June 27, 2024 • 28 mins
With June marking National Safety Awareness Month, we are honored to have the Director of Risk Resources at Acrisure, Paul Bragenzer, share his invaluable insights on balancing safety and productivity. We dive deep into the cultural shift needed to make safety more than just a compliance issue. Hear how understanding the "why" behind safety practices and fostering meaningful relationships can lead to a safer work environment. We also highlight the role of purpose and values in creating a successful safety culture, drawing lessons from companies like Alcoa Aluminum. This episode is packed with real-life examples and expert advice, making it essential listening for anyone passionate about modern workplace safety.
Ever wondered how we evolved from the perilous work environments of the 1930s to today's stringent safety standards? In our latest episode, we explore this evolution through the captivating lens of Mike Rowe's experiences on "Dirty Jobs." Rowe provocatively argues that putting safety first can sometimes lead to dangerous complacency, emphasizing instead the power of personal responsibility. Listen as we recount his gripping story aboard a crab boat in the Bering Sea and discuss how he believes safety should be prioritized.
Contact Paul at PBragenzer@Acrisure.com
Watch the Mike Rowe video referenced: https://youtu.be/Km8XxRCuCho
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
perspective.
Perspective is spelled p e r sp e c t I v e.
Perspective the 30 000 footview perspective put on someone
else's shoes.
Perspective can also refer tothe state of existing in space
(00:20):
or one's view of the worldperspective rea audio space or
one's view of the worldPerspective REA Audio.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Reemployability.
Have you ever seen that picturefrom the 1930s of men eating
lunch on a steel beam high aboveNew York City?
The photo's called, fittinglyenough, Lunch Atop a Skyscraper,
and the photographer is unknown.
It was a publicity photo.
11 guys didn't normally eatlunch all in a row, dangling 850
feet off the ground, but whatthey did do was walk, lift,
drill and hammer that high andhigher off the ground, with no
(00:58):
safety harness nets or anythingwe would consider standard today
.
In fact, prior to the creationof OSHA in the early 1970s,
there was little done to createsafe environments for workers.
Now, fast forward to 2024.
Some feel that we've become sosafety conscious that it impedes
our ability to get work done.
The pendulum swings both ways.
(01:20):
I found a video on YouTube fromMike Rowe, the guy from Dirty
Jobs.
He's been in the middle of someof the most dangerous work
environments on the planet andthis is his take.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
You know what that guy knows?
Well, actually he knows a greatdeal, but what he really knows
is the importance of safety.
You look around a place likethis.
You see it everywhere.
Look at the sign up there as ifthere could be any doubt Safety
first, always, always, always,over and over and over.
But you want to hear the dirtytruth.
Safety is not really ever first.
(01:53):
Safety generally, as best I canfigure, is third.
The reason I believe safetyshould be third is that it's so
important you can't really putit at number one, because if you
put it at number one and say itover and over and over again,
you start to get complacent.
And this is what's happened tome over the last four or five
(02:14):
years.
I've broken fingers, fracturedtoes and cracked ribs and fused
my own contact lenses to my eyes.
Once and every single time I'vehurt myself.
It's always been in thatfraction of a moment where I
take my eye off the ball and Istart to think that maybe
somebody, somewhere, cares moreabout my well-being than me.
It is always a mistake to letthat happen, and the more
(02:38):
banners you see reminding you ofhow important safety is for me
anyway, the more complacent Ibecome.
So on the Dirty Jobs crew, westarted to say safety.
Third, just to remind you thatultimately it was on you, I'll
tell you a story About threeyears ago, maybe four, I was on
a crab boat called the Bountiful, up in the Bering Sea fishing
(03:00):
for king crabs with thoselunatics up there right, and we
were about 200 miles off thecoast of Russia.
The wind was blown about 40.
The seas were easily 35 feetand the crew was out there
working and I was out there withthem, you know, trying not to
get killed, and I went up on astack of crab pots that were
stacked on the back of the boatand I was helping unlash them
(03:20):
and I was scared less.
I mean very, very frightening,and eventually I just couldn't
take it anymore.
I scrambled down off the potsdown to the deck and I went up
to the wheelhouse and I went inand the captain is hunched over
the wheel.
He's doing his thing and thegreen water's coming over the
bow and it's just soridiculously hazardous.
I looked at him and I said Cap,osha.
(03:41):
And he looks at me and saysOSHA, ocean.
And we had a little laugh andI'm like no, seriously, I've
been all over your boat.
I don't see any signs aboutsafety.
I don't see any special guardsor rails, or I mean, what's
going on here?
And he said son, I'm thecaptain of a crab boat.
My job is not to get you homealive, my job is to get you home
(04:05):
rich.
You want to come home alive,that's on you.
I got it In that moment I gotit.
Nobody was looking out for meother than me.
I spent every second on thatboat and grabbing on to every
single thing I could and notletting go.
I put safety first, second,third, fourth, all the way down
(04:26):
the list.
I never took my eye off it.
So it's not that we don't thinksafety is the most important
thing.
It's just that when you keepsaying it's first, you got to
wonder where everything elsefalls into place.
Don't be that guy, be careful.
Safety third, always in the topfive anyway.
(04:46):
That's the dirty truth.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
So where's the middle ground?
June is National SafetyAwareness Month and we're super
fortunate to have PaulBragginser from AcroShare on the
podcast to talk about how toincorporate a safe workplace.
Have people actually not wantto cut corners and get the work
done?
Speaker 1 (05:04):
National Safety Month is an initiative created and
run by the National SafetyCouncil.
The council is a nonprofitagency with a congressional
charter but is not administeredby the United States government.
June is National Safety Monthand is designed to raise
awareness of health and safetyrisks.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Paul Bragginser is the director of risk resources
at Accresure, and Paul and Ihave been talking back and forth
for a little bit over a yearnow.
Paul Bragginser is the Directorof Risk Resources at Accresure,
and Paul and I have beentalking back and forth for a
little bit over a year now.
I've been fortunate enough tobe a part of some of the things
that Accresure is doing andreally think that the resources
that they provided and Paul'sexpertise is really going to
help us kind of understand somethings that we're going to talk
(05:40):
about in the next few minutes aswe kind of, I guess, celebrate
National Safety Awareness Monthin June.
So, paul, thanks for being onREA Audio and I appreciate you
taking some time.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
Oh, it's my pleasure, and thank you so much for the
invitation to speak with you.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Of course.
So, paul Accresure, tell mewhat do you do as Director of
Risk Resources at Accresure,what are the risk resources
available and what do you guysdo?
Speaker 4 (06:06):
What we do is assist clients of Accresure to improve
their safety programming, theirrisk resource programming, so
that, as an insurance broker,our goal is to help our clients
be good risks to insurancecarriers.
So our goal is to help them tounderstand the principles of
(06:29):
running a company in a safemanner so that they are not
relying on insurance to coverincidences that then results in
them having to pay more fortheir insurance and all the
other negative things that goalong with that.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
So helping companies be safer and all the other
negative things that go alongwith that, so helping companies
be safer and so I played thatvideo or the audio from the
video from Mike Rowe prior toour conversation and I know
you've looked at it and wetalked a little bit about it and
I think Mike's main idea ofsaying safety third was to kind
of just raise some eyebrowsright, because it's so
(07:03):
unconventional to hear that andhe tells some good stories in
there.
What was your take on thatvideo and how do you think it
relates to some of the thingsthat you all are doing at
Accrasure?
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Yeah, that video was very interesting.
The way that Mike tells hisstory, makes his point, was a
different approach than what youwould normally see, um, but I
think, in the end, what heultimately was trying to
communicate was that safety isnot about, uh, delegation or
(07:37):
designation, it's not aboutcompliance, it's not about
following rules, uh, becausethat specific point where he
talked about his conversationwith the ship's captain steered
in that direction that Mike wasresponsible for Mike's safety.
And so, as far as how that allrelates with what Acquisher is
(08:01):
doing, that principle of safetybeing more of a cultural issue
than a compliance issue isexactly what we strive to do.
I have seen this in more than40 years of helping companies
avoid injuries and recover fromthe outcomes of injuries.
(08:21):
For sure, outcomes of injuries,for sure.
Compliance-based programs willonly get you so far, and now a
compliance-based program isstrictly an organization that
relies on their rule book.
We've got all our safety rulesand if you don't participate or
follow these safety rules, thenthere's punishment.
(08:49):
And what I have seen personallyand many of our other
consultants have seen, is thatthe added rules without
relationship equals rebellion,and so people, if they view your
risk resource program and Ithink this is what Mike was
trying to say as a list of rules.
We're going to be so safetyminded that we've got all these
rules and we're going to tellyou how to do your job, to work
safely.
That works as long as theperson thinks that they're going
(09:14):
to get caught.
But the minute they think thatthey can do something they think
is smarter, a shortcut, faster,or the emphasis is less just
get the job done, then they'regoing to take that shortcut,
knowing what they're supposed todo.
(09:35):
But that right.
There is the scenario where myexperience over the last 40 some
years is that the worstinjuries that I've ever come
across in the occupationalsetting almost always occur in a
company that people know whatthey're supposed to do but the
person chose to do somethingdifferent for various reasons.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
You know it's funny.
He showed that picture of thesign safety first and I've seen
you know signs in when I go getmy car fixed in garages that say
it's been this many days sincewe've had a work related injury
and so there's always thosereminders of safety.
And we were kind of talkingabout this prior to.
Recording was like you can haveall the rules and you know what
(10:23):
you have to do or what you'resupposed to do.
Tell me about the understanding, the why behind it.
Why is it important for peopleto understand why we don't want
to have a work related injury inX number of days or why we want
to make safety the number onepriority?
What's the importance of thewhy?
Speaker 4 (10:41):
The importance of the why is looking at again.
What I tell people many timesis save us two words in the
English language, or what if?
Save us two words in theEnglish language or what if?
Because when we're doingsomething we all are told, we
all have rules that we aresupposed to be living our life
by.
For example, anybody who drivesa car knows that speed limits
(11:05):
are posted and we're supposed todrive at those speed limits.
How many of us do Well, when wethink we're going to get caught
if there's a police officer?
on the side of the road we'redriving a speed limit, but the
minute that we believe thatwe're in an area where we're not
going to get caught, we mightchoose to go faster than the
(11:26):
speed limit for personal reasons.
So organizations that havesafety rules again, rules
without relationship equalsrebellion People will follow
those rules, but if they don'tknow why that rule exists, then
it's just something that's intheir way to get the job done.
(11:48):
So every single time I've everinvestigated a very serious
injury or fatality, um, everysingle time the person uh, if
they were still alive, wasadmitting, would admit, say you
know what?
I?
I knew I wasn't supposed to dothat, yeah, but I chose to do it
(12:09):
because I was in a hurry, oryou know, pick your reason.
Whereas then the things thatthey talk about after the
incident has occurred is theconsequences of that injury.
What's it going to mean?
And you know, you can get asgruesome as you want with the
(12:33):
people that have, you know,amputated limbs, significant
spinal injuries, back injuries,injuries requiring shoulder
surgery, brain injuries, all ofthe above.
There's a consequence that manypeople don't stop and ask
themselves am I willing to paythis price by taking this
shortcut?
What if this doesn't go right,and the thing about all the
(12:56):
safety rules let's call themOSHA laws is that almost all of
them came into being becausesomebody or a pattern of people
got hurt.
Right, they're not just therefor no reason In his book.
Start With why Simon Sinektalks about.
You will only pursue somethingwith passion if you know why
(13:18):
you're doing it and you know avery good story on this.
One Worked with an organizationmany years ago, prior to
initiating with this client.
Three years before I startedworking with them, they had one
of their employees get killed onthe job, and so when I got
(13:39):
there and would go out to thefield to talk with the workers
that are on a project, you know,typical question would be hey,
you know what are you guysworking on?
And they'd tell me what theywere doing and I'd say oh, what
hazards do you see here todaythat you're concerned about?
And a typical response was youknow, well, it was rather
colorful many times withmetaphors, but they would say
(13:59):
we're not a safe company, so wedon't pay attention to that
safety stuff.
And when I would ask them well,okay, well, what do you mean?
Why do you say that?
Well, if we were a safe companyjust for a generic name, bob
wouldn't have died.
This was a smaller company.
Everybody knew who Bob was, andso they would tell me stories
(14:23):
about yeah, I was there the dayBob died.
I knew Bob.
My wife still knows Bob.
Bob's a widow.
One guy actually told me I'mthe one that found Bob.
You know, one guy actually toldme I'm the one that found Bob.
And so what it showed was thatthis company was just swimming
in regret.
These people were swimming inregrets and so safety had no
(14:48):
meaning to them, even thoughthey had a very complete safety
rulebook, safety manual.
But their safety record wasterrible even after Bob died,
because the point was drivenhome that we're not a safe
company because if we were, bobwouldn't have died.
So we worked with them and cameup with something that
everybody agreed.
This was something that theyagreed that this is us a safety
purpose statement that saidbeing safe on purpose equals no
(15:13):
regrets.
And then everybody in thecompany agreed that that was
very authentic for them, becausethey admitted that they had
deep regrets that their friendhad died, and so that company
following now with a new purpose, same rules in place, they were
able to.
Well, the whole time that wewere working with them two and a
(15:36):
half three years.
They had no lost time injuriesin that whole period of time and
the injury rate plummetedbecause people were now doing
things on a purpose rather thanout of compliance.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
And it's interesting that you tell the story, that
story, because I, you know, Iwas thinking as as you were
talking.
So, like I do, handyman stuffaround the house, right.
And I just remodeled my bathroomand I installed new switches
and I knew I should turn off theelectrical before I install the
switches, right, but you knowit's going to save me some time,
(16:15):
right?
So more times than once I havehit two wires together and
created a spark and gone oh, Ishouldn't have done that, maybe
I'll go turn the breaker off.
So then I go turn the breakeroff.
Fortunately I didn't incur anyserious injury from that, right.
My dad, when I was a little kidwe lived up North and he was
(16:36):
snowblowing the driveway andthat real heavy snow that gets
clogged up in the in thesnowblower had clogged up the
chute and he turned thesnowblower off and took his hand
and pushed it, pushed the snowdown into the shoot and the
auger was still cycling through,it had not stopped and he
(16:59):
nipped off the tips of hisfingers.
He never did that again, right,and I never hooked up a plug
after I got those sparks, beforeI shut things off.
It seems like sometimes peopleactually you can't just tell
them the consequence.
They have to experience somekind of consequence before they
change their behavior.
(17:20):
And in that story you just told, it's interesting to me that
having Bob die wasn't enough tomake people change their
behaviors.
There was more to it than that.
Is that something that you seewhen you work with companies,
that that it's not just theexperience that they have, but
it's gotta be a kind of a commonagreement to what has to be
(17:43):
done?
I mean, that's almost like apsychology type of stuff that
you're doing there.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Yeah yeah, kind of, I guess it is.
You know, a lot of theseconcepts really came together.
There was a book I don'tremember the authors right now,
but it was called the PurposeRevolution and in there they
talked about oh even in JimCollins' Good to Great, all of
the companies that just reallyexceed in anything always are
operating on an identified,agreed purpose.
(18:10):
There's a value there.
They're saying this isimportant.
So one of the things that we dowith our clients is help them
identify a safety purposestatement.
Let's find out.
Okay, guys, we can give you allthe templates you want and
(18:31):
follow all the rules, but ifrules were enough to keep your
people injured, then nobody witha rule book would ever have any
injuries, and that's just notthe case.
So, again, I think that's whatMike was talking about in that
video was that it's?
It's a bigger.
It's bigger than just saying,okay, we're going to focus on
safety, um, and what thattypically means is we're going
(18:54):
to make sure we have all theserules and we're going to enforce
these rules, whereas if youread any of the stories of
companies that have drasticallysucceeded, using safety as a
leader like I think it was AlcoaAluminum, that whole company
the gentleman said we're goingto be the best aluminum company
in the world because we'll bethe safest.
(19:15):
And they laughed at him.
But that's exactly whathappened.
But it wasn't because they werefollowing the rules.
It's because people said youknow what?
This is a purpose and we'regoing to abide by that purpose
and the rules will take care ofthemselves.
And we're going to abide bythat purpose and the rules will
(19:38):
take care of themselves.
Rules will never drive aculture, but cultures will
improve rule compliance, I guess, if you want to say it that way
.
So that's a key, key componentthat we work with and really
what we've seen is thatcompanies that don't do that you
(20:03):
can, you can get.
You can become safer.
If you just don't know whatyou're supposed to do and all,
and then you apply some guidancewith safety rules, yeah, you'll
become somewhat safer.
But if what you're after isthat world-class safety result
where people are staying safe onpurpose, that's not going to
come from a rule book.
(20:23):
That's going to come from.
This is who we are.
This isn't what we do.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
And culture change is never easy.
It's always an uphill battleand you know many companies I've
been at where culture changewas part of.
You know the process.
That, where culture change waspart of, you know the process.
You know I've been through fromthe beginning to the end, right
, and and seeing that you knowif people don't want to get on
the bus, maybe they don't needto be on this bus, right?
(20:51):
I mean, sometimes that's whatit takes.
So if I'm a safety professionallistening to this right now and
I understand that I'm at aplace where we are following a
rule book and that culture issomething that needs to be
changed, what are some of thethings that I can do to at least
start that process, to getpeople to understand that it's
(21:12):
not just a rule book, that it'sa culture shift that needs to
happen?
Speaker 4 (21:17):
There's many things that an organization can do.
We spend a lot of timeanalyzing and evaluating a
company and their culture andall the components of their risk
control program to help themidentify where their greatest
opportunities for improvementare.
But some of the things is justrecognize you're not going to do
(21:37):
it alone.
You will not create a culturewithin an organization by
yourself.
Again, remember rules withoutrelationship equals rebellion.
So it's all it is going to be.
All about relationships andpeople need to see, well, the
risk control person as aresource.
(22:02):
The minute that and I knew thisalmost instinctively was that if
all I am is the safety police,I failed.
Because as soon as I'm notthere, just like driving down
the highway, as soon as if theperson thinks that you know,
sees a police and the medianpoint in their direction, they
(22:22):
know that they might get aticket.
Or if they're speeding, theywill get a ticket.
But that means then, if thatsame mentality is on my job site
, that when I show up,everyone's acting safe and as
soon as I leave, they go back todoing what you're.
You're just asked.
It's going to be a disaster yeahuh, and you'll get unintended
(22:47):
and very unfortunate outcomes.
So one thing is just recognizethat it is a relationship, uh,
and you can't do it alone.
Uh, this is where I'm a hugeproponent of safety committees.
You've got to get peopleinvolved in change, otherwise
it's again just trying to push acar up a hill by yourself.
(23:09):
It's just not going to happen.
So, incorporating that wholeconcept of a safety committee
where it is a true committee andwe teach people how to have
successful safety committeesCause I've seen some that are
nothing more than a frustration,and but there's reasons for
that but effective committeeswill spread a culture, help
(23:33):
spread a culture over time.
Realize it's not going tohappen overnight, but you really
do have to get down to the nutsand bolts of it is.
Why is this important?
Why do we care?
A company that we were workingwith was really struggling with
(23:53):
their safety program and theycouldn't understand why all
these rules and things that theywere trying to engage in their
workers with weren't working.
And so we talked about the ideaof a purpose statement, and
they happened to be in a very acompany that stressed family and
had a very family orientedworkforce, and so the minute
(24:18):
they tied those two together,that you know we work safe, so
that you go home to your familyat night and you can provide.
As soon as people put thatconnection together in their
head, it was like instant change, because they didn't see it as
well.
I'm only following this rulebecause my boss is telling me
(24:39):
and then I'm going to take thisshortcut so I can get more
production.
They're not thinking oh wait aminute, what happens if this
doesn't go right, if I break myleg or whatever, and I can't
provide for my family?
I don't like that outcome.
Therefore, I will make adifferent choice.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
It sounds like, and it's very similar to what we
tell insurance adjusters when wetalk about the re-employability
program.
And you got to look at theperson on that spreadsheet, not
just as a number on aspreadsheet, but as a human
being.
And if you can look at thesafety perspective not just that
we need to save money on ourworkers' comp claims, but more
(25:17):
like listen, I really want myhuman beings that work for me to
get home to their family and ifyou can instill that culture
into people, into a company,it's going to make a world of
difference.
And so it's about humanizingwhat it is that you're doing or
what we're doing on a dailybasis, and it makes such a
difference it sounds likeAbsolutely.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
We've all been a part of or seen.
You know those organizationsthat just focus on the
compliance.
You know, again, like Mike Rowesaid, safety is number one and
if you're not safe, boy, there'sgoing to be hell to pay.
It just doesn't work, becausepeople, ultimately you could be
(26:06):
saying that on one hand, andyour unintended message that
you're telling to the group isyou're saying safety's first,
but really production's first,and all you care about is so
many you know units I get outthe door today.
Therefore, you know I'm goingto do it.
What is that that's saying?
I can only hear what I see.
So if I see you doing somethingdifferent than what you're
(26:30):
telling me, I'm going to go withwhat I see.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Yeah, I mean.
That's true with raising kids,that's true with being in the
safety world, it's true withrunning a business.
Right, it's actions speaklouder than words, right?
So make your actions count,paul.
If people want more informationon what you do or what
Acquishire does, what's the bestway for them to get ahold is?
Speaker 4 (26:55):
email, and my email is P-B-R-A-G-E-N-Z-E-R at
Acrisure A-C-R-I-S-U-R-Ecom.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Well, paul, I'll make sure to put your email address
in the show notes so people canjust click on it to reach out to
you if they have questions orwant to investigate.
Uh, you know working withacrasure and I just want to say
thank you.
Uh, I always learn a lot when Ido these podcasts and I never
quite know, when we're jumpinginto something we've never done
a podcast on before, um, howit's going to turn out, um.
(27:36):
But I think, you know, havingsuch knowledgeable guests such
as yourself on really kind ofopens up the thought process for
people and I really, reallyappreciate your time.
I love the fact that we're allbringing it back to treating
humans like human beings and, aswe make that number one,
there's so many good things thatcan happen.
So I do appreciate your time,paul.
(27:58):
Thank you so much so.
Speaker 4 (27:59):
I do appreciate your time, Paul.
Thank you so much.
Oh, thank you, Todd, and rightback at you, you made it seem
you didn't make it seem like aninterview.
You asked great questions thatreally keep the thought process
moving.
So thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Thanks, paul.
Safety is usually defined asthe state of being safe, freedom
from the occurrence or risk ofinjury, danger or loss.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Thanks for listening to REA Audio.
Please make sure to follow uson Spotify or Apple Podcasts or
Stitcher or wherever you getyour podcasts.
We appreciate you.
Have a great rest of your week.
We'll see you next time.
perspective.
Perspective is spelled p e r sp e c t I v e.
Perspective the 30 000 footview perspective put on someone
else's shoes.
Perspective can also refer tothe state of existing in space
(00:20):
or one's view of the worldperspective rea audio space or
one's view of the worldPerspective REA Audio.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Reemployability.
Have you ever seen that picturefrom the 1930s of men eating
lunch on a steel beam high aboveNew York City?
The photo's called, fittinglyenough, Lunch Atop a Skyscraper,
and the photographer is unknown.
It was a publicity photo.
11 guys didn't normally eatlunch all in a row, dangling 850
feet off the ground, but whatthey did do was walk, lift,
drill and hammer that high andhigher off the ground, with no
(00:58):
safety harness nets or anythingwe would consider standard today
.
In fact, prior to the creationof OSHA in the early 1970s,
there was little done to createsafe environments for workers.
Now, fast forward to 2024.
Some feel that we've become sosafety conscious that it impedes
our ability to get work done.
The pendulum swings both ways.
(01:20):
I found a video on YouTube fromMike Rowe, the guy from Dirty
Jobs.
He's been in the middle of someof the most dangerous work
environments on the planet andthis is his take.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
You know what that guy knows?
Well, actually he knows a greatdeal, but what he really knows
is the importance of safety.
You look around a place likethis.
You see it everywhere.
Look at the sign up there as ifthere could be any doubt Safety
first, always, always, always,over and over and over.
But you want to hear the dirtytruth.
Safety is not really ever first.
(01:53):
Safety generally, as best I canfigure, is third.
The reason I believe safetyshould be third is that it's so
important you can't really putit at number one, because if you
put it at number one and say itover and over and over again,
you start to get complacent.
And this is what's happened tome over the last four or five
(02:14):
years.
I've broken fingers, fracturedtoes and cracked ribs and fused
my own contact lenses to my eyes.
Once and every single time I'vehurt myself.
It's always been in thatfraction of a moment where I
take my eye off the ball and Istart to think that maybe
somebody, somewhere, cares moreabout my well-being than me.
It is always a mistake to letthat happen, and the more
(02:38):
banners you see reminding you ofhow important safety is for me
anyway, the more complacent Ibecome.
So on the Dirty Jobs crew, westarted to say safety.
Third, just to remind you thatultimately it was on you, I'll
tell you a story About threeyears ago, maybe four, I was on
a crab boat called the Bountiful, up in the Bering Sea fishing
(03:00):
for king crabs with thoselunatics up there right, and we
were about 200 miles off thecoast of Russia.
The wind was blown about 40.
The seas were easily 35 feetand the crew was out there
working and I was out there withthem, you know, trying not to
get killed, and I went up on astack of crab pots that were
stacked on the back of the boatand I was helping unlash them
(03:20):
and I was scared less.
I mean very, very frightening,and eventually I just couldn't
take it anymore.
I scrambled down off the potsdown to the deck and I went up
to the wheelhouse and I went inand the captain is hunched over
the wheel.
He's doing his thing and thegreen water's coming over the
bow and it's just soridiculously hazardous.
I looked at him and I said Cap,osha.
(03:41):
And he looks at me and saysOSHA, ocean.
And we had a little laugh andI'm like no, seriously, I've
been all over your boat.
I don't see any signs aboutsafety.
I don't see any special guardsor rails, or I mean, what's
going on here?
And he said son, I'm thecaptain of a crab boat.
My job is not to get you homealive, my job is to get you home
(04:05):
rich.
You want to come home alive,that's on you.
I got it In that moment I gotit.
Nobody was looking out for meother than me.
I spent every second on thatboat and grabbing on to every
single thing I could and notletting go.
I put safety first, second,third, fourth, all the way down
(04:26):
the list.
I never took my eye off it.
So it's not that we don't thinksafety is the most important
thing.
It's just that when you keepsaying it's first, you got to
wonder where everything elsefalls into place.
Don't be that guy, be careful.
Safety third, always in the topfive anyway.
(04:46):
That's the dirty truth.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
So where's the middle ground?
June is National SafetyAwareness Month and we're super
fortunate to have PaulBragginser from AcroShare on the
podcast to talk about how toincorporate a safe workplace.
Have people actually not wantto cut corners and get the work
done?
Speaker 1 (05:04):
National Safety Month is an initiative created and
run by the National SafetyCouncil.
The council is a nonprofitagency with a congressional
charter but is not administeredby the United States government.
June is National Safety Monthand is designed to raise
awareness of health and safetyrisks.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Paul Bragginser is the director of risk resources
at Accresure, and Paul and Ihave been talking back and forth
for a little bit over a yearnow.
Paul Bragginser is the Directorof Risk Resources at Accresure,
and Paul and I have beentalking back and forth for a
little bit over a year now.
I've been fortunate enough tobe a part of some of the things
that Accresure is doing andreally think that the resources
that they provided and Paul'sexpertise is really going to
help us kind of understand somethings that we're going to talk
(05:40):
about in the next few minutes aswe kind of, I guess, celebrate
National Safety Awareness Monthin June.
So, paul, thanks for being onREA Audio and I appreciate you
taking some time.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
Oh, it's my pleasure, and thank you so much for the
invitation to speak with you.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Of course.
So, paul Accresure, tell mewhat do you do as Director of
Risk Resources at Accresure,what are the risk resources
available and what do you guysdo?
Speaker 4 (06:06):
What we do is assist clients of Accresure to improve
their safety programming, theirrisk resource programming, so
that, as an insurance broker,our goal is to help our clients
be good risks to insurancecarriers.
So our goal is to help them tounderstand the principles of
(06:29):
running a company in a safemanner so that they are not
relying on insurance to coverincidences that then results in
them having to pay more fortheir insurance and all the
other negative things that goalong with that.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
So helping companies be safer and all the other
negative things that go alongwith that, so helping companies
be safer and so I played thatvideo or the audio from the
video from Mike Rowe prior toour conversation and I know
you've looked at it and wetalked a little bit about it and
I think Mike's main idea ofsaying safety third was to kind
of just raise some eyebrowsright, because it's so
(07:03):
unconventional to hear that andhe tells some good stories in
there.
What was your take on thatvideo and how do you think it
relates to some of the thingsthat you all are doing at
Accrasure?
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Yeah, that video was very interesting.
The way that Mike tells hisstory, makes his point, was a
different approach than what youwould normally see, um, but I
think, in the end, what heultimately was trying to
communicate was that safety isnot about, uh, delegation or
(07:37):
designation, it's not aboutcompliance, it's not about
following rules, uh, becausethat specific point where he
talked about his conversationwith the ship's captain steered
in that direction that Mike wasresponsible for Mike's safety.
And so, as far as how that allrelates with what Acquisher is
(08:01):
doing, that principle of safetybeing more of a cultural issue
than a compliance issue isexactly what we strive to do.
I have seen this in more than40 years of helping companies
avoid injuries and recover fromthe outcomes of injuries.
(08:21):
For sure, outcomes of injuries,for sure.
Compliance-based programs willonly get you so far, and now a
compliance-based program isstrictly an organization that
relies on their rule book.
We've got all our safety rulesand if you don't participate or
follow these safety rules, thenthere's punishment.
(08:49):
And what I have seen personallyand many of our other
consultants have seen, is thatthe added rules without
relationship equals rebellion,and so people, if they view your
risk resource program and Ithink this is what Mike was
trying to say as a list of rules.
We're going to be so safetyminded that we've got all these
rules and we're going to tellyou how to do your job, to work
safely.
That works as long as theperson thinks that they're going
(09:14):
to get caught.
But the minute they think thatthey can do something they think
is smarter, a shortcut, faster,or the emphasis is less just
get the job done, then they'regoing to take that shortcut,
knowing what they're supposed todo.
(09:35):
But that right.
There is the scenario where myexperience over the last 40 some
years is that the worstinjuries that I've ever come
across in the occupationalsetting almost always occur in a
company that people know whatthey're supposed to do but the
person chose to do somethingdifferent for various reasons.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
You know it's funny.
He showed that picture of thesign safety first and I've seen
you know signs in when I go getmy car fixed in garages that say
it's been this many days sincewe've had a work related injury
and so there's always thosereminders of safety.
And we were kind of talkingabout this prior to.
Recording was like you can haveall the rules and you know what
(10:23):
you have to do or what you'resupposed to do.
Tell me about the understanding, the why behind it.
Why is it important for peopleto understand why we don't want
to have a work related injury inX number of days or why we want
to make safety the number onepriority?
What's the importance of thewhy?
Speaker 4 (10:41):
The importance of the why is looking at again.
What I tell people many timesis save us two words in the
English language, or what if?
Save us two words in theEnglish language or what if?
Because when we're doingsomething we all are told, we
all have rules that we aresupposed to be living our life
by.
For example, anybody who drivesa car knows that speed limits
(11:05):
are posted and we're supposed todrive at those speed limits.
How many of us do Well, when wethink we're going to get caught
if there's a police officer?
on the side of the road we'redriving a speed limit, but the
minute that we believe thatwe're in an area where we're not
going to get caught, we mightchoose to go faster than the
(11:26):
speed limit for personal reasons.
So organizations that havesafety rules again, rules
without relationship equalsrebellion People will follow
those rules, but if they don'tknow why that rule exists, then
it's just something that's intheir way to get the job done.
(11:48):
So every single time I've everinvestigated a very serious
injury or fatality, um, everysingle time the person uh, if
they were still alive, wasadmitting, would admit, say you
know what?
I?
I knew I wasn't supposed to dothat, yeah, but I chose to do it
(12:09):
because I was in a hurry, oryou know, pick your reason.
Whereas then the things thatthey talk about after the
incident has occurred is theconsequences of that injury.
What's it going to mean?
And you know, you can get asgruesome as you want with the
(12:33):
people that have, you know,amputated limbs, significant
spinal injuries, back injuries,injuries requiring shoulder
surgery, brain injuries, all ofthe above.
There's a consequence that manypeople don't stop and ask
themselves am I willing to paythis price by taking this
shortcut?
What if this doesn't go right,and the thing about all the
(12:56):
safety rules let's call themOSHA laws is that almost all of
them came into being becausesomebody or a pattern of people
got hurt.
Right, they're not just therefor no reason In his book.
Start With why Simon Sinektalks about.
You will only pursue somethingwith passion if you know why
(13:18):
you're doing it and you know avery good story on this.
One Worked with an organizationmany years ago, prior to
initiating with this client.
Three years before I startedworking with them, they had one
of their employees get killed onthe job, and so when I got
(13:39):
there and would go out to thefield to talk with the workers
that are on a project, you know,typical question would be hey,
you know what are you guysworking on?
And they'd tell me what theywere doing and I'd say oh, what
hazards do you see here todaythat you're concerned about?
And a typical response was youknow, well, it was rather
colorful many times withmetaphors, but they would say
(13:59):
we're not a safe company, so wedon't pay attention to that
safety stuff.
And when I would ask them well,okay, well, what do you mean?
Why do you say that?
Well, if we were a safe companyjust for a generic name, bob
wouldn't have died.
This was a smaller company.
Everybody knew who Bob was, andso they would tell me stories
(14:23):
about yeah, I was there the dayBob died.
I knew Bob.
My wife still knows Bob.
Bob's a widow.
One guy actually told me I'mthe one that found Bob.
You know, one guy actually toldme I'm the one that found Bob.
And so what it showed was thatthis company was just swimming
in regret.
These people were swimming inregrets and so safety had no
(14:48):
meaning to them, even thoughthey had a very complete safety
rulebook, safety manual.
But their safety record wasterrible even after Bob died,
because the point was drivenhome that we're not a safe
company because if we were, bobwouldn't have died.
So we worked with them and cameup with something that
everybody agreed.
This was something that theyagreed that this is us a safety
purpose statement that saidbeing safe on purpose equals no
(15:13):
regrets.
And then everybody in thecompany agreed that that was
very authentic for them, becausethey admitted that they had
deep regrets that their friendhad died, and so that company
following now with a new purpose, same rules in place, they were
able to.
Well, the whole time that wewere working with them two and a
(15:36):
half three years.
They had no lost time injuriesin that whole period of time and
the injury rate plummetedbecause people were now doing
things on a purpose rather thanout of compliance.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
And it's interesting that you tell the story, that
story, because I, you know, Iwas thinking as as you were
talking.
So, like I do, handyman stuffaround the house, right.
And I just remodeled my bathroomand I installed new switches
and I knew I should turn off theelectrical before I install the
switches, right, but you knowit's going to save me some time,
(16:15):
right?
So more times than once I havehit two wires together and
created a spark and gone oh, Ishouldn't have done that, maybe
I'll go turn the breaker off.
So then I go turn the breakeroff.
Fortunately I didn't incur anyserious injury from that, right.
My dad, when I was a little kidwe lived up North and he was
(16:36):
snowblowing the driveway andthat real heavy snow that gets
clogged up in the in thesnowblower had clogged up the
chute and he turned thesnowblower off and took his hand
and pushed it, pushed the snowdown into the shoot and the
auger was still cycling through,it had not stopped and he
(16:59):
nipped off the tips of hisfingers.
He never did that again, right,and I never hooked up a plug
after I got those sparks, beforeI shut things off.
It seems like sometimes peopleactually you can't just tell
them the consequence.
They have to experience somekind of consequence before they
change their behavior.
(17:20):
And in that story you just told, it's interesting to me that
having Bob die wasn't enough tomake people change their
behaviors.
There was more to it than that.
Is that something that you seewhen you work with companies,
that that it's not just theexperience that they have, but
it's gotta be a kind of a commonagreement to what has to be
(17:43):
done?
I mean, that's almost like apsychology type of stuff that
you're doing there.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Yeah yeah, kind of, I guess it is.
You know, a lot of theseconcepts really came together.
There was a book I don'tremember the authors right now,
but it was called the PurposeRevolution and in there they
talked about oh even in JimCollins' Good to Great, all of
the companies that just reallyexceed in anything always are
operating on an identified,agreed purpose.
(18:10):
There's a value there.
They're saying this isimportant.
So one of the things that we dowith our clients is help them
identify a safety purposestatement.
Let's find out.
Okay, guys, we can give you allthe templates you want and
(18:31):
follow all the rules, but ifrules were enough to keep your
people injured, then nobody witha rule book would ever have any
injuries, and that's just notthe case.
So, again, I think that's whatMike was talking about in that
video was that it's?
It's a bigger.
It's bigger than just saying,okay, we're going to focus on
safety, um, and what thattypically means is we're going
(18:54):
to make sure we have all theserules and we're going to enforce
these rules, whereas if youread any of the stories of
companies that have drasticallysucceeded, using safety as a
leader like I think it was AlcoaAluminum, that whole company
the gentleman said we're goingto be the best aluminum company
in the world because we'll bethe safest.
(19:15):
And they laughed at him.
But that's exactly whathappened.
But it wasn't because they werefollowing the rules.
It's because people said youknow what?
This is a purpose and we'regoing to abide by that purpose
and the rules will take care ofthemselves.
And we're going to abide bythat purpose and the rules will
(19:38):
take care of themselves.
Rules will never drive aculture, but cultures will
improve rule compliance, I guess, if you want to say it that way
.
So that's a key, key componentthat we work with and really
what we've seen is thatcompanies that don't do that you
(20:03):
can, you can get.
You can become safer.
If you just don't know whatyou're supposed to do and all,
and then you apply some guidancewith safety rules, yeah, you'll
become somewhat safer.
But if what you're after isthat world-class safety result
where people are staying safe onpurpose, that's not going to
come from a rule book.
(20:23):
That's going to come from.
This is who we are.
This isn't what we do.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
And culture change is never easy.
It's always an uphill battleand you know many companies I've
been at where culture changewas part of.
You know the process.
That, where culture change waspart of, you know the process.
You know I've been through fromthe beginning to the end, right
, and and seeing that you knowif people don't want to get on
the bus, maybe they don't needto be on this bus, right?
(20:51):
I mean, sometimes that's whatit takes.
So if I'm a safety professionallistening to this right now and
I understand that I'm at aplace where we are following a
rule book and that culture issomething that needs to be
changed, what are some of thethings that I can do to at least
start that process, to getpeople to understand that it's
(21:12):
not just a rule book, that it'sa culture shift that needs to
happen?
Speaker 4 (21:17):
There's many things that an organization can do.
We spend a lot of timeanalyzing and evaluating a
company and their culture andall the components of their risk
control program to help themidentify where their greatest
opportunities for improvementare.
But some of the things is justrecognize you're not going to do
(21:37):
it alone.
You will not create a culturewithin an organization by
yourself.
Again, remember rules withoutrelationship equals rebellion.
So it's all it is going to be.
All about relationships andpeople need to see, well, the
risk control person as aresource.
(22:02):
The minute that and I knew thisalmost instinctively was that if
all I am is the safety police,I failed.
Because as soon as I'm notthere, just like driving down
the highway, as soon as if theperson thinks that you know,
sees a police and the medianpoint in their direction, they
(22:22):
know that they might get aticket.
Or if they're speeding, theywill get a ticket.
But that means then, if thatsame mentality is on my job site
, that when I show up,everyone's acting safe and as
soon as I leave, they go back todoing what you're.
You're just asked.
It's going to be a disaster yeahuh, and you'll get unintended
(22:47):
and very unfortunate outcomes.
So one thing is just recognizethat it is a relationship, uh,
and you can't do it alone.
Uh, this is where I'm a hugeproponent of safety committees.
You've got to get peopleinvolved in change, otherwise
it's again just trying to push acar up a hill by yourself.
(23:09):
It's just not going to happen.
So, incorporating that wholeconcept of a safety committee
where it is a true committee andwe teach people how to have
successful safety committeesCause I've seen some that are
nothing more than a frustration,and but there's reasons for
that but effective committeeswill spread a culture, help
(23:33):
spread a culture over time.
Realize it's not going tohappen overnight, but you really
do have to get down to the nutsand bolts of it is.
Why is this important?
Why do we care?
A company that we were workingwith was really struggling with
(23:53):
their safety program and theycouldn't understand why all
these rules and things that theywere trying to engage in their
workers with weren't working.
And so we talked about the ideaof a purpose statement, and
they happened to be in a very acompany that stressed family and
had a very family orientedworkforce, and so the minute
(24:18):
they tied those two together,that you know we work safe, so
that you go home to your familyat night and you can provide.
As soon as people put thatconnection together in their
head, it was like instant change, because they didn't see it as
well.
I'm only following this rulebecause my boss is telling me
(24:39):
and then I'm going to take thisshortcut so I can get more
production.
They're not thinking oh wait aminute, what happens if this
doesn't go right, if I break myleg or whatever, and I can't
provide for my family?
I don't like that outcome.
Therefore, I will make adifferent choice.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
It sounds like, and it's very similar to what we
tell insurance adjusters when wetalk about the re-employability
program.
And you got to look at theperson on that spreadsheet, not
just as a number on aspreadsheet, but as a human
being.
And if you can look at thesafety perspective not just that
we need to save money on ourworkers' comp claims, but more
(25:17):
like listen, I really want myhuman beings that work for me to
get home to their family and ifyou can instill that culture
into people, into a company,it's going to make a world of
difference.
And so it's about humanizingwhat it is that you're doing or
what we're doing on a dailybasis, and it makes such a
difference it sounds likeAbsolutely.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
We've all been a part of or seen.
You know those organizationsthat just focus on the
compliance.
You know, again, like Mike Rowesaid, safety is number one and
if you're not safe, boy, there'sgoing to be hell to pay.
It just doesn't work, becausepeople, ultimately you could be
(26:06):
saying that on one hand, andyour unintended message that
you're telling to the group isyou're saying safety's first,
but really production's first,and all you care about is so
many you know units I get outthe door today.
Therefore, you know I'm goingto do it.
What is that that's saying?
I can only hear what I see.
So if I see you doing somethingdifferent than what you're
(26:30):
telling me, I'm going to go withwhat I see.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Yeah, I mean.
That's true with raising kids,that's true with being in the
safety world, it's true withrunning a business.
Right, it's actions speaklouder than words, right?
So make your actions count,paul.
If people want more informationon what you do or what
Acquishire does, what's the bestway for them to get ahold is?
Speaker 4 (26:55):
email, and my email is P-B-R-A-G-E-N-Z-E-R at
Acrisure A-C-R-I-S-U-R-Ecom.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Well, paul, I'll make sure to put your email address
in the show notes so people canjust click on it to reach out to
you if they have questions orwant to investigate.
Uh, you know working withacrasure and I just want to say
thank you.
Uh, I always learn a lot when Ido these podcasts and I never
quite know, when we're jumpinginto something we've never done
a podcast on before, um, howit's going to turn out, um.
(27:36):
But I think, you know, havingsuch knowledgeable guests such
as yourself on really kind ofopens up the thought process for
people and I really, reallyappreciate your time.
I love the fact that we're allbringing it back to treating
humans like human beings and, aswe make that number one,
there's so many good things thatcan happen.
So I do appreciate your time,paul.
(27:58):
Thank you so much so.
Speaker 4 (27:59):
I do appreciate your time, Paul.
Thank you so much.
Oh, thank you, Todd, and rightback at you, you made it seem
you didn't make it seem like aninterview.
You asked great questions thatreally keep the thought process
moving.
So thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Thanks, paul.
Safety is usually defined asthe state of being safe, freedom
from the occurrence or risk ofinjury, danger or loss.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Thanks for listening to REA Audio.
Please make sure to follow uson Spotify or Apple Podcasts or
Stitcher or wherever you getyour podcasts.
We appreciate you.
Have a great rest of your week.
We'll see you next time.
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