July 4, 2025 • 38 mins
This is Part 3 of a 5 Part series on the evaluation of Reformed Theology, also referred to as Calvinism. We hope you will join us for this complete series.
Does God choose us, or do we choose Him? This age-old theological question lies at the heart of Reformed Theology (Calvinism), and in this thought-provoking episode, we dive deep into the biblical text to find answers.
Moving beyond theoretical discussions, we examine the actual passages that form the foundation of Reformed thought. Starting with the Greek word "electos" (chosen), we explore what it means when applied to God's actions before the foundation of the world. Does God deliberate in His choices? Can an eternal God who knows all things actually "choose" in the way humans understand choice?
Ephesians 1:3-4 becomes our central text: "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world." We carefully analyze what Paul means by being "in Christ" and whether God chooses specific individuals or establishes a mechanism for salvation. The subtle but crucial shift in Ephesians 1:12-13 from divine action ("He blessed, chose, predestined") to human response ("you listened, you believed") provides a fascinating window into the interplay between God's sovereignty and human responsibility.
Throughout our examination, we maintain a commitment to letting the text speak for itself rather than imposing theological systems onto Scripture. This approach reveals nuances often missed in heated debates between Calvinists and Arminians, suggesting that perhaps both sides capture important truths about salvation.
Whether you're a committed Calvinist, a strong proponent of free will, or simply seeking to understand what the Bible actually teaches, this episode offers fresh insights that will challenge your thinking and deepen your appreciation for God's redemptive work.
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May God Bless you!! - Glenn and Steve
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello and welcome to Reasoning Through the Bible.
We are in the midst of a seriesthat we're doing a special
topic on Reformed Theology, alsoknown as Calvinism.
Today, this session, we'regoing to start going through a
series of Bible passages andwe're going to assume that
you've been through the firsttwo sessions that we did that
(00:21):
gave an overview of what isReformed theology and our
evaluation of it, with thingsthat are strong and possible
weaknesses.
So today, what we're going todo, what really needs to be done
, which is to go throughindividual Bible passages and
wrestle with what they'reactually saying and try to dive
(00:41):
into the meanings of each, andsince there's many of these,
then we're going to just see howit goes.
This may run into more than onesession, but again, especially
if you're new to Reformedtheology, you really need to
listen to the first two beforeyou get into this one.
And today we're probably goingto see some of the areas that
Steve and I may not see eye toeye on, but we'll also see some
(01:03):
things that we do agree on.
And so there's and it's alwaysfun to study the Word of God.
So we're going to go into agood bit of detail today, steve,
are we not?
Speaker 2 (01:13):
We are going to do that and, so as to set this up,
I'm going to switch over to aslide that I have here, a few
slides, and when we go throughthe verses we'll probably throw
these things up as well.
Before we start, I want to saythat we will put this
documentation out on ourresource page.
So if you want to go look atthese documents whenever you're
(01:35):
listening to this or watchingthis or afterwards, you can go
and pull those things down fromour resource page on our website
, reasoningthroughthebiblecom.
So let me show you what I'vedone here.
So what I did, glenn, is I wentout and did a word search and
this is in using the Bible ofthe NASB 95, and did a search
(01:57):
for everywhere where the wordelect was used and also where
the word chosen choice, wherethat is used as well, and
there's eight verses that cameback with the specific word
elect in the NASB.
And then for chosen.
There were a little bit over200 verses that came back and I
(02:19):
categorized them in the versesthat says that they were talking
about chosen the places of God,such as Jerusalem, chosen
people such as the Leviticalpriests, and chosen for
different reasons that didn'thave anything to do with
salvation.
I categorized those and what Icame down to were these
(02:43):
particular nine verses that kindof deal with salvation, or at
least have been used inconjunction with talking about
salvation.
So these are some of the verses.
We're not going to go throughall of them, but these are some
of the verses that we will talkabout today.
So on the left-hand side, I dowant to say that when you see
(03:06):
there, matthew, chapter 24 andMark, chapter 13,.
Both of those sections ofscripture are dealing with the
Olivet Discourse.
So when the usage of the wordthat's used there in those
particular texts they're talkingabout God's elect in relation
(03:26):
to the nation of Israel or theIsraelites, because that's the
time that Jesus is talking aboutin his Olivet Discourse, which
is the end time period there,which leaves us with Luke and
Romans that we can talk about ina little bit more.
The other thing on chosen isthat there's the combination of
(03:47):
the word electos and some of theother words that derive from
that.
So while the translatorsdecided to use the word chosen
in those verses on theright-hand side, the root word
behind it is most commonlyelectos.
That's usually the word that isused behind that particular one
(04:10):
.
So let me give the descriptionof the word electos, which I'll
show here and then from that wecan start going into some of
these verses.
Sounds good when you look atthe word electos, it's Strong's
number 1588, and it's used inthese verses.
I have three differentdictionaries that are depicted
(04:32):
here.
One is the Complete Word StudyDictionary of the New Testament.
The other is the most commonone, referred to as BDAG, and
the last one there is Vine'sComplete Expository dictionary
of Old and New Testament words.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
One just explanation.
When you say BDAG, there's aGreek lexicon by Bauer, danker,
arndt and Gingrich and it's justcommonly called BDAG and it's
probably at least one of themore current best lexicons.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
So as I've got the word depicted here.
In the first one, the completeword study, it says that electos
is a derivative from the rootword eklego, which means to
choose or select, and that thisword electos means chosen,
select.
It's in the group of threeimportant biblical words electos
(05:23):
, elego and eclogue and it meanschoice or election.
And what I have highlightedhere is something I think is
important.
In this dictionary they drawout that the selection involves
thoughtful and deliberateconsideration.
So keep that in mind becauseI'll be referring to that in
part of this session.
There in BDAG it meanspertaining to be selected,
(05:47):
chosen of those whom God haschosen, and in the highlighted
part there it says hints ofChristians in particular, and
then in the Old Testament as ofthe Israelites.
So even on this particular wordit's saying that the word
itself is used in relation tohow the Christians are described
(06:09):
, but in the Old Testament it'snoted of the Israelites.
Then the last one there invines just simply says signifies
chosen out or select elect.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
So just a comment about that one, steve,
especially that first one.
The definition there that sayschoice or election involving
thoughtful or deliberateconsideration, I would agree.
I mean that's what thereference book says it means.
The issue involves is when weapply it to God, because God
does not have thoughtful ordeliberate consideration about
(06:46):
anything ever, and the reasonbeing is that God doesn't think
in deliberations.
God doesn't look at something,figure out what it means and
then make a choice.
This is one of the root issueswith basing election on
foreknowledge is because Goddoesn't look at a creature and
(07:08):
learn what it's going to do andthen make a decision based on
that.
So I would agree the term meansthoughtful and deliberate
deliberation.
God doesn't think in sequenceand he doesn't deliberate
because he already knowseverything.
If he had to deliberate onsomething one, it would mean
that prior to that he didn'tknow it and secondly, he had to
(07:30):
learn something from a creature,which means we've got a limited
God and there's a huge issue.
So part of the thing here withthe whole election free will
issue and especially election,part of is God just knows and he
knows from all eternity and hehas determined things from all
(07:50):
eternity.
It plays out in time, but hedoesn't thoughtfully deliberate
about anything, let alonesalvation.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
And I would agree with that particular description
related to God, however, withother things, of describing God
to us as mankind, so that we canunderstand just like the word
foreknowledge is used.
We talked about that in ourlast session.
The word foreknowledge is usedfor our purposes because that's
(08:21):
how we think we live in thislinear time frame, and so to us
it's foreknowledge, but to Godit's just knowledge, and I think
that's in this same genre inthat, no, there's not a specific
deliberation from God, god justknows.
But that's the word that's beenused selected to be used in the
(08:41):
Greek to describe this choiceor selection that's made, and so
I think that it can be appliedfrom that particular point for
an understanding from us on themankind side, to have a fuller
understanding in regards to whatthe word means and what the
(09:02):
outcome of what the choice andstuff is.
But I would agree that God justknows and there's not any
particular deliberation that hasto take place.
So, as we begin here and talkabout specific verses, I do want
to go through one thing here,glenn, that talks about how.
I do want to go through onething here, glenn, that talks
(09:26):
about how Paul uses this conceptof being in Christ.
So I have some verses here ofhis introductory statements to
the different believers that hewas writing to at the different
places.
So the first one there isPhilippians 1.1.
Says Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Christ Jesus, to all
(09:50):
the saints in Christ Jesus whoare in Philippi, including the
overseers and deacons.
Then in Colossians he writesPaul, an apostle of Jesus Christ
by the will of God, and Timothy, our brother, to the saints and
faithful brethren in Christ whoare at Colossae.
(10:11):
Grace to you and peace from God, our Father.
In 1 Thessalonians he says fromPaul and Silvanus and Timothy to
the church of the Thessaloniansin God, the Father, church of
the Thessalonians in God, theFather and the Lord Jesus Christ
.
Then in 2 Thessalonians he saysthe exact same thing.
(10:36):
He has the same greeting to thechurch of the Thessalonians in
God, our Father and Lord JesusChrist.
So as we go into and starttalking about some of these, one
of them is going to beEphesians.
Chapter 1 is going to be one ofthe ones we're going to talk
about.
I wanted to set the stage thatPaul uses this concept of being
in Christ, that believers are inChrist.
(10:56):
When we went through Colossianswe specifically called out in
Colossians in many, many ofthose sessions, that Paul's
argument was you're either inChrist or you're not in Christ,
and when you're in Christ, youhave all of these
characteristics and attributesthat you get whenever you become
(11:18):
in Christ, and so being inChrist is synonymous with
somebody that has expressedtheir belief in Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
So let me just make sure I'm grasping what you're
saying.
What you're saying is thatthere's this group of people
that are in Christ and those aresaved people.
Those people, in a NewTestament sense, have salvation
right, correct?
And so when he are you sayingthat, when it refers to the
elect, it is this if we draw acircle around these people in
(11:49):
Christ, that's who he's talkingabout.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Right, and I would say, and probably gonna make the
case, that the word elect andchosen, it's always talked about
in a plural plurality of peopleus, we and not in specific
individuals.
So it's used more in the caseof a group or a categorization
(12:11):
of people that are the elect,they are chosen ones, they are
ones who have been chosen, theyare ones who have been called
out and they're in this group orcategory that, once they're in
Christ, that they are the elect.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
So are you saying there's this category or this
group of in Christ and that Godforeknew, or at least looked at?
Oh, those are all the peopleover there that are in Christ.
I'm going to elect that group.
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2 (12:46):
I would not put it that way.
I would put that again, forno isbecause of us that we are in a
linear timeline.
I would say that what I believethat the concept is and what
Scripture leads to is thatbefore the creation, if God
created anything, he knew withhis knowledge that man was going
(13:08):
to be sinful, that there wasgoing to be a division between
him and a separation between himand mankind, and that there was
going to be to be a mechanismor a way for man to be
reconciled back to himself.
And through that mechanism isthrough the death, burial and
resurrection of Jesus Christ,the Messiah.
(13:30):
And in Romans, chapter 3,verses 19 to 25, it's clear that
God did this so that he couldboth be just and the justifier
and that Jesus was thesatisfactory sacrifice in that
process.
So that was the way, before thecreation of the world, that God
(13:54):
decided this is how man isgoing to be brought back and
reconciled to myself and thatwhen those people express that
belief that then they're in thisgroup called the elect or the
chosen ones.
So I wouldn't put itnecessarily that before the
creation that God said there arecertain people I will choose
(14:20):
unilaterally to put into thisgroup called the elect.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
That's what the strict reform guys are going to
say.
That's correct.
They're going to say that frometernity, past the elect are the
ones he chose.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
That's correct and I would not put it that way that
that group is ones that hedecided he would choose and that
the other people not chosen arethe ones he decided not to
choose.
Now again, they would say.
Many of them would say no, no,god does not choose to not
select the others.
They do that and make their ownchoice.
(14:53):
But to me it doesn't follow thelogical conclusion.
If he decides to choose certainones before the foundation of
the world, unilaterally andthat's a key word for me
unilaterally, okay, then he thenhas to logical conclusion
decide that he's unilaterally,is not going to choose the other
(15:15):
group.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Okay so here's what I would respond.
I think that good explanation,since we're in the sessions.
That's talking about exegetingthe Bible passages.
What I'd say is what you justdescribed.
It doesn't say that here.
All it's saying in these versesabout being in Christ is that
(15:37):
you're in Christ.
It's not saying in thesepassages how you got in there.
It's just talking to thesegroup of people.
So if we're trying to hold eachother's feet to the fire here
my own feet and yours and youmentioned three or four of them
here he's addressing theseepistles to those in Christ.
(16:00):
He's not saying how you gotthere.
Correct In this passage.
In these passages, what wewould agree on is that the elect
if you draw a circle around theelect, it's those that are in
Christ.
It's not talking aboutsomething else.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
That's correct, and I'm just using these passages to
talk about whenever we get intoEphesians 1, to use this
concept that Paul has, thisconcept that people that are in
Christ are the ones that are theelect or are saved.
Agree with you.
He's not talking about how thathappens here.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Now there's one qualification that we might
ought to give here and I'm notsure we'll get to it with this
list of verses we're about to gothrough or not, but the term
elect is used in more than onesense in the scriptures In
Romans 9, 10, 11, it talks aboutthe elect, but it's talking
about the people from Israelthat were a chosen race of
(17:01):
people there.
And lest you think that's anisolated to our audience, lest
you think that's an isolatedteaching, in our past sessions
we mentioned WTT Shedd, who wasthe straight down the line
reformer before any kind ofdispensationalist people that
came along, taught two electionsof one from Israel and one from
(17:24):
those that are saved.
Lewis Berry, chafer taught thesame thing.
There's others that teach thesame thing that there's more
than one election, that therewas an election of the Old
Testament Israel in the sense ofa nation election, and then
there's an election of peoplethat are saved in Christ, and
that the term is used in adifferent way are saved in
(17:48):
Christ and that the term is usedin a different way.
It's strictly and you pointedout the lexical definition of it
just to choose, and we need tobe careful not to read into
these passages what we think itmeans with the election.
We just need to take what doesthe context mean when it's
making a choice?
It's really no different thanthe word saved.
If you use saved or salvation,in some cases it's talking about
(18:08):
saved from sickness.
In other places it's talkingabout saved from sin, and so we
need to be careful when we lookat these passages.
What type of election we'redoing?
And maybe we'll get to it whenwe get to these passages, but
just don't want to make thatdistinction.
There are more than one, morethan two Bible teachers that use
more than one election.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
And that is one of my arguments is that the word
elect and the word chosenbecause again, the root word of
chosen is electos in manyoccasions, or from those roots
that it's been taken to where,every time it's used, that it
means salvation.
(18:50):
I would say that if you look atthe text themselves which we'll
do some that it's talking aboutbeing elect or chosen for a
purpose, and that other times ituses this word elect as the
group of the saved people.
So in the Old Testament theelect is used of the nation of
(19:15):
Israel.
That has nothing to do withsalvation, because the elect,
the chosen people of Israel, ithad some that were believers in
Yahweh and some that were notbelievers at all, but yet they
were known as God's choice, theapple of his eye, and the elect,
the ones that he chose as agroup.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
So speaking of chose, why don't we go ahead and jump
into one of the main passages,ephesians chapter one, 1, and
Ephesians chapter 1 is one ofthe favorite passages from our
Reformed friends because there'sa lot of things in Ephesians 1
that talk about what God does,and we'll talk about some of
this.
We're not going to exegete theentire chapter here, but
(20:00):
Ephesians 1, verses 3 and 4 saythis Blessed be the God and
Father of our Lord, jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every
spiritual blessing in theheavenly places in Christ, just
as he chose us in him before thefoundation of the world, that
we would be holy and blamelessbefore him in love.
(20:21):
That part right there,especially verse four, is one of
the main passages that get usedand brought up in the
discussion of Reformed theology.
Again, ephesians 1, verse 4,says just as he meaning God, he
chose us in him, meaning Christbefore the foundation of the
(20:43):
world.
So a reformed person would saylook, it says right there God
chose us in Christ before thefoundation of the world that we
would be holy and blameless.
And the blameless part is thepart that clearly means
salvation, because if you'reholy and blameless before God
prior to salvation, we're notholy and blameless.
(21:05):
We're unrighteous and we'refull of blame and full of God's
wrath because of our sin.
But in order to become holy andblameless, according to
Ephesians 1, 4, he chose us inChrist before the foundation of
the world.
So the Reformed person wouldstand here and say can't you
(21:26):
read?
It's really clear.
He says he chose us, and theywould even add the word to be in
Christ.
He chose us to be in Christbefore the foundation of the
world.
But even just as it reads, hechose us in Christ.
And when did he did it?
Before the foundation of theworld, before we were ever born.
(21:46):
And so the reformed peoplewould rest here and say, case
closed.
He chose us to be in Christ sothat we would be saved.
So what say ye?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
So I have some markup here in the text and I agree
with the way you read it thereand it's the way I have it
marked that he chose us in him,that there's no pause.
There's no, he chose us pausein him.
That it's a solid thought, thathe chose us in him before the
(22:19):
foundation of the world.
And the reason is for thepurpose is that we would be holy
and blameless before him inlove.
So this concept that Imentioned before, that Paul
talks about often in hisepistles of being in Christ or
not in Christ, that he iskeeping in the same vein of that
(22:42):
when he's writing to theseEphesians In Ephesians 1, he
says to the saints who are atEphesus and are faithful in
Christ Jesus, and as we followthat down, he says that whom are
blessed with every spiritualblessing.
In verse 3, the heavenly placesin Christ and to continue with
(23:04):
that.
That's the same sentence.
There's no pause there, just ashe chose us in him before the
foundation of the world.
So I take that and look at thatto be that it's fitting in that
concept of in Christ.
That's how we have salvation,we have salvation in Christ, and
that God, before the foundationof the world said this is the
(23:28):
way that I'm going to reconcilemankind back to myself.
It's going to be through Christ.
The ones who believe in him aregoing to be in Christ and
that's how I'm going toreconcile man back to myself.
Where I differ with what youcalled out on the Reformed,
where they want to put sometimesnot on everyone to be, the text
(23:52):
does not say to be in Christ.
It says that he chose us inChrist.
So I see that as just keepingin the same vein of Paul's
general message of being inChrist.
That's the method or the waythat God selected before the
foundation of the world ofcreation, that that was the way
(24:17):
that mankind was going to bereconciled back to himself.
So once again, as we look atthat also, everything here is a
group.
He chose us in him and to allthe saints who are faithful in
Christ.
So there's not any type ofindividuality that's noted here
(24:39):
and I think in the past in ourdiscussions you said, well, but
there has to be individuals thatget into Christ, correct?
But I think again, it's thisidea and concept that being in
Christ, you have salvation.
That's the way and the methodthat God chose and selected for
people to be reconciled back tohimself.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
So let me just ask to clarify and make sure I
understand what you're saying.
Ephesians 1, verse 4 says hechose us in him before the
foundation of the world.
Are you denying that thechoosing is what causes us to be
in Christ?
Speaker 2 (25:19):
No, I'm not, Because I believe that scripture is
clear that God does choose us.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Okay.
In other words, the question ishow did we get in Christ?
The Reformed guy would say it'shis choosing.
Is what causes us to be inChrist.
Right, and I think what I hearyou saying is that the choice
was of whoever happened to be inthe group and the Reformed guys
say no, he chose us, happenedto be in the group, and the
(25:47):
reformed guys say no, he choseus, he chose the individuals to
make up the group that I'm goingto pick one, three, five and
seven to be in Christ and I'mnot going to choose two, four,
six, eight and those are notgoing to be in Christ.
And so, therefore, I chosethose in Christ.
And I think what you're sayingis that his choice didn't cause
(26:08):
the group.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Here's how I would put it Whenever Abraham believed
in God, god reckoned it to himas being righteous.
That gives an idea that therewas a choice that was made by
God.
God chose to reckon that beliefthat Abraham expressed in him
(26:33):
as righteousness.
So that's where this word comesback to, that it depicts a
deliberation or a selection fromthat standpoint we talked about
at the very beginning, and Iagree that God doesn't have to
deliberate on anything, but it'snot an automatic.
(26:53):
In other words, when Abrahamexpressed his belief in God, god
wasn't bound to have to reckonit as righteousness.
He did, and he is bound fromthe standpoint of in regards to
Christ, because he has saidthrough scripture that whoever
shall believe on Jesus Christwill have eternal life.
(27:17):
So from that particular case,it is a promise that he has made
and he's bound in that regard,that he's made it clear that
that's the way to salvation.
But if it goes back to what theCalvinists like to always talk
up God's sovereignty and God cando what he wants to do and he
(27:38):
can do anything he wants to well, god can at any point in time
say no, I'm not going torecognize that.
But whenever somebody expressesfaith, god knows whether or not
they are sincere in it orwhether they're not sincere in
it, but it's so.
There's a choice.
Am I going to accept that ornot?
(27:58):
Is that person sincere or not?
That's how I describe thischoice.
That's related.
So to go back to clarify yourquestion, is that?
No, I'm not saying that.
God arbitrarily, before thefoundation of the world, said
I'm going to save particularpeople one, three, five and
(28:21):
seven but 2, 4, 6, and 8, personI'm not going to save.
I don't think that that isconsistent with what Scripture
says.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Okay, so response.
First of all again and we didthis last time in the last
session the Reformed guys wouldreply back and say well, he's
not arbitrary, he's full ofinfinite wisdom and so nothing
in God is arbitrary.
He's all wise and his wisechoice can choose who to be in
(28:53):
the group.
That's what they would say, andwe then pointed out that that's
inconsistent, because if you'regoing to hold that to strong,
total depravity, there's nocriteria to be wise upon,
because there's just nothingthere to make a wise choice upon
.
Nevertheless, that's what theywould reply.
I mean, to me it's just fairlyclear he chose us and he chose
(29:18):
the group.
But it's not saying here Idon't think you can get from
this language in this verse thatthere's this not saying here, I
don't think you can get fromthis language in this verse that
there's this group out here andhe chose this group for some
purpose, called, you know, forwhatever, to be a church or
something.
If he chose the group, he chosethe individuals in the group,
(29:40):
and what I think it's reallysaying.
The grammar of the sentencereally starts back in verse 3,
and it hinges on the words justas right.
So what he's really saying isthat God blessed us with every
spiritual blessing in theheavenly places that we would be
(30:00):
holy and blameless before him.
That's what he's saying.
But what he's saying is, youknow, just like he chose us in
him, then that same way he'sblessing us with every spiritual
blessing and he's doing all ofthat so that we can be holy and
blameless before him in love.
So the blessing us with everyspiritual blessing is in the
(30:25):
same way as he chose us inChrist, and all of that is so
that we would be holy andblameless before him.
So to me there's a logicaldependence here in the sentence
in between the blessing in verse3 and the choosing in verse 4,
(30:45):
and the being holy and blamelessbefore him in love.
In other words, the logicaldependence in the sentence is
the only way we can be blamelessbefore him is if he chose us in
Christ and I think that's whatit's saying and that I can take
a strong view of the electionthere, and that what it's saying
(31:05):
in verse 4 is the reason whywe're holy and blameless and the
blameless is strongjustification is because he
chose us in Christ.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah, and again, I agree with the choosing, that
God does the choosing and I'veexplained how I believe that
that is done.
So on these verses here, I havedepicted in the bottom part
there where I have the red X's,that I don't think there is this
(31:37):
division here that he chose us,pause in him and the we is that
he chose us.
I believe the one with thecheck mark above it is that the
we is that whole.
He chose us in him, being thathe chose us in Christ.
And then the last verse that Ihave there, which is the first
one, is that we don't do thatwith the first verse.
(31:59):
We don't say who are faithful,pause in Christ Jesus.
We read that.
Or saying who are faithful inChrist Jesus, we read that first
verse all is one, and sotherefore verse four should be
read as all is one as well.
But let me address this If weread a little bit further into
(32:21):
chapter two, if we have thisconcept that God chooses people
before the foundation of theworld and thus doesn't choose
other people before thefoundation of the world to be in
Christ, okay, if we follow thatlogic, when we look at chapter
2, chapter 2 starts off thereand he says you were dead in
(32:42):
your trespasses and sins inverse 1, in which you formerly
walked, according to the courseof this world, according to the
prince of power of the heir ofthe spirit that is now working
with the sons of disobedience.
And so if we have this conceptof God choosing specific
(33:04):
individuals before thefoundation of the world and not
choosing other individuals, thenwe're not born in Christ.
And chapter two, verse onethrough three, there the first
couple of verses make that clear.
We're born not in Christ.
So the question comes into wellthen, when did we become in
(33:26):
Christ?
And with me it was at the ageof eight.
With you it was at the age of25.
Right, with other people it'sat the age of 80s.
When they're in their 80s,after they've lived a life with
some people, they have done veryhorrendous deeds in their life
before they come to Christ,before they have become a
(33:49):
believer, and then are in Christ.
And so, to reread a little bitfurther, in my mind it's a
little bit of inconsistency tohave this idea that, okay,
before the foundation of theworld, god chooses certain
people to be in Christ.
He doesn't choose others to bein Christ, and within that group
(34:10):
that he chose before thefoundation of the world.
He also says but I'm going tochoose that person to be in
Christ at eight, and I'm goingto choose another person to be
in Christ at 25, and I'm goingto choose another person to be
in Christ after they've gonethrough 10 years of drug abuse,
and et cetera, et cetera, etcetera.
And so that, to me, is adilemma that doesn't explain or
(34:35):
is inconsistent with the rest ofScripture that describes people
that they're coming to Christbecause they come to a point
that they realize that they needto be reconciled back to God.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
And for our audience.
You see how the arms of theoctopus tend to move a lot, like
we said at the beginning.
Because my next question wouldbe back on the morality of God
and we're into a theologicaldiscussion, but back to the
Bible passages.
One last question about 1-4,and then we'll move on to the
(35:09):
next thing.
In 1-4, he chose us in himbefore the foundation of the
world that we would be holy andblameless, the that I'm assuming
we could translate so that, orin order that right, he's saying
a conclusion there, is he not?
So there's a conclusion that'sbeing drawn that we would be
(35:29):
holy and blameless, and theblameless again is the key word
justification.
So is it not saying thatthere's a logical conclusion
there?
He chose us that we could beholy and blameless.
It is not an if-then, so tospeak, or a so-that the first
(35:50):
condition is met and then theconclusion draws he chose us in
him before the foundation of theworld so that we would be holy
and blameless.
Is not there a holy andblameless dependent on the
choosing?
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Well, and I would say that that's correct that there
is a condition.
The condition is in Him.
So, to go back to the way I'veexpressed, it is that the
condition for salvation is to bein Christ and that when you're
in Christ then you would be holyand blameless before Him.
Again, colossians spoke reallystrongly about that and we
(36:24):
discussed that at lengthwhenever we went through
Colossians.
So again, it comes back to that.
Yes, I would put that conditionof in him.
That's the way and that that'sthe choice, is the general way
to be, have salvation.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
So for our audience right here is where it falls
into 12 more weeks of yes itdoes.
No, it's not, yes, it does.
Now, what I want to talk aboutin Ephesians 1 is something that
our Calvinist friends are notgoing to like, because this
passage, I think, is a supporterof something that I don't hear
(36:59):
them talk about.
First of all, ephesians 1 isjust a wonderful, wonderful
passage and it has a long listin there of these wonderful
things that God is doing for us.
And if you just start atEphesians 1 and just kind of
walk your way down through thepassage just in chapter 1, I
(37:22):
counted 25 things that God doesfor us.
It's a long list.
He does all these beautiful,wonderful things, and it's
obvious from the verb tenses inthe passage that God is doing
these things, and that's one ofthe reasons why our Reformed
friends love it, and so doeseverybody else, for that matter.
He blessed us, he chose us, hepredestined us, he bestowed on
(37:45):
us, he redeemed us, he forgaveus, he lavished grace on us, he
made known to us his will, hegave us an inheritance, he
sealed us, he gave us aredemption, he gave us wisdom,
and on and on and on these 25things, and they're all
wonderful and he does them all.
So this beautiful list of allthis wonderful stuff that God
(38:08):
does for us, he is doing it, hedid this, he did that, he did
the other thing.
God did this.
He bestows on us, he seals us.
Right in the middle, verses 12and 13,.
Literally almost right in themiddle of verses 12 and 13,
literally almost right in themiddle of the list of 25, we
(38:31):
were the first to hope.
Verse 13,.
You listened, verse 13,.
You believed Whoa, wait aminute time out.
Why'd you change Paul?
He changed right in the middle.
Again, big list, wonderful,tremendous spiritual,
(38:53):
theological concepts redemption,wisdom, sealing, predestination
, forgiveness.
He does it, he does it, he doesit.
You heard, you believed.
To me that is a 10-foot-highglowing red neon sign that we
(39:15):
did it.
It was our faith.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Why do.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
I think it's our faith, because it says so right
in the passage.
If it would have been the casethat he caused us to believe,
this would have been the placeit was been.
If it was the case, he gave usthe ability to believe, it would
have been here Because 25things again he gave us
(39:41):
redemption, he lavished grace,he purposed his intentions.
He gave us redemption, helavished grace, he purposed his
intentions.
He gave us an inheritance, hepredestined us.
He works all things we hoped,you listened, you believed.
And then he goes back to thelist God sealed us.
God gives us pledge he willredeem us.
He gives us wisdom.
Pledge, he will redeem us.
(40:07):
He gives us wisdom.
So he breaks the pattern whereRight at the point of belief.
This is why I think that, yes,there's a lot of benefits to
Reformed theology, but we haveglasses on.
Sometimes we put on thesesystematic theological glasses
and we miss very obvious again,flashing red neon sign who
(40:30):
believed, you believed.
Who listened, you listened.
And you have to listen prior tothe belief.
And so the logical case here isthat the listening and the
belief, which is the salvificbelief, is done by the person,
(40:53):
and it's not a good work, it'sjust listening and believing and
therefore all of the work ofrighteousness happens with all
these other things, and to me,this is just one of the
strongest cases that the beliefis ours and regeneration before
faith is not taught in Scriptureand belief is not a work of
righteousness.
(41:13):
The whole monergism-synergismdebate is a nice thing to sit on
the shelf, but it's not basedin Scripture, it's just not so.
Comment, steve, you'd probablyagree with that.
Yeah, I do agree with that.
We're going to stop right herefor today, but we have more.
So, because there's a lot here,we want to cover these in
detail.
So be back with us next time aswe continue to go through these
(41:37):
passages about Reformedtheology.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
And look for these resources on our website,
reasoningthroughthebiblecom.
As always, thank you so muchfor watching and listening.
May God bless you.
Hello and welcome to Reasoning Through the Bible.
We are in the midst of a seriesthat we're doing a special
topic on Reformed Theology, alsoknown as Calvinism.
Today, this session, we'regoing to start going through a
series of Bible passages andwe're going to assume that
you've been through the firsttwo sessions that we did that
(00:21):
gave an overview of what isReformed theology and our
evaluation of it, with thingsthat are strong and possible
weaknesses.
So today, what we're going todo, what really needs to be done
, which is to go throughindividual Bible passages and
wrestle with what they'reactually saying and try to dive
(00:41):
into the meanings of each, andsince there's many of these,
then we're going to just see howit goes.
This may run into more than onesession, but again, especially
if you're new to Reformedtheology, you really need to
listen to the first two beforeyou get into this one.
And today we're probably goingto see some of the areas that
Steve and I may not see eye toeye on, but we'll also see some
(01:03):
things that we do agree on.
And so there's and it's alwaysfun to study the Word of God.
So we're going to go into agood bit of detail today, steve,
are we not?
Speaker 2 (01:13):
We are going to do that and, so as to set this up,
I'm going to switch over to aslide that I have here, a few
slides, and when we go throughthe verses we'll probably throw
these things up as well.
Before we start, I want to saythat we will put this
documentation out on ourresource page.
So if you want to go look atthese documents whenever you're
(01:35):
listening to this or watchingthis or afterwards, you can go
and pull those things down fromour resource page on our website
, reasoningthroughthebiblecom.
So let me show you what I'vedone here.
So what I did, glenn, is I wentout and did a word search and
this is in using the Bible ofthe NASB 95, and did a search
(01:57):
for everywhere where the wordelect was used and also where
the word chosen choice, wherethat is used as well, and
there's eight verses that cameback with the specific word
elect in the NASB.
And then for chosen.
There were a little bit over200 verses that came back and I
(02:19):
categorized them in the versesthat says that they were talking
about chosen the places of God,such as Jerusalem, chosen
people such as the Leviticalpriests, and chosen for
different reasons that didn'thave anything to do with
salvation.
I categorized those and what Icame down to were these
(02:43):
particular nine verses that kindof deal with salvation, or at
least have been used inconjunction with talking about
salvation.
So these are some of the verses.
We're not going to go throughall of them, but these are some
of the verses that we will talkabout today.
So on the left-hand side, I dowant to say that when you see
(03:06):
there, matthew, chapter 24 andMark, chapter 13,.
Both of those sections ofscripture are dealing with the
Olivet Discourse.
So when the usage of the wordthat's used there in those
particular texts they're talkingabout God's elect in relation
(03:26):
to the nation of Israel or theIsraelites, because that's the
time that Jesus is talking aboutin his Olivet Discourse, which
is the end time period there,which leaves us with Luke and
Romans that we can talk about ina little bit more.
The other thing on chosen isthat there's the combination of
(03:47):
the word electos and some of theother words that derive from
that.
So while the translatorsdecided to use the word chosen
in those verses on theright-hand side, the root word
behind it is most commonlyelectos.
That's usually the word that isused behind that particular one
(04:10):
.
So let me give the descriptionof the word electos, which I'll
show here and then from that wecan start going into some of
these verses.
Sounds good when you look atthe word electos, it's Strong's
number 1588, and it's used inthese verses.
I have three differentdictionaries that are depicted
(04:32):
here.
One is the Complete Word StudyDictionary of the New Testament.
The other is the most commonone, referred to as BDAG, and
the last one there is Vine'sComplete Expository dictionary
of Old and New Testament words.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
One just explanation.
When you say BDAG, there's aGreek lexicon by Bauer, danker,
arndt and Gingrich and it's justcommonly called BDAG and it's
probably at least one of themore current best lexicons.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
So as I've got the word depicted here.
In the first one, the completeword study, it says that electos
is a derivative from the rootword eklego, which means to
choose or select, and that thisword electos means chosen,
select.
It's in the group of threeimportant biblical words electos
(05:23):
, elego and eclogue and it meanschoice or election.
And what I have highlightedhere is something I think is
important.
In this dictionary they drawout that the selection involves
thoughtful and deliberateconsideration.
So keep that in mind becauseI'll be referring to that in
part of this session.
There in BDAG it meanspertaining to be selected,
(05:47):
chosen of those whom God haschosen, and in the highlighted
part there it says hints ofChristians in particular, and
then in the Old Testament as ofthe Israelites.
So even on this particular wordit's saying that the word
itself is used in relation tohow the Christians are described
(06:09):
, but in the Old Testament it'snoted of the Israelites.
Then the last one there invines just simply says signifies
chosen out or select elect.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
So just a comment about that one, steve,
especially that first one.
The definition there that sayschoice or election involving
thoughtful or deliberateconsideration, I would agree.
I mean that's what thereference book says it means.
The issue involves is when weapply it to God, because God
does not have thoughtful ordeliberate consideration about
(06:46):
anything ever, and the reasonbeing is that God doesn't think
in deliberations.
God doesn't look at something,figure out what it means and
then make a choice.
This is one of the root issueswith basing election on
foreknowledge is because Goddoesn't look at a creature and
(07:08):
learn what it's going to do andthen make a decision based on
that.
So I would agree the term meansthoughtful and deliberate
deliberation.
God doesn't think in sequenceand he doesn't deliberate
because he already knowseverything.
If he had to deliberate onsomething one, it would mean
that prior to that he didn'tknow it and secondly, he had to
(07:30):
learn something from a creature,which means we've got a limited
God and there's a huge issue.
So part of the thing here withthe whole election free will
issue and especially election,part of is God just knows and he
knows from all eternity and hehas determined things from all
(07:50):
eternity.
It plays out in time, but hedoesn't thoughtfully deliberate
about anything, let alonesalvation.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
And I would agree with that particular description
related to God, however, withother things, of describing God
to us as mankind, so that we canunderstand just like the word
foreknowledge is used.
We talked about that in ourlast session.
The word foreknowledge is usedfor our purposes because that's
(08:21):
how we think we live in thislinear time frame, and so to us
it's foreknowledge, but to Godit's just knowledge, and I think
that's in this same genre inthat, no, there's not a specific
deliberation from God, god justknows.
But that's the word that's beenused selected to be used in the
(08:41):
Greek to describe this choiceor selection that's made, and so
I think that it can be appliedfrom that particular point for
an understanding from us on themankind side, to have a fuller
understanding in regards to whatthe word means and what the
(09:02):
outcome of what the choice andstuff is.
But I would agree that God justknows and there's not any
particular deliberation that hasto take place.
So, as we begin here and talkabout specific verses, I do want
to go through one thing here,glenn, that talks about how.
I do want to go through onething here, glenn, that talks
(09:26):
about how Paul uses this conceptof being in Christ.
So I have some verses here ofhis introductory statements to
the different believers that hewas writing to at the different
places.
So the first one there isPhilippians 1.1.
Says Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Christ Jesus, to all
(09:50):
the saints in Christ Jesus whoare in Philippi, including the
overseers and deacons.
Then in Colossians he writesPaul, an apostle of Jesus Christ
by the will of God, and Timothy, our brother, to the saints and
faithful brethren in Christ whoare at Colossae.
(10:11):
Grace to you and peace from God, our Father.
In 1 Thessalonians he says fromPaul and Silvanus and Timothy to
the church of the Thessaloniansin God, the Father, church of
the Thessalonians in God, theFather and the Lord Jesus Christ
.
Then in 2 Thessalonians he saysthe exact same thing.
(10:36):
He has the same greeting to thechurch of the Thessalonians in
God, our Father and Lord JesusChrist.
So as we go into and starttalking about some of these, one
of them is going to beEphesians.
Chapter 1 is going to be one ofthe ones we're going to talk
about.
I wanted to set the stage thatPaul uses this concept of being
in Christ, that believers are inChrist.
(10:56):
When we went through Colossianswe specifically called out in
Colossians in many, many ofthose sessions, that Paul's
argument was you're either inChrist or you're not in Christ,
and when you're in Christ, youhave all of these
characteristics and attributesthat you get whenever you become
(11:18):
in Christ, and so being inChrist is synonymous with
somebody that has expressedtheir belief in Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
So let me just make sure I'm grasping what you're
saying.
What you're saying is thatthere's this group of people
that are in Christ and those aresaved people.
Those people, in a NewTestament sense, have salvation
right, correct?
And so when he are you sayingthat, when it refers to the
elect, it is this if we draw acircle around these people in
(11:49):
Christ, that's who he's talkingabout.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Right, and I would say, and probably gonna make the
case, that the word elect andchosen, it's always talked about
in a plural plurality of peopleus, we and not in specific
individuals.
So it's used more in the caseof a group or a categorization
(12:11):
of people that are the elect,they are chosen ones, they are
ones who have been chosen, theyare ones who have been called
out and they're in this group orcategory that, once they're in
Christ, that they are the elect.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
So are you saying there's this category or this
group of in Christ and that Godforeknew, or at least looked at?
Oh, those are all the peopleover there that are in Christ.
I'm going to elect that group.
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2 (12:46):
I would not put it that way.
I would put that again, forno isbecause of us that we are in a
linear timeline.
I would say that what I believethat the concept is and what
Scripture leads to is thatbefore the creation, if God
created anything, he knew withhis knowledge that man was going
(13:08):
to be sinful, that there wasgoing to be a division between
him and a separation between himand mankind, and that there was
going to be to be a mechanismor a way for man to be
reconciled back to himself.
And through that mechanism isthrough the death, burial and
resurrection of Jesus Christ,the Messiah.
(13:30):
And in Romans, chapter 3,verses 19 to 25, it's clear that
God did this so that he couldboth be just and the justifier
and that Jesus was thesatisfactory sacrifice in that
process.
So that was the way, before thecreation of the world, that God
(13:54):
decided this is how man isgoing to be brought back and
reconciled to myself and thatwhen those people express that
belief that then they're in thisgroup called the elect or the
chosen ones.
So I wouldn't put itnecessarily that before the
creation that God said there arecertain people I will choose
(14:20):
unilaterally to put into thisgroup called the elect.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
That's what the strict reform guys are going to
say.
That's correct.
They're going to say that frometernity, past the elect are the
ones he chose.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
That's correct and I would not put it that way that
that group is ones that hedecided he would choose and that
the other people not chosen arethe ones he decided not to
choose.
Now again, they would say.
Many of them would say no, no,god does not choose to not
select the others.
They do that and make their ownchoice.
(14:53):
But to me it doesn't follow thelogical conclusion.
If he decides to choose certainones before the foundation of
the world, unilaterally andthat's a key word for me
unilaterally, okay, then he thenhas to logical conclusion
decide that he's unilaterally,is not going to choose the other
(15:15):
group.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Okay so here's what I would respond.
I think that good explanation,since we're in the sessions.
That's talking about exegetingthe Bible passages.
What I'd say is what you justdescribed.
It doesn't say that here.
All it's saying in these versesabout being in Christ is that
(15:37):
you're in Christ.
It's not saying in thesepassages how you got in there.
It's just talking to thesegroup of people.
So if we're trying to hold eachother's feet to the fire here
my own feet and yours and youmentioned three or four of them
here he's addressing theseepistles to those in Christ.
(16:00):
He's not saying how you gotthere.
Correct In this passage.
In these passages, what wewould agree on is that the elect
if you draw a circle around theelect, it's those that are in
Christ.
It's not talking aboutsomething else.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
That's correct, and I'm just using these passages to
talk about whenever we get intoEphesians 1, to use this
concept that Paul has, thisconcept that people that are in
Christ are the ones that are theelect or are saved.
Agree with you.
He's not talking about how thathappens here.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Now there's one qualification that we might
ought to give here and I'm notsure we'll get to it with this
list of verses we're about to gothrough or not, but the term
elect is used in more than onesense in the scriptures In
Romans 9, 10, 11, it talks aboutthe elect, but it's talking
about the people from Israelthat were a chosen race of
(17:01):
people there.
And lest you think that's anisolated to our audience, lest
you think that's an isolatedteaching, in our past sessions
we mentioned WTT Shedd, who wasthe straight down the line
reformer before any kind ofdispensationalist people that
came along, taught two electionsof one from Israel and one from
(17:24):
those that are saved.
Lewis Berry, chafer taught thesame thing.
There's others that teach thesame thing that there's more
than one election, that therewas an election of the Old
Testament Israel in the sense ofa nation election, and then
there's an election of peoplethat are saved in Christ, and
that the term is used in adifferent way are saved in
(17:48):
Christ and that the term is usedin a different way.
It's strictly and you pointedout the lexical definition of it
just to choose, and we need tobe careful not to read into
these passages what we think itmeans with the election.
We just need to take what doesthe context mean when it's
making a choice?
It's really no different thanthe word saved.
If you use saved or salvation,in some cases it's talking about
(18:08):
saved from sickness.
In other places it's talkingabout saved from sin, and so we
need to be careful when we lookat these passages.
What type of election we'redoing?
And maybe we'll get to it whenwe get to these passages, but
just don't want to make thatdistinction.
There are more than one, morethan two Bible teachers that use
more than one election.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
And that is one of my arguments is that the word
elect and the word chosenbecause again, the root word of
chosen is electos in manyoccasions, or from those roots
that it's been taken to where,every time it's used, that it
means salvation.
(18:50):
I would say that if you look atthe text themselves which we'll
do some that it's talking aboutbeing elect or chosen for a
purpose, and that other times ituses this word elect as the
group of the saved people.
So in the Old Testament theelect is used of the nation of
(19:15):
Israel.
That has nothing to do withsalvation, because the elect,
the chosen people of Israel, ithad some that were believers in
Yahweh and some that were notbelievers at all, but yet they
were known as God's choice, theapple of his eye, and the elect,
the ones that he chose as agroup.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
So speaking of chose, why don't we go ahead and jump
into one of the main passages,ephesians chapter one, 1, and
Ephesians chapter 1 is one ofthe favorite passages from our
Reformed friends because there'sa lot of things in Ephesians 1
that talk about what God does,and we'll talk about some of
this.
We're not going to exegete theentire chapter here, but
(20:00):
Ephesians 1, verses 3 and 4 saythis Blessed be the God and
Father of our Lord, jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every
spiritual blessing in theheavenly places in Christ, just
as he chose us in him before thefoundation of the world, that
we would be holy and blamelessbefore him in love.
(20:21):
That part right there,especially verse four, is one of
the main passages that get usedand brought up in the
discussion of Reformed theology.
Again, ephesians 1, verse 4,says just as he meaning God, he
chose us in him, meaning Christbefore the foundation of the
(20:43):
world.
So a reformed person would saylook, it says right there God
chose us in Christ before thefoundation of the world that we
would be holy and blameless.
And the blameless part is thepart that clearly means
salvation, because if you'reholy and blameless before God
prior to salvation, we're notholy and blameless.
(21:05):
We're unrighteous and we'refull of blame and full of God's
wrath because of our sin.
But in order to become holy andblameless, according to
Ephesians 1, 4, he chose us inChrist before the foundation of
the world.
So the Reformed person wouldstand here and say can't you
(21:26):
read?
It's really clear.
He says he chose us, and theywould even add the word to be in
Christ.
He chose us to be in Christbefore the foundation of the
world.
But even just as it reads, hechose us in Christ.
And when did he did it?
Before the foundation of theworld, before we were ever born.
(21:46):
And so the reformed peoplewould rest here and say, case
closed.
He chose us to be in Christ sothat we would be saved.
So what say ye?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
So I have some markup here in the text and I agree
with the way you read it thereand it's the way I have it
marked that he chose us in him,that there's no pause.
There's no, he chose us pausein him.
That it's a solid thought, thathe chose us in him before the
(22:19):
foundation of the world.
And the reason is for thepurpose is that we would be holy
and blameless before him inlove.
So this concept that Imentioned before, that Paul
talks about often in hisepistles of being in Christ or
not in Christ, that he iskeeping in the same vein of that
(22:42):
when he's writing to theseEphesians In Ephesians 1, he
says to the saints who are atEphesus and are faithful in
Christ Jesus, and as we followthat down, he says that whom are
blessed with every spiritualblessing.
In verse 3, the heavenly placesin Christ and to continue with
(23:04):
that.
That's the same sentence.
There's no pause there, just ashe chose us in him before the
foundation of the world.
So I take that and look at thatto be that it's fitting in that
concept of in Christ.
That's how we have salvation,we have salvation in Christ, and
that God, before the foundationof the world said this is the
(23:28):
way that I'm going to reconcilemankind back to myself.
It's going to be through Christ.
The ones who believe in him aregoing to be in Christ and
that's how I'm going toreconcile man back to myself.
Where I differ with what youcalled out on the Reformed,
where they want to put sometimesnot on everyone to be, the text
(23:52):
does not say to be in Christ.
It says that he chose us inChrist.
So I see that as just keepingin the same vein of Paul's
general message of being inChrist.
That's the method or the waythat God selected before the
foundation of the world ofcreation, that that was the way
(24:17):
that mankind was going to bereconciled back to himself.
So once again, as we look atthat also, everything here is a
group.
He chose us in him and to allthe saints who are faithful in
Christ.
So there's not any type ofindividuality that's noted here
(24:39):
and I think in the past in ourdiscussions you said, well, but
there has to be individuals thatget into Christ, correct?
But I think again, it's thisidea and concept that being in
Christ, you have salvation.
That's the way and the methodthat God chose and selected for
people to be reconciled back tohimself.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
So let me just ask to clarify and make sure I
understand what you're saying.
Ephesians 1, verse 4 says hechose us in him before the
foundation of the world.
Are you denying that thechoosing is what causes us to be
in Christ?
Speaker 2 (25:19):
No, I'm not, Because I believe that scripture is
clear that God does choose us.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Okay.
In other words, the question ishow did we get in Christ?
The Reformed guy would say it'shis choosing.
Is what causes us to be inChrist.
Right, and I think what I hearyou saying is that the choice
was of whoever happened to be inthe group and the Reformed guys
say no, he chose us, happenedto be in the group, and the
(25:47):
reformed guys say no, he choseus, he chose the individuals to
make up the group that I'm goingto pick one, three, five and
seven to be in Christ and I'mnot going to choose two, four,
six, eight and those are notgoing to be in Christ.
And so, therefore, I chosethose in Christ.
And I think what you're sayingis that his choice didn't cause
(26:08):
the group.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Here's how I would put it Whenever Abraham believed
in God, god reckoned it to himas being righteous.
That gives an idea that therewas a choice that was made by
God.
God chose to reckon that beliefthat Abraham expressed in him
(26:33):
as righteousness.
So that's where this word comesback to, that it depicts a
deliberation or a selection fromthat standpoint we talked about
at the very beginning, and Iagree that God doesn't have to
deliberate on anything, but it'snot an automatic.
(26:53):
In other words, when Abrahamexpressed his belief in God, god
wasn't bound to have to reckonit as righteousness.
He did, and he is bound fromthe standpoint of in regards to
Christ, because he has saidthrough scripture that whoever
shall believe on Jesus Christwill have eternal life.
(27:17):
So from that particular case,it is a promise that he has made
and he's bound in that regard,that he's made it clear that
that's the way to salvation.
But if it goes back to what theCalvinists like to always talk
up God's sovereignty and God cando what he wants to do and he
(27:38):
can do anything he wants to well, god can at any point in time
say no, I'm not going torecognize that.
But whenever somebody expressesfaith, god knows whether or not
they are sincere in it orwhether they're not sincere in
it, but it's so.
There's a choice.
Am I going to accept that ornot?
(27:58):
Is that person sincere or not?
That's how I describe thischoice.
That's related.
So to go back to clarify yourquestion, is that?
No, I'm not saying that.
God arbitrarily, before thefoundation of the world, said
I'm going to save particularpeople one, three, five and
(28:21):
seven but 2, 4, 6, and 8, personI'm not going to save.
I don't think that that isconsistent with what Scripture
says.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Okay, so response.
First of all again and we didthis last time in the last
session the Reformed guys wouldreply back and say well, he's
not arbitrary, he's full ofinfinite wisdom and so nothing
in God is arbitrary.
He's all wise and his wisechoice can choose who to be in
(28:53):
the group.
That's what they would say, andwe then pointed out that that's
inconsistent, because if you'regoing to hold that to strong,
total depravity, there's nocriteria to be wise upon,
because there's just nothingthere to make a wise choice upon
.
Nevertheless, that's what theywould reply.
I mean, to me it's just fairlyclear he chose us and he chose
(29:18):
the group.
But it's not saying here Idon't think you can get from
this language in this verse thatthere's this not saying here, I
don't think you can get fromthis language in this verse that
there's this group out here andhe chose this group for some
purpose, called, you know, forwhatever, to be a church or
something.
If he chose the group, he chosethe individuals in the group,
(29:40):
and what I think it's reallysaying.
The grammar of the sentencereally starts back in verse 3,
and it hinges on the words justas right.
So what he's really saying isthat God blessed us with every
spiritual blessing in theheavenly places that we would be
(30:00):
holy and blameless before him.
That's what he's saying.
But what he's saying is, youknow, just like he chose us in
him, then that same way he'sblessing us with every spiritual
blessing and he's doing all ofthat so that we can be holy and
blameless before him in love.
So the blessing us with everyspiritual blessing is in the
(30:25):
same way as he chose us inChrist, and all of that is so
that we would be holy andblameless before him.
So to me there's a logicaldependence here in the sentence
in between the blessing in verse3 and the choosing in verse 4,
(30:45):
and the being holy and blamelessbefore him in love.
In other words, the logicaldependence in the sentence is
the only way we can be blamelessbefore him is if he chose us in
Christ and I think that's whatit's saying and that I can take
a strong view of the electionthere, and that what it's saying
(31:05):
in verse 4 is the reason whywe're holy and blameless and the
blameless is strongjustification is because he
chose us in Christ.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah, and again, I agree with the choosing, that
God does the choosing and I'veexplained how I believe that
that is done.
So on these verses here, I havedepicted in the bottom part
there where I have the red X's,that I don't think there is this
(31:37):
division here that he chose us,pause in him and the we is that
he chose us.
I believe the one with thecheck mark above it is that the
we is that whole.
He chose us in him, being thathe chose us in Christ.
And then the last verse that Ihave there, which is the first
one, is that we don't do thatwith the first verse.
(31:59):
We don't say who are faithful,pause in Christ Jesus.
We read that.
Or saying who are faithful inChrist Jesus, we read that first
verse all is one, and sotherefore verse four should be
read as all is one as well.
But let me address this If weread a little bit further into
(32:21):
chapter two, if we have thisconcept that God chooses people
before the foundation of theworld and thus doesn't choose
other people before thefoundation of the world to be in
Christ, okay, if we follow thatlogic, when we look at chapter
2, chapter 2 starts off thereand he says you were dead in
(32:42):
your trespasses and sins inverse 1, in which you formerly
walked, according to the courseof this world, according to the
prince of power of the heir ofthe spirit that is now working
with the sons of disobedience.
And so if we have this conceptof God choosing specific
(33:04):
individuals before thefoundation of the world and not
choosing other individuals, thenwe're not born in Christ.
And chapter two, verse onethrough three, there the first
couple of verses make that clear.
We're born not in Christ.
So the question comes into wellthen, when did we become in
(33:26):
Christ?
And with me it was at the ageof eight.
With you it was at the age of25.
Right, with other people it'sat the age of 80s.
When they're in their 80s,after they've lived a life with
some people, they have done veryhorrendous deeds in their life
before they come to Christ,before they have become a
(33:49):
believer, and then are in Christ.
And so, to reread a little bitfurther, in my mind it's a
little bit of inconsistency tohave this idea that, okay,
before the foundation of theworld, god chooses certain
people to be in Christ.
He doesn't choose others to bein Christ, and within that group
(34:10):
that he chose before thefoundation of the world.
He also says but I'm going tochoose that person to be in
Christ at eight, and I'm goingto choose another person to be
in Christ at 25, and I'm goingto choose another person to be
in Christ after they've gonethrough 10 years of drug abuse,
and et cetera, et cetera, etcetera.
And so that, to me, is adilemma that doesn't explain or
(34:35):
is inconsistent with the rest ofScripture that describes people
that they're coming to Christbecause they come to a point
that they realize that they needto be reconciled back to God.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
And for our audience.
You see how the arms of theoctopus tend to move a lot, like
we said at the beginning.
Because my next question wouldbe back on the morality of God
and we're into a theologicaldiscussion, but back to the
Bible passages.
One last question about 1-4,and then we'll move on to the
(35:09):
next thing.
In 1-4, he chose us in himbefore the foundation of the
world that we would be holy andblameless, the that I'm assuming
we could translate so that, orin order that right, he's saying
a conclusion there, is he not?
So there's a conclusion that'sbeing drawn that we would be
(35:29):
holy and blameless, and theblameless again is the key word
justification.
So is it not saying thatthere's a logical conclusion
there?
He chose us that we could beholy and blameless.
It is not an if-then, so tospeak, or a so-that the first
(35:50):
condition is met and then theconclusion draws he chose us in
him before the foundation of theworld so that we would be holy
and blameless.
Is not there a holy andblameless dependent on the
choosing?
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Well, and I would say that that's correct that there
is a condition.
The condition is in Him.
So, to go back to the way I'veexpressed, it is that the
condition for salvation is to bein Christ and that when you're
in Christ then you would be holyand blameless before Him.
Again, colossians spoke reallystrongly about that and we
(36:24):
discussed that at lengthwhenever we went through
Colossians.
So again, it comes back to that.
Yes, I would put that conditionof in him.
That's the way and that that'sthe choice, is the general way
to be, have salvation.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
So for our audience right here is where it falls
into 12 more weeks of yes itdoes.
No, it's not, yes, it does.
Now, what I want to talk aboutin Ephesians 1 is something that
our Calvinist friends are notgoing to like, because this
passage, I think, is a supporterof something that I don't hear
(36:59):
them talk about.
First of all, ephesians 1 isjust a wonderful, wonderful
passage and it has a long listin there of these wonderful
things that God is doing for us.
And if you just start atEphesians 1 and just kind of
walk your way down through thepassage just in chapter 1, I
(37:22):
counted 25 things that God doesfor us.
It's a long list.
He does all these beautiful,wonderful things, and it's
obvious from the verb tenses inthe passage that God is doing
these things, and that's one ofthe reasons why our Reformed
friends love it, and so doeseverybody else, for that matter.
He blessed us, he chose us, hepredestined us, he bestowed on
(37:45):
us, he redeemed us, he forgaveus, he lavished grace on us, he
made known to us his will, hegave us an inheritance, he
sealed us, he gave us aredemption, he gave us wisdom,
and on and on and on these 25things, and they're all
wonderful and he does them all.
So this beautiful list of allthis wonderful stuff that God
(38:08):
does for us, he is doing it, hedid this, he did that, he did
the other thing.
God did this.
He bestows on us, he seals us.
Right in the middle, verses 12and 13,.
Literally almost right in themiddle of verses 12 and 13,
literally almost right in themiddle of the list of 25, we
(38:31):
were the first to hope.
Verse 13,.
You listened, verse 13,.
You believed Whoa, wait aminute time out.
Why'd you change Paul?
He changed right in the middle.
Again, big list, wonderful,tremendous spiritual,
(38:53):
theological concepts redemption,wisdom, sealing, predestination
, forgiveness.
He does it, he does it, he doesit.
You heard, you believed.
To me that is a 10-foot-highglowing red neon sign that we
(39:15):
did it.
It was our faith.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Why do.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
I think it's our faith, because it says so right
in the passage.
If it would have been the casethat he caused us to believe,
this would have been the placeit was been.
If it was the case, he gave usthe ability to believe, it would
have been here Because 25things again he gave us
(39:41):
redemption, he lavished grace,he purposed his intentions.
He gave us redemption, helavished grace, he purposed his
intentions.
He gave us an inheritance, hepredestined us.
He works all things we hoped,you listened, you believed.
And then he goes back to thelist God sealed us.
God gives us pledge he willredeem us.
He gives us wisdom.
Pledge, he will redeem us.
(40:07):
He gives us wisdom.
So he breaks the pattern whereRight at the point of belief.
This is why I think that, yes,there's a lot of benefits to
Reformed theology, but we haveglasses on.
Sometimes we put on thesesystematic theological glasses
and we miss very obvious again,flashing red neon sign who
(40:30):
believed, you believed.
Who listened, you listened.
And you have to listen prior tothe belief.
And so the logical case here isthat the listening and the
belief, which is the salvificbelief, is done by the person,
(40:53):
and it's not a good work, it'sjust listening and believing and
therefore all of the work ofrighteousness happens with all
these other things, and to me,this is just one of the
strongest cases that the beliefis ours and regeneration before
faith is not taught in Scriptureand belief is not a work of
righteousness.
(41:13):
The whole monergism-synergismdebate is a nice thing to sit on
the shelf, but it's not basedin Scripture, it's just not so.
Comment, steve, you'd probablyagree with that.
Yeah, I do agree with that.
We're going to stop right herefor today, but we have more.
So, because there's a lot here,we want to cover these in
detail.
So be back with us next time aswe continue to go through these
(41:37):
passages about Reformedtheology.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
And look for these resources on our website,
reasoningthroughthebiblecom.
As always, thank you so muchfor watching and listening.
May God bless you.
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