March 11, 2025 • 44 mins
Steve, a retired Air Force JAG officer, shares his extraordinary journey with us in a conversation brimming with insights and revelations. From his early fascination with politics, which led him from studying economics to embracing law, to his dual role balancing education with service in the Air Force Reserve, Steve's story is both inspiring and enlightening. He recounts his rise from an enlisted reservist to a military judge, offering a rare glimpse into the multifaceted world of military law and the pivotal moments that defined his career.
Transitioning from the military to becoming an Administrative Law Judge (ALJ) for Social Security, Steve talks about the crucial decisions that shaped his post-military life. He explains the rigorous process of adjudicating disability claims, sharing personal insights into the significance of ALJs in the Social Security system. As he unpacks the complexities of the appeal process and the essential role of ALJs in reviewing medical evidence, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the impact these judges have on people's lives.
Reflecting on his early retirement at 55, Steve candidly discusses the pressures faced in the judiciary and the importance of integrity in decision-making. He highlights the role of financial planning in his comfortable retirement, bolstered by a military pension and health benefits. Beyond career and finances, Steve's passion for poker shines through as he shares how the game enriches his life, offering both mental stimulation and a platform for deepening relationships. Join us for a compelling episode that weaves together the themes of career evolution, financial foresight, and the joy of pursuing personal passions.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Real People, real Life, where
everyday conversations lead toextraordinary insights.
We're all about digging intothe lives of regular people
who've achieved success on theirown terms.
From business andentrepreneurship to fitness,
politics, education and beyondwe cover it all.
(00:24):
This is Real People, real Life.
And now your host, ryan Sherow.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Well, Steve, thanks, man, Thanks for showing up.
So I was talking to Maricela.
Maricela and Anna have knowneach other for 25 years or
longer.
I've known you for about 18, ifyou believe it or not yeah,
About 18 years.
So what we talk about on thepodcast is what it takes to win
(00:55):
in life right, and what thatjourney looks like.
What's cool about you and whatI'm excited to talk to you about
is you've actually gotten onthe other side of the bridge
retirement, yeah, man.
So that's pretty funny.
Matter of fact, we're on acruise right now and you're
enjoying your retirement.
Let's go back to the beginningof when you were thinking about
(01:17):
a career.
What was your initial thoughtprocess?
Your education, what directionwere you thinking about going
and what direction did youfinally take?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
You know I've always been interested in politics but
I really didn't make anydeliberate choices early on.
I knew I'd go to college afterhigh school.
I joined the Air Force Reserveright after high school and then
started college.
But when I started college Ididn't know what I was going to
major in, didn't really knowwhat I wanted to do.
I was thinking about philosophyfor a major for a while.
Then I kind of settled oneconomics.
(01:51):
Even then I didn't really knowwhat I was going to do.
So after undergrad I applied tolaw school, just thinking that
would be interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Arbitrarily applying to law school.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
It's awesome.
I mean, I thought it would be agood career.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Well, I mean I thought it would be a good
career.
Well, you like politics?
Yeah, exactly, isn't a lot ofthat political science too?
In college?
Well, a lot of people who planto go into law take a lot of
political science classes.
I took some, but I didn'treally.
You know, I just ended up witheconomics as a major.
I think it was a good majoractually.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
But yeah, and then I went to law school and then I
was in the Air Force Reserve atthe time and then after law
school decided to do four yearsactive duty as an Air Force
lawyer Air Force JAG and thenfrom there just liked it and
stayed in essentially so youactually joined the Air Force
(02:41):
before you actually got your lawdegree, so you were a reservist
in the Air Force while you weregoing to school.
Yeah, in fact, I graduated fromhigh school a semester early and
I joined the Air Force whileyou were going to school.
Yeah, in fact, I graduated fromhigh school a semester early
and I joined the Air ForceReserve at age 17.
And what you do is you go tobasic training in tech school to
learn your job in the Air ForceReserve.
But then one of the reasons Idid that they gave me money for
college, so they paid me like athousand a year for undergrad,
(03:01):
and so it was a part-time jobwhile I'm going to school and it
really worked out well for me.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
So when you went, so as a reservist, you're enlisted,
correct?
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Right yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
And then you go to college, you get your four-year
degree in economics.
Do they automatically upgradeyou to officer status or how
does that?
Speaker 3 (03:20):
work.
No, no, I was still enlistedand actually I moved then from
Milwaukee to Georgia, athens,georgia, to go to school at
University of Georgia.
I switched my reserve unit fromMilwaukee the 440th they were
both C-130 units but to one atDobbins now Dobbins Air Reserve
Base outside of Atlanta.
(03:40):
So I was still enlisted duringlaw school doing my drills and
annual tours and stuff.
And then after law school iswhen I got basically a
commission as a JAG officer.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
And what I know people have seen.
I think there was a TV showcalled JAGS.
What does it stand for?
Judge Advocate General?
So Judge Advocate General, soyou're an attorney within the
military system.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Exactly yeah, a uniformed attorney.
I mean, the military also hascivilian attorneys, but you're a
uniformed attorney, an officerin the Air Force and or other
branches, and an attorney.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
And how long?
How long did you do that?
I did that for 21 years, thenas a JAG, yes, and then retired
after that.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Tell me a couple of you know.
No, let's keep the innocentinnocent.
But I mean, what are some ofthe things that you'd adjudicate
over as a JAG in the military?
Because obviously I mean, areyou going to be dealing with
things that happen only on base,off base?
Speaker 3 (04:37):
um, well, a base is like a little town, basically.
So in every base has a baselegal office and that's where
you start as kind of a juniorlawyer in the base legal office.
And so, like my first job wasclaims officer, okay, but at the
same time you know handlingclaims for and against the Air
Force, including household goodsclaims they get damaged when
people move claims against theAir Force but then also you
prosecute cases from the baselegal office, courts Marshall.
(04:59):
So you get a little bit ofcriminal experience that way.
And then as you go further andgo up in rank, there are other
different options, like you canbecome a specialist in different
areas after you've been in awhile.
Then you go to other slotswhere they specialize more.
But everyone pretty much startsoff in a base legal office and
then you kind of go from there.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
What was your most enjoyable or most challenging
part of JAG law when you wereserving for the 21 years?
Speaker 3 (05:34):
What did you enjoy adjudicating over most Late in
my career?
I was a military judge for twoyears, and so I would preside
over courts martial and that wasprobably the job I enjoyed the
most.
I also was a prosecutor for awhile, a traveling prosecutor,
where that's all I would do istravel to different bases and
act as lead prosecutor indifferent cases.
So I enjoyed that as well, butI think the military judge job
was the one I enjoyed the most.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
What would be an example of a case you'd have to
oversee?
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Most of the cases in the Air Force are not real
serious crimes.
You know you get a lot of drugcases, some theft over a certain
amount, things like that.
Unfortunately, there are somechild sex abuse cases, those
kind of things, which are reallyreally bad news.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
But it's kind of a wide range of cases but most of
them are not that serious and inthe legal system within the
military, or specifically theAir Force, is it designed
similar to a civil court?
In other words, you're accused,you have a defense attorney
representing you, there's a jury.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Right, the military justice system is very similar
to the civilian criminal justicesystem.
I mean, the rules of evidenceare almost the same.
We don't call it a jury in themilitary, it's called court
members.
But it's just like a jury.
One difference normally withjuries in the civilian system
it's got to be unanimous eitherguilty or not guilty, and if
it's not unanimous it's a hungjury.
In the military it's typicallytwo-thirds, so they vote one
(06:57):
time when they're ready to voteand if two-thirds or more say
guilty it's guilty, if not it'snot guilty.
So that's kind of a uniquething.
So you don't really have hungjuries in the military like you
do in the civilian world.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
And what kind of penalties?
So I know you had some civil ornot civil, but I'm not sure
what you call it, butnon-criminal cases.
But on the criminal cases, whatkind of penalties does the Air
Force allow?
Speaker 3 (07:29):
And is that up to the judge to issue those penalties?
The accused can pick well,accused picks either judge alone
or court members for the wholething.
So basic, you know guilty ornot guilty, as well as
sentencing, but the sentencesare pretty much similar to the
civilian world.
I mean, confinement is almostalways an option.
You can have a punitivedischarge from the service as
(07:51):
part of the sentence, which isunique to the military,
obviously but sentences, theprison for the military is Fort
Leavenworth, you may have heardof it, and so for the more
serious cases with the longersentences, that's where people
end up going is to Leavenworth.
It may have heard of it, and sofor the more serious cases with
the longer sentences, that'swhere people end up going is to
Leavenworth.
It's for all the services.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
So let's say you have an enlisted person in the Air
Force who gets accused of acriminal crime, who has a
four-year contract, let's say,with the Air Force, and the
sentence is really severebecause it was a severe crime
and they get 15 years inLeavenworth.
Are they immediately dischargedout of the Air Force and then
(08:36):
now they're a civilian inmate,or are they now under the
authority of the military forthe 15 years?
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Well, I'm trying to think you know, I should know
this and I knew this way back,when it's been a while.
The discharge is not executedimmediately because you've got
an appellate process, kind ofsimilar to the civilian world,
so the appellate process has torun its course regardless.
They do go to confinementimmediately, though there's not
some, there's really not a youknow, basically, pending appeal,
(09:04):
stay out of confinement.
So confinement startsimmediately.
But the other aspects of thesentence, including the
discharge, aren't executed untillater and I'm not sure I
believe that the discharge canbe executed while they're still
in confinement, but they'restill subject to the authority
of the military for the durationof that sentence.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
For the duration of that sentence and does the so
let's say the crime happened offbase violated local
jurisdiction law.
Who has authority in that?
Does it go through the localjurisdiction law or does it
immediately turn over to themilitary to adjudicate?
Speaker 3 (09:40):
That kind of depends.
I was stationed in Germany forfour years and you have status
of forces agreements, that kindof govern, that kind of depends.
I was stationed in Germany forfour years and you have status
of forces agreements, that kindof govern, that type of thing,
and basically in some casesthere's a preference for either
the locals or the military,depending on the type of crime.
In some cases the locals candecide whether to keep it or
give it back to the military, soit kind of varies.
In the States most bases areconcurrent jurisdictions, so
(10:04):
it's the same kind of thing.
The locals and the militarykind of coordinate who's going
to prosecute.
Theoretically both could, butit rarely happens.
But there are someinstallations, some bases that
are exclusive federaljurisdiction and if that's the
case the locals don't even haveauthority to prosecute.
If it happens on base, that is.
But if it's off base, againit's kind of a coordination
between military and civilauthorities.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
So 21 years as a JAG or as an actual JAG in the Air
Force.
How many years were youenlisted Four years prior to
that?
Seven years, basically duringundergrad and law school.
So you did 28 years in themilitary Right total yeah, Wow
Well, thank you for your service.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Appreciate that.
Yeah, well, they did pay meRight total.
Yeah, Wow Well, thank you foryour service.
Appreciate that.
Yeah, they did pay me.
Yeah, well, I had a really goodpension too.
I like it.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
So you get out Now you are a licensed attorney,
both civilly and militarily, oris it just strictly an attorney
in the military?
Well to be a.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
To be a, an attorney in the military, you've got to
be licensed in a state andhaving an active license to
practice law, and so I was aGeorgia lawyer the whole time as
well, and then, when I got out,I still had my you know member,
the Georgia State, baria statebar so when you get out, uh, how
old were you when you got out?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
I was, uh, 46.
Okay, so you still got plentyof work years ahead of you, yeah
, which we'll discuss in aminute, because you cut those
pretty short, uh, very, veryprudently.
Uh, did you have any aspirationwhen you got out to start
practicing law, uh, in the civilworld?
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Not really.
Civilian world, Not really no.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
No.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
I mean, it was a possibility, I suppose, but I
just didn't really aspire to it.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
And so what did you do Once you got out?
What was your thought processabout the next stage of your
life?
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Well, they have this thing called the GI Bill and
surprisingly it's very broad.
Who it applies to?
I mean, in a way you wouldthink it's basically money to
help people go through schoolafter the military, and it makes
sense it would apply toenlisted people or people who
don't have a degree.
But I already had a bachelor'sdegree and a law degree and yet
still the GI Bill was availableto pay for school and I've
(12:19):
always had an interest in flyingand so I thought a cool thing
to do would be to go toEmbry-Riddle University in
Daytona Beach and get afour-year degree in some kind of
aviation field and learn to flyat the same time.
So I applied, got accepted thatwas kind of the plan.
At the same time, a number ofJAGs, after they retire, apply
to be administrative law judges.
(12:40):
It's basically a civil servicejob.
Most of them are with SocialSecurity, doing disability cases
, and they would only open upthe applications for that every
so often, like once every yearor two, and it opened up about
six months before I retired.
I applied for that just to keepmy options open and there's a
testing process, interviewprocess.
(13:00):
I went through that wholeprocess and so I had the Daytona
Beach, the Embry-Riddle as apossibility.
But then a couple of monthsbefore I retired I got a phone
call.
I remember coming back from atrip to Wisconsin with our
grandkids.
I get the phone call and theysay hey, you know, we want to
offer you an administrative lawjudge position with social
security in Atlanta.
(13:22):
And so I thought about it for awhile but I figured I couldn't
turn it down.
It was very good, pay goodmoney and if I had, you know, it
would help kind of carry usover to the final retirement.
So I took that.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
So the uh.
So people that listen to thepodcast know that I fly as a
private pilot recreationally.
That would have been sotempting to me, but the four
years would have been with, Imean the GI Bill.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
So they provide you some sustenance for housing and
things like that, yeah the wayit works is they pay full,
basically tuition and books, upto the cost of a public
university in the state whereyou're going to school, and then
they also give you a housingallowance to help cover your
rent.
But there's this program calledYellow Ribbon Program where, if
the school agrees, the schoolpays half of the difference and
(14:09):
the government pays the otherhalf of the difference.
So basically you've got allyour tuition, flight time,
everything covered, plus ahousing allowance of probably
$1,000, $1,200 a month,something like that.
So it would have been basicallypaying me to go learn to fly
and have fun.
So, yeah, it would have beennice.
Do you regret it?
No, no, I mean the obviousthing to do is to take that
(14:32):
administrative law judge job forone thing, to kind of get
financially set for retirement,because if I hadn't done that,
um, things would have been alittle bit tighter going forward
, potentially.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, so social security obviously is a um.
It's something we all pay into.
Uh, it is a fantastic systemfor those that need it.
Unfortunately, it's managedterribly by our wonderful
administrators of our government, but you had a very important
(15:05):
role within it.
And explain that to the peoplelistening what a judge does in
the Social Security world andspecifically what you did.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
Okay, well, you know, know, we all know about paying
into social security.
It's withheld from our checks,our whole working career.
Um, so when you pay into socialsecurity you're buying it's
oasdi, old age survivors anddisability insurance.
So most of us think of it whenwe get to retirement age we draw
it out as a pension.
But one of the things you'redoing is you're buying
disability insurance in case youbecome disabled.
(15:40):
So every year I don't know howmany people apply probably at
least hundreds of thousands ofpeople apply for social security
disability, saying basicallythat they can't work even though
they're still of working age.
And so the initial review isit's kind of an administrative
review, it's medical peoplealong with the adjudication
people at Social Security andthey look at the record
(16:04):
basically and decide is thisperson disabled or not?
Do they qualify for benefits ornot?
So if they decide that theydon't qualify, then it's denied
and they can requestreconsideration.
That's another administrativekind of process where you know,
a different person looks at itat a different level.
They look at everything andagain decide disabled or not.
If they decide they're notdisabled, so that's initially
(16:26):
and in reconsideration, thenthey can apply for a hearing
before an administrative lawjudge, and so that's where I and
people like me would come in.
We would then get these casesPeople who had been denied
disability applied for a hearingDenied twice.
Right, exactly, and so, as anALJ, my job was to schedule
(16:47):
hearings, review all theevidence and a lot of times it's
hundreds or thousands of pagesof medical evidence and you also
look at the prior adjudications, what they found and why they
found it but review all theevidence and then hold a hearing
where the individual gets tocome with their representative
if they have one, and most ofthem do.
A lot of times it's a lawyerwho handles disability cases, so
(17:08):
they come and kind of arguetheir case, why they should
qualify for disability benefits,and then, as an ALJ for Social
Security, you've got to decidedo they or don't they qualify?
And the the ultimate questionis basically is there some job
that they could do full-timedespite their limitations from
the medical conditions?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
is the decision whether they get the disability
or not.
100 up to the alj.
Is that what's called aljadministrative law judge?
So is that?
So you sitting at the bench,you have to take the evidence,
listen to the arguments and youmake the final decision.
Exactly, yeah.
Is there an appeal processafter that?
Speaker 3 (17:46):
There is, yeah, but the appeal process after that.
When I look at the case as ajudge, I'm making a judgment
call based on the evidence theevidence, but the appeal process
after that.
If I decide someone's notdisabled and they appeal it, the
appellate process is notanother panel or appellate judge
looking independently andmaking their own judgment call.
(18:06):
The issue then is did I dosomething wrong?
That's subject to reversalessentially, and a lot of times
when they would get reversed,they kick them back for another
decision by either the same ordifferent ALJ.
So basically, at the judgelevel, that's their chance to
make their arguments, becausethe appellate process it's not
an independent review.
It's basically was there someproblem with the regulations or
(18:29):
laws that are not being followed?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
That's a big misunderstanding.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but alot of people you hear on the
media and this they'll have abig, high-profile case.
We're going to appeal.
We're going to appeal.
We're going to appeal, butyou're not appealing the
decision of the jury or thejudge per se, right you're?
you're appealing the the process, exactly is there a violation
(18:52):
of due process that may haveinfluenced the decision.
Exactly that is yeah.
Yeah, that's a bigmisunderstanding and actually it
was probably about 10 years ago.
I had met an attorney and heexplained that to me.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
He says it's a procedural appeal, not that you
just disagree with the Right andit's usually did the trial
judge commit some kind of errorthat prejudiced the trial in a
sense that it's got to be kickedback to be done again and you
got an unfair verdict.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Exactly.
So one government job toanother government job, so you
are pretty much a whole careerof working for the government.
Exactly, was it a good career?
Did you enjoy working for thegovernment?
Speaker 3 (19:38):
I mean, like any job there are pluses and minuses,
but overall I did.
I mean the Air Force was great.
I was very impressed by how theAir Force runs Generally.
I think it does a great jobpicking the right people to
promote, although I'm probablybiased because I kind of was
successful in the Air Force.
But no, I think overall it's avery fair system and the
(19:59):
military is so effective.
I mean the Air Force.
You have some politics likeanywhere, but overall it's just
really an effective organizationdoing good in the world.
Essentially.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, and you got to see at least four
administrations come through,right Four or five maybe?
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Yeah, I'm trying to think.
When I first joined, it was inthe early 80s, so I guess Reagan
had just become president.
Yeah, so Reagan Bush one,clinton Bush two and the
beginning of Obama.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
So you saw both Republicans and Democrats within
the Air Force.
Did you see major changeswhether it was Republican or
Democrat, or where you were atpretty much status quo during
that 21 years, 28 years?
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Not really big changes.
You know small changes here andthere, but overall not not
major changes.
No, I mean, depending on theadministration, they may have
different decisions on whatconflicts they get involved in
or don't, but as far as just howthe Air Force ran overall, not
really too much of a difference.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
So earlier you mentioned that you were always
interested in politics.
I think we had a some sort ofan election recently, yeah yeah,
and we've gone through aninteresting four years.
You know, definitely in ourlifetime, something we just
haven't seen between you know apandemic COVID shutting the
(21:24):
world down right in the middleof transitioning from one
president to another president.
And then there's just a lot ofuncertainty for the last four
years and a lot of decisionsthat were made I disagreed with
and apparently, after thiselection, quite a bit of America
didn't like the direction thatwe were going.
(21:46):
You had the opportunity toactually work at the RNC, the
Republican National Convention.
Tell me about that, because Iwas excited that you were able
to work it.
What was that whole process?
Speaker 3 (22:01):
You know I grew up in Milwaukee, which is where they
held the convention this year,and you know I'd always
considered myself kind ofindependent, but at this point,
based on how far left theDemocrats have gone, I mean I
can't see voting Democrat everagain, to be honest with you.
But so I thought it was kind ofcool that the convention is
being held in Milwaukee.
You know I was interested inRepublicans getting elected,
(22:23):
obviously, but since I'm retiredI have time on my hands.
I go to Milwaukee every summeranyway.
They have the best musicfestival in the world there,
summerfest, and the conventionwas just a couple of weeks after
Summerfest.
So I thought, wouldn't it be?
I knew there'd be no other wayI could get to the convention
other than volunteering somehow.
So I thought wouldn't that becool?
And I don't know about sixmonths before the convention I
found the website and there wassome kind of online application
(22:47):
form.
So I filled it out and noconnections, nothing else.
But based on that I ended upbeing selected as a professional
volunteer and I was justthinking about being any kind of
volunteer.
I was going to be there anyway.
I didn't need room and board,but so that's what happened.
It worked out pretty well forme.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
I would imagine the background checks were pretty
significant.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Yeah, I'm not sure exactly what they were, but you
had to do a Secret Servicebackground check.
So you fill out, you know theSocial Security, all that kind
of information, and obviously Ipassed.
I had security clearances inthe military so I knew I would
pass and I don't know what allthey consist of.
But it just kind of worked outand it was a really cool
experience.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Just like almost everything in the last four
years, this RNC conventionproceeded in a very tragic way
almost, but just a couple daysprior right, there was an
assassination attempt againsttrump yeah, I, I was actually um
, they have a casino inmilwaukee, potawatomi, and I was
(23:51):
.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
I think that was a weekend.
I was off that day, so I wasactually sitting playing poker
in the casino when I looked onmy phone and saw you know what
happened in pennsy and at firstit it wasn't clear whether it
was really a shooting or not.
But you know, within a fewhours we all knew what happened
and fortunately fortunately, youknow Trump survived it and it
worked out okay in the end.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
But yeah, at first when you saw it it was ambiguous
Like a lot of people did he get?
Did he get killed?
What happened?
Was it an?
Speaker 3 (24:18):
actual shooting.
Yeah, that was kind of my firstquestion.
It kind of surprised me that itwould be an actual shooting,
but it was pretty quick that wekind of got the information and
fortunately.
I mean it's tragic because Ithink one person did lose his
life and other people injured,which is terrible.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
I'll tell you in my opinion, watching the footage
and you're right, very tragicthat innocent bystander lost his
life and other people got.
I mean Trump should be dead ifhe had not just turned his head.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Oh yeah he talks about that chart, that he was
turning his head he loves thatchart.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Yeah, and you know what's sad.
I'll be honest In my opinionand I don't have a problem
saying this, it was disgustinghow many people on camera said
they wished that the bullet hithim, and they're posting this
stuff on social media the hate,the vitriol.
If, just because there's adifference of opinion, you
(25:13):
should never wish that kind oftragedy on anybody.
Uh and uh.
It's a sad state that, uh, thatwe got to politically.
I think that, though americahas uh got fed up, even the
democrats, high-rankingdemocrats, have come out and
said hey, the woke movement hashijacked the Democrat Party.
(25:34):
The JFK Democrats, as I wouldrefer to, have some great ideas
and they're just not allowed totalk about them anymore.
I think that's going to change.
The country said let's go in adifferent direction.
Did you notice?
Well, you didn't have anythingto compare, but I would imagine
they had even higher security,heightened security, uh, for the
rnc um, it was already prettytight, so I don't know that they
(25:58):
necessarily changed much.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
Um, and they, you know they do their threat
analysis and all that kind ofthing, but, um, but it was
pretty, pretty tight, securityregardless.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Um, but uh, yeah, well, well, and was it fun.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Yeah, it was really fun.
You know, when I volunteered Ihad no idea what I'd be doing.
I didn't know if I'd be insidethe convention center, but in
the end I was able to sit kindof in the upper level and watch
the speeches of, you know, thepresidential nominee and vice
presidential nominee, and it wasjust interesting.
The whole thing was veryinteresting yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
So a lot of us go through our life.
You know we have, uh, multiplejobs sometimes some people it's
very rare nowadays that someonewill be in the same job for 28
years and then segue intosomething relatively in the same
umbrella.
You know, still government,still legal.
So know you had really twomajor career jobs throughout the
(26:50):
course of your life.
You know people shoot for theseretirement ages.
I think Social Security isbasically saying 62 or something
like that, 65.
And then they have differentlevels where you get more of
your social security.
You said, hey, I'm going topunch my ticket at 55.
(27:12):
What was that feeling like?
Well it was good.
In a way, that's because you'reindependently wealthy, right
Working for the government,don't, I wish, but social
security.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
I actually started the social security job on my
46th birthday and I think yourpension vests at five years but
you don't start drawing untilage 62, unless you have.
For me, if I'd done 10 years, Icould have started drawing
something right at that point.
So my initial plan was kind ofto do 10 years and work till age
(27:45):
56.
But what happened is and thatwas kind of tentative, but
unfortunately with SocialSecurity they kind of started
taking some of the discretionaway from the judges and they
were kind of pushing to do Xnumber of cases per month, per
year, and what ends up happeningis that the judges schedule the
cases but they really can'tadequately review the evidence.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Yeah, thousands of pages.
You said earlier.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
So you, you end up, what ends up happening is they
err on the side of paying morecases.
Well, each case you pay isthree hundred thousand dollars,
is kind of what it amounts toover the course of the life of
that person receiving benefits.
And so the thing that thatreally kind of bothered me is
that, um, there was always abacklog, because there are a lot
of people applying um, but toget rid of the backlog, they
(28:30):
just kept pushing judges to domore and more cases and I, you
know, I scheduled basically thesame amount of cases the whole
time I was doing it.
But there came a time when theysaid either schedule more or
else, and I got a letter ofreprimand for not scheduled, for
refusing to schedule more casesthan I could competently do,
and at that point I just decided, I mean I, I responded to it
(28:53):
and explained why that justwasn't, you know, reasonable,
but at that point I just decidedto kind of punch out a little
earlier than I might haveotherwise left.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
And that's it, and that that's a.
I've known you, like I saidearlier, I think about 18 years.
You're a man of integrity,which is one of the things I
like about you a lot.
You speak the truth, you arerelatively educated and wise,
based on some of the things thatyou've seen, and you're a
thinker.
You're a critical thinker, Iwould assume, even though I've
(29:24):
never been in front of you as aplaintiff or an accused, but I
do know you to be extremelythorough.
What caseload would bereasonable for somebody in order
to properly adjudicatesomething fairly, considering
the amount of documentationyou've had to go through?
Speaker 3 (29:47):
I think what I would typically do is roughly 400
dispositions per year, and Ithink they were pushing to
schedule at least 50 hearings amonth, which would result in
probably at least 500 to 600dispositions per year, and most
of the judges just kind of wentalong with it.
(30:08):
When they pushed them to do more, they did more.
Some of them would just say,okay, well, if that's what you
want me to do, you know I can'tdo is throw a job, but that's
just the way it is.
And and what ends up happeningis you pay more cases because if
you're going to err on one sideor the other, you really can't.
You know, it's not fair tosomeone to not review the record
thoroughly and then just decidethey're not disabled so that
(30:28):
you pay more cases than theyshould.
Um, but I just kind of, youknow, pushed back and, um, you
know I could, I probably couldhave stayed longer and saw what
happened.
Um, I probably could have done,you know, another year and got
to the 10-year point, but atthat point I thought it was
close enough and you know I wasready to again your integrity.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
uh, you made it, made a decision based on, uh, you,
your integrity and what youthought was the right thing to
do, which is good.
You don't want to just do a job, just to do it.
So I'm sure a lot of people arelike, oh man, retire at 55.
I made the joke you'reindependently wealthy.
You're not independentlywealthy.
(31:05):
You are smart with your money,you budget and you're not
frivolous with it.
What do you tell?
So, walking into 55, knowingthat I'm going to make this
decision and I'm going to retire, what is some of the thought
processes that you go through?
Speaker 3 (31:24):
I guarantee you know the anxiety, the fear, how you,
the education you required ofyourself so that you could
actually be comfortable doingthat Well, what I would tell
anyone is I mean, for me themilitary was great and that can
be a great option for manypeople.
I mean I grew up poor, basically, and with the military if you
(31:45):
do your 20 years or more, thepension is incredible and you
start drawing it immediately.
So at age 46, I retired as acolonel from the Air Force,
started drawing my pensionimmediately and then went and
got another job to get moreincome.
And another huge thing with themilitary is you get health
insurance TRICARE.
So if you do your 20 years andretire, you have TRICARE for you
(32:05):
and your spouse for the rest ofyour life and with a lot of
people they can't retire untilat least age 65 because of the
health insurance alone.
That's when you qualify forMedicare.
So if you have to buy your ownhealth insurance you know when
you're in your 50s and 60s butnot yet eligible for Medicare
that can cost a lot of money andfor a lot of people that kind
(32:26):
of rules out the option ofretiring early.
For me I was lucky to have thetricare.
That was a huge part of it,plus the military pension.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Um plus some savings from the job, the social
security job as well, and thentight budgeting yeah, exactly,
and I'm uh, and then at 62 isthe earliest you can draw social
security.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Um, I think full retirement age, for people at
least, currently is 67, and soyou can draw at any time between
age 62 and age 70.
The longer you wait, the moreyou get, but anyone can draw at
62 who's eligible for benefits,and that's probably what I'll do
in a couple of years, and startdrawing at age 62 so you've
been basically financing yourlife based on your, your
(33:06):
pensions right, etc.
plus Plus.
In the military they havesomething called the Thrift
Savings Plan.
It's like a 401k in themilitary, so I contributed to
that while I was in the military.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Are you able to draw on that now or you have to wait?
Speaker 3 (33:17):
till 50?
No, that I am drawing on, andalso as civil service you can
also contribute to that.
So I contributed both, and so Iactually started drawing on
that right when I retired.
Normally you've got to wait, Ithink, until 60, but you can
start drawing at age 55 if youkind of space it out, so it's
not drawing a lot at the sametime.
So I started drawing that rightaway as well, every month.
(33:41):
Basically that and the militarypension, the TRICARE for the
health care and then savings.
That's pretty much it.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
I think what I'm impressed with is a lot of
people would think okay, heretires at 55, basic government
pension did a little bit of asavings account within the
government.
He hasn't started drawingsocial security yet.
Well, he must just be sittingon a rocker at home making sure
that he can put food on hisplate.
(34:08):
Well, that's just not the case,because every time I call you,
you already got another aroundthe world trip planned.
How can you maximize earlyretirement without millions of
dollars in the bank and see theworld like you're doing?
Speaker 3 (34:25):
well, we, my wife and I, doing a lot of cruises and
it kind of that's another thingthat just kind of worked out A
couple months before I retired,back in April of 2019, my
retirement was already set butwe went on an Asia cruise.
We hadn't done a cruise in awhile.
So we did a cruise fromSingapore to Hong Kong, went to
Thailand and Vietnam, and it wasgreat.
(34:47):
But, um, during that cruise,they've got casinos, as you know
, and on cruise ships and, um,my wife played the slots and she
would have enough luck that shewould keep on playing with her
winnings, and she played enoughthat they started giving us
offers for great deals oncruises.
And then and that was norwegiancruise line then we started
getting offers from carnival.
(35:07):
I'm not sure what triggeredthat.
So, um, we've been doing a lotof cruises, but getting really
good deals on them, and once thedeals dry up, we'll probably do
a lot fewer, but, um, we'vebeen.
Yeah, you were explaining itwhile we can.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Yeah, you were explaining how you know you
would get these cruises whereyou're paying a minimum, minimum
, you know, fee two or threehundred, but then they give you
onboard credit.
So essentially the cruise isfree.
You don't drink because thebiggest expense on the cruise is
drinking.
I think that the cruise packagefor this cruise, if you and
(35:43):
your cabin mate, is over $950for a seven-day cruise.
Yeah, it's unbelievable and itcan run up.
And then excursions and things.
One of the things I likecruising with you is that you
find your way around thedifferent ports without paying
for excursions and we've had ablast going on mopeds and
(36:07):
checking things out, going toobscure restaurants and getting
outside of the towns where thetourist traps are.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
Yeah, a lot of times I like to just walk around town
and just kind of see what'sgoing on.
But yeah, the excursions you'rekind of in a bubble a lot of
times, the whole thing, and youdon't necessarily see a lot.
But yeah, we've kind of learnedways to see even sometimes the
same things that the excursionsdo, but you can do them a lot
cheaper on your own usually.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Yeah, but they say the most expensive thing is a
free cruise, and it can beextremely expensive.
They've got you as a captiveaudience out in the middle of
the ocean.
But you can cruise, you can eatgreat, you can see amazing
places in the country, aroundthe world without spending a lot
(36:56):
of money.
You just have to be disciplinedand really be present and enjoy
what you're looking at withouthaving to spend the extra money
to go into the fancy restaurantsor these and then, as you
cruise, you get perks anyways.
Oh, yeah, yeah, as you build upyour status.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Yeah, I mean, we've just really been fortunate with
these cruises.
I don't want to encouragepeople to gamble, because a lot
of people you know gambling is aproblem for them or can become
a problem.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Yeah, but we don't play, we don't.
We don't play slots per se.
Actually, one of the thingsthat you and I enjoy doing is
playing poker, and we do thatquite a bit, uh.
But uh, we hardly put anythingin the slots and we were
starting to get the cruise deals.
I don't know what the algorithmis that they use.
(37:46):
I don't know if they just wantto see you show up and then they
think they can hook you in, butwe, for about a year or two, we
were getting the same kind ofdeals.
It was crazy, oh it'sridiculous.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
Yeah, it's great.
I mean thank you to Carnival inNorwegian.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Like the deal.
The typical deal is we pay $200and then you get a $200 onboard
credit, but on top of thatyou've got to pay taxes, fees,
port expenses, gratuities, whichis all fair enough, but in the
end you can do a seven-daycruise for under $1,000, which
is just unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Yeah, it's one of the cheapest ways.
I mean, that's room board, food, ports, everything that you
would want to see.
It's, in my opinion, the bestway to travel.
If you do it correctly you'renot, you know you get a go to
sleep, wake up in a differentport, see the world.
So let's talk about what youand I like to do, and that's
(38:42):
playing poker.
So I've played poker for well.
I used to play penny poker as akid, so I've played it my whole
life.
But one of the things that I'vereally enjoyed over the last 30
years is Texas Hold'em, andthere's many versions of that.
But the last time you and Iplayed poker together, your game
(39:05):
changed significantly.
On the tournament side, youbecame a very good tournament
player.
We don't get to actually play alot together, but we do talk
about it because we're ondifferent sides of the country.
Walk me through that process ofplaying a tournament to making
it to the final table andwinning, and what you figured
(39:28):
out yourself.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
I still think there's a lot of luck involved, but I
think a big part of it is havingpatience, especially early on
when the blinds are lower,because when the blinds are
lower you can be tempted to playmore hands than you should.
But if you wait for cards now,later in the tournament,
obviously when the blinds aregoing up, you know if you play
too tight you're just going toget blinded out, you know, as
(39:50):
you know.
But, um, I, I've noticed in alot of tournaments, you know I
my stack is really not changingmuch or it's going down
gradually and I'm kind offeeling bad about how things are
going.
But then, as we get later inthe tournament, if you just get
some luck here and there andplay your cards right, um, you
know, as the blinds go up, a lotof people play.
Some people play a little tooloose when the blinds go up too,
and sometimes you can win basedon other people playing looser
(40:12):
than they should.
But, um, I think it's acombination of luck and just
kind of, you know, deciding whatto do when so?
Speaker 2 (40:20):
so why poker?
Because I I know that you enjoyit as a pastime.
What is it about poker that youenjoy versus walking into a
casino?
Because these days it's hard tofind a poker room.
The height of poker mania hasfizzled out, so 99% of what you
(40:42):
see in a casino is slot machinesand table games and things like
this, and it doesn't interestyou, but poker does.
What is the difference?
Speaker 3 (40:51):
I think it's just kind of the strategy and the.
Yeah, I mean there's a lot morestrategy involved in poker and
the thing is you learn.
You're constantly learning withpoker.
I mean, even if you've beenplaying for years, thousands of
hours, you're always learning.
With cash games, I usuallyprefer to play limit just
(41:11):
because I don't want to lose mywhole stack in one hand, but
we've all had bad experiences onboth sides of that, but to me
it's just very relaxing, veryfun to play poker, although
sometimes it's not so fun if you, you know, lose too much in one
setting.
But uh yeah, I just kind ofenjoy the, the strategy and the
challenge of it yeah, it'sinteresting because it seems
(41:32):
like a very simple game.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
They say it takes about 15 minutes to learn and a
lifetime to master.
Oh yeah, the nuances of thegame are so much more than just
five cards.
Oh, absolutely.
If you look at it justrobotically, you're not going to
be a good poker player.
You do have to be good at thefundamentals.
You do have to understand theodds.
(41:54):
You do have to understand whatbeats what.
Of course, it's the basics ofit, but more importantly,
there's so much strategyinvolved with the people at the
table, the position of thebutton, tournaments, as you're
playing against the clock, ohyeah.
And there's so many differentlevels to it.
And it is fun.
We absolutely love it.
(42:15):
I taught my wife to play 25years ago and it's funny.
She'd carry a little index cardand she'd actually put it on
the table what beats what, yeah,what beats what.
So she'd have a pair, two pair,straight flush, all of these
things.
People thought it was hilariousand in short order, within a
(42:37):
couple of years of playing, shehas become a better poker player
than I am.
As far as tournament plays, shedoes fantastic, she loves it
and that's a benefit, right?
So you know, you are marriedand you like to do the same
things play poker In yoursituation.
(42:57):
You're married, you know youguys like to do cruises together
, which you know.
You see a lot of people thatthey retire the husband or the
wife they're working full-timejobs, they retire and then they
sit there and look at each otherand go who are you?
Your identity has been the last40 years doing your job and
(43:18):
they find that they have nothingin common.
So you know, success inrelationships, like I tell my
son you know, find somebody whoyou have a lot in common, marry
your best friend.
You're going to hopefully spenda lifetime and people are
living longer and longer andit's nice to have those things
in common.
But poker, I highly recommendpeople that enjoy good strategy
(43:43):
and something that willchallenge you.
Poker is a blast, it is fun,but patience is the key.
Patience and decision-makingthat's really what it comes down
to.
I think that this has been agood little conversation.
Well, thank you, I've enjoyedit as well.
Yeah, I learned a little bitmore about you.
I do appreciate being yourfriend all these years and thank
(44:04):
you for taking a little bit oftime out of your vacation to get
on the show and hopefullyeveryone will enjoy this episode
.
All right, cool, thanks.
Speaker 3 (44:14):
All right.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
Thank you, Steve.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
You've been listening to Real People, real Life.
Our passion is to have realconversations with real people
who've made it.
Real people who've made it, whodid it on their own terms.
Plus we talk about business,fitness, politics, education.
Plus we don't shy away from ourthoughts on the controversial
(44:38):
issues of the day.
So if it's happening, you'llhear it here.
We'll be back soon, but in themeantime, catch us on Twitter or
X at RPRL Podcast and onYouTube at Real People Real Life
Podcast.
Welcome to Real People, real Life, where
everyday conversations lead toextraordinary insights.
We're all about digging intothe lives of regular people
who've achieved success on theirown terms.
From business andentrepreneurship to fitness,
politics, education and beyondwe cover it all.
(00:24):
This is Real People, real Life.
And now your host, ryan Sherow.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Well, Steve, thanks, man, Thanks for showing up.
So I was talking to Maricela.
Maricela and Anna have knowneach other for 25 years or
longer.
I've known you for about 18, ifyou believe it or not yeah,
About 18 years.
So what we talk about on thepodcast is what it takes to win
(00:55):
in life right, and what thatjourney looks like.
What's cool about you and whatI'm excited to talk to you about
is you've actually gotten onthe other side of the bridge
retirement, yeah, man.
So that's pretty funny.
Matter of fact, we're on acruise right now and you're
enjoying your retirement.
Let's go back to the beginningof when you were thinking about
(01:17):
a career.
What was your initial thoughtprocess?
Your education, what directionwere you thinking about going
and what direction did youfinally take?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
You know I've always been interested in politics but
I really didn't make anydeliberate choices early on.
I knew I'd go to college afterhigh school.
I joined the Air Force Reserveright after high school and then
started college.
But when I started college Ididn't know what I was going to
major in, didn't really knowwhat I wanted to do.
I was thinking about philosophyfor a major for a while.
Then I kind of settled oneconomics.
(01:51):
Even then I didn't really knowwhat I was going to do.
So after undergrad I applied tolaw school, just thinking that
would be interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Arbitrarily applying to law school.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
It's awesome.
I mean, I thought it would be agood career.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Well, I mean I thought it would be a good
career.
Well, you like politics?
Yeah, exactly, isn't a lot ofthat political science too?
In college?
Well, a lot of people who planto go into law take a lot of
political science classes.
I took some, but I didn'treally.
You know, I just ended up witheconomics as a major.
I think it was a good majoractually.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
But yeah, and then I went to law school and then I
was in the Air Force Reserve atthe time and then after law
school decided to do four yearsactive duty as an Air Force
lawyer Air Force JAG and thenfrom there just liked it and
stayed in essentially so youactually joined the Air Force
(02:41):
before you actually got your lawdegree, so you were a reservist
in the Air Force while you weregoing to school.
Yeah, in fact, I graduated fromhigh school a semester early and
I joined the Air Force whileyou were going to school.
Yeah, in fact, I graduated fromhigh school a semester early
and I joined the Air ForceReserve at age 17.
And what you do is you go tobasic training in tech school to
learn your job in the Air ForceReserve.
But then one of the reasons Idid that they gave me money for
college, so they paid me like athousand a year for undergrad,
(03:01):
and so it was a part-time jobwhile I'm going to school and it
really worked out well for me.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
So when you went, so as a reservist, you're enlisted,
correct?
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Right yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
And then you go to college, you get your four-year
degree in economics.
Do they automatically upgradeyou to officer status or how
does that?
Speaker 3 (03:20):
work.
No, no, I was still enlistedand actually I moved then from
Milwaukee to Georgia, athens,georgia, to go to school at
University of Georgia.
I switched my reserve unit fromMilwaukee the 440th they were
both C-130 units but to one atDobbins now Dobbins Air Reserve
Base outside of Atlanta.
(03:40):
So I was still enlisted duringlaw school doing my drills and
annual tours and stuff.
And then after law school iswhen I got basically a
commission as a JAG officer.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
And what I know people have seen.
I think there was a TV showcalled JAGS.
What does it stand for?
Judge Advocate General?
So Judge Advocate General, soyou're an attorney within the
military system.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Exactly yeah, a uniformed attorney.
I mean, the military also hascivilian attorneys, but you're a
uniformed attorney, an officerin the Air Force and or other
branches, and an attorney.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
And how long?
How long did you do that?
I did that for 21 years, thenas a JAG, yes, and then retired
after that.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Tell me a couple of you know.
No, let's keep the innocentinnocent.
But I mean, what are some ofthe things that you'd adjudicate
over as a JAG in the military?
Because obviously I mean, areyou going to be dealing with
things that happen only on base,off base?
Speaker 3 (04:37):
um, well, a base is like a little town, basically.
So in every base has a baselegal office and that's where
you start as kind of a juniorlawyer in the base legal office.
And so, like my first job wasclaims officer, okay, but at the
same time you know handlingclaims for and against the Air
Force, including household goodsclaims they get damaged when
people move claims against theAir Force but then also you
prosecute cases from the baselegal office, courts Marshall.
(04:59):
So you get a little bit ofcriminal experience that way.
And then as you go further andgo up in rank, there are other
different options, like you canbecome a specialist in different
areas after you've been in awhile.
Then you go to other slotswhere they specialize more.
But everyone pretty much startsoff in a base legal office and
then you kind of go from there.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
What was your most enjoyable or most challenging
part of JAG law when you wereserving for the 21 years?
Speaker 3 (05:34):
What did you enjoy adjudicating over most Late in
my career?
I was a military judge for twoyears, and so I would preside
over courts martial and that wasprobably the job I enjoyed the
most.
I also was a prosecutor for awhile, a traveling prosecutor,
where that's all I would do istravel to different bases and
act as lead prosecutor indifferent cases.
So I enjoyed that as well, butI think the military judge job
was the one I enjoyed the most.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
What would be an example of a case you'd have to
oversee?
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Most of the cases in the Air Force are not real
serious crimes.
You know you get a lot of drugcases, some theft over a certain
amount, things like that.
Unfortunately, there are somechild sex abuse cases, those
kind of things, which are reallyreally bad news.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
But it's kind of a wide range of cases but most of
them are not that serious and inthe legal system within the
military, or specifically theAir Force, is it designed
similar to a civil court?
In other words, you're accused,you have a defense attorney
representing you, there's a jury.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Right, the military justice system is very similar
to the civilian criminal justicesystem.
I mean, the rules of evidenceare almost the same.
We don't call it a jury in themilitary, it's called court
members.
But it's just like a jury.
One difference normally withjuries in the civilian system
it's got to be unanimous eitherguilty or not guilty, and if
it's not unanimous it's a hungjury.
In the military it's typicallytwo-thirds, so they vote one
(06:57):
time when they're ready to voteand if two-thirds or more say
guilty it's guilty, if not it'snot guilty.
So that's kind of a uniquething.
So you don't really have hungjuries in the military like you
do in the civilian world.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
And what kind of penalties?
So I know you had some civil ornot civil, but I'm not sure
what you call it, butnon-criminal cases.
But on the criminal cases, whatkind of penalties does the Air
Force allow?
Speaker 3 (07:29):
And is that up to the judge to issue those penalties?
The accused can pick well,accused picks either judge alone
or court members for the wholething.
So basic, you know guilty ornot guilty, as well as
sentencing, but the sentencesare pretty much similar to the
civilian world.
I mean, confinement is almostalways an option.
You can have a punitivedischarge from the service as
(07:51):
part of the sentence, which isunique to the military,
obviously but sentences, theprison for the military is Fort
Leavenworth, you may have heardof it, and so for the more
serious cases with the longersentences, that's where people
end up going is to Leavenworth.
It may have heard of it, and sofor the more serious cases with
the longer sentences, that'swhere people end up going is to
Leavenworth.
It's for all the services.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
So let's say you have an enlisted person in the Air
Force who gets accused of acriminal crime, who has a
four-year contract, let's say,with the Air Force, and the
sentence is really severebecause it was a severe crime
and they get 15 years inLeavenworth.
Are they immediately dischargedout of the Air Force and then
(08:36):
now they're a civilian inmate,or are they now under the
authority of the military forthe 15 years?
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Well, I'm trying to think you know, I should know
this and I knew this way back,when it's been a while.
The discharge is not executedimmediately because you've got
an appellate process, kind ofsimilar to the civilian world,
so the appellate process has torun its course regardless.
They do go to confinementimmediately, though there's not
some, there's really not a youknow, basically, pending appeal,
(09:04):
stay out of confinement.
So confinement startsimmediately.
But the other aspects of thesentence, including the
discharge, aren't executed untillater and I'm not sure I
believe that the discharge canbe executed while they're still
in confinement, but they'restill subject to the authority
of the military for the durationof that sentence.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
For the duration of that sentence and does the so
let's say the crime happened offbase violated local
jurisdiction law.
Who has authority in that?
Does it go through the localjurisdiction law or does it
immediately turn over to themilitary to adjudicate?
Speaker 3 (09:40):
That kind of depends.
I was stationed in Germany forfour years and you have status
of forces agreements, that kindof govern, that kind of depends.
I was stationed in Germany forfour years and you have status
of forces agreements, that kindof govern, that type of thing,
and basically in some casesthere's a preference for either
the locals or the military,depending on the type of crime.
In some cases the locals candecide whether to keep it or
give it back to the military, soit kind of varies.
In the States most bases areconcurrent jurisdictions, so
(10:04):
it's the same kind of thing.
The locals and the militarykind of coordinate who's going
to prosecute.
Theoretically both could, butit rarely happens.
But there are someinstallations, some bases that
are exclusive federaljurisdiction and if that's the
case the locals don't even haveauthority to prosecute.
If it happens on base, that is.
But if it's off base, againit's kind of a coordination
between military and civilauthorities.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
So 21 years as a JAG or as an actual JAG in the Air
Force.
How many years were youenlisted Four years prior to
that?
Seven years, basically duringundergrad and law school.
So you did 28 years in themilitary Right total yeah, Wow
Well, thank you for your service.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Appreciate that.
Yeah, well, they did pay meRight total.
Yeah, Wow Well, thank you foryour service.
Appreciate that.
Yeah, they did pay me.
Yeah, well, I had a really goodpension too.
I like it.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
So you get out Now you are a licensed attorney,
both civilly and militarily, oris it just strictly an attorney
in the military?
Well to be a.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
To be a, an attorney in the military, you've got to
be licensed in a state andhaving an active license to
practice law, and so I was aGeorgia lawyer the whole time as
well, and then, when I got out,I still had my you know member,
the Georgia State, baria statebar so when you get out, uh, how
old were you when you got out?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
I was, uh, 46.
Okay, so you still got plentyof work years ahead of you, yeah
, which we'll discuss in aminute, because you cut those
pretty short, uh, very, veryprudently.
Uh, did you have any aspirationwhen you got out to start
practicing law, uh, in the civilworld?
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Not really.
Civilian world, Not really no.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
No.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
I mean, it was a possibility, I suppose, but I
just didn't really aspire to it.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
And so what did you do Once you got out?
What was your thought processabout the next stage of your
life?
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Well, they have this thing called the GI Bill and
surprisingly it's very broad.
Who it applies to?
I mean, in a way you wouldthink it's basically money to
help people go through schoolafter the military, and it makes
sense it would apply toenlisted people or people who
don't have a degree.
But I already had a bachelor'sdegree and a law degree and yet
still the GI Bill was availableto pay for school and I've
(12:19):
always had an interest in flyingand so I thought a cool thing
to do would be to go toEmbry-Riddle University in
Daytona Beach and get afour-year degree in some kind of
aviation field and learn to flyat the same time.
So I applied, got accepted thatwas kind of the plan.
At the same time, a number ofJAGs, after they retire, apply
to be administrative law judges.
(12:40):
It's basically a civil servicejob.
Most of them are with SocialSecurity, doing disability cases
, and they would only open upthe applications for that every
so often, like once every yearor two, and it opened up about
six months before I retired.
I applied for that just to keepmy options open and there's a
testing process, interviewprocess.
(13:00):
I went through that wholeprocess and so I had the Daytona
Beach, the Embry-Riddle as apossibility.
But then a couple of monthsbefore I retired I got a phone
call.
I remember coming back from atrip to Wisconsin with our
grandkids.
I get the phone call and theysay hey, you know, we want to
offer you an administrative lawjudge position with social
security in Atlanta.
(13:22):
And so I thought about it for awhile but I figured I couldn't
turn it down.
It was very good, pay goodmoney and if I had, you know, it
would help kind of carry usover to the final retirement.
So I took that.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
So the uh.
So people that listen to thepodcast know that I fly as a
private pilot recreationally.
That would have been sotempting to me, but the four
years would have been with, Imean the GI Bill.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
So they provide you some sustenance for housing and
things like that, yeah the wayit works is they pay full,
basically tuition and books, upto the cost of a public
university in the state whereyou're going to school, and then
they also give you a housingallowance to help cover your
rent.
But there's this program calledYellow Ribbon Program where, if
the school agrees, the schoolpays half of the difference and
(14:09):
the government pays the otherhalf of the difference.
So basically you've got allyour tuition, flight time,
everything covered, plus ahousing allowance of probably
$1,000, $1,200 a month,something like that.
So it would have been basicallypaying me to go learn to fly
and have fun.
So, yeah, it would have beennice.
Do you regret it?
No, no, I mean the obviousthing to do is to take that
(14:32):
administrative law judge job forone thing, to kind of get
financially set for retirement,because if I hadn't done that,
um, things would have been alittle bit tighter going forward
, potentially.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, so social security obviously is a um.
It's something we all pay into.
Uh, it is a fantastic systemfor those that need it.
Unfortunately, it's managedterribly by our wonderful
administrators of our government, but you had a very important
(15:05):
role within it.
And explain that to the peoplelistening what a judge does in
the Social Security world andspecifically what you did.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
Okay, well, you know, know, we all know about paying
into social security.
It's withheld from our checks,our whole working career.
Um, so when you pay into socialsecurity you're buying it's
oasdi, old age survivors anddisability insurance.
So most of us think of it whenwe get to retirement age we draw
it out as a pension.
But one of the things you'redoing is you're buying
disability insurance in case youbecome disabled.
(15:40):
So every year I don't know howmany people apply probably at
least hundreds of thousands ofpeople apply for social security
disability, saying basicallythat they can't work even though
they're still of working age.
And so the initial review isit's kind of an administrative
review, it's medical peoplealong with the adjudication
people at Social Security andthey look at the record
(16:04):
basically and decide is thisperson disabled or not?
Do they qualify for benefits ornot?
So if they decide that theydon't qualify, then it's denied
and they can requestreconsideration.
That's another administrativekind of process where you know,
a different person looks at itat a different level.
They look at everything andagain decide disabled or not.
If they decide they're notdisabled, so that's initially
(16:26):
and in reconsideration, thenthey can apply for a hearing
before an administrative lawjudge, and so that's where I and
people like me would come in.
We would then get these casesPeople who had been denied
disability applied for a hearingDenied twice.
Right, exactly, and so, as anALJ, my job was to schedule
(16:47):
hearings, review all theevidence and a lot of times it's
hundreds or thousands of pagesof medical evidence and you also
look at the prior adjudications, what they found and why they
found it but review all theevidence and then hold a hearing
where the individual gets tocome with their representative
if they have one, and most ofthem do.
A lot of times it's a lawyerwho handles disability cases, so
(17:08):
they come and kind of arguetheir case, why they should
qualify for disability benefits,and then, as an ALJ for Social
Security, you've got to decidedo they or don't they qualify?
And the the ultimate questionis basically is there some job
that they could do full-timedespite their limitations from
the medical conditions?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
is the decision whether they get the disability
or not.
100 up to the alj.
Is that what's called aljadministrative law judge?
So is that?
So you sitting at the bench,you have to take the evidence,
listen to the arguments and youmake the final decision.
Exactly, yeah.
Is there an appeal processafter that?
Speaker 3 (17:46):
There is, yeah, but the appeal process after that.
When I look at the case as ajudge, I'm making a judgment
call based on the evidence theevidence, but the appeal process
after that.
If I decide someone's notdisabled and they appeal it, the
appellate process is notanother panel or appellate judge
looking independently andmaking their own judgment call.
(18:06):
The issue then is did I dosomething wrong?
That's subject to reversalessentially, and a lot of times
when they would get reversed,they kick them back for another
decision by either the same ordifferent ALJ.
So basically, at the judgelevel, that's their chance to
make their arguments, becausethe appellate process it's not
an independent review.
It's basically was there someproblem with the regulations or
(18:29):
laws that are not being followed?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
That's a big misunderstanding.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but alot of people you hear on the
media and this they'll have abig, high-profile case.
We're going to appeal.
We're going to appeal.
We're going to appeal, butyou're not appealing the
decision of the jury or thejudge per se, right you're?
you're appealing the the process, exactly is there a violation
(18:52):
of due process that may haveinfluenced the decision.
Exactly that is yeah.
Yeah, that's a bigmisunderstanding and actually it
was probably about 10 years ago.
I had met an attorney and heexplained that to me.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
He says it's a procedural appeal, not that you
just disagree with the Right andit's usually did the trial
judge commit some kind of errorthat prejudiced the trial in a
sense that it's got to be kickedback to be done again and you
got an unfair verdict.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Exactly.
So one government job toanother government job, so you
are pretty much a whole careerof working for the government.
Exactly, was it a good career?
Did you enjoy working for thegovernment?
Speaker 3 (19:38):
I mean, like any job there are pluses and minuses,
but overall I did.
I mean the Air Force was great.
I was very impressed by how theAir Force runs Generally.
I think it does a great jobpicking the right people to
promote, although I'm probablybiased because I kind of was
successful in the Air Force.
But no, I think overall it's avery fair system and the
(19:59):
military is so effective.
I mean the Air Force.
You have some politics likeanywhere, but overall it's just
really an effective organizationdoing good in the world.
Essentially.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, and you got to see at least four
administrations come through,right Four or five maybe?
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Yeah, I'm trying to think.
When I first joined, it was inthe early 80s, so I guess Reagan
had just become president.
Yeah, so Reagan Bush one,clinton Bush two and the
beginning of Obama.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
So you saw both Republicans and Democrats within
the Air Force.
Did you see major changeswhether it was Republican or
Democrat, or where you were atpretty much status quo during
that 21 years, 28 years?
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Not really big changes.
You know small changes here andthere, but overall not not
major changes.
No, I mean, depending on theadministration, they may have
different decisions on whatconflicts they get involved in
or don't, but as far as just howthe Air Force ran overall, not
really too much of a difference.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
So earlier you mentioned that you were always
interested in politics.
I think we had a some sort ofan election recently, yeah yeah,
and we've gone through aninteresting four years.
You know, definitely in ourlifetime, something we just
haven't seen between you know apandemic COVID shutting the
(21:24):
world down right in the middleof transitioning from one
president to another president.
And then there's just a lot ofuncertainty for the last four
years and a lot of decisionsthat were made I disagreed with
and apparently, after thiselection, quite a bit of America
didn't like the direction thatwe were going.
(21:46):
You had the opportunity toactually work at the RNC, the
Republican National Convention.
Tell me about that, because Iwas excited that you were able
to work it.
What was that whole process?
Speaker 3 (22:01):
You know I grew up in Milwaukee, which is where they
held the convention this year,and you know I'd always
considered myself kind ofindependent, but at this point,
based on how far left theDemocrats have gone, I mean I
can't see voting Democrat everagain, to be honest with you.
But so I thought it was kind ofcool that the convention is
being held in Milwaukee.
You know I was interested inRepublicans getting elected,
(22:23):
obviously, but since I'm retiredI have time on my hands.
I go to Milwaukee every summeranyway.
They have the best musicfestival in the world there,
summerfest, and the conventionwas just a couple of weeks after
Summerfest.
So I thought, wouldn't it be?
I knew there'd be no other wayI could get to the convention
other than volunteering somehow.
So I thought wouldn't that becool?
And I don't know about sixmonths before the convention I
found the website and there wassome kind of online application
(22:47):
form.
So I filled it out and noconnections, nothing else.
But based on that I ended upbeing selected as a professional
volunteer and I was justthinking about being any kind of
volunteer.
I was going to be there anyway.
I didn't need room and board,but so that's what happened.
It worked out pretty well forme.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
I would imagine the background checks were pretty
significant.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Yeah, I'm not sure exactly what they were, but you
had to do a Secret Servicebackground check.
So you fill out, you know theSocial Security, all that kind
of information, and obviously Ipassed.
I had security clearances inthe military so I knew I would
pass and I don't know what allthey consist of.
But it just kind of worked outand it was a really cool
experience.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Just like almost everything in the last four
years, this RNC conventionproceeded in a very tragic way
almost, but just a couple daysprior right, there was an
assassination attempt againsttrump yeah, I, I was actually um
, they have a casino inmilwaukee, potawatomi, and I was
(23:51):
.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
I think that was a weekend.
I was off that day, so I wasactually sitting playing poker
in the casino when I looked onmy phone and saw you know what
happened in pennsy and at firstit it wasn't clear whether it
was really a shooting or not.
But you know, within a fewhours we all knew what happened
and fortunately fortunately, youknow Trump survived it and it
worked out okay in the end.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
But yeah, at first when you saw it it was ambiguous
Like a lot of people did he get?
Did he get killed?
What happened?
Was it an?
Speaker 3 (24:18):
actual shooting.
Yeah, that was kind of my firstquestion.
It kind of surprised me that itwould be an actual shooting,
but it was pretty quick that wekind of got the information and
fortunately.
I mean it's tragic because Ithink one person did lose his
life and other people injured,which is terrible.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
I'll tell you in my opinion, watching the footage
and you're right, very tragicthat innocent bystander lost his
life and other people got.
I mean Trump should be dead ifhe had not just turned his head.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Oh yeah he talks about that chart, that he was
turning his head he loves thatchart.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Yeah, and you know what's sad.
I'll be honest In my opinionand I don't have a problem
saying this, it was disgustinghow many people on camera said
they wished that the bullet hithim, and they're posting this
stuff on social media the hate,the vitriol.
If, just because there's adifference of opinion, you
(25:13):
should never wish that kind oftragedy on anybody.
Uh and uh.
It's a sad state that, uh, thatwe got to politically.
I think that, though americahas uh got fed up, even the
democrats, high-rankingdemocrats, have come out and
said hey, the woke movement hashijacked the Democrat Party.
(25:34):
The JFK Democrats, as I wouldrefer to, have some great ideas
and they're just not allowed totalk about them anymore.
I think that's going to change.
The country said let's go in adifferent direction.
Did you notice?
Well, you didn't have anythingto compare, but I would imagine
they had even higher security,heightened security, uh, for the
rnc um, it was already prettytight, so I don't know that they
(25:58):
necessarily changed much.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
Um, and they, you know they do their threat
analysis and all that kind ofthing, but, um, but it was
pretty, pretty tight, securityregardless.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Um, but uh, yeah, well, well, and was it fun.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Yeah, it was really fun.
You know, when I volunteered Ihad no idea what I'd be doing.
I didn't know if I'd be insidethe convention center, but in
the end I was able to sit kindof in the upper level and watch
the speeches of, you know, thepresidential nominee and vice
presidential nominee, and it wasjust interesting.
The whole thing was veryinteresting yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
So a lot of us go through our life.
You know we have, uh, multiplejobs sometimes some people it's
very rare nowadays that someonewill be in the same job for 28
years and then segue intosomething relatively in the same
umbrella.
You know, still government,still legal.
So know you had really twomajor career jobs throughout the
(26:50):
course of your life.
You know people shoot for theseretirement ages.
I think Social Security isbasically saying 62 or something
like that, 65.
And then they have differentlevels where you get more of
your social security.
You said, hey, I'm going topunch my ticket at 55.
(27:12):
What was that feeling like?
Well it was good.
In a way, that's because you'reindependently wealthy, right
Working for the government,don't, I wish, but social
security.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
I actually started the social security job on my
46th birthday and I think yourpension vests at five years but
you don't start drawing untilage 62, unless you have.
For me, if I'd done 10 years, Icould have started drawing
something right at that point.
So my initial plan was kind ofto do 10 years and work till age
(27:45):
56.
But what happened is and thatwas kind of tentative, but
unfortunately with SocialSecurity they kind of started
taking some of the discretionaway from the judges and they
were kind of pushing to do Xnumber of cases per month, per
year, and what ends up happeningis that the judges schedule the
cases but they really can'tadequately review the evidence.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Yeah, thousands of pages.
You said earlier.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
So you, you end up, what ends up happening is they
err on the side of paying morecases.
Well, each case you pay isthree hundred thousand dollars,
is kind of what it amounts toover the course of the life of
that person receiving benefits.
And so the thing that thatreally kind of bothered me is
that, um, there was always abacklog, because there are a lot
of people applying um, but toget rid of the backlog, they
(28:30):
just kept pushing judges to domore and more cases and I, you
know, I scheduled basically thesame amount of cases the whole
time I was doing it.
But there came a time when theysaid either schedule more or
else, and I got a letter ofreprimand for not scheduled, for
refusing to schedule more casesthan I could competently do,
and at that point I just decided, I mean I, I responded to it
(28:53):
and explained why that justwasn't, you know, reasonable,
but at that point I just decidedto kind of punch out a little
earlier than I might haveotherwise left.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
And that's it, and that that's a.
I've known you, like I saidearlier, I think about 18 years.
You're a man of integrity,which is one of the things I
like about you a lot.
You speak the truth, you arerelatively educated and wise,
based on some of the things thatyou've seen, and you're a
thinker.
You're a critical thinker, Iwould assume, even though I've
(29:24):
never been in front of you as aplaintiff or an accused, but I
do know you to be extremelythorough.
What caseload would bereasonable for somebody in order
to properly adjudicatesomething fairly, considering
the amount of documentationyou've had to go through?
Speaker 3 (29:47):
I think what I would typically do is roughly 400
dispositions per year, and Ithink they were pushing to
schedule at least 50 hearings amonth, which would result in
probably at least 500 to 600dispositions per year, and most
of the judges just kind of wentalong with it.
(30:08):
When they pushed them to do more, they did more.
Some of them would just say,okay, well, if that's what you
want me to do, you know I can'tdo is throw a job, but that's
just the way it is.
And and what ends up happeningis you pay more cases because if
you're going to err on one sideor the other, you really can't.
You know, it's not fair tosomeone to not review the record
thoroughly and then just decidethey're not disabled so that
(30:28):
you pay more cases than theyshould.
Um, but I just kind of, youknow, pushed back and, um, you
know I could, I probably couldhave stayed longer and saw what
happened.
Um, I probably could have done,you know, another year and got
to the 10-year point, but atthat point I thought it was
close enough and you know I wasready to again your integrity.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
uh, you made it, made a decision based on, uh, you,
your integrity and what youthought was the right thing to
do, which is good.
You don't want to just do a job, just to do it.
So I'm sure a lot of people arelike, oh man, retire at 55.
I made the joke you'reindependently wealthy.
You're not independentlywealthy.
(31:05):
You are smart with your money,you budget and you're not
frivolous with it.
What do you tell?
So, walking into 55, knowingthat I'm going to make this
decision and I'm going to retire, what is some of the thought
processes that you go through?
Speaker 3 (31:24):
I guarantee you know the anxiety, the fear, how you,
the education you required ofyourself so that you could
actually be comfortable doingthat Well, what I would tell
anyone is I mean, for me themilitary was great and that can
be a great option for manypeople.
I mean I grew up poor, basically, and with the military if you
(31:45):
do your 20 years or more, thepension is incredible and you
start drawing it immediately.
So at age 46, I retired as acolonel from the Air Force,
started drawing my pensionimmediately and then went and
got another job to get moreincome.
And another huge thing with themilitary is you get health
insurance TRICARE.
So if you do your 20 years andretire, you have TRICARE for you
(32:05):
and your spouse for the rest ofyour life and with a lot of
people they can't retire untilat least age 65 because of the
health insurance alone.
That's when you qualify forMedicare.
So if you have to buy your ownhealth insurance you know when
you're in your 50s and 60s butnot yet eligible for Medicare
that can cost a lot of money andfor a lot of people that kind
(32:26):
of rules out the option ofretiring early.
For me I was lucky to have thetricare.
That was a huge part of it,plus the military pension.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Um plus some savings from the job, the social
security job as well, and thentight budgeting yeah, exactly,
and I'm uh, and then at 62 isthe earliest you can draw social
security.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Um, I think full retirement age, for people at
least, currently is 67, and soyou can draw at any time between
age 62 and age 70.
The longer you wait, the moreyou get, but anyone can draw at
62 who's eligible for benefits,and that's probably what I'll do
in a couple of years, and startdrawing at age 62 so you've
been basically financing yourlife based on your, your
(33:06):
pensions right, etc.
plus Plus.
In the military they havesomething called the Thrift
Savings Plan.
It's like a 401k in themilitary, so I contributed to
that while I was in the military.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Are you able to draw on that now or you have to wait?
Speaker 3 (33:17):
till 50?
No, that I am drawing on, andalso as civil service you can
also contribute to that.
So I contributed both, and so Iactually started drawing on
that right when I retired.
Normally you've got to wait, Ithink, until 60, but you can
start drawing at age 55 if youkind of space it out, so it's
not drawing a lot at the sametime.
So I started drawing that rightaway as well, every month.
(33:41):
Basically that and the militarypension, the TRICARE for the
health care and then savings.
That's pretty much it.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
I think what I'm impressed with is a lot of
people would think okay, heretires at 55, basic government
pension did a little bit of asavings account within the
government.
He hasn't started drawingsocial security yet.
Well, he must just be sittingon a rocker at home making sure
that he can put food on hisplate.
(34:08):
Well, that's just not the case,because every time I call you,
you already got another aroundthe world trip planned.
How can you maximize earlyretirement without millions of
dollars in the bank and see theworld like you're doing?
Speaker 3 (34:25):
well, we, my wife and I, doing a lot of cruises and
it kind of that's another thingthat just kind of worked out A
couple months before I retired,back in April of 2019, my
retirement was already set butwe went on an Asia cruise.
We hadn't done a cruise in awhile.
So we did a cruise fromSingapore to Hong Kong, went to
Thailand and Vietnam, and it wasgreat.
(34:47):
But, um, during that cruise,they've got casinos, as you know
, and on cruise ships and, um,my wife played the slots and she
would have enough luck that shewould keep on playing with her
winnings, and she played enoughthat they started giving us
offers for great deals oncruises.
And then and that was norwegiancruise line then we started
getting offers from carnival.
(35:07):
I'm not sure what triggeredthat.
So, um, we've been doing a lotof cruises, but getting really
good deals on them, and once thedeals dry up, we'll probably do
a lot fewer, but, um, we'vebeen.
Yeah, you were explaining itwhile we can.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Yeah, you were explaining how you know you
would get these cruises whereyou're paying a minimum, minimum
, you know, fee two or threehundred, but then they give you
onboard credit.
So essentially the cruise isfree.
You don't drink because thebiggest expense on the cruise is
drinking.
I think that the cruise packagefor this cruise, if you and
(35:43):
your cabin mate, is over $950for a seven-day cruise.
Yeah, it's unbelievable and itcan run up.
And then excursions and things.
One of the things I likecruising with you is that you
find your way around thedifferent ports without paying
for excursions and we've had ablast going on mopeds and
(36:07):
checking things out, going toobscure restaurants and getting
outside of the towns where thetourist traps are.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
Yeah, a lot of times I like to just walk around town
and just kind of see what'sgoing on.
But yeah, the excursions you'rekind of in a bubble a lot of
times, the whole thing, and youdon't necessarily see a lot.
But yeah, we've kind of learnedways to see even sometimes the
same things that the excursionsdo, but you can do them a lot
cheaper on your own usually.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Yeah, but they say the most expensive thing is a
free cruise, and it can beextremely expensive.
They've got you as a captiveaudience out in the middle of
the ocean.
But you can cruise, you can eatgreat, you can see amazing
places in the country, aroundthe world without spending a lot
(36:56):
of money.
You just have to be disciplinedand really be present and enjoy
what you're looking at withouthaving to spend the extra money
to go into the fancy restaurantsor these and then, as you
cruise, you get perks anyways.
Oh, yeah, yeah, as you build upyour status.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Yeah, I mean, we've just really been fortunate with
these cruises.
I don't want to encouragepeople to gamble, because a lot
of people you know gambling is aproblem for them or can become
a problem.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Yeah, but we don't play, we don't.
We don't play slots per se.
Actually, one of the thingsthat you and I enjoy doing is
playing poker, and we do thatquite a bit, uh.
But uh, we hardly put anythingin the slots and we were
starting to get the cruise deals.
I don't know what the algorithmis that they use.
(37:46):
I don't know if they just wantto see you show up and then they
think they can hook you in, butwe, for about a year or two, we
were getting the same kind ofdeals.
It was crazy, oh it'sridiculous.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
Yeah, it's great.
I mean thank you to Carnival inNorwegian.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Like the deal.
The typical deal is we pay $200and then you get a $200 onboard
credit, but on top of thatyou've got to pay taxes, fees,
port expenses, gratuities, whichis all fair enough, but in the
end you can do a seven-daycruise for under $1,000, which
is just unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Yeah, it's one of the cheapest ways.
I mean, that's room board, food, ports, everything that you
would want to see.
It's, in my opinion, the bestway to travel.
If you do it correctly you'renot, you know you get a go to
sleep, wake up in a differentport, see the world.
So let's talk about what youand I like to do, and that's
(38:42):
playing poker.
So I've played poker for well.
I used to play penny poker as akid, so I've played it my whole
life.
But one of the things that I'vereally enjoyed over the last 30
years is Texas Hold'em, andthere's many versions of that.
But the last time you and Iplayed poker together, your game
(39:05):
changed significantly.
On the tournament side, youbecame a very good tournament
player.
We don't get to actually play alot together, but we do talk
about it because we're ondifferent sides of the country.
Walk me through that process ofplaying a tournament to making
it to the final table andwinning, and what you figured
(39:28):
out yourself.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
I still think there's a lot of luck involved, but I
think a big part of it is havingpatience, especially early on
when the blinds are lower,because when the blinds are
lower you can be tempted to playmore hands than you should.
But if you wait for cards now,later in the tournament,
obviously when the blinds aregoing up, you know if you play
too tight you're just going toget blinded out, you know, as
(39:50):
you know.
But, um, I, I've noticed in alot of tournaments, you know I
my stack is really not changingmuch or it's going down
gradually and I'm kind offeeling bad about how things are
going.
But then, as we get later inthe tournament, if you just get
some luck here and there andplay your cards right, um, you
know, as the blinds go up, a lotof people play.
Some people play a little tooloose when the blinds go up too,
and sometimes you can win basedon other people playing looser
(40:12):
than they should.
But, um, I think it's acombination of luck and just
kind of, you know, deciding whatto do when so?
Speaker 2 (40:20):
so why poker?
Because I I know that you enjoyit as a pastime.
What is it about poker that youenjoy versus walking into a
casino?
Because these days it's hard tofind a poker room.
The height of poker mania hasfizzled out, so 99% of what you
(40:42):
see in a casino is slot machinesand table games and things like
this, and it doesn't interestyou, but poker does.
What is the difference?
Speaker 3 (40:51):
I think it's just kind of the strategy and the.
Yeah, I mean there's a lot morestrategy involved in poker and
the thing is you learn.
You're constantly learning withpoker.
I mean, even if you've beenplaying for years, thousands of
hours, you're always learning.
With cash games, I usuallyprefer to play limit just
(41:11):
because I don't want to lose mywhole stack in one hand, but
we've all had bad experiences onboth sides of that, but to me
it's just very relaxing, veryfun to play poker, although
sometimes it's not so fun if you, you know, lose too much in one
setting.
But uh yeah, I just kind ofenjoy the, the strategy and the
challenge of it yeah, it'sinteresting because it seems
(41:32):
like a very simple game.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
They say it takes about 15 minutes to learn and a
lifetime to master.
Oh yeah, the nuances of thegame are so much more than just
five cards.
Oh, absolutely.
If you look at it justrobotically, you're not going to
be a good poker player.
You do have to be good at thefundamentals.
You do have to understand theodds.
(41:54):
You do have to understand whatbeats what.
Of course, it's the basics ofit, but more importantly,
there's so much strategyinvolved with the people at the
table, the position of thebutton, tournaments, as you're
playing against the clock, ohyeah.
And there's so many differentlevels to it.
And it is fun.
We absolutely love it.
(42:15):
I taught my wife to play 25years ago and it's funny.
She'd carry a little index cardand she'd actually put it on
the table what beats what, yeah,what beats what.
So she'd have a pair, two pair,straight flush, all of these
things.
People thought it was hilariousand in short order, within a
(42:37):
couple of years of playing, shehas become a better poker player
than I am.
As far as tournament plays, shedoes fantastic, she loves it
and that's a benefit, right?
So you know, you are marriedand you like to do the same
things play poker In yoursituation.
(42:57):
You're married, you know youguys like to do cruises together
, which you know.
You see a lot of people thatthey retire the husband or the
wife they're working full-timejobs, they retire and then they
sit there and look at each otherand go who are you?
Your identity has been the last40 years doing your job and
(43:18):
they find that they have nothingin common.
So you know, success inrelationships, like I tell my
son you know, find somebody whoyou have a lot in common, marry
your best friend.
You're going to hopefully spenda lifetime and people are
living longer and longer andit's nice to have those things
in common.
But poker, I highly recommendpeople that enjoy good strategy
(43:43):
and something that willchallenge you.
Poker is a blast, it is fun,but patience is the key.
Patience and decision-makingthat's really what it comes down
to.
I think that this has been agood little conversation.
Well, thank you, I've enjoyedit as well.
Yeah, I learned a little bitmore about you.
I do appreciate being yourfriend all these years and thank
(44:04):
you for taking a little bit oftime out of your vacation to get
on the show and hopefullyeveryone will enjoy this episode
.
All right, cool, thanks.
Speaker 3 (44:14):
All right.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
Thank you, Steve.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
You've been listening to Real People, real Life.
Our passion is to have realconversations with real people
who've made it.
Real people who've made it, whodid it on their own terms.
Plus we talk about business,fitness, politics, education.
Plus we don't shy away from ourthoughts on the controversial
(44:38):
issues of the day.
So if it's happening, you'llhear it here.
We'll be back soon, but in themeantime, catch us on Twitter or
X at RPRL Podcast and onYouTube at Real People Real Life
Podcast.
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