December 23, 2024 • 53 mins
Unlock the secrets of workplace transformation through the power of play with Jeff Harry, a leading HR influencer. Jeff's journey, inspired by the movie "Big" and marred by the realities of the corporate world, led him to a pivotal experience with a playful engineering education organization. Through these experiences, Jeff discovered the critical importance of creating psychologically safe work environments that nurture innovation. Our conversation sheds light on how play can address the challenging issues of workplace toxicity and office politics, fostering a professional life that is both fulfilling and productive.
Imagine a workplace where team-building events go beyond superficial activities like bowling or ping pong and effectively address deeper issues. We dive into the intricacies of team-building and the misconceptions that often accompany such activities. Through Jeff’s workshop, "Dealing with A-Holes at Work Through Play," we explore ways to confront workplace toxicity head-on. Learn about the staggering financial impact of toxic environments and the necessity of having those difficult conversations that many shy away from. Together, we emphasize the importance of a culture where mutual respect and accountability are the norms rather than the exceptions.
But it doesn't stop there. We also explore how HR professionals can inject fun and creativity into their work, even when it feels daunting. Drawing insights from companies like Google and Zappos, we discuss how fostering creativity and encouraging passion projects can lead to groundbreaking innovations and happier workplaces. Listen to us advocate for a shift to a "yes, and" mindset that can revolutionize workplace dynamics, and hear rebellious strategies for HR professionals ready to challenge the status quo. Join us for this insightful episode packed with actionable strategies to enhance workplace happiness and productivity.
Rebel HR is a podcast for HR professionals and leaders of people who are ready to make some disruption in the world of work. Please connect to continue the conversation!
https://twitter.com/rebelhrguy
https://www.facebook.com/rebelhrpodcast
http://www.kyleroed.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-roed/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You are stacking all those positive priming moments.
Now, on the flip side, whatpeople are doing usually in a
workday is first they look atthe news, which actually makes
you 20% to 30% less productive,and then, when they say they
have a bad day, I challengewhether they had a bad day,
because what you had is you hada bad moment.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
This is the Rebel HR Podcast.
If you're a professionallooking for innovative,
thought-provoking information inthe world of human resources,
this is the right podcast foryou.
Alright, Rebel Human Resourceslistener.
I am extremely pumped up fortoday's show.
(00:42):
We've got a great guest withsome fascinating innovations
that I think you should listento.
So I'd like to introduce youall to Jeff Harry.
Jeff shows individuals andcompanies how to tap into their
true selves to feel theirhappiest and most fulfilled, all
by playing.
He's got a bunch of awesomeresults behind his name Top 100
(01:08):
HR influencers by Engagedly TopHR influencers to watch by
Bamboo HR.
I don't have enough time toread them all, so I am going to
let Jeff talk about some of that.
Welcome to the show, Jeff.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Hey, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
I'm super amped talk about some of that.
So welcome to the show, jeff.
Hey, thanks so much for havingme.
I'm super amped, me too.
Me too.
I think this is perfect.
It's been an interesting year,2020, and it'll be nice to focus
on some fun.
Yeah, with us today is Molly,our esteemed co-host, and she
will be asking some questions aswell, so let's get started All
(01:46):
right.
All right, jeff, so I will letyou give our listeners a little
bit of your background.
Why don't you tell us aboutyourself?
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Sure, so I'll tell you my like Batman origin story.
So do you remember the movieBig with Tom Hanks?
You ever see that movie?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, I love that movie.
You put the thing in the gameand then he grew up.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Right.
He grew up.
So I saw that movie in thirdgrade and Tom Hanks literally
dances up on a piano and thenthey offer him a job to work in
the toy industry.
And as soon as I saw that I waslike dude, that is exactly what
I'm going to do with my life.
So I started writing toycompanies in third grade and I
just did not stop, and they mostof the time I just get
(02:33):
rejection letters back because Ithink they thought I was older
than I actually was.
And a company just wrote meback one time and was like you
should go into mechanicalengineering, and I really should
not have listened to them.
But that's what I did.
So I did that, graduated andthen got in the toy industry.
And I don't know if you've evergotten what you've always
(02:54):
wanted and then been sodisappointed when you get there.
But that's what was happening.
I was in a cubicle.
The walls were padded, whichyou're like why are these walls
padded?
You know you know no fun, noplay, no adults that are
high-fiving, you know no toys,no kids.
And I was like what am I doinghere?
(03:14):
And I remember having my littlequarter-life crisis moving from
New York to the Bay Area, sanFrancisco Bay Area, and then you
know, piddling around for alittle bit and then bumping into
an organization that wasteaching kids engineering with
Lego and they basically werejust playing for a living,
paying 150 bucks a week like ajoke of a job.
(03:34):
But they were playing and I waslike I want to get paid to play
.
So I stuck with them and wegrew it into like the largest
Lego inspired STEM organization,like in the US.
But the way we did it was wejust played, like we had no idea
what we were doing.
We made it up as we went along.
We pick cities because wethought they were fun.
(03:55):
We had no business plan, youknow.
We hired people because theywere fun.
We experimented, we failedmiserably all the time.
But we got so big in the Bayarea At one point we were
teaching 100,000 kids a yearthat Silicon Valley started to
pay attention to us Facebook,google, adobe, netflix, all of
(04:15):
them and they wanted us to runteam building events.
And we were like, yeah, ofcourse we run team building
events.
Even though we didn't, we justsaid yes to everything, right.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
It's like, of course we do.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yes, we've been doing that for years.
And then for the next, likeeight, nine years I ran team
building events for, like someof the top tech companies like
in the world.
But you know at the same timethat they talked about
innovation, disruption, agile,all those buzzwords, right.
They had not created a safe,psychologically you know,
(04:47):
comfortable work environment forpeople to play and take risks,
and the reason why is theyweren't having the harder
conversations, like how to dealwith toxicity at work, how to
address racism at work, how todeal with office politics, how
to have a hard conversation, howto get your staff and flow like
all of that, how to deal withoffice politics, how to have a
hard conversation, how to getyour staff and flow like all of
that.
How to deal with your innercritic.
So I created Rediscover yourPlay as a way of combining
(05:11):
positive psychology and play totackle some of a company's
biggest, most challenging issues.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
So you got exactly what you wanted, and you hated
every minute of it.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Is that fair yeah?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
So I'm just recalling the movie.
So basically, the people whowere classified as the bad guys
were like, just like what it'sactually like to work in
corporate America, right?
Speaker 1 (05:37):
exactly Right, because, like you never know
right, like you always dreamit's going to be amazing, right,
like you, you always drink it'sgoing to be amazing.
And then you get to corporateAmerica and you were like, where
did all the?
Why is everyone's energy justbeing sucked out of them, like
your soul is being sucked out ofyou?
I remember once I left a job ina dramatic way.
(05:58):
There was this KaiserPermanente, like hospital job.
You know.
I was like just doing adminwork or something there.
I quit right on the spot.
And I remember, as I was leaving, I looked at a bunch of my
former colleagues, former right,um, and they were like what are
you doing?
Where are you going?
Why are you leaving?
And I was like we just spokelast week about how you've been
(06:19):
wanting to leave for five years.
I'm just taking your advice anddoing it instead of like dying
a slow death here, you know.
But they were like no, staywith us, stay in the suffering.
And I'm like nah, dude, I'mgood, I am good.
And I think that was the lastcubicle job yeah, I ever had.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Good for you for taking that leap.
Most people don't I know it'sso sad.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
It really is, really is I just remember, you know, if
we're talking movies here, thethe one that resonates the most
with me is office space oh, yes,but it's it's like I love that
movie.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
I still love that movie I still watch clips every
week once in a while.
I'll just watch clips of of himwhen he, like uh, talks to the
two hr guys that are lettingeveryone go and he's, like I do
basically like 17 minutes ofwork a week middle management
potential yes I'm not great atmovie quotes or anything, but
(07:20):
the movie that's sticking out tothe time of year is office
christmas party oh yeah, you'rethe crazy hr lady molly, for
suresee, I need to watch that I
haven't seen that when you're inhr, it's great that's a that
you know that.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
I think that is probably the most um accurate
depiction of an hr professionalthat I've seen on screen.
Um, If you haven't seen it, ifyou're in HR it's required
viewing Okay.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Don't watch it with your kids.
Let's just say, okay, I need towatch it.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Molly, you describe it.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Don't watch it with your kids.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
No, I heard it's quite raunchy.
Very much so, but it's fun,which is great because this year
, like people are doing itvirtual, so we're not going to
have as many of those issues.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
As long as everybody wears pants.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
That's asking a lot.
That's asking a lot.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Okay, jeff, so you had said you started doing team
building events.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
I know there's a lot of organizations that of course,
they want to do a team buildingevent.
They're always looking forthings, but I also feel like a
lot of organizations get itwrong.
Where and why do people get itwrong and what is your advice?
What's your best team builder?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah.
So I actually stopped doinglike the stuff I now do.
You know, I actually stoppeddoing team building events
because I felt like they werethey're just kind of like
bowling Right.
They're just kind of likebowling right, like they're like
, hey, you feel good for just alittle bit and then you, you
know, then you go back towhatever you're doing, and I
think I think where people getit wrong um, companies get it
wrong is they bring some teambuilding organization in and
(08:58):
then they are thinking likeafterwards, everything's going
to just change, right, you know.
And and the fact fact is, ifyou're not taking risks and
trying to have hardconversations or trying to go
somewhere with it, then it'sjust going to be something happy
, like going to play pool orping pong, which is totally fine
and people connect that way aswell, but you're not really
(09:21):
going to go deep, deep right.
So I think people have toadjust their expectations of
what they actually expect from ateam building event.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah, I actually I am not a big fan of like the let's
do the one-off.
Like trust falls in the office.
Right, right.
You know like every time I'vetried to do something like that
in my career, everybody hasliterally like they hear it and
they're like ugh, yeah, why dopeople say that they do that
(09:53):
because it's forced.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Fun, right.
Right, the whole idea of play,if you think about it, in a
playground, a kid has the optionto play or not play.
They have the option to dowhatever they want.
They could just observe fromthe sidelines.
But with, I think, a lot ofteam building events, you know,
and a lot of times when, likethe HR staff's, like we're going
to, we're going to become ateam, you know, like I know, we
(10:17):
haven't talked at all the wholeyear, but now, this hour, we're
going to all get along.
It's just like dude.
Where we're going to all getalong.
It's just like dude.
This is just come on, man.
I remember once running a teambuilding event for a biomedical
company that shall not be namedand it was at a winery, and this
is when I was still doing theLego gig.
(10:37):
And I remember, during the teambuilding event, where they're
all building something together,right, and then the boss turns
to everyone.
He goes get away, everyone,move back.
I got this and he just movedlike 20 VP executives that are
like managing multimilliondollar, if not billion dollar
(10:58):
deals, and it was just likeeveryone, move away.
I'm going to work on this bymyself.
So 20 people who were at thewinery just started drinking
wine because they're like, well,I don't want to hang out with
this guy.
And then during the debrief,they were like what happened
there?
And he goes.
Well, the reason why I had todo that was because I have a lot
of experience with Lego, sothat's why I had to step up and
(11:19):
it was like, oh my gosh guys,this is it.
Gosh guys, like this is it.
This is the problem.
I can't help you with this.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
I can't, I can't like .
This is deep seated, so thatwas part of the reason why I
started.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Rediscover your Play, because I was like yo.
We need to talk about toxicityat work.
We need to talk about officepolitics, like we need to have
that hard conversation becauseright now we're just tiptoeing
around it and it sucks.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
The elephant, the room, yeah, so how do you?
How do you do that?
Speaker 1 (11:49):
oh which which one talking about office politics or
toxic people, because I can getinto the toxic people how do
you love me, a toxic person yeahgive all the good stories you
do get all the good stories.
So here I'll go through, likethe you know, because we go
through a bunch of differentsteps.
So I think you know, wheneverI'm talking about toxic people,
(12:13):
we have to first put it intocontext.
Right, like I ran this workshopit's called Dealing with
A-Holes at Work Through Play,like that literally is the name
of the workshop.
And I did it with my friend,gary Ware, and we never thought
anyone would say yes to this.
Right, like why would anyonesay yes to it?
But we applied to some of thetop conferences, like like in
the country, and then, and thenthey were like, yes, we need
(12:34):
this.
So then we were like, oh sweet.
So then we like traveled toAustralia to do it and we did it
right before, you know, rightbefore quarantine, quarantine.
And while we were running it inaustralia, like people were
both laughing and crying duringthe workshop.
But the main reason they weredoing that is because a lot of
them did not realize that, thatthey, they thought they were the
(12:56):
only ones, they thought thatthey were the only ones that
left a job because of a toxicperson.
And then we shared, like thisstudy done by Sherm about how,
like I think October 2019, theydid this study where $223
billion has been lost by fortune500 companies alone just in the
last five years due to toxicpeople.
(13:18):
And these are only thecompanies that are willing to
admit it.
Right, so it must be even alarger amount of money, but 223
billion, fricking dollars.
So it's just like, why are weletting toxic people, just like,
run amok at our companies?
Right, so, you know, when werun the workshop, we're like
first, it's like listen, this isall about setting boundaries
(13:39):
and like being very clear aboutthem.
So our first suggestion this iswe go from easiest to hardest,
right?
So easiest is that toxic personis taking up a lot of time and
meetings, right, they're suckingthe energy, sucking the soul
out of the meeting.
They're talking 60 to 80% ofthe meeting.
So I always recommend likelisten, we got to start
(14:00):
organizing, right?
So, hey, kyle, molly, the nexttime you're speaking up and that
guy cuts you off, I'm going tobe like whoa, whoa, whoa, chad.
Sorry, if your name's Chad, I'msorry, but I'm going to use you
as the a-hole in this example.
Hey, chad, kyle was stillsharing something.
Can we hear what he has to say?
Wait, can we hear more fromMolly, because if Molly hasn't
been able to speak up yet, youknow, and and we start to occupy
(14:24):
the meeting back, and this issomething you do over the next
three to six months, where youare slowly taking over right and
not letting this persondominate the meeting.
So that's the easiest one.
The second one is actuallyconfronting that toxic person
like head on, and that's notconfronting them and attacking
their behavior, but you are ornot attacking their behavior,
(14:45):
but you are not attacking theircharacter, but you are
addressing their behavior andthe impact that it's having.
So I'd be like hey, chad, youknow, when you cut off Molly,
when she was in the middle ofsaying something, you know, not
only were you communicating thatyou didn't want to hear from
her, but you were alsocommunicating to Kyle and myself
(15:05):
and everyone else here that youdidn't want to hear.
What we had to say Is that theintent?
Was that your intent?
You know, because that's theimpact you're having.
And then just see, because alot of toxic people are like
engineers that just have badcommunication skills and they
might not know Right, but say,for example, they're like hey,
man, f f you, I'll do whatever Iwant.
My name's chad.
(15:25):
Okay, all right, let's dealwith it.
So then the next thing obviouslyis like, not just approaching
their supervisor or theirsupervisor supervisor, if
they're you know a-holes but butwhen you approach them,
approaching it from the thecontext of what impact they're
having, it's just like listen, Iknow Chad is the brilliant jerk
(15:46):
.
He brings in $700,000 a yearright In revenue, or whatever
that case may be.
Simon Sinek talks a lot abouthow the brilliant jerk is never
wanted on the Navy SEALs.
The Navy SEALs will never takethe bravest person, they'll
never take the most athletic orthe smartest, because if they're
the brilliant jerk, they'regoing to destroy the team.
(16:08):
So when you say, hey, chad hasbeen bringing in all these
revenue, but he's also causedthree people to quit, which
actually has cost us a milliondollars, we're actually losing
$300,000 by keeping Chad.
So can we address this person'sbehavior because he's causing
this impact?
And when you say it like that,then they really have a choice
(16:30):
Like are we going to, you know,go with the values that we claim
, we say we're doing, or arethey going to be hypocritical at
that point and and and supportChad?
And if they support Chad, atthat point, you know, maybe this
is not the right place for you.
But then the hardest way ofdealing with a toxic person is
(16:51):
you actually have to addressyour own inner Chad, your own
inner toxic person, your owninner a-hole, like your own
inner, you know, critic, right,because there's a reason why
Chad triggers you.
Maybe you think you're animposter, maybe you think you
shouldn't get paid as much ashim, maybe you think you
shouldn't be speaking up at work, right, or at a meeting.
(17:13):
But if you're like, wait aminute, like no way dude, like
Chad's an idiot, like Idefinitely should be his boss, I
definitely should be paiddouble his salary.
You know, I definitely am notan imposter, I kick ass at this
job.
And you actually believe thatthe next time Chad is super rude
to you, you just turn to himand you're just like Chad don't
ever speak to me in that way.
(17:33):
And then, once they do that,it's just like oh, molly just
stepped up to Chad.
And then Kyle's like man.
I'm going to step up to Chad.
And then Jeff's like I'mstepping up to Chad too, I'm not
going to tolerate this.
And then, all of a sudden,everyone's stepping up to Chad
and he has a choice.
He either changes his behaviorand gets his stuff together, his
shit together, or he leaves.
(17:54):
And that's what's happening,because you're sucking the
energy out of that toxic persondamn Chad.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
I know, molly.
I have a question for you am IChad?
Speaker 1 (18:07):
you do interrupt me quite a bit.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I do interrupt.
Maybe I need to be the one toshut up.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
No.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
We all got a little Chad in us maybe.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
We all got a little Chad in us.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Sorry to any listener named Chad.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Yeah, I'm so sorry, I actually wrestle with this a
lot, like do you think Chad istoxic at the core, like most of
the time?
Can you change a Chad?
Do they change you can?
Speaker 1 (18:35):
You can change a Chad .
The question is is, how longare you willing to tolerate it?
Right, I had a Chad at one ofmy jobs.
He didn't change for five years.
Like like he had to bereprimanded numerous times and
it was about to the point wherehe was going to get fired and
then he, he got help, you know.
Then he like started seeing atherapist and addressing stuff,
(18:56):
but like, if you're willing toput in that work, you know, or
like setting that boundary.
But I think also we all want tobe the hero in our story, so we
want ch Chad to be the villainand sometimes Chad isn't the
villain, right, like sometimeshe just like sucks at
communicating.
So we have to feel what is itlike to be that person Like.
(19:26):
Some people are like, ooh, Ilike it, and others are like, oh
, get this off me.
Like I never want to be thismean, right, but it's
interesting just to put yourselfin that person's shoes, right.
And then and then we practiceactually role-playing, like how
would you have this hardconversation with this person?
Because, guess what, it's notjust going to be one
conversation, it's going to beone over and over again for like
over a year before you finallymaybe make some inroads.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
I see this a lot with leaders.
So they bring on like a newhire and they're just not
performing where they need toperform.
So leaders are instantly like,well, this guy doesn't give a
crap, or this Chad is, he's nota good fit.
Chad's being a jerk, instead oftruly asking the hard questions
to themselves or admitting thatthey can't get Chad where he
(20:12):
needs to go.
Right, right, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Right and I think about you know, just in the
context of you know, personalexperience.
A lot of these people Chad's umare jerks because they're,
they've been rewarded to exhibitthat behavior either be
aggressive and drive sales andbe pushy, and they get the
(20:39):
promotions and the raises andthe recognition, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
So so that's where, like, you have to slowly change
that culture by challenging thatright.
I know so many salespeople thatare just like that and maybe
that works in certain realms.
But I remember talking to thisone guy and he knew it.
He was just like yeah, I knowI'm an a-hole, I don't really
care and I know it's just like.
Well, do you know the impactyou're having?
(21:03):
He's like look, it works, andas long as it works, I'm going
to keep doing it.
So everyone else has to make itseem, make it so that it
doesn't work anymore, right?
Like they keep getting rewardedfor that, they keep getting
their bonuses, even though theyget complaints all the time.
So why should they change,right?
Speaker 3 (21:24):
So in HR, in the HR space, a lot of us sometimes not
me, but there are a lot of HRindividuals that have to deal
with the Chad that is, let's say, the CEO.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Would your advice change or be any different for
that HR individual?
Speaker 1 (21:44):
like what power dynamics exist.
Because, I mean, we have to becareful sometimes, right,
because sometimes we don't wantto speak up to the person
because we're like that personis just going to fire us.
And that might be true or itmight not be true.
You have to, you have to gaugethat for yourself.
But if someone that is like a10 year, like it's been part of
HR for a while, and canrepresent the group and knows
(22:07):
that you know they have cover,right, they have other VPs that
are going to vouch for them, sothat even if that CEO snaps and
is like, oh, get rid of Kyle,because you know he challenged
me, you know, you know you'renot going to get removed, then
it's worth challenging that CEOand then again approaching it
from the standpoint of like,listen, ceo, you know our sales
(22:31):
numbers right now.
You know we hit 2 million.
I have a way in which we couldprobably hit 2.5 or 3 million,
which means your bonus is goingto be much larger and the board
of directors is going to loveyou.
Do you want to know how to dothat?
And they're like, oh, why Stopbeing such a dick?
Like hey, like you, you knowthis is super easy, like you
(22:53):
know, and I even call the teamleaders all the time.
You know, especially in thisvirtual space, people are
already 85 disengaged from work.
They must be even moredisengaged now that they're at
home.
Right, they might be eventhinking about other jobs.
But one quick thing you can dothat would be amazing for your
staff is to reach out to themone-on-one and be like hey, you
(23:17):
know, I know this has been atough year.
What is the work that you loveto do most at this job?
Like the work where you forgetabout time.
Marcus Buckingham refers to itas the red thread work.
Gay Hendricks refers to it asyour zone of genius.
You know that work that is justyou that, frankly, if no one
paid you, you'd still do thiswork, you know, and you ask them
(23:37):
that you know.
Okay, sweet, you love talking toclients.
You love connecting with people.
What percentage of time do youcurrently do that?
Oh, only 15%.
Is there any way in which wecan figure out how you can go
from 15 to 20%, which maybe islike one to two extra hours, and
by doing that you're actuallyhelping them get into their flow
work which actually has, youknow, exponential results on
(24:02):
productivity, because there's aripple effect on all the other
work that they're doing.
And you do the other thing,which is really powerful, where
you communicate.
Hey, I see you, I hear you andI care about you as a human
being, and this is why I want tofigure out how you can do more
of the work that makes you comealive, and when you do that,
(24:22):
you're going to reduce yourturnover.
You're going to have peoplestay longer and then you're
going to have people that aregoing to be more committed to
you.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Absolutely.
I'm reflecting, and this isgreat content.
I just remember earlier in mycareer, new HR professional, a
lot of this stuff is so heavyand the feedback that I would
get is a lot of this stuff is soheavy and the feedback that I
would get is you know, have alittle bit more fun.
And I'd look at somebody and belike, but this isn't fun.
(24:54):
I'm dealing with problemperformers.
People are mad I can't hireenough people, and even the ones
I do don't stick around longenough to you know, make a
difference.
And you know it's it, it's it.
It's really easy to lose sightof the, the fun stuff in in the
in, in kind of the muck.
So so what?
What do you do when you'reworking with teams or when
(25:17):
you're, when you're workingthrough your process, to
re-instill that sense of fun andenjoyment in work?
Speaker 1 (25:24):
I.
I think you have to tie it backto your why right?
Like, what are you doing there?
Like, why did you start in HRin the first place?
Like, let's figure that out.
You know we run a workshopcalled your Future is when your
Fun Is right, and part of thereason why I say that is, you
know Stephen Johnson talks aboutyou'll find the future where
(25:46):
people are having the most fun.
You'll find the future wherepeople are having the most fun,
and if you look at theorganizations that are most
resilient right now, that arethriving in 2020, tiktok, disney
, hulu, netflix it's becausepeople are having fun there.
Even you know and I don'tsupport Jeff Bezos at all, but
you know, when he started Amazon, he was tackling some of the
(26:08):
most interesting issues in thetech world and all the tech
heads wanted to hang out withhim because that was the most
interesting place to be.
So you have to think about thatfor you of just like, what are
the way, what are the thingsthat like, drive me right?
So in our your Future is whenyour Fun Is workshop, we
actually ask people what did youlove to do as a kid?
(26:29):
Right, and I do it with myfriend, lauren, yee, and she
goes.
You know what I love to do as akid.
I love playing sardines, whichis reverse hide-and-seek.
It's such a fun game.
Basically, somebody hides,everyone looks for that person.
If you find that person that'shidden, you hide too and then
you stack in like a pack ofsardines until finally there's
like eight people in a corner.
(26:49):
One person's like where'severybody, and everyone else is
like be quiet, don't sayanything.
You know, I've done this withadults.
It's hilarious.
We like all hid underneath ahouse, you know.
So like it's great when you'rea little tipsy too.
Anyway, so I was like what isit that you love to do?
What do you?
What do you love, right, whatdo you love about sardines?
And she was like I love thatit's creative, I love that it's
collaborative, I love that ithas connection.
(27:13):
And then we took those playvalues that she had and we were
like what of your work that youdo in a given day or in a given
week has those aspects or hasall of those aspects?
So I would challenge your staff, or your, your staff or you, to
like write down all the tasks,all the things that you do, and
(27:33):
and figure out what is.
What is it that is, is the thegood stuff, the delicious stuff,
right, and then start your daydoing that work before you do
anything else.
Because when you do that like Istart my day with a TikTok
right, like I make a TikTokvideo that has no ROI, has no
productive value, but itpositively primes my day to see
(27:57):
the day as play right.
And then my friend Desireetaught me this trick of, like
you ask this question how can itget any better than this?
So, when something good happens, or like I start my day in a
fun way and then I go, oh, howcan it get any better than this?
So, when something good happens, or like I start my day in a
fun way and then I go, ooh, howcan it get any better than this?
Ooh, well then, I was on apodcast with this this guy,
chris Lynn, and he did such africking, phenomenal interview.
(28:18):
How can it get any better thanthis?
I just got off the phone with aclient of mine and inspired her
to start making videos and takerisks.
Ooh, how can it get any betterthan this?
Now Kyle and Molly and I aretalking on the Rebel HR podcast.
Let's go.
And then you were stacking allthose positive priming moments.
Now, on the flip side, whatpeople are doing usually in a
(28:39):
workday is first they look atthe news, which actually makes
you 20 to 30% less productive,and then, when they say they
have a bad day, I challengedwhether they had a bad day.
Because what you had is you hada bad moment and, based off of
positive psychology thoughts,only last between nine seconds
and 90 seconds.
So you had a bad moment, andthen you ruminated about that
(29:01):
bad moment over and over againlike a thousand times in your
head, and then you primed yourmind to look for the next bad
moment and the next bad momentand the next bad moment until
you made up a bad day.
And it's really hard in HRbecause you get shit on all the
time, like people are alwaysthrowing all the problems your
way, so you're always feelinglike you're getting all these
(29:23):
bad moments.
So by simply flipping it andbeing like you know Ooh, let me
do something fun, how can it getany better than this?
And being curious about howyour day might go, that is how
you can change your day andpossibly change the way you work
.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Oh my gosh, I just had like a revelatory moment.
It's like sweet.
So I just heard, I heard thatand I thought it's like when you
get a new car and then you'redriving and you see that same
car everywhere now yeah.
And you never noticed the carbefore?
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Am.
I on the same page, right, thatis exactly what your brain is
doing all the time, because yourbrain is looking for patterns,
right Like it's constantlylooking for patterns to see
whether there's danger or notdanger that's what your
prefrontal cortex, or innercritic, is doing.
So when you prime your mind tolook for good patterns, things
(30:15):
happen.
Here's another tip that'sreally cool at meetings you can
actually positively prime ameeting by whoever starts the
meeting, and this is before themeeting actually starts.
Let's say the first people thatjoin the virtual call.
Let's say someone is likeshowing baby pictures or showing
their baby or something happy,or they're telling about some
happy story that happened orsome fun thing they did during
(30:37):
the weekend.
You have now primed the meetingto be positive, so the meeting
is going to be more productive.
But if the first people on thecall were complaining before
anyone joins, productivity youknow the meeting goes really
badly, drops dramatically so,and you don't even have to be
the leader of the meeting, it'sjust the first person to speak.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
So so should we just ban negative um conversations
and meetings?
Is that or the idea?
You know?
Why are we?
Speaker 1 (31:03):
complaining.
Are we complaining just tocomplain Because like that's
what we do here, or are wecomplaining?
Are we complaining just tocomplain Because, like that's
what we do here?
Or are we complaining with theidea of, like trying to solve a
problem.
Like you have had friends rightthat are that are complaining
and you're like oh, you've saidthis so many times Like you just
want to tell them, like dude,just deal with it already, break
(31:25):
up with that person or whatever.
Just you know, or whatever.
But sometimes people just wantto complain for complaint's sake
.
So it's cool if you say thatlike, hey, I just want to word
vomit right now and I just wantto complain Awesome.
But at some point then be like,okay, we're going to allow
people to complain, but then yo,now we got to actually address,
(31:45):
let's actually figure out somesolutions to this instead of
just bsing around these problemsso how do you address the, the
people?
Speaker 2 (31:54):
because I guarantee you there's some people in the
audience sitting here thinking,yeah, this sounds good, uh, this
, you know this guy sounds cooland you know this is a fun
premise, right, but how this?
This sounds a little bit fuzzyand kind of like one of these HR
initiatives.
How do you address those peoplethat are coming from a context
(32:17):
of work sucks, deal with it.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Yeah, sure, yeah.
So let's talk about examples ofsuccess, right, like?
Let's take, for example, google.
You know, with their 20% rule,they gave their staff a fifth of
their time to, uh, pursuethings that interest them as
long as it benefits theorganization from that, from
(32:43):
that um initiative.
That is where Google meet wascreated.
That is where Gmail was created.
So many of the billion-dollarventures that Google did were
because they allowed their staffto play.
Now you, as a smallerorganization, can't give your
staff a fifth of the time, butyou can find an hour to give
(33:06):
them an extra hour.
Just see, don't believe me,let's experiment with it, right,
you know?
Look at Tony Hsieh that ranZappos, like us, such a huge
loss.
That dude would pay peoplethree grand to leave his
organization, like they would bethere for a month.
And he's like, you know, if youdon't like the culture here,
(33:26):
because we are just super nerdyand we we actually are, you know
how they always say, like, bewhoever you want to be, be your
authentic self, but then theydon't follow through with it.
You know he actually allowedpeople to show up however they
wanted to show up, right, youknow?
Blue hair and all, and thenafter a month you'd be like I'm
going to give you $3,000 toleave, do you want to leave?
(33:47):
And then people actually stayedif they were really committed.
So there's many examples of whatfun actually can do for the
organization, because thinkabout the organizations that are
not having fun.
There was an organization nottoo long ago that was super
stiff, that heard these ideasand were like, oh you know, I
(34:11):
just heard about this reallysmall organization, small
company that is selling or sendmailing dvds to people, like,
can you believe that?
And then they're now talkingabout, like you know, you can
download a movie or watch it onyour computer.
That that's so dumb, right?
Yo guess what?
Blockbuster is gone now.
Because they were stiff, becausethey were like, because they
(34:33):
weren't really willing to adaptor be resilient and, frankly, a
lot of staff don't want to goback to normal, right, you know
there's going to be a drasticnew normal where we can bring
more humanity to work, becauseright now, 85% of people are
freaking, disengaged at work.
People can only focus, I think,for about two hours and 53
(34:57):
minutes of an eight-hour workday.
So, knowing this, knowing thatall these studies communicate
this, why would it be focused ontrying to get them to do the
best work that they want to do.
That actually will produce themost productivity for the
organization.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
One thing I hear a lot of is organizations say yeah
, that's great for thesecompanies that have the money or
the build outs to create a funspace, right, but we are an old
a building still in cubicles.
How do you?
You have to have the space tocultivate, play and kind of in
(35:35):
the same realm, like now thatwe're all in a virtual world.
How has that shifted?
Speaker 1 (35:40):
So I think in the virtual world this is where
there's a lot of experimentation, right?
You know, even if you can'tmove like the this really old
organization has been around fora hundred years you can have an
influence on your team.
If you have any staff, you canstart there.
You know I think it was Sinek,who was Simon Sinek who was
(36:01):
talking about it where, at thisreally bad organization, there
was one team that was doingreally innovative, creative
things, and then people wantedto get part of that team, and
then leaders, a lot of VPs, werelike what's happening with that
team?
Why are they producing at suchan exponential rate?
And then they started to adoptsome of those practices.
(36:25):
So you need to focus on what iswithin your circle of influence,
right, your circle of control,and instead of thinking like, oh
, I got to change this entireorganization, I got to change
how the CEO approaches it, justdo it for yourself.
First, identify what are thefun things that I want to do for
me, awesome, okay.
What are the fun things I wantto do for my staff, sweet, that
make them come most alive?
(36:46):
You know, how can, how can wetake a problem that we always
have and instead of doing it inthe mundane way.
You know, let's figure out amore playful, creative way of
doing it.
You know, one of the worstbrainstorming sessions you can
do is to have people go into abox room, you know, sit at a box
table and be like you have anhour, come up with your best
(37:08):
ideas.
Like, let's think, let'srethink how we're going to do a
brainstorming meeting.
You know, maybe all of you areon your phone and you're all
walking while you're on yourphone and talking, like, figure,
try out different ways ofpositively prime the meeting.
Like, just keep experimenting,because I think the biggest
problem we have is have is welack hope and we're super
(37:32):
pessimistic.
So we're like, yeah, it's nevergoing to work here.
Well, maybe it won't or maybeit will.
Why don't we try it and justsee what happens?
Speaker 2 (37:42):
So I think one of the interesting things is, as I'm
reflecting on some of thisadvice is I'm thinking about
your career path and you strikeme as an individual that you're
going to find happiness whereveryou are, and if you can't,
you're not going to stick around.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
No.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
And I think about so many people that I know who do
stick around and and just wallowin the misery and don't know
how to get out of it.
So so when we have thoseemployees that we know are just
like they hate their job,they're totally in the wrong job
, but they're effective, theyget it done.
(38:22):
How do we break through that?
How do we get through to peoplethat, hey, work doesn't have to
be painful, it's not always fun, but there should be at least a
little bit of fun.
How do we address that?
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Yeah, I think there's a few different ways to do it
right.
There's first just modeling,like are you actually having fun
at work?
Like, are you actually showinghow to do it Right?
But I think then the next partis is and I would bring this up
to staff like you know, some twoof the biggest regrets of the
dying is I worked too much.
(38:55):
And the second regret is Ididn't live.
I didn't have the courage tolive the life that I wanted to
live, but live the life thatothers expected of me.
And I would take that when yousit down with that person and
just call out the truth about it, like look, you've been here
like five years.
(39:16):
Like I know you're burned out,I know you're not happy, I know
you don't like what you're doing.
What do you like to do right?
Is there anything at this jobworth salvaging?
And if there's not, then yolet's brainstorm.
What is it that you actuallywant to do?
And in the meantime, you knowyou I'll give you some time to
(39:40):
figure that out, but you'll findthat because now you're
communicating that you careabout them, even if they don't
stay at this company, all of asudden their work gets better,
because they should, you'reshowing that you actually like
care about them.
Like you, you give a give ashit about him, right?
So, um, that has a hugeexponential like um increase in
(40:02):
in connection right there,because you're really like
calling out the elephant in theroom and, yeah, and you're
showing that that, even if itdoesn't benefit me, I'm still
looking out for you.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Absolutely.
I'm going to put that in myoffice.
I'm going to get that framed.
I give a shit about you.
That's good.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
Yeah, that would probably work at my company.
Yeah, I have a question.
It's a very selfish question,just because this has been one
of my struggles.
I've been in employers wherewe're all under one roof, it's a
lot easier to cultivate fun, aplayful culture.
Right Now I'm in anorganization where we have
several different locations andit's a lot.
It's a lot more challenging.
What advice do you have?
Speaker 1 (40:46):
I think the advice so interesting.
Usually, when people ask methat question, they're like
solve it, give me the answers.
Right, I'll take that too.
But there's somethingempowering about being like get
a bunch of the people that youknow that also care about the
same vision that you have.
That you're like we need toinfuse more play, more fun into
(41:08):
this.
We need to be more creative,because I feel like we're kind
of stuck right now.
Right, find the other peoplethat believe that like you, and
be like yo.
Let's figure it out.
Let's brainstorm this.
Let's, you know, maybe over alittle drinks, let's do have a
tipsy storm, you know, over some, you know alcohol or chocolate
or ice cream, however, you wantto do it.
And let's brainstorm thecraziest ideas of what we could
(41:30):
actually try to pull off, right,you know, and then come up with
this crazy list of ideas andthen circle a few that resonate
and then go to the bigger groupand try them out.
Or reach out to some of thosepeople that may be disengaged
and be like yo.
This is the problem we'retrying to solve.
Help us solve this.
(41:52):
So you're actually empoweringeveryone to make the decision
together, because the flip sideof that is you're like hey, I
have this fun team buildingevent that's going to fix
everything.
Or I have this fun teambuilding a game.
You know we're going to doSecret Santa.
Now, everyone's going to be allgood again and it's just like,
oh, I hate Secret Santa.
You know like let's not haveforced fun, let's actually ask
(42:12):
people do you want to have funor more fun at work?
Most of the time people aregoing to be like yeah, you know.
Okay, are you willing to figureout how to do this?
All right, you know, let'slet's take some time and let's
let's try to break this down andfigure this out.
We're all smart people here.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
Right Setting expectations that I don't want
to talk about the reasons whythis won't work.
Let's just bring some ideas andlet's talk about how we can
make them work.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
And that is an improv exercise.
Right there, the yes, and whereyou yes, and for 45, 50 minutes
where no one can criticizeanyone's ideas.
They do that in improv all thetime.
That's what keeps an improvscene going.
They never negate anything,they're always saying yes, and
this right Like oh, you knowwhat I think we should do, you
(43:07):
know, I think we should givestaff like an hour to pursue
something that they think isinteresting for like the next
month, and then, and it's justlike, oh, yeah, yes, and and
whoever comes up with like areally creative idea, let's
celebrate that person and leteveryone know that this happened
, because they devoted fivehours in the last month to this,
oh, yes, and.
And then you just keep addingon to that and just see where
(43:27):
these crazy ideas go, becauseyou'd be amazed what you're
going to be able to come up withwhen you allow yourself to not
poop on ideas.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
I think people would have a hard time with that in
the best way, just because Ithink people naturally go to yes
.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
But yes, exactly.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
It drives me nuts, but yes great.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
Actually run that in our workshop, where we have
people go and do a meeting whereit's all knows, and then we
have people go and do a meetingwhere it's yes, but, and then we
have people do a meeting andit's all no's.
And then we have people go anddo a meeting where it's yes, but
, and then we have people do ameeting and it's yes and, and
then we ask them how does itfeel in each situation?
Right, and sometimes we askpeople well, I'll ask you, molly
, what's worse, when you get astraight no or when you get a
(44:10):
yes?
Speaker 3 (44:10):
but Probably no.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
There's no right answer.
It's just like whatever onethat you feel.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
For me it'd be yes, but because it's like oh great,
here comes the argument, well,and it's like they're not even
listening to me.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
really, they're already thinking of all the ways
that it won't work Right.
Or they give you hope wherethey're like.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Yeah, we could do that, but you know, but some
people are Well, we trying that20 years ago.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Other people might see the yes but as a possibility
, like Ooh, but they didn't sayno directly, that you know.
So so again, it's just playingwith language and and being like
, hey, let's yes and and get geta little uncomfortable, you
know, because I'm tired of justhaving a bad attitude coming to
work.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
Yeah, if there's any uh, young HR professionals
listening to this or young andcareer professionals listening
to this, just know, if you takea yes but as a an approval to do
something within HR, I might,in poorly, take it from me.
I've been there, I love that, Ilove that and I, I'm just, I'm
(45:18):
sitting here and, um, I mean,this is just resonating so much.
Uh, today's been a good day.
You know, I, I today's beenreally positive and I'm just
reflecting on, okay, how did Istart?
Um, I didn't watch the news.
I turned on music when my daystarted.
I'm a very amateur musician and, uh, and I hugged my kids in
the morning before I went towork Nice, you know.
(45:39):
And it's like one of thosethings like, oh yeah, you know,
I did have a really good daytoday and it started good.
And then I think aboutyesterday wasn't so good and
it's because I turned on theCNBC and watched the stock
market.
You know, show up red Right.
So it's like, yeah, maybethere's something to this.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
And I would even do.
I do this exercise at the endof the year because I really
don't believe in resolutions.
A lot of people give up orforget.
They literally forget theirresolution three months in.
But I was like but wait aminute, there is something worth
reflecting on the year and thenplanning out the next year.
So I came up with this thingcalled the Fun Joy Play Index,
(46:18):
and it was all about likelooking back at your year and
being like what was fun aboutthis year, what was joyful about
this year, what was like one ofthe most impactful things that
happened this year?
And you can do the same thing atwork, where you're like what
were we able to overcome?
The fact that maybe ourcompany's even still around is a
(46:39):
huge accomplishment in 2020,when so many companies are going
out of business, right?
So the practice of gratitudelike so many studies have shown,
you write three grateful thingsat the beginning of the day or
at the end of the day after 30days, you are exponentially
happier.
So if you're practicing thesemethods even if they sound a
(46:59):
little woo woo with your HRstaff and and reflecting and
celebrating the accomplishmentsyou actually did make, and and
actually going back in youremail and your calendar and
you're like, oh yeah, we did dothat in January.
Wow, I can't believe we didthat.
That's actually pretty awesome.
Then you're going to actuallyfeel like you've got more done,
you know, and you builtsomething together with your
(47:21):
team.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
I am a true believer in this.
I do this every year.
I do this on a quarterly basiswith my team, and it's so
amazing every time we do itbecause, especially this year,
everybody was so down in thedumps about the year and you
look back about at everythingthat we've accomplished and you
can just it slipped like.
There were so focused on thenegative and everything that
(47:43):
went wrong.
But there was a lot tocelebrate this year as well
right, yeah, I'm, I 100 agree.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
I was on a on a walk with my son last night,
nine-year-old uh son and I was.
You know, I was talking to himabout the year and, um, you know
, just kind of that open aboutthe year and, um, you know, just
kind of that open-ended, likehey, you doing okay, um, yeah,
it's been a weird year and yeah,yeah, everything's fine and and
the conversation uh went fromyou know a point of concern to
(48:10):
talking about all the goodthings.
You know, more more family time, uh, the uh, he, he got more
screen time, he loves screentime.
He got more screen time, heloves screen time.
Nice, so you know this year wasgreat for him.
Yeah, and you know the newnormal for him is probably what
he loves to do.
Speaker 3 (48:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
Which is be on screens and create things on
screens, and he's going to be afamous YouTuber someday Nice, If
he has his way, you know.
But you know, all of thatcreativity that he embraced this
year was unlocked because ofthe situation in 2020.
So you know, there's a lot ofsilver linings this year.
I'm with you, Molly.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
And there's some resilience in being limited.
When you're when you limit orlimited in a lot of ways, you
have to get really creative,right.
Right, you know and I think itwas a study done by, I think,
hubspot that was like 63 percentof staffs you know in the
workplace say they would be moreproductive if they got more
positive feedback.
And if you think about it,anytime you usually give
(49:23):
feedback, you're giving thatlike that love sandwich where
it's like I'm really want togive you bad feedback but I'm
going to pack in some positive.
But imagine if you were justgiving just consistent positive
feedback on a regular basis overthe next like three months.
Watch what happens to yourstaff.
They are going to light up andthey're going to feel
appreciated and they're going toproduce in ways that you never
thought possible.
Speaker 2 (49:35):
I love it.
Well, we are unfortunatelygetting close to time.
Uh, if, if we were meeting faceto face, I'd be like let's just
, let's have another round andgo another three hours here.
But I want to be respectful ofyour time, so, uh, we are going
to move into the uh, hr flashround.
Oh, I love the flash here.
We go all right.
Flash round one.
What are you reading right now?
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Oh, I am reading two books how to Live a Good Life by
Jonathan Fields.
I'm reading that in a book cluband I'm reading Anand
Giridagas's book on Winners.
Take All, which is arguingshould billionaires exist while
people are still in poverty?
Speaker 2 (50:19):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
That's a whole other show, I think.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
Who should we be listening to?
Speaker 1 (50:29):
Oh, interesting.
Well, I'll answer it in twoways, right?
The first way is if 2020 hastaught me anything, it's that no
one knows what they're doingand we're all making it up as we
go along.
So the first person you need tobe listening to is yourself,
like, practicing, strengtheninglistening to your inner child,
(50:50):
your intuition, because you haveall the answers that you need.
You have all the answers thatyou need, like I say this all
the time, you know, um, adviceonly resonate, the advice I give
people only resonates with you,because you've already given
that advice to yourself and I'mjust saying it in a different
way.
So that would be the firstperson that you need to listen
to yourself.
(51:11):
Um, if I was thinking of us, ofanother person, I don't know,
I'm really vibing with JonathanFields.
He runs this phenomenal podcastcalled the Good Life Project
and I just was on his podcastbecause he did a show just
called the Hug and it was allabout sharing stories of
gratitude during this reallytough time and unity and being
(51:33):
like how can we give a virtual,virtual hug to people?
Because this, you know, thishas been a really tough year for
a lot of people.
So, jonathan Fields, Love it.
Speaker 2 (51:43):
You might have to check him out.
I am not familiar, so it soundslike there's some good content
there.
Last question this is a toughone how can our listeners
connect with you?
Speaker 1 (51:54):
So if you want to see my ridiculous videos, my handle
is Jeff Harry PlaysJ-E-F-F-H-A-R-R-Y-P-L-A-Y-S.
Or you can come to my website,rediscoveryourplaycom, where I
(52:17):
have a bunch of play exercisethat teams can actually do, as
well as individuals, to figureout who you are and how you can
play more at work.
Or you could just hop on a callwith me when you click that
let's Play button and we canfigure out how you can kick ass
in this world and make a muchmore fun, psychologically safe
place for all of us to work.
Speaker 2 (52:32):
Love it.
Great, great conversation.
We'll have all those details inthe show notes, but we
definitely have gained a lotfrom this conversation, a lot of
things we can take away for usin HR and some ways to rebel
against some of the systems,right.
Speaker 1 (52:50):
Let's go.
Speaker 2 (52:51):
Got to tie it all together.
Speaker 1 (52:52):
Hey, thanks so much, Kyle and Molly.
This has been super fun.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
Same here.
Thanks again, looking forwardto continuing to follow you and
learn from you.
Thanks, jeff.
All right, that does it for theRebel HR podcast.
Big thank you to our guests.
Follow us on Facebook at RebelHR Podcast, twitter at Rebel HR
Guy, or see our website atrebelhumanresourcescom.
The views and opinionsexpressed by Rebel HR Podcast
(53:19):
are those of the authors and donot necessarily reflect the
official policy or position ofany of the organizations that we
are in.
Speaker 3 (53:26):
No animals were harmed during the filming of
this podcast.
You are stacking all those positive priming moments.
Now, on the flip side, whatpeople are doing usually in a
workday is first they look atthe news, which actually makes
you 20% to 30% less productive,and then, when they say they
have a bad day, I challengewhether they had a bad day,
because what you had is you hada bad moment.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
This is the Rebel HR Podcast.
If you're a professionallooking for innovative,
thought-provoking information inthe world of human resources,
this is the right podcast foryou.
Alright, Rebel Human Resourceslistener.
I am extremely pumped up fortoday's show.
(00:42):
We've got a great guest withsome fascinating innovations
that I think you should listento.
So I'd like to introduce youall to Jeff Harry.
Jeff shows individuals andcompanies how to tap into their
true selves to feel theirhappiest and most fulfilled, all
by playing.
He's got a bunch of awesomeresults behind his name Top 100
(01:08):
HR influencers by Engagedly TopHR influencers to watch by
Bamboo HR.
I don't have enough time toread them all, so I am going to
let Jeff talk about some of that.
Welcome to the show, Jeff.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Hey, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
I'm super amped talk about some of that.
So welcome to the show, jeff.
Hey, thanks so much for havingme.
I'm super amped, me too.
Me too.
I think this is perfect.
It's been an interesting year,2020, and it'll be nice to focus
on some fun.
Yeah, with us today is Molly,our esteemed co-host, and she
will be asking some questions aswell, so let's get started All
(01:46):
right.
All right, jeff, so I will letyou give our listeners a little
bit of your background.
Why don't you tell us aboutyourself?
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Sure, so I'll tell you my like Batman origin story.
So do you remember the movieBig with Tom Hanks?
You ever see that movie?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, I love that movie.
You put the thing in the gameand then he grew up.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Right.
He grew up.
So I saw that movie in thirdgrade and Tom Hanks literally
dances up on a piano and thenthey offer him a job to work in
the toy industry.
And as soon as I saw that I waslike dude, that is exactly what
I'm going to do with my life.
So I started writing toycompanies in third grade and I
just did not stop, and they mostof the time I just get
(02:33):
rejection letters back because Ithink they thought I was older
than I actually was.
And a company just wrote meback one time and was like you
should go into mechanicalengineering, and I really should
not have listened to them.
But that's what I did.
So I did that, graduated andthen got in the toy industry.
And I don't know if you've evergotten what you've always
(02:54):
wanted and then been sodisappointed when you get there.
But that's what was happening.
I was in a cubicle.
The walls were padded, whichyou're like why are these walls
padded?
You know you know no fun, noplay, no adults that are
high-fiving, you know no toys,no kids.
And I was like what am I doinghere?
(03:14):
And I remember having my littlequarter-life crisis moving from
New York to the Bay Area, sanFrancisco Bay Area, and then you
know, piddling around for alittle bit and then bumping into
an organization that wasteaching kids engineering with
Lego and they basically werejust playing for a living,
paying 150 bucks a week like ajoke of a job.
(03:34):
But they were playing and I waslike I want to get paid to play
.
So I stuck with them and wegrew it into like the largest
Lego inspired STEM organization,like in the US.
But the way we did it was wejust played, like we had no idea
what we were doing.
We made it up as we went along.
We pick cities because wethought they were fun.
(03:55):
We had no business plan, youknow.
We hired people because theywere fun.
We experimented, we failedmiserably all the time.
But we got so big in the Bayarea At one point we were
teaching 100,000 kids a yearthat Silicon Valley started to
pay attention to us Facebook,google, adobe, netflix, all of
(04:15):
them and they wanted us to runteam building events.
And we were like, yeah, ofcourse we run team building
events.
Even though we didn't, we justsaid yes to everything, right.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
It's like, of course we do.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yes, we've been doing that for years.
And then for the next, likeeight, nine years I ran team
building events for, like someof the top tech companies like
in the world.
But you know at the same timethat they talked about
innovation, disruption, agile,all those buzzwords, right.
They had not created a safe,psychologically you know,
(04:47):
comfortable work environment forpeople to play and take risks,
and the reason why is theyweren't having the harder
conversations, like how to dealwith toxicity at work, how to
address racism at work, how todeal with office politics, how
to have a hard conversation, howto get your staff and flow like
all of that, how to deal withoffice politics, how to have a
hard conversation, how to getyour staff and flow like all of
that.
How to deal with your innercritic.
So I created Rediscover yourPlay as a way of combining
(05:11):
positive psychology and play totackle some of a company's
biggest, most challenging issues.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
So you got exactly what you wanted, and you hated
every minute of it.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Is that fair yeah?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
So I'm just recalling the movie.
So basically, the people whowere classified as the bad guys
were like, just like what it'sactually like to work in
corporate America, right?
Speaker 1 (05:37):
exactly Right, because, like you never know
right, like you always dreamit's going to be amazing, right,
like you, you always drink it'sgoing to be amazing.
And then you get to corporateAmerica and you were like, where
did all the?
Why is everyone's energy justbeing sucked out of them, like
your soul is being sucked out ofyou?
I remember once I left a job ina dramatic way.
(05:58):
There was this KaiserPermanente, like hospital job.
You know.
I was like just doing adminwork or something there.
I quit right on the spot.
And I remember, as I was leaving, I looked at a bunch of my
former colleagues, former right,um, and they were like what are
you doing?
Where are you going?
Why are you leaving?
And I was like we just spokelast week about how you've been
(06:19):
wanting to leave for five years.
I'm just taking your advice anddoing it instead of like dying
a slow death here, you know.
But they were like no, staywith us, stay in the suffering.
And I'm like nah, dude, I'mgood, I am good.
And I think that was the lastcubicle job yeah, I ever had.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Good for you for taking that leap.
Most people don't I know it'sso sad.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
It really is, really is I just remember, you know, if
we're talking movies here, thethe one that resonates the most
with me is office space oh, yes,but it's it's like I love that
movie.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
I still love that movie I still watch clips every
week once in a while.
I'll just watch clips of of himwhen he, like uh, talks to the
two hr guys that are lettingeveryone go and he's, like I do
basically like 17 minutes ofwork a week middle management
potential yes I'm not great atmovie quotes or anything, but
(07:20):
the movie that's sticking out tothe time of year is office
christmas party oh yeah, you'rethe crazy hr lady molly, for
suresee, I need to watch that I
haven't seen that when you're inhr, it's great that's a that
you know that.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
I think that is probably the most um accurate
depiction of an hr professionalthat I've seen on screen.
Um, If you haven't seen it, ifyou're in HR it's required
viewing Okay.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Don't watch it with your kids.
Let's just say, okay, I need towatch it.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Molly, you describe it.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Don't watch it with your kids.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
No, I heard it's quite raunchy.
Very much so, but it's fun,which is great because this year
, like people are doing itvirtual, so we're not going to
have as many of those issues.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
As long as everybody wears pants.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
That's asking a lot.
That's asking a lot.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Okay, jeff, so you had said you started doing team
building events.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
I know there's a lot of organizations that of course,
they want to do a team buildingevent.
They're always looking forthings, but I also feel like a
lot of organizations get itwrong.
Where and why do people get itwrong and what is your advice?
What's your best team builder?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah.
So I actually stopped doinglike the stuff I now do.
You know, I actually stoppeddoing team building events
because I felt like they werethey're just kind of like
bowling Right.
They're just kind of likebowling right, like they're like
, hey, you feel good for just alittle bit and then you, you
know, then you go back towhatever you're doing, and I
think I think where people getit wrong um, companies get it
wrong is they bring some teambuilding organization in and
(08:58):
then they are thinking likeafterwards, everything's going
to just change, right, you know.
And and the fact fact is, ifyou're not taking risks and
trying to have hardconversations or trying to go
somewhere with it, then it'sjust going to be something happy
, like going to play pool orping pong, which is totally fine
and people connect that way aswell, but you're not really
(09:21):
going to go deep, deep right.
So I think people have toadjust their expectations of
what they actually expect from ateam building event.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah, I actually I am not a big fan of like the let's
do the one-off.
Like trust falls in the office.
Right, right.
You know like every time I'vetried to do something like that
in my career, everybody hasliterally like they hear it and
they're like ugh, yeah, why dopeople say that they do that
(09:53):
because it's forced.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Fun, right.
Right, the whole idea of play,if you think about it, in a
playground, a kid has the optionto play or not play.
They have the option to dowhatever they want.
They could just observe fromthe sidelines.
But with, I think, a lot ofteam building events, you know,
and a lot of times when, likethe HR staff's, like we're going
to, we're going to become ateam, you know, like I know, we
(10:17):
haven't talked at all the wholeyear, but now, this hour, we're
going to all get along.
It's just like dude.
Where we're going to all getalong.
It's just like dude.
This is just come on, man.
I remember once running a teambuilding event for a biomedical
company that shall not be namedand it was at a winery, and this
is when I was still doing theLego gig.
(10:37):
And I remember, during the teambuilding event, where they're
all building something together,right, and then the boss turns
to everyone.
He goes get away, everyone,move back.
I got this and he just movedlike 20 VP executives that are
like managing multimilliondollar, if not billion dollar
(10:58):
deals, and it was just likeeveryone, move away.
I'm going to work on this bymyself.
So 20 people who were at thewinery just started drinking
wine because they're like, well,I don't want to hang out with
this guy.
And then during the debrief,they were like what happened
there?
And he goes.
Well, the reason why I had todo that was because I have a lot
of experience with Lego, sothat's why I had to step up and
(11:19):
it was like, oh my gosh guys,this is it.
Gosh guys, like this is it.
This is the problem.
I can't help you with this.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
I can't, I can't like .
This is deep seated, so thatwas part of the reason why I
started.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Rediscover your Play, because I was like yo.
We need to talk about toxicityat work.
We need to talk about officepolitics, like we need to have
that hard conversation becauseright now we're just tiptoeing
around it and it sucks.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
The elephant, the room, yeah, so how do you?
How do you do that?
Speaker 1 (11:49):
oh which which one talking about office politics or
toxic people, because I can getinto the toxic people how do
you love me, a toxic person yeahgive all the good stories you
do get all the good stories.
So here I'll go through, likethe you know, because we go
through a bunch of differentsteps.
So I think you know, wheneverI'm talking about toxic people,
(12:13):
we have to first put it intocontext.
Right, like I ran this workshopit's called Dealing with
A-Holes at Work Through Play,like that literally is the name
of the workshop.
And I did it with my friend,gary Ware, and we never thought
anyone would say yes to this.
Right, like why would anyonesay yes to it?
But we applied to some of thetop conferences, like like in
the country, and then, and thenthey were like, yes, we need
(12:34):
this.
So then we were like, oh sweet.
So then we like traveled toAustralia to do it and we did it
right before, you know, rightbefore quarantine, quarantine.
And while we were running it inaustralia, like people were
both laughing and crying duringthe workshop.
But the main reason they weredoing that is because a lot of
them did not realize that, thatthey, they thought they were the
(12:56):
only ones, they thought thatthey were the only ones that
left a job because of a toxicperson.
And then we shared, like thisstudy done by Sherm about how,
like I think October 2019, theydid this study where $223
billion has been lost by fortune500 companies alone just in the
last five years due to toxicpeople.
(13:18):
And these are only thecompanies that are willing to
admit it.
Right, so it must be even alarger amount of money, but 223
billion, fricking dollars.
So it's just like, why are weletting toxic people, just like,
run amok at our companies?
Right, so, you know, when werun the workshop, we're like
first, it's like listen, this isall about setting boundaries
(13:39):
and like being very clear aboutthem.
So our first suggestion this iswe go from easiest to hardest,
right?
So easiest is that toxic personis taking up a lot of time and
meetings, right, they're suckingthe energy, sucking the soul
out of the meeting.
They're talking 60 to 80% ofthe meeting.
So I always recommend likelisten, we got to start
(14:00):
organizing, right?
So, hey, kyle, molly, the nexttime you're speaking up and that
guy cuts you off, I'm going tobe like whoa, whoa, whoa, chad.
Sorry, if your name's Chad, I'msorry, but I'm going to use you
as the a-hole in this example.
Hey, chad, kyle was stillsharing something.
Can we hear what he has to say?
Wait, can we hear more fromMolly, because if Molly hasn't
been able to speak up yet, youknow, and and we start to occupy
(14:24):
the meeting back, and this issomething you do over the next
three to six months, where youare slowly taking over right and
not letting this persondominate the meeting.
So that's the easiest one.
The second one is actuallyconfronting that toxic person
like head on, and that's notconfronting them and attacking
their behavior, but you are ornot attacking their behavior,
(14:45):
but you are not attacking theircharacter, but you are
addressing their behavior andthe impact that it's having.
So I'd be like hey, chad, youknow, when you cut off Molly,
when she was in the middle ofsaying something, you know, not
only were you communicating thatyou didn't want to hear from
her, but you were alsocommunicating to Kyle and myself
(15:05):
and everyone else here that youdidn't want to hear.
What we had to say Is that theintent?
Was that your intent?
You know, because that's theimpact you're having.
And then just see, because alot of toxic people are like
engineers that just have badcommunication skills and they
might not know Right, but say,for example, they're like hey,
man, f f you, I'll do whatever Iwant.
My name's chad.
(15:25):
Okay, all right, let's dealwith it.
So then the next thing obviouslyis like, not just approaching
their supervisor or theirsupervisor supervisor, if
they're you know a-holes but butwhen you approach them,
approaching it from the thecontext of what impact they're
having, it's just like listen, Iknow Chad is the brilliant jerk
(15:46):
.
He brings in $700,000 a yearright In revenue, or whatever
that case may be.
Simon Sinek talks a lot abouthow the brilliant jerk is never
wanted on the Navy SEALs.
The Navy SEALs will never takethe bravest person, they'll
never take the most athletic orthe smartest, because if they're
the brilliant jerk, they'regoing to destroy the team.
(16:08):
So when you say, hey, chad hasbeen bringing in all these
revenue, but he's also causedthree people to quit, which
actually has cost us a milliondollars, we're actually losing
$300,000 by keeping Chad.
So can we address this person'sbehavior because he's causing
this impact?
And when you say it like that,then they really have a choice
(16:30):
Like are we going to, you know,go with the values that we claim
, we say we're doing, or arethey going to be hypocritical at
that point and and and supportChad?
And if they support Chad, atthat point, you know, maybe this
is not the right place for you.
But then the hardest way ofdealing with a toxic person is
(16:51):
you actually have to addressyour own inner Chad, your own
inner toxic person, your owninner a-hole, like your own
inner, you know, critic, right,because there's a reason why
Chad triggers you.
Maybe you think you're animposter, maybe you think you
shouldn't get paid as much ashim, maybe you think you
shouldn't be speaking up at work, right, or at a meeting.
(17:13):
But if you're like, wait aminute, like no way dude, like
Chad's an idiot, like Idefinitely should be his boss, I
definitely should be paiddouble his salary.
You know, I definitely am notan imposter, I kick ass at this
job.
And you actually believe thatthe next time Chad is super rude
to you, you just turn to himand you're just like Chad don't
ever speak to me in that way.
(17:33):
And then, once they do that,it's just like oh, molly just
stepped up to Chad.
And then Kyle's like man.
I'm going to step up to Chad.
And then Jeff's like I'mstepping up to Chad too, I'm not
going to tolerate this.
And then, all of a sudden,everyone's stepping up to Chad
and he has a choice.
He either changes his behaviorand gets his stuff together, his
shit together, or he leaves.
(17:54):
And that's what's happening,because you're sucking the
energy out of that toxic persondamn Chad.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
I know, molly.
I have a question for you am IChad?
Speaker 1 (18:07):
you do interrupt me quite a bit.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I do interrupt.
Maybe I need to be the one toshut up.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
No.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
We all got a little Chad in us maybe.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
We all got a little Chad in us.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Sorry to any listener named Chad.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Yeah, I'm so sorry, I actually wrestle with this a
lot, like do you think Chad istoxic at the core, like most of
the time?
Can you change a Chad?
Do they change you can?
Speaker 1 (18:35):
You can change a Chad .
The question is is, how longare you willing to tolerate it?
Right, I had a Chad at one ofmy jobs.
He didn't change for five years.
Like like he had to bereprimanded numerous times and
it was about to the point wherehe was going to get fired and
then he, he got help, you know.
Then he like started seeing atherapist and addressing stuff,
(18:56):
but like, if you're willing toput in that work, you know, or
like setting that boundary.
But I think also we all want tobe the hero in our story, so we
want ch Chad to be the villainand sometimes Chad isn't the
villain, right, like sometimeshe just like sucks at
communicating.
So we have to feel what is itlike to be that person Like.
(19:26):
Some people are like, ooh, Ilike it, and others are like, oh
, get this off me.
Like I never want to be thismean, right, but it's
interesting just to put yourselfin that person's shoes, right.
And then and then we practiceactually role-playing, like how
would you have this hardconversation with this person?
Because, guess what, it's notjust going to be one
conversation, it's going to beone over and over again for like
over a year before you finallymaybe make some inroads.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
I see this a lot with leaders.
So they bring on like a newhire and they're just not
performing where they need toperform.
So leaders are instantly like,well, this guy doesn't give a
crap, or this Chad is, he's nota good fit.
Chad's being a jerk, instead oftruly asking the hard questions
to themselves or admitting thatthey can't get Chad where he
(20:12):
needs to go.
Right, right, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Right and I think about you know, just in the
context of you know, personalexperience.
A lot of these people Chad's umare jerks because they're,
they've been rewarded to exhibitthat behavior either be
aggressive and drive sales andbe pushy, and they get the
(20:39):
promotions and the raises andthe recognition, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
So so that's where, like, you have to slowly change
that culture by challenging thatright.
I know so many salespeople thatare just like that and maybe
that works in certain realms.
But I remember talking to thisone guy and he knew it.
He was just like yeah, I knowI'm an a-hole, I don't really
care and I know it's just like.
Well, do you know the impactyou're having?
(21:03):
He's like look, it works, andas long as it works, I'm going
to keep doing it.
So everyone else has to make itseem, make it so that it
doesn't work anymore, right?
Like they keep getting rewardedfor that, they keep getting
their bonuses, even though theyget complaints all the time.
So why should they change,right?
Speaker 3 (21:24):
So in HR, in the HR space, a lot of us sometimes not
me, but there are a lot of HRindividuals that have to deal
with the Chad that is, let's say, the CEO.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Would your advice change or be any different for
that HR individual?
Speaker 1 (21:44):
like what power dynamics exist.
Because, I mean, we have to becareful sometimes, right,
because sometimes we don't wantto speak up to the person
because we're like that personis just going to fire us.
And that might be true or itmight not be true.
You have to, you have to gaugethat for yourself.
But if someone that is like a10 year, like it's been part of
HR for a while, and canrepresent the group and knows
(22:07):
that you know they have cover,right, they have other VPs that
are going to vouch for them, sothat even if that CEO snaps and
is like, oh, get rid of Kyle,because you know he challenged
me, you know, you know you'renot going to get removed, then
it's worth challenging that CEOand then again approaching it
from the standpoint of like,listen, ceo, you know our sales
(22:31):
numbers right now.
You know we hit 2 million.
I have a way in which we couldprobably hit 2.5 or 3 million,
which means your bonus is goingto be much larger and the board
of directors is going to loveyou.
Do you want to know how to dothat?
And they're like, oh, why Stopbeing such a dick?
Like hey, like you, you knowthis is super easy, like you
(22:53):
know, and I even call the teamleaders all the time.
You know, especially in thisvirtual space, people are
already 85 disengaged from work.
They must be even moredisengaged now that they're at
home.
Right, they might be eventhinking about other jobs.
But one quick thing you can dothat would be amazing for your
staff is to reach out to themone-on-one and be like hey, you
(23:17):
know, I know this has been atough year.
What is the work that you loveto do most at this job?
Like the work where you forgetabout time.
Marcus Buckingham refers to itas the red thread work.
Gay Hendricks refers to it asyour zone of genius.
You know that work that is justyou that, frankly, if no one
paid you, you'd still do thiswork, you know, and you ask them
(23:37):
that you know.
Okay, sweet, you love talking toclients.
You love connecting with people.
What percentage of time do youcurrently do that?
Oh, only 15%.
Is there any way in which wecan figure out how you can go
from 15 to 20%, which maybe islike one to two extra hours, and
by doing that you're actuallyhelping them get into their flow
work which actually has, youknow, exponential results on
(24:02):
productivity, because there's aripple effect on all the other
work that they're doing.
And you do the other thing,which is really powerful, where
you communicate.
Hey, I see you, I hear you andI care about you as a human
being, and this is why I want tofigure out how you can do more
of the work that makes you comealive, and when you do that,
(24:22):
you're going to reduce yourturnover.
You're going to have peoplestay longer and then you're
going to have people that aregoing to be more committed to
you.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Absolutely.
I'm reflecting, and this isgreat content.
I just remember earlier in mycareer, new HR professional, a
lot of this stuff is so heavyand the feedback that I would
get is a lot of this stuff is soheavy and the feedback that I
would get is you know, have alittle bit more fun.
And I'd look at somebody and belike, but this isn't fun.
(24:54):
I'm dealing with problemperformers.
People are mad I can't hireenough people, and even the ones
I do don't stick around longenough to you know, make a
difference.
And you know it's it, it's it.
It's really easy to lose sightof the, the fun stuff in in the
in, in kind of the muck.
So so what?
What do you do when you'reworking with teams or when
(25:17):
you're, when you're workingthrough your process, to
re-instill that sense of fun andenjoyment in work?
Speaker 1 (25:24):
I.
I think you have to tie it backto your why right?
Like, what are you doing there?
Like, why did you start in HRin the first place?
Like, let's figure that out.
You know we run a workshopcalled your Future is when your
Fun Is right, and part of thereason why I say that is, you
know Stephen Johnson talks aboutyou'll find the future where
(25:46):
people are having the most fun.
You'll find the future wherepeople are having the most fun,
and if you look at theorganizations that are most
resilient right now, that arethriving in 2020, tiktok, disney
, hulu, netflix it's becausepeople are having fun there.
Even you know and I don'tsupport Jeff Bezos at all, but
you know, when he started Amazon, he was tackling some of the
(26:08):
most interesting issues in thetech world and all the tech
heads wanted to hang out withhim because that was the most
interesting place to be.
So you have to think about thatfor you of just like, what are
the way, what are the thingsthat like, drive me right?
So in our your Future is whenyour Fun Is workshop, we
actually ask people what did youlove to do as a kid?
(26:29):
Right, and I do it with myfriend, lauren, yee, and she
goes.
You know what I love to do as akid.
I love playing sardines, whichis reverse hide-and-seek.
It's such a fun game.
Basically, somebody hides,everyone looks for that person.
If you find that person that'shidden, you hide too and then
you stack in like a pack ofsardines until finally there's
like eight people in a corner.
(26:49):
One person's like where'severybody, and everyone else is
like be quiet, don't sayanything.
You know, I've done this withadults.
It's hilarious.
We like all hid underneath ahouse, you know.
So like it's great when you'rea little tipsy too.
Anyway, so I was like what isit that you love to do?
What do you?
What do you love, right, whatdo you love about sardines?
And she was like I love thatit's creative, I love that it's
collaborative, I love that ithas connection.
(27:13):
And then we took those playvalues that she had and we were
like what of your work that youdo in a given day or in a given
week has those aspects or hasall of those aspects?
So I would challenge your staff, or your, your staff or you, to
like write down all the tasks,all the things that you do, and
(27:33):
and figure out what is.
What is it that is, is the thegood stuff, the delicious stuff,
right, and then start your daydoing that work before you do
anything else.
Because when you do that like Istart my day with a TikTok
right, like I make a TikTokvideo that has no ROI, has no
productive value, but itpositively primes my day to see
(27:57):
the day as play right.
And then my friend Desireetaught me this trick of, like
you ask this question how can itget any better than this?
So, when something good happens, or like I start my day in a
fun way and then I go, oh, howcan it get any better than this?
So, when something good happens, or like I start my day in a
fun way and then I go, ooh, howcan it get any better than this?
Ooh, well then, I was on apodcast with this this guy,
chris Lynn, and he did such africking, phenomenal interview.
(28:18):
How can it get any better thanthis?
I just got off the phone with aclient of mine and inspired her
to start making videos and takerisks.
Ooh, how can it get any betterthan this?
Now Kyle and Molly and I aretalking on the Rebel HR podcast.
Let's go.
And then you were stacking allthose positive priming moments.
Now, on the flip side, whatpeople are doing usually in a
(28:39):
workday is first they look atthe news, which actually makes
you 20 to 30% less productive,and then, when they say they
have a bad day, I challengedwhether they had a bad day.
Because what you had is you hada bad moment and, based off of
positive psychology thoughts,only last between nine seconds
and 90 seconds.
So you had a bad moment, andthen you ruminated about that
(29:01):
bad moment over and over againlike a thousand times in your
head, and then you primed yourmind to look for the next bad
moment and the next bad momentand the next bad moment until
you made up a bad day.
And it's really hard in HRbecause you get shit on all the
time, like people are alwaysthrowing all the problems your
way, so you're always feelinglike you're getting all these
(29:23):
bad moments.
So by simply flipping it andbeing like you know Ooh, let me
do something fun, how can it getany better than this?
And being curious about howyour day might go, that is how
you can change your day andpossibly change the way you work
.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Oh my gosh, I just had like a revelatory moment.
It's like sweet.
So I just heard, I heard thatand I thought it's like when you
get a new car and then you'redriving and you see that same
car everywhere now yeah.
And you never noticed the carbefore?
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Am.
I on the same page, right, thatis exactly what your brain is
doing all the time, because yourbrain is looking for patterns,
right Like it's constantlylooking for patterns to see
whether there's danger or notdanger that's what your
prefrontal cortex, or innercritic, is doing.
So when you prime your mind tolook for good patterns, things
(30:15):
happen.
Here's another tip that'sreally cool at meetings you can
actually positively prime ameeting by whoever starts the
meeting, and this is before themeeting actually starts.
Let's say the first people thatjoin the virtual call.
Let's say someone is likeshowing baby pictures or showing
their baby or something happy,or they're telling about some
happy story that happened orsome fun thing they did during
(30:37):
the weekend.
You have now primed the meetingto be positive, so the meeting
is going to be more productive.
But if the first people on thecall were complaining before
anyone joins, productivity youknow the meeting goes really
badly, drops dramatically so,and you don't even have to be
the leader of the meeting, it'sjust the first person to speak.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
So so should we just ban negative um conversations
and meetings?
Is that or the idea?
You know?
Why are we?
Speaker 1 (31:03):
complaining.
Are we complaining just tocomplain Because like that's
what we do here, or are wecomplaining?
Are we complaining just tocomplain Because, like that's
what we do here?
Or are we complaining with theidea of, like trying to solve a
problem.
Like you have had friends rightthat are that are complaining
and you're like oh, you've saidthis so many times Like you just
want to tell them, like dude,just deal with it already, break
(31:25):
up with that person or whatever.
Just you know, or whatever.
But sometimes people just wantto complain for complaint's sake
.
So it's cool if you say thatlike, hey, I just want to word
vomit right now and I just wantto complain Awesome.
But at some point then be like,okay, we're going to allow
people to complain, but then yo,now we got to actually address,
(31:45):
let's actually figure out somesolutions to this instead of
just bsing around these problemsso how do you address the, the
people?
Speaker 2 (31:54):
because I guarantee you there's some people in the
audience sitting here thinking,yeah, this sounds good, uh, this
, you know this guy sounds cooland you know this is a fun
premise, right, but how this?
This sounds a little bit fuzzyand kind of like one of these HR
initiatives.
How do you address those peoplethat are coming from a context
(32:17):
of work sucks, deal with it.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Yeah, sure, yeah.
So let's talk about examples ofsuccess, right, like?
Let's take, for example, google.
You know, with their 20% rule,they gave their staff a fifth of
their time to, uh, pursuethings that interest them as
long as it benefits theorganization from that, from
(32:43):
that um initiative.
That is where Google meet wascreated.
That is where Gmail was created.
So many of the billion-dollarventures that Google did were
because they allowed their staffto play.
Now you, as a smallerorganization, can't give your
staff a fifth of the time, butyou can find an hour to give
(33:06):
them an extra hour.
Just see, don't believe me,let's experiment with it, right,
you know?
Look at Tony Hsieh that ranZappos, like us, such a huge
loss.
That dude would pay peoplethree grand to leave his
organization, like they would bethere for a month.
And he's like, you know, if youdon't like the culture here,
(33:26):
because we are just super nerdyand we we actually are, you know
how they always say, like, bewhoever you want to be, be your
authentic self, but then theydon't follow through with it.
You know he actually allowedpeople to show up however they
wanted to show up, right, youknow?
Blue hair and all, and thenafter a month you'd be like I'm
going to give you $3,000 toleave, do you want to leave?
(33:47):
And then people actually stayedif they were really committed.
So there's many examples of whatfun actually can do for the
organization, because thinkabout the organizations that are
not having fun.
There was an organization nottoo long ago that was super
stiff, that heard these ideasand were like, oh you know, I
(34:11):
just heard about this reallysmall organization, small
company that is selling or sendmailing dvds to people, like,
can you believe that?
And then they're now talkingabout, like you know, you can
download a movie or watch it onyour computer.
That that's so dumb, right?
Yo guess what?
Blockbuster is gone now.
Because they were stiff, becausethey were like, because they
(34:33):
weren't really willing to adaptor be resilient and, frankly, a
lot of staff don't want to goback to normal, right, you know
there's going to be a drasticnew normal where we can bring
more humanity to work, becauseright now, 85% of people are
freaking, disengaged at work.
People can only focus, I think,for about two hours and 53
(34:57):
minutes of an eight-hour workday.
So, knowing this, knowing thatall these studies communicate
this, why would it be focused ontrying to get them to do the
best work that they want to do.
That actually will produce themost productivity for the
organization.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
One thing I hear a lot of is organizations say yeah
, that's great for thesecompanies that have the money or
the build outs to create a funspace, right, but we are an old
a building still in cubicles.
How do you?
You have to have the space tocultivate, play and kind of in
(35:35):
the same realm, like now thatwe're all in a virtual world.
How has that shifted?
Speaker 1 (35:40):
So I think in the virtual world this is where
there's a lot of experimentation, right?
You know, even if you can'tmove like the this really old
organization has been around fora hundred years you can have an
influence on your team.
If you have any staff, you canstart there.
You know I think it was Sinek,who was Simon Sinek who was
(36:01):
talking about it where, at thisreally bad organization, there
was one team that was doingreally innovative, creative
things, and then people wantedto get part of that team, and
then leaders, a lot of VPs, werelike what's happening with that
team?
Why are they producing at suchan exponential rate?
And then they started to adoptsome of those practices.
(36:25):
So you need to focus on what iswithin your circle of influence,
right, your circle of control,and instead of thinking like, oh
, I got to change this entireorganization, I got to change
how the CEO approaches it, justdo it for yourself.
First, identify what are thefun things that I want to do for
me, awesome, okay.
What are the fun things I wantto do for my staff, sweet, that
make them come most alive?
(36:46):
You know, how can, how can wetake a problem that we always
have and instead of doing it inthe mundane way.
You know, let's figure out amore playful, creative way of
doing it.
You know, one of the worstbrainstorming sessions you can
do is to have people go into abox room, you know, sit at a box
table and be like you have anhour, come up with your best
(37:08):
ideas.
Like, let's think, let'srethink how we're going to do a
brainstorming meeting.
You know, maybe all of you areon your phone and you're all
walking while you're on yourphone and talking, like, figure,
try out different ways ofpositively prime the meeting.
Like, just keep experimenting,because I think the biggest
problem we have is have is welack hope and we're super
(37:32):
pessimistic.
So we're like, yeah, it's nevergoing to work here.
Well, maybe it won't or maybeit will.
Why don't we try it and justsee what happens?
Speaker 2 (37:42):
So I think one of the interesting things is, as I'm
reflecting on some of thisadvice is I'm thinking about
your career path and you strikeme as an individual that you're
going to find happiness whereveryou are, and if you can't,
you're not going to stick around.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
No.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
And I think about so many people that I know who do
stick around and and just wallowin the misery and don't know
how to get out of it.
So so when we have thoseemployees that we know are just
like they hate their job,they're totally in the wrong job
, but they're effective, theyget it done.
(38:22):
How do we break through that?
How do we get through to peoplethat, hey, work doesn't have to
be painful, it's not always fun, but there should be at least a
little bit of fun.
How do we address that?
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Yeah, I think there's a few different ways to do it
right.
There's first just modeling,like are you actually having fun
at work?
Like, are you actually showinghow to do it Right?
But I think then the next partis is and I would bring this up
to staff like you know, some twoof the biggest regrets of the
dying is I worked too much.
(38:55):
And the second regret is Ididn't live.
I didn't have the courage tolive the life that I wanted to
live, but live the life thatothers expected of me.
And I would take that when yousit down with that person and
just call out the truth about it, like look, you've been here
like five years.
(39:16):
Like I know you're burned out,I know you're not happy, I know
you don't like what you're doing.
What do you like to do right?
Is there anything at this jobworth salvaging?
And if there's not, then yolet's brainstorm.
What is it that you actuallywant to do?
And in the meantime, you knowyou I'll give you some time to
(39:40):
figure that out, but you'll findthat because now you're
communicating that you careabout them, even if they don't
stay at this company, all of asudden their work gets better,
because they should, you'reshowing that you actually like
care about them.
Like you, you give a give ashit about him, right?
So, um, that has a hugeexponential like um increase in
(40:02):
in connection right there,because you're really like
calling out the elephant in theroom and, yeah, and you're
showing that that, even if itdoesn't benefit me, I'm still
looking out for you.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Absolutely.
I'm going to put that in myoffice.
I'm going to get that framed.
I give a shit about you.
That's good.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
Yeah, that would probably work at my company.
Yeah, I have a question.
It's a very selfish question,just because this has been one
of my struggles.
I've been in employers wherewe're all under one roof, it's a
lot easier to cultivate fun, aplayful culture.
Right Now I'm in anorganization where we have
several different locations andit's a lot.
It's a lot more challenging.
What advice do you have?
Speaker 1 (40:46):
I think the advice so interesting.
Usually, when people ask methat question, they're like
solve it, give me the answers.
Right, I'll take that too.
But there's somethingempowering about being like get
a bunch of the people that youknow that also care about the
same vision that you have.
That you're like we need toinfuse more play, more fun into
(41:08):
this.
We need to be more creative,because I feel like we're kind
of stuck right now.
Right, find the other peoplethat believe that like you, and
be like yo.
Let's figure it out.
Let's brainstorm this.
Let's, you know, maybe over alittle drinks, let's do have a
tipsy storm, you know, over some, you know alcohol or chocolate
or ice cream, however, you wantto do it.
And let's brainstorm thecraziest ideas of what we could
(41:30):
actually try to pull off, right,you know, and then come up with
this crazy list of ideas andthen circle a few that resonate
and then go to the bigger groupand try them out.
Or reach out to some of thosepeople that may be disengaged
and be like yo.
This is the problem we'retrying to solve.
Help us solve this.
(41:52):
So you're actually empoweringeveryone to make the decision
together, because the flip sideof that is you're like hey, I
have this fun team buildingevent that's going to fix
everything.
Or I have this fun teambuilding a game.
You know we're going to doSecret Santa.
Now, everyone's going to be allgood again and it's just like,
oh, I hate Secret Santa.
You know like let's not haveforced fun, let's actually ask
(42:12):
people do you want to have funor more fun at work?
Most of the time people aregoing to be like yeah, you know.
Okay, are you willing to figureout how to do this?
All right, you know, let'slet's take some time and let's
let's try to break this down andfigure this out.
We're all smart people here.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
Right Setting expectations that I don't want
to talk about the reasons whythis won't work.
Let's just bring some ideas andlet's talk about how we can
make them work.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
And that is an improv exercise.
Right there, the yes, and whereyou yes, and for 45, 50 minutes
where no one can criticizeanyone's ideas.
They do that in improv all thetime.
That's what keeps an improvscene going.
They never negate anything,they're always saying yes, and
this right Like oh, you knowwhat I think we should do, you
(43:07):
know, I think we should givestaff like an hour to pursue
something that they think isinteresting for like the next
month, and then, and it's justlike, oh, yeah, yes, and and
whoever comes up with like areally creative idea, let's
celebrate that person and leteveryone know that this happened
, because they devoted fivehours in the last month to this,
oh, yes, and.
And then you just keep addingon to that and just see where
(43:27):
these crazy ideas go, becauseyou'd be amazed what you're
going to be able to come up withwhen you allow yourself to not
poop on ideas.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
I think people would have a hard time with that in
the best way, just because Ithink people naturally go to yes
.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
But yes, exactly.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
It drives me nuts, but yes great.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
Actually run that in our workshop, where we have
people go and do a meeting whereit's all knows, and then we
have people go and do a meetingwhere it's yes, but, and then we
have people do a meeting andit's all no's.
And then we have people go anddo a meeting where it's yes, but
, and then we have people do ameeting and it's yes and, and
then we ask them how does itfeel in each situation?
Right, and sometimes we askpeople well, I'll ask you, molly
, what's worse, when you get astraight no or when you get a
(44:10):
yes?
Speaker 3 (44:10):
but Probably no.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
There's no right answer.
It's just like whatever onethat you feel.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
For me it'd be yes, but because it's like oh great,
here comes the argument, well,and it's like they're not even
listening to me.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
really, they're already thinking of all the ways
that it won't work Right.
Or they give you hope wherethey're like.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Yeah, we could do that, but you know, but some
people are Well, we trying that20 years ago.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Other people might see the yes but as a possibility
, like Ooh, but they didn't sayno directly, that you know.
So so again, it's just playingwith language and and being like
, hey, let's yes and and get geta little uncomfortable, you
know, because I'm tired of justhaving a bad attitude coming to
work.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
Yeah, if there's any uh, young HR professionals
listening to this or young andcareer professionals listening
to this, just know, if you takea yes but as a an approval to do
something within HR, I might,in poorly, take it from me.
I've been there, I love that, Ilove that and I, I'm just, I'm
(45:18):
sitting here and, um, I mean,this is just resonating so much.
Uh, today's been a good day.
You know, I, I today's beenreally positive and I'm just
reflecting on, okay, how did Istart?
Um, I didn't watch the news.
I turned on music when my daystarted.
I'm a very amateur musician and, uh, and I hugged my kids in
the morning before I went towork Nice, you know.
(45:39):
And it's like one of thosethings like, oh yeah, you know,
I did have a really good daytoday and it started good.
And then I think aboutyesterday wasn't so good and
it's because I turned on theCNBC and watched the stock
market.
You know, show up red Right.
So it's like, yeah, maybethere's something to this.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
And I would even do.
I do this exercise at the endof the year because I really
don't believe in resolutions.
A lot of people give up orforget.
They literally forget theirresolution three months in.
But I was like but wait aminute, there is something worth
reflecting on the year and thenplanning out the next year.
So I came up with this thingcalled the Fun Joy Play Index,
(46:18):
and it was all about likelooking back at your year and
being like what was fun aboutthis year, what was joyful about
this year, what was like one ofthe most impactful things that
happened this year?
And you can do the same thing atwork, where you're like what
were we able to overcome?
The fact that maybe ourcompany's even still around is a
(46:39):
huge accomplishment in 2020,when so many companies are going
out of business, right?
So the practice of gratitudelike so many studies have shown,
you write three grateful thingsat the beginning of the day or
at the end of the day after 30days, you are exponentially
happier.
So if you're practicing thesemethods even if they sound a
(46:59):
little woo woo with your HRstaff and and reflecting and
celebrating the accomplishmentsyou actually did make, and and
actually going back in youremail and your calendar and
you're like, oh yeah, we did dothat in January.
Wow, I can't believe we didthat.
That's actually pretty awesome.
Then you're going to actuallyfeel like you've got more done,
you know, and you builtsomething together with your
(47:21):
team.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
I am a true believer in this.
I do this every year.
I do this on a quarterly basiswith my team, and it's so
amazing every time we do itbecause, especially this year,
everybody was so down in thedumps about the year and you
look back about at everythingthat we've accomplished and you
can just it slipped like.
There were so focused on thenegative and everything that
(47:43):
went wrong.
But there was a lot tocelebrate this year as well
right, yeah, I'm, I 100 agree.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
I was on a on a walk with my son last night,
nine-year-old uh son and I was.
You know, I was talking to himabout the year and, um, you know
, just kind of that open aboutthe year and, um, you know, just
kind of that open-ended, likehey, you doing okay, um, yeah,
it's been a weird year and yeah,yeah, everything's fine and and
the conversation uh went fromyou know a point of concern to
(48:10):
talking about all the goodthings.
You know, more more family time, uh, the uh, he, he got more
screen time, he loves screentime.
He got more screen time, heloves screen time.
Nice, so you know this year wasgreat for him.
Yeah, and you know the newnormal for him is probably what
he loves to do.
Speaker 3 (48:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
Which is be on screens and create things on
screens, and he's going to be afamous YouTuber someday Nice, If
he has his way, you know.
But you know, all of thatcreativity that he embraced this
year was unlocked because ofthe situation in 2020.
So you know, there's a lot ofsilver linings this year.
I'm with you, Molly.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
And there's some resilience in being limited.
When you're when you limit orlimited in a lot of ways, you
have to get really creative,right.
Right, you know and I think itwas a study done by, I think,
hubspot that was like 63 percentof staffs you know in the
workplace say they would be moreproductive if they got more
positive feedback.
And if you think about it,anytime you usually give
(49:23):
feedback, you're giving thatlike that love sandwich where
it's like I'm really want togive you bad feedback but I'm
going to pack in some positive.
But imagine if you were justgiving just consistent positive
feedback on a regular basis overthe next like three months.
Watch what happens to yourstaff.
They are going to light up andthey're going to feel
appreciated and they're going toproduce in ways that you never
thought possible.
Speaker 2 (49:35):
I love it.
Well, we are unfortunatelygetting close to time.
Uh, if, if we were meeting faceto face, I'd be like let's just
, let's have another round andgo another three hours here.
But I want to be respectful ofyour time, so, uh, we are going
to move into the uh, hr flashround.
Oh, I love the flash here.
We go all right.
Flash round one.
What are you reading right now?
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Oh, I am reading two books how to Live a Good Life by
Jonathan Fields.
I'm reading that in a book cluband I'm reading Anand
Giridagas's book on Winners.
Take All, which is arguingshould billionaires exist while
people are still in poverty?
Speaker 2 (50:19):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
That's a whole other show, I think.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
Who should we be listening to?
Speaker 1 (50:29):
Oh, interesting.
Well, I'll answer it in twoways, right?
The first way is if 2020 hastaught me anything, it's that no
one knows what they're doingand we're all making it up as we
go along.
So the first person you need tobe listening to is yourself,
like, practicing, strengtheninglistening to your inner child,
(50:50):
your intuition, because you haveall the answers that you need.
You have all the answers thatyou need, like I say this all
the time, you know, um, adviceonly resonate, the advice I give
people only resonates with you,because you've already given
that advice to yourself and I'mjust saying it in a different
way.
So that would be the firstperson that you need to listen
to yourself.
(51:11):
Um, if I was thinking of us, ofanother person, I don't know,
I'm really vibing with JonathanFields.
He runs this phenomenal podcastcalled the Good Life Project
and I just was on his podcastbecause he did a show just
called the Hug and it was allabout sharing stories of
gratitude during this reallytough time and unity and being
(51:33):
like how can we give a virtual,virtual hug to people?
Because this, you know, thishas been a really tough year for
a lot of people.
So, jonathan Fields, Love it.
Speaker 2 (51:43):
You might have to check him out.
I am not familiar, so it soundslike there's some good content
there.
Last question this is a toughone how can our listeners
connect with you?
Speaker 1 (51:54):
So if you want to see my ridiculous videos, my handle
is Jeff Harry PlaysJ-E-F-F-H-A-R-R-Y-P-L-A-Y-S.
Or you can come to my website,rediscoveryourplaycom, where I
(52:17):
have a bunch of play exercisethat teams can actually do, as
well as individuals, to figureout who you are and how you can
play more at work.
Or you could just hop on a callwith me when you click that
let's Play button and we canfigure out how you can kick ass
in this world and make a muchmore fun, psychologically safe
place for all of us to work.
Speaker 2 (52:32):
Love it.
Great, great conversation.
We'll have all those details inthe show notes, but we
definitely have gained a lotfrom this conversation, a lot of
things we can take away for usin HR and some ways to rebel
against some of the systems,right.
Speaker 1 (52:50):
Let's go.
Speaker 2 (52:51):
Got to tie it all together.
Speaker 1 (52:52):
Hey, thanks so much, Kyle and Molly.
This has been super fun.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
Same here.
Thanks again, looking forwardto continuing to follow you and
learn from you.
Thanks, jeff.
All right, that does it for theRebel HR podcast.
Big thank you to our guests.
Follow us on Facebook at RebelHR Podcast, twitter at Rebel HR
Guy, or see our website atrebelhumanresourcescom.
The views and opinionsexpressed by Rebel HR Podcast
(53:19):
are those of the authors and donot necessarily reflect the
official policy or position ofany of the organizations that we
are in.
Speaker 3 (53:26):
No animals were harmed during the filming of
this podcast.
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