May 1, 2025 • 41 mins
What happens when a dare turns into a creative mission? For writer Jordan Troche, it sparked a journey into crafting rich fantasy worlds that blend biblical mythology, medieval adventure, and anime-inspired storytelling. In this deeply personal conversation, Jordan pulls back the curtain on his creative process and the evolution of his unique narrative style.
The conversation begins with Jordan revealing how "The Fallen," his 50-chapter webcomic series, emerged from a challenge to create stories without the filler that often plagues popular series. Drawing inspiration from ancient texts like the Dead Sea Scrolls, Jordan transformed obscure biblical references to Nephilim into a compelling dark fantasy universe where monster hunters navigate a pre-flood world teeming with otherworldly threats.
Jordan offers invaluable insights into the contrasting demands of webcomic scripting versus novel writing. While creating visual direction for artists requires technical precision, novel writing demands a different discipline—one that Jordan believes has been enhanced by his experience with concise comic scripting. He discusses his organic "pantsing" approach to storytelling, where endings may be planned but the journey itself unfolds through discovery, allowing characters and plots to evolve naturally beyond initial outlines.
Most poignantly, Jordan addresses the emotional challenges of independent publishing. With refreshing candor, he describes the journey from creative fulfillment to the often disappointing realities of marketing and reader engagement. His hard-won advice for aspiring creators? Define success on your own terms before finishing your work, and never let publishing struggles diminish your love for storytelling.
As the webcomic landscape continues expanding globally, with more independent works being adapted into animation, Jordan sees unprecedented opportunities for diverse creators to bring their visions to life. His parting wisdom resonates with creators at any stage: stop second-guessing yourself. Your unique perspective means that even familiar story frameworks can become something extraordinary through your distinctive creative lens.
Whether you're a writer, artist, or passionate fan of imaginative storytelling, this episode offers both practical guidance and heartfelt encouragement to pursue your creative vision with confidence and persistence.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Realm Jumpers.
I'm Andrew and this is myco-host, jordan.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Hey everyone.
We're here to dive into theworlds of fantasy and anime,
bringing you epic stories andunforgettable adventures.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
We'll be talking world building, unforgettable
villains and everything thatmakes these genres legendary.
So let's jump into the realmand everything that makes these
genres legendary.
So let's jump into the realm.
Tonight, we're going to bediving into the mind of an indie
storyteller, his creativeprocess, the struggles of
bringing stories to life andwhat it takes it to make in the
world of webcomics and novels.
Join us as we sit down with ourvery own Jordan Troche, to
(00:42):
explore his writing journey, thefuture of indie publishing, and
maybe even challenge him with ahot take or two um.
But let's check out what's goingon in the world of realm rumors
.
I mean, it's prettylight-hearted, um, and honestly
just kind of funny.
So a police department in japanthey took the detective conan
um character and they'restarting to use him to like put
(01:06):
out calls for, you know,recruitment calls.
So like they're using detectiveconan as a recruitment call for
the police department, which,hey, I mean get him young, right
?
Yeah, no, I mean it's, it'sabsolutely, you know, it's funny
and I thought it was cute wayto you know to do that.
And then it just, of course, Iimmediately went to oh my god,
can you imagine if we put thepunisher on any of our police
(01:29):
departments recruitment stuff ohno this.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
This is why the west is in america specifically.
Just they're too much man no,absolutely it would turn it
would turn into.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
That would not be the person that you want to be yeah
, right, no, that's kind of yeah, I just get inspired by
Punisher, right?
Do we even have a policeofficer or detective character
that we could legitimately puton something like that?
Dude, like I mean to to recruitpeople that's like upstanding
and, you know, got a mind forjustice and not completely like
(02:03):
revenge, like anti-hero revenge,right, or yeah, or, like you
know, sherlock can't do him.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
He's not, he's not american.
I don't even know.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I don't think we got anybody, to be honest, I, I
couldn't think of a character,um, and you know, somebody's
gonna fire off in comments orsomewhere and they're gonna be
like you forgot about so-and-soand I'm gonna look like yeah,
obviously I did, because I mainperson that anybody in america
thinks of when you think of acop.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
As far as comic book characters, I guess the green
martian I mean, if you want tosay like green lanterns, like a
space cop, no, but I mean itdidn't the green martian was a
like.
He took on the job of a coplike it is yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, I mean, if you Okay,although let me say this Hold on
Cop no, but detective, I meanBatman.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
That'd be also terrible.
That'd be just as bad asPunisher Breaking spines Right,
yeah, no, that's yeah, that's abad call.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Because, yeah, because you can't, yeah, you
really can't be crippling people.
Yeah, yeah, we're done now.
That's terrible.
It's terrible.
Please do not be like batman ifyou are thinking of joining the
police force that is a terribleidea.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Don't do it, although it would be a cool story, but
please don't do it right.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Yeah, no, that'd be bad.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
That's just all around that terrible well, maybe
we should create a character, Iguess.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
I mean we could try.
Right, I can't draw for crap.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
So, you know, I could write a character, maybe, I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Should we dive into the interview portion this main
topic?
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yeah, I mean let's, let's do it.
Man, I'm nervous, but let's go,let's go.
You guys be nervous for Allright, let's dive into this
thing, man, it shouldn't be toobad.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
So the first question you know we talked a little bit
about how you got started onyour writing journey in our
origin stories episode, episodezero, episode zero and you know
you mentioned that it was a darefrom your sister to create
something better.
Can you expand on that more?
You know, were there anyspecific anime books or, you
(04:05):
know, comics that shaped yourapproach to storytelling?
Absolutely so.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I wouldn't even say better, just non filler.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Can you read it?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
It's automatically better.
Um, but yeah, I mean, in myoriginal series, which is now
called the fallen, which you cancan read, there's 50 chapters
out on voicemail via ycemecomyou can find it.
Um, but anyway it's, it's, it'sbreakneck speed storytelling.
Honestly, I probably would slowit down a little bit more when
I do season two, but I was justlike, so gung-ho about we're not
(04:38):
doing filler, we're moving andgrooving, um, but as far as,
like, what inspired it?
Yeah, I mean, you know, know,obviously, bleach with the
powers, with the swords, youknow the that level of stuff,
although I'd say really bigmedieval fantasy, I mean that's
really the biggest thing.
That really started that storyfor me.
And you know I wanted to createa really scary medieval war
(04:59):
world.
That was quote pre flood fromthe Bible.
So I kind of wanted to go alittle crazy with it.
Uh, and you know who knows whatit was really like back then,
really.
So let's just have some funtype stuff.
And I wanted to have creaturesand monsters and otherworldly
things and someone hunting them.
You know that kind of stuff.
I wish I could say the Witcherinspired it.
You know, I know yourbackground back there.
(05:20):
You could see him with themonster hunting angle, because
ezekiel does do that a lot inthere.
But I didn't really knowwitcher that much back then.
So it was just kind of like youknow just, you know, monster
hunting is a very normal thingthat we think, so I wanted to
incorporate it a little bit.
Um, and then you know myfavorite berserk.
I mean, I wanted it to be adark world with really bad stuff
, you know as well.
So I would say those are thereal series and just shonen and
(05:43):
I love battle.
You know action, fighting,manga and stuff.
So I wanted to create one of myin that world gotcha.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
So the fallen was before deck of fates.
Yeah, yep, so okay, I thoughtit was the reverse, I thought it
was well in in publishing likein the world.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Yes, deck of fates would technically have been
first, but the fallen was theretelling of my original
nephilim story that I originallystarted writing for.
So in my mind that was alwaysreally the first um.
That was really the first thingI ever wrote as a script, you
know, and learning how to script, write and learning how to
panel it and you know all thatkind of fun stuff.
Yeah, in my mind it's alwaysfirst um, it did come out later,
(06:20):
uh, when it was finally calledthe fallen.
But there's, you know, I havelike three different versions of
nephilim.
In my mind it's always first.
It did come out later when itwas finally called the Fallen.
But I have like three differentversions of Nephilim in my
computer from back in the day.
A manga, a comic.
Now it's finally the Fallen andit's a webtoon and all that,
but it's the number one in mymind, just because it's the
first thing I ever wrote.
That was what the dare wasabout, really.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, I gotcha.
So the Fall fallen for me.
I remember the first time Ilooked at it.
Um, well, let me backstep therefor a second.
You know, growing up as ateenager, the there was a lot of
books that were just startingto come out, like young adult
fantasy stuff that was gearedtowards, yeah, you know,
nephilim and fallen angelstories.
Um, the unfortunate side ofthat was most of them ended up
(07:01):
being like on the tween sidewith the love triangle stuff,
which was, of course, not asmuch fun, um, you know, but I I
definitely could feel the vibeand I liked it and I appreciate,
because you know who doesn'tlove a good story, I don't know,
I think it was.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
It's good stories.
Yeah, I appreciate that man.
Thank you, it's just one ofthose ones I wanted to mix like
bible, ancient world, old world,themes, I guess you know kind
of stuff in my own version ofwhat pre-flood could be, or
whatever, in a world of you knowhalf angel monsters.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Did you do a lot of research for that?
Like what, or what kind of whatwas your research?
Looking at that?
Sorry, are you there?
My system is crashing for asecond.
What'd you say?
No, I was saying, like whatkind of research were you on?
Did you just go looking forstories in the Bible or did you
just what was your research?
What did your research looklike?
For yeah, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
So I mean, I grew up Roman Catholic so I had a lot of
already you know Bible storiesthat I've read and had to go to
Sunday school and all that funstuff for.
But in that age of when Istarted writing it in my early
20s, I was really diving intolike different myths from you
know old world stuff, from likeyou know ancient history or
(08:12):
ancient possible history, Iguess.
And when I kind of stumbledonto the Dead Sea Scrolls is it
really, you know, I read themand I read Revelations and stuff
back when I was younger.
But when I read Dead SeaScrolls it reads like a action
movie in a way.
It's crazy If you've never readit.
It's really cool.
And that's really where thatidea of that there was.
(08:33):
These, you know, that Earth wassupposed to be prepared by
these watcher angels for mankindand they did, and then humanity
started and then they werewatching and kind of like
lusting over, like well, we wantfree will too, or hey, it's
really.
They kind of lusted over thehuman women, which is funny
enough.
So they started, you know,sleeping with them, and then
(08:55):
they would have offspring andthey would be, you know, like
David and Goliath, like aCyclops or you know whatever,
like there's all these differentand a Dead Sea Scrolls.
It goes in more detail of that.
But even in the original Biblethere's one throwaway line about
the and it always stuck with meis let's see, if I can remember
correctly, in the days of oldthere was what did it say?
(09:16):
I'm going to mess it up, Ican't remember it a hundred
percent, but it's somethingpretty much that the sons of God
laid with the daughters of manand created myths or men of
great renown, of legend.
And I always stuck in my mindof like what does that actually
mean?
Are we talking like Hercules?
Like what do we mean really,the beginning of of that
(09:41):
research?
Of like what could old worldpre-flood look like if there
really was beings that were?
you know, fantasy type andruling over mankind and all this
craziness, and how would that,how could you tell a story with
that theme, you know?
So it was really like dead seascrolls, like the big one, and
then, just you know, fantasygenre stuff, you know right on.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
So at this point you've written both web comics
and novels.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
What are the biggest differences in how you approach
storytelling in the two thannovel writing, obviously, and
what you have to do for scriptwriting is you really you want
to give as much direction aspossible to the artist and you
(10:30):
really want to explain thescenery, what the characters are
doing, whatever's going on, andyou know, doing that it's way
more kind of technical than anovel, obviously, and it gets a
little, you know it's a littledry.
But the more explanation thatyou give, the more the artist
can really draw what you want.
You know, hopefully within thefirst or second time, because if
(10:51):
you have to keep doingrevisions all the time, you know
it, it takes longer and longer.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
So I've always imagined that as something like
you're writing like two or threeparagraphs of what the frame
should look like, for like oneline of actual text of what's
going on.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
So you don't want to over explain.
So that's.
The thing is, there's like a andand when you start working with
like an artist or an art team,you will like, you'll start to
naturally like see what they sawfrom your script and how they
did it, and you'll start to knowlike I can do less explanation
and or more in this specificscene, the one that you really
want to like, and not everypanel in your script is going to
(11:28):
have like a paragraph of stuff,but like the action scene stuff
, you kind of do need to be veryspecific because with movement
going on in the panels, you wantto make sure that it's being
portrayed correctly and thatthey draw it the right way,
because if they don't, you knowyou're going to have to revise
it and then revise, and thatthat can become a cycle of and
(11:48):
it's never going to probably beexactly what you think in your
mind.
But as someone who's written alot of scripts and seen artists
draw what I was thinking in mymind, it's really weird because
they're like melding to what I'mdoing and there's been plenty
of times where I'm like that'sexactly what I was.
So it's it's kind of weird.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
It's like a weird cohesive thing so we talked a
little bit about that in the uh,the novels versus manga episode
and I mentioned that.
You know that part of the partof the artist or the author's
job is to, you know, describe asituation well enough so that
the reader can imagine it, andthen that basically tells the
story on there.
(12:24):
But with with web comics andyou know, manga, you're really
telling the entire story becauseyou don't leave anything up to
the imagination, like you'reputting it all there in the
frame so that way the readerdoesn't have to imagine it.
So, yeah, that, um, that wholeprocess just looks a seems a
little bit wild to me, and I'mnot joking like I really did
think it was something.
Man, you gotta provide likethree or four paragraphs of
(12:46):
what's going on in a frame.
Dude, just I'm gonna show youscript.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Let's fight a face and you'll be like, wow, that's
not that much in there.
It's really crazy.
Like they really start to syncup with you in a way and and you
really don't have to do as muchas you really think um, but in
certain like, let's say, youwant them to do like a pose,
like, let's say, they have asword and they're powering it up
or, in a certain way, holdingit a certain way.
You know, I'll go and look for,you know, a manga panel or
(13:10):
something that shows that stanceof what you're trying to do,
and they'll, they can riff itoff of that to make their own
version of your character.
So that's part of it, um, whichhelps.
But you, you get into thisweird, um, you know, you get
into this weird sharing spacewhere they just start to kind of
do it the way you're thinking,at least.
Maybe it's just.
I've always been told that mywriting is very descriptive and
(13:32):
the artists never have a problemwith it, so maybe it's just I'm
very visual in how I write itand they seem to just latch on.
Could be it.
But yeah, novel though, man,it's actually.
It's going to sound crazy, butI'm glad that I wrote, figured
out script writing before novelwriting, because I think it
helped me to be super concisewhen I'm explaining in a novel a
(13:54):
scene or an action piece orwhatever.
It seemed to really let meharness in on what I'm trying to
say quickly and not overdo over, explain it which I?
You know some books.
You read a book.
You're like we get it, you knowwhat I mean.
Like come on, you know, yeah,it's cold out and there's, you
know whatever.
Like you don't need like amillion words to explain all
(14:14):
that.
You need to be concise with it.
So I think, in a weird way, um,writing script first prepared
me way more for writing and Ithink if I would write a novel
first what you're saying is trueI would over every doamined Do
you have a favorite way to tellstories?
Speaker 1 (14:29):
What would be your preferred method to tell stories
?
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Would it be web?
Speaker 1 (14:33):
comics or full-blown novels.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yeah, novels are very difficult, although they're
very rewarding to do them, butthey're very hard to do.
Script writing is quicker.
I could write a whole episodescript in, you know, 30 minutes
to an hour, if I'm reallygetting what is more?
No man, that's a hard question.
I think I like novels betterbecause it's just more rewarding
(14:57):
to write a novel.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
I mean you wrote right.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
You get to flex your creative process well, 50 000,
60, 70 000 words, like it's alot um yeah but the time that it
takes is is one of the thingsthat I and it wouldn't take as
long.
If I did it full time, you know,I wouldn't, it wouldn't take so
long.
So maybe that's part of forsure that.
Yeah, maybe that's why, like Idread I don't dread it, but I
(15:21):
kind of dread it.
Sometimes I'm like this couldtake two years, you know,
because that's the only you knowwhat I mean, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Hey, that's why I dread it, because I'm like this
could take two years, you know,because that's the only you know
what I mean.
You know, hey, that's why Idread it, because I'm like you
know what I've written so far.
I'm like this is easily goingto be more than a hundred
thousand words and it's scary,dude, cause I'm like I'm never
going to have time to finishthis.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Well, that's you know .
Even even my wife she's likeyou know, hey, this person blew
up on the sixth book, so youknow.
So, like I get that, but alsolike I don't want to wait 10
more years, you know, I don'tknow.
So we're going to see, man, I'mjust going to keep doing it and
one day it'll pop off,hopefully, or if it doesn't,
whatever For sure.
(16:00):
Man, yeah, but I'm still goingto write webcomics, like I'm
still going to write webcomics,like you know, hopefully this
year I have two that are goingto go in production, hopefully,
and I'm still going to do themand it's very rewarding.
So I don't know, I think I likewriting novels more for the
challenge, but the immediatereward from webcomics I like
more, because you get it comesout fine and you're seeing
artwork from your words, Likeit's kind of cool.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
You know what I mean Right, right, no, absolutely, um
.
So I'm gonna.
I'm kind of jumping around herewith some of the questions, but
there are.
Since we're already on the sortof from the topic, there are
two different main writingstyles.
You've got your plotters andyou've got your pantsers I don't
like that word because you flyby the seat of your pants
(16:42):
probably winger.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Ain't a pantser man winger pantser, the.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
I think the official term is actually pantser.
That's funny.
I've never heard that, so wetalked about that previously.
That you know you like to wingit, but how much planning do you
actually?
Do you know how the each ofyour stories will end?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
yeah.
So for me I mean either way,writing a novel or writing a
script, I know the ending.
Like really early, like quickly, like I'm not going to start
writing the, the first page,until I know what the ending is.
Now, how to get to that endingand what story beats do I want
to hit?
I'm going to have an idea ofwhere, where I want certain set
(17:21):
pieces to go in it, or you knowevents or whatever.
Um, so I do.
Yeah, I mean it's outlinedspecifically to get to that end
point.
But for me, when I'm writing,especially a novel, I think a
novel is more like like thefallen.
The end isn't done on thefallen at all, like I know where
I wanted to go in that first 50episodes and we did, and the
(17:41):
second batch, I you know theending is.
I have an idea of an ending butI think I'm going to change it
as I go along.
But that's different becauseit's like a it's an episode
thing.
You know, it's like every weektype stuff yeah, it's episodic,
it's ongoing.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
You can change.
It's ongoing.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Yeah yeah, and and for that, like for that kind of
stuff, I think the ending I havean idea, but it's not that,
it's not concrete for me of whatI'm going to do yet.
You, you know I have a certainset piece.
I want to happen, but I don'tknow if it'll be the actual end
or right before.
But for novels, yeah, like theend of the novel or even that
story, I know where that's goingto go.
But the way to get there is thewinging or pantsing part,
(18:19):
because sometimes there'scertain stories that seem to
like write themselves indifferent ways, where, like I
was, like I'm going to hit, likeI'll use endless as a good
example of the vampire one,because I want to hit certain
time periods and I'm going tohit certain time periods in that
story, and I decided what timeperiods I wanted to play around
in for the for those parts.
(18:41):
But the exact storyline in thatspecific time period of what are
we going to do while we're inthis time period, it wasn't
fleshed out all the way, it wasmore like let's just write in
ancient Egypt and see where itgoes.
Let's write in, you know, japan, ancient Japan, and see where
that goes.
And then you know Victoria andLondon, like I wanted to see
where it goes, but I knew I wasgoing to hit those certain.
(19:03):
And then you know, as the storygoes on, and know that I want
to have a certain event or acharacter do something in that
time period, but like what arethe rest of the day of that
character?
You know, whatever, howeverlong they're in that?
No, I'll wing it and let itjust write itself and kind of
evolve, but I, I mean, I have anoutline, but it it's definitely
not to the point where it'slike chapter one through eight
(19:25):
is going to be this journey ofthis and then chapter nine did
not like that so did you knowthat?
Speaker 1 (19:31):
um, we, in another episode, one of our hot takes,
you know we were talking aboutfavorite books and one of your
one of your favorite books was,uh, stephen king did you know
that, uh did you know thatstephen King is also a pantser?
Ew, he's a pantser, he's ahundred percent pantser.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
He starts with a point.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
He starts with a point you know like cause you
have to have an idea, right.
Yeah, sure, so he starts withhis idea and he says frequently
his books do not end up where hethought it was going to end up
because he, he thinks and Idon't remember exactly what he
said, but he's he was basicallyalluding to for him the creative
process doesn't feel creativeanymore.
(20:14):
He writes an out interesting.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
It's almost like he's betraying what he feels like
what.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
That's interesting, dude, yeah, so for him I get
that yeah, he says when,basically when he writes an
outline, he feels like you know,he's destroying the creative
process for himself.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
So you know, when you say that and when I hear that
that phrase, to me it soundskind of like what I've been
saying is you're writing it, butit's it's not all the way
coming from you.
It's almost like you're tappinginto some antenna, like your
brain becomes an antenna for thestory and you're just, you know
, letting it flow and you'reputting your little flavors on
stuff.
But some of it and it, I'mtelling you, when you start
(20:52):
writing your novel, like reallygoing into it, you're gonna have
certain plans.
That's fine, but like you'llnotice that the story seems to
take some curves that you neverplanned for.
But like and it's.
It's very weird because you'rewriting it, so you're piloting
the ship, right.
But then it's like, well, howdid we get over here?
Because I wasn't even goingthat way oh and if you let it
(21:16):
happen, man, it's, it's magical,it's really cool.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
No, I'll see.
Here's the thing though.
I am a plotter, you know I Iplot things out very, very
dedicated, like that's the way Ido everything.
But to your point, when Istarted writing what I'm you
know, my novel, what I'm writingI just intended to write a
little dungeon diving story.
That turned into this otherthing and, yeah, I don't know
(21:44):
what it is Like.
You've read my prologue and I'mlike that's not where I was
planning on going with that atall.
It's weird, it just takes on alife of its own.
The difference is like I shiftmy plot and I started plotting
for the new, for the new storythat came alive during the old
winter, right during the oldstory.
So it's not that I don't, youknow, it's not that I don't fly
by the seat of my pants at all.
(22:05):
It's just that once I figureout by the seat of my pants at
all, it's just that once Ifigure out that that's what I'm
doing, I will kind of coursecorrect a little bit and outline
for that.
And if things need to changeagain, you know, that's fine.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
But I'm still gonna have a plan.
Yeah, it's super, it's justit's.
I like that it's called pants.
That's funny, that's awesome,cause it's literally that I mean
.
It's literally that, I meanit's.
You are doing that.
You know I'll have a concept oran idea and I'm like I'm gonna
write about this and then itkind of fills in as you start
really thinking about it.
You're driving to work andyou're, like, you know, thinking
(22:36):
about it, and then you gottawrite it.
Yeah, it's just like it'salways there, man, it's like
always growing it's weird, it'slike a seed.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
The problem is when you have an idea, uh, when
you're out grocery shopping orsomething and you have to like
stop everything you're doing, soyou like text a note to
yourself and be like absolutelyremember to do this thing.
It's that's the worst.
I mean it's the best, but it'salso the worst, because it's
like if you happen to if youhappen to forget one of those
tiny little ideas that you'relike, I'm gonna remember this
(23:02):
you're definitely.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Oh, yeah, I have.
I have my notes on my phone.
It's like ridiculous yeah,what's in there.
Yeah, you wake up middle of thenight and be like, oh wait, and
you write something there.
Yeah, I've done that, I've donethat.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
So one of the toughest parts of storytelling
is keeping you know, keeping youaged.
How do you ensure that your youknow, your characters and your
plot stay compelling?
Speaker 2 (23:23):
so you know it's funny.
It's not even something thatand you know you've read some of
my stuff.
Yeah, I know you read some ofit.
I mix genres together to thepoint where, like they probably
shouldn't work, but somehow theydo work in a weird way, and you
know what I mean by that I'vebeen slightly confused a few
times until I get to a point andI'm like, is he doing what I
think he's doing?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
and then I'm like, oh , he's doing it.
This is, this is gonna be goodyeah, it's really weird.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Um, so I don't really like set out to make it
compelling.
I know that the story iscompelling already.
I mean, and I've thought aboutit for like months and months.
You know different littlepieces of the story.
So you know I what I do is, youknow, I want to be as visual as
possible when writing,especially especially like
action scenes and stuff.
(24:06):
So the compelling part is likeI really focus in on like all
right, I need the reader, whenthey're reading this, to really
see how this is playing out,what it looks like in their mind
.
So I make sure to try to likemake it as visual as I can when
it comes to that stuff, likefighting scenes and stuff.
But yeah, just being likecompelling in the storyline
itself.
The storyline is compelling.
There's no one that's going towrite it like I'm going to write
(24:28):
it.
I already know that.
So as I'm writing it, you know,I know that if I've drawn you
in enough that you're stillreading the book, you're going
to finish the book Like you wantto know where this.
You know something's going onhere.
You're like you want to seethis like what is this?
And just trying to keep itdynamic.
Man's going to happen, you know.
Trying to make it fun, you know.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
No for sure.
And yeah, I don't know.
For me, I think that's the.
That would be the biggeststress point for me is, you know
, like I think everybody thinkstheir idea is compelling, you
know, but it's.
And then you start writing andyou're like, is it people
actually?
But are people actually goingto read this?
And you know that's that's ahuge challenge, going to read
this, and you know that's that'sa huge challenge, but is is
that the biggest challengeyou've faced as a writer?
Or let me rephrase that, whatis the biggest challenge you
(25:15):
faced as a writer?
Would it be, you know, is itjust a self-doubt straight up,
or is it like writer's block?
Or you know what are yourbiggest challenges?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
yeah, I don't have writer's block.
I've never had writer's blockand even if it's just a little
bit, I'll just it.
It, I just need to.
Not, I'm not into it right nowto do it tomorrow Like it's not.
I've never had, like not beenable to like tune into it.
I mean I got to have certainmusic and stuff, like there's a
ritual.
I didn't have like a certainplaylist and then I'm in.
But as far as biggest challengesand you know it's it's going to
(25:44):
sound weird, I think, but theprocess itself of writing and
creating is not it's challengingbecause it's, you know,
whatever, but it's fun, it'svery fun for me.
So I don't even look at that asa challenge.
You know, now that I've writtentwo books, I know I can write a
novel.
Now I just got to get better atit as I go and I need to find
the right, you know, story to.
You know, hopefully catch fireat some point.
(26:11):
But the biggest yeah, right,the biggest challenge is and I
think I'm finally getting overit and it's been a long time of
getting over it is you put somuch effort and work into
something in the process ofwriting and editing your stuff
and whatever you're finally likeall right, I'm releasing that.
And then, depending on what pathyou take, if you're and try to
do traditional, that's got awhole bunch of stuff built into
(26:31):
that.
That's very hard to deal with.
And if you go self-publishingwhich you know it's valid, you
know that itself gets.
There's a lot of challenges inthat.
And when you're writing you'renot thinking of that part of
this process, because you'rewriting your story and you're
telling your story.
And then you know a hundredthousand words, whatever 60,000,
we finished your story, youknow, and you're like, okay, you
(26:54):
reread it and you edit itenough, and you're like, all
right, that next part is soremoved from the first part that
it's very jarring because it'sa whole different situation.
Because now it's, if you'regoing to self-publish it, a, how
do you do that, pricing it, howdo you market it?
Then you finally do all that.
(27:14):
You're doing videos and notreally going anywhere.
You know that it's a wholebunch of disappointment on all
that.
And then the sales you knowthere's like a lot of that other
stuff that's not reallyinvolved in the first part
you've got to go from.
You've got to go from creativelike you, you know the creator
aspect to then you've got tobecome a salesman, a salesman, a
, no, a, a expert of your story,which you should be because you
(27:38):
wrote it, but still, um, how doyou talk about it?
Uh, you know, do you all thesethings, all these different
pieces?
And then, if you go to thetraditional route and you're
submitting it to agents to tryto get a book deal, you're
dealing with rejections.
You're dealing with beingstraight up ignored.
You're dealing with I sent thisthree weeks ago, three months
(27:59):
ago, six months ago, what theheck?
Then you finally get an emailand you open.
It's like the college.
You know you're gettingrejected from college thing
every single time.
So like you start to get alittle resentful, but you're
like it's part of the process,you know, you're just like going
through the process.
So to me, the hardest part ofany of the writing thing is
(28:20):
really that part, because youknow, go to a bookstore, go to
walmart, look at the booksection, and you look at books.
You're like that got published.
You know, really, you know, andit's not like.
But I'm not saying it's like,I'm not trying to dog the books
like good for them, but alsolike mine.
I know mine's better than that,I know.
But you're not being seen.
And you know theself-publishing thing.
(28:42):
There's more power in it,there's more freedom in it,
there's more control for you init because it's your stuff.
But you're also now battling aocean of self-published books on
top of regular published booksand there's a lot of all of that
.
I think all of that stuff is thehardest stuff.
The actual writing.
It is fun and it's not.
(29:03):
I don't want to say easy, butcompared to that stuff it's easy
.
And I think the biggestchallenge for me is you don't
want to say easy, but comparedto that stuff it's easy.
You know, and I think thebiggest challenge for me is like
you don't write to make a booksell a million copies, like
that's.
I mean you shouldn't be writingfor that reason, obviously, and
I wouldn't say that I'm writingfor that reason.
But you are writing to like ifyou do release it, you want to
see success in it.
(29:24):
You know how much effort andtime you took to make that and
there's nothing harder than likeyou know it comes out, and not
that it falls on deaf ears, butlike kind of, did you know what
I mean?
That's the hardest part and thatpart I was not ready for when I
started writing novels.
Like I knew obviously that'snot going to just be like first
book boom.
But it's weird to go through itbecause I wasn't prepared for
(29:47):
that.
I didn't I don't know I w, Ididn't really put much thought
into that part.
I was like, oh, it'll be fine,I'll just release it and it will
be fine.
Eventually it's not a big deal,but it took me a long time to
get to that spot in my brainwhere I'm like keep writing
number one and if it even Like,but it's a little bit, you know,
you're kind of like, here yougo Good old shonen characters,
(30:08):
man, because you just go and youjust keep going.
You know you're failing andyou're going and you just got to
keep doing it.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
It's not easy.
So I feel like BrandonSanderson actually has the maybe
not the best opinion on this,but he's got some very good
points about this topic and thistopic specifically.
You know Brandon said in one ofhis because he published you
know his series of courses thathe was doing for creative
writing and one of them you knowhe specifically said you know,
(30:38):
you become a writer because youhave to tell your stories,
because you have to get yourstories out.
You know that's, that's why youwrite, because you have to get
your stories out.
You know, if you, if you'rebecoming a writer to sell a
million books and get a bookdeal, you're going to fall and
you're going to stop writingbecause that's not why you're.
You know that that's not a goodreason.
(30:59):
That's not a good enough reasonto keep with it.
You know the reason has to bebecause you need to get your
stories out.
It's got to be out there.
You got to get it out of you.
Yeah Right, you just you haveto tell a story like you want
this story to be out there, andit's not.
You know, of course, every Ithink everybody would be lying
if they said that they didn'twant to sell a million copies,
(31:20):
because obviously right, youknow, that would be fantastic.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
What other?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
way to prove you know that your story was a success
by selling a million copies.
You know there's no, there's nogreater standard of like I made
it, I made it, yep, but I thinkyou have to define and it
sounds like you've already donethis, but I think you have to
define what success, whatsuccess is going to look ahead
of time, right, um, and itsounds like you know you've
(31:46):
gotten, you, sounds like you'vegot that nailed.
You, you know success isgetting the book published,
whether it's indie ortraditional, and telling a story
.
And you know, yeah, do you wanta million readers?
Of course, of course you do.
But you know you've designed,defined success separately from
have I made it like have I madeit is not your own, and I will
(32:07):
tell you this.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
that's recent for me.
That's not like I've been likethat for a long.
That's literally recent, as inlike this year, because I was
getting to a point where I wasgetting angry and resentful
about like I've spent all thisand I think it's just because
it's very important for me tothat.
This is a success in whateverword that means.
But then you have to definethat word for you and you're
(32:29):
absolutely right.
You know, is it successfulbecause you got a book deal or
is it successful because youactually wrote a freaking book
that people who did read arelike actually, yes, it's really
good.
What is successful and you know,that's if I could impart any
kind of wisdom, and I hopeanyone listening to that wants
to write.
A, do it, Stop making excusesand do it.
And B define that before youfinish, Because if you don't,
(32:55):
you're leaving it up to otherfactors to decide what that
means for you and those factorsare not realistic.
I mean, you don't know how manybooks somebody wrote until they
made it.
You have to actually look it upand really like, figure that
out.
They made it.
You have to actually look it upand really like, figure that
out and.
But it's one of those thingsand the comfort I take in it is,
even if the first four booksdon't hit and number five does
the other four are then going toget read more because they want
(33:16):
to see what else you wrote yeah, absolutely just keep going.
But I was not prepared for that.
Um, if I'm being honest about Iwasn't prepared for that when I
started writing these novels,because you know everyone wants
to think you're special, okay,cool, but you know it's like you
spent a long time doing it, man, and you want to be rewarded or
(33:37):
accolade.
You want to be recognized, Iguess would be the word for the
time that you spend into andwhen you're not, you're like,
you know you start gettingannoyed.
So annoyed, so like please,whatever it is for you
specifically as a writer, decidethat before and allow what
happens happens and don't let ittaint your love of writing.
(33:58):
You know that's not good.
You know what I mean no, I, Iagree.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Um, so you know, you've you've worked with a lot
of indie comics.
You know comic comic writer,you know the whole shebang kind
of done a lot in the biz.
So the indie comic scene haschanged a lot over the years, so
especially, you know, with likeweb comics and manhwa becoming
more popular.
What is your current take onthe state of the industry?
Speaker 2 (34:26):
So actually it's changed a lot because you're
seeing these webcomics, webtoons, monroes being animated, which
is not a thing If you cut alittle at three, four, five
years ago that wasn't happeningthat much.
So I love seeing it becauseit's growing more and more and
more.
And, like you were saying aboutthe beginning, after the end
that creator is not.
You said he's American.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Yeah, he's korean american yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
So that would never have happened before.
You know, when we were growingup, that wouldn't be a thing you
know.
So the global audience isshifted to the point where
you're going to start seeingmore opportunity for more people
, and I think that's amazingbecause, know, anime is a global
thing at this point, you knowit's been, and the more people
(35:12):
that watch it, the better, andit just it leaves the door open
for more creators of differentyou know, places that they get
their stories made.
I mean, we all want to animatemade one day it would be awesome
.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
And you see these happening.
You know it's slowly here andthere and that's a big deal, man
, because the more successfulthose are, the more they're
going to make more of them.
So I think it's just you'regoing to start seeing way more
web to vertical scrollingstories be adapted, and I think
it's going to be, really fun.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
We're going to get some really cool as long as the
studios are good, dude, that'swhat I'm hoping, because there
are a lot of stories that I wantto see get animated.
Uh, and you know, just personalpreference.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
I would love to see deck of fates, get animated dude
.
I just I want to cry.
I would be so proud of crying.
That would be dream that mydream is to have something.
I have two dreams book, publicbook, big book, success novel
and something animated that isthat I mean, that would just be
amazing, stunning, yeah,absolutely all right, so you've
got a pretty decent fan basearound your works.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
How do you engage with yours and what is your
favorite part about connectingwith your fans?
Speaker 2 (36:24):
sure.
So really it's, um, my favoriteis when I have an episode of a
weekly series coming out andevery week a new episode drops
and I get to see the commentsand people trying to like, you
know, guess what's happening orput two and two together,
whatever, and I like engaging alittle bit, not spoiling, but
(36:44):
like in the in the comments,that that's my favorite thing.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Oh yeah, I got to ask you have you ever had a fan
leave a comment in, you know, inthe comments, and you're like,
oh my God, that's hot, I need tosteal that idea.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Um no, I've never had someone leave something that I
would want to do, cause I don'twant here's what.
Here's the thing.
You have to be careful withthat because if you're writing
it to your audience and not whatyou really want to do, that's a
slippery slope, although I haveseen people make comments and
I'm like that's actually, that'sa cool take, but that's not
where I'm going and you don'twant them to guess you're going
(37:22):
to.
You know you don't want to liketurn your story and then do
that and then someone's like Iknew it.
But then you know, you knowwhat you did.
Yeah, it's like you want tomake them be more shocked than
be like I knew it, type stuff,uh.
But I have seen definitely somecool takes on things and I kind
of like, when they're justwildly off of they like think
I'm gonna do somethingcompletely different and I'm
like, oh, they are not payingattention or they don't know
(37:45):
this, because it makes it morefun, because now they bro, do
you even read?
it's like what are you talkingabout?
But then it, you know, it meansthat my story is unique enough
that they're not guessing whereit's going.
You know, that's kind of likethat's I like doing that man.
That's my favorite way ofinteracting, you know, but I
need a weekly series to do that.
So hopefully my other two willcome back this year you'll get
(38:05):
it yeah, maybe we'll seehopefully it's the year for the
comeback.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
That's what I've been told well, let's go, let's move
right, let's do it so foraspiring writers, um, as we're
as we're kind of winding downhere on the interview for
aspiring writers and webcomiccreators, what is the best piece
of advice you wish you had?
Speaker 2 (38:26):
you were starting out um my best piece of advice you
wish you had when you werestarting out.
My best piece of advice wouldbe stop second guessing.
You got an idea for a story andno one has that idea the way
that you have it, and even ifit's similar or it's another
hero reborn in another worldthing, you can still make an
original version of that that noone else has thought of.
So you know, there's only acertain amount of stories that
(38:47):
we can tell anyway.
But make them yours original,make them unique and just go for
it.
That's really my only advice,because you know we, the whole
shonen genre is the same storyover and over again.
Just, you know told a different, you know lenses, but they're
all different.
I mean, you know black cloverand fairy tale very similar, but
(39:08):
they're also wildly differentstories.
You know like they're justdifferent, different types of
characters.
So just tell your story the waythat you, you know, envision it
, and who cares if it sharessimilarities with something else
?
Speaker 1 (39:20):
everything shares similarities yeah, there's no
new stories told under the sun,that you just have to get
creative with the way you tellthat story.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah, or blend genres that shouldn't be blended
together, but you know, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
I don't know anybody that doesthat.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
No one at all.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
No one.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
I mean who writes the end of the world?
Ai robot story about a war, andthen there's mythological thing
.
I mean story about a war, andthen there's mythological thing.
I mean come on, man doesn'tmake any sense.
Why would?
Speaker 1 (39:49):
you do that.
It doesn't make sense itdoesn't make sense all right.
Well, that does about wrap usup again.
We've been talking for quite afew minutes.
Um, no, it's fine, it was agood interview and, uh, thank
you for agreeing to do it, whichI know that sounds weird
because you're on the show withme but, but, we could have
(40:10):
covered anything, but I was likeno dude and.
I just want to say this was myidea, a hundred percent.
I was like bro, we got to talkabout your stories Like I didn't
push it I promise we have totalk about Jordan's stories.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Well, I appreciate you giving me a chance.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
And I mean, hey, anyone listens to it.
Help, maybe they get someadvice from it.
Go for it, you know, hopefullyit'll help in some way.
Just write, you know, keepwriting, all right?
Well, thank you, jumpers andeverybody.
Have a great night.
We'll talk to you next week.
See you, peace.
Thanks for jumping into therealm with us today.
Be sure to follow realm jumperswherever you get your podcasts
and don't forget to share yourthoughts, theories and favorite
and favorite moments with us.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Stay epic and keep exploring the worlds you love.
Leave us a review on yourpodcast platform and if you're
stuck on what to say, let usknow what your favorite anime is
.
See you in the next realm, soso.
Welcome to Realm Jumpers.
I'm Andrew and this is myco-host, jordan.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Hey everyone.
We're here to dive into theworlds of fantasy and anime,
bringing you epic stories andunforgettable adventures.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
We'll be talking world building, unforgettable
villains and everything thatmakes these genres legendary.
So let's jump into the realmand everything that makes these
genres legendary.
So let's jump into the realm.
Tonight, we're going to bediving into the mind of an indie
storyteller, his creativeprocess, the struggles of
bringing stories to life andwhat it takes it to make in the
world of webcomics and novels.
Join us as we sit down with ourvery own Jordan Troche, to
(00:42):
explore his writing journey, thefuture of indie publishing, and
maybe even challenge him with ahot take or two um.
But let's check out what's goingon in the world of realm rumors
.
I mean, it's prettylight-hearted, um, and honestly
just kind of funny.
So a police department in japanthey took the detective conan
um character and they'restarting to use him to like put
(01:06):
out calls for, you know,recruitment calls.
So like they're using detectiveconan as a recruitment call for
the police department, which,hey, I mean get him young, right
?
Yeah, no, I mean it's, it'sabsolutely, you know, it's funny
and I thought it was cute wayto you know to do that.
And then it just, of course, Iimmediately went to oh my god,
can you imagine if we put thepunisher on any of our police
(01:29):
departments recruitment stuff ohno this.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
This is why the west is in america specifically.
Just they're too much man no,absolutely it would turn it
would turn into.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
That would not be the person that you want to be yeah
, right, no, that's kind of yeah, I just get inspired by
Punisher, right?
Do we even have a policeofficer or detective character
that we could legitimately puton something like that?
Dude, like I mean to to recruitpeople that's like upstanding
and, you know, got a mind forjustice and not completely like
(02:03):
revenge, like anti-hero revenge,right, or yeah, or, like you
know, sherlock can't do him.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
He's not, he's not american.
I don't even know.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I don't think we got anybody, to be honest, I, I
couldn't think of a character,um, and you know, somebody's
gonna fire off in comments orsomewhere and they're gonna be
like you forgot about so-and-soand I'm gonna look like yeah,
obviously I did, because I mainperson that anybody in america
thinks of when you think of acop.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
As far as comic book characters, I guess the green
martian I mean, if you want tosay like green lanterns, like a
space cop, no, but I mean itdidn't the green martian was a
like.
He took on the job of a coplike it is yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, I mean, if you Okay,although let me say this Hold on
Cop no, but detective, I meanBatman.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
That'd be also terrible.
That'd be just as bad asPunisher Breaking spines Right,
yeah, no, that's yeah, that's abad call.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Because, yeah, because you can't, yeah, you
really can't be crippling people.
Yeah, yeah, we're done now.
That's terrible.
It's terrible.
Please do not be like batman ifyou are thinking of joining the
police force that is a terribleidea.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Don't do it, although it would be a cool story, but
please don't do it right.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Yeah, no, that'd be bad.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
That's just all around that terrible well, maybe
we should create a character, Iguess.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
I mean we could try.
Right, I can't draw for crap.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
So, you know, I could write a character, maybe, I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Should we dive into the interview portion this main
topic?
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yeah, I mean let's, let's do it.
Man, I'm nervous, but let's go,let's go.
You guys be nervous for Allright, let's dive into this
thing, man, it shouldn't be toobad.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
So the first question you know we talked a little bit
about how you got started onyour writing journey in our
origin stories episode, episodezero, episode zero and you know
you mentioned that it was a darefrom your sister to create
something better.
Can you expand on that more?
You know, were there anyspecific anime books or, you
(04:05):
know, comics that shaped yourapproach to storytelling?
Absolutely so.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I wouldn't even say better, just non filler.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Can you read it?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
It's automatically better.
Um, but yeah, I mean, in myoriginal series, which is now
called the fallen, which you cancan read, there's 50 chapters
out on voicemail via ycemecomyou can find it.
Um, but anyway it's, it's, it'sbreakneck speed storytelling.
Honestly, I probably would slowit down a little bit more when
I do season two, but I was justlike, so gung-ho about we're not
(04:38):
doing filler, we're moving andgrooving, um, but as far as,
like, what inspired it?
Yeah, I mean, you know, know,obviously, bleach with the
powers, with the swords, youknow the that level of stuff,
although I'd say really bigmedieval fantasy, I mean that's
really the biggest thing.
That really started that storyfor me.
And you know I wanted to createa really scary medieval war
(04:59):
world.
That was quote pre flood fromthe Bible.
So I kind of wanted to go alittle crazy with it.
Uh, and you know who knows whatit was really like back then,
really.
So let's just have some funtype stuff.
And I wanted to have creaturesand monsters and otherworldly
things and someone hunting them.
You know that kind of stuff.
I wish I could say the Witcherinspired it.
You know, I know yourbackground back there.
(05:20):
You could see him with themonster hunting angle, because
ezekiel does do that a lot inthere.
But I didn't really knowwitcher that much back then.
So it was just kind of like youknow just, you know, monster
hunting is a very normal thingthat we think, so I wanted to
incorporate it a little bit.
Um, and then you know myfavorite berserk.
I mean, I wanted it to be adark world with really bad stuff
, you know as well.
So I would say those are thereal series and just shonen and
(05:43):
I love battle.
You know action, fighting,manga and stuff.
So I wanted to create one of myin that world gotcha.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
So the fallen was before deck of fates.
Yeah, yep, so okay, I thoughtit was the reverse, I thought it
was well in in publishing likein the world.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Yes, deck of fates would technically have been
first, but the fallen was theretelling of my original
nephilim story that I originallystarted writing for.
So in my mind that was alwaysreally the first um.
That was really the first thingI ever wrote as a script, you
know, and learning how to script, write and learning how to
panel it and you know all thatkind of fun stuff.
Yeah, in my mind it's alwaysfirst um, it did come out later,
(06:20):
uh, when it was finally calledthe fallen.
But there's, you know, I havelike three different versions of
nephilim.
In my mind it's always first.
It did come out later when itwas finally called the Fallen.
But I have like three differentversions of Nephilim in my
computer from back in the day.
A manga, a comic.
Now it's finally the Fallen andit's a webtoon and all that,
but it's the number one in mymind, just because it's the
first thing I ever wrote.
That was what the dare wasabout, really.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, I gotcha.
So the Fall fallen for me.
I remember the first time Ilooked at it.
Um, well, let me backstep therefor a second.
You know, growing up as ateenager, the there was a lot of
books that were just startingto come out, like young adult
fantasy stuff that was gearedtowards, yeah, you know,
nephilim and fallen angelstories.
Um, the unfortunate side ofthat was most of them ended up
(07:01):
being like on the tween sidewith the love triangle stuff,
which was, of course, not asmuch fun, um, you know, but I I
definitely could feel the vibeand I liked it and I appreciate,
because you know who doesn'tlove a good story, I don't know,
I think it was.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
It's good stories.
Yeah, I appreciate that man.
Thank you, it's just one ofthose ones I wanted to mix like
bible, ancient world, old world,themes, I guess you know kind
of stuff in my own version ofwhat pre-flood could be, or
whatever, in a world of you knowhalf angel monsters.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Did you do a lot of research for that?
Like what, or what kind of whatwas your research?
Looking at that?
Sorry, are you there?
My system is crashing for asecond.
What'd you say?
No, I was saying, like whatkind of research were you on?
Did you just go looking forstories in the Bible or did you
just what was your research?
What did your research looklike?
For yeah, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
So I mean, I grew up Roman Catholic so I had a lot of
already you know Bible storiesthat I've read and had to go to
Sunday school and all that funstuff for.
But in that age of when Istarted writing it in my early
20s, I was really diving intolike different myths from you
know old world stuff, from likeyou know ancient history or
(08:12):
ancient possible history, Iguess.
And when I kind of stumbledonto the Dead Sea Scrolls is it
really, you know, I read themand I read Revelations and stuff
back when I was younger.
But when I read Dead SeaScrolls it reads like a action
movie in a way.
It's crazy If you've never readit.
It's really cool.
And that's really where thatidea of that there was.
(08:33):
These, you know, that Earth wassupposed to be prepared by
these watcher angels for mankindand they did, and then humanity
started and then they werewatching and kind of like
lusting over, like well, we wantfree will too, or hey, it's
really.
They kind of lusted over thehuman women, which is funny
enough.
So they started, you know,sleeping with them, and then
(08:55):
they would have offspring andthey would be, you know, like
David and Goliath, like aCyclops or you know whatever,
like there's all these differentand a Dead Sea Scrolls.
It goes in more detail of that.
But even in the original Biblethere's one throwaway line about
the and it always stuck with meis let's see, if I can remember
correctly, in the days of oldthere was what did it say?
(09:16):
I'm going to mess it up, Ican't remember it a hundred
percent, but it's somethingpretty much that the sons of God
laid with the daughters of manand created myths or men of
great renown, of legend.
And I always stuck in my mindof like what does that actually
mean?
Are we talking like Hercules?
Like what do we mean really,the beginning of of that
(09:41):
research?
Of like what could old worldpre-flood look like if there
really was beings that were?
you know, fantasy type andruling over mankind and all this
craziness, and how would that,how could you tell a story with
that theme, you know?
So it was really like dead seascrolls, like the big one, and
then, just you know, fantasygenre stuff, you know right on.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
So at this point you've written both web comics
and novels.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
What are the biggest differences in how you approach
storytelling in the two thannovel writing, obviously, and
what you have to do for scriptwriting is you really you want
to give as much direction aspossible to the artist and you
(10:30):
really want to explain thescenery, what the characters are
doing, whatever's going on, andyou know, doing that it's way
more kind of technical than anovel, obviously, and it gets a
little, you know it's a littledry.
But the more explanation thatyou give, the more the artist
can really draw what you want.
You know, hopefully within thefirst or second time, because if
(10:51):
you have to keep doingrevisions all the time, you know
it, it takes longer and longer.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
So I've always imagined that as something like
you're writing like two or threeparagraphs of what the frame
should look like, for like oneline of actual text of what's
going on.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
So you don't want to over explain.
So that's.
The thing is, there's like a andand when you start working with
like an artist or an art team,you will like, you'll start to
naturally like see what they sawfrom your script and how they
did it, and you'll start to knowlike I can do less explanation
and or more in this specificscene, the one that you really
want to like, and not everypanel in your script is going to
(11:28):
have like a paragraph of stuff,but like the action scene stuff
, you kind of do need to be veryspecific because with movement
going on in the panels, you wantto make sure that it's being
portrayed correctly and thatthey draw it the right way,
because if they don't, you knowyou're going to have to revise
it and then revise, and thatthat can become a cycle of and
(11:48):
it's never going to probably beexactly what you think in your
mind.
But as someone who's written alot of scripts and seen artists
draw what I was thinking in mymind, it's really weird because
they're like melding to what I'mdoing and there's been plenty
of times where I'm like that'sexactly what I was.
So it's it's kind of weird.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
It's like a weird cohesive thing so we talked a
little bit about that in the uh,the novels versus manga episode
and I mentioned that.
You know that part of the partof the artist or the author's
job is to, you know, describe asituation well enough so that
the reader can imagine it, andthen that basically tells the
story on there.
(12:24):
But with with web comics andyou know, manga, you're really
telling the entire story becauseyou don't leave anything up to
the imagination, like you'reputting it all there in the
frame so that way the readerdoesn't have to imagine it.
So, yeah, that, um, that wholeprocess just looks a seems a
little bit wild to me, and I'mnot joking like I really did
think it was something.
Man, you gotta provide likethree or four paragraphs of
(12:46):
what's going on in a frame.
Dude, just I'm gonna show youscript.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Let's fight a face and you'll be like, wow, that's
not that much in there.
It's really crazy.
Like they really start to syncup with you in a way and and you
really don't have to do as muchas you really think um, but in
certain like, let's say, youwant them to do like a pose,
like, let's say, they have asword and they're powering it up
or, in a certain way, holdingit a certain way.
You know, I'll go and look for,you know, a manga panel or
(13:10):
something that shows that stanceof what you're trying to do,
and they'll, they can riff itoff of that to make their own
version of your character.
So that's part of it, um, whichhelps.
But you, you get into thisweird, um, you know, you get
into this weird sharing spacewhere they just start to kind of
do it the way you're thinking,at least.
Maybe it's just.
I've always been told that mywriting is very descriptive and
(13:32):
the artists never have a problemwith it, so maybe it's just I'm
very visual in how I write itand they seem to just latch on.
Could be it.
But yeah, novel though, man,it's actually.
It's going to sound crazy, butI'm glad that I wrote, figured
out script writing before novelwriting, because I think it
helped me to be super concisewhen I'm explaining in a novel a
(13:54):
scene or an action piece orwhatever.
It seemed to really let meharness in on what I'm trying to
say quickly and not overdo over, explain it which I?
You know some books.
You read a book.
You're like we get it, you knowwhat I mean.
Like come on, you know, yeah,it's cold out and there's, you
know whatever.
Like you don't need like amillion words to explain all
(14:14):
that.
You need to be concise with it.
So I think, in a weird way, um,writing script first prepared
me way more for writing and Ithink if I would write a novel
first what you're saying is trueI would over every doamined Do
you have a favorite way to tellstories?
Speaker 1 (14:29):
What would be your preferred method to tell stories
?
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Would it be web?
Speaker 1 (14:33):
comics or full-blown novels.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yeah, novels are very difficult, although they're
very rewarding to do them, butthey're very hard to do.
Script writing is quicker.
I could write a whole episodescript in, you know, 30 minutes
to an hour, if I'm reallygetting what is more?
No man, that's a hard question.
I think I like novels betterbecause it's just more rewarding
(14:57):
to write a novel.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
I mean you wrote right.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
You get to flex your creative process well, 50 000,
60, 70 000 words, like it's alot um yeah but the time that it
takes is is one of the thingsthat I and it wouldn't take as
long.
If I did it full time, you know,I wouldn't, it wouldn't take so
long.
So maybe that's part of forsure that.
Yeah, maybe that's why, like Idread I don't dread it, but I
(15:21):
kind of dread it.
Sometimes I'm like this couldtake two years, you know,
because that's the only you knowwhat I mean, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Hey, that's why I dread it, because I'm like this
could take two years, you know,because that's the only you know
what I mean.
You know, hey, that's why Idread it, because I'm like you
know what I've written so far.
I'm like this is easily goingto be more than a hundred
thousand words and it's scary,dude, cause I'm like I'm never
going to have time to finishthis.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Well, that's you know .
Even even my wife she's likeyou know, hey, this person blew
up on the sixth book, so youknow.
So, like I get that, but alsolike I don't want to wait 10
more years, you know, I don'tknow.
So we're going to see, man, I'mjust going to keep doing it and
one day it'll pop off,hopefully, or if it doesn't,
whatever For sure.
(16:00):
Man, yeah, but I'm still goingto write webcomics, like I'm
still going to write webcomics,like you know, hopefully this
year I have two that are goingto go in production, hopefully,
and I'm still going to do themand it's very rewarding.
So I don't know, I think I likewriting novels more for the
challenge, but the immediatereward from webcomics I like
more, because you get it comesout fine and you're seeing
artwork from your words, Likeit's kind of cool.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
You know what I mean Right, right, no, absolutely, um
.
So I'm gonna.
I'm kind of jumping around herewith some of the questions, but
there are.
Since we're already on the sortof from the topic, there are
two different main writingstyles.
You've got your plotters andyou've got your pantsers I don't
like that word because you flyby the seat of your pants
(16:42):
probably winger.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Ain't a pantser man winger pantser, the.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
I think the official term is actually pantser.
That's funny.
I've never heard that, so wetalked about that previously.
That you know you like to wingit, but how much planning do you
actually?
Do you know how the each ofyour stories will end?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
yeah.
So for me I mean either way,writing a novel or writing a
script, I know the ending.
Like really early, like quickly, like I'm not going to start
writing the, the first page,until I know what the ending is.
Now, how to get to that endingand what story beats do I want
to hit?
I'm going to have an idea ofwhere, where I want certain set
(17:21):
pieces to go in it, or you knowevents or whatever.
Um, so I do.
Yeah, I mean it's outlinedspecifically to get to that end
point.
But for me, when I'm writing,especially a novel, I think a
novel is more like like thefallen.
The end isn't done on thefallen at all, like I know where
I wanted to go in that first 50episodes and we did, and the
(17:41):
second batch, I you know theending is.
I have an idea of an ending butI think I'm going to change it
as I go along.
But that's different becauseit's like a it's an episode
thing.
You know, it's like every weektype stuff yeah, it's episodic,
it's ongoing.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
You can change.
It's ongoing.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Yeah yeah, and and for that, like for that kind of
stuff, I think the ending I havean idea, but it's not that,
it's not concrete for me of whatI'm going to do yet.
You, you know I have a certainset piece.
I want to happen, but I don'tknow if it'll be the actual end
or right before.
But for novels, yeah, like theend of the novel or even that
story, I know where that's goingto go.
But the way to get there is thewinging or pantsing part,
(18:19):
because sometimes there'scertain stories that seem to
like write themselves indifferent ways, where, like I
was, like I'm going to hit, likeI'll use endless as a good
example of the vampire one,because I want to hit certain
time periods and I'm going tohit certain time periods in that
story, and I decided what timeperiods I wanted to play around
in for the for those parts.
(18:41):
But the exact storyline in thatspecific time period of what are
we going to do while we're inthis time period, it wasn't
fleshed out all the way, it wasmore like let's just write in
ancient Egypt and see where itgoes.
Let's write in, you know, japan, ancient Japan, and see where
that goes.
And then you know Victoria andLondon, like I wanted to see
where it goes, but I knew I wasgoing to hit those certain.
(19:03):
And then you know, as the storygoes on, and know that I want
to have a certain event or acharacter do something in that
time period, but like what arethe rest of the day of that
character?
You know, whatever, howeverlong they're in that?
No, I'll wing it and let itjust write itself and kind of
evolve, but I, I mean, I have anoutline, but it it's definitely
not to the point where it'slike chapter one through eight
(19:25):
is going to be this journey ofthis and then chapter nine did
not like that so did you knowthat?
Speaker 1 (19:31):
um, we, in another episode, one of our hot takes,
you know we were talking aboutfavorite books and one of your
one of your favorite books was,uh, stephen king did you know
that, uh did you know thatstephen King is also a pantser?
Ew, he's a pantser, he's ahundred percent pantser.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
He starts with a point.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
He starts with a point you know like cause you
have to have an idea, right.
Yeah, sure, so he starts withhis idea and he says frequently
his books do not end up where hethought it was going to end up
because he, he thinks and Idon't remember exactly what he
said, but he's he was basicallyalluding to for him the creative
process doesn't feel creativeanymore.
(20:14):
He writes an out interesting.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
It's almost like he's betraying what he feels like
what.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
That's interesting, dude, yeah, so for him I get
that yeah, he says when,basically when he writes an
outline, he feels like you know,he's destroying the creative
process for himself.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
So you know, when you say that and when I hear that
that phrase, to me it soundskind of like what I've been
saying is you're writing it, butit's it's not all the way
coming from you.
It's almost like you're tappinginto some antenna, like your
brain becomes an antenna for thestory and you're just, you know
, letting it flow and you'reputting your little flavors on
stuff.
But some of it and it, I'mtelling you, when you start
(20:52):
writing your novel, like reallygoing into it, you're gonna have
certain plans.
That's fine, but like you'llnotice that the story seems to
take some curves that you neverplanned for.
But like and it's.
It's very weird because you'rewriting it, so you're piloting
the ship, right.
But then it's like, well, howdid we get over here?
Because I wasn't even goingthat way oh and if you let it
(21:16):
happen, man, it's, it's magical,it's really cool.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
No, I'll see.
Here's the thing though.
I am a plotter, you know I Iplot things out very, very
dedicated, like that's the way Ido everything.
But to your point, when Istarted writing what I'm you
know, my novel, what I'm writingI just intended to write a
little dungeon diving story.
That turned into this otherthing and, yeah, I don't know
(21:44):
what it is Like.
You've read my prologue and I'mlike that's not where I was
planning on going with that atall.
It's weird, it just takes on alife of its own.
The difference is like I shiftmy plot and I started plotting
for the new, for the new storythat came alive during the old
winter, right during the oldstory.
So it's not that I don't, youknow, it's not that I don't fly
by the seat of my pants at all.
(22:05):
It's just that once I figureout by the seat of my pants at
all, it's just that once Ifigure out that that's what I'm
doing, I will kind of coursecorrect a little bit and outline
for that.
And if things need to changeagain, you know, that's fine.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
But I'm still gonna have a plan.
Yeah, it's super, it's justit's.
I like that it's called pants.
That's funny, that's awesome,cause it's literally that I mean
.
It's literally that, I meanit's.
You are doing that.
You know I'll have a concept oran idea and I'm like I'm gonna
write about this and then itkind of fills in as you start
really thinking about it.
You're driving to work andyou're, like, you know, thinking
(22:36):
about it, and then you gottawrite it.
Yeah, it's just like it'salways there, man, it's like
always growing it's weird, it'slike a seed.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
The problem is when you have an idea, uh, when
you're out grocery shopping orsomething and you have to like
stop everything you're doing, soyou like text a note to
yourself and be like absolutelyremember to do this thing.
It's that's the worst.
I mean it's the best, but it'salso the worst, because it's
like if you happen to if youhappen to forget one of those
tiny little ideas that you'relike, I'm gonna remember this
(23:02):
you're definitely.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Oh, yeah, I have.
I have my notes on my phone.
It's like ridiculous yeah,what's in there.
Yeah, you wake up middle of thenight and be like, oh wait, and
you write something there.
Yeah, I've done that, I've donethat.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
So one of the toughest parts of storytelling
is keeping you know, keeping youaged.
How do you ensure that your youknow, your characters and your
plot stay compelling?
Speaker 2 (23:23):
so you know it's funny.
It's not even something thatand you know you've read some of
my stuff.
Yeah, I know you read some ofit.
I mix genres together to thepoint where, like they probably
shouldn't work, but somehow theydo work in a weird way, and you
know what I mean by that I'vebeen slightly confused a few
times until I get to a point andI'm like, is he doing what I
think he's doing?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
and then I'm like, oh , he's doing it.
This is, this is gonna be goodyeah, it's really weird.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Um, so I don't really like set out to make it
compelling.
I know that the story iscompelling already.
I mean, and I've thought aboutit for like months and months.
You know different littlepieces of the story.
So you know I what I do is, youknow, I want to be as visual as
possible when writing,especially especially like
action scenes and stuff.
(24:06):
So the compelling part is likeI really focus in on like all
right, I need the reader, whenthey're reading this, to really
see how this is playing out,what it looks like in their mind
.
So I make sure to try to likemake it as visual as I can when
it comes to that stuff, likefighting scenes and stuff.
But yeah, just being likecompelling in the storyline
itself.
The storyline is compelling.
There's no one that's going towrite it like I'm going to write
(24:28):
it.
I already know that.
So as I'm writing it, you know,I know that if I've drawn you
in enough that you're stillreading the book, you're going
to finish the book Like you wantto know where this.
You know something's going onhere.
You're like you want to seethis like what is this?
And just trying to keep itdynamic.
Man's going to happen, you know.
Trying to make it fun, you know.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
No for sure.
And yeah, I don't know.
For me, I think that's the.
That would be the biggeststress point for me is, you know
, like I think everybody thinkstheir idea is compelling, you
know, but it's.
And then you start writing andyou're like, is it people
actually?
But are people actually goingto read this?
And you know that's that's ahuge challenge, going to read
this, and you know that's that'sa huge challenge, but is is
that the biggest challengeyou've faced as a writer?
Or let me rephrase that, whatis the biggest challenge you
(25:15):
faced as a writer?
Would it be, you know, is itjust a self-doubt straight up,
or is it like writer's block?
Or you know what are yourbiggest challenges?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
yeah, I don't have writer's block.
I've never had writer's blockand even if it's just a little
bit, I'll just it.
It, I just need to.
Not, I'm not into it right nowto do it tomorrow Like it's not.
I've never had, like not beenable to like tune into it.
I mean I got to have certainmusic and stuff, like there's a
ritual.
I didn't have like a certainplaylist and then I'm in.
But as far as biggest challengesand you know it's it's going to
(25:44):
sound weird, I think, but theprocess itself of writing and
creating is not it's challengingbecause it's, you know,
whatever, but it's fun, it'svery fun for me.
So I don't even look at that asa challenge.
You know, now that I've writtentwo books, I know I can write a
novel.
Now I just got to get better atit as I go and I need to find
the right, you know, story to.
You know, hopefully catch fireat some point.
(26:11):
But the biggest yeah, right,the biggest challenge is and I
think I'm finally getting overit and it's been a long time of
getting over it is you put somuch effort and work into
something in the process ofwriting and editing your stuff
and whatever you're finally likeall right, I'm releasing that.
And then, depending on what pathyou take, if you're and try to
do traditional, that's got awhole bunch of stuff built into
(26:31):
that.
That's very hard to deal with.
And if you go self-publishingwhich you know it's valid, you
know that itself gets.
There's a lot of challenges inthat.
And when you're writing you'renot thinking of that part of
this process, because you'rewriting your story and you're
telling your story.
And then you know a hundredthousand words, whatever 60,000,
we finished your story, youknow, and you're like, okay, you
(26:54):
reread it and you edit itenough, and you're like, all
right, that next part is soremoved from the first part that
it's very jarring because it'sa whole different situation.
Because now it's, if you'regoing to self-publish it, a, how
do you do that, pricing it, howdo you market it?
Then you finally do all that.
(27:14):
You're doing videos and notreally going anywhere.
You know that it's a wholebunch of disappointment on all
that.
And then the sales you knowthere's like a lot of that other
stuff that's not reallyinvolved in the first part
you've got to go from.
You've got to go from creativelike you, you know the creator
aspect to then you've got tobecome a salesman, a salesman, a
, no, a, a expert of your story,which you should be because you
(27:38):
wrote it, but still, um, how doyou talk about it?
Uh, you know, do you all thesethings, all these different
pieces?
And then, if you go to thetraditional route and you're
submitting it to agents to tryto get a book deal, you're
dealing with rejections.
You're dealing with beingstraight up ignored.
You're dealing with I sent thisthree weeks ago, three months
(27:59):
ago, six months ago, what theheck?
Then you finally get an emailand you open.
It's like the college.
You know you're gettingrejected from college thing
every single time.
So like you start to get alittle resentful, but you're
like it's part of the process,you know, you're just like going
through the process.
So to me, the hardest part ofany of the writing thing is
(28:20):
really that part, because youknow, go to a bookstore, go to
walmart, look at the booksection, and you look at books.
You're like that got published.
You know, really, you know, andit's not like.
But I'm not saying it's like,I'm not trying to dog the books
like good for them, but alsolike mine.
I know mine's better than that,I know.
But you're not being seen.
And you know theself-publishing thing.
(28:42):
There's more power in it,there's more freedom in it,
there's more control for you init because it's your stuff.
But you're also now battling aocean of self-published books on
top of regular published booksand there's a lot of all of that
.
I think all of that stuff is thehardest stuff.
The actual writing.
It is fun and it's not.
(29:03):
I don't want to say easy, butcompared to that stuff it's easy
.
And I think the biggestchallenge for me is you don't
want to say easy, but comparedto that stuff it's easy.
You know, and I think thebiggest challenge for me is like
you don't write to make a booksell a million copies, like
that's.
I mean you shouldn't be writingfor that reason, obviously, and
I wouldn't say that I'm writingfor that reason.
But you are writing to like ifyou do release it, you want to
see success in it.
(29:24):
You know how much effort andtime you took to make that and
there's nothing harder than likeyou know it comes out, and not
that it falls on deaf ears, butlike kind of, did you know what
I mean?
That's the hardest part and thatpart I was not ready for when I
started writing novels.
Like I knew obviously that'snot going to just be like first
book boom.
But it's weird to go through itbecause I wasn't prepared for
(29:47):
that.
I didn't I don't know I w, Ididn't really put much thought
into that part.
I was like, oh, it'll be fine,I'll just release it and it will
be fine.
Eventually it's not a big deal,but it took me a long time to
get to that spot in my brainwhere I'm like keep writing
number one and if it even Like,but it's a little bit, you know,
you're kind of like, here yougo Good old shonen characters,
(30:08):
man, because you just go and youjust keep going.
You know you're failing andyou're going and you just got to
keep doing it.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
It's not easy.
So I feel like BrandonSanderson actually has the maybe
not the best opinion on this,but he's got some very good
points about this topic and thistopic specifically.
You know Brandon said in one ofhis because he published you
know his series of courses thathe was doing for creative
writing and one of them you knowhe specifically said you know,
(30:38):
you become a writer because youhave to tell your stories,
because you have to get yourstories out.
You know that's, that's why youwrite, because you have to get
your stories out.
You know, if you, if you'rebecoming a writer to sell a
million books and get a bookdeal, you're going to fall and
you're going to stop writingbecause that's not why you're.
You know that that's not a goodreason.
(30:59):
That's not a good enough reasonto keep with it.
You know the reason has to bebecause you need to get your
stories out.
It's got to be out there.
You got to get it out of you.
Yeah Right, you just you haveto tell a story like you want
this story to be out there, andit's not.
You know, of course, every Ithink everybody would be lying
if they said that they didn'twant to sell a million copies,
(31:20):
because obviously right, youknow, that would be fantastic.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
What other?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
way to prove you know that your story was a success
by selling a million copies.
You know there's no, there's nogreater standard of like I made
it, I made it, yep, but I thinkyou have to define and it
sounds like you've already donethis, but I think you have to
define what success, whatsuccess is going to look ahead
of time, right, um, and itsounds like you know you've
(31:46):
gotten, you, sounds like you'vegot that nailed.
You, you know success isgetting the book published,
whether it's indie ortraditional, and telling a story
.
And you know, yeah, do you wanta million readers?
Of course, of course you do.
But you know you've designed,defined success separately from
have I made it like have I madeit is not your own, and I will
(32:07):
tell you this.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
that's recent for me.
That's not like I've been likethat for a long.
That's literally recent, as inlike this year, because I was
getting to a point where I wasgetting angry and resentful
about like I've spent all thisand I think it's just because
it's very important for me tothat.
This is a success in whateverword that means.
But then you have to definethat word for you and you're
(32:29):
absolutely right.
You know, is it successfulbecause you got a book deal or
is it successful because youactually wrote a freaking book
that people who did read arelike actually, yes, it's really
good.
What is successful and you know,that's if I could impart any
kind of wisdom, and I hopeanyone listening to that wants
to write.
A, do it, Stop making excusesand do it.
And B define that before youfinish, Because if you don't,
(32:55):
you're leaving it up to otherfactors to decide what that
means for you and those factorsare not realistic.
I mean, you don't know how manybooks somebody wrote until they
made it.
You have to actually look it upand really like, figure that
out.
They made it.
You have to actually look it upand really like, figure that
out and.
But it's one of those thingsand the comfort I take in it is,
even if the first four booksdon't hit and number five does
the other four are then going toget read more because they want
(33:16):
to see what else you wrote yeah, absolutely just keep going.
But I was not prepared for that.
Um, if I'm being honest about Iwasn't prepared for that when I
started writing these novels,because you know everyone wants
to think you're special, okay,cool, but you know it's like you
spent a long time doing it, man, and you want to be rewarded or
(33:37):
accolade.
You want to be recognized, Iguess would be the word for the
time that you spend into andwhen you're not, you're like,
you know you start gettingannoyed.
So annoyed, so like please,whatever it is for you
specifically as a writer, decidethat before and allow what
happens happens and don't let ittaint your love of writing.
(33:58):
You know that's not good.
You know what I mean no, I, Iagree.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Um, so you know, you've you've worked with a lot
of indie comics.
You know comic comic writer,you know the whole shebang kind
of done a lot in the biz.
So the indie comic scene haschanged a lot over the years, so
especially, you know, with likeweb comics and manhwa becoming
more popular.
What is your current take onthe state of the industry?
Speaker 2 (34:26):
So actually it's changed a lot because you're
seeing these webcomics, webtoons, monroes being animated, which
is not a thing If you cut alittle at three, four, five
years ago that wasn't happeningthat much.
So I love seeing it becauseit's growing more and more and
more.
And, like you were saying aboutthe beginning, after the end
that creator is not.
You said he's American.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Yeah, he's korean american yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
So that would never have happened before.
You know, when we were growingup, that wouldn't be a thing you
know.
So the global audience isshifted to the point where
you're going to start seeingmore opportunity for more people
, and I think that's amazingbecause, know, anime is a global
thing at this point, you knowit's been, and the more people
(35:12):
that watch it, the better, andit just it leaves the door open
for more creators of differentyou know, places that they get
their stories made.
I mean, we all want to animatemade one day it would be awesome
.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
And you see these happening.
You know it's slowly here andthere and that's a big deal, man
, because the more successfulthose are, the more they're
going to make more of them.
So I think it's just you'regoing to start seeing way more
web to vertical scrollingstories be adapted, and I think
it's going to be, really fun.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
We're going to get some really cool as long as the
studios are good, dude, that'swhat I'm hoping, because there
are a lot of stories that I wantto see get animated.
Uh, and you know, just personalpreference.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
I would love to see deck of fates, get animated dude
.
I just I want to cry.
I would be so proud of crying.
That would be dream that mydream is to have something.
I have two dreams book, publicbook, big book, success novel
and something animated that isthat I mean, that would just be
amazing, stunning, yeah,absolutely all right, so you've
got a pretty decent fan basearound your works.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
How do you engage with yours and what is your
favorite part about connectingwith your fans?
Speaker 2 (36:24):
sure.
So really it's, um, my favoriteis when I have an episode of a
weekly series coming out andevery week a new episode drops
and I get to see the commentsand people trying to like, you
know, guess what's happening orput two and two together,
whatever, and I like engaging alittle bit, not spoiling, but
(36:44):
like in the in the comments,that that's my favorite thing.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Oh yeah, I got to ask you have you ever had a fan
leave a comment in, you know, inthe comments, and you're like,
oh my God, that's hot, I need tosteal that idea.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Um no, I've never had someone leave something that I
would want to do, cause I don'twant here's what.
Here's the thing.
You have to be careful withthat because if you're writing
it to your audience and not whatyou really want to do, that's a
slippery slope, although I haveseen people make comments and
I'm like that's actually, that'sa cool take, but that's not
where I'm going and you don'twant them to guess you're going
(37:22):
to.
You know you don't want to liketurn your story and then do
that and then someone's like Iknew it.
But then you know, you knowwhat you did.
Yeah, it's like you want tomake them be more shocked than
be like I knew it, type stuff,uh.
But I have seen definitely somecool takes on things and I kind
of like, when they're justwildly off of they like think
I'm gonna do somethingcompletely different and I'm
like, oh, they are not payingattention or they don't know
(37:45):
this, because it makes it morefun, because now they bro, do
you even read?
it's like what are you talkingabout?
But then it, you know, it meansthat my story is unique enough
that they're not guessing whereit's going.
You know, that's kind of likethat's I like doing that man.
That's my favorite way ofinteracting, you know, but I
need a weekly series to do that.
So hopefully my other two willcome back this year you'll get
(38:05):
it yeah, maybe we'll seehopefully it's the year for the
comeback.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
That's what I've been told well, let's go, let's move
right, let's do it so foraspiring writers, um, as we're
as we're kind of winding downhere on the interview for
aspiring writers and webcomiccreators, what is the best piece
of advice you wish you had?
Speaker 2 (38:26):
you were starting out um my best piece of advice you
wish you had when you werestarting out.
My best piece of advice wouldbe stop second guessing.
You got an idea for a story andno one has that idea the way
that you have it, and even ifit's similar or it's another
hero reborn in another worldthing, you can still make an
original version of that that noone else has thought of.
So you know, there's only acertain amount of stories that
(38:47):
we can tell anyway.
But make them yours original,make them unique and just go for
it.
That's really my only advice,because you know we, the whole
shonen genre is the same storyover and over again.
Just, you know told a different, you know lenses, but they're
all different.
I mean, you know black cloverand fairy tale very similar, but
(39:08):
they're also wildly differentstories.
You know like they're justdifferent, different types of
characters.
So just tell your story the waythat you, you know, envision it
, and who cares if it sharessimilarities with something else
?
Speaker 1 (39:20):
everything shares similarities yeah, there's no
new stories told under the sun,that you just have to get
creative with the way you tellthat story.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah, or blend genres that shouldn't be blended
together, but you know, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
I don't know anybody that doesthat.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
No one at all.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
No one.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
I mean who writes the end of the world?
Ai robot story about a war, andthen there's mythological thing
.
I mean story about a war, andthen there's mythological thing.
I mean come on, man doesn'tmake any sense.
Why would?
Speaker 1 (39:49):
you do that.
It doesn't make sense itdoesn't make sense all right.
Well, that does about wrap usup again.
We've been talking for quite afew minutes.
Um, no, it's fine, it was agood interview and, uh, thank
you for agreeing to do it, whichI know that sounds weird
because you're on the show withme but, but, we could have
(40:10):
covered anything, but I was likeno dude and.
I just want to say this was myidea, a hundred percent.
I was like bro, we got to talkabout your stories Like I didn't
push it I promise we have totalk about Jordan's stories.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Well, I appreciate you giving me a chance.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
And I mean, hey, anyone listens to it.
Help, maybe they get someadvice from it.
Go for it, you know, hopefullyit'll help in some way.
Just write, you know, keepwriting, all right?
Well, thank you, jumpers andeverybody.
Have a great night.
We'll talk to you next week.
See you, peace.
Thanks for jumping into therealm with us today.
Be sure to follow realm jumperswherever you get your podcasts
and don't forget to share yourthoughts, theories and favorite
and favorite moments with us.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Stay epic and keep exploring the worlds you love.
Leave us a review on yourpodcast platform and if you're
stuck on what to say, let usknow what your favorite anime is
.
See you in the next realm, soso.
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