February 12, 2025 • 36 mins
What happens when personal power is mistaken for mere likability? Chris Lipp, professor at Tulane University and author of "The Science of Personal Power," joins us to unmask the illusions surrounding personal power and its true essence. Through engaging conversation, Chris reveals his transition from studying persuasion to dissecting the power dynamics that shape our interactions. We explore how real personal power can uplift rather than overshadow others, using historical figures like George Washington as exemplars of how formidable leaders enhance those around them.
Chris challenges the conventional wisdom linking niceness with respect, drawing a distinction between superficial charm and authentic self-worth. With references to cultural stories like "The Wizard of Oz," we unravel how deceptive appearances can be. The dialogue delves into the importance of setting boundaries, moving beyond mere affirmations to establish respect and fortify relationships. This episode is an invitation to redefine your understanding of influence by fostering self-respect and mastering the behaviors that underpin genuine power.
Discover the profound connection between mindset, values, and success as we outline the themes of Chris's latest book. By aligning actions with personal values, one can significantly boost confidence and efficacy, particularly in high-pressure situations. Chris shares insights into workplace courage, illustrating that taking ownership, even amid failure, can earn respect and lead to career advancement. Encouraging leaders to question whether their teams are metaphorically getting "frostbite," we underscore the necessity of facing fears to make impactful decisions. Engage with us for a deeper insight into personal power and connect through social media for more riveting discussions.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/clipp/
https://www.amazon.com/Science-Personal-Power-Confidence-Success/dp/1394273649
Rebel HR is a podcast for HR professionals and leaders of people who are ready to make some disruption in the world of work. Please connect to continue the conversation!
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http://www.kyleroed.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all
things innovation in thepeople's space.
I'm Kyle Rode.
Let's start the show.
Welcome back, rebel HRcommunity.
We are going to have a funconversation today With us.
We have an amazing guest, chrisLipp.
He is a professor at TulaneUniversity and author of the
(00:25):
book that is available now wherebooks are sold the Science of
Personal Power.
Chris, welcome to the podcast,thank you.
Well, I'm really excited totalk about this topic and I
think that there's going to be alot of great insight that you
can share with our audience.
So excited for the conversationtoday.
My first question for you thatI'd like to understand is what
(00:48):
motivated you to write a bookabout the science of personal
power?
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I think all of us in business, particularly in
organizations, we sometimesstruggle with a sense of
identity or that when we're partof something larger, but also
it's still our lives that we'reliving.
And at first, you know, I wasconcerned about my voice being
heard in this environment.
Right, how do I stand out?
How can I actually have a placeto stand on that's not standing
(01:13):
on sort of a shaky bridge ofother people's opinions, and I
believed that the way to dealwith that was really to kind of
be able to influence otherpeople's opinions.
So I wrote a few books onpersuasion.
Really, I thought communicationwas the key, which it is one of
the most important keys.
But even with great persuasion,I began to understand, or at
(01:35):
least be able to see thisdynamic that was happening
underneath the conversation,which now I know the words, you
know ultimately is the powerdynamic that's happening, and we
feel it when we walk into aroom with our executive
management.
We might feel small, we mightfeel intimidated or fearful, we
might feel like we're overlypeople pleasing and, you know,
basically giving our power away.
And other times, though, wewalk into these environments and
(01:57):
we feel confident, we feelstrong, we voice our opinions,
everybody listens to us, thingsare working the direction we
want it, and all of that ispersonal power, and so I spent
the last.
I think it was six.
It's been about six years nowthat I've been really
researching.
This combined all the researchthat I did from the last 20
years into the book, the Scienceof Personal Power.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
So I love the topic because and I think as a
recovering people pleaser itdefinitely resonates with me
personally struggle with that,you know, that aspect with kind
(02:46):
of the retention of their ownpersonal power and agency and
and and balancing the demands ofbeing kind of a people person,
right or or or a leader ofpeople or or, you know, an
influencer.
So so, as you were writing thisbook and and kind of you know,
doing doing your research onpersuasion and ultimately power,
(03:07):
what I guess advice or tips ortricks would you tell somebody
who is kind of a natural peoplepleaser on how to kind of retain
your power and not give it away?
I loved the bridge of otherpeople's opinions as kind of an
(03:28):
image there.
I'm curious what advice youwould have for us.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
One of the challenges I think a lot of us face is we
like people.
I mean, we're people, peopleright.
And it's in my own life that myhighest value is really the
people in my life, right, myrelationships.
And what happens is sometimeswe get that confused with being
nice or being kind ofpeople-pleasing, right,
people-pleasing kind of has anegative connotation precisely
(03:52):
because we can sense that we'regiving our power away, even as
we're being nice to so-and-sopersons.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
This is going to be edited.
I assume right my brain justblanked, you're good man, it's,
it's all good.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
One of the benefits of personal power is that we
don't have to give our poweraway in order to help other
people feel empowered.
In fact, this is, you know,people pleasing.
There's this sense that, yeah,we are giving something of
ourselves away in the process ofpushing others up.
But real personal power, realpersonal power, as we stand in
our power, others around us getempowered.
(04:33):
And so, you know, we see thiswith great leaders.
I mean, there's a lot of talkabout in the nation.
I'm going to go see AlexanderHamilton the musical soon again,
and you know it's all about.
There's George Washington andall this stuff, and you know,
you think about GeorgeWashington as a leader, and
here's a, here's a man that weassociate with super strong
power, but at the same time,he's empowering other people
(04:56):
around him, you know, andthey're creating a nation, and
so personal power is somethingthat is that rubs off on other
people too, but it's not peoplepleasing.
It's a certain way of being,it's a certain way of and we'll
talk.
I'm sure you're going to askquestions about this, but I'm
happy to discuss.
You know what, what, where doesthat really come from?
How does that show up?
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yeah, yeah, no, I think it's, it's a fascinating.
It's a fascinating topicbecause I think many of us
certainly certainly if we wereraised to be humble or not brag
too much or not cause too manywaves we really struggle with
(05:36):
this idea of personal powerbecause it almost feels like
aggressive.
Even the term power there, youknow it's, there's, there's
associated aggression there.
But you know, what I'm hearingyou say is that it's not about.
It's not about like a a win, Iwin, you lose, kind of a thing
you know you're you're talkingabout.
(05:58):
You're talking about somethingthat kind of.
You know it is about elevatingeverybody's power and and my
assumption is that the researchproves out that if everybody
feels empowered and everybodyfeels that they can kind of have
their own voice and retaintheir, their, their own personal
power, then you find much moresuccess in whatever endeavors
(06:22):
you're you're approaching right.
So help me unpack a little bitthe difference between what our
common definition of power isversus what you're talking about
here, which I think they'reslightly kind of different
definitions.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, well, you know what the first thing to
understand is.
I'm not talking about soft,fuzzy power either.
I'm not talking about communitypower and what we generally
associate with empowerment, withthese sort of empathic
leadership.
So there's this.
I think what I call it is likea false dichotomy in society
today.
You're either an alphadominator or you're this
empathic, connected leader.
(06:58):
And so you know.
And the truth is you know,we've seen both types of leaders
succeed.
We've seen both types ofleaders be respected.
In fact, bill Gates is commonlythought of as a dominator and if
you look at the history ofhimself in Microsoft, you know
he was super dominant and hewould shout people down and he
would insult them when they gavebad ideas.
And his employees loved him andthey said that it brought out
(07:21):
the best in them Right.
But other times you get otherpeople, like Harvey Weinstein,
who's like the anathema of aleader, right, and you could
argue he's we would put the samelabel like a dominator on him,
and yet everybody hates him.
And so you know it's not.
It's not the dominance at all,just as it's not the empathy at
all these.
In fact, if you look atresearch on status and also
(07:43):
personal power, they did a lotof personality research and one
of them looked at the big five,and one of the big five traits
is agreeableness, like howpeople-friendly are you and
these things.
And what the research found isthat there is zero correlation
to agreeableness, meaning thatit doesn't matter how warm and
friendly you are.
That's not where your powercomes from, that's not where
(08:03):
other people's gets empoweredfrom.
Mind you, it wasn't a negativecorrelation.
If it was a negativecorrelation, then coldness would
have been powerful, but itwasn't coldness or kindness, it
was that was irrelevant.
It was, it was deeper than that.
So what's an example?
People who are in theirpersonal power.
They have a sense of controlover their environment, so
they're more apt to takeresponsibility, like they
(08:24):
literally experienced that theyalways see an outlet for them to
influence the environment inwhich they're in.
So, for example, in voting,voters who feel powerless
believe their vote doesn't count.
Oh, I'm just one of 400 million, basically Right, but an
empowered person will think myvote counts, like.
It's that sense of like.
I see that my actions have animpact on the environment and as
a result of that conclusion orthat perspective, people then
(08:46):
automatically takeresponsibility.
And I put in a few examples ofsome very famous people, like
Bob Iger.
How did he become the CEO ofDisney?
He was taking responsibilityeven for the failures.
It's our modus operandum to say,hey, yeah, I'll associate with
wins, but I'll distance myselffrom failures.
But in that distancing of ourfailures, we're communicating to
ourselves and to everybody elsethat we're powerless.
(09:07):
Right, that's what blame isLike.
I didn't do it, I wasn't undermy control, somebody else did it
.
It's literally the worst thingyou can tell others, because
they'll respect you less.
And it's the worst thing youcan tell yourself, because
you're saying I didn't have anoption of control, okay, so why
put this in an even biggerpicture?
Right?
So people who are personallyempowered take responsibility
for their environment and, as aresult of taking responsibility,
(09:28):
they then feel like, hey, Ihave impact over my environment.
In fact, the definition weshould have started with this
the definition of personal poweris our belief in our own
capability to create impact.
Our belief in our owncapability to create impact.
So, belief in our owncapability to create impact, so
it's a personal belief we have.
That's why it's not competitive, but it's a belief that's
(09:49):
unconscious and and we can'tjust like, affirm it into
existence.
It doesn't.
The unconscious doesn't workthat way.
The unconscious is watching our, our, our behavior, and so when
we, when we take responsibility, we begin to communicate to our
subconscious.
Oh, so, when we takeresponsibility, we begin to
(10:18):
communicate to our subconscious.
Oh, I have power over this.
And so we see outlets of actualpower.
And now what's interesting isbecause people who are
personally powerful won't letthem get away with that blame.
They'll hold those peopleaccountable.
So holding others accountableis a natural result of also
being empowered, and when youhold others accountable, you
break their illusion thatthey're powerless, right?
So it's really uncomfortable tobe held accountable, but it's
(10:38):
also very empowering to be heldaccountable, because at once you
have to face your own, whateveryou did wrong, but at the
second time you also are forcedto confront the fact that you
actually can do something aboutit that's fascinating, um, you
know it's.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
It's interesting too because I, I do think certainly,
I would say certainly, earlierin my career I fell into this
trap of like the kind of thelikability thing and like being
warm, right, and like that's.
You know, I think I, you know,in my, in my youth, I must took
that for like being able to be,to build like effective
(11:16):
relationships we all do, right,you know, because it's like, oh,
that's what I'm supposed to act, this way, I'm supposed to be
like, you know, a certain wayfor people to like me and that's
going to actually give me somelevel of like relational power.
But the reality is like, likeit, it's so much deeper than
that and if it's hollow, peoplewill figure it out, right, it's
(11:38):
almost like I'm almost theopposite end of the spectrum now
, where I'm kind of like, eh,take it or leave it, I don't
really care, but I'm going to,you know, kind of retain my own
integrity and, and you know, I,you know, and in general, that's
, that's worked out for me, um,but it's, but it's also caused
more conflict, right, and, andyou know, I think, where I
(11:58):
probably would have gone, gonewith the flow, or, or, you know,
been been Mr Nice Guy or notsaid anything.
Now I would kind of raise myhand and say, well, wait a
minute time out.
This doesn't seem right to me.
I think we need to go thinkabout this decision a little
differently.
Or I think you've got the readwrong here and we're operating
(12:19):
off assumption versus fact, orwhatever the scenario is, and in
general people might be pissedinitially but ultimately realize
, oh it's, this was a good thing.
And so I want to talk aboutthis a little bit, because I
think I, I think this is this isnot distinctly a male, female
thing.
(12:39):
But I think a lot of times weget into this like this nice and
you hear the term nice guysfinish last.
But I think it's broader thanthat.
I think it's like a societal,cultural thing where sometimes
nice people get trampled on.
So how can we, in the contextof what we're talking about here
, this personal power, how canwe kind of spot that, be aware
(13:03):
of that and for ourselves, makesure that we're not falling into
this trap of being so agreeablethat people trample all over?
Speaker 2 (13:10):
us.
It's both genders right, it'snice guys finish last.
But of course, there's thiswhole myth of leading with
likability and the pressure thatwomen face to be balancing both
assertion with being nice,essentially right.
And again, I just want to pointout the research in both
personal power and status statusbeing your position, informal
position within a hierarchy, thehierarchy of respect, that
(13:33):
agreeableness, being nice, haszero correlation, like it
literally does not matter how,not how cold or kind you are.
That's not the factor by whichpeople are evaluating you, even
though we tend to see it thatway because we can't see deeper.
And this is where the researchhas really helped.
So, when we look at this dynamic, I think that if you were to
(13:54):
separate a powerful person froma powerless person, if I were
just to simplify it in like themost basic definition
oversimplification maybe itwould be that powerful people
are focused on their own goals.
Powerless people are focused onthe opinions of others.
So powerless people are focusedon their own goals.
Powerless people reallyessentially want to be liked by
others.
They care about the evaluationof others and, as a result of
(14:16):
caring about that evaluation, webury our opinions right.
Sometimes we be nice, we rollover, sometimes we'd even get
defensive.
When we react and we lash outat people, that's also showing
insecurity.
Sometimes we're gettingdefensive because we care about
their opinion.
If we didn't care, it wouldn'teven bother us.
(14:37):
Whatever it's like having a dogbark at us.
There's a lot of ways we react,but anyway, I think that's
important to keep in mind is forpeople like you and me, who
care about others and care aboutour team, that value is our
goal, that's our value, and sowe know when it's coming from
(14:59):
the inside out versus when we'redoing it out of fear.
Fear is really the ultimatedriver of a people pleaser.
We use that word negatively andwe use that word negatively.
And so if we're afraid of whatothers think about us, if we're
insecure, we're going to act ina way that we're telling
ourselves we're being nice andwe're telling ourselves we're
being people, people, people,persons.
(15:21):
But we're really not.
We're really not.
We're manipulating.
Maybe you could even say incontext and can you imagine
being in a relationship with aspouse, for example, who likes
you because they're afraid ofyou or because they care about
your opinion in an insecure way,versus a spouse that loves you
(15:42):
because they're coming fromtheir heart and they're just
expressing their love for you.
It's so obvious inrelationships that we want the
type of people who come from theinside out, not from the
outside in, and that's andthat's really the big difference
between being a likable person,being somebody who values
others.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Yeah, I think it's it's, it's, it's fascinating and
I think some of it's just, youknow, kind of growing up and
becoming more mature, that youknow.
I think you start off with thisassumption that people who
appear to be, you know,accomplished but are hollow, are
(16:24):
kind of aspirational people tobe like.
And then the older you get,you're like oh, there's nothing
behind the curtain.
You know, it's almost like theWizard of Oz.
Now I'm in a wicked you knowthing because my girls are like
singing wicked.
It's like the Wizard of Oz,right, it's like I've got this
all powerful wizard and it'sjust some dude that's just
trying to, you know, just tryingto fake it until he makes it
and it all comes crashing down.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
And you know what's fascinating.
I just want to add, you know,like you mentioned, like okay,
well then, what can we do aboutthis?
Right, this is, you'reabsolutely right, and it is
hollow, and here's what we cando about it.
We're afraid.
Everybody wants to be part of agroup.
We're afraid sometimes to standup for what we believe and we
want to be likable.
We're because we think we'reactually going to.
(17:13):
If we're not liked, things aregoing to go sideways or bad for
us or whatever.
The research is super clear whenyou come in with boundaries
everybody knows that's importantto have boundaries, but when
you come in with boundaries,people respect you more and the
relationship actually becomeshealthier.
So we could you know, we couldalways talk about boundaries
more, but I think that'ssomething that people keep in
mind is it's again, it's notabout likability or dominance.
(17:35):
It's about certain deeperbehaviors, and one of those
behaviors is the self-respectthat when you put up your
boundaries, people might getupset when they run your
boundaries, but but then they'regoing to respect you more and
the relationship is going to getactually stronger yeah so
nothing it's it's, it's aninteresting, it's like an
interesting reframing of of allof this.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
I I want to circle back to something you said,
because I think, I think youhear a lot about like
manifesting and you know, know,like, like like giving yourself
a pep talk or like tellingyourself you know, I've got
power, I'm powerful, I can dothis, you know.
Or like say it in front of themirror and and you know you
(18:19):
mentioned, you can't just affirmit into existence, right, it's,
it's really behavioral and I,and I think but I do think, a
lot of it comes down to tomindset.
So, you know, for those of usthat are maybe trying to drive
some changes or maybe we aredoing work with therapy or
(18:42):
meditation and that sort ofthing, how should we be thinking
about this?
As opposed to just likerepeating affirmations and
hoping for the best?
What are some steps that we canactually start to take to kind
of reframe how we think aboutour own personal power and
likability versus actually, youknow, being a personally
(19:05):
powerful person?
Speaker 2 (19:07):
You mentioned mindset .
Well, mindset, you'reabsolutely right.
Mindset is the crucial factorin personal power, and often,
though, what people areaffirming is their affirming
capability, and that doesn'tnecessarily work If you're out
of your power.
Research suggests you're out ofyour power and your affirm
capability has no impact becauseyou don't take yourself
seriously.
So, like you know, becauseyou're focused on other people's
opinions.
So what you can do is you canaffirm you can come into
(19:32):
alignment with yourself.
So, for example, we talkedabout the very simplified
definition of personal power isa person who's focused on their
own goals, and what research hasfound is that one of the
simplest things you can do is,20 minutes before high stakes
situation, sit down with a listof values, pick out your top
three, let's say, and then, ofthat top three, pick out the top
(19:55):
one value.
This is the most importantvalue to me.
You talk about living purposely,for example, and just write for
four minutes why this value isimportant to you personally not
for the situation, necessarilyjust for you and that plugs you
back into yourself and you comeinto a line with yourself, doing
nothing else.
Research suggests, if you walkinto a high stakes situation,
you're going to, you're going toknock it out of the ballpark
like a power prime, just likethat.
(20:16):
They did this before peoplecame into interviews, 20 minutes
before an interview.
If you prime yourself withpersonal power, you're 81
percent more likely to get hired.
Doing nothing else, it's likeit almost doubles your chance.
So it's about mindset, and oneof the ways you can really get
that mindset, boost that mindsetin yourself, is to take a few
minutes pause and reflect onyour values and your purpose and
(20:39):
this is going to fade and thenyou just do it again and do it
again, and that's how you stayaligned.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think there's also.
I would assume there's probablysomething to be said for that
type of a process.
I'm guessing that I'm headingin the right direction here.
It's also about making surethat you're prioritizing your
values so that you're notletting other people drive your
(21:07):
priorities or the things thatmatter to you, so that you're
not saying yes to everything andthen letting everything else
fall by the wayside.
Am I onto?
Am I onto something there?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
They did some research into workplace courage,
like what causes people to bewhistleblowers.
You know, like Edward Snowden,how did he become a
whistleblower?
Um, you know.
And these people who, whoreally stand up, and you know
Enron case.
Why?
Why did people come forward inthis stuff when they faced huge
backlash?
And the research found workplacecourage depends on two, but
basically three factors, and thefirst was every person who
(21:39):
acted courageously.
Number one is they tookresponsibility for what was
happening.
They asked themselves the firstquestion is this my
responsibility?
And those who said, yes, thisis my responsibility, that
mediated courageous action.
That was the real, that was theroot cause of it.
People who said it's not myresponsibility.
Obviously, they're not going todo anything.
But what was fascinating isthis wasn't just like, hey, this
(22:00):
is my formal responsibility.
A lot of the people they had inthe research study.
They just when those people askthemselves oh, you know, the
people who took courageousaction, is this my
responsibility?
Often, what they translatedthat to is am I in a position to
be able to do something aboutthis right now?
Not, is this my role, but can Iactually do something in this
(22:22):
moment?
And they all said yes, thosewho took courageous action.
They took responsibility.
So then, after they tookresponsibility, they asked
themselves one more questionbefore they actually took
courageous action.
And the second question isshould I act?
So then, after they tookresponsibility, they asked
himself one more question beforethey actually took courageous
action.
And the second question isshould I act?
You know that really broke downinto two categories those who
did versus those who didn't.
Those who didn't takecourageous action.
(22:43):
They basically they looked atthe environment, they looked at,
they assessed the threats.
Right, people are out of theirpower.
They're really externallyfocused.
So they're more.
They let fear guide them more.
So, of course, anytime you'retaking courageous action,
there's a threat on the external, otherwise it wouldn't be
courage.
But those who said I should,should I act?
They looked outward and theyanalyzed the threats and they're
like you know, no fear wastheir guiding factor.
(23:05):
Those who took courageousaction, what they did is they
looked inward instead of outwardand they said, okay, is this
aligned with my values or not?
And when they said, okay, thisis not right and I feel this is
not right.
Right, their eyes were pointedinward.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
That then led them to take the action, yeah, so I
think this all to me, it reallymakes a whole lot of sense.
It also, I think, when youreflect on people that are
really successful, I thinkalmost every single one of them,
(23:45):
you could say, whether you likethem or not, they do that, they
do that right, like there isalmost a fanaticism to their
personal you know objectives attimes and I think it's really
kind of it's a fascinating wayto kind of think about it.
(24:08):
So, but we still like to beliked right, like it's still
like it's still like nice to be,to be likable Right, and I
think and I think it's it can bereally uncomfortable for people
who who maybe, maybe, strugglewith that.
So so how do we start?
(24:29):
Small, like, like, where wouldyou recommend that we kind of
like reflect on our own actionsand figure out okay, where am I
maybe too much of a peoplepleaser or maybe stepping out of
my power, being more externallyfocused versus internally
focused on how I think aboutthis?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
you know, I spoke with a uh, a city council member
, um, and I was asking her she'dbeen reelected.
She was totally just out ofnowhere.
She had gotten elected, she wasjust a normal, normal mom and
uh, and she wanted to make adifference and somehow she ended
up doing it, with a lot of work.
Anyway, she got reelected a fewtimes, even though there was a
(25:12):
lot of money against her fromthe political powers that be,
and um and her.
I asked her what's herphilosophy?
I loved that.
I asked this question because Igot such a beautiful answer
from her and she's like you know, because I was asking about
liking and pleasing and stuff,and she's like.
She's like my philosophy is Idon't care if you like me, I'm
(25:32):
here to serve you, right?
I mean, wow, like it's.
That just shows the internaldrive and support of other
people so that's fascinating tome.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
What a what a great answer, because and I've had a
couple guests on the podcastkind of get into this a little
bit where there's almost amisunderstanding about what like
servant leadership means.
Right, you know, it doesn'tmean that you just do what
everybody wants you to do, orkeep everybody happy and smiling
(26:07):
, and you know kumbaya all thetime, but you still, it's more
about having a servant mindsetand and what.
What a distinct differencebetween you.
Know, I, I'm here to serve you,not to be liked by you.
Right, like that's a, that'slike that.
Talk about, yeah, that's like apower, that's like a mic drop
power, move right there for sure.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Um, I think sometimes , as I think parents you might,
you know, recognize, as a parent, your job isn't to make your
kid happy, your job is to makeit Well.
Your job is not to make yourkid like you in the moment,
right, it's to teach them thelessons that's going to make
them the best person they canpossibly be.
That's why I hold theaccountability.
You know like it's a power move.
Like you hold other peopleaccountable, You're in your own
(26:51):
power, you're forcing them to bein their power.
They might hate you in thatmoment, but they're going to
love you.
You know that later on, whenthey see what you've done for
them.
And that's what the beauty aboutthis workplace courage research
was was so many people who,when they, when they stood up
and they spoke against the normand they did that workplace
courage, at first they got likereally serious pushback.
(27:11):
That's what made it like youknow, like like some of their
leaders were like yelling atthem.
Um, there's this one examplewhere they were.
There's a military group infinland and it was like it was
so frosty and they were doingthis multi-day trek and the
medic who's like the youngest,lowest officer in the whole
group, he's like people arestarting to get frostnip, which
is the precondition for right,you're about to get frostbite
(27:32):
and their skin's going to dieand all this stuff.
So he has to go to the majorwho's like this you know the
super head, and he's like he'slike I got to tell them, I got
to tell them, we got to turnaround.
First, he had to make thatchoice.
Like am I going to actually dothis and try to say, hey, we got
to?
And he's like nope, and he justpulled the medical authority,
(27:52):
even though he's like the superjunior officer, anyway.
So they turned around and tookhim two days to get back and he
was saying I'm so glad I did,because people started getting
really bad frostbite on the wayback and they couldn't even
carry their backpacks and stuff.
And he said after they got back, a short time after that,
everybody was obviously theright choice and the major who
was attacking him and beratinghim when he was stepping up into
(28:14):
his power ended up giving him apromotion.
So so when we really stand inour power, in those moments, in
the moment it will beuncomfortable, but in the longer
perspective, a lot of the times, we're actually rewarded, a lot
of the times were actuallyrewarded.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think what a powerfulexample of somebody who
definitely could have taken thequote easy way out but then fast
forward.
If that would have startedhappening and they were still on
the mission and marchingforward and then unable to
complete it and had some sort ofcatastrophic outcome, then
(28:57):
somebody would have beenpointing a finger and going,
well, why didn't you saysomething?
Right?
So it's almost like.
It's almost like doing doingnothing or not saying anything
would have been a catastrophicdecision and probably would have
, you know, probably could havebeen a really bad personal
outcome for that individual andcertainly a horrible outcome for
anybody that had a medicalissue.
(29:18):
So, I think, a great example.
And for the HR professionalsthat are listening, or people
leaders that are listening, Ithink that's a great story to
reflect on.
Is your team getting frostbite?
Great story to reflect on.
You know, is your team gettingfrostbite and are you keeping
quiet when, when there's a youknow, a potentially catastrophic
(29:38):
incident coming up and, and youknow, my, my call to action for
for all of you is um, if, ifyou, if you believe it
internally and you know it's theright thing to do, then it's
more important to be powerfulthan liked.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
It's interesting.
Of course, some people getfired for crossing the managers
and all this stuff.
These cases happen.
People get fired most oftenbecause they're useless.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
I didn't mean to just throw that out there so
casually.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
We've got a lot of mic drops today, people are
hired and fired based on thevalue add that they're perceived
to provide the organization,and when we are not taking
responsibility, we'recommunicating again that we're
not adding value.
And so if you're there and youknow, oh, but it's not my fault,
it's not my fault.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
You're just basically saying I'm not the right person
for this position.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Yeah right, right, I love it.
I's not my fault.
You're just basically sayingI'm not the right person for
this position.
Yeah Right, you know, right, Ilove it and I think that's a
great.
And to those who are afraid theresearch is super clear that
when you stand up and takeresponsibility, even for
failures, or you stand up right,we think all of this because
we're so focused on being liked,we're afraid of anger and
resistance that other peopleshow us.
But the research is super clearthat a lot of these, in the
long run, we get more respect,we're more liked and we're more
(30:59):
likely to get promoted.
When we're doing these things,like standing up, taking
responsibility when things gobad, it doesn't hurt us, even
though it feels like it ishurting us.
It's actually the opposite.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
It might feel hurtful in the moment, but, yeah, yeah,
can you come tell my kids that,by the way, Because this
weekend when my son lost hisphone, he thought I was the
worst person in the world, butwe had a great day after he lost
, after he didn't have his phone.
With that we're going totransition and I'm really
fascinated to hear yourresponses to the Rebel HR
(31:34):
flash-around questions.
Are you ready?
Absolutely All right.
Question number one where do weneed to rebel?
Speaker 2 (31:46):
The metaphysical answer is you need to rebel
against your own fear right.
Rebel against the feelings thatkeep you feeling small.
Rebel against reacting to yourown fears and insecurities.
The most courageous action youcan take is to stand in the face
of your own feelings and choosewhat you know to be right
(32:06):
rather than what you feel to besafe.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
I love it.
Yeah, it's fascinating to me.
So we use the term rebel and,you know, rebel HR, of course,
is a little bit oxymoronic as atitle, but that's really what
we're talking about, like, we'retalking about, you know, being
brave enough to stand up and toown your personal power.
So I, you know, I think I thinkfor, for, for this audience, um
(32:33):
, you know, this is, this isdefinitely a topic to, to dig
into and stand strong in.
So question number two who,yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Because you mentioned HR and you mentioned this and
you know, of course everybodyknows we're in to create culture
change and these things.
But there are times where, ofcourse, we cannot create culture
change because, uh it well it's.
Sometimes it's just a behemoth,you know, it's a mammoth
undertaking.
But also, sometimes theexecutive management is not on
(33:02):
board with what we think is thebest for the organization.
And this is why it's soimportant to empower your
employees, because employeesdon't want to be in an
environment where they feel, youknow, they're disengaged and
all this.
They feel stress, right, andyou're like I want to help you,
right, by changing theorganization.
But an employee will actuallyfeel less stress and more
engaged when they themselves areempowered, regardless of the
environment, right?
Because an employee who'ssaying I'm going to work
somewhere else because of theculture, well, in one sense they
(33:29):
are taking personalresponsibility for their
somewhere else.
And if you begin to helpemployees see that, regardless
of the environment, that theyhave an opportunity, but in
order to do that they have totap into themselves to find that
rather than tap outside into anorganizational change, then you
don't have to feel sorestricted by the behemoth
organization and trying to makechange on a large scale.
(33:51):
If you make it on theindividual scale, that's enough.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Yeah, totally agree, and I, I, I, through the course
of my career, there've been anumber of times where I have
been so incredibly surprised andimpressed when just one, two,
three people do that and the,the, the ripple that's created
is, you know, it's it, itmatters, it really does.
(34:18):
And so, yeah, I, I appreciateyou saying that I totally agree.
Question number two who shouldwe be listening to?
Speaker 2 (34:28):
just that.
That's the answer.
That's the end of your question.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
There you go, I love it, okay, all right.
Um, and then a final questionhow can our listeners connect
with you and learn more?
Just that.
That's the end of your question.
There you go, I love it, okay,all right.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
And then a final question how can our listeners
connect with you and learn moreand get their hands on the book.
Okay, you're going to edit thisbecause I didn't realize.
I thought there was going to bemore to that question, because
I was like, who should peoplelisten to?
You know, my response isobvious People should listen to
themselves.
But how do you do that?
Right, that's not so easy.
Well, first you got to just beself-aware, and I think that the
(34:58):
biggest step anybody can takeyou know, I'm teaching a new
course on personal power here atthe business school at Tulane
and, uh, you know I'm going toteach them all.
We just like, went to the firstweek and we're going to learn
everything about personal powerthere is, but the first step is
awareness and so, like, thefirst lectures were actually
really hard because I'm like,where are you guys not showing
up?
Like, where are you not?
Where are you blaming?
Where are you?
You know, looking outwardrather than inward for the
(35:19):
answers, like it's like thereally uncomfortable stuff.
So the first step to personalpower is self-awareness.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
I love it.
I love it All right.
Last question now.
How can our listeners connectwith you?
I love it All right.
Last question now.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
How can our listeners connect with you?
My website, speakvaluecom.
Of course you can see kind ofwhat I speak on there some of my
books but if you're interestedin the science of personal power
, grab the book on Amazon.
And if this is something youwant to bring into your
organization, I'm happy todeliver workshops.
Or even I can just send youemails and give you some
information on tips you can usewithin your organization.
Absolutely, or even I can justsend you emails and give you
some information on tips you canuse within your organization.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Absolutely so.
The book again the Science ofPersonal Power how to Build
Confidence, create Success andObtain Freedom.
It is available now or booksare sold.
Chris, thank you so much forjoining us and for putting this
out there Really, really greatstuff.
We just scratched the surface,so go get the book and
appreciate your time today,chris Pleasure.
(36:15):
Thank you, kyle.
Thank you All right.
That does it for the Rebel HRpodcast.
Big thank you to our guests.
Follow us on Facebook at RebelHR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR
guy or see our website at rebelhuman resourcescom.
The views and opinionsexpressed by rebel hr podcast
(36:36):
are those of the authors and donot necessarily reflect the
official policy or position ofany of the organizations that we
represent.
No animals were harmed duringthe filming of this podcast.
Baby.
This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all
things innovation in thepeople's space.
I'm Kyle Rode.
Let's start the show.
Welcome back, rebel HRcommunity.
We are going to have a funconversation today With us.
We have an amazing guest, chrisLipp.
He is a professor at TulaneUniversity and author of the
(00:25):
book that is available now wherebooks are sold the Science of
Personal Power.
Chris, welcome to the podcast,thank you.
Well, I'm really excited totalk about this topic and I
think that there's going to be alot of great insight that you
can share with our audience.
So excited for the conversationtoday.
My first question for you thatI'd like to understand is what
(00:48):
motivated you to write a bookabout the science of personal
power?
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I think all of us in business, particularly in
organizations, we sometimesstruggle with a sense of
identity or that when we're partof something larger, but also
it's still our lives that we'reliving.
And at first, you know, I wasconcerned about my voice being
heard in this environment.
Right, how do I stand out?
How can I actually have a placeto stand on that's not standing
(01:13):
on sort of a shaky bridge ofother people's opinions, and I
believed that the way to dealwith that was really to kind of
be able to influence otherpeople's opinions.
So I wrote a few books onpersuasion.
Really, I thought communicationwas the key, which it is one of
the most important keys.
But even with great persuasion,I began to understand, or at
(01:35):
least be able to see thisdynamic that was happening
underneath the conversation,which now I know the words, you
know ultimately is the powerdynamic that's happening, and we
feel it when we walk into aroom with our executive
management.
We might feel small, we mightfeel intimidated or fearful, we
might feel like we're overlypeople pleasing and, you know,
basically giving our power away.
And other times, though, wewalk into these environments and
(01:57):
we feel confident, we feelstrong, we voice our opinions,
everybody listens to us, thingsare working the direction we
want it, and all of that ispersonal power, and so I spent
the last.
I think it was six.
It's been about six years nowthat I've been really
researching.
This combined all the researchthat I did from the last 20
years into the book, the Scienceof Personal Power.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
So I love the topic because and I think as a
recovering people pleaser itdefinitely resonates with me
personally struggle with that,you know, that aspect with kind
(02:46):
of the retention of their ownpersonal power and agency and
and and balancing the demands ofbeing kind of a people person,
right or or or a leader ofpeople or or, you know, an
influencer.
So so, as you were writing thisbook and and kind of you know,
doing doing your research onpersuasion and ultimately power,
(03:07):
what I guess advice or tips ortricks would you tell somebody
who is kind of a natural peoplepleaser on how to kind of retain
your power and not give it away?
I loved the bridge of otherpeople's opinions as kind of an
(03:28):
image there.
I'm curious what advice youwould have for us.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
One of the challenges I think a lot of us face is we
like people.
I mean, we're people, peopleright.
And it's in my own life that myhighest value is really the
people in my life, right, myrelationships.
And what happens is sometimeswe get that confused with being
nice or being kind ofpeople-pleasing, right,
people-pleasing kind of has anegative connotation precisely
(03:52):
because we can sense that we'regiving our power away, even as
we're being nice to so-and-sopersons.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
This is going to be edited.
I assume right my brain justblanked, you're good man, it's,
it's all good.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
One of the benefits of personal power is that we
don't have to give our poweraway in order to help other
people feel empowered.
In fact, this is, you know,people pleasing.
There's this sense that, yeah,we are giving something of
ourselves away in the process ofpushing others up.
But real personal power, realpersonal power, as we stand in
our power, others around us getempowered.
(04:33):
And so, you know, we see thiswith great leaders.
I mean, there's a lot of talkabout in the nation.
I'm going to go see AlexanderHamilton the musical soon again,
and you know it's all about.
There's George Washington andall this stuff, and you know,
you think about GeorgeWashington as a leader, and
here's a, here's a man that weassociate with super strong
power, but at the same time,he's empowering other people
(04:56):
around him, you know, andthey're creating a nation, and
so personal power is somethingthat is that rubs off on other
people too, but it's not peoplepleasing.
It's a certain way of being,it's a certain way of and we'll
talk.
I'm sure you're going to askquestions about this, but I'm
happy to discuss.
You know what, what, where doesthat really come from?
How does that show up?
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yeah, yeah, no, I think it's, it's a fascinating.
It's a fascinating topicbecause I think many of us
certainly certainly if we wereraised to be humble or not brag
too much or not cause too manywaves we really struggle with
(05:36):
this idea of personal powerbecause it almost feels like
aggressive.
Even the term power there, youknow it's, there's, there's
associated aggression there.
But you know, what I'm hearingyou say is that it's not about.
It's not about like a a win, Iwin, you lose, kind of a thing
you know you're you're talkingabout.
(05:58):
You're talking about somethingthat kind of.
You know it is about elevatingeverybody's power and and my
assumption is that the researchproves out that if everybody
feels empowered and everybodyfeels that they can kind of have
their own voice and retaintheir, their, their own personal
power, then you find much moresuccess in whatever endeavors
(06:22):
you're you're approaching right.
So help me unpack a little bitthe difference between what our
common definition of power isversus what you're talking about
here, which I think they'reslightly kind of different
definitions.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, well, you know what the first thing to
understand is.
I'm not talking about soft,fuzzy power either.
I'm not talking about communitypower and what we generally
associate with empowerment, withthese sort of empathic
leadership.
So there's this.
I think what I call it is likea false dichotomy in society
today.
You're either an alphadominator or you're this
empathic, connected leader.
(06:58):
And so you know.
And the truth is you know,we've seen both types of leaders
succeed.
We've seen both types ofleaders be respected.
In fact, bill Gates is commonlythought of as a dominator and if
you look at the history ofhimself in Microsoft, you know
he was super dominant and hewould shout people down and he
would insult them when they gavebad ideas.
And his employees loved him andthey said that it brought out
(07:21):
the best in them Right.
But other times you get otherpeople, like Harvey Weinstein,
who's like the anathema of aleader, right, and you could
argue he's we would put the samelabel like a dominator on him,
and yet everybody hates him.
And so you know it's not.
It's not the dominance at all,just as it's not the empathy at
all these.
In fact, if you look atresearch on status and also
(07:43):
personal power, they did a lotof personality research and one
of them looked at the big five,and one of the big five traits
is agreeableness, like howpeople-friendly are you and
these things.
And what the research found isthat there is zero correlation
to agreeableness, meaning thatit doesn't matter how warm and
friendly you are.
That's not where your powercomes from, that's not where
(08:03):
other people's gets empoweredfrom.
Mind you, it wasn't a negativecorrelation.
If it was a negativecorrelation, then coldness would
have been powerful, but itwasn't coldness or kindness, it
was that was irrelevant.
It was, it was deeper than that.
So what's an example?
People who are in theirpersonal power.
They have a sense of controlover their environment, so
they're more apt to takeresponsibility, like they
(08:24):
literally experienced that theyalways see an outlet for them to
influence the environment inwhich they're in.
So, for example, in voting,voters who feel powerless
believe their vote doesn't count.
Oh, I'm just one of 400 million, basically Right, but an
empowered person will think myvote counts, like.
It's that sense of like.
I see that my actions have animpact on the environment and as
a result of that conclusion orthat perspective, people then
(08:46):
automatically takeresponsibility.
And I put in a few examples ofsome very famous people, like
Bob Iger.
How did he become the CEO ofDisney?
He was taking responsibilityeven for the failures.
It's our modus operandum to say,hey, yeah, I'll associate with
wins, but I'll distance myselffrom failures.
But in that distancing of ourfailures, we're communicating to
ourselves and to everybody elsethat we're powerless.
(09:07):
Right, that's what blame isLike.
I didn't do it, I wasn't undermy control, somebody else did it
.
It's literally the worst thingyou can tell others, because
they'll respect you less.
And it's the worst thing youcan tell yourself, because
you're saying I didn't have anoption of control, okay, so why
put this in an even biggerpicture?
Right?
So people who are personallyempowered take responsibility
for their environment and, as aresult of taking responsibility,
(09:28):
they then feel like, hey, Ihave impact over my environment.
In fact, the definition weshould have started with this
the definition of personal poweris our belief in our own
capability to create impact.
Our belief in our owncapability to create impact.
So, belief in our owncapability to create impact, so
it's a personal belief we have.
That's why it's not competitive, but it's a belief that's
(09:49):
unconscious and and we can'tjust like, affirm it into
existence.
It doesn't.
The unconscious doesn't workthat way.
The unconscious is watching our, our, our behavior, and so when
we, when we take responsibility, we begin to communicate to our
subconscious.
Oh, so, when we takeresponsibility, we begin to
(10:18):
communicate to our subconscious.
Oh, I have power over this.
And so we see outlets of actualpower.
And now what's interesting isbecause people who are
personally powerful won't letthem get away with that blame.
They'll hold those peopleaccountable.
So holding others accountableis a natural result of also
being empowered, and when youhold others accountable, you
break their illusion thatthey're powerless, right?
So it's really uncomfortable tobe held accountable, but it's
(10:38):
also very empowering to be heldaccountable, because at once you
have to face your own, whateveryou did wrong, but at the
second time you also are forcedto confront the fact that you
actually can do something aboutit that's fascinating, um, you
know it's.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
It's interesting too because I, I do think certainly,
I would say certainly, earlierin my career I fell into this
trap of like the kind of thelikability thing and like being
warm, right, and like that's.
You know, I think I, you know,in my, in my youth, I must took
that for like being able to be,to build like effective
(11:16):
relationships we all do, right,you know, because it's like, oh,
that's what I'm supposed to act, this way, I'm supposed to be
like, you know, a certain wayfor people to like me and that's
going to actually give me somelevel of like relational power.
But the reality is like, likeit, it's so much deeper than
that and if it's hollow, peoplewill figure it out, right, it's
(11:38):
almost like I'm almost theopposite end of the spectrum now
, where I'm kind of like, eh,take it or leave it, I don't
really care, but I'm going to,you know, kind of retain my own
integrity and, and you know, I,you know, and in general, that's
, that's worked out for me, um,but it's, but it's also caused
more conflict, right, and, andyou know, I think, where I
(11:58):
probably would have gone, gonewith the flow, or, or, you know,
been been Mr Nice Guy or notsaid anything.
Now I would kind of raise myhand and say, well, wait a
minute time out.
This doesn't seem right to me.
I think we need to go thinkabout this decision a little
differently.
Or I think you've got the readwrong here and we're operating
(12:19):
off assumption versus fact, orwhatever the scenario is, and in
general people might be pissedinitially but ultimately realize
, oh it's, this was a good thing.
And so I want to talk aboutthis a little bit, because I
think I, I think this is this isnot distinctly a male, female
thing.
(12:39):
But I think a lot of times weget into this like this nice and
you hear the term nice guysfinish last.
But I think it's broader thanthat.
I think it's like a societal,cultural thing where sometimes
nice people get trampled on.
So how can we, in the contextof what we're talking about here
, this personal power, how canwe kind of spot that, be aware
(13:03):
of that and for ourselves, makesure that we're not falling into
this trap of being so agreeablethat people trample all over?
Speaker 2 (13:10):
us.
It's both genders right, it'snice guys finish last.
But of course, there's thiswhole myth of leading with
likability and the pressure thatwomen face to be balancing both
assertion with being nice,essentially right.
And again, I just want to pointout the research in both
personal power and status statusbeing your position, informal
position within a hierarchy, thehierarchy of respect, that
(13:33):
agreeableness, being nice, haszero correlation, like it
literally does not matter how,not how cold or kind you are.
That's not the factor by whichpeople are evaluating you, even
though we tend to see it thatway because we can't see deeper.
And this is where the researchhas really helped.
So, when we look at this dynamic, I think that if you were to
(13:54):
separate a powerful person froma powerless person, if I were
just to simplify it in like themost basic definition
oversimplification maybe itwould be that powerful people
are focused on their own goals.
Powerless people are focused onthe opinions of others.
So powerless people are focusedon their own goals.
Powerless people reallyessentially want to be liked by
others.
They care about the evaluationof others and, as a result of
(14:16):
caring about that evaluation, webury our opinions right.
Sometimes we be nice, we rollover, sometimes we'd even get
defensive.
When we react and we lash outat people, that's also showing
insecurity.
Sometimes we're gettingdefensive because we care about
their opinion.
If we didn't care, it wouldn'teven bother us.
(14:37):
Whatever it's like having a dogbark at us.
There's a lot of ways we react,but anyway, I think that's
important to keep in mind is forpeople like you and me, who
care about others and care aboutour team, that value is our
goal, that's our value, and sowe know when it's coming from
(14:59):
the inside out versus when we'redoing it out of fear.
Fear is really the ultimatedriver of a people pleaser.
We use that word negatively andwe use that word negatively.
And so if we're afraid of whatothers think about us, if we're
insecure, we're going to act ina way that we're telling
ourselves we're being nice andwe're telling ourselves we're
being people, people, people,persons.
(15:21):
But we're really not.
We're really not.
We're manipulating.
Maybe you could even say incontext and can you imagine
being in a relationship with aspouse, for example, who likes
you because they're afraid ofyou or because they care about
your opinion in an insecure way,versus a spouse that loves you
(15:42):
because they're coming fromtheir heart and they're just
expressing their love for you.
It's so obvious inrelationships that we want the
type of people who come from theinside out, not from the
outside in, and that's andthat's really the big difference
between being a likable person,being somebody who values
others.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Yeah, I think it's it's, it's, it's fascinating and
I think some of it's just, youknow, kind of growing up and
becoming more mature, that youknow.
I think you start off with thisassumption that people who
appear to be, you know,accomplished but are hollow, are
(16:24):
kind of aspirational people tobe like.
And then the older you get,you're like oh, there's nothing
behind the curtain.
You know, it's almost like theWizard of Oz.
Now I'm in a wicked you knowthing because my girls are like
singing wicked.
It's like the Wizard of Oz,right, it's like I've got this
all powerful wizard and it'sjust some dude that's just
trying to, you know, just tryingto fake it until he makes it
and it all comes crashing down.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
And you know what's fascinating.
I just want to add, you know,like you mentioned, like okay,
well then, what can we do aboutthis?
Right, this is, you'reabsolutely right, and it is
hollow, and here's what we cando about it.
We're afraid.
Everybody wants to be part of agroup.
We're afraid sometimes to standup for what we believe and we
want to be likable.
We're because we think we'reactually going to.
(17:13):
If we're not liked, things aregoing to go sideways or bad for
us or whatever.
The research is super clear whenyou come in with boundaries
everybody knows that's importantto have boundaries, but when
you come in with boundaries,people respect you more and the
relationship actually becomeshealthier.
So we could you know, we couldalways talk about boundaries
more, but I think that'ssomething that people keep in
mind is it's again, it's notabout likability or dominance.
(17:35):
It's about certain deeperbehaviors, and one of those
behaviors is the self-respectthat when you put up your
boundaries, people might getupset when they run your
boundaries, but but then they'regoing to respect you more and
the relationship is going to getactually stronger yeah so
nothing it's it's, it's aninteresting, it's like an
interesting reframing of of allof this.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
I I want to circle back to something you said,
because I think, I think youhear a lot about like
manifesting and you know, know,like, like like giving yourself
a pep talk or like tellingyourself you know, I've got
power, I'm powerful, I can dothis, you know.
Or like say it in front of themirror and and you know you
(18:19):
mentioned, you can't just affirmit into existence, right, it's,
it's really behavioral and I,and I think but I do think, a
lot of it comes down to tomindset.
So, you know, for those of usthat are maybe trying to drive
some changes or maybe we aredoing work with therapy or
(18:42):
meditation and that sort ofthing, how should we be thinking
about this?
As opposed to just likerepeating affirmations and
hoping for the best?
What are some steps that we canactually start to take to kind
of reframe how we think aboutour own personal power and
likability versus actually, youknow, being a personally
(19:05):
powerful person?
Speaker 2 (19:07):
You mentioned mindset .
Well, mindset, you'reabsolutely right.
Mindset is the crucial factorin personal power, and often,
though, what people areaffirming is their affirming
capability, and that doesn'tnecessarily work If you're out
of your power.
Research suggests you're out ofyour power and your affirm
capability has no impact becauseyou don't take yourself
seriously.
So, like you know, becauseyou're focused on other people's
opinions.
So what you can do is you canaffirm you can come into
(19:32):
alignment with yourself.
So, for example, we talkedabout the very simplified
definition of personal power isa person who's focused on their
own goals, and what research hasfound is that one of the
simplest things you can do is,20 minutes before high stakes
situation, sit down with a listof values, pick out your top
three, let's say, and then, ofthat top three, pick out the top
(19:55):
one value.
This is the most importantvalue to me.
You talk about living purposely,for example, and just write for
four minutes why this value isimportant to you personally not
for the situation, necessarilyjust for you and that plugs you
back into yourself and you comeinto a line with yourself, doing
nothing else.
Research suggests, if you walkinto a high stakes situation,
you're going to, you're going toknock it out of the ballpark
like a power prime, just likethat.
(20:16):
They did this before peoplecame into interviews, 20 minutes
before an interview.
If you prime yourself withpersonal power, you're 81
percent more likely to get hired.
Doing nothing else, it's likeit almost doubles your chance.
So it's about mindset, and oneof the ways you can really get
that mindset, boost that mindsetin yourself, is to take a few
minutes pause and reflect onyour values and your purpose and
(20:39):
this is going to fade and thenyou just do it again and do it
again, and that's how you stayaligned.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think there's also.
I would assume there's probablysomething to be said for that
type of a process.
I'm guessing that I'm headingin the right direction here.
It's also about making surethat you're prioritizing your
values so that you're notletting other people drive your
(21:07):
priorities or the things thatmatter to you, so that you're
not saying yes to everything andthen letting everything else
fall by the wayside.
Am I onto?
Am I onto something there?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
They did some research into workplace courage,
like what causes people to bewhistleblowers.
You know, like Edward Snowden,how did he become a
whistleblower?
Um, you know.
And these people who, whoreally stand up, and you know
Enron case.
Why?
Why did people come forward inthis stuff when they faced huge
backlash?
And the research found workplacecourage depends on two, but
basically three factors, and thefirst was every person who
(21:39):
acted courageously.
Number one is they tookresponsibility for what was
happening.
They asked themselves the firstquestion is this my
responsibility?
And those who said, yes, thisis my responsibility, that
mediated courageous action.
That was the real, that was theroot cause of it.
People who said it's not myresponsibility.
Obviously, they're not going todo anything.
But what was fascinating isthis wasn't just like, hey, this
(22:00):
is my formal responsibility.
A lot of the people they had inthe research study.
They just when those people askthemselves oh, you know, the
people who took courageousaction, is this my
responsibility?
Often, what they translatedthat to is am I in a position to
be able to do something aboutthis right now?
Not, is this my role, but can Iactually do something in this
(22:22):
moment?
And they all said yes, thosewho took courageous action.
They took responsibility.
So then, after they tookresponsibility, they asked
themselves one more questionbefore they actually took
courageous action.
And the second question isshould I act?
So then, after they tookresponsibility, they asked
himself one more question beforethey actually took courageous
action.
And the second question isshould I act?
You know that really broke downinto two categories those who
did versus those who didn't.
Those who didn't takecourageous action.
(22:43):
They basically they looked atthe environment, they looked at,
they assessed the threats.
Right, people are out of theirpower.
They're really externallyfocused.
So they're more.
They let fear guide them more.
So, of course, anytime you'retaking courageous action,
there's a threat on the external, otherwise it wouldn't be
courage.
But those who said I should,should I act?
They looked outward and theyanalyzed the threats and they're
like you know, no fear wastheir guiding factor.
(23:05):
Those who took courageousaction, what they did is they
looked inward instead of outwardand they said, okay, is this
aligned with my values or not?
And when they said, okay, thisis not right and I feel this is
not right.
Right, their eyes were pointedinward.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
That then led them to take the action, yeah, so I
think this all to me, it reallymakes a whole lot of sense.
It also, I think, when youreflect on people that are
really successful, I thinkalmost every single one of them,
(23:45):
you could say, whether you likethem or not, they do that, they
do that right, like there isalmost a fanaticism to their
personal you know objectives attimes and I think it's really
kind of it's a fascinating wayto kind of think about it.
(24:08):
So, but we still like to beliked right, like it's still
like it's still like nice to be,to be likable Right, and I
think and I think it's it can bereally uncomfortable for people
who who maybe, maybe, strugglewith that.
So so how do we start?
(24:29):
Small, like, like, where wouldyou recommend that we kind of
like reflect on our own actionsand figure out okay, where am I
maybe too much of a peoplepleaser or maybe stepping out of
my power, being more externallyfocused versus internally
focused on how I think aboutthis?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
you know, I spoke with a uh, a city council member
, um, and I was asking her she'dbeen reelected.
She was totally just out ofnowhere.
She had gotten elected, she wasjust a normal, normal mom and
uh, and she wanted to make adifference and somehow she ended
up doing it, with a lot of work.
Anyway, she got reelected a fewtimes, even though there was a
(25:12):
lot of money against her fromthe political powers that be,
and um and her.
I asked her what's herphilosophy?
I loved that.
I asked this question because Igot such a beautiful answer
from her and she's like you know, because I was asking about
liking and pleasing and stuff,and she's like.
She's like my philosophy is Idon't care if you like me, I'm
(25:32):
here to serve you, right?
I mean, wow, like it's.
That just shows the internaldrive and support of other
people so that's fascinating tome.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
What a what a great answer, because and I've had a
couple guests on the podcastkind of get into this a little
bit where there's almost amisunderstanding about what like
servant leadership means.
Right, you know, it doesn'tmean that you just do what
everybody wants you to do, orkeep everybody happy and smiling
(26:07):
, and you know kumbaya all thetime, but you still, it's more
about having a servant mindsetand and what.
What a distinct differencebetween you.
Know, I, I'm here to serve you,not to be liked by you.
Right, like that's a, that'slike that.
Talk about, yeah, that's like apower, that's like a mic drop
power, move right there for sure.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Um, I think sometimes , as I think parents you might,
you know, recognize, as a parent, your job isn't to make your
kid happy, your job is to makeit Well.
Your job is not to make yourkid like you in the moment,
right, it's to teach them thelessons that's going to make
them the best person they canpossibly be.
That's why I hold theaccountability.
You know like it's a power move.
Like you hold other peopleaccountable, You're in your own
(26:51):
power, you're forcing them to bein their power.
They might hate you in thatmoment, but they're going to
love you.
You know that later on, whenthey see what you've done for
them.
And that's what the beauty aboutthis workplace courage research
was was so many people who,when they, when they stood up
and they spoke against the normand they did that workplace
courage, at first they got likereally serious pushback.
(27:11):
That's what made it like youknow, like like some of their
leaders were like yelling atthem.
Um, there's this one examplewhere they were.
There's a military group infinland and it was like it was
so frosty and they were doingthis multi-day trek and the
medic who's like the youngest,lowest officer in the whole
group, he's like people arestarting to get frostnip, which
is the precondition for right,you're about to get frostbite
(27:32):
and their skin's going to dieand all this stuff.
So he has to go to the majorwho's like this you know the
super head, and he's like he'slike I got to tell them, I got
to tell them, we got to turnaround.
First, he had to make thatchoice.
Like am I going to actually dothis and try to say, hey, we got
to?
And he's like nope, and he justpulled the medical authority,
(27:52):
even though he's like the superjunior officer, anyway.
So they turned around and tookhim two days to get back and he
was saying I'm so glad I did,because people started getting
really bad frostbite on the wayback and they couldn't even
carry their backpacks and stuff.
And he said after they got back, a short time after that,
everybody was obviously theright choice and the major who
was attacking him and beratinghim when he was stepping up into
(28:14):
his power ended up giving him apromotion.
So so when we really stand inour power, in those moments, in
the moment it will beuncomfortable, but in the longer
perspective, a lot of the times, we're actually rewarded, a lot
of the times were actuallyrewarded.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think what a powerfulexample of somebody who
definitely could have taken thequote easy way out but then fast
forward.
If that would have startedhappening and they were still on
the mission and marchingforward and then unable to
complete it and had some sort ofcatastrophic outcome, then
(28:57):
somebody would have beenpointing a finger and going,
well, why didn't you saysomething?
Right?
So it's almost like.
It's almost like doing doingnothing or not saying anything
would have been a catastrophicdecision and probably would have
, you know, probably could havebeen a really bad personal
outcome for that individual andcertainly a horrible outcome for
anybody that had a medicalissue.
(29:18):
So, I think, a great example.
And for the HR professionalsthat are listening, or people
leaders that are listening, Ithink that's a great story to
reflect on.
Is your team getting frostbite?
Great story to reflect on.
You know, is your team gettingfrostbite and are you keeping
quiet when, when there's a youknow, a potentially catastrophic
(29:38):
incident coming up and, and youknow, my, my call to action for
for all of you is um, if, ifyou, if you believe it
internally and you know it's theright thing to do, then it's
more important to be powerfulthan liked.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
It's interesting.
Of course, some people getfired for crossing the managers
and all this stuff.
These cases happen.
People get fired most oftenbecause they're useless.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
I didn't mean to just throw that out there so
casually.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
We've got a lot of mic drops today, people are
hired and fired based on thevalue add that they're perceived
to provide the organization,and when we are not taking
responsibility, we'recommunicating again that we're
not adding value.
And so if you're there and youknow, oh, but it's not my fault,
it's not my fault.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
You're just basically saying I'm not the right person
for this position.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Yeah right, right, I love it.
I's not my fault.
You're just basically sayingI'm not the right person for
this position.
Yeah Right, you know, right, Ilove it and I think that's a
great.
And to those who are afraid theresearch is super clear that
when you stand up and takeresponsibility, even for
failures, or you stand up right,we think all of this because
we're so focused on being liked,we're afraid of anger and
resistance that other peopleshow us.
But the research is super clearthat a lot of these, in the
long run, we get more respect,we're more liked and we're more
(30:59):
likely to get promoted.
When we're doing these things,like standing up, taking
responsibility when things gobad, it doesn't hurt us, even
though it feels like it ishurting us.
It's actually the opposite.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
It might feel hurtful in the moment, but, yeah, yeah,
can you come tell my kids that,by the way, Because this
weekend when my son lost hisphone, he thought I was the
worst person in the world, butwe had a great day after he lost
, after he didn't have his phone.
With that we're going totransition and I'm really
fascinated to hear yourresponses to the Rebel HR
(31:34):
flash-around questions.
Are you ready?
Absolutely All right.
Question number one where do weneed to rebel?
Speaker 2 (31:46):
The metaphysical answer is you need to rebel
against your own fear right.
Rebel against the feelings thatkeep you feeling small.
Rebel against reacting to yourown fears and insecurities.
The most courageous action youcan take is to stand in the face
of your own feelings and choosewhat you know to be right
(32:06):
rather than what you feel to besafe.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
I love it.
Yeah, it's fascinating to me.
So we use the term rebel and,you know, rebel HR, of course,
is a little bit oxymoronic as atitle, but that's really what
we're talking about, like, we'retalking about, you know, being
brave enough to stand up and toown your personal power.
So I, you know, I think I thinkfor, for, for this audience, um
(32:33):
, you know, this is, this isdefinitely a topic to, to dig
into and stand strong in.
So question number two who,yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Because you mentioned HR and you mentioned this and
you know, of course everybodyknows we're in to create culture
change and these things.
But there are times where, ofcourse, we cannot create culture
change because, uh it well it's.
Sometimes it's just a behemoth,you know, it's a mammoth
undertaking.
But also, sometimes theexecutive management is not on
(33:02):
board with what we think is thebest for the organization.
And this is why it's soimportant to empower your
employees, because employeesdon't want to be in an
environment where they feel, youknow, they're disengaged and
all this.
They feel stress, right, andyou're like I want to help you,
right, by changing theorganization.
But an employee will actuallyfeel less stress and more
engaged when they themselves areempowered, regardless of the
environment, right?
Because an employee who'ssaying I'm going to work
somewhere else because of theculture, well, in one sense they
(33:29):
are taking personalresponsibility for their
somewhere else.
And if you begin to helpemployees see that, regardless
of the environment, that theyhave an opportunity, but in
order to do that they have totap into themselves to find that
rather than tap outside into anorganizational change, then you
don't have to feel sorestricted by the behemoth
organization and trying to makechange on a large scale.
(33:51):
If you make it on theindividual scale, that's enough.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Yeah, totally agree, and I, I, I, through the course
of my career, there've been anumber of times where I have
been so incredibly surprised andimpressed when just one, two,
three people do that and the,the, the ripple that's created
is, you know, it's it, itmatters, it really does.
(34:18):
And so, yeah, I, I appreciateyou saying that I totally agree.
Question number two who shouldwe be listening to?
Speaker 2 (34:28):
just that.
That's the answer.
That's the end of your question.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
There you go, I love it, okay, all right.
Um, and then a final questionhow can our listeners connect
with you and learn more?
Just that.
That's the end of your question.
There you go, I love it, okay,all right.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
And then a final question how can our listeners
connect with you and learn moreand get their hands on the book.
Okay, you're going to edit thisbecause I didn't realize.
I thought there was going to bemore to that question, because
I was like, who should peoplelisten to?
You know, my response isobvious People should listen to
themselves.
But how do you do that?
Right, that's not so easy.
Well, first you got to just beself-aware, and I think that the
(34:58):
biggest step anybody can takeyou know, I'm teaching a new
course on personal power here atthe business school at Tulane
and, uh, you know I'm going toteach them all.
We just like, went to the firstweek and we're going to learn
everything about personal powerthere is, but the first step is
awareness and so, like, thefirst lectures were actually
really hard because I'm like,where are you guys not showing
up?
Like, where are you not?
Where are you blaming?
Where are you?
You know, looking outwardrather than inward for the
(35:19):
answers, like it's like thereally uncomfortable stuff.
So the first step to personalpower is self-awareness.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
I love it.
I love it All right.
Last question now.
How can our listeners connectwith you?
I love it All right.
Last question now.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
How can our listeners connect with you?
My website, speakvaluecom.
Of course you can see kind ofwhat I speak on there some of my
books but if you're interestedin the science of personal power
, grab the book on Amazon.
And if this is something youwant to bring into your
organization, I'm happy todeliver workshops.
Or even I can just send youemails and give you some
information on tips you can usewithin your organization.
Absolutely, or even I can justsend you emails and give you
some information on tips you canuse within your organization.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Absolutely so.
The book again the Science ofPersonal Power how to Build
Confidence, create Success andObtain Freedom.
It is available now or booksare sold.
Chris, thank you so much forjoining us and for putting this
out there Really, really greatstuff.
We just scratched the surface,so go get the book and
appreciate your time today,chris Pleasure.
(36:15):
Thank you, kyle.
Thank you All right.
That does it for the Rebel HRpodcast.
Big thank you to our guests.
Follow us on Facebook at RebelHR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR
guy or see our website at rebelhuman resourcescom.
The views and opinionsexpressed by rebel hr podcast
(36:36):
are those of the authors and donot necessarily reflect the
official policy or position ofany of the organizations that we
represent.
No animals were harmed duringthe filming of this podcast.
Baby.
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