November 27, 2024 • 50 mins
Discover how to turn every workplace interaction into a moment of growth and connection with insights from our esteemed guests, Jackie Stavros and Sherry Torres. These renowned authors of "Conversations Worth Having" share the keys to transforming the way we communicate at work by adopting appreciative inquiry. Learn how to tune into your mindset and lead conversations that positively impact relationships and even our brain function. Jackie and Sherry provide actionable strategies to ensure your conversations are above the line—appreciative and constructive—propelling your team towards success.
Ever wondered how to stop venting and start solving? We dive into techniques to shift from unproductive complaining to constructive discussions. Using tools like generative questions and positive framing, we guide you in transforming dissatisfaction into solution-oriented thinking. Visualizing issues can make them more manageable, and our guests share how recalling past positive experiences can influence future interactions. These approaches promise to enhance workplace satisfaction and foster more meaningful, productive relationships.
For those navigating conversations during challenging times, this episode offers wisdom on framing dialogues for positive outcomes. We emphasize how crucial constructive conversations are, especially in educational settings during the pandemic. Plus, Jackie and Sherry open up about their favorite books and the significance of listening to emerging voices in the workplace. As an added bonus, explore the transformative potential of conversation boot camps that retrain the brain for effective communication. Don’t miss this jam-packed episode filled with practical advice and resources for HR professionals eager to revolutionize workplace dialogue.
Rebel HR is a podcast for HR professionals and leaders of people who are ready to make some disruption in the world of work. Please connect to continue the conversation!
https://twitter.com/rebelhrguy
https://www.facebook.com/rebelhrpodcast
http://www.kyleroed.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-roed/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What we have found with organizations where many
people have either read the bookor attended our boot camps is
there's some pretty simplelanguage that people pick up on
and they use with each other allthe time.
When people have these commonwords or languages that trigger
a meta level, it takes the focusoff the person as being wrong
(00:20):
or guilty or less than or badfor being below the line, and
instead it's like no, you'vejust been completely hijacked
neurophysiologically, but we canundo that and you can undo that
.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast where we
talk to HR innovators about allthings people, leadership.
If you're looking for places tofind, about new ways to think
about the world of work, this isthe podcast for you.
Please subscribe to yourfavorite podcast listening
platform today and leave us areview.
(00:52):
Rebel on HR.
Rebels Rebel HR listeners.
Thanks for joining us this week.
I'm really excited for theconversation.
This is all about conversations,which is basically HR's job, so
I'm really excited to have theconversation today with Jackie
Stavros and Sherry Torres.
They have written a book andreleased a second edition called
(01:14):
Conversations Worth Havingusing appreciative inquiry to
fuel productive and meaningfulengagement.
Jackie is a professor at theCollege of Business and IT,
lawrence TechnologicalUniversity and Appreciative
Inquiry Advisor at the David LCooper Rider Center for
Appreciative Inquiry.
She has more than 30 years ofleadership, strategic planning
(01:37):
and change management experience.
Sherry is CEO and lead catalystof Collaborative by Design, a
consulting firm that helpsorganizations improve
performance, retain talent andtransform communication and
culture, with more than 35 yearsof leadership, teamwork,
strategic planning and culturetransformation experience.
(01:57):
Thanks for joining us this week.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Thank you so much, thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Well, I'm really excited to start to dig in here,
and you know, I think, what aperfect topic conversations
worth having which is, you know,basically what we do all day
long is have some sort ofconversation.
So making sure that they areconversations that we should be
having or are worth having seemslike a pretty interesting topic
(02:23):
for us here at Rebel HumanResources.
So why don't we start off?
I'd just like to understandwhat prompted the interest in
Conversations Worth Having.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Jackie and I.
We've known each other forquite a while over 20 years and
we wrote our first book together, Dynamic Relationships, back in
2005, with a goal of bringingappreciative inquiry to the
general public, so they coulduse that approach to life, that
(03:09):
approach to life, and we decidedto do an update 10 years later
and realized that our thinkinghad completely changed, and so
we wrote a completely differentbook and we started out with a
focus on relationships, becausethat is really at the core of
everything we do also.
But working with our editor atBarrett Kohler, who kept pushing
back on us to simplify it,simplified it.
(03:30):
We really want people to do it.
It has to be simple.
We finally realized oh, this isabout our conversations.
How can we do our conversationsso they create the kinds of
relationships and practices sothat we can live our best lives
and be successful?
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Yeah, I would just add to that that, if you're
listening, think about how muchof your awaking hours you are
having a conversation withyourself, with others, whether
it's on media platforms, emails,social media.
We get people to say anywherefrom 90 to 110% of the time
(04:12):
they're having conversations.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Absolutely, you know, I think about that.
You know conversation ingeneral.
You know and I said this beforewe hit record you know that's
just what we do.
You know, in human resources,we're all about, you know, we're
all about the people right, andin order to impact and
influence people, you haveconversations with them, but I
feel like so often we get hungup on.
(04:38):
You know the tool that we useto have a conversation.
So is it, you know, is it email?
Is it virtual?
Is it video?
Is it?
Is it phone call?
Is it?
You know, face to face, um, asopposed to the, the content or
the, you know the conversationsthat we actually need to be
having.
So, so, as you, as you approachthe book, and as you, you know,
(05:01):
started to dig into uh, maybe alittle bit what sounds like a
mindset shift and started tofocus on this where do we start?
By figuring out, where shouldmy energy, where should my
conversations be focused, andhow do I prioritize the
(05:21):
conversations that are worthhaving versus, maybe, those that
aren't?
Speaker 3 (05:29):
So where do you start ?
That's a great question andthat's what brought us to the
second edition of the book isit's called Tuning In and if you
would, just you know, if youjust learn to tune in, which is,
you know, pause, take a deepbreath and get curious and ask
yourself before which of thoseconversations, where am I?
(05:49):
And imagine you had thisimaginary line, and above the
line is appreciative, you're ina space where I value you, I
value the situation, even ifit's a difficult person or a
difficult situation.
But you want to be coming fromabove the line, which are
affirmative conversations,conversations worth having.
(06:11):
And if you're below the line,you're in that depreciative,
that protect mode and yourconversations are going to be
maybe, perhaps critical ordestructive.
And you're below the line andyou don't want to be entering
conversations from below theline.
So just the technique ofpausing, taking a deep breath
(06:34):
and getting curious and askyourself where am I?
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Hmm, yeah, my head is racing and you, we've got
something coming at us seeminglyevery week.
What tactics can we use to beaware of that line and to really
inform how we approach makingsure that we are having
(07:27):
conversations worth having?
Speaker 1 (07:31):
I think they're kind of twofold recognize that our
conversations and the words thatwe use are actually deeply
(07:51):
influential and they have animpact on our neurophysiology
when we say them and theneurophysiology of people that
hear them.
And we can either throwsomebody into a state of protect
um, the defenses come up and,um, if people are feeling
criticized or like they might belike thrown out of the group,
(08:16):
which, um, from a uh, aconditioning point of view,
means we think we're going todie, that what happens just in
our nervous system is thesympathetic nervous system kicks
in.
We get a dump of cortisol,adrenaline, testosterone,
(08:42):
epinephrine dumped into oursystems and we move into a place
of fight or flight.
When we're in that place, wecan't access higher order
thinking, we can't access ouremotional intelligence, our
centers of empathy, we can'taccess creativity, because all
(09:04):
we're worried about even ourvision gets tunnel vision.
And so, if we want the best outof one another, the way we
engage with each other iscritical.
And when we have conversations,as Jackie was mentioning, above
the line, whether where we arevaluing others or we are adding
(09:25):
value through our questions andour comments, we actually create
a sense of safety, andpsychological safety is really
big in the workplace these daysand the reason is that when we
feel psychologically safe, we'vegot a whole different set of
neurotransmitters dumping intoour nervous system.
(09:47):
Parasympathetic nervous systemgoes into effect.
We relax, our brain opens up,we have access to the prefrontal
cortex, to the ability toconnect, to have empathy, to
access emotional intelligence.
Those are all the things wewant people to have in our
organizations If we wantinnovation and creativity and
(10:09):
engagement and connection.
We've got to recognize that wehave an immense amount of power
in making that possible, just bythe way we engage with people
using words the way we engagewith people using words,
(10:29):
absolutely you know.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
I don't know if I can pinpoint the exact moment where
I figured that out, but Iremember, you know, vividly,
early in my HR career, that youknow the words, the selection of
words, the timing of words, theattempt to you know, engage
somebody in a conversation atthe wrong time made a huge
(10:53):
impact on the outcome.
And I remember at one point Iwent home to my wife and it was
a rough day and I was like Ikind of had a light bulb moment
where I was like wow, and Irealized that just a couple of
the words that weremisinterpreted really screwed
things up today and I spent mostof my day unpacking the words
(11:18):
that were misinterpreted to thepeople that misinterpreted them.
And then you know, and it's it.
Um, you know whether that wasbecause I was below the line or
that person was, you know, wasnot ready to hear it.
Either way it was.
It was a situation of, ofignorance, of of not thinking
through how will this beperceived?
How?
How is this timing going to?
(11:41):
How is this timing going tooccur?
And the funny thing was theentire context of that day was I
was trying to be efficient.
I was trying to get things donequickly.
Yes, so I'm just going to saythis.
And then it blew up in my faceand made me spend all day
dealing with it.
(12:01):
So I'm walking through all thethings I've done wrong now.
So, as we approach these typesof things, especially in HR,
psychological safety is notstrong.
How do we work through that andhow do we kind of, you know,
(12:31):
tiptoe into those conversations?
Ultimately, to you know, try toresolve the situation?
Speaker 3 (12:38):
That's a great question, kyle.
You know, one thing comes to mymind, because we're all going
to fall below the line.
We're humans and we talk aboutthis in the book, but when you
know you're below the line, youcan feel it.
If you have a smartwatch on,it'll tell you by your blood
pressure or your heart rate, andwhen you pause, breathe and get
(13:00):
curious, you can ask the otherperson let's do this over.
It's called a do over, and whenyou begin to go above the line
and we had mentionedappreciative inquiry
appreciative inquiry is askingwhat would you like more?
What would you like to seehappen?
What is it you'd like to talkabout?
Because people usually come inwith their problems, what they
(13:21):
don't like, what they don't wantto talk about, like to talk
about because people usuallycome in with their problems what
they don't like, what theydon't want to talk about.
And that's where you need to,through your questions as one of
the practices, generativequestions or framing really
begin to talk about.
What would you like to seehappen?
What would you like to talkabout today?
What do you want to see more of?
Speaker 2 (13:40):
So when you're asking those types of questions, is
that kind of flipping the switchin the brain to go away from
kind of that I don't know whatthe right word is for it like
almost that animalistic fight orflight, you know, kind of
aggressiveness, into kind of thehigher level self kind of the
(14:04):
higher level self.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Yes, yes, and that's where the science is behind it,
because a generative questioncan create that frame, that
positive frame, by just askingthe questions.
And sometimes you have to askthe same question three times,
because the person's in such adisconnect, protect mode that
you know how do you see it andthey may give you a funny look
let's talk about what you'd like.
And so sometimes asking agenerative, the same generative
(14:26):
question two or three times,they begin to relax, they begin
to open up and they want toengage in a conversation worth
having with you.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
And sometimes they just want to be heard first, and
so asking the question thatsays, you know, tell me what's
going on, what's what ishappening, how's it impacting
your ability to work, and thenmoving to Okay, what do you need
or what would you like to havehappen, can be highly effective.
Often, being seen and heard isenough to shift somebody to
(15:03):
being ready to move to somethingelse, as opposed to being
dismissed or stopped.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Absolutely.
I think you know that's areally powerful tool, and don't
ask me where I heard this, butyou know.
The question I like to ask isso what does good look like for
you?
You know, or you know somethingalong those lines, right, and a
lot of times you're like, well,I don't ask me where I, where I
heard this, but you know.
The question I like to ask isso what does good look like for
you?
You know, or or you knowsomething along those lines,
right, and a lot of times you'relike, well, I don't, I don't
know, I, you know, I just, I'mjust you're supposed to tell me
(15:33):
what you know, you're supposedto tell me how to fix, but it's,
you know.
A lot of times, you know I havealso learned this through.
You know trial and error.
That you know.
I assume that I understand whatsomebody actually wants me to do
and I'm just flat out wrong,and you know, and sometimes I'm
unequipped to even help themwith that, and it's really about
(15:55):
making sure they're connectedto the right resources that can
actually help them.
So one of the things I wanted toask and I'm sure my listeners
are probably feeling this,especially as we go through
we're recording this.
In January there's a COVIDspike, there's all sorts of
questions around work from home,there's wage inflation, like
there's all sorts of thingscoming at HR right now.
(16:16):
I guarantee you that many of usare dealing with people who
just want to vent and a lot oftimes HR's office can kind of
turn into what I call.
It's like the school counselorright, where you just you walk
into the office and people justkind of sit down and they just
start to complain.
And while I want to help peoplehave good relationships and
(16:41):
connections at work and I thinkmost HR people are fairly
empathetic and want to helppeople solve their problems A
lot of times those conversationsare draining and really don't
resolve much.
So as, as we're dealing withthose types of interactions or
maybe maybe that's what you knowpeople assume HR should be how
(17:03):
can we take those types ofinteractions and make them
conversations worth having?
Speaker 1 (17:10):
So I think one of the and this is one of the
practices from our book thefirst one Jackie spoke about a
little bit was generativequestions.
The second one is using apositive frame.
Um, the second one is using apositive frame and so listening
long enough to the person who'sventing to get an idea of what
the nature of the problem isthat they're wanting to vent
(17:31):
about, and perhaps even askingquestions to get it, to make
sure it's clear, and, and youknow, putting yourself in the
place instead of in like, oh,here, here they come again,
they're going to vent.
That puts you below the line.
And now both of you are belowthe line to move into that space
(17:53):
of how can I support thisperson in helping to solve their
own problem or help them to getclear on what it is that they
want.
So flip it around in your ownmind to a challenge to create
help the person, create apositive frame for what they are
(18:13):
wanting.
And then to ask enough questionsof to get clear on what the
problem, the nature of theproblem is, then flip it to the
positive opposite.
So if somebody comes in umventing about, uh, their boss,
for example, never have.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
They don't listen.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Yeah, they don't listen to me, they don't care
about who I am.
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
And take you know, take notes,write that down.
If you have a whiteboard, writeit up there so the person can
actually see the problem they'redescribing.
And when you've got it all upthere, to finally say, okay, so
this is what the problem isright, and get them to say, yes,
(18:58):
that's it.
Now they feel heard.
And you could flip it to thepositive opposite.
Say, okay, if the positiveopposite of that were true, if
your boss listened to you andtruly valued you, and write all
that up in the second column.
If that were true, what wouldbe the outcome for you?
What would that be like?
(19:19):
What would your workenvironment be like?
What would your relationship belike?
And in that third column thenwrite down that positive frame.
This is where the person iswanting to go.
They want a good relationship,they want to be heard and valued
, and then you can be in aconversation with them around.
(19:42):
You know, even asking this is astandard appreciative inquiry
question.
Has there ever been a time whenyou have felt valued by your
boss and your boss listened toyou?
Oh yeah, about nine months ago,when.
And then they describe it?
What?
What were the conditions thatmade that possible?
Would you value about yourselfand your boss?
(20:03):
How can you and your boss beginto recreate those things?
And then do you want to trythis on your own?
How could you have aconversation with your boss
about that?
Do you want to have aconversation with me and your
boss and you?
But now you've listened,they've vented, but they're now
(20:23):
moving in a different direction.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
That's great advice.
I'm thinking, geez, I don'thave a whiteboard.
But putting that visualquestion on that whiteboard and
then confronting that questionas opposed to letting the
meandering venting occur, andthen you know what happened
seven years ago, I mean, I'mstill not over it.
(20:49):
It's like, okay, all right,there's a statute of limitations
at a certain point, right.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Seven years there is yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
So you know, it's really an interesting technique
and I can see how that couldprompt some actual solutions.
What about a situation wherethe person won't get there?
(21:19):
Get there, like, like it's justthey're so far below that line
that they truly are in a, in areally dark place, or there's a,
um, you know, there there'smaybe a point where there's
there's not going to be aproductive conversation.
You know, should we just sitthere until it ends?
(21:39):
Should we, you know, end theconversation?
What kind of tactics do yourecommend for those types of you
know situations?
Speaker 4 (21:51):
We'll be back after a quick break.
If you're a private practiceowner, here's why you want to
hire virtual assistants.
Virtual assistants not only canperform all of the non-clinical
responsibilities by supportingor replacing your current team,
but they can do it at a fractionof the cost, all while
improving the patient careexperience.
Virtual Rockstar was createdfor private practice owners by a
(22:14):
private practice owner whowants to help you gain greater
profitability and freedom.
We'll teach you how to workwith virtual assistants, all
while helping bring a family outof poverty.
Visit wwwvirtualrockstarcomtoday to learn more and book
your free discovery call atwwwvirtualrockstarcom.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
There's one suggestion that I would make,
and especially if it's alreadybeen going on if you've tried to
flip it, they won't flip,they're just stuck down below
(23:05):
just for a minute and let's takea look at what's going on at
kind of the meta level for youright now in terms of your
ability to access your owncreative potential and your own
best self, in terms of beingable even to identify what is it
that I want.
And I would bump up to the metalevel of saying here's what's
going on neurophysiologically,as you keep going over this and
over this and you're going tomove yourself further and
(23:29):
further and further away fromthe ability for you to find any
answers.
And if that's what you want tokeep doing, then go for it.
But if you want out of thatcycle so that you can reach your
own full potential, then I amdelighted to help you work
(23:52):
through that.
But we've got to get somedifferent neurotransmitters
going, so it takes the focus off.
You're wrong or you're.
You know.
The reason you're so far downbelow the line is because you've
had this huge dump of cortisoland testosterone and it's
flooded your system and we canswitch that.
(24:14):
And what we have found withorganizations, where many people
have either read the book orattended our boot camps, is
there's some pretty simplelanguage that people pick up on
and they use with each other allthe time, like, oh my goodness,
I am so far below the line.
What can I do to help you getabove the line?
Or wait a minute, wait, let'sstop for a minute.
(24:37):
Let's just name what are wedealing with.
What's the issue here?
Let's name it.
What are we dealing with?
What's the issue here?
Let's name it.
And so, when people have thesecommon words or languages that
trigger a meta level, it takesthe focus off the person as
(24:58):
being wrong or guilty or lessthan or bad for being below the
line, and instead it's like no,you've just been completely
hijacked neurophysiologically,but we can undo that, and you
can undo that.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
And adding to what Sherry said is sometimes it's
things you are unaware of.
It could be the person's notsleeping enough, they're not
hydrated enough.
There can be physiologicalthings that have put you below
the line before words even putyou below the line and you know.
Maybe they need a mental healthday.
Maybe you know it's simple asdrinking more water.
(25:27):
Certain things in your bodypull you below the line before
you've entered a conversation.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Or as my kids might say you know, dad needs to eat.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Yes, your blood sugar levels up yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Wait.
Let me just add one other thingto that, because what that
triggered for me is, whensomebody keeps going on and on
like that, it might be the timeto just pause and say what's
really going on for you, becauseit may have nothing to do with
the fact that they're railing uphere, but their partner is
(26:02):
threatening to leave them, oryou know, yeah, yeah.
Or they're overwhelmed becauseof COVID and filled with anxiety
, and or they've decided thisisn't the place for me to go and
I don't know where else to go.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
This episode is brought to you by Namely.
With workforces continuing toevolve, it's more important than
ever to keep in pace with thenature of business, but it can
be even harder to stay ahead andkeep employees connected and
engaged.
That's why you need Namely, theall-in-one HR solution that
offers everything you need toset you up for success in the
new year, so you can tackle anycurveballs that 2022 throws your
(26:39):
way.
Namely helps you easily adaptto the ever-changing workplace
and maintain a great employeeexperience, whether you have 50
or 1,000 employees, withonboarding, performance
management and intuitivebenefits enrollment all in one
connected and modern platform.
Plus, namely can streamlineyour payroll, time, tracking and
vacation requests.
So you can be everyone'sfavorite rebel HR leader, no
(27:03):
matter how your company grows.
Companies are built on people.
Don't let either fail.
Stay ahead and learn more aboutmaking the switch to Namely
Namelycom.
Don't wait, that's Namelycom.
Those are all wonderful pointsand I'm reflecting on, you know,
interactions that I've had overthe last, especially over the
last few years.
(27:24):
There's a lot of that emotion,you know, and I feel like you
know, pick a topic right.
If you just go to pick a newsline, you know a headline news
and you know you're gonna.
You're gonna find somethingwhere somebody's below the line
or something's going on that'screating some of that external
stress that could be tricklinginto the workplace.
(27:45):
But one of the things I'mcontinuing to, I'm picking up on
this and, as I've mentioned, Iwouldn't consider myself the
best at all of these things, butI am hearing that one of the
common themes here is it's notabout necessarily saying the
right thing, it's aboutlistening and responding to what
(28:05):
somebody needs in that moment.
Am I on the right track here?
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Spot on.
And Kyle, you mentioned earlier, when you find yourself
assuming, go to asking.
So when you are assumingsomething about somebody or
something, just start to ask.
And if you ask these generativequestions that are leaning in
and you really care and they'reopen-ended, you're going to
(28:30):
learn more about the otherperson.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Absolutely yeah, and I think you know we get caught
in, and I think that's not justHR.
The corporate world gets caughtup in thinking, well, what's
the right thing to say, or what?
You know, how do we, how do wespin this correctly?
You know and and and, asopposed to actually just just
taking a pause and listening andand responding with
(28:58):
authenticity and and and alittle bit.
You know just humanity, right?
I mean you know meeting peoplewhere they're at, because if you
don't do that, I mean they'llpick up on it, right.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Yeah, yeah, just showing that you care.
I mean, if you start thereabout I, I'm, I care, and if you
don't know what to say, justsaying, say that you know.
I don't know what to say and Iwant to support you.
How can I?
Speaker 3 (29:33):
What can I do?
Yeah, genuine connection andalso, sherry's, really modeling.
And I hear it in your voice too, kyle Tone and direction you
want.
You know, people know when youcome at them with a critical
tone that they can't even listento what you're saying.
But they know, just the tone ofyour voice shuts them down,
even if you're trying to help.
So having a tone that is muchmore appreciative and calming
(29:54):
when you're in a difficultsituation is going to begin to
open up and help that personconnect to you.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
It's going to begin to open up and help that person
connect to you.
Yeah, it's funny you mentionedthat because you know, one of
the challenges I think that Ifaced early in my career was I
was trying to be HR.
You know, I was trying to bewhat I thought HR should be, or
(30:24):
I was trying to be what Ithought a business leader or a
manager should be, and what thatdid is it prompted me to
essentially flip a switch andbecome just pure logic, like
binary, like, you know, noemotion.
How can I help you?
You know, do this, do that.
You should do this.
You should do that.
This is the policy.
You should do this.
This is the rule.
(30:44):
You should do that.
This person's you superior.
You need to go to them first.
You know those kinds of likethat level of thinking, and it
took me a number of years torealize that the connection, the
humanity, the actual, therichness of the conversation,
the richness of the relationshipmatters a whole lot more than
the content of you reading froma handbook.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
So absolutely, just just, wonderful content and, I
think, something that that wecan all, can all you know, learn
from.
And and you know, I would justask, you know, my listeners, to
think about.
You know, reflect on thosetimes where where you've had a
bad interaction and ask yourselfwas I above or below the line
in that interaction?
And the next time you start tohave a bad interaction, ask
(31:30):
yourself where is that lineright now?
Speaker 1 (31:34):
And also ask either what story did I make up about
the other person and could adifferent story have explained
the same facts?
And how do I know what the realstory was, if I don't ask
questions?
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Absolutely.
I mean, I love stories, you know, and I'm really good at
creating that picture in my headabout why this person is mad,
or what this person should do orwhat happened in that situation
, without actually evenunderstanding what actually
happened.
And when you confront that, yourealize, oh, this is just a bias
(32:13):
, like this is, I'm justreacting because of something
that happened this way, howevermany years ago, or in a similar
situation, et cetera.
So one of the things I want totalk about a little bit as it
relates to conversations is thestories that we tell ourselves
(32:34):
and believe coming into theworkplace.
And what I'm really talkingabout is some of the
polarization that we see in oursociety today, where somebody
believes this about masks,somebody believes this about
vaccines, somebody believes thisabout the president, somebody
believes this about the pastpresident, and it's just there's
(32:54):
a lot of that kind of noisethat has trickled into the
workplace certainly has not madeour job any easier.
So, as we're confronting peoplewho are believing their version
of a story and there's maybesome conflict or some challenges
(33:14):
in the workplace as it relatesto those types of conversations,
how can we help to mediate thator kind of try to reduce some
of that polarization in theworkplace through conversations.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Oh boy, that is a big question, I think, when being
(33:48):
in the workplace under COVIDscenarios can raise all sorts of
anxieties for people, no matterwhat side of anything you're on
.
I think again being able to haveconversations that move away
from people's belief systems andthe strengths that they bring
(34:09):
to the workplace.
How do we work together?
There's a colleague of ourswho's a jazz musician.
A colleague of ours who's a jazzmusician, and when he talks
about bringing these, thepractices, into everyday living
in an organization, he equatesit to improvisational jazz and
(34:35):
he says I don't have to likeevery jazz musician, I just have
to be able to trust that theyknow how to play their notes, to
riff when everybody riffs, thatthey will be part of the thing
(34:56):
we are trying to do together.
And if they're an excellentmusician, I don't care whether I
like them or not or ever hangout outside the office, but I
can love performing with thembecause they're really good at
what they do.
And so, perhaps, focusing onwhat are the strengths each
person brings to the team andhow do we access that in the
(35:18):
best ways that we can, beinghuman with each other and let
the stuff that we're polarizedabout, um, fall away, that might
be one, one approach, and Iguess it also depends on whether
somebody wants to keep harpingon it and they want.
Um, you know there's a lot ofjuice that comes out of stirring
(35:43):
the pot and the pot getsstirred every day by the media.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
I would add to what Sherry's saying.
So we're talking about askingthese generative questions.
Make room for diverse anddifferent perspectives.
You know how do you see it.
Why do you see it that way?
It can surface new knowledge init.
Where are you getting yourinformation, your knowledge?
So we're really having aconversation because we're
polarized.
(36:10):
But why are we this way?
Where are you getting yourinformation?
And just beginning to share it,even though we may still, at
the end of the conversation, goback to I'm not going to wear a
mask and I am going to wear amask, especially if there's no
policy in the workplace aboutwhen you wear a mask or don't
wear a mask, then you're kind offiguring it out.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yeah, it's a.
It's a.
It's definitely a tough one.
It's something that you know.
There's certainly been divisionin the workplace.
I've had, you know, I've haddifferent levels of interactions
over the years.
I don't know that it'snecessarily anything new.
It certainly seems morepronounced.
Um, you know just, and I thinkyou know my, my theory, there is
(36:58):
it's everybody's under duressright now and there's so much
stress in people's lives andtheir personal lives that it's
kind of trickling into theworkplace.
And I'll be honest, one of thechallenges that we've had is
politics at work.
(37:18):
It's always kind of been one ofthose things where, you know,
we just don't talk about thatstuff at work, Right, you know,
and that's that's kind of the,the school of thought that I was
, I was certainly raised in, butit's almost impossible not to
(37:38):
have that at work at this point,because if create our own
stories in our heads about whatsomebody believes or what they
think and why, it's a lot harderto actually engage them in a
conversation that couldpotentially prompt some conflict
.
So in a conversation worthhaving, is conflict inevitable?
(38:02):
Is that going to happen?
Speaker 3 (38:05):
You know I'm going to give a very specific example,
if I may.
You know I work at a universityand there's a policy of when
students can come to class andgo on Zoom and think about it at
work.
When you can have a virtualmeeting or come to work and the
policy says if you go throughthe dean of student services and
you have COVID or you're inquarantine, you can use Zoom.
(38:26):
And the conflict is well, whatif I can't get tested and I'm
not feeling well?
Can I come in virtually and Ihaven't been able to get to the?
You know things start creepingup because this is the first
time we've had a policy likethis.
So I think you have to bewilling to, as a manager, be a
little bit flexible with newpolicies that are written and we
(38:47):
haven't fully experienced them.
So, with me and my students, Icome up with the sub policy that
you can.
I will put you on Zoom, promisethat you will go to the Dean of
Student Services, but I wantyou to come and learn.
That's my goal and I don't wantyou to take advantage of it.
Same thing in the workplaceSomebody wants to stay at home
(39:08):
versus coming in, but theyhaven't gotten their COVID test
or whatever, is beginning totrust your employees to say all
right, what we really need isyou in this meeting.
Let's get you on the platformand then we will deal with some
of the surrounding issues aroundthat, because it's this very
new territory for everybody inthe world.
Dealing with the pandemic andthink about framing.
(39:33):
What do we really want tohappen here?
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Again, it's interesting because you went
right back to what's the goal,and your goal was to make sure
that they had a good learningenvironment.
Right, and by defining that youknow, it completely changes the
narrative from we're trying tocontrol what you do to here's
the goal of what we're trying todo here, which is very
(39:57):
different.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
Yeah, yes.
And the conflict occurs becauseI read a policy, some people
will read it.
Nope, you can't learn.
I don't have anything from thedean, you're not in class and
you're not learning.
And another professor will say,well, no, I'll put you on Zoom,
but then let's figure out howto follow this policy.
Go to that framing of what doyou?
We really want you to be ableto learn in a safe environment
(40:24):
and having that conversation andbuilding trust with the
employee or the student, whichremoves the focus off the
behavior and on to the desiredoutcome, and then people don't
have to be, they don't have tobe forced to be polarized
(40:44):
because of that.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Instead of trying to convince people of something,
it's finding out.
How do we make this work with avariety of different viewpoints
?
Speaker 2 (40:58):
Absolutely.
And where are we at, when isour line right when we try to do
that?
Yeah, revised second edition isyou do have a technique to
(41:22):
prime ourselves for aconversation with having.
So can you expand upon the kindof what that technique looks
like a little bit?
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Sure, it's pretty simple, just like the two simple
practices of generativequestions and positive framing,
priming yourself is to firstpause, then to breathe and then
to get curious.
And the reason this simpletechnique works is that when you
pause, it interrupts yourpattern.
(41:51):
So, whatever the pattern yourreactive pattern is, when you
pause it interrupts that.
That can stop the flow of thosestress hormones.
When you take a deep breath, ortwo or three, it kicks in the
parasympathetic nervous system,which further relaxes your
nervous system and begins toopen up your ability to access
(42:15):
the higher order centers of thebrain.
And then, when you get curious,curiosity is a positive emotion
and positive emotions throw youinto the prefrontal lobe and
the neocortex.
And so now, just those threesimple steps.
Now you have shifted your brainchemistry to the point where
(42:40):
you can be more open and connectwith people and access your
centers of empathy.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
It's that simple.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Yeah, that's.
You know it sounds simple, butit's not easy, right, right,
Especially when you're alreadybelow the line.
I'm gonna start using that now.
So now, below the line, youguys should trademark that
because, seriously, but, um, Imean, I, I, I.
What I love about this approachand what I think is really
(43:15):
fascinating about this book isit's this isn't just the squishy
HR stuff.
You know, there there is hardscience behind this and there's
so much about the brain thatwe're still learning.
But you know, if our job in anorganization as leaders and
human resources, and you knowpeople who are trying to
motivate others, you know, if wedon't try to understand the
(43:38):
brain and how people think andwe're trying to move an
organization and people, youknow it would serve us well to
understand why people's behavioris the way it is, or why the
brain works the way it does.
And you know, I mean to me thatjust makes perfect logical
sense so that we can achievethose goals that we're trying to
(44:00):
achieve.
So I love that approach.
So, okay, pause, breathe,curious, got it?
It's only three words I think Ican remember Perfect.
Well, this has been just anabsolutely wonderful
conversation.
I feel like we're just startingto warm up, but I'm going to
leave that there and for all ofour listeners, you know, I would
(44:20):
encourage you to learn more.
Pick up the book, the secondedition of Conversations Worth
Having Using AppreciativeInquiry to Fuel Productive and
Meaningful Engagement.
Check it out.
We'll have those links in theshow notes.
You can click right in thereand check out the book.
But there's so much more tolearn and unpack With that.
(44:40):
I want to shift gears and we'regoing to go into the flash
round, so I'm going to ask bothof you I will start with you,
jackie what is your favoritepeople book?
Speaker 3 (44:54):
My favorite people book.
It's actually one that Sherryrecommended to me and it's
called the Four Agreements onethat Sherry recommended to me
and it's called the FourAgreements, and that's probably
my go-to book, and if you everread the Four Agreements and you
don't get past the inside frontcover, it gives you the Four
Agreements.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Cliff notes.
I like it All right, perfect,sherry.
What is your favorite peoplebook?
Speaker 1 (45:18):
Mine changes depending upon what I've been
most recently reading, and rightnow Adam Grant's book Think
Again is my most favorite peoplebook.
I think if we were all to thinkagain and then to think again,
we would have much betterrelationships and we would be
learning all the time.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Adam's got some great content, so absolutely, he does
Check that out, all right.
Question number two Jackie whoshould we be listening to?
Speaker 3 (45:48):
Wow, this is kind of you know, now that my daughter
just got a job at HR, I wouldsay your podcast, innovation and
HR.
But if there's anything else,who should we be listening to?
We've been listening to ProcterGamble, has this series called
(46:14):
Widen the View, and I woulddefinitely tell people, if you
just Googled Widen the View andProcter &er and gamble, how
important that is because youbegin to make assumptions
unconsciously and how you needto um, widen the widen the view.
So that's top of my mind.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
Second choice, after your podcast well, thank you,
and um, the procter and gambleseries.
I actually had the honor ofinterviewing shelly mcnam, who
is the chief diversity, equityand inclusion officer for
Procter Gamble, and justabsolutely wonderful things that
they're doing over there.
If you're looking for a youknow kind of an organization to
(46:55):
aspire to be, they're doing somewonderful things.
So thank you for that, sherry.
Who should we be listening to?
Speaker 1 (47:03):
I think we should be listening to the young people
and if they're not talking, weshould be asking and listening
to what they say.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
I agree, I think.
And, jackie, your daughter'sgoing into HR, so you know, hats
off to her for for jumping intothe uh, tumultuous waters, but,
um, I'm sure she's she's gotsuch a different perspective
than I did when I was going intoit, and you know I can say that
, um, you know, I learned somuch from people who are coming
(47:40):
out of college and you know I'llgive you an example.
We just hired a technicalrecruiter for one of our
locations and she came out ofschool with such a zest for
improving what we do and acompletely different level of
understanding, to the point thatI'm like I don't even know what
(48:02):
that is.
I'm going to have to Googlewhat you just said so that I can
understand what you're talkingabout.
And but there's so much there,there's so much to learn.
So, yeah, don't stifle that.
You know that's.
That's kind of what we're allabout here, right?
Keep an open mind.
So love that, all right.
Last question, I'll open thisup to both of you how can our
listeners connect with you?
Speaker 3 (48:31):
I would say you can start by going to.
We've got a great website,cwhtoday, which stands for
conversations with an S worthhavingtoday, but we figured you
won't want to spell the wholeword out.
And if you go to our websiteyou can download for free a
conversation toolkit.
And if you go to our website,you can download for free a
conversation toolkit.
The preface, the introductionof the second edition.
We've got a blog, just a wholeseries of resources on our
website.
Speaker 1 (48:52):
We also offer conversation boot camps.
That we know.
We know the practices aresimple but as you said, kyle,
they're not easy, and so ourboot camps are really intense,
(49:16):
experiential opportunities topractice retraining the brain.
And we have two of them.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
One is a kind of basic conversation boot camp and
one is on strategicconversations Awesome, and we
will have all that informationin the show notes.
So open up your podcast player,click in, check it out.
Just some really great contentand thank you for spending the
time and investing your energyand expertise into this book.
Really really been a greatconversation today, certainly a
conversation worth having, sothank you both.
Speaker 3 (49:41):
Thank you so much, Kyle.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast.
Big thank you to our guests.
Follow us on Facebook at RebelHR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR
guy, or see our website atrebelhumanresourcescom.
The views and opinionsexpressed by Rebel HR Podcast
are those of the authors and donot necessarily reflect the
official policy or position ofany of the organizations that we
(50:09):
represent.
No animals were harmed duringthe filming of this podcast.
What we have found with organizations where many
people have either read the bookor attended our boot camps is
there's some pretty simplelanguage that people pick up on
and they use with each other allthe time.
When people have these commonwords or languages that trigger
a meta level, it takes the focusoff the person as being wrong
(00:20):
or guilty or less than or badfor being below the line, and
instead it's like no, you'vejust been completely hijacked
neurophysiologically, but we canundo that and you can undo that
.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast where we
talk to HR innovators about allthings people, leadership.
If you're looking for places tofind, about new ways to think
about the world of work, this isthe podcast for you.
Please subscribe to yourfavorite podcast listening
platform today and leave us areview.
(00:52):
Rebel on HR.
Rebels Rebel HR listeners.
Thanks for joining us this week.
I'm really excited for theconversation.
This is all about conversations,which is basically HR's job, so
I'm really excited to have theconversation today with Jackie
Stavros and Sherry Torres.
They have written a book andreleased a second edition called
(01:14):
Conversations Worth Havingusing appreciative inquiry to
fuel productive and meaningfulengagement.
Jackie is a professor at theCollege of Business and IT,
lawrence TechnologicalUniversity and Appreciative
Inquiry Advisor at the David LCooper Rider Center for
Appreciative Inquiry.
She has more than 30 years ofleadership, strategic planning
(01:37):
and change management experience.
Sherry is CEO and lead catalystof Collaborative by Design, a
consulting firm that helpsorganizations improve
performance, retain talent andtransform communication and
culture, with more than 35 yearsof leadership, teamwork,
strategic planning and culturetransformation experience.
(01:57):
Thanks for joining us this week.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Thank you so much, thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Well, I'm really excited to start to dig in here,
and you know, I think, what aperfect topic conversations
worth having which is, you know,basically what we do all day
long is have some sort ofconversation.
So making sure that they areconversations that we should be
having or are worth having seemslike a pretty interesting topic
(02:23):
for us here at Rebel HumanResources.
So why don't we start off?
I'd just like to understandwhat prompted the interest in
Conversations Worth Having.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Jackie and I.
We've known each other forquite a while over 20 years and
we wrote our first book together, Dynamic Relationships, back in
2005, with a goal of bringingappreciative inquiry to the
general public, so they coulduse that approach to life, that
(03:09):
approach to life, and we decidedto do an update 10 years later
and realized that our thinkinghad completely changed, and so
we wrote a completely differentbook and we started out with a
focus on relationships, becausethat is really at the core of
everything we do also.
But working with our editor atBarrett Kohler, who kept pushing
back on us to simplify it,simplified it.
(03:30):
We really want people to do it.
It has to be simple.
We finally realized oh, this isabout our conversations.
How can we do our conversationsso they create the kinds of
relationships and practices sothat we can live our best lives
and be successful?
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Yeah, I would just add to that that, if you're
listening, think about how muchof your awaking hours you are
having a conversation withyourself, with others, whether
it's on media platforms, emails,social media.
We get people to say anywherefrom 90 to 110% of the time
(04:12):
they're having conversations.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Absolutely, you know, I think about that.
You know conversation ingeneral.
You know and I said this beforewe hit record you know that's
just what we do.
You know, in human resources,we're all about, you know, we're
all about the people right, andin order to impact and
influence people, you haveconversations with them, but I
feel like so often we get hungup on.
(04:38):
You know the tool that we useto have a conversation.
So is it, you know, is it email?
Is it virtual?
Is it video?
Is it?
Is it phone call?
Is it?
You know, face to face, um, asopposed to the, the content or
the, you know the conversationsthat we actually need to be
having.
So, so, as you, as you approachthe book, and as you, you know,
(05:01):
started to dig into uh, maybe alittle bit what sounds like a
mindset shift and started tofocus on this where do we start?
By figuring out, where shouldmy energy, where should my
conversations be focused, andhow do I prioritize the
(05:21):
conversations that are worthhaving versus, maybe, those that
aren't?
Speaker 3 (05:29):
So where do you start ?
That's a great question andthat's what brought us to the
second edition of the book isit's called Tuning In and if you
would, just you know, if youjust learn to tune in, which is,
you know, pause, take a deepbreath and get curious and ask
yourself before which of thoseconversations, where am I?
(05:49):
And imagine you had thisimaginary line, and above the
line is appreciative, you're ina space where I value you, I
value the situation, even ifit's a difficult person or a
difficult situation.
But you want to be coming fromabove the line, which are
affirmative conversations,conversations worth having.
(06:11):
And if you're below the line,you're in that depreciative,
that protect mode and yourconversations are going to be
maybe, perhaps critical ordestructive.
And you're below the line andyou don't want to be entering
conversations from below theline.
So just the technique ofpausing, taking a deep breath
(06:34):
and getting curious and askyourself where am I?
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Hmm, yeah, my head is racing and you, we've got
something coming at us seeminglyevery week.
What tactics can we use to beaware of that line and to really
inform how we approach makingsure that we are having
(07:27):
conversations worth having?
Speaker 1 (07:31):
I think they're kind of twofold recognize that our
conversations and the words thatwe use are actually deeply
(07:51):
influential and they have animpact on our neurophysiology
when we say them and theneurophysiology of people that
hear them.
And we can either throwsomebody into a state of protect
um, the defenses come up and,um, if people are feeling
criticized or like they might belike thrown out of the group,
(08:16):
which, um, from a uh, aconditioning point of view,
means we think we're going todie, that what happens just in
our nervous system is thesympathetic nervous system kicks
in.
We get a dump of cortisol,adrenaline, testosterone,
(08:42):
epinephrine dumped into oursystems and we move into a place
of fight or flight.
When we're in that place, wecan't access higher order
thinking, we can't access ouremotional intelligence, our
centers of empathy, we can'taccess creativity, because all
(09:04):
we're worried about even ourvision gets tunnel vision.
And so, if we want the best outof one another, the way we
engage with each other iscritical.
And when we have conversations,as Jackie was mentioning, above
the line, whether where we arevaluing others or we are adding
(09:25):
value through our questions andour comments, we actually create
a sense of safety, andpsychological safety is really
big in the workplace these daysand the reason is that when we
feel psychologically safe, we'vegot a whole different set of
neurotransmitters dumping intoour nervous system.
(09:47):
Parasympathetic nervous systemgoes into effect.
We relax, our brain opens up,we have access to the prefrontal
cortex, to the ability toconnect, to have empathy, to
access emotional intelligence.
Those are all the things wewant people to have in our
organizations If we wantinnovation and creativity and
(10:09):
engagement and connection.
We've got to recognize that wehave an immense amount of power
in making that possible, just bythe way we engage with people
using words the way we engagewith people using words,
(10:29):
absolutely you know.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
I don't know if I can pinpoint the exact moment where
I figured that out, but Iremember, you know, vividly,
early in my HR career, that youknow the words, the selection of
words, the timing of words, theattempt to you know, engage
somebody in a conversation atthe wrong time made a huge
(10:53):
impact on the outcome.
And I remember at one point Iwent home to my wife and it was
a rough day and I was like Ikind of had a light bulb moment
where I was like wow, and Irealized that just a couple of
the words that weremisinterpreted really screwed
things up today and I spent mostof my day unpacking the words
(11:18):
that were misinterpreted to thepeople that misinterpreted them.
And then you know, and it's it.
Um, you know whether that wasbecause I was below the line or
that person was, you know, wasnot ready to hear it.
Either way it was.
It was a situation of, ofignorance, of of not thinking
through how will this beperceived?
How?
How is this timing going to?
(11:41):
How is this timing going tooccur?
And the funny thing was theentire context of that day was I
was trying to be efficient.
I was trying to get things donequickly.
Yes, so I'm just going to saythis.
And then it blew up in my faceand made me spend all day
dealing with it.
(12:01):
So I'm walking through all thethings I've done wrong now.
So, as we approach these typesof things, especially in HR,
psychological safety is notstrong.
How do we work through that andhow do we kind of, you know,
(12:31):
tiptoe into those conversations?
Ultimately, to you know, try toresolve the situation?
Speaker 3 (12:38):
That's a great question, kyle.
You know, one thing comes to mymind, because we're all going
to fall below the line.
We're humans and we talk aboutthis in the book, but when you
know you're below the line, youcan feel it.
If you have a smartwatch on,it'll tell you by your blood
pressure or your heart rate, andwhen you pause, breathe and get
(13:00):
curious, you can ask the otherperson let's do this over.
It's called a do over, and whenyou begin to go above the line
and we had mentionedappreciative inquiry
appreciative inquiry is askingwhat would you like more?
What would you like to seehappen?
What is it you'd like to talkabout?
Because people usually come inwith their problems, what they
(13:21):
don't like, what they don't wantto talk about, like to talk
about because people usuallycome in with their problems what
they don't like, what theydon't want to talk about.
And that's where you need to,through your questions as one of
the practices, generativequestions or framing really
begin to talk about.
What would you like to seehappen?
What would you like to talkabout today?
What do you want to see more of?
Speaker 2 (13:40):
So when you're asking those types of questions, is
that kind of flipping the switchin the brain to go away from
kind of that I don't know whatthe right word is for it like
almost that animalistic fight orflight, you know, kind of
aggressiveness, into kind of thehigher level self kind of the
(14:04):
higher level self.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Yes, yes, and that's where the science is behind it,
because a generative questioncan create that frame, that
positive frame, by just askingthe questions.
And sometimes you have to askthe same question three times,
because the person's in such adisconnect, protect mode that
you know how do you see it andthey may give you a funny look
let's talk about what you'd like.
And so sometimes asking agenerative, the same generative
(14:26):
question two or three times,they begin to relax, they begin
to open up and they want toengage in a conversation worth
having with you.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
And sometimes they just want to be heard first, and
so asking the question thatsays, you know, tell me what's
going on, what's what ishappening, how's it impacting
your ability to work, and thenmoving to Okay, what do you need
or what would you like to havehappen, can be highly effective.
Often, being seen and heard isenough to shift somebody to
(15:03):
being ready to move to somethingelse, as opposed to being
dismissed or stopped.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Absolutely.
I think you know that's areally powerful tool, and don't
ask me where I heard this, butyou know.
The question I like to ask isso what does good look like for
you?
You know, or you know somethingalong those lines, right, and a
lot of times you're like, well,I don't ask me where I, where I
heard this, but you know.
The question I like to ask isso what does good look like for
you?
You know, or or you knowsomething along those lines,
right, and a lot of times you'relike, well, I don't, I don't
know, I, you know, I just, I'mjust you're supposed to tell me
(15:33):
what you know, you're supposedto tell me how to fix, but it's,
you know.
A lot of times, you know I havealso learned this through.
You know trial and error.
That you know.
I assume that I understand whatsomebody actually wants me to do
and I'm just flat out wrong,and you know, and sometimes I'm
unequipped to even help themwith that, and it's really about
(15:55):
making sure they're connectedto the right resources that can
actually help them.
So one of the things I wanted toask and I'm sure my listeners
are probably feeling this,especially as we go through
we're recording this.
In January there's a COVIDspike, there's all sorts of
questions around work from home,there's wage inflation, like
there's all sorts of thingscoming at HR right now.
(16:16):
I guarantee you that many of usare dealing with people who
just want to vent and a lot oftimes HR's office can kind of
turn into what I call.
It's like the school counselorright, where you just you walk
into the office and people justkind of sit down and they just
start to complain.
And while I want to help peoplehave good relationships and
(16:41):
connections at work and I thinkmost HR people are fairly
empathetic and want to helppeople solve their problems A
lot of times those conversationsare draining and really don't
resolve much.
So as, as we're dealing withthose types of interactions or
maybe maybe that's what you knowpeople assume HR should be how
(17:03):
can we take those types ofinteractions and make them
conversations worth having?
Speaker 1 (17:10):
So I think one of the and this is one of the
practices from our book thefirst one Jackie spoke about a
little bit was generativequestions.
The second one is using apositive frame.
Um, the second one is using apositive frame and so listening
long enough to the person who'sventing to get an idea of what
the nature of the problem isthat they're wanting to vent
(17:31):
about, and perhaps even askingquestions to get it, to make
sure it's clear, and, and youknow, putting yourself in the
place instead of in like, oh,here, here they come again,
they're going to vent.
That puts you below the line.
And now both of you are belowthe line to move into that space
(17:53):
of how can I support thisperson in helping to solve their
own problem or help them to getclear on what it is that they
want.
So flip it around in your ownmind to a challenge to create
help the person, create apositive frame for what they are
(18:13):
wanting.
And then to ask enough questionsof to get clear on what the
problem, the nature of theproblem is, then flip it to the
positive opposite.
So if somebody comes in umventing about, uh, their boss,
for example, never have.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
They don't listen.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Yeah, they don't listen to me, they don't care
about who I am.
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
And take you know, take notes,write that down.
If you have a whiteboard, writeit up there so the person can
actually see the problem they'redescribing.
And when you've got it all upthere, to finally say, okay, so
this is what the problem isright, and get them to say, yes,
(18:58):
that's it.
Now they feel heard.
And you could flip it to thepositive opposite.
Say, okay, if the positiveopposite of that were true, if
your boss listened to you andtruly valued you, and write all
that up in the second column.
If that were true, what wouldbe the outcome for you?
What would that be like?
(19:19):
What would your workenvironment be like?
What would your relationship belike?
And in that third column thenwrite down that positive frame.
This is where the person iswanting to go.
They want a good relationship,they want to be heard and valued
, and then you can be in aconversation with them around.
(19:42):
You know, even asking this is astandard appreciative inquiry
question.
Has there ever been a time whenyou have felt valued by your
boss and your boss listened toyou?
Oh yeah, about nine months ago,when.
And then they describe it?
What?
What were the conditions thatmade that possible?
Would you value about yourselfand your boss?
(20:03):
How can you and your boss beginto recreate those things?
And then do you want to trythis on your own?
How could you have aconversation with your boss
about that?
Do you want to have aconversation with me and your
boss and you?
But now you've listened,they've vented, but they're now
(20:23):
moving in a different direction.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
That's great advice.
I'm thinking, geez, I don'thave a whiteboard.
But putting that visualquestion on that whiteboard and
then confronting that questionas opposed to letting the
meandering venting occur, andthen you know what happened
seven years ago, I mean, I'mstill not over it.
(20:49):
It's like, okay, all right,there's a statute of limitations
at a certain point, right.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Seven years there is yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
So you know, it's really an interesting technique
and I can see how that couldprompt some actual solutions.
What about a situation wherethe person won't get there?
(21:19):
Get there, like, like it's justthey're so far below that line
that they truly are in a, in areally dark place, or there's a,
um, you know, there there'smaybe a point where there's
there's not going to be aproductive conversation.
You know, should we just sitthere until it ends?
(21:39):
Should we, you know, end theconversation?
What kind of tactics do yourecommend for those types of you
know situations?
Speaker 4 (21:51):
We'll be back after a quick break.
If you're a private practiceowner, here's why you want to
hire virtual assistants.
Virtual assistants not only canperform all of the non-clinical
responsibilities by supportingor replacing your current team,
but they can do it at a fractionof the cost, all while
improving the patient careexperience.
Virtual Rockstar was createdfor private practice owners by a
(22:14):
private practice owner whowants to help you gain greater
profitability and freedom.
We'll teach you how to workwith virtual assistants, all
while helping bring a family outof poverty.
Visit wwwvirtualrockstarcomtoday to learn more and book
your free discovery call atwwwvirtualrockstarcom.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
There's one suggestion that I would make,
and especially if it's alreadybeen going on if you've tried to
flip it, they won't flip,they're just stuck down below
(23:05):
just for a minute and let's takea look at what's going on at
kind of the meta level for youright now in terms of your
ability to access your owncreative potential and your own
best self, in terms of beingable even to identify what is it
that I want.
And I would bump up to the metalevel of saying here's what's
going on neurophysiologically,as you keep going over this and
over this and you're going tomove yourself further and
(23:29):
further and further away fromthe ability for you to find any
answers.
And if that's what you want tokeep doing, then go for it.
But if you want out of thatcycle so that you can reach your
own full potential, then I amdelighted to help you work
(23:52):
through that.
But we've got to get somedifferent neurotransmitters
going, so it takes the focus off.
You're wrong or you're.
You know.
The reason you're so far downbelow the line is because you've
had this huge dump of cortisoland testosterone and it's
flooded your system and we canswitch that.
(24:14):
And what we have found withorganizations, where many people
have either read the book orattended our boot camps, is
there's some pretty simplelanguage that people pick up on
and they use with each other allthe time, like, oh my goodness,
I am so far below the line.
What can I do to help you getabove the line?
Or wait a minute, wait, let'sstop for a minute.
(24:37):
Let's just name what are wedealing with.
What's the issue here?
Let's name it.
What are we dealing with?
What's the issue here?
Let's name it.
And so, when people have thesecommon words or languages that
trigger a meta level, it takesthe focus off the person as
(24:58):
being wrong or guilty or lessthan or bad for being below the
line, and instead it's like no,you've just been completely
hijacked neurophysiologically,but we can undo that, and you
can undo that.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
And adding to what Sherry said is sometimes it's
things you are unaware of.
It could be the person's notsleeping enough, they're not
hydrated enough.
There can be physiologicalthings that have put you below
the line before words even putyou below the line and you know.
Maybe they need a mental healthday.
Maybe you know it's simple asdrinking more water.
(25:27):
Certain things in your bodypull you below the line before
you've entered a conversation.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Or as my kids might say you know, dad needs to eat.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Yes, your blood sugar levels up yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Wait.
Let me just add one other thingto that, because what that
triggered for me is, whensomebody keeps going on and on
like that, it might be the timeto just pause and say what's
really going on for you, becauseit may have nothing to do with
the fact that they're railing uphere, but their partner is
(26:02):
threatening to leave them, oryou know, yeah, yeah.
Or they're overwhelmed becauseof COVID and filled with anxiety
, and or they've decided thisisn't the place for me to go and
I don't know where else to go.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
This episode is brought to you by Namely.
With workforces continuing toevolve, it's more important than
ever to keep in pace with thenature of business, but it can
be even harder to stay ahead andkeep employees connected and
engaged.
That's why you need Namely, theall-in-one HR solution that
offers everything you need toset you up for success in the
new year, so you can tackle anycurveballs that 2022 throws your
(26:39):
way.
Namely helps you easily adaptto the ever-changing workplace
and maintain a great employeeexperience, whether you have 50
or 1,000 employees, withonboarding, performance
management and intuitivebenefits enrollment all in one
connected and modern platform.
Plus, namely can streamlineyour payroll, time, tracking and
vacation requests.
So you can be everyone'sfavorite rebel HR leader, no
(27:03):
matter how your company grows.
Companies are built on people.
Don't let either fail.
Stay ahead and learn more aboutmaking the switch to Namely
Namelycom.
Don't wait, that's Namelycom.
Those are all wonderful pointsand I'm reflecting on, you know,
interactions that I've had overthe last, especially over the
last few years.
(27:24):
There's a lot of that emotion,you know, and I feel like you
know, pick a topic right.
If you just go to pick a newsline, you know a headline news
and you know you're gonna.
You're gonna find somethingwhere somebody's below the line
or something's going on that'screating some of that external
stress that could be tricklinginto the workplace.
(27:45):
But one of the things I'mcontinuing to, I'm picking up on
this and, as I've mentioned, Iwouldn't consider myself the
best at all of these things, butI am hearing that one of the
common themes here is it's notabout necessarily saying the
right thing, it's aboutlistening and responding to what
(28:05):
somebody needs in that moment.
Am I on the right track here?
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Spot on.
And Kyle, you mentioned earlier, when you find yourself
assuming, go to asking.
So when you are assumingsomething about somebody or
something, just start to ask.
And if you ask these generativequestions that are leaning in
and you really care and they'reopen-ended, you're going to
(28:30):
learn more about the otherperson.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Absolutely yeah, and I think you know we get caught
in, and I think that's not justHR.
The corporate world gets caughtup in thinking, well, what's
the right thing to say, or what?
You know, how do we, how do wespin this correctly?
You know and and and, asopposed to actually just just
taking a pause and listening andand responding with
(28:58):
authenticity and and and alittle bit.
You know just humanity, right?
I mean you know meeting peoplewhere they're at, because if you
don't do that, I mean they'llpick up on it, right.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Yeah, yeah, just showing that you care.
I mean, if you start thereabout I, I'm, I care, and if you
don't know what to say, justsaying, say that you know.
I don't know what to say and Iwant to support you.
How can I?
Speaker 3 (29:33):
What can I do?
Yeah, genuine connection andalso, sherry's, really modeling.
And I hear it in your voice too, kyle Tone and direction you
want.
You know, people know when youcome at them with a critical
tone that they can't even listento what you're saying.
But they know, just the tone ofyour voice shuts them down,
even if you're trying to help.
So having a tone that is muchmore appreciative and calming
(29:54):
when you're in a difficultsituation is going to begin to
open up and help that personconnect to you.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
It's going to begin to open up and help that person
connect to you.
Yeah, it's funny you mentionedthat because you know, one of
the challenges I think that Ifaced early in my career was I
was trying to be HR.
You know, I was trying to bewhat I thought HR should be, or
(30:24):
I was trying to be what Ithought a business leader or a
manager should be, and what thatdid is it prompted me to
essentially flip a switch andbecome just pure logic, like
binary, like, you know, noemotion.
How can I help you?
You know, do this, do that.
You should do this.
You should do that.
This is the policy.
You should do this.
This is the rule.
(30:44):
You should do that.
This person's you superior.
You need to go to them first.
You know those kinds of likethat level of thinking, and it
took me a number of years torealize that the connection, the
humanity, the actual, therichness of the conversation,
the richness of the relationshipmatters a whole lot more than
the content of you reading froma handbook.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
So absolutely, just just, wonderful content and, I
think, something that that wecan all, can all you know, learn
from.
And and you know, I would justask, you know, my listeners, to
think about.
You know, reflect on thosetimes where where you've had a
bad interaction and ask yourselfwas I above or below the line
in that interaction?
And the next time you start tohave a bad interaction, ask
(31:30):
yourself where is that lineright now?
Speaker 1 (31:34):
And also ask either what story did I make up about
the other person and could adifferent story have explained
the same facts?
And how do I know what the realstory was, if I don't ask
questions?
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Absolutely.
I mean, I love stories, you know, and I'm really good at
creating that picture in my headabout why this person is mad,
or what this person should do orwhat happened in that situation
, without actually evenunderstanding what actually
happened.
And when you confront that, yourealize, oh, this is just a bias
(32:13):
, like this is, I'm justreacting because of something
that happened this way, howevermany years ago, or in a similar
situation, et cetera.
So one of the things I want totalk about a little bit as it
relates to conversations is thestories that we tell ourselves
(32:34):
and believe coming into theworkplace.
And what I'm really talkingabout is some of the
polarization that we see in oursociety today, where somebody
believes this about masks,somebody believes this about
vaccines, somebody believes thisabout the president, somebody
believes this about the pastpresident, and it's just there's
(32:54):
a lot of that kind of noisethat has trickled into the
workplace certainly has not madeour job any easier.
So, as we're confronting peoplewho are believing their version
of a story and there's maybesome conflict or some challenges
(33:14):
in the workplace as it relatesto those types of conversations,
how can we help to mediate thator kind of try to reduce some
of that polarization in theworkplace through conversations.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Oh boy, that is a big question, I think, when being
(33:48):
in the workplace under COVIDscenarios can raise all sorts of
anxieties for people, no matterwhat side of anything you're on
.
I think again being able to haveconversations that move away
from people's belief systems andthe strengths that they bring
(34:09):
to the workplace.
How do we work together?
There's a colleague of ourswho's a jazz musician.
A colleague of ours who's a jazzmusician, and when he talks
about bringing these, thepractices, into everyday living
in an organization, he equatesit to improvisational jazz and
(34:35):
he says I don't have to likeevery jazz musician, I just have
to be able to trust that theyknow how to play their notes, to
riff when everybody riffs, thatthey will be part of the thing
(34:56):
we are trying to do together.
And if they're an excellentmusician, I don't care whether I
like them or not or ever hangout outside the office, but I
can love performing with thembecause they're really good at
what they do.
And so, perhaps, focusing onwhat are the strengths each
person brings to the team andhow do we access that in the
(35:18):
best ways that we can, beinghuman with each other and let
the stuff that we're polarizedabout, um, fall away, that might
be one, one approach, and Iguess it also depends on whether
somebody wants to keep harpingon it and they want.
Um, you know there's a lot ofjuice that comes out of stirring
(35:43):
the pot and the pot getsstirred every day by the media.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
I would add to what Sherry's saying.
So we're talking about askingthese generative questions.
Make room for diverse anddifferent perspectives.
You know how do you see it.
Why do you see it that way?
It can surface new knowledge init.
Where are you getting yourinformation, your knowledge?
So we're really having aconversation because we're
polarized.
(36:10):
But why are we this way?
Where are you getting yourinformation?
And just beginning to share it,even though we may still, at
the end of the conversation, goback to I'm not going to wear a
mask and I am going to wear amask, especially if there's no
policy in the workplace aboutwhen you wear a mask or don't
wear a mask, then you're kind offiguring it out.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yeah, it's a.
It's a.
It's definitely a tough one.
It's something that you know.
There's certainly been divisionin the workplace.
I've had, you know, I've haddifferent levels of interactions
over the years.
I don't know that it'snecessarily anything new.
It certainly seems morepronounced.
Um, you know just, and I thinkyou know my, my theory, there is
(36:58):
it's everybody's under duressright now and there's so much
stress in people's lives andtheir personal lives that it's
kind of trickling into theworkplace.
And I'll be honest, one of thechallenges that we've had is
politics at work.
(37:18):
It's always kind of been one ofthose things where, you know,
we just don't talk about thatstuff at work, Right, you know,
and that's that's kind of the,the school of thought that I was
, I was certainly raised in, butit's almost impossible not to
(37:38):
have that at work at this point,because if create our own
stories in our heads about whatsomebody believes or what they
think and why, it's a lot harderto actually engage them in a
conversation that couldpotentially prompt some conflict
.
So in a conversation worthhaving, is conflict inevitable?
(38:02):
Is that going to happen?
Speaker 3 (38:05):
You know I'm going to give a very specific example,
if I may.
You know I work at a universityand there's a policy of when
students can come to class andgo on Zoom and think about it at
work.
When you can have a virtualmeeting or come to work and the
policy says if you go throughthe dean of student services and
you have COVID or you're inquarantine, you can use Zoom.
(38:26):
And the conflict is well, whatif I can't get tested and I'm
not feeling well?
Can I come in virtually and Ihaven't been able to get to the?
You know things start creepingup because this is the first
time we've had a policy likethis.
So I think you have to bewilling to, as a manager, be a
little bit flexible with newpolicies that are written and we
(38:47):
haven't fully experienced them.
So, with me and my students, Icome up with the sub policy that
you can.
I will put you on Zoom, promisethat you will go to the Dean of
Student Services, but I wantyou to come and learn.
That's my goal and I don't wantyou to take advantage of it.
Same thing in the workplaceSomebody wants to stay at home
(39:08):
versus coming in, but theyhaven't gotten their COVID test
or whatever, is beginning totrust your employees to say all
right, what we really need isyou in this meeting.
Let's get you on the platformand then we will deal with some
of the surrounding issues aroundthat, because it's this very
new territory for everybody inthe world.
Dealing with the pandemic andthink about framing.
(39:33):
What do we really want tohappen here?
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Again, it's interesting because you went
right back to what's the goal,and your goal was to make sure
that they had a good learningenvironment.
Right, and by defining that youknow, it completely changes the
narrative from we're trying tocontrol what you do to here's
the goal of what we're trying todo here, which is very
(39:57):
different.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
Yeah, yes.
And the conflict occurs becauseI read a policy, some people
will read it.
Nope, you can't learn.
I don't have anything from thedean, you're not in class and
you're not learning.
And another professor will say,well, no, I'll put you on Zoom,
but then let's figure out howto follow this policy.
Go to that framing of what doyou?
We really want you to be ableto learn in a safe environment
(40:24):
and having that conversation andbuilding trust with the
employee or the student, whichremoves the focus off the
behavior and on to the desiredoutcome, and then people don't
have to be, they don't have tobe forced to be polarized
(40:44):
because of that.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Instead of trying to convince people of something,
it's finding out.
How do we make this work with avariety of different viewpoints
?
Speaker 2 (40:58):
Absolutely.
And where are we at, when isour line right when we try to do
that?
Yeah, revised second edition isyou do have a technique to
(41:22):
prime ourselves for aconversation with having.
So can you expand upon the kindof what that technique looks
like a little bit?
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Sure, it's pretty simple, just like the two simple
practices of generativequestions and positive framing,
priming yourself is to firstpause, then to breathe and then
to get curious.
And the reason this simpletechnique works is that when you
pause, it interrupts yourpattern.
(41:51):
So, whatever the pattern yourreactive pattern is, when you
pause it interrupts that.
That can stop the flow of thosestress hormones.
When you take a deep breath, ortwo or three, it kicks in the
parasympathetic nervous system,which further relaxes your
nervous system and begins toopen up your ability to access
(42:15):
the higher order centers of thebrain.
And then, when you get curious,curiosity is a positive emotion
and positive emotions throw youinto the prefrontal lobe and
the neocortex.
And so now, just those threesimple steps.
Now you have shifted your brainchemistry to the point where
(42:40):
you can be more open and connectwith people and access your
centers of empathy.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
It's that simple.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Yeah, that's.
You know it sounds simple, butit's not easy, right, right,
Especially when you're alreadybelow the line.
I'm gonna start using that now.
So now, below the line, youguys should trademark that
because, seriously, but, um, Imean, I, I, I.
What I love about this approachand what I think is really
(43:15):
fascinating about this book isit's this isn't just the squishy
HR stuff.
You know, there there is hardscience behind this and there's
so much about the brain thatwe're still learning.
But you know, if our job in anorganization as leaders and
human resources, and you knowpeople who are trying to
motivate others, you know, if wedon't try to understand the
(43:38):
brain and how people think andwe're trying to move an
organization and people, youknow it would serve us well to
understand why people's behavioris the way it is, or why the
brain works the way it does.
And you know, I mean to me thatjust makes perfect logical
sense so that we can achievethose goals that we're trying to
(44:00):
achieve.
So I love that approach.
So, okay, pause, breathe,curious, got it?
It's only three words I think Ican remember Perfect.
Well, this has been just anabsolutely wonderful
conversation.
I feel like we're just startingto warm up, but I'm going to
leave that there and for all ofour listeners, you know, I would
(44:20):
encourage you to learn more.
Pick up the book, the secondedition of Conversations Worth
Having Using AppreciativeInquiry to Fuel Productive and
Meaningful Engagement.
Check it out.
We'll have those links in theshow notes.
You can click right in thereand check out the book.
But there's so much more tolearn and unpack With that.
(44:40):
I want to shift gears and we'regoing to go into the flash
round, so I'm going to ask bothof you I will start with you,
jackie what is your favoritepeople book?
Speaker 3 (44:54):
My favorite people book.
It's actually one that Sherryrecommended to me and it's
called the Four Agreements onethat Sherry recommended to me
and it's called the FourAgreements, and that's probably
my go-to book, and if you everread the Four Agreements and you
don't get past the inside frontcover, it gives you the Four
Agreements.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Cliff notes.
I like it All right, perfect,sherry.
What is your favorite peoplebook?
Speaker 1 (45:18):
Mine changes depending upon what I've been
most recently reading, and rightnow Adam Grant's book Think
Again is my most favorite peoplebook.
I think if we were all to thinkagain and then to think again,
we would have much betterrelationships and we would be
learning all the time.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Adam's got some great content, so absolutely, he does
Check that out, all right.
Question number two Jackie whoshould we be listening to?
Speaker 3 (45:48):
Wow, this is kind of you know, now that my daughter
just got a job at HR, I wouldsay your podcast, innovation and
HR.
But if there's anything else,who should we be listening to?
We've been listening to ProcterGamble, has this series called
(46:14):
Widen the View, and I woulddefinitely tell people, if you
just Googled Widen the View andProcter &er and gamble, how
important that is because youbegin to make assumptions
unconsciously and how you needto um, widen the widen the view.
So that's top of my mind.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
Second choice, after your podcast well, thank you,
and um, the procter and gambleseries.
I actually had the honor ofinterviewing shelly mcnam, who
is the chief diversity, equityand inclusion officer for
Procter Gamble, and justabsolutely wonderful things that
they're doing over there.
If you're looking for a youknow kind of an organization to
(46:55):
aspire to be, they're doing somewonderful things.
So thank you for that, sherry.
Who should we be listening to?
Speaker 1 (47:03):
I think we should be listening to the young people
and if they're not talking, weshould be asking and listening
to what they say.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
I agree, I think.
And, jackie, your daughter'sgoing into HR, so you know, hats
off to her for for jumping intothe uh, tumultuous waters, but,
um, I'm sure she's she's gotsuch a different perspective
than I did when I was going intoit, and you know I can say that
, um, you know, I learned somuch from people who are coming
(47:40):
out of college and you know I'llgive you an example.
We just hired a technicalrecruiter for one of our
locations and she came out ofschool with such a zest for
improving what we do and acompletely different level of
understanding, to the point thatI'm like I don't even know what
(48:02):
that is.
I'm going to have to Googlewhat you just said so that I can
understand what you're talkingabout.
And but there's so much there,there's so much to learn.
So, yeah, don't stifle that.
You know that's.
That's kind of what we're allabout here, right?
Keep an open mind.
So love that, all right.
Last question, I'll open thisup to both of you how can our
listeners connect with you?
Speaker 3 (48:31):
I would say you can start by going to.
We've got a great website,cwhtoday, which stands for
conversations with an S worthhavingtoday, but we figured you
won't want to spell the wholeword out.
And if you go to our websiteyou can download for free a
conversation toolkit.
And if you go to our website,you can download for free a
conversation toolkit.
The preface, the introductionof the second edition.
We've got a blog, just a wholeseries of resources on our
website.
Speaker 1 (48:52):
We also offer conversation boot camps.
That we know.
We know the practices aresimple but as you said, kyle,
they're not easy, and so ourboot camps are really intense,
(49:16):
experiential opportunities topractice retraining the brain.
And we have two of them.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
One is a kind of basic conversation boot camp and
one is on strategicconversations Awesome, and we
will have all that informationin the show notes.
So open up your podcast player,click in, check it out.
Just some really great contentand thank you for spending the
time and investing your energyand expertise into this book.
Really really been a greatconversation today, certainly a
conversation worth having, sothank you both.
Speaker 3 (49:41):
Thank you so much, Kyle.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast.
Big thank you to our guests.
Follow us on Facebook at RebelHR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR
guy, or see our website atrebelhumanresourcescom.
The views and opinionsexpressed by Rebel HR Podcast
are those of the authors and donot necessarily reflect the
official policy or position ofany of the organizations that we
(50:09):
represent.
No animals were harmed duringthe filming of this podcast.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com