March 30, 2025 • 52 mins
In this episode of The Real Retirement Show, our special guest is Dan Haylett, a UK-based financial partner at TFP Financial Planning. Dan specializes in retirement planning that goes beyond spreadsheets, focusing on the human side of this major life transition. Dan shares his personal journey from a high-pressure career to a fulfilling role where he helps individuals over 50 navigate emotional and behavioral aspects of retirement. We discuss the evolving landscape of retirement, including challenges like redefining purpose, identity, relationships, and spending money. Dan's innovative methods, including sketches and the Humans vs. Retirement podcast, provide valuable insights into breaking outdated norms and designing a fulfilling retired life. The episode offers valuable insights for both retirees and financial planners looking to incorporate more holistic, human-focused strategies in their work.
00:00 Introduction to a Different Kind of Financial Advisor
01:02 Welcome to The Real Retirement Show
02:07 Meet Dan Haylett: Financial Planner and Podcast Host
03:47 Dan's Personal Journey and Career Shift
06:32 Holistic Approach to Financial Planning
12:43 Challenges in Retirement Spending
16:29 Reframing Money as Memories and Experiences
23:09 Dan's Confidence and Continuous Learning
26:44 Builder's House Analogy
27:30 Discovering Carl Richards
28:11 The Power of Sketching
28:40 Healthspan vs Lifespan
29:25 Go-Go, Slow-Go, No-Go Years
31:17 Impact on Business and Clients
33:33 Referrals and Client Engagement
35:42 State of the Financial Industry
39:45 Embracing Uncertainty in Financial Planning
42:59 Advising with Purpose and Identity
43:45 Advice for Advisors
44:58 Future Projects and Innovations
46:56 Humans vs Retirement Podcast
50:15 Final Thoughts and Farewell
About Dan Haylett
Our guest is someone who is passionate about challenging the outdated narratives around retirement and helping people truly thrive in their second half.
Dan Haylett, a financial planner and the Head of Growth at TFP Financial Planning in the UK. Dan specializes in financial planning, retirement planning, and life planning for individuals over 50. Beyond numbers and spreadsheets, he’s deeply invested in the human side of retirement, guiding people through the emotional and behavioral aspects of this major life transition. Dan is also the host of the podcast The Humans vs. Retirement, where he explores the psychological shifts, challenges, and opportunities that come with stepping into retirement. With a background in the asset-management industry and a mission to help 1 million people redefine their retirement experience, Dan brings a wealth of insight, experience, and inspiration to the conversation.
Resources
The Skill of Spending Money in Retirement
https://artisanal-composer-7982.kit.com/f1ce297731
Give Your Money Away With A Warm Heart, Not A Cold Hand!
https://www.humansvsretirement.com/post/give-your-money-away-with-a-warm-heart-not-a-cold-hand
Healthspan & Lifespan
https://youtu.be/HeoSDEs5e0Y?si=DHbYAewtkSdmmSHE
The 3 Phases of The Second Half of Our Lives
https://humansvsretirement.myshopify.com/products/the-3-phases-of-the-second-half-of-our-lives
Podcast | Humans vs Retirement
https://www.humansvsretirement.com/podcast
Dan Haylett | LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dan-haylett-retirement-coach/
YouTube | Humans vs Retirement
https://www.humansvsretirement.com/youtube
Real Retirement Video Podcast: Real Retirement - YouTube
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dan Haylett (00:00):
you are not leaving money on the table.
(00:02):
You are leaving memories andexperiences on the table.
reframing these subjects in a momuch more emotive way has been
the biggest game changer for me.
So forget this whole incomeplanning.
I talk about retirement memoryplanning.
So what memories do you wannacreate with your money?
Who do you wanna make them withand how can we fund them?
think about the wonderfulconcept of memory dividends that
(00:23):
I talk to a lot of people about,made famous by a number of
people.
But Bill Perkins Die with Zerobook talks about this a lot,
this kind of concept thatspending your money or memories
gives you dividends for life,right?
You recall.
What you've done with friendsand family, and it brings you
joy and happiness in later life.
(00:43):
So I think it's really importantto reframe how we start thinking
about this, and thinking abouthow we spend our money and get
it out of money language, out offinancial language, and Into
real life, and that's beenpretty transformational for
people.
When we start talking,
Yasmin Nguyen (00:59):
Welcome back to The Real Retirement Show.
My name is Yasmin.
Here with my co-host Kathleen.
Whether you're retired orthinking about retirement, we
delve into the multifacetedworld of retirement beyond the
finances.
This isn't your typicalretirement discussion.
It's a vibrant journey into whatretirement truly means in
today's world.
(01:19):
We bring you real stories fromreal retirees and experts
discussing real challenges,surprises, joys, heartaches, and
the myriad of emotions that comewith retirement.
From addressing family dynamicsto mental and physical health,
to finding purpose, we tacklethe issues that truly matter to
retirees and those thinkingabout retirement.
(01:42):
Today we're diving deep into theevolving landscape of
retirement, rethinking purpose,identity, relationship, and how
we spend our time, money, andenergy in this next stage of
life.
Our guest is someone who ispassionate about challenging the
outdated narratives aroundretirement and helping people
truly thrive in their secondhalf.
(02:04):
Joining us today is Dan Haylett,a financial partner and the head
of growth at TFP FinancialPlanning.
In the uk.
Dan specializes in financialplanning, retirement planning,
and life planning forindividuals over 50.
Beyond numbers and spreadsheets.
He's deeply invested in thehuman side of retirement,
(02:24):
guiding people through theemotional and behavioral aspects
of this major life transition.
Dan also hosts the podcasts, theHumans versus Retirement, where
he explores the psychologicalshifts, challenges and
opportunities that come withstepping into retirement.
With a background in the assetmanagement industry and a
(02:45):
mission to help 1 million peopleredefine their retirement
experience, Dan brings a wealthof insights, experience, and
inspiration to the conversation.
Get ready for a thoughtprovoking discussion about
breaking free from outdatednorms and designing a life you
truly love in retirement.
(03:05):
Let's dive in.
Dan.
Welcome to the show.
Dan Haylett (03:08):
Yasmin, it's such a pleasure to join you and I'm
thrilled to be on this side ofthe mic.
this is wonderful for me.
Yasmin Nguyen (03:15):
Oh, well, Dan, you know, it's hard to believe
that it's only been recentlythat we've met and I've really
admired your work and yourinsights, and especially your
sketches that you've sharedonline.
And I feel like even thoughwe've only known each other for
a brief amount of time, we bothlive and serve by a similar
playbook.
Dan Haylett (03:32):
Yeah, listen, that first conversation we had and
the interaction we've had onLinkedIn has been brilliant.
And yeah, we've definitely got alot in common.
and yeah, can't wait to havethis conversation and talk about
all things retirement.
Yasmin Nguyen (03:44):
Well, Dan, for those of us who haven't gotten a
chance to get to know you, wouldyou share a little bit about
your story and what led you toincorporate a more holistic
approach to your work and alsoyour life?
Dan Haylett (03:56):
I could probably spend half an hour about the
backstory.
I won't go into that.
So we, we wanna get into thejuicy stuff.
But, I think my kind of storythat led me to here was really,
I.
Quite a deep personal one where,I had, some quite significant
challenges, mental healthchallenges in my mid thirties,
which caused me to question lifequestion, what I was doing.
(04:19):
dig down into, why am I doingwhat I'm doing?
it was very, I wouldn't say itwas money driven.
I was very much shackled to ahigh earning, high pressured,
career that had little purpose,that satisfied me in very little
ways.
That was actually probably doingmore harm than good to my
family.
(04:40):
And all culminated in, in thesekind of mental health challenges
I had whi, which.
made me just reassess.
So I say to people now, Iretired at 35.
That the emotional, challenges,the things that I faced and the
things I tried to do aroundpurpose and identity and
(05:03):
relationships and time andmoney.
I carry through into the workthat I do, and I'm sure we get
onto that was something I wentthrough quite early at 35.
So I retired from corporateworld at 35 really discover, or
really tried to discover what Iwanted to do with my life.
where could I add value, wherecould I make an impact?
What would give me a real goodsense to pull back the duvet, to
(05:24):
put a smile on my face, and todo something I truly love.
And it's led me, to, to doingthis really, six, seven years
ago.
I joined TFP, brought into thebusiness as a director and
shareholder.
and really in my time at inAsset Management, I traveled the
length and breadth of the uk.
Speaking with and working withother financial advisors.
(05:47):
And throughout that kind of 10,12 year period of doing that, I,
I really molded my thought.
I never really thought I wouldbecome a financial planner,
right?
It wasn't the thing.
But, when the opportunity cameand I really sat down and
thought about what that coulddeliver to me as a person, and
of the experiences of the good,the bad, and the ugly of
financial advisory businesseshad a real clear thought process
(06:08):
about what I wanted to do andhow I wanted to do it.
And it really all molded into myown emotional journey with money
and how I then wanted to helpother people's transitions from
a full-time career that maybethey weren't necessarily in love
with, and into a different phaseof their life, one with more joy
(06:28):
and happiness.
from the get go, Yasmin, I dugdeep into kind of the emotional
and behavioral aspects of money,knowing it was much more than
spreadsheets and bar charts.
Yasmin Nguyen (06:38):
Yeah, Dan, that's been a really powerful personal
journey that's really inspiredyou to channel that outwards to
help others, and I'm.
Curious, is there a particularphilosophy that, that you follow
to introduce a morewell-rounded, balanced approach
to both the money and thenon-financial side based on just
your journey, but also thewisdom that you've gained?
Dan Haylett (07:01):
Yeah, I try not to be afraid of it.
I lead with it.
So I think what I've, what Idecided to do really early on
almost be upfront and go, Thisis what I believe I.
you may not know it yet, but Iknow money and finances is an
emotional lightning rod for allof this stuff.
You may be coming here to talkabout your pension funds or your
(07:21):
cash flow or your tax situation,but I know that's a smokescreen
for who am I, who do I want tobe?
I'm not saying it's notimportant, I just know there are
other important things.
and I really went to lead withthat.
Really early on my outwardlanguage, of the, the mission
around the podcast, the sketchesand all of that stuff, is to say
to people, this is me.
(07:44):
you know what you're gettinginto.
You know that you're not gonnabe working with a typical
financial advisor.
You know that we're gonna betalking about more than just
spreadsheets.
In fact, that's led to wonderfulpeople I work with, right?
I don't have to sit there andnecessarily convince them that
this is the right way.
They've already consumed a loadof my stuff and they know what
roughly, that they're signing upfor from that perspective.
(08:07):
I suppose one of the things forme is not shying away with who I
am and what I want to deliver,being upfront with it really
early on in terms of, I knowthat these are the challenges
that you will face.
Yes, money might be one of them,but let me tell you your purpose
and your identity and yourrelationships and your time and
the fact that you've gotta startspending this thing is gonna be
really difficult.
(08:28):
I could produce the bestfinancial, most robust financial
plan in the world, the mostoptimized asset allocation
investment portfolio.
And it will all be worthless ifwe don't do this thing over here
because you're not gonna be ableto, you don't know what you're
gonna retire to.
You dunno what you're gonnaretire with and you dunno how
you're gonna spend your money.
so all of this is worthless.
So let's make it worthwhile.
(08:49):
Let's make your money worthwhileand let's discuss those things
upfront, because they're gonnagive us the foundations to
creating a wonderful.
Financial plan that encompassesall of the other things to do
with the retirement transition.
Yasmin Nguyen (09:03):
Wow.
for those who haven't gotten achance to experience your
brilliant content that's outthere, what would you say are
some of the common themes thatyou, you talk about?
Dan Haylett (09:15):
Yeah.
To be Yasmin, you mentioned, Ithink you know, it's, it's
interesting when.
People like us talk to eachother.
That sounds really bad.
People like us, like this newage, planners.
But I think there's a commonthread to this, right?
And it's a personal thread thatI found, and also been, ratified
by people like you that aredoing this as well.
And the things are.
Purpose, identity,relationships, time and spending
(09:38):
money.
we can add health into that
Yasmin Nguyen (09:41):
Okay.
Dan Haylett (09:41):
well.
But I think health kind of goesin there somewhere.
but they are the things that Ithink sit outside of a typical
I.
estate, cashflow, investmentportfolio type plan.
And yes, spending money isnothing to do with money, by the
way.
Like nothing.
(10:02):
maybe your income strategy is todo with spending, but actually
spending the thing that'semotional, behavioral when
everything, and maybe we can diginto that.
But yeah, they're the fivethings that I think everybody
needs to focus on, and there's apattern to those five things.
And if you don't, if one of themis outer kilter or not in
alignment, it's reallynoticeable.
(10:24):
Really noticeable for peoplethat I work with.
When that goes out with kilteror they have, or they come to
me, haven't worked on a coupleof them, you can really see how
that's playing on their mind andhow it may not be allowing them
to be free to enjoy their time.
Yasmin Nguyen (10:37):
Speaking of clients, how has the response
been?
for those who perhaps have beenalong around for a while with
more of a traditional financialplanning expectation, how has
this been introducing it to themas well as those who may be
coming in the door who'vealready experienced your.
Your content and know what toexpect.
I'm just curious what the rangeof, response has been from your
(10:59):
clients.
Dan Haylett (11:01):
Yeah, I suppose I've been pretty fortunate in
that I haven't really had thebaggage bit to deal with and I
know that's really tough for alot of people.
I think one of the big.
issues with many financialplanners adopting this, is that,
well, I've served these clientsfor so many years, I've now
gotta go back and tell them whatI've been doing is like not good
enough, or I'm, I dunno what,but like I've got this other
(11:23):
thing.
And so I've been reallyfortunate in that I've taken on
the vast majority of new clientsin this business.
I didn't really have that many,established clients.
work with.
So I've been able to go at thisfull on and not have to convince
people that there's been one ortwo.
and it's, there's been more thanone or two, but there's been a
(11:44):
few.
and again, the ones that I'vehad, I tried two things, right?
I tried the softly approach andit didn't work.
it just, it doesn't land.
When I've done it withpreexisting clients, I've just
gone hard in and gone and justbeen upfront like the, you've
done it this way.
we're doing it this way.
because, and I lead withchallenges, out of purpose and
(12:08):
identity and relationships andtime and spending money.
Can you name me some challengesthat you've had and when they
come back with these loads ofchallenges, it's oh, okay.
Do you get it now?
your financial plan has beengreat and robust, but you are
telling me that you're feeling abit lost.
You're telling me that you'renot really comfortable spending
that amount of money.
This is why we're gonna revisitthis to make sure that you know
(12:30):
that we can take advantage ofyour numbers,
Yasmin Nguyen (12:33):
Dan, have you noticed any common challenges
that keep resurfacing as you'vehad these conversations?
Dan Haylett (12:40):
yet spending money I, I want to work with people
that have a level of wealth,right?
and that's nothing, by the way,full disclosure, we charge fixed
fees.
our desire to deal with peoplewith wealth has nothing to do
with ripping a percentage feefrom their assets.
It's all to do with theirsituation, who I feel I can help
(13:02):
the best.
when I say wealth, they're not,this is not massive wealth, but
this is enough
Yasmin Nguyen (13:06):
Yeah.
Dan Haylett (13:07):
going, I know that I've got a level of wealth that
should see me okay, and I shouldbe able to enjoy it, but there's
enough challenges on the otherside to go, will it last and can
I really enjoy it?
And all of that stuff.
The, I think out of that, thebiggest challenge I see with
people is being able to releasetheir shackles, being able to,
(13:29):
get over everything that they'vebeen taught in their life about
saving money.
Everything that's been hardwiredinto them about the security of
having a pot of money behindthem, and then get them to
actually spend the thing down.
On the things that they love.
That is a real challenge.
And there is, I think a, thereis a chronic underspending
(13:49):
problem in retirement becausethere's so many unknowns that
cause fear that then causedoubt, that then cause other
questions and people just don'tspend enough money.
And they spend it.
They don't spend it at thedetriment of their joy and
happiness.
They've got so many things thatthey'd love to do, and these
aren't massive things, Yasmin,either, right?
These are not like cruisesaround the world.
(14:12):
This is, can I give mygrandchildren or children X, Y,
Z to help them?
And you're not talking hundredsof thousands.
You're talking.
10 grand, 20 grand.
can I, can we buy this new car?
Can we, these are, they're notmassive things, but they just
feel shackled to actually spendit so alien to people, to
decumulate to spend capital whenit's not coming back in and
(14:35):
having that safety net.
So the vast majority of people Iwork with, I think that's their.
That's their biggest challenge,But it's only the biggest
challenge by a fraction becauseI think the others are really
difficult too.
But that would be the one forme.
Yasmin Nguyen (14:55):
There's definitely a lot of challenges
for that particular challenge.
Dan, is there a particularapproach that you take to help
someone make that shift?
and is there a story of someonethat's had a breakthrough from
you helping them, be able toreally step into some joyful
spending?
Dan Haylett (15:12):
Yeah, there's several things.
I, it kind, it led me to write awhite paper.
So I've got the skill ofspending money, white paper.
which I'm sure we can add as adownload to the
Yasmin Nguyen (15:22):
Yeah.
Dan Haylett (15:23):
if anyone's interested, but, Yeah, I think,
as I said, I think spendingmoney's a skill, right?
So we need to learn the skilland there are a couple of things
that we can absolutely do tohelp ourselves learn this skill.
one of those is to understandsome truths, so cut through the
noise and understand sometruths.
And the great thing now is thismodern retirement that
(15:46):
everyone's going into hasprobably got 20 to 30 years
worth of data to supportspending patterns.
The truth is that people aren'tspending.
So if we show them this truth,right?
You, yeah, it's tough, but thisis the outcomes of what's going
on.
And saying that, by the way, onaverage people only spend about
(16:09):
30% of their starting netwealth.
They're leaving money on thetable.
14% of people on average aredrawing down capital.
Everyone else is either drawingdown the return of the
investment or less.
a and then about reframing thelanguage, asmi.
So what I try and say withpeople is, you are not leaving
money on the table.
(16:29):
You are leaving memories andexperiences on the table.
You are actually upping the.
potential of regret in yourlife.
That's what you are.
You're upping the potential ofregret and then you're leaving
memories and experiences on thetable.
Reframing these ways, in a muchmore mo reframing these subjects
in a mo much more emotive wayhas been the biggest game
(16:50):
changer for me.
When I talk about memories andexperiences, I also talk about,
we're not turning yourinvestments into income, we're
turning your money intomemories.
So forget this whole incomeplanning.
I talk about retirement memoryplanning.
So what memories do you wannacreate with your money?
Not, how much income can I,it's, that's an who knows,
(17:10):
right?
who knows, but.
What memories do you wanna make?
Who do you wanna make them withand how can we fund them?
think about the wonderfulconcept of memory dividends that
I talk to a lot of people about,made famous by a number of
people.
But Bill Perkins Die with Zerobook talks about this a lot,
this kind of concept thatspending your money or memories
gives you dividends for life,right?
(17:32):
You recall.
What you've done with friendsand family, and it brings you
joy and happiness in later life.
So I think it's really importantto reframe how we start thinking
about this, and thinking abouthow we spend our money and get
it out of money language, out offinancial language, and into.
Into real life, and that's beenpretty transformational for
(17:55):
people.
When we start talking, aboutthat, give our money meaning,
give it a name, it buckets.
Say, grandchildren's holiday,safari holiday, or Tom's college
fund or, 60th birthday cruise,right?
Money needs meaning if it'snumbers.
the one thing I did learnreally, which was
transformational, was wherenumbers and stories sit in our
brain.
(18:16):
numbers sit on the wrong side ofour brain.
They sit on the side of ourbrain that we don't quite
believe.
We challenge and we're veryskeptical of, and we're wary of.
So if we're constantly at thatside of our brain with our
retirement plans, I don't thinkwe're ever gonna fully let go.
We need to develop stories, weneed to develop ways to make,
give our money, meaning, andyeah, it's had a massive impact.
(18:38):
And actually, do you know what,it's really had an impact.
And there's a particular exampleand it's money and goods, which
I think is really interesting ina way that, They have absolutely
brought forward their spending.
and they read an article Iwrote.
good couple years ago, which wasentitled, giving Your Money Away
with a Warm Heart, not a coldhand.
(19:00):
And there were various differentversions of that particular
thing, but this kind of thingaround leaving your money to the
end to give to your kids.
again, I provide the researchand evidence, right?
The average age of someoneinherit in money's 57 or
something stupid like that.
56.
they're probably set, what dothey want it at that point for?
They really took on board thiskind of money, meaning,
(19:22):
memories, joy of giving, joy ofspending.
they went and brought a dog.
supported their family withhouse purchases and it all ended
up with them actually givingaway jewelry.
and she, the wife, the wifeactually had this piece of
really, sentimental jewelry thatwas her mom's.
(19:43):
And she was gonna, basically, itwas in her will to leave it to
her daughter, and they just gotin such a mindset of seeing joy
and happiness in giving andusing and doing all this stuff
that she said.
I actually give it to mydaughter now.
She said, I won't wear it.
My daughter loves it.
She'll wear it.
And they started crying andbreaking down in the office
about how just unlocking theshackles of.
(20:05):
This kind of like givingmentality this kind of joyful
mentality allowed them to seethis stuff while they were doing
it.
So my thing here is not alwaysabout the money, right?
This is unlocking what's reallyimportant to people and
understanding they can do thesethings now.
They don't have to wait untilsome date that they're never
gonna see or never see theimpact of what they're doing.
Yasmin Nguyen (20:27):
Wow.
I love that.
you're totally speaking mylanguage.
You said the word joy, like Manytimes.
And each time I'm like, yep, Iget it.
But, and it's, I think it'sbrilliant that you are
reframing, spending and money asthe vehicle for meaning for
memories.
And that in many ways that, thatmoney is like an agent of joy,
(20:50):
right?
Where you are helping themdiscover all these
possibilities.
And I imagine that's why.
Having, these deeperconversations with clients
reveal what some of theirunderlying desires, regrets, and
other areas in which you canmake that connection or that
dot, connect the dots to helpsupport them through the
financial piece I.
Dan Haylett (21:12):
Yeah, a absolutely.
And it's really interesting,right?
I think it's one of those thingswhere.
And this is just, this is a bitgut feel, but it's baked in a
little bit of real life thatI've had, but I think.
clients won't necessarily thankus the hard work and deep work
(21:33):
that we have to do they realizethe impact and that impact might
be a few years away.
So I've almost had conversationsalong the lines of, I get it
now, Dan, like that kind of twoyears down the line.
It's oh, I get why we talkedabout that, or I understand why
we, so I think, thing I will sayis that the thing I've learned
is I don't expect transformationafter one conversation.
(21:56):
I don't expect them to turnaround and go, oh, I get it now.
I'm a new person.
I've got new purpose.
It takes a while.
It's a journey for everybody.
But what I do know and what I doguarantee, for me anyway,
personally, is one day this willclick, there'll be a thing where
they'll be like, ah, get it.
I understand it.
and it's been built up.
I get why we've been havingthese conversations.
(22:16):
It's built up to this day, andnow I feel better to go and do
the thing.
and that's connecting the dotson the journey.
And I think that's why asfinancial planning
professionals, as.
Coaching professionals, aslifestyle planning
professionals.
this is about embracingourselves as guides, not
mechanics, right?
we have to be guides on ajourney and we have to walk life
(22:38):
with them on this journey andsupport them on it because it's
full of unknowns, right?
We have to be, we have toembrace uncertainty we need our
clients to embrace that, aswell.
and I think.
That's just a key element for meis to go, look, this is an
ongoing process full of unknownsand uncertainty, but I'm gonna
(22:59):
be here for you and we're gonnamake it as joyful and as
impactful, as po as possible.
along the way
Yasmin Nguyen (23:06):
Dan, how did you develop the confidence, the
experience, the insights to stepinto this role of a guide for
your clients?
Dan Haylett (23:16):
Yeah, it's a great question.
I think.
I think I've always, from a kid,Yasmin, I've had inbuilt
confidence that probably goesway beyond my knowledge and
experience.
So I think, I think I'm allright now, but I've always been
pretty confident and I've alwayshad a belief and I think
through, I had a really badperiod of my career, that lasted
(23:37):
for three or four years, butbefore that, I've al I've always
believed in my voice.
I've always believed in, myopinion.
I've always believed in myability to communicate and talk
to people.
And that's how I got to where Igot to.
And and I was pretty successfulin sport when I was a, when I
was a kid.
And, and I got there because ofmy communication skills and my
(23:58):
ability to influence, peoplealong the way.
and so I think.
it, the confidence comes from abit like, the iceberg analogy,
right?
people don't see the work youput in underneath this, right?
They see the podcastconversation for an hour.
They see the sketch, they seethe content, but that's been
developed over the last sevenyears.
(24:19):
I have done, I have read morebooks in the last six years than
I've read in my 45 years oflife, right?
I've read.
Book after book.
I've listened to podcast.
After podcast.
I've had conversation afterconversation late at night with
people, staying up to speak topeople in America, in Australia,
in South Africa, and think tojust.
(24:39):
Kind of get this understanding,constant reevaluation of
conversations I have withpeople.
and we talked about AI earlier,before we hit record.
But the ability to record theseconversations and analyze this
stuff now to see, what does thatmean and where did I quite go
wrong?
And, that learning growthmentality, I've always had that,
and I think it's just served mereally well.
(25:00):
But yeah, I think, people don'tnecessarily understand the kind
of the work that goes beneath.
To have that confidence that youneed to produce this stuff.
but it's, I think it's when youwalk life with clients, Yasmin,
you see it, right?
if I see more than one person gothrough something, I think
that's a pattern.
So I might as well talk aboutit, right?
If more than one person's doneit, I think we should, get that
(25:23):
conversation out there and do itwith confidence.
Otherwise, people won't believeyou.
Yasmin Nguyen (25:27):
Yeah, you've certainly made a significant
investment in yourself and yourpersonal growth and then that
provides the opportunity for youto be able to really make a
contribution.
I.
To, your clients, but also thegeneral, population as well
that's learning about this.
and you mentioned sketches.
I'd like to dive a little bitdeeper into this, brilliant
(25:47):
approach that you've used tohelp communicate some common
concepts that, that people arenavigating.
Can you share a little bit moreabout the ideas behind your
sketches and perhaps with, sharewith us maybe a couple of
sketches that, you foundextremely useful in
communicating with.
Clients and people.
Dan Haylett (26:05):
Yeah, this get, it happened by accident in, in
that, in, in my first, not myfirst meeting, but in my first
kind of, number of meetings thatI had, thinking about explaining
these concepts to, to peoplethat actually are bright.
And clever, but I thought werebright and cleverer than what
they were.
So you're explaining theseconcepts of people that and
(26:27):
what, just very quickly on thisone, I work with a lot of people
in asset management.
My background was in assetmanagement and a lot of my
friends and have become clientsand a lot of people that I've
never known have become clients.
These are people that work withmoney.
work yet.
They didn't seem to get it.
Like when it comes to their ownstuff like it, it's a bit like
(26:47):
a, I call it like a builder'shouse, right?
Quite often when you go around abuilder's house, it's not
complete.
It's not finished.
'cause they're working oneverybody else's houses.
And it's the same with peoplewith their personal finance.
I.
I'm explaining these, this stuffto people.
I'm explaining about longevity,I'm explaining about health
span, I'm explaining about,leaving memories on the table
and I'm explaining about how,retirement is more of a human
(27:11):
problem than it is a, a mathproblem and all of this stuff.
And they're nodding things.
And I'm like, look, it's likethis.
And you get the flip chart upand you just draw something and
then they go, oh yeah, no, I getthat.
And I'm like, oh.
So you didn't get the words, butyou get the picture.
and and then someone said to me,have you come across Carl
Richards?
I was like, no.
(27:31):
Who's Carl Richards?
I'd literally just started, so Ithen Read Carl's stuff, looked
at his sketches and thought,actually, this is a really
interesting way to communicate.
Googled other people.
So there's lots of people thatsketch in different industries
and professions, and as a way tocommunicate, reached out to
Carl, become, really goodfriends with him and have talked
to him a lot and then justdeveloped this.
(27:53):
I was like, actually, if there'sa concept that I think needs to
be explained more than once, I'mgonna sketch about it.
If I think I can make an impact,IE my sketches, I want to hit,
hit them between the eyes andgo, oh, really?
so yeah, that's where it's comefrom.
And now whenever my firstthought about content, whenever
I get an idea or a client sayssomething, my first thought is,
(28:14):
can I sketch that?
can I sketch it to give them.
Another way of consuming it.
And can I sketch it so I can getit out into the world?
That might cause some thoughtsaround how this topic is.
Yasmin Nguyen (28:27):
if you could, introduce one of them that maybe
you can describe, So maybe anexample then.
Dan Haylett (28:33):
Okay.
I think what the, there's,there's two that I'm gonna
quickly touch on.
One is healthspan versuslifespan.
this drawing basically has ablue line that says this is your
lifespan, and it then has a,like a red line that's going
from left back down to right andsaid, actually, look, you are,
you are gonna be healthy lessthan you're gonna be alive.
this concept of spending yourmoney whilst time and health is
(28:54):
on your side and not planningfor this kind of constant spend
throughout a hundred year lifegoing, you know the stats say in
the UK that healthy lifeexpectancy is 62 years old,
right?
So you might spend 10, 15 yearsof your life in.
In bad health.
In health, not necessarily, butin health, that is gonna prevent
(29:15):
you from doing things.
so we should take advantage ofthe fact that, and we should
know that your health span isgonna fall.
and then the main one for me,actually, one of the first ones
that I drew was I.
The go, no, go slow.
Go years or go, no go.
Go slow.
No go.
Years.
And I've changed that to likeexploring nesting and
reflecting, but it's theseblocks of spending, so it's
(29:37):
kinda actually you've got a 10year window of opportunity.
Block one and it should behigher.
And that's your go-go exploringyears.
You then drop down to yournesting slow, slowing down
years, and you drop down againinto your reflecting.
later life, no-go years.
(29:58):
And that's had a massive Im, Iknow that has been printed out
and stuck on people's fridges,et cetera.
It's had a big impact because itreally helps people start to
frame in their head actuallythat.
Retirement is one, isn't onegreat big timeframe.
It does go in different ways.
Time is different as we progressthrough, and we need to make
sure we take advantage of thosefirst blocks there, and it holds
(30:22):
people accountable to going, Ido it now?
Should I do it now?
Should I do it now?
so I, off the back of that, Icreated another sketch, this
kind of what are you waitingfor?
So it's this kind of net worthline that goes, keeps going up
and up, followed by a what areyou waiting for in a coffin at
the end, right?
It's what were you waiting for?
tomorrow a week.
at some point it's gonna end.
(30:43):
and It's just getting people towake up and do this.
So yeah, that's, it's been a bigthing for me and I'm thrilled
that some other advisors arereaching out and using these
sketches and et cetera.
'cause I think it's, it's agreat way to get some concept in
front of people and just start adifferent way of talking about
this.
Yasmin Nguyen (31:00):
What a powerful tool to communicate some of
these topics and, I'll make surethat we.
We post some links in the shownotes so that people can get a
chance to actually see thosesketches, that you've referenced
and the other sketches thatyou've put together.
Dan I'm curious, as you've hadthese deeper conversations with
clients about their lives, aboutjoy, about memories and re you
(31:21):
know, things that can reallybring fulfillment, how has that
impacted your business?
Dan Haylett (31:28):
Yeah, I like tremendously.
I think, pe people that workhere, Are, I think more engaged
in the process that you knowthat this is not just a business
that processes numbers.
This is a business that dealswith humans That kind of
transcends through everybody inthe business, whether you are
doing adminis tasks or you'redoing power planning work, or
(31:53):
you're crunching some numbers oryou're sitting in front of
clients.
dealing with humans and weshould always have a human first
approach to all of that workthat we're doing.
and so it's definitely madepeople.
about this very differently.
So it's had a tremendous impacton the business.
(32:15):
it's also had a tremendousimpact on the type of clients
that we work with.
it's, I can say hand on heartthat the Im, the impact that we
have with our clients.
compared to what it was when Ifirst joined, we were having an
impact then is so much moremeaningful, so much more
(32:38):
gratifying, and so much moreimpactful that it just energizes
everybody to go again and goagain.
yeah, it's had a, it is had amassive impact on the business.
and constantly want to grow thisright.
that what we're doing now andhow we're doing it.
In its infancy, right?
we're constantly looking andthinking, so the business
(33:00):
maintains its growth mindsetbased on the challenges that
we're trying to face.
It's not just a, doing adviceand standing still and
stagnating, which is quiteboring.
It's got the energy in it to beable to think about how we
develop this going forward.
Yasmin Nguyen (33:13):
I imagine with the impact that you're making
and the fulfillment you'regetting from the advisor side,
but also on the.
Client side, you're deepeningthe level of trust.
And I think that might even,lead into some potential
referrals or even, retainingclients too.
Dan Haylett (33:30):
Yeah, look, I, one thing that's really nice,
actually on that, that thereferral, is coming.
Really quickly.
So I think typically, and so wenever ask and we never actually
base our numbers on referrals,right?
any new client targets that wewanna make in the business has a
zero referral thing, right?
(33:50):
It like.
should never ask or expect anyof our clients to do our work
for us.
That's a big thing for me.
I base all of the work I do ongetting new clients coming to us
because they've searched us outor seen us, but we do get a
really decent amount ofreferrals because we just
concentrate on the client withno agenda.
Let's just concentrate on them.
This is not a by the way, weneed to wow our clients, so they
(34:11):
give us two of their mates.
That's.
You're never gonna get it rightif you do it that way.
but one thing I have absolutelynoticed over the last three or
four years is that I'm getting alot more referrals after one
conversation.
Like the, you're not having todo the whole journey, deliver
advice, and then go, oh, thishas been great.
You are having one conversation.
(34:34):
Where you are talking aboutmaybe two, you're talking about
them.
I get people to stand up andwrite stuff on a flip chart.
I get people to, really startcom opening up and thinking
about it.
I get couples to talk prettyearly on, really impactful,
upfront conversations, and I getreferral they're like, oh, like
I'm, friend needs to come seeyou.
(34:55):
Like they need this, So that'sbeen massively impactful.
it's not, it's very much thatfirst experience they get and
again, that all the sciencearound human beings is baked
into that, right?
The first experience and thelast experience is the things
that we remember.
The things in the middle are alittle bit, don't really know
what's going on, because I'mtrying to deliver huge amounts
of value upfront and focus onthem, seems like they're going,
(35:19):
this is a, this is unbelievabletransformation.
transformative after oneconversation, and then referrals
are coming quicker.
Yasmin Nguyen (35:25):
Dan, with all this potential upside, I'm
curious, where do you see thestate of the industry as it
relates to the adoption of moreof the holistic non-financial
planning aspects?
Dan Haylett (35:39):
Yeah, I, look, I think it is, I think it's binary
in the, in the uk There is a, anaging.
Advisor workforce.
I think the average age of anadvisor is in its sixties.
in their sixties, I should say.
and got, they've built reallycushy businesses.
(36:01):
They've built businesses that,that they don't wanna disrupt.
they know it's not being doneright.
They know that, this kind oflike hardly any service for a
big whacking, great percentagefee is amazing for them.
Not great for the client, butthey don't wanna rock the boat
'cause they're five years awayfrom exiting the whole thing.
So I think there's, and whilstthat bias towards that group of
(36:23):
people exists, I think it'sgonna be a slow burn.
But on the other end of thescale, and this isn't
necessarily an age thing, you'vejust got new people entering the
profession that are grabbingthis earlier on, which I love to
see.
they understand that this is theway and the only way to deliver
it.
this isn't a balanced approachbetween financial advice, life
(36:45):
planning, and coaching.
This is an integrated, blendedapproach that you need to
deliver.
This all.
Now, you might wanna employ oroutsource specific retirement
coaching elements or that, butyou need the whole thing under
your roof.
You need the whole capability.
and that's where I see the mostinteresting transition
(37:06):
happening.
People are doing this from theword go and developing amazing,
wonderful businesses, but whilstthe bulk of clients and stuff
sits up here.
They're just not gonna change.
And gut instinct and a littlebit of my fear says clients
might need to change hands oneor two times to get the
experience they deserve.
There's huge amounts ofconsolidation going on by these
(37:28):
big consolidators that are notreally delivering this either.
They're paying lip service'causeit sounds like marketing.
and they're getting swallowedup.
I think it might be whereclients then go, actually.
This thing over here.
So that's why I'm so passionateabout getting the message out
there.
I, I don't, I can't work witheverybody in a one-to-one basis.
(37:50):
If I can impact hundreds,thousands of people where they
actually sit up, take note andgo, I need to speak to someone
like Dan that lives near me orspeak that's brilliant.
them to get out of where theyare and into a place that's
delivering this stuff.
So adoption up here, over here,but limited amount of people
adopting it, I think will onlygrow, might grow at a slower
(38:12):
pace than we all want until thedinosaurs exit.
Yasmin Nguyen (38:15):
Yeah.
What do you see as, the barriersor what gets in the way of
advisors really embracing thisapproach and what's missing in
order for them to reallyincorporate this?
Dan Haylett (38:28):
Yeah, again, I think, I've got lots of friends.
the pond.
and I think the CFP curriculumis embracing retirement or
retire like coaching andbehavioral finance.
it a lot more, I think there'swhole dedicated syllabuses and
chapters to this.
So I welcome this right in herein the uk.
Like it's still a very liketextbook driven, numbers led
(38:52):
transactional advice ledqualification, right?
So in order to become afinancial advisor.
over here there are threeroutes, excuse me, that you go
down none of those routes reallyintegrate any type of coaching,
communication behavioral advice.
and you have to kinda go searchthat out yourself.
(39:14):
So you really need to wanna doit.
to go search it out.
I think the true transitioncomes and transformation comes
when it's forced upon people tohave this as part of their
skillset.
Yasmin Nguyen (39:24):
Yeah.
I see.
Hey, I remember in our previousconversation you said something
that really, caught my attentionand you, I believe you said
something that the minute that afinancial plan is created that
it's wrong or something likethat.
can you like elaborate on thatcomment?
Dan Haylett (39:41):
think it comes back to this, this embrace
uncertainty thing that I said, afinancial plan is trying to
predict the future.
I.
I dunno about you, but I'mactually pretty rubbish at that.
I've never been able to get itright.
and I think that's one of thebig things I see is where I
(40:01):
start working with clientswho've worked with a financial
advisor or planner before andthey've developed a plan and the
language they come and use withus is language of certainty,
right?
It's kinda this investmentreturn is built in.
And not gonna get that.
Oh, aren't I right?
No.
the, so a financial plan is asnapshot in time that is wrong.
(40:24):
The moment the client leaves theoffice, because it is full of
future assumptions that are sochallenging to get anywhere near
right.
Inflation, investment returns,longevity, health span, keep
naming it, spending.
Children, grandchildren, houserepairs, car breaking down.
just keep, just keep going.
(40:44):
There's, so it's a, it's a bigpicture tool that allows us to
create a sense of direction.
But it is not certainty.
the more truthful we are withthe people we sit in front of,
the better equipped they will beto deal with uncertainty when it
comes their way.
'cause there is one guaranteeand the guarantee that is, that
(41:05):
something will hit you in theface that you don't know has
been coming.
and so we need to make sure thatthey're prepared for those
moments.
and.
That's I say it.
It's yeah.
We could have the best financialplan.
We could talk about your, whatyou want to do.
I'll give you a quick example.
wonderful couple.
(41:25):
They had a really greatretirement plan in terms of what
they were gonna do with theirtime.
I.
were, key members of an amateursoccer club over here, a good
amateur, like asemi-professional type soccer
club.
And they were on the board andthey were high up, and they
were, that was their, theywanted to get more involved with
(41:46):
local soccer and give back tothe community.
Very quickly that turned roundbecause the whole football club
got sold and got and they werelike, oh my God.
what's happened now?
our, all of our time was gonnabe based on giving back and
running kids soccer and doingall of this stuff, and they
both, the couple loved it.
They both loved it.
(42:08):
They had to like, they werelike, what's going on here now?
They have since pivoted.
They breed Irish Wolf Hounds.
Now they had three Irish WolfHounds.
They, so like everything changedwithin, and that happened six
weeks after he retired.
I.
So the whole thing about theirtime, it just like this
financial plan about how whatthey were spending their money
(42:28):
on had to basically becompletely torn up and started
again within six weeks of itbeing created.
there is no certainty.
Yasmin Nguyen (42:36):
yeah.
It's, the plan is a snapshot asto what is, and it's a
projection of what could be.
But the reality is that lifeand, changes and we experience
so many different things, and asa guide with your clients,
that's why it's important to beable to understand what else is
going on in their lives in orderto make some of those
adjustments for them.
Dan Haylett (42:56):
Yeah, and that's why I love talking about
purpose, identity, relationshipsand that stuff because although
they might change, if we'regonna give ourselves like
statements of guide guidance,like this kind of what is my
purpose?
Who am I?
These things have more longevityto them than.
Financial projections ornumbers.
And if you've got those guidingstatements and those guiding
(43:18):
principles, then you cannavigate the numbers to suit in
with who you are, what you wantto do, who's in your social
circles, how you wanna spendyour time, and who you wanna
spend it with.
They can be pretty consistent.
They can give you thefoundations to a really
meaningful retirement.
You might just have to adapt theway you fund it and the way you
experience it, depending on whatgoes on.
Yasmin Nguyen (43:41):
Yeah.
Dan, for an advisor who isintrigued by this conversation,
who's looking to incorporatemore, life planning,
non-financial aspects of thisconversation with their clients,
what advice would you give them?
I.
Dan Haylett (43:55):
be curious.
Be open.
Have a growth mindset.
Google, speak to people likeyou.
Bob Lara's, retirement CoachesAssociation, George Kinder's.
wonderful work on his, lifeplanning, registered life
planner designation, searchpeople out, talk to them, read
(44:15):
about this stuff.
You've wrote a wonderful book.
There's many books you knowabout this and be open and
curious to learn and don't beafraid because what I will say
is.
I can't guarantee much, I do tryand guarantee is that this is
what clients need.
This is what the public need,and they are absolutely coming
(44:38):
round to the fact that they needthis.
there are people sitting infront of me because I do what I
do, and because I'm not just anumber crunching financial
advisor.
So don't be afraid.
Put yourself out there.
Be bold and be brave.
Yasmin Nguyen (44:51):
So it's great tips.
Dan, what's next for you in thisspace?
Any upcoming projects,innovations, things that you're
excited about?
Dan Haylett (44:59):
too many.
The brain swells my, my, mynotes section on my iPhone.
I think if someone saw that,Yasmin, I'll be sectioned.
I mean it, look,
Yasmin Nguyen (45:07):
I.
Dan Haylett (45:07):
wild and chaotic.
yeah, so I'm trying to actually,I.
I feel like I'm, I embrace allthe work.
I'm embracing all the work thatI've done.
So hone in on the sketches, honein on the podcast, and think
about now I.
Instead of doing more, thinkabout taking what I've got and
(45:30):
how can I get that in morehands.
That's now my, I think there'senough content to last my
lifetime right now.
I've got ideas about more, but Ithink what I'm gonna do is find
ways to get it out there.
hence one of the things I'vedone was the sketch store, and
I've got a physical hard copysketchbook that, that I've been
hum, humbled enough that peoplehave started to buy and use in
(45:53):
their client meetings.
I'm thinking about ways to tryand help people develop
sketching as a communicationtool.
how can we do that?
and then really getting thepodcast out into, in, into more
ears thinking about putting thisall together in a way to present
(46:13):
this, all these frameworks andsketches and ideas that I've
had, how can I condense thatdown in, into something
meaningful to deliver to boththe public and advisors.
That has the biggest impact andhow can they take that forward?
you've been very gracious toshare a couple of wonderful
ideas with me that you've had.
So sometimes it's nice to hearother people's opinion.
I'm so in this, I forget whatthat might be sometimes.
(46:36):
yeah, I think, I think a seriesaround the sketches, and how to
use them to communicate,particular concepts with clients
is something that I'm definitelythinking about over the next few
months.
Yasmin Nguyen (46:46):
that's so exciting.
You've got so many innovativeand creative and impactful,
things that's happening here.
You mentioned podcasts.
Can you share with us a littlebit about your humans versus
retirement podcasts and what'sthe focus on that particular
program?
I.
Dan Haylett (47:00):
Yeah.
the, what started off just overtwo years ago as something, as a
passion project I had, I calledin the favor of six.
I.
Reasonably close friends whowere also pretty decent names,
but I thought I'd make it to sixand that would, I'd have six
wonderful conversations.
I'd have some content to deliversome client to, to clients.
(47:22):
I'd learn a bit and then fastforward two years, I'm now
episode 78 and a hundredthousand downloads.
it's just gathered itself somepace in it.
And really what I wanted to dowas having an environment to
speak to amazing people, doingamazing work through different,
avenues of kind of professionand get these conversations out
(47:45):
there because I don't thinkenough conversations were being
had, And in a way that can beconsumed.
I'd done some research and itwas like, there's more people
listening to podcasts and not asmany people reading blogs and
people are more open tolistening to stuff on train
journeys and car journeys.
I'm a feet first kind of guy andI thought, you know what, let's
(48:05):
just hit record and see where itgoes.
And Yeah, it is tackling allthose issues.
It's tackling, I've had a sleepexpert on, I've had people that
specialize in fitness for overfifties.
I've had behavioral financepeople, economists, coaches.
I've had real clients on there.
I've had three amazing episodeswith clients that have been,
(48:27):
just sharing their story, whichI, that's probably, I've had the
biggest, feedback from, and,yeah.
it's just an avenue, selfishly,it's an avenue for me to learn
from amazing people.
And then it just so happens thatit's in the big, wide world and
people are listening to it andit's having an impact on them.
yeah, it's been a wonderfulcouple of years.
Yasmin Nguyen (48:46):
Wow.
So in addition to your podcast,where can our listeners connect
with you and also learn moreabout your work?
Dan Haylett (48:54):
Yeah, so LinkedIn is the main place I come off,
Twitter, stroke X at some pointthis year because it was like,
mentally doing me in.
So I was like, I'm not on thereanymore.
so LinkedIn is the main place,humans versus retirement
website, humans vsretirement.com.
that's where.
You can have a look at,everything, my newsletter.
So I do a weekly newsletter,which I'm delighted to say I'm
(49:17):
now on edition 50, so I'vealmost been doing it for a year.
I've had a few weeks off, but,every now and again.
where I try and share somepretty, I try and share an
exclusive thought.
So just, keep something back forpeople that are really
appreciating, the work.
and then, yeah, the podcast isavailable on all players and I'm
(49:38):
on YouTube doing some video aswell.
yeah, search, search it all out,connect up, reach out.
I'm so open to having one-to-oneconversations with anybody that
feels they'd like deeperconversation about how I do it,
what I do, and if they feel likethey can learn anything from me,
I'd be, hugely open to speakingto anybody and helping them out
on their journey.
Yasmin Nguyen (49:58):
that's how we connected was you shared this
brilliant, sketch and Icommented, and next thing you
know, we were on, a calltogether.
I'll be sure to make sure, thatwe, list all those different
ways to connect with you in theshow notes as well, so that.
That, people can, reach out toyou.
Dan, any final thoughts afterthis?
Just really thought provokingconversation.
Dan Haylett (50:19):
yeah.
Look again, For any members ofthe public that, are listening,
I would have a as much of a Foryour purpose and your identity
and your relationships and yourtime as much as you have a plan
for your, investments.
and don't underestimate the workthat you have to do.
(50:42):
you are.
You are having to unwindpotentially 20, 30 years of
experiences and behaviors to dosomething new.
This is a big transition andpeople write about it and talk
about it for a reason.
'cause it's a hugely a motivetransition.
so be prepared to put some workin and you will be handsomely
(51:03):
rewarded for that work that youdo put in.
and similarly for any advisorslistening, the real impact lies
in this work.
I've done both.
The real impact lies in thiswork.
Be brave, be bold, be curious.
it.
Your clients will thank you forit.
and there is so many people thatare doing this work that really
(51:24):
want to help other people learnand grow from this'cause we
understand how much, impact thatit has.
yeah, don't be afraid of it andembrace it.
Yasmin Nguyen (51:32):
Dan, I thank you for it.
I thank you for all the wisdom,all the, valuable insights, the
care, everything that you'redoing.
you're really paving a path formany others and modeling this
for I think what could beextraordinarily meaningful way
to make a difference in people'slives.
So thank you so much for sharingthat and also being here with,
me today.
Dan Haylett (51:52):
It is been a pleasure, Yasmin, I'm right back
at you as well, yeah, can't waitto carry on our conversations
and thank you for having me on.
Yasmin Nguyen (51:58):
Thank you for taking the time to join us
today.
If you enjoyed this episode orfound it valuable, please
subscribe, follow and leave acomment or view on your favorite
platform.
If you have friends, clients, orloved ones who are retired or
thinking about retirement, weinvite you to share this show
with them.
Check out this show notes withlinks to resources mentioned in
(52:19):
thisepisode@realretirementshow.com.
Remember, retirement is a joyfuljourney we get to experience
together.
Join us next week for anotherreal retirement conversation.
you are not leaving money on the table.
(00:02):
You are leaving memories andexperiences on the table.
reframing these subjects in a momuch more emotive way has been
the biggest game changer for me.
So forget this whole incomeplanning.
I talk about retirement memoryplanning.
So what memories do you wannacreate with your money?
Who do you wanna make them withand how can we fund them?
think about the wonderfulconcept of memory dividends that
(00:23):
I talk to a lot of people about,made famous by a number of
people.
But Bill Perkins Die with Zerobook talks about this a lot,
this kind of concept thatspending your money or memories
gives you dividends for life,right?
You recall.
What you've done with friendsand family, and it brings you
joy and happiness in later life.
(00:43):
So I think it's really importantto reframe how we start thinking
about this, and thinking abouthow we spend our money and get
it out of money language, out offinancial language, and Into
real life, and that's beenpretty transformational for
people.
When we start talking,
Yasmin Nguyen (00:59):
Welcome back to The Real Retirement Show.
My name is Yasmin.
Here with my co-host Kathleen.
Whether you're retired orthinking about retirement, we
delve into the multifacetedworld of retirement beyond the
finances.
This isn't your typicalretirement discussion.
It's a vibrant journey into whatretirement truly means in
today's world.
(01:19):
We bring you real stories fromreal retirees and experts
discussing real challenges,surprises, joys, heartaches, and
the myriad of emotions that comewith retirement.
From addressing family dynamicsto mental and physical health,
to finding purpose, we tacklethe issues that truly matter to
retirees and those thinkingabout retirement.
(01:42):
Today we're diving deep into theevolving landscape of
retirement, rethinking purpose,identity, relationship, and how
we spend our time, money, andenergy in this next stage of
life.
Our guest is someone who ispassionate about challenging the
outdated narratives aroundretirement and helping people
truly thrive in their secondhalf.
(02:04):
Joining us today is Dan Haylett,a financial partner and the head
of growth at TFP FinancialPlanning.
In the uk.
Dan specializes in financialplanning, retirement planning,
and life planning forindividuals over 50.
Beyond numbers and spreadsheets.
He's deeply invested in thehuman side of retirement,
(02:24):
guiding people through theemotional and behavioral aspects
of this major life transition.
Dan also hosts the podcasts, theHumans versus Retirement, where
he explores the psychologicalshifts, challenges and
opportunities that come withstepping into retirement.
With a background in the assetmanagement industry and a
(02:45):
mission to help 1 million peopleredefine their retirement
experience, Dan brings a wealthof insights, experience, and
inspiration to the conversation.
Get ready for a thoughtprovoking discussion about
breaking free from outdatednorms and designing a life you
truly love in retirement.
(03:05):
Let's dive in.
Dan.
Welcome to the show.
Dan Haylett (03:08):
Yasmin, it's such a pleasure to join you and I'm
thrilled to be on this side ofthe mic.
this is wonderful for me.
Yasmin Nguyen (03:15):
Oh, well, Dan, you know, it's hard to believe
that it's only been recentlythat we've met and I've really
admired your work and yourinsights, and especially your
sketches that you've sharedonline.
And I feel like even thoughwe've only known each other for
a brief amount of time, we bothlive and serve by a similar
playbook.
Dan Haylett (03:32):
Yeah, listen, that first conversation we had and
the interaction we've had onLinkedIn has been brilliant.
And yeah, we've definitely got alot in common.
and yeah, can't wait to havethis conversation and talk about
all things retirement.
Yasmin Nguyen (03:44):
Well, Dan, for those of us who haven't gotten a
chance to get to know you, wouldyou share a little bit about
your story and what led you toincorporate a more holistic
approach to your work and alsoyour life?
Dan Haylett (03:56):
I could probably spend half an hour about the
backstory.
I won't go into that.
So we, we wanna get into thejuicy stuff.
But, I think my kind of storythat led me to here was really,
I.
Quite a deep personal one where,I had, some quite significant
challenges, mental healthchallenges in my mid thirties,
which caused me to question lifequestion, what I was doing.
(04:19):
dig down into, why am I doingwhat I'm doing?
it was very, I wouldn't say itwas money driven.
I was very much shackled to ahigh earning, high pressured,
career that had little purpose,that satisfied me in very little
ways.
That was actually probably doingmore harm than good to my
family.
(04:40):
And all culminated in, in thesekind of mental health challenges
I had whi, which.
made me just reassess.
So I say to people now, Iretired at 35.
That the emotional, challenges,the things that I faced and the
things I tried to do aroundpurpose and identity and
(05:03):
relationships and time andmoney.
I carry through into the workthat I do, and I'm sure we get
onto that was something I wentthrough quite early at 35.
So I retired from corporateworld at 35 really discover, or
really tried to discover what Iwanted to do with my life.
where could I add value, wherecould I make an impact?
What would give me a real goodsense to pull back the duvet, to
(05:24):
put a smile on my face, and todo something I truly love.
And it's led me, to, to doingthis really, six, seven years
ago.
I joined TFP, brought into thebusiness as a director and
shareholder.
and really in my time at inAsset Management, I traveled the
length and breadth of the uk.
Speaking with and working withother financial advisors.
(05:47):
And throughout that kind of 10,12 year period of doing that, I,
I really molded my thought.
I never really thought I wouldbecome a financial planner,
right?
It wasn't the thing.
But, when the opportunity cameand I really sat down and
thought about what that coulddeliver to me as a person, and
of the experiences of the good,the bad, and the ugly of
financial advisory businesseshad a real clear thought process
(06:08):
about what I wanted to do andhow I wanted to do it.
And it really all molded into myown emotional journey with money
and how I then wanted to helpother people's transitions from
a full-time career that maybethey weren't necessarily in love
with, and into a different phaseof their life, one with more joy
(06:28):
and happiness.
from the get go, Yasmin, I dugdeep into kind of the emotional
and behavioral aspects of money,knowing it was much more than
spreadsheets and bar charts.
Yasmin Nguyen (06:38):
Yeah, Dan, that's been a really powerful personal
journey that's really inspiredyou to channel that outwards to
help others, and I'm.
Curious, is there a particularphilosophy that, that you follow
to introduce a morewell-rounded, balanced approach
to both the money and thenon-financial side based on just
your journey, but also thewisdom that you've gained?
Dan Haylett (07:01):
Yeah, I try not to be afraid of it.
I lead with it.
So I think what I've, what Idecided to do really early on
almost be upfront and go, Thisis what I believe I.
you may not know it yet, but Iknow money and finances is an
emotional lightning rod for allof this stuff.
You may be coming here to talkabout your pension funds or your
(07:21):
cash flow or your tax situation,but I know that's a smokescreen
for who am I, who do I want tobe?
I'm not saying it's notimportant, I just know there are
other important things.
and I really went to lead withthat.
Really early on my outwardlanguage, of the, the mission
around the podcast, the sketchesand all of that stuff, is to say
to people, this is me.
(07:44):
you know what you're gettinginto.
You know that you're not gonnabe working with a typical
financial advisor.
You know that we're gonna betalking about more than just
spreadsheets.
In fact, that's led to wonderfulpeople I work with, right?
I don't have to sit there andnecessarily convince them that
this is the right way.
They've already consumed a loadof my stuff and they know what
roughly, that they're signing upfor from that perspective.
(08:07):
I suppose one of the things forme is not shying away with who I
am and what I want to deliver,being upfront with it really
early on in terms of, I knowthat these are the challenges
that you will face.
Yes, money might be one of them,but let me tell you your purpose
and your identity and yourrelationships and your time and
the fact that you've gotta startspending this thing is gonna be
really difficult.
(08:28):
I could produce the bestfinancial, most robust financial
plan in the world, the mostoptimized asset allocation
investment portfolio.
And it will all be worthless ifwe don't do this thing over here
because you're not gonna be ableto, you don't know what you're
gonna retire to.
You dunno what you're gonnaretire with and you dunno how
you're gonna spend your money.
so all of this is worthless.
So let's make it worthwhile.
(08:49):
Let's make your money worthwhileand let's discuss those things
upfront, because they're gonnagive us the foundations to
creating a wonderful.
Financial plan that encompassesall of the other things to do
with the retirement transition.
Yasmin Nguyen (09:03):
Wow.
for those who haven't gotten achance to experience your
brilliant content that's outthere, what would you say are
some of the common themes thatyou, you talk about?
Dan Haylett (09:15):
Yeah.
To be Yasmin, you mentioned, Ithink you know, it's, it's
interesting when.
People like us talk to eachother.
That sounds really bad.
People like us, like this newage, planners.
But I think there's a commonthread to this, right?
And it's a personal thread thatI found, and also been, ratified
by people like you that aredoing this as well.
And the things are.
Purpose, identity,relationships, time and spending
(09:38):
money.
we can add health into that
Yasmin Nguyen (09:41):
Okay.
Dan Haylett (09:41):
well.
But I think health kind of goesin there somewhere.
but they are the things that Ithink sit outside of a typical
I.
estate, cashflow, investmentportfolio type plan.
And yes, spending money isnothing to do with money, by the
way.
Like nothing.
(10:02):
maybe your income strategy is todo with spending, but actually
spending the thing that'semotional, behavioral when
everything, and maybe we can diginto that.
But yeah, they're the fivethings that I think everybody
needs to focus on, and there's apattern to those five things.
And if you don't, if one of themis outer kilter or not in
alignment, it's reallynoticeable.
(10:24):
Really noticeable for peoplethat I work with.
When that goes out with kilteror they have, or they come to
me, haven't worked on a coupleof them, you can really see how
that's playing on their mind andhow it may not be allowing them
to be free to enjoy their time.
Yasmin Nguyen (10:37):
Speaking of clients, how has the response
been?
for those who perhaps have beenalong around for a while with
more of a traditional financialplanning expectation, how has
this been introducing it to themas well as those who may be
coming in the door who'vealready experienced your.
Your content and know what toexpect.
I'm just curious what the rangeof, response has been from your
(10:59):
clients.
Dan Haylett (11:01):
Yeah, I suppose I've been pretty fortunate in
that I haven't really had thebaggage bit to deal with and I
know that's really tough for alot of people.
I think one of the big.
issues with many financialplanners adopting this, is that,
well, I've served these clientsfor so many years, I've now
gotta go back and tell them whatI've been doing is like not good
enough, or I'm, I dunno what,but like I've got this other
(11:23):
thing.
And so I've been reallyfortunate in that I've taken on
the vast majority of new clientsin this business.
I didn't really have that many,established clients.
work with.
So I've been able to go at thisfull on and not have to convince
people that there's been one ortwo.
and it's, there's been more thanone or two, but there's been a
(11:44):
few.
and again, the ones that I'vehad, I tried two things, right?
I tried the softly approach andit didn't work.
it just, it doesn't land.
When I've done it withpreexisting clients, I've just
gone hard in and gone and justbeen upfront like the, you've
done it this way.
we're doing it this way.
because, and I lead withchallenges, out of purpose and
(12:08):
identity and relationships andtime and spending money.
Can you name me some challengesthat you've had and when they
come back with these loads ofchallenges, it's oh, okay.
Do you get it now?
your financial plan has beengreat and robust, but you are
telling me that you're feeling abit lost.
You're telling me that you'renot really comfortable spending
that amount of money.
This is why we're gonna revisitthis to make sure that you know
(12:30):
that we can take advantage ofyour numbers,
Yasmin Nguyen (12:33):
Dan, have you noticed any common challenges
that keep resurfacing as you'vehad these conversations?
Dan Haylett (12:40):
yet spending money I, I want to work with people
that have a level of wealth,right?
and that's nothing, by the way,full disclosure, we charge fixed
fees.
our desire to deal with peoplewith wealth has nothing to do
with ripping a percentage feefrom their assets.
It's all to do with theirsituation, who I feel I can help
(13:02):
the best.
when I say wealth, they're not,this is not massive wealth, but
this is enough
Yasmin Nguyen (13:06):
Yeah.
Dan Haylett (13:07):
going, I know that I've got a level of wealth that
should see me okay, and I shouldbe able to enjoy it, but there's
enough challenges on the otherside to go, will it last and can
I really enjoy it?
And all of that stuff.
The, I think out of that, thebiggest challenge I see with
people is being able to releasetheir shackles, being able to,
(13:29):
get over everything that they'vebeen taught in their life about
saving money.
Everything that's been hardwiredinto them about the security of
having a pot of money behindthem, and then get them to
actually spend the thing down.
On the things that they love.
That is a real challenge.
And there is, I think a, thereis a chronic underspending
(13:49):
problem in retirement becausethere's so many unknowns that
cause fear that then causedoubt, that then cause other
questions and people just don'tspend enough money.
And they spend it.
They don't spend it at thedetriment of their joy and
happiness.
They've got so many things thatthey'd love to do, and these
aren't massive things, Yasmin,either, right?
These are not like cruisesaround the world.
(14:12):
This is, can I give mygrandchildren or children X, Y,
Z to help them?
And you're not talking hundredsof thousands.
You're talking.
10 grand, 20 grand.
can I, can we buy this new car?
Can we, these are, they're notmassive things, but they just
feel shackled to actually spendit so alien to people, to
decumulate to spend capital whenit's not coming back in and
(14:35):
having that safety net.
So the vast majority of people Iwork with, I think that's their.
That's their biggest challenge,But it's only the biggest
challenge by a fraction becauseI think the others are really
difficult too.
But that would be the one forme.
Yasmin Nguyen (14:55):
There's definitely a lot of challenges
for that particular challenge.
Dan, is there a particularapproach that you take to help
someone make that shift?
and is there a story of someonethat's had a breakthrough from
you helping them, be able toreally step into some joyful
spending?
Dan Haylett (15:12):
Yeah, there's several things.
I, it kind, it led me to write awhite paper.
So I've got the skill ofspending money, white paper.
which I'm sure we can add as adownload to the
Yasmin Nguyen (15:22):
Yeah.
Dan Haylett (15:23):
if anyone's interested, but, Yeah, I think,
as I said, I think spendingmoney's a skill, right?
So we need to learn the skilland there are a couple of things
that we can absolutely do tohelp ourselves learn this skill.
one of those is to understandsome truths, so cut through the
noise and understand sometruths.
And the great thing now is thismodern retirement that
(15:46):
everyone's going into hasprobably got 20 to 30 years
worth of data to supportspending patterns.
The truth is that people aren'tspending.
So if we show them this truth,right?
You, yeah, it's tough, but thisis the outcomes of what's going
on.
And saying that, by the way, onaverage people only spend about
(16:09):
30% of their starting netwealth.
They're leaving money on thetable.
14% of people on average aredrawing down capital.
Everyone else is either drawingdown the return of the
investment or less.
a and then about reframing thelanguage, asmi.
So what I try and say withpeople is, you are not leaving
money on the table.
(16:29):
You are leaving memories andexperiences on the table.
You are actually upping the.
potential of regret in yourlife.
That's what you are.
You're upping the potential ofregret and then you're leaving
memories and experiences on thetable.
Reframing these ways, in a muchmore mo reframing these subjects
in a mo much more emotive wayhas been the biggest game
(16:50):
changer for me.
When I talk about memories andexperiences, I also talk about,
we're not turning yourinvestments into income, we're
turning your money intomemories.
So forget this whole incomeplanning.
I talk about retirement memoryplanning.
So what memories do you wannacreate with your money?
Not, how much income can I,it's, that's an who knows,
(17:10):
right?
who knows, but.
What memories do you wanna make?
Who do you wanna make them withand how can we fund them?
think about the wonderfulconcept of memory dividends that
I talk to a lot of people about,made famous by a number of
people.
But Bill Perkins Die with Zerobook talks about this a lot,
this kind of concept thatspending your money or memories
gives you dividends for life,right?
(17:32):
You recall.
What you've done with friendsand family, and it brings you
joy and happiness in later life.
So I think it's really importantto reframe how we start thinking
about this, and thinking abouthow we spend our money and get
it out of money language, out offinancial language, and into.
Into real life, and that's beenpretty transformational for
(17:55):
people.
When we start talking, aboutthat, give our money meaning,
give it a name, it buckets.
Say, grandchildren's holiday,safari holiday, or Tom's college
fund or, 60th birthday cruise,right?
Money needs meaning if it'snumbers.
the one thing I did learnreally, which was
transformational, was wherenumbers and stories sit in our
brain.
(18:16):
numbers sit on the wrong side ofour brain.
They sit on the side of ourbrain that we don't quite
believe.
We challenge and we're veryskeptical of, and we're wary of.
So if we're constantly at thatside of our brain with our
retirement plans, I don't thinkwe're ever gonna fully let go.
We need to develop stories, weneed to develop ways to make,
give our money, meaning, andyeah, it's had a massive impact.
(18:38):
And actually, do you know what,it's really had an impact.
And there's a particular exampleand it's money and goods, which
I think is really interesting ina way that, They have absolutely
brought forward their spending.
and they read an article Iwrote.
good couple years ago, which wasentitled, giving Your Money Away
with a Warm Heart, not a coldhand.
(19:00):
And there were various differentversions of that particular
thing, but this kind of thingaround leaving your money to the
end to give to your kids.
again, I provide the researchand evidence, right?
The average age of someoneinherit in money's 57 or
something stupid like that.
56.
they're probably set, what dothey want it at that point for?
They really took on board thiskind of money, meaning,
(19:22):
memories, joy of giving, joy ofspending.
they went and brought a dog.
supported their family withhouse purchases and it all ended
up with them actually givingaway jewelry.
and she, the wife, the wifeactually had this piece of
really, sentimental jewelry thatwas her mom's.
(19:43):
And she was gonna, basically, itwas in her will to leave it to
her daughter, and they just gotin such a mindset of seeing joy
and happiness in giving andusing and doing all this stuff
that she said.
I actually give it to mydaughter now.
She said, I won't wear it.
My daughter loves it.
She'll wear it.
And they started crying andbreaking down in the office
about how just unlocking theshackles of.
(20:05):
This kind of like givingmentality this kind of joyful
mentality allowed them to seethis stuff while they were doing
it.
So my thing here is not alwaysabout the money, right?
This is unlocking what's reallyimportant to people and
understanding they can do thesethings now.
They don't have to wait untilsome date that they're never
gonna see or never see theimpact of what they're doing.
Yasmin Nguyen (20:27):
Wow.
I love that.
you're totally speaking mylanguage.
You said the word joy, like Manytimes.
And each time I'm like, yep, Iget it.
But, and it's, I think it'sbrilliant that you are
reframing, spending and money asthe vehicle for meaning for
memories.
And that in many ways that, thatmoney is like an agent of joy,
(20:50):
right?
Where you are helping themdiscover all these
possibilities.
And I imagine that's why.
Having, these deeperconversations with clients
reveal what some of theirunderlying desires, regrets, and
other areas in which you canmake that connection or that
dot, connect the dots to helpsupport them through the
financial piece I.
Dan Haylett (21:12):
Yeah, a absolutely.
And it's really interesting,right?
I think it's one of those thingswhere.
And this is just, this is a bitgut feel, but it's baked in a
little bit of real life thatI've had, but I think.
clients won't necessarily thankus the hard work and deep work
(21:33):
that we have to do they realizethe impact and that impact might
be a few years away.
So I've almost had conversationsalong the lines of, I get it
now, Dan, like that kind of twoyears down the line.
It's oh, I get why we talkedabout that, or I understand why
we, so I think, thing I will sayis that the thing I've learned
is I don't expect transformationafter one conversation.
(21:56):
I don't expect them to turnaround and go, oh, I get it now.
I'm a new person.
I've got new purpose.
It takes a while.
It's a journey for everybody.
But what I do know and what I doguarantee, for me anyway,
personally, is one day this willclick, there'll be a thing where
they'll be like, ah, get it.
I understand it.
and it's been built up.
I get why we've been havingthese conversations.
(22:16):
It's built up to this day, andnow I feel better to go and do
the thing.
and that's connecting the dotson the journey.
And I think that's why asfinancial planning
professionals, as.
Coaching professionals, aslifestyle planning
professionals.
this is about embracingourselves as guides, not
mechanics, right?
we have to be guides on ajourney and we have to walk life
(22:38):
with them on this journey andsupport them on it because it's
full of unknowns, right?
We have to be, we have toembrace uncertainty we need our
clients to embrace that, aswell.
and I think.
That's just a key element for meis to go, look, this is an
ongoing process full of unknownsand uncertainty, but I'm gonna
(22:59):
be here for you and we're gonnamake it as joyful and as
impactful, as po as possible.
along the way
Yasmin Nguyen (23:06):
Dan, how did you develop the confidence, the
experience, the insights to stepinto this role of a guide for
your clients?
Dan Haylett (23:16):
Yeah, it's a great question.
I think.
I think I've always, from a kid,Yasmin, I've had inbuilt
confidence that probably goesway beyond my knowledge and
experience.
So I think, I think I'm allright now, but I've always been
pretty confident and I've alwayshad a belief and I think
through, I had a really badperiod of my career, that lasted
(23:37):
for three or four years, butbefore that, I've al I've always
believed in my voice.
I've always believed in, myopinion.
I've always believed in myability to communicate and talk
to people.
And that's how I got to where Igot to.
And and I was pretty successfulin sport when I was a, when I
was a kid.
And, and I got there because ofmy communication skills and my
(23:58):
ability to influence, peoplealong the way.
and so I think.
it, the confidence comes from abit like, the iceberg analogy,
right?
people don't see the work youput in underneath this, right?
They see the podcastconversation for an hour.
They see the sketch, they seethe content, but that's been
developed over the last sevenyears.
(24:19):
I have done, I have read morebooks in the last six years than
I've read in my 45 years oflife, right?
I've read.
Book after book.
I've listened to podcast.
After podcast.
I've had conversation afterconversation late at night with
people, staying up to speak topeople in America, in Australia,
in South Africa, and think tojust.
(24:39):
Kind of get this understanding,constant reevaluation of
conversations I have withpeople.
and we talked about AI earlier,before we hit record.
But the ability to record theseconversations and analyze this
stuff now to see, what does thatmean and where did I quite go
wrong?
And, that learning growthmentality, I've always had that,
and I think it's just served mereally well.
(25:00):
But yeah, I think, people don'tnecessarily understand the kind
of the work that goes beneath.
To have that confidence that youneed to produce this stuff.
but it's, I think it's when youwalk life with clients, Yasmin,
you see it, right?
if I see more than one person gothrough something, I think
that's a pattern.
So I might as well talk aboutit, right?
If more than one person's doneit, I think we should, get that
(25:23):
conversation out there and do itwith confidence.
Otherwise, people won't believeyou.
Yasmin Nguyen (25:27):
Yeah, you've certainly made a significant
investment in yourself and yourpersonal growth and then that
provides the opportunity for youto be able to really make a
contribution.
I.
To, your clients, but also thegeneral, population as well
that's learning about this.
and you mentioned sketches.
I'd like to dive a little bitdeeper into this, brilliant
(25:47):
approach that you've used tohelp communicate some common
concepts that, that people arenavigating.
Can you share a little bit moreabout the ideas behind your
sketches and perhaps with, sharewith us maybe a couple of
sketches that, you foundextremely useful in
communicating with.
Clients and people.
Dan Haylett (26:05):
Yeah, this get, it happened by accident in, in
that, in, in my first, not myfirst meeting, but in my first
kind of, number of meetings thatI had, thinking about explaining
these concepts to, to peoplethat actually are bright.
And clever, but I thought werebright and cleverer than what
they were.
So you're explaining theseconcepts of people that and
(26:27):
what, just very quickly on thisone, I work with a lot of people
in asset management.
My background was in assetmanagement and a lot of my
friends and have become clientsand a lot of people that I've
never known have become clients.
These are people that work withmoney.
work yet.
They didn't seem to get it.
Like when it comes to their ownstuff like it, it's a bit like
(26:47):
a, I call it like a builder'shouse, right?
Quite often when you go around abuilder's house, it's not
complete.
It's not finished.
'cause they're working oneverybody else's houses.
And it's the same with peoplewith their personal finance.
I.
I'm explaining these, this stuffto people.
I'm explaining about longevity,I'm explaining about health
span, I'm explaining about,leaving memories on the table
and I'm explaining about how,retirement is more of a human
(27:11):
problem than it is a, a mathproblem and all of this stuff.
And they're nodding things.
And I'm like, look, it's likethis.
And you get the flip chart upand you just draw something and
then they go, oh yeah, no, I getthat.
And I'm like, oh.
So you didn't get the words, butyou get the picture.
and and then someone said to me,have you come across Carl
Richards?
I was like, no.
(27:31):
Who's Carl Richards?
I'd literally just started, so Ithen Read Carl's stuff, looked
at his sketches and thought,actually, this is a really
interesting way to communicate.
Googled other people.
So there's lots of people thatsketch in different industries
and professions, and as a way tocommunicate, reached out to
Carl, become, really goodfriends with him and have talked
to him a lot and then justdeveloped this.
(27:53):
I was like, actually, if there'sa concept that I think needs to
be explained more than once, I'mgonna sketch about it.
If I think I can make an impact,IE my sketches, I want to hit,
hit them between the eyes andgo, oh, really?
so yeah, that's where it's comefrom.
And now whenever my firstthought about content, whenever
I get an idea or a client sayssomething, my first thought is,
(28:14):
can I sketch that?
can I sketch it to give them.
Another way of consuming it.
And can I sketch it so I can getit out into the world?
That might cause some thoughtsaround how this topic is.
Yasmin Nguyen (28:27):
if you could, introduce one of them that maybe
you can describe, So maybe anexample then.
Dan Haylett (28:33):
Okay.
I think what the, there's,there's two that I'm gonna
quickly touch on.
One is healthspan versuslifespan.
this drawing basically has ablue line that says this is your
lifespan, and it then has a,like a red line that's going
from left back down to right andsaid, actually, look, you are,
you are gonna be healthy lessthan you're gonna be alive.
this concept of spending yourmoney whilst time and health is
(28:54):
on your side and not planningfor this kind of constant spend
throughout a hundred year lifegoing, you know the stats say in
the UK that healthy lifeexpectancy is 62 years old,
right?
So you might spend 10, 15 yearsof your life in.
In bad health.
In health, not necessarily, butin health, that is gonna prevent
(29:15):
you from doing things.
so we should take advantage ofthe fact that, and we should
know that your health span isgonna fall.
and then the main one for me,actually, one of the first ones
that I drew was I.
The go, no, go slow.
Go years or go, no go.
Go slow.
No go.
Years.
And I've changed that to likeexploring nesting and
reflecting, but it's theseblocks of spending, so it's
(29:37):
kinda actually you've got a 10year window of opportunity.
Block one and it should behigher.
And that's your go-go exploringyears.
You then drop down to yournesting slow, slowing down
years, and you drop down againinto your reflecting.
later life, no-go years.
(29:58):
And that's had a massive Im, Iknow that has been printed out
and stuck on people's fridges,et cetera.
It's had a big impact because itreally helps people start to
frame in their head actuallythat.
Retirement is one, isn't onegreat big timeframe.
It does go in different ways.
Time is different as we progressthrough, and we need to make
sure we take advantage of thosefirst blocks there, and it holds
(30:22):
people accountable to going, Ido it now?
Should I do it now?
Should I do it now?
so I, off the back of that, Icreated another sketch, this
kind of what are you waitingfor?
So it's this kind of net worthline that goes, keeps going up
and up, followed by a what areyou waiting for in a coffin at
the end, right?
It's what were you waiting for?
tomorrow a week.
at some point it's gonna end.
(30:43):
and It's just getting people towake up and do this.
So yeah, that's, it's been a bigthing for me and I'm thrilled
that some other advisors arereaching out and using these
sketches and et cetera.
'cause I think it's, it's agreat way to get some concept in
front of people and just start adifferent way of talking about
this.
Yasmin Nguyen (31:00):
What a powerful tool to communicate some of
these topics and, I'll make surethat we.
We post some links in the shownotes so that people can get a
chance to actually see thosesketches, that you've referenced
and the other sketches thatyou've put together.
Dan I'm curious, as you've hadthese deeper conversations with
clients about their lives, aboutjoy, about memories and re you
(31:21):
know, things that can reallybring fulfillment, how has that
impacted your business?
Dan Haylett (31:28):
Yeah, I like tremendously.
I think, pe people that workhere, Are, I think more engaged
in the process that you knowthat this is not just a business
that processes numbers.
This is a business that dealswith humans That kind of
transcends through everybody inthe business, whether you are
doing adminis tasks or you'redoing power planning work, or
(31:53):
you're crunching some numbers oryou're sitting in front of
clients.
dealing with humans and weshould always have a human first
approach to all of that workthat we're doing.
and so it's definitely madepeople.
about this very differently.
So it's had a tremendous impacton the business.
(32:15):
it's also had a tremendousimpact on the type of clients
that we work with.
it's, I can say hand on heartthat the Im, the impact that we
have with our clients.
compared to what it was when Ifirst joined, we were having an
impact then is so much moremeaningful, so much more
(32:38):
gratifying, and so much moreimpactful that it just energizes
everybody to go again and goagain.
yeah, it's had a, it is had amassive impact on the business.
and constantly want to grow thisright.
that what we're doing now andhow we're doing it.
In its infancy, right?
we're constantly looking andthinking, so the business
(33:00):
maintains its growth mindsetbased on the challenges that
we're trying to face.
It's not just a, doing adviceand standing still and
stagnating, which is quiteboring.
It's got the energy in it to beable to think about how we
develop this going forward.
Yasmin Nguyen (33:13):
I imagine with the impact that you're making
and the fulfillment you'regetting from the advisor side,
but also on the.
Client side, you're deepeningthe level of trust.
And I think that might even,lead into some potential
referrals or even, retainingclients too.
Dan Haylett (33:30):
Yeah, look, I, one thing that's really nice,
actually on that, that thereferral, is coming.
Really quickly.
So I think typically, and so wenever ask and we never actually
base our numbers on referrals,right?
any new client targets that wewanna make in the business has a
zero referral thing, right?
(33:50):
It like.
should never ask or expect anyof our clients to do our work
for us.
That's a big thing for me.
I base all of the work I do ongetting new clients coming to us
because they've searched us outor seen us, but we do get a
really decent amount ofreferrals because we just
concentrate on the client withno agenda.
Let's just concentrate on them.
This is not a by the way, weneed to wow our clients, so they
(34:11):
give us two of their mates.
That's.
You're never gonna get it rightif you do it that way.
but one thing I have absolutelynoticed over the last three or
four years is that I'm getting alot more referrals after one
conversation.
Like the, you're not having todo the whole journey, deliver
advice, and then go, oh, thishas been great.
You are having one conversation.
(34:34):
Where you are talking aboutmaybe two, you're talking about
them.
I get people to stand up andwrite stuff on a flip chart.
I get people to, really startcom opening up and thinking
about it.
I get couples to talk prettyearly on, really impactful,
upfront conversations, and I getreferral they're like, oh, like
I'm, friend needs to come seeyou.
(34:55):
Like they need this, So that'sbeen massively impactful.
it's not, it's very much thatfirst experience they get and
again, that all the sciencearound human beings is baked
into that, right?
The first experience and thelast experience is the things
that we remember.
The things in the middle are alittle bit, don't really know
what's going on, because I'mtrying to deliver huge amounts
of value upfront and focus onthem, seems like they're going,
(35:19):
this is a, this is unbelievabletransformation.
transformative after oneconversation, and then referrals
are coming quicker.
Yasmin Nguyen (35:25):
Dan, with all this potential upside, I'm
curious, where do you see thestate of the industry as it
relates to the adoption of moreof the holistic non-financial
planning aspects?
Dan Haylett (35:39):
Yeah, I, look, I think it is, I think it's binary
in the, in the uk There is a, anaging.
Advisor workforce.
I think the average age of anadvisor is in its sixties.
in their sixties, I should say.
and got, they've built reallycushy businesses.
(36:01):
They've built businesses that,that they don't wanna disrupt.
they know it's not being doneright.
They know that, this kind oflike hardly any service for a
big whacking, great percentagefee is amazing for them.
Not great for the client, butthey don't wanna rock the boat
'cause they're five years awayfrom exiting the whole thing.
So I think there's, and whilstthat bias towards that group of
(36:23):
people exists, I think it'sgonna be a slow burn.
But on the other end of thescale, and this isn't
necessarily an age thing, you'vejust got new people entering the
profession that are grabbingthis earlier on, which I love to
see.
they understand that this is theway and the only way to deliver
it.
this isn't a balanced approachbetween financial advice, life
(36:45):
planning, and coaching.
This is an integrated, blendedapproach that you need to
deliver.
This all.
Now, you might wanna employ oroutsource specific retirement
coaching elements or that, butyou need the whole thing under
your roof.
You need the whole capability.
and that's where I see the mostinteresting transition
(37:06):
happening.
People are doing this from theword go and developing amazing,
wonderful businesses, but whilstthe bulk of clients and stuff
sits up here.
They're just not gonna change.
And gut instinct and a littlebit of my fear says clients
might need to change hands oneor two times to get the
experience they deserve.
There's huge amounts ofconsolidation going on by these
(37:28):
big consolidators that are notreally delivering this either.
They're paying lip service'causeit sounds like marketing.
and they're getting swallowedup.
I think it might be whereclients then go, actually.
This thing over here.
So that's why I'm so passionateabout getting the message out
there.
I, I don't, I can't work witheverybody in a one-to-one basis.
(37:50):
If I can impact hundreds,thousands of people where they
actually sit up, take note andgo, I need to speak to someone
like Dan that lives near me orspeak that's brilliant.
them to get out of where theyare and into a place that's
delivering this stuff.
So adoption up here, over here,but limited amount of people
adopting it, I think will onlygrow, might grow at a slower
(38:12):
pace than we all want until thedinosaurs exit.
Yasmin Nguyen (38:15):
Yeah.
What do you see as, the barriersor what gets in the way of
advisors really embracing thisapproach and what's missing in
order for them to reallyincorporate this?
Dan Haylett (38:28):
Yeah, again, I think, I've got lots of friends.
the pond.
and I think the CFP curriculumis embracing retirement or
retire like coaching andbehavioral finance.
it a lot more, I think there'swhole dedicated syllabuses and
chapters to this.
So I welcome this right in herein the uk.
Like it's still a very liketextbook driven, numbers led
(38:52):
transactional advice ledqualification, right?
So in order to become afinancial advisor.
over here there are threeroutes, excuse me, that you go
down none of those routes reallyintegrate any type of coaching,
communication behavioral advice.
and you have to kinda go searchthat out yourself.
(39:14):
So you really need to wanna doit.
to go search it out.
I think the true transitioncomes and transformation comes
when it's forced upon people tohave this as part of their
skillset.
Yasmin Nguyen (39:24):
Yeah.
I see.
Hey, I remember in our previousconversation you said something
that really, caught my attentionand you, I believe you said
something that the minute that afinancial plan is created that
it's wrong or something likethat.
can you like elaborate on thatcomment?
Dan Haylett (39:41):
think it comes back to this, this embrace
uncertainty thing that I said, afinancial plan is trying to
predict the future.
I.
I dunno about you, but I'mactually pretty rubbish at that.
I've never been able to get itright.
and I think that's one of thebig things I see is where I
(40:01):
start working with clientswho've worked with a financial
advisor or planner before andthey've developed a plan and the
language they come and use withus is language of certainty,
right?
It's kinda this investmentreturn is built in.
And not gonna get that.
Oh, aren't I right?
No.
the, so a financial plan is asnapshot in time that is wrong.
(40:24):
The moment the client leaves theoffice, because it is full of
future assumptions that are sochallenging to get anywhere near
right.
Inflation, investment returns,longevity, health span, keep
naming it, spending.
Children, grandchildren, houserepairs, car breaking down.
just keep, just keep going.
(40:44):
There's, so it's a, it's a bigpicture tool that allows us to
create a sense of direction.
But it is not certainty.
the more truthful we are withthe people we sit in front of,
the better equipped they will beto deal with uncertainty when it
comes their way.
'cause there is one guaranteeand the guarantee that is, that
(41:05):
something will hit you in theface that you don't know has
been coming.
and so we need to make sure thatthey're prepared for those
moments.
and.
That's I say it.
It's yeah.
We could have the best financialplan.
We could talk about your, whatyou want to do.
I'll give you a quick example.
wonderful couple.
(41:25):
They had a really greatretirement plan in terms of what
they were gonna do with theirtime.
I.
were, key members of an amateursoccer club over here, a good
amateur, like asemi-professional type soccer
club.
And they were on the board andthey were high up, and they
were, that was their, theywanted to get more involved with
(41:46):
local soccer and give back tothe community.
Very quickly that turned roundbecause the whole football club
got sold and got and they werelike, oh my God.
what's happened now?
our, all of our time was gonnabe based on giving back and
running kids soccer and doingall of this stuff, and they
both, the couple loved it.
They both loved it.
(42:08):
They had to like, they werelike, what's going on here now?
They have since pivoted.
They breed Irish Wolf Hounds.
Now they had three Irish WolfHounds.
They, so like everything changedwithin, and that happened six
weeks after he retired.
I.
So the whole thing about theirtime, it just like this
financial plan about how whatthey were spending their money
(42:28):
on had to basically becompletely torn up and started
again within six weeks of itbeing created.
there is no certainty.
Yasmin Nguyen (42:36):
yeah.
It's, the plan is a snapshot asto what is, and it's a
projection of what could be.
But the reality is that lifeand, changes and we experience
so many different things, and asa guide with your clients,
that's why it's important to beable to understand what else is
going on in their lives in orderto make some of those
adjustments for them.
Dan Haylett (42:56):
Yeah, and that's why I love talking about
purpose, identity, relationshipsand that stuff because although
they might change, if we'regonna give ourselves like
statements of guide guidance,like this kind of what is my
purpose?
Who am I?
These things have more longevityto them than.
Financial projections ornumbers.
And if you've got those guidingstatements and those guiding
(43:18):
principles, then you cannavigate the numbers to suit in
with who you are, what you wantto do, who's in your social
circles, how you wanna spendyour time, and who you wanna
spend it with.
They can be pretty consistent.
They can give you thefoundations to a really
meaningful retirement.
You might just have to adapt theway you fund it and the way you
experience it, depending on whatgoes on.
Yasmin Nguyen (43:41):
Yeah.
Dan, for an advisor who isintrigued by this conversation,
who's looking to incorporatemore, life planning,
non-financial aspects of thisconversation with their clients,
what advice would you give them?
I.
Dan Haylett (43:55):
be curious.
Be open.
Have a growth mindset.
Google, speak to people likeyou.
Bob Lara's, retirement CoachesAssociation, George Kinder's.
wonderful work on his, lifeplanning, registered life
planner designation, searchpeople out, talk to them, read
(44:15):
about this stuff.
You've wrote a wonderful book.
There's many books you knowabout this and be open and
curious to learn and don't beafraid because what I will say
is.
I can't guarantee much, I do tryand guarantee is that this is
what clients need.
This is what the public need,and they are absolutely coming
(44:38):
round to the fact that they needthis.
there are people sitting infront of me because I do what I
do, and because I'm not just anumber crunching financial
advisor.
So don't be afraid.
Put yourself out there.
Be bold and be brave.
Yasmin Nguyen (44:51):
So it's great tips.
Dan, what's next for you in thisspace?
Any upcoming projects,innovations, things that you're
excited about?
Dan Haylett (44:59):
too many.
The brain swells my, my, mynotes section on my iPhone.
I think if someone saw that,Yasmin, I'll be sectioned.
I mean it, look,
Yasmin Nguyen (45:07):
I.
Dan Haylett (45:07):
wild and chaotic.
yeah, so I'm trying to actually,I.
I feel like I'm, I embrace allthe work.
I'm embracing all the work thatI've done.
So hone in on the sketches, honein on the podcast, and think
about now I.
Instead of doing more, thinkabout taking what I've got and
(45:30):
how can I get that in morehands.
That's now my, I think there'senough content to last my
lifetime right now.
I've got ideas about more, but Ithink what I'm gonna do is find
ways to get it out there.
hence one of the things I'vedone was the sketch store, and
I've got a physical hard copysketchbook that, that I've been
hum, humbled enough that peoplehave started to buy and use in
(45:53):
their client meetings.
I'm thinking about ways to tryand help people develop
sketching as a communicationtool.
how can we do that?
and then really getting thepodcast out into, in, into more
ears thinking about putting thisall together in a way to present
(46:13):
this, all these frameworks andsketches and ideas that I've
had, how can I condense thatdown in, into something
meaningful to deliver to boththe public and advisors.
That has the biggest impact andhow can they take that forward?
you've been very gracious toshare a couple of wonderful
ideas with me that you've had.
So sometimes it's nice to hearother people's opinion.
I'm so in this, I forget whatthat might be sometimes.
(46:36):
yeah, I think, I think a seriesaround the sketches, and how to
use them to communicate,particular concepts with clients
is something that I'm definitelythinking about over the next few
months.
Yasmin Nguyen (46:46):
that's so exciting.
You've got so many innovativeand creative and impactful,
things that's happening here.
You mentioned podcasts.
Can you share with us a littlebit about your humans versus
retirement podcasts and what'sthe focus on that particular
program?
I.
Dan Haylett (47:00):
Yeah.
the, what started off just overtwo years ago as something, as a
passion project I had, I calledin the favor of six.
I.
Reasonably close friends whowere also pretty decent names,
but I thought I'd make it to sixand that would, I'd have six
wonderful conversations.
I'd have some content to deliversome client to, to clients.
(47:22):
I'd learn a bit and then fastforward two years, I'm now
episode 78 and a hundredthousand downloads.
it's just gathered itself somepace in it.
And really what I wanted to dowas having an environment to
speak to amazing people, doingamazing work through different,
avenues of kind of professionand get these conversations out
(47:45):
there because I don't thinkenough conversations were being
had, And in a way that can beconsumed.
I'd done some research and itwas like, there's more people
listening to podcasts and not asmany people reading blogs and
people are more open tolistening to stuff on train
journeys and car journeys.
I'm a feet first kind of guy andI thought, you know what, let's
(48:05):
just hit record and see where itgoes.
And Yeah, it is tackling allthose issues.
It's tackling, I've had a sleepexpert on, I've had people that
specialize in fitness for overfifties.
I've had behavioral financepeople, economists, coaches.
I've had real clients on there.
I've had three amazing episodeswith clients that have been,
(48:27):
just sharing their story, whichI, that's probably, I've had the
biggest, feedback from, and,yeah.
it's just an avenue, selfishly,it's an avenue for me to learn
from amazing people.
And then it just so happens thatit's in the big, wide world and
people are listening to it andit's having an impact on them.
yeah, it's been a wonderfulcouple of years.
Yasmin Nguyen (48:46):
Wow.
So in addition to your podcast,where can our listeners connect
with you and also learn moreabout your work?
Dan Haylett (48:54):
Yeah, so LinkedIn is the main place I come off,
Twitter, stroke X at some pointthis year because it was like,
mentally doing me in.
So I was like, I'm not on thereanymore.
so LinkedIn is the main place,humans versus retirement
website, humans vsretirement.com.
that's where.
You can have a look at,everything, my newsletter.
So I do a weekly newsletter,which I'm delighted to say I'm
(49:17):
now on edition 50, so I'vealmost been doing it for a year.
I've had a few weeks off, but,every now and again.
where I try and share somepretty, I try and share an
exclusive thought.
So just, keep something back forpeople that are really
appreciating, the work.
and then, yeah, the podcast isavailable on all players and I'm
(49:38):
on YouTube doing some video aswell.
yeah, search, search it all out,connect up, reach out.
I'm so open to having one-to-oneconversations with anybody that
feels they'd like deeperconversation about how I do it,
what I do, and if they feel likethey can learn anything from me,
I'd be, hugely open to speakingto anybody and helping them out
on their journey.
Yasmin Nguyen (49:58):
that's how we connected was you shared this
brilliant, sketch and Icommented, and next thing you
know, we were on, a calltogether.
I'll be sure to make sure, thatwe, list all those different
ways to connect with you in theshow notes as well, so that.
That, people can, reach out toyou.
Dan, any final thoughts afterthis?
Just really thought provokingconversation.
Dan Haylett (50:19):
yeah.
Look again, For any members ofthe public that, are listening,
I would have a as much of a Foryour purpose and your identity
and your relationships and yourtime as much as you have a plan
for your, investments.
and don't underestimate the workthat you have to do.
(50:42):
you are.
You are having to unwindpotentially 20, 30 years of
experiences and behaviors to dosomething new.
This is a big transition andpeople write about it and talk
about it for a reason.
'cause it's a hugely a motivetransition.
so be prepared to put some workin and you will be handsomely
(51:03):
rewarded for that work that youdo put in.
and similarly for any advisorslistening, the real impact lies
in this work.
I've done both.
The real impact lies in thiswork.
Be brave, be bold, be curious.
it.
Your clients will thank you forit.
and there is so many people thatare doing this work that really
(51:24):
want to help other people learnand grow from this'cause we
understand how much, impact thatit has.
yeah, don't be afraid of it andembrace it.
Yasmin Nguyen (51:32):
Dan, I thank you for it.
I thank you for all the wisdom,all the, valuable insights, the
care, everything that you'redoing.
you're really paving a path formany others and modeling this
for I think what could beextraordinarily meaningful way
to make a difference in people'slives.
So thank you so much for sharingthat and also being here with,
me today.
Dan Haylett (51:52):
It is been a pleasure, Yasmin, I'm right back
at you as well, yeah, can't waitto carry on our conversations
and thank you for having me on.
Yasmin Nguyen (51:58):
Thank you for taking the time to join us
today.
If you enjoyed this episode orfound it valuable, please
subscribe, follow and leave acomment or view on your favorite
platform.
If you have friends, clients, orloved ones who are retired or
thinking about retirement, weinvite you to share this show
with them.
Check out this show notes withlinks to resources mentioned in
(52:19):
thisepisode@realretirementshow.com.
Remember, retirement is a joyfuljourney we get to experience
together.
Join us next week for anotherreal retirement conversation.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.