December 27, 2023 • 41 mins
What if work-life balance isn't a balancing act at all? Join us as we enter the enlightening world of Zach White, the brains behind Oasis of Courage and the Happy Engineer Podcast. Zach's personal journey from traditional engineering to a more fulfilled lifestyle as an entrepreneur is nothing short of inspiring. He confronted the harsh reality of work-life imbalance, navigating through burnout, a failed marriage, and eventual self-discovery. Through coaching and personal development, he found a new way to view life, which led him to create Oasis of Courage.
Want a recipe for true life balance? It's not about dividing your life into work and personal like two sides of a scale or slices of a pie. Instead, Zach urges us to view life in its entirety. Forget the common misconceptions about segmenting your life into parts. Instead, focus on living a life that's aligned with your core values and vision in each moment. Along with dissecting work-life balance, we also touch on the empowering concept of radical responsibility. It's all about seizing control of your life and finding your own source of joy.
Dive into the power of confidence with Zach as he shares his insights on how to harness this essential emotion. He uncovers the astonishing truth that our minds can't distinguish between real experiences and intensely imagined ones. This episode wraps up with a discussion on Zach's projects - Oasis of Courage and the Happy Engineer Podcast - and the profound impact they're making on people's perception of work-life balance and holistic fulfillment. This episode is a beautiful reminder that your journey to happiness in work and life requires courage, confidence, and a fresh perspective on balance. Join us and discover the keys to your balance and fulfilment.
Rebel HR is a podcast for HR professionals and leaders of people who are ready to make some disruption in the world of work. Please connect to continue the conversation!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
This is the Rebel HR Podcast, the podcast about all
things innovation in thepeople's space.
I'm Kyle Rode.
Let's start the show.
Welcome back, HR Rebels.
This is going to be a fun showWith us.
We have the founder and CEO ofOasis of Courage, Zach White.
(00:24):
He is also a fellow podcasterand host of the Happy Engineer
Podcast.
We're going to be talking allabout how we can be happy at
work today, Zach, welcome to theshow.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Kyle, it's awesome to be here.
I'm happy to be here.
This is going to be amazing.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I am also happy to be here.
I'm happy to meet a fellowpodcaster.
I really appreciate theopportunity to meet people who
are working towards a similarmission and passion, which is
how to help people thrive atwork.
Zach, I want to welcome you tothe podcast.
(01:05):
I'm curious if you can justtake a moment to just give us a
little bit of background on whatprompted you to start the Happy
Engineer Podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
You got to back up to my career days to understand
why I'm a podcaster.
Now I am an engineer.
I have my mechanicalengineering degree from Purdue
University.
I got my master's in mechanicalengineering at the University
of Michigan.
So many engineers.
I got to work and I wanted towork hard, wanted to get
(01:37):
promoted, wanted to besuccessful and managed to tackle
that problem in all the wrongways.
That led to a really difficultburnout, a divorce, some period
of depression and embarrassmentin my career and really as a
lone wolf hero mentality kind ofperson, I struggled to figure
(01:59):
out a way to create that successat work that I wanted while
actually experiencingfulfillment and happiness in my
life.
It just wasn't working.
The journey of discovery likehow do you solve this problem?
How do you create success andfulfillment?
How do you move up the careerladder without burning out and
hating the process?
(02:19):
That led me to hiring coaches,doing tons of personal
development and things outsideof the engineering disciplines
to discover who I am and what Ireally want and how to live and
not just how to work, and thosethings ultimately became a
sounding board for so many of mymentees and other people.
(02:41):
They asked me these questions,like Zach, we saw this huge
turnaround in your life from Ato B and you're so happy now
what changed?
And, as an engineer, Inaturally started documenting
all of this, creating thesystems and the tools and the
strategies and all the ways thatit was working for me so I
could share it.
And there was a point in 2019,kyle where my career was
(03:02):
actually going really, reallywell, but I had this sense of
calling in my life.
There's so many engineers whoare going down the road that I
went down where I failed and I'dlove the opportunity to give
back and support these engineersand help them and coach them.
So I quit my job.
In the middle of a rising,successful career path started
(03:25):
Oasis of Courage, my coachingorganization aiming at that
engineering and technical talentto say, look, I can help you
get the thing we all wanted.
Let's go get the promotions andthe paychecks and the titles and
the success and thesignificance and yep, that's all
good, but let's learn how to doit in a way where you can enjoy
the process, you can love yourlife and be happy now, not one
(03:48):
day when and I would do it againin a heartbeat Hardest thing
I've ever done, way harder thanengineering.
For me, engineering camenaturally.
This was very difficult, butthere's so many people who need
it and it's been amazing.
So the happy engineer podcastwas born out of that
conversation, and here we aretoday.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Absolutely.
So I'm taking notes here andI'm like, oh okay, and I'm
checking the boxes, I'm like,yep, I had that in my life.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yep, I had that in my section.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
And then a Boilermaker, a Wolverine you're
talking to a Hawkeye, so we'vealso got a little bit of a Big
10 thing going on here foranybody outside the US Could be
worse.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
At least you're a Hawkeye, you're not an Ohio
State buck.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I am not a buck.
I am not a buck If anybodythat's totally lost.
Right now.
These are NCAA conferencerivals, so anyway, we're like
friendly rivals.
The reality is especiallyBoilermakers and Hawkeyes.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
It's kind of like common enemies is what we have.
Yeah, common enemies.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
I got a location in Crawfordsville, indiana.
We'll high five on the way.
That's all good, but I do thinkyour story really resonated with
me and I think as an individualwho was wired very similarly,
where it's like you know what Iwas always raised you just buck
(05:16):
up, pull yourself up by yourbootstraps, you muscle through
it and you just power throughuntil you achieve your goal.
And the reality is that is aperfect recipe for burnout and
you really can't do it alone.
The reality is, if you try,you're going to be real lonely
and probably pretty miserable bythe time you reach your
(05:40):
destination, and isn't that notthe goal?
So I hear you, man, and I'mkind of right here in the
foxhole with you.
So, first of all, I think,recognition for recognizing that
and for making that reallydifficult decision in 2019 to
(06:02):
step out and really pursue thattruly.
As you jumped into that and asyou were kind of working through
the realization and theevolution of your career, what
were some of the things that youdidn't expect that really
surprised you as you starteddown a different path than you
(06:26):
had always assumed you shouldwalk down.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
The first and most humbling surprise, frankly, Kyle
, was that, being in smallbusiness entrepreneurship, going
out on my own, the idea thatsales and marketing would be so
freaking hard was a huge shock.
I was an engineer and I workedinside of a Fortune 200
(06:55):
organization.
I had lots of reasons tobelieve that the work that I was
moving into had huge demand,that there were tens of
thousands, if not hundreds ofthousands, of engineers around
the world who would resonatewith the message that should be
easy to find these people andhelp them.
The truth is, helping them oncethey understand and commit to
(07:17):
the process, is actually prettyeasy.
Being someone to that point ofrecognizing they have a huge
problem being open to possiblesolutions that are, frankly,
especially for engineers, hardto measure, hard to quantify, no
real proof that it's going towork, no guarantee at the
(07:38):
beginning that you're going toget an outcome.
Coaching and training andpersonal development.
It's a promise of a betterfuture with no guarantee.
That's a tough sell for anengineer.
There's no y equals f of x whenit comes to coaching.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Where's the proof?
Point Right Exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
You can show them one testimonial or 100 testimonials
, and at the end of the day,they still have to answer for
themselves.
Will this work?
For me, that was the biggestsurprise was you could look an
engineer in the eye.
They could tell you out oftheir own mouth that they're
unhappy, lost, confused, out ofcrossroads, don't know what to
(08:18):
do with their career, passedover for promotion multiple
times, want to make a change.
You have a solution for them,and they will still look right
back at you and say I need tothink about it.
I'm not sure this is for me.
That was a huge challenge for meto overcome Learning how to get
somebody to cross thatthreshold.
And, kyle, there's no smallreason why I named my business
(08:41):
Oasis of Courage, becausedevelopment, coaching, moving
towards your vision for a betterfuture takes courage.
It is not a trivial feat towake up one morning and say I'm
going to make my life differentand better.
Change is scary, change is hard.
It takes courage to do that.
(09:01):
So that was the first thingthat surprised me.
The second thing, though, thatreally was amazing, kyle, is how
quickly someone can create amassive shift in their life if
they do have the courage to getout of their comfort zone.
(09:22):
When you step out of yourcomfort zone and you're in this
new space and you come alivewith this energy to try new
things and be willing to failand step into the unknown boldly
and supported by a communityand a coach around you, I see
clients absolutely radicallychange their life in 90 days or
(09:43):
less, in ways that mostorganizations would kill to be
able to create that level ofengagement and transformation in
their teams.
And it can happen.
Even it shocks me sometimes.
I am the coach, so it's kind offunny.
It's like it takes me back tomy baseball days.
I remember the first time I hita home run and I started
(10:05):
sprinting around the bases andmy coach was laughing.
He's like Zach, slow down, actlike you've been here before.
You know you don't have tosprint.
That's what I'm coaching.
A client will have thesemassive breakthroughs and I feel
like that, sprinting around thebases, like, oh my goodness, I
can't believe this.
It's like, okay, relax, relax,act like you've been here before
(10:25):
, you know act like this is thelevel.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Yeah, that's good.
I love that.
Actually, I love that.
That's a great analogy for it.
It's like you know, yeah,having that presence of like you
expect first of all, you expectthese good things to happen,
you expect to hit the home runright, like there's some power
in that.
But then there's also the.
I think the other thing thatI'm kind of like I'm hearing and
(10:49):
I'm kind of and I'm thinkingthrough is, like you talk about,
you make this transformationalchange and 90 days or less, and
it's like, once the mindsetshifts, once the lifestyle
changes, once the approachchanges, things start to shift.
But it's not about sprintingaround the bases and storing a
home run Now it's more about.
It's about like making that thepermanent change, and then
(11:12):
you're not sprinting, you'rejogging, because you got to keep
this going, the rest of youryou know, the rest of your
career, the rest of your liferight, it's a lifestyle change.
It's not just like a goal whereI hit a home run once, now I'm
done you know, missionaccomplished, it seems exactly
right, let's go home and youknow, never do it again.
That's not what works.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
It's the same for the engineers that I'm working with
.
When they experience thetransformation for themselves,
they'll often have thatsprinting moment, like, oh, this
feels so good.
I'm this awareness or thischange or this action that I
took that got this amazingresult.
I'm so excited.
And for them it's the samething too, like, hey, that's not
a one and done, that's not aflash in the pan for you.
(11:53):
This is now who you are, thisis how you operate, this is an
identity.
So that jogging, calm, grounded, I got this and I will do this
again is a shift they need tomake as well, and so for me, as
the coach part of why it'simportant for me to exhibit that
energy of like Kyla, of courseyou got that result, of course
(12:16):
it feels that good and you'rethat happy at work right now.
That's exactly what we expectedto happen and it's exactly what
you're going to do againtomorrow and the next day and
the next day, and so I set thetone for that as their coach.
And then there on that, you know, of course we want to celebrate
with them.
Don't get me wrong.
We love to celebrate the wins.
But you don't come off thatmountaintop back to the valley.
(12:38):
You want to come off that tothis idea of hey, that's your
new normal, that's who you are.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
And that's an important shift.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
That's expected, right, and yeah, I have I don't
know that.
I bought that earlier in mycareer.
Like to me, like I kind of likeyou, like I'm wired to think
like a little bit skeptically,like, yeah, this sounds like
some psycho cat babble, blah,blah, blah, blah, but you know,
the quirk.
Words matter, well, yeah, butreally what matters is the
outcome, kind of thinking asopposed to actually realizing
(13:09):
that.
You know the mindset and thewords that you use with yourself
can matter so much as itrelates to your own individual
happiness and how you approachit.
I do want to ask you aboutsomething that I know that you
talk about and kind of focus on,and that's a lot of times we
talk about these types ofprograms, these approaches like
(13:31):
how are you happy, how do youfind fulfillment and purpose and
passion and all that, and itnever really leads into a
discussion about work-lifebalance.
And you know it's like the mostat this point it's like, well,
naturally we're going to talkabout work-life balance and all
this.
You know how do you fill yourcup and you've got all these.
But you take a little bit of adifferent approach and it's, you
(13:54):
know, one of the points thatyou actually talk about is
forget work-life balance.
So walk us through how we canget here without thinking about
work-life balance.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Let me be a nerd for just a moment.
Kyle, I love it.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Welcome to nerd safe podcasting, because we're all
nerds here.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
This is a safe place to be a nerd.
Okay, so one of the things asan engineer that I'm in love
with is the idea of models, andwe have models for everything.
We have mental models.
We have, you know, programmodels, you know calculations
and mathematical models.
But we model things and yoursubconscious mind uses models
(14:40):
and frameworks and patternrecognition to help make life
easy for you.
You know, I've recognized thisbefore, I've seen a model, this
before, and I'm gonna use thatagain to make my decision faster
, easier, et cetera.
And so models are great.
But here's the kicker.
You know, every model is wrong.
Some are useful.
That's a mantra of engineering,right?
(15:01):
It's very difficult to create aperfect model.
There's always an exception.
There's always some other way.
It could be different.
Right, there's variances.
So models are useful.
They're not always perfect.
But when you say work-lifebalance, your mind
subconsciously creates a model.
And what is it, kyle, like?
When you hear work-life balance, what's the first picture that
comes into your mind?
Speaker 1 (15:23):
For me, it's like I see like a pie chart and I see,
like you know, like segments,right.
So like that's how I envisionit.
So it's like there's a piechart there's work, and then
there's this home, and thenthere's this like dad, and then
there's this, like you know what, you know friends and you know
relationships, and like that'skind of what I envision Totally
totally Super common answer.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
There's two places people generally go Some kind of
chart where I'm allocating allmy time pie chart's a perfect
example and the other one is ascale, like the old fashioned
scale, where it's like on oneside is work and on the other
side is life.
And what is the goal?
Am I trying to make them thesame?
Am I trying to make workheavier than life and make life
(16:05):
heavier than work, like?
So?
In both of those examples wecreate this framework
subconsciously of the goal.
And the goal is what exactlyit's like?
Somehow I need to get this toequal some right answer of work
and life balanced at the rightlevel, like the scale should be
(16:27):
balanced.
But here's the thing, kyle I'venever met a single human who
has a single answer for whatallocation of time or what
balance of work and life is theright answer all the time in
every situation that makes themhappy.
And it just works Like if youhit this static point of your
(16:50):
perfect calendar, then you'llnever have a problem with work
life balance again.
Guess what You're gonna get itto that point you think is
perfect and then next week yourboss is gonna walk in and say
we've got a huge emergency.
I need you to go to the factoryand you gotta travel.
It's not a choice.
Like, you gotta go.
What?
Okay?
Does that mean you just totallyblew up work life balance and
(17:10):
you need to be unhappy all week?
Well, that's a really bad rule.
Like, if you set up those kindof conditions of success around
what work life balance means,you're never going to find this
magical, mythical unicorn placecalled balance.
So I say, forget that.
Like forget the whole notionthat 40 hours at work is what
(17:34):
will make your life perfect, orworking from home is what will
make your work life balanceperfect, or whatever the thing
is.
Let's instead focus on the ideaof balance as an active value.
It's not a point, it's aprocess.
It's not a single answer, it'sselecting the right answer right
(17:58):
now, and because we need tocall it something, I just tell
my clients forget work lifebalance.
Let's focus on whole lifebalance.
You know, the whole idea ofbalance.
I don't even think the word isuseful.
Like I said, it conjures up thewrong model.
But we need to pay attention toyour whole life and be actively
in the present, makingdecisions that are aligned with
(18:22):
your values and your vision.
So today it might make mostsense for you, with your values
and your vision of success, toput in some extra time at work.
Let's do it, let's enjoy it,let's make the most of it, let's
be 100% in and go get theresults.
Tomorrow you might need to tellyour boss no to staying late to
(18:47):
go home and honor your family,that you committed to be at your
daughter's dance recital andyou're gonna be on time and
you're gonna be present therefully, 100%, not on your cell
phone, actually taking picturesand letting your daughter know
she's the most important personin the world tonight.
There isn't a single rightanswer, and the sooner we just
scrap the notion that I need tocreate this thing called
(19:09):
work-life balance and recognizethat I am fully responsible in
every moment to choose what'saligned with my values and
vision, the more we can findfreedom to just love the journey
.
Now, kyle, there's principlesthat are probably true Don't
work 80 hours a week.
Don't neglect people you loved.
Yes, there are things we canall learn from, and I think
(19:32):
people who talk about work-lifebalance mean well.
The intention is really reallygood and there's lots of great
content under the banner ofwork-life balance, but I just
have found that, if I strive forthat, I keep looking for this
point that does not exist.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Absolutely, and I think it's.
I appreciate the way that youapproach that question because I
do think a lot of times, if youtie something to this external
stimulus, so like, yeah, yourboss asking you to work a little
bit longer, or in our worldit's something like, oh, now I
(20:14):
have this employee relationsissue that's gonna keep me here
later on a Friday and well, nowI can't go to happy hour or I
have to miss, those things willhappen.
I mean, it's not a question ofif, it's a question of when and
if.
Every time those things happen.
Now you've got this binary like, well, this is bad or this is
(20:37):
good, this is out of balance.
Now my day is bad.
That's not the best way to live, and I think a lot of it.
You use some words that I wrotedown and I highlighted and you
talked about.
First of all, you talked aboutbeing present and being focused
(20:59):
on the things that matter to you, making sure it hits your
values and your vision, and youuse the word responsible, as in
being personally responsible,and I wanna talk about that a
little bit, because we've talkedabout work-life balance.
We've talked a little bit aboutthe words you use and the
mindset that you have as youlook at finding happiness or joy
(21:24):
in your day to day.
What are the things that weneed to be thinking about, as it
relates to your mindset thatyou have found make people
successful with this goal?
Speaker 2 (21:36):
I remember my coach way back, probably 2015, 2016.
So this was after my burnout,after my divorce.
I was working with a coach oncareer development and he said
to me Zach, you have eithercreated or allowed everything in
(22:00):
your life today.
And I sat there in silencethinking there was going to be
something else coming, likethere's more to that story.
And he was leaving out theaccept this or that, or like
where's all the?
But he just stopped.
I thought to myself, well, holdon, I don't know if I agree
(22:20):
with that.
I didn't.
I didn't ask for this divorce.
I didn't create this burnout.
I didn't want any of thesethings that are, you know, so
hard that I'm working toovercome right now.
Like I didn't create this crap.
What are you kidding me?
Like, yeah, this, this just had.
Like I wanted nothing to dowith being associated as the
creator of these things that Iwas so unhappy with.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Right.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
And Kyle, I can say now I 100% believe that that is
true.
I am fully, radicallyresponsible for everything that
is in my life today.
It doesn't matter how it gothere, it really doesn't.
If somebody dumps their garbageinto your backyard, it doesn't
(23:07):
matter that it wasn't your faultin the sense of you asked for
it or you desired it.
I know a lot of your coachesmight even go so far as to say
there is some subconscious partof you that wanted that problem
to learn something, whatever.
Okay, we won't even have to gothere.
Forget that part.
The fact is, there's garbage inyour backyard.
It's there.
As of this moment, it is yoursto deal with.
(23:31):
You get to choose.
You can clean it up, you cancomplain about it, you can let
it get nastier and smell evenworse day over day over day, or
you can just get out there witha garbage bag and clean up the
mess and deal with it.
You know like it.
What's in your life is yours.
You are responsible.
And so you ask what qualitiescreate happiness and fulfillment
(23:53):
and success?
Absolutely, I believe, aradical responsibility for your
own life experience and what'sin it is a mandatory.
It's mandatory.
People who are happy are notvictims.
People who are happy at workdon't rely on their boss or the
company culture or some you knowbig bonus at the end of the
(24:17):
year to be the thing that makesthem happy.
They don't leave it to chanceor to someone else to fill that
in for them.
They take full responsibilityfor it themselves.
And it's not to say certainthings are not harder than
others to experience positiveemotions.
There are hard things in lifeand it can be tough, but that's
(24:38):
an absolute precursor.
So to fill out the list then,there's really three things that
I start with with all of myclients that I think are
foundational.
If we don't have them, we'regoing to have a very difficult
time creating the results thatthey desire.
Radical responsibility is one.
A growth mindset is number two,in the spirit of the work from
(25:00):
Carol Dweck, who wrote the bookMindset and if you're not
familiar it's a must read.
The growth mindset is essential.
And then number three isconfidence, and there's a lot we
can unpack around what all isrelated to that.
There's a lot of other wordsyou might use, tangential, but
just that ability, that courage,that confidence to step out of
(25:22):
the comfort zone and act, anesteem, you might even call it a
high level of self esteemthat's required in order to face
those risks and failures andkeep moving forward.
So radical responsibility, agrowth mindset and confidence or
courage, those three things tome wow.
If you can get those right, youbecome unstoppable in the
(25:45):
workplace, in your personal life, in relationships.
It's pretty awesome themountains you can move with
those three things.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Absolutely, and I think this is one of those areas
that it makes sense, and Ithink everybody listening to
this is probably like oh yeah,okay, I get it, although One,
because you pushed over how muchyou could do.
You got the ability to lock itproperly.
You know they're the, the, theradical responsibility component
.
I think it's really easy for usto like directionally, agree
(26:17):
right.
So it's like, yeah, absolutely,I'm gonna take.
You know, this is my life, mylife is happening exactly on my
terms.
I'm, you know, I am in controlof my reaction to the
environment that I'm in andthat's it, nothing else.
And Then you get into it andit's just like, oh shit, you
know, like nice, now thishappened and that happened.
That guy cut me off in traffic.
So I'm gonna flip them themiddle finger and scream at them
(26:41):
and, and you know, it'sActually practicing this.
That is the, you know, reallythe game changer and and having
having the actual mindset Setshift is that it's the beginning
, right, and then it's thecontinued behavioral, you know,
actions within that, the kind ofthat frequency, that that, that
really that really matter.
(27:02):
And so I want to talk a littlebit about I want to talk a
little bit about confidence,because you talked about
confidence and I think it's oneof those areas where it's like,
you know, especially in in inour listeners Day, you know it's
it's easy to To kind of losesight of that self-confidence
because we're dealing with somany things that don't have a
(27:23):
clear answer.
Sometimes we second-guessourselves.
You know we're dealing withhuman behavior.
It's messy and sometimes it'sugly and and you know we're just
trying to do the best with withwhat we've got.
So, as it relates to thatself-confidence and really
really being aware and presentand and being in control of our
own Happiness, as opposed toletting others happiness or lack
(27:45):
thereof kind of trickle in,what are those, those key
components of confidence thatyou work with your clients on to
ensure that that sets them upfor success Foundationally, so
that they can continue to havethe sustained happiness?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
in their lives.
It's tough to pick a singlethread to pull because and I'm
sure anyone listening you youthink about confidence and how
we created.
If there was an Easy button forconfidence, I would be way way
wealthier than I am.
I mean you could very bottle andsell confidence.
(28:22):
You'd be the richest person onthe planet.
But here's the thing first.
First thing, for engineers inparticular, is we begin by
addressing well, what?
What is confidence?
What is it?
And a lot of times you ask thatquestion and someone will start
describing what it looks like.
(28:43):
What is confidence?
Well, confidence is when you gointo the presentation Knowing
that you're gonna do well andyou show up with a better
executive presence and yourvoice is more clear and loud.
And you know they describe theoutcome of confidence.
But what confidence is is Anemotion.
(29:06):
It's an emotion, it's an energyin your body, and I mean that
literally.
Emotion, e motion, energy inmotion.
Emotion is a physicalexperience, it's a, it's
something present in yourphysiology, not just in your
mind.
And so when we talk about thatand recognize what is it that
(29:28):
I'm craving here, what is itthat I'm seeking to create?
It's an emotion, it's anexperience and how I show up to
a situation, not about myintellect, not about you know
the outcome of the situation.
It's none of those things Right.
So so when you start there, itcreates a different set of
(29:51):
questions.
It's not about how do I getsmarter.
It's not about how do I getbetter results.
It's about how do I tap into,into the energy that I call
confidence.
How do I get to that place thatI use the word confidence to
describe the feeling that I'mhaving?
(30:11):
I Need to practice getting tothat place, and so it's
sometimes fun to do a littleexercise to people to say well,
you know, are you familiar withwhat it feels like to be angry?
People say, yes, I've beenangry before.
Okay, cool.
Well, if I was to ask you topractice getting angry today,
what would you do to practicethat?
How would you practice anger?
(30:33):
And it's kind of yeah, you'rechocolate.
It's like I have a weirdquestion, right.
Well, I'm like, how would I?
Speaker 1 (30:38):
do that, I'd like, I'd probably hold my breath and
like get my, you know like, liketrying to get my face, you know
like and I love that.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I love that what you're doing, exactly everything
.
I would change my physiologyright, I do some things right,
and maybe I would pull up apicture of a person in the
opposing political party to mind, or I would do something like
I'd start thinking about thesethings that make me angry and I
would get into that headspace.
It's like, okay, exactly.
So now, when was the last timeyou felt really confident?
(31:06):
I want you to do the samethings and let's practice
getting to a place of confidence.
What's something that everytime you do it, you can do it
with total confidence.
Okay, let's go there.
Let's practice feeling it andget familiar with what
confidence feels like.
Like you need to be at home inthe energy of confidence, right.
(31:29):
And then what we'll start to dois some really fun tools where
we'll just say, all right, nowwhat we're going to do is take
it one step further.
I'm going to ask you to go to aplace of confidence and then
we're going to link that to afuture experience in our
visualization.
So you've got a big presentationcoming up.
Rather than rehearsing yourpresentation a hundred more
times and thinking that that'sgoing to make you more confident
(31:51):
, let's just practice beingconfident in the presentation.
But to do that, we need tofirst create the energy of
confidence and then immediatelytransition our vision of our
mind's eye to the place whereI'm going to need it.
And you see, what's so coolabout the mind is it doesn't
actually know the differencebetween a real experience and a
(32:12):
vividly imagined one, andemotions are conditioned
patterns of response to thoughtsand environmental stimuli.
That's all it is.
And when I conditioned myselfto go to a place that I call
confidence, every time I'm inthis place where I need it.
It's no different thanpracticing free throws or
(32:33):
practicing writing the letter Awhen you're a child.
You build the repetition andsuddenly your subconscious mind
says, oh Kyle, I remember this.
This is the place where youshow up with confidence.
I've done this before, right.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Now you've got a neural pathway, and now I?
Speaker 2 (32:47):
got the pathway Exactly, and so this is the
thing you know.
It's like wait, what is thattalking about?
This is crazy.
The whole idea of confidencethat I tell my clients is you
already have it inside you.
You already have the confidencewithin you.
It's not about becoming somenew person.
It's about learning how to bewho you are in the way you need
(33:08):
to be, in the right moment.
And so we start with that kindof foundation, you know.
And then there's other things.
We link together and the threeprinciples we mentioned earlier.
These all feed each other.
When you have a growth mindset,you're not so worried about
winning or losing, success orfailure, because winning is
winning and losing is learning,and learning is winning.
(33:30):
So I always win.
It's like now you start to haveless fear.
And then, if you take radicalresponsibility, you know that it
doesn't matter what the outcomeis, I will step up and do the
next right thing.
And so there's this upwardspiral where it gets easier to
be confident because I'mpracticing it.
Oh, and, by the way, it doesn'tmatter if I fail.
Oh, and, by the way, this is mylife and I'm going to take full
(33:52):
responsibility for it.
I don't care what you thinkLike, let's go.
Those all shift and the tiderises.
It's pretty fun to watch.
It creates this virtuous loopwhere confidence starts to
become your default state.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
I love it All right.
Well, we are coming to the endof our time together here and
I'm fascinated to hear theresponse.
I'm going to be honest with you, this is not exactly where I
expected to end the conversationwith a former engineer from a
Fortune 500 company.
I'm pumped because this is like.
I think this is a reallyinteresting context to think
(34:27):
about this type of thing, and Ialso think that thinking about
this in a way where there's asystematic approach, there's a
model to this, there's actuallya method here, is helpful for
those of us that are trying tofind our way.
So, with that being said, we'regoing to shift gears.
(34:47):
We're going to go into theRebel HR Flash Round, retention
number one.
Where does HR need to rebel?
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Rebellion.
Okay, here's the place.
I got the place.
Kyle HR needs to rebel on theidea of retention.
I'll explain.
Retention is a big deal, Itotally get it.
Turnover is expensive.
Retention is a good indicationof engagement and if people are
loving their jobs and all thesethings, when you focus on
(35:20):
retention, you put yourself intoan energy of seeking to.
I mean literally.
Think about the word retain,Retain.
When was the last time youwanted to be retained in any
other context?
Do you want to be retained atthe airport next time you travel
?
We usually call that detained,but still it's a similar kind of
(35:42):
energy.
It's like I don't want you tobe able to leave, I want to
retain you here.
Well, it's the same kind ofthing like in sales If you're
chasing people, they run away,and if you try to put them in a
cage, all they want to do is getout.
If all you're focused on isretaining people, you're
subconsciously creating anenergy around that objective
(36:06):
that actually creates theopposite response in the
employee.
Every time you say, how can Iretain you, how can I retain you
?
That person is thinking get meout of here, run away.
I don't want to be in a cage.
Nobody wants the goldenhandcuffs, nobody wants to be
stuck.
So here's what I would encourageyou, kind of like we said
(36:26):
forget work-life balance, forgetretention and focus on
actualization.
Now that's the big fancy coachy.
You know psychology word forhelping people to realize their
own goals and dreams, to becomethe version of themselves they
want to become.
If you will just help people toactualize what they want in
(36:50):
life, you will win, becauseeither A they're going to do it
in your company and they'regoing to love it, and they will
be the best employees you'veever had and they'll stick
around.
You'll win at retention as well, or they'll leave because this
isn't the place that they seethemselves living their best
life, and you open the seat upfor somebody who does want to
(37:11):
live their best life at yourcompany.
Now that'll hurt in the shortterm, but you will win in the
long run, and so focus onactualization instead of
retention.
I think you'll win.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
You know, yeah, I heard that in that context.
It's like, yeah, you're notsupposed to retain water, why do
you want to retain employees?
You know what I mean.
It's not, that's good.
Now I'm just trying to figureout what KPI can I put on that
Actualization KPI?
I'm just trying to figure thatone out.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Question number two who should we be listening to?
Speaker 2 (37:44):
I would listen to the people that your employees turn
to when they're unhappy.
And who is that?
You know, right now, in theworld we live in today, it's
just two people that come tomind.
It's therapists and coaches.
The coaching industry hasabsolutely exploded in the last
decade, and the number ofAmericans in particular I've
(38:06):
seen the stats, I don't knowworldwide, but I have to imagine
it's similar who are in someform of psychotherapy right now
is higher than ever.
And yeah, we can blame COVID orwe can blame whatever we want,
but the fact is everybody'sturning to somebody for help and
they're having theconversations that HR wishes.
They could have to understandwhat's really going on, but
(38:28):
nobody's going to have thatconversation with HR.
And so if you want to knowwhat's really happening in the
hearts and minds of youremployees, go listen to the
people who are on the receivingend of those truthful
conversations.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Yeah, and I think it's an important thing.
Maybe a comment too HIPAAnotwithstanding, you should be
offering this to your employeesas well.
If this isn't a component ofyour benefits plan, like
honestly offering them thatoutlet.
If it's not, you give them Anopportunity or an option to go
(39:06):
find somebody else, because someof this is them figuring this
out on their own too, right?
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Yeah, some of this is out of our scope, Absolutely
and just in case somebody'shearing this the wrong way, I'm
not saying go ask your employeestherapist what you talked about
in the session.
That's not the point.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
They're either some compliance, compliance.
People are like, oh, I can't dothat because I hit this guy is
out of control.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Yeah, I'm not saying get, get the real details on the
people.
What I'm saying is these peoplehave a lens on the themes right
, the trends and the types ofproblems and how they approach
solving them and Ways that youcould integrate that into the
workplace.
Absolutely, and there's people.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of research out there too,
from from these professionalsthat I think can can be, you
know, illuminating.
I think there's.
You know he listen up and Ithink you know, you know if
you're not, you know, currently,you know getting help or or
making sure that you have thatoutlet, whether that's a coach
or a therapist, or or, or your,your, your friend group, you
(40:05):
know what have you?
You know just listen, right,listen and learn.
Alright, last, last questionhere opportunity To to give
everybody a handoff.
How can our listeners reach out, connect with you and and how
can they find the podcast andyour services?
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Kyle, thanks for the opportunity and the easiest way.
If anyone wants to know moreabout you know my view on how to
create career success and avoidburnout.
Create this balance we talkedabout in the right way.
The podcast is the easiestplace.
Wherever you're tuned in to therebel HR Podcast, just jump
over, search the happy engineer.
(40:42):
You'll find me there.
Give it a follow and a listen.
I really appreciate that.
All the show notes and links tofind me in depth can be found
around the podcast.
Or If you want to jump out andconnect with me directly, the
website is the happy engineerpodcast Dot-com and you can find
ways to connect with medirectly there.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
Perfect.
We'll have all that information, of course, in the show notes
so you can pop open the podcastplayer.
Just click right in the linkthere.
You know, strongly, stronglyencourage you to check it out.
Zach, it's been an absolutepleasure.
Appreciate all the work thatyou're doing.
I thought I thought some reallygreat content and some things
for us to be be thinking about,and I can't wait to stay
connected here and and now.
You're going forward, so thankyou.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
You're welcome, kyle.
Thanks for having me love thework you're doing.
Keep it up, man.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
All right, that does it for the rebel HR podcast.
Big Thank you to our guests.
Follow us on Facebook at rebelHR podcast, twitter at rebel HR
guy, or see our website at rebelhuman resources Dot-com.
Views and opinions expressed byrebel HR podcast are those of
the authors and do notnecessarily reflect the official
(41:47):
policy or position of Any ofthe organizations that we
represent.
No animals were harmed duringthe filming of this podcast.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Maybe,
This is the Rebel HR Podcast, the podcast about all
things innovation in thepeople's space.
I'm Kyle Rode.
Let's start the show.
Welcome back, HR Rebels.
This is going to be a fun showWith us.
We have the founder and CEO ofOasis of Courage, Zach White.
(00:24):
He is also a fellow podcasterand host of the Happy Engineer
Podcast.
We're going to be talking allabout how we can be happy at
work today, Zach, welcome to theshow.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Kyle, it's awesome to be here.
I'm happy to be here.
This is going to be amazing.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I am also happy to be here.
I'm happy to meet a fellowpodcaster.
I really appreciate theopportunity to meet people who
are working towards a similarmission and passion, which is
how to help people thrive atwork.
Zach, I want to welcome you tothe podcast.
(01:05):
I'm curious if you can justtake a moment to just give us a
little bit of background on whatprompted you to start the Happy
Engineer Podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
You got to back up to my career days to understand
why I'm a podcaster.
Now I am an engineer.
I have my mechanicalengineering degree from Purdue
University.
I got my master's in mechanicalengineering at the University
of Michigan.
So many engineers.
I got to work and I wanted towork hard, wanted to get
(01:37):
promoted, wanted to besuccessful and managed to tackle
that problem in all the wrongways.
That led to a really difficultburnout, a divorce, some period
of depression and embarrassmentin my career and really as a
lone wolf hero mentality kind ofperson, I struggled to figure
(01:59):
out a way to create that successat work that I wanted while
actually experiencingfulfillment and happiness in my
life.
It just wasn't working.
The journey of discovery likehow do you solve this problem?
How do you create success andfulfillment?
How do you move up the careerladder without burning out and
hating the process?
(02:19):
That led me to hiring coaches,doing tons of personal
development and things outsideof the engineering disciplines
to discover who I am and what Ireally want and how to live and
not just how to work, and thosethings ultimately became a
sounding board for so many of mymentees and other people.
(02:41):
They asked me these questions,like Zach, we saw this huge
turnaround in your life from Ato B and you're so happy now
what changed?
And, as an engineer, Inaturally started documenting
all of this, creating thesystems and the tools and the
strategies and all the ways thatit was working for me so I
could share it.
And there was a point in 2019,kyle where my career was
(03:02):
actually going really, reallywell, but I had this sense of
calling in my life.
There's so many engineers whoare going down the road that I
went down where I failed and I'dlove the opportunity to give
back and support these engineersand help them and coach them.
So I quit my job.
In the middle of a rising,successful career path started
(03:25):
Oasis of Courage, my coachingorganization aiming at that
engineering and technical talentto say, look, I can help you
get the thing we all wanted.
Let's go get the promotions andthe paychecks and the titles and
the success and thesignificance and yep, that's all
good, but let's learn how to doit in a way where you can enjoy
the process, you can love yourlife and be happy now, not one
(03:48):
day when and I would do it againin a heartbeat Hardest thing
I've ever done, way harder thanengineering.
For me, engineering camenaturally.
This was very difficult, butthere's so many people who need
it and it's been amazing.
So the happy engineer podcastwas born out of that
conversation, and here we aretoday.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Absolutely.
So I'm taking notes here andI'm like, oh okay, and I'm
checking the boxes, I'm like,yep, I had that in my life.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yep, I had that in my section.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
And then a Boilermaker, a Wolverine you're
talking to a Hawkeye, so we'vealso got a little bit of a Big
10 thing going on here foranybody outside the US Could be
worse.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
At least you're a Hawkeye, you're not an Ohio
State buck.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I am not a buck.
I am not a buck If anybodythat's totally lost.
Right now.
These are NCAA conferencerivals, so anyway, we're like
friendly rivals.
The reality is especiallyBoilermakers and Hawkeyes.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
It's kind of like common enemies is what we have.
Yeah, common enemies.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
I got a location in Crawfordsville, indiana.
We'll high five on the way.
That's all good, but I do thinkyour story really resonated with
me and I think as an individualwho was wired very similarly,
where it's like you know what Iwas always raised you just buck
(05:16):
up, pull yourself up by yourbootstraps, you muscle through
it and you just power throughuntil you achieve your goal.
And the reality is that is aperfect recipe for burnout and
you really can't do it alone.
The reality is, if you try,you're going to be real lonely
and probably pretty miserable bythe time you reach your
(05:40):
destination, and isn't that notthe goal?
So I hear you, man, and I'mkind of right here in the
foxhole with you.
So, first of all, I think,recognition for recognizing that
and for making that reallydifficult decision in 2019 to
(06:02):
step out and really pursue thattruly.
As you jumped into that and asyou were kind of working through
the realization and theevolution of your career, what
were some of the things that youdidn't expect that really
surprised you as you starteddown a different path than you
(06:26):
had always assumed you shouldwalk down.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
The first and most humbling surprise, frankly, Kyle
, was that, being in smallbusiness entrepreneurship, going
out on my own, the idea thatsales and marketing would be so
freaking hard was a huge shock.
I was an engineer and I workedinside of a Fortune 200
(06:55):
organization.
I had lots of reasons tobelieve that the work that I was
moving into had huge demand,that there were tens of
thousands, if not hundreds ofthousands, of engineers around
the world who would resonatewith the message that should be
easy to find these people andhelp them.
The truth is, helping them oncethey understand and commit to
(07:17):
the process, is actually prettyeasy.
Being someone to that point ofrecognizing they have a huge
problem being open to possiblesolutions that are, frankly,
especially for engineers, hardto measure, hard to quantify, no
real proof that it's going towork, no guarantee at the
(07:38):
beginning that you're going toget an outcome.
Coaching and training andpersonal development.
It's a promise of a betterfuture with no guarantee.
That's a tough sell for anengineer.
There's no y equals f of x whenit comes to coaching.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Where's the proof?
Point Right Exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
You can show them one testimonial or 100 testimonials
, and at the end of the day,they still have to answer for
themselves.
Will this work?
For me, that was the biggestsurprise was you could look an
engineer in the eye.
They could tell you out oftheir own mouth that they're
unhappy, lost, confused, out ofcrossroads, don't know what to
(08:18):
do with their career, passedover for promotion multiple
times, want to make a change.
You have a solution for them,and they will still look right
back at you and say I need tothink about it.
I'm not sure this is for me.
That was a huge challenge for meto overcome Learning how to get
somebody to cross thatthreshold.
And, kyle, there's no smallreason why I named my business
(08:41):
Oasis of Courage, becausedevelopment, coaching, moving
towards your vision for a betterfuture takes courage.
It is not a trivial feat towake up one morning and say I'm
going to make my life differentand better.
Change is scary, change is hard.
It takes courage to do that.
(09:01):
So that was the first thingthat surprised me.
The second thing, though, thatreally was amazing, kyle, is how
quickly someone can create amassive shift in their life if
they do have the courage to getout of their comfort zone.
(09:22):
When you step out of yourcomfort zone and you're in this
new space and you come alivewith this energy to try new
things and be willing to failand step into the unknown boldly
and supported by a communityand a coach around you, I see
clients absolutely radicallychange their life in 90 days or
(09:43):
less, in ways that mostorganizations would kill to be
able to create that level ofengagement and transformation in
their teams.
And it can happen.
Even it shocks me sometimes.
I am the coach, so it's kind offunny.
It's like it takes me back tomy baseball days.
I remember the first time I hita home run and I started
(10:05):
sprinting around the bases andmy coach was laughing.
He's like Zach, slow down, actlike you've been here before.
You know you don't have tosprint.
That's what I'm coaching.
A client will have thesemassive breakthroughs and I feel
like that, sprinting around thebases, like, oh my goodness, I
can't believe this.
It's like, okay, relax, relax,act like you've been here before
(10:25):
, you know act like this is thelevel.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Yeah, that's good.
I love that.
Actually, I love that.
That's a great analogy for it.
It's like you know, yeah,having that presence of like you
expect first of all, you expectthese good things to happen,
you expect to hit the home runright, like there's some power
in that.
But then there's also the.
I think the other thing thatI'm kind of like I'm hearing and
(10:49):
I'm kind of and I'm thinkingthrough is, like you talk about,
you make this transformationalchange and 90 days or less, and
it's like, once the mindsetshifts, once the lifestyle
changes, once the approachchanges, things start to shift.
But it's not about sprintingaround the bases and storing a
home run Now it's more about.
It's about like making that thepermanent change, and then
(11:12):
you're not sprinting, you'rejogging, because you got to keep
this going, the rest of youryou know, the rest of your
career, the rest of your liferight, it's a lifestyle change.
It's not just like a goal whereI hit a home run once, now I'm
done you know, missionaccomplished, it seems exactly
right, let's go home and youknow, never do it again.
That's not what works.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
It's the same for the engineers that I'm working with
.
When they experience thetransformation for themselves,
they'll often have thatsprinting moment, like, oh, this
feels so good.
I'm this awareness or thischange or this action that I
took that got this amazingresult.
I'm so excited.
And for them it's the samething too, like, hey, that's not
a one and done, that's not aflash in the pan for you.
(11:53):
This is now who you are, thisis how you operate, this is an
identity.
So that jogging, calm, grounded, I got this and I will do this
again is a shift they need tomake as well, and so for me, as
the coach part of why it'simportant for me to exhibit that
energy of like Kyla, of courseyou got that result, of course
(12:16):
it feels that good and you'rethat happy at work right now.
That's exactly what we expectedto happen and it's exactly what
you're going to do againtomorrow and the next day and
the next day, and so I set thetone for that as their coach.
And then there on that, you know, of course we want to celebrate
with them.
Don't get me wrong.
We love to celebrate the wins.
But you don't come off thatmountaintop back to the valley.
(12:38):
You want to come off that tothis idea of hey, that's your
new normal, that's who you are.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
And that's an important shift.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
That's expected, right, and yeah, I have I don't
know that.
I bought that earlier in mycareer.
Like to me, like I kind of likeyou, like I'm wired to think
like a little bit skeptically,like, yeah, this sounds like
some psycho cat babble, blah,blah, blah, blah, but you know,
the quirk.
Words matter, well, yeah, butreally what matters is the
outcome, kind of thinking asopposed to actually realizing
(13:09):
that.
You know the mindset and thewords that you use with yourself
can matter so much as itrelates to your own individual
happiness and how you approachit.
I do want to ask you aboutsomething that I know that you
talk about and kind of focus on,and that's a lot of times we
talk about these types ofprograms, these approaches like
(13:31):
how are you happy, how do youfind fulfillment and purpose and
passion and all that, and itnever really leads into a
discussion about work-lifebalance.
And you know it's like the mostat this point it's like, well,
naturally we're going to talkabout work-life balance and all
this.
You know how do you fill yourcup and you've got all these.
But you take a little bit of adifferent approach and it's, you
(13:54):
know, one of the points thatyou actually talk about is
forget work-life balance.
So walk us through how we canget here without thinking about
work-life balance.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Let me be a nerd for just a moment.
Kyle, I love it.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Welcome to nerd safe podcasting, because we're all
nerds here.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
This is a safe place to be a nerd.
Okay, so one of the things asan engineer that I'm in love
with is the idea of models, andwe have models for everything.
We have mental models.
We have, you know, programmodels, you know calculations
and mathematical models.
But we model things and yoursubconscious mind uses models
(14:40):
and frameworks and patternrecognition to help make life
easy for you.
You know, I've recognized thisbefore, I've seen a model, this
before, and I'm gonna use thatagain to make my decision faster
, easier, et cetera.
And so models are great.
But here's the kicker.
You know, every model is wrong.
Some are useful.
That's a mantra of engineering,right?
(15:01):
It's very difficult to create aperfect model.
There's always an exception.
There's always some other way.
It could be different.
Right, there's variances.
So models are useful.
They're not always perfect.
But when you say work-lifebalance, your mind
subconsciously creates a model.
And what is it, kyle, like?
When you hear work-life balance, what's the first picture that
comes into your mind?
Speaker 1 (15:23):
For me, it's like I see like a pie chart and I see,
like you know, like segments,right.
So like that's how I envisionit.
So it's like there's a piechart there's work, and then
there's this home, and thenthere's this like dad, and then
there's this, like you know what, you know friends and you know
relationships, and like that'skind of what I envision Totally
totally Super common answer.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
There's two places people generally go Some kind of
chart where I'm allocating allmy time pie chart's a perfect
example and the other one is ascale, like the old fashioned
scale, where it's like on oneside is work and on the other
side is life.
And what is the goal?
Am I trying to make them thesame?
Am I trying to make workheavier than life and make life
(16:05):
heavier than work, like?
So?
In both of those examples wecreate this framework
subconsciously of the goal.
And the goal is what exactlyit's like?
Somehow I need to get this toequal some right answer of work
and life balanced at the rightlevel, like the scale should be
(16:27):
balanced.
But here's the thing, kyle I'venever met a single human who
has a single answer for whatallocation of time or what
balance of work and life is theright answer all the time in
every situation that makes themhappy.
And it just works Like if youhit this static point of your
(16:50):
perfect calendar, then you'llnever have a problem with work
life balance again.
Guess what You're gonna get itto that point you think is
perfect and then next week yourboss is gonna walk in and say
we've got a huge emergency.
I need you to go to the factoryand you gotta travel.
It's not a choice.
Like, you gotta go.
What?
Okay?
Does that mean you just totallyblew up work life balance and
(17:10):
you need to be unhappy all week?
Well, that's a really bad rule.
Like, if you set up those kindof conditions of success around
what work life balance means,you're never going to find this
magical, mythical unicorn placecalled balance.
So I say, forget that.
Like forget the whole notionthat 40 hours at work is what
(17:34):
will make your life perfect, orworking from home is what will
make your work life balanceperfect, or whatever the thing
is.
Let's instead focus on the ideaof balance as an active value.
It's not a point, it's aprocess.
It's not a single answer, it'sselecting the right answer right
(17:58):
now, and because we need tocall it something, I just tell
my clients forget work lifebalance.
Let's focus on whole lifebalance.
You know, the whole idea ofbalance.
I don't even think the word isuseful.
Like I said, it conjures up thewrong model.
But we need to pay attention toyour whole life and be actively
in the present, makingdecisions that are aligned with
(18:22):
your values and your vision.
So today it might make mostsense for you, with your values
and your vision of success, toput in some extra time at work.
Let's do it, let's enjoy it,let's make the most of it, let's
be 100% in and go get theresults.
Tomorrow you might need to tellyour boss no to staying late to
(18:47):
go home and honor your family,that you committed to be at your
daughter's dance recital andyou're gonna be on time and
you're gonna be present therefully, 100%, not on your cell
phone, actually taking picturesand letting your daughter know
she's the most important personin the world tonight.
There isn't a single rightanswer, and the sooner we just
scrap the notion that I need tocreate this thing called
(19:09):
work-life balance and recognizethat I am fully responsible in
every moment to choose what'saligned with my values and
vision, the more we can findfreedom to just love the journey
.
Now, kyle, there's principlesthat are probably true Don't
work 80 hours a week.
Don't neglect people you loved.
Yes, there are things we canall learn from, and I think
(19:32):
people who talk about work-lifebalance mean well.
The intention is really reallygood and there's lots of great
content under the banner ofwork-life balance, but I just
have found that, if I strive forthat, I keep looking for this
point that does not exist.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Absolutely, and I think it's.
I appreciate the way that youapproach that question because I
do think a lot of times, if youtie something to this external
stimulus, so like, yeah, yourboss asking you to work a little
bit longer, or in our worldit's something like, oh, now I
(20:14):
have this employee relationsissue that's gonna keep me here
later on a Friday and well, nowI can't go to happy hour or I
have to miss, those things willhappen.
I mean, it's not a question ofif, it's a question of when and
if.
Every time those things happen.
Now you've got this binary like, well, this is bad or this is
(20:37):
good, this is out of balance.
Now my day is bad.
That's not the best way to live, and I think a lot of it.
You use some words that I wrotedown and I highlighted and you
talked about.
First of all, you talked aboutbeing present and being focused
(20:59):
on the things that matter to you, making sure it hits your
values and your vision, and youuse the word responsible, as in
being personally responsible,and I wanna talk about that a
little bit, because we've talkedabout work-life balance.
We've talked a little bit aboutthe words you use and the
mindset that you have as youlook at finding happiness or joy
(21:24):
in your day to day.
What are the things that weneed to be thinking about, as it
relates to your mindset thatyou have found make people
successful with this goal?
Speaker 2 (21:36):
I remember my coach way back, probably 2015, 2016.
So this was after my burnout,after my divorce.
I was working with a coach oncareer development and he said
to me Zach, you have eithercreated or allowed everything in
(22:00):
your life today.
And I sat there in silencethinking there was going to be
something else coming, likethere's more to that story.
And he was leaving out theaccept this or that, or like
where's all the?
But he just stopped.
I thought to myself, well, holdon, I don't know if I agree
(22:20):
with that.
I didn't.
I didn't ask for this divorce.
I didn't create this burnout.
I didn't want any of thesethings that are, you know, so
hard that I'm working toovercome right now.
Like I didn't create this crap.
What are you kidding me?
Like, yeah, this, this just had.
Like I wanted nothing to dowith being associated as the
creator of these things that Iwas so unhappy with.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Right.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
And Kyle, I can say now I 100% believe that that is
true.
I am fully, radicallyresponsible for everything that
is in my life today.
It doesn't matter how it gothere, it really doesn't.
If somebody dumps their garbageinto your backyard, it doesn't
(23:07):
matter that it wasn't your faultin the sense of you asked for
it or you desired it.
I know a lot of your coachesmight even go so far as to say
there is some subconscious partof you that wanted that problem
to learn something, whatever.
Okay, we won't even have to gothere.
Forget that part.
The fact is, there's garbage inyour backyard.
It's there.
As of this moment, it is yoursto deal with.
(23:31):
You get to choose.
You can clean it up, you cancomplain about it, you can let
it get nastier and smell evenworse day over day over day, or
you can just get out there witha garbage bag and clean up the
mess and deal with it.
You know like it.
What's in your life is yours.
You are responsible.
And so you ask what qualitiescreate happiness and fulfillment
(23:53):
and success?
Absolutely, I believe, aradical responsibility for your
own life experience and what'sin it is a mandatory.
It's mandatory.
People who are happy are notvictims.
People who are happy at workdon't rely on their boss or the
company culture or some you knowbig bonus at the end of the
(24:17):
year to be the thing that makesthem happy.
They don't leave it to chanceor to someone else to fill that
in for them.
They take full responsibilityfor it themselves.
And it's not to say certainthings are not harder than
others to experience positiveemotions.
There are hard things in lifeand it can be tough, but that's
(24:38):
an absolute precursor.
So to fill out the list then,there's really three things that
I start with with all of myclients that I think are
foundational.
If we don't have them, we'regoing to have a very difficult
time creating the results thatthey desire.
Radical responsibility is one.
A growth mindset is number two,in the spirit of the work from
(25:00):
Carol Dweck, who wrote the bookMindset and if you're not
familiar it's a must read.
The growth mindset is essential.
And then number three isconfidence, and there's a lot we
can unpack around what all isrelated to that.
There's a lot of other wordsyou might use, tangential, but
just that ability, that courage,that confidence to step out of
(25:22):
the comfort zone and act, anesteem, you might even call it a
high level of self esteemthat's required in order to face
those risks and failures andkeep moving forward.
So radical responsibility, agrowth mindset and confidence or
courage, those three things tome wow.
If you can get those right, youbecome unstoppable in the
(25:45):
workplace, in your personal life, in relationships.
It's pretty awesome themountains you can move with
those three things.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Absolutely, and I think this is one of those areas
that it makes sense, and Ithink everybody listening to
this is probably like oh yeah,okay, I get it, although One,
because you pushed over how muchyou could do.
You got the ability to lock itproperly.
You know they're the, the, theradical responsibility component
.
I think it's really easy for usto like directionally, agree
(26:17):
right.
So it's like, yeah, absolutely,I'm gonna take.
You know, this is my life, mylife is happening exactly on my
terms.
I'm, you know, I am in controlof my reaction to the
environment that I'm in andthat's it, nothing else.
And Then you get into it andit's just like, oh shit, you
know, like nice, now thishappened and that happened.
That guy cut me off in traffic.
So I'm gonna flip them themiddle finger and scream at them
(26:41):
and, and you know, it'sActually practicing this.
That is the, you know, reallythe game changer and and having
having the actual mindset Setshift is that it's the beginning
, right, and then it's thecontinued behavioral, you know,
actions within that, the kind ofthat frequency, that that, that
really that really matter.
(27:02):
And so I want to talk a littlebit about I want to talk a
little bit about confidence,because you talked about
confidence and I think it's oneof those areas where it's like,
you know, especially in in inour listeners Day, you know it's
it's easy to To kind of losesight of that self-confidence
because we're dealing with somany things that don't have a
(27:23):
clear answer.
Sometimes we second-guessourselves.
You know we're dealing withhuman behavior.
It's messy and sometimes it'sugly and and you know we're just
trying to do the best with withwhat we've got.
So, as it relates to thatself-confidence and really
really being aware and presentand and being in control of our
own Happiness, as opposed toletting others happiness or lack
(27:45):
thereof kind of trickle in,what are those, those key
components of confidence thatyou work with your clients on to
ensure that that sets them upfor success Foundationally, so
that they can continue to havethe sustained happiness?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
in their lives.
It's tough to pick a singlethread to pull because and I'm
sure anyone listening you youthink about confidence and how
we created.
If there was an Easy button forconfidence, I would be way way
wealthier than I am.
I mean you could very bottle andsell confidence.
(28:22):
You'd be the richest person onthe planet.
But here's the thing first.
First thing, for engineers inparticular, is we begin by
addressing well, what?
What is confidence?
What is it?
And a lot of times you ask thatquestion and someone will start
describing what it looks like.
(28:43):
What is confidence?
Well, confidence is when you gointo the presentation Knowing
that you're gonna do well andyou show up with a better
executive presence and yourvoice is more clear and loud.
And you know they describe theoutcome of confidence.
But what confidence is is Anemotion.
(29:06):
It's an emotion, it's an energyin your body, and I mean that
literally.
Emotion, e motion, energy inmotion.
Emotion is a physicalexperience, it's a, it's
something present in yourphysiology, not just in your
mind.
And so when we talk about thatand recognize what is it that
(29:28):
I'm craving here, what is itthat I'm seeking to create?
It's an emotion, it's anexperience and how I show up to
a situation, not about myintellect, not about you know
the outcome of the situation.
It's none of those things Right.
So so when you start there, itcreates a different set of
(29:51):
questions.
It's not about how do I getsmarter.
It's not about how do I getbetter results.
It's about how do I tap into,into the energy that I call
confidence.
How do I get to that place thatI use the word confidence to
describe the feeling that I'mhaving?
(30:11):
I Need to practice getting tothat place, and so it's
sometimes fun to do a littleexercise to people to say well,
you know, are you familiar withwhat it feels like to be angry?
People say, yes, I've beenangry before.
Okay, cool.
Well, if I was to ask you topractice getting angry today,
what would you do to practicethat?
How would you practice anger?
(30:33):
And it's kind of yeah, you'rechocolate.
It's like I have a weirdquestion, right.
Well, I'm like, how would I?
Speaker 1 (30:38):
do that, I'd like, I'd probably hold my breath and
like get my, you know like, liketrying to get my face, you know
like and I love that.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I love that what you're doing, exactly everything
.
I would change my physiologyright, I do some things right,
and maybe I would pull up apicture of a person in the
opposing political party to mind, or I would do something like
I'd start thinking about thesethings that make me angry and I
would get into that headspace.
It's like, okay, exactly.
So now, when was the last timeyou felt really confident?
(31:06):
I want you to do the samethings and let's practice
getting to a place of confidence.
What's something that everytime you do it, you can do it
with total confidence.
Okay, let's go there.
Let's practice feeling it andget familiar with what
confidence feels like.
Like you need to be at home inthe energy of confidence, right.
(31:29):
And then what we'll start to dois some really fun tools where
we'll just say, all right, nowwhat we're going to do is take
it one step further.
I'm going to ask you to go to aplace of confidence and then
we're going to link that to afuture experience in our
visualization.
So you've got a big presentationcoming up.
Rather than rehearsing yourpresentation a hundred more
times and thinking that that'sgoing to make you more confident
(31:51):
, let's just practice beingconfident in the presentation.
But to do that, we need tofirst create the energy of
confidence and then immediatelytransition our vision of our
mind's eye to the place whereI'm going to need it.
And you see, what's so coolabout the mind is it doesn't
actually know the differencebetween a real experience and a
(32:12):
vividly imagined one, andemotions are conditioned
patterns of response to thoughtsand environmental stimuli.
That's all it is.
And when I conditioned myselfto go to a place that I call
confidence, every time I'm inthis place where I need it.
It's no different thanpracticing free throws or
(32:33):
practicing writing the letter Awhen you're a child.
You build the repetition andsuddenly your subconscious mind
says, oh Kyle, I remember this.
This is the place where youshow up with confidence.
I've done this before, right.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Now you've got a neural pathway, and now I?
Speaker 2 (32:47):
got the pathway Exactly, and so this is the
thing you know.
It's like wait, what is thattalking about?
This is crazy.
The whole idea of confidencethat I tell my clients is you
already have it inside you.
You already have the confidencewithin you.
It's not about becoming somenew person.
It's about learning how to bewho you are in the way you need
(33:08):
to be, in the right moment.
And so we start with that kindof foundation, you know.
And then there's other things.
We link together and the threeprinciples we mentioned earlier.
These all feed each other.
When you have a growth mindset,you're not so worried about
winning or losing, success orfailure, because winning is
winning and losing is learning,and learning is winning.
(33:30):
So I always win.
It's like now you start to haveless fear.
And then, if you take radicalresponsibility, you know that it
doesn't matter what the outcomeis, I will step up and do the
next right thing.
And so there's this upwardspiral where it gets easier to
be confident because I'mpracticing it.
Oh, and, by the way, it doesn'tmatter if I fail.
Oh, and, by the way, this is mylife and I'm going to take full
(33:52):
responsibility for it.
I don't care what you thinkLike, let's go.
Those all shift and the tiderises.
It's pretty fun to watch.
It creates this virtuous loopwhere confidence starts to
become your default state.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
I love it All right.
Well, we are coming to the endof our time together here and
I'm fascinated to hear theresponse.
I'm going to be honest with you, this is not exactly where I
expected to end the conversationwith a former engineer from a
Fortune 500 company.
I'm pumped because this is like.
I think this is a reallyinteresting context to think
(34:27):
about this type of thing, and Ialso think that thinking about
this in a way where there's asystematic approach, there's a
model to this, there's actuallya method here, is helpful for
those of us that are trying tofind our way.
So, with that being said, we'regoing to shift gears.
(34:47):
We're going to go into theRebel HR Flash Round, retention
number one.
Where does HR need to rebel?
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Rebellion.
Okay, here's the place.
I got the place.
Kyle HR needs to rebel on theidea of retention.
I'll explain.
Retention is a big deal, Itotally get it.
Turnover is expensive.
Retention is a good indicationof engagement and if people are
loving their jobs and all thesethings, when you focus on
(35:20):
retention, you put yourself intoan energy of seeking to.
I mean literally.
Think about the word retain,Retain.
When was the last time youwanted to be retained in any
other context?
Do you want to be retained atthe airport next time you travel
?
We usually call that detained,but still it's a similar kind of
(35:42):
energy.
It's like I don't want you tobe able to leave, I want to
retain you here.
Well, it's the same kind ofthing like in sales If you're
chasing people, they run away,and if you try to put them in a
cage, all they want to do is getout.
If all you're focused on isretaining people, you're
subconsciously creating anenergy around that objective
(36:06):
that actually creates theopposite response in the
employee.
Every time you say, how can Iretain you, how can I retain you
?
That person is thinking get meout of here, run away.
I don't want to be in a cage.
Nobody wants the goldenhandcuffs, nobody wants to be
stuck.
So here's what I would encourageyou, kind of like we said
(36:26):
forget work-life balance, forgetretention and focus on
actualization.
Now that's the big fancy coachy.
You know psychology word forhelping people to realize their
own goals and dreams, to becomethe version of themselves they
want to become.
If you will just help people toactualize what they want in
(36:50):
life, you will win, becauseeither A they're going to do it
in your company and they'regoing to love it, and they will
be the best employees you'veever had and they'll stick
around.
You'll win at retention as well, or they'll leave because this
isn't the place that they seethemselves living their best
life, and you open the seat upfor somebody who does want to
(37:11):
live their best life at yourcompany.
Now that'll hurt in the shortterm, but you will win in the
long run, and so focus onactualization instead of
retention.
I think you'll win.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
You know, yeah, I heard that in that context.
It's like, yeah, you're notsupposed to retain water, why do
you want to retain employees?
You know what I mean.
It's not, that's good.
Now I'm just trying to figureout what KPI can I put on that
Actualization KPI?
I'm just trying to figure thatone out.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Question number two who should we be listening to?
Speaker 2 (37:44):
I would listen to the people that your employees turn
to when they're unhappy.
And who is that?
You know, right now, in theworld we live in today, it's
just two people that come tomind.
It's therapists and coaches.
The coaching industry hasabsolutely exploded in the last
decade, and the number ofAmericans in particular I've
(38:06):
seen the stats, I don't knowworldwide, but I have to imagine
it's similar who are in someform of psychotherapy right now
is higher than ever.
And yeah, we can blame COVID orwe can blame whatever we want,
but the fact is everybody'sturning to somebody for help and
they're having theconversations that HR wishes.
They could have to understandwhat's really going on, but
(38:28):
nobody's going to have thatconversation with HR.
And so if you want to knowwhat's really happening in the
hearts and minds of youremployees, go listen to the
people who are on the receivingend of those truthful
conversations.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Yeah, and I think it's an important thing.
Maybe a comment too HIPAAnotwithstanding, you should be
offering this to your employeesas well.
If this isn't a component ofyour benefits plan, like
honestly offering them thatoutlet.
If it's not, you give them Anopportunity or an option to go
(39:06):
find somebody else, because someof this is them figuring this
out on their own too, right?
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Yeah, some of this is out of our scope, Absolutely
and just in case somebody'shearing this the wrong way, I'm
not saying go ask your employeestherapist what you talked about
in the session.
That's not the point.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
They're either some compliance, compliance.
People are like, oh, I can't dothat because I hit this guy is
out of control.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Yeah, I'm not saying get, get the real details on the
people.
What I'm saying is these peoplehave a lens on the themes right
, the trends and the types ofproblems and how they approach
solving them and Ways that youcould integrate that into the
workplace.
Absolutely, and there's people.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of research out there too,
from from these professionalsthat I think can can be, you
know, illuminating.
I think there's.
You know he listen up and Ithink you know, you know if
you're not, you know, currently,you know getting help or or
making sure that you have thatoutlet, whether that's a coach
or a therapist, or or, or your,your, your friend group, you
(40:05):
know what have you?
You know just listen, right,listen and learn.
Alright, last, last questionhere opportunity To to give
everybody a handoff.
How can our listeners reach out, connect with you and and how
can they find the podcast andyour services?
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Kyle, thanks for the opportunity and the easiest way.
If anyone wants to know moreabout you know my view on how to
create career success and avoidburnout.
Create this balance we talkedabout in the right way.
The podcast is the easiestplace.
Wherever you're tuned in to therebel HR Podcast, just jump
over, search the happy engineer.
(40:42):
You'll find me there.
Give it a follow and a listen.
I really appreciate that.
All the show notes and links tofind me in depth can be found
around the podcast.
Or If you want to jump out andconnect with me directly, the
website is the happy engineerpodcast Dot-com and you can find
ways to connect with medirectly there.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
Perfect.
We'll have all that information, of course, in the show notes
so you can pop open the podcastplayer.
Just click right in the linkthere.
You know, strongly, stronglyencourage you to check it out.
Zach, it's been an absolutepleasure.
Appreciate all the work thatyou're doing.
I thought I thought some reallygreat content and some things
for us to be be thinking about,and I can't wait to stay
connected here and and now.
You're going forward, so thankyou.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
You're welcome, kyle.
Thanks for having me love thework you're doing.
Keep it up, man.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
All right, that does it for the rebel HR podcast.
Big Thank you to our guests.
Follow us on Facebook at rebelHR podcast, twitter at rebel HR
guy, or see our website at rebelhuman resources Dot-com.
Views and opinions expressed byrebel HR podcast are those of
the authors and do notnecessarily reflect the official
(41:47):
policy or position of Any ofthe organizations that we
represent.
No animals were harmed duringthe filming of this podcast.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Maybe,
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