November 27, 2024 • 29 mins
How can gratitude reshape the challenging world of workers’ compensation? In this episode, we sit down with Debbie Hammer, a seasoned claims consultant and AVP at Woodruff Sawyer, to explore how cultivating gratitude rebuilds trust among stakeholders. We tackle mistrust, the pandemic's lasting effects, and the surge in litigation, uncovering practical strategies like gratitude journaling and face-to-face communication. Join us as we delve into transformative insights and actionable methods to foster collaboration and create a more positive work environment.
Some research shows that gratitude can positively impact trust. Explore the resources below:
- Gratitude Journals: https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/can_gratitude_make_our_society_more_trusting
- Thank you: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/parenting-translator/202409/research-finds-that-hearing-thank-you-really-matters-for-parents
- How Gratitude Builds Trust: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-gratitude-builds-trust-your-team-sonya-shelton/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
perspective.
Perspective is spelled p e r sp e c t I v e.
Perspective the 30 000 footview perspective put on someone
else's shoes.
Perspective can also refer tothe state of existing in space
(00:20):
or one's view of the worldperspective rea audio space or
one's view of the worldPerspective REA Audio.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Reemployability.
Now I'm sure you wouldn't besurprised to learn that there is
a lack of trust in this country.
People don't trust others theway they used to.
People certainly don't trustinstitutions the way they used
to, and people are not trustingtheir employers the way they
used to either.
This lack of trust negativelyaffects our ability to do
business and prevents us fromliving the most fruitful lives
we possibly can.
So how do we fix this?
Well, like everything else inlife, it's a process that
(00:55):
includes many pieces, but sincewe're coming up on Thanksgiving,
we're going to focus on one ofthe pieces proven to increase
trust.
It's gratitude.
Yep, according to some recentlypublished studies, one of which
is in the Journal ofPersonality and Individual
Differences, by being gratefulyou can develop greater trust
for others.
(01:15):
And how does this translateinto the work comp world?
Well, this week we're going totalk to Debbie Hammer.
She's a specialty claimsconsultant and assistant vice
president at Woodruff Sawyer.
She'll share a little bit ofthe why and the how behind
building trust and how it helpseveryone involved in the work
comp environment.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Gratitude is usually defined as the quality or
feeling of being grateful orthankful.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
So, debbie Hammer, what we're going to talk about
today, I think, is you'reuniquely qualified to talk about
, especially since some of thepreliminary discussions we had
rolling into this.
So thanks again for being withus and, if you don't mind, just
kind of refresh everybody whatit is that you do as a specialty
claims consultant with WoodruffSawyer.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Sure.
Thank you, todd, and thank youfor having me on your show again
.
I appreciate being here and,yeah, it's been a long time.
A lot has changed.
So just a little bit about mybackground.
I have been with Woodruff Sawyerfor going on 19 years.
I've been in the claims worldand workers' comp claims for
(02:21):
about 35 years, started off,actually as a vocational
rehabilitation counselor, whereI was really an employee
advocate helping injured workersget back to work, and then I
made myself, you know, kind ofgo into the claims world when
Voc Rehab went out, californiadid away with that and so I
(02:43):
became a claims adjuster andworked my way up to supervising.
I handled catastrophic claimsand ultimately I ended up over
here on the broker side withWoodruff Sawyer being a claim
consultant and what I do is I ama claim liaison for our clients
.
I'm a go-between between ourclients, which are our employers
(03:08):
, our employers who we set upworkers' comp coverage for with
various carriers and theirclaims adjuster.
So I kind of like to see myselfas a peacemaker.
I provide claims, technicalexpertise and I oversee the
claims.
But we're going to be talking,I know, about trust and
(03:29):
gratitude today in the claimsprocess and I really see myself
as a peacemaker these days andreally am motivated to try to
bring people together in comingup with claim solutions that
work for everybody.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
That's great, you know.
Blessed are the peacemakers,right?
I mean, we're actually, as werecord this, we're rolling out
of the recent election and Ithink a lot of people were a
little bit on edge, really,regardless of what side you're
on.
Just overall, things seemedvery tense, and I know that they
(04:06):
still are, of course, but Ithink we rolled through the
election, at least in a muchcalmer way than I think a lot of
people anticipated.
And you know, I think a lot ofwhat made people feel uneasy is
this easy?
Is this what seems like acontinued degradation of trust
(04:28):
within people, you know,families, within businesses, and
that all really rolls into allthe things that you deal with on
a daily basis, and I deal within workers' compensation.
That lack of trust seems to beeverywhere and you know, as we
were talking about, becausewe're rolling into Thanksgiving
(04:49):
now, right, so we wanted to seeif there was some kind of a way
that we could bring this lack oftrust into gratitude.
But I'd like to ask you first,tell us a little bit about what
you see as that growing lack oftrust kind of in the workers'
comp world.
Like, talk about what you'reseeing.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Sure.
So unfortunately, we'restarting off with the negatives.
I know we'll get to thepositives, but I really am
seeing, on all sides of thefence, more litigation, I'm
seeing more retaliatory claims,there's a lot of anger and
frustration.
I'm seeing people spin theirwheels and a lot of burnout, and
(05:29):
definitely all of these thingsare causing a degradation of
trust in the workers' compsystem as a whole and between
all the different people who arecaught up in it, specifically
employers, injured workers,claims adjusters.
There's others as well.
Remember, we also have medicalproviders and nurse case
(05:55):
managers, attorneys on bothsides, so there's usually no one
person or factor that isresponsible for when claims go
sideways.
There's many things thatcontrol how a claim file goes.
There's the adjuster, thetreating doctor, there's other
medical specialists and morecomplex claims.
Then there's the employers,attorneys, judges and the
(06:16):
employees, laws and thecomplexities in workers' comp
are really multifactorial, Iwould say.
But unfortunately, what peopledo often is they blame and they
(06:38):
look for a scapegoat.
I think it's easier to do thismentally because it helps people
simplify a complex situationand we have a lot of those in
workers' comp but it's really noone's fault and the finger
pointing is only going tofurther erode trust.
So you know, I'm seeing anissue between employers and
(07:01):
their adjusters.
In that relationship there'ssometimes a lack of
responsiveness by the adjuster,by either the adjuster not
replying timely or not reallyanswering the questions being
asked.
Maybe they're being evasive,they're not being thorough and
there's different reasons forthat Sometimes the adjuster's
(07:22):
caseload is too high.
Reasons for that Sometimes theadjuster's caseload is too high.
Sometimes the adjuster needsmore technical claims training
or more customer servicetraining.
Other times it's timemanagement or all of that on the
adjuster side.
And then there's sometimeschallenges on the employer side
as well.
The employer may have certainexpectations, for example, about
(07:45):
how quickly or how often theadjuster should respond and give
updates.
If the expectation is withinthe hour or if it's weekly
updates, it's probably not goingto happen because in most cases
very little changes in a claimfile week to week.
So the demand for too frequentupdates is just going to be
(08:06):
counterproductive.
But regardless for an employer,not having a claim go the way
they think it's supposed to go,whether the expectation is
reasonable or not, decreasestheir trust and confidence in
the adjuster's ability to managethe claims.
So then what happens is theemployer puts pressure on the
(08:26):
adjuster, sometimesmicromanaging them, without even
being aware of it, but this inturn leads to adjuster burnout
and the adjuster then willmistrust the employer.
So again, the problem often isa combination from both the
adjuster side and the employerside.
(08:46):
The adjuster needs training andthen the employer also needs
some level setting, and thenthere's also a deterioration of
trust that my team is seeingbetween injured workers and
their employers, and there'sother factors that contribute to
this.
Some are involving lack ofunderstanding, again on both
(09:08):
sides, about what workers' compis, what benefits are covered,
what is the process, what arethe laws.
And you know we don't expectinjured workers to have a
technical understanding becausethey're lay people, but we do
expect that HR leaders wouldhave some technical knowledge
(09:30):
and unfortunately it's notalways the case nowadays,
because HR managers often comefrom non-work comp backgrounds,
you know, like payroll oraccounting, and while they may
be well-versed in other employeebenefits, they often lack
experience in workers' comp.
So what happens is when peopledon't understand something, they
(09:52):
will fill in the gaps withassumptions, and those
assumptions are often uncheckedand faulty and they create
misunderstandings andrelationship conflicts'm
breaking down the mistrust,breaking down trust.
Um.
So another problem I'll say onemore problem is turnover and
(10:14):
staffing shortages.
We're seeing it especially onthe claims adjusting side, but
it's really everywhere,including on the HR side.
This is creating delays inresponse times.
So the injured workers aren'tfeeling the love, they're losing
faith in both their adjusterand their employer.
And I think what makes thisproblem worse is the increased
(10:39):
sense of entitlement and urgencyamong younger generations.
That's a whole, separatesubject.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
I know, let's watch that.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yeah, you know there's, and then like one more
thing about turnover is whenthere is a lot of turnover it
doesn't allow time to formstrong trust bonds.
So it's really all a viciouscircle of mistrust.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
It sounds like most of what you're talking about.
You know it's funny when wewere talking about mistrust at
the outset.
You know, obviously I thinkwhen you think of mistrust at
least when I do within theworkers comp world I think
mistrust between the injuredworker and the insurance company
right, that's like the numberone, like oh, they're trying to
not pay me what is owed to me,right, and that's like the,
(11:24):
that's like the original line ofmistrust.
But when you brought upemployers and adjusters and
employees and employers, that tome gets a little bit deeper
into.
It seems almost like it allcomes down to communication,
into.
It seems almost like it allcomes down to communication,
right.
I mean obviously here atre-employability.
(11:46):
There's a lot of moving piecesin what we do with regards to
placing injured workers intononprofits and from a sales
perspective.
One of the things I've learnedhere is it is better to manage
expectations on the front endthan it is to try to fix things
on the back end.
So, even from a salesperspective, I would rather be
upfront and transparent to aprospective client and explain
(12:07):
to them what this really is andwhat it really isn't and let
them make the decision.
If they want to move forwardwith it, then Because I would
rather you be satisfied knowingthat and my experience has been
most people when you justcommunicate with them and say,
listen, you know, maybe not inthese words, but hey, I'm a
human being, we are imperfectpeople and this is what we can
(12:29):
do for you.
Although there may sometimes behurdles, people understand that
because it puts us all in thesame place.
Right, I am not perfect andnobody here is, and I really
like having this conversationbecause anybody hearing this
just realizes if I can just be areal human being to another
(12:50):
real human being on the outset,a lot of times that'll overcome
some of this trust.
Have you mentioned or have younoticed that a lot of this
decline in trust has it beenkind of since COVID?
It feels like COVID kind ofjust put a wrench in our machine
somehow and as we came out ofit, things just didn't boot up
properly.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (13:12):
It makes a lot of sense and absolutely I think
that trust erosion is one of thecasualties of the pandemic.
We are four plus years out fromthat first shelter in place and
I don't think people want totalk about the pandemic anymore.
It's like the elephant in theroom now.
(13:33):
But there are ongoing residualeffects in many areas of life
and one of those areas isworkers' comp and insurance.
You know, one of the increasesor one of the problems is an
increase in litigation, and whatI've seen happen is my theory
(13:55):
is that the reason why there'smore litigation now in comp is
because during the pandemic, theshelters caused many people to
be out of work, with lessworkers, there were less
injuries, so applicant attorneyfirms were losing money, they
were losing business and whenthings started opening up again,
(14:17):
they had to recoup their losses.
So they increased theirmarketing budgets and they
started telling injured people,injured workers, that they
needed to have an attorneyrepresent them in their workers'
comp claim, which is simply nottrue.
No one needs to have anattorney represent them, which
(14:38):
is simply not true.
No one needs to have anattorney represent them.
So that's one area that I thinkhas been directly impacted by
the pandemic.
Another area is remote work.
Employees who are workingremotely aren't interacting with
their managers as much.
And I know that employers havemade efforts to replace
in-person interaction withvirtual interaction, but I don't
(15:00):
think it's been consistent andit hasn't been enough.
So we know that behind a screenis impersonal and we know that
building and maintaining trustin relationships requires
regular communication andface-to-face time is always
better.
I think that more workers arefeeling isolated and social
(15:21):
disconnection can make peoplesuspicious.
I like to call it Twilight Zoneparanoia that's the name that
came up for that.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
That's awesome.
You got to copyright that and Ithink that breeds mistrust.
Yeah, it does.
One of the things we run intois, I can recall before the
pandemic, we would go into acarrier or a TPA's office and
there would be 20, 30 adjustersthere and we'd bring them lunch
and we'd do a refresher courseas to what our program is and
(15:53):
how it can better them andbetter their clients.
And we would have interaction.
And I could see the guy thatwas up in the right-hand corner
on his phone while I was doingmy presentation.
And so there's ways, as apresenter, that you can bring
people in and be more creativeand fun with your presentation
to hopefully engage people andget them to understand the
(16:15):
benefits of what you're doing.
And when you're on a Zoom call,I've done Zoom or Teams
presentations for hundreds ofpeople and you don't know if
that person is there or notbecause nobody's got their
screens on, or if they do, youknow who knows?
But nothing will ever replaceshaking somebody's hand and
introducing yourself.
(16:36):
And maybe I'm just an old guy,but I do not believe that we can
go 100% like what we're doingright now.
I would much rather be in theroom with you, debbie, having
this conversation and meetingyour folks and those things.
You're absolutely right.
I think that interaction is keyto building trust, for sure.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
One of the things that, as we lead into some other
tools that people can use tohelp build that trust.
And again, one of the thingsI've identified is you know I
can't make you trust me, but Ican do a better job at trying to
trust you better.
Right, so I can control what Ican control, and part of what I
can control is some tools that Ican do to to increase my level
(17:20):
or ability to trust other people.
And one of those things, againas we go into Thanksgiving, is
is gratitude, which, believe itor not, there are some studies
that actually show that, bydoing gratitude lists, those
types of things help you becomemore trustful to the people that
you're interacting with,whether it's family people or if
(17:42):
it's people within business.
Have you had any experiencewith gratitude and developing
trust with your clients?
Speaker 3 (17:51):
For sure, and gratitude is actually one of my
favorite things to talk about,actually one of my favorite
things to talk about.
I have a journal that I writein every day and it's one of the
first things I do in themorning.
Actually, I'm not even kidding,I have a gratitude journal and
I find that that is reallyhelpful for me, and I do think
(18:13):
that when an individual canreflect on what they're grateful
for, they can become moretrusting in general of people
and society.
You know, gratitude and trustare both positive emotions, so
naturally they will flow fromeach other in alignment.
But I also think that it'sdifficult to have gratitude for
(18:34):
something or someone if youdon't already have trust in the
system or person you were tryingto be grateful for.
So I think that building trustis a prerequisite, or at least
very important, to genuinelydeveloping a sense of gratitude.
(18:56):
Gratitude and I think that thisis the situation we are in with
the many different relationshipsand players in the workers'
comp system, all the ones we'vebeen talking about I think that
there's also prerequisites tobuilding trust.
So you know the importance ofregular interaction like we
talked about, facetime isimportant Responsiveness and
being timely and thorough inresponsiveness.
(19:16):
And then, you know, to yourpoint, setting clear and
reasonable expectations.
And I agree with youwholeheartedly, it's all about
positive communication, you know, and I think that the feelings
of gratitude and trust come withreciprocity.
I think that if I appreciateyou, chances are you probably
(19:39):
appreciate me too.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yeah, for sure, you know, and it's funny, I've tried
.
I'm going to be completelyhonest.
I have tried to do gratitudejournals in the morning.
I think my longest stretch wasmaybe two or three weeks and my
problem is that I get to a pointwhere I feel like I'm putting
the same things down all thetime and I don't get deep enough
(20:01):
into it.
And what I have found is, when alot of these things stem from
conversations, I'm so gratefulfor my dogs, because if it
weren't for my dogs, my wife andI would not take evening walks
almost every evening, right?
So when the dogs force us totake a walk together, we have
conversations, and a lot oftimes those conversations are
(20:23):
about things that we're dealingwith on a daily basis at our
work and things, and and I'llcome to her and ask her you know
, what do you think about this?
And she'll ask me what do youthink about that?
And it forces me to put myselfin the other person's shoes when
it's difficult for her to dothat, and she does the same
thing for me, and we're able tohelp give a perspective that
(20:45):
maybe neither one of us had seenfrom that other person.
So I mean, I'm super gratefulfor that.
And it's those little thingsthat when I'm sitting down to
make my gratitude list that I'mgoing, you know, maybe I need to
sit back a little bit more andrealize those little things on a
daily basis that really impactwhat your outlook and
(21:06):
perspective is for the rest ofthe day.
Right, what are talk a littlebit about some.
So obviously you're interactingwith employers and you're kind
of that.
You're kind of the bridge orthe glue between the employer
and the carriers and TPAs.
Are you actively involved inbrokering peace or brokering
(21:29):
trust or helping othersunderstand the perspectives of
the other party?
How does that work with whatyou do?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Well, first of all, I really like that term or phrase
broker of trust, broker ofpeace.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
There you go.
I'm going to go ahead and I'mgoing to take that one, yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
So for sure on all sides.
And I really do think it startswith respect, recognizing our
shared humanity it sounds kindof goofy but I think it's really
true and then positivecommunication.
And you can't really have thatwithout having the respect and
(22:10):
the shared humanity concept andall of that, the shared humanity
concept and all of that.
And then it's clearcommunication.
I think that kind and clearcommunication is the key.
Let's see some of my tips andtricks around building better
communication and trust.
I think education is a big oneand at Woodruff Sawyer we do a
(22:34):
Workers' Comp 101 presentationcovering the basics for our
clients, at least annually.
Sometimes we do that more often.
We also hold webinars onspecific topics like legislative
changes, those things.
We try to make education andinformation a part of our claim
(22:55):
reviews, where we're not justtalking about the status of
individual claims, we'reclarifying general legal issues
and processes.
We're clarifying understandingsof our clients and what we need
to clarify more for them,giving realistic estimates for
(23:15):
certain actions to be completed.
You know people need to knowthat workers' comp isn't a
bullet train.
It's more like a slow kiddietrain zigzagging along through
the park and it's not a greatthing, but it's our reality and
we have to accept that and dothe best we can.
(23:37):
It takes time for injuredworkers to get medical
appointments set up, it takestime to get the reports back
from the physicians and it takestime for the work comp boards
to schedule hearings and approvesettlements.
(24:04):
So again, all we can do is takecontrol of what we can and be as
proactive as we can, and Ithink that education and
information do help createrealistic expectations, which
then builds trust possible.
I am honest with my clientsabout options and strategies.
If a client makes a request andI don't see the request as
reasonable, I will tell them soand I'll explain why.
You know we're not here tosugarcoat and tell people what
(24:26):
they want to hear or makepromises that can't be kept In
the long run.
That won't go well for anybodyand it's just going to break
down trust In the long run.
That won't go well for anybodyand it's just going to break
down trust.
So I think that people wanthonesty, even when it's not the
answer that they're looking for.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Yeah, and I think I'll add on to that.
I think asking really, reallygood questions is key in helping
to develop that as well.
Not only does it help you tobetter understand the position
of the person that you'retalking to, it also shows
empathy and it shows that youcare and that you want to know
more.
(25:03):
And it's super, super important,even if you're an adjuster and
you work with a lot ofconstruction companies and
you've heard it all from everyconstruction company before.
Right, ask the questions, evenif you think you're going to
know the answer, because chancesare, every once in a while
there's going to be somethingnew that kind of piques your
interest.
And if you can ask thatquestion and repeat the answer
(25:23):
back and dig a little bit deeper, it shows your client, it shows
the injured worker, it showsthe doctor that you are paying
attention and that you do careabout their needs, and then
you're going to do what you cando to meet those needs.
Even if you're not going to beable to provide everything that
they want, at least you'reshowing empathy and transparency
(25:44):
and care.
And it sounds so easy, but itcomes down to one human being
talking to another human beingand being grateful for the
opportunity that we have toserve each other.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
And.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
I think that as brokers and consultants, we need
to be leaders and role models,and we're the ones who are
setting the tone in meetings andinteractions.
So the better the relationshipbetween the employer and their
carrier from the beginning andthe more trust established early
on, the less likelydisagreements will occur.
(26:20):
So I think we as consultantsare in a position to nurture
these positive relationships.
And definitely back to yourpoint about just checking in
making sure everybodyunderstands and is on the same
page and you know, seeing whatneeds to be clarified, what
(26:41):
information people still need,what questions do people still
have, and seeking to answerthose questions.
I think we move so quicklythrough claim reviews.
It's all rapid fire, it's a lotof abbreviation and lingo and
we're not checking forunderstanding as often as maybe
we used to in the past and asoften as we should.
(27:03):
Those things are very importantand soliciting feedback from
people to make sure their voicesare heard and do they have any
special requests that can beaccommodated.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Yep, little things make such a big difference.
Debbie, if anybody's listeningthat has further questions or
would want to get in touch withyou, what's the best way to do
that?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
People can email me at dhammer, at woodruffsawyercom
or my number 415-878-2476.
And you can always Google us onWoodruff Sawyer and find us
there.
Terrific.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
I'm going to put the links to some of these studies
that I found that kind of relategratitude with building trust,
If anybody's interested inlooking at it.
It's interesting stuff and it'sthings that we can control, and
that's what I love, becausethere's a lot of things I can't.
So, Debbie, it's been really,really nice to talk to you again
(28:06):
.
Let's not go two years.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Definitely we need more frequent interaction.
Todd.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yes, for sure, for sure, and you have a great
Thanksgiving.
It was nice to see you again.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Thank you so much.
You too, todd, take care.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Alexa, what's your favorite thing to do on
Thanksgiving?
Speaker 1 (28:26):
I can't eat or drink, but I'm happy to serve up a
plate of food jokes for you.
One time I ate a rainbow.
It was delicious but light.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Thanks for listening to REA Audio.
Please make sure to follow uson Spotify or Apple Podcasts or
Stitcher or wherever you getyour podcasts.
We appreciate you.
Have a great rest of your week.
We'll see you next time.
perspective.
Perspective is spelled p e r sp e c t I v e.
Perspective the 30 000 footview perspective put on someone
else's shoes.
Perspective can also refer tothe state of existing in space
(00:20):
or one's view of the worldperspective rea audio space or
one's view of the worldPerspective REA Audio.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Reemployability.
Now I'm sure you wouldn't besurprised to learn that there is
a lack of trust in this country.
People don't trust others theway they used to.
People certainly don't trustinstitutions the way they used
to, and people are not trustingtheir employers the way they
used to either.
This lack of trust negativelyaffects our ability to do
business and prevents us fromliving the most fruitful lives
we possibly can.
So how do we fix this?
Well, like everything else inlife, it's a process that
(00:55):
includes many pieces, but sincewe're coming up on Thanksgiving,
we're going to focus on one ofthe pieces proven to increase
trust.
It's gratitude.
Yep, according to some recentlypublished studies, one of which
is in the Journal ofPersonality and Individual
Differences, by being gratefulyou can develop greater trust
for others.
(01:15):
And how does this translateinto the work comp world?
Well, this week we're going totalk to Debbie Hammer.
She's a specialty claimsconsultant and assistant vice
president at Woodruff Sawyer.
She'll share a little bit ofthe why and the how behind
building trust and how it helpseveryone involved in the work
comp environment.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Gratitude is usually defined as the quality or
feeling of being grateful orthankful.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
So, debbie Hammer, what we're going to talk about
today, I think, is you'reuniquely qualified to talk about
, especially since some of thepreliminary discussions we had
rolling into this.
So thanks again for being withus and, if you don't mind, just
kind of refresh everybody whatit is that you do as a specialty
claims consultant with WoodruffSawyer.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Sure.
Thank you, todd, and thank youfor having me on your show again
.
I appreciate being here and,yeah, it's been a long time.
A lot has changed.
So just a little bit about mybackground.
I have been with Woodruff Sawyerfor going on 19 years.
I've been in the claims worldand workers' comp claims for
(02:21):
about 35 years, started off,actually as a vocational
rehabilitation counselor, whereI was really an employee
advocate helping injured workersget back to work, and then I
made myself, you know, kind ofgo into the claims world when
Voc Rehab went out, californiadid away with that and so I
(02:43):
became a claims adjuster andworked my way up to supervising.
I handled catastrophic claimsand ultimately I ended up over
here on the broker side withWoodruff Sawyer being a claim
consultant and what I do is I ama claim liaison for our clients
.
I'm a go-between between ourclients, which are our employers
(03:08):
, our employers who we set upworkers' comp coverage for with
various carriers and theirclaims adjuster.
So I kind of like to see myselfas a peacemaker.
I provide claims, technicalexpertise and I oversee the
claims.
But we're going to be talking,I know, about trust and
(03:29):
gratitude today in the claimsprocess and I really see myself
as a peacemaker these days andreally am motivated to try to
bring people together in comingup with claim solutions that
work for everybody.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
That's great, you know.
Blessed are the peacemakers,right?
I mean, we're actually, as werecord this, we're rolling out
of the recent election and Ithink a lot of people were a
little bit on edge, really,regardless of what side you're
on.
Just overall, things seemedvery tense, and I know that they
(04:06):
still are, of course, but Ithink we rolled through the
election, at least in a muchcalmer way than I think a lot of
people anticipated.
And you know, I think a lot ofwhat made people feel uneasy is
this easy?
Is this what seems like acontinued degradation of trust
(04:28):
within people, you know,families, within businesses, and
that all really rolls into allthe things that you deal with on
a daily basis, and I deal within workers' compensation.
That lack of trust seems to beeverywhere and you know, as we
were talking about, becausewe're rolling into Thanksgiving
(04:49):
now, right, so we wanted to seeif there was some kind of a way
that we could bring this lack oftrust into gratitude.
But I'd like to ask you first,tell us a little bit about what
you see as that growing lack oftrust kind of in the workers'
comp world.
Like, talk about what you'reseeing.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Sure.
So unfortunately, we'restarting off with the negatives.
I know we'll get to thepositives, but I really am
seeing, on all sides of thefence, more litigation, I'm
seeing more retaliatory claims,there's a lot of anger and
frustration.
I'm seeing people spin theirwheels and a lot of burnout, and
(05:29):
definitely all of these thingsare causing a degradation of
trust in the workers' compsystem as a whole and between
all the different people who arecaught up in it, specifically
employers, injured workers,claims adjusters.
There's others as well.
Remember, we also have medicalproviders and nurse case
(05:55):
managers, attorneys on bothsides, so there's usually no one
person or factor that isresponsible for when claims go
sideways.
There's many things thatcontrol how a claim file goes.
There's the adjuster, thetreating doctor, there's other
medical specialists and morecomplex claims.
Then there's the employers,attorneys, judges and the
(06:16):
employees, laws and thecomplexities in workers' comp
are really multifactorial, Iwould say.
But unfortunately, what peopledo often is they blame and they
(06:38):
look for a scapegoat.
I think it's easier to do thismentally because it helps people
simplify a complex situationand we have a lot of those in
workers' comp but it's really noone's fault and the finger
pointing is only going tofurther erode trust.
So you know, I'm seeing anissue between employers and
(07:01):
their adjusters.
In that relationship there'ssometimes a lack of
responsiveness by the adjuster,by either the adjuster not
replying timely or not reallyanswering the questions being
asked.
Maybe they're being evasive,they're not being thorough and
there's different reasons forthat Sometimes the adjuster's
(07:22):
caseload is too high.
Reasons for that Sometimes theadjuster's caseload is too high.
Sometimes the adjuster needsmore technical claims training
or more customer servicetraining.
Other times it's timemanagement or all of that on the
adjuster side.
And then there's sometimeschallenges on the employer side
as well.
The employer may have certainexpectations, for example, about
(07:45):
how quickly or how often theadjuster should respond and give
updates.
If the expectation is withinthe hour or if it's weekly
updates, it's probably not goingto happen because in most cases
very little changes in a claimfile week to week.
So the demand for too frequentupdates is just going to be
(08:06):
counterproductive.
But regardless for an employer,not having a claim go the way
they think it's supposed to go,whether the expectation is
reasonable or not, decreasestheir trust and confidence in
the adjuster's ability to managethe claims.
So then what happens is theemployer puts pressure on the
(08:26):
adjuster, sometimesmicromanaging them, without even
being aware of it, but this inturn leads to adjuster burnout
and the adjuster then willmistrust the employer.
So again, the problem often isa combination from both the
adjuster side and the employerside.
(08:46):
The adjuster needs training andthen the employer also needs
some level setting, and thenthere's also a deterioration of
trust that my team is seeingbetween injured workers and
their employers, and there'sother factors that contribute to
this.
Some are involving lack ofunderstanding, again on both
(09:08):
sides, about what workers' compis, what benefits are covered,
what is the process, what arethe laws.
And you know we don't expectinjured workers to have a
technical understanding becausethey're lay people, but we do
expect that HR leaders wouldhave some technical knowledge
(09:30):
and unfortunately it's notalways the case nowadays,
because HR managers often comefrom non-work comp backgrounds,
you know, like payroll oraccounting, and while they may
be well-versed in other employeebenefits, they often lack
experience in workers' comp.
So what happens is when peopledon't understand something, they
(09:52):
will fill in the gaps withassumptions, and those
assumptions are often uncheckedand faulty and they create
misunderstandings andrelationship conflicts'm
breaking down the mistrust,breaking down trust.
Um.
So another problem I'll say onemore problem is turnover and
(10:14):
staffing shortages.
We're seeing it especially onthe claims adjusting side, but
it's really everywhere,including on the HR side.
This is creating delays inresponse times.
So the injured workers aren'tfeeling the love, they're losing
faith in both their adjusterand their employer.
And I think what makes thisproblem worse is the increased
(10:39):
sense of entitlement and urgencyamong younger generations.
That's a whole, separatesubject.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
I know, let's watch that.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yeah, you know there's, and then like one more
thing about turnover is whenthere is a lot of turnover it
doesn't allow time to formstrong trust bonds.
So it's really all a viciouscircle of mistrust.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
It sounds like most of what you're talking about.
You know it's funny when wewere talking about mistrust at
the outset.
You know, obviously I thinkwhen you think of mistrust at
least when I do within theworkers comp world I think
mistrust between the injuredworker and the insurance company
right, that's like the numberone, like oh, they're trying to
not pay me what is owed to me,right, and that's like the,
(11:24):
that's like the original line ofmistrust.
But when you brought upemployers and adjusters and
employees and employers, that tome gets a little bit deeper
into.
It seems almost like it allcomes down to communication,
into.
It seems almost like it allcomes down to communication,
right.
I mean obviously here atre-employability.
(11:46):
There's a lot of moving piecesin what we do with regards to
placing injured workers intononprofits and from a sales
perspective.
One of the things I've learnedhere is it is better to manage
expectations on the front endthan it is to try to fix things
on the back end.
So, even from a salesperspective, I would rather be
upfront and transparent to aprospective client and explain
(12:07):
to them what this really is andwhat it really isn't and let
them make the decision.
If they want to move forwardwith it, then Because I would
rather you be satisfied knowingthat and my experience has been
most people when you justcommunicate with them and say,
listen, you know, maybe not inthese words, but hey, I'm a
human being, we are imperfectpeople and this is what we can
(12:29):
do for you.
Although there may sometimes behurdles, people understand that
because it puts us all in thesame place.
Right, I am not perfect andnobody here is, and I really
like having this conversationbecause anybody hearing this
just realizes if I can just be areal human being to another
(12:50):
real human being on the outset,a lot of times that'll overcome
some of this trust.
Have you mentioned or have younoticed that a lot of this
decline in trust has it beenkind of since COVID?
It feels like COVID kind ofjust put a wrench in our machine
somehow and as we came out ofit, things just didn't boot up
properly.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (13:12):
It makes a lot of sense and absolutely I think
that trust erosion is one of thecasualties of the pandemic.
We are four plus years out fromthat first shelter in place and
I don't think people want totalk about the pandemic anymore.
It's like the elephant in theroom now.
(13:33):
But there are ongoing residualeffects in many areas of life
and one of those areas isworkers' comp and insurance.
You know, one of the increasesor one of the problems is an
increase in litigation, and whatI've seen happen is my theory
(13:55):
is that the reason why there'smore litigation now in comp is
because during the pandemic, theshelters caused many people to
be out of work, with lessworkers, there were less
injuries, so applicant attorneyfirms were losing money, they
were losing business and whenthings started opening up again,
(14:17):
they had to recoup their losses.
So they increased theirmarketing budgets and they
started telling injured people,injured workers, that they
needed to have an attorneyrepresent them in their workers'
comp claim, which is simply nottrue.
No one needs to have anattorney represent them, which
(14:38):
is simply not true.
No one needs to have anattorney represent them.
So that's one area that I thinkhas been directly impacted by
the pandemic.
Another area is remote work.
Employees who are workingremotely aren't interacting with
their managers as much.
And I know that employers havemade efforts to replace
in-person interaction withvirtual interaction, but I don't
(15:00):
think it's been consistent andit hasn't been enough.
So we know that behind a screenis impersonal and we know that
building and maintaining trustin relationships requires
regular communication andface-to-face time is always
better.
I think that more workers arefeeling isolated and social
(15:21):
disconnection can make peoplesuspicious.
I like to call it Twilight Zoneparanoia that's the name that
came up for that.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
That's awesome.
You got to copyright that and Ithink that breeds mistrust.
Yeah, it does.
One of the things we run intois, I can recall before the
pandemic, we would go into acarrier or a TPA's office and
there would be 20, 30 adjustersthere and we'd bring them lunch
and we'd do a refresher courseas to what our program is and
(15:53):
how it can better them andbetter their clients.
And we would have interaction.
And I could see the guy thatwas up in the right-hand corner
on his phone while I was doingmy presentation.
And so there's ways, as apresenter, that you can bring
people in and be more creativeand fun with your presentation
to hopefully engage people andget them to understand the
(16:15):
benefits of what you're doing.
And when you're on a Zoom call,I've done Zoom or Teams
presentations for hundreds ofpeople and you don't know if
that person is there or notbecause nobody's got their
screens on, or if they do, youknow who knows?
But nothing will ever replaceshaking somebody's hand and
introducing yourself.
(16:36):
And maybe I'm just an old guy,but I do not believe that we can
go 100% like what we're doingright now.
I would much rather be in theroom with you, debbie, having
this conversation and meetingyour folks and those things.
You're absolutely right.
I think that interaction is keyto building trust, for sure.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
One of the things that, as we lead into some other
tools that people can use tohelp build that trust.
And again, one of the thingsI've identified is you know I
can't make you trust me, but Ican do a better job at trying to
trust you better.
Right, so I can control what Ican control, and part of what I
can control is some tools that Ican do to to increase my level
(17:20):
or ability to trust other people.
And one of those things, againas we go into Thanksgiving, is
is gratitude, which, believe itor not, there are some studies
that actually show that, bydoing gratitude lists, those
types of things help you becomemore trustful to the people that
you're interacting with,whether it's family people or if
(17:42):
it's people within business.
Have you had any experiencewith gratitude and developing
trust with your clients?
Speaker 3 (17:51):
For sure, and gratitude is actually one of my
favorite things to talk about,actually one of my favorite
things to talk about.
I have a journal that I writein every day and it's one of the
first things I do in themorning.
Actually, I'm not even kidding,I have a gratitude journal and
I find that that is reallyhelpful for me, and I do think
(18:13):
that when an individual canreflect on what they're grateful
for, they can become moretrusting in general of people
and society.
You know, gratitude and trustare both positive emotions, so
naturally they will flow fromeach other in alignment.
But I also think that it'sdifficult to have gratitude for
(18:34):
something or someone if youdon't already have trust in the
system or person you were tryingto be grateful for.
So I think that building trustis a prerequisite, or at least
very important, to genuinelydeveloping a sense of gratitude.
(18:56):
Gratitude and I think that thisis the situation we are in with
the many different relationshipsand players in the workers'
comp system, all the ones we'vebeen talking about I think that
there's also prerequisites tobuilding trust.
So you know the importance ofregular interaction like we
talked about, facetime isimportant Responsiveness and
being timely and thorough inresponsiveness.
(19:16):
And then, you know, to yourpoint, setting clear and
reasonable expectations.
And I agree with youwholeheartedly, it's all about
positive communication, you know, and I think that the feelings
of gratitude and trust come withreciprocity.
I think that if I appreciateyou, chances are you probably
(19:39):
appreciate me too.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yeah, for sure, you know, and it's funny, I've tried
.
I'm going to be completelyhonest.
I have tried to do gratitudejournals in the morning.
I think my longest stretch wasmaybe two or three weeks and my
problem is that I get to a pointwhere I feel like I'm putting
the same things down all thetime and I don't get deep enough
(20:01):
into it.
And what I have found is, when alot of these things stem from
conversations, I'm so gratefulfor my dogs, because if it
weren't for my dogs, my wife andI would not take evening walks
almost every evening, right?
So when the dogs force us totake a walk together, we have
conversations, and a lot oftimes those conversations are
(20:23):
about things that we're dealingwith on a daily basis at our
work and things, and and I'llcome to her and ask her you know
, what do you think about this?
And she'll ask me what do youthink about that?
And it forces me to put myselfin the other person's shoes when
it's difficult for her to dothat, and she does the same
thing for me, and we're able tohelp give a perspective that
(20:45):
maybe neither one of us had seenfrom that other person.
So I mean, I'm super gratefulfor that.
And it's those little thingsthat when I'm sitting down to
make my gratitude list that I'mgoing, you know, maybe I need to
sit back a little bit more andrealize those little things on a
daily basis that really impactwhat your outlook and
(21:06):
perspective is for the rest ofthe day.
Right, what are talk a littlebit about some.
So obviously you're interactingwith employers and you're kind
of that.
You're kind of the bridge orthe glue between the employer
and the carriers and TPAs.
Are you actively involved inbrokering peace or brokering
(21:29):
trust or helping othersunderstand the perspectives of
the other party?
How does that work with whatyou do?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Well, first of all, I really like that term or phrase
broker of trust, broker ofpeace.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
There you go.
I'm going to go ahead and I'mgoing to take that one, yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
So for sure on all sides.
And I really do think it startswith respect, recognizing our
shared humanity it sounds kindof goofy but I think it's really
true and then positivecommunication.
And you can't really have thatwithout having the respect and
(22:10):
the shared humanity concept andall of that, the shared humanity
concept and all of that.
And then it's clearcommunication.
I think that kind and clearcommunication is the key.
Let's see some of my tips andtricks around building better
communication and trust.
I think education is a big oneand at Woodruff Sawyer we do a
(22:34):
Workers' Comp 101 presentationcovering the basics for our
clients, at least annually.
Sometimes we do that more often.
We also hold webinars onspecific topics like legislative
changes, those things.
We try to make education andinformation a part of our claim
(22:55):
reviews, where we're not justtalking about the status of
individual claims, we'reclarifying general legal issues
and processes.
We're clarifying understandingsof our clients and what we need
to clarify more for them,giving realistic estimates for
(23:15):
certain actions to be completed.
You know people need to knowthat workers' comp isn't a
bullet train.
It's more like a slow kiddietrain zigzagging along through
the park and it's not a greatthing, but it's our reality and
we have to accept that and dothe best we can.
(23:37):
It takes time for injuredworkers to get medical
appointments set up, it takestime to get the reports back
from the physicians and it takestime for the work comp boards
to schedule hearings and approvesettlements.
(24:04):
So again, all we can do is takecontrol of what we can and be as
proactive as we can, and Ithink that education and
information do help createrealistic expectations, which
then builds trust possible.
I am honest with my clientsabout options and strategies.
If a client makes a request andI don't see the request as
reasonable, I will tell them soand I'll explain why.
You know we're not here tosugarcoat and tell people what
(24:26):
they want to hear or makepromises that can't be kept In
the long run.
That won't go well for anybodyand it's just going to break
down trust In the long run.
That won't go well for anybodyand it's just going to break
down trust.
So I think that people wanthonesty, even when it's not the
answer that they're looking for.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Yeah, and I think I'll add on to that.
I think asking really, reallygood questions is key in helping
to develop that as well.
Not only does it help you tobetter understand the position
of the person that you'retalking to, it also shows
empathy and it shows that youcare and that you want to know
more.
(25:03):
And it's super, super important,even if you're an adjuster and
you work with a lot ofconstruction companies and
you've heard it all from everyconstruction company before.
Right, ask the questions, evenif you think you're going to
know the answer, because chancesare, every once in a while
there's going to be somethingnew that kind of piques your
interest.
And if you can ask thatquestion and repeat the answer
(25:23):
back and dig a little bit deeper, it shows your client, it shows
the injured worker, it showsthe doctor that you are paying
attention and that you do careabout their needs, and then
you're going to do what you cando to meet those needs.
Even if you're not going to beable to provide everything that
they want, at least you'reshowing empathy and transparency
(25:44):
and care.
And it sounds so easy, but itcomes down to one human being
talking to another human beingand being grateful for the
opportunity that we have toserve each other.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
And.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
I think that as brokers and consultants, we need
to be leaders and role models,and we're the ones who are
setting the tone in meetings andinteractions.
So the better the relationshipbetween the employer and their
carrier from the beginning andthe more trust established early
on, the less likelydisagreements will occur.
(26:20):
So I think we as consultantsare in a position to nurture
these positive relationships.
And definitely back to yourpoint about just checking in
making sure everybodyunderstands and is on the same
page and you know, seeing whatneeds to be clarified, what
(26:41):
information people still need,what questions do people still
have, and seeking to answerthose questions.
I think we move so quicklythrough claim reviews.
It's all rapid fire, it's a lotof abbreviation and lingo and
we're not checking forunderstanding as often as maybe
we used to in the past and asoften as we should.
(27:03):
Those things are very importantand soliciting feedback from
people to make sure their voicesare heard and do they have any
special requests that can beaccommodated.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Yep, little things make such a big difference.
Debbie, if anybody's listeningthat has further questions or
would want to get in touch withyou, what's the best way to do
that?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
People can email me at dhammer, at woodruffsawyercom
or my number 415-878-2476.
And you can always Google us onWoodruff Sawyer and find us
there.
Terrific.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
I'm going to put the links to some of these studies
that I found that kind of relategratitude with building trust,
If anybody's interested inlooking at it.
It's interesting stuff and it'sthings that we can control, and
that's what I love, becausethere's a lot of things I can't.
So, Debbie, it's been really,really nice to talk to you again
(28:06):
.
Let's not go two years.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Definitely we need more frequent interaction.
Todd.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yes, for sure, for sure, and you have a great
Thanksgiving.
It was nice to see you again.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Thank you so much.
You too, todd, take care.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Alexa, what's your favorite thing to do on
Thanksgiving?
Speaker 1 (28:26):
I can't eat or drink, but I'm happy to serve up a
plate of food jokes for you.
One time I ate a rainbow.
It was delicious but light.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Thanks for listening to REA Audio.
Please make sure to follow uson Spotify or Apple Podcasts or
Stitcher or wherever you getyour podcasts.
We appreciate you.
Have a great rest of your week.
We'll see you next time.
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