October 15, 2024 • 45 mins
Is the modern church really following Christ's teachings, or are we catering to a consumer-driven culture?
In this episode, we question the megachurch model, its focus on entertainment, and whether it's staying true to scripture. We’ll talk about why it’s so important for churches to reassess their traditions and get back to the heart of the Gospel.
We also dive into the parable of the seed in Mark 4, exploring how true discipleship goes beyond surface-level commitments—it requires daily surrender, like a marriage built on trust and love. Using real-life examples from Luke 9, we’ll unpack the shortcomings of consumer-driven Christianity and the radical call to follow Jesus above all else.
Lastly, we’ll shift focus to the importance of multi-generational impact and spiritual reproduction over just growing numbers. Reflecting on John 15 and 1 Corinthians 2, we highlight the value of simplicity in discipleship and how it can lead to lasting, exponential growth that glorifies God. Tune in as we peel back the layers of religious tradition and uncover the true mission of the church.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
But I love how it says pick up your cross daily.
I think a lot of people thinkthat following Jesus is just a
one-time repentance moment or aone-time situation, and then
you're good to go forever.
That's deception.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
He's waiting for the church to wake up and say I'm
done with building my ownkingdom and trying to invite you
into my little project.
Did Jesus build something andthen say, god, would you come
help me with this?
Or did he say I only do what Isee my father do?
That's right, yeah, it just hitme when you were saying that I
was picturing like this anemicmalnutrition, jesus that we
present and it hit me, that'sthe reason why we have to
(00:35):
supplement.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Let's say there's a pastor listening right now.
That's like oh crap, I'm aconsumer church and I want to do
something different.
Like what would they do?
Welcome to the ReChurch podcast.
If you're tired of business asusual Christianity and ready to
live more like Jesus, you havefound yourself in the right
place.
I'm your host, Justin Knoop.
I'm here again with my lovelywife, Brooke.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Knoop, hello, hello, hello.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Doing all right today , Brooke.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
I am.
We started homeschool today.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Awesome.
So that?
How's that going?
Speaker 1 (01:12):
It was really good.
It's our 12th year.
Yeah, wow 12 years ofhomeschooling.
We've obviously moved to Texas.
We've mentioned that a coupleof times.
They have a lot better laws forhomeschooling so it's a little
bit more relaxed, not as muchpressure, so that has been
really nice.
But I'm also homeschooling ourfive-year-old, which throws
(01:34):
things a little bit different,but it was really good.
So I'm thankful for that.
But my brain is still thinkingabout the gold rush in Alaska
right now.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
All the interesting stuff you get to learn it at
homeschooling.
I get it Well.
We had a really interestingconversation last week on our
second episode.
This is now our third episodeof the Reacher's podcast, so
it's going really well.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
but I'm realizing quickly, like we've got a lot to
talk about, a lot to cover andsometimes it's just, it's tough
to cover everything in oneepisode.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Um, tell me a little bit about what we, what we
discussed last week.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah.
So I think last week we weretalking about like consumerism
of the church and like I lovethe way you said it like
business as usual.
You know, the church neverpauses to think about like why
maybe isn't it working?
So instead they just add moreprograms, more things and keep
going with business as usualinstead of rethinking things.
So we discussed that aboutconsumerism and the reason why
(02:32):
we're seeing the production ofconsumerism Christianity growing
is because the church isattracting consumers and not
disciples, not truly laid-downlovers who are taught deny
yourself, pick up your cross andfollow Jesus.
So instead the church I're,we're the church, I think the
mega church model, or evenchurches in general they don't
realize what they're doing byputting in arcades and having
(02:54):
these massive conferences thatcost thousands of dollars, with
all the lights, cameras andactions and, you know, having
the best lighting and all thethings and the most eloquent
speakers.
I don't think they intentionallyare meaning to produce
consumers, but they are becausethey're attracting people that
just want to be like, just toconsume.
You know the cool thing.
So I think that's why we'reproducing that and so we
(03:15):
discussed that last week justthe producing of consumer
Christianity and not reallyseeing the fruit of the New
Testament church in our churchesthese days.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
So I think now we need to have a solution.
What do we do?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Absolutely so.
We don't want to seem likewe're just constantly
deconstructing or being critical, even though it's needed to
like yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
We need to challenge it.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
It is For sure we need to make people think.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
That's why the word re-church like re-think church,
you know, is the whole point ofthis.
Because I think we realized asa couple and with our travels
and experience that like churchin the megachurch setting is not
technically what Christ hascalled us to do.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah, and that's the big thing.
Again.
We mentioned this over and over.
Traditions are not bad in andof themselves.
Structures are not bad in and ofthemselves Like we use them all
the time their structure withinthe family, within our home,
with when we eat dinner, likehow we function as a family.
It's not all bad, but we dohave to stop every now and then
to pause to rethink everythingthat we're implementing in our
(04:17):
lives and whether or not it isproducing the fruit of the goal
that we want or it's not.
And when it comes to the waythat we function in the church,
really looking back biblicallyand saying you know, is this
what scripture teaches us to do?
Is this what Jesus set anexample for?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
us to do.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
And I know we're diving head, you know, straight
in.
But this, you know, one thingcame to my mind when we were
talking, because the main thingI want to talk, I want to talk
about today, is what you justsaid earlier.
You're talking about anattractional model of church.
So we want to talk about thedifference between attractional
and incarnational church.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Well, explain, what does that mean?
Incarnational church?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yeah, so we'll start with attractional.
It's kind of obvious, but notso.
Basically, I think it startswith a question that we ask, so
a question that the church atlarge is asking itself when we
think about how are we going toreach culture, how are we going
to reach this generation?
And it starts off with usbelieving that the answer is
drawing them in out of the worldattracting them into the church
(05:17):
, and when I use that word, Iuse that term loosely, because
usually it means attracting themto the building right To the
Sunday meeting.
Okay, so we're asking thequestion, and Neil Cole puts
this best in his book Church 3.0, which is an amazing book.
He says we're asking thequestion how do we better
attract the culture to us?
Right, and that's when we startto implement these things in
(05:40):
our meetings and our gatheringsthat invite people into this
consumerism.
So we're thinking what attractsthe culture?
Let's put that in our churchgatherings and hopefully the
lost people will wander in.
That's right, because if youthink about it, it's pretty
obvious that most of the worldis not.
They're not just going to walkby a church building on a Sunday
and be like you know what?
I think I'll stop in and seewhat's going on, right,
(06:02):
completely outside, you know.
And so the really there's.
There's attractional, there's adefinition of the attractional
where we're figuring out waysthat we can attract people into
our church meetings.
Again, nothing wrong with thatin general.
Is it the best way?
We'll talk about that in asecond.
Number two versus incarnational.
What do I mean by incarnation?
What did Jesus do as theincarnate God into the world?
(06:22):
Right?
That's a good question.
He had a message to bring to us, and what did he do?
He became a human being and hemet us in our culture, in our
context, and he brought thatgood news into our situation.
Why?
Because I think that's the bestway to reach people is to go
into their world and bring thatmessage into their world and
(06:43):
meet them where they're at.
That's what Jesus set to us asan example.
So that's where it's like.
Okay, within discipleship,within the movement of
Christianity.
Might that be a better model,you know, for us to use?
And I think very much so.
That's right.
One scripture that I want tobring up that we can discuss
further as well, as in Luke, andit directly confronts this idea
(07:04):
of this consumer-styleChristianity where we're going
in trying to fit everythingaround our needs right In Luke,
chapter 9, this is right beforethe transfiguration.
I believe this is in Luke.
This is where Jesus feeds the5,000.
So he is meeting the crowdsright In the context.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
He's meeting the crowds, he's meeting needs.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
He was in their midst and his disciples are asking
him or actually they're meetingwith him after that and he asked
them a question.
He says you know who do peoplesay that I am?
And they start giving him youknow, elijah, all these
different things.
And then that's where Petersays you know you are the Christ
.
Right, peter says you know youare the Christ and he mentions
that right after that.
He mentions this just givingyou the context for that
(07:45):
scripture.
He says in Luke 9, 23,.
And he said to all if anyonewould come after me, let him
deny himself and take up hiscross daily and follow me.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
And I love what it says If anyone come after me,
you have to seek him.
He's already revealed himselfto the world.
He's already died for the sinsof the world.
He's done his part.
The ball's now in our court andwe have to respond to the
message that he gave us 2,000years ago when he died for us,
(08:19):
and respond to him and come tohim.
It's our turn to respond toJesus's message.
He's done.
He's done his part, so now werespond to him and then sanct
Him.
It's our turn to respond toJesus's message.
He's done.
He's done His part, so now werespond to Him and then
sanctification takes place inour life.
But I love how it says pick upyour cross daily and follow Him.
I think a lot of people thinkthat following Jesus is just a
one-time repentance moment or aone-time situation and then
(08:40):
you're good to go forever.
But that's deception.
I think it's actually alifestyle of repentance and
constantly denial of self.
And I am more eager to denymyself now in my relationship
with the Lord, 13 years in, thanI was in the very beginning,
because I just know Him more andmy love for Him has grown, just
(09:01):
like our relationship, like anymarriage you have love and you
have some infatuation, someattraction in the beginning.
But, like, I love you more nowthan I did when I first met you,
that's how marriage should beright.
That's how our relationshipwith Jesus is too.
So I trust you more now.
I followed you to Texas andaround the world.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, and I followed Jesus.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, right, and you're following Jesus.
So we're following Jesustogether and so I trust your
wisdom and discernment.
Because I've watched how youlive the same with being in
relationship with Christ,because I've been in
relationship with her so long,I'm more quickly to want to deny
myself of things because I knowHis ways are better.
But most people never get tothat point because they're never
actually taught to denythemselves point, because
(09:43):
they're never actually taught todeny themselves, so they never
really get into rightrelationship with him where
they're actually pursuing himjust for him and not what they
can gain.
So that makes a big difference.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, I agree, and I think it goes back to what we're
showing people from thebeginning.
I think that's why it's soimportant that first
introduction when sharing thegospel when inviting people to a
situation, meeting them wherethey're at, no matter what comes
out of our mouth.
They're people to a situationmeeting them there where they're
at, no matter what comes out ofour mouth.
They're going to be looking atour actions.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
And so if we're saying, hey, this is the gospel,
but the way that we share thegospel, the context that we
share the gospel typicallysounds like this hey, you know
Jesus loves you.
You know you're amazing.
You know Jesus loves you.
Um, you know you're amazing.
Like, come to my, my churchservice, and you get there and
we just like, lavish you and,and we're hitting all five
(10:32):
senses and all of this thing.
And then there's an invitationto give your life to Christ.
What is that person?
You know, put yourself in theirshoes.
What are they thinking they'regetting themselves into?
Speaker 1 (10:42):
oh, they think they're getting into a really
cool frat house.
I don't know, that's the firstanalogy that hit my mind, but
that's real Like an actual frathouse is kind of what's honestly
to challenge you a little bit.
I would think frat houses aremore difficult you know, to get
into right, they've got, they'vegot actually challenges to
enter in.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
but what we're doing is is creating this environment
where we're sugarcoating towhere it's actually a very, very
hard letdown for a lot ofpeople when they realize that
this whole thing is about fullsurrender.
And so it's not that we'retrying to make it harder for
people to follow Jesus, but,again, we're following Jesus's
example.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Method, his model and his model.
Well, you know, when peoplesaid, hey, I want to follow you,
he looked at them.
And because to follow you helooked at him?
And because he was Jesus, heknew their heart's intent and
motive.
So he would go straight to theheart.
Okay, you want to follow me?
You're a rich man?
Sell all your possessions andgive it to the poor.
Yeah, oh, my goodness.
It said the man was unable tocommit to that commitment and he
(11:40):
walked away.
And it says Jesus washeartbroken and he walked away.
And it says Jesus washeartbroken.
But Jesus didn't say wait, wait, wait, wait.
Just, let's just start with athird.
We'll just start there, We'lljust start with a third.
No, he stuck with what he said,because he wants true followers
of Christ, not people who arejust in it for what they can
gain.
And so, and then the nextperson he uses an illustration
in the scriptures is a man,walks up to him and was like hey
(12:01):
, you got to leave your family.
And the guy was like I can'tleave my family, Like I love my
family, Can I just wait tillthey die first?
And he said no, let the deadbury the dead.
Like let those who are lost,not in Christ Jesus.
Go along their way, and whenthey die, they'll bury.
Let them bury themselves, youknow, let the other family bury
themselves.
But if you want to also have,you know, peter and James and
(12:28):
John, they come to Jesus andthey're like Jesus, lord, you
know, I want to follow you.
And he says are you going todrink my blood and eat my flesh?
They're like really hardteaching, kind of weird.
70 walked away but the 12stayed because they said what do
I have to go back to?
Because they truly had deniedeverything.
(12:49):
They had nothing to go back to.
So I'm telling y'all that whenyou receive Jesus and you want
to come to Christ, if you goahead and just lay everything on
there, I remember when I firstgave my life to the Lord, this
is what I did and it waspowerful and I kept this for
many years for a reminder.
When I gave my life to Jesus, Ifelt like the Holy Spirit told
me to write out a check to Jesusand just I got an.
(13:12):
We used to use checks.
We don't use checks anymore.
I don't think I've written acheck in actually like five or
six years or longer, but 13years ago we had a checkbook and
so I pulled out a check and Iwrote in there to Jesus from you
know, brooke, and I put in anamount, just whatever amount he
wanted.
I left the amount blank open.
Yes and I signed it and I put iton my wall in my closet to
(13:34):
remind me.
The day I said yes to Jesus, Isigned everything over.
So whatever he asked for, I'mgoing to do it because I
understood when I met him I wasdying to myself.
Not because a pastor actuallytold me that, because Jesus
himself told me that when I methim I was dying to myself, Not
because a pastor actually toldme that, because Jesus himself
told me that when I encounteredhim, he said Brooke, you've got
to give it all to me now.
If you don't give it all to menow, I'm turning you over to a
(13:54):
debased place, and that I wasn'tgoing to go there.
I was going to surrender it all.
So that is what it means and Ikept that check for many, many
years to just as a reminderdon't go back, Brooke, there's
nothing to go back to.
You know, just like thedisciples said, so literally,
Peter and them are asking themwhat do we go back to?
And Jesus is like you can goand he's like we have nothing.
We've burned it all.
We burned the plows, we burnedall the relationships.
(14:19):
Like we're in, like we havenothing to go back.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
That's why the command is come and die.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
You know, no.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
I agree, but I think you can't going along with that.
You can't really taste thattransformation and that full
experience until you first layeverything down, lay it all down
Like it's that blank checkmentality.
So I think that's why it's soimportant to show that to people
first, and that doesn't meanyou know what you're going to
have to lay down Like when.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
I signed that check, I didn't realize it was going to
cost me everything I did.
But I didn't.
But because I made the choiceto say yes, it made it so much
easier when he actually askedthese things of me to be like.
I've already made the choice,the decision's been made, I
can't go back now.
And that's why it was easy forthe disciples the decision had
already been made, so there wasno going back now.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
There should be like a scripture somewhere that says
you know, before saying yes toJesus you should count the cost
100%, 100% there is.
There is a verse.
No, that's amazing, but I thinkit just sets people up for
success.
I've known too many people,including myself, that just
didn't understand really fullywhat I was getting into, so it
took a while for full surrenderto take place.
(15:28):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Or some people didn't stick it out because it was too
much, the surrender was toogreat, and they go back to their
comfortable lives.
But they still think they'reChristians.
That's the sad part.
But they actually went back totheir comfortable lives and they
don't even realize theyforfeited their salvation and
their comfortability.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Sure Cause we're we're trusting what other people
are saying Instead of lookingat scriptures and seeing what
are the marks of a true disciple.
You know what does Jesusactually say.
I was just reading this lastnight.
There are multiple scriptures,most of them in John, so you
might be familiar with them 15,John eight that talk about this
(16:07):
makes you a disciple.
You know.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
One of those is the way, the way that the people
will know you're my disciple,because you love like Christ.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
You know, people will know you're my disciple because
you actually obey right.
You obey the scriptures, youobey the word.
We're not taught that.
Um again, a lot of people saythings with their mouth.
They, we, we preach a certainmessage, but then we show people
something else.
Our example is different.
We're telling people no.
To follow Jesus, to be a truedisciple, means that you've
surrendered everything and youactually obey what he says his
word, but then what we'reshowing them by what we put our
(16:34):
emphasis on is no, what makesyou a Christian is that you
raise your hand, you pray theprayer, but then you also come
to a gathering on Sundays orwhatever.
Your association with thechurch as an organization,
Community is absolutelyimportant in your walk, but
there's a, there's a.
(16:55):
There's a tends to be a hugegap in the people's lives that
enter in not knowing whatthey're getting into and when
they actually start reaping thethe the true fruit in their
lives and that usually is themoment of like.
You'll hear a lot of people'stestimony where they're like you
know, I believed in Jesus whenI was six and then, um, you know
, when I was 10, I had thisother thing that happened, and
then I walked away from Jesusfor a little while and then, at
(17:16):
24, that's when I had thistransformative encounter and I'm
like, honestly, you didn't evenget born again until you were
there.
It's weird that we're trying tosay like, oh, I've been a
believer, like I've been aChristian since I was six.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
No, you believed in God since you were six, but you
didn't become a true follower ofChrist until you were 24.
And you laid down all your sinand you died and you actually
started picking up a cross andfollowing Jesus Like you just
had encounters but obviouslyyour spirit wasn't ready to
surrender yet.
But because God loves all men,it said all men, he says he's
drawing all men to himself.
So you'll have these encounterswith God throughout your young
(17:52):
adult life, childhood, whatever.
But there has to be a moment ofoh, I have to fully surrender
my life.
But until he is Lord and youfully surrendered, you are not
following, you are not sealed,you are not born again, you are
not walking out the wall.
That's why salvation is ajourney which is a whole, nother
topic we'll talk abouteventually.
(18:13):
It's not an instant in time.
You can't say, oh, I got savedat 12.
How can you say that?
Because you haven't even beensaved yet.
I mean from earth.
You know you still are walkingout your salvation.
So, anyways, that's anothertopic.
But I think if we teach likeyou truly have to come to Jesus
and die, these kids that getborn again at 12, they might
actually walk out a holy lifeuntil they're 24.
(18:34):
You know what I'm saying.
Or if they give their lives toJesus at 16, they might actually
walk it out.
Or maybe they won't come andhave these false conversions and
then get all mixed up andconfused and then have a real
radical encounter with Jesus at23 and have to relearn
everything.
They'll just keep going alongtheir merry way and then
hopefully surrender at somepoint in their life, instead of
feeling like they're convincedat 16 they're saved because they
(18:55):
never died.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Yeah, it's just this false idea, this false
expectation.
But also it's it's funny how,over time, we seem to change the
standard based on ourexperience, right, and so now,
all of a sudden, it's likewhat's expected.
It's expected that even kidsthat grow up, quote unquote, in
the church or in a Christianfamily are going to have this
(19:16):
time where they rebel and thenthey come back and all of this
stuff where they don't, and sothat's what we expect and so
we're not thrown off by that, wejust think that's what's
supposed to happen.
I remember you having aconversation with a mom years
ago that was talking about liketeenagers and teenagers are
going, they're going toexperiment and they're going to
(19:36):
go through these years, and whatwas your response to that?
Speaker 1 (19:41):
I don't agree with you.
Yeah, I don't think that thathas to be what our kids
experience.
But I think our kids experiencethat because they're seeing a
lukewarm, watered down gospelthat has zero power.
So why would they stay whenthey get into their 20s when the
world's offering them somethingthat's just as real as Jesus
(20:02):
Witchcraft, new age, you name itTarot cards, you know.
Parties, drugs, alcohol arejust as real as Jesus is real.
They give you euphorias andexperiences that feel great in
the moment and pacify in themoment.
But we're over here talkingabout this goofy, lovey-dovey
Jesus that can't save you andbreak bondage off of you and
(20:25):
can't defeat a demon and can'tdo all these things and heal the
sick and all this stuff.
The reason why he walked inpower was to demonstrate his
power over darkness.
If you're over here givingpeople a cakewalk Jesus, they're
like well, why am I going to dothat when the power over
darkness?
If you're over here givingpeople a cakewalk Jesus, they're
like well, why am I going to dothat when the power over here
is way more real?
You know what I'm saying.
So I think if you show kids thetrue Jesus that walked on water
(20:49):
, that raised the dead, thatmultiplied bread, healed the
sick, cast out demons.
They're a lot less likely towalk away because that Jesus and
they encounter that and watchthat and see those miracles,
what they got to go to.
That makes the devil look thisbig.
But all of us out here are likeoh well, miracles cease.
Where in the Bible does it saythat?
Tell me, show me a verse.
(21:10):
And I can't show you a versethat says they didn't cease.
But why are we going to writesomething in the text that's not
there?
But he did say to all disciplesyou will go, do greater things
than I did.
It's not just talking to the12.
, it's talking to us all,disciples, you know.
So give them the real gospel.
Give kids the real Jesus.
Don't turn it into a fluffystory and a fluffy soft Jesus,
(21:31):
and maybe they'll stick around alittle longer and not give up
so quick.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah, it just hit me when you were saying that I was
picturing like this anemicmalnutrition, jesus that we
present and it hit me, that'sthe reason why we have to
supplement.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
It literally as you're talking.
I was picturing.
If you preach anemic Jesus, youhave to supplement iron, and so
what we're doing is we'recreating environments that
supplement.
We've got coffee shops, arcadesyeah coffee shop Jesus, so we're
supplementing him.
Again, nothing wrong withcoffee I drink coffee.
There's nothing wrong withsupplements, right.
But what we're doing is we'representing the wrong Jesus.
(22:11):
And so, to make up for it,we're doing all of these other
things to attract people in, butthey're attracted into the
supplements.
That all of these other thingsto attract people in, but
they're attracted into thesupplements, because we're
preaching the wrong Jesus.
We're giving them the wrongmessage.
Really, we're preaching ananemic gospel because it doesn't
change and it doesn't transform.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
And people are deficient.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Right, We've stripped it.
It's what is said in the bookof Timothy right there's a form
of godliness that actually lackspower and transformation that's
being preached lacks power andtransformation that's being
preached.
And so we, instead of, insteadof repenting and looking at the
true gospel and then preachingthat, regardless of people's
(22:48):
response and regardless of whatit looks like from the outside
regardless is if, instead of a,instead of a thousand, coming in
, we have 10 or five that areauthentic.
Uh, we keep just adding toadding programs, adding all of
these things to make it seembetter, adding all the sprinkles
so that we can keep up with theshow.
That's right, but what we needto do is repent, preach the real
(23:09):
gospel, watch people's livesactually get changed and
transform.
It's going to be less likeworse.
We're fighting against the factthat Jesus literally said only
a fourth, 25% right In Mark,chapter four, make it the
parable of the seed.
Only four are actually going toreceive it and then bear fruit.
But how much fruit do they bear?
160, 30.
(23:30):
Right, right, 360, 100 fold.
Yeah, 360, 100 fold fruit, andso we're just looking at it from
a wrong framework.
It's like no Jesus went afterthe ones that were authentic,
the ones that were real, theones that the spirit was drawing
.
That's another thing is, youknow, if the if the the wrong
question is how do we attractpeople into the church?
Speaker 1 (23:49):
That's the wrong question.
What's the?
Speaker 2 (23:50):
right question.
I think what the right questionis is looking in our city,
looking in our workplace,looking in our schools, looking
all over the culture and sayingwhere is God already at work?
That's right, when is the HolySpirit already at work, and how
can I partner with what he'sdoing?
So, instead of doing that,we're creating our own kingdoms
(24:15):
and our own systems and invitingGod to fill and bless those
systems.
And you know what Many times hedoes work in those systems
because it's all he's getting.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Yeah, that's right, that's all he's getting.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
But he's waiting for the church to wake up and say
I'm done with building my ownkingdom and trying to invite you
into my little project.
And I'm looking around.
What did Jesus say?
Did Jesus build something andthen say, god, would you come
help me with this?
Or did he say I only do what Isee my father doing, right?
So Jesus was going about hisfather's business, and it wasn't
(24:49):
that he was creating somethingto attract people.
He was going about his father'sbusiness.
He was preaching the truemessage.
That was, miracles werebreaking out.
People were drawn to that.
That's right.
Think about this.
So we're drawing people to thechurch service building, but
(25:09):
what he was doing was actuallydrawing people to God.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
I still am stuck on what you said, like a deficient
Jesus makes deficient disciples.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yeah, you have to supplement, so the church needs
some blood work.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
The church needs a blood transfusion, a Holy Ghost
blood transfusion.
Yeah, that's crazy.
So what do we do to fix this?
Justin, like you kind of gaveus a little bit what you were
just saying just then, likegoing to where the people are
doing the message of Jesus, um,but but let's say there's a
(25:45):
pastor listening right now.
That's like oh crap, I'm aconsumer church and I want to do
something different.
Like what would they do?
Speaker 2 (25:52):
I would say it's a lot harder for someone in that
position, than it is a brand newbeliever that doesn't have of
these things and I thinkhonestly that's what holds back
a lot of pastors and leaders.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
The bigger following they have Not all, but most.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah, the bigger organization they have, the
bigger paycheck they have.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
There's a lot to lose .
Speaker 2 (26:08):
So I would say first of all, you need to count the
cost.
That's right.
You need to count the cost ofwhat you're actually getting
ready to say yes to and whetheror not you're willing to lay
everything down for Jesus.
Most people think most pastorsand leaders would think oh, it's
laying down my old life and sinand all of those things Like
yes, that is that.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
No, you need to lay down the fake kingdom you've
built up and called it Jesus'skingdom.
Like are you?
Speaker 2 (26:30):
truly willing to lay down your ministry?
Yeah, that's right, because wewatch a lot of people just grasp
onto it.
But what does Jesus say?
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Right?
Well, I just think of theTitanic just popped in my head
when you were talking.
Like that captain was unwillingto let go of his boat so he
died with the ship.
Like traditionalism,institutionalism, y'all.
If you don't see, it is dying.
Like what is the statistic,justin he's my number guy of
people leaving the church on ayearly basis Like they're not
(27:01):
leaving their faith, but they'releaving the institution by the
droves, by the millions, rightEvery year?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Oh, yeah, yeah, it was.
It was over a million in 2020years ago.
Yeah, yeah 2010.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Yeah, so it's like we're sitting here looking at
these numbers and, again, it'snot that Christianity is dying.
Now, if you look at the church,it might feel that way, like at
the church building institution, it might be like, wow,
christianity is slacking.
But no, people are actuallylooking for something real and
authentic that actually doescost them.
People are okay if somethingcosts them.
Think about it Like if you buya very expensive purse, you're
(27:33):
going to take a lot better careof it than if you bought, like,
a $12 bag on Amazon.
So if you're giving them $12gospel, they're going to treat
it like a $12 gospel.
But if you're treating it likea pearl that's worth everything
in a field that you sell allyour possessions to go harvest
it out of the field, what arethey going to do with that
gospel?
They're going to treat it likeit costs them everything.
(27:55):
So, I think first, like forpastors, they, just like you
said, like, need to evaluate notjust pastors, but all believers
.
Like, evaluate your life.
Like is there something in yourheart?
We watched the Forge thisweekend, so good, go watch it.
Crowd about 55 times right.
But the dude's in his room, he'sreading his Bible and his
discipler says, like you have tofollow Jesus, you have to lay
(28:17):
something down.
And he gave an example of whatthat was.
And so the kid goes into hisroom and he's sitting there and
he's praying.
He's like God, like what do Ineed to lay down?
And he looks over at his videosgames and he's like crap, no,
jesus, not my video games.
And then he's like I know, butit consumes my life, my time, my
mind, my all my energy.
So he literally trashed hisvideo games and got him out of
(28:39):
his life.
What do you need to get out ofyour life Like, is it video
games?
Is it materialism?
Is it comfortability?
Is it family?
Like, what is holding you backfrom truly?
Is it money?
What's holding you back fromtruly following Jesus?
Get it out of your life, startthere.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Yeah, yeah, I'm going to answer your question very
simply.
So, to the person, I'll startwith the person who doesn't have
all of that stuff you know, togive up, to the person just
either entering into their walkwith Christ, or to the person
that doesn't have a ministry orwhatever.
They're just everyday disciplesand stuff like that.
Number one it starts withhumbling yourself and
recognizing you don't have itall right and being willing to
look in the scriptures and seewhat was the?
What was it?
(29:21):
Where we need to start is whatwas the model that Jesus laid
out?
Speaker 1 (29:24):
for us yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Okay, not looking at the scriptures through the lens
of our traditions and what waspassed down to us.
But what did Jesus actually doand what did he prioritize?
That's right, and I think itstarts there, because I can sit
here and give you a list of whatthe best church model and
structure looks like, which it'snot about.
It's not about creating aspecific model that we can just
reproduce, because then it'llturn into idolatry.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
It'll turn into the same system that we're trying to
avoid.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
But when Jesus walked on the scene, what did he do
with the current church model?
Speaker 1 (29:53):
if you will, the synagogue model.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
He literally walked in.
It disrupted it and then helooked at the people that were
idolizing it and said this won'tstand Within this generation.
It will all be rubble Bedestroyed.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
That's right.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Not one left on another, andthen he called himself the
temple.
Why?
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Because he wanted to mobilize the church.
And what have we done?
We have literally rebuilt thestructures, the temple and the
religious system that Jesus toredown.
There was a reason he did that.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Well, I think back on a revelation I had one time I
was sitting and praying and thesong this Little Light of Mine
came into my mind and I'm like,am I singing this?
I haven't sung this song sinceI was a little girl and I'm like
this little light of mine, I'mgoing to let it shine.
Don't hide it under a bushel.
No, I'm going to let it shine.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Don't hide it under a bushel.
No, I'm going to let it shine.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
And as I'm seeing this in my mind, I had this
picture of the church buildinghad become the basket and the
lights were hidden inside thislittle building because we think
this is what church is, butit's actually not what church is
.
That's right.
We have to get outside of thebuilding and actually go let our
light shine to all the world,and so I think that's that's a
huge part of it.
Like, the church is where wecome together to be equipped, to
go out and do them to beequipped, equipped, equipped
(31:14):
y'all homeschool mom.
They're gonna be so smartanyway.
They come to be equipped andthen they end up going back out
into the earth to literallyrescue it for the kingdom of God
.
But that's not what we'reproducing.
So I just had this picture whenyou were talking just a minute
ago.
When we have a baby, we get anewborn baby and they're
(31:35):
completely and solely dependenton us for about 18 months,
around 18 months.
They're now walking well,they're eating solid foods,
they're learning how to eat bythemselves all these types of
things and we know in this dayand age, like a video game and a
screen is not what you want togive your 18 month old right
away.
You actually want to give themthings that build and develop
(31:58):
their skills, like toys thatactually help them have hand eye
coordination.
But what do we do as a churchas soon as we get a newborn baby
, we nurse them and then we givethem lights, camera, flashy
action and it's producing that.
People that can't even have aquiet time because their mind is
so overstimulated byconsumerism and the lights,
(32:19):
camera, action at church and thecharismatic speaker that gives
them a joke every like.
You know a couple lines and sowhen they get into the word of
God and getting into prayer,they don't even know how to pray
and sit for 30 minutes to prayor even read their Bible for 30
minutes, because they need to bestimulated all the time.
Like we wouldn't do it to ourtwo-year-old, so why are we
(32:41):
doing it to our spiritualchildren?
You know, like overstimulatingthem.
So I think, just simplifying itgo back, just read.
Go, you believers, if you livein America or in any form of the
Western world, even third worldcountries, now a lot of people
are learning how to read.
You know, if you have a Bibleand you can read it.
(33:02):
Read what Jesus did in the bookof Acts Did he ever build a
building?
Or even in the Gospels did heever build a building?
Did he ever say build a church?
No, he said come, repent,follow me, die to self, pick up
your cross and now, once you'vedied to yourself and you pick
your cross up daily, now go makedisciples.
And then you look at the bookof Acts and actually the church
was dispersed.
It never stayed in one building.
(33:27):
There was no such thing as amegachurch it could have easily
became that but because ofpersecution it was dispersed
among the whole known world atthe time and they went into the
homes, they made disciples andthe disciples stayed in
Jerusalem for X amount of years,not even knowing that the
church had actually been growing.
And they go to actually leavebecause they hear that, oh, the
things you taught while allthese people were here they're
actually doing in their townsnow that they're not here
(33:48):
anymore and they go to see andchurch has grown, but not
because they're buildingbuildings.
It's because they actually hadthe seed of God in them to go
out and make disciples andreproduce what they had received
.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
We got to do that.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
It's not that the it's not that the first century
church had it perfect.
So it's not like we takeeverything that they do.
No, you could see from, if youread from the beginning of Acts
to the end, where things changedand people don't recognize that
.
It's like yes, there'sprinciples that we can learn
from them.
The better thing to do is toread through it and look what
they were still doing by the endof the book of Acts.
Look how things were morphingand changing Like think about
(34:26):
the beginning of Acts and howtheir Jewish culture and what
they have understood theirtraditions, I should say caused
them to do.
It caused them to roll dice topick a new apostle right.
You don't see that continuing tohappen.
Right, they understood thatthere were different ways to go
about stuff.
And then you see later on wherethey're gathering together to
make a decision to you know howthey should respond to certain
(34:47):
problems in the church, andthey're coming together asking
the Holy spirit, figuring outways to do that.
And so you see it kind of morphand change.
But you know, a lot of times wedon't, we don't look at that,
we don't.
We don't actually look at that.
Look at their example and seewhat they did and ask ourselves
why they did what they did.
Right.
And so I would say, step one,even before we got into we can
lay in later episodes, get intospecific details of the fruit of
(35:10):
making these decisions and whatit looks like, but honestly,
number one is um is likerenewing your mind in this area.
Would you agree Like until weactually renew our mind in this
area and get into the word ofGod and see?
See it firsthand for ourselvesby taking off those religious
lenses we can't actually startto implement stuff.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Because guess what we'll do.
Well, it, like a magnet, willgo right.
It doesn't matter if you gotrid of your building to say
you're a pastor, you get rid ofyour building, you get rid of
all this stuff and you're likeyou know what?
I'm moving everything to ahouse.
Guess what you're going to dowithout renewing your mind.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
You're going to start preaching in your home right,
you're going to line up yourchairs.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
All of a sudden you're right back to what you
know, what's comfortable.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
You have to.
I'm even learning that now,like with being a homeschool mom
, like I've maybeovercomplicated it in the years
and the Lord's teaching me likesimplify, kind of unschool your
kids.
That doesn't mean I don't doanything with my children.
I still put a lot of effortinto stimulation of their minds
and helping them to learn ontheir own.
My goal now as a mom is not tospoon feed them information so
(36:14):
they can pass a test.
My goal is to teach them to behungry, how to learn and teach
themselves so that when they getout in the world and they're
not under mommy and daddy's roof, they know how to figure
something out on their own andnot listen to people's opinions,
you know, and they actually canhave thoughts for themselves.
And so it's the same for us,like we have to un-re-church
ourselves un-church ourselves,so that we can actually
(36:35):
re-church, you know, and like,actually do church the way it
was, because if you don't renewyour mind in this area, you'll
just go back to what is familiar, and we do that with everything
like dieting.
I don't know how to lose weight.
All I know is I need to starvemyself.
I starve myself and I gain itall back in 30 plus pounds, and
so I just do this yo-yo effect,because that's all I know.
You know it's the same aboutdieting on anything you believe.
(36:56):
If you don't change yourthought process in your mind and
your belief system around money, health, whatever, you go back
to what's comfortable and youend up broke or whatever the
case may be.
So you have to fully renew yourmind.
And fully renewing your minddoesn't mean you read something
over and over again.
Fully renewing your mind meansyou read it and you get the
knowledge in your mind.
Then you start to change theway you think about it.
You meditate on it, then youstart to change the way you talk
(37:19):
and then the actions willfollow to the mind and the talk
of what you're, you'reunderstanding, and once the
actions have changed completely,you know your mind is now
renewed.
Yep, so it starts with that.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yeah and no.
That's a great example becauseyou can.
It's like a little literally aparallel effect of how we can
look at the uh, how school began, the intentions of school when
it began and where it's come toafter it's been
institutionalized, westernized.
The government is takingcontrol of it, but we don't
realize.
There's a lot of people thatare looking at the school
(37:50):
systems and they can recognizethat that's right.
They're calling it out.
It's not working, but they'renot recognizing the same things
happening with the church.
Right, it's becominginstitutionalized and we're
doing all of those things,thinking that we're creating a
better system, and there's noroom for the spirit.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
It can't be spirit led because it's a system.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yeah, so just like we eventually.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Systems run without people.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Think about that, just as the school system
eventually leads the directionit does and then kicks God out
of it.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
I think the church is on the exact trajectory.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
And the scary part is is because it's the church
quote unquote a lot of peopleare not even recognizing it's
happening.
That's right, okay.
Book of Revelation when Jesusis standing at the door knocking
, he's not knocking on the heartof an unbeliever.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
He's knocking on the doors to the church saying let
me in, Let me in.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
So by our actions and our slow drift, eventually we
are taking over and building somany systems and structures and
programs that we no longer needthe Holy Spirit.
And when the Holy Spirit is notwelcomed, when he's not invited
, when he's not needed by ourwords or our actions, he steps
away.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
What is Jesus's warning to the church that won't
do what he's commanding them todo in the book of Revelation.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Well, he left the temple.
I mean, he left the temple.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Well, that?
And he says I will come to you.
Yes, Right, talk about thereturn of Jesus, I will come to
you and I will remove yourlampstand Cool.
Think about that.
Here's the scary part If youget to the place where you are
are running church, you aregathering as the church without
the Holy Spirit.
You won't even recognize whenhe's left.
(39:26):
That's right, Because youkicked him out years ago.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
That's right.
And, pastors, you cannot sitthere and look.
All my numbers are growing andthe money is up and we're doing
great with our tithe.
As your standard of testing thefruit of it, you actually have
to look at what am I reproducingin people, and are the people
I'm discipling making disciples?
Speaker 2 (39:42):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
You cannot look at the finances and how big your
congregation has grown.
Anyone can draw a crowd.
I can draw a crowd if I wantedto.
I got a spunky personality, youknow.
So I could draw a crowd.
But if I'm not giving them thereal Jesus, they're just going
to always come back to me andsit down with me to hear what I
have to say, because I'm spunky,charismatic and funny.
But and funny but.
(40:07):
Am I actually giving themsomething that they can take
outside of our relationship andgive to someone else that leads
them to Jesus and not to me?
Speaker 2 (40:10):
or to a building.
Yeah, that's so good.
And let's wind down with thisthought because I want to leave
people with something to thinkabout.
So we've said a lot.
We've talked about attractionalchurch or extractional church
versus incarnational right.
We're discipling people, we'rebringing them in, but they're
not losing their connection withthe world.
They're not in the world right,they're not acting like the
world Right, but the connectionrelationally is still there so
(40:33):
that they can influence theworld right.
That's right we want to sendthem back out as missionaries
into their culture, into theircity.
We don't want to put them in theChristian bubble, right.
So we talked about that.
You know, recognizing some ofthese things.
It starts with humility,repentance, recognizing I've got
it wrong and just simply askingthe question Lord, where did I
miss it?
What is church?
Beginning to read thescriptures with new lens?
(40:54):
New lenses, that's where itstarts.
And this is the thought that Iwant to leave people with.
You know, when we look atsuccess as a family, you realize
this.
When you start to get a littlebit of age and maturity on you,
your kids are starting to getolder and for a long time in
your twenties, maybe even yourthirties, you're thinking about
how you can become successful,even if it's for providing for
(41:16):
your family, Right.
But there comes this time whereyou switch over to this
generational mindset of now Wow,I see that time is it's not
running out, but it's like youknow you're getting there,
You're halfway through, Right,and you're like what do I want?
What is the impact I want toleave?
What do I want to, how do Iwant the generation behind me to
to have been impacted by me?
(41:39):
And so I think those are thetypes of questions we need to
start asking, uh, when we'relooking at how to, how to gather
as the church and the effectthat we need to start asking,
when we're looking at how togather as the church and the
effect that we want to have onthe people that we're discipling
.
Because if we're only and Ithink mainly we are, but if
we're only thinking onegeneration, then we're doing
good, right, we're for our ownsuccess, the success of our
organization.
But guess what's happening?
99% of the people that are inthe congregations.
(42:02):
They're not able to reproduce.
They're not equipped toreproduce.
They're 20, 30, 40 years intothe church and they don't know
how to reproduce.
They still have to bring theystill have to bring people to
mom and dad in order for them toto.
It's not even multiplication,it's just addition at that point
, Okay, so we're veryshort-sighted in the way that
we're thinking.
(42:22):
So I think, if we just thinkabout that, if I could leave you
with anything, think about whatnot would what would make the
most successful thing right now,right here and now, but what is
going to leavemulti-generational impact?
How can we not only multiply?
And when you think aboutmultiplication, it's about
equipping your disciples or thepeople you're discipling your
children and, like a realscenario, father and mother,
(42:43):
you're thinking about how youcan equip them to begin to
reproduce.
Because when you're, when you'regoing to be long gone by the
time that your familygenerational line you know in in
like physically your familygenerational line has, uh, a
thousand people in it right, thenew family you know, or?
whatever, and it's like we got abunch of boys so it'll happen,
right, why don't we think aboutthat?
(43:10):
Like the church, like with thechurch?
Yeah, because ultimately,what's going to happen is it's
going to look like we'veachieved less because we've
poured deeply into fewer amountof people, but a hundred years
from now, you could haveimpacted an entire continent.
Yeah, that's what we have tothink about.
What is going to give meexponential growth?
That's so good, because, notbecause I want exponential
(43:31):
growth or I want a big name formyself, but because it pleases
the Lord, yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
I'm so over.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Yeah, go ahead, john 15 talks about what he's called
you to do, and that is to bearmuch fruit, and fruit that
remains.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
That's so good.
Yeah, I'm over trying to likehave a bunch of numbers because
I'm learning more and more as Imature in the Lord that if the
world can count and measure mysuccess, god's not looking at
those numbers.
He's looking at the numbersnobody sees the lives that have
been changed that nobody knowsabout.
You know, so look for that kindof fruit in your life.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
That's right, and if you bear more of that fruit than
the fruit that people canactually see it's, it's probably
actually going to have muchmore of a deep effect impact and
it's going to point people toChrist more right Then that
superficial fruit that justbrings a lot of people looking
to you.
I wish we had more time to talk, but you know, uh, we, I think
we brought up this scripturefirst, first Corinthians.
(44:31):
Chapter two, where theCorinthian church was, was
dealing with the idolatry of manof people.
I follow Paul, I follow Apollos,I follow Jesus, you know.
And there was all this divisionand Paul said the reason it was
is because they were carnal andpeople were following after the
fancy ministries and the fancywords of people.
(44:52):
And that's why he said when Icame to you, I just brought
Christ and him crucified.
Like, even though I've got moreto say right now, I'm not going
to say it right now because Iwant you fully dependent on him
before I give you further wisdom.
That's so good.
Yeah, that's why we try to justkeep it simple.
I'm not going to say it rightnow because I want you fully
dependent on him before I giveyou further wisdom.
So good, yeah, that's why wetry to just keep it simple and
then, when you can grasp that,that, that simple foundational
life of a disciple, Then we'lltalk about the secrets God's
(45:15):
revealed.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
Then you can move on to those things.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
Yeah, that's so good, awesome so good.
But yeah, I've had a lot of funtalking about this.
I think I have a feelingthere'll be a connection in
episode four where we'llcontinue.
I've already got some things onmy mind of what I would love
some discussion on discipleship.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
What discipleship looks like?
Yeah, maybe some.
Just to give you a preview ofnext episode, maybe.
What does it look like to notbe self-seeking but to deny
yourself?
I agree we can get into some ofthose conversations.
So thank you guys for joiningus today.
It's been a pleasure and we'llsee you in the next episode.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Yeah, have a good day , guys.
But I love how it says pick up your cross daily.
I think a lot of people thinkthat following Jesus is just a
one-time repentance moment or aone-time situation, and then
you're good to go forever.
That's deception.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
He's waiting for the church to wake up and say I'm
done with building my ownkingdom and trying to invite you
into my little project.
Did Jesus build something andthen say, god, would you come
help me with this?
Or did he say I only do what Isee my father do?
That's right, yeah, it just hitme when you were saying that I
was picturing like this anemicmalnutrition, jesus that we
present and it hit me, that'sthe reason why we have to
(00:35):
supplement.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Let's say there's a pastor listening right now.
That's like oh crap, I'm aconsumer church and I want to do
something different.
Like what would they do?
Welcome to the ReChurch podcast.
If you're tired of business asusual Christianity and ready to
live more like Jesus, you havefound yourself in the right
place.
I'm your host, Justin Knoop.
I'm here again with my lovelywife, Brooke.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Knoop, hello, hello, hello.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Doing all right today , Brooke.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
I am.
We started homeschool today.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Awesome.
So that?
How's that going?
Speaker 1 (01:12):
It was really good.
It's our 12th year.
Yeah, wow 12 years ofhomeschooling.
We've obviously moved to Texas.
We've mentioned that a coupleof times.
They have a lot better laws forhomeschooling so it's a little
bit more relaxed, not as muchpressure, so that has been
really nice.
But I'm also homeschooling ourfive-year-old, which throws
(01:34):
things a little bit different,but it was really good.
So I'm thankful for that.
But my brain is still thinkingabout the gold rush in Alaska
right now.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
All the interesting stuff you get to learn it at
homeschooling.
I get it Well.
We had a really interestingconversation last week on our
second episode.
This is now our third episodeof the Reacher's podcast, so
it's going really well.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
but I'm realizing quickly, like we've got a lot to
talk about, a lot to cover andsometimes it's just, it's tough
to cover everything in oneepisode.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Um, tell me a little bit about what we, what we
discussed last week.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah.
So I think last week we weretalking about like consumerism
of the church and like I lovethe way you said it like
business as usual.
You know, the church neverpauses to think about like why
maybe isn't it working?
So instead they just add moreprograms, more things and keep
going with business as usualinstead of rethinking things.
So we discussed that aboutconsumerism and the reason why
(02:32):
we're seeing the production ofconsumerism Christianity growing
is because the church isattracting consumers and not
disciples, not truly laid-downlovers who are taught deny
yourself, pick up your cross andfollow Jesus.
So instead the church I're,we're the church, I think the
mega church model, or evenchurches in general they don't
realize what they're doing byputting in arcades and having
(02:54):
these massive conferences thatcost thousands of dollars, with
all the lights, cameras andactions and, you know, having
the best lighting and all thethings and the most eloquent
speakers.
I don't think they intentionallyare meaning to produce
consumers, but they are becausethey're attracting people that
just want to be like, just toconsume.
You know the cool thing.
So I think that's why we'reproducing that and so we
(03:15):
discussed that last week justthe producing of consumer
Christianity and not reallyseeing the fruit of the New
Testament church in our churchesthese days.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
So I think now we need to have a solution.
What do we do?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Absolutely so.
We don't want to seem likewe're just constantly
deconstructing or being critical, even though it's needed to
like yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
We need to challenge it.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
It is For sure we need to make people think.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
That's why the word re-church like re-think church,
you know, is the whole point ofthis.
Because I think we realized asa couple and with our travels
and experience that like churchin the megachurch setting is not
technically what Christ hascalled us to do.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah, and that's the big thing.
Again.
We mentioned this over and over.
Traditions are not bad in andof themselves.
Structures are not bad in and ofthemselves Like we use them all
the time their structure withinthe family, within our home,
with when we eat dinner, likehow we function as a family.
It's not all bad, but we dohave to stop every now and then
to pause to rethink everythingthat we're implementing in our
(04:17):
lives and whether or not it isproducing the fruit of the goal
that we want or it's not.
And when it comes to the waythat we function in the church,
really looking back biblicallyand saying you know, is this
what scripture teaches us to do?
Is this what Jesus set anexample for?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
us to do.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
And I know we're diving head, you know, straight
in.
But this, you know, one thingcame to my mind when we were
talking, because the main thingI want to talk, I want to talk
about today, is what you justsaid earlier.
You're talking about anattractional model of church.
So we want to talk about thedifference between attractional
and incarnational church.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Well, explain, what does that mean?
Incarnational church?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yeah, so we'll start with attractional.
It's kind of obvious, but notso.
Basically, I think it startswith a question that we ask, so
a question that the church atlarge is asking itself when we
think about how are we going toreach culture, how are we going
to reach this generation?
And it starts off with usbelieving that the answer is
drawing them in out of the worldattracting them into the church
(05:17):
, and when I use that word, Iuse that term loosely, because
usually it means attracting themto the building right To the
Sunday meeting.
Okay, so we're asking thequestion, and Neil Cole puts
this best in his book Church 3.0, which is an amazing book.
He says we're asking thequestion how do we better
attract the culture to us?
Right, and that's when we startto implement these things in
(05:40):
our meetings and our gatheringsthat invite people into this
consumerism.
So we're thinking what attractsthe culture?
Let's put that in our churchgatherings and hopefully the
lost people will wander in.
That's right, because if youthink about it, it's pretty
obvious that most of the worldis not.
They're not just going to walkby a church building on a Sunday
and be like you know what?
I think I'll stop in and seewhat's going on, right,
(06:02):
completely outside, you know.
And so the really there's.
There's attractional, there's adefinition of the attractional
where we're figuring out waysthat we can attract people into
our church meetings.
Again, nothing wrong with thatin general.
Is it the best way?
We'll talk about that in asecond.
Number two versus incarnational.
What do I mean by incarnation?
What did Jesus do as theincarnate God into the world?
(06:22):
Right?
That's a good question.
He had a message to bring to us, and what did he do?
He became a human being and hemet us in our culture, in our
context, and he brought thatgood news into our situation.
Why?
Because I think that's the bestway to reach people is to go
into their world and bring thatmessage into their world and
(06:43):
meet them where they're at.
That's what Jesus set to us asan example.
So that's where it's like.
Okay, within discipleship,within the movement of
Christianity.
Might that be a better model,you know, for us to use?
And I think very much so.
That's right.
One scripture that I want tobring up that we can discuss
further as well, as in Luke, andit directly confronts this idea
(07:04):
of this consumer-styleChristianity where we're going
in trying to fit everythingaround our needs right In Luke,
chapter 9, this is right beforethe transfiguration.
I believe this is in Luke.
This is where Jesus feeds the5,000.
So he is meeting the crowdsright In the context.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
He's meeting the crowds, he's meeting needs.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
He was in their midst and his disciples are asking
him or actually they're meetingwith him after that and he asked
them a question.
He says you know who do peoplesay that I am?
And they start giving him youknow, elijah, all these
different things.
And then that's where Petersays you know you are the Christ
.
Right, peter says you know youare the Christ and he mentions
that right after that.
He mentions this just givingyou the context for that
(07:45):
scripture.
He says in Luke 9, 23,.
And he said to all if anyonewould come after me, let him
deny himself and take up hiscross daily and follow me.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
And I love what it says If anyone come after me,
you have to seek him.
He's already revealed himselfto the world.
He's already died for the sinsof the world.
He's done his part.
The ball's now in our court andwe have to respond to the
message that he gave us 2,000years ago when he died for us,
(08:19):
and respond to him and come tohim.
It's our turn to respond toJesus's message.
He's done.
He's done his part, so now werespond to him and then sanct
Him.
It's our turn to respond toJesus's message.
He's done.
He's done His part, so now werespond to Him and then
sanctification takes place inour life.
But I love how it says pick upyour cross daily and follow Him.
I think a lot of people thinkthat following Jesus is just a
one-time repentance moment or aone-time situation and then
(08:40):
you're good to go forever.
But that's deception.
I think it's actually alifestyle of repentance and
constantly denial of self.
And I am more eager to denymyself now in my relationship
with the Lord, 13 years in, thanI was in the very beginning,
because I just know Him more andmy love for Him has grown, just
(09:01):
like our relationship, like anymarriage you have love and you
have some infatuation, someattraction in the beginning.
But, like, I love you more nowthan I did when I first met you,
that's how marriage should beright.
That's how our relationshipwith Jesus is too.
So I trust you more now.
I followed you to Texas andaround the world.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, and I followed Jesus.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, right, and you're following Jesus.
So we're following Jesustogether and so I trust your
wisdom and discernment.
Because I've watched how youlive the same with being in
relationship with Christ,because I've been in
relationship with her so long,I'm more quickly to want to deny
myself of things because I knowHis ways are better.
But most people never get tothat point because they're never
actually taught to denythemselves point, because
(09:43):
they're never actually taught todeny themselves, so they never
really get into rightrelationship with him where
they're actually pursuing himjust for him and not what they
can gain.
So that makes a big difference.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, I agree, and I think it goes back to what we're
showing people from thebeginning.
I think that's why it's soimportant that first
introduction when sharing thegospel when inviting people to a
situation, meeting them wherethey're at, no matter what comes
out of our mouth.
They're people to a situationmeeting them there where they're
at, no matter what comes out ofour mouth.
They're going to be looking atour actions.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
And so if we're saying, hey, this is the gospel,
but the way that we share thegospel, the context that we
share the gospel typicallysounds like this hey, you know
Jesus loves you.
You know you're amazing.
You know Jesus loves you.
Um, you know you're amazing.
Like, come to my, my churchservice, and you get there and
we just like, lavish you and,and we're hitting all five
(10:32):
senses and all of this thing.
And then there's an invitationto give your life to Christ.
What is that person?
You know, put yourself in theirshoes.
What are they thinking they'regetting themselves into?
Speaker 1 (10:42):
oh, they think they're getting into a really
cool frat house.
I don't know, that's the firstanalogy that hit my mind, but
that's real Like an actual frathouse is kind of what's honestly
to challenge you a little bit.
I would think frat houses aremore difficult you know, to get
into right, they've got, they'vegot actually challenges to
enter in.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
but what we're doing is is creating this environment
where we're sugarcoating towhere it's actually a very, very
hard letdown for a lot ofpeople when they realize that
this whole thing is about fullsurrender.
And so it's not that we'retrying to make it harder for
people to follow Jesus, but,again, we're following Jesus's
example.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Method, his model and his model.
Well, you know, when peoplesaid, hey, I want to follow you,
he looked at them.
And because to follow you helooked at him?
And because he was Jesus, heknew their heart's intent and
motive.
So he would go straight to theheart.
Okay, you want to follow me?
You're a rich man?
Sell all your possessions andgive it to the poor.
Yeah, oh, my goodness.
It said the man was unable tocommit to that commitment and he
(11:40):
walked away.
And it says Jesus washeartbroken and he walked away.
And it says Jesus washeartbroken.
But Jesus didn't say wait, wait, wait, wait.
Just, let's just start with athird.
We'll just start there, We'lljust start with a third.
No, he stuck with what he said,because he wants true followers
of Christ, not people who arejust in it for what they can
gain.
And so, and then the nextperson he uses an illustration
in the scriptures is a man,walks up to him and was like hey
(12:01):
, you got to leave your family.
And the guy was like I can'tleave my family, Like I love my
family, Can I just wait tillthey die first?
And he said no, let the deadbury the dead.
Like let those who are lost,not in Christ Jesus.
Go along their way, and whenthey die, they'll bury.
Let them bury themselves, youknow, let the other family bury
themselves.
But if you want to also have,you know, peter and James and
(12:28):
John, they come to Jesus andthey're like Jesus, lord, you
know, I want to follow you.
And he says are you going todrink my blood and eat my flesh?
They're like really hardteaching, kind of weird.
70 walked away but the 12stayed because they said what do
I have to go back to?
Because they truly had deniedeverything.
(12:49):
They had nothing to go back to.
So I'm telling y'all that whenyou receive Jesus and you want
to come to Christ, if you goahead and just lay everything on
there, I remember when I firstgave my life to the Lord, this
is what I did and it waspowerful and I kept this for
many years for a reminder.
When I gave my life to Jesus, Ifelt like the Holy Spirit told
me to write out a check to Jesusand just I got an.
(13:12):
We used to use checks.
We don't use checks anymore.
I don't think I've written acheck in actually like five or
six years or longer, but 13years ago we had a checkbook and
so I pulled out a check and Iwrote in there to Jesus from you
know, brooke, and I put in anamount, just whatever amount he
wanted.
I left the amount blank open.
Yes and I signed it and I put iton my wall in my closet to
(13:34):
remind me.
The day I said yes to Jesus, Isigned everything over.
So whatever he asked for, I'mgoing to do it because I
understood when I met him I wasdying to myself.
Not because a pastor actuallytold me that, because Jesus
himself told me that when I methim I was dying to myself, Not
because a pastor actually toldme that, because Jesus himself
told me that when I encounteredhim, he said Brooke, you've got
to give it all to me now.
If you don't give it all to menow, I'm turning you over to a
(13:54):
debased place, and that I wasn'tgoing to go there.
I was going to surrender it all.
So that is what it means and Ikept that check for many, many
years to just as a reminderdon't go back, Brooke, there's
nothing to go back to.
You know, just like thedisciples said, so literally,
Peter and them are asking themwhat do we go back to?
And Jesus is like you can goand he's like we have nothing.
We've burned it all.
We burned the plows, we burnedall the relationships.
(14:19):
Like we're in, like we havenothing to go back.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
That's why the command is come and die.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
You know, no.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
I agree, but I think you can't going along with that.
You can't really taste thattransformation and that full
experience until you first layeverything down, lay it all down
Like it's that blank checkmentality.
So I think that's why it's soimportant to show that to people
first, and that doesn't meanyou know what you're going to
have to lay down Like when.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
I signed that check, I didn't realize it was going to
cost me everything I did.
But I didn't.
But because I made the choiceto say yes, it made it so much
easier when he actually askedthese things of me to be like.
I've already made the choice,the decision's been made, I
can't go back now.
And that's why it was easy forthe disciples the decision had
already been made, so there wasno going back now.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
There should be like a scripture somewhere that says
you know, before saying yes toJesus you should count the cost
100%, 100% there is.
There is a verse.
No, that's amazing, but I thinkit just sets people up for
success.
I've known too many people,including myself, that just
didn't understand really fullywhat I was getting into, so it
took a while for full surrenderto take place.
(15:28):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Or some people didn't stick it out because it was too
much, the surrender was toogreat, and they go back to their
comfortable lives.
But they still think they'reChristians.
That's the sad part.
But they actually went back totheir comfortable lives and they
don't even realize theyforfeited their salvation and
their comfortability.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Sure Cause we're we're trusting what other people
are saying Instead of lookingat scriptures and seeing what
are the marks of a true disciple.
You know what does Jesusactually say.
I was just reading this lastnight.
There are multiple scriptures,most of them in John, so you
might be familiar with them 15,John eight that talk about this
(16:07):
makes you a disciple.
You know.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
One of those is the way, the way that the people
will know you're my disciple,because you love like Christ.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
You know, people will know you're my disciple because
you actually obey right.
You obey the scriptures, youobey the word.
We're not taught that.
Um again, a lot of people saythings with their mouth.
They, we, we preach a certainmessage, but then we show people
something else.
Our example is different.
We're telling people no.
To follow Jesus, to be a truedisciple, means that you've
surrendered everything and youactually obey what he says his
word, but then what we'reshowing them by what we put our
(16:34):
emphasis on is no, what makesyou a Christian is that you
raise your hand, you pray theprayer, but then you also come
to a gathering on Sundays orwhatever.
Your association with thechurch as an organization,
Community is absolutelyimportant in your walk, but
there's a, there's a.
(16:55):
There's a tends to be a hugegap in the people's lives that
enter in not knowing whatthey're getting into and when
they actually start reaping thethe the true fruit in their
lives and that usually is themoment of like.
You'll hear a lot of people'stestimony where they're like you
know, I believed in Jesus whenI was six and then, um, you know
, when I was 10, I had thisother thing that happened, and
then I walked away from Jesusfor a little while and then, at
(17:16):
24, that's when I had thistransformative encounter and I'm
like, honestly, you didn't evenget born again until you were
there.
It's weird that we're trying tosay like, oh, I've been a
believer, like I've been aChristian since I was six.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
No, you believed in God since you were six, but you
didn't become a true follower ofChrist until you were 24.
And you laid down all your sinand you died and you actually
started picking up a cross andfollowing Jesus Like you just
had encounters but obviouslyyour spirit wasn't ready to
surrender yet.
But because God loves all men,it said all men, he says he's
drawing all men to himself.
So you'll have these encounterswith God throughout your young
(17:52):
adult life, childhood, whatever.
But there has to be a moment ofoh, I have to fully surrender
my life.
But until he is Lord and youfully surrendered, you are not
following, you are not sealed,you are not born again, you are
not walking out the wall.
That's why salvation is ajourney which is a whole, nother
topic we'll talk abouteventually.
(18:13):
It's not an instant in time.
You can't say, oh, I got savedat 12.
How can you say that?
Because you haven't even beensaved yet.
I mean from earth.
You know you still are walkingout your salvation.
So, anyways, that's anothertopic.
But I think if we teach likeyou truly have to come to Jesus
and die, these kids that getborn again at 12, they might
actually walk out a holy lifeuntil they're 24.
(18:34):
You know what I'm saying.
Or if they give their lives toJesus at 16, they might actually
walk it out.
Or maybe they won't come andhave these false conversions and
then get all mixed up andconfused and then have a real
radical encounter with Jesus at23 and have to relearn
everything.
They'll just keep going alongtheir merry way and then
hopefully surrender at somepoint in their life, instead of
feeling like they're convincedat 16 they're saved because they
(18:55):
never died.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Yeah, it's just this false idea, this false
expectation.
But also it's it's funny how,over time, we seem to change the
standard based on ourexperience, right, and so now,
all of a sudden, it's likewhat's expected.
It's expected that even kidsthat grow up, quote unquote, in
the church or in a Christianfamily are going to have this
(19:16):
time where they rebel and thenthey come back and all of this
stuff where they don't, and sothat's what we expect and so
we're not thrown off by that, wejust think that's what's
supposed to happen.
I remember you having aconversation with a mom years
ago that was talking about liketeenagers and teenagers are
going, they're going toexperiment and they're going to
(19:36):
go through these years, and whatwas your response to that?
Speaker 1 (19:41):
I don't agree with you.
Yeah, I don't think that thathas to be what our kids
experience.
But I think our kids experiencethat because they're seeing a
lukewarm, watered down gospelthat has zero power.
So why would they stay whenthey get into their 20s when the
world's offering them somethingthat's just as real as Jesus
(20:02):
Witchcraft, new age, you name itTarot cards, you know.
Parties, drugs, alcohol arejust as real as Jesus is real.
They give you euphorias andexperiences that feel great in
the moment and pacify in themoment.
But we're over here talkingabout this goofy, lovey-dovey
Jesus that can't save you andbreak bondage off of you and
(20:25):
can't defeat a demon and can'tdo all these things and heal the
sick and all this stuff.
The reason why he walked inpower was to demonstrate his
power over darkness.
If you're over here givingpeople a cakewalk Jesus, they're
like well, why am I going to dothat when the power over
darkness?
If you're over here givingpeople a cakewalk Jesus, they're
like well, why am I going to dothat when the power over here
is way more real?
You know what I'm saying.
So I think if you show kids thetrue Jesus that walked on water
(20:49):
, that raised the dead, thatmultiplied bread, healed the
sick, cast out demons.
They're a lot less likely towalk away because that Jesus and
they encounter that and watchthat and see those miracles,
what they got to go to.
That makes the devil look thisbig.
But all of us out here are likeoh well, miracles cease.
Where in the Bible does it saythat?
Tell me, show me a verse.
(21:10):
And I can't show you a versethat says they didn't cease.
But why are we going to writesomething in the text that's not
there?
But he did say to all disciplesyou will go, do greater things
than I did.
It's not just talking to the12.
, it's talking to us all,disciples, you know.
So give them the real gospel.
Give kids the real Jesus.
Don't turn it into a fluffystory and a fluffy soft Jesus,
(21:31):
and maybe they'll stick around alittle longer and not give up
so quick.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah, it just hit me when you were saying that I was
picturing like this anemicmalnutrition, jesus that we
present and it hit me, that'sthe reason why we have to
supplement.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
It literally as you're talking.
I was picturing.
If you preach anemic Jesus, youhave to supplement iron, and so
what we're doing is we'recreating environments that
supplement.
We've got coffee shops, arcadesyeah coffee shop Jesus, so we're
supplementing him.
Again, nothing wrong withcoffee I drink coffee.
There's nothing wrong withsupplements, right.
But what we're doing is we'representing the wrong Jesus.
(22:11):
And so, to make up for it,we're doing all of these other
things to attract people in, butthey're attracted into the
supplements.
That all of these other thingsto attract people in, but
they're attracted into thesupplements, because we're
preaching the wrong Jesus.
We're giving them the wrongmessage.
Really, we're preaching ananemic gospel because it doesn't
change and it doesn't transform.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
And people are deficient.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Right, We've stripped it.
It's what is said in the bookof Timothy right there's a form
of godliness that actually lackspower and transformation that's
being preached lacks power andtransformation that's being
preached.
And so we, instead of, insteadof repenting and looking at the
true gospel and then preachingthat, regardless of people's
(22:48):
response and regardless of whatit looks like from the outside
regardless is if, instead of a,instead of a thousand, coming in
, we have 10 or five that areauthentic.
Uh, we keep just adding toadding programs, adding all of
these things to make it seembetter, adding all the sprinkles
so that we can keep up with theshow.
That's right, but what we needto do is repent, preach the real
(23:09):
gospel, watch people's livesactually get changed and
transform.
It's going to be less likeworse.
We're fighting against the factthat Jesus literally said only
a fourth, 25% right In Mark,chapter four, make it the
parable of the seed.
Only four are actually going toreceive it and then bear fruit.
But how much fruit do they bear?
160, 30.
(23:30):
Right, right, 360, 100 fold.
Yeah, 360, 100 fold fruit, andso we're just looking at it from
a wrong framework.
It's like no Jesus went afterthe ones that were authentic,
the ones that were real, theones that the spirit was drawing
.
That's another thing is, youknow, if the if the the wrong
question is how do we attractpeople into the church?
Speaker 1 (23:49):
That's the wrong question.
What's the?
Speaker 2 (23:50):
right question.
I think what the right questionis is looking in our city,
looking in our workplace,looking in our schools, looking
all over the culture and sayingwhere is God already at work?
That's right, when is the HolySpirit already at work, and how
can I partner with what he'sdoing?
So, instead of doing that,we're creating our own kingdoms
(24:15):
and our own systems and invitingGod to fill and bless those
systems.
And you know what Many times hedoes work in those systems
because it's all he's getting.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Yeah, that's right, that's all he's getting.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
But he's waiting for the church to wake up and say
I'm done with building my ownkingdom and trying to invite you
into my little project.
And I'm looking around.
What did Jesus say?
Did Jesus build something andthen say, god, would you come
help me with this?
Or did he say I only do what Isee my father doing, right?
So Jesus was going about hisfather's business, and it wasn't
(24:49):
that he was creating somethingto attract people.
He was going about his father'sbusiness.
He was preaching the truemessage.
That was, miracles werebreaking out.
People were drawn to that.
That's right.
Think about this.
So we're drawing people to thechurch service building, but
(25:09):
what he was doing was actuallydrawing people to God.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
I still am stuck on what you said, like a deficient
Jesus makes deficient disciples.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yeah, you have to supplement, so the church needs
some blood work.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
The church needs a blood transfusion, a Holy Ghost
blood transfusion.
Yeah, that's crazy.
So what do we do to fix this?
Justin, like you kind of gaveus a little bit what you were
just saying just then, likegoing to where the people are
doing the message of Jesus, um,but but let's say there's a
(25:45):
pastor listening right now.
That's like oh crap, I'm aconsumer church and I want to do
something different.
Like what would they do?
Speaker 2 (25:52):
I would say it's a lot harder for someone in that
position, than it is a brand newbeliever that doesn't have of
these things and I thinkhonestly that's what holds back
a lot of pastors and leaders.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
The bigger following they have Not all, but most.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah, the bigger organization they have, the
bigger paycheck they have.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
There's a lot to lose .
Speaker 2 (26:08):
So I would say first of all, you need to count the
cost.
That's right.
You need to count the cost ofwhat you're actually getting
ready to say yes to and whetheror not you're willing to lay
everything down for Jesus.
Most people think most pastorsand leaders would think oh, it's
laying down my old life and sinand all of those things Like
yes, that is that.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
No, you need to lay down the fake kingdom you've
built up and called it Jesus'skingdom.
Like are you?
Speaker 2 (26:30):
truly willing to lay down your ministry?
Yeah, that's right, because wewatch a lot of people just grasp
onto it.
But what does Jesus say?
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Right?
Well, I just think of theTitanic just popped in my head
when you were talking.
Like that captain was unwillingto let go of his boat so he
died with the ship.
Like traditionalism,institutionalism, y'all.
If you don't see, it is dying.
Like what is the statistic,justin he's my number guy of
people leaving the church on ayearly basis Like they're not
(27:01):
leaving their faith, but they'releaving the institution by the
droves, by the millions, rightEvery year?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Oh, yeah, yeah, it was.
It was over a million in 2020years ago.
Yeah, yeah 2010.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Yeah, so it's like we're sitting here looking at
these numbers and, again, it'snot that Christianity is dying.
Now, if you look at the church,it might feel that way, like at
the church building institution, it might be like, wow,
christianity is slacking.
But no, people are actuallylooking for something real and
authentic that actually doescost them.
People are okay if somethingcosts them.
Think about it Like if you buya very expensive purse, you're
(27:33):
going to take a lot better careof it than if you bought, like,
a $12 bag on Amazon.
So if you're giving them $12gospel, they're going to treat
it like a $12 gospel.
But if you're treating it likea pearl that's worth everything
in a field that you sell allyour possessions to go harvest
it out of the field, what arethey going to do with that
gospel?
They're going to treat it likeit costs them everything.
(27:55):
So, I think first, like forpastors, they, just like you
said, like, need to evaluate notjust pastors, but all believers
.
Like, evaluate your life.
Like is there something in yourheart?
We watched the Forge thisweekend, so good, go watch it.
Crowd about 55 times right.
But the dude's in his room, he'sreading his Bible and his
discipler says, like you have tofollow Jesus, you have to lay
(28:17):
something down.
And he gave an example of whatthat was.
And so the kid goes into hisroom and he's sitting there and
he's praying.
He's like God, like what do Ineed to lay down?
And he looks over at his videosgames and he's like crap, no,
jesus, not my video games.
And then he's like I know, butit consumes my life, my time, my
mind, my all my energy.
So he literally trashed hisvideo games and got him out of
(28:39):
his life.
What do you need to get out ofyour life Like, is it video
games?
Is it materialism?
Is it comfortability?
Is it family?
Like, what is holding you backfrom truly?
Is it money?
What's holding you back fromtruly following Jesus?
Get it out of your life, startthere.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Yeah, yeah, I'm going to answer your question very
simply.
So, to the person, I'll startwith the person who doesn't have
all of that stuff you know, togive up, to the person just
either entering into their walkwith Christ, or to the person
that doesn't have a ministry orwhatever.
They're just everyday disciplesand stuff like that.
Number one it starts withhumbling yourself and
recognizing you don't have itall right and being willing to
look in the scriptures and seewhat was the?
What was it?
(29:21):
Where we need to start is whatwas the model that Jesus laid
out?
Speaker 1 (29:24):
for us yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Okay, not looking at the scriptures through the lens
of our traditions and what waspassed down to us.
But what did Jesus actually doand what did he prioritize?
That's right, and I think itstarts there, because I can sit
here and give you a list of whatthe best church model and
structure looks like, which it'snot about.
It's not about creating aspecific model that we can just
reproduce, because then it'llturn into idolatry.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
It'll turn into the same system that we're trying to
avoid.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
But when Jesus walked on the scene, what did he do
with the current church model?
Speaker 1 (29:53):
if you will, the synagogue model.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
He literally walked in.
It disrupted it and then helooked at the people that were
idolizing it and said this won'tstand Within this generation.
It will all be rubble Bedestroyed.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
That's right.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Not one left on another, andthen he called himself the
temple.
Why?
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Because he wanted to mobilize the church.
And what have we done?
We have literally rebuilt thestructures, the temple and the
religious system that Jesus toredown.
There was a reason he did that.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Well, I think back on a revelation I had one time I
was sitting and praying and thesong this Little Light of Mine
came into my mind and I'm like,am I singing this?
I haven't sung this song sinceI was a little girl and I'm like
this little light of mine, I'mgoing to let it shine.
Don't hide it under a bushel.
No, I'm going to let it shine.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Don't hide it under a bushel.
No, I'm going to let it shine.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
And as I'm seeing this in my mind, I had this
picture of the church buildinghad become the basket and the
lights were hidden inside thislittle building because we think
this is what church is, butit's actually not what church is
.
That's right.
We have to get outside of thebuilding and actually go let our
light shine to all the world,and so I think that's that's a
huge part of it.
Like, the church is where wecome together to be equipped, to
go out and do them to beequipped, equipped, equipped
(31:14):
y'all homeschool mom.
They're gonna be so smartanyway.
They come to be equipped andthen they end up going back out
into the earth to literallyrescue it for the kingdom of God
.
But that's not what we'reproducing.
So I just had this picture whenyou were talking just a minute
ago.
When we have a baby, we get anewborn baby and they're
(31:35):
completely and solely dependenton us for about 18 months,
around 18 months.
They're now walking well,they're eating solid foods,
they're learning how to eat bythemselves all these types of
things and we know in this dayand age, like a video game and a
screen is not what you want togive your 18 month old right
away.
You actually want to give themthings that build and develop
(31:58):
their skills, like toys thatactually help them have hand eye
coordination.
But what do we do as a churchas soon as we get a newborn baby
, we nurse them and then we givethem lights, camera, flashy
action and it's producing that.
People that can't even have aquiet time because their mind is
so overstimulated byconsumerism and the lights,
(32:19):
camera, action at church and thecharismatic speaker that gives
them a joke every like.
You know a couple lines and sowhen they get into the word of
God and getting into prayer,they don't even know how to pray
and sit for 30 minutes to prayor even read their Bible for 30
minutes, because they need to bestimulated all the time.
Like we wouldn't do it to ourtwo-year-old, so why are we
(32:41):
doing it to our spiritualchildren?
You know, like overstimulatingthem.
So I think, just simplifying itgo back, just read.
Go, you believers, if you livein America or in any form of the
Western world, even third worldcountries, now a lot of people
are learning how to read.
You know, if you have a Bibleand you can read it.
(33:02):
Read what Jesus did in the bookof Acts Did he ever build a
building?
Or even in the Gospels did heever build a building?
Did he ever say build a church?
No, he said come, repent,follow me, die to self, pick up
your cross and now, once you'vedied to yourself and you pick
your cross up daily, now go makedisciples.
And then you look at the bookof Acts and actually the church
was dispersed.
It never stayed in one building.
(33:27):
There was no such thing as amegachurch it could have easily
became that but because ofpersecution it was dispersed
among the whole known world atthe time and they went into the
homes, they made disciples andthe disciples stayed in
Jerusalem for X amount of years,not even knowing that the
church had actually been growing.
And they go to actually leavebecause they hear that, oh, the
things you taught while allthese people were here they're
actually doing in their townsnow that they're not here
(33:48):
anymore and they go to see andchurch has grown, but not
because they're buildingbuildings.
It's because they actually hadthe seed of God in them to go
out and make disciples andreproduce what they had received
.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
We got to do that.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
It's not that the it's not that the first century
church had it perfect.
So it's not like we takeeverything that they do.
No, you could see from, if youread from the beginning of Acts
to the end, where things changedand people don't recognize that
.
It's like yes, there'sprinciples that we can learn
from them.
The better thing to do is toread through it and look what
they were still doing by the endof the book of Acts.
Look how things were morphingand changing Like think about
(34:26):
the beginning of Acts and howtheir Jewish culture and what
they have understood theirtraditions, I should say caused
them to do.
It caused them to roll dice topick a new apostle right.
You don't see that continuing tohappen.
Right, they understood thatthere were different ways to go
about stuff.
And then you see later on wherethey're gathering together to
make a decision to you know howthey should respond to certain
(34:47):
problems in the church, andthey're coming together asking
the Holy spirit, figuring outways to do that.
And so you see it kind of morphand change.
But you know, a lot of times wedon't, we don't look at that,
we don't.
We don't actually look at that.
Look at their example and seewhat they did and ask ourselves
why they did what they did.
Right.
And so I would say, step one,even before we got into we can
lay in later episodes, get intospecific details of the fruit of
(35:10):
making these decisions and whatit looks like, but honestly,
number one is um is likerenewing your mind in this area.
Would you agree Like until weactually renew our mind in this
area and get into the word ofGod and see?
See it firsthand for ourselvesby taking off those religious
lenses we can't actually startto implement stuff.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Because guess what we'll do.
Well, it, like a magnet, willgo right.
It doesn't matter if you gotrid of your building to say
you're a pastor, you get rid ofyour building, you get rid of
all this stuff and you're likeyou know what?
I'm moving everything to ahouse.
Guess what you're going to dowithout renewing your mind.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
You're going to start preaching in your home right,
you're going to line up yourchairs.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
All of a sudden you're right back to what you
know, what's comfortable.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
You have to.
I'm even learning that now,like with being a homeschool mom
, like I've maybeovercomplicated it in the years
and the Lord's teaching me likesimplify, kind of unschool your
kids.
That doesn't mean I don't doanything with my children.
I still put a lot of effortinto stimulation of their minds
and helping them to learn ontheir own.
My goal now as a mom is not tospoon feed them information so
(36:14):
they can pass a test.
My goal is to teach them to behungry, how to learn and teach
themselves so that when they getout in the world and they're
not under mommy and daddy's roof, they know how to figure
something out on their own andnot listen to people's opinions,
you know, and they actually canhave thoughts for themselves.
And so it's the same for us,like we have to un-re-church
ourselves un-church ourselves,so that we can actually
(36:35):
re-church, you know, and like,actually do church the way it
was, because if you don't renewyour mind in this area, you'll
just go back to what is familiar, and we do that with everything
like dieting.
I don't know how to lose weight.
All I know is I need to starvemyself.
I starve myself and I gain itall back in 30 plus pounds, and
so I just do this yo-yo effect,because that's all I know.
You know it's the same aboutdieting on anything you believe.
(36:56):
If you don't change yourthought process in your mind and
your belief system around money, health, whatever, you go back
to what's comfortable and youend up broke or whatever the
case may be.
So you have to fully renew yourmind.
And fully renewing your minddoesn't mean you read something
over and over again.
Fully renewing your mind meansyou read it and you get the
knowledge in your mind.
Then you start to change theway you think about it.
You meditate on it, then youstart to change the way you talk
(37:19):
and then the actions willfollow to the mind and the talk
of what you're, you'reunderstanding, and once the
actions have changed completely,you know your mind is now
renewed.
Yep, so it starts with that.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yeah and no.
That's a great example becauseyou can.
It's like a little literally aparallel effect of how we can
look at the uh, how school began, the intentions of school when
it began and where it's come toafter it's been
institutionalized, westernized.
The government is takingcontrol of it, but we don't
realize.
There's a lot of people thatare looking at the school
(37:50):
systems and they can recognizethat that's right.
They're calling it out.
It's not working, but they'renot recognizing the same things
happening with the church.
Right, it's becominginstitutionalized and we're
doing all of those things,thinking that we're creating a
better system, and there's noroom for the spirit.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
It can't be spirit led because it's a system.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yeah, so just like we eventually.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Systems run without people.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Think about that, just as the school system
eventually leads the directionit does and then kicks God out
of it.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
I think the church is on the exact trajectory.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
And the scary part is is because it's the church
quote unquote a lot of peopleare not even recognizing it's
happening.
That's right, okay.
Book of Revelation when Jesusis standing at the door knocking
, he's not knocking on the heartof an unbeliever.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
He's knocking on the doors to the church saying let
me in, Let me in.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
So by our actions and our slow drift, eventually we
are taking over and building somany systems and structures and
programs that we no longer needthe Holy Spirit.
And when the Holy Spirit is notwelcomed, when he's not invited
, when he's not needed by ourwords or our actions, he steps
away.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
What is Jesus's warning to the church that won't
do what he's commanding them todo in the book of Revelation.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Well, he left the temple.
I mean, he left the temple.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Well, that?
And he says I will come to you.
Yes, Right, talk about thereturn of Jesus, I will come to
you and I will remove yourlampstand Cool.
Think about that.
Here's the scary part If youget to the place where you are
are running church, you aregathering as the church without
the Holy Spirit.
You won't even recognize whenhe's left.
(39:26):
That's right, Because youkicked him out years ago.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
That's right.
And, pastors, you cannot sitthere and look.
All my numbers are growing andthe money is up and we're doing
great with our tithe.
As your standard of testing thefruit of it, you actually have
to look at what am I reproducingin people, and are the people
I'm discipling making disciples?
Speaker 2 (39:42):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
You cannot look at the finances and how big your
congregation has grown.
Anyone can draw a crowd.
I can draw a crowd if I wantedto.
I got a spunky personality, youknow.
So I could draw a crowd.
But if I'm not giving them thereal Jesus, they're just going
to always come back to me andsit down with me to hear what I
have to say, because I'm spunky,charismatic and funny.
But and funny but.
(40:07):
Am I actually giving themsomething that they can take
outside of our relationship andgive to someone else that leads
them to Jesus and not to me?
Speaker 2 (40:10):
or to a building.
Yeah, that's so good.
And let's wind down with thisthought because I want to leave
people with something to thinkabout.
So we've said a lot.
We've talked about attractionalchurch or extractional church
versus incarnational right.
We're discipling people, we'rebringing them in, but they're
not losing their connection withthe world.
They're not in the world right,they're not acting like the
world Right, but the connectionrelationally is still there so
(40:33):
that they can influence theworld right.
That's right we want to sendthem back out as missionaries
into their culture, into theircity.
We don't want to put them in theChristian bubble, right.
So we talked about that.
You know, recognizing some ofthese things.
It starts with humility,repentance, recognizing I've got
it wrong and just simply askingthe question Lord, where did I
miss it?
What is church?
Beginning to read thescriptures with new lens?
(40:54):
New lenses, that's where itstarts.
And this is the thought that Iwant to leave people with.
You know, when we look atsuccess as a family, you realize
this.
When you start to get a littlebit of age and maturity on you,
your kids are starting to getolder and for a long time in
your twenties, maybe even yourthirties, you're thinking about
how you can become successful,even if it's for providing for
(41:16):
your family, Right.
But there comes this time whereyou switch over to this
generational mindset of now Wow,I see that time is it's not
running out, but it's like youknow you're getting there,
You're halfway through, Right,and you're like what do I want?
What is the impact I want toleave?
What do I want to, how do Iwant the generation behind me to
to have been impacted by me?
(41:39):
And so I think those are thetypes of questions we need to
start asking, uh, when we'relooking at how to, how to gather
as the church and the effectthat we need to start asking,
when we're looking at how togather as the church and the
effect that we want to have onthe people that we're discipling
.
Because if we're only and Ithink mainly we are, but if
we're only thinking onegeneration, then we're doing
good, right, we're for our ownsuccess, the success of our
organization.
But guess what's happening?
99% of the people that are inthe congregations.
(42:02):
They're not able to reproduce.
They're not equipped toreproduce.
They're 20, 30, 40 years intothe church and they don't know
how to reproduce.
They still have to bring theystill have to bring people to
mom and dad in order for them toto.
It's not even multiplication,it's just addition at that point
, Okay, so we're veryshort-sighted in the way that
we're thinking.
(42:22):
So I think, if we just thinkabout that, if I could leave you
with anything, think about whatnot would what would make the
most successful thing right now,right here and now, but what is
going to leavemulti-generational impact?
How can we not only multiply?
And when you think aboutmultiplication, it's about
equipping your disciples or thepeople you're discipling your
children and, like a realscenario, father and mother,
(42:43):
you're thinking about how youcan equip them to begin to
reproduce.
Because when you're, when you'regoing to be long gone by the
time that your familygenerational line you know in in
like physically your familygenerational line has, uh, a
thousand people in it right, thenew family you know, or?
whatever, and it's like we got abunch of boys so it'll happen,
right, why don't we think aboutthat?
(43:10):
Like the church, like with thechurch?
Yeah, because ultimately,what's going to happen is it's
going to look like we'veachieved less because we've
poured deeply into fewer amountof people, but a hundred years
from now, you could haveimpacted an entire continent.
Yeah, that's what we have tothink about.
What is going to give meexponential growth?
That's so good, because, notbecause I want exponential
(43:31):
growth or I want a big name formyself, but because it pleases
the Lord, yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
I'm so over.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Yeah, go ahead, john 15 talks about what he's called
you to do, and that is to bearmuch fruit, and fruit that
remains.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
That's so good.
Yeah, I'm over trying to likehave a bunch of numbers because
I'm learning more and more as Imature in the Lord that if the
world can count and measure mysuccess, god's not looking at
those numbers.
He's looking at the numbersnobody sees the lives that have
been changed that nobody knowsabout.
You know, so look for that kindof fruit in your life.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
That's right, and if you bear more of that fruit than
the fruit that people canactually see it's, it's probably
actually going to have muchmore of a deep effect impact and
it's going to point people toChrist more right Then that
superficial fruit that justbrings a lot of people looking
to you.
I wish we had more time to talk, but you know, uh, we, I think
we brought up this scripturefirst, first Corinthians.
(44:31):
Chapter two, where theCorinthian church was, was
dealing with the idolatry of manof people.
I follow Paul, I follow Apollos,I follow Jesus, you know.
And there was all this divisionand Paul said the reason it was
is because they were carnal andpeople were following after the
fancy ministries and the fancywords of people.
(44:52):
And that's why he said when Icame to you, I just brought
Christ and him crucified.
Like, even though I've got moreto say right now, I'm not going
to say it right now because Iwant you fully dependent on him
before I give you further wisdom.
That's so good.
Yeah, that's why we try to justkeep it simple.
I'm not going to say it rightnow because I want you fully
dependent on him before I giveyou further wisdom.
So good, yeah, that's why wetry to just keep it simple and
then, when you can grasp that,that, that simple foundational
life of a disciple, Then we'lltalk about the secrets God's
(45:15):
revealed.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
Then you can move on to those things.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
Yeah, that's so good, awesome so good.
But yeah, I've had a lot of funtalking about this.
I think I have a feelingthere'll be a connection in
episode four where we'llcontinue.
I've already got some things onmy mind of what I would love
some discussion on discipleship.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
What discipleship looks like?
Yeah, maybe some.
Just to give you a preview ofnext episode, maybe.
What does it look like to notbe self-seeking but to deny
yourself?
I agree we can get into some ofthose conversations.
So thank you guys for joiningus today.
It's been a pleasure and we'llsee you in the next episode.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Yeah, have a good day , guys.
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.