March 5, 2025 • 38 mins
Discover how to redefine success and well-being in high-pressure careers with insights from Dr. Janna Koretz, a visionary clinical psychologist and founder of a transformative firm in Boston. Dr. Koretz is on a mission to challenge the norms of therapy, making mental health care both accessible and relevant for professionals grappling with burnout, anxiety, and challenging relationships. By sharing her personal journey and professional insights, she highlights the importance of tailored support and breaks the stigma surrounding therapy in demanding careers like human resources.
We explore the often-overlooked concept of career identity and balance, emphasizing the futility of chasing the elusive perfect work-life balance. Instead, we delve into the power of understanding personal values and priorities. Our conversation encourages listeners to reflect on what truly matters beyond their professional identities, offering practical advice on reassessing career paths and integrating personal passions into daily life. This episode is a call to action for those feeling trapped in the rat race, offering a fresh perspective on creating a more fulfilling life.
In a world where leadership roles often require balancing empathy with corporate responsibilities, Dr. Koretz's insights are invaluable. We discuss the role of HR professionals in fostering supportive company cultures that prioritize mental health and encourage civil discourse. By sharing stories and offering practical tools, we aim to inspire change in workplace environments, making them more conducive to mental well-being. Join us for this enlightening episode, packed with actionable advice and thought-provoking discussions on aligning personal values with professional roles.
ABOUT DR. JANNA KORETZ
Dr. Koretz is the founder of Azimuth, a therapy practice specializing in the mental health challenges of individuals in high-pressure careers. She has spent over a decade helping her clients face and overcome their mental health issues by developing a unique understanding of industry-specific nuances in fields like law, consulting, finance, and technology.
Connect with Dr. Janna Koretz:
Website: https://azimuthpsych.com/
Dr. Koretz LinkedIn
Rebel HR is a podcast for HR professionals and leaders of people who are ready to make some disruption in the world of work. Please connect to continue the conversation!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all
things innovation in thepeople's space.
I'm Kyle Rode.
Let's start the show.
Welcome back Rebel HR communityWith us.
Today we have an amazing guest.
So excited to jump into thecontent, we have Dr Jana Koretz.
She is a clinical psychologistand founder of a firm in Boston
(00:27):
who helps support people who arein high pressure careers, and
certainly that includes many HRprofessionals.
So, jana, thank you so much forjoining us today.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah, thank you for having me, I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Really excited as well.
This is one of those situationswhere, before I hit record, we
had a wonderful 10 to 15-minuteconversation and I went oh shoot
, I should have been recording.
We're going to rehash maybe alittle bit.
I apologize.
I want to start off with aquestion that I'm always curious
when I talk to a founder or anentrepreneur what motivated you
(01:05):
to found a firm that focuses onsupporting individuals in
high-pressure careers?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Sure, Well, I guess there's sort of two parts to it.
First, when I came out of mypostdoc, I got a job.
At the time there were a lot ofdifferent smaller group
practices in Boston, which iswhere we are, and so I had known
people working on a lot ofdifferent ones.
I had interviewed at some andthat was going to be my first
job and the more I found outabout all these different places
(01:34):
, the less I wanted to workthere, because it felt very much
like a, like you were just sortof a cog in a machine, which I
found interesting from, you know, therapy practice perspective,
but you know it's where peoplewould go.
They would just crush you with acaseload that was so high there
was no space to do any kind ofsupervision or you know
(01:56):
thoughtful development, and likeyou were just locked in this
office all day, even thoughthere were people around you.
You see, your people, they werereally careful with your
productivity and you left andthen, the longer you were there,
there weren't opportunities forleadership, there weren't
opportunities for making moremoney over time, like there was
no opportunity for innovation ordoing things differently.
(02:17):
It was just like this is theway it's done, this is what
we're doing, and some of them,even at the time, were doing a
lot of things that were, in myopinion, quite sketchy in
regards to, like, insurance andinsurance billing.
So basically figured, well, ifit doesn't exist, maybe we
should make it.
And so once, that's how thatbegan, that's how I started
(02:40):
Asbeth with the idea of of, froma clinician perspective, making
it an enjoyable place to work,making it a place where people
like to stay, making it a placewhere people were able to do,
more specifically, the kinds ofwork they want to do more, you
know, a place where peopleweren't overworked so they could
actually pay attention to theclients that they have, and so
forth.
And so that's how azimuth began.
(03:02):
And then, probably a couple ofyears into our existence, you
know, in Boston there are a lotof people in high pressure
careers, and what we werenoticing is that was pretty much
a lot of the reason why peoplewere coming in the first place,
and that was a lot of work wewere doing was about, kind of
the nuances of those differentprofessions, and at some point I
(03:24):
just figured we should really,this is what we're doing, this
is what we love, this is who'scoming.
Like, we should just do this,this should just be let's focus
in on this.
And so a group of people thatdon't often get identified as
needing services, which I thinkis interesting.
And so it was a way in whichalso to bring people into
therapy who might not identifywith more medical model of you
(03:46):
know, I definitely have thisissue and I need this kind of
therapy to help me.
You know, because anyone can usetherapy, you don't need a
diagnosis, you don't need any ofthose things, but the model is
so medical, which is a wholedifferent story that I think a
lot of people, you know that'spart of the stigma and also part
of why people like hesitate,because they don't realize that,
(04:08):
how useful it can be, no matterwhat, and so this was also a
way to allow people tounderstand that and to come in
in a way that felt morecomfortable to them and more in
line with actually what wasgoing on for them.
But that was often and is oftenright about a lot of different
things, which is much more, Iwould say, on the clinical side,
about, like communication orrelationship issues, anxiety,
(04:28):
mood disorders, burnout, likethere's all this stuff going on
in the bottom because people arereally complicated trauma.
And so then you know you'rekind of working on both levels.
So we know you know what ittakes to make partner at a firm.
We know you know, like weunderstand, that working less is
not really a choice for youright now.
So let's work within thatCreative around solutions
(04:53):
because a lot, you know a lot ofthe advice that people get or
have been working on intherapists prior are things that
people know about.
Like, I know I'm supposed tosleep more, but that is not
something that I am able to doat this time in my life.
So, with that in consideration,what are the other more clever
and smaller and more innovativethings that I can do to help
(05:14):
myself within the context ofthis work environment, and what
other things underlying that arecontributing to my work
difficulties?
And so we're kind of working inthat broader spectrum.
So that's sort of the originstory of how we got to where we
are today.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
I love it.
I think it's, you know it's.
I think, first of all, from mystandpoint and to get you know,
maybe maybe a little personalhere like I've, I've gone to
therapy for a few years nowthere was a time where I just
didn't.
It wasn't that I didn't feellike I needed it, I just didn't
because it was medical.
It's like no, I don't haveclinical depression, I don't
(05:53):
need to go to therapy.
And then went through a divorceand I'm like, oh shit, Maybe I
need some help, Because much ofwhat predicated that divorce it
wasn't the divorce itself, itwas the years and years of kind
of withdrawing from personalrelationships, being overwhelmed
(06:14):
with work.
You know there's some childhoodtraumas and things like that
that were playing into the needto overachieve, you know, and
all of this stuff you unpack intherapy and you can process and
work through it, but we don'tnecessarily talk about it very
openly.
But the first therapist that Iwent to was like you need to
work less, You're just workingtoo much.
You need to take some time off,you need to not.
(06:36):
And it's like you know youdon't get it, Like I have to do
this, Like this is like this ispart of me providing for my
family.
This is part of like this isjust the job I of me.
Providing for my family.
This is part of like this isjust the job I have.
This is the skills that I have.
You know, I can't just go, andeven if I go to on a retreat or
something like that, it it ain'tgood right like it's and and
(07:00):
you know it's it I had to find Iended up finding a practitioner
.
That's been wonderful and I'vehad significant progress and
went through different means andso I appreciate the reflection
that, hey, this is not a cookiecutter for everybody and
certainly I think there's peoplein high-pressure careers that
(07:23):
for whatever reason reason, justcan't and and I think that
awareness and acceptance, thenyou can come up with ideas and
solutions that that can workwithin the paradigm of what that
person's dealing with.
I love that approach.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, yeah, and I think the goal is not to like
eradicate all stress.
You know either, which I thinkis I mean I would love that for
everyone.
However, you know that's, Ithink people I think you know
either, which I think is I meanI would love that for everyone.
However, you know that's, Ithink people I think you know
we're like people try to get tothis work life balance right.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Whatever that means, yeah, but that's not the human
experience, right Like not.
We're supposed to face stressin our lives.
That's what life is sometimes.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yes, that's how you learn, that's how you gain
perspective, it's how you learnto take risk, like it's all
these things.
And so I think when you keepthat in mind and you accept that
work-life balance should notactually be the goal because
it's impossible, then you cancome up with a more effective
solution set, because you're notaiming for something that is
(08:23):
impossible and might notactually be better for anyone
ever.
Anyway, um, and I think thatthat's kind of new, uh, you know
, or more unique to like, sortof how we perceive, you know,
because we want people to get towhere they want to figure out
what's important, get to wherethey need to be.
If it's not where they are, notnecessarily rush into that or
(08:46):
make those changes immediatelyfor a lot of reasons.
But logistics, like youmentioned, we can't all just
quit our jobs and move to theBahamas and start an ice cream
shop.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
That sounds lovely, that sounds great.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
The roadmap to do that is important, which also
can build hope and relationshipsand give space for other things
that are really important, youknow, for mental health, and
that's kind of, I think, themost effective way to do it.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
I love that and I think you know this is one of
the things that I know you do alot of work in.
I think a lot of times we getinto these careers and many
times certainly in my sector youkind of fall into it.
You happen like there's avacancy, you're good with people
, and they're like, hey, you doHR, or you're an accountant and
(09:42):
you're doing payroll.
And then they're like, hey, youdo HR, or you're an accountant
and you're doing payroll.
And then they're like, hey, youdo HR as well.
That's such a common story.
And then you look back at 10,15, 20 years later and you're
like, how did I get here.
Who am I, what are my values,what do I actually care about
and how do I make sure I'm notmiserable in my career for the
(10:04):
rest of my life?
And then and then beyond mycareer and I think certainly
I've gone through that, Iexperienced that a few years ago
where you know, you kind ofhave this, this, this
existential crisis of what's myidentity Like, what am I without
work and what do I actuallyvalue.
So for those of us that arekind of having that point of
(10:25):
reflection or struggling withthat on a personal level, what
advice would you have for thoseindividuals and how can we start
to think about getting out ofthis rat race?
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Yeah, and I think what you're talking about is
what we call career enmeshment,when your whole identity kind of
becomes wrapped up in your jobbecause, partly because you've
spent so much time there and sooften actually to your point,
what happens this is sort ofwhat brings people in is they
lose their job, their company isacquired, they get laid off and
(11:04):
they do have this existentialmoment because they don't have
what's so core to them and theyhaven't touched any of the other
baskets you know, so to speak.
So their eggs are in one basket.
They don't know what basketsare there.
Are there any baskets you know?
Like they just don't knowwhat's what, who they are
anymore, and it is anexistential problem and it's
(11:24):
really scary.
It's really really scary.
And also to think back, have Ispent my whole life doing
something that's important to me?
What am I doing?
What am I doing here?
It's a really big question andin general, I think one solution
for that or to start workingaway from that, is also
something that I think is goodfor everyone, which is kind of
(11:47):
trying to discover what youractual values are, because most
people have not had theopportunity or really known that
they should think about theirvalues.
They kind of think that theyknow what they are or they're
assumed about those around themor they've ignored them for a
really long time for childhoodtrauma reasons or financial
reasons or whatever.
(12:08):
And then there is a place, likewhere people sort of arrive, so
to speak, and they've checked alot of boxes, they've made it,
and they're so miserable becausewhatever they're doing has
nothing to do with that, whatthey actually want to be doing,
because there's nothing to dowhat's important to them, um, or
like, because there's nothingto do with what's important to
them, or maybe there's a slightoverlap, right, but for the most
(12:28):
part you're spending what like8, 10, 12, 15 hours a day doing
something that really is not inline with your values or is sort
of counter to your values, andso you know, thinking about your
values is a big task, and Ithink a lot of times people
(12:49):
think it's pretty simple, like,oh well, I know that, like,
money is important to me andfamily is important to me.
So these are my values, andthat's kind of on a surface
level.
Sure, that could be, that couldbe true.
But what is it about family,like?
What is it about the money?
Is it the power, is it thefreedom?
Is it the security?
You know there's like morequestions and really getting
(13:10):
into the nitty gritty, which isa task and it takes a long time,
and people don't like thateither, because you know we're
in an era of quick fixes and Ithink that's in some ways also
people's reservation abouttherapy in general is there is
no time limit.
It could take forever, and thatseems daunting and unpleasant
and it can be, but that doesn'tmean it's not worth doing.
And so you know, we actuallyjust came out last week with an
(13:34):
app for this because I feelpretty strongly about it where
it's an app that helps you dovalues-based journaling.
So you take a quiz that we havethat pops up with your top
three values and then you kindof write down throughout the day
and you can rate how inalignment you were with those
values or not.
And then we have some promptpacks which are basically, if
(13:57):
people aren't sure what to write, you can click in stuff that I
might say to people like one ofmy clients or something like
that, to help people.
Because I mean personally, tobe honest with you, I'm not like
a journaling person by natureand I have forced myself to do
so for a variety of reasons, butsometimes when I open up like a
page or whatever it's on myphone, I'm just what.
(14:20):
I don't even know what happenedtoday.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
You know, like I don't know what I'm supposed to
write about.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
And so that's why we put in the prompts, because I
personally sometimes get alittle stuck in that.
But anyway so yeah, yeah, it'slike I don't know.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
I'm just trying to make it to dinner time.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Yeah, so you know, I think really getting into that,
because then and then whatpeople find is that they have
values that they didn't knowthat they had, because which
also, values can change overtime, because you know, life
happens and you gain perspective, and then they're like, oh God,
I this is so not in alignmentwith what I'm doing, with my
time, and there's this panic andlike I should quit right now,
(14:59):
but I can't quit.
But really, what the next stepis is to make a plan, you know,
make, you know like a verystepwise fashion, because a lot
of things do keep people intheir jobs, such as finances
Right, finances right.
And if you have a kid who'sfinishing college and you need
to pay for that, then mayberight now is not the time to
(15:22):
make that switch, but maybe inthree years you'd be more able
to make that choice.
And so what does that look like?
And then, how do you manage,between now and then, to build
your identity, to figure out whoyou are, to figure out what's
important to you and to fillthose buckets a little bit,
because even that is important.
I think people love a grandgesture, right?
They love to change thingsimmensely and do something
different.
But really it doesn'tnecessarily take that large
(15:44):
scale change to feel better,especially if the goal is not to
eradicate all of your negativefeelings.
You can still hate work alittle bit but then feel so
motivated by these things thatyou're doing outside, even if
they're like for bits and piecesof time.
You know like, for example, wehad somebody once who it was
really important to them to likehelp the underserved, and this
(16:04):
person was a corporate lawyer atthe time and so and could not
quit their job.
And so he decided to startteaching English as a second
language on the weekends, justfor a couple of hours online,
because that brought him a lotof joy and fulfillment in that
and it was something that didn'ttake up too much time and it
(16:25):
was manageable and it reallyhelped sort of fuel him and
because he had these littlepockets of joy not that there
wasn't joy before, but nowthere's more joy.
Pockets of joy Not that therewasn't joy before, but now
there's more joy and it feelsyou can feel lighter and you
know kind of start to get out ofthe hole and then you have a
plan for when it ends.
You know.
If you know, you only have todo something for a certain
(16:45):
period of time, even if thatperiod of time is longer, you
know there's an endpoint and youknow where you're going and
you're excited about it.
So that feels a lot differentthan just being like stuck in a
hole at work.
You know.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I can, like you know, you could
probably unpack this.
I'm sure you've got your, your,your thoughts on this.
But, like, great example, on apersonal level, I used to want
to be a musician, you know, andnow I'm in a human resource.
I'm now I'm a human resourcesofficer, you know, and it's, and
it's it's so far away from likewhere I started as a, as a
(17:19):
child, um, but that's my, that'smy passion, and but it's it's
interesting, cause I think whatyou know.
I love that you said you canhate your job a little bit,
because the reality is it, and Iwould say, like anybody that's
in human resources or leader ofpeople, you should hate your job
a little bit because you haveto fire people, right, like
(17:41):
there are aspects of your jobthat are absolutely like they
should make you hate what you'redoing in that moment, and if
you don't, then there's aproblem.
Right, you should hateterminating people.
Like that should be the worstthing.
Like you should wake updreading that.
And if you don't, right, youshould hate terminating people.
That should be the worst thing.
You should wake up dreadingthat, and if you don't, you've
lost some of your humanity.
That's my perspective.
(18:04):
But because of that over theyears I truly like I'm a good
corporate soldier.
I can do that stuff right Forwhatever reason.
I can flip a switch and beextremely effective at being
logical and laser focused oncorporate objectives.
But that fights against thesoul of who I am.
(18:27):
The soul of who I am is kind ofa creative connector that uses
music to do that, and so acouple years ago I kind of got
reengaged in that part of mybrain and, while I am certainly
not going to quit my corporategig to go play music, I have
(18:47):
been able to incorporate musicinto my life and playing a show
tonight, just a one-man show,local, great little local place.
I'm recording some music, I'mwriting songs again, you know,
and.
But what's been interesting is,as I've started to reconnect to
that point, the rest of my lifehas been more enjoyable, right.
(19:10):
So, even though I still hateaspects of my job and my team
can quote me on that if they'relistening to this I hate my job
sometimes, sorry, but I feellike it's made me a more
relatable and a better leaderbecause of that.
So I do think there's so muchinherent truth in that but it's
(19:32):
difficult for people to dowithout guidance.
Truth than that, but it'sdifficult for people to do
without guidance, right?
So maybe stepping back and likeas a leader of people and a
corporate leader, how can wehelp others who are maybe
struggling with this?
And certainly we're on thefront lines of seeing workplace
(19:54):
stress A lot of times.
We're the people that peoplecome to when they are near
burnout or breakdown oroverwhelmed.
How can we help them kind ofunderstand some of these
principles and kind of get outof this stuck feeling?
Speaker 2 (20:12):
It's a great question .
I think the first advice islistening, which I know you guys
do a lot of anyway.
But you know people will say ifyou ask them right what's wrong
, they might give you an answer.
But if you ask them a littlebit more and get a little
further into it, you realizeit's about something else most
of the time and that somethingelse is actually the root of the
(20:35):
problem.
And so solving, you know,really inquiring in a way that's
helpful, so that you're notputting a Band-Aid on something,
instead you're actually tryingto heal what's causing the
problem, is a great way to go.
I mean, the thing about that isit does take a lot of time and
you have to have relationshipswith people.
They can't be afraid of HR, youknow, or you know you have to
(20:57):
kind of put them at ease and letthem have a space where they
can say what they need to say,which can sometimes be about
other people at work or theirboss or CEO or whatever, but
oftentimes it's not even aboutthat.
So I think, really listening andasking a lot of questions, and
then people like to be heardanyway and sometimes that's
(21:18):
enough to just kind of getthrough the day.
It's just to have someone say,hey, you look pretty miserable,
like are you all right?
Because I don't think peopleask that question very often and
even when I was in grad schoolI went through a period of time
where I was really strugglingwith a lot of stuff.
There's a period of time whereI was really struggling with a
lot of stuff.
There's a lot of things goingon in my personal life.
(21:39):
I was in an internship.
That was really hard.
There was all these thingsProbably a couple months into
that.
Another thing I mean obviouslywe're all therapists, but my
grad student was like, are youall right?
And I was like I am not allright.
Thank you for asking me, and Ijust kind of also prompted me to
do a little moreself-reflection of how to help
myself and what needs to happennext.
(21:59):
So I think people like to beseen and heard and that's a
really good first step and Ithink also allowing them or
creating and this is hardbecause it's also a company
culture issue but creating aspace where it's like OK to take
a mental health day.
And I think that that's notabout saying it, because I think
(22:20):
and we say all sorts of stuffyou know and people, but they
need to be able to believe thatthat's a safe thing to do, and
the way that that happens isthrough, you know, demonstration
from leadership and you knowleading by relationship and all
sorts of other things that arebigger than what you're asking,
but, you know, allowing them toknow that everyone's a person.
We all have so much going on inour personal lives and work on
(22:42):
top of that.
We work so hard.
There's so much here.
You know it's a lot to carry.
It's just as a person.
And then you add on the otherkinds of struggles, like trauma
or, you know, difficult personat work or not making a
promotion or something it's justlike a lot.
Or not making a promotion orsomething, it's just like a lot.
So I think just listening,creating a safe space and then
teaching people about the thingsthat we're talking about is
(23:05):
really helpful, because a lot ofpeople don't know about any of
it and that's really eye-openingfor them when they come to us.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Yeah, I think there's so much there that we could
take away.
But in my, my call to action,hr people is like you can't just
say it because because there'sa lot, there's a lot out there
right now where it's like, youknow, mental mental health is
important and there's all.
You know, we support ouremployees with their mental
(23:40):
health journeys, but it's onething to say that and it's
another thing to not allowsomebody to use PTL.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Right.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Right, and that's where I get really kind of
pretty passionate about.
You know our role within ourorganizations and that is you
own this stuff.
If you say something and youhave a policy that directly
contradicts that statement, thenyou have failed as an HR
professional.
Great example we had acorporate management meeting and
(24:13):
the theme of the managementmeeting was psychological safety
.
It was very intentional andthere's a ton of research out
there amy edmondson is kind ofthe leader in the research and
that's what.
That was the content that we,we, we shared and reflected
around as a leadership team.
But basically it says likepsychologically safe teams win.
Right, it's as simple as that.
(24:35):
But from an hr, you can't justsay that we want psychological
safety and then make people feelthreatened at work or feel like
if they say the wrong thing,they're going to be on a hit
list and fired the next week.
And so it was funny.
(24:55):
We had a.
Then we had a dine-around andwe asked everybody to actually
write down on, like anonymously,on cards, like real bold
lessons for leadership, and itwas like people were afraid to
write it down.
And so in my mind I'm like,well, you know what We've got
(25:18):
work to do, and so we, we, youknow we took the that feedback
and we we kind of expanded it,but that's it's like.
It's stuff like that.
You like, you have to be honestwith yourself Like, are we just
saying it or are we actuallydoing something about it?
One of the aspects that wetouched on this early and we
could spend like an entire daytalking about this.
(25:39):
You talked about psychology andmental health being very, very
kind of clinical and medicallybased.
Right, and I think, as much aswe've tried to eliminate the
stigma, there is still one outthere.
There is still one out thereand certainly in the workplace
there's a stigma around peoplethat need to use an employee
(26:00):
assistance program or peoplethat need to take a mental
health day, and there's stillsome trepidation out people as
(26:23):
we do benefits and things likethat.
How can we make sure that weare preventing a stigma from
occurring or giving people acomfortability saying hey, no, I
might not have clinicaldepression, but I am near, near
workplace burnout or I I feellike I need a, I need some help.
(26:45):
How can we help our employeeswork through some of these
things in a way that's notcausing stimulus?
Speaker 2 (26:51):
well, I think even just explaining that is a great
first step.
You know, like I think peopledon't realize that therapy can
be used all the time, so youdon't necessarily have to have x
, y and z.
And I think part of the stigmatoo is like sometimes, is you
know people's own stuff?
(27:11):
They're not ready to navigatethat yet, but they see people
around them and so it's almostlike a defense you know against
like their own stuff.
That might be a lot of likeputting out that stigma or, um,
something like that.
I'll just leave it at that.
But um, so I think you know,just telling people, you know
(27:32):
you can go to, I mean, peoplehave coaches throughout their
whole life for everything right,and you're a kid, like
basketball, you've got SATtutors you have.
You know, like you have inresidency, you've got fellows
telling you what to do.
Like you know, people are notafraid of executive coaches.
They're not afraid of regularcoaches which, by the way, I
mean I think there's some greatcoaches out there, but there's
no regulation for coaching.
(27:53):
So also so like you could spendall this money on somebody who
really doesn't have theexperience to help you.
And people aren't afraid ofthat, but they're afraid of of
like other things, and they'reafraid of therapy because they
don't want to know sometimeswhat is quote unquote wrong with
them.
But really that's not what thetopic is a lot of the time.
It's about how to manage, it'sabout how to reach your goals,
(28:16):
it's about self-improvement,it's about quality of life, you
know, and sometimes that has todo with clinical issues, um and
but sometimes it doesn't, orsometimes it does, but you're
not ready to do that, so youdon't do that and you do other
things instead.
Um, you know, it is self-guidedin that way.
There's no, you can't atherapist, can't really you talk
(28:40):
about anything.
So I think just keeping that inmind and sharing that with
employees is helpful To extentpeople are comfortable.
I think, sharing personalexperiences or people you know
who've been to therapy, or youknow taking a mental health day,
or you know, oh, you should dothat because I did it, like six
weeks ago, because this thinghappened.
You know anything that'sappropriate and it depends also
(29:04):
again on the workplace culture,how big your company is, you
know what kind of managementstyle, you know all of that.
But to not just say it but togive an example, you know, like
this happens, like somebody elsedid this the other day.
Don't, we're not gonna tell youwho it is, but you know, because
psychologically safe teams dowin, because they are productive
, they're focused, they feelcared for, they feel heard, they
(29:25):
feel seen, they're efficient.
You're not paying for constantturnover.
You know hiring and firing andall this, you know it's like it
is the way to really succeed andI think a lot of that has to be
top down and culture based,which is sort of a separate
question or topic rather.
But I think the more that wecan just alert people to the
(29:47):
helpfulness and that otherpeople are actually doing this,
you know, is good, becausepeople will say, like they don't
need a mental health day aftertheir parent died.
I'm like you have to be out ofthis office for weeks.
I don't understand.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
I know it's wild, I think it's interesting.
Yeah, I totally agree, I don'tknow it's interesting as a
society that, like we, you knowwe celebrate people like
foregoing personal, you knowpersonal needs and you know, for
(30:26):
the sake of profitability Imean it's definitely a societal
construct.
You know, I don't think you canblame, you can't blame any
single corporation for it ornecessarily any single leader
for it.
I think you know we kind ofcelebrate that right.
Those are our heroes.
But I do think we're seeing alittle bit of a sea change here
(30:49):
where corporations are realizingthat, you know they do have to
kind of support the whole human.
You can't I think COVID taughtus that right that you can't
just keep operating business asusual when people are going
through these, these traumaticevents or tragic events or or
just need need some frickingtime to like catch their breath.
(31:11):
And you know I I think, likefrom my statement, to the extent
that this helps anybody.
Like I see a therapist usuallyevery other week, but at least
once a month and sometimes it'sjust unpacking the month and
it's literally just withprivilege.
So it is truly a safe space.
(31:32):
I can just talk about all myconcerns and hopes and fears and
dreams and dreams that aren'tcoming true or whatever, and
sometimes it gets really intenseand challenging and sometimes
it's kind of surfacy and I feellike I just kind of just
unpacked.
For me it's like going to thegym.
It's like sometimes you justgot to work it out and then I'm
(31:53):
better afterwards and I get paidto think.
So I got to make sure that mybrain is operating at as close
to 100% capacity as possible andthat's how I think about it and
I think you know I'm not sayingthat's the right way to think
about it, but I think sharingthat we go to therapy is maybe
(32:13):
the first step, just like hey,it's okay, right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
I love that perspective and I'll also share.
You know, I mean I've been intherapy since I was like 25.
I'm not going to tell you howold I am, but that was a really
long time ago Mostly with thesame person actually, and she's
out on leave now since probablyDecember sometime, and I think
she's February, march.
(32:37):
We're resuming.
But I like feel it in a waythat was almost surprising to me
, even though I know all of thisinformation where, like, I feel
like I have I've bottled up allthese things that are happening
and some are really hard andserious and about other stuff
and some are not, but I'm like Idon't have a space to kind of
like talk about any of this andI don't like it and it is not
(33:00):
making me a better person, it'smaking things harder for me and
a less effective person at work,at home and all that.
And even you know I'll alsoshare.
Like a while ago I had, I hadsome like very traumatic events
happen and I know some abouttrauma because I'm a therapist
and so it was just reallyinteresting because I know some
about trauma because I'm atherapist and so it was just
really interesting because Iknow all of these things that
(33:21):
happen to people right, likeflashbacks and cognitive changes
and all this, and as it'shappening to me, I was almost
like surprised by it that Icouldn't just like navigate that
by myself, because I knew whatit was.
Not to say, I hadn't experiencedtrauma before, but not in this
way.
And you know, even I was like,well, I off, I go to therapy
(33:43):
twice a week now because this islike I'm stuck in this, even
though I can see it happening tome, I know what it is.
It's like I can't help myself.
And so I think, even when youdo have a lot of information, or
you know about anxiety oryou've read about it and you
know about the hierarchy ofexposure or whatever doing it
and implementing, it isimpossible to do on your own, um
(34:04):
, even if you know about it.
So I think that's also somethingto keep in mind too, is like
you can read all you want aboutit, but it's really hard to do
absolutely so.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Uh with that, I think , um, you know that's a kind of
a great but you know a greatplace to uh, to shift gears and
and we're coming to the end ofour time together.
But, like I said before, we hitrecord.
I'm like we always get intothese conversations and then
like, like we're just gettingwarmed up and then we have to
end, you know, the like 30minute podcast recording.
So, um with that, I want towant to shift gears and um, to
(34:39):
shift gears and I want to ask acouple questions on the Rebel HR
flash round.
Are you ready?
Speaker 2 (34:45):
All right, let's hear it.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Okay, Question number one where do we need to rebel?
Speaker 2 (34:52):
We were talking about this before.
I think we need to have a pushfor civil discourse in every
facet of our lives.
I mean, how can we learn?
We need to learn from eachother, and that's how we, you
know, that's how doctors learnto be doctors they learn from
each other.
And so I think we're so afraidof people that are different.
(35:13):
Now, I think, really embracingthat and asking questions like
why did you do that, like whatis you do that?
What is important to you,without the judgment and
accusatory language, I think isreally important.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Can I make a comment?
This is kind of like a randomtangent on that, but I just
learned that there's this TikTokchallenge called the no
Judgment Challenge and I washearing this from my 11-year-old
and she's like yeah, we did theno Judgment challenge.
And I was hearing this from my11 year old and she's like, yeah
, we did the no, the no judgmentchallenge.
And you say like you say likethree things that could be
judged or should be judged, Um,and the challenge is for someone
(35:50):
to just sit there and listenand not judge.
You Like that's the challengeand I'm like that's kind of a
great for you.
Like you hear about thesestupid dance challenges and
stuff.
You're like you know what Ilike, that challenge, but it was
stuff like I used yourtoothbrush without telling you,
you know and stuff like that.
But you know, on a more seriouslevel, I do think it's like
we've forgotten to just becurious about each other and
(36:11):
nonjudgmental.
You know, like the Ted Lassoquote, you know, be curious, not
judgmental.
I.
And you know, like the TedLasso quote, you know, be
curious, not judgmental.
I love that and I hope that weget to a point where that's not
rebellion, right.
You know, like, let's not gothere.
Last question for you You'vebeen a lovely guest and really
(36:36):
appreciate you sharing yourknowledge and, most importantly,
sharing your time.
How can our listeners connectwith you?
How can they learn more?
And you mentioned an app,really appreciate you sharing
your knowledge and, mostimportantly, sharing your time.
How can our listeners connectwith you?
How can they learn more?
Speaker 2 (36:48):
And you mentioned an app.
How can we get our hands on theapp and do more of what you're
recommending here?
Yeah, so everything that wehave is on our website.
So it's azmuthpsychcom,a-z-i-m-u-t-h psychcom, and that
has all the stuff we do in ourpractice.
It has the values questionnairewith a link to the app, which
I'll talk about in a second, andalso some free tools that we
(37:11):
have.
So we have a burnout calculatoron there, we have a values
navigator on there, we have acareer enmeshment test.
There's also everything that'sbeen in the media.
That's all linked there too.
So that's like our main place.
The app link is there.
It's also on the app store.
It's clearly values journalingand it also has its own website.
(37:32):
If that's easier, it's justcalled clearlyhqcom.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
It's just called clearlyhqcom Awesome.
I appreciate the practicaltools and the help and really
appreciate the focus, really,really helpful and in the really
important aspect for all of uscertainly the listeners of this
podcast to to support.
So thank you, jana, for yourtime.
You've been a lovely guest andhave a great rest of your day.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Thanks, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
All right, that does it for the rebel HR podcast.
Big thank you to our guests.
That does it for the Rebel HRpodcast.
Big thank you to our guests.
Follow us on Facebook at RebelHR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR
guy, or see our website atrebelhumanresourcescom.
The views and opinionsexpressed by Rebel HR podcast
are those of the authors and donot necessarily reflect the
official policy or position ofany of the organizations that we
(38:36):
represent.
No animals were harmed duringthe filming of this podcast.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Baby.
This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all
things innovation in thepeople's space.
I'm Kyle Rode.
Let's start the show.
Welcome back Rebel HR communityWith us.
Today we have an amazing guest.
So excited to jump into thecontent, we have Dr Jana Koretz.
She is a clinical psychologistand founder of a firm in Boston
(00:27):
who helps support people who arein high pressure careers, and
certainly that includes many HRprofessionals.
So, jana, thank you so much forjoining us today.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah, thank you for having me, I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Really excited as well.
This is one of those situationswhere, before I hit record, we
had a wonderful 10 to 15-minuteconversation and I went oh shoot
, I should have been recording.
We're going to rehash maybe alittle bit.
I apologize.
I want to start off with aquestion that I'm always curious
when I talk to a founder or anentrepreneur what motivated you
(01:05):
to found a firm that focuses onsupporting individuals in
high-pressure careers?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Sure, Well, I guess there's sort of two parts to it.
First, when I came out of mypostdoc, I got a job.
At the time there were a lot ofdifferent smaller group
practices in Boston, which iswhere we are, and so I had known
people working on a lot ofdifferent ones.
I had interviewed at some andthat was going to be my first
job and the more I found outabout all these different places
(01:34):
, the less I wanted to workthere, because it felt very much
like a, like you were just sortof a cog in a machine, which I
found interesting from, you know, therapy practice perspective,
but you know it's where peoplewould go.
They would just crush you with acaseload that was so high there
was no space to do any kind ofsupervision or you know
(01:56):
thoughtful development, and likeyou were just locked in this
office all day, even thoughthere were people around you.
You see, your people, they werereally careful with your
productivity and you left andthen, the longer you were there,
there weren't opportunities forleadership, there weren't
opportunities for making moremoney over time, like there was
no opportunity for innovation ordoing things differently.
(02:17):
It was just like this is theway it's done, this is what
we're doing, and some of them,even at the time, were doing a
lot of things that were, in myopinion, quite sketchy in
regards to, like, insurance andinsurance billing.
So basically figured, well, ifit doesn't exist, maybe we
should make it.
And so once, that's how thatbegan, that's how I started
(02:40):
Asbeth with the idea of of, froma clinician perspective, making
it an enjoyable place to work,making it a place where people
like to stay, making it a placewhere people were able to do,
more specifically, the kinds ofwork they want to do more, you
know, a place where peopleweren't overworked so they could
actually pay attention to theclients that they have, and so
forth.
And so that's how azimuth began.
(03:02):
And then, probably a couple ofyears into our existence, you
know, in Boston there are a lotof people in high pressure
careers, and what we werenoticing is that was pretty much
a lot of the reason why peoplewere coming in the first place,
and that was a lot of work wewere doing was about, kind of
the nuances of those differentprofessions, and at some point I
(03:24):
just figured we should really,this is what we're doing, this
is what we love, this is who'scoming.
Like, we should just do this,this should just be let's focus
in on this.
And so a group of people thatdon't often get identified as
needing services, which I thinkis interesting.
And so it was a way in whichalso to bring people into
therapy who might not identifywith more medical model of you
(03:46):
know, I definitely have thisissue and I need this kind of
therapy to help me.
You know, because anyone can usetherapy, you don't need a
diagnosis, you don't need any ofthose things, but the model is
so medical, which is a wholedifferent story that I think a
lot of people, you know that'spart of the stigma and also part
of why people like hesitate,because they don't realize that,
(04:08):
how useful it can be, no matterwhat, and so this was also a
way to allow people tounderstand that and to come in
in a way that felt morecomfortable to them and more in
line with actually what wasgoing on for them.
But that was often and is oftenright about a lot of different
things, which is much more, Iwould say, on the clinical side,
about, like communication orrelationship issues, anxiety,
(04:28):
mood disorders, burnout, likethere's all this stuff going on
in the bottom because people arereally complicated trauma.
And so then you know you'rekind of working on both levels.
So we know you know what ittakes to make partner at a firm.
We know you know, like weunderstand, that working less is
not really a choice for youright now.
So let's work within thatCreative around solutions
(04:53):
because a lot, you know a lot ofthe advice that people get or
have been working on intherapists prior are things that
people know about.
Like, I know I'm supposed tosleep more, but that is not
something that I am able to doat this time in my life.
So, with that in consideration,what are the other more clever
and smaller and more innovativethings that I can do to help
(05:14):
myself within the context ofthis work environment, and what
other things underlying that arecontributing to my work
difficulties?
And so we're kind of working inthat broader spectrum.
So that's sort of the originstory of how we got to where we
are today.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
I love it.
I think it's, you know it's.
I think, first of all, from mystandpoint and to get you know,
maybe maybe a little personalhere like I've, I've gone to
therapy for a few years nowthere was a time where I just
didn't.
It wasn't that I didn't feellike I needed it, I just didn't
because it was medical.
It's like no, I don't haveclinical depression, I don't
(05:53):
need to go to therapy.
And then went through a divorceand I'm like, oh shit, Maybe I
need some help, Because much ofwhat predicated that divorce it
wasn't the divorce itself, itwas the years and years of kind
of withdrawing from personalrelationships, being overwhelmed
(06:14):
with work.
You know there's some childhoodtraumas and things like that
that were playing into the needto overachieve, you know, and
all of this stuff you unpack intherapy and you can process and
work through it, but we don'tnecessarily talk about it very
openly.
But the first therapist that Iwent to was like you need to
work less, You're just workingtoo much.
You need to take some time off,you need to not.
(06:36):
And it's like you know youdon't get it, Like I have to do
this, Like this is like this ispart of me providing for my
family.
This is part of like this isjust the job I of me.
Providing for my family.
This is part of like this isjust the job I have.
This is the skills that I have.
You know, I can't just go, andeven if I go to on a retreat or
something like that, it it ain'tgood right like it's and and
(07:00):
you know it's it I had to find Iended up finding a practitioner
.
That's been wonderful and I'vehad significant progress and
went through different means andso I appreciate the reflection
that, hey, this is not a cookiecutter for everybody and
certainly I think there's peoplein high-pressure careers that
(07:23):
for whatever reason reason, justcan't and and I think that
awareness and acceptance, thenyou can come up with ideas and
solutions that that can workwithin the paradigm of what that
person's dealing with.
I love that approach.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, yeah, and I think the goal is not to like
eradicate all stress.
You know either, which I thinkis I mean I would love that for
everyone.
However, you know that's, Ithink people I think you know
either, which I think is I meanI would love that for everyone.
However, you know that's, Ithink people I think you know
we're like people try to get tothis work life balance right.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Whatever that means, yeah, but that's not the human
experience, right Like not.
We're supposed to face stressin our lives.
That's what life is sometimes.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yes, that's how you learn, that's how you gain
perspective, it's how you learnto take risk, like it's all
these things.
And so I think when you keepthat in mind and you accept that
work-life balance should notactually be the goal because
it's impossible, then you cancome up with a more effective
solution set, because you're notaiming for something that is
(08:23):
impossible and might notactually be better for anyone
ever.
Anyway, um, and I think thatthat's kind of new, uh, you know
, or more unique to like, sortof how we perceive, you know,
because we want people to get towhere they want to figure out
what's important, get to wherethey need to be.
If it's not where they are, notnecessarily rush into that or
(08:46):
make those changes immediatelyfor a lot of reasons.
But logistics, like youmentioned, we can't all just
quit our jobs and move to theBahamas and start an ice cream
shop.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
That sounds lovely, that sounds great.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
The roadmap to do that is important, which also
can build hope and relationshipsand give space for other things
that are really important, youknow, for mental health, and
that's kind of, I think, themost effective way to do it.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
I love that and I think you know this is one of
the things that I know you do alot of work in.
I think a lot of times we getinto these careers and many
times certainly in my sector youkind of fall into it.
You happen like there's avacancy, you're good with people
, and they're like, hey, you doHR, or you're an accountant and
(09:42):
you're doing payroll.
And then they're like, hey, youdo HR, or you're an accountant
and you're doing payroll.
And then they're like, hey, youdo HR as well.
That's such a common story.
And then you look back at 10,15, 20 years later and you're
like, how did I get here.
Who am I, what are my values,what do I actually care about
and how do I make sure I'm notmiserable in my career for the
(10:04):
rest of my life?
And then and then beyond mycareer and I think certainly
I've gone through that, Iexperienced that a few years ago
where you know, you kind ofhave this, this, this
existential crisis of what's myidentity Like, what am I without
work and what do I actuallyvalue.
So for those of us that arekind of having that point of
(10:25):
reflection or struggling withthat on a personal level, what
advice would you have for thoseindividuals and how can we start
to think about getting out ofthis rat race?
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Yeah, and I think what you're talking about is
what we call career enmeshment,when your whole identity kind of
becomes wrapped up in your jobbecause, partly because you've
spent so much time there and sooften actually to your point,
what happens this is sort ofwhat brings people in is they
lose their job, their company isacquired, they get laid off and
(11:04):
they do have this existentialmoment because they don't have
what's so core to them and theyhaven't touched any of the other
baskets you know, so to speak.
So their eggs are in one basket.
They don't know what basketsare there.
Are there any baskets you know?
Like they just don't knowwhat's what, who they are
anymore, and it is anexistential problem and it's
(11:24):
really scary.
It's really really scary.
And also to think back, have Ispent my whole life doing
something that's important to me?
What am I doing?
What am I doing here?
It's a really big question andin general, I think one solution
for that or to start workingaway from that, is also
something that I think is goodfor everyone, which is kind of
(11:47):
trying to discover what youractual values are, because most
people have not had theopportunity or really known that
they should think about theirvalues.
They kind of think that theyknow what they are or they're
assumed about those around themor they've ignored them for a
really long time for childhoodtrauma reasons or financial
reasons or whatever.
(12:08):
And then there is a place, likewhere people sort of arrive, so
to speak, and they've checked alot of boxes, they've made it,
and they're so miserable becausewhatever they're doing has
nothing to do with that, whatthey actually want to be doing,
because there's nothing to dowhat's important to them, um, or
like, because there's nothingto do with what's important to
them, or maybe there's a slightoverlap, right, but for the most
(12:28):
part you're spending what like8, 10, 12, 15 hours a day doing
something that really is not inline with your values or is sort
of counter to your values, andso you know, thinking about your
values is a big task, and Ithink a lot of times people
(12:49):
think it's pretty simple, like,oh well, I know that, like,
money is important to me andfamily is important to me.
So these are my values, andthat's kind of on a surface
level.
Sure, that could be, that couldbe true.
But what is it about family,like?
What is it about the money?
Is it the power, is it thefreedom?
Is it the security?
You know there's like morequestions and really getting
(13:10):
into the nitty gritty, which isa task and it takes a long time,
and people don't like thateither, because you know we're
in an era of quick fixes and Ithink that's in some ways also
people's reservation abouttherapy in general is there is
no time limit.
It could take forever, and thatseems daunting and unpleasant
and it can be, but that doesn'tmean it's not worth doing.
And so you know, we actuallyjust came out last week with an
(13:34):
app for this because I feelpretty strongly about it where
it's an app that helps you dovalues-based journaling.
So you take a quiz that we havethat pops up with your top
three values and then you kindof write down throughout the day
and you can rate how inalignment you were with those
values or not.
And then we have some promptpacks which are basically, if
(13:57):
people aren't sure what to write, you can click in stuff that I
might say to people like one ofmy clients or something like
that, to help people.
Because I mean personally, tobe honest with you, I'm not like
a journaling person by natureand I have forced myself to do
so for a variety of reasons, butsometimes when I open up like a
page or whatever it's on myphone, I'm just what.
(14:20):
I don't even know what happenedtoday.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
You know, like I don't know what I'm supposed to
write about.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
And so that's why we put in the prompts, because I
personally sometimes get alittle stuck in that.
But anyway so yeah, yeah, it'slike I don't know.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
I'm just trying to make it to dinner time.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Yeah, so you know, I think really getting into that,
because then and then whatpeople find is that they have
values that they didn't knowthat they had, because which
also, values can change overtime, because you know, life
happens and you gain perspective, and then they're like, oh God,
I this is so not in alignmentwith what I'm doing, with my
time, and there's this panic andlike I should quit right now,
(14:59):
but I can't quit.
But really, what the next stepis is to make a plan, you know,
make, you know like a verystepwise fashion, because a lot
of things do keep people intheir jobs, such as finances
Right, finances right.
And if you have a kid who'sfinishing college and you need
to pay for that, then mayberight now is not the time to
(15:22):
make that switch, but maybe inthree years you'd be more able
to make that choice.
And so what does that look like?
And then, how do you manage,between now and then, to build
your identity, to figure out whoyou are, to figure out what's
important to you and to fillthose buckets a little bit,
because even that is important.
I think people love a grandgesture, right?
They love to change thingsimmensely and do something
different.
But really it doesn'tnecessarily take that large
(15:44):
scale change to feel better,especially if the goal is not to
eradicate all of your negativefeelings.
You can still hate work alittle bit but then feel so
motivated by these things thatyou're doing outside, even if
they're like for bits and piecesof time.
You know like, for example, wehad somebody once who it was
really important to them to likehelp the underserved, and this
(16:04):
person was a corporate lawyer atthe time and so and could not
quit their job.
And so he decided to startteaching English as a second
language on the weekends, justfor a couple of hours online,
because that brought him a lotof joy and fulfillment in that
and it was something that didn'ttake up too much time and it
(16:25):
was manageable and it reallyhelped sort of fuel him and
because he had these littlepockets of joy not that there
wasn't joy before, but nowthere's more joy.
Pockets of joy Not that therewasn't joy before, but now
there's more joy and it feelsyou can feel lighter and you
know kind of start to get out ofthe hole and then you have a
plan for when it ends.
You know.
If you know, you only have todo something for a certain
(16:45):
period of time, even if thatperiod of time is longer, you
know there's an endpoint and youknow where you're going and
you're excited about it.
So that feels a lot differentthan just being like stuck in a
hole at work.
You know.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I can, like you know, you could
probably unpack this.
I'm sure you've got your, your,your thoughts on this.
But, like, great example, on apersonal level, I used to want
to be a musician, you know, andnow I'm in a human resource.
I'm now I'm a human resourcesofficer, you know, and it's, and
it's it's so far away from likewhere I started as a, as a
(17:19):
child, um, but that's my, that'smy passion, and but it's it's
interesting, cause I think whatyou know.
I love that you said you canhate your job a little bit,
because the reality is it, and Iwould say, like anybody that's
in human resources or leader ofpeople, you should hate your job
a little bit because you haveto fire people, right, like
(17:41):
there are aspects of your jobthat are absolutely like they
should make you hate what you'redoing in that moment, and if
you don't, then there's aproblem.
Right, you should hateterminating people.
Like that should be the worstthing.
Like you should wake updreading that.
And if you don't, right, youshould hate terminating people.
That should be the worst thing.
You should wake up dreadingthat, and if you don't, you've
lost some of your humanity.
That's my perspective.
(18:04):
But because of that over theyears I truly like I'm a good
corporate soldier.
I can do that stuff right Forwhatever reason.
I can flip a switch and beextremely effective at being
logical and laser focused oncorporate objectives.
But that fights against thesoul of who I am.
(18:27):
The soul of who I am is kind ofa creative connector that uses
music to do that, and so acouple years ago I kind of got
reengaged in that part of mybrain and, while I am certainly
not going to quit my corporategig to go play music, I have
(18:47):
been able to incorporate musicinto my life and playing a show
tonight, just a one-man show,local, great little local place.
I'm recording some music, I'mwriting songs again, you know,
and.
But what's been interesting is,as I've started to reconnect to
that point, the rest of my lifehas been more enjoyable, right.
(19:10):
So, even though I still hateaspects of my job and my team
can quote me on that if they'relistening to this I hate my job
sometimes, sorry, but I feellike it's made me a more
relatable and a better leaderbecause of that.
So I do think there's so muchinherent truth in that but it's
(19:32):
difficult for people to dowithout guidance.
Truth than that, but it'sdifficult for people to do
without guidance, right?
So maybe stepping back and likeas a leader of people and a
corporate leader, how can wehelp others who are maybe
struggling with this?
And certainly we're on thefront lines of seeing workplace
(19:54):
stress A lot of times.
We're the people that peoplecome to when they are near
burnout or breakdown oroverwhelmed.
How can we help them kind ofunderstand some of these
principles and kind of get outof this stuck feeling?
Speaker 2 (20:12):
It's a great question .
I think the first advice islistening, which I know you guys
do a lot of anyway.
But you know people will say ifyou ask them right what's wrong
, they might give you an answer.
But if you ask them a littlebit more and get a little
further into it, you realizeit's about something else most
of the time and that somethingelse is actually the root of the
(20:35):
problem.
And so solving, you know,really inquiring in a way that's
helpful, so that you're notputting a Band-Aid on something,
instead you're actually tryingto heal what's causing the
problem, is a great way to go.
I mean, the thing about that isit does take a lot of time and
you have to have relationshipswith people.
They can't be afraid of HR, youknow, or you know you have to
(20:57):
kind of put them at ease and letthem have a space where they
can say what they need to say,which can sometimes be about
other people at work or theirboss or CEO or whatever, but
oftentimes it's not even aboutthat.
So I think, really listening andasking a lot of questions, and
then people like to be heardanyway and sometimes that's
(21:18):
enough to just kind of getthrough the day.
It's just to have someone say,hey, you look pretty miserable,
like are you all right?
Because I don't think peopleask that question very often and
even when I was in grad schoolI went through a period of time
where I was really strugglingwith a lot of stuff.
There's a period of time whereI was really struggling with a
lot of stuff.
There's a lot of things goingon in my personal life.
(21:39):
I was in an internship.
That was really hard.
There was all these thingsProbably a couple months into
that.
Another thing I mean obviouslywe're all therapists, but my
grad student was like, are youall right?
And I was like I am not allright.
Thank you for asking me, and Ijust kind of also prompted me to
do a little moreself-reflection of how to help
myself and what needs to happennext.
(21:59):
So I think people like to beseen and heard and that's a
really good first step and Ithink also allowing them or
creating and this is hardbecause it's also a company
culture issue but creating aspace where it's like OK to take
a mental health day.
And I think that that's notabout saying it, because I think
(22:20):
and we say all sorts of stuffyou know and people, but they
need to be able to believe thatthat's a safe thing to do, and
the way that that happens isthrough, you know, demonstration
from leadership and you knowleading by relationship and all
sorts of other things that arebigger than what you're asking,
but, you know, allowing them toknow that everyone's a person.
We all have so much going on inour personal lives and work on
(22:42):
top of that.
We work so hard.
There's so much here.
You know it's a lot to carry.
It's just as a person.
And then you add on the otherkinds of struggles, like trauma
or, you know, difficult personat work or not making a
promotion or something it's justlike a lot.
Or not making a promotion orsomething, it's just like a lot.
So I think just listening,creating a safe space and then
teaching people about the thingsthat we're talking about is
(23:05):
really helpful, because a lot ofpeople don't know about any of
it and that's really eye-openingfor them when they come to us.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Yeah, I think there's so much there that we could
take away.
But in my, my call to action,hr people is like you can't just
say it because because there'sa lot, there's a lot out there
right now where it's like, youknow, mental mental health is
important and there's all.
You know, we support ouremployees with their mental
(23:40):
health journeys, but it's onething to say that and it's
another thing to not allowsomebody to use PTL.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Right.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Right, and that's where I get really kind of
pretty passionate about.
You know our role within ourorganizations and that is you
own this stuff.
If you say something and youhave a policy that directly
contradicts that statement, thenyou have failed as an HR
professional.
Great example we had acorporate management meeting and
(24:13):
the theme of the managementmeeting was psychological safety
.
It was very intentional andthere's a ton of research out
there amy edmondson is kind ofthe leader in the research and
that's what.
That was the content that we,we, we shared and reflected
around as a leadership team.
But basically it says likepsychologically safe teams win.
Right, it's as simple as that.
(24:35):
But from an hr, you can't justsay that we want psychological
safety and then make people feelthreatened at work or feel like
if they say the wrong thing,they're going to be on a hit
list and fired the next week.
And so it was funny.
(24:55):
We had a.
Then we had a dine-around andwe asked everybody to actually
write down on, like anonymously,on cards, like real bold
lessons for leadership, and itwas like people were afraid to
write it down.
And so in my mind I'm like,well, you know what We've got
(25:18):
work to do, and so we, we, youknow we took the that feedback
and we we kind of expanded it,but that's it's like.
It's stuff like that.
You like, you have to be honestwith yourself Like, are we just
saying it or are we actuallydoing something about it?
One of the aspects that wetouched on this early and we
could spend like an entire daytalking about this.
(25:39):
You talked about psychology andmental health being very, very
kind of clinical and medicallybased.
Right, and I think, as much aswe've tried to eliminate the
stigma, there is still one outthere.
There is still one out thereand certainly in the workplace
there's a stigma around peoplethat need to use an employee
(26:00):
assistance program or peoplethat need to take a mental
health day, and there's stillsome trepidation out people as
(26:23):
we do benefits and things likethat.
How can we make sure that weare preventing a stigma from
occurring or giving people acomfortability saying hey, no, I
might not have clinicaldepression, but I am near, near
workplace burnout or I I feellike I need a, I need some help.
(26:45):
How can we help our employeeswork through some of these
things in a way that's notcausing stimulus?
Speaker 2 (26:51):
well, I think even just explaining that is a great
first step.
You know, like I think peopledon't realize that therapy can
be used all the time, so youdon't necessarily have to have x
, y and z.
And I think part of the stigmatoo is like sometimes, is you
know people's own stuff?
(27:11):
They're not ready to navigatethat yet, but they see people
around them and so it's almostlike a defense you know against
like their own stuff.
That might be a lot of likeputting out that stigma or, um,
something like that.
I'll just leave it at that.
But um, so I think you know,just telling people, you know
(27:32):
you can go to, I mean, peoplehave coaches throughout their
whole life for everything right,and you're a kid, like
basketball, you've got SATtutors you have.
You know, like you have inresidency, you've got fellows
telling you what to do.
Like you know, people are notafraid of executive coaches.
They're not afraid of regularcoaches which, by the way, I
mean I think there's some greatcoaches out there, but there's
no regulation for coaching.
(27:53):
So also so like you could spendall this money on somebody who
really doesn't have theexperience to help you.
And people aren't afraid ofthat, but they're afraid of of
like other things, and they'reafraid of therapy because they
don't want to know sometimeswhat is quote unquote wrong with
them.
But really that's not what thetopic is a lot of the time.
It's about how to manage, it'sabout how to reach your goals,
(28:16):
it's about self-improvement,it's about quality of life, you
know, and sometimes that has todo with clinical issues, um and
but sometimes it doesn't, orsometimes it does, but you're
not ready to do that, so youdon't do that and you do other
things instead.
Um, you know, it is self-guidedin that way.
There's no, you can't atherapist, can't really you talk
(28:40):
about anything.
So I think just keeping that inmind and sharing that with
employees is helpful To extentpeople are comfortable.
I think, sharing personalexperiences or people you know
who've been to therapy, or youknow taking a mental health day,
or you know, oh, you should dothat because I did it, like six
weeks ago, because this thinghappened.
You know anything that'sappropriate and it depends also
(29:04):
again on the workplace culture,how big your company is, you
know what kind of managementstyle, you know all of that.
But to not just say it but togive an example, you know, like
this happens, like somebody elsedid this the other day.
Don't, we're not gonna tell youwho it is, but you know, because
psychologically safe teams dowin, because they are productive
, they're focused, they feelcared for, they feel heard, they
(29:25):
feel seen, they're efficient.
You're not paying for constantturnover.
You know hiring and firing andall this, you know it's like it
is the way to really succeed andI think a lot of that has to be
top down and culture based,which is sort of a separate
question or topic rather.
But I think the more that wecan just alert people to the
(29:47):
helpfulness and that otherpeople are actually doing this,
you know, is good, becausepeople will say, like they don't
need a mental health day aftertheir parent died.
I'm like you have to be out ofthis office for weeks.
I don't understand.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
I know it's wild, I think it's interesting.
Yeah, I totally agree, I don'tknow it's interesting as a
society that, like we, you knowwe celebrate people like
foregoing personal, you knowpersonal needs and you know, for
(30:26):
the sake of profitability Imean it's definitely a societal
construct.
You know, I don't think you canblame, you can't blame any
single corporation for it ornecessarily any single leader
for it.
I think you know we kind ofcelebrate that right.
Those are our heroes.
But I do think we're seeing alittle bit of a sea change here
(30:49):
where corporations are realizingthat, you know they do have to
kind of support the whole human.
You can't I think COVID taughtus that right that you can't
just keep operating business asusual when people are going
through these, these traumaticevents or tragic events or or
just need need some frickingtime to like catch their breath.
(31:11):
And you know I I think, likefrom my statement, to the extent
that this helps anybody.
Like I see a therapist usuallyevery other week, but at least
once a month and sometimes it'sjust unpacking the month and
it's literally just withprivilege.
So it is truly a safe space.
(31:32):
I can just talk about all myconcerns and hopes and fears and
dreams and dreams that aren'tcoming true or whatever, and
sometimes it gets really intenseand challenging and sometimes
it's kind of surfacy and I feellike I just kind of just
unpacked.
For me it's like going to thegym.
It's like sometimes you justgot to work it out and then I'm
(31:53):
better afterwards and I get paidto think.
So I got to make sure that mybrain is operating at as close
to 100% capacity as possible andthat's how I think about it and
I think you know I'm not sayingthat's the right way to think
about it, but I think sharingthat we go to therapy is maybe
(32:13):
the first step, just like hey,it's okay, right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
I love that perspective and I'll also share.
You know, I mean I've been intherapy since I was like 25.
I'm not going to tell you howold I am, but that was a really
long time ago Mostly with thesame person actually, and she's
out on leave now since probablyDecember sometime, and I think
she's February, march.
(32:37):
We're resuming.
But I like feel it in a waythat was almost surprising to me
, even though I know all of thisinformation where, like, I feel
like I have I've bottled up allthese things that are happening
and some are really hard andserious and about other stuff
and some are not, but I'm like Idon't have a space to kind of
like talk about any of this andI don't like it and it is not
(33:00):
making me a better person, it'smaking things harder for me and
a less effective person at work,at home and all that.
And even you know I'll alsoshare.
Like a while ago I had, I hadsome like very traumatic events
happen and I know some abouttrauma because I'm a therapist
and so it was just reallyinteresting because I know some
about trauma because I'm atherapist and so it was just
really interesting because Iknow all of these things that
(33:21):
happen to people right, likeflashbacks and cognitive changes
and all this, and as it'shappening to me, I was almost
like surprised by it that Icouldn't just like navigate that
by myself, because I knew whatit was.
Not to say, I hadn't experiencedtrauma before, but not in this
way.
And you know, even I was like,well, I off, I go to therapy
(33:43):
twice a week now because this islike I'm stuck in this, even
though I can see it happening tome, I know what it is.
It's like I can't help myself.
And so I think, even when youdo have a lot of information, or
you know about anxiety oryou've read about it and you
know about the hierarchy ofexposure or whatever doing it
and implementing, it isimpossible to do on your own, um
(34:04):
, even if you know about it.
So I think that's also somethingto keep in mind too, is like
you can read all you want aboutit, but it's really hard to do
absolutely so.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Uh with that, I think , um, you know that's a kind of
a great but you know a greatplace to uh, to shift gears and
and we're coming to the end ofour time together.
But, like I said before, we hitrecord.
I'm like we always get intothese conversations and then
like, like we're just gettingwarmed up and then we have to
end, you know, the like 30minute podcast recording.
So, um with that, I want towant to shift gears and um, to
(34:39):
shift gears and I want to ask acouple questions on the Rebel HR
flash round.
Are you ready?
Speaker 2 (34:45):
All right, let's hear it.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Okay, Question number one where do we need to rebel?
Speaker 2 (34:52):
We were talking about this before.
I think we need to have a pushfor civil discourse in every
facet of our lives.
I mean, how can we learn?
We need to learn from eachother, and that's how we, you
know, that's how doctors learnto be doctors they learn from
each other.
And so I think we're so afraidof people that are different.
(35:13):
Now, I think, really embracingthat and asking questions like
why did you do that, like whatis you do that?
What is important to you,without the judgment and
accusatory language, I think isreally important.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Can I make a comment?
This is kind of like a randomtangent on that, but I just
learned that there's this TikTokchallenge called the no
Judgment Challenge and I washearing this from my 11-year-old
and she's like yeah, we did theno Judgment challenge.
And I was hearing this from my11 year old and she's like, yeah
, we did the no, the no judgmentchallenge.
And you say like you say likethree things that could be
judged or should be judged, Um,and the challenge is for someone
(35:50):
to just sit there and listenand not judge.
You Like that's the challengeand I'm like that's kind of a
great for you.
Like you hear about thesestupid dance challenges and
stuff.
You're like you know what Ilike, that challenge, but it was
stuff like I used yourtoothbrush without telling you,
you know and stuff like that.
But you know, on a more seriouslevel, I do think it's like
we've forgotten to just becurious about each other and
(36:11):
nonjudgmental.
You know, like the Ted Lassoquote, you know, be curious, not
judgmental.
I.
And you know, like the TedLasso quote, you know, be
curious, not judgmental.
I love that and I hope that weget to a point where that's not
rebellion, right.
You know, like, let's not gothere.
Last question for you You'vebeen a lovely guest and really
(36:36):
appreciate you sharing yourknowledge and, most importantly,
sharing your time.
How can our listeners connectwith you?
How can they learn more?
And you mentioned an app,really appreciate you sharing
your knowledge and, mostimportantly, sharing your time.
How can our listeners connectwith you?
How can they learn more?
Speaker 2 (36:48):
And you mentioned an app.
How can we get our hands on theapp and do more of what you're
recommending here?
Yeah, so everything that wehave is on our website.
So it's azmuthpsychcom,a-z-i-m-u-t-h psychcom, and that
has all the stuff we do in ourpractice.
It has the values questionnairewith a link to the app, which
I'll talk about in a second, andalso some free tools that we
(37:11):
have.
So we have a burnout calculatoron there, we have a values
navigator on there, we have acareer enmeshment test.
There's also everything that'sbeen in the media.
That's all linked there too.
So that's like our main place.
The app link is there.
It's also on the app store.
It's clearly values journalingand it also has its own website.
(37:32):
If that's easier, it's justcalled clearlyhqcom.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
It's just called clearlyhqcom Awesome.
I appreciate the practicaltools and the help and really
appreciate the focus, really,really helpful and in the really
important aspect for all of uscertainly the listeners of this
podcast to to support.
So thank you, jana, for yourtime.
You've been a lovely guest andhave a great rest of your day.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Thanks, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
All right, that does it for the rebel HR podcast.
Big thank you to our guests.
That does it for the Rebel HRpodcast.
Big thank you to our guests.
Follow us on Facebook at RebelHR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR
guy, or see our website atrebelhumanresourcescom.
The views and opinionsexpressed by Rebel HR podcast
are those of the authors and donot necessarily reflect the
official policy or position ofany of the organizations that we
(38:36):
represent.
No animals were harmed duringthe filming of this podcast.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Baby.
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