jim (50:27):
That's good to hear.
I had a little bit of adifferent experience for sure,
but It's just hard to say no toGrand Rapids.
I know for us, that's literally,we moved back because this is
just where we belonged.
Ben (50:44):
One of the things that I noticed after moving back after
being away for Nearly a decadeis that when I did see people in
Grand Rapids that I knew fromthe past, whether it was college
or something else, it's likethey had this idea of who I was
(51:04):
back then, and I very much wasnot that person anymore coming
back to Grand Rapids.
And I had a number of people whoI just didn't connect well with
anymore because of the growthand development and dealing with
(51:24):
my own stuff.
I did a lot of work on myselfduring that span of time away
from here.
So in some ways, coming back wasa jolt to my system because
people were expecting Ben to bethis way, but Ben's actually not
that way.
Yeah.
How do you reconcile those?
So I definitely felt that movingback.
(51:46):
Did you experience anything likethat after moving back from
South Carolina?
Jim (51:52):
I think I felt it in myself, you know, where I, for
some reason, I think I was justexpecting everything to be the
same when I came back and evenpeople you hung out with all the
time.
Well, of course you're justgoing to go right back to
hanging out.
And the thing is like they findother people to hang out with
(52:12):
and do things with.
And I still haven't talked aboutkind of my darkest day, which
was, you know, When I was inSouth Carolina, you know, while
I mentioned Edward Jones andthat whole process being like
one of the biggest parts of likesomething that I struggled with
today, as far as hardest in themoment, believe it or not,
(52:35):
actually the time that I wasdown in South Carolina, that was
an even bigger deal.
And so to come back from that,that is actually why we came
back was because.
My wife's mental health was justan absolute tatters.
Our marriage was being heldtogether with duct tape and
(52:55):
bubble gum.
And we just needed to get backto the support system that we
had in Grand Rapids and thefamiliarity of it all.
And even I remember my, myoldest son would cry like every
night because he missed GrandRapids and he missed, you know.
(53:17):
And he missed like all thesedifferent things.
He wanted to come back.
It just never really felt likehome for him.
And so it was hard seeing mywife falling apart and my son
falling apart.
My youngest was just blissfullyunaware, just kind of like love
and life and You know, he, heactually had a Southern accent
because it was like thosefundamental years where you're
(53:41):
learning how to talk.
So it was so funny to hear himsay things in a Southern accent.
And I was like, wait, what'shappening here?
Just bizarre.
But yeah, I was definitely adifferent person.
And I was, uh, I was in a prettydark place looking for
community.
So that for sure impacted my, mysense of belonging.
(54:04):
I guess as we wrap up thisepisode, that's it.
My call to you is not onlyfinding your people, but finding
that place that you belong.
I think having that supportsystem, I know for me, a lot of
times when you have Young kidsat home being able to have like
grandma and grandpa around oreven like friends that you can
do a swap with where you watchtheir kids sometimes and they
(54:27):
watch theirs community is such ahuge part of who we are and I
think finding the right placesometimes you have to make that
Big decision to move or uprootor whatever.
Um, but I recognize that's notthe reality for everybody.
Sometimes you just are where youare and you have to deal with
it.
So then I hope you can find yourpeople and move forward from
(54:50):
there.
Ben (54:54):
yeah, for whatever reason, as you were talking about
community and finding yourpeople, my mind.
Went to food truck Fridays thathappens at Riverside park.
And I think the reason why isbecause you were talking about
finding your people.
Well, you can find your peoplethere.
(55:15):
There's so much variety in thedifferent like food trucks that
come, you've got all differenttypes of ethnic food
represented, and it's this wholemelting pot of community and you
go there and you see people fromwork.
Or a church or even cornerstonesometimes and it's just
(55:36):
incredible good food Seeingpeople and I think that's what I
love so much about Grand Rapidsis that sense of community, and
it just means so much to havethat.
So, but yeah, I mean, noteverybody's going to be able to
uproot and move to Grand Rapids.
Jim (55:56):
Just come to Grand Rapids and your life will be better.
Ben (55:59):
Yeah, go to the food truck Fridays.
Ben's favorite event in thesummer.
Jim (56:03):
For sure.
Oh, the food here.
There's so many good places toeat.
Ben (56:08):
Yes.
Well, we could spend anotherhour talking about the favorite
places to eat.
But nonetheless, Grand Rapids isincredible.
The people are great.
The sense of community and thebelonging that we've both found
has been so helpful.
So if you are looking for aplace to build a life, Grand
(56:32):
Rapids isn't so bad.
Jim (56:35):
So glad we got a chance to hang out with you today and talk
about our favorite city.
Grand Rapids, a great place tolive, work, and eat some
delicious food.
Next time we're going to betalking about toxic positivity,
Ben (56:48):
toxic positivity.
Jim (56:53):
I had a brain fart, so I'm like, let me point at Ben who's
really good at thinking on hisfeet.
Ben (56:59):
Yeah.
So good.
Have you ever had a situationwhere.
It's just rough, but you feellike you somehow have to put a
positive spin on it, even thoughyou really don't want to.
And even though you really can'tthink of anything positive about
the situation you're goingthrough.
Well, that's the kind of thingthat we're going to explore on
(57:20):
our next episode.
As Jim mentioned, we're divinginto toxic positivity.
The tendency to put a silverlining or a bow on everything
that happens, no matter howharmful or painful it is, always
trying to find the positive andfocusing only on the positive.
(57:42):
Frankly, it's a bunch of BS.
So join us next week and we'llwade into the bullshit together.
Jim (57:49):
If you've ever felt guilty for having an emotion, you may
be entitled to compensation.
That's basically what ourepisode is going to be about.
Cause sometimes life is just badand bad things happen.
We're, we're already talkingabout the next episode.
So we'll catch you next time onReal Men Hug.
(58:10):
Be sure to like subscribe andshare.
Thanks for listening to real menhug side effects may include
increased empathy, enhancedcommunication skills, and an
irresistible urge to hug yourneighbor, consult your doctor
before listening to the nextepisode.
Ben (58:28):
From the banks of the Grand River to the white pine trail
that goes alongside of it.
Thank you for listening to realmen hug because flexing isn't
just for muscles.
It's for emotions, too.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.