July 24, 2024 • 34 mins
What does it take to triumph over loneliness, stress, anxiety, and depression at the highest levels of business? Imagine reaching the peak of your career only to find yourself feeling isolated and overwhelmed. Nick Jonsson, author of "Executive Loneliness: The Five Pathways to Overcoming Isolation, Stress, Anxiety, and Depression in the Modern Business World," joins us to share his deeply personal journey through these exact challenges. Nick's story is a powerful reminder that even the most successful individuals can face mental health struggles, and his candidness about his resignation and fight with depression highlights the importance of self-honesty and understanding the root causes of our feelings.
Throughout our conversation, Nick emphasizes the need for robust support systems, including mentors, coaches, and peer networks. We explore the often-hidden world of executive loneliness and the critical resources available, from charities to hotlines, all designed to provide free and accessible help. Nick's own experiences with overcoming socially acceptable addictions, like alcohol, offer a compelling look at the importance of vulnerability and storytelling in breaking mental health stigmas. By sharing his journey, Nick encourages others to take that crucial first step toward seeking help and building a resilient support network.
We also touch on the significant role that community and mentorship play in personal and professional growth. Drawing from a real-life example of a friend’s wife navigating the HR field, Nick highlights the benefits of connecting with local groups to manage work stress effectively. Our discussion wraps up with reflections on the profound impact of executive loneliness and the invaluable guidance that mentors and coaches provide. For anyone interested in delving deeper into these themes, Nick Johnson's book, "Executive Loneliness," is available on Amazon and LinkedIn. Join us for an episode filled with insights, inspiration, and practical advice for maintaining mental well-being in high-pressure environments.
Rebel HR is a podcast for HR professionals and leaders of people who are ready to make some disruption in the world of work. Please connect to continue the conversation!
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https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-roed/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
This is the Rebel HR podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:04):
The podcast about all things innovation in the
people's space.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I'm Kyle Rode.
Let's start the show.
Welcome back Rebel HR community.
We are going to have an amazingconversation today on a topic
that I think needs to be talkedabout more and is extremely
important.
Topic that I think needs to betalked about more and is
extremely important.
With us today we have NickJohnson.
(00:31):
Nick is the author of the bookthat's available where books are
sold, called ExecutiveLoneliness the Five Pathways to
Overcoming Isolation, stress,anxiety and Depression in the
Modern Business World.
Nick, thanks for joining ustoday.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Thank you so much for inviting me, kyle.
It's a pleasure to be here Wellpleasure to have you.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I know you are hot off your speaking tour and
trying to find a time zone wherethe two of us could actually
connect was a little bitchallenging, so I'm glad that we
finally were able to connecthere today.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, likewise, it's a traveling world at the moment.
The globalization is certainlythere, but it's great that we
can do this online.
Otherwise, I had to get over tothe US as well.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I think you know, isolation, loneliness, anxiety,
depression, burnout.
You know we're just nowstarting to, I think, elevate
(01:35):
this conversation to somethingthat we can actually start to do
something about.
I appreciate you a little bitahead of the curve writing this
book and you know it's been outhere for a few years now here
for a few years now.
I'd like to maybe understand,before we dive into the topic,
what motivated you to write abook specifically on executive
moment.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah.
So it is a topic that was on mymind as I elbowed my way to the
top for my career.
Society set me up for successand it can be very lonely if you
follow that.
So once I reached the top of mycareer, I was a managing
director of a large medicalcompany.
You know, I started to questionmyself Is this what I worked so
hard for?
Was it really worth it?
And I started to haveself-doubt and really I felt
extremely lonely at the top, somuch so that eventually I
(02:22):
resigned from this job and Ididn't have any answers.
So much so that eventually Iresigned from this job and I
didn't have any answers.
But what happened then, afterthat, was that I realized there
was a lot of others who alsowere in a similar position and
that intrigued me to then dosome research and interviews.
And during that time also, Iwent into a depression myself
and I had some major issues atmy end.
So all that together sort ofpropelled me forward to start
(02:46):
writing the book.
In the end also, I lost a goodfriend of mine, a colleague of
mine, to suicide, and that wasthe nail in the coffin.
Then I said I just have to dothis.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Yeah.
So first of all, thank you forbeing vulnerable and kind of
open to putting this together.
I know that that's tough andI'm so sorry to hear about you
losing a friend.
Unfortunately, I think thatthis has become a common
narrative in many people whowould be considered externally
(03:24):
very successful, right, and sooften we get these like there's
this perception that once I makeit, once I get to that top or I
get to that C-level position orthat HR leadership position,
now I'm gonna have it made.
But that's not always thefeeling when you're there.
(03:45):
So for those of us that aremaybe listening to this, I'm
thinking, yeah, I'm prettylonely, or yeah, this isn't all
it's cracked up to be.
What are some areas that youthink that we need to really
start to focus in on as we startthis healing journey of coming
out of the executive level?
As we start this healingjourney?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
of coming out of the executive world.
I think the starting point isto just be honest with ourselves
.
We need to do an audit ofourselves, almost like if you
think of a shop owner who do anaudit or a stock take you know,
to know where we are.
They check the inventory.
But we are so busy runningthrough our lives and especially
if you're in the HR, you're sobusy focusing on looking after
(04:26):
others that it's easy to forgetyourself.
So we need to really do thatand sit down with a pen and
paper or a spreadsheet, andperhaps with a coach, a mentor,
a sponsor or a friend of someonewho can hold us accountable,
and just really really do thisand write down the things that
are going on in our lives.
And of course, there might bereasons why we are isolating.
In my case, there was, forexample, some issues that I
(04:48):
didn't deal with and justbecause I became overwhelmed, I
couldn't keep up with everything.
And then, when the self-doubtcome in, then you start
questioning everything you doand then the natural default can
be the next step to isolate.
So there are reasons why weisolate and we have those
feelings.
So my point here is we need toreally go to the root cause here
before we can address it yeahabsolutely, I think, um, I think
(05:15):
that that, you know, advice isreally, really critical.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
It's also really difficult, right, like, like I,
you know, I think one of thesethings so, so, and I, I've, I've
experienced this in my career.
So, full disclosure this is alittle bit anecdotal from my
experience, but, like the, thefact of the matter is it's
really easy to kind of convinceyourself everything's fine,
right, like no, you know it'slike no.
(05:39):
Instead of you know, lookinginwardly or being honest and
reflective about how I'mactually feeling on a personal
level, I'll just pour all of myenergy into, you know, my job
and whatever's left over.
You know, I'll pour it into mykids, you know, maybe, maybe a
partner, and then at the end ofthe, at the end of the week, all
you've got is like, you know,you just want to fall asleep and
(06:00):
and sleep through the weekend.
Right, you know?
And I think, I think many of usare in that, in that camp.
So, for those of us that aremaybe stuck in this, like this,
this cycle, this learnedbehavior, where we just continue
to just repeat these routinesuntil we, we kind of blame out
what, what are some areas of ourlives where we, we can you know
(06:21):
kind of wake up a little bitand take stock and what are some
tactics to really truly do anhonest self-honor?
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah.
So I think it's important tolook at all the key areas of our
health, and I mean when thatcomes to physical health, the
mental health, the emotionalhealth, and I'm talking a lot
these days about the socialhealth.
The social health is about thewell-being of our relationships
personal and professional andfamily relationships.
They play a huge role andthere's been so much research
(06:51):
coming out now of big surveysthere that says if you don't
have your relationships in order, it can be as dangerous as
smoking 14 cigarettes a day.
So we might as well alsoinclude that in the list to
really look after that.
And when it comes to then therelationships, I'm a big
believer in having safe spaces.
We need to have pockets ofpeople who we can speak with and
(07:13):
where we are vulnerable, wherewe can be our authentic selves.
So when we are facing somechallenges, naturally we are in
some groups or communities wherewe are disclosing these issues
and we deal with them are insome groups or communities where
we are disclosing these issuesand we deal with them.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's um, I don't know, but it's,
it's so easy to in a humanisticprofession like this and in a
leadership role in general.
Just just kind of focus oneverybody else, right Like that,
you know.
But you know the, the, thelevel of like actual friendship,
(07:52):
like like true friendship,right Like vulnerable, open.
You know relationships where,where you've got this level of
like trust, um, even the, thedark side of you know the, the
things that you're experiencingand the fact that you have
somebody to share that with.
It.
Not always easy, and I I feellike the, the more established
(08:17):
you get in your career, thehigher that you get within an
organization, the less of thoseyou tend to have right Like, and
you know, I think it's one ofthose things that you don't
necessarily nurture it, as thateventually just goes away.
So so, as I know, you've beenfocused on social health and I
(08:38):
think social health is a littlebit of a you know it's.
It may be a little bit of anewer revelation, but there's
been a lot of really, reallycompelling research around.
You know relationships and someaspects of social health that
we should be focused on as abusiness professional.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Yeah.
So with the social health,again, it starts with awareness.
It starts with awareness andthe honesty to ourselves to
really think about therelationships, and to start with
the relationships then withourselves.
You know, are we isolatingourselves or are we in denial,
or are we honest to ourselvesand standing, owning up to the
issues that we are facing?
(09:26):
I think we are only ready forthe social health and the social
relationships once we have ourown house in order.
We got to love ourselves beforewe can love others, and
according to me, it's love inromantic relationships, but it's
love in friendships and working.
It's all on the spectrum oflove, and so that is the first
(09:47):
step.
And then, when it comes then tothe other relationships, yeah,
you can say that it's familyfirst, and it's so many
professionals these days whowould say oh yeah, I didn't
speak to my brother for twoyears.
You know I don't have a goodrelationship with my father.
Well, if that's the case, howcan you then have a good
relationship with your husbandor wife and then with your
(10:09):
colleagues?
It's very, very difficult,again, if you don't have the
things close to you in order.
So it's about being proactivehere, and just like we are
proactive these days about ourphysical health by exercising
and having a healthy diet and soon, and we're increasingly
looking after the mental health.
But I say that we need to lookafter social health as well, and
(10:30):
that means to repair and healbroken relationships, and I know
that's very painful, but we gotto make amends, we got to
apologize, we've got to own up,to decide the things that we
have perhaps damaged, and it ishere about cleaning up our side
of the street.
We cannot take responsibilityfor the other party, but clean
(10:50):
up your side of the street andhave all of that in order and
lead by example.
If you're an HR professional,then if we do this, then and our
teams do that then we're goingto work in a place where the
work culture is more warm, moreopen.
There'll be more engagedemployees, less sick days and
all of these things in the end,more returns for the owners of
(11:12):
the business.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Yeah, I think it's interesting.
You know as much of these typesof you know endeavors do.
There's usually a positiveripple effect in the world of
work, right?
So you know, as you do theself-work, that, yeah, like you
said, sometimes this stuff ishard and it sucks and it's
really really not something thatyou like, have a strong desire
(11:39):
to do.
But it could be really reallyimportant, right and necessary
for healing.
But that'll reverberate, right,like if you're in a better
place, if you are healthier,that will only make the
workplace healthier.
(12:00):
It's natural.
That's how it works.
I think it's really reallycritical that the reality is
that sometimes we don't have theskills to do this on our own
(12:26):
Right.
You know, sometimes we needhelp.
Do you recommend that peoplethink about getting, or maybe
where can people who are feelingdrawn to do something but don't
(12:49):
necessarily have the skills orthe toolkit to do it, where can
they go first?
Speaker 1 (12:53):
support it depends what kind of issues and what
kind of feelings or isolationand so on they have.
And when I went through mydifficult time and after I
resigned from my job, I alsofiled for divorce and that made
me even more isolated.
I was just not ready to bequestioned by anyone, so I
pushed everyone away from me andin that space also I started to
(13:17):
pick up addiction.
And that's very common as well.
When we are in there, we changeour good habits to bad habits.
So for me that meant a tradinggym membership for a bar stool
and basically with that myhealthy diet, fast food and
pizza, and I started to drinktoo much beer, I gained a lot of
weight and I became addicted.
So again, I had to own up tothat and I went to one of the
(13:39):
12-step programs and I gotsupport there by first being
honest about my issues, owningup to that, meeting like-minded
who were going through adifficult time and who had
alcohol problems before, andthat gave me hope and they
showed me the way.
These days there's so manycharities, so many social
organizations, so many helplines, hotlines that are full of
(14:02):
volunteers who are supporting inthis for everything from
alcohol to drugs, to sex toshopping, to social media
addiction there's people thereto help.
So, if we again have done theorders properly, if we know
where the issues are, help isthere and it doesn't have to
cost an arm and a leg.
There's a lot of volunteers.
The most is actually free.
If we know where the issues are, help is there and it doesn't
have to cost an arm and a leg.
There's a lot of volunteers,the most is actually free.
(14:22):
If we want some professionalhelp, then there's coaches,
there's mentors, of course, andit's all kind of mastermind
groups, peer groups andassociations where you can ask
people who perhaps have somemore year experience than you
and they can help you.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I think this goes back tothe loneliness thing too, right
, like you're not alone, rightLike there are a lot of people
that are, you know, strugglingwith this type of thing, and so
you know, kind of finding peoplethat have gone through similar
situations maybe are currentlygoing through it and are you
(15:00):
know, on a on a road to recoveryor support can be can be really
, you know, really reallyhelpful.
Um, I'm curious maybe to youknow understand a little bit
more about how you have, uh,thought about this topic as you
wrote the book.
You know you really you focusedon on five pathways to overcome
(15:25):
executive loneliness.
What are those five pathwaysand and why were those the focus
areas for you?
Speaker 1 (15:33):
yeah, and it's good timing to bring them in, because
we already covered the firstone.
And the first step is just whatwe talked about about taking
stock.
It's about that audit to lookat yourself and then so we can
cover now the second one, whichis actually once you've done
that audit.
It's about taking that list andthinking about who you can ask
for help.
(15:53):
So it's really taking action onthat.
So if you write it in aspreadsheet, you have one column
with issues.
In my case, it was I had toomuch weight, I was drinking too
much alcohol, there was somebroken relationships and I
needed help.
So I put all that down.
And then the second row, I putsome names of people who I could
(16:15):
ask for help, and then the nextstep then is to start asking
them and just ticking the boxesand going to see the friends
calling the hotline, so gettingthe help you need really.
And I say that we have to lookafter the body first the
physical health has to comefirst and the mental health, so
(16:35):
that we get the house in order.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Absolutely the mental health so that we get the house
in order.
Absolutely, um, as you werewriting this, I'm curious.
Um, my, my assumption is youprobably ran into to many other
people that were dealing with asimilar you know kind of a
similar situation.
Were there any any commonthemes to individuals that were
struggling with this that youobserved?
Speaker 1 (17:07):
I would say that the most common replies I had as I
started to write and talk aboutthis was just a big surprise.
There's so many times thatpeople have said I've been
waiting all my life for someoneto talking about this and I can,
for example, within 24 hours ofme going viral with this and
(17:28):
sharing my story, I was on TV,radio and in over 20 newspapers,
and in Singapore, where I spentmost of my time, the biggest
business newspaper there calledBusiness Times, they wrote a
four pages feature on my storyand the book and so on, because
they said we wanted to writethis kind of story for so many
(17:50):
years, but there was never, everanyone daring or willing to be
vulnerable and step forward.
Everyone was okay to share thestory, but anonymously.
We need a person.
So they had my picture there.
And's what was.
What's also what the publishersaid nick, you're sharing your
own story here in this, in thebook.
This is very unique, so that'swhy the, the publisher even
(18:12):
insisted that I'm on the, on theon the cover, because people
need to see that this isactually real people behind this
, and so so that was the mainpoint of the book was to break
the stigma, and I had to have mystory there.
So it was a difficult decision,but it's the best decision I've
done in my life to step forwardhere.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, yeah.
And again, you know a highlevel of vulnerability, right?
You know honesty.
I'm sure that was personallydifficult to open up that way.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yes, it was, but the reward is there.
And I want to say also, kyle,every time I have a chance to
share this and share my storyand just to admit to myself and
to others and to say to you andyour listeners today that as I
went through this, I had analcohol issue.
That was very, very hard for meto admit.
That sat really deep.
Now it's six years ago since Ihad my last drink and it's a bit
(19:08):
easier to say so, but foranyone who has any addiction, we
will do anything we can, and itdoesn't matter if it's that
we're workaholics, that we'reworking 14 hours a day, because
most of us would be in denial,and we'll do everything we can
to defend those things.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah, totally, you know, I think.
And first of all, you know,congratulations for six years.
I know that's no easy feat, butalcohol is one of those things
it's, you know, in many casesit's societally acceptable.
It's one of those things it's,you know, in many cases it's
(19:55):
societally acceptable.
It's also in the business world, super common, right, Like it's
, like it's hard, it's likeyou're walking away from a, you
know, a task.
That is certainly certainly achallenge.
I, I, I haven't drank for aboutsix months.
Um and uh, you know, for, uh,for, for for similar reasons,
mostly mental and physicalhealth.
You know it's it.
It wasn't helpful, right, butbut it's it, but it's.
It's easy to make that realism,to come to that realization.
(20:20):
It's a lot harder to actuallyexecute on, not right, that
point of you know kind ofburnout and isolation and
loneliness, and you talked aboutsome of the things you had to
(20:43):
overcome all the way to, youknow, ironman, right?
So how did you navigate thatjourney?
Once you did the audit, youwere honest with yourself and
you started to tap into yourresources that can help you come
out of it.
You know how did you navigatethrough the rest of that journey
.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Yeah.
So the model that I used to comeout of the loneliness and
getting myself healthy proved tobe a winner and I thought I can
apply this to everything inlife, anything I want to do, and
I did it then on the sport ofIronman, where I was completely
vulnerable and open and I signedup with swim coaches, run
(21:24):
coaches, cycling coaches,triathlon academies, getting the
social life and always askingquestions, asking the people
who'd been there before, gettingthe nutrition tips and
everything.
And most of these tips, again,are free.
Most people are happy to share.
If you want 10 minutes, theywill give you 10 minutes for
free with some of the top tips.
(21:44):
If you want an hour, you can.
You can get it at the rate.
So I just apply that to thesport of ironman and that took
me all the way to becoming toptwo percent world and I I just
qualify now for the worldchampionship in my age group in
the half Ironman distance, whereI will go to New Zealand in
December and compete.
So it just proves that it worksand I applied it to a few other
(22:09):
areas also of my life and itworks in every area.
That's awesome, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
I have done a half Ironman the best I can say is, I
finished after, but.
But.
But you know what?
Here's the thing, nick like.
So I did not do what you did,right, I tried to do it myself
and I did finish, but I didn'texcel, you know.
So, as I listened to you, it'slike, you know, a little bit of
(22:37):
a light bulb moment for me,where it's like I didn't focus
on the social aspect of it, Ididn't get coaches, I took, you
know, no-transcript as well as,obviously, the physical and
(23:19):
mental health aspect.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
And then I wanted to test thatalso in the public speaking
arena.
So I'd done presentations allmy life, I'd done some speaking
and so on.
But then I put a target asmyself I really, really want to
break through as a professionalspeaker.
So I did again this I made alist of all the top 30 speakers
in Asia and I reached out tothem and some were willing to
(23:43):
give me some mentor calls andchecking in with them.
I just asked them you know whathave you done?
What?
Were willing to give me somementor calls and checking in
with them.
I just asked them you know whathave you done?
What are the secrets, any tips?
And if you speak to 15, 20professional speakers who are
the best, you get a pretty longlist of things to do and as long
as you action some of them andat least one or two points of
everyone, you know things thatget moving really, really
quickly.
And a few of them got reallyinspired when they saw me going
(24:06):
and a few of them havevolunteered to be non-paid sort
of volunteers for me as theirmentors and I can call them
anytime to get free tips andthey're linking me up and giving
me keynotes all over the worldnow.
So I was fully booked sinceMarch, basically going around
the world.
I had to fly twice to Maldives,even to give speaks.
Maldives, yeah, you hear thatSure.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Had to fly twice to Maldives even to give speaks.
Maldives, oh yeah, you hearthat.
Sure Maldives, sure Maldives.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
If you want the Rebel HR podcast, a live podcast in
Maldives.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yeah, but you know, as evidenced by how hard it was
to get you, you know, connectedI, you know.
Again, I think that's that's.
You know you're tapping intothe power I, I.
Actually, to me, what I'mhearing is like you're tapping
into the power of your story andyour vulnerability and your and
your, your willingness to askfor help and like be be open and
(25:01):
honest with people like, hey,this is what I want to do, what,
what do you?
What tips do you have?
And, and it sounds like, forthe most part, it's been an
extremely positive experiencefor you.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yes, of course you get a couple of no's, but you
just keep going and there willbe enough people who are willing
to help you.
And then there's professionalspeaking associations I joined
and now, as they had theirmentoring program, I said now is
my chance to give back.
And I'm actually mentoring nineprofessional speakers now and I
group them up.
(25:33):
We have a session every monthwhere I'm helping them to take
them through the journey ofbecoming professional speakers
themselves.
So it's all about giving itback at the end of the day as
well.
And in the triathlon communityI'm also coaching and mentoring,
helping younger people also inthe sport, not with the
professional side.
Community, I'm also coachingand mentoring, helping younger
people also in the sport, notwith a professional side, but to
also find a profession outsidethe sport so they have a life
(25:53):
and an income outside.
So whatever also I've done andeverything that happened to me
the six years, I'm also givingback now and that gives me then
fulfillment as well yeah,absolutely yeah, I think it's.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
You know what's what's.
What's really interesting here,is it?
It's such a rewarding thing tolike make these connections.
Obviously you're addressing theloneliness concern there by
just by making the connections.
And then you know researchafter research shows like giving
back actually makes you happierthan receiving, right?
(26:30):
You know, actually, investingand and pouring into into others
can, can, can be, you know,medicine for the soul, right?
So, um, so good for you for, uh, for giving back.
I think one of the things it'sit easy for us to agree with
(26:52):
this stuff and I think I've hada couple maybe light bulb
moments as we've talked heretoday professionals that feel
duck, like like they understand,hey, I'm looking for, you know,
I understand I need to figureout this social, you know,
(27:13):
health thing.
I know I need to find somehelpers.
I know I need to be vulnerable,but I don't I, I don't know
that I'm comfortable doing that.
You know, like in the workplace, right, especially, I think a
lot of times, like our friendsare at work Most friends are
made at work in many cases butin like an HR position or an
executive position, you knowthat's not really possible
(27:35):
because you, you know, you knowwhat everybody makes.
You've got all theseconfidentiality requirements.
You don't want to have anawkward conversation with
somebody or reboot plan at theyou know family barbecue.
An awkward conversation withsomebody or reboot plan at the
family barbecue.
So for those of us that aremaybe struggling and don't feel
comfortable doing this in a worksetting, what advice would you
have for us to go out and buildmaybe more of a social network
(27:58):
outside of the workplace inorder to fulfill that need?
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Yeah, so I think professional connections and
outside the workplace, I believewe need them on a one-on-one
basis and perhaps internally inthe company they're giving you
someone perhaps in anotheroffice as a mentor, but that
you're not going to becompletely transparent and
vulnerable there.
So look for someone perhaps whois five, 10 years ahead of you
in the career ladder in anotherorganization, someone who might
(28:25):
have worked for and see if theycan have a mentoring
relationship with you on aone-on-one basis.
That could be one thing, butotherwise look out for
mastermind groups, peer groupsperhaps, and there are groups
also in the HR field.
Look out for HR organizations,professional organizations,
(28:45):
where you can join and perhapstake on some board roles there,
to be of service as well.
That's a good way to get toknow people.
And if none of this works, thenthink about what other HR
professionals you know in othercompanies which are not in
conflict with your own businessand set up your own mastermind
group.
It can be an informal groupwhere you log on for an hour a
(29:06):
week on Teams or Zoom, or maybeyou can meet in person.
If you have some in yourcommunity, just set up that.
You only need five, seven ofyou and let's meet up once a
week and discuss what's on yourmind and just say from the
upfront that this is aconfidential meeting.
We are here to support eachother and nothing is off the
chart.
Just share what's on your mind.
What will happen then is youwill listen to others and you
(29:28):
will say, oh, I'm also goingthrough that, I also have that
issue, and then you will getthat commonality and the
sympathy that we so much need ashuman beings.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Totally yeah, and I would echo that as an example.
I was in the grocery store afew days ago and I ran into one
of my friends and his wife hadrecently got into human
resources and we got into adiscussion about it.
I had assisted with interviewprep questions and things like
(29:57):
that, so I was really happy tohear that she got the role.
But his concern was like well,she's bringing all the stress
home and she's just dumping iton me and it's like I don't know
.
It's like I don't know, youknow, it's like I'm not an hr
professional and and and youknow he had this.
Look, he's like how can I helpher?
And you know my, my advice iswell, here, guess what?
There's this hr group, there'sthis local hr group.
(30:18):
She can actually have theseconversations with local hr
professionals that are dealingwith the exact same issue.
Right like, or or at least avery, very similar issue.
And and you know, there can besome, some level of support
there and like, yeah, but it'sthings like that, right Like,
kind of look out for each other.
You know, build these, buildthese communities of support.
And you know, and and I, Ireally think it's critical, um,
(30:42):
and certainly personally, youknow, my success has been at the
uh, you know, at the support ofmy mentor.
Personally, my success has beenat the support of my mentor.
Had I not had the mentors I had, I wouldn't be where I am today
, and so being open to thatreally, really cares most Sounds
great, yeah.
(31:04):
With that being said, nick, Iwant to thank you again for for
coming on and sharing your storyand and and um, and for writing
this book, and I think it's areally, really critical topic.
I appreciate you, you know,being brave enough to uh, to
tackle it and and and to shareyour story around it.
Um, we're going to shift gears.
We're going to go into therebel HR flash round.
Are you ready?
(31:24):
Yes, let's do it.
Rebel HR flash round Are youready?
Yes, let's do it.
All right, perfect.
Question number one where do weneed to rebel?
I think we need to rebel withourselves really challenge
ourselves to break out from ourday-to-day patterns.
You know, I think if there's atheme of this conversation today
(31:47):
, a lot of it has to do withbeing honest with yourself.
That's really where it startsand I think that's the root and
that we're not alone.
We're all in this together.
I think.
Two big takeaways and I thinkareas that actually in our space
are kind of rebelliousAbsolutely there's a rebel in
all of rebellious right,absolutely.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
There's a rebel in all of them.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Just bring it out, that's great Question number two
who should we be listening?
Speaker 1 (32:15):
to and you know what I'm going to say the same thing
we need to listen to ourselves.
However, I also want to saythat we need, perhaps a coach or
someone who can help you to askthe deep questions.
You break through the glassceiling and you get a bit deeper
in yourself sometimes.
We need to be challenged, andso look for someone if you have
a mentor, a coach, who can askyou the deep questions and then
(32:36):
listen to yourself and listen tothe answers and even ask
perhaps your coach or mentor,who had this conversation, if
you are allowed to record it, soyou can listen to yourself.
And just again back to thefirst question there rebel and
challenge yourself and listen toyour inner voice.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Absolutely yeah, I couldn't agree more and I think
you know, I think this islifelong work, right, it takes
work every single day to kind offocus on these aspects of your
own personal health and yourpersonal journey.
And so you know, for any of youthat are out there and agree
and are struggling, you knowthere's a lot of us in the thing
(33:14):
both.
So just know the journey andthat we're all in it together,
all right.
Last question how can ourlisteners connect with you and
how can they get their hands onthe book?
Executive Loneliness.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Yeah, they can go to Amazon and the book is there
both as a Kindle and also as anAudible book and it's called
Executive Loneliness.
Otherwise, I'm on LinkedIn aswell.
They can look up Nick Johnson.
That's N-I-C-K-J-O-N-S-S-O-N.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Absolutely.
We will have that informationin the show notes.
Feel free to pop open thepodcast player.
Click on in the book again isExecutive Loneliness the Five
Pathways to Overcoming Isolation, stress, anxiety and Depression
in the Modern Business World.
Nick, thank you again forjoining us.
Just a really, really greatconversation on a critical topic
(34:05):
, thank you.
Thank you very much, kai.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast.
Big thank you to our guests.
Follow us on Facebook at RebelHR podcast, Twitter at Rebel HR
guy, or see our website atrebelhumanresourcescom.
The views and opinionsexpressed by rebel hr podcast
are those of the authors and donot necessarily reflect the
official policy or position ofany of the organizations that we
(34:33):
represent.
No animals were harmed duringthe filming of this podcast baby
.
This is the Rebel HR podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:04):
The podcast about all things innovation in the
people's space.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I'm Kyle Rode.
Let's start the show.
Welcome back Rebel HR community.
We are going to have an amazingconversation today on a topic
that I think needs to be talkedabout more and is extremely
important.
Topic that I think needs to betalked about more and is
extremely important.
With us today we have NickJohnson.
(00:31):
Nick is the author of the bookthat's available where books are
sold, called ExecutiveLoneliness the Five Pathways to
Overcoming Isolation, stress,anxiety and Depression in the
Modern Business World.
Nick, thanks for joining ustoday.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Thank you so much for inviting me, kyle.
It's a pleasure to be here Wellpleasure to have you.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I know you are hot off your speaking tour and
trying to find a time zone wherethe two of us could actually
connect was a little bitchallenging, so I'm glad that we
finally were able to connecthere today.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, likewise, it's a traveling world at the moment.
The globalization is certainlythere, but it's great that we
can do this online.
Otherwise, I had to get over tothe US as well.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I think you know, isolation, loneliness, anxiety,
depression, burnout.
You know we're just nowstarting to, I think, elevate
(01:35):
this conversation to somethingthat we can actually start to do
something about.
I appreciate you a little bitahead of the curve writing this
book and you know it's been outhere for a few years now here
for a few years now.
I'd like to maybe understand,before we dive into the topic,
what motivated you to write abook specifically on executive
moment.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah.
So it is a topic that was on mymind as I elbowed my way to the
top for my career.
Society set me up for successand it can be very lonely if you
follow that.
So once I reached the top of mycareer, I was a managing
director of a large medicalcompany.
You know, I started to questionmyself Is this what I worked so
hard for?
Was it really worth it?
And I started to haveself-doubt and really I felt
extremely lonely at the top, somuch so that eventually I
(02:22):
resigned from this job and Ididn't have any answers.
So much so that eventually Iresigned from this job and I
didn't have any answers.
But what happened then, afterthat, was that I realized there
was a lot of others who alsowere in a similar position and
that intrigued me to then dosome research and interviews.
And during that time also, Iwent into a depression myself
and I had some major issues atmy end.
So all that together sort ofpropelled me forward to start
(02:46):
writing the book.
In the end also, I lost a goodfriend of mine, a colleague of
mine, to suicide, and that wasthe nail in the coffin.
Then I said I just have to dothis.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Yeah.
So first of all, thank you forbeing vulnerable and kind of
open to putting this together.
I know that that's tough andI'm so sorry to hear about you
losing a friend.
Unfortunately, I think thatthis has become a common
narrative in many people whowould be considered externally
(03:24):
very successful, right, and sooften we get these like there's
this perception that once I makeit, once I get to that top or I
get to that C-level position orthat HR leadership position,
now I'm gonna have it made.
But that's not always thefeeling when you're there.
(03:45):
So for those of us that aremaybe listening to this, I'm
thinking, yeah, I'm prettylonely, or yeah, this isn't all
it's cracked up to be.
What are some areas that youthink that we need to really
start to focus in on as we startthis healing journey of coming
out of the executive level?
As we start this healingjourney?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
of coming out of the executive world.
I think the starting point isto just be honest with ourselves
.
We need to do an audit ofourselves, almost like if you
think of a shop owner who do anaudit or a stock take you know,
to know where we are.
They check the inventory.
But we are so busy runningthrough our lives and especially
if you're in the HR, you're sobusy focusing on looking after
(04:26):
others that it's easy to forgetyourself.
So we need to really do thatand sit down with a pen and
paper or a spreadsheet, andperhaps with a coach, a mentor,
a sponsor or a friend of someonewho can hold us accountable,
and just really really do thisand write down the things that
are going on in our lives.
And of course, there might bereasons why we are isolating.
In my case, there was, forexample, some issues that I
(04:48):
didn't deal with and justbecause I became overwhelmed, I
couldn't keep up with everything.
And then, when the self-doubtcome in, then you start
questioning everything you doand then the natural default can
be the next step to isolate.
So there are reasons why weisolate and we have those
feelings.
So my point here is we need toreally go to the root cause here
before we can address it yeahabsolutely, I think, um, I think
(05:15):
that that, you know, advice isreally, really critical.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
It's also really difficult, right, like, like I,
you know, I think one of thesethings so, so, and I, I've, I've
experienced this in my career.
So, full disclosure this is alittle bit anecdotal from my
experience, but, like the, thefact of the matter is it's
really easy to kind of convinceyourself everything's fine,
right, like no, you know it'slike no.
(05:39):
Instead of you know, lookinginwardly or being honest and
reflective about how I'mactually feeling on a personal
level, I'll just pour all of myenergy into, you know, my job
and whatever's left over.
You know, I'll pour it into mykids, you know, maybe, maybe a
partner, and then at the end ofthe, at the end of the week, all
you've got is like, you know,you just want to fall asleep and
(06:00):
and sleep through the weekend.
Right, you know?
And I think, I think many of usare in that, in that camp.
So, for those of us that aremaybe stuck in this, like this,
this cycle, this learnedbehavior, where we just continue
to just repeat these routinesuntil we, we kind of blame out
what, what are some areas of ourlives where we, we can you know
(06:21):
kind of wake up a little bitand take stock and what are some
tactics to really truly do anhonest self-honor?
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah.
So I think it's important tolook at all the key areas of our
health, and I mean when thatcomes to physical health, the
mental health, the emotionalhealth, and I'm talking a lot
these days about the socialhealth.
The social health is about thewell-being of our relationships
personal and professional andfamily relationships.
They play a huge role andthere's been so much research
(06:51):
coming out now of big surveysthere that says if you don't
have your relationships in order, it can be as dangerous as
smoking 14 cigarettes a day.
So we might as well alsoinclude that in the list to
really look after that.
And when it comes to then therelationships, I'm a big
believer in having safe spaces.
We need to have pockets ofpeople who we can speak with and
(07:13):
where we are vulnerable, wherewe can be our authentic selves.
So when we are facing somechallenges, naturally we are in
some groups or communities wherewe are disclosing these issues
and we deal with them are insome groups or communities where
we are disclosing these issuesand we deal with them.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's um, I don't know, but it's,
it's so easy to in a humanisticprofession like this and in a
leadership role in general.
Just just kind of focus oneverybody else, right Like that,
you know.
But you know the, the, thelevel of like actual friendship,
(07:52):
like like true friendship,right Like vulnerable, open.
You know relationships where,where you've got this level of
like trust, um, even the, thedark side of you know the, the
things that you're experiencingand the fact that you have
somebody to share that with.
It.
Not always easy, and I I feellike the, the more established
(08:17):
you get in your career, thehigher that you get within an
organization, the less of thoseyou tend to have right Like, and
you know, I think it's one ofthose things that you don't
necessarily nurture it, as thateventually just goes away.
So so, as I know, you've beenfocused on social health and I
(08:38):
think social health is a littlebit of a you know it's.
It may be a little bit of anewer revelation, but there's
been a lot of really, reallycompelling research around.
You know relationships and someaspects of social health that
we should be focused on as abusiness professional.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Yeah.
So with the social health,again, it starts with awareness.
It starts with awareness andthe honesty to ourselves to
really think about therelationships, and to start with
the relationships then withourselves.
You know, are we isolatingourselves or are we in denial,
or are we honest to ourselvesand standing, owning up to the
issues that we are facing?
(09:26):
I think we are only ready forthe social health and the social
relationships once we have ourown house in order.
We got to love ourselves beforewe can love others, and
according to me, it's love inromantic relationships, but it's
love in friendships and working.
It's all on the spectrum oflove, and so that is the first
(09:47):
step.
And then, when it comes then tothe other relationships, yeah,
you can say that it's familyfirst, and it's so many
professionals these days whowould say oh yeah, I didn't
speak to my brother for twoyears.
You know I don't have a goodrelationship with my father.
Well, if that's the case, howcan you then have a good
relationship with your husbandor wife and then with your
(10:09):
colleagues?
It's very, very difficult,again, if you don't have the
things close to you in order.
So it's about being proactivehere, and just like we are
proactive these days about ourphysical health by exercising
and having a healthy diet and soon, and we're increasingly
looking after the mental health.
But I say that we need to lookafter social health as well, and
(10:30):
that means to repair and healbroken relationships, and I know
that's very painful, but we gotto make amends, we got to
apologize, we've got to own up,to decide the things that we
have perhaps damaged, and it ishere about cleaning up our side
of the street.
We cannot take responsibilityfor the other party, but clean
(10:50):
up your side of the street andhave all of that in order and
lead by example.
If you're an HR professional,then if we do this, then and our
teams do that then we're goingto work in a place where the
work culture is more warm, moreopen.
There'll be more engagedemployees, less sick days and
all of these things in the end,more returns for the owners of
(11:12):
the business.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Yeah, I think it's interesting.
You know as much of these typesof you know endeavors do.
There's usually a positiveripple effect in the world of
work, right?
So you know, as you do theself-work, that, yeah, like you
said, sometimes this stuff ishard and it sucks and it's
really really not something thatyou like, have a strong desire
(11:39):
to do.
But it could be really reallyimportant, right and necessary
for healing.
But that'll reverberate, right,like if you're in a better
place, if you are healthier,that will only make the
workplace healthier.
(12:00):
It's natural.
That's how it works.
I think it's really reallycritical that the reality is
that sometimes we don't have theskills to do this on our own
(12:26):
Right.
You know, sometimes we needhelp.
Do you recommend that peoplethink about getting, or maybe
where can people who are feelingdrawn to do something but don't
(12:49):
necessarily have the skills orthe toolkit to do it, where can
they go first?
Speaker 1 (12:53):
support it depends what kind of issues and what
kind of feelings or isolationand so on they have.
And when I went through mydifficult time and after I
resigned from my job, I alsofiled for divorce and that made
me even more isolated.
I was just not ready to bequestioned by anyone, so I
pushed everyone away from me andin that space also I started to
(13:17):
pick up addiction.
And that's very common as well.
When we are in there, we changeour good habits to bad habits.
So for me that meant a tradinggym membership for a bar stool
and basically with that myhealthy diet, fast food and
pizza, and I started to drinktoo much beer, I gained a lot of
weight and I became addicted.
So again, I had to own up tothat and I went to one of the
(13:39):
12-step programs and I gotsupport there by first being
honest about my issues, owningup to that, meeting like-minded
who were going through adifficult time and who had
alcohol problems before, andthat gave me hope and they
showed me the way.
These days there's so manycharities, so many social
organizations, so many helplines, hotlines that are full of
(14:02):
volunteers who are supporting inthis for everything from
alcohol to drugs, to sex toshopping, to social media
addiction there's people thereto help.
So, if we again have done theorders properly, if we know
where the issues are, help isthere and it doesn't have to
cost an arm and a leg.
There's a lot of volunteers.
The most is actually free.
If we know where the issues are, help is there and it doesn't
have to cost an arm and a leg.
There's a lot of volunteers,the most is actually free.
(14:22):
If we want some professionalhelp, then there's coaches,
there's mentors, of course, andit's all kind of mastermind
groups, peer groups andassociations where you can ask
people who perhaps have somemore year experience than you
and they can help you.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I think this goes back tothe loneliness thing too, right
, like you're not alone, rightLike there are a lot of people
that are, you know, strugglingwith this type of thing, and so
you know, kind of finding peoplethat have gone through similar
situations maybe are currentlygoing through it and are you
(15:00):
know, on a on a road to recoveryor support can be can be really
, you know, really reallyhelpful.
Um, I'm curious maybe to youknow understand a little bit
more about how you have, uh,thought about this topic as you
wrote the book.
You know you really you focusedon on five pathways to overcome
(15:25):
executive loneliness.
What are those five pathwaysand and why were those the focus
areas for you?
Speaker 1 (15:33):
yeah, and it's good timing to bring them in, because
we already covered the firstone.
And the first step is just whatwe talked about about taking
stock.
It's about that audit to lookat yourself and then so we can
cover now the second one, whichis actually once you've done
that audit.
It's about taking that list andthinking about who you can ask
for help.
(15:53):
So it's really taking action onthat.
So if you write it in aspreadsheet, you have one column
with issues.
In my case, it was I had toomuch weight, I was drinking too
much alcohol, there was somebroken relationships and I
needed help.
So I put all that down.
And then the second row, I putsome names of people who I could
(16:15):
ask for help, and then the nextstep then is to start asking
them and just ticking the boxesand going to see the friends
calling the hotline, so gettingthe help you need really.
And I say that we have to lookafter the body first the
physical health has to comefirst and the mental health, so
(16:35):
that we get the house in order.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Absolutely the mental health so that we get the house
in order.
Absolutely, um, as you werewriting this, I'm curious.
Um, my, my assumption is youprobably ran into to many other
people that were dealing with asimilar you know kind of a
similar situation.
Were there any any commonthemes to individuals that were
struggling with this that youobserved?
Speaker 1 (17:07):
I would say that the most common replies I had as I
started to write and talk aboutthis was just a big surprise.
There's so many times thatpeople have said I've been
waiting all my life for someoneto talking about this and I can,
for example, within 24 hours ofme going viral with this and
(17:28):
sharing my story, I was on TV,radio and in over 20 newspapers,
and in Singapore, where I spentmost of my time, the biggest
business newspaper there calledBusiness Times, they wrote a
four pages feature on my storyand the book and so on, because
they said we wanted to writethis kind of story for so many
(17:50):
years, but there was never, everanyone daring or willing to be
vulnerable and step forward.
Everyone was okay to share thestory, but anonymously.
We need a person.
So they had my picture there.
And's what was.
What's also what the publishersaid nick, you're sharing your
own story here in this, in thebook.
This is very unique, so that'swhy the, the publisher even
(18:12):
insisted that I'm on the, on theon the cover, because people
need to see that this isactually real people behind this
, and so so that was the mainpoint of the book was to break
the stigma, and I had to have mystory there.
So it was a difficult decision,but it's the best decision I've
done in my life to step forwardhere.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, yeah.
And again, you know a highlevel of vulnerability, right?
You know honesty.
I'm sure that was personallydifficult to open up that way.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yes, it was, but the reward is there.
And I want to say also, kyle,every time I have a chance to
share this and share my storyand just to admit to myself and
to others and to say to you andyour listeners today that as I
went through this, I had analcohol issue.
That was very, very hard for meto admit.
That sat really deep.
Now it's six years ago since Ihad my last drink and it's a bit
(19:08):
easier to say so, but foranyone who has any addiction, we
will do anything we can, and itdoesn't matter if it's that
we're workaholics, that we'reworking 14 hours a day, because
most of us would be in denial,and we'll do everything we can
to defend those things.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah, totally, you know, I think.
And first of all, you know,congratulations for six years.
I know that's no easy feat, butalcohol is one of those things
it's, you know, in many casesit's societally acceptable.
It's one of those things it's,you know, in many cases it's
(19:55):
societally acceptable.
It's also in the business world, super common, right, Like it's
, like it's hard, it's likeyou're walking away from a, you
know, a task.
That is certainly certainly achallenge.
I, I, I haven't drank for aboutsix months.
Um and uh, you know, for, uh,for, for for similar reasons,
mostly mental and physicalhealth.
You know it's it.
It wasn't helpful, right, butbut it's it, but it's.
It's easy to make that realism,to come to that realization.
(20:20):
It's a lot harder to actuallyexecute on, not right, that
point of you know kind ofburnout and isolation and
loneliness, and you talked aboutsome of the things you had to
(20:43):
overcome all the way to, youknow, ironman, right?
So how did you navigate thatjourney?
Once you did the audit, youwere honest with yourself and
you started to tap into yourresources that can help you come
out of it.
You know how did you navigatethrough the rest of that journey
.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Yeah.
So the model that I used to comeout of the loneliness and
getting myself healthy proved tobe a winner and I thought I can
apply this to everything inlife, anything I want to do, and
I did it then on the sport ofIronman, where I was completely
vulnerable and open and I signedup with swim coaches, run
(21:24):
coaches, cycling coaches,triathlon academies, getting the
social life and always askingquestions, asking the people
who'd been there before, gettingthe nutrition tips and
everything.
And most of these tips, again,are free.
Most people are happy to share.
If you want 10 minutes, theywill give you 10 minutes for
free with some of the top tips.
(21:44):
If you want an hour, you can.
You can get it at the rate.
So I just apply that to thesport of ironman and that took
me all the way to becoming toptwo percent world and I I just
qualify now for the worldchampionship in my age group in
the half Ironman distance, whereI will go to New Zealand in
December and compete.
So it just proves that it worksand I applied it to a few other
(22:09):
areas also of my life and itworks in every area.
That's awesome, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
I have done a half Ironman the best I can say is, I
finished after, but.
But.
But you know what?
Here's the thing, nick like.
So I did not do what you did,right, I tried to do it myself
and I did finish, but I didn'texcel, you know.
So, as I listened to you, it'slike, you know, a little bit of
(22:37):
a light bulb moment for me,where it's like I didn't focus
on the social aspect of it, Ididn't get coaches, I took, you
know, no-transcript as well as,obviously, the physical and
(23:19):
mental health aspect.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
And then I wanted to test thatalso in the public speaking
arena.
So I'd done presentations allmy life, I'd done some speaking
and so on.
But then I put a target asmyself I really, really want to
break through as a professionalspeaker.
So I did again this I made alist of all the top 30 speakers
in Asia and I reached out tothem and some were willing to
(23:43):
give me some mentor calls andchecking in with them.
I just asked them you know whathave you done?
What?
Were willing to give me somementor calls and checking in
with them.
I just asked them you know whathave you done?
What are the secrets, any tips?
And if you speak to 15, 20professional speakers who are
the best, you get a pretty longlist of things to do and as long
as you action some of them andat least one or two points of
everyone, you know things thatget moving really, really
quickly.
And a few of them got reallyinspired when they saw me going
(24:06):
and a few of them havevolunteered to be non-paid sort
of volunteers for me as theirmentors and I can call them
anytime to get free tips andthey're linking me up and giving
me keynotes all over the worldnow.
So I was fully booked sinceMarch, basically going around
the world.
I had to fly twice to Maldives,even to give speaks.
Maldives, yeah, you hear thatSure.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Had to fly twice to Maldives even to give speaks.
Maldives, oh yeah, you hearthat.
Sure Maldives, sure Maldives.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
If you want the Rebel HR podcast, a live podcast in
Maldives.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yeah, but you know, as evidenced by how hard it was
to get you, you know, connectedI, you know.
Again, I think that's that's.
You know you're tapping intothe power I, I.
Actually, to me, what I'mhearing is like you're tapping
into the power of your story andyour vulnerability and your and
your, your willingness to askfor help and like be be open and
(25:01):
honest with people like, hey,this is what I want to do, what,
what do you?
What tips do you have?
And, and it sounds like, forthe most part, it's been an
extremely positive experiencefor you.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yes, of course you get a couple of no's, but you
just keep going and there willbe enough people who are willing
to help you.
And then there's professionalspeaking associations I joined
and now, as they had theirmentoring program, I said now is
my chance to give back.
And I'm actually mentoring nineprofessional speakers now and I
group them up.
(25:33):
We have a session every monthwhere I'm helping them to take
them through the journey ofbecoming professional speakers
themselves.
So it's all about giving itback at the end of the day as
well.
And in the triathlon communityI'm also coaching and mentoring,
helping younger people also inthe sport, not with the
professional side.
Community, I'm also coachingand mentoring, helping younger
people also in the sport, notwith a professional side, but to
also find a profession outsidethe sport so they have a life
(25:53):
and an income outside.
So whatever also I've done andeverything that happened to me
the six years, I'm also givingback now and that gives me then
fulfillment as well yeah,absolutely yeah, I think it's.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
You know what's what's.
What's really interesting here,is it?
It's such a rewarding thing tolike make these connections.
Obviously you're addressing theloneliness concern there by
just by making the connections.
And then you know researchafter research shows like giving
back actually makes you happierthan receiving, right?
(26:30):
You know, actually, investingand and pouring into into others
can, can, can be, you know,medicine for the soul, right?
So, um, so good for you for, uh, for giving back.
I think one of the things it'sit easy for us to agree with
(26:52):
this stuff and I think I've hada couple maybe light bulb
moments as we've talked heretoday professionals that feel
duck, like like they understand,hey, I'm looking for, you know,
I understand I need to figureout this social, you know,
(27:13):
health thing.
I know I need to find somehelpers.
I know I need to be vulnerable,but I don't I, I don't know
that I'm comfortable doing that.
You know, like in the workplace, right, especially, I think a
lot of times, like our friendsare at work Most friends are
made at work in many cases butin like an HR position or an
executive position, you knowthat's not really possible
(27:35):
because you, you know, you knowwhat everybody makes.
You've got all theseconfidentiality requirements.
You don't want to have anawkward conversation with
somebody or reboot plan at theyou know family barbecue.
An awkward conversation withsomebody or reboot plan at the
family barbecue.
So for those of us that aremaybe struggling and don't feel
comfortable doing this in a worksetting, what advice would you
have for us to go out and buildmaybe more of a social network
(27:58):
outside of the workplace inorder to fulfill that need?
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Yeah, so I think professional connections and
outside the workplace, I believewe need them on a one-on-one
basis and perhaps internally inthe company they're giving you
someone perhaps in anotheroffice as a mentor, but that
you're not going to becompletely transparent and
vulnerable there.
So look for someone perhaps whois five, 10 years ahead of you
in the career ladder in anotherorganization, someone who might
(28:25):
have worked for and see if theycan have a mentoring
relationship with you on aone-on-one basis.
That could be one thing, butotherwise look out for
mastermind groups, peer groupsperhaps, and there are groups
also in the HR field.
Look out for HR organizations,professional organizations,
(28:45):
where you can join and perhapstake on some board roles there,
to be of service as well.
That's a good way to get toknow people.
And if none of this works, thenthink about what other HR
professionals you know in othercompanies which are not in
conflict with your own businessand set up your own mastermind
group.
It can be an informal groupwhere you log on for an hour a
(29:06):
week on Teams or Zoom, or maybeyou can meet in person.
If you have some in yourcommunity, just set up that.
You only need five, seven ofyou and let's meet up once a
week and discuss what's on yourmind and just say from the
upfront that this is aconfidential meeting.
We are here to support eachother and nothing is off the
chart.
Just share what's on your mind.
What will happen then is youwill listen to others and you
(29:28):
will say, oh, I'm also goingthrough that, I also have that
issue, and then you will getthat commonality and the
sympathy that we so much need ashuman beings.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Totally yeah, and I would echo that as an example.
I was in the grocery store afew days ago and I ran into one
of my friends and his wife hadrecently got into human
resources and we got into adiscussion about it.
I had assisted with interviewprep questions and things like
(29:57):
that, so I was really happy tohear that she got the role.
But his concern was like well,she's bringing all the stress
home and she's just dumping iton me and it's like I don't know
.
It's like I don't know, youknow, it's like I'm not an hr
professional and and and youknow he had this.
Look, he's like how can I helpher?
And you know my, my advice iswell, here, guess what?
There's this hr group, there'sthis local hr group.
(30:18):
She can actually have theseconversations with local hr
professionals that are dealingwith the exact same issue.
Right like, or or at least avery, very similar issue.
And and you know, there can besome, some level of support
there and like, yeah, but it'sthings like that, right Like,
kind of look out for each other.
You know, build these, buildthese communities of support.
And you know, and and I, Ireally think it's critical, um,
(30:42):
and certainly personally, youknow, my success has been at the
uh, you know, at the support ofmy mentor.
Personally, my success has beenat the support of my mentor.
Had I not had the mentors I had, I wouldn't be where I am today
, and so being open to thatreally, really cares most Sounds
great, yeah.
(31:04):
With that being said, nick, Iwant to thank you again for for
coming on and sharing your storyand and and um, and for writing
this book, and I think it's areally, really critical topic.
I appreciate you, you know,being brave enough to uh, to
tackle it and and and to shareyour story around it.
Um, we're going to shift gears.
We're going to go into therebel HR flash round.
Are you ready?
(31:24):
Yes, let's do it.
Rebel HR flash round Are youready?
Yes, let's do it.
All right, perfect.
Question number one where do weneed to rebel?
I think we need to rebel withourselves really challenge
ourselves to break out from ourday-to-day patterns.
You know, I think if there's atheme of this conversation today
(31:47):
, a lot of it has to do withbeing honest with yourself.
That's really where it startsand I think that's the root and
that we're not alone.
We're all in this together.
I think.
Two big takeaways and I thinkareas that actually in our space
are kind of rebelliousAbsolutely there's a rebel in
all of rebellious right,absolutely.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
There's a rebel in all of them.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Just bring it out, that's great Question number two
who should we be listening?
Speaker 1 (32:15):
to and you know what I'm going to say the same thing
we need to listen to ourselves.
However, I also want to saythat we need, perhaps a coach or
someone who can help you to askthe deep questions.
You break through the glassceiling and you get a bit deeper
in yourself sometimes.
We need to be challenged, andso look for someone if you have
a mentor, a coach, who can askyou the deep questions and then
(32:36):
listen to yourself and listen tothe answers and even ask
perhaps your coach or mentor,who had this conversation, if
you are allowed to record it, soyou can listen to yourself.
And just again back to thefirst question there rebel and
challenge yourself and listen toyour inner voice.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Absolutely yeah, I couldn't agree more and I think
you know, I think this islifelong work, right, it takes
work every single day to kind offocus on these aspects of your
own personal health and yourpersonal journey.
And so you know, for any of youthat are out there and agree
and are struggling, you knowthere's a lot of us in the thing
(33:14):
both.
So just know the journey andthat we're all in it together,
all right.
Last question how can ourlisteners connect with you and
how can they get their hands onthe book?
Executive Loneliness.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Yeah, they can go to Amazon and the book is there
both as a Kindle and also as anAudible book and it's called
Executive Loneliness.
Otherwise, I'm on LinkedIn aswell.
They can look up Nick Johnson.
That's N-I-C-K-J-O-N-S-S-O-N.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Absolutely.
We will have that informationin the show notes.
Feel free to pop open thepodcast player.
Click on in the book again isExecutive Loneliness the Five
Pathways to Overcoming Isolation, stress, anxiety and Depression
in the Modern Business World.
Nick, thank you again forjoining us.
Just a really, really greatconversation on a critical topic
(34:05):
, thank you.
Thank you very much, kai.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast.
Big thank you to our guests.
Follow us on Facebook at RebelHR podcast, Twitter at Rebel HR
guy, or see our website atrebelhumanresourcescom.
The views and opinionsexpressed by rebel hr podcast
are those of the authors and donot necessarily reflect the
official policy or position ofany of the organizations that we
(34:33):
represent.
No animals were harmed duringthe filming of this podcast baby
.
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