Exposing The Church’s SILENT Struggle with P*rn | #reChurch Ep. 17

The statistics of p*rn addiction in and outside the Church are staggering. Even among pastors and leaders. Today we dive into this much needed conversation with Sathiya Sam founder of DeepClean to expose the epidemic were facing and most importantly how we can overcome it.

Sathiya has helped guide over 10,000 men through freedom to become better husbands, fathers and most importantly men of God!

Connect with Sathiya:

https://www.sathiyasam.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sathiyamesam

Get a FREE copy of his book: https://www.sathiyasam.com/books

✅ Follow Justin:

https://www.instagram.com/justin.knoop

https://www.youtube.com/@reChurchPodcast

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
There's so much research now that actually shows
negatively rewires your brain.
It reduces relationship quality.
It increases your chance ofdivorce and it's certainly a lot
easier talking about it nowthan it was a few years ago.
It doesn't fall into normaladdiction models and a lot of
that research is socialscientists that were trying to
understand.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
With your own addiction.
You said there was a lot ofways that you went and tried to
get help first.
That didn't work.
Do you remember the point whereyou hit, where you're like all
right, this is a major problem Iwas 20 years old.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
I was very high, achieving academically, skipped
a grade and went straight intouniversity.
I was really a new christian.
I grew up in church, but thiswas sort of the stage of my life
where I start to own my faithand I decided I was going to
commit my life to jesus.
I knew that with thatcommitment I had to clean up my
lifestyle.
I knew that means I couldn'tdrink on the weekends or if I
was going to drink I had to beresponsibly.
I had to clean up my languageand I had to stop watching.
The first two were easy, but Iprobably went about three days

(00:49):
without watching and I rememberjust thinking how do you guys
help people beyond recovery ifthat makes?
sense Definitely Very goodquestion.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
Welcome to the ReChurch podcast.
If you're tired of business asusual Christianity and you're
ready to live just like Jesus,you found yourself in the right
place.
Today we're actually gonna talkabout a topic that I believe,
and I think many others believe,is not discussed enough in the
church.
We're gonna get into why it'snot discussed a lot in the
church and then also what we cando to really help people

(01:22):
overcome this.
So today I've got a greatfriend with me.
Today I've got Sathya.
Sathya has an amazing testimony.
He struggled with our topictoday, which is pornography.
He struggled with it for 15years, and the cool thing about
Sathya is is he didn't justbreak free from it himself.
He has now dedicated his lifeto helping others break free

(01:46):
from this horrible addiction.
So, uh, cynthia, thanks forbeing with us today.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
It's an honor to be here, man.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
Thanks for having me excited all the way from Canada.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah, let's go yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
How's the?
Uh?
How's the weather in Canada?

Speaker 1 (01:56):
right now Really bad, really bad.
Now I will say I actually spentmy winters in Jamaica cause my
wife is Jamaican, yeah, and so Icame here from Jamaica.
So I actually you, because mywife is Jamaican and so I came
here from Jamaica.
So I actually, you know, it'sactually colder here in Texas
than it is in JamaicaInteresting, yeah, so I made a
sacrifice to be here.
But after this I go back toCanada and I think it's still
going to be cold there.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, yeah, totally.
I've been to Canada multipletimes.
I don't know if you knew, butI'm from Buffalo, new.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
Oh, so I'm 20 minutes just on the other side of that
border.
Yeah, 45 minute drive toBuffalo, gotcha In Toronto.
Uh, yeah, st Catherine's is thecity.
Okay, yeah, just outside ofNiagara Falls.
Awesome, awesome, yeah, so cool.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
So cool?
Um so, yeah, so jumping rightin.
Um, why do you think number one, why do you think this is is is
a topic that is typicallysteered clear of.
You don't hear a lot of pastors, a lot of leaders, really a lot
of people in general, havingthis discussion.
It seems to be something thatpeople want to keep behind

(02:52):
closed doors, but yet we knowthat a lot of people struggle
with this.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yeah.
So I mean, okay, I'm aspecialist in pornography
addiction.
You hear the word addiction andyou know you think alcohol,
gambling, drugs, those are alllike socially accepted
addictions, right.
And then pornography kind offalls in this weird category
where people are like, oh, canyou really be addicted to it?
I mean, even amongstresearchers and academics
there's a lot of contentionaround is it really legitimate?

(03:19):
So there's already that pieceof it where, like, even on a
social level, if we get outsideof the church, there's some
question marks around it.
But it is in the scope ofaddiction and people generally
don't.
We don't talk about addictionunless it's in the right
environment, right, the rightcontext.
But then pornography is also inthe umbrella category of
sexuality and there are certaintopics in today's day and age,

(03:39):
as we know, that you can talkabout very openly in the
category of sexuality.
But pornography is incrediblyprivate, it's very personal and
especially once we get into thechurch it really the only thing
you ever hear about pornographyis don't watch it, it's bad for
you.
So I think, I think thatbecause it's it's sexual and
it's personal and it's a subjectthat is already uncomfortable

(03:59):
for a lot of believers todiscuss.
Plus, you have the some of thestigmatization around addiction
and stuff.
It just makes it.
It's just buried like eightlayers deep in any conversation
in a typical church.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yeah, cause you made me think when you said that.
I was like well, honestly, whenyou look at mainstream social
media, I mean there really is anargument of whether or not it's
a bad thing, or?
Not have, you have you run intowith, with what you do in the
or not?
Have you, have you run intowith, with what you do in the,
in the people that you help, umhaving to convince people, or

(04:33):
have you had a lot ofconversations in past podcasts
and stuff that you've done justtrying to?

Speaker 1 (04:35):
convince people that it's not a good thing.
Yeah, very, very much.
So I think that a lot of peopleare oblivious.
Even people in the church don'treally realize how bad
pornography is.
They kind of get like, okay,sex is for marriage and you know
I can't have affairs, but youknow pornography like that's
just me doing my own thing,what's the big deal?
So we get that a lot and thenobviously, once you get outside
of the four walls of the church,we get a lot of pushback or

(04:56):
just people not understanding.
And the reality is so.
Before I was a pastor for 10years, before I became a pastor,
I was a university researcher.
So that's part of my mandate istrying to infuse science and
scripture together to reallybring proper truth to the
subject.
And there's so much researchnow that actually shows porn
negatively rewires your brain,it reduces relationship quality,

(05:19):
it increases your chance ofdivorce.
I mean there's so much researchnow.
So I think people are startingto wake up to it a lot more and
it's certainly a lot easiertalking about it now than it was
a few years ago.
But there is still a lot ofcontention around like it
doesn't fall into normaladdiction models, it's just it's
in kind of the wild, wild westa little bit.
So I think that's why peopleare still trying to figure it
out.
But I think it's the modern daycigarette.

(05:41):
You know, I think right noweveryone's like, yeah, porn
doesn't seem to be that bad.
And you know, some people theydo it and they spice up their
sex life and it's great, um.
But I think as more of theresearch starts to come out, I
think people are going torealize, no, this stuff kills
you, it kills your soul and it'sreally not not worth it.
And that's that's the worldthat I'm kind of dreaming and
trying to pioneer a little bit.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
Yeah, no, that's amazing and that's interesting
too.
I also didn't think of it fromthat perspective, but, um, I
guess it's got to be.
People have to be waking up tothe seriousness of it if they're
actually, you know, doingstudies and there's actually,
you know, in-depth research onit to figure out how this
actually affects us yeah uh,even if you're not coming from a
faith background, but like, allright, how does this, how does
it actually affect your brainand yes in relationships and

(06:23):
stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
So and a lot of that research is social scientists
that we're trying to understandthe impacts of tech on youth.
That's kind of how it startedbecause, you know, we're sort of
like 10-15 years into the techrevolution with social media and
smart devices and all that, andin their research, just
pornography just kept coming upagain and again because exposure
is happening at such a youngage.
Yeah, guys are watching it alot, getting addicted and then

(06:46):
starting their careers.
Now we have kind of the firstgeneration that are starting
their careers addicted to porn,you know, and they don't know
what to do with it.
So they weren't even lookingfor it but they found it along
the way, because you can't havethe conversation around tech
addiction or social mediaaddiction without also talking
about pornography.
It's just, it's it's embeddedin that set of sorry, embedded
in that set of behaviors.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
What like off the top of your head, what are some,
some statistics that probablymost people watching right now
would would be like oh, I didn'tknow that.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
So, uh, the porn industry generates more revenue
than the NBA, the NFL and majorleague baseball combined.
Um, it gets more traffic.
Uh, sorry, the top three pornsites get more traffic than
Twitter, amazon and Netflixcombined.
So we're talking about likebillions, billions of users
monthly, and that's really justmaybe the top three porn sites,

(07:35):
top five porn sites.
Once you kind of get intosociety, you find that by the
time somebody is 10, 11 yearsold, they've probably been
exposed to pornography.
Some studies say it's as youngas eight years old, 40, no,
sorry, let me get the stat right25% of men under the age of 40
report issues with erectiledysfunction now, and that might,

(07:58):
that might seem like a littlebit out of nowhere, but in 2001,
it was 5%.
So we've seen a 5X increase inerectile dysfunction.
And pornography, I believe, isthe main cause of this.
Because pornography ishardwiring the brains of young
boys in this instance, but younggirls as well.
It's hardwiring them toexperience unnatural levels of
stimulation, to experiencearousal.

(08:19):
And when you get exposed tothis at a young age, by the time
you start having sexualexperiences, your body just
doesn't respond, because aninteraction with a real person
is not nearly as stimulating aswhat they've been watching
online for maybe a decade.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
Almost desensitized.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
Yeah, that's actually .
That's the neurological term isthat they're desensitized.
So you see that happen.
56% of divorces cite thepartner's porn use as one of the
primary reasons.
So it's actually really wrappedup in the divorce stats as well
.
And I think probably the mostinteresting or the most
important of all is that whenpeople watch pornography this is

(08:55):
if we're going to get outsideof the church I have some church
stats as well but outside ofthe church, when people watch
pornography, they initiallyreport an increase in
relationship satisfaction,sexual satisfaction and all that
.
But the longer that you followthese couples, the greater the
risks are of divorce, the lowerthe relationship quality is and
everything else.
So it really just destroys youon all fronts.
All of the viewership statsoutside, which is about I think

(09:18):
it's about 68% of men and about34, 35% of women that are
watching pornography with someregularity pretty much identical
in the church, not really anydifference.
9% of all local churches havesomething to offer their
congregants in this area.
So you're talking about, like asilent epidemic, people

(09:41):
screaming for help, peoplelosing marriages over it, people
losing jobs.
We have a lot of our clients,unfortunately, that have lost
work and that kind of stuff overit and just nowhere to turn.
You know no one's offering theright help.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah, that's what you may have partially answered my
next question, but that's why Iwas going to ask you why.
Why are the statistics the sameinside and outside of the
church?

Speaker 1 (10:01):
I mean definitely, definitely it's.
The church isn't offering thehelp.
I think that's the first thing.
But the second thing isactually the churches aren't
even preaching on it, like likeI know.
I mean, you went to localchurch for a long time.
I was a local church pastor for10 plus years.
How many times did you hearsomebody from the pulpit talking
about pornography?
Right, almost never.
So.
So if you're not talking aboutit on a on a Sunday morning, or
you're not talking about it whenyou're not talking about it on

(10:21):
a Sunday morning, or you're nottalking about it when you're
gathered, then people aren'tgoing to do anything about it.
They might even they stillmaybe know it's wrong, they wish
they could do something, butyou're not giving them the
permission.
And I think, if I can go onelayer deeper on that, I was a
pastor, I'm a fourth generationpastor, so dad, grandpa and
great grandpa all pastors aswell.
And as pastors, ourresponsibility is to lead our

(10:42):
sheep through the differentarenas of life.
You know, there's a part of thefield called finances, there's
one called grace and mercy,there's one called relationships
, and it's our job to be able tosteer our congregations through
these different pastors of thefield, and somewhere in the
field there's a pastor calledsexual integrity, and most
pastors can't go there withtheir sheep because they don't

(11:04):
have access to it themselves,like the stats among pastors
that are struggling is.
It's abysmal, you know, it's50% plus, depending on the
survey With youth pastors,you're talking 60, 70% of them
are struggling with pornographyand so they don't have any
authority in this area.
They don't know how to breakfree themselves, so they can't
help other people do it in theirhearts.
I'm sure they want to, but wedon't know how to break free
themselves, so they can't helpother people do it In their

(11:25):
hearts.
I'm sure they want to, but wedon't have the tools, we don't
have the keys, we don't have theaccess that we need to actually
lead people into freedom.

Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yeah, and we talked about this a little bit off
camera On this podcast.
People who have watchedmultiple of our episodes know
that we generally critique someof that structure, that
hierarchical structure that hasbeen built up because you have a
person that's been put in aposition and they're looked at
in a certain way, they're viewedin a certain way.
So, um whether or not they'veput themselves there or other

(11:51):
people have put them therethey're on a pedestal.
They feel like they have thisstandard to meet.
And now you're saying that ifthere's such a high percentage
of these pastors and leadersthat are struggling with this
behind closed doors, it seemslike there's a lot more risk for
them to step out and talk abouttheir struggles with that.
Um, we've seen, obviously mostpeople are aware of just.
It seems like every yearthere's more and more people

(12:13):
being exposed, whether or notthat's just because we have more
coverage of it, or or there'sactually a you know that's an
increasing number.
Um, it's wild and hasdetrimental effects.
Um, how do you think I mean, doyou think it's the path forward
for the lack of help in thechurch is just adding new

(12:37):
programs to the church, or is itsome kind of overhaul that
needs to happen with the waythat we do things in the church?

Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's systemic for sure, like we
could have this conversation.
Instead of pornography, itcould be about a bunch of
different topics that you knowthe church is either not talking
about, the leaders aren'twalking in it and, like you said
, with the current structure,the leaders the leaders are kind
of the gatekeepers, right, yeah, um.
So I think there's a systemicissue and I do think but I
really do think it starts withthe leaders.

(13:05):
Now, whether a leader is apastor of a local church or
whether a leader is justsomebody who has some authority
in a community.
You know, when I think aboutwhat we do at Deep Clean helping
guys quit pornography I'mdreaming about them becoming
staples in their community thatare saying, hey, I'm like
they're modeling sexualintegrity, they have nothing to
hide behind closed doors becausethey got cleaned up and they're
walking in integrity.

(13:26):
And I think until we have thathappening, we're going to just
repeat our cycles and keeprunning into these issues.
And, like you're saying, thesystem is a huge problem because
it is creating these pastorswho can't live by the standards
and when they fall short, it'snot just that they fall short
and they lose their empires, butthey leave a huge wake behind
of people who are betrayed, whoare hurt, and we have a lot of

(13:50):
people in our client group thatare church hurt, you know, and
sometimes it's over this issueor sometimes it's over other
things, but I think we need acompletely new idea of what
church looks like as well.
I think it's a huge part of thesolution.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yeah, absolutely, and so you said you know, you
believe that that it issomething that needs.
You know, leaders obviouslyneed to impact because they've
gotten influence over people,but would you say it's, it's a
balanced thing of of.
We need to help individuals ona one-on-one basis or we need to
.
I guess maybe you're you'retrying to to do both, or what is
your?
What is your main way ofactually helping such a large

(14:26):
problem?

Speaker 1 (14:26):
Yeah, yeah, it's a really good question.
So we probably need to scaleback a little bit before we
answer that question.
The typical answers in thechurch with this problem are get
an internet filter, you know.
Install covenant eyes, praymore about it, you know,
depending on where you fall inyour theology, get some
deliverance ministry, you knowit.
That's kind of been the extentof what we're providing when you

(14:48):
install an internet filter onyour device.
That's sort of the equivalentof running over a weed with a
lawnmower.
Yeah, so the weed istemporarily gone and everything
looks fine, but as long as theroots are there, that weed is
going to grow back one way orthe other.
And it's funny because if youlook at all the teachings in

(15:11):
scripture around sexual sin andlust, you know Jesus said in
Matthew 5, you've heard it saiddo not commit adultery.
I say, if you look at a womanwith lustful intent, you've
committed adultery in your heart.
So it's funny that we wouldoffer people an internet filter
as a solution when Jesus issaying actually, if you really
want to tackle this subject, yougot to get to the heart of the
matter.
So I think that's the first bigshift, that again, whether
you're in a local church,whether it's a home group,
whether it's you're outside ofthe church, the ultimate

(15:33):
solution is always going to bein the heart.
This is a heart based issue andit requires a heart based
solution.
So it's got to start there andI think that's that's sort of is
what has segued me into my workis.
For three years I was I wasstruggling for 15 years
altogether when I really decidedto quit porn.
For three years I had theinternet filters, I went to the

(15:54):
accountability groups, I hadprayer partners, I had it all
put in place and I was justtrying to basically fight the
urge every single day.
You know, like no real biblicalfreedom.
And the last 18 months of mystruggle, where I actually start
to gain traction, was allbecause I was getting to the
roots, I was getting to theheart of the matter and I was
starting to be transformed fromthe inside.

(16:16):
And then, naturally, mybehavior started to change.
So I don't, I don't need acovenant eyes, I don't wake up
thinking, man, I'm one baddecision away from fumbling
again Like I have legitimatefreedom because my heart's been
changed and I think that's thegospel, that's what the Bible is
really talking about in thisarea.
So I think, just to kind ofcontextualize, like, if you're
going to pursue freedom, thefirst thing is it's about the

(16:37):
roots, and if you take care ofthe roots then the fruit will
take care of itself.
That's the first thing.
I think the um, the other thingyou were just touching on, like
you're talking about, you knowcommunities and one-on-one and
what it looks like, the theresearch side of it, which is
also a very biblical concept,but the research.
If I could summarize all theaddiction research of the last
20 years, it would be this theopposite of addiction is not
sobriety, it's connection.

(16:58):
And so, instead of trying tomanipulate and curb your
behaviors, focus on connection,because the healthier your
connections are, the moremeaning you find in your
relationships, the more fullyour heart is, and a satisfied
heart rarely wanders.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
So you're talking about relationships in general,
so not just like a husband andwife or something like that.
So connection in allrelationships, no way beyond
that.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
Way beyond that.
Yeah, in fact, that adage camefrom.
There's this viral Ted talk.
Like 10 years ago they talkedabout Rat Park.
Have you ever heard about thisbefore?
Okay, all right.
So basically, rat Park is, youknow, they put a bunch of rats
in a cage.
There's two bottles.
One bottle is water, the otherbottle is water laced with
cocaine and, surprise, surprise,the rats all get addicted to
the cocaine.

(17:42):
So then experiment number twois they have rat park.
So this is a different kind ofterrarium.
It's got, you know, rat wheelsand tunnels and it's got cheeses
and all kinds of stuff, andthey can play with each other
and they can mate with eachother.
And you know, it's like ratparadise.
And the same bottles are stillthere the water bottle and the

(18:04):
cocaine lace bottle.
And what they found is thatwhen rats were in this
environment where they couldhave meaningful interactions
with other rats and really havea purposeful life, even though
the cocaine was there, almostnone of them touched it.
And it's basically the samething for humans.
You know, we're in the digitalage, where we're more isolated,
we're a lot lonelier than we'veever been, and pornography and

(18:26):
sexual sin is all the moreisolating because of what we
talked about, the shame thatpeople experience.
It keeps them stifled, it keepsthem hidden, and all of that
basically cuts us off from thevery thing that we need to
actually experience lastingfreedom, which is connection,
just relationships with oneanother.
And so, you know, in ourenvironment, like if you work
with us, there's always acommunal element.

(18:46):
We have an online community, wedo group coaching and then in
our higher tiers, we're going todo one-on-one coaching as well.
So we offer a little bit of allof it, but the baseline of it
is connection.
You got to start buildingrelationships because that's
what's actually going to changeyour heart.
That's the medium, the, the,the medium that it happens along
.
And, um, you know, there's tonsof practical tools and, um,

(19:11):
we're very research based onwhat we do and very biblically
based as well.
All that stuff matters, butconnections, sort of the
environment, it happens in Causethat's the way God designed us
to have our hearts changed.

Speaker 2 (19:18):
Wow, that's so cool.
Um, I can think of so manyquestions, but take me back to
to to your addiction.
So I I struggled long time withwith addiction, but more so to
like drugs and alcohol and stufflike that.
I think, and I think that justconsumed most of my addiction
like most of my energy and stuffwas still covering up a lot of

(19:40):
you know personal issues andissues with you know from
childhood and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (19:44):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
But I'm really connecting with what you're
saying, because it was like whenI, when I came to Christ, when
I gave my life to Christ, itwasn't like those addictions all
just magically went away.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
But as I learned kind of who I was and began to gain
purpose in my life, it was likethose things were less and less
important.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
Um, and, and I found so much satisfaction in now what
God was doing through me, soI'm just really making sense
what you're saying.
Um, but with your own addiction,uh, was there a point where you
lived where you thought nothingwas wrong with it, or a point
what was the point of, where youactually you know you said
there was a lot of ways that youwent and tried to get help

(20:24):
first that didn't work.
You remember the point whereyou hit, where you're like all
right, this is a major problem.
This is was there somethinghappened where you're like this
is majorly affecting my life ina negative way?

Speaker 1 (20:33):
Yeah, I can tell you the exact moment.
So I was 20 years old, I hadjust graduated with my honors
degree, so I was very high,achieving academically, skipped
a grade and went straight intouniversity.
I had my degree, I just wrappedup my thesis and I was really a
new Christian.
I grew up in church, but thiswas sort of the stage of my life
where I started to own my faithand Christian.

(20:54):
I grew up in church, but thiswas sort of the stage of my life
where I started to own my faithand I decided I was going to
commit my life to Jesus and Iknew that with that commitment,
I had to clean up my lifestyle.
I knew that means I couldn'tdrink on the weekends, or if I
was going to drink, I had to beresponsibly, had to clean up my
language and I had to stopwatching porn.
The first two were easy, youknow, not a big deal, they
didn't have a legitimatestronghold in my life, but I
probably went about three dayswithout watching porn and I

(21:16):
remember just thinking, oh, thisis usually like I can kind of
willpower myself throughanything.
You know, that was kind ofweird.
So I thought, okay, well, nowI'm really focused, now I'm
going to really, you know, goafter it.
And I went again.
I went a few days, I went aweek and I just I I kind of just
reached the end of my willpower.
And I think that's when Irealized this is a major problem

(21:37):
.
And at the time there wasn't alot of like information about
pornography, edition especially.
But any information I did findit was like you know, if you
plan your days around it, I waslike, yeah, I do that If you
can't go, you know, more than acouple of days without it.
Like I was just trying to checkoff the criteria where I
realized, wow, this is.
I had no idea the extent ofjust how deep the hooks were in
my heart.

Speaker 2 (21:58):
And so, yeah, early twenties, when it all happened,
Okay, and then from there moving, from like, okay, I'm trying
all things, cause I feel likethere's probably a lot of people
, even people listening that arein that phase of their life.
They're using the filters, therestrictions.
They're basically using theirwillpower until they, you know,
relapse and then they're in this, in this endless cycle.

(22:20):
You know you talked aboutgetting to the root.
What does that look likePractically?

Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:24):
Moving from the flesh attempts to fix something.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (22:28):
Into that phase.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, really good question.
So I would say good recoveryaddresses the roots in three
areas the eyes, the heart andthe mind.
And so when someone works withus like that's the deep clean
system, we literally just gothrough those three pillars.
The eyes are really all aboutbuilding self-awareness.
So you talked about you knowyour addiction history.
I'm sure at some point alongthe way you realized, okay, the

(22:51):
reason that I'm so drawn to youknow, drugs, alcohol, whatever
it is is it's allowing you tocope with something you know,
something that's going on,uncomfortable feelings or trauma
from your past or you knowwhatever.
So with a lot of our clients, alot of the conversation on
pornography is you know, I'm adude, I got needs, I watch porn.
You know that's the extent ofwhat they can articulate.
But sexuality is incrediblymultifaceted.

(23:15):
It's way more than just aphysical drive or a desire.
There's emotional things goingon, there's psychological things
.
So when we talk about the eyes,it's really about understanding
what's going on on an internallevel, specifically labeling
emotions and defining thoughts.
So that's kind of where westart.
It's the skill building ofunderstanding the inner life and
it's not about game like it.

(23:35):
For the guys that are watchingit's not super touchy feely.
It doesn't have to be that way.
But you have to have anunderstanding that when you're
watching pornography with somekind of regularity there's a
reason for it and until you knowthat reason you are completely
powerless to do anything aboutit.
So that's what the eyes is allabout.
It's gaining that awareness ofwhat's the reason.
What is it actually offering me?

(23:56):
Phase two, the heart.
That's really more aboutaddressing trauma, addressing
your upbringing, early sexualexperiences.
A lot of those are veryformative and they kind of shape
the sexual experiences we haveas adults.
And my own experience notreally a sexual experience, but
one of the things I realized inmy healing journey is I had an
incredible mom, but she was alittle bit like emotionally

(24:18):
distant, I would say, not asuper warm personality, not
super affectionate, you know,took care of all my kind of
primal needs as a kid, but not alot of an emotional connection
and as a result, I was chasinggirls and watching pornography.
Now that took me like threeyears to articulate, you know,
like that's.
That's the workout, that's thefruit of a lot of work.

(24:39):
But being able to label that uh, forgive my mom, release her,
uh was incredibly transformativefor me and that's the kind of
stuff.
This is where I would say likewe really see clients start to
change is when they canunderstand what's going on in
their past, how it contributedand some of those deeper
unresolved matters of the heart.
And then the third one is themind, and I would say another,

(24:59):
more Christianese term for itwould be identity.
And the basic premise there isyou cannot outbehave your
beliefs.
So as long as you, if youbelieve like I'm a pervert, I
struggle with sexual sin, I'm apervert.
As long as you believe thatyou're a pervert, you will

(25:21):
continue in some sort of sexualsin, because it's your identity.
You cannot behave outside ofthat identity that you've
developed.
So this is all about justreconstructing a real
Christ-like, biblically basedidentity that is completely
apart from your performance,apart from your behavior.
It's anchored in the mercy andthe grace of God.
But that's, this is thelaunching pad into the life of
freedom, because once you reallyunderstand your identity, then
the world's your oyster.

(25:41):
You know, you can, you can dowhatever you want, and this is
where people really start torebuild their new life.
So that's, that's kind of theprocess we'll walk somebody
through.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yeah, that's so cool as you're explaining that.
I'm thinking, you know, whenyou're talking about biblical
principles like that, you'rejust breaking it down even
further.
I'm thinking of so manyscriptures that go through my
mind, uh, about, you know,renewing the mind and
captivating thoughts and and, uh, the truth setting you free and
like all of these things youknow, go to that identification.
You're basically getting to theroot of the lie.

Speaker 1 (26:09):
Yeah, Do you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 (26:10):
Yes, exactly Um understanding the depth of the
decisions that you've made inthe past and why you maybe made
those decisions, or just atleast recognizing you know you
can't change anything about whatsomebody did to you.
I'm sure you have.
You know hundreds and hundredsof different stories from
different people of haveexperienced different things,
that are past different traumas,but they've all led to a

(26:31):
similar path.

Speaker 1 (26:32):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (26:33):
But yeah, I'm thinking of that and how a
biblical principle like this.
It can apply in many differentthings.
Definitely it's the roadmap tofreedom in a lot of different
areas.

Speaker 1 (26:45):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (26:46):
It's really cool.
So how would you say it'sdifferent?
Because I'm seeing thesimilarities when it comes to
addictions or even other thingswe struggle with as believers
especially, but how would yousay it's different in the realm
of, of sexual?

Speaker 1 (27:01):
Yeah, so compared to alcohol or drugs or that kind of
thing.
Yeah, so this is this is maybethe most fascinating part about
this very counter-cultural towhat the church will tell you.
So there was this reallypopular book like 20 years ago
called every man's Battle.
I don't know if you've everheard of it, but the basic
premise was whatever is in youthat's sexual as a man, you just
have to cut it off, justsuppress it, ignore it, stuff it

(27:26):
, stifle it, and then when youget married, your life will be
daisies and roses.
So that was sort of the generalmessaging of the book and what
everything basically hasrevealed in addiction research
and you know, we've helped 1000plus guys quit pornography now
and what we've discovered is thenature of what you consume, the
kind of content you watch whenyou watch it.

(27:47):
All of the details around yourconsumption are actually clues
into your solution.
So I mentioned the situationwith my mom right, and that was
something that was going onunderneath the surface,
something that you wouldn'texpect to be really tied into a
pornography addiction or sexualsin.
If you were to look at the dataaround the top keywords on the

(28:08):
main porn sites over the last 10years, top five is always mom
content, step mom.
There's a term called MILF, youknow it's all that kind of
mom-related content Always topfive.
It mom content, stepmom.
There's a term called milf, youknow it's all that kind of mom
related content always top five,it's always there.
And it's because my story isnot unique the, the dynamic with
the mom, the, the brokenrelationship, that disconnection
.
And what people don't realizeis when they act out sexually

(28:31):
they're actually often actingout of their trauma, out of
their brokenness, out of theirpain, and so traditionally, like
you're taught, just ignore thetemptation, suppress it, find
something better to do.
But what we actually do is wewant to get in there, we want to
understand, like, what are youwatching and why do you watch it

(28:51):
and what's interesting about itto you.
Because the better we canunderstand what you're trying to
get out of the content, themore clues it leads us into the
surface or, sorry, the thingsthat are more underneath the
surface.
And I think that's a little bitdifferent than alcohol.
Like you can't look at howsomebody is consuming alcohol or
drugs necessarily, and look atthe substance itself and say, oh
, you're addicted to alcohol,you have a problem with your mom

(29:12):
, you know, like the correlationis not there.
The same way and I think that'sa really unique part of sexual
sin and pornography addiction isthere's clues embedded into the
behavior that, if you extractthem, you know, if you have the
right guidance, you can extractthem and get very obvious
insights into your solution aswell.
I'll give you another example.
One thing that comes up a lotis fantasy.

(29:33):
So this is a very commonquestion, right?
So it's like okay, I get theporn things bad.
Then we start talking aboutmasturbation.
People always get upset when wekind of speak against
masturbation, but generally,like I haven't really found a
good argument for it, I'll putit that way Um, and then people
say, but what if I am doing itwhile I fantasize about my wife?
And, um, we basically say itdoesn't matter whether you're

(29:54):
making an object of a porn staror your wife.
Like you're fantasizing aboutit, you're, you're making an
object of it.
That's the problem.
But, um, we, I actually justdid a master class with my
clients about deconstructingyour fantasies.
And um, sorry, notdeconstructing.
Um, what's the what's the word?
um, you know, breaking it downlike analyzing about yeah yeah,

(30:14):
we had a word for it but Iforget what it is now.
But yeah, analyzing yourfantasies, and the whole premise
was, if you, if you start topay attention to what you
fantasize about sexually, itwill tell you a lot about the
unmet needs of your heart.
And, um, one thing that comesout again and again and again is
this need for control.
So a lot of guys, a lot oftheir fantasies are, you know

(30:35):
they're, they're in a more of adomineering kind of position or
it's again, it depends on thedetails of it, but there's
always this sense of control anddomination and all that kind of
stuff.
So I, one particular client inthis call, you know he was, he
was sharing some specifics andwe were, we were talking it
through and, um, and I told him,I asked him hey, when was the
last time you felt this way?
You know, this subject ofcontrol was coming up, when was

(30:56):
the last time you felt liketempted to fantasize?
And he's like oh, it was just acouple of days ago.
I was in a meeting and there'sthis guy.
He always kind of talks down tome.
I always feel like I'm smallaround him and my boss, who's
usually like really good, I havea great relationship with him.
My boss was kind of justbrushing me off so I just I felt
really small in theconversation.
So I said, okay, what else didyou feel?

(31:18):
And he's like, well, I kind offelt powerless because I was
trying to talk and they wereignoring me.
So I said, okay, so you feltpowerless, and then you kind of
contrived this fantasy where youwere in control and you had the
power.
And he's like, yes, okay, gotit.
So I said so the next time thatyou feel tempted to fantasize
especially those kinds offantasies where you're in
control, you're feeling powerfullet that just be a warning

(31:39):
light, like a light on adashboard, like, hey, dude, you
feel powerless about something,and if you can identify what you
feel powerless about and youcan get power back into that
situation, the fantasies will goaway.
You won't even be tempted tofantasize.
So again, that's just a greatexample of we'd be tempted to
just ignore it, like, oh, didyou have that fantasy?
Did?
The next time you feel tempted,just go take a cold shower?

Speaker 2 (32:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:02):
Right, like we try to kind of cut it off where I'm
kind of like dude, let's payattention to it, because I think
if we can get in there enough,we can get some really valuable
insights that can actually craftyour solution.

Speaker 2 (32:11):
Yeah, no, that's good .
I'm thinking, as you'respeaking, to my wife and I over
the past few years have done alot of like intense spiritual
warfare, deliverance and stufflike that.
But yes you'll see some peoplethat will just jump in and just
try and, like you know, castdemons out or whatever.
Yeah, but over some time werealized that sitting down with
the person for two hours, threehours, and then praying makes

(32:35):
the actual prayer process mucheasier.
Um, and what you're saying islike just so in line with even
what we've experienced, and thatis that, um, when you actually,
you know are are exposing theroots of the issue and listening
, it's almost we cause.
It's funny Cause we explainedit to people just like this.
It's like when, when I'm askingyou questions, um, and you're

(32:57):
telling me your experiences andwhat you're going through, it's
almost like a doctor listeningto symptoms.
Yeah, it would be like if youwent into the doctor's office
and they're like hey doc.
And you're like, oh, you've gotcancer.

Speaker 1 (33:06):
Right.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
And they're like I didn't, and that's what I think.
A lot of uh, you see, a lot ofthe answers are just like well,
just stop doing this or changethis as these generic slap on
band-aids.
So it's so cool.
You're almost saying that likethere's a little bit of a, a
different of of of a solution,or roadmap, if you will, uh,
based on the symptoms of theperson.
Is that what you're saying?

Speaker 1 (33:31):
100%.
Yeah, there's nuances to thesituation that actually give you
clues into your solution.
And so I love what you saidabout the deliverance thing too,
because I'm a big believer indeliverance and I think, for
what we do, when we're talkingabout, like cleaning up the
heart and transforming the heart, I really do believe all of our
clients need to go throughdeliverance.
We do deliverance at the veryend for all the reasons that you

(33:52):
just mentioned.
Yes, and an we do deliveranceat the very end for all the
reasons that you just mentioned,and an additional reason.
So Abraham Lincoln said if Ihave five hours to chop down a
tree, I'll spend the first fourhours sharpening the axe.
And so I really believe thatthe scripture suggests that if
you're going to do casting outdemons, you've got to make sure
the person's heart is in orderthat it can actually steward the
deliverance, Because I knowlots of stories.

(34:17):
In fact, we've had lots ofclients who had the deliverance
minister pray for them.
They got set free and then 30days later they're struggling
again.
And it's not because thatperson didn't have an anointing
that if that person didn't havean anointing, they would have
never had deliverance in thefirst place.
The issue was the heart.
There wasn't the maturity toactually steward the
breakthrough.
You know, my pastor says abreakthrough without a
follow-through is a momentwithout momentum.
And I think it's the same thing.

(34:38):
We get so excited to deliverpeople and give that
breakthrough moment, but wedon't have any follow-through,
we don't have anything thatactually gives them longevity in
their deliverance.
So we do deliverance at thevery end because we figure by
the time you've been with us forabout four months, you've gone
through our three pillars.
You know the eyes, the heart,the mind.
There's a lot of maturity,there's a lot of stability and
then we can just cast it out.
It's a way easier, like yousaid, Um, and then we know that

(35:03):
the chances of it lastinglong-term are way, way higher.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
Yeah, so you said, a breakthrough without a
follow-through is a momentwithout momentum.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
Yeah, okay, I just wanted to say that, yeah, yeah,
that's always stuck with me, youknow.
Yeah, I think it kind of getsacross.

Speaker 2 (35:14):
And you're so right.
Yeah, you, you want to capturethat momentum because that is
something that you run into alot, even with um ministry and
deliverance ministry and stufflike that People coming back for
the same issues, same issuesand you realize after a while
you're like maybe you prayedwith someone for hours and you
know, in in authority, got ridof that thing.
But, um, cause, a lot of peoplewould give us trouble when we

(35:35):
talk about different deliverancetactics and the way that we do
things.
They're like, well, you don'tneed to do that, you just cast
the thing out in Jesus name andand we would actually, um, you
know, pinpoint by either askingthe, the Holy spirit, for
discernment of what we'redealing with, or or sometimes,
uh, the authority, where the,the demon, actually speaks out
or calls out you know what it'soperating in and its name, if

(35:58):
you will, but usually his nameis just its function and I tell
people I'm like the benefit ofthat is if the person actually
knows what they're dealing withand how the enemy is attacking
them then, they can better beprepared to actually walk that
freedom out and fight it thenthey can better be prepared to
actually walk that freedom outand fight it.
So going back to knowing thetruth, and the truth will set

(36:20):
you free.
It's just interesting how Jesusyou know prior to Jesus.
It's funny you read the OldTestament.
You just never see, obviously,a lot in the realm of
deliverance as you saw, withJesus walking around as you do
in the Old Testament.

Speaker 1 (36:36):
And.

Speaker 2 (36:36):
Jesus is walking around, literally exposing all
of the devil's tactics,everything, and it's just all
out there.
And that was the one ministrythat they were like where does
this authority come from?
We've never seen a teachinglike this.
And it's because the enemy hadremained hidden, and that's what
I'm getting to is like his maintactic is to remain hidden, to
remain quiet, to normalize it tomake you think that a lot of

(36:58):
the things spiritually going onwith you are part of your
personality or that's just whoyou are.
And I'm sure you probably dealwith a lot of mindsets like that
, with people that just justthink they think they're stuck
because they think that's it's,it's part of who they are.

Speaker 1 (37:10):
Yeah, yeah, and it's become so familiar that it's
they don't.
They don't know life apart fromit.
I mean, we, we had a client.
He was 70 years old.
He, in his this is his words Ihad an affair every single
opportunity that I got, for, youknow, five decades, he'd been
married 50 years addicted topornography, addicted to sex,

(37:32):
and he actually came with.
He's a great example of somebodywho, when he got, finally got
caught.
You know, he's 68 years old andfrom the moment he got caught
he stopped.
So he stopped porn cold turkey.
He stopped having sex andhaving affairs and all that kind
of stuff, cold turkey.
And two years into his sobrietyjourney, he comes to us and
he's like, I haven't watched intwo years but I'm miserable, I'm

(37:54):
freaking miserable, like I hatemy life.
I almost wish I was addicted tosex again because, like, I have
nothing in my life.
So a great example of whathappens when you chase sobriety
instead of actual freedom of theheart.
That's good.
And as he um, as he started towork with us, like, as he's
starting to go through thisprocess.
I'm forgetting what youmentioned now, but I'm gonna
finish the story.
Hopefully it'll tie back in um,but you know, as he's starting
to go through this process.

(38:15):
I'm forgetting what youmentioned now, but I'm going to
finish the story.
Hopefully it'll tie back in, um, but you know, as he's starting
to go, he's just.
He was such a good example ofsomebody who, at 70 years old
he's still turning his lifecompletely around and it's, it's
not, it's not too late foranybody, like you know.
I think people, people arelistening.
This is where I was going to gowith this.
People are probably going tolisten and watch this and say,
yeah, but you don't know whatI've done, you don't know how
long I've struggled.
I mean this guy, this guy didnot know a life, apart from any

(38:39):
kind of addiction, because ithad started so young and he was
now in his latter years and itwas so familiar and he got free.
He got, he got legitimatefreedom.
This guy, by the end of theprogram we talked about
self-awareness, right, that'sour first pillar.
So learning to label emotions,articulate thoughts, all that
kind of stuff.
He was trying to have likevulnerable conversations with

(38:59):
his mother-in-law.
That was like the extent thathe had embraced it too.
You know, he was so unashamedabout his life and his heart and
his struggle, but also hisvictory and his success, and so
I think it's one of the biggestlies If the enemy can't keep you
hidden, he'll just keep youstuck.
You know he'll keep you stuck,convinced like no, this is your

(39:19):
thorn in the flesh, this is thething that you're just going to
struggle with.
No, everybody else can get free, but you can't.
And it's a lie straight fromthe pit of hell, because whether
you're 17 years old or you're70, like Jesus can set you free,
you can change your heart, andin less time than you think.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
That's so amazing and that's one thing that I watched
my wife go through as well, inwatching her share her testimony
, also ministering to otherwomen and us ministering
together is you.
You can watch people and seehow free they are from their
past and how they talk about it.
Yeah, um, you almost feel likeI almost feel detached in a way
from it, not in a weird way likeit's stuffed, but in a way like

(39:59):
that's it's so far gone for methat you can almost speak, speak
about it without even like youknow anything and people are
like Whoa, like how can you talkabout what you've gone through
like that, with such clarity andsuch freedom?
And it's because it's not who Iam anymore.
Yeah, it's like a differentperson.

(40:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:20):
And that's the whole point of the roots-based
approach.
If you do it right, that shouldbe.
The byproduct is you look atpictures of your past, you think
about, you hear the storiesfrom back in the day and they
just feel like that.
They feel like stories fromback in the day.
You know they're.
They're so far removed and Ithink a lot of the addiction

(40:40):
models that even exist are notlike that.
You know, I I interviewed on aplatform uh, he's one of the
most respected people in the sexaddiction space and he was
reading my inner, uh, my, mybiography for the interview and
the biographies.
You know, cynthia Sam is arecovered porn addict and he
said, oh, he said I actuallycan't, I can't read that, I
don't agree with that.
And I said, oh, um, like whatdo you mean?
And he said, well, I don'tbelieve it's possible to be
recovered.
I believe that once you're inrecovery, you're always in

(41:03):
recovery.
You always have to.
You know, like there's there'sno permanence.
And I, you know I mean I wasrespectful the world's leaders
in this subject and he doesn'tbelieve that you could actually
be completely set free from it.
He believes like you're alwayskind of one step removed.
So I think this is where, likeeven the addiction models that
were actually originally like AAand 12 step.

(41:25):
Those are from.
Those came from the Bible.
Those are people that wereBible believing that came up
with it.
I'd like to see us kind of getback to that, because to me
that's that's legitimate freedomis yeah, you don't recognize.
You have this lingering likeI've just expanded my jail cell,
so now I've got more you know,a little bit more room to walk
around out of that jail cell andsay goodbye to it.
That's so good yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
One thing, a question that popped up in my mind too,
and I don't know if you have ananswer for this or not, but it
seems like you deal a lot withrecovery.
So people that are alreadyexperiencing that you know
addiction and trying to breakfree from it Do you have any
advice for like parents like me,or parents out there that have
young children and they'relooking to like?
Hey, I want to be proactive.

Speaker 1 (42:07):
Do you know what I'm saying and I know what?

Speaker 2 (42:08):
the world brings and social media and all that stuff.
What are some ways that that wecould influence, you know, our
children and young people to beable to successfully walk
through that without fallinginto it?

Speaker 1 (42:19):
Yeah, really good question, very important.
Um, I'd say there's a couple ofthings.
So number one is the sooner youstart talking to your kids
about not pornographyspecifically, but sex in general
, the better.
Okay, um, a lot of parents waittoo long, or, like in my case,
I just grew up in a home wherewe didn't talk about it, so
pornography was sex ed for me.
You know, I didn't get thebirds and the bees talk.

(42:40):
We had a little bit of aconversation at school and like
one of our health classes, butthere wasn't really much
happening.
But statistically, everythingsuggests that the best education
always happens in the home.
Don't let the school system doit, don't let their peers, your
kids' peers, do it.
You be the people who set thestage.
And there's the principle offirst mention.
I don't know if you've everheard of this, but the principle

(43:02):
of first mention is you know,if you're the first person to
talk about a subject, your kidwill compare everything else
that they hear on that subjectto what they first heard.
So you have the power in yourhands to be that voice,
especially if your kids areyoung.
Now, if your kids are older andmaybe you're hearing that,
you're like oh, you know it's alittle bit too late, or maybe
it's like I know my kidswatching porn and I don't know
what to do about it.
The best thing you can do isactually to share about your own

(43:22):
experiences.
You know, a lot of times wethink, man, if I taught
Generally, if they hear you knowyour dad struggled with this,
here's how it affected my life,here's how I got clean, here's

(43:46):
how my life is better, here'swhy I was able to raise you the
way I raised you, because I quitporn.
If they can hear that fullstory, comprehensively, that's
actually what they need to hear.
Number one it takes thepressure off.
Instead of you presenting thisfacade like I've never struggled
and now they feel like mananytime I fall short, like my
dad's got it all figured out,what's wrong with me.
It's going to actuallyfacilitate shame.
If you can tell about yourshortcomings and you know how
you work through them andeverything else, that's going to

(44:08):
preach a lot louder and it'sactually way more likely to
steer them clear of making thatmistake themselves and to steer
them clear of making thatmistake themselves and tied into
.
that is the third thing I wouldsay and this is especially for
fathers, but it's true ofmothers as well is you have to
be the role model, like if youare a father and you're
struggling with porn addiction,you don't want your kids to
struggle.
Go and figure it out foryourself.
Carve that path, be the personwho charts a new course for your

(44:31):
family, and then let your kidsfollow in your trajectory.
Otherwise, all you can do issend them off and hope that they
go figure it out for themselves.
But you know, if the fathergets free, I'm telling you like
it's a lot easier for the kidsto follow in his footsteps.

Speaker 2 (44:43):
No, that makes total sense.
Um, the last thing that thatkind of popped into my mind.
I'm trying to hit this fromevery angle too, and then and
and suck all your advice andwisdom for my own family as well
too.
Um, because obviously both mywife wife and I have a history
of um just sexual sin and stufflike that in our past.
You know before Christ and allthat.
And sometimes you can see, eveneven though you you break free

(45:07):
from that addiction, whatever itcan affect, it can still affect
those relationships early onand intimacy between married
couples and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (45:16):
It's a big one yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
How do you, how do you navigate, is I'm trying to
figure out.
When you guys help people, isit kind of like the whole scope
or like how do you guys helppeople beyond recovery, if that
makes definitely very goodquestion.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
So there's an emerging field in psychology
called betrayal trauma.
I don't know if you've everheard of that yes, yeah, uh,
recently.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
I didn't know about it till like a couple months ago
oh okay, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:41):
So we generally recommend for wives or spouses
of our clients that they gothrough some betrayal trauma
therapy or help, becausetypically what the wife
experiences is betrayal trauma.
You know it's traumatic to findout that your husband's had
this problem and you can't helpbut feel betrayed.
You know like he hid somethingfrom you, he's choosing somebody
instead of you.

(46:01):
You know all of that.
So I think that part is superimportant.
The one thing I will say thatseparates what we do that's
quite different from a lot ofother programs is we have a very
strong emphasis on skillbuilding.
So one of the things we didwhen we designed our curriculum
is we we tried to think of whatcan we teach our clients to do?
That will not just help themget free, but it will also serve
them afterwards to continue tostay free.

(46:24):
So when we talk about buildingself-awareness as an example,
that's a skill set that's veryimportant early on in recovery
just to kind of get an idea ofwhat's going on.
But on the other side of it,it's just as valuable, and we
find that a lot of the guys thatare willing to build
self-awareness address thematters of the heart, do the
three pillars, like we talkedabout.
Usually they start to show upbetter and differently in their

(46:45):
marriages and so there's alonger term play.
You can actually quit porn alot faster than you can rebuild
a marriage and repair that trust.
That part just takes longer.
And the biggest thing, the bestthing you can offer your
marriage is consistency.
The wife just she needs theconsistency to know that you're
actually a safe person.
And it's not just consistencyas in you have to be perfect and

(47:06):
never watch again, althoughthat's definitely the standard
to aim towards but it does meanthat along the way there's a
consistency and transparency,just being honest about what's
going on, letting her in.
The more she feels like she'slet in, the better chance your
marriage has.
So our focus is always on theguy helping him get clean of
pornography.
We highly the guy helping himget get clean of pornography.

(47:28):
We highly encourage the spouseto do, you know, her work and to
make sure she's getting thesupport she needs because, um,
otherwise what happens veryoften is the guy gets clean.
He's like I'm a, I'm a newperson, I feel different, and
she still doesn't trust him.
Now, in some ways that'stotally merited because you know
he's been, you know, watchingporn for years or decades or
whatever it is, but at somepoint that has to shift and that
it won't shift if the wifedoesn't do her own work and you

(47:49):
know, work through the pain andthe hurt that it's caused.
So those are the two big thingsthat we really recommend for
marriage to kind of get on trackand get back into place.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
That's amazing.
Um, no, everything you'resaying is so thorough.
I'm just thinking is yeah, just, it's so cool to see, to see
somebody that, um is looking atthe whole scope of everything
and realizing how one thingaffects another and making sure
that we're not just pluckingsomething out but not actually,
you know, replacing it.
But yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
And on the other side of it it's like, yeah, you know
, if you, if you show up withporn addiction, multiple areas
of your life are probablyaffected.
You know sexual intimacy withyour spouse and maybe the way
you're showing up for your kids,like I mentioned, productivity
at work and you know jobs andall that kind of stuff.
But the really cool thing iswhen you quit pornography,
especially if you have a rootsbased approach like what we've
been talking about, all of thoseareas get positively impacted,

(48:42):
right, you start to show updifferently for your kids.
You start to show up for yourspouse.
You know, I had a clientmessage me this week and he said
man, my kids, my kids just saidto me this week.
They said, daddy, you, youdon't get angry as much anymore,
you're so much nicer to us.
Like what's changed, you know?
And he, like he started cryingcause he's yeah, I think he's
two months in with us.
Um, but he's doing the work youknow.
He's building on self-awareness, he's become a lot more tender,

(49:04):
he's working through some majortrauma he's been through and
his kids are starting to see thedifference right, so they feel
more comfortable around him,they feel safer.
His kids are five and three.
So for a majority of what'sleft of their childhood they're
going to get a completelydifferent dad.
And that's the beauty of ahearts-based approach is
everything in your world changes.
We have this little taglinelike if you change the man, you
change the world, and you knowthat's because that guy, he's a

(49:27):
business leader, he's respectedin his community, he's very
involved in his church.
All of those facets of societybecome better when he gets
better and that's why it's sucha big deal to really get after
the roots.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
That's so cool.
You know I understand theconcept of like affecting people
that are in higher up positionsand and because they have a lot
of people under their influenceand stuff, but there's
something special about umimpacting people one-on-one with
something that is going to betransformative for everybody

(49:58):
around them.
And I think you know Jesusteaches that approach when he
talks about the uh 30, 60hundred fold fruit you know,
it's that that good soil likeyou're planting seed and good
soil, and it's going to impacteveryone around them.
That's kind of the approach thatwe've taken on on discipleship
as well.

Speaker 1 (50:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
Instead of over-focusing or
over-emphasizing on bigevangelistic meetings and
gatherings and stuff like that?
Yeah, like if we can go reallydeep with a small amount of
people.
And then those people are soimpacted and so affected that
they become fruitful for thenext generation, like that's
when multiplication picks upspeed.
So I'm seeing that's where mybrain is correlating with, with

(50:37):
what you're doing, even thoughit seems like it's just one
person at a time.
One person at a time, itimpacts everybody in that
person's world.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that Cause I I went
through this wrestle when Istarted this business.
I started six years ago.
I stopped pastoring three yearsago and you know God called me
to do this full time and thefirst year I really missed
pastoring because I missed, youknow, getting in there with
people really knowing what'sgoing on day to day.
I missed the preaching.
You know I missed so much of it.

(51:03):
But what I really missed themost was the discipleship.
Like I love teaching peopleabout the foundations of the
Bible and how to hear God'svoice and you know I enjoyed it
so much and I was kind offeeling like a little bit like
down about it.
The one day and I was online, Iwas just scrolling through our
community platform and you knowI just saw the conversations

(51:25):
that were happening between theguys and some of them were
referencing like some podcastcontent I had done on my show
and you know there's a bunch ofstuff and I felt like the Holy
Spirit just whispered to me likeSathya, in case you didn't
realize, like the mandate isstill the same.
That's right, you know what Imean.
Like I mean it was the samebefore I got called to be a
pastor like go and disciple forall of us.
But he was like Sathya, likeyou're, you're still discipling
people.
You know, it just looksdifferent, it's a bit more

(51:47):
focused.
But I love that you use thatword, cause I feel so passionate
about that, like being in therewith people, getting in the
weeds and discipling themthrough it, like showing them
what the Bible says about it,pointing them back to Jesus and
at the same time, giving thatcommunal support while they do
it.
I think that's the way it'ssupposed to be and I think
that's why you know this kind of.
Going back now to our earlierconversation, but I think that

(52:09):
is why the church struggles somuch with areas like this and
helping people is because thechurch doesn't disciple right.
The church kind of just gathersand scatters.
We don't really have a goodmodel, like once your church is
bigger than 50, 60 people, likediscipleship just kind of gets
thrown out, right, and so Ithink I think that's where this
is such a big deal, becausetruth, truthfully, I don't know

(52:30):
how necessary I would be ifpeople were just getting
discipled properly day to day,from day one.
I'm sure we would still benecessary, but maybe not to the
same extent, cause I thinkreally healthy discipleship
actually does transform theheart.
You know like we're talkingabout.
It takes, it takes care of alot of those matters and it
gives you the support you needwhen you're going through those
issues.

Speaker 2 (52:46):
Yeah, no, that's really good.
I had, we did.
I did a podcast with a guynamed Neil Cole.
He's an author of a book calledorganic church.
I've read his stuff for for awhile now.
So it was awesome to have himon here and um had a revelation
when I was talking with him.
I kept saying you know, pastors, pastors, pastors, and.
And he's like you realize thatmost pastors in the pulpit are
actually, they're teachers,they're not actually pastors.

(53:07):
It's just a.
It's a.
It's the title of the positionof the person in leadership that
we give to them, Because mostof our, most of our church
structure is built aroundteaching.
That's why we have Bible schooland Bible classes, and programs
and stuff like that and the mainfocus is on a Sunday sermon,
which which teaches.
So it's it's very appropriateto have teaching, but we're so

(53:28):
focused on just the teachingaspect.
The the actual shepherdingdoesn't happen, especially when
you have church congregationthat's, like you said, above 50,
60 members or something likethat.
It's just impossible.
And so I think a lot of trueshepherds, a lot of true pastors
, um, if they left that teachingposition and got more involved
in the one-on-one discipleshipand stuff like that, would be

(53:49):
more fulfilled.
And also, you know therevelation that I had in the
past years was that you canabsolutely do all those things
and use your gifting Like itwould feel weird saying, well,
how do you pastor if you don'thave a church or whatever, but
shepherding is so much more thanstanding behind a pulpit and
teaching a sermon.
Like it's really, reallygetting involved in people's

(54:09):
lives and shepherding as well,and that can take place in a
coffee shop and a house and a inthe workplace, you know
wherever.
So it's cool for you to see thatas well, to see like and the.
Lord, to show you like themandate is still the same.

Speaker 1 (54:20):
Like you, go and make disciples you serve and love
people you preach the gospel,you can.
You can do all of that stuff,regardless of the structure.
Yeah, it's so true.
And you know, I think you knowwhen I dream about our, our
clients, becoming like leadersin their communities.
And you know, whatever it is, Ithink the the thing that excites
me the most these daysespecially I'm I'm a new father,
you know, I have a little kidand another one on the way is,

(54:43):
um, the way that guys areshowing up at home, like I think
it's always.
At the end of the day, I thinkthe greatest transformation
always happens in the home,whether the guy is a business of
you know with 200 employees orwhatever.
If he's got two kids and thosekids are getting raised by a dad
who's present, who's walking inintegrity, he's not a hypocrite
behind closed doors, he treatshis, their mom better because
he's clean and he's notobjectifying women anymore, Like

(55:04):
that's what this is really allabout, and I think if, if the
homes continue to be changed,then the world gets better as
well.

Speaker 2 (55:10):
That's beautiful, I think.
Uh, you know, I was going toask you to almost define for me,
like what you see, biblicalmasculinity as kind of defined
it.
Iterate there in a little bit,but just to preface that, like
when I grew up, you know, my dadwas an alcoholic.
He, uh, his brothers, wouldcome over to watch sports games.
They would, you know, cuss andsmoke and drink and all that
stuff.
And so I'm, I'm watching as akid, you know, super jealous.

(55:33):
I can't stay up late and hangout with dad and watch the
hockey game or the football gameor whatever, and um, and and
then I would see him get infights and stuff like that.
And that's what I thoughtmasculinity was, that's what I
thought a man was, and so Ispent so many years trying that
and realizing and it failing uh,before I finally started to
stumble and figure out what itwas to be, uh, you know, a godly

(55:55):
man, or really a man in general, at that point.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
Yeah, you know, I would say the the more masculine
you are, the less distancethere is between your
convictions and your lifestyle.
I think that's what realmasculinity is at the end of the
day.
You know it's, I know, I knowwhat's true and I'm making every
effort in my life to live by it.
You know, and there's there'ssome foundational elements, but

(56:22):
I, you know, masculinityobviously has been a huge
subject the last couple of years, especially, right, and I mean
I'm from Canada, so you can onlyimagine the kind of
conversations we're having upthere.
It's like so liberal in Toronto, right, yeah, but I, I think
for me, this has been like whereI've landed, at least for now.
I could tell you, like you know,men lead, and that's certainly
biblical, you know, and men arestrong, whether it's, you know,
physically or mentally orwhatever.
I think there's qualities andthere's attributes.

(56:42):
But the men that I respect themost, whether we're talking
about the men of the Bible, themen that I have in my own life,
are the people who they have aconviction and they live by it,
and I think it's so simple butit's so lost in our society,
especially in, like, you and Iare content creators and one of
the biggest temptations ofcontent creators is to produce

(57:02):
content that's not real right.
It's to say something.
I can project a message and Ican have the facade on camera
like it looks a certain way, butbehind closed doors could be a
completely different story.
That's the biggest danger ofmedia right and I think a real
man in today's day and age, hejust lives by what he believes,
he lives by his convictions, atwhatever the cost might be, and

(57:24):
I can't think of something moremanly than that.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
Yeah, no, I agree, and I think that encompasses
what you said about being aleader and being strong and
stuff like that.
You know, doing what you sayyou're going to do, following
your convictions, living by thatis a way to lead you know
leading a lot of peoplemisunderstand as being over
somebody or having someone underyour control, but it's more
leadership by.
I'm going to be the one that'sgoing to go first.
I'm going to set the standard.
I'm going to pave the way forothers.

(57:48):
And that's where I see strengthin leadership, and so that's
beautiful man.

Speaker 1 (57:52):
Oh man, this has been awesome.
Yeah, thanks so much for havingme.
Yeah, thanks so much for comingon.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
So two things.
First thing, there's somebodyout there watching and they're
in the middle of this struggle,right, this battle, but they're
they're.
They're teetering back andforth on whether or not they can
control it, or whether or notit's an issue or not, and but
they know it's negativelyaffecting their lives.
Like, what do you say to thatthat guy?

Speaker 1 (58:17):
Yeah, I think, um, you have to just decide, like,
how far you're willing to godown that road before you make a
change.
Yeah, yeah, you know I have alot of husbands that have come
to me that are like you know, doI really have to tell my wife?
And I always say, well, no, youdon't.
You know, you have two optionsyou can confess or you can get
caught.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
It's up to you.

Speaker 1 (58:35):
It only ends one way right, one way or the other,
rather.
So you have to make the choice.
So I think for people that areon that journey like I can tell
you all the clients that we'veworked with they were in your
position and they never thoughtthey would get into the position
where they needed to be one ofmy clients.
So it's a slippery slope andit's more slippery than people
realize.
So I say, nip things in the budas soon as you can.
100%.

(58:56):
If people are looking for helpand they even want to learn more
about us, they can get a freecopy of my book.
If they just follow me onInstagram and DM me me book,
I'll send over a free copy.
Okay, that explains my wholesystem that I was kind of
outlining today in way moredepth, and that's a great way
for people to get started a bitmore um.
So those would be some of thestarting points awesome.

Speaker 2 (59:13):
Well, I appreciate, appreciate you being on today
hanging out.
I'll get all your uh links inthe, in the, in the description
and all that stuff so people canconnect with you perfect, that
was going to be the second thingI asked, so yeah, yeah um, yeah
, so thanks so much for yourtime.
I've learned a wealth ofknowledge today and I'm excited
because I've I've honestly afterI'll probably listen to this
through again and and because Ifeel more equipped to even help

(59:34):
people and at least point peoplein a nice direction.
That's what's beautiful abouthaving people that almost
specialize in a way.
Right, you take your, yourstruggles, you overcome them and
then you're you're, you'realmost like like an expert in
that field of of helping peopleto get free, and then we can
connect.
I think that's how the body ofChrist can use their giftings.
Like I'm like oh, I know a guythat can help you with this, or
I know a girl that can help youwith this, it's just so cool, Uh

(59:55):
, just to, just to haveconnections with that.

Speaker 1 (59:57):
So oh, thanks man, Thanks for having me.
This was.