Unlock the secrets to a successful compensation strategy with insights from Thang Nguyen, the visionary CEO and co-founder of OpenComp. As organizations navigate challenges like the Great Resignation and wage inflation, Tang shares why compensation should be your company's cornerstone, especially during early growth phases. Learn how setting the right pay levels and communicating effectively can transform your approach to employee retention, weaving compensation data seamlessly into your company’s broader philosophy for lasting success.
Join us as we tackle some of the toughest questions in today's employment landscape. How do companies stay competitive when they can't rely on top-tier tech talent pools? Discover the importance of disciplined financial planning and strategic headcount management. With employee expectations shifting post-pandemic, we explore how adaptability and transparency, particularly in salary and equity bands, are key to attracting and retaining top talent in a rapidly evolving market.
The future of HR is here, and it’s centered around transparency and empowerment. Discover how innovative tools are reshaping compensation and equitable practices, aligning with Gen Z’s call for social responsibility and equality. As job seekers increasingly prioritize purpose over paychecks, we discuss the critical components of offering career development pathways and fostering a culture of team alignment and happiness. By creating an environment where contributions are valued and employees find meaning in their work, your organization can build a committed workforce ready to thrive in today's dynamic world.
Rebel HR is a podcast for HR professionals and leaders of people who are ready to make some disruption in the world of work. Please connect to continue the conversation!
https://twitter.com/rebelhrguy
https://www.facebook.com/rebelhrpodcast
http://www.kyleroed.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-roed/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Look, listen to your employees.
We're going to stay on topichere.
Your employees have so muchinformation as it relates to and
, generally speaking, they wantimprovement and growth in the
organization.
They're probably the biggestsupporters and aligned to a
company's success, and if youdon't have an ability to tap
(00:20):
into feedback coming from them,that's where a lot of companies
fall down.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
This is the Rebel HR Podcast, the podcast where we
talk to HR innovators about allthings people, leadership.
If you're looking for places tofind about new ways to think
about the world of work, this isthe podcast for you.
Please subscribe from yourfavorite podcast listening
platform today and leave us areview.
Rebel on HR Rebels All right,rebel HR listeners welcome back.
(00:51):
Thank you for joining us thisweek.
We have a good show.
We're going to figure out allthings comp With us.
Today we have Tang Nguyen.
He is a comp expert and an HRinsider who has spent his career
focused on compensation, and anHR insider who has spent his
career focused on compensation,a founding member of the
Salesforce HR team and thenlater executive director at
Connery Consulting as a compconsultant.
(01:12):
Now he is CEO and co-founder ofOpenComp, a company focused on
bringing compensationintelligence to high-growth
companies to help them get payright.
Welcome to the show.
Thanks a bunch.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Looking forward to this.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Me too.
You know, before I hit record,I was just.
I told you I'm just reallylooking forward to figuring out
all of these compensation issues.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
So Well, I don't know if we'll figure it all out, but
we'll give it a whole collegetry.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Absolutely so.
You know, that's actually kindof where I wanted to start with
this.
You know we were going througha period of heavy disruption.
You know there's all sorts ofheadlines around the great
resignation, the greatrecalibration.
You can put whatever buzzwordyou want on it, but a lot of the
(02:04):
underlying feedback that we'rehearing there is, with things
like wage inflation, withpeople's attitudes towards work
changing.
I think there's probably somegenerational differences out
there in the current marketenvironment.
As you look at the compensationequation, where do you start?
(02:31):
Where should a company reallykind of start?
As they look at this?
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Well, I think, when you take a step back and
certainly kind of focus on thecompanies that we work with in
terms of this kind of growth,early stage you know, recently
financed or got a slug of moneyin the coffers or ready to grow
Look, I think compensation issometimes, historically, it's
(02:58):
been put in the back burner to acertain extent, right.
And I think the, the, theplanning, the data and the
strategy in setting upcompensation is is much more
important now than ever, right.
And I think we've got socialimpact issues, um, um, that are
obviously enhanced by thepandemic, um, and everything
(03:21):
that we're hearing on the in thenews.
It's just really heightened,and everything that we're
hearing in the news, it's justreally heightened, Right.
So I don't think you can youcan push this down behind other
initiatives.
I think it's a top fiveinitiative for any CEO or any
founder or any executive builderto get this right, because
(03:43):
getting at least right is astrong word, but at least
putting energy and resourcesinto it and developing a
strategy and being able tocommunicate that strategy is
absolutely critical in the earlystages here.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, absolutely.
And coming from the other sideof the equation, as somebody
who's who's in an organizationthat's 140 plus years old, it's
a lot easier to do it early thanto try to unpack an absence of
a strategy and focus on some ofthose things you're focused on.
(04:21):
You can feel it on both sidesof that coin.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
I can tell you that much things you're focused on,
so you can feel it on both sidesof that coin.
I can tell you that much.
Yeah, I mean, look, I think youcan see it in the candidates in
the resumes, right?
Most of these resumes thesedays coming in, you're seeing at
best two years of tenure beforethey're departing, right?
And that's really tough for anorganization, as you know, to
onboard and make that investmentinto employees and have them
(04:44):
potentially walk out with allthat knowledge.
I could call that DNA.
That asset out the door in twoyears because they're not happy
is probably the biggest and mostcostly challenges that we're
seeing today in companies.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Absolutely, you know, and it's.
I think what's been reallyfascinating is, you know, yes,
compensation has always kind ofbeen underlying and but I tell
people, now it's like you know,just getting your like the
correct pay levels andstructures, that's like table
stakes.
Now it's like you know, ifyou're not doing that, just
(05:21):
forget about it.
I mean, you know you're, youcan compete on all these other
aspects, but the pay just has tobe correct from the get-go and
your structure has to be correctas well.
So, as you look at theorganizations you work with, as
you look at some of your pastexperience, what does a good
compensation strategy look like?
(05:43):
What are the elements that youwould consider to be good or
right in a comp strategy?
Speaker 1 (05:51):
that data and actually operationalizing it.
So there's really three thingsthat I try to work on with our
customers it's data, comms andactual program implementation of
(06:16):
those three and if you reallyfocus on kind of I mean there's
a lot of layers behind that, butif you really focus on being
able to do that, uh, then Ithink you're well on your way
into developing, you know, asound compensation strategy, ie
a philosophy, uh, and all thecomponents that kind of make
that up.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
I love that and I and I think it's um, you know, so
often we we talk about, you know, compensation and and all we
talk about is data, right, whereit's like which program are you
using, which consultants areyou paying to do a data study,
and then they give it to you andyou're like thanks, and that's
(06:58):
it.
And it like sits in the HRdepartment and until a board
meeting or a manager says, hey,what's this labor grade or what
is this?
You know how much am I going topay this new hire?
But so often the you know theactual implementation, the
communication, like the actualconnection to employees on what
(07:18):
the strategy is.
It's just almost left out,right.
So, as you think about, well,let's maybe walk through those
one by one.
As you think about data, Ithink in my opinion, one of the
bigger challenges with data isfiguring out which data to
(07:38):
actually listen to, becausethere's just so much and so many
sources.
So how do you start with kindof filtering?
Speaker 1 (07:50):
the right data.
Well, as basic as it is, Ithink you've got to understand
the inputs or really thechallenges around your talent,
meaning, is it geo-based or isit skill-based?
Is it widely distributed acrossthe domestic US, Is it
international, et cetera.
But by defining thoseattributes and really kind of
(08:13):
understanding the type of folksthat you actually need in your
organization, then obviously youcan kind of really ring fence
the data that you're looking forand getting data that is fully
audited and really sound to yourbusiness, and not only your
(08:33):
business from an industryperspective, but your business
in terms of its stage ofmaturity.
I think that's really important.
Not all of us can hire, as theysay, from the FANG companies,
and when we say that this couldbe even non-technology companies
, right.
So you've just got to really besound with your financial
(08:57):
planning as well and, I think,just being disciplined across
the board, just as you wouldwith your personal finances,
right, disciplined across theboard, just as you would with
your personal finances, right.
You've got to understand yourheadcount plan, everything that
impacts all those finances, thebenefits and really building a
data set that supports amajority of your population, and
(09:18):
obviously there's always goingto be the outlier cases when
you're making hires, et cetera.
But you want to build that intoyour model and your strategy as
well.
But it starts with that kind ofunderstanding, that data
framework or IE kind of theprofile that you want to
establish and then using that toreally kind of take the next
(09:40):
step forwards into your analysisand and you know, those things
that indicate what you need todo or not need to do in your
programs.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think you know, a lot of
times it's.
It's so easy to fall into thetrap like, oh well, I need an
engineer.
So I'm just going to go, I'mjust going to go look for
engineers.
You know, I'm going to go findthat, look that, look at the BLS
, and just pull it, see what itis.
But it's like when you startgoing down that rabbit hole
you're like, oh well, do youneed a chemical?
Do you need mechanical?
Do you need software?
(10:12):
Do you need application?
Do you need a travel component?
Can we hire anywhere?
It is absolutely critical toknow what you're looking for.
It is absolutely critical toknow what you're looking for.
I'm curious because you knowthe companies you work with a
lot.
You know, obviously you'regoing to have, you're going to
(10:33):
have founders, you're going tohave people who were there in
the beginning.
I'm assuming that maybe theinternal comparables maybe
aren't apples to apples all thetime.
How do you, how do you kind ofhandle that when you're coming
in and and you know we'reworking through a strategy when
there's there's a lot of paydifferences, uh, and just
different profiles?
Speaker 1 (10:54):
I think that's what you know.
Uh, that's where the kind ofdata management comes into play.
I mean, the reality is, as yougrow, you've got different uh,
and we talk about stages here ofgrowth.
You've got your compensationstrategy changes dynamically,
meaning the pick, certainly inthe tech side you're heavily
(11:16):
influenced on equity, generallyright in the early stages, and
that slowly shifts as you attainmore cash, create more revenue,
et cetera.
But you know, these markerschange aggressively over time
depending on your growth rate,right, and being able to really
manage that growth andunderstanding the dynamics of
(11:39):
your proxy data that you cancompare to influences your
compensation strategy.
And going back to what we talkedabout earlier, I don't think
people pay enough attention tothis iterative assessment of
their pay strategy because whattends to happen is, even within
a year or two years' time, evenfor us, those that came in much
(12:04):
earlier in the company's lifecycle, their pay is much
different.
So there's this iterative, likeyou know, assessment period that
one needs to address and it'syou know, I think there's the
old legacy we can only do thisonce a year and you know, let's
plot along and kind of manage.
And let's plot along and kindof manage, but we're talking
(12:25):
about disruption here.
We're talking about generationsthat have changed their
behavior around what they want,where they're working and where
they're living.
Everything is upside down onits head, certainly with the
pandemic as we talked about.
So to really be disruptive, youhave to be super iterative and
(12:46):
you really got to have the data,the real-time data, coming in
to manage those changes, andthey're so frequent these days.
The companies that don't managethe frequencies of change,
they're losing people.
They're not going to besuccessful If they're not hiring
diversified employees.
They're just not going to be ascompetitive and effective.
(13:09):
I deeply believe that's what ittakes these days.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
You're bursting my bubble, so you mean like I can't
just say well, we do that.
3% merit increase every yearand hope that's good enough.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yeah, I mean you'll see it right.
I mean we see the expectationschanging left, right and center
every week around this stuff.
I mean our candidates and theemployee population, quite
frankly, is just getting a lotmore educated on what they want,
right, whether it's the paydivide or what they want their
(13:46):
companies representing compphilosophy, more transparency
around the salary bans, theequity bans, all those things.
And that's being driven on thecandidate side and if
enterprises cannot address thatneed from candidates, they're
just not going to be successfulin hiring those, those folks,
those critical folks.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
We'll be back after a quick break.
If you're a private practiceowner, here's why you want to
hire virtual assistants.
Virtual assistants not only canperform all of the non-clinical
responsibilities by supportingor replacing your current team,
but they can do it at a fractionof the cost, all while
improving the patient careexperience.
Virtual Rockstar was createdfor private practice owners by a
(14:31):
private practice owner whowants to help you gain greater
profitability and freedom.
We'll teach you how to workwith virtual assistants, all
while helping bring a family outof poverty.
Visit wwwvirtualrockstarcomtoday to learn more and book
your free discovery call atwwwvirtualrockstarcom.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah, I think that's such an important topic and and
I, I, I mean, I kid you not, Iprobably have this conversation
at least one or two times a weekwith other hr peers and it's
the, it's that transparencypiece and it's the you know, how
do you, how do you manage that?
Or you know so and so isfrustrated because so and so
makes x and they think theyshould make x.
(15:15):
You know, so-and-so isfrustrated because so-and-so
makes X and they think theyshould make X.
You know wage compressionissues.
You know, you know there's,there's all that so, um, and at
the heart of it, I, I trulybelieve that the wage
transparency is a noble um cause, right, I mean, it really it's
(15:35):
about pay equity, it's aboutfairness, it's about consistency
, it's about respect, um, but it, it, it can, it can ruffle some
feathers, right?
So so, as we, as we shift fromthe you know kind of the data
into the, the comms and programimplementation pieces, how do
(15:56):
you approach the transparencypuzzle at an organization?
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Look, what's interesting to me is the notion
of transparency.
For us has always been aroundtransparency about your pay
strategy.
It's not whether you know Jimor Sally next door.
I know their salary and theirequity and what they're taking
(16:22):
home every day.
What's more important is I knowthat at an organizational, at a
departmental level, my companyhas a philosophy and a strategy
to maintain consistency andthat's the big word here
consistency in approach.
Whether I'm red, yellow, greenor black, they're going to
(16:44):
manage it in a way that isappropriate, given my
performance and my contributionto the business, and I think
that's so critical to frameeverything that we talk about in
this way.
And the reality, I think overthe years is we just, you know,
the HR operations, the peopleoperations side, has embedded
(17:07):
themselves in the data and thevaluable data and the tools that
support that data.
So you can't draw thatinformation out easily, or HR
professionals are fear data orbuilding those models out or
extracting that information andrunning the analysis so they
actually have, you know, thescorecards or the information
(17:28):
they need to actually make thatbusiness decision.
And that's what our goal hasbeen over the years to say let's
take that fear or thatchallenge of Excel or the
numbers and really elevate thator put it in an area where it's
easily addressable, accessible,or you have the instrumentation
you need to run your businessfrom a people enhanced people
(17:51):
perspective, and that's thedisruption, that's the challenge
of the years that it's justbeen buried, that information
has been buried and nobody canaccess it well, and they can't
activate it.
That's why you kind of get thewhole HR slag all the time right
In terms of, oh, they don't doanything on this, they're just
(18:12):
administration, et cetera.
But I think there is a bigchange that's happening with our
functional industry and that isempowerment of really easy to
use instrumentation to managepeople better.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
I love that and I think it's such an important
call out.
You know, I mean, most of us inHR didn't go into it because we
love Excel spreadsheets.
And then we get into it andwe're like and uh, you know,
we're like digging through, youknow a comp structure and it's
like this might as well be inhieroglyphics.
I don't even like what is this?
(18:53):
Well, you know what is compratio, right, you know, it's
stuff like that.
That you know.
My biggest piece of advice isyou know, if you're an HR person
, go make a friend in accounting.
You know that it's like you canbe like the dynamic duo, like
you don't have to be the expert,but like find somebody that's
really good at Excel.
It can just be, it can bemagical, trust me.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Well, look, there's, there's, there's just so much
information in your let's justcall it your employee census and
then you attach you know rateof change or things that happen
over time.
It really unlocks your abilityto support your, your business
stakeholders, uh, by 10 X, 20,30 X, if you're able to to
really kind of uh, face that orextract that information, man,
(19:44):
it's.
It's hugely powerful um foryour organization and it'll make
your life a lot easier on topof that Right.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Yeah, absolutely I.
Um, I think I'm probably alittle bit of an outlier where,
you know, one of my, my favoriteclasses in uh in in college,
where actually I had twofavorite classes One was ops
management and one wasstatistics for business, you
know, because I could see likethere's actually a practical
application there, versus likeit was a little harder for me to
do the understand the calcconnection.
(20:14):
But stats, okay, I get this.
Like okay, there's an outlier,there's, you know, there's a
standard deviation, like okay, Ican actually use this for, you
know, uh, for whatever I end updoing, um.
But I do think you know, as, aswe think about um, all of the
information that we have accessto, a lot of times we're also
(20:37):
very, very protective of thatinformation, right, and for good
reason.
Right, there's, you know,confidentiality reasons, for you
know a lot of different aspectsof what we touch Um.
So how do you, as you, as we,think about that transparency?
How do you figure out okay, wewant to share, we want to be
transparent about pay strategy?
You know how far do we go withthe actual dollars and cents
(21:03):
that we share in the strategy,or is it more about kind of
approach, or is it different forevery business?
What's your take there?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Well, look, I think you know, when you think, think
about financial planning,building out your pro formos,
right?
I mean all of that, everyelement of that has been booked
and you have a range from whichyou are operating from right.
And that same financial rangeas it relates to pay or equity
(21:34):
for an individual, what you'regoing to pay for benefits and
all those, that's a, that's atotal cost and within that that
total cost, there's breakdownsof of that.
To me, sharing those breakdownsto a candidate is no different
than building out your budget ata macro level, right, and I
(21:57):
think you know it's not about,again, it's not about the detail
, about that individual, butthis is the information at an
aggregate you can share.
And what that does, is it justit builds that trust between
that employee or that employer.
That says, really, you know,we're thinking about this
(22:20):
holistically, we're thinkingabout this philosophically.
If I were to share with you arange, right, for a chemical
engineer in your organization,it's not giving anything that is
telling about the you know, thevery specific engineers.
It's just saying here's ourrange structure and this is the
(22:42):
same structure that we're usingto build out, you know, budgets
within that department, right?
I don't.
I don't think there'sconfidentiality issues in that.
Everybody knows you're buildingout your merit cycle.
It's 3% or 4% and you may have5% for promotions et cetera.
(23:05):
Let's just expose that and saythis program happens twice a
year or once a year and it'sbased on X Y, z.
But we're even fearful of evensharing that information, right
or not, providing thatinformation to the appropriate
party so they can articulate itto their employees.
(23:26):
There's just this kind ofhostage around data and this
information that I just feellike it's kind of ridiculous,
right, because everybody's usingthis information to manage the
company programs anyways.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
I think it's a great call and I think I, you know, in
my opinion I would go back to aword you used earlier, and
that's fear.
You know.
It's the fear of oh.
If I tell somebody, you know,our merit budget is 3% this year
and they get a two, you know,now it's oh, geez.
Now I've just created someconflict.
Now I've got to explain to thisperson well, you didn't do this
(24:09):
and you didn't do this and thisgoal was missed, and this and
this, and that's why right, andthat's why right, and that's
hard, like, that's not fun, butit, it might be necessary, right
.
So I think there's some of thatum, but but then I also think
it's it's um, how would Idescribe it?
(24:29):
It's, it's almost like um, Ifeel like it's.
If you've got somebody who getsa promotion, it's like you want
them to feel like it's.
If you've got somebody who getsa promotion, it's like you want
them to feel like they're,they're, they're special.
So if they get a standard,let's just say, 5% promotional
increase, that's what everybodyelse gets with a promotion.
You know it's, it's, it's maybeless special.
You know what I mean.
Like, but a lot of.
(24:50):
I guess I think what I'm reallygetting at here is we're
operating off assumptions,assumptions of how a human will
respond when we do it, versusthe potential assumption and, I
would argue, maybe the morerealistic assumption that
someone might think that they'rebeing paid unfairly if you
don't do this.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yeah, and what's interesting is these decisions
sometimes, while they may bebubbling up like issues,
employee issues or sentimentsabout, you know I should have
performed X, y, z I think itforces you to really address
(25:31):
your program holistically, right?
The reality is a lot of thisstuff is done discretionarily
and you can do it from anindividual perspective and you
can really kind of isolate.
And that isolation, quitefrankly, sometimes isn't tracked
.
And then what happens is you'vegot a lot of exemption handling
of everything through youremployee adjustments or actions
(25:58):
and you're not addressing theproblems holistically.
And I think that's what we'retrying to say.
If you can do this from aprogrammatic perspective and
maintain that programmaticconsistency, you're going to be
able to really kind ofeffectuate change with those
programs where you need to do itanyways.
(26:19):
Right, because no programshould be stagnant.
It should.
It should be iterating andchanging over time as as you
grow.
And I think you know that's theonly way to to kind of force
that data to come out.
Otherwise you just got, youknow, got discretionary
management up and down andthat's going to cause problems
(26:39):
on an individual basis all daylong.
You've seen that, we've allseen that in board positions
that do that.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yeah, if you're listening to this and you
haven't seen that, you will Justgive it time.
But yeah, no, I mean no, I'venever seen that before.
Yeah, I am one of these.
I don't love policies and Idon't really love bureaucracy, I
feel like so, and our showtalks about that a lot.
We're kind of trying to shakeoff the old paradigm of HR as
(27:09):
the bureaucratic admin function,but when you use the word
discretion as it relates to yourcompensation structure and
strategy, it's pretty dangerous.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
It gives me you know, and so many companies use that
as an approach.
That's what's scary about it,right?
I mean, it truly is.
And look, I think this notionof discretion means for me it's
really about hey, we want toempower our stakeholders to do
what's appropriate to run theirbusiness Right, and I think
(27:43):
there in lies, like thedisruption in HR programs, right
?
Imagine a world where, uh, allof this stuff that we need to do
is obfuscated in the back,meaning the data is there, all
the instrumentation is there andthere's not this forced process
(28:03):
where, hey, I need to addressemployee pay, personnel pay,
promotions, merits throughoutthe year.
What if you could do thatthroughout the year without
going through an arduous, forcedfocal review model, whatever,
so you can actually address yourpeople as you need them, as
they are performing or they'renot performing, etc.
(28:26):
Or anything else.
We want to ultimately fluidlyempower our operators, our
leaders and our people managersto manage their people.
But they need help, they needthe back-end support, they need
the data to do that, and I thinksometimes the way we do it
(28:52):
today it's counter, it's aconflict of interest, right,
Because none of that is reallybuilt in an easy process model
or there's not tools that allowthat hiring manager to do that
or that people manager to dothat, and thus you wrangle
everything into a year-end modeland you force all this rigor
(29:15):
and all this you know what canbe deemed as bureaucracy because
you don't have theinfrastructure to support them
throughout that kind of 365-daykind of management cycle.
That really would be moresupportive of that employee's
growth and that manager'sability to run that team more
(29:38):
fluidly.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Yeah, it's really interesting, I think a great
call out and I think many of theHR professionals can relate to
that.
It's the well, we have thisschedule and this is the
schedule.
you know and and that's, and,and you know deviations from the
schedule are are you know, notcorrect, but, um, you know,
(30:02):
whether it's right or wrongreally kind of depends on does
it achieve the goal you want itto achieve right, which is
retention of your key employeesand, uh, you know, recruitment
of new employees with a, youknow, competitive pay and
benefit structure.
So if it's not working, thenthat's exactly why our show
exists.
Maybe we need to change, Maybewe need to think about it a
(30:23):
little differently.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Even the largest tech companies, the billions and the
billions of market cap, eventhey're going through the
standard arduous process of oh,we've reviewed these individuals
.
Now we have to wait for theability to actually address
their successes, throughpromotions or not.
(30:46):
But it's going to take eightmonths to do that, man.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Right, yeah, no, yeah , don't worry, I'm taking notes
here Cause I'm like yep, we'vedone that, yep, doing that right
now.
So I'm not planning to changethat, so?
So that's one thing I do wantto talk about because I think I
think it'd be easy to listen tothis and think like, well, yeah,
you know that's tech or that's,you know that's, that's a high
growth company, but you know,we're not like that.
(31:14):
Maybe we're a small business ormaybe, you know, maybe we just
maybe I'm I'm a corporateemployee and I don't have the
ability to make these types ofchanges.
But I guess that's one questionthat I had is you know, as we
talk about kind of thesecreative compensation strategies
, um, how do we help match thatto our organization values, you
(31:38):
know, and organization valuesand really the organizational
goals, how do you approach that?
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Well, first and foremost, I think, whether you
fall in the camp of hey, we'renot going to do anything, or we,
you know, we're not tech, orthe belief that I think you're
going to be forced into thatgenerally over time through your
talent needs, I thinkcandidates are going to want
(32:08):
what we're talking about heretransparency.
They're going to want to know,you know, if they're applying
for said job, what salary bandit is coming in, and they're
going to want to know, possibly,the diversity within the
function or the company andthey're going to want to know
the pay equity.
I think that's coming down theline.
(32:30):
We're seeing it come throughfrom a public company
perspective.
We're seeing it come throughfrom a public company
perspective.
We're seeing it come throughcertainly on the tech, and tech
is certainly one of thosepioneering things and over time,
you see this even in policy,right, california, new York
State, colorado, like you haveto put your salary bands out
(32:53):
there and it's coming, you know.
So companies need to address itright, um, um, some way shape or
form, and I think you know um,from a data and innovation
perspective, I think tools arecoming to help companies do this
(33:13):
much quicker and easier.
I mean, that's why we're here.
That's why I started my companyhere to do that.
So you don't need 20compensation consultants even
though I was one back in the dayand we charged handsomely for
our services but at the end ofthe day, it's not scalable for
(33:34):
folks, right?
We need instrumentation outthere.
We need easy to use models,data models, easy to use
analytical instrumentation thatallows folks like you, kyle, to
manage your company better andmore easily without having to
pile a bunch of money into somebasic data that should already
(33:58):
be there and you already havefrom an organization perspective
, right?
So don't know if that answersthe question, but I think we're
going to be forced to to addressall of this, and I think there
are a lot of innovators outthere trying to support this
through technology.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Absolutely, and I think you're right and I think
that and we've seen this just inyou know some of the hiring
we've done just over the lastfew years.
But you go back and you look at, like, some of the surveys you
know some of the surveys of youknow new college graduates and I
mean the drive and the desirefor their organizations to have.
(34:40):
You know equitable practices,and I'm not talking just pay, I
mean we're talking you knowcognitive diversity and you know
what we would highlight is, youknow traditional diversity.
You know metrics and you know,again, that's kind of like table
stakes now it's like if youdon't have a social
responsibility pledge on yourwebsite, um, canada's just won't
(35:03):
even interview with you.
They won't apply.
You know, um, I was looking at asurvey the other day I had to
pull it up here as we weretalking that um, uh, those born
uh 1997 to 2010, or Gen Z, um36% say equality is the most
important cause they want theiremployer to support.
(35:25):
So that's like that's not likethem saying that it's important
for them to support equality,they're saying like they, like
one third of these people, wanttheir employer to support this
in one way, shape or form.
Right, that was prettyastounding to me because that's
very different than, you know,the hiring environment that
we've had in the past, at leastthat I'm used to.
So, yeah, I think it's coming.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
You know.
Again, I think about my kidsand like what they want, how
they're being educated today and, yeah, it's just much different
than, certainly, how we grew upand how we were educated and
what our expectations were andwhat our expectations for our
employers meaning what we askedfor our employees in terms of
information and data.
It's just much more rigorousnow.
Absolutely, we're a growthcompany and we have these.
It's nice because we do thisright and we have this data.
We built our company around it,but it's just validating with
the employees that we've hired.
(36:37):
They're asking all the thingsthat we're hearing about.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Absolutely.
I think in the same context,you mentioned this job length of
two years.
I mean three years if you'relucky, right, that's a, that's a
seasoned employee in some, insome industries, right, and it's
.
You know, the truth is thatthat's happening because people
have better opportunitieselsewhere.
(37:04):
And if you, if you look at thecompetitive landscape, a lot of
times people can get a 10, 15,20% pay raise by switching jobs,
what you're probably not goingto give them a 20% pay raise and
during a merit increase cycle,it's just not, you know,
economically feasible most ofthe time.
So they're going to need to,you're going to need to have
(37:25):
them stay for a different reasonthan if you want to keep that
employee right, most likely.
But if you have, like, a careerpath, right, if you have like a
, like you know, documentedlevels and compensations
associated with said levels anda career development pipeline
that goes along with that thatthat person can invest and
(37:46):
engage in, well, oh gee, maybe,maybe I don't need to answer
that.
Linkedin, you know, the seventhLinkedIn request for an
interview that I got this week,right, I mean, because that's
the environment.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Yeah, I mean, look it's.
It's interesting because, uh, Iwas having a conversation with
my engine product team it's acouple of weeks ago, uh, on this
and one of our lead um uhproduct.
She said it's really around thisidea of work happiness for her
(38:20):
and trying to figure that out,and we were talking about the
virtues and the values thatwe're putting in our product and
to me that really stood out andit's not meant to be hokey, but
that's what I worry about theteam happiness, team alignment,
(38:40):
because the reality is we're notmax dollar providers, right,
meaning you're coming to us forvery different reasons, whether
it's our stage or what we do orthe people that we work with,
because, at the end of the day,when you're dealing with highly
(39:00):
skilled white-collarprofessionals, there's always a
higher player, meaning you canalways, especially in this
market, you're going to be ableto get a job, making more money,
making more equity, all thosethings.
So what keeps you here, right,what keeps you happy?
It's the little things thatthat add up to to really big
(39:24):
things, and I think that's thosemicro loops of of all the
things that we do as an employerto ensure that you know, our
employees are having fun,they're rich and they've got a
great opportunity for growth,and what they're working on is
stuff that they can be proudabout, talk about at home at the
(39:47):
dinner table or at holiday andThanksgiving, right.
I mean those are the kind ofintrinsic things that say, well,
if you're talking about that inthat way to your mom and
Thanksgiving right, I mean.
Those are the kind of intrinsicthings that say, well, if
you're talking about that inthat way to your mom and dad and
you've got a smile on your face.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
You're likely going to stay right.
I love it.
Although I will say it atThanksgiving and Christmas, I do
have some really good storiesfrom the world of HR that we're
all laughing and smiling fordifferent reasons Because, like
what happened, yeah, those arefun, although, you know, in the
dark humor of HR, sometimes thatis entertaining.
(40:27):
No names were used, don't worryanybody.
Confidentiality was breached,but yeah, there's been some
crazy days.
This has been just a wonderfulconversation, I think.
Just so much great content tothink through, and I would
encourage anybody who's listenedto this go back to the
beginning, put it on one and aquarter speed or two X speed,
(40:51):
take as many notes as you can ifyou weren't taking notes during
this because, as we're allfacing this, I just think that
the future of compensation isexactly what we just talked
about, and the organizationsthat don't get that figured out
now are going to be left in thedust, and the organizations that
do figure it out now are goingto be the winners and they're
(41:11):
going to be better off for it.
So, that being said, we'regoing to shift over into the
Rebel HR flash round.
I can't wait to hear yourresponses here.
So, okay, question number onewhere does HR need to rebel?
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Oh man, I think it's got to rebel against its current
traditional processes.
I think HR can be a datasciences function.
Quite frankly Empower, use thedata.
I think it's one of the mostpowerful things HR professionals
(41:50):
have access to, but in today's,generally speaking, I don't see
it um showing up as much as itshould, as it should be.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
I agree a hundred percent.
I mean that's why I founded thepodcast, so let's you know that
we're definitely aligned onthat front.
But there is so much powerthere and for those of you that
haven't like cultivated thatrelationship with your CFO or
your finance person and reallygone in and done a deep dive on
some of the human analytics thatyou have access to, I guarantee
(42:27):
you that there will be someinsights that drive some program
strategies and they also helpyou get you know that, the, the,
the support that you need.
You know it's then.
It's not just a human appeal todo something.
Now you've got data backing whyyou want to do something right.
It's just so critical.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Yeah, it's a treasure trove of information in there.
We love it, we're.
We built a whole company basedon it, so yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Well, we could talk about that's another whole
nother show I we can just nerdout on like.
So what about this metric?
How does it?
You know what's theincentivization of this metric
to that?
Anyways, all right.
Question number two who shouldwe be listening to?
Speaker 1 (43:11):
From an HR perspective or just like in
general.
Who should be listening to?
I mean, I've had people namedlike bands before, so you can go
wherever you want with it.
Look, listen to your employees.
We're going to stay on topichere.
Your employees have so muchinformation as it relates to
wants, needs and, generallyspeaking, they want improvement
(43:38):
and growth in the organization.
They're probably the biggestsupporters and aligned to a
company's success, and if youdon't have an ability to tap
into feedback coming from them,I think that's where a lot of
companies fall down.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Love that, love that, and don't just because you're
HR, don't assume that you'regetting all of that employee
feedback.
Yeah Right, like you gotta, yougotta shake the source and and
question your assumptions everyonce in a while too.
So, very well said, all right.
Last question how can ourlisteners connect with you?
My direct email tang atopencompcom Love to hear from
(44:25):
you.
Perfect, and we will have thatinformation in the show notes.
I think.
Just a wonderful conversation,a lot of great content, I think.
For me personally, you'vechallenged some of my
conventional thinking, um,appropriately so, and so I just
really appreciate the time heretoday and, uh, and the the
information shared with ourlisteners, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Thanks, Kyle.
It was a great time.
Thanks Appreciate you.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast.
Big thank you to our guests.
Follow us on Facebook at RebelHR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR
guy, or see our website at rebelhuman resourcescom.
Views and opinions expressed byRebel HR podcast are those of
the authors and do notnecessarily reflect the official
(45:11):
policy or position of any ofthe organizations that we
represent.
No animals were harmed duringthe filming of this podcast.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
Baby.
Look, listen to your employees.
We're going to stay on topichere.
Your employees have so muchinformation as it relates to and
, generally speaking, they wantimprovement and growth in the
organization.
They're probably the biggestsupporters and aligned to a
company's success, and if youdon't have an ability to tap
(00:20):
into feedback coming from them,that's where a lot of companies
fall down.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
This is the Rebel HR Podcast, the podcast where we
talk to HR innovators about allthings people, leadership.
If you're looking for places tofind about new ways to think
about the world of work, this isthe podcast for you.
Please subscribe from yourfavorite podcast listening
platform today and leave us areview.
Rebel on HR Rebels All right,rebel HR listeners welcome back.
(00:51):
Thank you for joining us thisweek.
We have a good show.
We're going to figure out allthings comp With us.
Today we have Tang Nguyen.
He is a comp expert and an HRinsider who has spent his career
focused on compensation, and anHR insider who has spent his
career focused on compensation,a founding member of the
Salesforce HR team and thenlater executive director at
Connery Consulting as a compconsultant.
(01:12):
Now he is CEO and co-founder ofOpenComp, a company focused on
bringing compensationintelligence to high-growth
companies to help them get payright.
Welcome to the show.
Thanks a bunch.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Looking forward to this.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Me too.
You know, before I hit record,I was just.
I told you I'm just reallylooking forward to figuring out
all of these compensation issues.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
So Well, I don't know if we'll figure it all out, but
we'll give it a whole collegetry.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Absolutely so.
You know, that's actually kindof where I wanted to start with
this.
You know we were going througha period of heavy disruption.
You know there's all sorts ofheadlines around the great
resignation, the greatrecalibration.
You can put whatever buzzwordyou want on it, but a lot of the
(02:04):
underlying feedback that we'rehearing there is, with things
like wage inflation, withpeople's attitudes towards work
changing.
I think there's probably somegenerational differences out
there in the current marketenvironment.
As you look at the compensationequation, where do you start?
(02:31):
Where should a company reallykind of start?
As they look at this?
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Well, I think, when you take a step back and
certainly kind of focus on thecompanies that we work with in
terms of this kind of growth,early stage you know, recently
financed or got a slug of moneyin the coffers or ready to grow
Look, I think compensation issometimes, historically, it's
(02:58):
been put in the back burner to acertain extent, right.
And I think the, the, theplanning, the data and the
strategy in setting upcompensation is is much more
important now than ever, right.
And I think we've got socialimpact issues, um, um, that are
obviously enhanced by thepandemic, um, and everything
(03:21):
that we're hearing on the in thenews.
It's just really heightened,and everything that we're
hearing in the news, it's justreally heightened, Right.
So I don't think you can youcan push this down behind other
initiatives.
I think it's a top fiveinitiative for any CEO or any
founder or any executive builderto get this right, because
(03:43):
getting at least right is astrong word, but at least
putting energy and resourcesinto it and developing a
strategy and being able tocommunicate that strategy is
absolutely critical in the earlystages here.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, absolutely.
And coming from the other sideof the equation, as somebody
who's who's in an organizationthat's 140 plus years old, it's
a lot easier to do it early thanto try to unpack an absence of
a strategy and focus on some ofthose things you're focused on.
(04:21):
You can feel it on both sidesof that coin.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
I can tell you that much things you're focused on,
so you can feel it on both sidesof that coin.
I can tell you that much.
Yeah, I mean, look, I think youcan see it in the candidates in
the resumes, right?
Most of these resumes thesedays coming in, you're seeing at
best two years of tenure beforethey're departing, right?
And that's really tough for anorganization, as you know, to
onboard and make that investmentinto employees and have them
(04:44):
potentially walk out with allthat knowledge.
I could call that DNA.
That asset out the door in twoyears because they're not happy
is probably the biggest and mostcostly challenges that we're
seeing today in companies.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Absolutely, you know, and it's.
I think what's been reallyfascinating is, you know, yes,
compensation has always kind ofbeen underlying and but I tell
people, now it's like you know,just getting your like the
correct pay levels andstructures, that's like table
stakes.
Now it's like you know, ifyou're not doing that, just
(05:21):
forget about it.
I mean, you know you're, youcan compete on all these other
aspects, but the pay just has tobe correct from the get-go and
your structure has to be correctas well.
So, as you look at theorganizations you work with, as
you look at some of your pastexperience, what does a good
compensation strategy look like?
(05:43):
What are the elements that youwould consider to be good or
right in a comp strategy?
Speaker 1 (05:51):
that data and actually operationalizing it.
So there's really three thingsthat I try to work on with our
customers it's data, comms andactual program implementation of
(06:16):
those three and if you reallyfocus on kind of I mean there's
a lot of layers behind that, butif you really focus on being
able to do that, uh, then Ithink you're well on your way
into developing, you know, asound compensation strategy, ie
a philosophy, uh, and all thecomponents that kind of make
that up.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
I love that and I and I think it's um, you know, so
often we we talk about, you know, compensation and and all we
talk about is data, right, whereit's like which program are you
using, which consultants areyou paying to do a data study,
and then they give it to you andyou're like thanks, and that's
(06:58):
it.
And it like sits in the HRdepartment and until a board
meeting or a manager says, hey,what's this labor grade or what
is this?
You know how much am I going topay this new hire?
But so often the you know theactual implementation, the
communication, like the actualconnection to employees on what
(07:18):
the strategy is.
It's just almost left out,right.
So, as you think about, well,let's maybe walk through those
one by one.
As you think about data, Ithink in my opinion, one of the
bigger challenges with data isfiguring out which data to
(07:38):
actually listen to, becausethere's just so much and so many
sources.
So how do you start with kindof filtering?
Speaker 1 (07:50):
the right data.
Well, as basic as it is, Ithink you've got to understand
the inputs or really thechallenges around your talent,
meaning, is it geo-based or isit skill-based?
Is it widely distributed acrossthe domestic US, Is it
international, et cetera.
But by defining thoseattributes and really kind of
(08:13):
understanding the type of folksthat you actually need in your
organization, then obviously youcan kind of really ring fence
the data that you're looking forand getting data that is fully
audited and really sound to yourbusiness, and not only your
(08:33):
business from an industryperspective, but your business
in terms of its stage ofmaturity.
I think that's really important.
Not all of us can hire, as theysay, from the FANG companies,
and when we say that this couldbe even non-technology companies
, right.
So you've just got to really besound with your financial
(08:57):
planning as well and, I think,just being disciplined across
the board, just as you wouldwith your personal finances,
right, disciplined across theboard, just as you would with
your personal finances, right.
You've got to understand yourheadcount plan, everything that
impacts all those finances, thebenefits and really building a
data set that supports amajority of your population, and
(09:18):
obviously there's always goingto be the outlier cases when
you're making hires, et cetera.
But you want to build that intoyour model and your strategy as
well.
But it starts with that kind ofunderstanding, that data
framework or IE kind of theprofile that you want to
establish and then using that toreally kind of take the next
(09:40):
step forwards into your analysisand and you know, those things
that indicate what you need todo or not need to do in your
programs.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think you know, a lot of
times it's.
It's so easy to fall into thetrap like, oh well, I need an
engineer.
So I'm just going to go, I'mjust going to go look for
engineers.
You know, I'm going to go findthat, look that, look at the BLS
, and just pull it, see what itis.
But it's like when you startgoing down that rabbit hole
you're like, oh well, do youneed a chemical?
Do you need mechanical?
Do you need software?
(10:12):
Do you need application?
Do you need a travel component?
Can we hire anywhere?
It is absolutely critical toknow what you're looking for.
It is absolutely critical toknow what you're looking for.
I'm curious because you knowthe companies you work with a
lot.
You know, obviously you'regoing to have, you're going to
(10:33):
have founders, you're going tohave people who were there in
the beginning.
I'm assuming that maybe theinternal comparables maybe
aren't apples to apples all thetime.
How do you, how do you kind ofhandle that when you're coming
in and and you know we'reworking through a strategy when
there's there's a lot of paydifferences, uh, and just
different profiles?
Speaker 1 (10:54):
I think that's what you know.
Uh, that's where the kind ofdata management comes into play.
I mean, the reality is, as yougrow, you've got different uh,
and we talk about stages here ofgrowth.
You've got your compensationstrategy changes dynamically,
meaning the pick, certainly inthe tech side you're heavily
(11:16):
influenced on equity, generallyright in the early stages, and
that slowly shifts as you attainmore cash, create more revenue,
et cetera.
But you know, these markerschange aggressively over time
depending on your growth rate,right, and being able to really
manage that growth andunderstanding the dynamics of
(11:39):
your proxy data that you cancompare to influences your
compensation strategy.
And going back to what we talkedabout earlier, I don't think
people pay enough attention tothis iterative assessment of
their pay strategy because whattends to happen is, even within
a year or two years' time, evenfor us, those that came in much
(12:04):
earlier in the company's lifecycle, their pay is much
different.
So there's this iterative, likeyou know, assessment period that
one needs to address and it'syou know, I think there's the
old legacy we can only do thisonce a year and you know, let's
plot along and kind of manage.
And let's plot along and kindof manage, but we're talking
(12:25):
about disruption here.
We're talking about generationsthat have changed their
behavior around what they want,where they're working and where
they're living.
Everything is upside down onits head, certainly with the
pandemic as we talked about.
So to really be disruptive, youhave to be super iterative and
(12:46):
you really got to have the data,the real-time data, coming in
to manage those changes, andthey're so frequent these days.
The companies that don't managethe frequencies of change,
they're losing people.
They're not going to besuccessful If they're not hiring
diversified employees.
They're just not going to be ascompetitive and effective.
(13:09):
I deeply believe that's what ittakes these days.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
You're bursting my bubble, so you mean like I can't
just say well, we do that.
3% merit increase every yearand hope that's good enough.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yeah, I mean you'll see it right.
I mean we see the expectationschanging left, right and center
every week around this stuff.
I mean our candidates and theemployee population, quite
frankly, is just getting a lotmore educated on what they want,
right, whether it's the paydivide or what they want their
(13:46):
companies representing compphilosophy, more transparency
around the salary bans, theequity bans, all those things.
And that's being driven on thecandidate side and if
enterprises cannot address thatneed from candidates, they're
just not going to be successfulin hiring those, those folks,
those critical folks.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
We'll be back after a quick break.
If you're a private practiceowner, here's why you want to
hire virtual assistants.
Virtual assistants not only canperform all of the non-clinical
responsibilities by supportingor replacing your current team,
but they can do it at a fractionof the cost, all while
improving the patient careexperience.
Virtual Rockstar was createdfor private practice owners by a
(14:31):
private practice owner whowants to help you gain greater
profitability and freedom.
We'll teach you how to workwith virtual assistants, all
while helping bring a family outof poverty.
Visit wwwvirtualrockstarcomtoday to learn more and book
your free discovery call atwwwvirtualrockstarcom.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah, I think that's such an important topic and and
I, I, I mean, I kid you not, Iprobably have this conversation
at least one or two times a weekwith other hr peers and it's
the, it's that transparencypiece and it's the you know, how
do you, how do you manage that?
Or you know so and so isfrustrated because so and so
makes x and they think theyshould make x.
(15:15):
You know, so-and-so isfrustrated because so-and-so
makes X and they think theyshould make X.
You know wage compressionissues.
You know, you know there's,there's all that so, um, and at
the heart of it, I, I trulybelieve that the wage
transparency is a noble um cause, right, I mean, it really it's
(15:35):
about pay equity, it's aboutfairness, it's about consistency
, it's about respect, um, but it, it, it can, it can ruffle some
feathers, right?
So so, as we, as we shift fromthe you know kind of the data
into the, the comms and programimplementation pieces, how do
(15:56):
you approach the transparencypuzzle at an organization?
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Look, what's interesting to me is the notion
of transparency.
For us has always been aroundtransparency about your pay
strategy.
It's not whether you know Jimor Sally next door.
I know their salary and theirequity and what they're taking
(16:22):
home every day.
What's more important is I knowthat at an organizational, at a
departmental level, my companyhas a philosophy and a strategy
to maintain consistency andthat's the big word here
consistency in approach.
Whether I'm red, yellow, greenor black, they're going to
(16:44):
manage it in a way that isappropriate, given my
performance and my contributionto the business, and I think
that's so critical to frameeverything that we talk about in
this way.
And the reality, I think overthe years is we just, you know,
the HR operations, the peopleoperations side, has embedded
(17:07):
themselves in the data and thevaluable data and the tools that
support that data.
So you can't draw thatinformation out easily, or HR
professionals are fear data orbuilding those models out or
extracting that information andrunning the analysis so they
actually have, you know, thescorecards or the information
(17:28):
they need to actually make thatbusiness decision.
And that's what our goal hasbeen over the years to say let's
take that fear or thatchallenge of Excel or the
numbers and really elevate thator put it in an area where it's
easily addressable, accessible,or you have the instrumentation
you need to run your businessfrom a people enhanced people
(17:51):
perspective, and that's thedisruption, that's the challenge
of the years that it's justbeen buried, that information
has been buried and nobody canaccess it well, and they can't
activate it.
That's why you kind of get thewhole HR slag all the time right
In terms of, oh, they don't doanything on this, they're just
(18:12):
administration, et cetera.
But I think there is a bigchange that's happening with our
functional industry and that isempowerment of really easy to
use instrumentation to managepeople better.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
I love that and I think it's such an important
call out.
You know, I mean, most of us inHR didn't go into it because we
love Excel spreadsheets.
And then we get into it andwe're like and uh, you know,
we're like digging through, youknow a comp structure and it's
like this might as well be inhieroglyphics.
I don't even like what is this?
(18:53):
Well, you know what is compratio, right, you know, it's
stuff like that.
That you know.
My biggest piece of advice isyou know, if you're an HR person
, go make a friend in accounting.
You know that it's like you canbe like the dynamic duo, like
you don't have to be the expert,but like find somebody that's
really good at Excel.
It can just be, it can bemagical, trust me.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Well, look, there's, there's, there's just so much
information in your let's justcall it your employee census and
then you attach you know rateof change or things that happen
over time.
It really unlocks your abilityto support your, your business
stakeholders, uh, by 10 X, 20,30 X, if you're able to to
really kind of uh, face that orextract that information, man,
(19:44):
it's.
It's hugely powerful um foryour organization and it'll make
your life a lot easier on topof that Right.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Yeah, absolutely I.
Um, I think I'm probably alittle bit of an outlier where,
you know, one of my, my favoriteclasses in uh in in college,
where actually I had twofavorite classes One was ops
management and one wasstatistics for business, you
know, because I could see likethere's actually a practical
application there, versus likeit was a little harder for me to
do the understand the calcconnection.
(20:14):
But stats, okay, I get this.
Like okay, there's an outlier,there's, you know, there's a
standard deviation, like okay, Ican actually use this for, you
know, uh, for whatever I end updoing, um.
But I do think you know, as, aswe think about um, all of the
information that we have accessto, a lot of times we're also
(20:37):
very, very protective of thatinformation, right, and for good
reason.
Right, there's, you know,confidentiality reasons, for you
know a lot of different aspectsof what we touch Um.
So how do you, as you, as we,think about that transparency?
How do you figure out okay, wewant to share, we want to be
transparent about pay strategy?
You know how far do we go withthe actual dollars and cents
(21:03):
that we share in the strategy,or is it more about kind of
approach, or is it different forevery business?
What's your take there?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Well, look, I think you know, when you think, think
about financial planning,building out your pro formos,
right?
I mean all of that, everyelement of that has been booked
and you have a range from whichyou are operating from right.
And that same financial rangeas it relates to pay or equity
(21:34):
for an individual, what you'regoing to pay for benefits and
all those, that's a, that's atotal cost and within that that
total cost, there's breakdownsof of that.
To me, sharing those breakdownsto a candidate is no different
than building out your budget ata macro level, right, and I
(21:57):
think you know it's not about,again, it's not about the detail
, about that individual, butthis is the information at an
aggregate you can share.
And what that does, is it justit builds that trust between
that employee or that employer.
That says, really, you know,we're thinking about this
(22:20):
holistically, we're thinkingabout this philosophically.
If I were to share with you arange, right, for a chemical
engineer in your organization,it's not giving anything that is
telling about the you know, thevery specific engineers.
It's just saying here's ourrange structure and this is the
(22:42):
same structure that we're usingto build out, you know, budgets
within that department, right?
I don't.
I don't think there'sconfidentiality issues in that.
Everybody knows you're buildingout your merit cycle.
It's 3% or 4% and you may have5% for promotions et cetera.
(23:05):
Let's just expose that and saythis program happens twice a
year or once a year and it'sbased on X Y, z.
But we're even fearful of evensharing that information, right
or not, providing thatinformation to the appropriate
party so they can articulate itto their employees.
(23:26):
There's just this kind ofhostage around data and this
information that I just feellike it's kind of ridiculous,
right, because everybody's usingthis information to manage the
company programs anyways.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
I think it's a great call and I think I, you know, in
my opinion I would go back to aword you used earlier, and
that's fear.
You know.
It's the fear of oh.
If I tell somebody, you know,our merit budget is 3% this year
and they get a two, you know,now it's oh, geez.
Now I've just created someconflict.
Now I've got to explain to thisperson well, you didn't do this
(24:09):
and you didn't do this and thisgoal was missed, and this and
this, and that's why right, andthat's why right, and that's
hard, like, that's not fun, butit, it might be necessary, right
.
So I think there's some of thatum, but but then I also think
it's it's um, how would Idescribe it?
(24:29):
It's, it's almost like um, Ifeel like it's.
If you've got somebody who getsa promotion, it's like you want
them to feel like it's.
If you've got somebody who getsa promotion, it's like you want
them to feel like they're,they're, they're special.
So if they get a standard,let's just say, 5% promotional
increase, that's what everybodyelse gets with a promotion.
You know it's, it's, it's maybeless special.
You know what I mean.
Like, but a lot of.
(24:50):
I guess I think what I'm reallygetting at here is we're
operating off assumptions,assumptions of how a human will
respond when we do it, versusthe potential assumption and, I
would argue, maybe the morerealistic assumption that
someone might think that they'rebeing paid unfairly if you
don't do this.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yeah, and what's interesting is these decisions
sometimes, while they may bebubbling up like issues,
employee issues or sentimentsabout, you know I should have
performed X, y, z I think itforces you to really address
(25:31):
your program holistically, right?
The reality is a lot of thisstuff is done discretionarily
and you can do it from anindividual perspective and you
can really kind of isolate.
And that isolation, quitefrankly, sometimes isn't tracked
.
And then what happens is you'vegot a lot of exemption handling
of everything through youremployee adjustments or actions
(25:58):
and you're not addressing theproblems holistically.
And I think that's what we'retrying to say.
If you can do this from aprogrammatic perspective and
maintain that programmaticconsistency, you're going to be
able to really kind ofeffectuate change with those
programs where you need to do itanyways.
(26:19):
Right, because no programshould be stagnant.
It should.
It should be iterating andchanging over time as as you
grow.
And I think you know that's theonly way to to kind of force
that data to come out.
Otherwise you just got, youknow, got discretionary
management up and down andthat's going to cause problems
(26:39):
on an individual basis all daylong.
You've seen that, we've allseen that in board positions
that do that.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yeah, if you're listening to this and you
haven't seen that, you will Justgive it time.
But yeah, no, I mean no, I'venever seen that before.
Yeah, I am one of these.
I don't love policies and Idon't really love bureaucracy, I
feel like so, and our showtalks about that a lot.
We're kind of trying to shakeoff the old paradigm of HR as
(27:09):
the bureaucratic admin function,but when you use the word
discretion as it relates to yourcompensation structure and
strategy, it's pretty dangerous.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
It gives me you know, and so many companies use that
as an approach.
That's what's scary about it,right?
I mean, it truly is.
And look, I think this notionof discretion means for me it's
really about hey, we want toempower our stakeholders to do
what's appropriate to run theirbusiness Right, and I think
(27:43):
there in lies, like thedisruption in HR programs, right
?
Imagine a world where, uh, allof this stuff that we need to do
is obfuscated in the back,meaning the data is there, all
the instrumentation is there andthere's not this forced process
(28:03):
where, hey, I need to addressemployee pay, personnel pay,
promotions, merits throughoutthe year.
What if you could do thatthroughout the year without
going through an arduous, forcedfocal review model, whatever,
so you can actually address yourpeople as you need them, as
they are performing or they'renot performing, etc.
(28:26):
Or anything else.
We want to ultimately fluidlyempower our operators, our
leaders and our people managersto manage their people.
But they need help, they needthe back-end support, they need
the data to do that, and I thinksometimes the way we do it
(28:52):
today it's counter, it's aconflict of interest, right,
Because none of that is reallybuilt in an easy process model
or there's not tools that allowthat hiring manager to do that
or that people manager to dothat, and thus you wrangle
everything into a year-end modeland you force all this rigor
(29:15):
and all this you know what canbe deemed as bureaucracy because
you don't have theinfrastructure to support them
throughout that kind of 365-daykind of management cycle.
That really would be moresupportive of that employee's
growth and that manager'sability to run that team more
(29:38):
fluidly.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Yeah, it's really interesting, I think a great
call out and I think many of theHR professionals can relate to
that.
It's the well, we have thisschedule and this is the
schedule.
you know and and that's, and,and you know deviations from the
schedule are are you know, notcorrect, but, um, you know,
(30:02):
whether it's right or wrongreally kind of depends on does
it achieve the goal you want itto achieve right, which is
retention of your key employeesand, uh, you know, recruitment
of new employees with a, youknow, competitive pay and
benefit structure.
So if it's not working, thenthat's exactly why our show
exists.
Maybe we need to change, Maybewe need to think about it a
(30:23):
little differently.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Even the largest tech companies, the billions and the
billions of market cap, eventhey're going through the
standard arduous process of oh,we've reviewed these individuals
.
Now we have to wait for theability to actually address
their successes, throughpromotions or not.
(30:46):
But it's going to take eightmonths to do that, man.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Right, yeah, no, yeah , don't worry, I'm taking notes
here Cause I'm like yep, we'vedone that, yep, doing that right
now.
So I'm not planning to changethat, so?
So that's one thing I do wantto talk about because I think I
think it'd be easy to listen tothis and think like, well, yeah,
you know that's tech or that's,you know that's, that's a high
growth company, but you know,we're not like that.
(31:14):
Maybe we're a small business ormaybe, you know, maybe we just
maybe I'm I'm a corporateemployee and I don't have the
ability to make these types ofchanges.
But I guess that's one questionthat I had is you know, as we
talk about kind of thesecreative compensation strategies
, um, how do we help match thatto our organization values, you
(31:38):
know, and organization valuesand really the organizational
goals, how do you approach that?
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Well, first and foremost, I think, whether you
fall in the camp of hey, we'renot going to do anything, or we,
you know, we're not tech, orthe belief that I think you're
going to be forced into thatgenerally over time through your
talent needs, I thinkcandidates are going to want
(32:08):
what we're talking about heretransparency.
They're going to want to know,you know, if they're applying
for said job, what salary bandit is coming in, and they're
going to want to know, possibly,the diversity within the
function or the company andthey're going to want to know
the pay equity.
I think that's coming down theline.
(32:30):
We're seeing it come throughfrom a public company
perspective.
We're seeing it come throughfrom a public company
perspective.
We're seeing it come throughcertainly on the tech, and tech
is certainly one of thosepioneering things and over time,
you see this even in policy,right, california, new York
State, colorado, like you haveto put your salary bands out
(32:53):
there and it's coming, you know.
So companies need to address itright, um, um, some way shape or
form, and I think you know um,from a data and innovation
perspective, I think tools arecoming to help companies do this
(33:13):
much quicker and easier.
I mean, that's why we're here.
That's why I started my companyhere to do that.
So you don't need 20compensation consultants even
though I was one back in the dayand we charged handsomely for
our services but at the end ofthe day, it's not scalable for
(33:34):
folks, right?
We need instrumentation outthere.
We need easy to use models,data models, easy to use
analytical instrumentation thatallows folks like you, kyle, to
manage your company better andmore easily without having to
pile a bunch of money into somebasic data that should already
(33:58):
be there and you already havefrom an organization perspective
, right?
So don't know if that answersthe question, but I think we're
going to be forced to to addressall of this, and I think there
are a lot of innovators outthere trying to support this
through technology.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Absolutely, and I think you're right and I think
that and we've seen this just inyou know some of the hiring
we've done just over the lastfew years.
But you go back and you look at, like, some of the surveys you
know some of the surveys of youknow new college graduates and I
mean the drive and the desirefor their organizations to have.
(34:40):
You know equitable practices,and I'm not talking just pay, I
mean we're talking you knowcognitive diversity and you know
what we would highlight is, youknow traditional diversity.
You know metrics and you know,again, that's kind of like table
stakes now it's like if youdon't have a social
responsibility pledge on yourwebsite, um, canada's just won't
(35:03):
even interview with you.
They won't apply.
You know, um, I was looking at asurvey the other day I had to
pull it up here as we weretalking that um, uh, those born
uh 1997 to 2010, or Gen Z, um36% say equality is the most
important cause they want theiremployer to support.
(35:25):
So that's like that's not likethem saying that it's important
for them to support equality,they're saying like they, like
one third of these people, wanttheir employer to support this
in one way, shape or form.
Right, that was prettyastounding to me because that's
very different than, you know,the hiring environment that
we've had in the past, at leastthat I'm used to.
So, yeah, I think it's coming.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
You know.
Again, I think about my kidsand like what they want, how
they're being educated today and, yeah, it's just much different
than, certainly, how we grew upand how we were educated and
what our expectations were andwhat our expectations for our
employers meaning what we askedfor our employees in terms of
information and data.
It's just much more rigorousnow.
Absolutely, we're a growthcompany and we have these.
It's nice because we do thisright and we have this data.
We built our company around it,but it's just validating with
the employees that we've hired.
(36:37):
They're asking all the thingsthat we're hearing about.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Absolutely.
I think in the same context,you mentioned this job length of
two years.
I mean three years if you'relucky, right, that's a, that's a
seasoned employee in some, insome industries, right, and it's
.
You know, the truth is thatthat's happening because people
have better opportunitieselsewhere.
(37:04):
And if you, if you look at thecompetitive landscape, a lot of
times people can get a 10, 15,20% pay raise by switching jobs,
what you're probably not goingto give them a 20% pay raise and
during a merit increase cycle,it's just not, you know,
economically feasible most ofthe time.
So they're going to need to,you're going to need to have
(37:25):
them stay for a different reasonthan if you want to keep that
employee right, most likely.
But if you have, like, a careerpath, right, if you have like a
, like you know, documentedlevels and compensations
associated with said levels anda career development pipeline
that goes along with that thatthat person can invest and
(37:46):
engage in, well, oh gee, maybe,maybe I don't need to answer
that.
Linkedin, you know, the seventhLinkedIn request for an
interview that I got this week,right, I mean, because that's
the environment.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Yeah, I mean, look it's.
It's interesting because, uh, Iwas having a conversation with
my engine product team it's acouple of weeks ago, uh, on this
and one of our lead um uhproduct.
She said it's really around thisidea of work happiness for her
(38:20):
and trying to figure that out,and we were talking about the
virtues and the values thatwe're putting in our product and
to me that really stood out andit's not meant to be hokey, but
that's what I worry about theteam happiness, team alignment,
(38:40):
because the reality is we're notmax dollar providers, right,
meaning you're coming to us forvery different reasons, whether
it's our stage or what we do orthe people that we work with,
because, at the end of the day,when you're dealing with highly
(39:00):
skilled white-collarprofessionals, there's always a
higher player, meaning you canalways, especially in this
market, you're going to be ableto get a job, making more money,
making more equity, all thosethings.
So what keeps you here, right,what keeps you happy?
It's the little things thatthat add up to to really big
(39:24):
things, and I think that's thosemicro loops of of all the
things that we do as an employerto ensure that you know, our
employees are having fun,they're rich and they've got a
great opportunity for growth,and what they're working on is
stuff that they can be proudabout, talk about at home at the
(39:47):
dinner table or at holiday andThanksgiving, right.
I mean those are the kind ofintrinsic things that say, well,
if you're talking about that inthat way to your mom and
Thanksgiving right, I mean.
Those are the kind of intrinsicthings that say, well, if
you're talking about that inthat way to your mom and dad and
you've got a smile on your face.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
You're likely going to stay right.
I love it.
Although I will say it atThanksgiving and Christmas, I do
have some really good storiesfrom the world of HR that we're
all laughing and smiling fordifferent reasons Because, like
what happened, yeah, those arefun, although, you know, in the
dark humor of HR, sometimes thatis entertaining.
(40:27):
No names were used, don't worryanybody.
Confidentiality was breached,but yeah, there's been some
crazy days.
This has been just a wonderfulconversation, I think.
Just so much great content tothink through, and I would
encourage anybody who's listenedto this go back to the
beginning, put it on one and aquarter speed or two X speed,
(40:51):
take as many notes as you can ifyou weren't taking notes during
this because, as we're allfacing this, I just think that
the future of compensation isexactly what we just talked
about, and the organizationsthat don't get that figured out
now are going to be left in thedust, and the organizations that
do figure it out now are goingto be the winners and they're
(41:11):
going to be better off for it.
So, that being said, we'regoing to shift over into the
Rebel HR flash round.
I can't wait to hear yourresponses here.
So, okay, question number onewhere does HR need to rebel?
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Oh man, I think it's got to rebel against its current
traditional processes.
I think HR can be a datasciences function.
Quite frankly Empower, use thedata.
I think it's one of the mostpowerful things HR professionals
(41:50):
have access to, but in today's,generally speaking, I don't see
it um showing up as much as itshould, as it should be.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
I agree a hundred percent.
I mean that's why I founded thepodcast, so let's you know that
we're definitely aligned onthat front.
But there is so much powerthere and for those of you that
haven't like cultivated thatrelationship with your CFO or
your finance person and reallygone in and done a deep dive on
some of the human analytics thatyou have access to, I guarantee
(42:27):
you that there will be someinsights that drive some program
strategies and they also helpyou get you know that, the, the,
the support that you need.
You know it's then.
It's not just a human appeal todo something.
Now you've got data backing whyyou want to do something right.
It's just so critical.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Yeah, it's a treasure trove of information in there.
We love it, we're.
We built a whole company basedon it, so yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Well, we could talk about that's another whole
nother show I we can just nerdout on like.
So what about this metric?
How does it?
You know what's theincentivization of this metric
to that?
Anyways, all right.
Question number two who shouldwe be listening to?
Speaker 1 (43:11):
From an HR perspective or just like in
general.
Who should be listening to?
I mean, I've had people namedlike bands before, so you can go
wherever you want with it.
Look, listen to your employees.
We're going to stay on topichere.
Your employees have so muchinformation as it relates to
wants, needs and, generallyspeaking, they want improvement
(43:38):
and growth in the organization.
They're probably the biggestsupporters and aligned to a
company's success, and if youdon't have an ability to tap
into feedback coming from them,I think that's where a lot of
companies fall down.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Love that, love that, and don't just because you're
HR, don't assume that you'regetting all of that employee
feedback.
Yeah Right, like you gotta, yougotta shake the source and and
question your assumptions everyonce in a while too.
So, very well said, all right.
Last question how can ourlisteners connect with you?
My direct email tang atopencompcom Love to hear from
(44:25):
you.
Perfect, and we will have thatinformation in the show notes.
I think.
Just a wonderful conversation,a lot of great content, I think.
For me personally, you'vechallenged some of my
conventional thinking, um,appropriately so, and so I just
really appreciate the time heretoday and, uh, and the the
information shared with ourlisteners, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Thanks, Kyle.
It was a great time.
Thanks Appreciate you.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast.
Big thank you to our guests.
Follow us on Facebook at RebelHR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR
guy, or see our website at rebelhuman resourcescom.
Views and opinions expressed byRebel HR podcast are those of
the authors and do notnecessarily reflect the official
(45:11):
policy or position of any ofthe organizations that we
represent.
No animals were harmed duringthe filming of this podcast.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
Baby.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.