June 18, 2025 • 30 mins
What happens when two financial planners who've experienced profound personal loss meet? They forge a friendship that transforms both their personal healing journeys and professional approaches to helping others through grief.
In this vulnerable and insightful conversation, host Chris Dale welcomes fellow financial planner Daniel Kopp, MA, MS, CFP®,MQFP® to share his remarkable journey from Air Force officer to specialist financial planner for widows and widowers. After becoming the primary caregiver for his first wife Sarah during her illness and eventual passing, Daniel navigated his own grief journey while completely rethinking his career path.
Daniel reveals how his experiences shaped his unique perspective on financial planning, particularly around risk management and healthcare costs. "Having gone through this personal experience and seeing what it would look like when I had to step away...what if I hadn't had the capacity financially? That could have been ruinous," Daniel explains, highlighting how personal tragedy fundamentally altered his professional outlook.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn as Daniel discusses his current work combining financial planning with financial therapy techniques. He's developing specialized interventions for grieving individuals who suddenly become their household's financial decision-maker while struggling with emotions like money avoidance. This innovative approach addresses both the practical financial challenges and the emotional barriers that can prevent effective financial management during grief.
Perhaps most powerful is the friendship that has developed between these two advisors who found each other through shared experience. They serve as accountability partners, offering candid feedback as they navigate both personal healing and professional growth. Their relationship demonstrates how grief, while isolating in many ways, can forge meaningful connections that enhance both life and work.
If you're navigating grief yourself or supporting someone who is, this conversation offers valuable insights into building resilience, finding purpose after loss, and creating the foundations that help weather life's most challenging storms. Connect with Daniel at wisestewardshipfp.com to learn more about his work with widows and widowers.
Did you know you can now Help Us Continue Making Awesome Content for Listeners Affected by Grief!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Real Talk with Life After Grief Chris,
where we talk about relevantissues as it relates to
individuals in grief as theynavigate finances and the
advisors who help them.
We help clients in griefnavigate financial matters.
We also teach advisors how toemotionally and financially work
with clients in grief throughan unparalleled process.
This week's episode issponsored by Life After Grief
(00:24):
Financial Planning and LifeAfter Grief Consulting.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of Real Talk with Life
After Grief Chris.
In today's episode we have aspecial guest.
We are interviewing fellow LifeAfter Griever, daniel Kopp.
Daniel is a good buddy of mineand he is a fellow griever and a
(00:46):
financial planner with his ownpractice.
His practice is called WiseStewardship Financial Planning
and his practice focuses onhelping widows and widowers
across the US with financialplanning and advice.
Daniel, welcome to the episode,buddy.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Chris, I'm really excited to be here and share in
this mission of yours to changethe conversation about grief,
make it more accessible andhopefully what I share will be a
help to your listeners.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
And, if the truth be told, so in our relationship.
We're going to go into somebackground about Daniel and how
we both met, but my knowingDaniel and understanding his
journey through grief reallyhelped me in all facets and my
journey through grief and mylearning about others through
(01:35):
grief and ultimately helpingother people.
Daniel, I'm going to put a lotof stuff on you today, my friend
, of course, how did you stalk?
I mean, how did we meet?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Google.
So I was in the middle of thebeginnings of my grief journey
after my wife, sarah, had passedaway, and I was interested at
the time in exploring the careerchange.
So I was active duty Air Forceofficer, I had begun the CFP
coursework.
I was thinking about launchingor joining another financial
(02:09):
planning firm.
Somehow I stumbled across youand I was like, wow, there's
this guy out there who isworking with people in this
space.
Obviously, I was firstconnected with you because of
your personal story and whatyour grief journey had been like
and so, as a result of that,reached out, and then also,
obviously, your career journeyas a fellow financial planner,
(02:31):
and so I remember we had like aninitial conversation back
probably in late 2017, where youjust kind of shared about what
your journey has been like andbeen a big help to me since then
and paving the way, showing apath forward.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Yeah, I paved the way , I like to say I was tripping
and falling along the way, so Idon't know if paved it, but I
was stumbling through it at best.
Well, it's been a helpregardless.
Well, it's my pleasure.
Tell us about yourself and youmentioned a few things, but tell
us more broadly about yourselfand why you are a few things,
(03:04):
but tell us more broadly aboutyourself and why you are a life
after griever, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yes, if I back up a little bit, so I spent my first
part of my career after collegeas an officer on active duty in
the Air Force, but my first lovewas always personal finance.
I didn't know that there was anopportunity to work with people
one-on-one in a financialplanning role, as opposed to
like a product sales or thingslike that.
(03:29):
So that's what I did.
I was an officer, but in myspare time, my free time, I was
doing a lot of personal finance,counseling, teaching classes,
things like that.
Ultimately, that led to mestarting a blog and then somehow
stumbled across this wholething called fee-only financial
planning.
The journey began from there.
At the time, my wife Sarah hadstarted developing some
(03:51):
illnesses and things thatrequired ongoing care, such that
I became her full-timecaregiver while I was still in
active duty and ultimately cameto the realization that a career
and the requirements ofdeployments and TDYs and just
the busyness of active duty andbeing a full-time caregiver just
could not ultimately sync up inthe long term.
So I started making plans for acareer transition.
(04:14):
Like I said, I'd started thecertified financial planner
coursework and it was justexploring opportunities in this
space.
Middle 2017, her healthprogressed such that she was
going to be moving into hospice,and we spent the last six weeks
together just enjoying timetogether with family, and
ultimately part of that was somedeep conversation about what
(04:35):
she wanted next for my futureand continue on this journey
that I had started with wantingto help people with money.
I had no idea what that wasgoing to look like at the time
and ultimately got out of activeduty in February of 2018, about
five six months after Sarah hadpassed away.
Then that gave me time to rest,to heal, to think.
I ultimately took a sabbaticalabout eight months off, lived in
(04:58):
an RV and traveled across 37states, spent time with friends
and family and things like thatthat I hadn't been able to see
much in my active duty militarycareer.
And then somethingextraordinary happened that God
brought into my life.
I met Anna on those journey anda relationship developed and
ultimately went up gettingengaged and then married at the
(05:18):
end of 2018.
I moved to join her where shewas at in Boston and launched
Wise Stewardship FinancialPlanning around that same time,
incorporating now both thepersonal elements of my grief
journey with professionalexpertise on the financial
planning side.
So that's where I'm at today.
(05:41):
Now, my goal's right now atKansas State University in their
advanced financial planning andfinancial therapy program,
where I'm learning to exploremore of the past money story as
it relates to grief,specifically working with widows
who struggle with this moneyavoidance challenge or belief
(06:05):
that money is bad or they don'twant to have anything to deal
with it.
So working to help my clientsfirst, but also advance the
profession through academicresearch, and I'm excited to be
here and share on any or all ofpart of that journey.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
So something that I've learned early in my career
is I align myself with peoplethat are smarter than me.
So Daniel said a lot of stuffin regards to and I like to
bring humor.
So Daniel's very well-educated,as you can hear and you can
listen to his journey in regardsto the thought process and his
(06:40):
journey through grief and someof the things that he's done
methodically, and he became acertified financial planner.
He left that out.
I'm going to interject that,which is a very hard element to
obtain, and I'm going to sayit's even harder when you're in
the throes of grief.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Getting that, yeah, I didn't mention that, but I did
have to take like about an 18month break in there.
Brain fog was such a realchallenge.
So I'd started the courseworkin 2016, 2017, but I ultimately
did not finish that until late2018, early 2019.
It just I could not studyenough.
So I yes, definitelyrecognizing that brain fog.
(07:20):
I personally went through that.
It was a very hard challenge.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
And I also went through the brain fog that
Daniel mentioned as well.
I chose to try to power throughit, which didn't really work so
well in my favor.
I eventually did get my CFPdesignation, as you're all very
well aware of.
It wasn't without some stumbles, though.
So, like I said, I like toalign myself with people that
(07:44):
are smarter than me, and Danielis one of those folks.
That is a pretty smart, prettysmart guy.
And, daniel, you talked aboutyour journey, and you and I are
both very spiritual people, andI think that is also connected
us as well outside of.
You know our relationship withgrief.
(08:05):
Yes, can you just explain fromwhere you came from and where
you are now spiritually?
You know how you've gotten tothis place, because in my
situation, it was either a do ordie.
It was either I am going to notgo on any longer because I've
(08:26):
had so much happen in my life,or I'm going to find a way to be
able to bring myself back up,and it was through other people
and through the grace of God andthrough my belief in God as
well.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Yeah, that is an interesting way to put it in
mirrors deeper or out.
Going through the health trialsat the beginning was certainly
probably the biggest challengeto the faith.
By the time that hospice camearound, I was at the point where
I had realized I had zerocontrol of anything in the
(09:01):
situation, and for me that was aplace of dependence and
humility that ultimately allowedthe floodgates of grace and
mercy to come in ever me down,such that when I was there,
struggling all alone, now that'swhen I realized for me,
spiritually, god's grace wasmore than sufficient.
(09:22):
And, as you said, other peoplecame alongside.
And, as you said, other peoplecame alongside and that's what
the Apostle Paul talks about in2 Corinthians 4 and 5, like the
(09:45):
comfort with which we have beencomforted, now able to come and
help other people.
So there were those people,those people who rallied around
me, strengthening, encouragingme, pointing me to truth, not
abandoning me when I was at myworst in that journey, something
that I will always, always bethankful for.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Well, as I am thankful for your friendship, my
friend.
You have helped me through sometrials and tribulations, and we
all go through some trials andtribulations.
Even after your throws throughgrief, you've had others and my
deep throws that are publiclyknown through grief.
I've had other trials andtribulations and we continue to
march on and lay a foundationfor other people.
So I'm very thankful for youbeing in my life.
So I appreciate what you havebrought to my life.
(10:33):
And Daniel and I recently hadbreakfast and I rarely have an
opportunity where I can justblab ad nauseum, and so usually
I'm on the listening end ofother people because they want
to feel comfortable, they wantto feel very comfortable and
they want the situation to feelnormalized, and that's what I'm
(10:55):
here to do.
But there are times where I needto just blab and, you know,
just talk about whatever is onmy mind, and Daniel gave me that
opportunity to do that andthat's from his wisdom as well,
and I think he kind of sensedthat I needed that and he got a
chance to say a lot as wellduring the conversation we
caught up.
It was a very, very good time.
(11:15):
He was taking a pre-vacation.
I won't go into too much detail, but he was here locally in the
Orlando area and so we got achance to catch up, so I was
very appreciative of that.
And, daniel, I want tounderstand what our relationship
has really done for you interms of where you know when you
(11:38):
stalked me, I mean where wefirst met, and you know where we
are now.
You know collectively.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Deep question, good question.
So one realizing the language,that which you used I had not
seen other professionals dooutside of my grief counselor or
people in the, you know,pastoral ministry or things like
that who talked as openly asthey did about their grief
(12:06):
journey.
So for me, chris, I mean thatwas one of the biggest lessons
learned, inspiration points,where you used your story first
and foremost to show people thatgrief is an ongoing journey,
like this whole idea of there islife after grief, you know, and
it's different and it's hard,and grief is a lifelong journey.
(12:26):
You don't ever leave it behind.
Your life grows and evolves andchanges around it.
But for me that was probably oneof the biggest things because I
hadn't seen, certainlyprofessionals in the financial
planning space talking aboutthat, but even just in general,
outside of you know, the griefspace.
So just normalizing, we as aculture in America, in the
Western world, generallystruggle to talk about hard
(12:48):
things like death and loss andgrief.
So learning and watching fromyou and then, as your
professional journey went alongas well, realizing that that is
an opening now and I have anability to help clients and
people who are in grief but alsoto point to other professionals
and be an example in thisfinancial planning space of what
(13:11):
can be done around helpingpeople in that space.
Those are the first two thingsthat come immediately to mind.
We can take it from there.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Okay, and I appreciate the candor, I'm going
to take a step back, because weare financial planning
professionals and one of thethings we kind of glossed over
there's the financial impact oftaking care of a spouse, and it
is a dramatic financial impactwhich can slow down grief
(13:39):
because it can sideline you,because you have to worry about
the other aspect of finances.
And I want to just touch on thefacts and ask you some
questions about what was thefinancial implication to you
when you were taking care ofyour spouse as a caregiver it
was more emotional, mental,physical than it was financial.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
At that time I was the only one earning income, so
it wasn't like we had a loss ofincome.
I know that's the case withmany people in the caregiving
situation and credit to the AirForce leadership that I had that
in the time period when Ineeded extra time to do those
caregiver roles, they gave it tome and it did not impact my pay
(14:23):
.
I mean incredibly blessed tohave TRICARE coverage during
that timeframe, which wasextraordinarily financially
helpful At one point.
I estimate over the last twoyears of care they probably
spent almost $1.2, $1.3 millionon her care that we didn't have
to pay other than small co-payslike literally just a lifesaver
(14:44):
financially in that.
However, when I was getting outand walking away from that
TRICARE benefit, that made merealize so much more as I look
to the new family situation likehow do I evaluate that?
So a comprehensive, holisticfinancial plan wants to look at
the risks that are out therewith how much out-of-pocket
costs other health insurance,disability insurance we don't
(15:04):
talk about that enough in thisspace, sometimes about loss of
income but still needing carealong those lines and then
ultimately, for those later onin their life long-term care.
So it changed my perspectivearound risk dramatically and
Morgan Housel, one of the bestcreative writers in this
financial space.
He talks about this idea thatrisk is what you don't see.
(15:26):
And having gone through thispersonal experience and seeing
what it would look like when Ihad to step away and fortunately
I had the capacity financiallyat that point in time, but what
if I hadn't?
That could have been ruinous.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Not just the enormous stress that it was mentally,
emotionally, physically and youbrought up a good point in
regards to risk of what clientspotentially excuse me don't see,
and that's how we're supposedto advise them in regards to
protecting them.
And there are many things basedon your experience and or my
(16:01):
experience that we can see aheadfor clients and we can advise
them and say I've been throughthis or I've seen other clients
go through this.
This is not a risk that youshould take on.
This is a risk that you shouldput on to someone else, meaning
paying an insurance provider totake on that risk.
(16:22):
So that's a very, very goodpoint to bring up.
Something else that you hadbrought up in regards to our
relationship.
One of the things that you saidthat you had learned from me was
being open and candid and howto talk about this monster that
you call grief, and I'm verycomfortable with talking about
(16:44):
it as you are and one of thethings that I did a couple of
years ago is I developed thiscourse, the Advisor's Guide for
Grieving Clients, and I hadasked Daniel to take the course
and give me some candid feedback, and he, along with a couple of
other folks that are in mytight circle, gave me some very
(17:05):
candid feedback, and Daniel saidthat he's learned some things
from me, and I've learned awhole heck of a lot of things
from him.
But, daniel, I want tounderstand, you know, some of
the things that the course, whatmy course, has done for you and
your practice.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yeah, yeah, and I'm grateful that you gave me the
opportunity to take it early onin the practice, because again
there's this idea of personalexperience is not enough to
translate into success, and sowhat you were able to bring was
a little bit more disciplinedthought pattern and approach to
working.
The biggest thing that stood outto me going through your course
(17:40):
was understanding how thedifferent styles of grieving
interplay with differentcommunication patterns, and this
goes back to what I was justsaying.
Like, you can only know your ownpersonal grieving style.
For those who've gone thisjourney or watch other people,
right, you're seeing theirperspective or your own and
recognize that there are manydifferent ways that grief can be
(18:02):
expressed and then way peoplewant to be communicated through
in grief.
So, early on, just beingunderstanding of the different
styles of people that I would beworking with, how they wanted
to be communicated with, andthen, as they went through their
various stages of the changecycle in understanding where and
which interventions are needed,to say, like, be the
(18:24):
encouraging ear, just thelistening ear At the same time,
like the person who can comeinto that inner circle of a
griever who still I meansometimes decisions have to be
made, whether it's financial orotherwise and be an
accountability partner for them.
That says we've had these deepconversations.
I know you, here's your values.
(18:45):
Let's move towards that.
Let's make a decision here.
So combining those kinds ofaspects were some of the things
that walked away with in myfinancial planning practice, and
then personally as well.
I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
And the feedback that you gave me early on and
continue to give me isinvaluable.
There are some times where Icheck in with Daniel and we are
involved in a few organizationstogether and I check in with
Daniel if he is on the otherside, kind of witnessing what
I'm doing or looking at me, andI check in with him.
(19:19):
I say, hey, daniel, am Italking too much?
Am I doing a little bit toomuch?
And he's very candid and thereare times that I need that.
Obviously, wives do a good jobof doing that.
My wife does that for me, but Iknow well enough that I do need
to check in with other peopleto keep me honest and to keep me
humble, and he does that for meand I really appreciate that
(19:41):
aspect of our relationship.
Daniel, what's on the horizonfor you, you know, into 2022?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah, some exciting things I alluded to earlier.
So, as I've finished out someof my academic training in this
world of financial therapy,bringing it into and alongside
the track of financial planning.
So financial therapy for thosewho may have never heard of it
is basically the study, theinteraction with the emotions
(20:11):
from our past around money,today and into the future.
For a very, very, very, verylong time, the world of mental
health practitioners didn't talkabout money, and in the world
of financial planning orfinancial advice we didn't talk
about feelings or emotions,right when it was very present
and future oriented.
We don't go to the past.
As a financial therapist, I amnot going to be licensed in the
(20:35):
sense that I'm diagnosing orprescribing, instead acting as a
guided facilitator, aconversational partner, a
thinking partner to go throughthis, to use some specific
therapeutic interventions thatcome from the world of mental
health.
Some of them might be familiar,like cognitive behavioral
therapy or solution-focusedtherapy, acceptance and
(20:56):
commitment therapy things thathave worked, that have been
proven to work in the world ofmental health.
But now we're going tospecifically apply them to the
realm of money.
I mentioned the term moneyavoidance beforehand, so that's
probably my biggest focus now isdeveloping some therapeutic
interventions around helpingpeople, specifically those in
grief, who suddenly have to stepinto this role of the household
(21:20):
chief financial officer.
Work through grief at the sametime that they're working
through everything is new anddifferent and hard as they
become the primary householdmanager around finances.
So traditional financialplanning can address things like
how much life insurance andwhat you invest in and tax
advice and or partnering withother partners like a state
(21:40):
attorney for estate planning,all that kind of stuff.
But now this is about workingand bringing into the past money
story, the money scripts, theunwritten rules that drive us
sometimes to negative placeswith negative money disorders
that stand in the way.
So working, and right now mygoal is to build out a beta test
(22:00):
track program, if you will, tokind of work on some of the
small group of clients and thenstart offering that out to a
bigger group and potentiallyeven partnering with other
financial advisors, financialplanners with a client, so
they'd stay their client, but Ican come alongside as the
facilitator to work through someof those past emotional issues.
So that's what I'm excitedabout for this next year.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
So you don't have very much on tap for next year,
is what you're saying?
That was just one of the things.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
I have more but your podcast doesn't have unlimited
time.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Oh man, daniel, you have simply amazed me in the
time that I've known you, fromwhere you have come and where
you are now.
I can't even say good enoughthings about how great of an
example you are for someone else, specifically in your space
(22:56):
catering to widows and widowersand in the military space, and
how great an example you are.
And I keep saying that over andover again.
But I hear people you know talkabout Daniel, how he's doing
these great things and I'm soproud of you, man, you know you
make me proud like a littlebrother, Daniel's, you know he's
(23:19):
a couple of years younger thanme, maybe 10 years younger than
me, but I appreciate that verymuch.
Yes, you make me so proud ofyou.
I want to brag on him for acouple of things.
So Daniel mentioned that he hashis own financial planning
practice, which he set out to doand he's accomplished that.
He's in his master's program.
(23:40):
He's got a certified financialplanner designation.
Daniel also has a blog that hedoes every week.
I believe he also got acertified financial planner
designation.
Daniel also has a blog that hedoes every week.
I believe he also has a podcastas well.
He was well ahead of me on thepodcast front and I went to
Daniel, as you know, kind of myresearch, and I asked Daniel,
tell me about this podcast dealand, you know, give me some
(24:01):
pointers here or there.
And he gave me a lot of goodinformation and was very willing
to, you know, give me feedbackin terms of you know, what I
should look for in a podcasttechnology.
You know, editing, soundquality, on and on and on.
So I'm going to thank Danielfor a lot of that information.
(24:22):
If you think the podcast aregood, thank Daniel.
If you think that podcast aregood, thank Daniel If you think
that they're bad.
Thank, daniel too.
I'm being facetious, but I'mvery grateful for you, very,
very grateful for you.
Daniel, how can people reachyou?
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Well, the best place is my website.
Can people reach you?
Well, the best place is mywebsite, wisestewardshipfpcom.
My emaildanielatwisestewardshipfpcom.
I have my other contactinformation there.
You can find me around onsocial media Twitter, daniel M
Kopp, or LinkedIn, and then, ofcourse, instagram, facebook,
things like that.
When we were talking about thisissue of grief, it reminded of
(25:03):
like you're either in a trial oryou're getting ready for the
next one and you know, echoingwhat you have said about some of
those things, appreciating youlike what you have done is help
prepare me for a lot of thosethings that are coming next,
whether that's in grief orotherwise.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Well, I appreciate that I'm excited for 2022 for
you.
I am really excited and I can'twait to see, you know, the
other things that you are goingto do.
I'm going to be looking veryclosely and I'll probably
emulate some of those otherthings.
So I'm smart enough and I'm oldenough and I'm wise enough to
understand that there are peopleout there that do things that
(25:43):
may be better or different thanyou, and you know you should
take a second look at thingsother people are doing, and so,
again, I'm appreciative of yourrelationship, daniel, and so I
can't say that enough, andanything else you want to say
before we sign off.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
The last thing that I'll leave our listeners with at
this point is when you areworking with people who are in
life after grief, or perhapswhen it's your time to
experience that at some level.
Like there's internal work thatgets to be done right, and we
didn't allude to it specificallyin here but having you know the
(26:25):
pillars of your life set up soI alluded to this a moment ago
like you're in a trial, you'regetting ready for the next one.
So your mental, emotional,physical, spiritual pillars in
your life, like what are youdoing to kind of strengthen and
shore those up right now?
And then, if you have theprivilege or the opportunity to
work with somebody in thoseareas, whether it's in financial
(26:47):
planning or a family member ora friend who comes alongside,
like you know, with talkingabout this idea of objective
accountability, chris hasalluded to that Our friendship
has and business interactionsand things like that have
certainly given us opportunityto provide that iron sharpening
iron, that accountability, toprovide that iron sharpening
(27:07):
iron, that accountability.
So if you have the privilegeand the opportunity to come
alongside somebody in their lifeafter grief journey, like being
able to have that relationshipis invaluable to point out where
you might be stronger or weakerin some of those areas,
professionally, personally orotherwise.
I think this episode has givenan excellent example of what can
happen when relationships aredeepened and strengthened over
(27:28):
time to help in a variety ofareas.
So lean into thoserelationships in your life or
work to develop those withclients so you can have those
same kind of impacts.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
And I'll just jump on the backside of that of that, I
believe our journey separately,through grief were enhanced, if
you can say enhanced, becausewe had strong foundations before
we went through the journey.
(28:00):
And there is no way for myselfand I'll speak for Daniel to
know that we had this strongfoundation to prepare us for
this journey that we were aboutto go through.
So, in looking back inretrospect, we were very
fortunate collectively that wehad this strong foundation and I
believe, spiritually number oneand then number two, the family
and friends and the supportsystem really helped our journey
(28:23):
to get here.
And it's not Chris Dale or it'snot Daniel Kopp that did this
alone.
It is a family, it's a network,it is a neighborhood that
helped us to get where we aretoday.
So I would be remiss if I werenot able to say that.
(28:43):
And again, it's not just uscollectively, daniel and Chris,
that did this alone.
We had a whole support systemof folks that helped us get
through here.
So, with that, I am going tosign off and I'm going to say
thank you so much for joiningtoday, Daniel.
I really, really appreciate you.
And, Daniel, I'm going to giveyou an opportunity to state your
(29:05):
website one more time and thenI'm going to say a couple words
and then we're going to sign off.
So what's your website, Daniel?
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Well, my firm is Wise Stewardship Financial Planning,
so if you Google that you canprobably get there, but the
direct addresswisestuardshipfpcom.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Thank you for joining and please feel free to share
this episode with any friends,colleagues or family members.
See you on the next episode.
Thank you for listening to ourpodcast.
If you are a client and arelooking to work directly with me
(29:42):
, chris and or my firm, head onover to Lifeaftergrieffp.
That is lifeaftergrieffp.
The FP is forfinancialplanningcom.
If you are an advisor lookingto emotionally and financially
work with your client in grief,or if you are a client looking
to get your advisor's head inthe game, head on over to
(30:02):
lifeaftergriefconsultingcom thatis lifeaftergriefconsultingcom.
Any information referenced inthis week's podcast will be
located here in the podcastsection and, as always, please
feel free to share this week'spodcast with any friend, family
member or colleague.
Thanks for listening.
(30:24):
See you next week on the nextepisode.
Welcome to Real Talk with Life After Grief Chris,
where we talk about relevantissues as it relates to
individuals in grief as theynavigate finances and the
advisors who help them.
We help clients in griefnavigate financial matters.
We also teach advisors how toemotionally and financially work
with clients in grief throughan unparalleled process.
This week's episode issponsored by Life After Grief
(00:24):
Financial Planning and LifeAfter Grief Consulting.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of Real Talk with Life
After Grief Chris.
In today's episode we have aspecial guest.
We are interviewing fellow LifeAfter Griever, daniel Kopp.
Daniel is a good buddy of mineand he is a fellow griever and a
(00:46):
financial planner with his ownpractice.
His practice is called WiseStewardship Financial Planning
and his practice focuses onhelping widows and widowers
across the US with financialplanning and advice.
Daniel, welcome to the episode,buddy.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Chris, I'm really excited to be here and share in
this mission of yours to changethe conversation about grief,
make it more accessible andhopefully what I share will be a
help to your listeners.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
And, if the truth be told, so in our relationship.
We're going to go into somebackground about Daniel and how
we both met, but my knowingDaniel and understanding his
journey through grief reallyhelped me in all facets and my
journey through grief and mylearning about others through
(01:35):
grief and ultimately helpingother people.
Daniel, I'm going to put a lotof stuff on you today, my friend
, of course, how did you stalk?
I mean, how did we meet?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Google.
So I was in the middle of thebeginnings of my grief journey
after my wife, sarah, had passedaway, and I was interested at
the time in exploring the careerchange.
So I was active duty Air Forceofficer, I had begun the CFP
coursework.
I was thinking about launchingor joining another financial
(02:09):
planning firm.
Somehow I stumbled across youand I was like, wow, there's
this guy out there who isworking with people in this
space.
Obviously, I was firstconnected with you because of
your personal story and whatyour grief journey had been like
and so, as a result of that,reached out, and then also,
obviously, your career journeyas a fellow financial planner,
(02:31):
and so I remember we had like aninitial conversation back
probably in late 2017, where youjust kind of shared about what
your journey has been like andbeen a big help to me since then
and paving the way, showing apath forward.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Yeah, I paved the way , I like to say I was tripping
and falling along the way, so Idon't know if paved it, but I
was stumbling through it at best.
Well, it's been a helpregardless.
Well, it's my pleasure.
Tell us about yourself and youmentioned a few things, but tell
us more broadly about yourselfand why you are a few things,
(03:04):
but tell us more broadly aboutyourself and why you are a life
after griever, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yes, if I back up a little bit, so I spent my first
part of my career after collegeas an officer on active duty in
the Air Force, but my first lovewas always personal finance.
I didn't know that there was anopportunity to work with people
one-on-one in a financialplanning role, as opposed to
like a product sales or thingslike that.
(03:29):
So that's what I did.
I was an officer, but in myspare time, my free time, I was
doing a lot of personal finance,counseling, teaching classes,
things like that.
Ultimately, that led to mestarting a blog and then somehow
stumbled across this wholething called fee-only financial
planning.
The journey began from there.
At the time, my wife Sarah hadstarted developing some
(03:51):
illnesses and things thatrequired ongoing care, such that
I became her full-timecaregiver while I was still in
active duty and ultimately cameto the realization that a career
and the requirements ofdeployments and TDYs and just
the busyness of active duty andbeing a full-time caregiver just
could not ultimately sync up inthe long term.
So I started making plans for acareer transition.
(04:14):
Like I said, I'd started thecertified financial planner
coursework and it was justexploring opportunities in this
space.
Middle 2017, her healthprogressed such that she was
going to be moving into hospice,and we spent the last six weeks
together just enjoying timetogether with family, and
ultimately part of that was somedeep conversation about what
(04:35):
she wanted next for my futureand continue on this journey
that I had started with wantingto help people with money.
I had no idea what that wasgoing to look like at the time
and ultimately got out of activeduty in February of 2018, about
five six months after Sarah hadpassed away.
Then that gave me time to rest,to heal, to think.
I ultimately took a sabbaticalabout eight months off, lived in
(04:58):
an RV and traveled across 37states, spent time with friends
and family and things like thatthat I hadn't been able to see
much in my active duty militarycareer.
And then somethingextraordinary happened that God
brought into my life.
I met Anna on those journey anda relationship developed and
ultimately went up gettingengaged and then married at the
(05:18):
end of 2018.
I moved to join her where shewas at in Boston and launched
Wise Stewardship FinancialPlanning around that same time,
incorporating now both thepersonal elements of my grief
journey with professionalexpertise on the financial
planning side.
So that's where I'm at today.
(05:41):
Now, my goal's right now atKansas State University in their
advanced financial planning andfinancial therapy program,
where I'm learning to exploremore of the past money story as
it relates to grief,specifically working with widows
who struggle with this moneyavoidance challenge or belief
(06:05):
that money is bad or they don'twant to have anything to deal
with it.
So working to help my clientsfirst, but also advance the
profession through academicresearch, and I'm excited to be
here and share on any or all ofpart of that journey.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
So something that I've learned early in my career
is I align myself with peoplethat are smarter than me.
So Daniel said a lot of stuffin regards to and I like to
bring humor.
So Daniel's very well-educated,as you can hear and you can
listen to his journey in regardsto the thought process and his
(06:40):
journey through grief and someof the things that he's done
methodically, and he became acertified financial planner.
He left that out.
I'm going to interject that,which is a very hard element to
obtain, and I'm going to sayit's even harder when you're in
the throes of grief.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Getting that, yeah, I didn't mention that, but I did
have to take like about an 18month break in there.
Brain fog was such a realchallenge.
So I'd started the courseworkin 2016, 2017, but I ultimately
did not finish that until late2018, early 2019.
It just I could not studyenough.
So I yes, definitelyrecognizing that brain fog.
(07:20):
I personally went through that.
It was a very hard challenge.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
And I also went through the brain fog that
Daniel mentioned as well.
I chose to try to power throughit, which didn't really work so
well in my favor.
I eventually did get my CFPdesignation, as you're all very
well aware of.
It wasn't without some stumbles, though.
So, like I said, I like toalign myself with people that
(07:44):
are smarter than me, and Danielis one of those folks.
That is a pretty smart, prettysmart guy.
And, daniel, you talked aboutyour journey, and you and I are
both very spiritual people, andI think that is also connected
us as well outside of.
You know our relationship withgrief.
(08:05):
Yes, can you just explain fromwhere you came from and where
you are now spiritually?
You know how you've gotten tothis place, because in my
situation, it was either a do ordie.
It was either I am going to notgo on any longer because I've
(08:26):
had so much happen in my life,or I'm going to find a way to be
able to bring myself back up,and it was through other people
and through the grace of God andthrough my belief in God as
well.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Yeah, that is an interesting way to put it in
mirrors deeper or out.
Going through the health trialsat the beginning was certainly
probably the biggest challengeto the faith.
By the time that hospice camearound, I was at the point where
I had realized I had zerocontrol of anything in the
(09:01):
situation, and for me that was aplace of dependence and
humility that ultimately allowedthe floodgates of grace and
mercy to come in ever me down,such that when I was there,
struggling all alone, now that'swhen I realized for me,
spiritually, god's grace wasmore than sufficient.
(09:22):
And, as you said, other peoplecame alongside.
And, as you said, other peoplecame alongside and that's what
the Apostle Paul talks about in2 Corinthians 4 and 5, like the
(09:45):
comfort with which we have beencomforted, now able to come and
help other people.
So there were those people,those people who rallied around
me, strengthening, encouragingme, pointing me to truth, not
abandoning me when I was at myworst in that journey, something
that I will always, always bethankful for.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Well, as I am thankful for your friendship, my
friend.
You have helped me through sometrials and tribulations, and we
all go through some trials andtribulations.
Even after your throws throughgrief, you've had others and my
deep throws that are publiclyknown through grief.
I've had other trials andtribulations and we continue to
march on and lay a foundationfor other people.
So I'm very thankful for youbeing in my life.
So I appreciate what you havebrought to my life.
(10:33):
And Daniel and I recently hadbreakfast and I rarely have an
opportunity where I can justblab ad nauseum, and so usually
I'm on the listening end ofother people because they want
to feel comfortable, they wantto feel very comfortable and
they want the situation to feelnormalized, and that's what I'm
(10:55):
here to do.
But there are times where I needto just blab and, you know,
just talk about whatever is onmy mind, and Daniel gave me that
opportunity to do that andthat's from his wisdom as well,
and I think he kind of sensedthat I needed that and he got a
chance to say a lot as wellduring the conversation we
caught up.
It was a very, very good time.
(11:15):
He was taking a pre-vacation.
I won't go into too much detail, but he was here locally in the
Orlando area and so we got achance to catch up, so I was
very appreciative of that.
And, daniel, I want tounderstand what our relationship
has really done for you interms of where you know when you
(11:38):
stalked me, I mean where wefirst met, and you know where we
are now.
You know collectively.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Deep question, good question.
So one realizing the language,that which you used I had not
seen other professionals dooutside of my grief counselor or
people in the, you know,pastoral ministry or things like
that who talked as openly asthey did about their grief
(12:06):
journey.
So for me, chris, I mean thatwas one of the biggest lessons
learned, inspiration points,where you used your story first
and foremost to show people thatgrief is an ongoing journey,
like this whole idea of there islife after grief, you know, and
it's different and it's hard,and grief is a lifelong journey.
(12:26):
You don't ever leave it behind.
Your life grows and evolves andchanges around it.
But for me that was probably oneof the biggest things because I
hadn't seen, certainlyprofessionals in the financial
planning space talking aboutthat, but even just in general,
outside of you know, the griefspace.
So just normalizing, we as aculture in America, in the
Western world, generallystruggle to talk about hard
(12:48):
things like death and loss andgrief.
So learning and watching fromyou and then, as your
professional journey went alongas well, realizing that that is
an opening now and I have anability to help clients and
people who are in grief but alsoto point to other professionals
and be an example in thisfinancial planning space of what
(13:11):
can be done around helpingpeople in that space.
Those are the first two thingsthat come immediately to mind.
We can take it from there.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Okay, and I appreciate the candor, I'm going
to take a step back, because weare financial planning
professionals and one of thethings we kind of glossed over
there's the financial impact oftaking care of a spouse, and it
is a dramatic financial impactwhich can slow down grief
(13:39):
because it can sideline you,because you have to worry about
the other aspect of finances.
And I want to just touch on thefacts and ask you some
questions about what was thefinancial implication to you
when you were taking care ofyour spouse as a caregiver it
was more emotional, mental,physical than it was financial.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
At that time I was the only one earning income, so
it wasn't like we had a loss ofincome.
I know that's the case withmany people in the caregiving
situation and credit to the AirForce leadership that I had that
in the time period when Ineeded extra time to do those
caregiver roles, they gave it tome and it did not impact my pay
(14:23):
.
I mean incredibly blessed tohave TRICARE coverage during
that timeframe, which wasextraordinarily financially
helpful At one point.
I estimate over the last twoyears of care they probably
spent almost $1.2, $1.3 millionon her care that we didn't have
to pay other than small co-payslike literally just a lifesaver
(14:44):
financially in that.
However, when I was getting outand walking away from that
TRICARE benefit, that made merealize so much more as I look
to the new family situation likehow do I evaluate that?
So a comprehensive, holisticfinancial plan wants to look at
the risks that are out therewith how much out-of-pocket
costs other health insurance,disability insurance we don't
(15:04):
talk about that enough in thisspace, sometimes about loss of
income but still needing carealong those lines and then
ultimately, for those later onin their life long-term care.
So it changed my perspectivearound risk dramatically and
Morgan Housel, one of the bestcreative writers in this
financial space.
He talks about this idea thatrisk is what you don't see.
(15:26):
And having gone through thispersonal experience and seeing
what it would look like when Ihad to step away and fortunately
I had the capacity financiallyat that point in time, but what
if I hadn't?
That could have been ruinous.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Not just the enormous stress that it was mentally,
emotionally, physically and youbrought up a good point in
regards to risk of what clientspotentially excuse me don't see,
and that's how we're supposedto advise them in regards to
protecting them.
And there are many things basedon your experience and or my
(16:01):
experience that we can see aheadfor clients and we can advise
them and say I've been throughthis or I've seen other clients
go through this.
This is not a risk that youshould take on.
This is a risk that you shouldput on to someone else, meaning
paying an insurance provider totake on that risk.
(16:22):
So that's a very, very goodpoint to bring up.
Something else that you hadbrought up in regards to our
relationship.
One of the things that you saidthat you had learned from me was
being open and candid and howto talk about this monster that
you call grief, and I'm verycomfortable with talking about
(16:44):
it as you are and one of thethings that I did a couple of
years ago is I developed thiscourse, the Advisor's Guide for
Grieving Clients, and I hadasked Daniel to take the course
and give me some candid feedback, and he, along with a couple of
other folks that are in mytight circle, gave me some very
(17:05):
candid feedback, and Daniel saidthat he's learned some things
from me, and I've learned awhole heck of a lot of things
from him.
But, daniel, I want tounderstand, you know, some of
the things that the course, whatmy course, has done for you and
your practice.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yeah, yeah, and I'm grateful that you gave me the
opportunity to take it early onin the practice, because again
there's this idea of personalexperience is not enough to
translate into success, and sowhat you were able to bring was
a little bit more disciplinedthought pattern and approach to
working.
The biggest thing that stood outto me going through your course
(17:40):
was understanding how thedifferent styles of grieving
interplay with differentcommunication patterns, and this
goes back to what I was justsaying.
Like, you can only know your ownpersonal grieving style.
For those who've gone thisjourney or watch other people,
right, you're seeing theirperspective or your own and
recognize that there are manydifferent ways that grief can be
(18:02):
expressed and then way peoplewant to be communicated through
in grief.
So, early on, just beingunderstanding of the different
styles of people that I would beworking with, how they wanted
to be communicated with, andthen, as they went through their
various stages of the changecycle in understanding where and
which interventions are needed,to say, like, be the
(18:24):
encouraging ear, just thelistening ear At the same time,
like the person who can comeinto that inner circle of a
griever who still I meansometimes decisions have to be
made, whether it's financial orotherwise and be an
accountability partner for them.
That says we've had these deepconversations.
I know you, here's your values.
(18:45):
Let's move towards that.
Let's make a decision here.
So combining those kinds ofaspects were some of the things
that walked away with in myfinancial planning practice, and
then personally as well.
I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
And the feedback that you gave me early on and
continue to give me isinvaluable.
There are some times where Icheck in with Daniel and we are
involved in a few organizationstogether and I check in with
Daniel if he is on the otherside, kind of witnessing what
I'm doing or looking at me, andI check in with him.
(19:19):
I say, hey, daniel, am Italking too much?
Am I doing a little bit toomuch?
And he's very candid and thereare times that I need that.
Obviously, wives do a good jobof doing that.
My wife does that for me, but Iknow well enough that I do need
to check in with other peopleto keep me honest and to keep me
humble, and he does that for meand I really appreciate that
(19:41):
aspect of our relationship.
Daniel, what's on the horizonfor you, you know, into 2022?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah, some exciting things I alluded to earlier.
So, as I've finished out someof my academic training in this
world of financial therapy,bringing it into and alongside
the track of financial planning.
So financial therapy for thosewho may have never heard of it
is basically the study, theinteraction with the emotions
(20:11):
from our past around money,today and into the future.
For a very, very, very, verylong time, the world of mental
health practitioners didn't talkabout money, and in the world
of financial planning orfinancial advice we didn't talk
about feelings or emotions,right when it was very present
and future oriented.
We don't go to the past.
As a financial therapist, I amnot going to be licensed in the
(20:35):
sense that I'm diagnosing orprescribing, instead acting as a
guided facilitator, aconversational partner, a
thinking partner to go throughthis, to use some specific
therapeutic interventions thatcome from the world of mental
health.
Some of them might be familiar,like cognitive behavioral
therapy or solution-focusedtherapy, acceptance and
(20:56):
commitment therapy things thathave worked, that have been
proven to work in the world ofmental health.
But now we're going tospecifically apply them to the
realm of money.
I mentioned the term moneyavoidance beforehand, so that's
probably my biggest focus now isdeveloping some therapeutic
interventions around helpingpeople, specifically those in
grief, who suddenly have to stepinto this role of the household
(21:20):
chief financial officer.
Work through grief at the sametime that they're working
through everything is new anddifferent and hard as they
become the primary householdmanager around finances.
So traditional financialplanning can address things like
how much life insurance andwhat you invest in and tax
advice and or partnering withother partners like a state
(21:40):
attorney for estate planning,all that kind of stuff.
But now this is about workingand bringing into the past money
story, the money scripts, theunwritten rules that drive us
sometimes to negative placeswith negative money disorders
that stand in the way.
So working, and right now mygoal is to build out a beta test
(22:00):
track program, if you will, tokind of work on some of the
small group of clients and thenstart offering that out to a
bigger group and potentiallyeven partnering with other
financial advisors, financialplanners with a client, so
they'd stay their client, but Ican come alongside as the
facilitator to work through someof those past emotional issues.
So that's what I'm excitedabout for this next year.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
So you don't have very much on tap for next year,
is what you're saying?
That was just one of the things.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
I have more but your podcast doesn't have unlimited
time.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Oh man, daniel, you have simply amazed me in the
time that I've known you, fromwhere you have come and where
you are now.
I can't even say good enoughthings about how great of an
example you are for someone else, specifically in your space
(22:56):
catering to widows and widowersand in the military space, and
how great an example you are.
And I keep saying that over andover again.
But I hear people you know talkabout Daniel, how he's doing
these great things and I'm soproud of you, man, you know you
make me proud like a littlebrother, Daniel's, you know he's
(23:19):
a couple of years younger thanme, maybe 10 years younger than
me, but I appreciate that verymuch.
Yes, you make me so proud ofyou.
I want to brag on him for acouple of things.
So Daniel mentioned that he hashis own financial planning
practice, which he set out to doand he's accomplished that.
He's in his master's program.
(23:40):
He's got a certified financialplanner designation.
Daniel also has a blog that hedoes every week.
I believe he also got acertified financial planner
designation.
Daniel also has a blog that hedoes every week.
I believe he also has a podcastas well.
He was well ahead of me on thepodcast front and I went to
Daniel, as you know, kind of myresearch, and I asked Daniel,
tell me about this podcast dealand, you know, give me some
(24:01):
pointers here or there.
And he gave me a lot of goodinformation and was very willing
to, you know, give me feedbackin terms of you know, what I
should look for in a podcasttechnology.
You know, editing, soundquality, on and on and on.
So I'm going to thank Danielfor a lot of that information.
(24:22):
If you think the podcast aregood, thank Daniel.
If you think that podcast aregood, thank Daniel If you think
that they're bad.
Thank, daniel too.
I'm being facetious, but I'mvery grateful for you, very,
very grateful for you.
Daniel, how can people reachyou?
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Well, the best place is my website.
Can people reach you?
Well, the best place is mywebsite, wisestewardshipfpcom.
My emaildanielatwisestewardshipfpcom.
I have my other contactinformation there.
You can find me around onsocial media Twitter, daniel M
Kopp, or LinkedIn, and then, ofcourse, instagram, facebook,
things like that.
When we were talking about thisissue of grief, it reminded of
(25:03):
like you're either in a trial oryou're getting ready for the
next one and you know, echoingwhat you have said about some of
those things, appreciating youlike what you have done is help
prepare me for a lot of thosethings that are coming next,
whether that's in grief orotherwise.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Well, I appreciate that I'm excited for 2022 for
you.
I am really excited and I can'twait to see, you know, the
other things that you are goingto do.
I'm going to be looking veryclosely and I'll probably
emulate some of those otherthings.
So I'm smart enough and I'm oldenough and I'm wise enough to
understand that there are peopleout there that do things that
(25:43):
may be better or different thanyou, and you know you should
take a second look at thingsother people are doing, and so,
again, I'm appreciative of yourrelationship, daniel, and so I
can't say that enough, andanything else you want to say
before we sign off.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
The last thing that I'll leave our listeners with at
this point is when you areworking with people who are in
life after grief, or perhapswhen it's your time to
experience that at some level.
Like there's internal work thatgets to be done right, and we
didn't allude to it specificallyin here but having you know the
(26:25):
pillars of your life set up soI alluded to this a moment ago
like you're in a trial, you'regetting ready for the next one.
So your mental, emotional,physical, spiritual pillars in
your life, like what are youdoing to kind of strengthen and
shore those up right now?
And then, if you have theprivilege or the opportunity to
work with somebody in thoseareas, whether it's in financial
(26:47):
planning or a family member ora friend who comes alongside,
like you know, with talkingabout this idea of objective
accountability, chris hasalluded to that Our friendship
has and business interactionsand things like that have
certainly given us opportunityto provide that iron sharpening
iron, that accountability, toprovide that iron sharpening
(27:07):
iron, that accountability.
So if you have the privilegeand the opportunity to come
alongside somebody in their lifeafter grief journey, like being
able to have that relationshipis invaluable to point out where
you might be stronger or weakerin some of those areas,
professionally, personally orotherwise.
I think this episode has givenan excellent example of what can
happen when relationships aredeepened and strengthened over
(27:28):
time to help in a variety ofareas.
So lean into thoserelationships in your life or
work to develop those withclients so you can have those
same kind of impacts.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
And I'll just jump on the backside of that of that, I
believe our journey separately,through grief were enhanced, if
you can say enhanced, becausewe had strong foundations before
we went through the journey.
(28:00):
And there is no way for myselfand I'll speak for Daniel to
know that we had this strongfoundation to prepare us for
this journey that we were aboutto go through.
So, in looking back inretrospect, we were very
fortunate collectively that wehad this strong foundation and I
believe, spiritually number oneand then number two, the family
and friends and the supportsystem really helped our journey
(28:23):
to get here.
And it's not Chris Dale or it'snot Daniel Kopp that did this
alone.
It is a family, it's a network,it is a neighborhood that
helped us to get where we aretoday.
So I would be remiss if I werenot able to say that.
(28:43):
And again, it's not just uscollectively, daniel and Chris,
that did this alone.
We had a whole support systemof folks that helped us get
through here.
So, with that, I am going tosign off and I'm going to say
thank you so much for joiningtoday, Daniel.
I really, really appreciate you.
And, Daniel, I'm going to giveyou an opportunity to state your
(29:05):
website one more time and thenI'm going to say a couple words
and then we're going to sign off.
So what's your website, Daniel?
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Well, my firm is Wise Stewardship Financial Planning,
so if you Google that you canprobably get there, but the
direct addresswisestuardshipfpcom.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Thank you for joining and please feel free to share
this episode with any friends,colleagues or family members.
See you on the next episode.
Thank you for listening to ourpodcast.
If you are a client and arelooking to work directly with me
(29:42):
, chris and or my firm, head onover to Lifeaftergrieffp.
That is lifeaftergrieffp.
The FP is forfinancialplanningcom.
If you are an advisor lookingto emotionally and financially
work with your client in grief,or if you are a client looking
to get your advisor's head inthe game, head on over to
(30:02):
lifeaftergriefconsultingcom thatis lifeaftergriefconsultingcom.
Any information referenced inthis week's podcast will be
located here in the podcastsection and, as always, please
feel free to share this week'spodcast with any friend, family
member or colleague.
Thanks for listening.
(30:24):
See you next week on the nextepisode.
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