How To Plant Churches Like Jesus | #reChurch Ep. 11

Let's talk about how Jesus made and multiplied disciples. Hint: It's not like the current model.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
True repentance is.
A lot of people get us on this.
It is a change of mind.
But the Bible also says confessyour sins to one another.
Healing takes place Bringing itinto the light.
Yes, you're bringing things outof darkness into the light and
the Bible says when you bringthings out of darkness into the
light, it becomes light.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
The current traditional model.
There may be offshoots inprograms where people can go
deeper in Bible study, butgenerally the Sunday service is
a one size fits all.
That's where the major issuecomes in is you have believers,
you have non-believers, you havepeople that think they're
believers and people that knowthey're not.
You got all these people mixedinto one and you're trying to

(00:36):
speak one message to all thosepeople.
It does not work.
How do we gather them?
Because there's a bigdifference in gathering with a
group of non-believers versus agroup of people that are just
brand new, born again, versussomebody who's been in the
church for 20 years.
Those are three very differentscenarios.
You're not going to be able tohandle those groups the same way

(00:57):
.
Welcome to the ReChurch podcast.
If you're tired of business asusual Christianity and you're
ready to live just like Jesus,you found yourself in the right
place.
I'm your host, justin Knoop,and I'm here with my wife, my
princess of a wife, brooke.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
He only does this on camera.
Called me princess.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
I don't call you a princess in real life.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
Sometimes, but every time we're on here this is real
life.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
I do call you.
You are the princess, you knowit.

Speaker 1 (01:26):
I am the princess in the house.
I like your shirt.
Tell me about your shirt.
It's Georgetown.
That's where we're building ahouse, right now in Texas.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
Shout out to Georgetown.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
I know, that's why I wore it.
I'm like I'm a represent, I'm aTexan now.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
Here we are.
My buddy over at the Jesus isOffensive podcast.
This is his new merch, so checkthat out if you're looking for
some good merch from a goodperson.
Support a good work and yeah,so we're excited.
Today we're going to hit somepractical stuff.
It's a really good topic.
It's a really important one.
I noticed that when I came outof the institutional,
traditional mindset of church,one thing that really shifted
for me was the idea ofmultiplication and how that

(02:08):
works, so transitioning from anaddition mindset of how the
gospel goes out, how disciplesare made to a multiplication
mindset, if that makes sense.
So you're growing outward,you're not adding to and just
growing your personal ministry,your personal building.
Now we're going to talk alittle bit about that today, but

(02:29):
we're going to give.
Basically, we're going to godeep into three specific
examples, because we've noticedthat it really helps if you talk
about practical situations andexamples so people know how to
walk through those things.
That's right.
What we're going to discuss isI guess you could call it
organic church planting 101.
So if I have this group ofpeople that is in this stage of

(02:54):
their walk with Christ orthey're on their way to being
Christians, what do we do?
How do we gather them?
Because there's a bigdifference in gathering with a
group of non-believers that areinterested in Jesus but have not
actually committed their livesto Christ, they've not repented
from their sins and turned toChrist, versus a group of people

(03:15):
that are just brand new bornagain.
Right, Six months old in thefaith versus somebody who's been
in the church for 20 years isnow stepping out of the
institutional style of churchand now they're in an organic
setting.
Those are three very differentscenarios and you're not going
to be able to handle thosegroups the same way, even though
there's going to be some commonprinciples.
We want to kind of hit all ofthose aspects and walk people

(03:39):
through what it might look liketo successfully disciple those
group of people.
Each one of those might haveslightly different goals and,
more importantly, each one ofthose might have slightly
different barriers to overcomeor obstacles to overcome.
They will.
So does that sound exciting?

Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah, this is one of my favorite topics because this
is like what I did back home, socool.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
So let me hit the multiplication aspect real quick
.
Um, it's's, it's this.
This threw people off when wefirst talked about this, and

(04:23):
then we'll get into thosespecific thing.
And the way that we add, theway that we get members in our
church or our church grows, isby us inviting people in one at
a time.
They experience it and then,hopefully, they stay.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
Right.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
That's a one by one model.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
It's addition mode.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
I guess there are some benefits to it, but I think
there are way more negatives toit.
The benefits would be it's verysimple, it doesn't create a
whole lot more responsibilitybecause, it's almost like going
from kid number three to kidnumber four Right, as opposed to
a whole nother family starting.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
There's a whole.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Nother level of responsibility but the reach
aspect is so much greater isvery limited.

Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yeah, and so, oh yeah , limited if you add greater, if
you multiply yes, sorry yes,sorry.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
Sorry I might have messed up.
No, you said it right I addedsomething wrong, okay yeah.
So basically, uh say people,people come to us and they're
like, hey, can I just come toyour Sunday church gathering?
And we're like, yeah, I meanyou could, but that's not going
to be the most beneficial thingfor you.
And I'll give you an example.
You just met with a girlrecently from this area and we

(05:37):
were talking to her.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
We did our first baptism in Texas y'all.
It was Saturday, and we haveone more coming up, so that's
cool too.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
I know I almost, I'm almost tempted to get into
testimonies already just fromthis podcast.
Maybe we'll have to do a wholeepisode, the amount of phone
calls and texts and fruit.
Fruit is amazing.
Yeah, I'm so encouraged Allover the place, all over the
place.

Speaker 1 (05:59):
Different states Like people we haven't talked to in
12 years are reaching out andthey're like God's been showing
me this, you know the past yearor whatever and it's just been
really cool.

Speaker 2 (06:06):
It's so cool.
So just to encourage you guys,like there's so many people that
are on this journey, just godown to the comments and start
reading the comments.
So many people are on the samejourney different stages, but
going through a lot of similarthings and we can all learn from
each other, grow from eachother and understand that we're
not in this alone.
So that's right, it's one ofthe goals of this podcast.
But what was I talking about?
The multiplication aspect.

(06:27):
So in that example we couldhave said the typical person
would have said yeah, just joinus on Sundays.
This is when we meet, getplugged in and just kind of go
with the flow and you're gonnagrow, you're gonna be fed all of
that stuff, right, and then wecan train you to evangelize from
there.

Speaker 1 (06:44):
That sounds right.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
Now the difference is , what we advise is yeah, let's
connect, let's be friends, let'shang out, but don't come to the
gathering that we already haveestablished.
Let's start something new withyou Meaning if that's just one

(07:08):
person, let's start disciplingyou in your sphere of influence
and then try to reach yourfriend group.
That's right, okay, because,for example, in this exact
scenario, we don't have a widereach in Texas because we just
moved here five months ago.
She does.

Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yep, she's been here for four years.

Speaker 2 (07:20):
Right.
So why in the world logically,if we're trying to reach a large
amount of people would weseparate her from her sphere of
influence, bring her into oursand kind of put her in our
Christian bubble and discipleher within that, as opposed to
disciple her in her environment,kind of the Jesus style go to
the harvest right.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
Stay with them if they receive your peace.
Yep.

Speaker 2 (07:43):
And then reach those people, two things we talked
about.
One thing was typically, whensomeone comes into an
established meeting, they'regoing to be more passive.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
Especially if the Christians there are more mature
, it's going to be harder forthem to open up or utilize their
giftings or feel like they havea place.
Then if you just worked withthem and went into their sphere
of influence, they're going tofeel more they're the more
mature one, correct?
Like in their friend group andstuff, and so, if you understand
, in past episodes we talkedabout the goal of leadership.
The goal of leadership is notmediation, it's facilitation.

(08:19):
We're facilitating andutilizing our gifts to train
that person to do the ministry.
Are you getting this Like?
I'm going to say this one moretime, because the difference in
those two scenarios is usbringing a person in, using our
giftings to minister to thatperson, which is the typical
model, as opposed to us goingwhere that person is, using our

(08:43):
gifting to train them so theycan reach their friends.
Boom, addition, multiplication,so we can.
If you guys have questionsabout that, we can go deeper
into that, but what we reallywant to get into is those three
examples, and we're going tostart with number one.
The first example, if youremember, was starting a group
with non-believers.
Now, these are not uninterestednonbelievers, these are people

(09:06):
that are seeking God, butthey've not entered into that.
They're not born again yet.
They're not born again.
So what would you do with that?
You got a couple people likethat.
Or maybe there's just one personand they've got a couple
friends that are interested.
How would you address that?

Speaker 1 (09:23):
Well, I'm going to do two scenarios for this topic.
So this is talking about peoplethat are.
So you can disciple people toChrist and you can disciple
people in Christ, but theapplication and practicalities
are different, right?
Because if I'm talking to anunbeliever but they're
interested in the Lord, I'mdiscipling them to Jesus.
I'm not going to talk to themlike they're a believer, I'm not

(09:46):
going to hold them accountablelike they're a believer.
I'm just going to preach Christto them and salvation.
I'm going to address sin andI'm going to point them to what
gets them free from sin, andthat's the death of Christ and
that is being born again, right?
I?

Speaker 2 (10:01):
want to point out one thing real quick, just so you,
just so it's very, very clearfor the people listening in the
current model, the currenttraditional model.
There may be offshoots inprograms where people can go
deeper in Bible studies orspecific groups, but generally
the Sunday service is a one sizefits all program, that's right.

(10:23):
So that's where the major issuecomes in is you have believers,
you have non-believers, you havepeople that think they're
believers and people that knowthey're not believers.
You got all these people mixedinto one and you're trying to
speak one message to all thosepeople, right?
It does not work.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
Well, you can't give a filet to a two month old,
right?
You can't give mashed potatoesto.
You know someone has no teeth.
I mean you can't give a filetto a two month old, right?
You can't give mashed potatoesto.
You know someone has no teeth.
I mean you can't give a steakto someone who has no teeth, but
they need mashed potatoes.
You know you can't givesomebody who is really mature in
the faith and they'reexercising their gifts, you know
, a protein bar and thinkthey're going to be sustained.

(11:02):
You know what I'm saying.
They actually need nourishment,you know.
So a heftier meal of some type,which we both know like
practicing, is what truly is themeat of scripture, the meat of
what Jesus was feasting on whenthe disciples were like what you
been eating.
You know he said I'm doing myfather's will.

Speaker 2 (11:21):
My food is to do the will of my father, who sent me.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
So I think that we have to understand we can't like
a Sunday service is like kindof like, yeah, a one size fits
all.
And that doesn't necessarily.
That does not work.
It might work with your yogapants, but it does not work with
Christianity.

Speaker 2 (11:39):
Have you ever tried on one size fits all clothes?
It's either an exact match orit is not.

Speaker 1 (11:44):
Somebody else is not going to wear it.
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (11:47):
Who wears?
I mean, I could see a hat, butwho wears?
One size fits all clothes.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
Anytime I see that I would never even buy it.
It doesn't make sense.
It doesn't make sense.
But anyways, maybe if it waslike what do you know those
hoodies that are like blankets,oh Snuggies, oh Snuggies,
Snuggies?
Maybe if it was a Snuggie, Iwould never buy a Snuggie, but
no offense to anybody who buysSnuggies.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
Shout out to Snuggies if you want to sponsor this
podcast, 10% off.
Is that what they're called?
I feel like it's wrong, butthat might be what they're
called.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
Snuggies.
I think you're right, snuggies,it's probably wrong.

Speaker 2 (12:18):
People make fun of Okay.
Sorry, I got you way off track,but your example was.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
You had two different scenarios, yes, two scenarios,
no-transcript very interested,and it's just one person who's
very interested into like beingdiscipled into Jesus or to Jesus
.
That person I'm going to meetwith on probably a weekly, maybe

(12:44):
even a twice a week basis, justdepending on how hungry they
are and how really close theyare to surrender.
The closer they are tosurrender, the more time I'm
going to give them out of mylife, because sometimes seven
days apart from one another orsix days apart from one another
gives enough time for the enemyto start snatching seeds.
So I'm going to check inconstantly Not constantly, but

(13:08):
regularly, just through a textLike, hey, thinking about you,
praying for you, I'm going toreally cover them in prayer
heavily during that period oftime Because the spiritual
warfare around them is intense.
Y'all Think about, before youfirst fully surrender to Christ,
the term of events that tookplace in your life.
It was probably kind of crazy,I know.
For me it was.

(13:28):
So I will check in on them.
I'll meet them once or twice aweek.
I'll spend time with them.
I'll continue to hold themaccountable in the sense of
where are you at with Jesus, notlike you need to stop sinning
because they don't have the HolySpirit yet.
You know what I'm saying.
But continue to say like, hey,if you have that conviction,
this is God Just again trying tofacilitate them, to see how God

(13:49):
is drawing them to himself.
So let's say there's thatscenario where you have somebody
who's very, very interested.
Or what if somebody's just kindof interested?
They're not fully in, they'rejust testing things out.
I'll give them once a week,we'll meet once a week and as
they begin to stir up hunger,that time will be more and more.

(14:09):
And once they're born againkind of what we discussed
earlier and they're surrendered,they're born again.
I'll walk them throughrepentance, and repentance is
not me wanting to know all theirlittle secrets of sin.
I even tell them please don'tspell things out for me, because
that could take for hours andsome things like I just don't
need to know the details, youknow.
But just what do you need to besaved from?

(14:31):
Because everyone needs to besaved from different things.
We cannot do blanket prayerslike to be saved from different
things.
We cannot do blanket prayerslike Father, forgive me of my
sins.
That is not repentance.
True repentance is.
It is, and a lot of people getus on this.
It is a change of mind.
You just change your mind,which then changes your behavior
.
Yes, but the Bible also saysconfess your sins to one another

(14:53):
.
So if somebody's getting bornagain, they're becoming a
brother and sister in thatmoment and they need to confess
things.
Not because you need to knowthe nitty gritty, you don't need
to know the details, but theBible says healing takes place.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
Sure, you're bringing it into the light.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yes, you're bringing things out of darkness into the
light.
And the Bible says when youbring things out of darkness
into the light, it becomes light.
No longer can the devil plugyou with that thing anymore and
keep it a big, fat elephantinside, you know.
So we bring it into the light.
They confess, you know, andit's as simple as Lord.
I just repent from all idolatryand pornography and sexual

(15:24):
immorality, whatever that may be.
You know, again they didn'tspell it out Like on January 6th
I did da da, da, da, da, da da,unless God really tells them to
do that, because I've had somepeople that are like, nah, I
really need to like share withyou what happened that night
because it haunts me, you know,and they'll share then, but not
everybody needs to do that.
So you walk them through truerepentance, like confession of
repentance, um, and then, oncethey do that, you baptize them

(15:47):
immediately afterwards and youread with them Romans eight.
What does Roman eight say abouttrue?

Speaker 2 (15:53):
surrender, you don't wait until three months when
they've got enough people on thelist to baptize.

Speaker 1 (15:59):
No, I fill up my bathtub.
I mean, there was a season ofour life we were filling up our
bathtub, sometimes twice a day,you know, and stuff.
So we baptized them immediatelyand I walked them through
Romans 8.
I'm like this is not an inward,what is it?

Speaker 2 (16:14):
Talking about Romans 6.
Yeah, Romans 6.

Speaker 1 (16:15):
Sorry, this is not an outward expression of an inward
.
What is it Talking about?
Romans 6.
Yeah, Romans 6.
Sorry, this is not an outwardexpression of an inward decision
.
Like the church says, there'sno scripture that says it is a
prophetic symbol.
When it talks about a symbol,it's talking about something
that happened in Old Testament.
It's symbolizing something,it's quoting something that
happened and they're bringing itinto the new and they're like

(16:36):
like that was a symbol.
Now, when we do this, weactually meet Christ in his
death, burial and resurrection.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
Yeah, you're talking about 1.

Speaker 1 (16:45):
Peter yes.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
It uses the ark Noah's ark as a symbol of
baptism, not baptism as a symbolof something else.

Speaker 1 (16:51):
Baptism is not a symbol of something else, that's
right.
So when someone gets into thewater in Romans 6, I said 8,
right, I meant to say 6.
In Romans 6, it says that it'sthree things a burial, a bath
and a resurrection.
Right, you're burying the oldyou, so the old brook is dying
in this water right now.
And then it says not only isthe old brook dying when you

(17:14):
come up out of the water, you'recoming up in the very nature of
Christ Jesus.
And then it also says it'scleansing your conscience of all
iniquity, so your conscience isnow pure before God.

Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, For scriptural reference.
That's what 1 Peter says.
It is for people that get allworked up.
We're not saying water savesyou.
We're not talking aboutbaptismal regeneration.
But we're also not saying thatit's purely symbolic.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (17:39):
We're saying that the action of baptism is an action
where Jesus actually meets youand does something supernatural
in that place.
What does he do?
I'm just going to quote thescripture to you.
First, peter says that yourwater baptism is an appeal to
God for a cleansed conscious.

(18:00):
That's right, okay.
And so the picture we get outof the Old Testament is Israel
leaving Egypt, coming to the RedSea.
Red Sea splits.
They go down in what comesafter them, their old life Egypt
, egypt, which is symbolic ofthe old life.
Old life comes after them goesdown in the water with them, the
same way your old life goesdown in the water with you.

(18:21):
But who's the only one thatcomes up out of the water?
Israel comes up, god closes thewater.
The old life is gone.
They've been rescued at thatpoint, yeah, like Jesus is doing
that supernaturally in waterbaptism.
So we see a lot of people thateither skip or delay or push off
or don't.
They're not water baptized.
We see them a lot of timesstruggle with the old life

(18:43):
coming back.
There's stuff powerful.
We've seen demons manifest inthe waters of baptism because
they they understand.
I'm like most Christians don'tunderstand the power of water
baptism Demons do.
We've literally watched peopletremble and demons hold people
back from getting in the water.
I'm like, after seeing that,I'm like demons don't want you

(19:05):
to get in the water, Likethey're scared for you to get in
the water so bad that theymanifest and try to pull you out
.
And you're going to tell me thatit's just something that you
just kind of we do it becauseit's a little fun thing
Christians do.

Speaker 1 (19:17):
It's like get out of here and again.
We do not believe baptism savesyou.
We believe Jesus saves you.
Jesus saves you.
Jesus is the savior of theworld.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
And that's what the scripture says, that's what
first Peter says.
It says baptism, which nowsaves you, not by washing dirt
off your skin or your body, butan appeal for a cleansed
conscious.
But Jesus, it says, throughJesus, through the resurrection,
excuse me, that's right so.
Jesus saves you through theresurrection.
Baptism is the command, it'syour appeal to God for the

(19:47):
cleansed conscious.
So then you look in Romans 6,and she says it's a bath, a
burial, and a resurrection or aburial bath and resurrection.
I like to say it's a tomb in awomb.

Speaker 1 (19:57):
That's helpful.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
for me it's a tomb in a womb, according to Romans,
six.
So that's what's taking place.
I mean, there's so many, wecould do a whole episode on on
water baptism, but um and howit's, it's so neglected and
pushed off.
I'm just saying.

Speaker 1 (20:11):
I'm just saying if you look at that book of Acts,
that's the only place you seepeople converting from Judaism
or Gentile becoming born again.
Right, it's the only place yousee Documented conversion
experiences.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
Convergence, yes.
Post resurrection.

Speaker 1 (20:26):
Post-Christ, yeah, post-resurrection of Jesus.
You see, people responding tothe gospel is in Acts and I
think there's, like what 10accounts where you see sometimes
3,000, sometimes a wholehousehold, sometimes a whole
city, different things like that.
But what you see is every singleone of those accounts mentions
baptism, but not every singleaccount mentions praying in

(20:49):
tongues.
Not every single accountmentions even them confessing
sin, but baptism was mentionedevery time.
So I think it's more importantthan the evangelical church has
made it, but I think theCatholic church has abused it
and and created it that it savesyou in and of itself.

Speaker 2 (21:05):
They're both wrong.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
So you're baptizing babies and babies are now saved
because they were baptized.
So then, you have the.
Protestant side of things,evangelical, that turned too
hard to the left and they'relike it has no purpose or
meaning.
It's just what you do if youwant to.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
It's work that's wrong, or that's a work.

Speaker 1 (21:21):
Yeah, that's wrong as well.
The Bible, it's in every singledocumented one-again situation.

Speaker 2 (21:26):
I don't know.
I don't know for sure.
Maybe you're right that everysingle one of those it is.

Speaker 1 (21:31):
I've read them, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
But the greater thing is that when you see an urgency
, you see Paul going into thehousehold of the jailer when
he's released and baptizing themsome point between midnight and
the morning.
That's right, they were inprison at midnight.
He gets born again.
They go to his householdbaptize his whole household.

(21:54):
You see the I think it's theEthiopian eunuch who's like
there's water.
What withholds me from beingbaptized right now?
In the middle of the desert, allthese experiences, not only do
you see water baptism, but yousee an urgency to get in the
water.
And this is the last thing I'llsay about it.
If you study church history,you'll understand why things
went a certain direction.

(22:14):
Why was baptism de-emphasized?
Why was it?
Well, it was because, with thepopularity of the large
evangelistic meetings by peoplelike DL Moody and Billy, Graham
it would be very hard to baptize.
40,000 people, or however manypeople, came to his crusades,
and so they were trying tofigure out 40,000 people, or

(22:35):
however many people, came to hiscrusades, and so they were
trying to figure out what theycould do with all those people,
and so they began to replacethat with a repeat after me
style prayer.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
So, if you're wondering the history on things,
dl Moody came up with that andthen it was more popularized by
Billy Graham, the sinner'sprayer.
So water baptism gets replacedby the sinner's prayer and
eventually, because people lookup to those people.

Speaker 1 (22:59):
Like the sinner's prayer is only like a hundred
years old.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
Oh yeah, that it's not.
It's not not that old.
They start to implement it intheir church services and now we
don't know where to put baptism.
But if you look at thescripture, baptism was the
response.
It was part of the response tothe gospel.
So people responded to thegospel by getting in the water
and getting baptized and stufflike that.
So that's all we'll say aboutthat, and then we can jump back
into.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
So, yeah, so I will walk that person through, you
know, just helping them talk tothe Lord on what does it mean to
really turn from your sin, whatdoes it mean to be baptized,
and baptize them, and then I'mgoing to tell them like, hey,
you have to receive the HolySpirit, you know.
And so I'll lay hands on themso that they may receive the
Holy Spirit, and in that momentI trust that God is doing

(23:45):
something supernatural in theirlife, and then the fruit will
speak, does their life change,you know, and in this time we'll
do deliverance If the person'sready for that.
Some people aren't ready forthat right away.
Some people are like, get itout now, you know.
So it just depends on thesituation.
But yeah, so then I begin tomeet with that person regularly,
you know, and now that personis in Christ Jesus and now

(24:06):
they're a part of the body ofChrist Gosh.
We could do like four episodeson this topic, because I'm
thinking of so many things wecan talk about, but then it will
lead into other things, but solet's kind of stay there.
So so many things we can talkabout, but then it will lead
into other things, but so let'skind of stay there.
So this person now that'sdiscipling someone into Christ
Okay, and it could be one person, or you could have multiple
people kind of in the same place, coming into a place of

(24:26):
surrender and let's say, allthree of them get born again
within a month of each other,but none of them maybe know each
other.
You could start meeting togetherwith all three of them, because
they're in similar places forsure.
Or you can disciple all, if youhave the capacity to disciple
all three separately anddisciple them into their
communities of people.
So, okay, hey, you go, startsharing your faith with your

(24:48):
family, your friends, yourcoworkers, and if anybody shows
interest, let me know or I'll gowith you If you feel
uncomfortable.
Let them share their faith andI bet you two or three people
around them are going to beinterested and want to know more
.
So then you can go with them towalk with them and disciple
those people, or you can sendthem and, as they need help,
they just call you.

(25:08):
Because what I've noticed iswhen I get there, because I have
a lot of experience and I havea lot of answers, the person
doesn't want to rely on this newbeliever because they look at
them as like meh.
But really you just have to beone step ahead of the person
you're discipling, so thatperson's born again and they're
not, so you're one step ahead ofwhere they're at.
So sometimes they want tobecome my disciple and I'm like

(25:31):
no, no, no, no, my goal is todisciple Christina.
Justin said I need to change upthe name.
We have a Bobby Joe too that isa friend of ours and he's like
yeah, I'm not talking aboutBobby Joe and Argamini, but
Christina.
My goal is to discipleChristina, as then Christina
goes and makes disciples so thatpeople will come to her and she

(25:52):
can bear fruit, because Icannot disciple 15 of
Christina's friends when I'malso discipling other people.
It's going to be a much faster,healthier multiplication and
lack of dependency on me andgiving her something to do.
Christina responsibility in thefaith and now she can be
responsible to those people.
So I just help Christina asChristina pours out what she's

(26:15):
now received in Christ Jesus.

Speaker 2 (26:16):
Again, if it gets confusing for you, always go
back to the family model.
That's right, the family model.
What does it look like to raisea child and then, when that
child gets older, they raisetheir children?
What does your role look likeas grandma and grandpa, versus
just parenting?
There are scenarios, there areplenty of scenarios out there

(26:36):
where grandma and grandpa areparenting their kids' kids.
That's right, and it's not thetip.
It's not.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
It's not what you want, they don't bring.
They don't like you don't bringyour.
Well, some people may, but youdon't bring your kids to your
grandparents' house and say, hey, raise them and discipline them
for me, Now you do that part.
If that's happening, it meansthat there's something unhealthy
and there's something that wentwrong.
That's right, um, and we'retrying to reproduce healthy,
full term babies and notpremature babies.

Speaker 2 (27:03):
And I just want to make a quick just to let people
know um, we, we have a veryapostolic sway to our lens.
Every single person that'sgifted in different areas could
be fivefold ministry.
You got a shepherd or a teacher.
They're going to have theirsway Someone who's apostolic.
So we're always going to begeared towards and if you don't
like this, I'm sorry, but we'realways going to be geared

(27:25):
towards building healthycommunities and multiplying
outwards.
So the gospel going out.

Speaker 1 (27:30):
I think, too, like what you're saying about being
apostolic, though it's not justgeared towards communities and
healthy communities.
It's healthy foundations inpeople's lives.
That's why we always talk aboutthe gospel, y'all?
Because we do have thatapostolic slant in our lives.
We've been called to befoundation checkers.
So we hit the gospel so hardbecause we realize that we're

(27:50):
trying to disciple people whohave not even responded to the
right gospel and we're wonderingwhy they're not becoming mature
.
You know so, as foundationcheckers like we, you always
have to go back to the gospel.
So, like you're going to be,like you keep beating that horse
, you know, brooke and Justin,but it's because it's like it's
what God's called us to do is beis found foundationally, check

(28:11):
where the church is at andpeople personally, individuals,
um, so that's what we're we'rehere to do.
So, yeah, that is disciplingsomebody.
That would be your kind oftextbook scenario.
Again, be led by the Spirit.
But your textbook scenario ondiscipling someone to Christ
right Then now you have let'stalk about.

(28:31):
Well, I guess, yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yeah, we can talk about next topic.
There may be a situation whereyou're starting a group, so this
is kind of like church planning.
This is church planning theJesus way, just so you know, not
the institutional church way.
Yeah, so you may have anotherscenario where you meet a couple
people and they're already bornagain but they're brand new in

(28:56):
the face, so they don't have alot of skin in the game, but
they do want to gather.
They're on fire and you'remeeting with those believers, as
opposed to a group of maturebelievers.
What would that situation looklike?

Speaker 1 (29:09):
And what would you-?
So are you talking about peoplewho have been institutionalized
or have never really been inthe institutionalization?

Speaker 2 (29:14):
There's so many different ways that you can go.
Let's just say you have a mix.
Okay, so we have brand new babybelievers, but everybody in the
group is under six months old.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
In the faith, yeah, so brand new group of believers
six months old, in the faith.
Let's say some have beenchurched and institutionalized
like they were raised in church,but they didn't really respond
until six months old.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
That's a typical situation.
Yeah, Grew up in the church but, now have just really got born
again, born again.

Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, so they're going to have a little bit of
religion on them, a littleinstitutionalizational mindset,
but they're very easy todisciple because now the Spirit
of God is there and they're veryquickly going to see the
institutionalization, thefakeness of it and the lack of
um maturity that comes from it,the like, the issues they're

(30:03):
going to see it starts going on.
Yes, they're going to start,they're going to see that really
quickly and they're prettyeasily easy to disciple, um out
of that institutional placebecause, um, they're not uh
heavily indoctrinated really.
They kind of just went mainlybecause maybe their parents made
them go or whatever the casemay be.
So they're pretty easy todisable.

(30:24):
But you'll still smell a littlebit of stench of religion there
, but it burns off prettyquickly as they begin to really
walk with the Lord.
Those kinds of people, you'llsee them struggle to pray in
tongues sometimes.
You'll see them struggle towalk in the gifts, because a lot
of these people have left theinstitutional church and they
didn't even have never seengifts operate so they didn't
even know that was a thing.

(30:44):
So these people, they're onfire for the Lord, they have
hunger and passion, but theymaybe lack how to actually use
the gifts or use them properly,or even like lack using them at,
because they they're afraid to,because it's kind of new and
they've never seen it before.
But they have been somewhatchurched even though they
weren't born again yet.
So it takes them a littlelonger to like really like, take

(31:08):
the, the pick up the gifts andstart using them right.
It takes them a minute to getinto that, but once they get it,
they normally do really well,you know.
But it just takes them a minuteto get into that.
But once they get it, theynormally do really well, but it
just takes them a little longerto get started.
Now, if you're talking aboutsix-month-old baby believers
that have never been churched atall and didn't come from any
form of institutionalization orreligion, man, when the Holy

(31:29):
Spirit comes in, y'all watch out, because the amount of zeal and
power that these little babieswalk in and the faith is
absolutely phenomenal.
It keeps me stirred up.
You know what I'm saying?
Because they're seeing thingsfor the first time.
They normally receive the giftof tongues pretty quickly and
operate in it.
They'll see miracles, they'llsee healings, they'll see

(31:50):
deliverances, they'll see thingshappen and take place.
And I never put water or ablanket on their zeal.
I know when I first got bornagain, everybody would be like
you're just really zealous,you're just really zealous,
you're just really zealous.
Well, ask my friend.

Speaker 2 (32:06):
Jennifer, it'll wear out.
It'll wear out, yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
No, I'm still very zealous and if you read the
scriptures it says we shouldstay zealous.
But zealousness should thencome with wisdom, as you mature,
you know.
But the Bible actually, like,rebukes people who lose their
zeal.
So I'm sorry, you know, and Iused to feel people try to put
that on me, Like you're justyoung and zealous.

Speaker 2 (32:29):
This will die, you know?
Yeah, well, because they'reuncomfortable 100%, 100%, that's
exactly.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
And I look back and that's what I see Like they're
still lukewarm and complacent,you know.
So I just would throw the wetblanket off and my prayer would
be when I would get in the car,away from those people Lord,
never let my zeal go out, neverlet this fire burn out, or
you're challenged by a youngperson in the face of zeal.

Speaker 2 (32:49):
Yes, let it challenge you.
Okay, like I need to step it up, and I've been there.

Speaker 1 (32:55):
I've been there, I've been around new babies in the
faith and like they're making meuncomfortable and I'm like Lord
, I have, I have lost my passionhere, like re-spark that in me.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
You don't realize it until you're standing next to
something that's contrasting.

Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yes, that's right.
Um, so just humble yourself andrespond.
You know, don't be offended bytheir zeal, Let their zeal
restrike a zeal in you.
But you just now have wisdomthat maybe they don't have and
they're going to learn.
And they don't have to learn itovernight, they're going to
learn it.
But yeah, if you get somebodythat's not in religion, fresh
out of the world, never beeninstitutionalized, they really

(33:30):
get the gifts very quickly andit's like the Corinthian church.
They might use them.
Not right, but I do not spankpeople.
I just want to say shame on you,pastors shame on you pastors
who spank and criticize anddiscipline in harshness young

(33:51):
believers who have gifts and arenot maybe doing it exactly
right, because they have topractice somewhere they have to
try.
So when they miss it or theyabuse it, you lovingly correct
them and guide them to maybe howto handle that gift better,

(34:11):
right.
But if you smack them down andsay don't do that or kick them
out of the church first, they'regoing to run away from the
church potentially, or they'regoing to be hurt or they're
never going to use that giftagain because the last time they
used it they got bit.
You know what I mean.
So the body of Christ is aplace where they can safely
practice the gifts to where it'snot devastating.

(34:33):
That's where we tell peoplewhen they start in a community
like this is a place to practicethe gifts.
I'd rather you practice themhere than try to go out there
and do something and cutsomebody open with your new
machete that you got or your new.
Ferrari, run them over, you knowlike, practice them here and
then we'll teach you like howmaybe to do it in love or how
maybe to handle it differentlynext time.

(34:54):
But I'm never going to chastisea child or person for using
their gifts.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
And I want to clarify too when we say practice the
gifts, we're not talking aboutsome charismatic circles of like
close your eyes and justpicture a car.
What color is that car?
And this weird Christianfortune telling.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
We're not talking about that.
No, what we're talking about isyou're in a healthy environment
.
Sorry, I just cut you off.
Go, for there's people thatknow what is of God and what is
of the flesh and what is of thedevil, and we're in prayer and
somebody's like.

(35:30):
I keep hearing this over andover again, but I've never
prophesied in my life, this hasnever happened to me, or I have
a tongue and it feels reallyweird to do this right now.
I've never done this before,but I just can't get this song
out of my heart or this tongueout of my heart.
Then practice it.
Don't muster up something.
That's when you start to tapinto demonic things potentially,

(35:52):
but if there is somethingimpressed upon your heart, do it
.
You know what I mean.
Share it and let people test itand let us test it and work
together and be open forcorrection, but then also be
open that God might be speakingto you.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
This always got me.
You know people typicallycessationist stuff like that
people that are moreconservative would be like it is
not biblical to practice thegifts.
If it's a gift of the Spirit,it just comes out or blah, blah,
blah and it's like, yeah, butit's coming through a human
being, Right?
So the filter of our flesh isreally why we need to.

(36:28):
We need to practiceunderstanding if we're listening
to something that's fleshly orwe're listening to the Holy
spirit, and so you learn kind ofwhat the Lord um sounds like
over time.
But the funny thing is the samepeople that say you shouldn't
practice the gifts go to schoolfor teaching.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
And practice teaching in a school setting.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
And you hear, even people like Billy Graham and
stuff like that would preach infront of the mirror to practice
their gift of preaching andteaching.
That's right, it's like you'vejust got to understand.
You're doing it too, that'sright, it's all across the board
.
It's not about doing it or notdoing it.
It's about just doing it theright way.
That's right, that's right.

Speaker 1 (37:02):
Well, I think that's a really good point too.
To bring up is like um, whenyou, when you come into the
faith, like when you'repracticing these gifts on one
another, like it actuallyedifies you, you know, because
the person you're practicingwith or to is going to encourage
you.
And like, bring um, uh, bringloving correction to help you

(37:26):
grow in these things, forinstance, what Justin was
talking about, filtering itthrough a human being.
I feel like I'm very prophetic.
The Lord's given me thisability to discern and see into
things, or even see where thingsmay play out, how something may
play out.
And so I remember getting aprophetic word for someone and I
gave them the word.
This was years ago and theyreceived the word.

(37:49):
They were super excited aboutthe word, it was an awesome word
.
And a couple of years later itseemed like the word didn't come
to pass.
And they came to me and theytold me I was a false prophet
and I'm like, oh Lord, like Irepent, oh my gosh, like if I
did.
And I'm like, hey, I hear whatyou're saying, let me take it
before the Lord.
If I'm wrong, I'll repent, butlike, let him teach me in this.
So I took it before the Lord.

(38:16):
I'm like Lord, did I miss it?
Like, if I missed it, like I'llgo back to this man and say I'm
sorry.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
And the Lord said to me he was like no Brooke the
word and interpret it.

Speaker 1 (38:23):
Yes, your interpretation of the word was
off.
So when you gave the word, theinterpretation was your
understanding was so small Cause, again, I'd not been born again
very long.
I had very little lifeexperience and experience in the
body of Christ.
When I interpreted what Ithought was being said, it came
through my fleshly lens of whatI had experienced and understood
to be truth at the time.

(38:44):
That was not what God wastrying to say to this man.
So the word was actuallyaccurate.
My interpretation was offbecause, again, I'm filtering
through my lenses of how I seethings when God was trying to
teach me something and tell thisman something and I just went
and interpreted it and it wasthe wrong interpretation.
So now he's like you're a falseprophet because it actually
went the opposite way and I'mlike, well, actually, because of

(39:07):
my crappy lens and my flesh gotin front of it, I processed
that word to you when whatactually happened is actually
the word I gave you and he waskind of just looked at me in
silence and we just kind of hadto leave it there because it
wasn't the way he wanted to playout.
But it's actually like the mostfruitful situation ever.
It just was like different thanhe wanted it to look, you know.

(39:28):
So that's how you can practicethe gifts, but just be okay with
it.
The flesh can get in the waysometimes and we have to work
through that together.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
You mean, god's ways doesn't always look like our
ways?

Speaker 1 (39:39):
Yeah, no, we don't.
I've learned that fromexperience?

Speaker 2 (39:44):
no, I don't.
I've learned that fromexperience.
So what would you say is thegreatest barrier to you know, a
group of of fresh believers youknow you had mentioned, like the
benefits are, there's not a lotof old mindsets to renew or to
work through.
What would be some of thebarriers you might run into?

Speaker 1 (39:56):
Well, then you have zeal.
You know they're running fullblast and they they might hit
the wall on the on the way outthe door or hurt.

Speaker 2 (40:04):
you know or hurt each other's full thing.
That's right.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
Emotional there's emotions.
There's a lot of flesh stillworking its way out.
There's deliverance that needsto take place, you know I want
to read one scripture becauseit's helpful.

Speaker 2 (40:16):
Most people don't know of this scripture, but it's
in first John, chapter two, andhe says I'm writing to you,
fathers, because you know himwho is from the beginning.
I'm writing to you, young men,because you have overcome the
evil one.
And I believe he says I don'thave the rest of the verse here,
but I've written to you,children because, your sins have
been forgiven.

Speaker 1 (40:34):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (40:35):
And so he talks about three maturity levels.
Most people don't understand.
He's talking about the maturitylevels of the.
Christian, the brand new babybeliever, is very focused on the
fact that their sins have beenforgiven.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
Wow, my old life has been erased.
I'm a new creation in ChristMoving on into the maturity
level of the young man or theteenager in the faith who the
enemy is trying to come at veryhard, because he knows that he
still has a window to get themto turn back.
Yes, if he can.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
That's right Okay.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
So, in the same way that our teenagers are tested
with a lot of temptations thatonce we overcome as adults, we
may be tempted with those, buthe's not going to use the same
tactics on an adult.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
Once you become a mature father in the faith,
persecution is how the enemy anddistraction comes at you.
It's just different, yeahfather in the faith.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
Persecution is how the enemy and distraction comes
at you.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
It's just different.

Speaker 2 (41:28):
He's not going to tempt me with alcohol abuse or
things that I've overcome, butthat's what it says in there.
Young men, because you'veovercome the evil one, so you're
in this battle.
How you move beyond that youngman faith, that young woman
faith, is by overcoming theenemy.
How, biblically?
By resisting the enemy andsubmitting to God.
Once you learn to do that on aregular base again, what I'm not
saying is you're never temptedagain or you never have to

(41:48):
battle the enemy again, but youenter in this place in maturity,
where now it talks about endinginto fatherhood, motherhood of
the faith.
Your eyes get off of you andstart to be on the
responsibility of taking care ofother people.
And what does it say about thefather and the faith?
You know him, who is from thebeginning.

(42:09):
Well, what does that mean?
That means that you now have aperspective that is less.
It's just about me battling thedevil and overcoming the devil
and fighting sin and overcomingtemptation, and all this too, I
know God.
I know God, we've built ahistory together, we have a
relationship.
I understand, beginning to end,like, what this whole story is
about.
Your eyes are no longer inground level and you have that
drone aerial view.

(42:30):
You can see a wide scape of thedirection things are going.
So then when you start todisciple people and younger
people in the faith, instead ofjust having your eyes right here
looking at the single tree inthe forest, you can see the
whole forest and you can see hey, you're freaking out because
there's no water, but I can see200 yards away there's a whole
reservoir of water and you startto have a different perspective

(42:54):
of the Christian life.
And so if we can understandthose phases of Christian
maturity, then we actually knowthe direction of where we're
going and we know how todisciple people to that
direction.
We mentioned this multiplepodcasts ago and probably
mentioned in almost everypodcast.
The goal of discipleship ismaturity in Christ.
Paul himself says my goal is topresent you as a mature

(43:15):
believer to.
Christ.
If we're producing tons andtons of baby Christians that
never mature, then we arefouling at what we have been
called to do, especially asleaders and disciplers in the
church.
So I would say that, and sowe'll go ahead and get into our
third.

Speaker 1 (43:33):
Real quick.
I have one more thing I want tosay on this topic.
So once that those babybelievers, like the ones that
have come out ofinstitutionalization but are
just now really born again, andthe ones that are, you know,
never been institutionalized atall and are six months old in
the faith after, after they'vecome into this place of like hey

(43:55):
, I really want to like know theLord.
You go through biblicalliteracy, you read the new
Testament with them and you getthem to read through the whole
New Testament with them.
You know like take books at atime and study those scriptures
together, make sure theyunderstand the teachings of
Christ, make sure they know howto hear his voice, make sure

(44:15):
they understand it's throughJohn 15, abiding and remaining
that they will bear much fruit.
And once they have biblicalliteracy of the New Testament
Old Testament is important too,but like really understanding
the life of Jesus and havebiblical literacy of the New
Testament Old Testament isimportant too, but like really
understanding the life of Jesusand that biblical literacy in
that and they begin to obeythose things, then you start to
do life together and hang outtogether, test each other's

(44:41):
fruit, hold each otheraccountable, love one another,
submit to one another and oncethey reach maturity, your group
disperses and dissolves and youshould all be going to make
disciples.
So that one group died of fivebrand new baby believers, but
now all five have become maturein the faith.
It could take a year, it couldtake two years, it could take
five years.
However long that group needs,you'll know, and some might peak
to maturity quicker than others.

(45:01):
Release them, if they need tobe released.
They all peak maturity.
Now you have five healthy,mature disciples that are going
to go affect at least 10 peoplea piece, and now you have 50,
right?
Is that the right math?
I'm not going that way.
Now you have 50 people that aregoing to be affected and those
50 are then going to reach 10 apiece.

(45:21):
And now you have how many?
A lot, a lot.
It's 50 times 10.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
Not a math teacher.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
That'd be a hundred out of zero.
Yeah, I mean, that would be 500.
That'd be 500 people, yeah, inthe course of a few, a short
period of time, and they'remature.
That's the thing 500 maturedisciples in 10 years.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
That'll.
That'll change the world orless less.
You even notice how long thatwould take, difference between
500 babies and 500 mature adultsin real life.
So you think of the same thing.
We wonder why our our leadersin our churches are so
overwhelmed and over and boggeddown, it's because they have
thousands of babies that's rightand they're what do I do about
this?
We've got so many problems andso many issues.
Let's make more babies andlogically, the logical person

(46:12):
would say, yeah, we just want tocontinue preaching the gospel,
but if you're not caring forthose babies, it's dangerous,
like we all know.
Situations like that wherewomen keep having children, but
they don't take care of thechildren that they have and they
just keep having more children.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
You just reproduce broken people, correct?

Speaker 2 (46:28):
And so we would do ourselves a lot better if we
would actually take time totrain and mature those disciples
Um, and then over over a longtime.
That's the multiplicationprocess.
We would actually see morenumbers, because those babies
would now be mature enough tomake their own disciples,
instead of us just makingthousands of babies.

Speaker 1 (46:48):
That's right.
That's right, that makes senseOkay.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
Last scenario.
I want to rephrase it a littlebit because in the beginning I
said like a mature group ofdisciples.
But generally when you'retalking about older people in
the faith coming out of theinstitutional church, they're
not always mature in the faith.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
So you've got to humble yourself and realize that
a lot of people have been inthe church building for 20 years
, but they're not matureChristians.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
No, because they're not practicing what they've
truly been given Correct.
So remember Hebrews five talksabout what is a mature disciple.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
They're mature in Christian ease, but they're not
actually mature in practicingit's because you got gray hair
it.

Speaker 2 (47:23):
Yes, you could be.
Hello, you could be younger inage in a more mature Christian
than someone who is older thanyou in age.
That's right.
So the most beautiful thingI've seen is when older aged,
younger believers in the faithhumble themselves enough to
receive and learn from youngerbelievers in the faith that have

(47:45):
been walking thoroughly withthe Lord, yeah.
You see, just such an amazingfruitful blessing on their life
because God understands, likethe humility that takes to
listen to somebody younger thanyou.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
Yeah, we had a pastor come to our house.
This was probably what four orfive years ago that they came
and I first of all I didn't knowthey were a pastor when they
came and I was like hey, what doyou do for a living?
He's like I'm a pastor.
I'm like why are you at myhouse Like pastors don't
normally talk to me?
Um, cause we cast out demonsand we uh kind of preach heavy
on um what they're they get paidto do.

(48:17):
And he's like no, I'm veryintrigued by what you're doing.
And this man has got a master'sin theology, very smart man,
been doing church, he's been apastor for 25 plus years.
And I'm like what do I have tooffer this man?
He is way more versed than I am.
And so he comes and he's likeI'm hearing what you're doing.
And he makes the comment if Isee fire of the Holy Spirit

(48:43):
somewhere or in someone, I'mgoing to get as close as I can
and I'm okay if I get burnt.
And I was like, wow, shout outto my peeps, they know who they
are.
I love these people so much.
And he came to our home, heasked us questions and humbled
himself in such a way I even gota prophetic word for him.
That was very powerful and I'mpretty sure it came to pass,

(49:04):
because he told me it did, andit was just a really amazing
time to watch him and his wifehumble themselves.
And then they went throughdeliverance with us and just got
super radically free.
And then they invited us tocome preach at their church and
lost their had to leave theirchurch because the true gospel
was being preached and the trueJesus was being preached.

(49:25):
And now they're in their homejust making disciples, baptizing
people, praying for the sick,praying for demonized people,
and seeing God move in a mightyway.
And they'll call and ask usquestions, you know, and I'm
like again, who am I?
This man's could be my fatheralmost, and I mean he has girls
not far from my age and I'm justlike so humbled by that, you

(49:47):
know.

Speaker 2 (49:48):
Yeah, just to let people know like we love pastors
.
Oh my gosh, we love pastorsPeople might hear certain things
we say and think we're likeattacking pastors.

Speaker 1 (49:56):
We're actually going to have a few pastors on the
podcast.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:01):
We don't like the position.

Speaker 1 (50:04):
The abused position of pastor.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
The abused business CEO model.
Position of pastor.
We love the people.

Speaker 1 (50:12):
We love shepherds, though we love the gifting, the
shepherding and gifting is soneeded.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
And it's something that Neither one of us are very
shepherds, I'm not really goodat that, yeah, yeah.
But it's so needed.
It's just needed in the rightway.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
Yeah, removing the titles, the paychecks and the
position and just shepherdpeople.

Speaker 2 (50:30):
Watching people function in a shepherding
gifting outside of a stage andjust in homes and in places is
just beautiful and it's, it'svery needed.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
One of my best friends is a shepherd and I'm so
grateful for her friends as ashepherd and I'm so grateful for
her, yeah, so let's, uh, let'swrap up by talking about that
group of older disciples comingout of the church system into
the home.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
But these people have all been in the institutional
church for 10 years.
Uh, what does that group looklike?
What are the benefits, causethere are some, and what are the
obstacles?
Yeah, um, so that group looklike.

Speaker 1 (51:03):
What are the?

Speaker 2 (51:03):
benefits Cause there are some, and what are the
obstacles?

Speaker 1 (51:05):
Yeah, um, so that group.
Let's talk about the benefitsfirst.
So the benefits.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
I do want to touch on one thing real quick and that
is most people would skip oversharing the gospel with that I
still share the gospel with him.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
Like when that pastor came to my house, um, he didn't
get.
They didn't get deliverance thefirst time, it was the second
or third time we met.
The wife came first and I'mlike, hey, I'm going to share
the gospel with you.
And she's like, what?
And I'm like I have to.
I share the gospel with everyonebecause, again, I don't know
what you heard 20 years ago whenyou responded.

(51:39):
You could have heard just cometo Jesus and hope for the best.
Or you could have heard justcome to Jesus so you can get
your best life.
Or you could have heard come toJesus and you ain't got to
repent.
Or you ain't got to do nothing,just come to Jesus.
Or Jesus loves you.
But they never told you torepent, be baptized, receive the
Holy Spirit.
So I share the gospel always,no matter how old you are in the

(51:59):
faith, how old you are innumerical numbers, or how long
you've been walking this earth.
You're, how old you are innumerical numbers or how long
you've been walking this earth,you go and hear the gospel every
time.
So share the gospel with them,no matter how long they've been
in the church.
Share the gospel.
I can't say that enough.
So these people that have beenin church for 10, 20 years, we
preach the gospel to them.
If they've never been baptized,we baptize them.
If they've never truly repentedand they're still living in sin

(52:31):
, we walk them through truerepentance and hold them
accountable and baptize them.
Or let's say they do have allthose parts and they just know
something's missing and theydon't know what to do.
This is going to be yourhardest group to honestly
disciple, because they are themost institutionalized.
It's like trying take aprisoner out of prison for 20
years and put them back intosociety with zero warnings.
You know, kind of like halfwayhouse situation they're going to

(52:54):
be like what am I doing?

Speaker 2 (52:56):
No transition.
Yeah, it's very cold, turkey itis.

Speaker 1 (52:59):
It's a little shocking.
It's shocking for their system.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
You need a church anonymous.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
Yes, that's, that's hilarious.
That would be funny.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
Um, but it's a shock to their system.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
It's a shock to everything they've ever known.
Everything's now different andnew and they've got to literally
like it's harder to undo thingsand read, learn things than
just to learn things the firsttime.
So they're now unlearningthings.
They're uncomfortable.
It's like trying to start adiet for the first time, like if
you've been eating biscuits andgravy and sausage every single

(53:33):
day for 20 years and thensomebody's like, by the way,
that's a heart attack ready tohappen.
You need to eat.
You know some grains or somesome minerals, some fruits, some
vegetables, you know thingslike that that are really like
sustainable.
It's so hard.
The first the person's notgoing to desire it because it's
not what their taste buds areused to.
And then they got to relearnhow to think about food and that

(53:55):
relationship with food.
So it's the same way with theinstitution of church.
They have to relearn the waythey do church and it's very
hard for them and it could takethem six, seven, eight years to
relearn something.
So this group may mature slowlybecause you're undoing things

(54:16):
while adding new things to themix.

Speaker 2 (54:18):
I want to throw in on that.
One of the obstacles that I'venoticed is these people have
also they haven't hadrelationships outside of the
Christian circle they know in 15years.
So don't beat yourself up ifyou're 10, 20 years in the
institution of a church and youstep out and now you struggle

(54:39):
with reaching people for thatobstacle.
You step out and now youstruggle with reaching people
for the gospel, because you'renot in the same scenario as a
younger person who still hasaccess to a lot of non-Christian
relationships, right?
So don't beat yourself up,you're going to have the hardest
time.

Speaker 1 (54:53):
You're going to have the hardest time because your
audience is now just your churchfriends.
And now you're trying toconvince your church, religious,
institutionalized friends onwhat God's showing you and 80%
of them probably are going tothink you're crazy.
So now you feel like you'velost that community because they
now think you're crazy.
Maybe a few have got it and nowyou have this new community and
now you're and they're tellingyou everything you ever learned

(55:15):
was like is actually notbiblical and institutionalized,
and you're like so you're themost uncomfortable one, you're
the most stretched.
It's the hardest group todisciple.
But the one thing I do knowabout this group of people that
is really good is they'reamazing servers.
Normally they're huge servantsin the community.

Speaker 2 (55:32):
Strong character.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
Strong character is normally there and they're not
necessarily dealing withheavy-hitting sins anymore like
pornography, addictions orthings like that.
They're just having to relearnhow to actually be the body of
Christ, how to do churchproperly and how to be
evangelistic.
Now, now you have to go intothe world, into your workplace,

(55:55):
and actually share your faith.

Speaker 2 (55:57):
And sometimes these are the most frustrated people
with the institutional churchbecause they spent so many years
being deceived.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
And they feel like they've been bamboozled.
Yes, yeah, and so just walkingthem've been bamboozled.
Yes.

Speaker 2 (56:05):
Yeah, and so just walking them through that and
being like I know this sucks.
So there's a time of grievingof time lost.

Speaker 1 (56:11):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (56:11):
But also we've got to get over that and move past
that and be like thank the.

Speaker 1 (56:15):
Lord, that my eyes were opened.

Speaker 2 (56:18):
And now I can you know.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:19):
There it is.
Moses was ready, there it is,yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
They just have the hardest time in the sense of
like now they actually have togo practice their faith in the
work world.
And it's hard when maybe you'vebeen working at a job for 10
years and you've never sharedyour fate.
They just think you're a reallynice guy or a really nice lady,
you know, and now you're likeby the way, I've been a fake
this whole time.
Or, by the way, I had no andI've never shared it with you.
Can I talk to you about it,it's just harder.

(56:44):
It's harder.
So, yeah, and people are goingto think you're crazy but
possible.
We've seen it happen multipletimes and people become very
successful.
But those groups high character, high serving one another, deep
love for each other, becauseyou do have a true love for the
body and an understanding of itsimportance and its place.
But when it comes to the actualobedience of Christ on doing

(57:06):
the things of Jesus in themission of Christ, it's not as
natural for them.
But again, I've seen so manypeople overcome it and actually
do it and it's beautiful.

Speaker 2 (57:17):
But they can be the most critical though too.
You people can be the mostcritical.
High commitment yes, not asflaky, not as flaky Some younger
people, that's right.

Speaker 1 (57:25):
But yes, the most critical can get critical,
that's right because they, theyagain, you, just you just got to
get all the religion out of youand just be okay with yeah, so
this is real life and this is.

Speaker 2 (57:37):
We want to do this because it's like you may think.
You may think what you're goingthrough is not normal and, man,
I wish just like I got toexperience what Justin and
Brooke experienced and it lookslike everything's so fruitful
and amazing and it just works.
But these are all the obstaclesthat you have to overcome with
different groups of people anddifferent scenarios and stuff
like that.
We want to encourage you.

(57:59):
You can overcome that, that'sright you can grow through them
and when you grow through themnot just go through them.

Speaker 1 (58:09):
That's a good that needs to be on a t-shirt yeah,
grow through.

Speaker 2 (58:11):
We have lots of slogans we would when you grow
through, yeah things when yougrow through difficulties.
Uh, it builds your character itbuilds your endurance.
It builds all of those thingsthat make you more like jesus,
right maturing to be like jesus,and that's the end goal.
So, in all these differentscenarios, you just have to have
the perspective that all ofthese obstacles are going to
make me more Christ-like, but asthe discipler or the person

(58:34):
that's helping facilitate thecommunity.
We just wanted to give you somepractical examples of what
situations might look like whenyou're dealing with
non-believers versus newbelievers, versus mature
believers, because we wanted togive you uh most people coming
out of the institution,institutional church.
Their biggest obstacle is uhbiggest difficulty, especially

(58:54):
if you want to disciple othersor teach others.
The organic way of church is isum the responsibility of having
to help walk people throughthis and not wanting to just
give up yeah.
And so we want to encourage youwith those, the practical
advice One more practical thingabout those institutionalized

(59:14):
older folk.

Speaker 1 (59:17):
They, when the spirit really starts to move, they can
get uncomfortable and want tosystematize it or stop it
because it's uncomfortable.
And then maybe there's not apamphlet or a book on how to go
through it.
You know, um, don't do that.
That squelches the spirit.
Let the spirit lead yourcommunity.

(59:37):
Don't try to systematize yourcommunity.
Don't try to put programs inplay to make it feel more, more
safe.
Um, and when the spirit moves,like, really let him, let him
move and Don't try to putprograms in play to make it feel
more, more safe.
Um, and when the spirit moves,like, really let him, let him
move and don't try to shut itdown because you're
uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
So yeah, I mean that goes back to.
I think we talked about thatlast episode or two episodes ago
, when we talked aboutinstitutionalizing your house
church.

Speaker 1 (59:58):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
It's a temptation, and it's it's.
Everybody has that temptationthat has come out of the
institutional mindset.
But, like you said, if you'vebeen in it longer it's going to
be more good, Like if you'veeaten biscuits and gravy for 50
years it's going to be easier.

Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
Oatmeal might not taste so good at first.
Well, when you're put in,uncomfortable situations.
That's when you want to revertto what's comfortable and you've
got to press through and ittakes time.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
The longer you've been in it, the longer it takes
for you to build those newhabits, those new work, those
new faith muscles and stuff likethat.
So I hope this episode washelpful to you and practical for
you.
This is all out of scriptureand real life experience.
We've seen these things, we'veseen at work, we've gone through

(01:00:40):
these actual obstacles thatwe're talking about.
So we just want to give that toyou in hopes to help equip and
train you guys, uh, to reallysee people mature and become
more like Jesus.
So if you've got additionalquestions, shoot them down in
the comments and we'll do ourbest to either respond or talk
to them on future podcasts.
So, thanks again for joining us,thanks to my beautiful princess
of a co-host.

Speaker 1 (01:01:02):
King Justin, that's weird yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
We'll see you in the next episode.
Bye guys.