Jesus' Olivet Discourse stands as one of Scripture's most profound prophetic teachings, delivered from the Mount of Olives as He gazed across Jerusalem during His final week before crucifixion. Today we continue to wade into these deep waters, examining a critical section of Mark 13 that points toward Jesus' glorious return.
At the heart of our discussion is the question: which portions of Jesus' prophecy were fulfilled in the first century, and which await future fulfillment? The answer emerges through careful attention to the sequence Jesus provides. "After that tribulation," He declares, cosmic signs will appear, the Son of Man will come in the clouds, and angels will gather the elect from earth and heaven.
We explore why false messiahs can be identified by their secretive or limited "appearances," while Christ's true return will be unmistakable—like lightning flashing across the sky. The deeply Jewish context of Jesus' teaching becomes evident as He quotes directly from Isaiah's prophecies about judgment on all nations, not just Israel.
Most compelling is the realization that the events described—cosmic disturbances, Christ's visible return in glory, and a universal gathering of God's people—simply don't align with what happened when Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. There was no dramatic sign in the heavens, no visible appearance of Christ, and no gathering of believers that hadn't already been occurring.
For listeners wondering about the timeline of end-time events, this passage offers clarity: the tribulation period will conclude with Christ's unmistakable return in glory, accompanied by angels who will gather His chosen ones from across earth and heaven. What a glorious day that will be! Join us as we continue unpacking this profound teaching.
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May God Bless you!! - Glenn and Steve
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Sometimes in the Word of God we have passages that
are easy and quick and sometimeswe have passages that are deep
and profound.
Well, today we are in the OlivetDiscourse, and it's deep enough
to where I think we need ourlife jacket, because it's going
to be quite profound and quitedeep and wide.
We're in Mark, chapter 13.
(00:43):
If you have your copy of theWord of God, turn there.
We're in what's called theOlivet Discourse, because Jesus
is giving a message in the daysbefore he is killed on the cross
from the Mount of Olives, andhe is speaking there as he looks
over the city of Jerusalem andhis disciples have asked him
(01:03):
questions about when the city isgoing to be destroyed and when
he will come and when will bethe end of the age.
As we saw last time, part ofthis section in the Olivet
Discourse was fulfilled in thefirst century, and today we're
going to get into some sectionsand we're going to explain why
that we believe that other partsof it are only fulfilled in the
(01:25):
future.
Steve, this is going to bequite an adventure and I hope we
can really get through it, butit's a little complicated, but I
think it's very interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
It is very interesting, especially when you
go through it verse by verseand go through it in detail.
There's a lot of little thingsin here to be able to pull out
of the text.
It's a little bit curious thatMark doesn't go into as much
detail as Matthew does, and itseems like we have spent a
little bit more time on thisthan we did with Matthew.
(01:57):
But yeah, there's still a lotof things to go through here.
I'm looking forward to goingthrough this session.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
As a reminder, just prior to this Olivet Discourse,
jesus has come into Jerusalem.
He spoke the things thatoccurred in Matthew, chapter 23,
where he very directlyconfronted the Jewish leaders
and called them hypocrites,called them dens of snakes.
He overturned the tables of themoney changers.
(02:24):
He let loose the animals thatwere being sold.
He prevented people fromtreating the place like it was
an area of commerce and hechallenged them to make it a
house of prayer.
He very clearly taught parablesthat was against them, that
said that their power would betaken away and their position
(02:45):
would be taken away.
Jesus is forcing the hand ofthese leaders and today he's
giving some advice to hisdisciples on when the end of the
age will come.
Steve, can you read Mark,chapter 13, starting in verse 21
and going down to verse 27?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Then if anyone says to you, behold, here is the
Christ, or Behold he is there,do not believe him, for false
Christs and false prophets willarise and will show signs and
wonders in order to lead astray,if possible, the elect.
But take heed, behold, I havetold you everything in advance.
(03:24):
But in those days after thattribulation, the sun will be
darkened and the moon will notgive its light, and the stars
will be falling from heaven andthe powers that are in the
heaven will be shaken.
Then they will see the Son ofman coming in the clouds with
great power and glory.
Then he will send forth theangels and will gather together
(03:46):
his elect from the four winds,from the farthest end of the
earth to the farthest end ofheaven, in verse 21 and 22,.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
He's talking there about people coming along saying
well, here's the Christ, orthere he is, steve.
What do you find interestingabout those verses, as he says a
little bit later.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
He's telling them these things in advance.
He's saying that there's goingto be many Christ or Messiahs
that are going to come and claimthat they're in one place, or
claim that they're in anotherplace and that they're not to be
deceived.
We see that many times thatJesus tells them, before he
gives them warnings don't bedeceived, don't be deluded.
(04:30):
And we're seeing the same thinghere.
He's not saying if.
Here he's saying when you seethese Christ that say they're
one place or the other, don'tfollow after them, because
obviously Jesus is the Messiah.
There's not going to be anyother Messiah after him.
I think, glenn, that thispossibly comes from the teaching
(04:51):
that the rabbis had that therewere going to be two Messiahs.
There was going to be firstcome a Messiah that was the
suffering Messiah.
Then there was going to be asecond Messiah that was going to
come later.
That was going to be theconquering Messiah.
So I think that Jesus istelling them I am the one and
only Messiah.
I am about to go and suffer.
(05:12):
He's already told them thatbefore he began teaching them
that the Messiah must suffer.
But I think here he's saying Iam the only one, I'm going to
come back, but I'm also going tocome back and be that
conquering Messiah.
There's not going to be anyother Messiah.
I am the only one.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
What he's saying here is that when Christ comes back,
it's going to be very clear toeveryone.
Over in Matthew in the OlivetDiscourse, he says it's going to
be as clear as if you werestanding outside at night and
lightning flashed all the wayfrom one end of the sky to the
other.
No one can miss it.
It's going to be very obvious.
(05:50):
So if there's ever a time whensomebody comes along and says,
oh, the Christ is here, but youmissed it, then you'll know that
person's a false prophet.
There's people such as theJehovah's Witnesses have claimed
that Jesus returned invisibly.
There was people a few yearsback that said that Christ has
returned, but he's hidden, he'snot going to reveal himself yet.
(06:12):
He's been waiting.
All these people are falseteachers and that's what this
passage is telling us is thatwhen he comes back, everyone
will know believers,non-believers.
There's not going to be anydoubt that Christ has come back.
So if anybody comes along andsays, oh, jesus has returned or
the Messiah is here and peopleare in doubt about it, then
(06:35):
that's a false teacher, becausewhen he does come back, it's
going to be very clear.
The next thing he talks aboutin here is that false Christ
doing false wonders, steve, canfalse prophets do false?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
miracles.
Yeah, we saw that when we wentthrough Exodus the sorcerers
that were Pharaoh's sorcerers.
They mimicked some of the earlysigns that Moses did throwing
down the staff and it became asnake and some other things.
Now Moses' snake swallowedtheirs up to prove that God,
(07:10):
yahweh, was more powerful thantheirs.
But yeah, I think that thereare certain things that the
demonic world or Satan can dothat will appear to be signs or
miracles.
They're not like the ones thatGod or Jesus does, but we have
some examples of that here.
He also says that there'll besigns and wonders in order to
(07:33):
lead astray.
So I think that there's somethat are going to be falsified,
made to look like actually asign or a wonder.
I think there might be someother ones that will seem more
legitimate, but in any case,it's.
What do they say afterwards?
Are they leading the people toGod, the Father, jesus, or are
(07:55):
they all leading people astrayand away from Jesus?
It's the context around thosesigns and wonders that people
need to pay attention to.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
That last part you mentioned is exactly correct.
The question is who gets thecredit?
Does the Lord get the credit orall the attention falling on
the man up at the platform?
Many of these people I see, thepeople that gets glorified is
the person on the sign.
It's the person up at the frontof the church building or in
front of the service.
The people that get the gloryare the ones that are getting
(08:28):
the attention and that meansthat we need to be careful.
Just because somebody's doing amiracle doesn't mean they are a
true prophet.
They could be false prophetsand this passage says that, that
they can be lying wonders andfalse miracles Just because
there's miracles and there'speople running around the
countryside claiming to domiracles.
(08:49):
Some of them are fake, some ofthem could be legit, but this
says that false prophets andfalse Christ will show signs and
wonders.
So just because they'respeaking religious language and
doing signs and wonders doesn'tmean they're true prophets.
They could be false prophets.
(09:09):
Verse 22 also implies that it'simpossible to deceive the elect
, because that's what it impliesthere to deceive, if possible,
even the elect.
It implies that you can't.
Next thing, we have a majorswitch, or at least a major
(09:31):
indication of a time frame here,starting in verse 24 and 25.
Steve, what does it say?
These things will happen afterwhat?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
After that tribulation, things will happen
after what?
After that tribulation?
That means that there is goingto be a period of tribulation
that's going to be specific.
It's not going to be anextended persecution or a time
of tribulation that's going tolast centuries.
It's going to be a specifictribulation.
That's what Jesus is sayingAfter that tribulation.
(10:00):
The one that he said before isthat the sun's going to be
darkened, the moon will not giveits light, and et cetera.
In this, passage.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
It's giving a rather clear sequence.
If we look at verse 24, afterthat tribulation, verse 26, then
they will see the Son of man,verse 27, then he will send
forth the angels to gather theelect.
Very clearly, jesus is giving asequence and it starts with
(10:31):
after the tribulation.
Therefore, we can tell somethings about when things are
going to happen, at least asequence not the year, but the
sequence, if we just followwhat's clearly written down here
.
The sequence does not fit afulfillment in the first century
, as held by many preterists,amillennialists and
(10:53):
postmillennialists that claimthat many of these things were
fulfilled in Jerusalem, andspecifically they talk about 70
AD, when the Romans came anddestroyed Jerusalem.
First of all, the sequence hereagain starts out after the
tribulation, the Son of man willcome and the angels will gather
(11:15):
the elect from the four winds.
First of all, when it says theangels are gathering the elect
from the four winds.
First of all, when it says theangels are gathering the elect
from the four winds, that didn'tchange in 70 AD.
If we say it's the saved peoplebeing gathered by the angels,
which is what the preterists areclaiming, well, that was
happening prior to 70 AD, atleast from the day of Pentecost
(11:38):
and really all of history,people were saved by grace,
through faith, so God's chosenone were being brought into
fellowship with him.
That didn't change in 70 AD.
It didn't start after 70 AD.
Also, the Son of man was seen.
Was Jesus.
He was seen prior to 70 AD.
(11:58):
It didn't change, some of thesepeople claim.
Well, once Jerusalem wasdestroyed, then it was the
leaders of Jerusalem that sawJesus now as being oh, we were
wrong all along.
We're seeing Jesus as theMessiah now.
That didn't change.
That didn't happen.
Basically, there was no massconversion of Jewish leadership
in 70 AD.
(12:19):
They were just as lost as theywere prior to that.
None of these things happenedin 70 AD.
Even figuratively, coming inthe clouds the Son of man coming
in the clouds does not mean, assome said, coming into heaven.
That's been one interpretationthat we saw.
It means Jesus returning, thatwe saw.
(12:39):
It means Jesus returning Stevesix times in this chapter alone.
Mark, chapter 13, mentionsJesus return or his coming six
times.
Well, it can't be talking abouthis first coming, because he
was at the end of his ministrywhen he's giving this message
and he was already there at thetime and by the time 70 AD
(13:01):
happened, the church had been inexistence for many decades.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
We have to have something else, simply because
the sequence of history that'sclearly given after the
tribulation of those days justdoes not fit the first century
and, to add what you were justtalking about, glenn, that
tribulation that's mentionedthere in that verse harkens back
to verse 19 that says For thosedays will be a time of
(13:28):
tribulation such as has notoccurred since the beginning of
the creation which God createduntil now and never will.
We spoke a little bit about thisin our last session when we
went through this.
But there have been other timesof persecution of the Jewish
people throughout history.
(13:49):
But there have been other timesthat have been worse than 70 AD
.
Especially mid-20th century wasthe greatest one, which
actually led to them becoming anation and being reconstituted
as a nation itself.
That tribulation that hementions there in verse 27 is
hearkening back to the one thathe mentioned in 19, and it goes
(14:11):
right along with everything thatyou said.
Nothing really changed after 70AD.
In fact there were some timesthat were a little bit worse,
but it's nothing that 70 ADwasn't a pinnacle of persecution
or tribulation for the Jewishpeople.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Then we must deal with.
What do these apocalypticphrases actually mean?
In verses 24 and 25, itmentions the sun was darkened,
the moon did not give light, thestars falling from heaven, the
heavens will be shaken, son ofman coming in the clouds.
What does this descriptivelanguage really mean?
(14:51):
Well, he's in this passage.
When he mentions those things,he's directly quoting the Old
Testament.
He is directly quoting Isaiah13.10.
In Isaiah 13, god is judging thenations plural, not just Israel
.
If we go back and we look atthe quotation from Isaiah 13.10,
(15:13):
the next two or three or fourverses immediately after that
deal with God judging the wholeworld.
Isaiah 13.11,.
The exact next verse says ThusI will punish the world for its
evil.
The next verse, 13.12,.
I will make mortal man scarcerthan pure gold.
(15:36):
Isaiah 13.14, quote they willeach turn to his own people and
each one flee to his own land.
The context of what Jesus isquoting here is in God judging
all the nations of the earth,all the nations.
Again, they will each flee tohis own land.
(15:56):
This was a God pouring out hiswrath on the whole world.
Stars falling from heaven is aquote from Isaiah chapter 34,
which also talks about thevengeance of God the day of
vengeance.
In Isaiah 34, the versesimmediately prior to the one
(16:17):
about the host of heaven talkabout the Lord being against all
the nations.
The context of each of thesequotes is about God judging the
entire world, not just Israel.
Therefore, we cannot say thatthe apocalyptic language in Mark
13, verses 24 to 26, is onlytalking about judging Israel in
(16:40):
the first century.
It just doesn't fit.
The people listening to himwould know these passages in
Isaiah quite clearly and when hequotes that they would know oh,
that's that time when God'sgoing to judge the whole world.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
There's a term that Jeremiah uses about this
tribulation that's going to comeon Israel.
He quotes it as saying the timeof Jacob's trouble and of
course, jacob is a synonym forthe nation of Israel.
I think people have taken thatand some other things about the
tribulation Glenn throughout thecenturies and they have applied
(17:16):
that, this tribulation Glennthroughout the centuries and
they have applied that thistribulation period, the
seven-year period, andespecially the last three and a
half years.
Because, again before in ourlast session, jesus says when
you see the abomination ofdesolation spoken of in Daniel,
well, in Daniel, that's at themidpoint of this 70th week of
Daniel, this week of tribulation, these seven years, that they
(17:41):
feel that this tribulation isonly specific to Israel.
But it's not.
You just got through sayingthat in Isaiah that talks about
all of the nations being judged,and this time period is all of
the nations coming againstIsrael.
They are persecuting.
(18:02):
The tribulation of Israel isfrom all the other nations that
are being led by a satanicperson.
God actually comes to saveIsrael, just like he did back in
the time of Judges I'vementioned before.
I think that this tribulationperiod, the time of Judges, was
(18:24):
a shadow of this.
What happened.
They were oppressed until theygot to a point that they called
out for God to save them.
He sent a judge that defeatedthe oppressors and then they had
a time of peace.
I think that was the shadow ofthis.
They're going to be sooppressed in this tribulation
period from the other nations.
They're going to call out toGod for deliverance and Jesus is
(18:49):
going to come and they're goingto look and see Jesus and
notice him and mourn, asZacharias says, on the one whom
they had pierced, and then theywill finally recognize that
Jesus was the Messiah.
We have this collection of theelect, from the angels, from all
of it.
You have so eloquentlydescribed that 70 AD just
(19:10):
doesn't fit this time period ofwhat is being discussed here and
said and explained by Jesusduring these verses.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
The sequence therefore, if we just read Mark
13, is quite clear.
Mark 13, 14 begins talkingabout the abomination of
desolation, as mentioned byDaniel, that is, in the middle
of the Great Tribulation period.
Mark 13, 24 begins talkingabout after the Tribulation
that's what it says wheneveryone are going to see Jesus
(19:42):
return on the clouds with greatglory.
That's the theme and thesequence.
That's just clearly presentedhere.
If we just go back and look atthe quotes in Isaiah and the
context for that and we don'ttry to read New Testament
systematic theology back intothe Old Testament context, then
(20:02):
all the pieces just kind of fallout very clearly.
Verse 26, question Steve whatdoes that verse say about the
return of Jesus?
What will it be like when hecomes back?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
It says that he'll be coming on the clouds, but he'll
be coming with great power andgreat glory.
It's going to be something thatI think everybody's going to
see.
It's not going to be somethingthat's going to be limited to
just the Jerusalem area.
There's going to be acataclysmic event in his return.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
The way we know.
That is the phrase there comingin the clouds, the Son of man
coming.
Well, he was already there onMount of Olives when he said
that He'd already come the firsttime.
But coming in the clouds is aphrase that's used several times
in the Bible Daniel 7.13,revelation 1.7, mark 8-38,.
Already in this exact book he'stalking about him coming in his
(20:58):
glory.
The cloud is the glory of God.
That goes all the way back towandering in the wilderness and
in the tabernacle and in thetemple.
We had talked about thatseveral times.
The cloud is the Shekinah gloryof God that is ever-present
around the Lord.
He's coming in his glory.
That's the key here.
(21:19):
The second coming will be inhis glory.
The first coming was not in hisglory.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Now, Glenn, I think that you recently saw a teacher
that was trying to attributethis coming into the clouds as
Jesus coming into the throneroom as he ascended, but that
just doesn't make sense does it?
Speaker 1 (21:39):
No, it doesn't.
We research these things,trying to get different
perspectives, make sure wedidn't miss something.
Some people again.
If you've already decided thatmany of these things are
fulfilled in the first century,well then, what do you do?
Because it clearly says afterthe tribulation, then Jesus is
coming in the clouds?
Well, some, what do you do?
Because it clearly says afterthe tribulation, then Jesus is
coming in the clouds?
Well, some of them try.
Well, maybe he means cominginto heaven.
(22:01):
It's just a strange teachingthat takes going into heaven and
turn it into coming.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
It's also odd that how can Jesus ascending and
going away from the earth be thesame thing as him coming, as it
says here, coming back?
Of course, the angel that wasstanding there with the ones
that were looking up said he'sgoing to be returning the same
way that he left, so that justdoesn't make sense to me either.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Then we have in verse 27, this phrase here where he
says he will send forth theangels, gather together his
elect from the four winds, fromthe farthest end of earth and
the farthest end of heaven.
What do we do with that?
Well, the elect there people'smind automatically go to
passages in the New Testamentepistles that talk about the
(22:49):
elect, but the elect are merelythe chosen.
If we take this again, thislanguage, we have to look at
what it says.
It's not really complicated.
There's several clues here inthis that tell us where this is
from.
First of all, he says veryclearly here in verse 27, the
gathering includes gatheringfrom not just the earth but from
(23:12):
heaven.
He's gathering the elect fromthe earth and from heaven.
And we also know this gatheringbegins after the tribulation,
verse 24.
If we say, does this fit NewTestament evangelism, where
people will go out and lostsinners will hear the gospel and
repent and become a chosen one,so to speak?
(23:33):
Well, it really just doesn'tfit One, because angels are
never said to go out and gatherlost people and gather the elect
during the church age.
That's never spoken of.
Mark 8.38 Jesus says the Son ofman will come in glory and with
angels with him.
Then, most importantly, in thecontext again, he just got
(23:55):
through quoting we told you theOld Testament.
This is yet another quote fromthe Old Testament.
Several times in the OldTestament speaks of gathering
Israel back to the land ofIsrael.
For example, deuteronomy 30,verses 3 through 6,.
If any of Israel are scatteredto the farthest parts under
(24:17):
heaven, god will gather themback to the land.
Ezekiel 36, verse 24,.
Israel disobeyed and God judgedthem by scattering them amongst
the nations.
In that verse, ezekiel 36, 24,god is going to gather them back
from where he had scatteredthem and bring them back to the
(24:37):
land.
Isaiah 11, 12,.
God will gather the Jews fromthe four corners of the earth.
Isaiah 31, 8,.
God will gather Israel from theends of the earth.
Isaiah 43, 5 and following.
God will gather Israel from alldirections.
God will gather Israel from alldirections.
We had Jewish people.
Steve in a Jewish context whenhe says that their people are
(25:00):
going to be gathered from theearth and heaven what are they
going to be thinking of?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
They're going to be thinking of Jesus Christ
whenever they're being gathered.
As you've mentioned severaltimes, in this, the sequence
begins with verse 24, where itsays after this tribulation
period.
Here in this, the sequencebegins with verse 24, where it
says after this tribulationperiod.
Here, in 27, we have thecontext that it's during this
tribulation period are all ofthese elect, which simply means
(25:29):
chosen.
Now, again, the nation ofIsrael were chosen.
People were chosen for hispurpose.
This is a thoroughly Jewish text, as you just got through
talking about, and I believethat this is talking about those
Jewish people, the nation ofJewish people, that are left
alive at the end of thistribulation period.
(25:52):
I think it's okay if we want toadd there some Gentile
believers that have also come tofaith during that tribulation
period.
I think it's okay if we want toadd there some Gentile
believers that have also come tofaith during that tribulation
period.
But it leads to that this isthe time frame that it's talking
about, of the gathering fromthose seven years of tribulation
.
You have also an inference fromheaven this is, I think,
possibly the Old Testamentsaints, the Jewish ones, that
(26:15):
he's also gathering.
This is all prior to going intothe restored kingdom, which is
the next phase after thetribulation.
As you've mentioned, and wehave throughout this session,
verse 24 sets the stage as towhen these events are happening
and who it's happening to.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
If we just follow the language here in the text in
Mark 13, all the pieces fallinto place.
If we just hold it to be whatit says, which is, at the end of
the Great Tribulation period,god is going to gather the
saints from the four winds andfrom heaven at the end of the
Great Tribulation period, it allfits very perfectly and matches
(26:57):
with the Old Testament there.
If we, on the other hand, holdthat the tribulation spoken of
as the preterist dude is theRoman attack on Jerusalem in 70
AD, then we have big problems,simply because nothing really
changed in salvation or Jesus'srole or how people come into the
(27:21):
kingdom.
None of that changed before andafter 70 AD.
In 75 AD was no different inhow people were saved or Jesus's
role than in 65 AD.
There was no mass conversion ofJewish people.
There was no gathering ofsaints after 70 AD.
That didn't happen prior to 70AD, and so therefore, the only
(27:44):
place that really fits is justwhat it says, which is the
abomination of desolationhappens, according to Daniel.
Then, at the end of that, thosethat endure will be saved and
Jesus is going to return in allhis glory.
The angels are going to gatherthe saints from the earth and
heaven at the end of the greattribulation period.
(28:06):
Steve, what a glorious daythat's going to be.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
That is going to be a glorious day and I will be
looking forward to it.
I think you agree with me.
We'll be in heaven watchingthat, being prepared to come
back with Jesus whenever hecomes in the clouds with him.
But it's going to be a gloriousday.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Well, tune in next time.
We've got even more parts ofthe Olivet Discourse.
It's so rich and there's somuch here that there's more
glorious things, and I trustthat you'll be back next time
and bring your life jacket,because it's going to be just as
deep.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Thank you so much for watching and listening.
May God bless you.
Sometimes in the Word of God we have passages that
are easy and quick and sometimeswe have passages that are deep
and profound.
Well, today we are in the OlivetDiscourse, and it's deep enough
to where I think we need ourlife jacket, because it's going
to be quite profound and quitedeep and wide.
We're in Mark, chapter 13.
(00:43):
If you have your copy of theWord of God, turn there.
We're in what's called theOlivet Discourse, because Jesus
is giving a message in the daysbefore he is killed on the cross
from the Mount of Olives, andhe is speaking there as he looks
over the city of Jerusalem andhis disciples have asked him
(01:03):
questions about when the city isgoing to be destroyed and when
he will come and when will bethe end of the age.
As we saw last time, part ofthis section in the Olivet
Discourse was fulfilled in thefirst century, and today we're
going to get into some sectionsand we're going to explain why
that we believe that other partsof it are only fulfilled in the
(01:25):
future.
Steve, this is going to bequite an adventure and I hope we
can really get through it, butit's a little complicated, but I
think it's very interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
It is very interesting, especially when you
go through it verse by verseand go through it in detail.
There's a lot of little thingsin here to be able to pull out
of the text.
It's a little bit curious thatMark doesn't go into as much
detail as Matthew does, and itseems like we have spent a
little bit more time on thisthan we did with Matthew.
(01:57):
But yeah, there's still a lotof things to go through here.
I'm looking forward to goingthrough this session.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
As a reminder, just prior to this Olivet Discourse,
jesus has come into Jerusalem.
He spoke the things thatoccurred in Matthew, chapter 23,
where he very directlyconfronted the Jewish leaders
and called them hypocrites,called them dens of snakes.
He overturned the tables of themoney changers.
(02:24):
He let loose the animals thatwere being sold.
He prevented people fromtreating the place like it was
an area of commerce and hechallenged them to make it a
house of prayer.
He very clearly taught parablesthat was against them, that
said that their power would betaken away and their position
(02:45):
would be taken away.
Jesus is forcing the hand ofthese leaders and today he's
giving some advice to hisdisciples on when the end of the
age will come.
Steve, can you read Mark,chapter 13, starting in verse 21
and going down to verse 27?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Then if anyone says to you, behold, here is the
Christ, or Behold he is there,do not believe him, for false
Christs and false prophets willarise and will show signs and
wonders in order to lead astray,if possible, the elect.
But take heed, behold, I havetold you everything in advance.
(03:24):
But in those days after thattribulation, the sun will be
darkened and the moon will notgive its light, and the stars
will be falling from heaven andthe powers that are in the
heaven will be shaken.
Then they will see the Son ofman coming in the clouds with
great power and glory.
Then he will send forth theangels and will gather together
(03:46):
his elect from the four winds,from the farthest end of the
earth to the farthest end ofheaven, in verse 21 and 22,.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
He's talking there about people coming along saying
well, here's the Christ, orthere he is, steve.
What do you find interestingabout those verses, as he says a
little bit later.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
He's telling them these things in advance.
He's saying that there's goingto be many Christ or Messiahs
that are going to come and claimthat they're in one place, or
claim that they're in anotherplace and that they're not to be
deceived.
We see that many times thatJesus tells them, before he
gives them warnings don't bedeceived, don't be deluded.
(04:30):
And we're seeing the same thinghere.
He's not saying if.
Here he's saying when you seethese Christ that say they're
one place or the other, don'tfollow after them, because
obviously Jesus is the Messiah.
There's not going to be anyother Messiah after him.
I think, glenn, that thispossibly comes from the teaching
(04:51):
that the rabbis had that therewere going to be two Messiahs.
There was going to be firstcome a Messiah that was the
suffering Messiah.
Then there was going to be asecond Messiah that was going to
come later.
That was going to be theconquering Messiah.
So I think that Jesus istelling them I am the one and
only Messiah.
I am about to go and suffer.
(05:12):
He's already told them thatbefore he began teaching them
that the Messiah must suffer.
But I think here he's saying Iam the only one, I'm going to
come back, but I'm also going tocome back and be that
conquering Messiah.
There's not going to be anyother Messiah.
I am the only one.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
What he's saying here is that when Christ comes back,
it's going to be very clear toeveryone.
Over in Matthew in the OlivetDiscourse, he says it's going to
be as clear as if you werestanding outside at night and
lightning flashed all the wayfrom one end of the sky to the
other.
No one can miss it.
It's going to be very obvious.
(05:50):
So if there's ever a time whensomebody comes along and says,
oh, the Christ is here, but youmissed it, then you'll know that
person's a false prophet.
There's people such as theJehovah's Witnesses have claimed
that Jesus returned invisibly.
There was people a few yearsback that said that Christ has
returned, but he's hidden, he'snot going to reveal himself yet.
(06:12):
He's been waiting.
All these people are falseteachers and that's what this
passage is telling us is thatwhen he comes back, everyone
will know believers,non-believers.
There's not going to be anydoubt that Christ has come back.
So if anybody comes along andsays, oh, jesus has returned or
the Messiah is here and peopleare in doubt about it, then
(06:35):
that's a false teacher, becausewhen he does come back, it's
going to be very clear.
The next thing he talks aboutin here is that false Christ
doing false wonders, steve, canfalse prophets do false?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
miracles.
Yeah, we saw that when we wentthrough Exodus the sorcerers
that were Pharaoh's sorcerers.
They mimicked some of the earlysigns that Moses did throwing
down the staff and it became asnake and some other things.
Now Moses' snake swallowedtheirs up to prove that God,
(07:10):
yahweh, was more powerful thantheirs.
But yeah, I think that thereare certain things that the
demonic world or Satan can dothat will appear to be signs or
miracles.
They're not like the ones thatGod or Jesus does, but we have
some examples of that here.
He also says that there'll besigns and wonders in order to
(07:33):
lead astray.
So I think that there's somethat are going to be falsified,
made to look like actually asign or a wonder.
I think there might be someother ones that will seem more
legitimate, but in any case,it's.
What do they say afterwards?
Are they leading the people toGod, the Father, jesus, or are
(07:55):
they all leading people astrayand away from Jesus?
It's the context around thosesigns and wonders that people
need to pay attention to.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
That last part you mentioned is exactly correct.
The question is who gets thecredit?
Does the Lord get the credit orall the attention falling on
the man up at the platform?
Many of these people I see, thepeople that gets glorified is
the person on the sign.
It's the person up at the frontof the church building or in
front of the service.
The people that get the gloryare the ones that are getting
(08:28):
the attention and that meansthat we need to be careful.
Just because somebody's doing amiracle doesn't mean they are a
true prophet.
They could be false prophetsand this passage says that, that
they can be lying wonders andfalse miracles Just because
there's miracles and there'speople running around the
countryside claiming to domiracles.
(08:49):
Some of them are fake, some ofthem could be legit, but this
says that false prophets andfalse Christ will show signs and
wonders.
So just because they'respeaking religious language and
doing signs and wonders doesn'tmean they're true prophets.
They could be false prophets.
(09:09):
Verse 22 also implies that it'simpossible to deceive the elect
, because that's what it impliesthere to deceive, if possible,
even the elect.
It implies that you can't.
Next thing, we have a majorswitch, or at least a major
(09:31):
indication of a time frame here,starting in verse 24 and 25.
Steve, what does it say?
These things will happen afterwhat?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
After that tribulation, things will happen
after what?
After that tribulation?
That means that there is goingto be a period of tribulation
that's going to be specific.
It's not going to be anextended persecution or a time
of tribulation that's going tolast centuries.
It's going to be a specifictribulation.
That's what Jesus is sayingAfter that tribulation.
(10:00):
The one that he said before isthat the sun's going to be
darkened, the moon will not giveits light, and et cetera.
In this, passage.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
It's giving a rather clear sequence.
If we look at verse 24, afterthat tribulation, verse 26, then
they will see the Son of man,verse 27, then he will send
forth the angels to gather theelect.
Very clearly, jesus is giving asequence and it starts with
(10:31):
after the tribulation.
Therefore, we can tell somethings about when things are
going to happen, at least asequence not the year, but the
sequence, if we just followwhat's clearly written down here
.
The sequence does not fit afulfillment in the first century
, as held by many preterists,amillennialists and
(10:53):
postmillennialists that claimthat many of these things were
fulfilled in Jerusalem, andspecifically they talk about 70
AD, when the Romans came anddestroyed Jerusalem.
First of all, the sequence hereagain starts out after the
tribulation, the Son of man willcome and the angels will gather
(11:15):
the elect from the four winds.
First of all, when it says theangels are gathering the elect
from the four winds.
First of all, when it says theangels are gathering the elect
from the four winds, that didn'tchange in 70 AD.
If we say it's the saved peoplebeing gathered by the angels,
which is what the preterists areclaiming, well, that was
happening prior to 70 AD, atleast from the day of Pentecost
(11:38):
and really all of history,people were saved by grace,
through faith, so God's chosenone were being brought into
fellowship with him.
That didn't change in 70 AD.
It didn't start after 70 AD.
Also, the Son of man was seen.
Was Jesus.
He was seen prior to 70 AD.
(11:58):
It didn't change, some of thesepeople claim.
Well, once Jerusalem wasdestroyed, then it was the
leaders of Jerusalem that sawJesus now as being oh, we were
wrong all along.
We're seeing Jesus as theMessiah now.
That didn't change.
That didn't happen.
Basically, there was no massconversion of Jewish leadership
in 70 AD.
(12:19):
They were just as lost as theywere prior to that.
None of these things happenedin 70 AD.
Even figuratively, coming inthe clouds the Son of man coming
in the clouds does not mean, assome said, coming into heaven.
That's been one interpretationthat we saw.
It means Jesus returning, thatwe saw.
(12:39):
It means Jesus returning Stevesix times in this chapter alone.
Mark, chapter 13, mentionsJesus return or his coming six
times.
Well, it can't be talking abouthis first coming, because he
was at the end of his ministrywhen he's giving this message
and he was already there at thetime and by the time 70 AD
(13:01):
happened, the church had been inexistence for many decades.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
We have to have something else, simply because
the sequence of history that'sclearly given after the
tribulation of those days justdoes not fit the first century
and, to add what you were justtalking about, glenn, that
tribulation that's mentionedthere in that verse harkens back
to verse 19 that says For thosedays will be a time of
(13:28):
tribulation such as has notoccurred since the beginning of
the creation which God createduntil now and never will.
We spoke a little bit about thisin our last session when we
went through this.
But there have been other timesof persecution of the Jewish
people throughout history.
(13:49):
But there have been other timesthat have been worse than 70 AD
.
Especially mid-20th century wasthe greatest one, which
actually led to them becoming anation and being reconstituted
as a nation itself.
That tribulation that hementions there in verse 27 is
hearkening back to the one thathe mentioned in 19, and it goes
(14:11):
right along with everything thatyou said.
Nothing really changed after 70AD.
In fact there were some timesthat were a little bit worse,
but it's nothing that 70 ADwasn't a pinnacle of persecution
or tribulation for the Jewishpeople.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Then we must deal with.
What do these apocalypticphrases actually mean?
In verses 24 and 25, itmentions the sun was darkened,
the moon did not give light, thestars falling from heaven, the
heavens will be shaken, son ofman coming in the clouds.
What does this descriptivelanguage really mean?
(14:51):
Well, he's in this passage.
When he mentions those things,he's directly quoting the Old
Testament.
He is directly quoting Isaiah13.10.
In Isaiah 13, god is judging thenations plural, not just Israel
.
If we go back and we look atthe quotation from Isaiah 13.10,
(15:13):
the next two or three or fourverses immediately after that
deal with God judging the wholeworld.
Isaiah 13.11,.
The exact next verse says ThusI will punish the world for its
evil.
The next verse, 13.12,.
I will make mortal man scarcerthan pure gold.
(15:36):
Isaiah 13.14, quote they willeach turn to his own people and
each one flee to his own land.
The context of what Jesus isquoting here is in God judging
all the nations of the earth,all the nations.
Again, they will each flee tohis own land.
(15:56):
This was a God pouring out hiswrath on the whole world.
Stars falling from heaven is aquote from Isaiah chapter 34,
which also talks about thevengeance of God the day of
vengeance.
In Isaiah 34, the versesimmediately prior to the one
(16:17):
about the host of heaven talkabout the Lord being against all
the nations.
The context of each of thesequotes is about God judging the
entire world, not just Israel.
Therefore, we cannot say thatthe apocalyptic language in Mark
13, verses 24 to 26, is onlytalking about judging Israel in
(16:40):
the first century.
It just doesn't fit.
The people listening to himwould know these passages in
Isaiah quite clearly and when hequotes that they would know oh,
that's that time when God'sgoing to judge the whole world.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
There's a term that Jeremiah uses about this
tribulation that's going to comeon Israel.
He quotes it as saying the timeof Jacob's trouble and of
course, jacob is a synonym forthe nation of Israel.
I think people have taken thatand some other things about the
tribulation Glenn throughout thecenturies and they have applied
(17:16):
that, this tribulation Glennthroughout the centuries and
they have applied that thistribulation period, the
seven-year period, andespecially the last three and a
half years.
Because, again before in ourlast session, jesus says when
you see the abomination ofdesolation spoken of in Daniel,
well, in Daniel, that's at themidpoint of this 70th week of
Daniel, this week of tribulation, these seven years, that they
(17:41):
feel that this tribulation isonly specific to Israel.
But it's not.
You just got through sayingthat in Isaiah that talks about
all of the nations being judged,and this time period is all of
the nations coming againstIsrael.
They are persecuting.
(18:02):
The tribulation of Israel isfrom all the other nations that
are being led by a satanicperson.
God actually comes to saveIsrael, just like he did back in
the time of Judges I'vementioned before.
I think that this tribulationperiod, the time of Judges, was
(18:24):
a shadow of this.
What happened.
They were oppressed until theygot to a point that they called
out for God to save them.
He sent a judge that defeatedthe oppressors and then they had
a time of peace.
I think that was the shadow ofthis.
They're going to be sooppressed in this tribulation
period from the other nations.
They're going to call out toGod for deliverance and Jesus is
(18:49):
going to come and they're goingto look and see Jesus and
notice him and mourn, asZacharias says, on the one whom
they had pierced, and then theywill finally recognize that
Jesus was the Messiah.
We have this collection of theelect, from the angels, from all
of it.
You have so eloquentlydescribed that 70 AD just
(19:10):
doesn't fit this time period ofwhat is being discussed here and
said and explained by Jesusduring these verses.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
The sequence therefore, if we just read Mark
13, is quite clear.
Mark 13, 14 begins talkingabout the abomination of
desolation, as mentioned byDaniel, that is, in the middle
of the Great Tribulation period.
Mark 13, 24 begins talkingabout after the Tribulation
that's what it says wheneveryone are going to see Jesus
(19:42):
return on the clouds with greatglory.
That's the theme and thesequence.
That's just clearly presentedhere.
If we just go back and look atthe quotes in Isaiah and the
context for that and we don'ttry to read New Testament
systematic theology back intothe Old Testament context, then
(20:02):
all the pieces just kind of fallout very clearly.
Verse 26, question Steve whatdoes that verse say about the
return of Jesus?
What will it be like when hecomes back?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
It says that he'll be coming on the clouds, but he'll
be coming with great power andgreat glory.
It's going to be something thatI think everybody's going to
see.
It's not going to be somethingthat's going to be limited to
just the Jerusalem area.
There's going to be acataclysmic event in his return.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
The way we know.
That is the phrase there comingin the clouds, the Son of man
coming.
Well, he was already there onMount of Olives when he said
that He'd already come the firsttime.
But coming in the clouds is aphrase that's used several times
in the Bible Daniel 7.13,revelation 1.7, mark 8-38,.
Already in this exact book he'stalking about him coming in his
(20:58):
glory.
The cloud is the glory of God.
That goes all the way back towandering in the wilderness and
in the tabernacle and in thetemple.
We had talked about thatseveral times.
The cloud is the Shekinah gloryof God that is ever-present
around the Lord.
He's coming in his glory.
That's the key here.
(21:19):
The second coming will be inhis glory.
The first coming was not in hisglory.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Now, Glenn, I think that you recently saw a teacher
that was trying to attributethis coming into the clouds as
Jesus coming into the throneroom as he ascended, but that
just doesn't make sense does it?
Speaker 1 (21:39):
No, it doesn't.
We research these things,trying to get different
perspectives, make sure wedidn't miss something.
Some people again.
If you've already decided thatmany of these things are
fulfilled in the first century,well then, what do you do?
Because it clearly says afterthe tribulation, then Jesus is
coming in the clouds?
Well, some, what do you do?
Because it clearly says afterthe tribulation, then Jesus is
coming in the clouds?
Well, some of them try.
Well, maybe he means cominginto heaven.
(22:01):
It's just a strange teachingthat takes going into heaven and
turn it into coming.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
It's also odd that how can Jesus ascending and
going away from the earth be thesame thing as him coming, as it
says here, coming back?
Of course, the angel that wasstanding there with the ones
that were looking up said he'sgoing to be returning the same
way that he left, so that justdoesn't make sense to me either.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Then we have in verse 27, this phrase here where he
says he will send forth theangels, gather together his
elect from the four winds, fromthe farthest end of earth and
the farthest end of heaven.
What do we do with that?
Well, the elect there people'smind automatically go to
passages in the New Testamentepistles that talk about the
(22:49):
elect, but the elect are merelythe chosen.
If we take this again, thislanguage, we have to look at
what it says.
It's not really complicated.
There's several clues here inthis that tell us where this is
from.
First of all, he says veryclearly here in verse 27, the
gathering includes gatheringfrom not just the earth but from
(23:12):
heaven.
He's gathering the elect fromthe earth and from heaven.
And we also know this gatheringbegins after the tribulation,
verse 24.
If we say, does this fit NewTestament evangelism, where
people will go out and lostsinners will hear the gospel and
repent and become a chosen one,so to speak?
(23:33):
Well, it really just doesn'tfit One, because angels are
never said to go out and gatherlost people and gather the elect
during the church age.
That's never spoken of.
Mark 8.38 Jesus says the Son ofman will come in glory and with
angels with him.
Then, most importantly, in thecontext again, he just got
(23:55):
through quoting we told you theOld Testament.
This is yet another quote fromthe Old Testament.
Several times in the OldTestament speaks of gathering
Israel back to the land ofIsrael.
For example, deuteronomy 30,verses 3 through 6,.
If any of Israel are scatteredto the farthest parts under
(24:17):
heaven, god will gather themback to the land.
Ezekiel 36, verse 24,.
Israel disobeyed and God judgedthem by scattering them amongst
the nations.
In that verse, ezekiel 36, 24,god is going to gather them back
from where he had scatteredthem and bring them back to the
(24:37):
land.
Isaiah 11, 12,.
God will gather the Jews fromthe four corners of the earth.
Isaiah 31, 8,.
God will gather Israel from theends of the earth.
Isaiah 43, 5 and following.
God will gather Israel from alldirections.
God will gather Israel from alldirections.
We had Jewish people.
Steve in a Jewish context whenhe says that their people are
(25:00):
going to be gathered from theearth and heaven what are they
going to be thinking of?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
They're going to be thinking of Jesus Christ
whenever they're being gathered.
As you've mentioned severaltimes, in this, the sequence
begins with verse 24, where itsays after this tribulation
period.
Here in this, the sequencebegins with verse 24, where it
says after this tribulationperiod.
Here, in 27, we have thecontext that it's during this
tribulation period are all ofthese elect, which simply means
(25:29):
chosen.
Now, again, the nation ofIsrael were chosen.
People were chosen for hispurpose.
This is a thoroughly Jewish text, as you just got through
talking about, and I believethat this is talking about those
Jewish people, the nation ofJewish people, that are left
alive at the end of thistribulation period.
(25:52):
I think it's okay if we want toadd there some Gentile
believers that have also come tofaith during that tribulation
period.
I think it's okay if we want toadd there some Gentile
believers that have also come tofaith during that tribulation
period.
But it leads to that this isthe time frame that it's talking
about, of the gathering fromthose seven years of tribulation
.
You have also an inference fromheaven this is, I think,
possibly the Old Testamentsaints, the Jewish ones, that
(26:15):
he's also gathering.
This is all prior to going intothe restored kingdom, which is
the next phase after thetribulation.
As you've mentioned, and wehave throughout this session,
verse 24 sets the stage as towhen these events are happening
and who it's happening to.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
If we just follow the language here in the text in
Mark 13, all the pieces fallinto place.
If we just hold it to be whatit says, which is, at the end of
the Great Tribulation period,god is going to gather the
saints from the four winds andfrom heaven at the end of the
Great Tribulation period, it allfits very perfectly and matches
(26:57):
with the Old Testament there.
If we, on the other hand, holdthat the tribulation spoken of
as the preterist dude is theRoman attack on Jerusalem in 70
AD, then we have big problems,simply because nothing really
changed in salvation or Jesus'srole or how people come into the
(27:21):
kingdom.
None of that changed before andafter 70 AD.
In 75 AD was no different inhow people were saved or Jesus's
role than in 65 AD.
There was no mass conversion ofJewish people.
There was no gathering ofsaints after 70 AD.
That didn't happen prior to 70AD, and so therefore, the only
(27:44):
place that really fits is justwhat it says, which is the
abomination of desolationhappens, according to Daniel.
Then, at the end of that, thosethat endure will be saved and
Jesus is going to return in allhis glory.
The angels are going to gatherthe saints from the earth and
heaven at the end of the greattribulation period.
(28:06):
Steve, what a glorious daythat's going to be.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
That is going to be a glorious day and I will be
looking forward to it.
I think you agree with me.
We'll be in heaven watchingthat, being prepared to come
back with Jesus whenever hecomes in the clouds with him.
But it's going to be a gloriousday.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Well, tune in next time.
We've got even more parts ofthe Olivet Discourse.
It's so rich and there's somuch here that there's more
glorious things, and I trustthat you'll be back next time
and bring your life jacket,because it's going to be just as
deep.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Thank you so much for watching and listening.
May God bless you.
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