January 8, 2025 • 37 mins
Curious about how childcare challenges can secretly wreak havoc on employee retention? Our enlightening conversation with Calli Bakken, founder of WiggleWork, reveals the hidden costs of neglecting corporate childcare solutions and how they affect organizational dynamics. Calli’s journey, from her impactful Disrupt HR talk to founding WiggleWork, unfolds a roadmap for HR professionals aiming to make meaningful change. Learn how embracing imperfection and focusing on long-term goals can transform your HR strategies and offer fresh perspectives on tackling systemic issues.
Ever felt trapped by difficult colleagues or leaders in your workplace? We discuss strategies for keeping your authenticity intact while managing challenging personalities that can stifle team collaboration. Calli and I explore the psychological traps of people-pleasing within HR and the burnout it often brings. This episode shines a light on the importance of staying true to oneself, even in demanding environments, and provides actionable insights into setting firm boundaries to protect your integrity and enhance your professional value.
Empathy and authenticity are more than buzzwords in HR leadership—they're essential. We delve into the necessity of human-centered decision-making, emphasizing the power of authentic connections and data-driven insights to foster a supportive workplace culture. From handling tough situations with empathy to pioneering a people-first mentality, you'll gain inspiration to craft an HR approach that’s both innovative and compassionate. Plus, don't miss our chat about the exciting Disrupt Minneapolis videos and how you can stay connected with the transformational work being done in the HR field.
Rebel HR is a podcast for HR professionals and leaders of people who are ready to make some disruption in the world of work. Please connect to continue the conversation!
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http://www.kyleroed.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-roed/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all
things innovation in thepeople's space.
I'm Kyle Rode.
Let's start the show.
Welcome back, rebel HRcommunity.
We are going to have a funconversation today.
With us we have the one theonly, callie Bakken.
She is the founder ofWiggleWork.
(00:24):
Had the joy of getting tointeract directly with Callie at
Disrupt HR Twin Cities here afew weeks ago and she has
graciously joined us on thepodcast.
Callie, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Thank you so much.
I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Well, we are so incredibly excited to have you.
You know, I think, from mystandpoint, we are kindred
spirits and the belief of whatHR can be, and so my first
question for you is I'd like tounderstand what motivated you to
found your company Wiggle Work.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Yeah, so it's fun and kind of full circle, because it
started out as a Disrupt HRtalk.
Actually, one of the thingsthat I talked about was
corporate child care is thebiggest missed opportunity for
being able to basically createyour own returns in a workforce,
and so I started talking aboutit, found out that a lot of
(01:19):
people aren't doing it becauseit's just too complicated.
People aren't doing it becauseit's just too complicated, and
then I had my own.
I guess I had my own childbefore that, but mostly, seeing
the climate around child care,the fact that I've been on
infant child care lists sinceApril of 2022, and my name isn't
going to come up for anotheryear at least really helped me
(01:41):
see that really someone needs todo something about this, and I
guess it needs to be me.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Oh my gosh.
So we, we're gonna, we're gonnago down the rabbit hole here,
because I think childcare is oneof those areas.
It's like everybody knows it'san issue, but so many of us just
throw our hands up and say,well, yeah, that sucks.
Um, you know great example here.
So, uh, a couple of years ago,uh, I was an HR director at a
(02:07):
manufacturing facility and werealized that we were losing a
significant amount of new hiresevery single month because they
could not figure out thechildcare issue.
Um, to the tune we we calc'd outthe cost of turnover.
It was like $20,000 a monththat it was costing us in
turnover expense because ofdaycare.
And we were like, well, how canwe fix this?
(02:28):
But you know, you start peelingback the layers of the onion
and you realize, well, it's hardto run a daycare.
There's a lot of rules andregulations.
And we put together a coalitionof employers and, thankfully, a
couple of the employers steppedup and and I'll give them a
shout out here UnityPoint Health, one of our local health
(02:48):
systems, actually helped us,found a daycare center called
Cedar Valley Kids that nowbreaks ground in April, but it
took seven years.
It took seven years of doingthis and I think but I think the
reality is we didn't have adriver, like we didn't have
somebody like you who was likedriving the actions on a regular
(03:14):
basis, and we kind oflanguished for a few years,
quite frankly, as a bunch ofemployers that really didn't
know what we were doing, andthankfully we had a coalition
that came together and somecommunity leaders that that
helped us put this thingtogether.
But, um, yeah, good for you for, for, for recognizing this need
and and for addressing it.
So, um, so, as you, as youthink about the um, the work
(03:38):
that you're doing at Wiggleworkand your, your experience in
kind of organizational systemsand what you've labeled as
human-centered progress, how doyou identify where to start?
Because so often I feel likethat's the issue, like we know
(03:59):
there's an issue but we don'tknow where it falls on the level
of priority.
We don't really know where tostart.
We need kind of that helpprioritizing.
How do you approach thatconundrum as kind of that
systems person?
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah, so I've been told that my superpower is being
able to see the end of the book, and how to start that to get
to the end.
Where I struggle is gettingpeople along fast enough to be
able to see the chapters inbetween, and so I think you have
to start by having an end game,right.
(04:33):
If we don't know where we wantto get, how do we possibly pick
a starting point to work towardthat?
And also the idea that it'snever going to be perfect, right
.
But getting started and takingthat action rather than delaying
to your point about takingseven years to get that child
care center in place and readyto break ground we just have to
(04:54):
get started, and it doesn't haveto be the perfect spot.
So I think that flexibility andconfidence in anywhere is
better than nowhere is reallythe best place to start.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Oh my gosh, like I said, kindred spirits, I
couldn't agree more.
Sometimes the most importantaction is that you just take a
step, whether it's the exactperfect step forward or not.
And so, yeah, I want to unpackthis a little bit, because I
think I know we're talkingspecific to, like daycare and
the work that you know, wigglework.
But, like the reality is, I feellike this is so much of HR in
general, because there's so muchof these things that we do that
(05:30):
are they're fairly vague, right, like we have this end goal,
like the end goal might be,we're trying to reduce turnover
by whatever percent, because weknow turnover is expensive and
terrible and we can't train well.
So when every time somebodyleaves, leaves, they get worse
training, the new hire getsworse training, and there's all
these like there's all thesethings we're trying to do at HR,
but so often we're dealing withorganizational decisions that
(05:54):
are very short-sighted.
You know, we might know thatit's a three-year vision to
achieve our goal, but we got tomake the quarterly results right
, or we get this flavor in amonth issue, or you've got to do
this is what's most importantthis month to this leader.
So we go chase that way andthen kind of avoid what we know
is the bigger goal.
So, as you're thinking aboutsystems and you're thinking
(06:17):
about the work that you do, howdo you help that kind of these
people who are to pull in a lotof different directions, where
we've got all these differentpriorities and I've got a team
that maybe doesn't see theforest from the trees or doesn't
see this kind of this enddestination.
How can we help ourorganizations overcome that?
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Help them get out of their own way, simplify their
thoughts with it.
We don't have to have a policyin place before we start
something.
In fact, it's probably betterif we figure out the policy
along the way, because then weknow what we need to have
included in it.
It seems to me like we getcaught and hung up a lot in
semantics, and I get it.
(06:58):
Hr people are perfectionists,they care deeply about people
and they don't want to mess itup.
But often that's where thingsget messed up is we take too
long or we try to have everysingle piece spelled out, and
that's impossible.
People are messy and we have toacknowledge that people are
messy and lead from thatpositioning if we're going to
(07:19):
get anywhere.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Totally.
Yeah, I couldn't agree.
Couldn't agree more.
We probably don't have time totalk about like policies and
like my vitriol for for thispolicy, first approach, but I
couldn't agree.
Like policies have a place,compliance has a place, you know
, like all this stuff does.
It does matter, but it makes nosense to try to build a
structure for a policy when youdon't even know the full picture
(07:42):
of what you're doing, right.
And you don't have to have apolicy when you don't even know
the the full picture of whatyou're doing right.
And you don't have to have apolicy to give direction to
people, right, like that's theother thing, like these are
human beings.
We're messing.
We don't necessarily know, knowthe answers, um so okay.
So for those of us that becauseso I think there's my theory is
there's two camps of hr, right,like there's the, there's like
(08:03):
the, the HR that's like likepolicies are necessary evil.
And then there's like HR that'slike they like to lead with,
like got to have policies andhave everything completely
documented.
You know, and I and I I'm notsaying that one is right or
wrong, but I'm saying thatthere's kind of like, there's a
happy balance.
So, for those that are on thepolicy person side of the coin,
(08:27):
and as you're helping theseorganizations, what's your
approach to help them overcomethat fear or that resistance?
Because there's a lot of usright.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
There's a lot of us in that camp.
I think you have to understandthe drivers behind why they feel
that way.
I think a lot of the peoplethat give HR a bad name are
people who have that thoughtprocess because they're very
type A, they like control, theysaw HR as an opportunity to be
in a position of control and,quite honestly, those are people
that I probably will not workwith if I have a choice, because
(09:05):
fundamentally we disagree aboutwhy we're in the seat that
we're in.
You know, I have always beenunapologetically, employee first
and I know that that's not aneasy seat to sit in and it's
caused a lot of problems for meas an employee.
But ultimately, I care aboutcreating a great experience
(09:26):
where people spend majority oftheir time, and if I'm not
driving an organization in thatdirection, where we can see that
you can have a good employeeexperience and that also limits
your liability from a legalstandpoint, then we're not going
to work well together.
So I don't want to say, like,throw the baby out with the
bathwater.
All of those people should goaway, because of course, we do
(09:49):
have a very structured systemthat we need to follow in a lot
of places.
But I think we have to drivethe conversation in a way that
makes sense, both for who we arefundamentally and what we're
trying to accomplish aspractitioners, and understanding
what are we going to need tobring that person along with us.
And if that person is very,very rule control driven, then
(10:14):
you need to speak that languagetoo, but try to do it in a way
that helps them to understand.
I guess the power from a policystandpoint in building the
people into that process ratherthan being fearful of
consequences when something goesawry.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Right, right, yeah, I know those people.
You know those HR people.
I I mean it just like I can'ttell you.
It takes about two seconds whenI'm interacting with an HR
professional to figure out arethey like, are they somebody I
want to associate with or not.
And so often it's about likeyou can just sense that they
(10:57):
like they love the power, theylove the control, they want to
be in charge, they want to tellpeople what to do, boss them
around.
You know I'm here to protectthe company.
You know I'm not on anyone'sside.
I'm here to enforce the rules.
You know it's like I'm likecool, great, see you later.
I'll talk to you never, right,like it's like these are just
(11:17):
not my people.
There's a lot of them in HR.
I mean, there really are.
They're probably not listeningto this podcast right now, so I
think I can probably speakfreely.
Like you know, don't be an HRasshole.
But I also think the reality isthat's a large part of the
corporate population as well.
Like there's a lot of seniorleaders that are in that exact
(11:40):
headspace and a lot of times, Ithink a lot of the frustrations
I deal with and other HRprofessionals deal with in kind
of the corporate setting is youhave to work with these people
and you have to like find waysto like overcome these kind of
silly approaches.
So, so what?
What advice do you give us whenwe don't have a choice to but
(12:02):
but to work with these people?
And I know you like you're,you're, you're like, like I'm
like sitting here, I'm just likeyou know, hats off, you did it.
You can choose not to work withthose people, but for those of
us that can't, what guidancewould you give us?
Speaker 1 (12:16):
I think you have to lead from authenticity right of
you can be courteous, you canknow your shit better than they
do and you can show them theresults, and that's really all
you can do, right, like youdon't have to try to play a game
(12:38):
against them or try to outpeople, please, because they're
always going to be saying theright thing in front of the
right people, because that's theonly people they care about,
and I don't know, I'm notinterested in playing that game,
but I can still.
I can still interact with youin a way that's respectful,
(12:58):
while placing boundaries inplace, and I think that that's
the boundary piece is reallyreally hard, but that's maybe
the most important piece,because otherwise there's no
shame for them in trying to steparound you or above you.
So you just have to be betterthan them and, honestly, it's
not that hard, because usuallythey're just a yes person and
(13:19):
strategy is always going to winout if you have the skills to be
able to communicate thatstrategy going to HR.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
You know, and we can unpack that.
I know you're a, you know youwent to college for psychology,
so we can unpack like all thepsychological, like trying to
heal, you know, your, your, yourchildhood trauma, wounds,
whatever, like your peoplepleasing because it gave you
accolades when you were a child,et cetera.
But there's a lot of us in HR,right, myself included.
I'm kind of a natural kind ofpeople pleaser, um, but I think
the reality is like if you sayyes too much, if you are just
(14:00):
like a, you're a yes person,eventually people will not come
to you for what you are mostimportant, which is giving
advice, right, helping supportyour team, like being a, you
know, sounding board truedecisions and ideas and thoughts
.
And hey, what do you think theteam's going to think about this
decision?
How does this feel to you?
(14:23):
Those are these kinds of thingsthat, in my opinion, is where we
add value.
So, if you're a yes person oryou're a people pleaser and I
guess the question that I wouldask is a question one of my
mentors asked me a long time agoand to this day it still leaves
a ripple and that is who areyou and what do you stand for,
(14:43):
because if you are just a yesperson, the answer is I don't
know and nothing, so which is amiserable place to be, and I've
been there.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
I think there are people who are interested in
contemplating that question andthere are people who don't care,
and maybe that's thedistinction.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
I like it.
Okay, Paul, that's right.
A little bit more so for thepeople that don't give a shit,
they're just happy to just fillthe role, smile, it fits my
worldview and I can go to workand be miserable and go home and
complain about work and that'sjust the life that I'm okay with
.
Yeah, what do you do?
(15:24):
How do you?
How do you?
How do you drive change inthose organizations?
Speaker 1 (15:27):
So I'll flip that on you a little bit.
I think the ones who aremiserable are the ones who care,
who have to work with thosepeople.
I think those people closetheir eyes and they can go to
bed at night okay, I like that.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yeah, so, the so, the , the, the assholes that don't
give a shit are the ones thatare blissfully ignorant because
they just don't care.
There's, there's comfort inignorance.
There is totally.
Yeah, there's a value in notgiving a shit.
Um so, but for those of us thatcan't not give a shit, what do
(15:58):
we do?
Speaker 1 (16:01):
I think for me, the most freeing thing has been
starting to realize who thosepeople are and that I can't
change them and I'm not going tofight it anymore, which has
also again caused a lot ofproblems for me, which has also
again caused a lot of problemsfor me.
But coming out on the otherside of it now I feel so much
(16:35):
better because I know in my gutI cared for the right reasons
and I'm working toward makingchange for the right reasons
versus just following along withthe status quo, and that's the
most comfort I can take at thispoint, I guess, is that I do
give a shit and that that's agood thing, it's not a bad thing
.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yeah, so I'm fascinated in some of this.
You know some of this researchand I, you know, I certainly
have my own personal opinionsaround it.
But, um and we talked aboutthis a little bit when I in my
disrupt talk where which is thatpeople who are acting outside
of their own integrity andplaying a role at work like
(17:08):
they're on, they're almost likean actor at work or on a team's
call or whatever um, that's justgoing to burn you out, you're
just going to be miserable.
And I think that is a lot ofpeople that really do care, and
that's why we see so muchburnout in HR.
That's why we see a lot ofturnover in HR positions,
(17:29):
because it's people who care andare just looking for help.
And one of the things I want totalk about, like the thread I
want to pull on there, isrelated to some of your work in
human-centered systems, and Iknow that you did, you know
you've done a lot related tokind of employee well-being and
so for those of us that are kindof in that camp where we're a
(17:51):
little bit burned out, we feellike we have to play a role.
We're putting a mask on at workmost of the time.
We feel like we have to play arole.
We're putting a mask on at workmost of the time, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
What guidance would you give us as it relates to,
like how do we, how can we builda system or an environment
where we can thrive, where wecan actually care and not feel
helpless?
That is a big, big question, Imean.
I think you're choosingauthenticity is important, right
?
You know, being able to atleast find ways that you can be
yourself, if it's showing yourtattoos, or you know, taking
(18:33):
that little moment of rebellionto stand up against the weird
thing that someone said thatyou're like, I don't think that
makes sense and you don't haveto be a jerk about it, right?
But like, where are the placesthat we can start to push back
and find other people who arelike us in those organizations?
Because then we can start tobuild our own little pod that
(18:53):
can gain influence and bringothers like us in.
And at one point, at some point, one of those is going to win
out, right?
Either we're going to leavebecause we broke and we want to
go somewhere else, and maybethat was the right choice, but
if we can try to use our powerfor good, find other people who
also feel the same way, at leastthere's comfort in knowing I'm
(19:17):
not crazy.
Other people also care.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah, that kind of reminds me of the Fred Rogers
quote right, like in a crisis,go find the helpers and that'll
help, you see your way through.
Right, like, we do exist.
And I'm a, I'm a big believer,like I'm kind of a.
I'm a, maybe a, you know, anover, uh, an overwhelming
(19:46):
optimist at times, or maybeoverly optimistic at times.
But, you know, the reality is Itruly believe that I think most
people do have good intentions,right?
Um, it's just the way thatthose behaviors and actions
present themselves don'tnecessarily show that, and so I
think so much of it is finding,like, finding your, yeah, you
know, your group, your peoplethat that align with you, the
(20:08):
people that do allow you to kindof be your own weird authentic
self.
And I side note, there are timeswhere you got to mask up, right
, like I think about.
Like, like, every time I haveto fire somebody, it's horrible,
freaking horrible.
And the other piece of adviceone of my mentors gave me was
the minute that it's nothorrible, go find a new job.
(20:29):
Right, like everybody shouldhate terminating people.
That's like, yeah, that'shorrible.
A lot of times you have to puta mask on for that, right, like
you can't let your fullauthentic self show it, you have
to put a little bit of you know.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
It's like parenting right Like you can't.
You have to show confidenceeven when you're not.
You have not met Lisa Hannum, Idon't believe, but she spoke at
Disrupt Minneapolis last yearand talked about welcome to the
table.
We're all terrified and, Ithink, recognizing that
(21:05):
everybody, everybody is justtrying to figure it out and you
don't want to show your chaosLike that's.
I think that that's a skillthat is really important.
So I appreciate you clarifyingthat that authenticity doesn't
mean like, well, I'm a Muppetand everything is not higher.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I will say one of the most, like maybe one of the
more important decisions I madein my career related directly to
this, which was, um, I am goingto be 100% authentic about what
I believe to be true and what Idon't feel like I have enough
information to know, right, andI think that that's that's a
(21:45):
really important distinctionwhere, like I think, a lot of
times in HR, we're trying tofigure out what's going on,
trying to figure out how peopleare feeling, trying to figure
out behaviors.
A lot of times it's like holdinga cloud because you don't
really necessarily know.
Now, that being said, there areways to get reasonably
(22:05):
comfortable that what youbelieve is correct, but at a
certain point you're stilloperating off intuition a lot of
times, right, and that's where,like I think you and I would
agree, like that's where, likehaving the right system in place
really matters, right.
So, as you think about that andyou think about kind of the new
world of work and the work thatyou're doing with organizations
(22:27):
and helping them kind of figureout these human centered
programs, what are some of theseorganizational systems that you
recommend that we invest ourtime and energy kind of figuring
out or building within ourorganizations so we can operate
with the best data that we canget and make sure that we are
(22:47):
making really good, like broad,human centered decisions, as
opposed to listening to, likeyou know, the squeaky wheels
that get the greases and to usethat you know colloquial saying.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, you know the average person isn't going to
tell you what they need, right?
They're going to expect that.
You already understand that,and we need to think that way
about human data as well.
If you're getting your datafrom a survey, you're doing it
wrong because that's only goingto give you a sliver of truth.
Well, there's so much contextbehind any response, given
(23:21):
whether it's a truthful responseor a protective response, and
so I think, recognizing that weprobably have more data
available to us at HR than anyother department has and we
squander it that is one of mybig soapbox of, like you know,
(23:41):
if you're looking at benefitdata, you're looking at 401k
utilization data.
One of my favorite things totell everyone to look at is are
people actually changing theircontributions or their
designations for theirretirement fund?
Get access to that.
There's no way you can't trackthat data down by talking to one
person, probably, and you willlearn so much about the
(24:05):
financial health of your peopleby understanding that If
everyone's putting their 3.5% athire into a target fund and
they never move it ever again,that is not a very financially
savvy group of people andthere's a lot of ways that you
can support them and understandthem more effectively.
Take that same idea into yourhealth data, into your PTO data.
(24:30):
The other one that I get reallycrazy about is you should not
have all of your PTO beingdesignated six months in advance
.
If people don't have theability to say today is not a
good day, I can't come, that isa problem, and you can see that
in the data of when our requestturned in versus when is that
being taken?
(24:50):
So, starting to thinkdifferently about.
Where are we getting our datafrom?
How can we try to poke holes inour data to see if we're on the
right track or if we'refollowing a red herring?
That is all really important.
One of my favorite exercises todo in speaking is trying to
work through an example wherepeople follow their gut right
(25:11):
and people want to just provethat what they think to be true
is what's true.
We don't actively think aboutdisproving what we think is true
to make sure that we know it'strue.
We don't actively think aboutdisproving what we think is true
to make sure that we know it'strue, and so that's a really fun
exercise to do with HR people.
Coming back from an example Idid in 300-level psych classes
to show that we are reallyfallible in how we follow our
(25:33):
gut versus making sure that ourgut is founded in accuracy and
trying to think about itdifferently.
That way, I think the twotheories I get really excited
about one the Dunning-Krugereffect right.
The less we know aboutsomething, the more certain that
we have it all figured out weare.
So when you start to questionthings, you're on the right
track.
(25:53):
That's exactly what you shouldbe doing.
It shows that you know enoughabout that.
And the other is Occam's razorand usually the most simple.
This most simple answer isprobably the most likely answer
and getting out of our own headsto think was this ill intent?
What is going on?
(26:14):
Those things are really reallyimportant, especially when we're
tackling some of those bigissues within the company,
especially if there's any sortof questions about culture and
how people are feeling abouttheir place of work.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Totally, I love it, I love it.
I'm going to take it one stepfurther and say here's the deal
HR professionals listening tothis, or people leaders, or
anybody.
The reality is some of usaren't very good at this,
neither are our teams, and so,like I actually think we have a
mandate and a call to action asHR professionals to make sure
(26:50):
that we broadcast that out toour teams so that they're not
falling prey to theDunning-Kruger effect or
confirmation bias or whateverkind of psychological you know
term you want to place on it.
The reality is we should knowthis stuff, like we should be
the practitioners thatunderstand human behavior better
(27:13):
than anybody else in ourcompany, and we should be the
ones kind of like shouting froma rooftop like wait a minute,
wait a minute, wait a minute.
Don't outsmart your commonsense.
This is way more complicatedthan it needs to be.
The reality is they just told usthey feel like they should be
paid more, and here's the marketdata they should probably be
paid more.
This isn't, you know, thisisn't some grandiose strategic
(27:34):
plan to go.
You know, do whatever right.
They're just literally like weshould probably do this.
And oh, by the way, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, like here's
all the data that supports it,right?
Or, yeah, the fact that thisentire population hasn't
increased their 401kcontributions.
Oh, by the way, I can go see401k loan data.
Oh, wow, we've got 25% of thisspecific group of people that
(27:57):
are taking a 401k loan.
That might be an issue.
We should use that as a leadingindicator that potentially
there's some wage issues that weneed to go take a look at right
, like that's a really valuableproactive hr product.
There's.
There's all these sorts ofthings that we can do and we
should do, but many of us, Ithink, are comfortable just
(28:18):
saying, yeah, this is what it is, it's the way it is and that's
what.
So I want to.
I want to talk about this.
You mentioned this already.
You mentioned being employeefirst.
You know and, and, and you seethis, you see all this stuff out
there.
Right, it was like HR should be.
Hr is neutral, hr works for thecompany.
(28:41):
Hr should be employee first.
Walk me through your theory ofemployee first HR and what that
means for you and why youbelieve that HR should be that.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
If you pay attention to the research, you should know
that that's true.
When we talk about 70 pluspercent of people being
disengaged at work and thebillions of dollars that's
costing us and lost productivity, it only makes sense that
building a system whereemployees are involved and
considered has huge financialreturns to the company, and so I
(29:16):
think we've gotten in thisplace where we think that there
is some us versus them, but it'sreally us and them, and it
always has been.
Especially in a time whenthere's so much distrust of
employees, of employees there'sso much distrust of employers
and whether or not employees areconsidered in the decisions
(29:37):
being made.
The companies that are going towin out are the ones that can
show that it is us together andlead from that place.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Absolutely so.
I recoil, I get pissed when Ihear this argument, because the
answer to all these questions isyes.
The answer is yes.
I am here for the employee.
The answer is yes.
I am here for the company.
The answer is yes.
I'm here to be neutral.
(30:08):
It's situational, right.
Like people are messy, youcan't say I'm totally polarized.
I, I'm totally polarized overhere.
I'm totally polarized over here.
My thesis, my theory, is thatif you are making decisions in
the context of what's right formy employees success, happiness,
engagement, motivation thatwill unequivocally always ripple
(30:34):
positively for the organization.
But the reality of the job issometimes you have to make tough
decisions, right, but again,you still have to make it in the
context of what's the bestthing for the people in my
company.
If you're making decisionsbased on any different context,
you're the wrong freaking job inmy opinion.
But that's just me.
(30:54):
What do I know?
Speaker 1 (30:57):
No, I couldn't agree more.
It's like hearing about masslayoff situations where people
are finding out from a zoom callor they don't even get that
because their computer just getslocked up and that's how
they're finding out.
You know, maybe some of thosepeople are really happy to be
done with your bs and that'sgreat, but at least leave them
feeling like you cared, thatthey were there in the first
place.
(31:17):
And it's not that hard to showthat it's a tough decision.
I think the default in tryingto have that strong face or be
that pillar when it's tough foryou.
I think sometimes we get in ourhead a little bit too much
about what that looks like.
And you can still be concise,thoughtful, and how would I like
(31:41):
this to be handled if I were inthat seat instead, if you're
looking at it from that lens,you can still do the right thing
, even when it's a hard thing todo.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Right, right, I totally agree.
I couldn't agree more and Ithink that, um, I think that
this is a really great place tokind of leave it with people
right, it's, it's, it's goesback to.
In my opinion, it goes back tothat like being authentic to
yourself.
You know, what do you believeto be true in your core?
(32:11):
What is the data support?
Have we eliminated all thebiases?
Are we making the rightdecisions for people?
And then, at the end of the day, how are we actually treating
people?
And and you know, I tell peoplethis all the time they ask, like
, I tell, first of all, I tellthem what my job is and they say
, oh, my god, I wouldn't want toever do that job.
That sounds horrible.
But I tell people everything Ilearned in my job I learned in
kindergarten.
Right, just because something'ssimple doesn't mean it's easy,
(32:32):
um, and so you know, going backto everything I learned in my
job, I learned in kindergarten,right, just because something's
simple doesn't mean it's easy.
And so you know, going back tothe golden rule, going back to
people first, like you know, bekind.
All these things, in my opinion, are what we need to be for our
organization.
So thank you for supportingthat work, and I can't wait to
(32:53):
see what wiggle work turns into.
We're all going to say, yeah,we knew Callie.
We knew Callie when she wasjust starting this thing.
With that being said, Iappreciate that.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
I'm so grateful that there are people like you at the
top of companies, showing whatit can look like.
I think there's a reason whywe're seeing a lot of people
heading up HR in big companiescoming out of other areas and I
know that people get really madabout that the head of sales or
the head of marketing that'sdoing it and it's because they
(33:32):
figured out something that amessage of one hope that HR
doesn't have to be this awfuldoom and gloom, you know, throw
down the hammer sort ofdepartment, but also that people
can rise to the top by having apeople first mentality.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Yeah, yeah, you know we're in, we're in the holiday
season, so for those of you thatcelebrate, you know, be a true
believer, like we do exist.
I did come out of IT andoperations, though, so I can't
like I'm in that camp, althoughI've been in HR for almost 20
years now.
So it's, you know, it's, it's,I think I'm officially an HR
professional.
(34:10):
But yeah, we can, we can makechange.
So with that, callie, this is agreat segue to our Rebel HR
Flashroom.
So I'm fascinated to hear yourresponses.
Question number one where do weneed to rebel?
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Everywhere.
If you're not rebelling orthinking about where change
needs to happen, it probablymeans you're a little too
comfortable.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
I love it.
I love it Be comfortable withdiscomfort, because the minute
you rest on your laurel,something's going to go sideways
.
Question number two who shouldwe be listening to?
Speaker 1 (34:50):
So I'm going to go a little bit off and say there's
lots and lots of amazing peoplein HR and direct HR, supporting
places that I could mention, butI'm going to mention the Brainy
Business because maybe that's aplace that your people haven't
already found, but theintersection between economics
(35:11):
and psychology is a really,really important place for HR
people to be right now and shedoes a really, really great job
introducing introducing HRpeople, I think, to some pretty
cool concepts that can changethe way we think about people
operations.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Yeah, no, I totally agree, and I think I think one
of the most profound things youcan do as HR professional is
expand your aperture to otherdisciplines, because it all ties
together back to human behavior.
So like economics is a greatexample.
I agree.
I find like behavioraleconomics absolutely fascinating
and I find that that informs alot of the work I do as an HR
(35:51):
professional.
So final question how can ourlisteners connect with you,
learn more and find out aboutWigglework?
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yeah, I spend too much time on LinkedIn, so that's
an easy place to find me.
I have not officially announcedWigglework.
I want my website to be pretty,so you know I talk about not
waiting to get started, but Ineed to have something, and so I
will have an officialannouncement linking to my
website all of that kind ofstuff very, very, very soon.
But LinkedIn is the best placeto find me and probably will
(36:21):
continue to be that for a while.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Absolutely.
We'll have a link to that inthe show notes.
Hop on in check it out.
Follow Callie's work.
I know that the videos fromDisrupt Minneapolis are coming
out here in the near future, sokeep an eye open for that.
Thank you so much for spendinga few minutes with us here,
Callie, and thank you forhelping drive change in the
world of HR.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Thank you.
I'm so grateful for the chanceto talk with you and know that
there's more of us out there.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Power Thanks, all right, that does it for the
Rebel HR podcast.
Big thank you to our guests.
Follow us on Facebook at RebelHR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR
guy, or see our website atrebelhumanresourcescom.
The views and opinionsexpressed by Rebel HR podcast
(37:12):
are those of the authors and donot necessarily reflect the
official policy or position ofany of the organizations that we
represent.
No animals were harmed duringthe filming of this podcast.
Baby.
This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all
things innovation in thepeople's space.
I'm Kyle Rode.
Let's start the show.
Welcome back, rebel HRcommunity.
We are going to have a funconversation today.
With us we have the one theonly, callie Bakken.
She is the founder ofWiggleWork.
(00:24):
Had the joy of getting tointeract directly with Callie at
Disrupt HR Twin Cities here afew weeks ago and she has
graciously joined us on thepodcast.
Callie, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Thank you so much.
I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Well, we are so incredibly excited to have you.
You know, I think, from mystandpoint, we are kindred
spirits and the belief of whatHR can be, and so my first
question for you is I'd like tounderstand what motivated you to
found your company Wiggle Work.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Yeah, so it's fun and kind of full circle, because it
started out as a Disrupt HRtalk.
Actually, one of the thingsthat I talked about was
corporate child care is thebiggest missed opportunity for
being able to basically createyour own returns in a workforce,
and so I started talking aboutit, found out that a lot of
(01:19):
people aren't doing it becauseit's just too complicated.
People aren't doing it becauseit's just too complicated, and
then I had my own.
I guess I had my own childbefore that, but mostly, seeing
the climate around child care,the fact that I've been on
infant child care lists sinceApril of 2022, and my name isn't
going to come up for anotheryear at least really helped me
(01:41):
see that really someone needs todo something about this, and I
guess it needs to be me.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Oh my gosh.
So we, we're gonna, we're gonnago down the rabbit hole here,
because I think childcare is oneof those areas.
It's like everybody knows it'san issue, but so many of us just
throw our hands up and say,well, yeah, that sucks.
Um, you know great example here.
So, uh, a couple of years ago,uh, I was an HR director at a
(02:07):
manufacturing facility and werealized that we were losing a
significant amount of new hiresevery single month because they
could not figure out thechildcare issue.
Um, to the tune we we calc'd outthe cost of turnover.
It was like $20,000 a monththat it was costing us in
turnover expense because ofdaycare.
And we were like, well, how canwe fix this?
(02:28):
But you know, you start peelingback the layers of the onion
and you realize, well, it's hardto run a daycare.
There's a lot of rules andregulations.
And we put together a coalitionof employers and, thankfully, a
couple of the employers steppedup and and I'll give them a
shout out here UnityPoint Health, one of our local health
(02:48):
systems, actually helped us,found a daycare center called
Cedar Valley Kids that nowbreaks ground in April, but it
took seven years.
It took seven years of doingthis and I think but I think the
reality is we didn't have adriver, like we didn't have
somebody like you who was likedriving the actions on a regular
(03:14):
basis, and we kind oflanguished for a few years,
quite frankly, as a bunch ofemployers that really didn't
know what we were doing, andthankfully we had a coalition
that came together and somecommunity leaders that that
helped us put this thingtogether.
But, um, yeah, good for you for, for, for recognizing this need
and and for addressing it.
So, um, so, as you, as youthink about the um, the work
(03:38):
that you're doing at Wiggleworkand your, your experience in
kind of organizational systemsand what you've labeled as
human-centered progress, how doyou identify where to start?
Because so often I feel likethat's the issue, like we know
(03:59):
there's an issue but we don'tknow where it falls on the level
of priority.
We don't really know where tostart.
We need kind of that helpprioritizing.
How do you approach thatconundrum as kind of that
systems person?
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah, so I've been told that my superpower is being
able to see the end of the book, and how to start that to get
to the end.
Where I struggle is gettingpeople along fast enough to be
able to see the chapters inbetween, and so I think you have
to start by having an end game,right.
(04:33):
If we don't know where we wantto get, how do we possibly pick
a starting point to work towardthat?
And also the idea that it'snever going to be perfect, right
.
But getting started and takingthat action rather than delaying
to your point about takingseven years to get that child
care center in place and readyto break ground we just have to
(04:54):
get started, and it doesn't haveto be the perfect spot.
So I think that flexibility andconfidence in anywhere is
better than nowhere is reallythe best place to start.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Oh my gosh, like I said, kindred spirits, I
couldn't agree more.
Sometimes the most importantaction is that you just take a
step, whether it's the exactperfect step forward or not.
And so, yeah, I want to unpackthis a little bit, because I
think I know we're talkingspecific to, like daycare and
the work that you know, wigglework.
But, like the reality is, I feellike this is so much of HR in
general, because there's so muchof these things that we do that
(05:30):
are they're fairly vague, right, like we have this end goal,
like the end goal might be,we're trying to reduce turnover
by whatever percent, because weknow turnover is expensive and
terrible and we can't train well.
So when every time somebodyleaves, leaves, they get worse
training, the new hire getsworse training, and there's all
these like there's all thesethings we're trying to do at HR,
but so often we're dealing withorganizational decisions that
(05:54):
are very short-sighted.
You know, we might know thatit's a three-year vision to
achieve our goal, but we got tomake the quarterly results right
, or we get this flavor in amonth issue, or you've got to do
this is what's most importantthis month to this leader.
So we go chase that way andthen kind of avoid what we know
is the bigger goal.
So, as you're thinking aboutsystems and you're thinking
(06:17):
about the work that you do, howdo you help that kind of these
people who are to pull in a lotof different directions, where
we've got all these differentpriorities and I've got a team
that maybe doesn't see theforest from the trees or doesn't
see this kind of this enddestination.
How can we help ourorganizations overcome that?
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Help them get out of their own way, simplify their
thoughts with it.
We don't have to have a policyin place before we start
something.
In fact, it's probably betterif we figure out the policy
along the way, because then weknow what we need to have
included in it.
It seems to me like we getcaught and hung up a lot in
semantics, and I get it.
(06:58):
Hr people are perfectionists,they care deeply about people
and they don't want to mess itup.
But often that's where thingsget messed up is we take too
long or we try to have everysingle piece spelled out, and
that's impossible.
People are messy and we have toacknowledge that people are
messy and lead from thatpositioning if we're going to
(07:19):
get anywhere.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Totally.
Yeah, I couldn't agree.
Couldn't agree more.
We probably don't have time totalk about like policies and
like my vitriol for for thispolicy, first approach, but I
couldn't agree.
Like policies have a place,compliance has a place, you know
, like all this stuff does.
It does matter, but it makes nosense to try to build a
structure for a policy when youdon't even know the full picture
(07:42):
of what you're doing, right.
And you don't have to have apolicy when you don't even know
the the full picture of whatyou're doing right.
And you don't have to have apolicy to give direction to
people, right, like that's theother thing, like these are
human beings.
We're messing.
We don't necessarily know, knowthe answers, um so okay.
So for those of us that becauseso I think there's my theory is
there's two camps of hr, right,like there's the, there's like
(08:03):
the, the HR that's like likepolicies are necessary evil.
And then there's like HR that'slike they like to lead with,
like got to have policies andhave everything completely
documented.
You know, and I and I I'm notsaying that one is right or
wrong, but I'm saying thatthere's kind of like, there's a
happy balance.
So, for those that are on thepolicy person side of the coin,
(08:27):
and as you're helping theseorganizations, what's your
approach to help them overcomethat fear or that resistance?
Because there's a lot of usright.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
There's a lot of us in that camp.
I think you have to understandthe drivers behind why they feel
that way.
I think a lot of the peoplethat give HR a bad name are
people who have that thoughtprocess because they're very
type A, they like control, theysaw HR as an opportunity to be
in a position of control and,quite honestly, those are people
that I probably will not workwith if I have a choice, because
(09:05):
fundamentally we disagree aboutwhy we're in the seat that
we're in.
You know, I have always beenunapologetically, employee first
and I know that that's not aneasy seat to sit in and it's
caused a lot of problems for meas an employee.
But ultimately, I care aboutcreating a great experience
(09:26):
where people spend majority oftheir time, and if I'm not
driving an organization in thatdirection, where we can see that
you can have a good employeeexperience and that also limits
your liability from a legalstandpoint, then we're not going
to work well together.
So I don't want to say, like,throw the baby out with the
bathwater.
All of those people should goaway, because of course, we do
(09:49):
have a very structured systemthat we need to follow in a lot
of places.
But I think we have to drivethe conversation in a way that
makes sense, both for who we arefundamentally and what we're
trying to accomplish aspractitioners, and understanding
what are we going to need tobring that person along with us.
And if that person is very,very rule control driven, then
(10:14):
you need to speak that languagetoo, but try to do it in a way
that helps them to understand.
I guess the power from a policystandpoint in building the
people into that process ratherthan being fearful of
consequences when something goesawry.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Right, right, yeah, I know those people.
You know those HR people.
I I mean it just like I can'ttell you.
It takes about two seconds whenI'm interacting with an HR
professional to figure out arethey like, are they somebody I
want to associate with or not.
And so often it's about likeyou can just sense that they
(10:57):
like they love the power, theylove the control, they want to
be in charge, they want to tellpeople what to do, boss them
around.
You know I'm here to protectthe company.
You know I'm not on anyone'sside.
I'm here to enforce the rules.
You know it's like I'm likecool, great, see you later.
I'll talk to you never, right,like it's like these are just
(11:17):
not my people.
There's a lot of them in HR.
I mean, there really are.
They're probably not listeningto this podcast right now, so I
think I can probably speakfreely.
Like you know, don't be an HRasshole.
But I also think the reality isthat's a large part of the
corporate population as well.
Like there's a lot of seniorleaders that are in that exact
(11:40):
headspace and a lot of times, Ithink a lot of the frustrations
I deal with and other HRprofessionals deal with in kind
of the corporate setting is youhave to work with these people
and you have to like find waysto like overcome these kind of
silly approaches.
So, so what?
What advice do you give us whenwe don't have a choice to but
(12:02):
but to work with these people?
And I know you like you're,you're, you're like, like I'm
like sitting here, I'm just likeyou know, hats off, you did it.
You can choose not to work withthose people, but for those of
us that can't, what guidancewould you give us?
Speaker 1 (12:16):
I think you have to lead from authenticity right of
you can be courteous, you canknow your shit better than they
do and you can show them theresults, and that's really all
you can do, right, like youdon't have to try to play a game
(12:38):
against them or try to outpeople, please, because they're
always going to be saying theright thing in front of the
right people, because that's theonly people they care about,
and I don't know, I'm notinterested in playing that game,
but I can still.
I can still interact with youin a way that's respectful,
(12:58):
while placing boundaries inplace, and I think that that's
the boundary piece is reallyreally hard, but that's maybe
the most important piece,because otherwise there's no
shame for them in trying to steparound you or above you.
So you just have to be betterthan them and, honestly, it's
not that hard, because usuallythey're just a yes person and
(13:19):
strategy is always going to winout if you have the skills to be
able to communicate thatstrategy going to HR.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
You know, and we can unpack that.
I know you're a, you know youwent to college for psychology,
so we can unpack like all thepsychological, like trying to
heal, you know, your, your, yourchildhood trauma, wounds,
whatever, like your peoplepleasing because it gave you
accolades when you were a child,et cetera.
But there's a lot of us in HR,right, myself included.
I'm kind of a natural kind ofpeople pleaser, um, but I think
the reality is like if you sayyes too much, if you are just
(14:00):
like a, you're a yes person,eventually people will not come
to you for what you are mostimportant, which is giving
advice, right, helping supportyour team, like being a, you
know, sounding board truedecisions and ideas and thoughts
.
And hey, what do you think theteam's going to think about this
decision?
How does this feel to you?
(14:23):
Those are these kinds of thingsthat, in my opinion, is where we
add value.
So, if you're a yes person oryou're a people pleaser and I
guess the question that I wouldask is a question one of my
mentors asked me a long time agoand to this day it still leaves
a ripple and that is who areyou and what do you stand for,
(14:43):
because if you are just a yesperson, the answer is I don't
know and nothing, so which is amiserable place to be, and I've
been there.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
I think there are people who are interested in
contemplating that question andthere are people who don't care,
and maybe that's thedistinction.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
I like it.
Okay, Paul, that's right.
A little bit more so for thepeople that don't give a shit,
they're just happy to just fillthe role, smile, it fits my
worldview and I can go to workand be miserable and go home and
complain about work and that'sjust the life that I'm okay with
.
Yeah, what do you do?
(15:24):
How do you?
How do you?
How do you drive change inthose organizations?
Speaker 1 (15:27):
So I'll flip that on you a little bit.
I think the ones who aremiserable are the ones who care,
who have to work with thosepeople.
I think those people closetheir eyes and they can go to
bed at night okay, I like that.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yeah, so, the so, the , the, the assholes that don't
give a shit are the ones thatare blissfully ignorant because
they just don't care.
There's, there's comfort inignorance.
There is totally.
Yeah, there's a value in notgiving a shit.
Um so, but for those of us thatcan't not give a shit, what do
(15:58):
we do?
Speaker 1 (16:01):
I think for me, the most freeing thing has been
starting to realize who thosepeople are and that I can't
change them and I'm not going tofight it anymore, which has
also again caused a lot ofproblems for me, which has also
again caused a lot of problemsfor me.
But coming out on the otherside of it now I feel so much
(16:35):
better because I know in my gutI cared for the right reasons
and I'm working toward makingchange for the right reasons
versus just following along withthe status quo, and that's the
most comfort I can take at thispoint, I guess, is that I do
give a shit and that that's agood thing, it's not a bad thing
.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yeah, so I'm fascinated in some of this.
You know some of this researchand I, you know, I certainly
have my own personal opinionsaround it.
But, um and we talked aboutthis a little bit when I in my
disrupt talk where which is thatpeople who are acting outside
of their own integrity andplaying a role at work like
(17:08):
they're on, they're almost likean actor at work or on a team's
call or whatever um, that's justgoing to burn you out, you're
just going to be miserable.
And I think that is a lot ofpeople that really do care, and
that's why we see so muchburnout in HR.
That's why we see a lot ofturnover in HR positions,
(17:29):
because it's people who care andare just looking for help.
And one of the things I want totalk about, like the thread I
want to pull on there, isrelated to some of your work in
human-centered systems, and Iknow that you did, you know
you've done a lot related tokind of employee well-being and
so for those of us that are kindof in that camp where we're a
(17:51):
little bit burned out, we feellike we have to play a role.
We're putting a mask on at workmost of the time.
We feel like we have to play arole.
We're putting a mask on at workmost of the time, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
What guidance would you give us as it relates to,
like how do we, how can we builda system or an environment
where we can thrive, where wecan actually care and not feel
helpless?
That is a big, big question, Imean.
I think you're choosingauthenticity is important, right
?
You know, being able to atleast find ways that you can be
yourself, if it's showing yourtattoos, or you know, taking
(18:33):
that little moment of rebellionto stand up against the weird
thing that someone said thatyou're like, I don't think that
makes sense and you don't haveto be a jerk about it, right?
But like, where are the placesthat we can start to push back
and find other people who arelike us in those organizations?
Because then we can start tobuild our own little pod that
(18:53):
can gain influence and bringothers like us in.
And at one point, at some point, one of those is going to win
out, right?
Either we're going to leavebecause we broke and we want to
go somewhere else, and maybethat was the right choice, but
if we can try to use our powerfor good, find other people who
also feel the same way, at leastthere's comfort in knowing I'm
(19:17):
not crazy.
Other people also care.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah, that kind of reminds me of the Fred Rogers
quote right, like in a crisis,go find the helpers and that'll
help, you see your way through.
Right, like, we do exist.
And I'm a, I'm a big believer,like I'm kind of a.
I'm a, maybe a, you know, anover, uh, an overwhelming
(19:46):
optimist at times, or maybeoverly optimistic at times.
But, you know, the reality is Itruly believe that I think most
people do have good intentions,right?
Um, it's just the way thatthose behaviors and actions
present themselves don'tnecessarily show that, and so I
think so much of it is finding,like, finding your, yeah, you
know, your group, your peoplethat that align with you, the
(20:08):
people that do allow you to kindof be your own weird authentic
self.
And I side note, there are timeswhere you got to mask up, right
, like I think about.
Like, like, every time I haveto fire somebody, it's horrible,
freaking horrible.
And the other piece of adviceone of my mentors gave me was
the minute that it's nothorrible, go find a new job.
(20:29):
Right, like everybody shouldhate terminating people.
That's like, yeah, that'shorrible.
A lot of times you have to puta mask on for that, right, like
you can't let your fullauthentic self show it, you have
to put a little bit of you know.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
It's like parenting right Like you can't.
You have to show confidenceeven when you're not.
You have not met Lisa Hannum, Idon't believe, but she spoke at
Disrupt Minneapolis last yearand talked about welcome to the
table.
We're all terrified and, Ithink, recognizing that
(21:05):
everybody, everybody is justtrying to figure it out and you
don't want to show your chaosLike that's.
I think that that's a skillthat is really important.
So I appreciate you clarifyingthat that authenticity doesn't
mean like, well, I'm a Muppetand everything is not higher.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I will say one of the most, like maybe one of the
more important decisions I madein my career related directly to
this, which was, um, I am goingto be 100% authentic about what
I believe to be true and what Idon't feel like I have enough
information to know, right, andI think that that's that's a
(21:45):
really important distinctionwhere, like I think, a lot of
times in HR, we're trying tofigure out what's going on,
trying to figure out how peopleare feeling, trying to figure
out behaviors.
A lot of times it's like holdinga cloud because you don't
really necessarily know.
Now, that being said, there areways to get reasonably
(22:05):
comfortable that what youbelieve is correct, but at a
certain point you're stilloperating off intuition a lot of
times, right, and that's where,like I think you and I would
agree, like that's where, likehaving the right system in place
really matters, right.
So, as you think about that andyou think about kind of the new
world of work and the work thatyou're doing with organizations
(22:27):
and helping them kind of figureout these human centered
programs, what are some of theseorganizational systems that you
recommend that we invest ourtime and energy kind of figuring
out or building within ourorganizations so we can operate
with the best data that we canget and make sure that we are
(22:47):
making really good, like broad,human centered decisions, as
opposed to listening to, likeyou know, the squeaky wheels
that get the greases and to usethat you know colloquial saying.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, you know the average person isn't going to
tell you what they need, right?
They're going to expect that.
You already understand that,and we need to think that way
about human data as well.
If you're getting your datafrom a survey, you're doing it
wrong because that's only goingto give you a sliver of truth.
Well, there's so much contextbehind any response, given
(23:21):
whether it's a truthful responseor a protective response, and
so I think, recognizing that weprobably have more data
available to us at HR than anyother department has and we
squander it that is one of mybig soapbox of, like you know,
(23:41):
if you're looking at benefitdata, you're looking at 401k
utilization data.
One of my favorite things totell everyone to look at is are
people actually changing theircontributions or their
designations for theirretirement fund?
Get access to that.
There's no way you can't trackthat data down by talking to one
person, probably, and you willlearn so much about the
(24:05):
financial health of your peopleby understanding that If
everyone's putting their 3.5% athire into a target fund and
they never move it ever again,that is not a very financially
savvy group of people andthere's a lot of ways that you
can support them and understandthem more effectively.
Take that same idea into yourhealth data, into your PTO data.
(24:30):
The other one that I get reallycrazy about is you should not
have all of your PTO beingdesignated six months in advance
.
If people don't have theability to say today is not a
good day, I can't come, that isa problem, and you can see that
in the data of when our requestturned in versus when is that
being taken?
(24:50):
So, starting to thinkdifferently about.
Where are we getting our datafrom?
How can we try to poke holes inour data to see if we're on the
right track or if we'refollowing a red herring?
That is all really important.
One of my favorite exercises todo in speaking is trying to
work through an example wherepeople follow their gut right
(25:11):
and people want to just provethat what they think to be true
is what's true.
We don't actively think aboutdisproving what we think is true
to make sure that we know it'strue.
We don't actively think aboutdisproving what we think is true
to make sure that we know it'strue, and so that's a really fun
exercise to do with HR people.
Coming back from an example Idid in 300-level psych classes
to show that we are reallyfallible in how we follow our
(25:33):
gut versus making sure that ourgut is founded in accuracy and
trying to think about itdifferently.
That way, I think the twotheories I get really excited
about one the Dunning-Krugereffect right.
The less we know aboutsomething, the more certain that
we have it all figured out weare.
So when you start to questionthings, you're on the right
track.
(25:53):
That's exactly what you shouldbe doing.
It shows that you know enoughabout that.
And the other is Occam's razorand usually the most simple.
This most simple answer isprobably the most likely answer
and getting out of our own headsto think was this ill intent?
What is going on?
(26:14):
Those things are really reallyimportant, especially when we're
tackling some of those bigissues within the company,
especially if there's any sortof questions about culture and
how people are feeling abouttheir place of work.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Totally, I love it, I love it.
I'm going to take it one stepfurther and say here's the deal
HR professionals listening tothis, or people leaders, or
anybody.
The reality is some of usaren't very good at this,
neither are our teams, and so,like I actually think we have a
mandate and a call to action asHR professionals to make sure
(26:50):
that we broadcast that out toour teams so that they're not
falling prey to theDunning-Kruger effect or
confirmation bias or whateverkind of psychological you know
term you want to place on it.
The reality is we should knowthis stuff, like we should be
the practitioners thatunderstand human behavior better
(27:13):
than anybody else in ourcompany, and we should be the
ones kind of like shouting froma rooftop like wait a minute,
wait a minute, wait a minute.
Don't outsmart your commonsense.
This is way more complicatedthan it needs to be.
The reality is they just told usthey feel like they should be
paid more, and here's the marketdata they should probably be
paid more.
This isn't, you know, thisisn't some grandiose strategic
(27:34):
plan to go.
You know, do whatever right.
They're just literally like weshould probably do this.
And oh, by the way, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, like here's
all the data that supports it,right?
Or, yeah, the fact that thisentire population hasn't
increased their 401kcontributions.
Oh, by the way, I can go see401k loan data.
Oh, wow, we've got 25% of thisspecific group of people that
(27:57):
are taking a 401k loan.
That might be an issue.
We should use that as a leadingindicator that potentially
there's some wage issues that weneed to go take a look at right
, like that's a really valuableproactive hr product.
There's.
There's all these sorts ofthings that we can do and we
should do, but many of us, Ithink, are comfortable just
(28:18):
saying, yeah, this is what it is, it's the way it is and that's
what.
So I want to.
I want to talk about this.
You mentioned this already.
You mentioned being employeefirst.
You know and, and, and you seethis, you see all this stuff out
there.
Right, it was like HR should be.
Hr is neutral, hr works for thecompany.
(28:41):
Hr should be employee first.
Walk me through your theory ofemployee first HR and what that
means for you and why youbelieve that HR should be that.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
If you pay attention to the research, you should know
that that's true.
When we talk about 70 pluspercent of people being
disengaged at work and thebillions of dollars that's
costing us and lost productivity, it only makes sense that
building a system whereemployees are involved and
considered has huge financialreturns to the company, and so I
(29:16):
think we've gotten in thisplace where we think that there
is some us versus them, but it'sreally us and them, and it
always has been.
Especially in a time whenthere's so much distrust of
employees, of employees there'sso much distrust of employers
and whether or not employees areconsidered in the decisions
(29:37):
being made.
The companies that are going towin out are the ones that can
show that it is us together andlead from that place.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Absolutely so.
I recoil, I get pissed when Ihear this argument, because the
answer to all these questions isyes.
The answer is yes.
I am here for the employee.
The answer is yes.
I am here for the company.
The answer is yes.
I'm here to be neutral.
(30:08):
It's situational, right.
Like people are messy, youcan't say I'm totally polarized.
I, I'm totally polarized overhere.
I'm totally polarized over here.
My thesis, my theory, is thatif you are making decisions in
the context of what's right formy employees success, happiness,
engagement, motivation thatwill unequivocally always ripple
(30:34):
positively for the organization.
But the reality of the job issometimes you have to make tough
decisions, right, but again,you still have to make it in the
context of what's the bestthing for the people in my
company.
If you're making decisionsbased on any different context,
you're the wrong freaking job inmy opinion.
But that's just me.
(30:54):
What do I know?
Speaker 1 (30:57):
No, I couldn't agree more.
It's like hearing about masslayoff situations where people
are finding out from a zoom callor they don't even get that
because their computer just getslocked up and that's how
they're finding out.
You know, maybe some of thosepeople are really happy to be
done with your bs and that'sgreat, but at least leave them
feeling like you cared, thatthey were there in the first
place.
(31:17):
And it's not that hard to showthat it's a tough decision.
I think the default in tryingto have that strong face or be
that pillar when it's tough foryou.
I think sometimes we get in ourhead a little bit too much
about what that looks like.
And you can still be concise,thoughtful, and how would I like
(31:41):
this to be handled if I were inthat seat instead, if you're
looking at it from that lens,you can still do the right thing
, even when it's a hard thing todo.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Right, right, I totally agree.
I couldn't agree more and Ithink that, um, I think that
this is a really great place tokind of leave it with people
right, it's, it's, it's goesback to.
In my opinion, it goes back tothat like being authentic to
yourself.
You know, what do you believeto be true in your core?
(32:11):
What is the data support?
Have we eliminated all thebiases?
Are we making the rightdecisions for people?
And then, at the end of the day, how are we actually treating
people?
And and you know, I tell peoplethis all the time they ask, like
, I tell, first of all, I tellthem what my job is and they say
, oh, my god, I wouldn't want toever do that job.
That sounds horrible.
But I tell people everything Ilearned in my job I learned in
kindergarten.
Right, just because something'ssimple doesn't mean it's easy,
(32:32):
um, and so you know, going backto everything I learned in my
job, I learned in kindergarten,right, just because something's
simple doesn't mean it's easy.
And so you know, going back tothe golden rule, going back to
people first, like you know, bekind.
All these things, in my opinion, are what we need to be for our
organization.
So thank you for supportingthat work, and I can't wait to
(32:53):
see what wiggle work turns into.
We're all going to say, yeah,we knew Callie.
We knew Callie when she wasjust starting this thing.
With that being said, Iappreciate that.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
I'm so grateful that there are people like you at the
top of companies, showing whatit can look like.
I think there's a reason whywe're seeing a lot of people
heading up HR in big companiescoming out of other areas and I
know that people get really madabout that the head of sales or
the head of marketing that'sdoing it and it's because they
(33:32):
figured out something that amessage of one hope that HR
doesn't have to be this awfuldoom and gloom, you know, throw
down the hammer sort ofdepartment, but also that people
can rise to the top by having apeople first mentality.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Yeah, yeah, you know we're in, we're in the holiday
season, so for those of you thatcelebrate, you know, be a true
believer, like we do exist.
I did come out of IT andoperations, though, so I can't
like I'm in that camp, althoughI've been in HR for almost 20
years now.
So it's, you know, it's, it's,I think I'm officially an HR
professional.
(34:10):
But yeah, we can, we can makechange.
So with that, callie, this is agreat segue to our Rebel HR
Flashroom.
So I'm fascinated to hear yourresponses.
Question number one where do weneed to rebel?
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Everywhere.
If you're not rebelling orthinking about where change
needs to happen, it probablymeans you're a little too
comfortable.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
I love it.
I love it Be comfortable withdiscomfort, because the minute
you rest on your laurel,something's going to go sideways
.
Question number two who shouldwe be listening to?
Speaker 1 (34:50):
So I'm going to go a little bit off and say there's
lots and lots of amazing peoplein HR and direct HR, supporting
places that I could mention, butI'm going to mention the Brainy
Business because maybe that's aplace that your people haven't
already found, but theintersection between economics
(35:11):
and psychology is a really,really important place for HR
people to be right now and shedoes a really, really great job
introducing introducing HRpeople, I think, to some pretty
cool concepts that can changethe way we think about people
operations.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Yeah, no, I totally agree, and I think I think one
of the most profound things youcan do as HR professional is
expand your aperture to otherdisciplines, because it all ties
together back to human behavior.
So like economics is a greatexample.
I agree.
I find like behavioraleconomics absolutely fascinating
and I find that that informs alot of the work I do as an HR
(35:51):
professional.
So final question how can ourlisteners connect with you,
learn more and find out aboutWigglework?
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yeah, I spend too much time on LinkedIn, so that's
an easy place to find me.
I have not officially announcedWigglework.
I want my website to be pretty,so you know I talk about not
waiting to get started, but Ineed to have something, and so I
will have an officialannouncement linking to my
website all of that kind ofstuff very, very, very soon.
But LinkedIn is the best placeto find me and probably will
(36:21):
continue to be that for a while.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Absolutely.
We'll have a link to that inthe show notes.
Hop on in check it out.
Follow Callie's work.
I know that the videos fromDisrupt Minneapolis are coming
out here in the near future, sokeep an eye open for that.
Thank you so much for spendinga few minutes with us here,
Callie, and thank you forhelping drive change in the
world of HR.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Thank you.
I'm so grateful for the chanceto talk with you and know that
there's more of us out there.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Power Thanks, all right, that does it for the
Rebel HR podcast.
Big thank you to our guests.
Follow us on Facebook at RebelHR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR
guy, or see our website atrebelhumanresourcescom.
The views and opinionsexpressed by Rebel HR podcast
(37:12):
are those of the authors and donot necessarily reflect the
official policy or position ofany of the organizations that we
represent.
No animals were harmed duringthe filming of this podcast.
Baby.
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