February 19, 2025 • 48 mins
Discover how to revolutionize your leadership approach with insights from Stephen M. R. Covey, author of "Trust and Inspire" and "The Speed of Trust." In our latest Rebel HR Podcast episode, we promise you'll learn how to transition from the outdated command and control model to a leadership style that fosters trust, inspiration, and unprecedented employee potential. Covey’s transformative model is perfectly suited for today’s rapidly evolving work environment, driven by technological advancements and the diverse expectations of newer generations.
We take a deep dive into Covey's concept of leadership through stewardship, which prioritizes responsibility over rights and influence over position. Covey shares compelling examples of how organizations like Popeyes and Microsoft have implemented these principles to achieve remarkable transformations. By focusing on three key leadership responsibilities—modeling, trusting, and inspiring—leaders can create high-trust cultures that drive productivity, creativity, and overall well-being. These stories show that by empowering your team, you unlock untapped talents and drive genuine success within your organization.
As we challenge the persistent dominance of command and control, we aim to inspire HR professionals to rebel against outdated paradigms and champion trust and inspiration as new leadership standards. The episode explores the nuances between motivation and inspiration, emphasizing the importance of fostering internal inspiration to boost productivity and creativity. Join us to explore how HR can serve as a catalyst for positive change by integrating trust-based leadership into your day-to-day operations, paving the way for a future defined by empowered and inspired teams.
Rebel HR is a podcast for HR professionals and leaders of people who are ready to make some disruption in the world of work. Please connect to continue the conversation!
https://twitter.com/rebelhrguy
https://www.facebook.com/rebelhrpodcast
http://www.kyleroed.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-roed/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all
things innovation in thepeople's space.
I'm Kyle Rode.
Let's start the show.
Welcome back, Rebel HRcommunity.
We have an honored guest withus today, so so excited.
With us we have Stephen M RCovey.
(00:25):
He is the author of Trust andInspire and the Speed of Trust.
He has been an influencer inour space for years and I am so
thrilled and honored to have himwith us.
Thank you, Stephen, for joiningus today.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
You are welcome, Kyle .
I'm equally thrilled andhonored to be with you for this
podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
I'm equally thrilled and honored to be with you for
this podcast.
Well, thank you so much.
And before we hit record, I wastotally fanboying over here.
I mean, it's like full circlethat we've got the Stephen M R
Covey on the podcast,considering the fact that one of
(01:04):
the motivating pieces ofcontent and literature was the
speed of trust that motivated meto start the podcast here so
many years ago.
So, Stephen, thank you so muchfor spending some time with us
today.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
You're welcome.
I was thrilled when you sharedthat story with me.
This is one of the motivatorsto get going on this podcast and
I'm really humbled by that andexcited.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Well, yeah, I really, really appreciate your time and
appreciate all of the contentand thought-provoking work that
you've done here over the yearsand that your organization,
franklin Covey, has done overthe years with training courses
and books.
There's so much great contentin the library there.
(01:40):
It's just, it's been amazing.
So, with that being said, todaywe're going to be talking all
about trusting and inspiring,and the book that is available
now is Trust and Inspire howTruly Great Leaders Unleash
Greatness in Others.
My first question to you iswhat motivated you to write a
(02:01):
book labeled Trust and Inspire?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, two key things.
First, just seeing howeverything, all these new forces
of change, have just hit all atonce.
The nature of work is far morecollaborative and interdependent
than ever before.
Technology is changingeverything, with disruption and
(02:25):
the pace of change and theamount of change.
But also the nature of theworkplace is changing, with
suddenly remote work, hybridwork, intentionally flexible
work, all these new options.
And then the nature of theworkforce has changed, where we
have these younger generations,you know, gen Z, the upcoming
alpha generation with completelydifferent expectations of how
(02:48):
they want to be engaged and led.
And then even the nature ofchoice has changed, where we've
gone from maybe what we mightcall multiple choice to infinite
choice, where people haveoptions in a way that they
didn't have before, where I canlive here, work there.
All these forces of change.
It's really a new world of work, and a new world of work
(03:12):
requires a new way to lead, tocontinue to lead in the old way,
the old model of leadership.
In a new world it's not goingto be relevant.
I like how you know theparaphrase, marshall Goldsmith
not going to be relevant.
I like how you know theparaphrase, marshall Goldsmith
what got us here won't get usthere, and the style of
(03:32):
leadership that maybe got us towhere we are today is not the
style of leadership that's goingto be needed to take us to
where we need to go tomorrow andin this new world of work.
And so we need a new way to leadin a new world of work, and the
new way, you know, I call trustand inspire, in contrast to the
old way, which, forsimplicity's sake, I called
command and control that we'vegotten better at through the
(03:53):
years and more, moresophisticated, more advanced,
more enlightened version ofcommand and control, but still
command and control and versusthat, trust and inspire, so that
all these forces have changedbeing.
You know, driving around us isone of the key reasons that
we've got to have a new way tolead in a new world at work.
But here's the second one.
It's just looking at how,almost if you, if you go around
(04:17):
and ask HR professionalsanywhere this question, how many
of you believe that the vastmajority of the workforce inside
of your organization has farmore creativity, ingenuity,
capacity, knowledge, insight,wisdom than their current job
(04:42):
requires or even allows them tocontribute?
Almost everyone would raisetheir hand and say mine does
People have a lot more to giveright, then we're able to give.
And then the second question,the follow-on, is and how many
are under intense and growingpressure to achieve more with
(05:06):
less?
And almost all of us wouldraise our hands to that.
And so I kind of you knowwhat's wrong with this picture.
We have to do more with less,and yet people have far more to
give than they're able to give.
That to me, is a failure ofleadership that we're not
leading in a way that isunleashing the potential, the
(05:27):
greatness, the talent that'sinside of people, and and we've
got to find a better way to leadthan the way we've been leading
.
And again, I'm calling thattrust and inspire.
So that's more the emotionalconnection.
The first one's more theintellectual.
You know, a new way of a newworld of work requires a new way
to lead.
But the second is kind of justsaying people have so much more
(05:49):
inside of them that we're notunleashing.
You know, in service of theorganization, our mission and
our, our clients and our culture.
We've got to tap into that.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
We've got to lead in a better way, absolutely, and
you know, I couldn't have saidit better myself.
There's a reason we labeledthis thing rebel human resources
, and that's because we believethat there is change, some
positive disruption for thebetter, that that needs to occur
.
Um, it, it's.
And and I I think it's reallyfascinating the way you open the
(06:21):
book.
You talk about the, the oldparadigm of leadership, this
command and control, and Iliterally remember when I
started early in my career, wewere literally using those terms
as it relates to what wedefined as leadership was you
need to make sure you arecommanding and controlling, and
it was a manufacturingenvironment.
We had all the buzzwords, allthe lean manufacturing buzzwords
(06:44):
, but we literally use thosewords.
So when I flipped through thebook, I'm like, oh yeah, this is
, this is hitting home for me,but but it's a little bit.
It's a little bit thoughtprovoking and and I love what
you just said about the, theaspect of, of the emotional
aspect here, where, where weknow that people have more
creativity, they have more togive, we know that people have
(07:06):
more creativity, they have moreto give, but we aren't allowing
that right, or the environment'snot allowing that, or there's
something missing that'sallowing people to truly connect
with that higher purpose thatthey have.
And one of the things that Ilove about your writing and it's
the same in the Speed of Trustis you do a really nice job of
putting this into models.
(07:27):
I'm a picture guy, so I lovethe.
There's some diagrams, there'ssome pictures, there's some
tools within the book that helpsus kind of break this down into
something that's actuallyactionable.
One of those tools is whatyou've described as the three
stewardships of a trust andinspire leader, and I really
(07:48):
like that framework as we startto think about how we define a
trust and inspire leader.
So can you walk us throughthose three stewardships and how
we should be thinking aboutthat in human resources?
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
And first of all, let me beginby talking about the word
stewardship.
That's really part of theparadigm shift that we need for
the kind of leadership neededtoday.
That leadership is stewardship.
It's about responsibility, notrights, influence, not position.
(08:21):
Leadership is a choice, not aposition, and these are inherent
responsibilities, implicit inbeing a leader.
So just the very idea of astewardship versus three
leadership rights.
Now, these are three leadershipstewardships, responsibilities
that we have A job with, a trust.
There's three of them andthey're simple, they're just not
(08:42):
easy, and I think people them.
And they're simple, they'rejust not easy, and I think
people, when they hear them,they say yes, of course, but
sometimes our style can get inthe way of our intent.
And so here's what they areFirst, modeling.
Second, trusting and third,inspiring.
So we have a stewardship tomodel, to model the behavior
(09:06):
that we would like to see to go.
First.
We have a stewardship.
Second, to trust and to extendthat trust, to give the trust,
to be trusting of people so weunleash their potential and
their greatness.
And then, third, we have astewardship, a responsibility,
to inspire those around us,those who are leading to model,
(09:27):
to trust, to inspire.
Modeling is who we are.
Trusting is how we lead, andinspiring is connecting to why
it matters, and so thosestewardships kind of comprise
this new way of leading, thistrust and inspire approach to
leadership.
I just didn't call it model,trust and inspire.
I called it trust and inspirefor simplicity and also to be to
(09:50):
be in contrast to command andcontrol.
You know, command and control,trust and inspire.
But there's really threeelements of it we model, we
trust and we inspire.
And that kind of leadership iswhat's going to bring out the
potential, the greatness, thetalent that's inside of people
and really create the kind ofculture, a high-trust culture,
(10:13):
where people do feel inspired.
And there's a whole other levelof both productivity that
people have inside of them whenthey feel inspired, as well as
creativity, an innovation thatcan come out of them, but also
greater well-being, greaterenergy, greater joy.
(10:41):
It's just so much.
There's so much more that wecan tap into inside of people
and that they want to have fortheir wellbeing, their energy,
their joy that they would liketo have as part of the culture
that will keep them with us,because they feel like we are
seeking their best interests andwe are unleashing with their
capacity, and they love that.
They want to be trusted, theywant to be inspired.
So we model, we trust, weinspire.
(11:03):
If I could give just a briefillustration of a great leader
who did this, I think of CherylBatchelder at Popeyes.
When she became the CEO ofPopeyes, she walks in they'd had
four CEOs in the prior sevenyears Popeyes, the fast food
franchise and she comes in acompletely different kind of
(11:24):
leader and the kind ofleadership they'd had prior
where they'd really there wasalmost a breakdown between the
relationship of the franchiseeswith the home office.
There was low trust.
They not only didn't trust eachother, they didn't really like
each other.
And she comes in and justmodels the kind of behavior that
(11:49):
she would like to see, thatthey would like to see, with
humility, balanced with courage,but also with empathy, with
listening and understanding.
She'd go into any conversationto try to understand first the
perspective of the franchiseesand everyone that she came in
contact with, but then alsomodeling around delivering
results, performing, deliveringwhat they were looking for.
(12:12):
And so she modeled and peopleliked that.
They felt heard, they feltunderstood, they felt valued.
But then she trusted and sheactually had people on her team
that said you can't trust them.
She says if we can't trust them, who can we trust?
You know, they're our partners.
And so she led out with thatextension of trust.
(12:34):
She was trusting of herfranchisees, of her partners, of
all the people that she workedwith.
She went first in trustingothers and then she inspired.
How did she inspire?
By connecting with peoplethrough a sense of caring,
genuine caring, deep caring, anda sense of belonging that we
(12:56):
belong to something we're partof.
This Part of our identity istied to this a real connection
with people through a sense ofcaring and belonging, but also
connected people to purpose, tomeaning and to contribution.
Long story made short, shebegan to really create a
different experience, internally, with their own people.
(13:17):
Externally, in the marketplacewith customers and partners.
They began to win in theworkplace with their own people,
which helped them win in themarketplace with customers and
partners.
And they began to unleash thegreatness of their organization
by first unleashing thegreatness of her people.
She modeled, she trusted, sheinspired.
Unleashing the greatness of herpeople, she modeled, she
(13:38):
trusted, she inspired.
And, among other things, theywent from a 14% market share to
27%.
They went from a stock price of$11 a share to $79.
Again, these economic, thesefinancial wins that I believe
came about because they firstunleashed the greatness of her
people, of the culture that wasinside of everyone.
She modeled, she trusted, sheinspired.
(14:01):
In a very similar way, satyaNadella did the same thing at
Microsoft unleashing thegreatness of that organization
by first unleashing thegreatness of the people by
modeling, by trusting, byinspiring, by implementing these
three stewardships, by carryingthem out.
And it's really remarkable thatthis unleashes the potential,
(14:24):
the talent, the greatness that'sinside of people to have a
leader that models, that trusts,that inspires, versus a leader
that kind of waits on everybodyelse and that tries to command
and control their way, you know,through position and the like,
and waiting on everybody elseand then just directing and
requiring or enforcing andtrying to just motivate only
(14:47):
instead of inspire.
You know, relying on rewardsystems only nothing wrong with
reward systems, that'smotivation.
But we want to move toinspiration, where it's internal
, intrinsic inside of people, tolight that fire within.
So, and I describe it, thoseare the three stewardships you
model, you trust, you inspire.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Well, just for our listeners, just so you know, I
literally had a question aboutmotivation versus inspiration
and Stephen is like reading mymind, but I think, first of all,
two great examples of leadersthat have trusted and inspired.
I tend to agree with you wherethese financial wins and the
stock price wins and all thesethings, these headlines of these
(15:32):
wonderful companies, that youknow that that's a tail effect,
right Like that's a, that's aripple effect from from, uh,
effective people practices.
Uh, at least that's been myexperience in my career, so I
tend to agree with that.
Um, I, I do want to, I want, Iwant to circle back to your
comments on motivation versusinspiration and I in the context
of human resources.
(15:52):
So often we get caught into thistrap of thinking about
inspiring others to do things inthe context of things like
rewards systems or incentivesystems and motivation systems.
Uh, so often I think we missthe boat on the bigger picture,
(16:14):
which is that that, yes, rewardsand compensation and benefits
and all these things are areimportant, but they're not the
reason that people uh give extradiscretionary efforts, not
necessarily the reason thatpeople will go above and beyond
or or make wonderful things orhave great innovation.
So can you walk us through that, that difference, the nuance
(16:37):
between motivating somebody todo something and actually
inspiring somebody to dosomething?
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yeah, fabulous, kyle.
I'm glad that we're goingdeeper in this, because I think
this distinction is reallyimportant and I think it's part
of the whole rebel HR mindset ofseeking the breakthrough.
And the way to think about itis less good and bad and either
or, but more and and then goingbeyond.
(17:03):
So look at it this wayMotivation is external, it's
extrinsic, it's outside of us,and so we're trying to move
people to do something.
So it tends to be kind ofreward systems and heavy carrot
and stick.
Motivation is the traditionalcommand and control.
So you want to.
(17:23):
You know, does that work?
Do reward systems work?
Sure, they motivate people,they move people to want to get
more rewards, but the onlyproblem is that we have to keep
well, two problems.
First, we have to keepproviding more external stimuli,
more carrots, more sticks, tokeep moving people, because we
have to move them.
(17:44):
Through this approach and what'sinside of people to begin with,
that goes beyond being moved todo it, but rather that people
choose to do it.
They feel compelled becauseit's in them.
You're tapping into somethinggreater, which is where
(18:05):
inspiration will take you.
So inspire, by contrast tobeing external, inspire and
inspiration is internal, it'sintrinsic, it's already inside
of people.
What we're trying to do islight the fire that's within.
That fire, once lit, can burnon for months, if not years,
(18:26):
without the need for constantnew external stimuli, and it can
take you to completelydifferent places that motivation
will never fully reach, wherepeople feel inspired to bring
forth their best effort, theirbest work, their best thinking
and creativity.
They choose to give it, theyvolunteer it, and the fire is
(18:48):
lit.
And you know the Latin phrasefor inspire is inspirare, which
means to breathe life into.
So you say trust, and inspirebreathes life into relationships
, into teams, into cultures,whereas command and control
often tends to suck the life outof.
(19:10):
So I'm not against rewardsystems, we need that, we need
motivation.
I'm just saying it's incomplete.
We can have that and then gobeyond it into inspiration,
where people are inspired bypurpose and by meaning, by
contribution and by a sense ofidentity and belonging and a
(19:31):
real sense of caring which movesthem to a whole new place
altogether.
And so it's not either, or it's, and it's a little bit.
Maslow's hierarchy of needs andmotivation can take you so far
up the hierarchy.
But really, what will movepeople not only into
self-actualization, but evenwhere Maslow later amended his
(19:55):
hierarchy of needs and addedself-transcendence, which is
contribution purpose.
That's where inspiration willtake you, and I'll just cite one
study.
This is a study from Bain andcompany, the consultants, that
shows that employees who areinspired are 125% more
(20:20):
productive than merely satisfiedemployees and we might expect
that because satisfaction is notthe highest bar.
So 125% more productive thanmerely satisfied employees, but
listen to this.
And they're even 56% moreproductive than fully engaged
(20:42):
employees, which is where we'vebeen focused on.
And motivation can move youtowards engagement, and I'm
saying that the highestmanifestation of engagement, the
highest form of engagement, isto be inspired.
So even something beyond that,where there's another level of
(21:02):
productivity, another level ofcreativity and innovation and
I'm going to come back to thevalue to the employee another
level of wellbeing, anotherlevel of well-being of thriving.
Microsoft is measuring thriving, you know, not just engagement,
but the employee thriving to beinspired, and others are
(21:24):
measuring you being inspired,and so that's the idea is, is,
is not either or it's and, butit's, it's.
It's a sense of, of, ofcompleting, of what's possible
inside of people.
That includes motivation, butgoes so much beyond, and that's
what people today people, I liketo say people don't want to be
(21:45):
managed.
People do want to be led andthey want to be trusted.
They want to be inspired.
They want to have that lifebreathed into and they want to
have their, their fire lit.
That you candle can lightanother candle, but an unlit
candle can't light anothercandle.
So to inspire others we firstneed to become inspired
(22:06):
ourselves.
That's all part of thestewardship.
We have to inspire others.
Let's model the response firstinspire others.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Let's model this first.
I love that.
I love that HR be the candle.
Don't be the snuffer, go first.
Absolutely, I love it.
Side note it's so funny youmentioned Maslow's hierarchy of
needs because literally a coupleof weeks ago we just debunked
the myth that there's five,there's actually eight, and like
we had a whole paradigm shifton the Maslow's hierarchy.
And so now all of us HRprofessionals we're questioning
(22:41):
who we are at the core ofourselves, because now this
chart's different than wethought.
But I think you know there's somuch, you know amazing content
in there and I think it's reallyimportant for us to remember
that this is an and equationright, and it is so much about
trust.
(23:01):
To circle back with where westarted this conversation, it's
funny that we're talking aboutthe changing workplace and the
different generations and alittle bit of a shift in
workplace and workspace, but thereality is, all of these
principles matter as much, ifnot more, in the new world of
(23:27):
work, and I think so much andthere's so much kind know, kind
of noise and headlines around.
Well, how do we, how do wemanage this new world of work?
Uh, what it sounds like to meis this is how we manage it
right and, as opposed tothinking about it as managing
it's, it's about how we lead andhow we, how we get other people
(23:48):
to to be inspired, as opposedto trying to force them to do
something, um and so so I'mcurious, because I guarantee you
that there's people listeningto this podcast that are like,
you know, this sounds great and,yeah, we understand that trust
is important, but you know we'regiving up a lot of power by
leading like this.
So what do you say to peoplewho are, who are worried about
(24:11):
this, like this shift, or shiftaway from, like having this
control into what what somemight say is a little bit more,
more open-ended, or or you know,the uh, the comment that you
made earlier was, well, we can'ttrust them, right?
Um, so so how do we?
How do we shift our thinkingand what?
What's your response to peoplewho are maybe kind of thinking
(24:33):
that or have that as a response?
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Well similar.
Like we were talking aboutmotivation and inspiration and
the and approach.
You know the third alternativethat great inspiration will
include motivation as well as abase.
See the same thing for thiskind of leadership that in a
sense, in a sense, the oppositeof command and control is not
trust and inspire, I just put itthis way.
(24:57):
The opposite of command andcontrol I would call abdicate
and abandon.
You know, where there's noleadership there, no
expectations, no accountability,no direction, no vision, where?
So if command and control isexcessively hands-on you you
know, excessively hands-on, soI'm micromanaging abdicate and
(25:17):
abandon is excessively hands-offno leadership, no expectations,
no accountability, and that'snot going to work, no more than
excessive micromanagement isgoing to work very well in a new
world.
So trust and inspire is reallya third alternative.
It's hand in hand, we're doingthis with each other and we're
(25:40):
building the agreement togetheraround the results that we're
seeking.
So I'm going to argue there'sactually more control in a trust
and inspire culture than thereis even in a command and control
culture.
Because in a trust and inspireculture than there is even in a
command and control culture,because in a command and control
culture the control comesthrough the micromanagement, the
(26:08):
hovering over and through rules.
In a trust and inspire culture,the control comes through the
culture itself and through therelationship and through the
agreement that you buildtogether with expectations and
with accountability.
So you build the agreementaround the trust that you're
extending and giving and thenthe agreement governs.
You don't have to hover overand micromanage people, but you
haven't lost control because youbuilt an agreement and people
(26:30):
report on how they're doingagainst the agreement you built
together.
But you don't dictate theagreement to the MC.
A command and control leaderwill just dictate the agreement,
say here's how we'll judge youand here's how I'll see how
you're doing, and they dictateit.
A trust and inspire leaderbuilds it with them and there's
far more buy-in to it becausethere's more involvement,
(26:52):
there's more commitment to it,there's more buy-in to achieve
it better.
And I'm going to argue there'smore control in this agreement
that you've built together andpeople evaluate themselves
against the agreement.
They report back to you on howthey're doing.
It looks and feels differentand yet there's more control in
it.
So I see it as a thirdalternative.
And to those that argue thatthis seems soft and weak, I'm
(27:16):
saying you're describingabdicate and abandon, not trust
and inspire.
This is a third alternative.
As a trust and inspire leader,you can be author, visionary,
(27:38):
without being exclusive.
You can be even detail-orientedwithout being trusting, and you
can be in charge and havecontrol without being
controlling.
But you do it through theagreement that you build
together and it's reallypowerful.
And so that's my response tothe kind of the cynic that's
saying this sounds nice but itsounds soft and weak.
(28:01):
I'm saying no, this is actuallythe strongest form of
leadership we can lead withtoday.
Maybe one last idea, framing onthis third alternative idea and
you mentioned it, you know aboutmanagement and leadership.
Again, it's not management isbad, leadership is good.
They're both good, they're bothvital.
We need good management, justlike we need good leadership.
(28:22):
The key is the context.
We manage things, we leadpeople, and we need great
management of things, of systems, of structures, of processes,
of tools, of inventories, of thenumbers of the business.
We manage things but we leadpeople.
But sometimes we've gotten sogood at managing things that we
(28:43):
start to manage people as ifthey were things, and if we keep
doing that in this new world,we might end up with no people
in a lot of things, because theyhave choices.
They have options.
They can go elsewhere.
It's not either.
Or it's in Manage, things leadpeople.
Let's get really good at this.
And Trust Inspire equips uswith both mindsets for the
(29:05):
different contexts that we bringto it.
So I think this is actuallystrong leadership.
It has control built in, adifferent kind of control.
It's not hovering overmicromanagement, but it's rather
control through the agreementwe built together, through the
context of the culture and therelationship that we've
established.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
That makes sense, absolutely, yeah, absolutely,
and I I think it's you know theum, what, what's what's really
interesting about this, thisapproach is you know, a lot of
times I think the perception ofcommand and control is, you know
, it's all about alwaysunderstanding what's happening
and and and tracking and youknow, ver and verifying and
(29:45):
micromanaging.
I think it would be a commondefinition there, and a lot of
times we can trick ourselvesinto thinking we actually know
what's happening or we know whatpeople are doing.
But the reality is, at least inmy experience, a lot of times,
when there's an absence of trustin that style of management,
you actually don't know what'sgoing on, because people are
(30:07):
afraid to tell you and so thatyou know they're, they're, maybe
they're modifying the system sothat it looks like something's
happened.
But I, a lot of times you'resurprised and it actually it's a
lack of control that actuallyexists in a system, because,
because you don't have thatlevel of trust and and and you
don't, you know, you don't havethe inspiration for people to be
inspired enough to say, hey, ifwe make this decision, this is
(30:28):
what's going to happen to thecustomer sentiment down the road
, because this is what you know,like you just, you won't have
that dialogue, you'll have morepoor results, right?
So I think to that point alittle bit of a light bulb
moment.
For me.
It was like well, command andcontrol you don't.
You might even know what you'retrying to control.
You might not even have theright information.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
That's terrific.
That's really insightful.
Kyle, I agree completely thateven the control that you have
is not as robust as you thoughtit was, because it's not genuine
, it's not dealing with the realissues.
You're only getting what peopleare willing to say, what they
dare to say and willing to speakup about, but not everything
else that's truly happening,because there's fear and they're
(31:08):
not going to say it, and sothere's a whole lot of things
that you don't even know aboutthe organization or the culture
and it's not being volunteered.
So your control is a falsesense of control.
It's really not as robust inany sense and as real as this
other.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Yeah, I think anybody listening to this podcast.
First of all, I don't thinkthat there's anybody listening
to this podcast.
That's like arguing againstthis.
It's more like I think thatcontext is important for the
people that are going to pushback on HR professionals, that
are pushing for this.
That's right Most commonly, butI think every HR professional
right now is just kind ofsmirking themselves and going,
yep, I've seen that so manytimes where we all think that we
(31:50):
know what's happening,especially in the boardroom or
in a conference room or in ameeting, and then we go out and
we talk to that one person, oneperson out there on the floor
that knows exactly what's goingon, and they tell us the truth.
And a lot of times HR is themiddle person between that,
where we're trying to convey thereality of what's happening to
leadership and we've got a frontrow seat to the ineffectiveness
(32:12):
of this style at times.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Yeah, and I do think that HR can be the catalyst to
help shift the paradigm.
I agree To help bring thisabout, to give people a new
vision of where we can go, canbe the catalyst to help shift
the paradigm.
I agree To help bring thisabout, to give people a new
vision of where we can go andwhy we need to go there and why
this is a better way to lead.
And they can speak, when wespeak the language, of what the
(32:37):
line leaders are wanting, thebusiness leaders are wanting, so
that we're relevant to them butpaint the vision of what's
possible in their language.
That's where we really make aconnection and show that we
understand the business and weknow how to lead the business to
that point.
And I think HR can lead thislike no one else.
For all those reasons and I doagree that this probably
(32:58):
resonates with the HRprofessional that says I know
I've been trying to say this andI'm trying to give the language
of how we can connect it to thevery things that the line
leaders want, which I know iswhat the HR team is wanting to
do as well, and so it's really apowerful connection.
But here's the thing, for allour progress that we've made in
(33:20):
the HR community, in theleadership community, towards
kind of.
Someone might hear this and saythis is really not.
Is this really a new way tolead?
Haven't we been talking aboutthis for the last decade plus?
Well, we have, but we're stillnot doing it, and the data shows
that still, about nine out of10 organizations are still
(33:41):
trapped in some form of thecommand and control model.
It may not be the authoritarianapproach, it might be the more
enlightened version of it, butstill the majority, the vast
majority, are still trapped incommand and control.
And I argue this to know andnot to do is not to know.
(34:04):
So we're still not.
The fact that we're not doingit means that we still haven't
made the leap, broken through,shifted the paradigm, and we've
got to do that, and I think HRcan be a catalyst to lead us
towards that.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
To lead us towards that Absolutely, and I think you
know to that point and I'vealways said this you know HR is
in a unique point, in a positionwhere we have a lot of we have
a lot of power, whether werealize it or not, and one of
those areas where we have theability to really shape an
organization is the learning anddevelopment journey that we
(34:40):
take our leaders through.
And so one thing I did want totalk about maybe going back to
the speed of trust is I knowthat there's been a focus on
updating some of the content tobe more reflective of the
shifting world of work and thatyou've got some new courses
available specifically to helpHR professionals on their
(35:02):
learning and development relatedto trust and a couple of new
workshops.
Can you tell us a little bitabout the workshops the leading
at the speed of trust andworking at the speed of trust
workshops that you've beenworking on?
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Absolutely.
Yeah, this is all about helpingleaders and teams and
organizations build high trustteams, high trust cultures,
getting good at this.
And we've had these workshopsreally for a decade plus 15
years plus.
That have been superb.
We just have a new, refreshed,updated version of it.
(35:33):
So those that have used theSpeed of Trust stuff, it's just
a refreshed, re-imagined,updated version for our time.
And what I would highlight isthat we've also got now we're
showing how trust is builtthrough our credibility and our
behavior, which is kind of theessence of the speed of trust,
(35:53):
of helping people do itintentionally, on purpose, and
giving them a framework and alanguage and a process of how to
do it.
And now we've gone to going toanother level of saying not only
can we do this as leaders andas individuals, but we can do it
as a team and as anorganization and build a
high-trust culture and build ahigh-trust team.
(36:14):
So we've got a whole new moduleon building high-trust teams
through credibility and behaviorand high-trust relationships
with customers and partnersthrough credibility and behavior
and high trust relationshipwith customers and partners
through credibility and behavior.
It's just so practical, sotangible, so actionable.
So I think that those that arefamiliar with this already will
love it because it takes it to awhole nother level.
(36:34):
And those that aren't familiarwith it, this will be kind of a
natural next step to say, okay,how do we if, if, if, if?
Building a high trust, team andculture is so important, how do
we do it?
How do I lead that from HR?
And this will help you doprecisely that.
It gives you the, the language,the framework, the process of
(36:55):
becoming, you know,intentionally good at building
trust on purpose in our teamsand organizations, and so we're
excited, delighted about whatwe've done to make this so fresh
, so relevant in our world today, which it really is, and it
really kind of is fitting thislanguage of trust and inspire,
of really being where you know,meeting people, where we're at
(37:17):
and where society is at andpeople are at today, to keep
this fresh and relevant forothers.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Absolutely and, and you know maybe a maybe a comment
on that.
You know I've I've used speedof trust, and, and and those
types of tools for for manyyears as a, as a practicing HR
professional.
I I I try to give it to anyleader that's going through some
development with me.
One of the I think the one ofthe really powerful things about
that book is it gives you astructure to talk about trust.
(37:44):
It's not this nebulous concept.
It actually gets down tobuilding out some language
around it and some protocols tothink about, and once you start
to use that within yourorganization and with your
leaders, it's pretty amazing tosee that start to become
pervasive throughout theday-to-day conversations and
(38:05):
culture, and it really can helpreshape your workplace.
So I would strongly encourageanybody to check that out.
I think I can guarantee you Ihaven't got to the new workshops
yet, but I can guarantee youthat it's going to be well worth
your time.
So, with that being said, youare an extremely be well with
you with your time.
So, with that being said, youare an extremely busy man and
sincerely appreciate your time.
(38:26):
We are quickly coming to theclose of our available time
together.
I'm fascinated to hear yourresponses to the rebel HR flash
round.
Are you ready?
I'm ready, yeah all right, herewe go.
Question number one where doeshr need to rebel?
Speaker 2 (38:43):
hr needs to rebel against command and control and
say there's a better way to lead, and it's trust and inspire.
And I know they rebel alreadyin the paradigm.
Now I think we need to shiftbeyond the paradigm, into the
language, into the systems, intothe structures and the
(39:07):
practices, so that we're sayingwe must make this shift, because
I believe that command andcontrol is the equivalent of
modern day bloodletting, if youthink about it.
Bloodletting went on for 3000years, started with the
Egyptians, went to the Romans,but it persisted.
(39:29):
And even when it was disproventhat it doesn't work the disease
was not in the blood.
That was in the 15 and 1600s itstill persisted for another 250
years.
It was still practiced becauseold paradigms die hard.
And so, while the HR I thinkcommunity gets it that we need
to make this shift, I think thepractice of command and control
(39:53):
leadership is still the commonpractice and that is modern day
bloodletting.
We need to rebel against modernday bloodletting and say no,
we've got to lead in a new wayand it's in our language.
Even you know the idea of oftop down and hierarchies and the
front line and and rank andfile.
It's just in our language.
(40:14):
We got to choose differentlanguage.
In our systems we have, youknow, we look at high potentials
what does that say abouteverybody else and how you've
seen others and we look at thestructures and the processes and
there's just a lot of rebelling.
We need to do and say no, it'snot span of control, it's span
(40:35):
of care, as Bob Chapman says andothers, and we're going to
rebel in our language, in oursystems, in our structures, in
our processes, in our tools, andwe're going to become trust and
inspire.
And so that's it.
We got to rebel against commandand control, not just in the
paradigm, which I think is whereit starts, but in the systems
and the structures and theprocesses and the tools and in
(40:57):
the very language that we'reusing.
And I think we can rebel and bethe catalyst to change the way
that we practice this in all itsrespect.
We can get rid of bloodletting.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
And we can do it faster than 250 years.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
We can do it faster, we can do it so much faster.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Couldn't agree more.
Very well said.
Question number two who shouldwe be listening to?
Question number two who shouldwe be?
Speaker 2 (41:21):
listening to Thinkers , leaders, practitioners that
are saying this very thing thatwe need a paradigm shift.
We need a sea change, adramatic shift, not an
incremental shift.
And because incrementalismwon't get us to where we need to
be, it won't build a high-trustculture that inspires, and it
(41:44):
won't help us collaborate andinnovate in a changing, shifting
, disruptive world, it won't doit fast enough.
And you know we don't have the250 years, we don't have two and
a half years.
We got to move faster.
And so for leaders and thinkersI'm just thinking of Francis
Fry and Ann Morris, harvardBusiness School.
(42:05):
Francis Fry, who wrote Unleashedand this new book, move Fast
and Fix Things, you know, thatare just saying we've got to
move fast and fix things.
We've got a new paradigm,unleashing everyone and the
potential, the greatness.
Potential, the greatness, youknow, thinking of Aaron Meyer
(42:28):
and Reed Hastings and the norules rule that they've employed
at Netflix.
That includes getting rid ofcontrols as you increase the
trust and the straight talk andall the things that are
happening to try to unleash thecontrols that are in place, that
are traditional, and we've gotto get rid of them in a way that
really is working.
And so thinkers like this DougConant, great practitioner,
(42:53):
thinker, who wrote the Blueprint, and others that are thinking
about whole new ways of leading,so big paradigm shifters that
are not.
They're not into incrementalshifts and change, but into sea
changes and dramatic changes.
And I'm trying to say this thethe big shift is to move from
command and control to trust,inspire.
(43:14):
That's.
That's the type of thing thatwe need love it, love it.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
the world's not changing incrementally, it's
changing exponentially.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
The world is changing exponentially and our style of
leadership needs to changeexponentially with it.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
You need to get ahead of it Absolutely.
Last question how can ourlisteners reach out, connect
with you and get their hands onthe book and the workshops?
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Wonderful.
We'll go to trustandinspirecom,which is a website, and there
you can get the book.
You can get other resources,tools, ideas, thinking around
this, and I'd love you toconnect with me.
I'm on LinkedIn.
You can follow me on LinkedIn,Also on X the old Twitter, and
(43:57):
on Instagram at StephenMRCovey,and so follow me.
Go to TrustAndInspirecom,connect with me and love to be
able to help in any way that Ican, that we can, our team.
(44:26):
This is exciting work and Iwould just say this to you in HR
, you can go first.
Someone needs to go first.
Leaders go first and as an HRprofessional, you can go first.
I'm right now working.
I'll give you two cases of theHR team going first, the HR
leader going first.
One where we're dealing with anorganization that is going
through all kinds of change butthey're trapped in a command and
control style of leadership.
They almost don't see it.
They're like fish that discoverwater last.
They're so immersed in itthey're not even aware that it's
(44:49):
in how they're leading.
But the HR team is the teamthat's putting up the mirror.
But they are modeling by firstapplying this within their own
team and they're going first andthey're helping.
Then the rest of theorganization see that, that they
can do this.
But they're seeing a model byin the HR team by showing them
there's a better way to lead andlook how we're doing it.
(45:10):
That is pretty remarkable andthey're helping, and they're and
they're helping the rest of theteam see how they can do it too
.
And and and then.
A second example of when Iactually highlight in the Trust
Inspire book, of how a hugeparadigm shift happened where
the CEO got behind all thechanges that needed to be made
(45:30):
and everyone says we need a CEOlike that.
And what I point out is that itdidn't start with the CEO.
It started with the leader ofHR.
They began to implement thesechanges within her organization,
her team, and, as they did itthere, they then began to work
within the partner organizationsthat they served with as
partners and they began to seethe business leader would work
(45:53):
with the HR partner and began tosee a better way of working
together, began to model, itbegan to bring it in there and
one by one, almost business unitby business unit, it got
brought to the CEO of a betterway to lead.
And finally the CEO said gosh,I'm talking to several of you,
my direct reports.
You're doing this in adifferent way and don't we need
(46:13):
this for the whole organizationand bought into it organization
wide and you love that.
And I've had people say, gosh,we need a CEO like that.
And I say yes, but it didn'tstart with the CEO.
It started with Janita, withinher circle of influence,
bringing about this changewithin the HR team and it
rippled out and then up and thendown throughout the entire
(46:35):
organization.
That's what we need and you andHR can go first.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
I love it.
I love it, Steven.
It's been absolutely amazing tohave you on the podcast.
Thank you again so much forjoining us.
Thank you for all of thewonderful content and I can't
wait to see what you come upwith next.
We will have all those links inthe show notes.
Please open up the podcastplayer.
Check it out.
You will not be disappointed.
Steven M R Covey, everybodyThank you.
Speaker 2 (47:09):
Thank you, kyle.
Let me just say this it's anhonor to be with you, I
appreciate you.
I feel like I'm talking to akindred spirit, I agree and
really a co-catalyst to helpunleash the greatness of our
organizations by firstunleashing the greatness of our
people.
And that's the whole idea and Ilove the whole premise of Rebel
Human Resources podcast, rebelHR, and that's the kind of sea
(47:29):
change that we need is takingthis on, and this is an
extraordinary place to rebelagainst leadership style.
And so let's rebel and let's gofrom command and control to
trust and inspire.
And thank you for being acatalyst, a co-catalyst with me
to help bring this about.
Speaker 1 (47:47):
I'm going to just I'm just going to leave it right
there, steven.
Thank you so much.
The honor is all mine.
Thank you for everything overthe years and for the continued
inspiration.
Thank you, you're welcome.
Thank you, my friend.
All right, that does it for theRebel HR podcast.
Big thank you to our guests.
Follow us on Facebook at RebelHR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR
(48:11):
guy, or see our website atrebelhumanresourcescom.
The views and opinionsexpressed by Rebel HR podcast
are those of the authors and donot necessarily reflect the
official policy or position ofany of the organizations that we
represent.
No animals were harmed duringthe filming of this podcast.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Baby.
This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all
things innovation in thepeople's space.
I'm Kyle Rode.
Let's start the show.
Welcome back, Rebel HRcommunity.
We have an honored guest withus today, so so excited.
With us we have Stephen M RCovey.
(00:25):
He is the author of Trust andInspire and the Speed of Trust.
He has been an influencer inour space for years and I am so
thrilled and honored to have himwith us.
Thank you, Stephen, for joiningus today.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
You are welcome, Kyle .
I'm equally thrilled andhonored to be with you for this
podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
I'm equally thrilled and honored to be with you for
this podcast.
Well, thank you so much.
And before we hit record, I wastotally fanboying over here.
I mean, it's like full circlethat we've got the Stephen M R
Covey on the podcast,considering the fact that one of
(01:04):
the motivating pieces ofcontent and literature was the
speed of trust that motivated meto start the podcast here so
many years ago.
So, Stephen, thank you so muchfor spending some time with us
today.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
You're welcome.
I was thrilled when you sharedthat story with me.
This is one of the motivatorsto get going on this podcast and
I'm really humbled by that andexcited.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Well, yeah, I really, really appreciate your time and
appreciate all of the contentand thought-provoking work that
you've done here over the yearsand that your organization,
franklin Covey, has done overthe years with training courses
and books.
There's so much great contentin the library there.
(01:40):
It's just, it's been amazing.
So, with that being said, todaywe're going to be talking all
about trusting and inspiring,and the book that is available
now is Trust and Inspire howTruly Great Leaders Unleash
Greatness in Others.
My first question to you iswhat motivated you to write a
(02:01):
book labeled Trust and Inspire?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, two key things.
First, just seeing howeverything, all these new forces
of change, have just hit all atonce.
The nature of work is far morecollaborative and interdependent
than ever before.
Technology is changingeverything, with disruption and
(02:25):
the pace of change and theamount of change.
But also the nature of theworkplace is changing, with
suddenly remote work, hybridwork, intentionally flexible
work, all these new options.
And then the nature of theworkforce has changed, where we
have these younger generations,you know, gen Z, the upcoming
alpha generation with completelydifferent expectations of how
(02:48):
they want to be engaged and led.
And then even the nature ofchoice has changed, where we've
gone from maybe what we mightcall multiple choice to infinite
choice, where people haveoptions in a way that they
didn't have before, where I canlive here, work there.
All these forces of change.
It's really a new world of work, and a new world of work
(03:12):
requires a new way to lead, tocontinue to lead in the old way,
the old model of leadership.
In a new world it's not goingto be relevant.
I like how you know theparaphrase, marshall Goldsmith
not going to be relevant.
I like how you know theparaphrase, marshall Goldsmith
what got us here won't get usthere, and the style of
(03:32):
leadership that maybe got us towhere we are today is not the
style of leadership that's goingto be needed to take us to
where we need to go tomorrow andin this new world of work.
And so we need a new way to leadin a new world of work, and the
new way, you know, I call trustand inspire, in contrast to the
old way, which, forsimplicity's sake, I called
command and control that we'vegotten better at through the
(03:53):
years and more, moresophisticated, more advanced,
more enlightened version ofcommand and control, but still
command and control and versusthat, trust and inspire, so that
all these forces have changedbeing.
You know, driving around us isone of the key reasons that
we've got to have a new way tolead in a new world at work.
But here's the second one.
It's just looking at how,almost if you, if you go around
(04:17):
and ask HR professionalsanywhere this question, how many
of you believe that the vastmajority of the workforce inside
of your organization has farmore creativity, ingenuity,
capacity, knowledge, insight,wisdom than their current job
(04:42):
requires or even allows them tocontribute?
Almost everyone would raisetheir hand and say mine does
People have a lot more to giveright, then we're able to give.
And then the second question,the follow-on, is and how many
are under intense and growingpressure to achieve more with
(05:06):
less?
And almost all of us wouldraise our hands to that.
And so I kind of you knowwhat's wrong with this picture.
We have to do more with less,and yet people have far more to
give than they're able to give.
That to me, is a failure ofleadership that we're not
leading in a way that isunleashing the potential, the
(05:27):
greatness, the talent that'sinside of people, and and we've
got to find a better way to leadthan the way we've been leading
.
And again, I'm calling thattrust and inspire.
So that's more the emotionalconnection.
The first one's more theintellectual.
You know, a new way of a newworld of work requires a new way
to lead.
But the second is kind of justsaying people have so much more
(05:49):
inside of them that we're notunleashing.
You know, in service of theorganization, our mission and
our, our clients and our culture.
We've got to tap into that.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
We've got to lead in a better way, absolutely, and
you know, I couldn't have saidit better myself.
There's a reason we labeledthis thing rebel human resources
, and that's because we believethat there is change, some
positive disruption for thebetter, that that needs to occur
.
Um, it, it's.
And and I I think it's reallyfascinating the way you open the
(06:21):
book.
You talk about the, the oldparadigm of leadership, this
command and control, and Iliterally remember when I
started early in my career, wewere literally using those terms
as it relates to what wedefined as leadership was you
need to make sure you arecommanding and controlling, and
it was a manufacturingenvironment.
We had all the buzzwords, allthe lean manufacturing buzzwords
(06:44):
, but we literally use thosewords.
So when I flipped through thebook, I'm like, oh yeah, this is
, this is hitting home for me,but but it's a little bit.
It's a little bit thoughtprovoking and and I love what
you just said about the, theaspect of, of the emotional
aspect here, where, where weknow that people have more
creativity, they have more togive, we know that people have
(07:06):
more creativity, they have moreto give, but we aren't allowing
that right, or the environment'snot allowing that, or there's
something missing that'sallowing people to truly connect
with that higher purpose thatthey have.
And one of the things that Ilove about your writing and it's
the same in the Speed of Trustis you do a really nice job of
putting this into models.
(07:27):
I'm a picture guy, so I lovethe.
There's some diagrams, there'ssome pictures, there's some
tools within the book that helpsus kind of break this down into
something that's actuallyactionable.
One of those tools is whatyou've described as the three
stewardships of a trust andinspire leader, and I really
(07:48):
like that framework as we startto think about how we define a
trust and inspire leader.
So can you walk us throughthose three stewardships and how
we should be thinking aboutthat in human resources?
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
And first of all, let me beginby talking about the word
stewardship.
That's really part of theparadigm shift that we need for
the kind of leadership neededtoday.
That leadership is stewardship.
It's about responsibility, notrights, influence, not position.
(08:21):
Leadership is a choice, not aposition, and these are inherent
responsibilities, implicit inbeing a leader.
So just the very idea of astewardship versus three
leadership rights.
Now, these are three leadershipstewardships, responsibilities
that we have A job with, a trust.
There's three of them andthey're simple, they're just not
(08:42):
easy, and I think people them.
And they're simple, they'rejust not easy, and I think
people, when they hear them,they say yes, of course, but
sometimes our style can get inthe way of our intent.
And so here's what they areFirst, modeling.
Second, trusting and third,inspiring.
So we have a stewardship tomodel, to model the behavior
(09:06):
that we would like to see to go.
First.
We have a stewardship.
Second, to trust and to extendthat trust, to give the trust,
to be trusting of people so weunleash their potential and
their greatness.
And then, third, we have astewardship, a responsibility,
to inspire those around us,those who are leading to model,
(09:27):
to trust, to inspire.
Modeling is who we are.
Trusting is how we lead, andinspiring is connecting to why
it matters, and so thosestewardships kind of comprise
this new way of leading, thistrust and inspire approach to
leadership.
I just didn't call it model,trust and inspire.
I called it trust and inspirefor simplicity and also to be to
(09:50):
be in contrast to command andcontrol.
You know, command and control,trust and inspire.
But there's really threeelements of it we model, we
trust and we inspire.
And that kind of leadership iswhat's going to bring out the
potential, the greatness, thetalent that's inside of people
and really create the kind ofculture, a high-trust culture,
(10:13):
where people do feel inspired.
And there's a whole other levelof both productivity that
people have inside of them whenthey feel inspired, as well as
creativity, an innovation thatcan come out of them, but also
greater well-being, greaterenergy, greater joy.
(10:41):
It's just so much.
There's so much more that wecan tap into inside of people
and that they want to have fortheir wellbeing, their energy,
their joy that they would liketo have as part of the culture
that will keep them with us,because they feel like we are
seeking their best interests andwe are unleashing with their
capacity, and they love that.
They want to be trusted, theywant to be inspired.
So we model, we trust, weinspire.
(11:03):
If I could give just a briefillustration of a great leader
who did this, I think of CherylBatchelder at Popeyes.
When she became the CEO ofPopeyes, she walks in they'd had
four CEOs in the prior sevenyears Popeyes, the fast food
franchise and she comes in acompletely different kind of
(11:24):
leader and the kind ofleadership they'd had prior
where they'd really there wasalmost a breakdown between the
relationship of the franchiseeswith the home office.
There was low trust.
They not only didn't trust eachother, they didn't really like
each other.
And she comes in and justmodels the kind of behavior that
(11:49):
she would like to see, thatthey would like to see, with
humility, balanced with courage,but also with empathy, with
listening and understanding.
She'd go into any conversationto try to understand first the
perspective of the franchiseesand everyone that she came in
contact with, but then alsomodeling around delivering
results, performing, deliveringwhat they were looking for.
(12:12):
And so she modeled and peopleliked that.
They felt heard, they feltunderstood, they felt valued.
But then she trusted and sheactually had people on her team
that said you can't trust them.
She says if we can't trust them, who can we trust?
You know, they're our partners.
And so she led out with thatextension of trust.
(12:34):
She was trusting of herfranchisees, of her partners, of
all the people that she workedwith.
She went first in trustingothers and then she inspired.
How did she inspire?
By connecting with peoplethrough a sense of caring,
genuine caring, deep caring, anda sense of belonging that we
(12:56):
belong to something we're partof.
This Part of our identity istied to this a real connection
with people through a sense ofcaring and belonging, but also
connected people to purpose, tomeaning and to contribution.
Long story made short, shebegan to really create a
different experience, internally, with their own people.
(13:17):
Externally, in the marketplacewith customers and partners.
They began to win in theworkplace with their own people,
which helped them win in themarketplace with customers and
partners.
And they began to unleash thegreatness of their organization
by first unleashing thegreatness of her people.
She modeled, she trusted, sheinspired.
Unleashing the greatness of herpeople, she modeled, she
(13:38):
trusted, she inspired.
And, among other things, theywent from a 14% market share to
27%.
They went from a stock price of$11 a share to $79.
Again, these economic, thesefinancial wins that I believe
came about because they firstunleashed the greatness of her
people, of the culture that wasinside of everyone.
She modeled, she trusted, sheinspired.
(14:01):
In a very similar way, satyaNadella did the same thing at
Microsoft unleashing thegreatness of that organization
by first unleashing thegreatness of the people by
modeling, by trusting, byinspiring, by implementing these
three stewardships, by carryingthem out.
And it's really remarkable thatthis unleashes the potential,
(14:24):
the talent, the greatness that'sinside of people to have a
leader that models, that trusts,that inspires, versus a leader
that kind of waits on everybodyelse and that tries to command
and control their way, you know,through position and the like,
and waiting on everybody elseand then just directing and
requiring or enforcing andtrying to just motivate only
(14:47):
instead of inspire.
You know, relying on rewardsystems only nothing wrong with
reward systems, that'smotivation.
But we want to move toinspiration, where it's internal
, intrinsic inside of people, tolight that fire within.
So, and I describe it, thoseare the three stewardships you
model, you trust, you inspire.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Well, just for our listeners, just so you know, I
literally had a question aboutmotivation versus inspiration
and Stephen is like reading mymind, but I think, first of all,
two great examples of leadersthat have trusted and inspired.
I tend to agree with you wherethese financial wins and the
stock price wins and all thesethings, these headlines of these
(15:32):
wonderful companies, that youknow that that's a tail effect,
right Like that's a, that's aripple effect from from, uh,
effective people practices.
Uh, at least that's been myexperience in my career, so I
tend to agree with that.
Um, I, I do want to, I want, Iwant to circle back to your
comments on motivation versusinspiration and I in the context
of human resources.
(15:52):
So often we get caught into thistrap of thinking about
inspiring others to do things inthe context of things like
rewards systems or incentivesystems and motivation systems.
Uh, so often I think we missthe boat on the bigger picture,
(16:14):
which is that that, yes, rewardsand compensation and benefits
and all these things are areimportant, but they're not the
reason that people uh give extradiscretionary efforts, not
necessarily the reason thatpeople will go above and beyond
or or make wonderful things orhave great innovation.
So can you walk us through that, that difference, the nuance
(16:37):
between motivating somebody todo something and actually
inspiring somebody to dosomething?
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yeah, fabulous, kyle.
I'm glad that we're goingdeeper in this, because I think
this distinction is reallyimportant and I think it's part
of the whole rebel HR mindset ofseeking the breakthrough.
And the way to think about itis less good and bad and either
or, but more and and then goingbeyond.
(17:03):
So look at it this wayMotivation is external, it's
extrinsic, it's outside of us,and so we're trying to move
people to do something.
So it tends to be kind ofreward systems and heavy carrot
and stick.
Motivation is the traditionalcommand and control.
So you want to.
(17:23):
You know, does that work?
Do reward systems work?
Sure, they motivate people,they move people to want to get
more rewards, but the onlyproblem is that we have to keep
well, two problems.
First, we have to keepproviding more external stimuli,
more carrots, more sticks, tokeep moving people, because we
have to move them.
(17:44):
Through this approach and what'sinside of people to begin with,
that goes beyond being moved todo it, but rather that people
choose to do it.
They feel compelled becauseit's in them.
You're tapping into somethinggreater, which is where
(18:05):
inspiration will take you.
So inspire, by contrast tobeing external, inspire and
inspiration is internal, it'sintrinsic, it's already inside
of people.
What we're trying to do islight the fire that's within.
That fire, once lit, can burnon for months, if not years,
(18:26):
without the need for constantnew external stimuli, and it can
take you to completelydifferent places that motivation
will never fully reach, wherepeople feel inspired to bring
forth their best effort, theirbest work, their best thinking
and creativity.
They choose to give it, theyvolunteer it, and the fire is
(18:48):
lit.
And you know the Latin phrasefor inspire is inspirare, which
means to breathe life into.
So you say trust, and inspirebreathes life into relationships
, into teams, into cultures,whereas command and control
often tends to suck the life outof.
(19:10):
So I'm not against rewardsystems, we need that, we need
motivation.
I'm just saying it's incomplete.
We can have that and then gobeyond it into inspiration,
where people are inspired bypurpose and by meaning, by
contribution and by a sense ofidentity and belonging and a
(19:31):
real sense of caring which movesthem to a whole new place
altogether.
And so it's not either, or it's, and it's a little bit.
Maslow's hierarchy of needs andmotivation can take you so far
up the hierarchy.
But really, what will movepeople not only into
self-actualization, but evenwhere Maslow later amended his
(19:55):
hierarchy of needs and addedself-transcendence, which is
contribution purpose.
That's where inspiration willtake you, and I'll just cite one
study.
This is a study from Bain andcompany, the consultants, that
shows that employees who areinspired are 125% more
(20:20):
productive than merely satisfiedemployees and we might expect
that because satisfaction is notthe highest bar.
So 125% more productive thanmerely satisfied employees, but
listen to this.
And they're even 56% moreproductive than fully engaged
(20:42):
employees, which is where we'vebeen focused on.
And motivation can move youtowards engagement, and I'm
saying that the highestmanifestation of engagement, the
highest form of engagement, isto be inspired.
So even something beyond that,where there's another level of
(21:02):
productivity, another level ofcreativity and innovation and
I'm going to come back to thevalue to the employee another
level of wellbeing, anotherlevel of well-being of thriving.
Microsoft is measuring thriving, you know, not just engagement,
but the employee thriving to beinspired, and others are
(21:24):
measuring you being inspired,and so that's the idea is, is,
is not either or it's and, butit's, it's.
It's a sense of, of, ofcompleting, of what's possible
inside of people.
That includes motivation, butgoes so much beyond, and that's
what people today people, I liketo say people don't want to be
(21:45):
managed.
People do want to be led andthey want to be trusted.
They want to be inspired.
They want to have that lifebreathed into and they want to
have their, their fire lit.
That you candle can lightanother candle, but an unlit
candle can't light anothercandle.
So to inspire others we firstneed to become inspired
(22:06):
ourselves.
That's all part of thestewardship.
We have to inspire others.
Let's model the response firstinspire others.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Let's model this first.
I love that.
I love that HR be the candle.
Don't be the snuffer, go first.
Absolutely, I love it.
Side note it's so funny youmentioned Maslow's hierarchy of
needs because literally a coupleof weeks ago we just debunked
the myth that there's five,there's actually eight, and like
we had a whole paradigm shifton the Maslow's hierarchy.
And so now all of us HRprofessionals we're questioning
(22:41):
who we are at the core ofourselves, because now this
chart's different than wethought.
But I think you know there's somuch, you know amazing content
in there and I think it's reallyimportant for us to remember
that this is an and equationright, and it is so much about
trust.
(23:01):
To circle back with where westarted this conversation, it's
funny that we're talking aboutthe changing workplace and the
different generations and alittle bit of a shift in
workplace and workspace, but thereality is, all of these
principles matter as much, ifnot more, in the new world of
(23:27):
work, and I think so much andthere's so much kind know, kind
of noise and headlines around.
Well, how do we, how do wemanage this new world of work?
Uh, what it sounds like to meis this is how we manage it
right and, as opposed tothinking about it as managing
it's, it's about how we lead andhow we, how we get other people
(23:48):
to to be inspired, as opposedto trying to force them to do
something, um and so so I'mcurious, because I guarantee you
that there's people listeningto this podcast that are like,
you know, this sounds great and,yeah, we understand that trust
is important, but you know we'regiving up a lot of power by
leading like this.
So what do you say to peoplewho are, who are worried about
(24:11):
this, like this shift, or shiftaway from, like having this
control into what what somemight say is a little bit more,
more open-ended, or or you know,the uh, the comment that you
made earlier was, well, we can'ttrust them, right?
Um, so so how do we?
How do we shift our thinkingand what?
What's your response to peoplewho are maybe kind of thinking
(24:33):
that or have that as a response?
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Well similar.
Like we were talking aboutmotivation and inspiration and
the and approach.
You know the third alternativethat great inspiration will
include motivation as well as abase.
See the same thing for thiskind of leadership that in a
sense, in a sense, the oppositeof command and control is not
trust and inspire, I just put itthis way.
(24:57):
The opposite of command andcontrol I would call abdicate
and abandon.
You know, where there's noleadership there, no
expectations, no accountability,no direction, no vision, where?
So if command and control isexcessively hands-on you you
know, excessively hands-on, soI'm micromanaging abdicate and
(25:17):
abandon is excessively hands-offno leadership, no expectations,
no accountability, and that'snot going to work, no more than
excessive micromanagement isgoing to work very well in a new
world.
So trust and inspire is reallya third alternative.
It's hand in hand, we're doingthis with each other and we're
(25:40):
building the agreement togetheraround the results that we're
seeking.
So I'm going to argue there'sactually more control in a trust
and inspire culture than thereis even in a command and control
culture.
Because in a trust and inspireculture than there is even in a
command and control culture,because in a command and control
culture the control comesthrough the micromanagement, the
(26:08):
hovering over and through rules.
In a trust and inspire culture,the control comes through the
culture itself and through therelationship and through the
agreement that you buildtogether with expectations and
with accountability.
So you build the agreementaround the trust that you're
extending and giving and thenthe agreement governs.
You don't have to hover overand micromanage people, but you
haven't lost control because youbuilt an agreement and people
(26:30):
report on how they're doingagainst the agreement you built
together.
But you don't dictate theagreement to the MC.
A command and control leaderwill just dictate the agreement,
say here's how we'll judge youand here's how I'll see how
you're doing, and they dictateit.
A trust and inspire leaderbuilds it with them and there's
far more buy-in to it becausethere's more involvement,
(26:52):
there's more commitment to it,there's more buy-in to achieve
it better.
And I'm going to argue there'smore control in this agreement
that you've built together andpeople evaluate themselves
against the agreement.
They report back to you on howthey're doing.
It looks and feels differentand yet there's more control in
it.
So I see it as a thirdalternative.
And to those that argue thatthis seems soft and weak, I'm
(27:16):
saying you're describingabdicate and abandon, not trust
and inspire.
This is a third alternative.
As a trust and inspire leader,you can be author, visionary,
(27:38):
without being exclusive.
You can be even detail-orientedwithout being trusting, and you
can be in charge and havecontrol without being
controlling.
But you do it through theagreement that you build
together and it's reallypowerful.
And so that's my response tothe kind of the cynic that's
saying this sounds nice but itsounds soft and weak.
(28:01):
I'm saying no, this is actuallythe strongest form of
leadership we can lead withtoday.
Maybe one last idea, framing onthis third alternative idea and
you mentioned it, you know aboutmanagement and leadership.
Again, it's not management isbad, leadership is good.
They're both good, they're bothvital.
We need good management, justlike we need good leadership.
(28:22):
The key is the context.
We manage things, we leadpeople, and we need great
management of things, of systems, of structures, of processes,
of tools, of inventories, of thenumbers of the business.
We manage things but we leadpeople.
But sometimes we've gotten sogood at managing things that we
(28:43):
start to manage people as ifthey were things, and if we keep
doing that in this new world,we might end up with no people
in a lot of things, because theyhave choices.
They have options.
They can go elsewhere.
It's not either.
Or it's in Manage, things leadpeople.
Let's get really good at this.
And Trust Inspire equips uswith both mindsets for the
(29:05):
different contexts that we bringto it.
So I think this is actuallystrong leadership.
It has control built in, adifferent kind of control.
It's not hovering overmicromanagement, but it's rather
control through the agreementwe built together, through the
context of the culture and therelationship that we've
established.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
That makes sense, absolutely, yeah, absolutely,
and I I think it's you know theum, what, what's what's really
interesting about this, thisapproach is you know, a lot of
times I think the perception ofcommand and control is, you know
, it's all about alwaysunderstanding what's happening
and and and tracking and youknow, ver and verifying and
(29:45):
micromanaging.
I think it would be a commondefinition there, and a lot of
times we can trick ourselvesinto thinking we actually know
what's happening or we know whatpeople are doing.
But the reality is, at least inmy experience, a lot of times,
when there's an absence of trustin that style of management,
you actually don't know what'sgoing on, because people are
(30:07):
afraid to tell you and so thatyou know they're, they're, maybe
they're modifying the system sothat it looks like something's
happened.
But I, a lot of times you'resurprised and it actually it's a
lack of control that actuallyexists in a system, because,
because you don't have thatlevel of trust and and and you
don't, you know, you don't havethe inspiration for people to be
inspired enough to say, hey, ifwe make this decision, this is
(30:28):
what's going to happen to thecustomer sentiment down the road
, because this is what you know,like you just, you won't have
that dialogue, you'll have morepoor results, right?
So I think to that point alittle bit of a light bulb
moment.
For me.
It was like well, command andcontrol you don't.
You might even know what you'retrying to control.
You might not even have theright information.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
That's terrific.
That's really insightful.
Kyle, I agree completely thateven the control that you have
is not as robust as you thoughtit was, because it's not genuine
, it's not dealing with the realissues.
You're only getting what peopleare willing to say, what they
dare to say and willing to speakup about, but not everything
else that's truly happening,because there's fear and they're
(31:08):
not going to say it, and sothere's a whole lot of things
that you don't even know aboutthe organization or the culture
and it's not being volunteered.
So your control is a falsesense of control.
It's really not as robust inany sense and as real as this
other.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Yeah, I think anybody listening to this podcast.
First of all, I don't thinkthat there's anybody listening
to this podcast.
That's like arguing againstthis.
It's more like I think thatcontext is important for the
people that are going to pushback on HR professionals, that
are pushing for this.
That's right Most commonly, butI think every HR professional
right now is just kind ofsmirking themselves and going,
yep, I've seen that so manytimes where we all think that we
(31:50):
know what's happening,especially in the boardroom or
in a conference room or in ameeting, and then we go out and
we talk to that one person, oneperson out there on the floor
that knows exactly what's goingon, and they tell us the truth.
And a lot of times HR is themiddle person between that,
where we're trying to convey thereality of what's happening to
leadership and we've got a frontrow seat to the ineffectiveness
(32:12):
of this style at times.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Yeah, and I do think that HR can be the catalyst to
help shift the paradigm.
I agree To help bring thisabout, to give people a new
vision of where we can go, canbe the catalyst to help shift
the paradigm.
I agree To help bring thisabout, to give people a new
vision of where we can go andwhy we need to go there and why
this is a better way to lead.
And they can speak, when wespeak the language, of what the
(32:37):
line leaders are wanting, thebusiness leaders are wanting, so
that we're relevant to them butpaint the vision of what's
possible in their language.
That's where we really make aconnection and show that we
understand the business and weknow how to lead the business to
that point.
And I think HR can lead thislike no one else.
For all those reasons and I doagree that this probably
(32:58):
resonates with the HRprofessional that says I know
I've been trying to say this andI'm trying to give the language
of how we can connect it to thevery things that the line
leaders want, which I know iswhat the HR team is wanting to
do as well, and so it's really apowerful connection.
But here's the thing, for allour progress that we've made in
(33:20):
the HR community, in theleadership community, towards
kind of.
Someone might hear this and saythis is really not.
Is this really a new way tolead?
Haven't we been talking aboutthis for the last decade plus?
Well, we have, but we're stillnot doing it, and the data shows
that still, about nine out of10 organizations are still
(33:41):
trapped in some form of thecommand and control model.
It may not be the authoritarianapproach, it might be the more
enlightened version of it, butstill the majority, the vast
majority, are still trapped incommand and control.
And I argue this to know andnot to do is not to know.
(34:04):
So we're still not.
The fact that we're not doingit means that we still haven't
made the leap, broken through,shifted the paradigm, and we've
got to do that, and I think HRcan be a catalyst to lead us
towards that.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
To lead us towards that Absolutely, and I think you
know to that point and I'vealways said this you know HR is
in a unique point, in a positionwhere we have a lot of we have
a lot of power, whether werealize it or not, and one of
those areas where we have theability to really shape an
organization is the learning anddevelopment journey that we
(34:40):
take our leaders through.
And so one thing I did want totalk about maybe going back to
the speed of trust is I knowthat there's been a focus on
updating some of the content tobe more reflective of the
shifting world of work and thatyou've got some new courses
available specifically to helpHR professionals on their
(35:02):
learning and development relatedto trust and a couple of new
workshops.
Can you tell us a little bitabout the workshops the leading
at the speed of trust andworking at the speed of trust
workshops that you've beenworking on?
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Absolutely.
Yeah, this is all about helpingleaders and teams and
organizations build high trustteams, high trust cultures,
getting good at this.
And we've had these workshopsreally for a decade plus 15
years plus.
That have been superb.
We just have a new, refreshed,updated version of it.
(35:33):
So those that have used theSpeed of Trust stuff, it's just
a refreshed, re-imagined,updated version for our time.
And what I would highlight isthat we've also got now we're
showing how trust is builtthrough our credibility and our
behavior, which is kind of theessence of the speed of trust,
(35:53):
of helping people do itintentionally, on purpose, and
giving them a framework and alanguage and a process of how to
do it.
And now we've gone to going toanother level of saying not only
can we do this as leaders andas individuals, but we can do it
as a team and as anorganization and build a
high-trust culture and build ahigh-trust team.
(36:14):
So we've got a whole new moduleon building high-trust teams
through credibility and behaviorand high-trust relationships
with customers and partnersthrough credibility and behavior
and high trust relationshipwith customers and partners
through credibility and behavior.
It's just so practical, sotangible, so actionable.
So I think that those that arefamiliar with this already will
love it because it takes it to awhole nother level.
(36:34):
And those that aren't familiarwith it, this will be kind of a
natural next step to say, okay,how do we if, if, if, if?
Building a high trust, team andculture is so important, how do
we do it?
How do I lead that from HR?
And this will help you doprecisely that.
It gives you the, the language,the framework, the process of
(36:55):
becoming, you know,intentionally good at building
trust on purpose in our teamsand organizations, and so we're
excited, delighted about whatwe've done to make this so fresh
, so relevant in our world today, which it really is, and it
really kind of is fitting thislanguage of trust and inspire,
of really being where you know,meeting people, where we're at
(37:17):
and where society is at andpeople are at today, to keep
this fresh and relevant forothers.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Absolutely and, and you know maybe a maybe a comment
on that.
You know I've I've used speedof trust, and, and and those
types of tools for for manyyears as a, as a practicing HR
professional.
I I I try to give it to anyleader that's going through some
development with me.
One of the I think the one ofthe really powerful things about
that book is it gives you astructure to talk about trust.
(37:44):
It's not this nebulous concept.
It actually gets down tobuilding out some language
around it and some protocols tothink about, and once you start
to use that within yourorganization and with your
leaders, it's pretty amazing tosee that start to become
pervasive throughout theday-to-day conversations and
(38:05):
culture, and it really can helpreshape your workplace.
So I would strongly encourageanybody to check that out.
I think I can guarantee you Ihaven't got to the new workshops
yet, but I can guarantee youthat it's going to be well worth
your time.
So, with that being said, youare an extremely be well with
you with your time.
So, with that being said, youare an extremely busy man and
sincerely appreciate your time.
(38:26):
We are quickly coming to theclose of our available time
together.
I'm fascinated to hear yourresponses to the rebel HR flash
round.
Are you ready?
I'm ready, yeah all right, herewe go.
Question number one where doeshr need to rebel?
Speaker 2 (38:43):
hr needs to rebel against command and control and
say there's a better way to lead, and it's trust and inspire.
And I know they rebel alreadyin the paradigm.
Now I think we need to shiftbeyond the paradigm, into the
language, into the systems, intothe structures and the
(39:07):
practices, so that we're sayingwe must make this shift, because
I believe that command andcontrol is the equivalent of
modern day bloodletting, if youthink about it.
Bloodletting went on for 3000years, started with the
Egyptians, went to the Romans,but it persisted.
(39:29):
And even when it was disproventhat it doesn't work the disease
was not in the blood.
That was in the 15 and 1600s itstill persisted for another 250
years.
It was still practiced becauseold paradigms die hard.
And so, while the HR I thinkcommunity gets it that we need
to make this shift, I think thepractice of command and control
(39:53):
leadership is still the commonpractice and that is modern day
bloodletting.
We need to rebel against modernday bloodletting and say no,
we've got to lead in a new wayand it's in our language.
Even you know the idea of oftop down and hierarchies and the
front line and and rank andfile.
It's just in our language.
(40:14):
We got to choose differentlanguage.
In our systems we have, youknow, we look at high potentials
what does that say abouteverybody else and how you've
seen others and we look at thestructures and the processes and
there's just a lot of rebelling.
We need to do and say no, it'snot span of control, it's span
(40:35):
of care, as Bob Chapman says andothers, and we're going to
rebel in our language, in oursystems, in our structures, in
our processes, in our tools, andwe're going to become trust and
inspire.
And so that's it.
We got to rebel against commandand control, not just in the
paradigm, which I think is whereit starts, but in the systems
and the structures and theprocesses and the tools and in
(40:57):
the very language that we'reusing.
And I think we can rebel and bethe catalyst to change the way
that we practice this in all itsrespect.
We can get rid of bloodletting.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
And we can do it faster than 250 years.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
We can do it faster, we can do it so much faster.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Couldn't agree more.
Very well said.
Question number two who shouldwe be listening to?
Question number two who shouldwe be?
Speaker 2 (41:21):
listening to Thinkers , leaders, practitioners that
are saying this very thing thatwe need a paradigm shift.
We need a sea change, adramatic shift, not an
incremental shift.
And because incrementalismwon't get us to where we need to
be, it won't build a high-trustculture that inspires, and it
(41:44):
won't help us collaborate andinnovate in a changing, shifting
, disruptive world, it won't doit fast enough.
And you know we don't have the250 years, we don't have two and
a half years.
We got to move faster.
And so for leaders and thinkersI'm just thinking of Francis
Fry and Ann Morris, harvardBusiness School.
(42:05):
Francis Fry, who wrote Unleashedand this new book, move Fast
and Fix Things, you know, thatare just saying we've got to
move fast and fix things.
We've got a new paradigm,unleashing everyone and the
potential, the greatness.
Potential, the greatness, youknow, thinking of Aaron Meyer
(42:28):
and Reed Hastings and the norules rule that they've employed
at Netflix.
That includes getting rid ofcontrols as you increase the
trust and the straight talk andall the things that are
happening to try to unleash thecontrols that are in place, that
are traditional, and we've gotto get rid of them in a way that
really is working.
And so thinkers like this DougConant, great practitioner,
(42:53):
thinker, who wrote the Blueprint, and others that are thinking
about whole new ways of leading,so big paradigm shifters that
are not.
They're not into incrementalshifts and change, but into sea
changes and dramatic changes.
And I'm trying to say this thethe big shift is to move from
command and control to trust,inspire.
(43:14):
That's.
That's the type of thing thatwe need love it, love it.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
the world's not changing incrementally, it's
changing exponentially.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
The world is changing exponentially and our style of
leadership needs to changeexponentially with it.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
You need to get ahead of it Absolutely.
Last question how can ourlisteners reach out, connect
with you and get their hands onthe book and the workshops?
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Wonderful.
We'll go to trustandinspirecom,which is a website, and there
you can get the book.
You can get other resources,tools, ideas, thinking around
this, and I'd love you toconnect with me.
I'm on LinkedIn.
You can follow me on LinkedIn,Also on X the old Twitter, and
(43:57):
on Instagram at StephenMRCovey,and so follow me.
Go to TrustAndInspirecom,connect with me and love to be
able to help in any way that Ican, that we can, our team.
(44:26):
This is exciting work and Iwould just say this to you in HR
, you can go first.
Someone needs to go first.
Leaders go first and as an HRprofessional, you can go first.
I'm right now working.
I'll give you two cases of theHR team going first, the HR
leader going first.
One where we're dealing with anorganization that is going
through all kinds of change butthey're trapped in a command and
control style of leadership.
They almost don't see it.
They're like fish that discoverwater last.
They're so immersed in itthey're not even aware that it's
(44:49):
in how they're leading.
But the HR team is the teamthat's putting up the mirror.
But they are modeling by firstapplying this within their own
team and they're going first andthey're helping.
Then the rest of theorganization see that, that they
can do this.
But they're seeing a model byin the HR team by showing them
there's a better way to lead andlook how we're doing it.
(45:10):
That is pretty remarkable andthey're helping, and they're and
they're helping the rest of theteam see how they can do it too
.
And and and then.
A second example of when Iactually highlight in the Trust
Inspire book, of how a hugeparadigm shift happened where
the CEO got behind all thechanges that needed to be made
(45:30):
and everyone says we need a CEOlike that.
And what I point out is that itdidn't start with the CEO.
It started with the leader ofHR.
They began to implement thesechanges within her organization,
her team, and, as they did itthere, they then began to work
within the partner organizationsthat they served with as
partners and they began to seethe business leader would work
(45:53):
with the HR partner and began tosee a better way of working
together, began to model, itbegan to bring it in there and
one by one, almost business unitby business unit, it got
brought to the CEO of a betterway to lead.
And finally the CEO said gosh,I'm talking to several of you,
my direct reports.
You're doing this in adifferent way and don't we need
(46:13):
this for the whole organizationand bought into it organization
wide and you love that.
And I've had people say, gosh,we need a CEO like that.
And I say yes, but it didn'tstart with the CEO.
It started with Janita, withinher circle of influence,
bringing about this changewithin the HR team and it
rippled out and then up and thendown throughout the entire
(46:35):
organization.
That's what we need and you andHR can go first.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
I love it.
I love it, Steven.
It's been absolutely amazing tohave you on the podcast.
Thank you again so much forjoining us.
Thank you for all of thewonderful content and I can't
wait to see what you come upwith next.
We will have all those links inthe show notes.
Please open up the podcastplayer.
Check it out.
You will not be disappointed.
Steven M R Covey, everybodyThank you.
Speaker 2 (47:09):
Thank you, kyle.
Let me just say this it's anhonor to be with you, I
appreciate you.
I feel like I'm talking to akindred spirit, I agree and
really a co-catalyst to helpunleash the greatness of our
organizations by firstunleashing the greatness of our
people.
And that's the whole idea and Ilove the whole premise of Rebel
Human Resources podcast, rebelHR, and that's the kind of sea
(47:29):
change that we need is takingthis on, and this is an
extraordinary place to rebelagainst leadership style.
And so let's rebel and let's gofrom command and control to
trust and inspire.
And thank you for being acatalyst, a co-catalyst with me
to help bring this about.
Speaker 1 (47:47):
I'm going to just I'm just going to leave it right
there, steven.
Thank you so much.
The honor is all mine.
Thank you for everything overthe years and for the continued
inspiration.
Thank you, you're welcome.
Thank you, my friend.
All right, that does it for theRebel HR podcast.
Big thank you to our guests.
Follow us on Facebook at RebelHR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR
(48:11):
guy, or see our website atrebelhumanresourcescom.
The views and opinionsexpressed by Rebel HR podcast
are those of the authors and donot necessarily reflect the
official policy or position ofany of the organizations that we
represent.
No animals were harmed duringthe filming of this podcast.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Baby.
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