Navigating Tough Conversations with Radical Candor (July 17, 2024)

Episode Transcript
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Derek Lundsten (00:47):
We're going to get started.
So again, welcome to thisepisode of Rebels With A Heart.
Derek Lundsten, thrilled to bewith all of you today.
And we're going to go to our,our amazing guest panelists for
the conversation today aboutnavigating tough or challenging
or emotionally triggeringconversations with radical
candor, radical respect andgrace and building trust in that
way.
It's really, and I know each ofyou has a, Very seasoned

(01:08):
perspective on this anddifferent organizations as well
as who you are personally.
So I'm looking forward to theconversation.
So we'll start with you, Kim,please introduce yourself and
welcome to our community.

Kim Scott (01:18):
Sure, I'm Kim Scott, and I wrote a couple of books
that got published and many thatnever got published, but the
ones that the ones that are outthere are Radical Candor.
Be A Kick Ass Boss WithoutLosing Your Humanity, and
Radical Respect, How To WorkTogether Better.
Uh, something that I think isprobably on a lot of people's

(01:40):
minds right now.

Absolutely.
And we're gonna go to Tamla.

Tamla Oates-Forney (01:46):
Hi, Tamla Oates Forney.
I am the CEO of Linkage, a SHRMcompany focused on leadership
development, primarily focusedon women and changing the face
of leadership.
I like to think I'm a recoveringCHRO, having been a CHRO for
multiple companies, but now I'mstill in that leadership
development space.
And I'm thrilled to be havingthis conversation, especially

(02:07):
when I describe myself as a hotleader, meaning that I'm honest,
open and transparent.
I think we don't have enough ofthose and I'm thrilled to engage
in a dialogue and conversationwith both my colleagues as well
as the the audience at large.
So excited about theopportunity.
Thank you for having me.

Dean Carter (02:23):
Our pleasure.
Welcome, Tamla.
And Dean.
I'm Dean Carter and I'm callingyou today from Santa Barbara,
California.
Um, and I am a four time head ofHR.
I have, uh, companies yourecognize.
Which, um, started off asFossil, which was kind of a
rebellious, um, watch company.
Actually, I have no idea how wesold a bunch of watches in cans,

(02:45):
but we did.
Um, then after that, went toanother company you might
recognize, Sears and Kmart, um,during an extraordinary time as
the Titanic sunk.
Um, anyhow, that's a whole otherstory that I will share.
But Kim, I'll need some helpwriting that book, but a few
people have to, I can't write ityet.
Um, then after that, I went toPatagonia, where I was the head

(03:09):
of HR in a unique role, whichwas not just the head of HR, but
general counsel and finance alsoreported to me during that time.
The company grew four times andultimately became the most loved
brand in the world.
So, uh, after that, I went tothis incredible rebellious
startup called Guild, which washelping America's, another B

(03:30):
Corp actually, the second B CorpI work with.
Um, making sure that hourlyworkers get extraordinary jobs
through free education.
And I currently, um, after kindof moving away from the head of
HR job, At this point in life, Ijust wanted to learn something
new, um, and really scaremyself, um, which is great.
I'm scared every single day asthe Chief Experience Officer at

(03:51):
Modern, which is trying to blowup the industry around search
and advisory work by puttingboth of those concepts together.
And I run all of our experiencesand our communities for one of
the largest HR networks in theworld.
So anyhow, that's, uh, it wasgood fun and I'm so glad to be
here today.

Awesome.
And I'm Derek Lundsten for allthe audience who, and for our
guests here, President and ChiefCulture Officer of LifeGuides.
And we've built a platform thatfacilitates connections and
conversations across a widearray of life experiences,
events, and challenges.
And I also have the greatprivilege to be the host of
Rebels With A Heart.
And it's a true labor of loveand an honor to have you all
here with us.
So I will say, you all areamazing.

(04:28):
leaders, and you are all rebelswith a heart and radical leaders
and exemplars in your field, andyour introductions were perfect
from a professional standpoint,but who are you?
I mean, we talk about the wholeperson at work.
Who are each of you?
outside of the workplace.
You didn't cover that topic,which I thought is fascinating.
Then none of the three of youwent there, which is highly

(04:50):
unusual.
So now I'm going to call it out.
Who are you?
And also in the context of thisculture and societal time we're
in, how are you?
Like really on an emotionallevel and a spiritual level, how
are you doing?
Because there's a lot happeningright now that we read about and
are confronted with and I wouldjust like to know that too, so

I'll jump in since I went last.
I'll go first on this one.
I am.
I'm, um, I grew up in Texas in asmall town and, um, coming out
being from Texas in a small townand family of Southern Baptist
was not easy.
Um, I came out in 1988.
And I don't know if you remember1988, but that was a time when

(05:32):
all my friends were dying.
And, uh, the world was turningthe other way as a huge
community.
And literally tens of thousands,hundreds of thousands of my
friends were dying.
So we, we had to fight for alot.
And, uh, at the time, the sodomylaws were still in place in
Texas and you could be not justfired for, for being gay, but

(05:53):
you could be put in jail, whichhappened all the time.
Um, I we would sneak into thebars because you get beat up at
night and, um, friends werefrequently put in the hospital.
I woke up being just terrifiedof this and, uh, if, if that's
like if, if that's like Ifanyone ever says, like, you
would choose that as aridiculous concept, to choose

(06:13):
what I just talked about as aridiculous concept, you can't
help it.
But anyhow, so in this, let'sfast forward to this moment, and
I think sometimes we forget thefight.
Like, assume that gay marriagehas been here all the time.
We assume that we've had everysingle right that we've had.
We assume that we have the rightto work, and we assume that we
have the right to love who wewant to love.

(06:35):
And I feel frightened, to behonest, at the moment.
I feel, I never, I never feelsafe, ever.
Even, even in Santa Barbara, um,I always feel like my life could
turn around tomorrow.
And so I, that, that's how Ialways feel, like this, I never
take it for granted.

(06:56):
And I feel like any moment theworld could turn and I'm in the
same place I was in 1988.
That's how I really feel.

Thank you for sharing that so genuinely and
openly and authentically, Dean,truly.
And we're just getting to knoweach other.
I really felt that and honorthat in you.

I'm celebrating my 25th wedding anniversary with my
husband, by the way, um, nextyear.
So that's a good fun thing.

So I'll go.
Thank you for sharing, Dean.
Um, and thank you for askingDerek about how we are truly.
And, uh, I, for me, I'm in thisperiod of transition in my life
and probably the most I guessthe happiest that I've been in a
while, because I made a lifedecision to transition from, um,
a very stressful environment.

(07:45):
Uh, being a CHRO in any companytoday is very, very, very
stressful and I've always, um,given every job that I had 200%,
but that 200 percent almost tookme out, literally.
Um, I was literally rushed from,you know, from the office, you
know, To the ER, um, in theambulance for what I thought was

(08:08):
a heart attack, but the blessingwas that it wasn't a heart
attack.
It was stress induced.
It was stress induced.
And, um, I love that the, thework of HR, but how am I, how
I'm doing it is different.
And I remember, um, when I wasin the ambulance going to the
emergency room and I'm verystrong in my faith.
And so I said, God, if you letme live.

(08:30):
And live through this, I promiseI'll do some things differently.
And, you know, that was inNovember on November 2nd, to be
exact.
And I did some thingsdifferently.
And so, um, I worked for aphenomenal company.
I was the head of HR for USA,love the company, everything
that represents the mission andthings of that nature.
But it's also going through aperiod of transformation.

(08:51):
And, um, it was just not theright place for me at the right,
that right time in my life.
Um, based on what they neededversus what I could provide.
And the sad thing is a lot of mypeers are going through the same
thing and they're suffering insilence.
And had I not had that ordeal orthat incident, I probably will
still be there just grinding itout and suffering through as

(09:11):
many of us do, but I'm grateful.
I stand in a place of gratitudeand just grateful that I've been
given.
Another opportunity to stillkind of stay in the fight, if
you will, and make a differencein terms of talent and
leadership development.
But what it looks like for me istotally different.
I have prioritized.
My faith, my family, um, andjust being present with them,

(09:33):
but I'm not having to sacrificemy wellbeing.
And I'm so blessed to be able todo the work that I do, uh,
working in, in SHRM.
And that's, you know, that's theorganization that is all things
work, um, largest HRorganization in the world, if
you will.
And I get to do leadershipdevelopment.
In a space where I can haveimpact across multiple companies

(09:55):
with the focus on things thatI'm passionate about, like women
and changing the face ofleadership, both in terms of
women, the inclusion aspect andthings of that nature.
So I'm in a really good place,but I had to go through a very
traumatic ordeal to get to that.
And so I am, I wouldn't like,I'd like to think I'm a rebel
with a cause, but I am finallyin a role where my, my passion,

(10:19):
my profession.
And my purpose are all alignedand I don't have to compromise
or sacrifice my wellbeing.
And so I'm in a really goodplace.
And then I'm also a wife, almost26 years of marriage to my
phenomenal husband, who's alsoin HR.
And I have two beautifulchildren.
I have a 25 15 year old.
Um, and I've just, I'm in areally good place because I feel

(10:40):
like I finally have a level of,of balance that I have not
experienced in a long time.
So I'm good.

That's beautiful.
Thank you.
Congratulations.

Kim Scott (10:51):
Thank you.
Both Dean and Tom Law forsharing.
Uh, it is, uh, I, I, I want toshare with with everyone.
This really is a very stressfulmoment in time and, uh.
You know, I come to this, thismoment in time by way of growing
up in Memphis, Tennessee, andthen starting my career actually

(11:16):
in the, in what was then theSoviet Union.
And so I've been thinking a lot,you know, since that time, but
especially now, it seems likethe threat of authoritarian, I
never expected, To face thethreat of an authoritarian
regime in the United States.

(11:36):
And I do feel like we are facingthat threat right now.
And it comes in a lot ofdifferent ways, uh, you know,
that, that are, are veryworrisome to me in the abstract.
When I read, uh, when I readwhat's happening, I'm very
worried, but I'm also at thesame time incredibly optimistic.

(11:58):
Like, in my day to day work, I'msort of where Tamla is.
That I'm, I'm working withpeople who inspire me every
single day.
And I also, my whole businesscareer, I was an operating
executive, uh, well, I did a fewfailed startups and then I took
a big role at Google leadingAdSense, YouTube and DoubleClick

(12:20):
Sales and Operations.
And then I worked at Apple andmy whole career in business was
really one giant plan tosubsidize my writing habits.
And so for a long time, it was aweird reason to go into
business, but, but for a longtime, I felt like my business
career was 100%.
External validation and 0percent internal validation.

(12:42):
And my writing was 100 percentinternal validation, 0 percent
external, because I had allthese unpublished novels.
And I feel like I'm at thisplace in time where I finally
brought, you know, uh, body andsoul together.
And, uh, and I hope to be ableto continue to, uh, to, to make

(13:03):
a difference doing that, butthere are, there are definitely
moments where I feel like issitting alone in my house,
writing really the mostimportant thing I could be doing
in this moment in time.
So, um, I'm, I'm open to advicefrom everyone.

Oh, I can just say, you know, having been a fan
of your work for eight plusyears now, Kim, rather than you
read your first book, and I havenot read your second book yet,
so I'm looking forward tohearing more about that and
getting into it.
I think your voice through thepenmanship that you do is, is
quite impactful and I thinkplays an important role here.
So I just want to first and say,say that.
And maybe that's a good place tostart with the first question,

(13:41):
which I think we'll do.
our guest, what, what promptedthe Radical Respect book?
Why did, and why the rebrand?
I know there was an initialtitle, you changed it as it
evolved, I mean, I think it'd behelpful for the audience to hear
a bit about that evolution andalso understanding the
foundational principles.
Radical Candor, and I thinkthat'll bloom nicely into a good
shot here with Pamela and Dean.

Kim Scott (14:02):
Sure, so Radical Candor was all about caring
personally and challengingdirectly at the same time.
That's what Radical Candor is.
What Radical Candor is not, isit's not obnoxious aggression.
That's what happens when youchallenge, but you don't show
you care.
It's also not manipulativeinsincerity, where you're
neither caring nor challenging,you know, so obnoxious

(14:24):
aggression is frontstabbing,manipulative insincerity is
backstabbing.
And it's also not what I callruinous empathy, which is what
happens when we get We doremember to show that we care,
but we're so worried about nothurting someone's feelings or
not offending them that wefailed to tell them something
they'd be better off knowing inthe long run.
So that's kind of the radicalcandor framework in a nutshell,

(14:47):
and it gets applied to all theaspects of management, to
feedback, to building a team,and to getting, getting things
done.
But of course, mostly it's a, ithas gotten well known around
the.
of feedback.
And so if you write a book aboutfeedback, you're going to get a
lot of it.
And it was some feedback that Igot about Radical Candor that

(15:09):
prompted me to write RadicalRespect.
This happened right after thebook came out.
I was invited to give a talk ata tech company in San Francisco.
And the CEO of that company hadbeen a colleague of mine for the
better part of a decade.
And she's a person who I likeand respect.

(15:29):
And so I was really excited togive a talk at her company.
And after I gave the talk, shepulled me aside and she said to
me, Kim, I'm excited to roll outradical candor.
I think it's going to help mebuild the kind of culture that I
want, but I got to tell you,it's much harder for me to roll
it out than it is for you.
And she went on to explain to methat as a black woman, when she

(15:50):
would give people even the mostgentle, compassionate.
Criticism, they wouldimmediately call her an angry
Black woman.
And as soon as she said this, Iknew how unfair it was, because
she's one of the most evenkeeled, cheerful people I've
ever worked with.
And I realized four differentthings at the same time.
And these became kind of thechapters of the book.

(16:12):
Actually, like the differentroles that we all play.
So the first thing that Irealized was that I had not been
the kind of colleague that Iwant to be, that I imagined
myself to be.
I had, I had failed to be anupstander for her.
In fact, I had failed even totake into account the toll it
must take on her to have to showup unfailingly cheerful and

(16:32):
pleasant in every meeting wewere ever in together, even
though she had want to be pissedoff about as we all do at work.
But I, it was easier for me togive voice.
to the things I was upset aboutthan it was for her.
So that was number one.
The second thing that herfeedback helped me realize was
that not only had I been indenial about the kinds of things
that were happening to her, Ihad also been in denial about

(16:55):
the kinds of disrespectfulattitudes and behaviors that had
been directed at me and kind ofhard for the author of a book
called Radical Candor to admit,but I had been pretending that a
whole host of things were nothappening.
That were, in fact, happening.
So I had not chosen myresponses.
I just defaulted to silence,which is not what, what I'm all

(17:16):
about.
Uh, and, and I think the reasonthat I did that is, is that I
never wanted to think of myselfor, or as my colleague as
victims.
But even less than wanting tothink of myself as a victim, did
I ever want to think of myselfas the culprit.
And so the third thing that Irealized was that I had been,
over the course of my career,most deeply in denial about the

(17:40):
times when it was mydisrespectful attitudes or
behaviors that were making itharder than it needed to be for,
for my team to get the job done.
And that was like, that, that,That was hard, especially hard
for me, at least not.
I think I'm not alone because Ifelt ashamed about that.
And, and, and often when we feelashamed, our executive function

(18:02):
shuts down and we, we don't doour best work.
Uh, and then the 4th thing thatI realized was that as a leader.
I saw myself as a leader who wasbuilding these BS free zones
where everybody could do thebest work of their lives and
enjoy working together.
And yet by pretending thesedisrespectful attitudes and
behaviors were not happening Iwas, I was unable to prevent

(18:24):
them from getting in my teamsway.
And I think that, That's amistake.
I mean, it's kind ofembarrassing to admit, but it's
a mistake I made.
And I've noticed other leadersmake this mistake too.
It's when I started a company, Ithought, Oh, if I'm in charge,
all this other BS won't happen.
You know, human nature will bedifferent.
And of course it's not, uh, itdoes happen.
So, so those were, those arekind of the four chapters of

(18:47):
radical, the four first chaptersof radical respect.
Like, what can we do as leaders?
What can we do as upstanders?
What can we do when we'reharmed?
And what, what can we do when wecause harm?
Uh, in order to get back toradical respect.
So what do I mean?
Should I pause there?
You want me to tell you what Imean by radical respect?

I think First, hold that thought.
I'm going to ask Dean, Tamla,what's coming up for you as you
hear that overview, as youreflect on your own journeys in
these ways?
What's what's because I saw yourbody language for both of you.
Oh my

gosh, Kim, you struck a nerve in a good
way.
Um, and you're like, You know,preaching to the choir here,
being an African American femaleand oftentimes the only one in
the room, when you stand up andyou voice your opinion, even if
it's, if it's contrary to whatothers believe, you have to
constantly monitor the what andhow and when you speak so that

(19:41):
it will not be misconstrued.
Um, it is both a blessing and aburden being, you know, being at
an executive level, but you alsosometimes.
Your exchange as an AfricanAmerican female in the room with
executives is sometimes the onlyexchange they will have with
other African American femalesand how you show up and how they
perceive you has a lastingimpact on how they engage with

(20:05):
other people who look like me.
So you're carrying that as well.
And so I remember when I wasevolving into leadership.
And, you know, I'm firstgeneration college grad and my
mother, her advice to me, shegave me what she had was get
your education, work hard, andthose things will come.
And then you speak when spokento and all those things.

(20:25):
And that was some of the thingsthat I was going through.
And, you know, as I was climbingthe corporate ladder.
But as I began to evolve and,and, and had mentors and
sponsors to help me navigatethis, because it was foreign, it
was foreign and it wasexhausting.
Right.
And in some cases, it's stillexhausting because there's still
so few of us in these seats.
But I learned to have a voice ina way that maintained the

(20:48):
integrity of who I was.
And I also, I spent a lot oftime preparing to present a
point of view, because I didn'twant to come across as, ill
prepared, disrespectful, etcetera.
And that was so different fromothers, right.
And so I think about, you know,my evolution to where I am today

(21:09):
and how I got there.
It has definitely been ajourney, but, and that's why I
really try to be, you know, thehonest, open and transparent
leader that I am.
But it starts from a, Foundationof care and compassion.
Um, because if you don't havethat caring compassion, if you
haven't shown that repeatedly,then it's hard to kind of demand

(21:31):
or get the other things if youdon't start from a place of
care.
And I always try to be theleader.
That I've always wanted to workfor, or the type of peers that
I've always wanted to work with,because it hasn't always been
pleasant.
So what you were saying to me, Iwas over in your Amen corner,
like, yes, yes, yes.
But this story is just socommon.
But I think if we all get tojust a place of, uh, Care and

(21:53):
compassion for just the humanand really seek to understand a
person's journey and their,their life experiences, because
it helps shape their point ofview in a way that you would be
surprised.
I also remember, you know,having to compartmentalize my
life in, in, in corporateAmerica.
And I remember when the GeorgeFloyd murder had happened, and I

(22:17):
literally.
Broke down in front of my peersand, and my teams, and I can't
carry this anymore.
I'm hurting really bad and Ican't mask it anymore because so
oftentimes we have to mask howwe're really feeling and who we
really are for fear that itwould be a sign of weakness.
But in fact, the opposite istrue.
It is such a sign of strength.

(22:37):
Um, and so it, there's a lot tounpack in that, but you said so
much.
And, uh, I was laughing becausewe were also in my last job, we
were, we were studying how to beradically candid in your book.
And it was, again, it wassomething that we were evolving
into, but it first started with.
You got to care about theindividual and know the

(22:58):
individual first, because that'sthe basis for which all this is
going to work.
But there's a lot there.
There's a lot there, Derek.
But I mean, and you just packedsome stuff for me, Kim.
So thanks for sharing.
But it's been a journey.
But I am now in a place where Iget to change some of those
rules because I'm in a place ofinfluence.
Right.

And I'll just say, just to put a period on
that, thank you for sharing.
When you, when you care, that'san invitation, right?
Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And that's what we really need in our work
environments in our, in ourcommunities, period.
So

yeah,

I'll invite Dean, you know, again, I'll
invite you to share on thistopic.
I

I, um, you know, Kim, I really, what I really
love and appreciate about whatyou did, which is you got the,
got the right thing in terms of,you know, radical candor.
And then came back and said,wait a minute, that's, that's
the, that's the second book, notthe first book.
And so I went back and wrote thefirst book, which is start with

(24:00):
respect and radical respect, andthen you radical candor.
And I love that, um, youlistened.
I love that you heard people andyou said, wow, that, that was
actually book two.
And I, uh, I should have writtenbook one first.
Like it's just that concept is,um, and I think a lot of people
like, you know what, read, readbook three.

(24:21):
I want to read the book, getover it.
So I think you just went backand said, yeah, with your own
version of, you know, route ofrespect and said, okay, I'm
gonna go here.
I do think, um, My, my goal inlife is to be incredibly
authentic and, and, and I, uh,there's something that can show
up in authentic ways.

(24:42):
I think it's incrediblyimportant as a leader being, um,
authentically vulnerable, notfake vulnerable, but
authentically vulnerable intimes that matter.
Like I think you mentioned.
Tamla also, the kind of momentsof vulnerability.
I think we need, I think peopleneed to see leaders when they
are vulnerable.
I think we're taught to wearthese ridiculous masks that I'm

(25:03):
not human.
I'm superhuman.
I don't feel, I don't have junkgoing on at home.
And I have an, or my life and,uh, like, yeah, I mean, you
don't know this, but my dad diedlast week.
I'm carrying that.
But it's not like, You know, youknow, those waves come and I may

(25:23):
break down and like, be a messin just a minute, right?
I, um, and that's a complexthing to my whole dad, but I
just really appreciate that.
And I, um, I, I usually try toapproach when I know it's going
to be a difficult conversation.
I actually see.
state that I'm about to tell yousomething and I want to tell you
it's coming from a place ofcare.
And I, and that's the onlyreason I'm sharing with this

(25:46):
because I think it's importantto you and I would want to hear
this.
So I'm telling you can ignoreit.
You can do nothing with it, butknow that it's coming from a
place that I, that I'm concernedabout you because if I didn't
care, I wouldn't say a thing.
So here we go.
And so I usually try to actuallybring the level down and put,
let people know the place thatI'm coming from when I'm about

(26:06):
to give A sort of candidconversation that I know that's
going to be hard for them, um,especially in an employment
situation, you know, in life,you end up having these, you
know, respectful relationships.
So you can say things right upfront.
You're like, oh, I think that'sit.
So you can get into respectfulconversations because you get
that.
But sometimes you don't get thatopportunity to build respect.
And in an employment situation,you have to kind of build in the

(26:28):
moment.
So, Nina, thank you for that,and I really just appreciate it.
Kind of like, boop, boop, two.

I want to carry a, piggyback on something
that you said, though, Kim, thatI think is also very important,
is owning your role in making atransition.
You know, oftentimes we deflectwhat our role is and what we
play in the environment by whichwe work and or lead and, you
know, do some introspective soulsearching, if you will, to say,

(26:55):
what could, what did I do tocontribute to where we are and
what can I do differently tomove us forward?
To me, ownership of our roles oreven in some of the mistakes or
things that we could have donedifferent, it goes a long way to
show that you're human, thatyou're, you're vulnerable.
And that you're open to change.

(27:17):
It is not just what we say weare as leaders, it's how do we
show up and show up consistentlyin the workplace and for our
teams.
When you are constantly engagingwith your teammates and your, be
it your subordinates or yourpeers, etc.
In a constructive way, be itgood news, bad news, then it
makes those conversationseasier.
You know, when you have to havetough conversations because they

(27:39):
know you and they know yourintent.
Um, but if it's, it's only whenthere is something negative that
you speak, then they're notgoing to hear you.
That's not showing that youcare.
And so I think owning our rolein things that we can do
differently is a, is a hugestep.
And then, again, beingconsistent in terms of our
approach, be it good or bad, Ithink makes a difference as

(28:01):
well.

Kim Scott (28:02):
Yeah, I think that's a really important point.
I mean, I'll tell you anotherstory about a feedback fail from
me, uh, some radical candor onradical candor.
So I had just hired this guy,we'll call, I think I called him
Mitch in, in radical respect.
And Mitch, when he joined thecompany where I was working, he

(28:24):
referred to the women on histeam as girls.
And for me, this is like fingerson a chalkboard.
Uh, yeah, because it's like thewrong answer on an SAT question.
And, uh, you know, men is toboys as women is to girls.
And, but Mitch was new and I wastired of having this

(28:45):
conversation.
And, and so I kept putting itoff as we do, like, even though
I'm the author of RadicalCandor, I also am human.
And sometimes I, you know, Idon't really feel like.
Talking about the thing.
And if we go back to those fourroles, I think I was thinking of
myself as sort of, The personwho was harmed by the, by a

(29:05):
biased form of speech, you know,and, and if you are the person
harmed, uh, you get to choose aresponse.
But in this case, I was, I wasactually his boss, so I needed
to think of myself as a leaderand my job was to prevent it.
And I failed to do my job and,and this, I was working at
Google at the time, and my bosswas Sheryl Sandberg, and Mitch
went into a meeting with SherylSandberg and referred her to me.

(29:28):
on his team as girls, and unlikeme, Cheryl did not hold back.
She lit and it was a one on one,it was his first one on one
meeting with her.
And he, after the meeting, hecame into my office and he was
pale.
You know, he was, he was really,uh, upset by what had happened.
And there were two other guys inmy office.

(29:49):
who had worked for me at aprevious company.
And this was a conversation, thegirls women conversation is one
I had had.
I'd had this fight with both ofthem and, uh, and I'd finally
just persuaded them that, thatreally they were better off if
they used the word women.
And instead of apologizing toMitch, Which is what I, I should

(30:10):
have owned that I failed him ashis boss.
I looked at these two, I triedto make a joke of it.
You know, I looked at these twoguys and I said, you can thank
me now.
And cause you didn't get reamedout by, by Cheryl.
And then Mitch looked at me andwas like, what about, thanks a
lot.
You know, why didn't you tellme?
And I still wasn't owning.
So now I have failed as I'vefailed in my role, sort of as

(30:37):
his leader.
I also failed as.
To be an upstander for thepeople on his team, and now I'm
not admitting my mistake.
So now I've actually inhabitedthe role of the person who
caused harm.
So if we talk about the 4 roles,leader, upstander, person
harmed, person who caused harm,now I'm playing all, all these 4
roles in 1 conversation.
And I was like, oh, it's no bigdeal.

(30:58):
You know, don't get upset, youknow, and he was like, I.
To his credit, he said, I wouldsay when your boss's boss yells
at you for 20 minutes because ofa word choice, it is a big deal.
And it was your job, Kim, to, togive me a heads up.
And, and he was right in that,in that case.
So there's, like, all thesedifferent, uh, ways of

(31:20):
identifying, like, what gets inthe way of radical respect.
And by the way.
Radical.
You said something before, Dean,that I think is important.
Like, there's two definitions ofrespect.
One definition is something youhave to earn.
Like, I have to earn yourrespect for me as a writer by
writing, and by editing, and bywriting something good, not just

(31:42):
Something I, um, whipped out,not just a first draft.
But there's another, there's asecond definition of respect.
And this is really what I'mtalking about when I talk about
radical respect.
That's the unconditional regardthat we owe each other for our
shared humanity.
I owe it to each of you to, toregard who you are, uh, to

(32:05):
regard, uh, to have regard foryour emotions, for your
backgrounds.
Uh, and, and for how you'reliving your life.
Like, there's this sort ofunconditional regard that we owe
each other what we, we owe it toeach other to, to honor each
other's individuality and thatis not something you have to

(32:25):
earn.
And so.
We can have a disagreement.
You can hold me accountable fora mistake I made.
You can tell me you think I'mwrong about something and still
show me that kind ofunconditional respect.
And that's really what, what I'mtrying to get at with, with
radical respect, that kind of.

Yeah.
And I'm, and I'm struck by, asyou, as you're talking him, just
again, the, the huge focus andall you've given voice to it in
different ways, the level ofself awareness is recall, but
then they were putting it.
We're putting it out to theothers, right?
We're focusing on the otherindividual in the conversation.
That's really what empathy isabout, is being able to, in real
time, evaluate in, you know, theart of how is this other person

(33:06):
feeling, responding, reacting,and how are you playing a role
in that interaction with them?
And you gave voice to thatclearly, both, all of you.
So I just wanted to kind of namethat.
Um, and also Dean, I, we brushedover quickly, I said it, but I
mean, for you, you know, you're,we don't know each other very
well at all, and you've openedup a lot of vulnerability, uh,
and just, you know, sincerecondolences to you and your

(33:27):
family about your father.
Thank you.
Yes.
And even being here in thisconversation, there's a lot of,
a lot of courage and speaks toyour resilience as a, as a
person that you're here andhonoring that.
And I, I want to just take amoment to To acknowledge that,
so.

Absolutely.
Absolutely.

And also, Tamla, just, you know, you kind of give
a voice to this transition.
I mean, you mentioned, back toyour own self awareness, uh,
one, amazing journey as aleader, but you're now embarking
on a first time CEO role in avery influential organization
that has a voice and isamplifying you.
And to your credit, you are anAfrican American CEO, woman CEO,

(34:04):
right?
I mean, that's amazing,incredible.
So, I mean, you talk about just.
You as the person, but then alsowhat do you want to build?
What's the culture?
What's the, what do you, what doyou build?
What are you cultivating there?
I'd love to hear a bit about howyou're doing this differently
versus where you were in the, inthe CHRO side.
I'll come back to you as well,Dean, on that because I know
you're transitioning out ofpeople, quote unquote, but into

(34:26):
business.
So I'd love for you to riff onthat.

For me, I'm trying not to be enamored with
the title, but more so investedin the impact of the work.
Um, and I get to do leadershipdevelopment and help, you know,
influence the change ofleadership through the work that
I do, which is something thathas been near and dear to me, my
entire journey in, in corporateAmerica.

(34:52):
And so for me, I am sopassionate about like leaving
the world better than I foundit.
For giving a voice, um, and aface to the voiceless seemingly,
um, to let, letting people knowthat difference does not mean,
um, a degradation.
Difference is, you know, uh,should be, so it should be a
celebration, if you will.

(35:13):
And that people of difference,and I think about believing
African American female, I, andI say this often, I am a
reflection, not the exception.
There are so many othertalented, You know, you know,
diverse individuals, AfricanAmerican individuals, et cetera,
who probably are maybe smarter,et cetera, than me that that we

(35:35):
just have to give voice to andcreate opportunities at the
inclusion of everybody, not atthe exclusion of anybody.
And so, you know, my remit isto, again, help change the face
of leadership and in doing so,making sure that we have an
ecosystem of programs andservices that help expose.

(35:55):
Develop and position, you know,women, for instance, to be
promoted, um, and to progress.
Um, if you think about kind ofthis, you know, the changing of
demographics in the, in theworld, you know, and women are
becoming more educated and, and,you know, there's a Browning of
America and things like that.
So there's so much going on.
In the world that we live in,and we just have to make sure in

(36:16):
my role that there is anawareness that we're here and
that we are prepared to assumethose roles.
So I'm so invested in the workthat I don't want to be
distracted by the level or thetitle because I've been there
and it doesn't bring peace anddoesn't bring you happiness.
I want to be a part of it.
Totally invested in the work,and that's what I'm working on,

(36:38):
and I'm very fortunate that, youknow, Linkage has been around 35
years, SHRM 75 years, to be in aposition to be able to shape and
influence the workplaces of thefuture through the work that I
get to do with organizations andleveraging everything that I've
learned to this point, and thatI'm still learning to, to help
make the workplaces, theworkforce, the workforce.

(36:59):
You know, just better than itdid, than it's ever been.
And so that's what I'm focusedon, but it's exciting.
I said, you know, I've been aCHRO, um, pretty much, you know,
for a while, and that work wasvery rewarding.
And I think it's just a naturalextension of what I've done as a
CHRO, but I get to do it on abroader scale and I get to
operate in my purpose and mypassion.

(37:21):
For a phenomenal organization.

And you mentioned earlier about, you
know, in that, in that moment ofyour own mortality, about doing
things differently, was thatspecific to your personal life
or to that professional pursuitand then what you're doing now
or is, is, or both?

Both, both.
Um, I I'm 52 years old, so Istill, I think I have a lot left
in me, so I don't want to stopdoing what I'm doing.
I think I have a lot to offer.
I mean, the experiences thatI've gone through, you know,
Being a first generation collegegraduate, I've been working
since I was 15.
I was with GE for 20 years,lived and worked on the
continent of Africa for fiveyears, head of HR for waste

(37:55):
management.
And then lastly, USAA.
I've had a phenomenal career andI've learned so much and there's
still so much for me to give.
And so my prayer was when I wason, um, um, lying on my back,
Going to the ER was, you know,I'm going to do things
differently, but I still want tooperate in my purpose and my

(38:15):
divine, my divine purpose.
And I know that there's morework for me to do, but how I do
it needs to change.
So it was more so a professionaland a personal realization that
something had to change, butthat I know that I've been
called to do this work and Iwant to be able to do it in a
way that's going to Not have tohave any compromise or sacrifice

(38:37):
my well being, but still be ableto contribute to a greater good.

Bravo.
That's what I have to say.
We're going to explore thismore.
Dean, I know you're in a similartransition right now, a little
bit different, but I mean, we'dlove to hear a bit about what's
inspired that for you.
And there's some thematics alongthe way too.

And Tamla, it's just great to see you lit up.
Um, you know, we were togetherjust before you left USA.
And, uh, just, just great to seeyou lit up.
You know, we've known each otherfor a bit, but I, uh, yeah, it's
great to see you lit up.
Thank you.
My friend.
Um, so, yeah, I've, uh, I'mactually approaching 60, um,

(39:20):
next year.
So in January I'll be 60.
Holy smoke.
How'd that happen?
you wear?
Well, I 60 and I, you know,embracing it and loving it.
I just, I, I started to thinkabout life, you know, like, um,
who I was at zero.
And 20 years old was reallydifferent as you can imagine all

(39:42):
of you at zero into 20.
You know, the transformationthat happens from zero to 20 is
pretty substantial.
I thought about like, um, when Iwas 20 years old and then who I
was at 40.
Like those two people, you know,are very similar, but very, this
incredible experiences, Imarried Mark, we've got a
daughter and I had, I mean, mycareer took off and all of these

(40:06):
things.
And when, you know, 20, I waslike, you know, we're out of
college and selling diapers innursing homes in Louisiana.
So I have like, I, you know, itwas just not the world that I
imagined and where I am today.
And I, um, and then, you know,then let's say pick up at 40 and
40 to 60.
So my life, you know, from 40 to60 has been glorious.

(40:30):
And, and it's been, you know,and who I was at 40 and who I am
at 60 are also just this moreenlightened and, you know,
learning person.
And I hope I've gained a littlewisdom over that time.
So when I think of my life inthese 20 year things.
The difference between 40 and60, who am I going to be between
60 and 80?

(40:50):
And it's likely, you know, thisshocking realization, we're
probably going to live to 100.
I'm like, holy smoke! Like, youknow, 80 to 100, possibly, and
100 to something else, maybe.
So, if I'm thinking about, youknow, these 20 year chunks of
life, and we're thinking aboutlike that, Like the difference
between 20 and 40 and 60 and 80,all the things that happened in

(41:14):
my life, so I'm still lookingforward to what is the, what's
going to happen between 60probably an 80 and 100.
And then, um, and so I've beenthinking a lot about that.
So I wanted to, Put more thingsin my backpack.
Always tell about people aboutthese are the learning years,
not the earning years, and kindof win that moment.
I guess I'm not done with mylearning years.
And I feel like I've really donethat head of HR job in beautiful

(41:39):
places with wonderful people.
And I, how do I do somethingthat terrifies me and that I'm,
you know, So different.
So I'm not ready to stoplearning.
So I intentionally posted onLinkedIn, I am done with the
head of HR job.
Cause everyone kept saying, Hey,you want another head of HR job?
Hey, I'm like, yes, I love thatjob so much, but because I love

(42:04):
it and because I'm good at it, Iwant to do something else.
And so I had to erase thechalkboard and like blow it up
in a big way and to stop theflow.
And I, uh, So I'm really excitedabout next and, um, what I'm
learning and, um, the newchallenges and this new team and
this new way of thinking about,you know, what's possible and

(42:26):
helping people be successful,you know, in their companies and
lives and careers.
And looking at this holisticconcept of, you know, we're
going to help you hire amazingpeople.
We're going to help you kind ofset up an amazing organization.
And the third thing is we'regoing to help you engage in
human being.
And I think sometimes we look atthese as three individual things
and I don't know that that's whyI am engaged in this moment.

(42:49):
Like we want to help you do allthree things.
And I, If I can help people, youknow, I have a phrase like, um,
that I've learned over my timewith Patagonia that I firmly
believe, and it's the onlyquestion I ask on the employee
engagement survey now, and Ihate the word engagement by the
way, employee experience.
Let's, let's go there.
And then everything, totalrewards, engagement, I'm ready.

(43:10):
Anyhow, let's talk about that,my whole concept on total
rewards again another day.
But this question, as aresulting worth in this company,
I believe that it gives backequal or greater value to my
life.
As a result of working for thiscompany, I believe that it gives
back equal or greater value tomy life.

(43:31):
That's what people want fromcompanies.
I want you to give back equal orgreater valuable for what I'm
putting in.
And it shouldn't be extractive.
It shouldn't be less.
And I'm not even expecting to bemore.
It should be equal or greatervalue.
And I think that I found thatthere isn't a single answer to
that question.
There's a lot of answers around.
To my life, that I have a betterrelationship with my spouse,

(43:52):
that I have more time with mychildren, that I can eat healthy
food, that I can take care of mybody and not be so stressed out
that you take me away in anambulance at the end of my work
day, that I can, like, thoseexpectations of work has been to
extract as much from humanbeings as possible during the
industrial age, and I thinkthere's a new concept that we're
going to live to be 80 and 100,and to do that, we're going to

(44:14):
have to need to treat humans somuch better As these really
precious people that we are,then we've been doing and the
whole concept of what we'redoing as heads of HR and heads
of people have to shift from howwe putting more to people's
lives than we're extracting.
And that's, that is my best fromnow until a hundred.

I want to comment on that, Dane, because
it's so profound.
I think gone are the days wherepeople are trying to integrate
how they live into how theywork.
It is like, okay, I need tointegrate how I work and how I
live because my life is takingpriority.
And I think that has been atransformation and I'm raising
two Gen Z's and they are allabout their quality of life and
they have no interest in workingthe way we did.

(44:57):
Or the, doing the type of workthat we did because of what they
saw.
And if I have any regrets, it's,it's, it's the time that I
missed with my children.
Uh, I have a, you know, I have a25 year old and a 15 year old.
And when I grew up being caughtfirst college, you know, first
generation college graduate andgrew up with very humble
beginnings, I thought that myworking and earning was, you

(45:21):
know, Kind of the, the act ofcaring, showing them how much I
loved them and how much I caredbecause they had things, you
know, they had things and, and,and being a working mom and I
was traveling a lot, I had thisdeal with them.
If I would to be gone for, youknow, five days or more, they
would get these amazing gifts.
Right.
And so they didn't cry when Iwas gone for five days.

(45:41):
In fact, they wanted me to stayjust five days so that they can
get an amazing gift.
Right.
But I think about the thingsthat I missed with my daughter.
We are now very close now, but Imissed a lot of time with her,
but I was working to give themwhat I thought was a better life
than what I had.
But I, that table has turned nowand you can do both and versus

(46:01):
either or, and you should nothave to make their trade offs,
but the sacrifices there.
How do we integrate?
Work and life and provideflexibility and adaptability so
that people can bring their fullselves to work and be able to
contribute, um, at a higherlevel.
And so, um, and I've also, youknow, going through this
transformation that I've gonethrough, um, I had several

(46:25):
friends of mine, be it mentees,colleagues, et cetera, who had
traumatic health scares.
And you know, like, I mean, and,and, and changes in their life,
some ultimately resulting indeaths that really was an eye
opener for me.
And I was like, I can't do this.
I can't do this.
And there's this old saying inthe African American community.
There was this gospel song.

(46:46):
I never seen a hearse pulling aU Haul.
So all this stuff that we haveand that we are acquiring, we
cannot take any of it with us.
And focusing on experiences,Dean, versus the acquisition of
assets and things like that hasjust changed my perspective.
And it's been, it's been a lifejourney, but I'm so glad I'm
here at this place.
And I think I'm a better person.

(47:08):
I know that I'm a better wife.
I'm a better mom and ultimatelya better leader.
for the experiences that I'vegone through.
And I don't regret any of theexperiences that I've gone
through because I am who I ambecause of those things.
But I'm now at a different placeand I think I am much better
given where I am in life.
And so it's been an evolution,but I'm so glad I'm here.

I've been thinking about a concept that Mr.
wrote, but then also that YvonChouinard from Patagonia
adopted, and I always thought itwas from Yvon, he said it so
frequently that I forgot it, butI've been thinking personally
about how do I represent this,and that is, um, the, uh, Um,
the master or the minister ofthe art of living is a person

(47:50):
who is at work and play and noone can tell the difference and
neither can they.
And so I don't, if you watch theshow Severance, you can tell
what actually happens when youseparate work and life, which is
a massive disaster.
And, uh, so it's not possible.
And I, you know, if we can getto this place, and you can't
just wave a wand and say thesethings.
These are things that have to besystemically thought about in

(48:12):
terms of the relationship withwork.
In, in order to, in order tospend more time with your
children, you need to thinkabout, you know, affordable
child care.
In order for your, for, makesure there's an equal balance
between men and women, you needto make sure all your men are
taking paternity leave.
These are systemic things, andif you can give the greatest
gift, which is your betterrelationship with your family,

(48:32):
Whatever that is, you know,spouse, partner, whoever,
children, if, and a longerhealthy life, if that's the
gift, the two things you getfrom as a matter of working,
what a, like,

[noise] (48:45):
yeah,

is it, what a, what a incredibly different place
this would be.
And, um, yeah, go ahead.

Kim Scott (48:53):
I think it's so important that we learn to think
about work and life as thingsthat are integrated, not, not,
not competing with, with oneanother.
And the more we can think ofinvesting in our companies and
investing in our people insteadof extracting from them, the
more, the easier thatintegration becomes.

(49:16):
And, and you're right, it has tohappen sort of at a systemic
level, but also at a, at apersonal level.
I remember.
When my kids were little, I havetwins who are 15 now, but when
they were in preschool, I wentto pick them up at preschool and
I had, you know, I had a shortwindow of time to go get them
and get them back home before Ihad to jump on a call.

(49:39):
And as we were driving back,they started fighting with each
other and I was getting more andmore, I was having a bad
parenting moment.
I was getting enraged.
I pulled the car over and I gotout and I said, it's dangerous
for me to be driving right now.
I'm so mad at you two.
Like walked around the car andthen got back in the car and

(50:00):
they were, you know, their eyeswere like saucers.
Oh, gosh, mom has lost it.
And I got home and I was filledwith regret that I had to get on
this call because I felt like Ineeded to like clear the air
with them.
But anyway, I had no choice.
So I got on this call and I wastalking to this person.
And giving them excellent adviceabout how to resolve conflict.

(50:23):
And both of my kids came and satdown on either side of me and
you could feel their shouldersrelaxing and, and just like the
taking that meeting was actuallythe best thing that could have
happened in that moment.
Uh, and so sometimes work givesyou, work can, can sort of heal
trauma in your personal life,and your personal life can heal

(50:46):
trauma at work.
And, and when everything goesthe way it, it can, it doesn't,
doesn't have to go this way.
But when we're conscious abouttrying to design things this
way, it all works togetherreally well.

Yeah.
I think.
So man, this conversation, we'rejust, we're almost at the tail
end of this conversation.
I feel like we've just started,and I mean, I probably asked the
least amount of questions in anyRebels episode that have ever
happened.
For Rebels!

[noise] (51:13):
For Rebels!

I love it.
I think we can spend anotherfour hours, so we should
probably do, this is part, thisis episode two, we'll have to do
episode one to use it.
Next.
You know, I'll do it again.
And there's so many things thatyou should, but one thing I just
want to comment on, one is weare moving into a different
model of mutuality, right?
And this is something thatyou've given voice to as a
theme, Ken, with, you know,whether we're playing, whether

(51:33):
it's conscious or unconscious ofharm or being harmed, there's an
element of that, but also toyour point, Dean, the
relationship that we have inthese different environments and
what we're learning and just howwe integrate.
Well, you're exactly right.
And I think it's fascinating.
Just as a point of reference, Ihave done.
As a personal share for amoment, I've done over 50 of
these episodes, these liveRebels formats.

(51:55):
I have never, this is the firsttime actually sitting in my
childhood home doing it.
I've been actually in New Jerseywhere I grew up in the dining
room with my mom's house doingthis episode.
And so it's a particularlyinteresting little mirror of
that moment.
And to your point, Dean, I am,you know, an early forties
parent and having thisrealization of how does, you
know, how has this all workedtogether for this family?

(52:17):
And I just what comes up for mein a moment, just to just to
kind of integrate all that youshared and back to this topic
that you kind of gave voice tobeing fearful and being
concerned and being uncertainthat so many people in the world
are experiencing that.
And yet, we are all really at acore level at a soul level at a
human level.
Very much the same.

(52:37):
We all want to be respected.
We all want to be valued.
We all want to be seen.
We all want to feel safe.
We want to be connected.
We want to have purpose in ourlives and our work.
And that is transcendent ofevery attribute, every culture,
every experience, every society,country, political, religious.
That is Just what it is.
And the more that we can tapinto that in our workplaces, in

(53:00):
our communities, in our placesof, of, you know, just systems,
we can create a better world.
We can create a more radicallycandid, radically kind,
radically respectful, work.
Environment, Workplace, Culture,Society at large and that's why
this work that you do, Kim, isso important and why the work
that each of you, leadingorganizations, leading teams,
building cultures is soimportant and I just want to

(53:22):
take a moment and honor each ofyou and acknowledge that because
the work that you do matters andyou matter and for all the
audience that's here doing that,you matter and this is a really,
really important time for eachof us to remember that you
matter.
And to, and to be that in everyinteraction because it's the
micro moments that do that.
And I'm, I know, I'm, I, Ididn't speak much this time, so
I had to close it with a sermonand you know, you're welcome

man.
Amen.
Amen.

you're welcome to share a final thought on
this, but I typically like towrap it up a, a few minutes off
the hour to give you your timeback.
But if you wanna make anotherstatement and I put a period or
exclamation park on this, anyoneof you can do it.
But I just wanted to share thatand, you know, truly appreciate
all of you for being the rebelsof the heart that you are.
And

Kim Scott (54:02):
I love, I love what you're saying, because I think
you're right.
We all do want this, somethingthat is not exactly the same,
but very similar.
We want these kinds ofenvironments where the strength
of the individual is the team,the strength of the team is the
individual.
And I think, so what gets in theway of that kind of radical
respect?
I don't want to end on a downer,but I think if we can identify

(54:23):
the problem and break it downinto its component parts, we can
leave on a note of optimismbecause we know how to solve it.
Solve it.
And I think there's, there's amillion things that get in the
way, but I'm gonna boil it downto three.
Bias, prejudice and bullying.
And I think one of the problemsis that we often conflate these
things as though they're thesame thing.
And so I wanna leave folks witha simple definition of each and

(54:44):
a way to respond to eachdifferently.
Bias is not meaning it's reallyunconscious bias.
I'm talking it.
Prejudice is meaning it.
So bias is not meaning it.
Prejudice is meaning it.
Prejudice is a very consciouslyheld belief, usually refer.
reflecting and incorporatingsome kind of unfair and
inaccurate stereotype.
And bullying is being mean.

(55:05):
It's not about a belief,conscious or unconscious.
And so if we can, and very oftenwhen we notice, I bet
everybody's had one of thoseuncomfortable moments where
somebody says or does somethingthat's so cringeworthy, you
don't know what to say, so youdon't say anything.
And then you wake up at three inthe morning kicking yourself.
Ah, why didn't I say anything?
So here's what to say when youdon't what to say.

(55:26):
If you think it's bias.
Try an I statement.
I don't think you meant that theway it sounded.
You know, it kind of holds amirror up.
However, if you use an Istatement with prejudice, it's
not going to work because theperson believes that thing.
So you need an it statement.
An it statement can appeal tothe law, a company policy, an HR
policy or common sense.

(55:46):
An it statement draws a linebetween One person's freedom to
believe whatever they want, butthey can't impose that belief on
you.
So it is illegal to, it is an HRviolation to, or it's ridiculous
to, if you want to appeal tocommon sense.
Whereas, whereas if it'sbullying, you don't want to use
an it's not.
Because a bully is going to tryto kick past it.

(56:08):
You don't want to use an Istatement because you don't want
to bring a bully closer.
My daughter explained this to mein third grade.
She was getting bullied on theplayground and I was encouraging
her to say, I feel sad when youblah, blah, blah.
And my daughter bangs her fiston the table.
And she said, Mom, They aretrying to make me feel sad.
Why would I tell them theysucceeded?
I'm like, Oh, that's a goodpoint.

(56:29):
So you want to use statement.
You can't talk to me like that.
That kind of pushes them away oreven a you question.
Like, where'd you get thatshirt?
Uh, now you're not takingwhatever they're dishing out at
you.
You're in an active stance.
So that's, those are somethoughts about how to move us
towards this environment that Ithink we all want.

Thank you, Kim, for teaching that lesson.
Go ahead, Tamla, you want to saysomething?

I was just saying that I think we've gotten
away from using diversity as astrength.
And when we think differently,it's become so polarizing.
And I think one of the things ora few of the things that's led
to that is the public display ofdiscourse and instability in our
world.
And that's what our childrensee.
That seemingly we condone andthings of that nature.

(57:13):
I just want us to get to the,get back to the basics of being
human and treating each otherwith dignity and respect and
seek to understand why peoplebelieve and say and do the
things that they do, because youjust don't know.
A person's life experience.
And sometimes we take soundbitesand snippets and form an
opinion, and that becomes anarrative, but without knowing

(57:36):
context.
And I just want us to just takea step back and humanize
interactions and be civil, um,in those interactions.
And it's not saying that we'regoing to always agree.
We probably will not.
There's so many people in theworld and everybody has a
different experience or they'recoming at it at a different
point of view.
It's just being human,humanizing interaction, seek to

(57:56):
understand, um, and, and becivil, publicly and otherwise,
because our children arewatching.
And if we don't start changingthe way we interact with each
other, I'm just so afraid ofwhat the world is going to
become based on what wecurrently see.
And so just become human andseek to understand and just be
civil.
That's what I would leave youwith.

Well, this has been Dean, you want to say
something?
Go ahead.

No, that's been said.
I was just thinking the conceptreally quick.
Like, uh, um, There, there can'tbe two hot people in the room at
the same time.
Like, someone like really upset.
And I just always think aboutlike, um, when the, when this
intensity is really high, the,the thing isn't to match it.

(58:42):
The thing is to like do what youcan to bring it down.
And I just feel like, you know,in these moments,'cause you
don't know where they're comingfrom or whatever.
Right.
The worst thing you can do is,you know, when someone comes in
hot, you come in hot too becauseyou get two, two hot, crazy
people.
So I.
My view is like, um, how do you,in those moments, how do you
bring the temperature down, andthe, you know, this, what we

(59:06):
talked about earlier,thermostat, not thermometer, in
the room, and I, I think if weall just brought the temperature
down and realize we're all justhumans, but it's this, you know,
um, Fire, fire, fire, fire,fire, and everything just gets
incendiary.
So I just feel like, how can we,I think we all need to bring the
temperature down just a littlebit.
And uh, and you know, when youfeel it, then realize, okay,

(59:31):
what can I do to bring thetemperature down in this
situation?

Well said.
Well, I just want to thank youall again.
Thank you for being here, forsharing, sharing who you are,
sharing your expertise, sharingyour hearts.
You are truly Rebels With AHeart, now part of the
community.
Welcome officially.
Thank you to our audience asalways.
And just as reiterate, we arehere, I'm here to support all of
you and whatever you're pursuingand just grateful that you're
doing this work in the world andwe are.

(59:55):
So thank you.
Thank you for having us.

Thank you so much.
Have a good one.
Thank you all.
Bye bye.

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