March 28, 2024 • 52 mins
In this thought-provoking episode, hosts Ben and Jim delve into the complexities of toxic positivity, shedding light on its detrimental effects on emotional well-being. Through personal narratives and reflections, they navigate the societal pressures that often compel us to suppress our vulnerabilities under the guise of unwavering positivity.
Exploring the societal pressures that dictate how men should express themselves emotionally, Ben and Jim debunk the myth that strength equates to stoicism. Through personal anecdotes and expert insights, they uncover the profound impact of toxic positivity on mental health and relationships.
This episode serves as a heartfelt appeal for a cultural shift towards embracing genuine emotions and fostering connections grounded in empathy and understanding. Join Ben and Jim as they navigate the maze of toxic positivity with honesty and compassion, offering insights and encouragement to listeners who may be silently grappling with these societal pressures.
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Episode Transcript
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Ben (00:03):
Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Ben.
Jim (00:09):
And I'm Jim.
Ben (00:11):
And today we are here to put rose colored glasses and
shiny ribbon bows and silverlinings on all the terrible
things that have happened in ourlives.
Jim (00:23):
I am going to reach across this room and slap you.
Ben (00:25):
Bring Bring it on, Jim.
Jim (00:28):
Maybe I'll just hug you instead.
Ben (00:30):
I think.
That might be a better option.
Jim (00:33):
Probably more appropriate.
Yeah, perhaps, hmm.
Ben (00:38):
Well, in case you couldn't tell based on my.
Intro that caused Jim to want toslap me.
We will be talking about toxicpositivity on today's episode.
Jim (00:49):
I actually hadn't really heard of this.
Until I think it was just a yearor two ago and the first time I
heard it and then I read thedefinition, I was like ecstatic
because I feel like I have beena victim of toxic positivity and
I always felt like one, it washard to explain and two the
(01:10):
people who are toxicallypositive.
It's like, well, why, how couldbeing positive.
Be a bad thing.
So toxic positivity.
I'm reading this off of happierhuman.
com.
It's the excessive andinappropriate promotion of
positive thinking and happyemotions in situations where
(01:31):
such feelings would be misplacedor harmful.
It often takes the form of emptyplatitudes or forced
cheerfulness and can be damagingto both individuals and groups.
Ben (01:42):
Hmm.
I had a therapist who I firedafter about six weeks that at
the end of every session hewould extend his arms and
essentially ask for a hug.
that is toxic positivity rightthere.
His intent was not to be with mein that moment.
(02:03):
His intent was to have a cheekyfun ending to our session and
I'll be.
In brighter spirits.
Jim (02:11):
It's, it's sort of like the backslap hug kind of, yeah.
I'm doing this to make myselffeel better.
Almost right.
I'm really surprised to hear, Iguess I shouldn't be that
surprised.
Maybe I'll just say it this way.
A counselor shouldn't betouching you without consent.
Ben (02:30):
He did ask, but again, it was one of those situations
where it would be more awkwardif I said no.
And that may just be an exampleof a poor boundary I had at that
time.
Jim (02:43):
I think it depends on intent for sure.
A hug in and of itself should bea good thing.
But if it's, especially if it'sfrom somebody that like you
don't want the hug from, I thinkthat's probably where it really
becomes a toxic thing.
Right?
Ben (03:00):
Definitely.
what do you do if somebodyoffers a hug, but you're really
not interested?
It's almost more awkward to nothug them in that moment.
Jim (03:11):
I think.
When somebody really wants tohug you for the most part, I
will let them just because Iknow that they need it.
It's pretty rare for me, butagain, I have a pretty
privileged history for lack of abetter term.
I don't know if a hug has everbeen given to me in an abusive
way or anything like that.
(03:31):
And so for me, it's pretty easyto be like, well, this person
really wants a hug, so that'sfine.
But I've actually never Taughtmy kids not to do that, where
literally I'll say, if you wantsomebody to hug you, then.
You can do that, but if youdon't, then just say, no, you
have autonomy to do that.
And I think we talked about thatin a previous episode where a
(03:54):
lot of times that sexual abusecomes from somebody that you're
related to, to somebody that,you know, so I don't want my
kids ever to feel like they haveto hug somebody.
And I feel like maybe that'sbackfired a little bit with my
nine year old because like, hejust never wants to be hugged.
And I can't believe like as hisdad, he doesn't.
(04:14):
Want me to hug him and, Oh, itjust drives me nuts.
Cause I want to hug him so bad.
Cause I love him.
He's my kid, but I want torespect that too.
So every once in a while I justhave to ask him really nicely,
like, Hey, please, for dad, canyou give me a hug?
It would really mean a lot.
He might come over and he'llfrown while I'm hugging him, but
(04:34):
he will.
He's given me permission.
He's let's me know.
It's not his favorite thing.
He'd rather not be doing it ifhe could, but every once in a
while, especially like if he'snot feeling well, he might more.
Snuggle up next to me.
And it's almost like he doesn'trealize that it's physical
(04:55):
touch, but otherwise, yeah, hejust kind of recoils like a cat.
Anytime I get close to him.
Ben (05:04):
I'm thinking about my own hugging experience.
I am typically not one toinitiate the hug, but I am
always grateful when somebodyoffers the hug.
So I guess it's not my innatenature to approach somebody for
a hug, but.
You were talking about your son.
It reminds me of my daughter.
She's like the opposite of that.
(05:27):
I'll be making dinner in thekitchen and very focused on the
recipe or cutting the vegetablesor seasoning the meat or making
gosh, roasted garlic.
I did that last night.
Side note, your wife would bereally proud of me for all of my
kitchen achievements.
But I'm focused on that world.
(05:48):
And then my daughter comes inand She sees her dad, and she
wants to give her dad a hug.
So she comes over, and I've got,like, a knife in my hand, or,
you know, my hand's in chicken,or whatever the case may be, and
she'll just give me a hug.
And I turn around, and it's justthe greatest thing.
Jim (06:06):
Oh my gosh, that's so sweet.
Ben (06:07):
Oh yeah.
I love hugs.
I'm reminded of a time where Iwas working with a friend on a
manual labor type project, whichthat's not my comfort zone by
any means.
I was sweaty.
I was stressed.
I don't think I could figuresomething out that I needed to
have figured out and he couldtell that I was pretty worked up
(06:31):
about it.
So he just looks over and he'slike, can I give you a hug?
And in that moment, it genuinelywas what I needed.
Yeah.
He wasn't saying, I'm going tofix all your problems by giving
you a hug and sending you onyour way.
It was his way of saying, bro, Isee you.
And.
(06:52):
You're having a hard time, and Ijust, I see you in that, and I'm
going to give you a hug, just asa way of communicating that I'm
here, that I'm present, I'm withyou.
That's a very different vibethan, let's hug because we need
to end this therapy session on agood note.
(07:13):
So that's the contrast for me.
The toxic positivity versus theYeah.
Life is sometimes just hard.
Yeah.
That's okay.
Jim (07:23):
I'm glad you bring that up too, because I think a lot of
people right away would be like,well, sure.
Sure.
You just pessimistic all thetime.
No, not at all.
There's nothing wrong with beingoptimistic.
There's nothing wrong withseeing the good in a bad
situation.
The issue with toxic positivityis someone who is truly
toxically positive doesn't wantto deal with their own feelings
(07:48):
or the feelings of others.
And so they're trying to dismissit in a way that they think is a
good thing.
Like there's that bumper stickerthat's like good vibes only.
A lot of times when I see thatit is really dismissive of
people who are going through ahard time.
So when your whole life has beengreat and perfect, good for you,
(08:10):
but for most of the rest of us,that's not been the case.
And so when.
You say good vibes only you'rebasically saying, Hey, things
are going well for me.
So I don't want to deal withyour situation.
Just look at the bright side orthere's always a silver lining
or, you know, just pray aboutit.
Ben (08:33):
Oh man.
Yes.
Jim (08:35):
Kind of that, like, you know what, it's, it's what
doesn't kill you makes youstronger.
Ben (08:41):
It's such a toxic line.
Yeah.
You said the, just pray aboutit.
Like there's this falseunderstanding among Christian
people that life should be.
Not easy, but every bad thingthat happens in your life, you
should have like a Bible answerfor it, right?
And you're not allowed to reallyfeel down or depressed about
(09:06):
something because that shows alack of faith So even in the
Christian context that we bothhave had experience with oh,
yeah There's a huge pressure tobe toxically positive like the
whole God won't give youanything more than you can bear.
There's just this Misconceptionthat runs deep within that group
(09:29):
of people that if you're goingthrough a hard time, you've got
to put a positive spin on it, nomatter what.
Because if you don't, you don'thave faith.
Jim (09:38):
God won't give you more than you can handle.
Always.
Just hit me so hard in anegative way that it is so
dismissive of that person'ssituation.
And it's not even true, right?
Like there are people wholiterally can't handle it.
I'm sitting there thinking likethat person was like a deeply
faithful person who killedthemself, or who, you know, had
(10:04):
a mental breakdown, or who Endedup getting divorced and it's
just so dismissive of theemotions and feelings.
You're saying, I'm dealing witha really hard time right now for
that person to turn around andsay, well, you know, God, God
never gives you more than youcan handle just means you're a
(10:24):
strong person.
I just want to say no, likethat's not, that's not helping
me.
You can just say, I'm reallysorry that you're going through
a tough time.
Ben (10:33):
Yes.
Yeah.
That also brings to mind aconversation we had on an
earlier episode when you weretelling me that I wasn't taking
enough credit for my parentingof kids from rough places.
Jim (10:48):
Sure.
Ben (10:49):
And I'm not.
Trying to say that you werebeing toxically positive,
because I know your intent, andI know where you were coming
from, and in that conversation,it didn't strike me that way.
Jim (10:59):
Sure.
Ben (11:00):
But you know me, you know my story, you know my
weaknesses, you know how I tendto have a lower view of myself.
than necessary and you werechallenging me on it like a
friend should.
However, when I meet people whosay things like that to me
without knowing me or withoutknowing my kids, things like,
(11:23):
that's just so incredible thatyou rescued those children from
foster care.
And it's so dismissive of Theentire experience.
Jim (11:33):
Sure.
Ben (11:33):
It's dismissive of the trauma and the pain that these
kids had to endure that led themto us.
When you look at only us and thefact that we are these hero
figures for being adoptiveparents, that's toxically
positive because you are notpaying any attention for sure.
The Children.
(11:55):
Who should not be in thissituation, but they are.
So instead of telling me, Wow,you are just an amazing person
for being a foster or adoptiveparent.
Maybe just be like, Wow, thatmust be hard to bring a child
into your family that has nocontext.
Tell me about that.
Yeah.
Like, that sounds so much moreaffirming than the toxic, You're
(12:19):
a hero.
Yeah.
Mentality that I get so oftenfrom people.
Jim (12:23):
Toxic positivity doesn't want to dive into that messy
middle.
It only wants to see thepositive things.
Yes.
It's the Facebook highlightreel, the Instagram highlight
reel, right?
Everything is polished.
You only ever show when you getthe new car or you go on the
vacation.
And it never dives into any ofthose negative things.
(12:46):
It's all about just the positivethings.
And again, there's nothing wrongwith focusing on those things,
but when you refuse to everaddress those, it's really a
shallow, insincere thing.
And sometimes it can beincredibly hurtful when you
don't meet somebody where theyare and you dismiss them with
(13:08):
language like that, where it'sjust like, you know, it's going
to be okay, or.
Why don't you smile, just smile,and it'll be better, right?
Have you ever had somebody justtell you to smile when you were
sitting there?
Like with a frown on your face.
Ben (13:24):
No, I don't think I have.
However, I have some friends onFacebook and they post pictures
of their kids and their kidsalmost never smile.
And I just get this vibe ofseriously, like the least the
kid could do is smile in afamily photo.
And I found myself annoyed.
(13:45):
And I've even posted commentslike pointing out the frown on
one of the kid's faces.
That's pretty toxic.
Positivity right there.
I'm not comfortable seeing myfriends family pictures where
their teenagers aren't smilingHmm, so yeah, I say your kids
should smile more and that's notThe answer
Jim (14:07):
right?
Yeah, that actually is anexample for sure of toxic
positivity where hey, hold on aminute You're not smiling in
this picture.
That's not okay And I thinkthat's really what we're trying
to get to for those of you whoare optimist listening to this
Again, not saying there'sanything wrong with that.
But sometimes optimism can maskAn inability to deal with
(14:30):
negative emotions, and that cancome from trauma.
You've went through such a toughsituation that you told
yourself, I'm going to bepositive in spite of my
circumstances.
And in a lot of ways that hasbeen really helpful for you
because you've been able to staypositive regardless of some
(14:51):
really horrible things thatyou've went through.
But then you're not dealing withthose tough things.
Because you're not.
Dealing with your emotions.
And I think maybe an even higherechelon level of toxic
positivity is the person who'slived the truly hashtag blessed
life where they just haven't.
(15:13):
Had to deal with hardship intheir life.
Everything has been perfect forthem and it just makes them
uncomfortable being aroundpeople who haven't had the same
level of privilege.
And so they're totally missingthat perspective that there are
people out there who can'tafford housing.
(15:34):
Right.
Or food or food that don't getto go on multiple international
trips every year, in spite ofhow hard that they are trying to
work to get there and the, thetruly highest tier toxic
positive person, they just don'twant to have to deal with the
fact that not everybody isblessed and privileged as they
(15:56):
are.
Yes.
So I have a lot more sympathyfor somebody that first version
of toxic positivity.
That's somebody who's beenthrough trauma and they're
trying their best to put on abrave face.
But that poker face that you'reputting on, you're not really
dealing with all those traumathat you have underlining and
you're hurting not onlyyourself, but the people around
(16:18):
you by always having that smile.
Yeah.
It's okay to cry.
Ben (16:23):
Oh, for sure.
For sure.
It's okay to be angry.
It's okay to feel hurt.
All of those things, they havetheir place.
On a recent episode, you and Iwere talking about revisiting
our college campus and for bothof us, there were a lot of
negative emotions associatedwith that.
And as we're talking aboutpeople dealing with their
(16:44):
traumas and the tendency to, um,smile through it and just put
their best foot forward and allthe cliches.
One thing that gets overlookedin that process is actually
going and sitting with yourtrauma and allowing yourself to
feel those things in thosemoments.
(17:05):
I was listening to a podcast,and this is dangerous because I
listened to so many of them thatI couldn't tell you what podcast
it was, but the person wastalking about trauma and how to
process trauma when you havethose thoughts that pop up in
your mind that Bring yourtraumatic experience to the
surface so often we feel thepressure to push them away.
(17:28):
That's toxic positivity Yeah,it's pushing it away and saying
I'm not gonna dwell on that.
That was yesterday Things aredifferent now for as true as
those statements may be Yourmind is needing you to slow down
and be with those thoughts.
And the more that you try topush those thoughts or memories
(17:52):
or questions or doubts or fears,the more you try to push them
away because you think it's thepositive thing to do, you're
actually taking steps backwardsin your process of healing from
trauma.
In order to truly heal fromtrauma, you need to sit with
those feelings and thosethoughts.
(18:14):
Now, if they start to consumeyou and you, are in a bad place,
well, of course, get the helpthat you need.
But I think A lot of times wejust rushed through those
feelings.
We don't pay attention to thembecause we've trained ourselves
that we just need to put ourgame face on and make it through
(18:37):
and toughen it out.
And, but in fact, that'sactually leading us farther away
from healing.
Despite the difficult memories,it was so cathartic and healing
for me to actually walk on apath that I walked many times
while I was having nervousbreakdowns or panic attacks or
(19:00):
racing thoughts or anxiety.
I walked on that path.
And I didn't feel those things.
I felt instead, support and lovefrom this group of people that
after 20 years still caresenough to get together.
And in that moment, I allowedmyself to push past the toxic
(19:23):
positivity, to allow myself toremember those things, but then
to also just be with my peoplewho, who get it, who get me, and
nobody was saying things like,Oh, well, just look at all the
good things that happened here.
No, like we got real about stuffthat happened at college after
(19:47):
college.
And it was incredible.
And that was a huge step forwardfor me in my healing journey.
So.
This whole topic of toxicpositivity hits home for so many
reasons.
And that's a big one of them.
Jim (20:04):
Yeah, it was, like I said, so healing to be a part of that
group and just people who wereauthentic and real and sharing
some of the tough stuff thatthey were going through for me
and the space that I'm in, itwas so refreshing that there
were people there, nobody.
(20:27):
In that group said, Hey, whydon't you look at all these?
You should be grateful for allthe great things that are
happening in your life.
Or what about this?
Or what about that?
It was just, yeah, that sucks.
I'm sorry that you're goingthrough that.
There's this level ofauthenticity and realness in
(20:47):
that moment that.
Is so freeing.
If you can get to positivitythrough your junk and through
your trauma, man, you're there.
Oh yeah.
That's the goal, right?
A lot of people can convincethemselves that they're happy,
especially if they do live arelatively privileged life.
(21:10):
You might be able to lie toyourself for a long time, but
for me to be able to wadethrough all that junk and come
out on the other side of it andstill be happy.
That's the goal.
Yeah.
I'm not, I wish I could say I'mthere.
I'm not quite there.
I'm at least engaging with allthose hard feelings and those
(21:31):
past traumas.
Right.
And I think.
I'm going to have a brighterfuture because I'm refusing just
to pretend like it's not there.
Ben (21:41):
Hmm.
Full transparency moment.
You're talking about trauma anddealing with it.
And I'm over here and my brainis stuck on a song that we all
learned in Sunday school.
If you're happy and you know it,stomp your feet.
Or if you're happy and you knowit, your face will surely show
(22:01):
it if you're happy and you knowit.
Clap your hands.
Clap your hands.
Like even from a young age,we're telling kids that you got
to be happy all the time.
And I remember singing that songin church of all places.
So somehow you talking aboutprocessing trauma and being
authentic with yourself anddealing with stuff.
(22:23):
That's what came to mind for me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that's just veryreflective of my own journey
because that's the mentalitythat I've had for so many years.
Just, if you're happy and youknow it, like, God wants you to
be happy.
If you're not happy, then you'renot.
somehow doing things right orwhatever the case may be.
(22:47):
So I've had the tendency thatI've become aware of just
recently to put a silver liningon things.
And I found that I do thatbecause of my faith.
Because somehow, in my mind, Ihave convinced myself that being
a person of faith means that youdon't have big questions or that
(23:08):
you don't have big doubts orfears or frustrations.
All the things that you pushaside in order to, you know,
Grab hold of like the zealousactive faith.
I think there's a lot of toxicpositivity in doing that kind of
thing of.
Like I did in college, going outand trying to make a name for
(23:28):
myself as a youth speaker, um,seeking all of the attention and
diving into any ministryactivity that I could.
I think that's like a chiefexample of toxic positivity.
I did that because I felt likethat's what it meant to have
faith.
What I've been realizing inrecent years is that faith can
(23:52):
coexist with Doubt withbitterness, with pain.
And for so many years, I wouldhear biblical phrases like, in
all things, give thanks or begrateful for everything.
And I had the hardest time withthat, especially when.
(24:15):
Things got real difficult and Ilost so many things.
I wasn't thankful for thosethings at all, but I felt like I
was supposed to be.
And I remember going to gradschool for one semester.
I was trying to make sense of mylife after losing my job, after
losing the foster kids, afterlosing the student, I decided to
(24:40):
start postgraduate education andI was pursuing my counseling
degree.
I made it through one semester.
And it was one of the finalclasses towards the end of the
fall semester at Thanksgiving.
The professor, David Mannock,was his name.
I'll never forget.
He did like a whole night onThanksgiving.
(25:01):
But from the perspective of, ifyou think about it, the whole
Thanksgiving idea as wecelebrate it in America is kind
of toxic.
And he included a verse.
That said something along thelines of, In all things, give
thanks.
And he made a point to us.
(25:22):
That verse doesn't say, In allthings, be thankful for all of
those things.
No, it's, In spite of thosethings, we can give thanks.
And just this idea of, I don'thave to be thankful.
For the hard times in life.
Yeah was so freeing because upuntil that point I had this
(25:43):
mentality that I had to bethankful even for the hard
times.
Yeah, it's not for all thingsGive thanks.
It's in all things give thanksand there's a whole different
mentality when you Finallyrealized that and so for me that
was like a huge moment ofclarity Where I realized I'm not
(26:06):
completely broken You That I'mokay, that my faith is still
intact, that even though I'mbitter, even though in this
moment I'm frustrated.
It's okay.
I can be those things.
Yeah.
And that doesn't change myexperience.
It doesn't change my faith.
(26:27):
It just means I don't need toput a positive spin on it.
And I'm gonna be okay.
And my faith is gonna remainintact.
Even if I'm not putting a silverlining on all of these hardships
I just went through.
There was so much freedom that Ifound in that class.
If that was the only thing thatcame from that semester of grad
(26:48):
school, it was worth the 12grand I paid for that semester,
just the freedom that came.
Leaving that classroom wasintense.
It was just like, holy cow, thismakes so much sense.
Jim (27:04):
I think a lot of people think that doubt will destroy
your faith or bitterness willdestroy your faith, but it's the
opposite.
That's going to enrich yourfaith because when you just
accept it blindly, because it'ssomething that your parents
taught you or the culture thatyou live in, or it's the thing
that you're supposed to do.
And you're not allowed to everquestion anything along the way,
(27:28):
because some things just don'tmake sense.
Or when you really dissect it,why is it the way that it is
now?
I think it enriches your faithbecause now it's something
where, okay, I can have doubthere, or I can be bitter in this
area.
So I think that's what you werefeeling that like we said
before, when you ignore allthose negative feelings and
(27:49):
those trauma, you're not reallybeing your Authentic self, but
when you embrace that, like,yeah, this isn't perfect.
And you know, the song almost,if you're happy and you know
what, fake a smile.
That's right.
That's not what that's supposedto be about because.
There's real life out there andthere's real trauma.
(28:10):
So how freeing it was for you tobe able to sit in that class and
be okay with not being okay,right?
That's something that we talkabout a lot on the show.
It's okay to not be okay.
Ben (28:24):
And I was afraid that if I finally admitted that, like my
world would fall apart and thatI couldn't handle.
Not being okay.
Yeah.
But it didn't, if anything,sitting with all of those losses
and parsing through them andrealizing I don't have to be
thankful for them wasincredible.
(28:45):
And I think it's that fear of,well, if I.
Flip the off switch on the toxicpositivity, I don't know if I
can handle that darkness or thattrauma or that guilt or that
fear or whatever it is that'scausing you to be this
inauthentic version of yourselfthat's only happy.
(29:07):
It's okay to pull back thatcurtain.
Yeah.
It's scary, yeah.
But, You made it through thedifficult times that led you to
think that way.
If you made it through thosetraumas, then you can certainly
make it through pausing toreflect on them.
You didn't fall apart.
(29:28):
Your life continues even afterthat traumatic moment.
So, even though it might bepainful and be reminiscent of
some of the feelings youexperienced during that time,
you made it through the trauma.
You can certainly make itthrough processing it.
Yeah.
So, in your family Would you saythat there was toxic positivity
(29:53):
in your family system with yoursiblings or parents?
Jim (29:57):
I don't know if I would label it as toxic positivity
specifically because I thinkthat is maybe the offspring of
What my family was and that isjust society's tendency to want
to avoid hard conversations.
I think everybody was in kind ofself preservation mode.
(30:19):
And so nobody wanted to reallyaddress their feelings.
I was teased for being emotionaland being sensitive because I
wanted to deal with those issuesin the moment and I was
essentially being told, no,that's not okay.
And so I think that that'ssomething that we do as a
(30:41):
culture and it really iscyclical.
Because we tell other people notto do it.
And then we practice not sharingour emotions ourselves.
And then other people only eversee the shiny version of us that
doesn't have problems and that'shappy.
That's not stressed out andwondering how I'm going to make
(31:02):
it to the next day.
And then you're like, wow, geez,I feel like I'm the only person
that has anything wrong with me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's why we do this podcast.
Ben and I are real messed up andI have joked off air.
I feel like literally of all thestories you've heard that Jim
has been through this, that, orthe other thing.
(31:24):
I'm not.
Even a quarter of the way there.
You haven't even heard some ofthe, the worst stories and
deepest traumas that I've beenthrough, because I have to pace
myself so I don't shock thepants off of you because it's
been a rough go for a very longtime.
And I say that as me, but forBen as well,
Ben (31:45):
yeah, I am in the midst of.
One of the biggest trials I haveever faced as a dad, as a
parent, as a man, and it's uglyand There's some people who just
can't handle that Level of whatwe're walking through.
They don't want to know.
(32:05):
Yeah, they don't want to knowand it's not because they're
necessarily Toxic orintentionally being toxic.
No, it's just they don't havethe life experience or the
Understanding to be able to sitwith something like that.
Yeah So I've learned that I dohave people you included that I
(32:28):
can open up and say Life isreally hard and difficult for my
family right now, and it justsucks Yeah, and I do that with
those people And never once haveyou or anyone else said anything
like, it'll get better or, God'sgot a plan through all of this,
(32:54):
the people that I about thedifficult time that we're
walking through.
None of them have offered thoseplatitudes and that is so
refreshing.
Yeah.
So all that to say, when youlisten to our show, you're not
listening to two guys who havebeen there, done that, got the t
(33:15):
shirt, have all the answers.
You're listening to two guys.
Parse through things they'reworking through even now even
this moment these days.
Yeah that this show is Beingreleased we're walking through
it and it's tough.
You are Not alone.
Yeah.
(33:35):
And you are not listening to twoexperts or gurus who have got
this all figured out.
You're listening to two dudeswho might be a couple steps
ahead of you, and we're shoutingback that you can do this, and
Here's how we're doing it.
Maybe this will work for youtoo.
Jim (33:53):
Yeah, we're on the rapids and we just fell down the
waterfall and we know you'reright behind us.
And we're like, Hey dude, it'sgoing to hurt real bad, but
we're here for you on the otherend of it.
Ben (34:06):
What's the Disney movie emperor's new groove.
Like there's a line I knowexactly.
Sharp rocks at the bottom, sharprocks at the bottom.
Yep.
Bring it on.
Jim (34:16):
Bring it on.
Yeah, absolutely.
We are here for you on the otherend of that walk.
And you're right.
I, I know you're not ready andyou may never talk about, but
you are going through one of thetoughest situations that.
Our listeners don't even knowabout, and even if they were
connected to you, say onFacebook, the last thing that
(34:36):
you posted was enjoying a cup ofcoffee while working remotely
from a coffee house.
Ben (34:45):
Yes, I did post that.
You must not have seen my mostrecent post though.
Jim (34:49):
Don't well, actually me Ben.
Ben (34:51):
Well, it fits because I was looking at my feed and thinking
to myself, if this is.
All that I saw from me, if I wassomebody else, I would think
that this dude has the mostchill life.
He can go work remotely at acoffee shop.
(35:14):
He takes photos of all thebougie food he makes.
Like, if I were to base myperception of myself on what I
post on social media, it wouldbe so off from what it really
is.
I was thinking about that theother day, and I just posted
very much vague booking, theycall it.
(35:34):
I said something about myfamily's walking through a very
difficult time.
And instead of posting about allthe things that give me joy, I
posted things that don't give mejoy.
Like holes in my son's bedroomdoor.
Or You know, a huge branch thatfell down in the backyard that
(35:55):
we had to chop up and take careof piles of laundry Like the
things that I take pictures ofand text my wife just as a
coping mechanism I went throughthose and just posted those
because I wanted to communicateto people Life is hard.
In fact, it's Yeah.
(36:15):
As hard as it's ever been rightnow.
Yeah.
And yeah, I do post things thatgive me joy and I do that
because it helps me rememberthat not everything is, is lost,
not everything is broken, butthat creates this perception
that my life is perfect and Ireally want to combat that.
(36:39):
That's what that post was aboutmost recently.
Jim (36:41):
That's great.
I pulled that up while you'retalking.
I love that.
I was like.
On the sly calling you out fortoxic positivity and you're
like, okay, but I literally justposted so here I am looking I
love that Ben and again not tosay like if you want to post
your your coffee at a at a shopI think there can be something
cathartic about that and I hearI enjoy that side of Facebook as
(37:06):
well, but I absolutely love thatyou're on here.
Showing those negative thingsthat not everything in life is
great.
I have probably half a dozenfriends that I haven't
unfriended, but I justunfollowed them on Facebook
because all I ever see is thevacations and the nice shot from
(37:28):
the back of their, you know,million dollar house and all
this stuff that I'm like, I, Iam, while I am happy for them,
it's not helpful for me to seethat cause of the space that I'm
in.
Sure.
So I think absolutely that youcan share those positive things,
but yeah, that post that you puton there is showing sort of that
(37:50):
authentic side that life isn'tperfect and that all you have to
do is ask a few questions ofsomebody and you're going to
find out that they are much morebroken than you ever realized.
Yeah.
Ben (38:02):
Yeah.
Jim (38:03):
And they might need a hug.
Ben (38:05):
They might, but only hug them if they consent.
Jim (38:09):
Consensual hugs only.
Do you feel like there is a pushfor men in particular to put on
that happy face and to not havefeelings and not, not show any
of that?
I would
Ben (38:25):
go with the latter part of your statement, to not have any
feelings.
Jim (38:29):
Yeah.
Ben (38:30):
When I think about toxic positivity, in my case, it
almost feels like toxicpositivity is a feminine issue
or that it's something thatwomen especially deal with.
And I think that might just belike a stereotype I have to
unpack.
Do I see guys Is feelingpressure to be happy?
(38:55):
No, not really, but do I seeguys feeling pressure to not
show emotion or feeling at allbecause that's not healthy or
that's not manly.
Yeah, I see that all the timeand I think it's very similar.
So maybe the pressure isn't tobe happy or positive all the
time, but the pressure is to notfeel anything at all and to just
(39:18):
compartmentalize everything andEven though life is falling
apart at home, I'm gonna stillnail it at work or somewhere
else.
I do see that pressure a lot andI felt it myself.
Jim (39:33):
Yeah.
I was watching on Facebook, oneof the reels, and there was a
speaker who was talking aboutsome studies that she had done,
with women specifically, and itwas coming to, I think it was
something about shame or thefeeling like you can't really
show.
(39:54):
Kind of what we were talkingabout.
You're not allowed to talk aboutyour feelings or have a bad day.
After one of her seminars, a guyactually confronted her on like,
Hey, have you ever done thisstudy on men?
And she's like, well, no.
And he's like, huh?
Convenient.
Isn't it?
My.
Wife and kids would rather medie on my white horse than
(40:14):
accept that I had any sort offeelings.
And so naturally as a shamelessplug in the comments somewhere
on there to some of theresponses where I saw these guys
deeply feeling like they justnobody heard them.
And they always felt like theirfeelings and had been dismissed.
I don't do this often, but inthis particular case, I was
(40:35):
like, Hey, I think you reallymight enjoy our podcast.
And so shameless plug for realmen hug.
And.
We actually got a few newfollowers from that.
Ben (40:45):
It was awesome.
Jim (40:46):
But we also, there was a guy on there that said something
to the extent of, Oh my God,grow a penis.
And I couldn't help, but justlaugh at that, but it is such a
normal thing for me to hear thatmy whole life.
I've heard the give up your mancard or grow a penis because I
(41:09):
want to actually talk about myfeelings and I said it before
where it's cyclical.
So now you have men that arebeing told not to share their
feelings that are telling mennot to share their feelings.
Now it's a tribal thing where Ihave to make sure other people
know because I want to get likeson Facebook.
(41:31):
I don't want to get the laughs.
I want to get attention andshow, Hey, I'm not one of those
guys.
I'm a real man.
I don't show my feelings.
Yeah.
And then that becomes somethingthat gets fed into, but I'm past
it.
I've grown past that.
Now I'm like, you know, it issad to me that that person is
living in a world where theyhave so bought into that message
(41:54):
that they're not allowed to showtheir feelings, that they are
going to experience.
You still feel it.
You still have to go throughthose deep feelings, but now
you're not allowed to actuallytalk about them, share them with
anyone else.
And it's just going to be acancer inside of you.
Ben (42:12):
Yeah.
Jim (42:12):
That's sad.
Ben (42:13):
It's very sad.
As you were talking about that,I was just thinking about my own
upbringing and this is nothingagainst my parents because their
parents probably struggled withthis too, but there's just like
this deep sense of life cannotbe anything other than okay,
(42:37):
because if it is, we can'thandle it.
Growing up our house was quietlike quiet because we didn't
ever rock the boat, it didn'tfeel normal or it didn't feel
possible to be anything otherthan quiet.
(42:58):
And so we would have small talk,but we never like fought or got
like super into stuff.
And now being in my own familywith my kids, quiet is like the
last thing We have in our houseand it's because we are
(43:20):
committed to the fact that wecan be okay with not being okay
and that there's space in thishouse to have big emotions and
to feel things and to You Youknow, to give room for that.
Jim (43:35):
Yeah.
Ben (43:36):
And so my growing up years, I learned to just keep my mouth
shut and buckle down and make itthrough the day.
And.
Yeah, that all kind of fellapart once I was out on my own.
And so now home is a place whereit's okay to not be okay.
And I love that about my family.
Jim (43:57):
Yeah.
Oh, I just love that you'vecreated that environment that
it's okay to not be okay.
Ben (44:05):
My daughter.
Has her own way of handlingwhat's going on in our family
and for whatever reason shechooses to rebel by breaking
dress code every day at schooland if I were to pull that at
her age, at my school, it wouldjust be a matter of my parents
(44:26):
correctively telling me, youcan't wear that to school.
That would be the end of it.
But kudos to my wife, she seesbeyond that.
My wife said, there's gotta besomething.
More than just, wanting to breakthe dress code.
What's going on behind that.
And I love that about my wife,that she's able to see that
(44:47):
because me, all I could see wasthe dress code violations.
And I was getting super annoyed.
Like seriously, this is thethird day in the row that you've
broken dress code.
You know, you can't do that.
That's just my mentality fromgrowing up in a quiet household
where you don't rock the boat,you follow all the rules.
(45:08):
But in this instance, my wifewas able to see beyond it.
Yeah.
And created a space where mydaughter was able to tell my
wife.
I'm doing this because I feelout of control because things
are so chaotic with our familyand makes complete sense.
Jim (45:27):
Yeah.
We said in an earlier episode,it's easy to be a bad dad.
Oh yeah.
It's tough to be a good one.
Yes, it is.
And you are putting in the hardwork that your kids can come to
you and talk about those things.
That's huge.
I love that my kids can come tome and talk about their bad
(45:47):
days.
Ben (45:48):
Yeah.
And not feel like they have toput a silver lining on it.
Jim (45:52):
Yeah.
I had a bad day.
I just talked to my youngestabout that.
How was your day?
It was bad.
Interesting.
He even put a boundary on it.
I said, how was your day?
He says, it's bad.
And then he said, ask mombecause he had already shared
and he had so much emotion.
So I went and talked to Melissaabout it, my wife, and I just
(46:17):
came back to him and I said, butI'm really sorry that you had a
bad day.
I didn't ask him any morefollowup questions.
I just let him be in that space.
And he came to me later and wetalked about it then.
And if I had chosen the bad dadroad, Up to that point, my kid
(46:38):
would not have shared that hewould have come home with a bad
attitude, and then I would havebeen reactive to him and
punished him for being in a badmood and not following the rules
that I had set out for them, andthen he would have learned next
time I need to do a better jobhiding my feelings.
Because then I get to see dad'swrath and I create a system and
(47:01):
I create a child that somedaygrows up to tell a podcaster to
grow a penis because they'retalking about their feelings.
Right.
That's how it happens.
Yeah,
Ben (47:12):
it's cyclical, very much so.
It
Jim (47:14):
really absolutely is.
Ben (47:16):
That's the circle of life.
Yeah.
Why do I keep bringing up Disneyreferences?
Jim (47:22):
I do think that it's something that women have to
deal with for sure too, but Ithink as a guy our whole life we
are told that feelings are a badthing and that we're just
supposed to man up.
Now, I think there's sort ofthis cultural shift where we're
trying to push more for, Iguess, the other direction, but
(47:46):
there's still this whole hugecultural momentum on the other
side that's telling you to bemanly.
And here we are caught in themiddle of it, which is why.
We have this podcast.
It's sort of that we're stuck inthe middle of this cultural
movement that we're being toldboth to not feel and to deeply
(48:06):
feel It's impossible.
No matter what you do, somebodyisn't going to like you for who
you are, right?
Because you're not what theywant you to be or what you, they
expect you to be.
As we get towards the end of theshow, something I wanted to hit
on as well is that I knowsometimes I can focus too much
(48:28):
on that negativity.
So just like you can err on theside of too much optimism and
negating the Negative feelingsand ignoring that and other
people, you definitely can drivethe other direction to where you
only ever see the negative,you're constantly bitter and you
allow those negative things inyour life to just consume you.
(48:51):
So that's something that youdefinitely have to balance.
I'm not saying you should benegative all the time and.
As we alluded to before,sometimes you just give the hug
because it's easier than tellingsomebody, you know, I really
don't want to hug.
I think sometimes sayingsomething that's just in the
(49:11):
moment, social, you don't alwayshave to be the most authentic
person and go deep and you kindof have to know who it's okay to
do that around as well.
So we're all superficialsometimes.
And that's okay.
I think that's even good.
It's a boundary where you'resaying, I don't want this person
to know that I'm falling apartbecause I don't know who they
(49:33):
are and I don't trust them tohandle my feelings and emotions
with care.
But again, you don't want to gothe opposite direction where you
just hate everything andeverybody, everything is
terrible and it's never going tobe better.
Then you probably needcounseling.
Ben (49:47):
Right?
No kidding.
So.
The direction my mind goes aswe.
Conclude this episode is Aphrase that I've heard recently
and it's choose your hard.
And I think that is like one ofthose inspirational quotes that
is not toxically positive.
(50:08):
And I think it's a good way toclose out our show.
Choose your hard.
It's hard to deal with yourtrauma.
It's hard to face that, but it'salso hard to put a happy face on
and pretend things are alwaysokay.
And it's hard to always bepositive.
So choose your hard.
Do you want to deal with thetrauma and move forward?
(50:29):
Or do you want to choose thehard of maintaining that fake
happy plastic smile?
And when you look at thingslike, Weight loss or, substance
abuse addiction.
It's hard to be addicted tothings and it's hard to quit,
(50:49):
but quitting leads to so muchgood, choose your hard.
It's hard to be overweight.
I know this from experience andthere's so many health things
that come with it But it's alsohard to lose weight.
Choose your hard.
Jim (51:05):
I love that, Ben.
Choose your hard.
Ben (51:08):
There's so much freedom in that statement of choose your
hard.
There's no toxic encouragementto ignore one or the other.
Choose your hard.
Jim (51:19):
Thanks for listening to Real Men Hug, and remember, Real
Men Hug, but sometimes we cry.
Ben (51:26):
Please don't make Jim and I cry.
Rate, review, and subscribe.
Jim (51:33):
I feel like sometimes you try to one up yourself I'm going
to say, the last word, but wait,I just said the last word.
Now I'm going to say anotherlast word.
Ben (51:43):
It's constant.
I just did, but it wasn't goodenough.
Jim (51:50):
Wait, who said the last word?
No, I think it was me.
Ben (51:53):
Alright, I'm gonna say the last word.
Are you ready?
Yes.
Stop! I don't like that word.
I need a different one.
Jim (52:01):
Oh my gosh, Ben.
Turn it off.
Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Ben.
Jim (00:09):
And I'm Jim.
Ben (00:11):
And today we are here to put rose colored glasses and
shiny ribbon bows and silverlinings on all the terrible
things that have happened in ourlives.
Jim (00:23):
I am going to reach across this room and slap you.
Ben (00:25):
Bring Bring it on, Jim.
Jim (00:28):
Maybe I'll just hug you instead.
Ben (00:30):
I think.
That might be a better option.
Jim (00:33):
Probably more appropriate.
Yeah, perhaps, hmm.
Ben (00:38):
Well, in case you couldn't tell based on my.
Intro that caused Jim to want toslap me.
We will be talking about toxicpositivity on today's episode.
Jim (00:49):
I actually hadn't really heard of this.
Until I think it was just a yearor two ago and the first time I
heard it and then I read thedefinition, I was like ecstatic
because I feel like I have beena victim of toxic positivity and
I always felt like one, it washard to explain and two the
(01:10):
people who are toxicallypositive.
It's like, well, why, how couldbeing positive.
Be a bad thing.
So toxic positivity.
I'm reading this off of happierhuman.
com.
It's the excessive andinappropriate promotion of
positive thinking and happyemotions in situations where
(01:31):
such feelings would be misplacedor harmful.
It often takes the form of emptyplatitudes or forced
cheerfulness and can be damagingto both individuals and groups.
Ben (01:42):
Hmm.
I had a therapist who I firedafter about six weeks that at
the end of every session hewould extend his arms and
essentially ask for a hug.
that is toxic positivity rightthere.
His intent was not to be with mein that moment.
(02:03):
His intent was to have a cheekyfun ending to our session and
I'll be.
In brighter spirits.
Jim (02:11):
It's, it's sort of like the backslap hug kind of, yeah.
I'm doing this to make myselffeel better.
Almost right.
I'm really surprised to hear, Iguess I shouldn't be that
surprised.
Maybe I'll just say it this way.
A counselor shouldn't betouching you without consent.
Ben (02:30):
He did ask, but again, it was one of those situations
where it would be more awkwardif I said no.
And that may just be an exampleof a poor boundary I had at that
time.
Jim (02:43):
I think it depends on intent for sure.
A hug in and of itself should bea good thing.
But if it's, especially if it'sfrom somebody that like you
don't want the hug from, I thinkthat's probably where it really
becomes a toxic thing.
Right?
Ben (03:00):
Definitely.
what do you do if somebodyoffers a hug, but you're really
not interested?
It's almost more awkward to nothug them in that moment.
Jim (03:11):
I think.
When somebody really wants tohug you for the most part, I
will let them just because Iknow that they need it.
It's pretty rare for me, butagain, I have a pretty
privileged history for lack of abetter term.
I don't know if a hug has everbeen given to me in an abusive
way or anything like that.
(03:31):
And so for me, it's pretty easyto be like, well, this person
really wants a hug, so that'sfine.
But I've actually never Taughtmy kids not to do that, where
literally I'll say, if you wantsomebody to hug you, then.
You can do that, but if youdon't, then just say, no, you
have autonomy to do that.
And I think we talked about thatin a previous episode where a
(03:54):
lot of times that sexual abusecomes from somebody that you're
related to, to somebody that,you know, so I don't want my
kids ever to feel like they haveto hug somebody.
And I feel like maybe that'sbackfired a little bit with my
nine year old because like, hejust never wants to be hugged.
And I can't believe like as hisdad, he doesn't.
(04:14):
Want me to hug him and, Oh, itjust drives me nuts.
Cause I want to hug him so bad.
Cause I love him.
He's my kid, but I want torespect that too.
So every once in a while I justhave to ask him really nicely,
like, Hey, please, for dad, canyou give me a hug?
It would really mean a lot.
He might come over and he'llfrown while I'm hugging him, but
(04:34):
he will.
He's given me permission.
He's let's me know.
It's not his favorite thing.
He'd rather not be doing it ifhe could, but every once in a
while, especially like if he'snot feeling well, he might more.
Snuggle up next to me.
And it's almost like he doesn'trealize that it's physical
(04:55):
touch, but otherwise, yeah, hejust kind of recoils like a cat.
Anytime I get close to him.
Ben (05:04):
I'm thinking about my own hugging experience.
I am typically not one toinitiate the hug, but I am
always grateful when somebodyoffers the hug.
So I guess it's not my innatenature to approach somebody for
a hug, but.
You were talking about your son.
It reminds me of my daughter.
She's like the opposite of that.
(05:27):
I'll be making dinner in thekitchen and very focused on the
recipe or cutting the vegetablesor seasoning the meat or making
gosh, roasted garlic.
I did that last night.
Side note, your wife would bereally proud of me for all of my
kitchen achievements.
But I'm focused on that world.
(05:48):
And then my daughter comes inand She sees her dad, and she
wants to give her dad a hug.
So she comes over, and I've got,like, a knife in my hand, or,
you know, my hand's in chicken,or whatever the case may be, and
she'll just give me a hug.
And I turn around, and it's justthe greatest thing.
Jim (06:06):
Oh my gosh, that's so sweet.
Ben (06:07):
Oh yeah.
I love hugs.
I'm reminded of a time where Iwas working with a friend on a
manual labor type project, whichthat's not my comfort zone by
any means.
I was sweaty.
I was stressed.
I don't think I could figuresomething out that I needed to
have figured out and he couldtell that I was pretty worked up
(06:31):
about it.
So he just looks over and he'slike, can I give you a hug?
And in that moment, it genuinelywas what I needed.
Yeah.
He wasn't saying, I'm going tofix all your problems by giving
you a hug and sending you onyour way.
It was his way of saying, bro, Isee you.
And.
(06:52):
You're having a hard time, and Ijust, I see you in that, and I'm
going to give you a hug, just asa way of communicating that I'm
here, that I'm present, I'm withyou.
That's a very different vibethan, let's hug because we need
to end this therapy session on agood note.
(07:13):
So that's the contrast for me.
The toxic positivity versus theYeah.
Life is sometimes just hard.
Yeah.
That's okay.
Jim (07:23):
I'm glad you bring that up too, because I think a lot of
people right away would be like,well, sure.
Sure.
You just pessimistic all thetime.
No, not at all.
There's nothing wrong with beingoptimistic.
There's nothing wrong withseeing the good in a bad
situation.
The issue with toxic positivityis someone who is truly
toxically positive doesn't wantto deal with their own feelings
(07:48):
or the feelings of others.
And so they're trying to dismissit in a way that they think is a
good thing.
Like there's that bumper stickerthat's like good vibes only.
A lot of times when I see thatit is really dismissive of
people who are going through ahard time.
So when your whole life has beengreat and perfect, good for you,
(08:10):
but for most of the rest of us,that's not been the case.
And so when.
You say good vibes only you'rebasically saying, Hey, things
are going well for me.
So I don't want to deal withyour situation.
Just look at the bright side orthere's always a silver lining
or, you know, just pray aboutit.
Ben (08:33):
Oh man.
Yes.
Jim (08:35):
Kind of that, like, you know what, it's, it's what
doesn't kill you makes youstronger.
Ben (08:41):
It's such a toxic line.
Yeah.
You said the, just pray aboutit.
Like there's this falseunderstanding among Christian
people that life should be.
Not easy, but every bad thingthat happens in your life, you
should have like a Bible answerfor it, right?
And you're not allowed to reallyfeel down or depressed about
(09:06):
something because that shows alack of faith So even in the
Christian context that we bothhave had experience with oh,
yeah There's a huge pressure tobe toxically positive like the
whole God won't give youanything more than you can bear.
There's just this Misconceptionthat runs deep within that group
(09:29):
of people that if you're goingthrough a hard time, you've got
to put a positive spin on it, nomatter what.
Because if you don't, you don'thave faith.
Jim (09:38):
God won't give you more than you can handle.
Always.
Just hit me so hard in anegative way that it is so
dismissive of that person'ssituation.
And it's not even true, right?
Like there are people wholiterally can't handle it.
I'm sitting there thinking likethat person was like a deeply
faithful person who killedthemself, or who, you know, had
(10:04):
a mental breakdown, or who Endedup getting divorced and it's
just so dismissive of theemotions and feelings.
You're saying, I'm dealing witha really hard time right now for
that person to turn around andsay, well, you know, God, God
never gives you more than youcan handle just means you're a
(10:24):
strong person.
I just want to say no, likethat's not, that's not helping
me.
You can just say, I'm reallysorry that you're going through
a tough time.
Ben (10:33):
Yes.
Yeah.
That also brings to mind aconversation we had on an
earlier episode when you weretelling me that I wasn't taking
enough credit for my parentingof kids from rough places.
Jim (10:48):
Sure.
Ben (10:49):
And I'm not.
Trying to say that you werebeing toxically positive,
because I know your intent, andI know where you were coming
from, and in that conversation,it didn't strike me that way.
Jim (10:59):
Sure.
Ben (11:00):
But you know me, you know my story, you know my
weaknesses, you know how I tendto have a lower view of myself.
than necessary and you werechallenging me on it like a
friend should.
However, when I meet people whosay things like that to me
without knowing me or withoutknowing my kids, things like,
(11:23):
that's just so incredible thatyou rescued those children from
foster care.
And it's so dismissive of Theentire experience.
Jim (11:33):
Sure.
Ben (11:33):
It's dismissive of the trauma and the pain that these
kids had to endure that led themto us.
When you look at only us and thefact that we are these hero
figures for being adoptiveparents, that's toxically
positive because you are notpaying any attention for sure.
The Children.
(11:55):
Who should not be in thissituation, but they are.
So instead of telling me, Wow,you are just an amazing person
for being a foster or adoptiveparent.
Maybe just be like, Wow, thatmust be hard to bring a child
into your family that has nocontext.
Tell me about that.
Yeah.
Like, that sounds so much moreaffirming than the toxic, You're
(12:19):
a hero.
Yeah.
Mentality that I get so oftenfrom people.
Jim (12:23):
Toxic positivity doesn't want to dive into that messy
middle.
It only wants to see thepositive things.
Yes.
It's the Facebook highlightreel, the Instagram highlight
reel, right?
Everything is polished.
You only ever show when you getthe new car or you go on the
vacation.
And it never dives into any ofthose negative things.
(12:46):
It's all about just the positivethings.
And again, there's nothing wrongwith focusing on those things,
but when you refuse to everaddress those, it's really a
shallow, insincere thing.
And sometimes it can beincredibly hurtful when you
don't meet somebody where theyare and you dismiss them with
(13:08):
language like that, where it'sjust like, you know, it's going
to be okay, or.
Why don't you smile, just smile,and it'll be better, right?
Have you ever had somebody justtell you to smile when you were
sitting there?
Like with a frown on your face.
Ben (13:24):
No, I don't think I have.
However, I have some friends onFacebook and they post pictures
of their kids and their kidsalmost never smile.
And I just get this vibe ofseriously, like the least the
kid could do is smile in afamily photo.
And I found myself annoyed.
(13:45):
And I've even posted commentslike pointing out the frown on
one of the kid's faces.
That's pretty toxic.
Positivity right there.
I'm not comfortable seeing myfriends family pictures where
their teenagers aren't smilingHmm, so yeah, I say your kids
should smile more and that's notThe answer
Jim (14:07):
right?
Yeah, that actually is anexample for sure of toxic
positivity where hey, hold on aminute You're not smiling in
this picture.
That's not okay And I thinkthat's really what we're trying
to get to for those of you whoare optimist listening to this
Again, not saying there'sanything wrong with that.
But sometimes optimism can maskAn inability to deal with
(14:30):
negative emotions, and that cancome from trauma.
You've went through such a toughsituation that you told
yourself, I'm going to bepositive in spite of my
circumstances.
And in a lot of ways that hasbeen really helpful for you
because you've been able to staypositive regardless of some
(14:51):
really horrible things thatyou've went through.
But then you're not dealing withthose tough things.
Because you're not.
Dealing with your emotions.
And I think maybe an even higherechelon level of toxic
positivity is the person who'slived the truly hashtag blessed
life where they just haven't.
(15:13):
Had to deal with hardship intheir life.
Everything has been perfect forthem and it just makes them
uncomfortable being aroundpeople who haven't had the same
level of privilege.
And so they're totally missingthat perspective that there are
people out there who can'tafford housing.
(15:34):
Right.
Or food or food that don't getto go on multiple international
trips every year, in spite ofhow hard that they are trying to
work to get there and the, thetruly highest tier toxic
positive person, they just don'twant to have to deal with the
fact that not everybody isblessed and privileged as they
(15:56):
are.
Yes.
So I have a lot more sympathyfor somebody that first version
of toxic positivity.
That's somebody who's beenthrough trauma and they're
trying their best to put on abrave face.
But that poker face that you'reputting on, you're not really
dealing with all those traumathat you have underlining and
you're hurting not onlyyourself, but the people around
(16:18):
you by always having that smile.
Yeah.
It's okay to cry.
Ben (16:23):
Oh, for sure.
For sure.
It's okay to be angry.
It's okay to feel hurt.
All of those things, they havetheir place.
On a recent episode, you and Iwere talking about revisiting
our college campus and for bothof us, there were a lot of
negative emotions associatedwith that.
And as we're talking aboutpeople dealing with their
(16:44):
traumas and the tendency to, um,smile through it and just put
their best foot forward and allthe cliches.
One thing that gets overlookedin that process is actually
going and sitting with yourtrauma and allowing yourself to
feel those things in thosemoments.
(17:05):
I was listening to a podcast,and this is dangerous because I
listened to so many of them thatI couldn't tell you what podcast
it was, but the person wastalking about trauma and how to
process trauma when you havethose thoughts that pop up in
your mind that Bring yourtraumatic experience to the
surface so often we feel thepressure to push them away.
(17:28):
That's toxic positivity Yeah,it's pushing it away and saying
I'm not gonna dwell on that.
That was yesterday Things aredifferent now for as true as
those statements may be Yourmind is needing you to slow down
and be with those thoughts.
And the more that you try topush those thoughts or memories
(17:52):
or questions or doubts or fears,the more you try to push them
away because you think it's thepositive thing to do, you're
actually taking steps backwardsin your process of healing from
trauma.
In order to truly heal fromtrauma, you need to sit with
those feelings and thosethoughts.
(18:14):
Now, if they start to consumeyou and you, are in a bad place,
well, of course, get the helpthat you need.
But I think A lot of times wejust rushed through those
feelings.
We don't pay attention to thembecause we've trained ourselves
that we just need to put ourgame face on and make it through
(18:37):
and toughen it out.
And, but in fact, that'sactually leading us farther away
from healing.
Despite the difficult memories,it was so cathartic and healing
for me to actually walk on apath that I walked many times
while I was having nervousbreakdowns or panic attacks or
(19:00):
racing thoughts or anxiety.
I walked on that path.
And I didn't feel those things.
I felt instead, support and lovefrom this group of people that
after 20 years still caresenough to get together.
And in that moment, I allowedmyself to push past the toxic
(19:23):
positivity, to allow myself toremember those things, but then
to also just be with my peoplewho, who get it, who get me, and
nobody was saying things like,Oh, well, just look at all the
good things that happened here.
No, like we got real about stuffthat happened at college after
(19:47):
college.
And it was incredible.
And that was a huge step forwardfor me in my healing journey.
So.
This whole topic of toxicpositivity hits home for so many
reasons.
And that's a big one of them.
Jim (20:04):
Yeah, it was, like I said, so healing to be a part of that
group and just people who wereauthentic and real and sharing
some of the tough stuff thatthey were going through for me
and the space that I'm in, itwas so refreshing that there
were people there, nobody.
(20:27):
In that group said, Hey, whydon't you look at all these?
You should be grateful for allthe great things that are
happening in your life.
Or what about this?
Or what about that?
It was just, yeah, that sucks.
I'm sorry that you're goingthrough that.
There's this level ofauthenticity and realness in
(20:47):
that moment that.
Is so freeing.
If you can get to positivitythrough your junk and through
your trauma, man, you're there.
Oh yeah.
That's the goal, right?
A lot of people can convincethemselves that they're happy,
especially if they do live arelatively privileged life.
(21:10):
You might be able to lie toyourself for a long time, but
for me to be able to wadethrough all that junk and come
out on the other side of it andstill be happy.
That's the goal.
Yeah.
I'm not, I wish I could say I'mthere.
I'm not quite there.
I'm at least engaging with allthose hard feelings and those
(21:31):
past traumas.
Right.
And I think.
I'm going to have a brighterfuture because I'm refusing just
to pretend like it's not there.
Ben (21:41):
Hmm.
Full transparency moment.
You're talking about trauma anddealing with it.
And I'm over here and my brainis stuck on a song that we all
learned in Sunday school.
If you're happy and you know it,stomp your feet.
Or if you're happy and you knowit, your face will surely show
(22:01):
it if you're happy and you knowit.
Clap your hands.
Clap your hands.
Like even from a young age,we're telling kids that you got
to be happy all the time.
And I remember singing that songin church of all places.
So somehow you talking aboutprocessing trauma and being
authentic with yourself anddealing with stuff.
(22:23):
That's what came to mind for me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that's just veryreflective of my own journey
because that's the mentalitythat I've had for so many years.
Just, if you're happy and youknow it, like, God wants you to
be happy.
If you're not happy, then you'renot.
somehow doing things right orwhatever the case may be.
(22:47):
So I've had the tendency thatI've become aware of just
recently to put a silver liningon things.
And I found that I do thatbecause of my faith.
Because somehow, in my mind, Ihave convinced myself that being
a person of faith means that youdon't have big questions or that
(23:08):
you don't have big doubts orfears or frustrations.
All the things that you pushaside in order to, you know,
Grab hold of like the zealousactive faith.
I think there's a lot of toxicpositivity in doing that kind of
thing of.
Like I did in college, going outand trying to make a name for
(23:28):
myself as a youth speaker, um,seeking all of the attention and
diving into any ministryactivity that I could.
I think that's like a chiefexample of toxic positivity.
I did that because I felt likethat's what it meant to have
faith.
What I've been realizing inrecent years is that faith can
(23:52):
coexist with Doubt withbitterness, with pain.
And for so many years, I wouldhear biblical phrases like, in
all things, give thanks or begrateful for everything.
And I had the hardest time withthat, especially when.
(24:15):
Things got real difficult and Ilost so many things.
I wasn't thankful for thosethings at all, but I felt like I
was supposed to be.
And I remember going to gradschool for one semester.
I was trying to make sense of mylife after losing my job, after
losing the foster kids, afterlosing the student, I decided to
(24:40):
start postgraduate education andI was pursuing my counseling
degree.
I made it through one semester.
And it was one of the finalclasses towards the end of the
fall semester at Thanksgiving.
The professor, David Mannock,was his name.
I'll never forget.
He did like a whole night onThanksgiving.
(25:01):
But from the perspective of, ifyou think about it, the whole
Thanksgiving idea as wecelebrate it in America is kind
of toxic.
And he included a verse.
That said something along thelines of, In all things, give
thanks.
And he made a point to us.
(25:22):
That verse doesn't say, In allthings, be thankful for all of
those things.
No, it's, In spite of thosethings, we can give thanks.
And just this idea of, I don'thave to be thankful.
For the hard times in life.
Yeah was so freeing because upuntil that point I had this
(25:43):
mentality that I had to bethankful even for the hard
times.
Yeah, it's not for all thingsGive thanks.
It's in all things give thanksand there's a whole different
mentality when you Finallyrealized that and so for me that
was like a huge moment ofclarity Where I realized I'm not
(26:06):
completely broken You That I'mokay, that my faith is still
intact, that even though I'mbitter, even though in this
moment I'm frustrated.
It's okay.
I can be those things.
Yeah.
And that doesn't change myexperience.
It doesn't change my faith.
(26:27):
It just means I don't need toput a positive spin on it.
And I'm gonna be okay.
And my faith is gonna remainintact.
Even if I'm not putting a silverlining on all of these hardships
I just went through.
There was so much freedom that Ifound in that class.
If that was the only thing thatcame from that semester of grad
(26:48):
school, it was worth the 12grand I paid for that semester,
just the freedom that came.
Leaving that classroom wasintense.
It was just like, holy cow, thismakes so much sense.
Jim (27:04):
I think a lot of people think that doubt will destroy
your faith or bitterness willdestroy your faith, but it's the
opposite.
That's going to enrich yourfaith because when you just
accept it blindly, because it'ssomething that your parents
taught you or the culture thatyou live in, or it's the thing
that you're supposed to do.
And you're not allowed to everquestion anything along the way,
(27:28):
because some things just don'tmake sense.
Or when you really dissect it,why is it the way that it is
now?
I think it enriches your faithbecause now it's something
where, okay, I can have doubthere, or I can be bitter in this
area.
So I think that's what you werefeeling that like we said
before, when you ignore allthose negative feelings and
(27:49):
those trauma, you're not reallybeing your Authentic self, but
when you embrace that, like,yeah, this isn't perfect.
And you know, the song almost,if you're happy and you know
what, fake a smile.
That's right.
That's not what that's supposedto be about because.
There's real life out there andthere's real trauma.
(28:10):
So how freeing it was for you tobe able to sit in that class and
be okay with not being okay,right?
That's something that we talkabout a lot on the show.
It's okay to not be okay.
Ben (28:24):
And I was afraid that if I finally admitted that, like my
world would fall apart and thatI couldn't handle.
Not being okay.
Yeah.
But it didn't, if anything,sitting with all of those losses
and parsing through them andrealizing I don't have to be
thankful for them wasincredible.
(28:45):
And I think it's that fear of,well, if I.
Flip the off switch on the toxicpositivity, I don't know if I
can handle that darkness or thattrauma or that guilt or that
fear or whatever it is that'scausing you to be this
inauthentic version of yourselfthat's only happy.
(29:07):
It's okay to pull back thatcurtain.
Yeah.
It's scary, yeah.
But, You made it through thedifficult times that led you to
think that way.
If you made it through thosetraumas, then you can certainly
make it through pausing toreflect on them.
You didn't fall apart.
(29:28):
Your life continues even afterthat traumatic moment.
So, even though it might bepainful and be reminiscent of
some of the feelings youexperienced during that time,
you made it through the trauma.
You can certainly make itthrough processing it.
Yeah.
So, in your family Would you saythat there was toxic positivity
(29:53):
in your family system with yoursiblings or parents?
Jim (29:57):
I don't know if I would label it as toxic positivity
specifically because I thinkthat is maybe the offspring of
What my family was and that isjust society's tendency to want
to avoid hard conversations.
I think everybody was in kind ofself preservation mode.
(30:19):
And so nobody wanted to reallyaddress their feelings.
I was teased for being emotionaland being sensitive because I
wanted to deal with those issuesin the moment and I was
essentially being told, no,that's not okay.
And so I think that that'ssomething that we do as a
(30:41):
culture and it really iscyclical.
Because we tell other people notto do it.
And then we practice not sharingour emotions ourselves.
And then other people only eversee the shiny version of us that
doesn't have problems and that'shappy.
That's not stressed out andwondering how I'm going to make
(31:02):
it to the next day.
And then you're like, wow, geez,I feel like I'm the only person
that has anything wrong with me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's why we do this podcast.
Ben and I are real messed up andI have joked off air.
I feel like literally of all thestories you've heard that Jim
has been through this, that, orthe other thing.
(31:24):
I'm not.
Even a quarter of the way there.
You haven't even heard some ofthe, the worst stories and
deepest traumas that I've beenthrough, because I have to pace
myself so I don't shock thepants off of you because it's
been a rough go for a very longtime.
And I say that as me, but forBen as well,
Ben (31:45):
yeah, I am in the midst of.
One of the biggest trials I haveever faced as a dad, as a
parent, as a man, and it's uglyand There's some people who just
can't handle that Level of whatwe're walking through.
They don't want to know.
(32:05):
Yeah, they don't want to knowand it's not because they're
necessarily Toxic orintentionally being toxic.
No, it's just they don't havethe life experience or the
Understanding to be able to sitwith something like that.
Yeah So I've learned that I dohave people you included that I
(32:28):
can open up and say Life isreally hard and difficult for my
family right now, and it justsucks Yeah, and I do that with
those people And never once haveyou or anyone else said anything
like, it'll get better or, God'sgot a plan through all of this,
(32:54):
the people that I about thedifficult time that we're
walking through.
None of them have offered thoseplatitudes and that is so
refreshing.
Yeah.
So all that to say, when youlisten to our show, you're not
listening to two guys who havebeen there, done that, got the t
(33:15):
shirt, have all the answers.
You're listening to two guys.
Parse through things they'reworking through even now even
this moment these days.
Yeah that this show is Beingreleased we're walking through
it and it's tough.
You are Not alone.
Yeah.
(33:35):
And you are not listening to twoexperts or gurus who have got
this all figured out.
You're listening to two dudeswho might be a couple steps
ahead of you, and we're shoutingback that you can do this, and
Here's how we're doing it.
Maybe this will work for youtoo.
Jim (33:53):
Yeah, we're on the rapids and we just fell down the
waterfall and we know you'reright behind us.
And we're like, Hey dude, it'sgoing to hurt real bad, but
we're here for you on the otherend of it.
Ben (34:06):
What's the Disney movie emperor's new groove.
Like there's a line I knowexactly.
Sharp rocks at the bottom, sharprocks at the bottom.
Yep.
Bring it on.
Jim (34:16):
Bring it on.
Yeah, absolutely.
We are here for you on the otherend of that walk.
And you're right.
I, I know you're not ready andyou may never talk about, but
you are going through one of thetoughest situations that.
Our listeners don't even knowabout, and even if they were
connected to you, say onFacebook, the last thing that
(34:36):
you posted was enjoying a cup ofcoffee while working remotely
from a coffee house.
Ben (34:45):
Yes, I did post that.
You must not have seen my mostrecent post though.
Jim (34:49):
Don't well, actually me Ben.
Ben (34:51):
Well, it fits because I was looking at my feed and thinking
to myself, if this is.
All that I saw from me, if I wassomebody else, I would think
that this dude has the mostchill life.
He can go work remotely at acoffee shop.
(35:14):
He takes photos of all thebougie food he makes.
Like, if I were to base myperception of myself on what I
post on social media, it wouldbe so off from what it really
is.
I was thinking about that theother day, and I just posted
very much vague booking, theycall it.
(35:34):
I said something about myfamily's walking through a very
difficult time.
And instead of posting about allthe things that give me joy, I
posted things that don't give mejoy.
Like holes in my son's bedroomdoor.
Or You know, a huge branch thatfell down in the backyard that
(35:55):
we had to chop up and take careof piles of laundry Like the
things that I take pictures ofand text my wife just as a
coping mechanism I went throughthose and just posted those
because I wanted to communicateto people Life is hard.
In fact, it's Yeah.
(36:15):
As hard as it's ever been rightnow.
Yeah.
And yeah, I do post things thatgive me joy and I do that
because it helps me rememberthat not everything is, is lost,
not everything is broken, butthat creates this perception
that my life is perfect and Ireally want to combat that.
(36:39):
That's what that post was aboutmost recently.
Jim (36:41):
That's great.
I pulled that up while you'retalking.
I love that.
I was like.
On the sly calling you out fortoxic positivity and you're
like, okay, but I literally justposted so here I am looking I
love that Ben and again not tosay like if you want to post
your your coffee at a at a shopI think there can be something
cathartic about that and I hearI enjoy that side of Facebook as
(37:06):
well, but I absolutely love thatyou're on here.
Showing those negative thingsthat not everything in life is
great.
I have probably half a dozenfriends that I haven't
unfriended, but I justunfollowed them on Facebook
because all I ever see is thevacations and the nice shot from
(37:28):
the back of their, you know,million dollar house and all
this stuff that I'm like, I, Iam, while I am happy for them,
it's not helpful for me to seethat cause of the space that I'm
in.
Sure.
So I think absolutely that youcan share those positive things,
but yeah, that post that you puton there is showing sort of that
(37:50):
authentic side that life isn'tperfect and that all you have to
do is ask a few questions ofsomebody and you're going to
find out that they are much morebroken than you ever realized.
Yeah.
Ben (38:02):
Yeah.
Jim (38:03):
And they might need a hug.
Ben (38:05):
They might, but only hug them if they consent.
Jim (38:09):
Consensual hugs only.
Do you feel like there is a pushfor men in particular to put on
that happy face and to not havefeelings and not, not show any
of that?
I would
Ben (38:25):
go with the latter part of your statement, to not have any
feelings.
Jim (38:29):
Yeah.
Ben (38:30):
When I think about toxic positivity, in my case, it
almost feels like toxicpositivity is a feminine issue
or that it's something thatwomen especially deal with.
And I think that might just belike a stereotype I have to
unpack.
Do I see guys Is feelingpressure to be happy?
(38:55):
No, not really, but do I seeguys feeling pressure to not
show emotion or feeling at allbecause that's not healthy or
that's not manly.
Yeah, I see that all the timeand I think it's very similar.
So maybe the pressure isn't tobe happy or positive all the
time, but the pressure is to notfeel anything at all and to just
(39:18):
compartmentalize everything andEven though life is falling
apart at home, I'm gonna stillnail it at work or somewhere
else.
I do see that pressure a lot andI felt it myself.
Jim (39:33):
Yeah.
I was watching on Facebook, oneof the reels, and there was a
speaker who was talking aboutsome studies that she had done,
with women specifically, and itwas coming to, I think it was
something about shame or thefeeling like you can't really
show.
(39:54):
Kind of what we were talkingabout.
You're not allowed to talk aboutyour feelings or have a bad day.
After one of her seminars, a guyactually confronted her on like,
Hey, have you ever done thisstudy on men?
And she's like, well, no.
And he's like, huh?
Convenient.
Isn't it?
My.
Wife and kids would rather medie on my white horse than
(40:14):
accept that I had any sort offeelings.
And so naturally as a shamelessplug in the comments somewhere
on there to some of theresponses where I saw these guys
deeply feeling like they justnobody heard them.
And they always felt like theirfeelings and had been dismissed.
I don't do this often, but inthis particular case, I was
(40:35):
like, Hey, I think you reallymight enjoy our podcast.
And so shameless plug for realmen hug.
And.
We actually got a few newfollowers from that.
Ben (40:45):
It was awesome.
Jim (40:46):
But we also, there was a guy on there that said something
to the extent of, Oh my God,grow a penis.
And I couldn't help, but justlaugh at that, but it is such a
normal thing for me to hear thatmy whole life.
I've heard the give up your mancard or grow a penis because I
(41:09):
want to actually talk about myfeelings and I said it before
where it's cyclical.
So now you have men that arebeing told not to share their
feelings that are telling mennot to share their feelings.
Now it's a tribal thing where Ihave to make sure other people
know because I want to get likeson Facebook.
(41:31):
I don't want to get the laughs.
I want to get attention andshow, Hey, I'm not one of those
guys.
I'm a real man.
I don't show my feelings.
Yeah.
And then that becomes somethingthat gets fed into, but I'm past
it.
I've grown past that.
Now I'm like, you know, it issad to me that that person is
living in a world where theyhave so bought into that message
(41:54):
that they're not allowed to showtheir feelings, that they are
going to experience.
You still feel it.
You still have to go throughthose deep feelings, but now
you're not allowed to actuallytalk about them, share them with
anyone else.
And it's just going to be acancer inside of you.
Ben (42:12):
Yeah.
Jim (42:12):
That's sad.
Ben (42:13):
It's very sad.
As you were talking about that,I was just thinking about my own
upbringing and this is nothingagainst my parents because their
parents probably struggled withthis too, but there's just like
this deep sense of life cannotbe anything other than okay,
(42:37):
because if it is, we can'thandle it.
Growing up our house was quietlike quiet because we didn't
ever rock the boat, it didn'tfeel normal or it didn't feel
possible to be anything otherthan quiet.
(42:58):
And so we would have small talk,but we never like fought or got
like super into stuff.
And now being in my own familywith my kids, quiet is like the
last thing We have in our houseand it's because we are
(43:20):
committed to the fact that wecan be okay with not being okay
and that there's space in thishouse to have big emotions and
to feel things and to You Youknow, to give room for that.
Jim (43:35):
Yeah.
Ben (43:36):
And so my growing up years, I learned to just keep my mouth
shut and buckle down and make itthrough the day.
And.
Yeah, that all kind of fellapart once I was out on my own.
And so now home is a place whereit's okay to not be okay.
And I love that about my family.
Jim (43:57):
Yeah.
Oh, I just love that you'vecreated that environment that
it's okay to not be okay.
Ben (44:05):
My daughter.
Has her own way of handlingwhat's going on in our family
and for whatever reason shechooses to rebel by breaking
dress code every day at schooland if I were to pull that at
her age, at my school, it wouldjust be a matter of my parents
(44:26):
correctively telling me, youcan't wear that to school.
That would be the end of it.
But kudos to my wife, she seesbeyond that.
My wife said, there's gotta besomething.
More than just, wanting to breakthe dress code.
What's going on behind that.
And I love that about my wife,that she's able to see that
(44:47):
because me, all I could see wasthe dress code violations.
And I was getting super annoyed.
Like seriously, this is thethird day in the row that you've
broken dress code.
You know, you can't do that.
That's just my mentality fromgrowing up in a quiet household
where you don't rock the boat,you follow all the rules.
(45:08):
But in this instance, my wifewas able to see beyond it.
Yeah.
And created a space where mydaughter was able to tell my
wife.
I'm doing this because I feelout of control because things
are so chaotic with our familyand makes complete sense.
Jim (45:27):
Yeah.
We said in an earlier episode,it's easy to be a bad dad.
Oh yeah.
It's tough to be a good one.
Yes, it is.
And you are putting in the hardwork that your kids can come to
you and talk about those things.
That's huge.
I love that my kids can come tome and talk about their bad
(45:47):
days.
Ben (45:48):
Yeah.
And not feel like they have toput a silver lining on it.
Jim (45:52):
Yeah.
I had a bad day.
I just talked to my youngestabout that.
How was your day?
It was bad.
Interesting.
He even put a boundary on it.
I said, how was your day?
He says, it's bad.
And then he said, ask mombecause he had already shared
and he had so much emotion.
So I went and talked to Melissaabout it, my wife, and I just
(46:17):
came back to him and I said, butI'm really sorry that you had a
bad day.
I didn't ask him any morefollowup questions.
I just let him be in that space.
And he came to me later and wetalked about it then.
And if I had chosen the bad dadroad, Up to that point, my kid
(46:38):
would not have shared that hewould have come home with a bad
attitude, and then I would havebeen reactive to him and
punished him for being in a badmood and not following the rules
that I had set out for them, andthen he would have learned next
time I need to do a better jobhiding my feelings.
Because then I get to see dad'swrath and I create a system and
(47:01):
I create a child that somedaygrows up to tell a podcaster to
grow a penis because they'retalking about their feelings.
Right.
That's how it happens.
Yeah,
Ben (47:12):
it's cyclical, very much so.
It
Jim (47:14):
really absolutely is.
Ben (47:16):
That's the circle of life.
Yeah.
Why do I keep bringing up Disneyreferences?
Jim (47:22):
I do think that it's something that women have to
deal with for sure too, but Ithink as a guy our whole life we
are told that feelings are a badthing and that we're just
supposed to man up.
Now, I think there's sort ofthis cultural shift where we're
trying to push more for, Iguess, the other direction, but
(47:46):
there's still this whole hugecultural momentum on the other
side that's telling you to bemanly.
And here we are caught in themiddle of it, which is why.
We have this podcast.
It's sort of that we're stuck inthe middle of this cultural
movement that we're being toldboth to not feel and to deeply
(48:06):
feel It's impossible.
No matter what you do, somebodyisn't going to like you for who
you are, right?
Because you're not what theywant you to be or what you, they
expect you to be.
As we get towards the end of theshow, something I wanted to hit
on as well is that I knowsometimes I can focus too much
(48:28):
on that negativity.
So just like you can err on theside of too much optimism and
negating the Negative feelingsand ignoring that and other
people, you definitely can drivethe other direction to where you
only ever see the negative,you're constantly bitter and you
allow those negative things inyour life to just consume you.
(48:51):
So that's something that youdefinitely have to balance.
I'm not saying you should benegative all the time and.
As we alluded to before,sometimes you just give the hug
because it's easier than tellingsomebody, you know, I really
don't want to hug.
I think sometimes sayingsomething that's just in the
(49:11):
moment, social, you don't alwayshave to be the most authentic
person and go deep and you kindof have to know who it's okay to
do that around as well.
So we're all superficialsometimes.
And that's okay.
I think that's even good.
It's a boundary where you'resaying, I don't want this person
to know that I'm falling apartbecause I don't know who they
(49:33):
are and I don't trust them tohandle my feelings and emotions
with care.
But again, you don't want to gothe opposite direction where you
just hate everything andeverybody, everything is
terrible and it's never going tobe better.
Then you probably needcounseling.
Ben (49:47):
Right?
No kidding.
So.
The direction my mind goes aswe.
Conclude this episode is Aphrase that I've heard recently
and it's choose your hard.
And I think that is like one ofthose inspirational quotes that
is not toxically positive.
(50:08):
And I think it's a good way toclose out our show.
Choose your hard.
It's hard to deal with yourtrauma.
It's hard to face that, but it'salso hard to put a happy face on
and pretend things are alwaysokay.
And it's hard to always bepositive.
So choose your hard.
Do you want to deal with thetrauma and move forward?
(50:29):
Or do you want to choose thehard of maintaining that fake
happy plastic smile?
And when you look at thingslike, Weight loss or, substance
abuse addiction.
It's hard to be addicted tothings and it's hard to quit,
(50:49):
but quitting leads to so muchgood, choose your hard.
It's hard to be overweight.
I know this from experience andthere's so many health things
that come with it But it's alsohard to lose weight.
Choose your hard.
Jim (51:05):
I love that, Ben.
Choose your hard.
Ben (51:08):
There's so much freedom in that statement of choose your
hard.
There's no toxic encouragementto ignore one or the other.
Choose your hard.
Jim (51:19):
Thanks for listening to Real Men Hug, and remember, Real
Men Hug, but sometimes we cry.
Ben (51:26):
Please don't make Jim and I cry.
Rate, review, and subscribe.
Jim (51:33):
I feel like sometimes you try to one up yourself I'm going
to say, the last word, but wait,I just said the last word.
Now I'm going to say anotherlast word.
Ben (51:43):
It's constant.
I just did, but it wasn't goodenough.
Jim (51:50):
Wait, who said the last word?
No, I think it was me.
Ben (51:53):
Alright, I'm gonna say the last word.
Are you ready?
Yes.
Stop! I don't like that word.
I need a different one.
Jim (52:01):
Oh my gosh, Ben.
Turn it off.
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