[Disclaimer: The opinions in this episode are of my own accord and DO NOT reflect opinions of any respective organization or institution.]
Hey everyone! I am gratefully joined by Michael Creek, a goalie for FC Tulsa in the United Soccer League.
We dive into topics about life as a professional athlete, the identity struggle that athletes face, the psychology of being a professional athlete, and the state of soccer in the United States.
I hope you enjoy the episode!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi everyone, my name is Nathan Merkel.
Welcome to the Ivory Tower podcast where we talk a little
bit about sport and society. What sport looks like within the
global context, what it looks like within the American
context, what we think about sport, how we experience sport,
why? How do we consume sport.
I really hope you enjoy the following episode and I hope you
(00:22):
will continue to listen down theroad.
Thanks. OK everyone, thank you very much
for joining me for another episode of Rebuilding the Ivory
Tower. This is a episode talking about
sport within society. I'm super excited about this
(00:44):
episode. I'm joined by Michael Creek, who
is a professional goalie in the USL for FC Tulsa.
Hi, how's it going? Thanks for having me on.
Yeah, wonderful. I'm super pumped about this
episode. I really want to talk to you
about sort of your experience playing with FC Tulsa, being a
goalie, what that's like, how it's impacted you, how to change
the way you view, I guess, sportand life in general.
(01:06):
But I really want to start off, if you could just paint us a
picture of just your general background.
I know you play for FC Tulsa. I'd love to hear like how you
got there and what you experienced on a day-to-day
basis. Yeah.
So from Saint Louis, went to Limburg High School with you
actually, yeah, play together a little bit.
So not very long, but it was honestly pretty, pretty cool
(01:30):
time to be a freshman with the varsity guys.
But yeah, went to Limburg High School and then from there
played at Missouri State for fartoo long.
Had a red shirt season and a COVID season, but eventually got
my Four Seasons playing. And then from there, I played a
season with Saint Louis City too, their inaugural year, and
(01:53):
then was fortunate enough to be the third keeper for Saint Louis
City during their inaugural year, and then the last.
And then I've spent the the lasttwo seasons at FC Tulsa.
Yeah, that's awesome. What was your experience playing
with or at least trying out for those teams?
Honestly, it was kind of just a,a crazy process because I guess
(02:16):
I never from the very beginning,like never had like a very
traditional like straightforwardroute into college into
professional sport. I the longer I'm in the game,
the more I realize very few people actually do have a
straight path. Like the guys that are playing
and the guys that do make a career out of playing soccer.
(02:38):
It's the ones that can overcome adversity.
The ones that have just like kind of a crazy story of they
had an opportunity that took theopportunity.
I mean, I think about even beingrecruited by Missouri State.
It was like late my senior year of high school.
I had like one Division One offer.
(02:59):
It was from like Western Illinois University and I really
wasn't wild about it. I had a coach reach out to
Missouri State and one of their keepers quit after the fall
season they needed to bring in or after the spring season they
needed to bring in 1/3. And luckily the goalie coach for
(03:19):
Missouri State was from Saint Louis and was home for winter
break. He watched me train during that
break. And then I guess I did well
enough that they invited me to avisit and then gave me like an
offer and I committed it like February, my Senior High School
like crazy. And then even like my path at
(03:40):
Missouri State, I registered in my freshman year.
I backed up the starter of my sophomore year.
He graduated, and then it was kind of like, all right, you're
kind of the next guy up. Can you take this opportunity?
And I was fortunate enough that I was able to.
And my plan was OK. I was going to play 4 1/2 years,
(04:01):
play my red shirt season, and then I was going to go pursue
professional soccer. Well, 2020 rolls around and the
world shuts down and season getspushed and my plan goes
completely out the window. At that point, I was very burnt
out with soccer. The environment that I was in
(04:23):
was a high pressure environment,one where performance meant a
lot and there was a lot of pressure put on the goalkeepers
as well. Constant competition guys coming
in from all over the world. We had a predominantly foreign
roster and I just, yeah, I wasn't happy.
And honestly, like I would probably saved like my playing
(04:45):
career because it was me and like a couple handful of other
goalies back in Saint Louis, like my boys and shout out to
Tyler Doll and Michael Harry. But we would just go up to
soccer park and just train for like hour, 2 hours like every
single day. And I realized like, oh, like
(05:06):
I'm not falling out of love withsoccer.
Like I could do this every single day.
I'm, I was just like burned out with the environment that I was
in. And once COVID settled down, we
were able to go back to school beyond campus and like the
season started up again. That's where I was like, OK, how
can I change my mentality going into training?
How can I find joy in this again?
And I was able to probably have my 2 best seasons in the that
(05:31):
spring we went to the Sweet 16 and then said AA tournament,
still the farthest that MissouriState's ever gone.
And then we were able to when regular season in our conference
tournament my my last season playing and unfortunately we got
knocked out by Creighton, but inthe first round.
But it was still like, yeah, like my last three seasons
(05:51):
playing were my favorite. And then from there, it's like,
OK, I want to keep playing, but I don't know where an
opportunity is going to come from.
I might have to go to open tryouts.
And we kind of touched a little bit about it before we started
recording, but I was actually ina car accident right after my
(06:13):
collegiate season ended. It was Thanksgiving break so I
think like a week after our season ended me and my friends
were going to get food late at night and there's a three-way
stop. Stopped, looked, didn't see
anyone, started to turn left andthen over the Crest I see
headlights and a car blew through a stop sign and T boned
(06:36):
us going like 55 miles an hour in a residential area.
And that car accident was kind of the the catalyst of my faith,
but it was also just kind of an incredible moment that really
put everything in perspective. My future wife and my best
friend were in the back seat andthey were unconscious.
They had to go to the hospital. And All in all they were OK.
(06:58):
They didn't need surge or anything.
But my friend who was sitting inthe seat behind me ended up
spending three nights in the hospital, partially collapsed,
long broken ribs, and I was perfectly OK.
And a week after that car accident, I was invited out to a
try a tryout with Saint Louis City too.
(07:19):
And like, if it was me that likeif it was my door that got hit,
then I probably wouldn't be a professional soccer player.
But like went through the like 2phases of tryouts, got offered
a, a contract with Saint Louis City 2.
Just so blessed to be like a part of that and like represent
(07:40):
my hometown and especially like inaugural year.
And like, I think about like, myinitial plan was like, I'm going
to play 4 1/2 years and then like go try and play pro.
Well, Saint Louis City 2 didn't exist in 4 1/2 years, the time
that I was supposed to graduate.And it was, it was God's timing
of my career. It just perfectly aligned where
(08:01):
COVID happened. I got an extra year of
eligibility and by the time thatI finished using up all that
eligibility, the team came into existence and we had an awesome
team. I was able to be a part of some
some great players that are still playing for the first team
at Saint Louis. And we've made it to the MLS
Next Pro final and unfortunatelylost to Columbus.
(08:24):
But it was a incredible experience and was fortunate
enough to earn a contract with the first team the following
season. And to be able to train with
Roman Berkey for over a year washonestly a dream come true.
Like if you told high school me that I was going to be able to
train with Roman Berkey, the guythat I was watching like playing
(08:44):
the Champions League against Real Madrid, like I've told you,
you're lying, you know? So like incredible experience.
I learned so much in that year of just not even like
goalkeeping standpoint, but likewhat it looks like to be a
professional, what it looks liketo show up and every single day
have the right mentality, do thework.
(09:06):
And like the way it sounds so cliche, like you hear it all the
time. But like people can like talk
about these are the things they need to do.
But like, what does it actually look like put into practice?
And I think like I was surrounded by a couple of like
really top professionals. I mean, Ben Lunt, who has been
able to step up, Roman is currently hurt and Ben's been
(09:28):
able to step in and do like a great job.
And that is a testament to his character.
And he has been preparing and doing the right thing this
entire time for when an opportunity comes up.
And so just being around Ben andand Roman and seeing like this
is how you do the right thing. So when an opportunity comes,
you're able to take the opportunity has really just
(09:50):
helped me. And like, so the season ends,
the club doesn't take my option.I'm going to be a free agent.
And the kind of the decision wasI'm going to look at USL champ
teams, try to establish myself there, make a name for myself
and then hopefully get back to the MLS.
And the offseason goes on and goes on and I'm you're having
(10:13):
weekly calls with your agent andnothing really seems to be
materializing. And it gets to January and be it
in mind, like most USL Championship pre season start
like the last week of January and it's like mid January and I
have like nothing. And FC Tulsa is the only team in
(10:34):
the USL Championship that like doesn't have any goalies signed.
And so like I'm cold mage and like, dude, you have to get me
into like Tulsa. I don't know, like I'll go like
open trial, whatever it needs tobe like I need to get in there.
And so luckily he was able to get a hold of the coach, got
invited to pre season with the team, spent three weeks on trial
(10:57):
living in a hotel. My wife's like in Saint Louis,
packing up our apartment, not knowing like where we're going
to move the it's actually crazy.So I signed on like the Tuesday
of it was like February something.
It was a Tuesday. Our apartment lease was up on
the Thursday and then we've moved down to, she moved down to
(11:19):
Tulsa and then U-Haul on like the Saturday.
And like, that's The thing is there's so many scenario, like
so many guys in especially USL Championship, but so many guys
in like soccer like that is likethey have a similar story of
like, I don't know where I like I'm going to be.
Like it has I don't know where I'm going to live next year.
(11:40):
Like being a free agent in the offseason might be one of the
most stressful scenarios for an athlete just because there's so
much uncertainty. And it's not like you can even
like send out like resumes that you can send video.
But really at the end of the day, it comes to like a coach
watching you or like a coach having like an opinion of like
he's valuable enough that like I'm going to take a chance and
(12:02):
like I'm going to bring him in on tryout for vitamin pre season
or I'm going to like form a contract.
You know, like there's just so much like, out of your hand.
That's a phenomenal story. Thank you for showing that.
I guess First off, I want to sayI'm very grateful and glad to
hear that you know, you're safe from that car accident.
That's terrible to hear, but good that something good came
from it. I guess that that you got that
(12:24):
call a week later and sort of things just sort of
materialized. And I think fate has a as a
crazy way of dealing with things.
And I think it just sort of put you on the right path, I guess.
And that's really cool that it also transitioned our fueled the
fire for your faith as well, which is really cool to hear.
And I do remember when you said that your collegiate team was
(12:44):
majority international. I remember I played at the NAI
level was nowhere near what, what you competed at, but like
90% of the team or the opponent players were from England,
Ireland or Scotland or somewhereelse.
And I'm, I was always curious oflike, where do the US people go?
You know, like, because I feel like the whole league was
foreigners and I felt like they,they were all foreign.
(13:06):
And I'm like, where do the US like where, where are we at?
And I'm curious if you like feltthe same way.
Like I felt like I was just competing in the US but against
England in a sense. So I'm just curious what you'd
what your opinion on is that? No, honestly, like more and more
collegiate sport is becoming like predominantly international
(13:26):
based. Especially a lot of these
college coaches are recruiting with like guys who especially
like in England, they've got theapprenticeship And so once
they're like 18 and they're not given a professional contract
with the first team, they just kind of like, I don't know what
to do. So these coaches are like, come
to America, you'll get an education, you'll play and then
(13:48):
you'll be able to go pro in America and they kind of sell on
a dream. A lot of them have never heard
of these cities in the United States and they think that
they're just moving to like Miami or like LA, but it's
really Springfield, MO, you know, like they just have no
clue geographically. And I sold a dream.
Yeah. I think my last season playing
me and the left back were American and the rest of the
(14:11):
starting lineup was foreign. And then a year after I left, I
think there was one American on the roster and he red shirt.
Wow. It's crazy.
But honestly, like, it was a really cool experience for me
because I only had to move threehours away from my hometown to
like meet people from all over the world.
Like, I had a roommate from New Zealand.
I had two other roommates from England.
(14:34):
I met guys from Italy, from Spain, actually.
Like this past offseason, my wife and I, we went to New
Zealand for a wedding. But while we were over there, we
also stopped in Sydney. The wedding was for a former
teammate. We traveled with a former
teammate and his wife who is he is Canadian.
(14:54):
I got to see an old roommate while we were in New Zealand.
Plus I got to see 2 old roommates when we were in
Australia. So like I've got friends all
over the world. I've got a group chat of kind of
like my class. And during COVID, we tried to do
Zooms and it was actually insanebecause I think there were seven
different time zones we were working with.
And like we had to forgot what time it was like maybe like 5:00
(15:19):
in like central time that we hadto meet.
And like we had like guy in Malaysia, guy in Australia, guy
in New Zealand, guy in England, guy in Finland, someone in
Colorado. Like it was literally all over
the place. But I think that is like kind of
the cool thing about collegiate sport because you can meet
people from literally everywhere.
(15:40):
And I think like that culture, like especially being like, I
was a suburban like kid that never travelled really besides
for soccer. And so like saw a hotel room in
a soccer field. So like I was so like
uncultured. And so to go to college and
there's a bunch of people with like skin fades and they're like
(16:05):
chanting, like singing songs. Like, I thought it was the
coolest thing ever, you know? And it was like, after my class
graduated and I stayed to take my extra eligibility, I had a
roommate from England. I had a roommate from Italy and
then a guy from Cleveland. And like, I learned how to make
focaccia bread and, like, would have all the other Italians over
to our apartment and, like, we have, like, focaccia nights.
(16:28):
Yeah. So like, I'm really grateful for
like, honestly kind of the college system because it was
such like a unique experience that I really like.
I got to stay pretty close to home and like, have that
incredible cultural experience. Yeah, that's really cool.
That's it. Reminds me a previous episode I
talked to an Australian that came over and played as the pun
(16:48):
on the football team and what it's what it sounds like is.
I know football is, I mean, obviously not the same sport,
not the same dynamics, but I'm curious if you think maybe other
sports are starting to go international with the way that
soccer is, because it sounds like soccer is extremely heavily
reliant upon international talent.
And I'm sure like I don't think baseball is don't think maybe
(17:11):
football. I know it's with with one
position with the punter, but that's about it.
Like, and I'm curious, do you think this sort of reliance on
international athletes, do you think that like I guess is that
good for North American soccer or do you think that's bad for
North American soccer? I mean, I think for maybe the
(17:31):
quality of soccer potentially, but it's tough because I mean,
these Americans, if they're coming through an MLS Academy,
they're signing home grown contracts.
If they're like legit players. And then like the players that
are just underneath that, that maybe are playing at a really
good like club level or played Academy and like didn't get home
grown contracts are getting likesnatched up by the top 25
(17:54):
schools like the Wake Forest, the like, you know, all the ACC
schools. And so like the rest of of these
American players I feel like arefalling in mid table at Division
One schools, maybe in like less desirable areas to live or maybe
not as sexy of like colleges to go to.
(18:16):
And I think there's been especially like the time that I
was in college, I saw like a huge influx of Scandinavian
players. And I think part of that is due
to their government like will sponsor them to come over and
get like an education. So like there in Division One
soccer, I think there's nine point something scholarships
(18:37):
that they can give like full scholarships and they can divide
those up however they want. That was when I was in college.
I might have changed, but there's like 9.1 or something
like that, full scholarships that can give to a team of like
28 guys. So like most guys are getting a
percentage of a scholarship. And so if you can bring in a
(18:57):
Scandinavian player where you don't have to incentivize giving
them athletic money and they canget academic money through like
the university and they're pretty much getting like free
education and they can play on your your team.
And usually they're a high caliber player just because I
feel like especially like the European Academy set up, I think
(19:17):
I think the US is definitely growing in that aspect,
especially with the fact that all these MLS teams now have an
Academy system, They have a NextPro system.
Like they're starting to develop, but it's only like Next
Pro is I think what, 3-4 years old now?
Like it's still way behind what Europe and all these other
(19:40):
countries have had established for years now.
A system for kids to have, like,proper training from a youth
level, not just a dad who maybe played pick up a little bit and
like, they're teaching their kidsoccer now, you know?
Yeah, I think right now, just making it more competitive is
(20:00):
just going to make everything better.
And it might be tough for Americans feeling like there's
less opportunity, but it's only going to raise the standard and
the quality of the sport. And I think at the end of the
day, that's just going to make it more competitive and lead to
more guys going from college to pro.
And that's what you eventually want to see if that's a pathway
(20:23):
that you're taking, you know? Yeah, that's wonderful that that
transitioned into follow up question when you said it sort
of raises the bar and like sort of raises the, I guess the
standard of of how North American soccer is I guess
programmed how we coach it, why the rigor, the the the challenge
that's associated. I'm curious, do you think our
current youth system or maybe the youth system that you went
(20:45):
through, do you think that prepared you for where you're at
now or do you think maybe the youth system right now needs
change? I'm curious what your thoughts
are. Yeah, honestly, I go back and
forth because I think I never went to like I never played for
an Academy. I never played for like a big
club. I played high school and I
(21:06):
played for like a club team thatlike we would always like be
competing in the state final. We made regionals one year.
But like we, yeah, like I playedfor a small club, you know, I
maybe took a less traditional path, but I wouldn't change that
because I think that less traditional path made me who I
am. And there was a definitely like
(21:26):
adversity. There was definitely times where
like I didn't know if I was going to like make it to like
next level. But I think like that prepared
me mentally to then get the nextlevel and get to the level that
I'm at now. I think maybe from a technical
standpoint, that's where I did lack and I was a later developer
in that aspect. I was very fortunate at Missouri
(21:47):
State. We had a just a really
professional environment. We had a really good group of
guys. I learned a ton about soccer and
like tactics. I learned a ton about just like
developing and like goalkeeping there.
And that was a huge jump. And then it's just as one jump
to a next. And then like at City 2, like
(22:08):
learned a ton about just a different style of goalkeeping.
The goalkeeper coaches German and so and then both like Roman
and Ben are so Roman is Swiss but played in the Bundesliga,
Ben is German. So like just the style is very
like all about like efficiency and how can you just be like
(22:29):
very neutral and like reactive without maybe like guessing or
like leaning a certain way. And so, yeah, honestly, I think
there definitely needs to be a higher standard in coaching.
I think from like a technical standpoint and in youth sports,
I think across the board, I think there is like academies
(22:51):
and there are setups that are very yeah, like they, they
provide exactly what kids need to grow and develop as players.
But I do think there is something special about like the
the high school soccer system and like honestly, like there's
something like so great about like senior night and just, I
don't know, like all the memories of like homecoming,
(23:12):
like weekend and stuff like that, that like it makes you
feel kind of like a professional, Like the stands
are like filled and like there'schance and there's like blow up
head signs. You know, that aspect of high
school soccer prepared me for college.
When you like are starting to play in front of a bit more
fans, there's people making noises and like playing drums
(23:33):
and stuff like that. And then that's kind of like the
transition into play professionally where you
actually are playing in front oflike legitimate crowds where
people are heckling you and there can be kind of like a
daunting atmosphere. High school and college system
did a decent job with that. But I think definitely with the
system of like in high school and college, you're playing like
(23:56):
3 games in a week and your season is condensed in the three
months. I don't think that is is
realistic. I think there was like a
definite like transition from college to professional of like
how to properly take care of your body for the longevity of
an entire season. Because playing from what pre
(24:17):
season, dependent on what level you're at, the pre season could
start like mid mid January, could start in like February,
early February and go to November like October.
That is a very long time to stayhealthy, to play a lot of games.
(24:37):
And just honestly like part of it is making yourself available
to then be picked in the squad. I think I've unfortunately had
some injury troubles where I have missed time.
I had a knee injury in 2023. I've I've dealt with your
conscience in the past two seasons, so I've definitely had
to change and tweak the way thatI train to make my my body
(25:01):
available and and healthy for the longevity of that entire
season. Yeah, that's really interesting.
I I remember hearing there's been some rumors that the US
college soccer system or the structure is attempting, are
wanting to attempt to mimic the European structure.
(25:21):
You hear about this? I've heard those rumors like the
entire time I was in college andI don't know if I highly doubt
it'll ever change. I think they keep voting on it
and then they're like, oh, like we'll make a change later.
I think the issue is a lot because like the MLS draft
happens in the winter. So like if you make your season
a fall on a spring and your top players get drafted in the
(25:45):
winter, then like. Your team.
Drastically change, yeah, mid season your team drastically
changes. So all of these top schools with
players that have the potential to be drafted by MLS teams, they
don't really want to lose their players, so they would much
rather have a condensed fall season.
Yeah, that's really interesting is I feel like I think there's
(26:06):
so many ramifications that happens with if they decide to
do that, then I feel like that gives priority to 1 sport.
Like what are they going to do to to women's soccer?
What are they going to do to football, to baseball?
Like if they change soccer into A2 semester sport, Like I feel
like that would then cause for other sports.
(26:29):
Like I feel like as a soccer athlete, you'd be like, well,
I'm literally competing both semesters.
And like, you know, I feel like it would cause tension.
And I don't know, I don't know if that's warranted or not, but
I feel like it would. That's just my thought in my
opinion, But it's really interesting to to think of and
see if the US will even think about mimicking the European
schedule. And I don't know, I kind of like
(26:51):
I said, I think the US Soccer context is so unique and I think
it, it has its own beauty in it.And like you said, the high
school system, like I do remember a lot of,
unfortunately, our field at the time wasn't ideal.
I know it was like a reverse Dome.
Like I, I, I remember being a forward and I looked at, at the
(27:13):
opposing net or at my own net and I couldn't even see our
goalie because it, it was so like, yeah, inverted.
And it was such a hill. But like, it's that sort of
small, like small town feel, I guess, you know, with soccer and
you go to these sort of games and events and it was really
cool to be senior night and things like that.
(27:33):
Like, I do agree with you that the high school system is very
unique. It's very fun and I, I really
enjoyed it. I, I wouldn't change it for the
world. I actually didn't do any private
league until high school. And so I'm I'm curious like do
you think if a family wanted to place their kid in like the YMCA
(27:55):
and like community leagues, do you think there would be any
chance that they would be able to compete for D1 scholarships?
Or do you think there's no way that they have to go private?
I think they can honestly, I think like from a young age the
most important thing is just like going and playing.
But I think there there is an importance on developing
(28:15):
technique because if you can develop that at a young age,
then it's just going to be easier than like there are there
is growing pains with trying to develop and and make changes the
older you get. But no, like, I mean, think
about Matt turn around. I think listen to a podcast that
he was on and like he didn't like start playing in goal till
(28:37):
like stop from your high school.Like, you know, like there,
there are going to be stories like that.
There's going to be people who are just like crazy athletic and
can develop enough technique to then get themselves to the next
level. But I, I do think from like a
more broad and like general perspective that your chances of
(28:59):
if you, if you want to go to thepathway of high school, then to
college and then from there potentially playing pro, I think
you're going to have maybe a more successful route.
If you are playing in a more private like league or when
you're getting like better coaching.
But like, and if you can get quality coaching from like the Y
(29:21):
or something like that, then like that's perfect.
You know, I think a lot of it ishow much are you willing to like
put into it as well. There's a lot of times where
like my club team would train onlike a Tuesday or Thursday and
we play a game on Saturday. Well, I would do private
goalkeeper training on like the Monday.
I would then on like the Wednesday and like the Friday I
(29:41):
would go and like do ball striking on like a field like by
my house. And I'll do that on my own, like
in the dark. You know, like, those are the
things where it doesn't matter if you're in like an Academy or
if you're just playing like local high school soccer.
If you're putting in that work and taking the time to work on
the things that you actually need to work on, then like
(30:04):
you're going to make progress, you know?
Yeah, it's really cool. It's really interesting to hear
because I sort of, I feel like Ikind of have a hot take towards
it. I personally, I don't like how
privatized sport is becoming in the US.
I'm more of a communal, communalbased sport connoisseur or
philosopher I guess. And I've got a, I've got a, a
(30:25):
tab open right now on Project Play, which is a a nonprofit
organization that looks at childsport participation.
They did a, a sort of demographic research endeavour
in 2022 and they found that the most expensive sport for a kid
to play is soccer. And in 2022, it was $1188 per
(30:48):
season. And in 2022, families spent on
an estimate in the entire US 30 to 40 billion on children's
sports. And personally, I think that's
absolutely insane. And I think that this price tag
of 1200 bucks for one season, like, you know, your season, I
(31:10):
remember my season was what likein the summer, kind of like 3-4
months, maybe like like 4, maybefive months, if that.
So like 1200 bucks over 5 month period.
Like that's a, it's a pretty good amount of money.
And I, I, I fear that this privatization of, of youth sport
is pricing out a lot of people. And that's like kind of why I
(31:31):
asked you that sort of YMCA question because I, I really
like the way that Europe is designed with community sport
and it's ran basically funded bythe government and it's free,
you know, like anybody in the community goes in and
participates. But with the US, it's privatized
and there's always a price tag on it and people have to pay and
(31:54):
it's just sort of wild. And I feel like families sort of
have to put other things on the back burner just to place their
kid to give them a chance. And I liked what you said that
maybe they don't even have to do.
I think they just need to play in general.
And I think it doesn't matter. And just valuing the experience
over the price tag, which I think is phenomenal advice.
(32:15):
I think that's really cool and really cool to think about.
But that sort of transitions us into a really cool halftime.
We'll go ahead and take a littlebit of a break and we'll be back
here in about 10 seconds. OK, welcome back everyone.
(32:45):
Hope you all enjoyed the first half of this episode.
We talked a lot about experiences and a professional
sport, what it looks like in thecollegiate atmosphere, what it
looked like in the youth atmosphere, sort of motivations,
psychological connections, things of that nature.
A lot of cool stories shared from Michael here.
(33:06):
Thank you very much for for those stories.
That was really cool. I'd love to transition into a
bit more of a theoretical or in depth conversation sort of about
how you view yourself in society.
So there's actually a very famous, well known sociological
theory called social identity theory that talks a lot about
(33:27):
how basically how individuals will see themselves within
society and how they'll place themselves into an end group.
And so for example, in your case, you've placed yourself
into the the athletic in Group and you are now an athlete and
you may identify as an athlete and that is who you are.
You see yourself as an athlete and that is sort of your in
(33:50):
Group. And this theory talks about how
individuals will find sort of peace and cohesion and
acceptance when you find that inGroup.
And I'm curious, do you view yourself as athlete first?
Do you think when I was explaining social identity, did
it make sense? Do you do you agree that you put
athlete first, or do you put something else first?
(34:12):
Yeah, I think it's very easy forathletes, but just anyone in
general to to put what they spend most of their time as
their identity. So there's a, there's a famous
quote that I've heard, or it's like, you show me your calendar
and I'll tell you what your priorities are.
Athletes predominantly spend their time playing their sport,
(34:35):
not even playing their sport, but preparing for their sports.
The way they eat, the way they sleep, the way they spend their
time. And I think for the majority of
my life, I did identify myself as a soccer player.
I mentioned earlier in the the podcast that I had experienced
like a car crash and then being able to get my first contract
previously after that car crash.And that was kind of the
(34:56):
catalyst for my faith journey. And now I identify myself as a
follower of Christ. Number one, that is what my
identity is. That is my purpose, not soccer,
not a coach's opinion, not how Iperform, not how I trained that
day. That doesn't define who I am.
And I think so much of my life Ispent feeling how I trained.
(35:21):
If I had a good training session, if I made saves, then I
was on top of the world, I was living life.
But if I had a bad training session, if I made a mistake
that led to a goal in a game, then that day, the days
following, I was in a low place.And especially as a goalkeeper,
(35:41):
where mistakes are even more punishable, even more glaring
and obvious, It's it's heightened.
You know, I think especially theposition of a goalkeeper is, I
think there's a certain personality that you need to
have to be a goalie. There's the constant desire of
(36:04):
perfection because one mistake can lead to a goal.
And I think that is a very, verydangerous spot when your
identity is in soccer. I just think about my time in
college and I mentioned around 2020 I was experiencing like
(36:25):
real and serious burnout. Spring 2019 was the closest I
was ever to playing soccer. I wasn't enjoying it.
I wasn't playing while I was miserable.
Like I was just like exhausted constantly.
And I can distinctly remember training, it was like a
Wednesday or a Thursday, like a training session.
(36:46):
And it was later than normal because someone had a night
class or something. And like, we were doing like a
finishing drill. I was conceding goals.
And the GA at the time looked atme and I was like, mate, like
you're supposed to be enjoying yourself.
Like this is like a game that you've dreamed about since you
were a little kid. Like you don't look happy.
I'm like, I'm not. And if it wasn't for him, I
(37:10):
probably wouldn't still be playing soccer, honestly, like
incredible guy. And he was like literally like
mid session. He's just like, look, if you
ever need to talk about like anything, like what's going on,
like my office is always open. Like we can come in, like we can
have a chat. And I think just like the way
that he pursued me that spring gave me the encouragement to
(37:33):
continue to keep playing to to try and change my perspective,
my mentality of how I saw soccerand how I saw myself.
And he ended up leaving and going to take a different
coaching position after that spring.
But that following fall was the best season in Missouri State
history. And I got to be a part of it.
Like we went 18 O and one and like we won an NCAA game for the
(38:00):
very first time and like the school's history.
And like if it wasn't for him and the way that he pursued me,
then I wouldn't have been able to be a part of that, you know,
And but I was still internally dealing with dealing with like I
an identity crisis of like I am a soccer player.
(38:22):
And so like, if we win, then like I'm flying and like, we had
good seasons. And so like I was, I was doing
fine. But then your college career
comes to an end at a certain point, you know, and then it's
like, OK, can I, can I make it to like the next level?
Can I play professionally? And I was very fortunate because
(38:46):
I have seen God meet me through soccer so clearly that he, he's
completely changed my perspective on everything.
And not only did like he changedmy plans of like I was going to
play 4 1/2 years and then like go and play soccer, but like
(39:09):
because of COVID, I got the opportunity to play for my
hometown and it's inaugural seasons.
And through my experience at Saint Louis, there was a team
Bible study and a chaplain who is a dear friend of mine now who
like taught me what it means to to follow Jesus, what that
(39:30):
actually looks like, what a relationship with Jesus is and
how to make that your identity in a performance based industry.
Because it is so difficult. I was having a, a conversation
with another friend of mine who's a who is a goalkeeper.
And he was just saying like, I don't know how anyone could have
(39:51):
any self worth in this industry without Christ.
And it's so true because I wouldsay the vast majority of
professional soccer players, if you ask them what their hobby
is, they couldn't tell you theirhobby.
If you ask them what they would do if they didn't play soccer,
they'd be like, I don't know. I don't this is it.
This is it for me. I saw.
(40:12):
Soccer. Exactly.
Like I am group basically. And like you ask them what they
do when they go home from training and they go home and
they play video games the whole rest of the day.
And so when they do get injured,when they don't get that next
contract and they have to make these decisions, their whole
(40:33):
world is is shook. They don't they don't know what
to do. They don't know who they are.
And I think that has been probably something, one of the
things that I'm most passionate about is getting to these,
especially young guys, just getting to them and just like
sharing with them that like, no,like you're so much more than
just a soccer player. You're so much more than like
(40:53):
your profession. You yourself worth isn't wrapped
up in a coach's opinion of you, you know?
Yeah, that's interesting that when you're speaking about all
these things, it's really cool. There's actually a, a research
article that just came out or not just in, in 2021.
It's titled Identification in Sport and Religion and it
(41:14):
explores the, the, the relationship between those two
identities of athlete or at our fan versus religion.
And what reminded me when you'respeaking about these things is
that Notre Dame quarterback Riley Leonard, I remember very
vividly after the game or a couple of those playoff games
(41:35):
that he would get interviewed. And immediately the very, very
first thing he said was like, I want to thank God or, or
something of that nature. And I'm, I feel like it's
starting to become a lot more common where I'm hearing these
postgame interviews. And the very, very first thing
they say is I want to thank God.And like, I think that's very
(41:55):
interesting how this article specifically looks at fandom,
but they go into into a small paragraph here.
They say that past research has shown that sport fandom is one
of the strongest identifiers at which at which I agree.
There's a lot of like individuals that are passionate
and I'm sure you've experienced some very passionate fans in the
(42:16):
past and how they identify very passionately as a sport fan.
But the article that was released by Doctor Katz and a
couple of others, it shows that that fandom actually may
decrease and may go down if there are additional more
meaningful identities. And what it's suggesting here is
(42:38):
religious identity. And it's really cool that you
basically said that you put athletics first and then you
sort of met God or met Jesus, and then that became 1st.
And that put things on the back burner, which is really
interesting. Do you think in any way, shape
or form do you feel like that this may be a crazy question,
(42:59):
but you think this like putting that identity first, did that
hinder performance or does that hinder your perception of sport
or your perception of being a pro athlete?
I'm just curious, has that changed the way you just view
life? You know, you're not just an
athlete, you're, you know, a follower of Christ first.
So I'm curious what your thoughts are.
(43:21):
Yeah, honestly, it's changed everything.
Number one, I think being a follower of Christ has saved my
career. I think I was so afraid of
making a mistake that like, I didn't enjoy playing games.
I would have performance anxiety.
I would go into a game of thinking like I can't mess up.
I have to do XY and Z. And I think like having my
(43:44):
identity rooted in Christ that gave me the freedom that I
lifted a weight off my shoulder where I could go out and I could
play. And I know regardless of win,
draw or loss mistake, incrediblegame, I would still be loved by
the creator of the universe. And I think like that is so
(44:04):
freeing to know that and that like no work I do is going to
make God love me more, love me less.
So I think my relationship with Price has saved my career.
I think it has definitely changed where I spend my time
and what I prioritize. I think about just, I would
(44:31):
especially there's also a transition when you you go from
like college to professional andit is a profession and it is
like a job. It's so easy.
It's just human nature to lose sight of the fact that like
you're literally doing somethingthat you dreamed about when you
were five. And it's so easy to complain
about not having control over your schedule, not being able to
(44:56):
do things on the weekend, traveling and being stuck in the
airport for hours and not getting any sleep.
Like the just the nasty stuff ofbeing a professional athlete
that like most people don't think about.
It's so easy to get wrapped up in that and see like soccer as
just a job. But I think honestly, it's given
(45:17):
me like new perspective and almost a new passion for soccer.
It's I've, I've seen it differently.
It's, I've seen it as just like incredible opportunity to share
cracks with like my teammates and just to be an ambassador
Christ. And he's giving me like God's
giving me an incredible gift anda talent.
And it's also when injuries haveoccurred, it's me not thinking
(45:43):
like, why is this happened to me?
But like, why is this happened for me?
And it's helped me self reflect in that aspect and, and be
hopeful for the future because I'm currently going through
concussion protocol. I've been out for seven weeks
now and have been still experiencing symptoms and this
(46:05):
whole time I keep telling my wife this is going to be 1 heck
of a story because I don't know what God is doing in my life.
I don't know why there's been this pause, but I feel like it
has been a pause for renewal, for me to get healthy, to get
back playing and go back into that with a completely different
(46:26):
perspective, a completely different mindset of of how I
see training, how I see soccer. Yeah, that's really interesting.
One, one thing that sort of justpopped in my head, I I've
experienced multiple concussionsas well.
And that what's that? That's what's actually sidelined
me. I had three concussions my
spring semester. And actually really funny story,
(46:47):
one of them I got because my coach, our coach was playing
with us and he was, he was bald and there's a cross that came in
from the side and I was blinded by the sun and I saw the
reflection of a bald head. And I thought that was the ball.
And I just like headed. But it was him.
And it was a terrible, like I was young, obviously the
(47:08):
terrible mistake. But I, I like rammed my head on
his and I got a concussion from it.
And it's sort of, yeah, it's really funny and like kind of a
crazy story. But that makes me curious
because if we we both experienceconcussions and like, they are
no joke. And so I'm very curious what
your thought is with professional football players,
(47:30):
Like there's got to be somethingin the in the juice because I'm
sure someone gets a concussion like every game or someone does
every week. And there's no way they can come
back in five days. Like I was out for months, you
know, and you said you're in seven weeks.
So like, what are your thoughts?I'm just curious what are your
(47:50):
thoughts on that? Honestly, the more that I have
been doing research on concussions, the more I've
realized there's like not enoughresearch on concussions.
It is literally off of that's the thing too.
It's it's chemical, it's how your brain feels, how you're
physically feel. And so it's like, it's literally
all about how honest you are going to be with yourself to
(48:11):
then tell the trainer. Like now I'm still experiencing
symptoms, I have a headache, I have pressure in my head and not
lying to yourself or not. And that's The thing is, like
with with a broken arm, someone can look like, no, your arm's
still broken. But like with you're having
pressure in your head or a headache and you feel like dizzy
or feel nauseous. Like to a certain extent, you
(48:32):
can put your head down and you can like, push through it, you
know, and you might not be to like your best, but like, you
can still kind of get away with it.
And that's why all of these football players are getting CTE
because there's all of these micro impacts every single time
they're getting hit. And it's every single game.
And then they're not being honest about how they actually
(48:55):
are feeling. Yeah, yeah.
It's it makes, that's the thing,like with this concussion, it
just made me really concerned ofjust like future football
players. Yeah.
And their mental health. Yeah, I agree.
I think one, one thing that's really interesting, I remember
hearing, I don't remember where I heard this from, but either a
previous rugby athlete or something, a previous rugby
(49:16):
scientist, but they were an ex rugby player.
And then they came over to the NFL and played like a game or
something. And they said that people in the
NFL tackle like ridiculously, because in rugby there's no pads
and then you you go in shoulder first, but people in the NFL go
in head like head first everywhere.
And like, it's sort of wild to me, like, and I'm curious,
(49:41):
random question, but do you think at some point when you do
recover, are you gonna wear the,the, the check the Peter check
helmet and sort of go from there?
I'm curious what your thoughts are.
So I've done research on the Peter Check helmets and honestly
they don't protect. They protect from lacerations
and cauliflower here. But there has been a lot of
(50:04):
studies that have shown that they don't.
It's just false sense of security.
There is a new thing called AQ collar.
Yeah, I've heard of that. I have one I'm going to try out
when I get healthy, but there's been some promising research.
It's still like pretty new but it increases blood flow to the
brain and helps protect and has reduced concussions.
(50:28):
So I'm going to try that out when I do get healthy and
hopefully it helps. That's yeah, it's I mean, that's
great that you're you're taking it very seriously because I
guess PSA, like anyone listeningout there, concussions are, are
real deal. Like it is, it is nothing to
joke if you hit your head on anything like take the time
because you never know what lifeis going to be like in 1020
(50:49):
years. If you decide to brush it off,
like, you know, some other athletes may be doing you, you
don't know the ramifications. Like you said, like you break
your arm, you can see that you're not healed yet, but you
don't know. You don't know, like you can't
easily tell. And so, and it's hard to be
honest with yourself. I agree.
Like there's a lot of there. I remember there are a lot of
(51:09):
times when I was injured to recover and I was like, oh, I
can totally go, I can do. But then when I hit full Sprint,
I'd like black out, you know, because like there's just so
much pressure when you're at full Sprint.
And that just it worried, it's terrified me.
And that was one of the reasons why I ended up transferring
away. But sort of want to transition
into your life as an athlete andsort of your perception of being
(51:33):
a pro athlete. Is there like any pros and cons
that you've sort of surfaced or experienced now that you're a
professional athlete? Yeah, honestly, there's a
there's a ton of pros and cons. I think it is one of the most
unique positions in the world that someone like professions
that someone can have. I think the fact that I can work
(51:53):
from 8:45 to like 1 and like someone pay me for that to like
play a game where like realistically, like that's the
time I'm at the facility, but like you're trained for like an
hour, hour and a half and then maybe do an away session like
that is a a dream come true. That is the greatest privilege
and the greatest honor ever for especially like, I think back
(52:16):
about like 5 year old me, like first starting to play soccer
and like me watching like the EUR and like dreaming about
becoming a professional soccer player.
To have that privilege has been like a huge blessing.
But I think like they're also are like a lot of cons that
people don't think about is the fact that from mid January till
(52:39):
October, you really have no control of your schedule.
You're getting, maybe you're getting like a month calendar
from the club telling you like events.
But then there's also the possibility of like things
changing like week of like or yeah.
So like it's almost impossible to plan off.
Days are usually Sunday and Monday.
(53:01):
So like my weekend is a Sunday, Monday where all most people are
working on a Monday and most people are getting ready for
work the next day on a Sunday. So like having like a social
life is also different. Traveling also like I have been
all over the United States, but the majority of the time that
(53:22):
I've spent all over the United States, I've spent in an
airport, a hotel or in a soccer field.
And it's not the most glamorous thing in the world, but like, I
don't want it all to sound like negative.
I think one of the most beautiful things about being a
professional soccer player is being able to kind of like
college soccer is being able to meet people from all over the
world. I think about just like, yes,
(53:45):
you are traveling a lot. You're spending a lot of time in
the locker room, but just like the random inside jokes you have
with teammates who are just likethe, the times where you're so
bored that you're just trying topass time and like making
incredible memories. Those are the things that you
remember. And I, I mean, you hear about
all the time, but like guys, they retire and the thing that
they miss most is not actually like sport, but it's the
camaraderie they have with theirteammates.
(54:06):
And like, even with this concussion, there was a week I
spent away from the facility andI was going crazy just like not
being around the guys. And just like that is your
instant community. It's crazy because like you move
to a new city and you don't knowanyone, but then boom, you have
instinct community. You've got 25 guys that are all
(54:26):
in like pretty much the same boat that you're in.
They don't know anyone else, butthey have a common interest.
And so that is something that I'm really grateful for because
I have met some incredible friends and like for life
through through the sport. Yeah, it's, that's really cool.
I'm sort of really curious. Do you think there's anything
throughout this process, throughout this experience, or
(54:48):
maybe anything that you've decided, is there anything that
you regret that maybe you wish you would have done differently
or approached differently now that you're where you're at now?
I think about how I spend like my time after training.
And I think that has like definitely changed like each
(55:09):
season. Last season I ended up getting
my real estate license. I took like, congratulations for
that. Thank you.
But like I was studying for that.
And because like there you do have so much free time in the
afternoon. And it's just like, how can I
maximize that time? How can I not just waste it by
(55:31):
like watching TV or scrolling onmy phone?
And I think, yeah, maybe from from my like first season, kind
of like trying to to maximize that while I could.
It's kind of been like last yearand then this year where I
really tried to actually like dostuff with my free time.
(55:51):
I think my first two years I waslike, I just want to focus on
soccer. I don't want to do anything
else. But now it's like, OK, like I
have like this platform, I can use it to partner with like
companies and, and do things like that.
And that's what I've been starting to get into.
And I've done some like content like creating and stuff like
that, you know, which I think it's been really rewarding and
(56:14):
it's been fun to do and could potentially be like an Ave.
after soccer, you know, which isgreat.
Yeah, it's cool. So that leads me into like a
final question here. It's like, what, what next?
You know, like obviously being apro athlete doesn't last
forever. Like have you, have you thought
about what comes afterwards? And obviously you, you sort of
hinted at it. You you're making content.
(56:36):
You got your real estate license.
Do you think you're going to move into real estate?
Do you have any thoughts, any any sort of dreams, any goals
after professional sport? Yeah, I think honestly, I've
always, my undergrad was entrepreneurship and I've always
had an entrepreneurial spirit about me.
And one of my my passions is cooking.
(56:56):
One of the things that I spent alot of my free time doing is
cooking. And so I have always wanted to
open up a food truck with my dad.
I always joke around with him that as soon as he retires, I'm
gonna put him back to work and we're gonna open up a food
truck. But that's definitely something
that love to do. Real estate.
(57:19):
I'm testing the waters this year.
It hasn't gone great so far, buthopefully we can we can get the
ball rolling a bit more. But yeah, honestly, I think I'm
I'm optimistic. I'm open to life after soccer.
It's not one of those things that I'm afraid of.
It's not one of those things that I dread, but it's
definitely something that want to be in the future.
(57:42):
I, I want to keep playing, I want to enjoy this this career
as long as I can because I know it is a gift.
I know it is only for a short period of time in my life.
So I think also like having likemy identity not wrapped up in
soccer also gives me the freedomto to dream about like things
after soccer, you know? Yeah, that's a great, that's a
(58:03):
great statement. I was that actually it's on a
follow up question that I had that really just hit in my mind.
I'm curious if you in an if hypothetical situation, if your
first identity wasn't Christ centered and it was athlete
centered, do you feel like you would have answered that
question? I just asked differently.
A. 100% yeah. I think there'd be a lot more
(58:24):
confusion of what life after soccer actually looks like.
Yeah, I think there would be a astubbornness of wanting to hold
on to it and force it. Right.
It's sort of hints, I guess, nothints, but my connection is how
all these, I don't want to say washed up, but retired,
basically retired athletes out of Europe come to the MLS and
(58:48):
the MLS has been coined as like the retirement league.
And I'm curious like what your thoughts are on that?
Like if you're if you are in Europe and you're, you know,
athlete first, athlete first, athletes first and you're afraid
of retirement and people now andyou're now coming to to America,
like I'm curious what your thoughts are in this whole
retirement league. We have Messi now, which has
(59:10):
like skyrocketed interest in sport and interest in soccer,
which is phenomenal. But I think it would have been
great if we have more people in their prime in the MLS instead
of people coming when they're like 40.
And so I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that.
Yeah. Honestly, I think more and more
(59:31):
we're getting guys that are still serious about playing.
I mean, I think about Red Bull, they've got Troopa Moting,
they've got Forsberg, LA Galaxy has Ricky Pooch.
I mean even Roman Berkey at Saint Louis, like if you've
watched him play, he is still very serious about soccer.
(59:51):
I mean he was been lights out every game that he's played for
Saint Louis. I think the league is getting
more and more competitive and the quality is getting higher
and higher and even OK in Miami you could say that their team is
filled up with guys that are in late 30s, but like they're still
incredible team that are like pushing to win trophies, you
(01:00:14):
know. So I think.
If we can get high quality players to the MLS, I think it's
only good for the league. Yeah, yeah, I agree.
I I really want someday at some at some point for the North
American soccer land, mostly US soccer landscape to compete.
I just want to compete. I want players to want to come
(01:00:36):
to the US, but I think we're we're sort of on that like tail
end or we're, we're sort of teetering towards the tail end
of that retirement league aspect.
And like you said, there are a lot of people in the league that
really do take it serious. And people are starting to take
the league a lot more seriously,which is phenomenal.
And I think we're on that sort of back end.
(01:00:57):
And I'm really, really looking forward to how the next like
5-10 years are going to look like.
And I'm hoping we can compete inthe World Cup.
I'm curious what your thoughts are And, you know, do you think
the US is going to compete in the World Cup in 28?
Like what do you think is going to happen?
Honestly, so much can change from here to that.
Like, I think about, I mean, even like the last World Cup
(01:01:18):
cycle, like Zach Stefan was the goalie the entire time.
And then like, Turner kind of comes out of nowhere and like,
is the guy. Like, that can happen in a
moment, You know, you have no clue what young players just
kind of like develop out of nowhere and become hot and make
a World Cup roster. But honestly, I'm optimistic.
I think anything can happen, especially US playing on home
(01:01:38):
soil. I think we've got a great like,
core, we've got an incredible manager with a ton of
experience. And I think it's very early
stages. People are going to want to talk
and they're going to want to bash the United States for
recent games and recent performances.
But I mean, the World Cup isn't here yet.
It all depends on the ones that actually happens in the group
(01:02:00):
stage. I think about like England, the
World Cup or their World Cup andEuro qualifiers.
Everyone's always complaining about how boring they are.
And even in the tournament they'll complain about how
boring they are and then they'llmake the final or the semifinal,
you know. So I think people have a lot of
opinions and they they want to make a fuss and it's as easy to
(01:02:20):
to bash teams, but I'm optimistic.
I'm Bruton for the US and I think we can make something
happen. Yeah, I think so too.
I'm a I'm a AC Milan fan and we got Captain America, AC Milan
with, with Pulicich. So he's sort of pioneering.
They call him Captain America and on the on the team and then
in Italy. It's really interesting and
really cool. It's and then you're starting to
(01:02:41):
see, I think you're starting to see a lot more US athletes and
top tier leagues. You know, you got Anthony
Robinson at Fulham, Pulicich, ACMilan.
I think Josh Sargent's at Norwich, but I think he should
leave. He should transfer somewhere
else to get some more playing time.
Matt Turner, I think should alsomaybe think about moving to get
some more playing time. But they're in quality, quality
(01:03:03):
leagues. And so I think it's really cool
where maybe 1020 years ago all of our athletes came from the
MLS, but now they're all in these top 4 leagues.
They're all in. A lot of them are in Europe.
They're, you know, very, very highly qualified.
So it's really cool to really cool to see.
I'm really looking forward to World Cup and hoping that we can
we can compete. That sort of transitions towards
(01:03:26):
the end of the podcast episode. I really appreciate you taking
the time to join and speak with me.
I really enjoyed this this episode and I hope everyone out
there enjoyed the listen and I hope everyone in sort of enjoys
their their their night and enjoyed the episode.
So thank you very much for joining me, and I hope you
recover well from your concussion.
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
This was awesome. Yeah.
(01:03:47):
Thank you very much.
Hi everyone, my name is Nathan Merkel.
Welcome to the Ivory Tower podcast where we talk a little
bit about sport and society. What sport looks like within the
global context, what it looks like within the American
context, what we think about sport, how we experience sport,
why? How do we consume sport.
I really hope you enjoy the following episode and I hope you
(00:22):
will continue to listen down theroad.
Thanks. OK everyone, thank you very much
for joining me for another episode of Rebuilding the Ivory
Tower. This is a episode talking about
sport within society. I'm super excited about this
(00:44):
episode. I'm joined by Michael Creek, who
is a professional goalie in the USL for FC Tulsa.
Hi, how's it going? Thanks for having me on.
Yeah, wonderful. I'm super pumped about this
episode. I really want to talk to you
about sort of your experience playing with FC Tulsa, being a
goalie, what that's like, how it's impacted you, how to change
the way you view, I guess, sportand life in general.
(01:06):
But I really want to start off, if you could just paint us a
picture of just your general background.
I know you play for FC Tulsa. I'd love to hear like how you
got there and what you experienced on a day-to-day
basis. Yeah.
So from Saint Louis, went to Limburg High School with you
actually, yeah, play together a little bit.
So not very long, but it was honestly pretty, pretty cool
(01:30):
time to be a freshman with the varsity guys.
But yeah, went to Limburg High School and then from there
played at Missouri State for fartoo long.
Had a red shirt season and a COVID season, but eventually got
my Four Seasons playing. And then from there, I played a
season with Saint Louis City too, their inaugural year, and
(01:53):
then was fortunate enough to be the third keeper for Saint Louis
City during their inaugural year, and then the last.
And then I've spent the the lasttwo seasons at FC Tulsa.
Yeah, that's awesome. What was your experience playing
with or at least trying out for those teams?
Honestly, it was kind of just a,a crazy process because I guess
(02:16):
I never from the very beginning,like never had like a very
traditional like straightforwardroute into college into
professional sport. I the longer I'm in the game,
the more I realize very few people actually do have a
straight path. Like the guys that are playing
and the guys that do make a career out of playing soccer.
(02:38):
It's the ones that can overcome adversity.
The ones that have just like kind of a crazy story of they
had an opportunity that took theopportunity.
I mean, I think about even beingrecruited by Missouri State.
It was like late my senior year of high school.
I had like one Division One offer.
(02:59):
It was from like Western Illinois University and I really
wasn't wild about it. I had a coach reach out to
Missouri State and one of their keepers quit after the fall
season they needed to bring in or after the spring season they
needed to bring in 1/3. And luckily the goalie coach for
(03:19):
Missouri State was from Saint Louis and was home for winter
break. He watched me train during that
break. And then I guess I did well
enough that they invited me to avisit and then gave me like an
offer and I committed it like February, my Senior High School
like crazy. And then even like my path at
(03:40):
Missouri State, I registered in my freshman year.
I backed up the starter of my sophomore year.
He graduated, and then it was kind of like, all right, you're
kind of the next guy up. Can you take this opportunity?
And I was fortunate enough that I was able to.
And my plan was OK. I was going to play 4 1/2 years,
(04:01):
play my red shirt season, and then I was going to go pursue
professional soccer. Well, 2020 rolls around and the
world shuts down and season getspushed and my plan goes
completely out the window. At that point, I was very burnt
out with soccer. The environment that I was in
(04:23):
was a high pressure environment,one where performance meant a
lot and there was a lot of pressure put on the goalkeepers
as well. Constant competition guys coming
in from all over the world. We had a predominantly foreign
roster and I just, yeah, I wasn't happy.
And honestly, like I would probably saved like my playing
(04:45):
career because it was me and like a couple handful of other
goalies back in Saint Louis, like my boys and shout out to
Tyler Doll and Michael Harry. But we would just go up to
soccer park and just train for like hour, 2 hours like every
single day. And I realized like, oh, like
(05:06):
I'm not falling out of love withsoccer.
Like I could do this every single day.
I'm, I was just like burned out with the environment that I was
in. And once COVID settled down, we
were able to go back to school beyond campus and like the
season started up again. That's where I was like, OK, how
can I change my mentality going into training?
How can I find joy in this again?
And I was able to probably have my 2 best seasons in the that
(05:31):
spring we went to the Sweet 16 and then said AA tournament,
still the farthest that MissouriState's ever gone.
And then we were able to when regular season in our conference
tournament my my last season playing and unfortunately we got
knocked out by Creighton, but inthe first round.
But it was still like, yeah, like my last three seasons
(05:51):
playing were my favorite. And then from there, it's like,
OK, I want to keep playing, but I don't know where an
opportunity is going to come from.
I might have to go to open tryouts.
And we kind of touched a little bit about it before we started
recording, but I was actually ina car accident right after my
(06:13):
collegiate season ended. It was Thanksgiving break so I
think like a week after our season ended me and my friends
were going to get food late at night and there's a three-way
stop. Stopped, looked, didn't see
anyone, started to turn left andthen over the Crest I see
headlights and a car blew through a stop sign and T boned
(06:36):
us going like 55 miles an hour in a residential area.
And that car accident was kind of the the catalyst of my faith,
but it was also just kind of an incredible moment that really
put everything in perspective. My future wife and my best
friend were in the back seat andthey were unconscious.
They had to go to the hospital. And All in all they were OK.
(06:58):
They didn't need surge or anything.
But my friend who was sitting inthe seat behind me ended up
spending three nights in the hospital, partially collapsed,
long broken ribs, and I was perfectly OK.
And a week after that car accident, I was invited out to a
try a tryout with Saint Louis City too.
(07:19):
And like, if it was me that likeif it was my door that got hit,
then I probably wouldn't be a professional soccer player.
But like went through the like 2phases of tryouts, got offered
a, a contract with Saint Louis City 2.
Just so blessed to be like a part of that and like represent
(07:40):
my hometown and especially like inaugural year.
And like, I think about like, myinitial plan was like, I'm going
to play 4 1/2 years and then like go try and play pro.
Well, Saint Louis City 2 didn't exist in 4 1/2 years, the time
that I was supposed to graduate.And it was, it was God's timing
of my career. It just perfectly aligned where
(08:01):
COVID happened. I got an extra year of
eligibility and by the time thatI finished using up all that
eligibility, the team came into existence and we had an awesome
team. I was able to be a part of some
some great players that are still playing for the first team
at Saint Louis. And we've made it to the MLS
Next Pro final and unfortunatelylost to Columbus.
(08:24):
But it was a incredible experience and was fortunate
enough to earn a contract with the first team the following
season. And to be able to train with
Roman Berkey for over a year washonestly a dream come true.
Like if you told high school me that I was going to be able to
train with Roman Berkey, the guythat I was watching like playing
(08:44):
the Champions League against Real Madrid, like I've told you,
you're lying, you know? So like incredible experience.
I learned so much in that year of just not even like
goalkeeping standpoint, but likewhat it looks like to be a
professional, what it looks liketo show up and every single day
have the right mentality, do thework.
(09:06):
And like the way it sounds so cliche, like you hear it all the
time. But like people can like talk
about these are the things they need to do.
But like, what does it actually look like put into practice?
And I think like I was surrounded by a couple of like
really top professionals. I mean, Ben Lunt, who has been
able to step up, Roman is currently hurt and Ben's been
(09:28):
able to step in and do like a great job.
And that is a testament to his character.
And he has been preparing and doing the right thing this
entire time for when an opportunity comes up.
And so just being around Ben andand Roman and seeing like this
is how you do the right thing. So when an opportunity comes,
you're able to take the opportunity has really just
(09:50):
helped me. And like, so the season ends,
the club doesn't take my option.I'm going to be a free agent.
And the kind of the decision wasI'm going to look at USL champ
teams, try to establish myself there, make a name for myself
and then hopefully get back to the MLS.
And the offseason goes on and goes on and I'm you're having
(10:13):
weekly calls with your agent andnothing really seems to be
materializing. And it gets to January and be it
in mind, like most USL Championship pre season start
like the last week of January and it's like mid January and I
have like nothing. And FC Tulsa is the only team in
(10:34):
the USL Championship that like doesn't have any goalies signed.
And so like I'm cold mage and like, dude, you have to get me
into like Tulsa. I don't know, like I'll go like
open trial, whatever it needs tobe like I need to get in there.
And so luckily he was able to get a hold of the coach, got
invited to pre season with the team, spent three weeks on trial
(10:57):
living in a hotel. My wife's like in Saint Louis,
packing up our apartment, not knowing like where we're going
to move the it's actually crazy.So I signed on like the Tuesday
of it was like February something.
It was a Tuesday. Our apartment lease was up on
the Thursday and then we've moved down to, she moved down to
(11:19):
Tulsa and then U-Haul on like the Saturday.
And like, that's The thing is there's so many scenario, like
so many guys in especially USL Championship, but so many guys
in like soccer like that is likethey have a similar story of
like, I don't know where I like I'm going to be.
Like it has I don't know where I'm going to live next year.
(11:40):
Like being a free agent in the offseason might be one of the
most stressful scenarios for an athlete just because there's so
much uncertainty. And it's not like you can even
like send out like resumes that you can send video.
But really at the end of the day, it comes to like a coach
watching you or like a coach having like an opinion of like
he's valuable enough that like I'm going to take a chance and
(12:02):
like I'm going to bring him in on tryout for vitamin pre season
or I'm going to like form a contract.
You know, like there's just so much like, out of your hand.
That's a phenomenal story. Thank you for showing that.
I guess First off, I want to sayI'm very grateful and glad to
hear that you know, you're safe from that car accident.
That's terrible to hear, but good that something good came
from it. I guess that that you got that
(12:24):
call a week later and sort of things just sort of
materialized. And I think fate has a as a
crazy way of dealing with things.
And I think it just sort of put you on the right path, I guess.
And that's really cool that it also transitioned our fueled the
fire for your faith as well, which is really cool to hear.
And I do remember when you said that your collegiate team was
(12:44):
majority international. I remember I played at the NAI
level was nowhere near what, what you competed at, but like
90% of the team or the opponent players were from England,
Ireland or Scotland or somewhereelse.
And I'm, I was always curious oflike, where do the US people go?
You know, like, because I feel like the whole league was
foreigners and I felt like they,they were all foreign.
(13:06):
And I'm like, where do the US like where, where are we at?
And I'm curious if you like feltthe same way.
Like I felt like I was just competing in the US but against
England in a sense. So I'm just curious what you'd
what your opinion on is that? No, honestly, like more and more
collegiate sport is becoming like predominantly international
(13:26):
based. Especially a lot of these
college coaches are recruiting with like guys who especially
like in England, they've got theapprenticeship And so once
they're like 18 and they're not given a professional contract
with the first team, they just kind of like, I don't know what
to do. So these coaches are like, come
to America, you'll get an education, you'll play and then
(13:48):
you'll be able to go pro in America and they kind of sell on
a dream. A lot of them have never heard
of these cities in the United States and they think that
they're just moving to like Miami or like LA, but it's
really Springfield, MO, you know, like they just have no
clue geographically. And I sold a dream.
Yeah. I think my last season playing
me and the left back were American and the rest of the
(14:11):
starting lineup was foreign. And then a year after I left, I
think there was one American on the roster and he red shirt.
Wow. It's crazy.
But honestly, like, it was a really cool experience for me
because I only had to move threehours away from my hometown to
like meet people from all over the world.
Like, I had a roommate from New Zealand.
I had two other roommates from England.
(14:34):
I met guys from Italy, from Spain, actually.
Like this past offseason, my wife and I, we went to New
Zealand for a wedding. But while we were over there, we
also stopped in Sydney. The wedding was for a former
teammate. We traveled with a former
teammate and his wife who is he is Canadian.
(14:54):
I got to see an old roommate while we were in New Zealand.
Plus I got to see 2 old roommates when we were in
Australia. So like I've got friends all
over the world. I've got a group chat of kind of
like my class. And during COVID, we tried to do
Zooms and it was actually insanebecause I think there were seven
different time zones we were working with.
And like we had to forgot what time it was like maybe like 5:00
(15:19):
in like central time that we hadto meet.
And like we had like guy in Malaysia, guy in Australia, guy
in New Zealand, guy in England, guy in Finland, someone in
Colorado. Like it was literally all over
the place. But I think that is like kind of
the cool thing about collegiate sport because you can meet
people from literally everywhere.
(15:40):
And I think like that culture, like especially being like, I
was a suburban like kid that never travelled really besides
for soccer. And so like saw a hotel room in
a soccer field. So like I was so like
uncultured. And so to go to college and
there's a bunch of people with like skin fades and they're like
(16:05):
chanting, like singing songs. Like, I thought it was the
coolest thing ever, you know? And it was like, after my class
graduated and I stayed to take my extra eligibility, I had a
roommate from England. I had a roommate from Italy and
then a guy from Cleveland. And like, I learned how to make
focaccia bread and, like, would have all the other Italians over
to our apartment and, like, we have, like, focaccia nights.
(16:28):
Yeah. So like, I'm really grateful for
like, honestly kind of the college system because it was
such like a unique experience that I really like.
I got to stay pretty close to home and like, have that
incredible cultural experience. Yeah, that's really cool.
That's it. Reminds me a previous episode I
talked to an Australian that came over and played as the pun
(16:48):
on the football team and what it's what it sounds like is.
I know football is, I mean, obviously not the same sport,
not the same dynamics, but I'm curious if you think maybe other
sports are starting to go international with the way that
soccer is, because it sounds like soccer is extremely heavily
reliant upon international talent.
And I'm sure like I don't think baseball is don't think maybe
(17:11):
football. I know it's with with one
position with the punter, but that's about it.
Like, and I'm curious, do you think this sort of reliance on
international athletes, do you think that like I guess is that
good for North American soccer or do you think that's bad for
North American soccer? I mean, I think for maybe the
(17:31):
quality of soccer potentially, but it's tough because I mean,
these Americans, if they're coming through an MLS Academy,
they're signing home grown contracts.
If they're like legit players. And then like the players that
are just underneath that, that maybe are playing at a really
good like club level or played Academy and like didn't get home
grown contracts are getting likesnatched up by the top 25
(17:54):
schools like the Wake Forest, the like, you know, all the ACC
schools. And so like the rest of of these
American players I feel like arefalling in mid table at Division
One schools, maybe in like less desirable areas to live or maybe
not as sexy of like colleges to go to.
(18:16):
And I think there's been especially like the time that I
was in college, I saw like a huge influx of Scandinavian
players. And I think part of that is due
to their government like will sponsor them to come over and
get like an education. So like there in Division One
soccer, I think there's nine point something scholarships
(18:37):
that they can give like full scholarships and they can divide
those up however they want. That was when I was in college.
I might have changed, but there's like 9.1 or something
like that, full scholarships that can give to a team of like
28 guys. So like most guys are getting a
percentage of a scholarship. And so if you can bring in a
(18:57):
Scandinavian player where you don't have to incentivize giving
them athletic money and they canget academic money through like
the university and they're pretty much getting like free
education and they can play on your your team.
And usually they're a high caliber player just because I
feel like especially like the European Academy set up, I think
(19:17):
I think the US is definitely growing in that aspect,
especially with the fact that all these MLS teams now have an
Academy system, They have a NextPro system.
Like they're starting to develop, but it's only like Next
Pro is I think what, 3-4 years old now?
Like it's still way behind what Europe and all these other
(19:40):
countries have had established for years now.
A system for kids to have, like,proper training from a youth
level, not just a dad who maybe played pick up a little bit and
like, they're teaching their kidsoccer now, you know?
Yeah, I think right now, just making it more competitive is
(20:00):
just going to make everything better.
And it might be tough for Americans feeling like there's
less opportunity, but it's only going to raise the standard and
the quality of the sport. And I think at the end of the
day, that's just going to make it more competitive and lead to
more guys going from college to pro.
And that's what you eventually want to see if that's a pathway
(20:23):
that you're taking, you know? Yeah, that's wonderful that that
transitioned into follow up question when you said it sort
of raises the bar and like sort of raises the, I guess the
standard of of how North American soccer is I guess
programmed how we coach it, why the rigor, the the the challenge
that's associated. I'm curious, do you think our
current youth system or maybe the youth system that you went
(20:45):
through, do you think that prepared you for where you're at
now or do you think maybe the youth system right now needs
change? I'm curious what your thoughts
are. Yeah, honestly, I go back and
forth because I think I never went to like I never played for
an Academy. I never played for like a big
club. I played high school and I
(21:06):
played for like a club team thatlike we would always like be
competing in the state final. We made regionals one year.
But like we, yeah, like I playedfor a small club, you know, I
maybe took a less traditional path, but I wouldn't change that
because I think that less traditional path made me who I
am. And there was a definitely like
(21:26):
adversity. There was definitely times where
like I didn't know if I was going to like make it to like
next level. But I think like that prepared
me mentally to then get the nextlevel and get to the level that
I'm at now. I think maybe from a technical
standpoint, that's where I did lack and I was a later developer
in that aspect. I was very fortunate at Missouri
(21:47):
State. We had a just a really
professional environment. We had a really good group of
guys. I learned a ton about soccer and
like tactics. I learned a ton about just like
developing and like goalkeeping there.
And that was a huge jump. And then it's just as one jump
to a next. And then like at City 2, like
(22:08):
learned a ton about just a different style of goalkeeping.
The goalkeeper coaches German and so and then both like Roman
and Ben are so Roman is Swiss but played in the Bundesliga,
Ben is German. So like just the style is very
like all about like efficiency and how can you just be like
(22:29):
very neutral and like reactive without maybe like guessing or
like leaning a certain way. And so, yeah, honestly, I think
there definitely needs to be a higher standard in coaching.
I think from like a technical standpoint and in youth sports,
I think across the board, I think there is like academies
(22:51):
and there are setups that are very yeah, like they, they
provide exactly what kids need to grow and develop as players.
But I do think there is something special about like the
the high school soccer system and like honestly, like there's
something like so great about like senior night and just, I
don't know, like all the memories of like homecoming,
(23:12):
like weekend and stuff like that, that like it makes you
feel kind of like a professional, Like the stands
are like filled and like there'schance and there's like blow up
head signs. You know, that aspect of high
school soccer prepared me for college.
When you like are starting to play in front of a bit more
fans, there's people making noises and like playing drums
(23:33):
and stuff like that. And then that's kind of like the
transition into play professionally where you
actually are playing in front oflike legitimate crowds where
people are heckling you and there can be kind of like a
daunting atmosphere. High school and college system
did a decent job with that. But I think definitely with the
system of like in high school and college, you're playing like
(23:56):
3 games in a week and your season is condensed in the three
months. I don't think that is is
realistic. I think there was like a
definite like transition from college to professional of like
how to properly take care of your body for the longevity of
an entire season. Because playing from what pre
(24:17):
season, dependent on what level you're at, the pre season could
start like mid mid January, could start in like February,
early February and go to November like October.
That is a very long time to stayhealthy, to play a lot of games.
(24:37):
And just honestly like part of it is making yourself available
to then be picked in the squad. I think I've unfortunately had
some injury troubles where I have missed time.
I had a knee injury in 2023. I've I've dealt with your
conscience in the past two seasons, so I've definitely had
to change and tweak the way thatI train to make my my body
(25:01):
available and and healthy for the longevity of that entire
season. Yeah, that's really interesting.
I I remember hearing there's been some rumors that the US
college soccer system or the structure is attempting, are
wanting to attempt to mimic the European structure.
(25:21):
You hear about this? I've heard those rumors like the
entire time I was in college andI don't know if I highly doubt
it'll ever change. I think they keep voting on it
and then they're like, oh, like we'll make a change later.
I think the issue is a lot because like the MLS draft
happens in the winter. So like if you make your season
a fall on a spring and your top players get drafted in the
(25:45):
winter, then like. Your team.
Drastically change, yeah, mid season your team drastically
changes. So all of these top schools with
players that have the potential to be drafted by MLS teams, they
don't really want to lose their players, so they would much
rather have a condensed fall season.
Yeah, that's really interesting is I feel like I think there's
(26:06):
so many ramifications that happens with if they decide to
do that, then I feel like that gives priority to 1 sport.
Like what are they going to do to to women's soccer?
What are they going to do to football, to baseball?
Like if they change soccer into A2 semester sport, Like I feel
like that would then cause for other sports.
(26:29):
Like I feel like as a soccer athlete, you'd be like, well,
I'm literally competing both semesters.
And like, you know, I feel like it would cause tension.
And I don't know, I don't know if that's warranted or not, but
I feel like it would. That's just my thought in my
opinion, But it's really interesting to to think of and
see if the US will even think about mimicking the European
schedule. And I don't know, I kind of like
(26:51):
I said, I think the US Soccer context is so unique and I think
it, it has its own beauty in it.And like you said, the high
school system, like I do remember a lot of,
unfortunately, our field at the time wasn't ideal.
I know it was like a reverse Dome.
Like I, I, I remember being a forward and I looked at, at the
(27:13):
opposing net or at my own net and I couldn't even see our
goalie because it, it was so like, yeah, inverted.
And it was such a hill. But like, it's that sort of
small, like small town feel, I guess, you know, with soccer and
you go to these sort of games and events and it was really
cool to be senior night and things like that.
(27:33):
Like, I do agree with you that the high school system is very
unique. It's very fun and I, I really
enjoyed it. I, I wouldn't change it for the
world. I actually didn't do any private
league until high school. And so I'm I'm curious like do
you think if a family wanted to place their kid in like the YMCA
(27:55):
and like community leagues, do you think there would be any
chance that they would be able to compete for D1 scholarships?
Or do you think there's no way that they have to go private?
I think they can honestly, I think like from a young age the
most important thing is just like going and playing.
But I think there there is an importance on developing
(28:15):
technique because if you can develop that at a young age,
then it's just going to be easier than like there are there
is growing pains with trying to develop and and make changes the
older you get. But no, like, I mean, think
about Matt turn around. I think listen to a podcast that
he was on and like he didn't like start playing in goal till
(28:37):
like stop from your high school.Like, you know, like there,
there are going to be stories like that.
There's going to be people who are just like crazy athletic and
can develop enough technique to then get themselves to the next
level. But I, I do think from like a
more broad and like general perspective that your chances of
(28:59):
if you, if you want to go to thepathway of high school, then to
college and then from there potentially playing pro, I think
you're going to have maybe a more successful route.
If you are playing in a more private like league or when
you're getting like better coaching.
But like, and if you can get quality coaching from like the Y
(29:21):
or something like that, then like that's perfect.
You know, I think a lot of it ishow much are you willing to like
put into it as well. There's a lot of times where
like my club team would train onlike a Tuesday or Thursday and
we play a game on Saturday. Well, I would do private
goalkeeper training on like the Monday.
I would then on like the Wednesday and like the Friday I
(29:41):
would go and like do ball striking on like a field like by
my house. And I'll do that on my own, like
in the dark. You know, like, those are the
things where it doesn't matter if you're in like an Academy or
if you're just playing like local high school soccer.
If you're putting in that work and taking the time to work on
the things that you actually need to work on, then like
(30:04):
you're going to make progress, you know?
Yeah, it's really cool. It's really interesting to hear
because I sort of, I feel like Ikind of have a hot take towards
it. I personally, I don't like how
privatized sport is becoming in the US.
I'm more of a communal, communalbased sport connoisseur or
philosopher I guess. And I've got a, I've got a, a
(30:25):
tab open right now on Project Play, which is a a nonprofit
organization that looks at childsport participation.
They did a, a sort of demographic research endeavour
in 2022 and they found that the most expensive sport for a kid
to play is soccer. And in 2022, it was $1188 per
(30:48):
season. And in 2022, families spent on
an estimate in the entire US 30 to 40 billion on children's
sports. And personally, I think that's
absolutely insane. And I think that this price tag
of 1200 bucks for one season, like, you know, your season, I
(31:10):
remember my season was what likein the summer, kind of like 3-4
months, maybe like like 4, maybefive months, if that.
So like 1200 bucks over 5 month period.
Like that's a, it's a pretty good amount of money.
And I, I, I fear that this privatization of, of youth sport
is pricing out a lot of people. And that's like kind of why I
(31:31):
asked you that sort of YMCA question because I, I really
like the way that Europe is designed with community sport
and it's ran basically funded bythe government and it's free,
you know, like anybody in the community goes in and
participates. But with the US, it's privatized
and there's always a price tag on it and people have to pay and
(31:54):
it's just sort of wild. And I feel like families sort of
have to put other things on the back burner just to place their
kid to give them a chance. And I liked what you said that
maybe they don't even have to do.
I think they just need to play in general.
And I think it doesn't matter. And just valuing the experience
over the price tag, which I think is phenomenal advice.
(32:15):
I think that's really cool and really cool to think about.
But that sort of transitions us into a really cool halftime.
We'll go ahead and take a littlebit of a break and we'll be back
here in about 10 seconds. OK, welcome back everyone.
(32:45):
Hope you all enjoyed the first half of this episode.
We talked a lot about experiences and a professional
sport, what it looks like in thecollegiate atmosphere, what it
looked like in the youth atmosphere, sort of motivations,
psychological connections, things of that nature.
A lot of cool stories shared from Michael here.
(33:06):
Thank you very much for for those stories.
That was really cool. I'd love to transition into a
bit more of a theoretical or in depth conversation sort of about
how you view yourself in society.
So there's actually a very famous, well known sociological
theory called social identity theory that talks a lot about
(33:27):
how basically how individuals will see themselves within
society and how they'll place themselves into an end group.
And so for example, in your case, you've placed yourself
into the the athletic in Group and you are now an athlete and
you may identify as an athlete and that is who you are.
You see yourself as an athlete and that is sort of your in
(33:50):
Group. And this theory talks about how
individuals will find sort of peace and cohesion and
acceptance when you find that inGroup.
And I'm curious, do you view yourself as athlete first?
Do you think when I was explaining social identity, did
it make sense? Do you do you agree that you put
athlete first, or do you put something else first?
(34:12):
Yeah, I think it's very easy forathletes, but just anyone in
general to to put what they spend most of their time as
their identity. So there's a, there's a famous
quote that I've heard, or it's like, you show me your calendar
and I'll tell you what your priorities are.
Athletes predominantly spend their time playing their sport,
(34:35):
not even playing their sport, but preparing for their sports.
The way they eat, the way they sleep, the way they spend their
time. And I think for the majority of
my life, I did identify myself as a soccer player.
I mentioned earlier in the the podcast that I had experienced
like a car crash and then being able to get my first contract
previously after that car crash.And that was kind of the
(34:56):
catalyst for my faith journey. And now I identify myself as a
follower of Christ. Number one, that is what my
identity is. That is my purpose, not soccer,
not a coach's opinion, not how Iperform, not how I trained that
day. That doesn't define who I am.
And I think so much of my life Ispent feeling how I trained.
(35:21):
If I had a good training session, if I made saves, then I
was on top of the world, I was living life.
But if I had a bad training session, if I made a mistake
that led to a goal in a game, then that day, the days
following, I was in a low place.And especially as a goalkeeper,
(35:41):
where mistakes are even more punishable, even more glaring
and obvious, It's it's heightened.
You know, I think especially theposition of a goalkeeper is, I
think there's a certain personality that you need to
have to be a goalie. There's the constant desire of
(36:04):
perfection because one mistake can lead to a goal.
And I think that is a very, verydangerous spot when your
identity is in soccer. I just think about my time in
college and I mentioned around 2020 I was experiencing like
(36:25):
real and serious burnout. Spring 2019 was the closest I
was ever to playing soccer. I wasn't enjoying it.
I wasn't playing while I was miserable.
Like I was just like exhausted constantly.
And I can distinctly remember training, it was like a
Wednesday or a Thursday, like a training session.
(36:46):
And it was later than normal because someone had a night
class or something. And like, we were doing like a
finishing drill. I was conceding goals.
And the GA at the time looked atme and I was like, mate, like
you're supposed to be enjoying yourself.
Like this is like a game that you've dreamed about since you
were a little kid. Like you don't look happy.
I'm like, I'm not. And if it wasn't for him, I
(37:10):
probably wouldn't still be playing soccer, honestly, like
incredible guy. And he was like literally like
mid session. He's just like, look, if you
ever need to talk about like anything, like what's going on,
like my office is always open. Like we can come in, like we can
have a chat. And I think just like the way
that he pursued me that spring gave me the encouragement to
(37:33):
continue to keep playing to to try and change my perspective,
my mentality of how I saw soccerand how I saw myself.
And he ended up leaving and going to take a different
coaching position after that spring.
But that following fall was the best season in Missouri State
history. And I got to be a part of it.
Like we went 18 O and one and like we won an NCAA game for the
(38:00):
very first time and like the school's history.
And like if it wasn't for him and the way that he pursued me,
then I wouldn't have been able to be a part of that, you know,
And but I was still internally dealing with dealing with like I
an identity crisis of like I am a soccer player.
(38:22):
And so like, if we win, then like I'm flying and like, we had
good seasons. And so like I was, I was doing
fine. But then your college career
comes to an end at a certain point, you know, and then it's
like, OK, can I, can I make it to like the next level?
Can I play professionally? And I was very fortunate because
(38:46):
I have seen God meet me through soccer so clearly that he, he's
completely changed my perspective on everything.
And not only did like he changedmy plans of like I was going to
play 4 1/2 years and then like go and play soccer, but like
(39:09):
because of COVID, I got the opportunity to play for my
hometown and it's inaugural seasons.
And through my experience at Saint Louis, there was a team
Bible study and a chaplain who is a dear friend of mine now who
like taught me what it means to to follow Jesus, what that
(39:30):
actually looks like, what a relationship with Jesus is and
how to make that your identity in a performance based industry.
Because it is so difficult. I was having a, a conversation
with another friend of mine who's a who is a goalkeeper.
And he was just saying like, I don't know how anyone could have
(39:51):
any self worth in this industry without Christ.
And it's so true because I wouldsay the vast majority of
professional soccer players, if you ask them what their hobby
is, they couldn't tell you theirhobby.
If you ask them what they would do if they didn't play soccer,
they'd be like, I don't know. I don't this is it.
This is it for me. I saw.
(40:12):
Soccer. Exactly.
Like I am group basically. And like you ask them what they
do when they go home from training and they go home and
they play video games the whole rest of the day.
And so when they do get injured,when they don't get that next
contract and they have to make these decisions, their whole
(40:33):
world is is shook. They don't they don't know what
to do. They don't know who they are.
And I think that has been probably something, one of the
things that I'm most passionate about is getting to these,
especially young guys, just getting to them and just like
sharing with them that like, no,like you're so much more than
just a soccer player. You're so much more than like
(40:53):
your profession. You yourself worth isn't wrapped
up in a coach's opinion of you, you know?
Yeah, that's interesting that when you're speaking about all
these things, it's really cool. There's actually a, a research
article that just came out or not just in, in 2021.
It's titled Identification in Sport and Religion and it
(41:14):
explores the, the, the relationship between those two
identities of athlete or at our fan versus religion.
And what reminded me when you'respeaking about these things is
that Notre Dame quarterback Riley Leonard, I remember very
vividly after the game or a couple of those playoff games
(41:35):
that he would get interviewed. And immediately the very, very
first thing he said was like, I want to thank God or, or
something of that nature. And I'm, I feel like it's
starting to become a lot more common where I'm hearing these
postgame interviews. And the very, very first thing
they say is I want to thank God.And like, I think that's very
(41:55):
interesting how this article specifically looks at fandom,
but they go into into a small paragraph here.
They say that past research has shown that sport fandom is one
of the strongest identifiers at which at which I agree.
There's a lot of like individuals that are passionate
and I'm sure you've experienced some very passionate fans in the
(42:16):
past and how they identify very passionately as a sport fan.
But the article that was released by Doctor Katz and a
couple of others, it shows that that fandom actually may
decrease and may go down if there are additional more
meaningful identities. And what it's suggesting here is
(42:38):
religious identity. And it's really cool that you
basically said that you put athletics first and then you
sort of met God or met Jesus, and then that became 1st.
And that put things on the back burner, which is really
interesting. Do you think in any way, shape
or form do you feel like that this may be a crazy question,
(42:59):
but you think this like putting that identity first, did that
hinder performance or does that hinder your perception of sport
or your perception of being a pro athlete?
I'm just curious, has that changed the way you just view
life? You know, you're not just an
athlete, you're, you know, a follower of Christ first.
So I'm curious what your thoughts are.
(43:21):
Yeah, honestly, it's changed everything.
Number one, I think being a follower of Christ has saved my
career. I think I was so afraid of
making a mistake that like, I didn't enjoy playing games.
I would have performance anxiety.
I would go into a game of thinking like I can't mess up.
I have to do XY and Z. And I think like having my
(43:44):
identity rooted in Christ that gave me the freedom that I
lifted a weight off my shoulder where I could go out and I could
play. And I know regardless of win,
draw or loss mistake, incrediblegame, I would still be loved by
the creator of the universe. And I think like that is so
(44:04):
freeing to know that and that like no work I do is going to
make God love me more, love me less.
So I think my relationship with Price has saved my career.
I think it has definitely changed where I spend my time
and what I prioritize. I think about just, I would
(44:31):
especially there's also a transition when you you go from
like college to professional andit is a profession and it is
like a job. It's so easy.
It's just human nature to lose sight of the fact that like
you're literally doing somethingthat you dreamed about when you
were five. And it's so easy to complain
about not having control over your schedule, not being able to
(44:56):
do things on the weekend, traveling and being stuck in the
airport for hours and not getting any sleep.
Like the just the nasty stuff ofbeing a professional athlete
that like most people don't think about.
It's so easy to get wrapped up in that and see like soccer as
just a job. But I think honestly, it's given
(45:17):
me like new perspective and almost a new passion for soccer.
It's I've, I've seen it differently.
It's, I've seen it as just like incredible opportunity to share
cracks with like my teammates and just to be an ambassador
Christ. And he's giving me like God's
giving me an incredible gift anda talent.
And it's also when injuries haveoccurred, it's me not thinking
(45:43):
like, why is this happened to me?
But like, why is this happened for me?
And it's helped me self reflect in that aspect and, and be
hopeful for the future because I'm currently going through
concussion protocol. I've been out for seven weeks
now and have been still experiencing symptoms and this
(46:05):
whole time I keep telling my wife this is going to be 1 heck
of a story because I don't know what God is doing in my life.
I don't know why there's been this pause, but I feel like it
has been a pause for renewal, for me to get healthy, to get
back playing and go back into that with a completely different
(46:26):
perspective, a completely different mindset of of how I
see training, how I see soccer. Yeah, that's really interesting.
One, one thing that sort of justpopped in my head, I I've
experienced multiple concussionsas well.
And that what's that? That's what's actually sidelined
me. I had three concussions my
spring semester. And actually really funny story,
(46:47):
one of them I got because my coach, our coach was playing
with us and he was, he was bald and there's a cross that came in
from the side and I was blinded by the sun and I saw the
reflection of a bald head. And I thought that was the ball.
And I just like headed. But it was him.
And it was a terrible, like I was young, obviously the
(47:08):
terrible mistake. But I, I like rammed my head on
his and I got a concussion from it.
And it's sort of, yeah, it's really funny and like kind of a
crazy story. But that makes me curious
because if we we both experienceconcussions and like, they are
no joke. And so I'm very curious what
your thought is with professional football players,
(47:30):
Like there's got to be somethingin the in the juice because I'm
sure someone gets a concussion like every game or someone does
every week. And there's no way they can come
back in five days. Like I was out for months, you
know, and you said you're in seven weeks.
So like, what are your thoughts?I'm just curious what are your
(47:50):
thoughts on that? Honestly, the more that I have
been doing research on concussions, the more I've
realized there's like not enoughresearch on concussions.
It is literally off of that's the thing too.
It's it's chemical, it's how your brain feels, how you're
physically feel. And so it's like, it's literally
all about how honest you are going to be with yourself to
(48:11):
then tell the trainer. Like now I'm still experiencing
symptoms, I have a headache, I have pressure in my head and not
lying to yourself or not. And that's The thing is, like
with with a broken arm, someone can look like, no, your arm's
still broken. But like with you're having
pressure in your head or a headache and you feel like dizzy
or feel nauseous. Like to a certain extent, you
(48:32):
can put your head down and you can like, push through it, you
know, and you might not be to like your best, but like, you
can still kind of get away with it.
And that's why all of these football players are getting CTE
because there's all of these micro impacts every single time
they're getting hit. And it's every single game.
And then they're not being honest about how they actually
(48:55):
are feeling. Yeah, yeah.
It's it makes, that's the thing,like with this concussion, it
just made me really concerned ofjust like future football
players. Yeah.
And their mental health. Yeah, I agree.
I think one, one thing that's really interesting, I remember
hearing, I don't remember where I heard this from, but either a
previous rugby athlete or something, a previous rugby
(49:16):
scientist, but they were an ex rugby player.
And then they came over to the NFL and played like a game or
something. And they said that people in the
NFL tackle like ridiculously, because in rugby there's no pads
and then you you go in shoulder first, but people in the NFL go
in head like head first everywhere.
And like, it's sort of wild to me, like, and I'm curious,
(49:41):
random question, but do you think at some point when you do
recover, are you gonna wear the,the, the check the Peter check
helmet and sort of go from there?
I'm curious what your thoughts are.
So I've done research on the Peter Check helmets and honestly
they don't protect. They protect from lacerations
and cauliflower here. But there has been a lot of
(50:04):
studies that have shown that they don't.
It's just false sense of security.
There is a new thing called AQ collar.
Yeah, I've heard of that. I have one I'm going to try out
when I get healthy, but there's been some promising research.
It's still like pretty new but it increases blood flow to the
brain and helps protect and has reduced concussions.
(50:28):
So I'm going to try that out when I do get healthy and
hopefully it helps. That's yeah, it's I mean, that's
great that you're you're taking it very seriously because I
guess PSA, like anyone listeningout there, concussions are, are
real deal. Like it is, it is nothing to
joke if you hit your head on anything like take the time
because you never know what lifeis going to be like in 1020
(50:49):
years. If you decide to brush it off,
like, you know, some other athletes may be doing you, you
don't know the ramifications. Like you said, like you break
your arm, you can see that you're not healed yet, but you
don't know. You don't know, like you can't
easily tell. And so, and it's hard to be
honest with yourself. I agree.
Like there's a lot of there. I remember there are a lot of
(51:09):
times when I was injured to recover and I was like, oh, I
can totally go, I can do. But then when I hit full Sprint,
I'd like black out, you know, because like there's just so
much pressure when you're at full Sprint.
And that just it worried, it's terrified me.
And that was one of the reasons why I ended up transferring
away. But sort of want to transition
into your life as an athlete andsort of your perception of being
(51:33):
a pro athlete. Is there like any pros and cons
that you've sort of surfaced or experienced now that you're a
professional athlete? Yeah, honestly, there's a
there's a ton of pros and cons. I think it is one of the most
unique positions in the world that someone like professions
that someone can have. I think the fact that I can work
(51:53):
from 8:45 to like 1 and like someone pay me for that to like
play a game where like realistically, like that's the
time I'm at the facility, but like you're trained for like an
hour, hour and a half and then maybe do an away session like
that is a a dream come true. That is the greatest privilege
and the greatest honor ever for especially like, I think back
(52:16):
about like 5 year old me, like first starting to play soccer
and like me watching like the EUR and like dreaming about
becoming a professional soccer player.
To have that privilege has been like a huge blessing.
But I think like they're also are like a lot of cons that
people don't think about is the fact that from mid January till
(52:39):
October, you really have no control of your schedule.
You're getting, maybe you're getting like a month calendar
from the club telling you like events.
But then there's also the possibility of like things
changing like week of like or yeah.
So like it's almost impossible to plan off.
Days are usually Sunday and Monday.
(53:01):
So like my weekend is a Sunday, Monday where all most people are
working on a Monday and most people are getting ready for
work the next day on a Sunday. So like having like a social
life is also different. Traveling also like I have been
all over the United States, but the majority of the time that
(53:22):
I've spent all over the United States, I've spent in an
airport, a hotel or in a soccer field.
And it's not the most glamorous thing in the world, but like, I
don't want it all to sound like negative.
I think one of the most beautiful things about being a
professional soccer player is being able to kind of like
college soccer is being able to meet people from all over the
world. I think about just like, yes,
(53:45):
you are traveling a lot. You're spending a lot of time in
the locker room, but just like the random inside jokes you have
with teammates who are just likethe, the times where you're so
bored that you're just trying topass time and like making
incredible memories. Those are the things that you
remember. And I, I mean, you hear about
all the time, but like guys, they retire and the thing that
they miss most is not actually like sport, but it's the
camaraderie they have with theirteammates.
(54:06):
And like, even with this concussion, there was a week I
spent away from the facility andI was going crazy just like not
being around the guys. And just like that is your
instant community. It's crazy because like you move
to a new city and you don't knowanyone, but then boom, you have
instinct community. You've got 25 guys that are all
(54:26):
in like pretty much the same boat that you're in.
They don't know anyone else, butthey have a common interest.
And so that is something that I'm really grateful for because
I have met some incredible friends and like for life
through through the sport. Yeah, it's, that's really cool.
I'm sort of really curious. Do you think there's anything
throughout this process, throughout this experience, or
(54:48):
maybe anything that you've decided, is there anything that
you regret that maybe you wish you would have done differently
or approached differently now that you're where you're at now?
I think about how I spend like my time after training.
And I think that has like definitely changed like each
(55:09):
season. Last season I ended up getting
my real estate license. I took like, congratulations for
that. Thank you.
But like I was studying for that.
And because like there you do have so much free time in the
afternoon. And it's just like, how can I
maximize that time? How can I not just waste it by
(55:31):
like watching TV or scrolling onmy phone?
And I think, yeah, maybe from from my like first season, kind
of like trying to to maximize that while I could.
It's kind of been like last yearand then this year where I
really tried to actually like dostuff with my free time.
(55:51):
I think my first two years I waslike, I just want to focus on
soccer. I don't want to do anything
else. But now it's like, OK, like I
have like this platform, I can use it to partner with like
companies and, and do things like that.
And that's what I've been starting to get into.
And I've done some like content like creating and stuff like
that, you know, which I think it's been really rewarding and
(56:14):
it's been fun to do and could potentially be like an Ave.
after soccer, you know, which isgreat.
Yeah, it's cool. So that leads me into like a
final question here. It's like, what, what next?
You know, like obviously being apro athlete doesn't last
forever. Like have you, have you thought
about what comes afterwards? And obviously you, you sort of
hinted at it. You you're making content.
(56:36):
You got your real estate license.
Do you think you're going to move into real estate?
Do you have any thoughts, any any sort of dreams, any goals
after professional sport? Yeah, I think honestly, I've
always, my undergrad was entrepreneurship and I've always
had an entrepreneurial spirit about me.
And one of my my passions is cooking.
(56:56):
One of the things that I spent alot of my free time doing is
cooking. And so I have always wanted to
open up a food truck with my dad.
I always joke around with him that as soon as he retires, I'm
gonna put him back to work and we're gonna open up a food
truck. But that's definitely something
that love to do. Real estate.
(57:19):
I'm testing the waters this year.
It hasn't gone great so far, buthopefully we can we can get the
ball rolling a bit more. But yeah, honestly, I think I'm
I'm optimistic. I'm open to life after soccer.
It's not one of those things that I'm afraid of.
It's not one of those things that I dread, but it's
definitely something that want to be in the future.
(57:42):
I, I want to keep playing, I want to enjoy this this career
as long as I can because I know it is a gift.
I know it is only for a short period of time in my life.
So I think also like having likemy identity not wrapped up in
soccer also gives me the freedomto to dream about like things
after soccer, you know? Yeah, that's a great, that's a
(58:03):
great statement. I was that actually it's on a
follow up question that I had that really just hit in my mind.
I'm curious if you in an if hypothetical situation, if your
first identity wasn't Christ centered and it was athlete
centered, do you feel like you would have answered that
question? I just asked differently.
A. 100% yeah. I think there'd be a lot more
(58:24):
confusion of what life after soccer actually looks like.
Yeah, I think there would be a astubbornness of wanting to hold
on to it and force it. Right.
It's sort of hints, I guess, nothints, but my connection is how
all these, I don't want to say washed up, but retired,
basically retired athletes out of Europe come to the MLS and
(58:48):
the MLS has been coined as like the retirement league.
And I'm curious like what your thoughts are on that?
Like if you're if you are in Europe and you're, you know,
athlete first, athlete first, athletes first and you're afraid
of retirement and people now andyou're now coming to to America,
like I'm curious what your thoughts are in this whole
retirement league. We have Messi now, which has
(59:10):
like skyrocketed interest in sport and interest in soccer,
which is phenomenal. But I think it would have been
great if we have more people in their prime in the MLS instead
of people coming when they're like 40.
And so I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that.
Yeah. Honestly, I think more and more
(59:31):
we're getting guys that are still serious about playing.
I mean, I think about Red Bull, they've got Troopa Moting,
they've got Forsberg, LA Galaxy has Ricky Pooch.
I mean even Roman Berkey at Saint Louis, like if you've
watched him play, he is still very serious about soccer.
(59:51):
I mean he was been lights out every game that he's played for
Saint Louis. I think the league is getting
more and more competitive and the quality is getting higher
and higher and even OK in Miami you could say that their team is
filled up with guys that are in late 30s, but like they're still
incredible team that are like pushing to win trophies, you
(01:00:14):
know. So I think.
If we can get high quality players to the MLS, I think it's
only good for the league. Yeah, yeah, I agree.
I I really want someday at some at some point for the North
American soccer land, mostly US soccer landscape to compete.
I just want to compete. I want players to want to come
(01:00:36):
to the US, but I think we're we're sort of on that like tail
end or we're, we're sort of teetering towards the tail end
of that retirement league aspect.
And like you said, there are a lot of people in the league that
really do take it serious. And people are starting to take
the league a lot more seriously,which is phenomenal.
And I think we're on that sort of back end.
(01:00:57):
And I'm really, really looking forward to how the next like
5-10 years are going to look like.
And I'm hoping we can compete inthe World Cup.
I'm curious what your thoughts are And, you know, do you think
the US is going to compete in the World Cup in 28?
Like what do you think is going to happen?
Honestly, so much can change from here to that.
Like, I think about, I mean, even like the last World Cup
(01:01:18):
cycle, like Zach Stefan was the goalie the entire time.
And then like, Turner kind of comes out of nowhere and like,
is the guy. Like, that can happen in a
moment, You know, you have no clue what young players just
kind of like develop out of nowhere and become hot and make
a World Cup roster. But honestly, I'm optimistic.
I think anything can happen, especially US playing on home
(01:01:38):
soil. I think we've got a great like,
core, we've got an incredible manager with a ton of
experience. And I think it's very early
stages. People are going to want to talk
and they're going to want to bash the United States for
recent games and recent performances.
But I mean, the World Cup isn't here yet.
It all depends on the ones that actually happens in the group
(01:02:00):
stage. I think about like England, the
World Cup or their World Cup andEuro qualifiers.
Everyone's always complaining about how boring they are.
And even in the tournament they'll complain about how
boring they are and then they'llmake the final or the semifinal,
you know. So I think people have a lot of
opinions and they they want to make a fuss and it's as easy to
(01:02:20):
to bash teams, but I'm optimistic.
I'm Bruton for the US and I think we can make something
happen. Yeah, I think so too.
I'm a I'm a AC Milan fan and we got Captain America, AC Milan
with, with Pulicich. So he's sort of pioneering.
They call him Captain America and on the on the team and then
in Italy. It's really interesting and
really cool. It's and then you're starting to
(01:02:41):
see, I think you're starting to see a lot more US athletes and
top tier leagues. You know, you got Anthony
Robinson at Fulham, Pulicich, ACMilan.
I think Josh Sargent's at Norwich, but I think he should
leave. He should transfer somewhere
else to get some more playing time.
Matt Turner, I think should alsomaybe think about moving to get
some more playing time. But they're in quality, quality
(01:03:03):
leagues. And so I think it's really cool
where maybe 1020 years ago all of our athletes came from the
MLS, but now they're all in these top 4 leagues.
They're all in. A lot of them are in Europe.
They're, you know, very, very highly qualified.
So it's really cool to really cool to see.
I'm really looking forward to World Cup and hoping that we can
we can compete. That sort of transitions towards
(01:03:26):
the end of the podcast episode. I really appreciate you taking
the time to join and speak with me.
I really enjoyed this this episode and I hope everyone out
there enjoyed the listen and I hope everyone in sort of enjoys
their their their night and enjoyed the episode.
So thank you very much for joining me, and I hope you
recover well from your concussion.
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
This was awesome. Yeah.
(01:03:47):
Thank you very much.
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