December 31, 2024 • 57 mins
In this episode, we sit down with Neil Cole, a leading voice in organic church movement, to uncover what it truly means to live out the Great Commission. Neil shares the life-changing lesson he learned from spending $100,000 on a church plant that quickly failed, and how that experience shaped his groundbreaking approach to discipleship. With decades of experience and transformative insights, Neil challenges traditional models and reveals how we can return to the simple, powerful mission Jesus intended. Don’t miss this conversation—it could change everything!
📚 Recommended Resources from Neil to dive deeper into Organic/Simple Church:
👉 Organic Church by Neil Cole: https://amzn.to/40MylbU
👉 Organic Leadership by Neil Cole: https://amzn.to/3UMxF2o
👉 Primal Fire (Book to be re-released - link coming soon)
Connect with Neil: https://starlinginitiatives.com/
✅ Follow Justin:
https://www.instagram.com/justin.knoop
https://www.youtube.com/@reChurchPodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We recruited people, we trained them, we sent them
off, we coached them.
We sent off a church planningteam, two full-time pastors.
We sent 35 people of our100-people church $100,000.
And in less than 12 months thechurch that we planted died.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
And I often tell people that was the best
$100,000 I ever spent, becausethere's a lot of people that
have dealt with hurt in thechurch and what does that look
like to love and forgivesomebody through that when you
still aren't in unity, movingforward, Say?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
I have lots of examples but maybe the best way
to point it out is in a marriageYou're going to step on each
other's toes.
You're going to have differentvalues and approaches to life or
ways of seeing things or waysof communicating.
That will be misunderstood Inour society.
We break up over that Divorce.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
But for those who choose not to divorce, what was
your process and what did Godtake you through to get to the
place where you're now at?
In that process, what did youhave to lay down?
What did he refine you on?
What did he correct you on?
Speaker 1 (00:56):
I've lived my entire Christian life.
I came to Christ when I was 20.
I started off on staff of alarge megachurch back, when
there weren't as manymegachurches as there are now,
and we thought we could do nowrong.
We thought everybody in theworld should learn from us.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
But Welcome to the ReChurch podcast.
If you're tired of business asusual Christianity and ready to
live just like Jesus, you foundyourself in the right place.
And today I'm here with mybeautiful princess of a wife,
brooke.
Brooke, can you say hello?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Hello.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I've always gotten to introduce you first, but she's
here.
But we've got one more guesttoday that I'm super excited
about and we have Neil Cole onthe podcast today, which is
amazing.
A couple of different ways Ican introduce Neil.
I can give you all his thingshe's accomplished and stuff, but
for me you know, I shared thiswith him recently in a time
(01:51):
where I didn't have anybody tokind of help us navigate through
some of the things we weretrying Jesus was teaching us and
we were trying to do, brookeand I, his resources, his books
were just so special to me andso I'm just super honored, neil,
to have you on the podcasttoday and for us to have a
conversation.
Thanks for being here today.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I'm glad to be with you guys.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, and so I was thinking about this when we were
getting started, when I wasthinking about some of the
questions here to ask you, andit hit me when I look back I
didn't realize that we'rehitting 20 years.
I'm not mistaken, since youwrote Organic Church.
Yeah, that's right, thatcorrect, yeah it's.
It's already 20 years since Iwrote it, 20 years since it came
(02:34):
out it's coming up yep, justcoming out, yeah, and so that's
kind of where I wanted to, um,start off with was seeing that
book and, and you know, I readit for the first time, I think,
in around 2017.
So that's still quite, quite aways after you originally wrote
it.
How do you see, from yourperspective, uh, the need for
(02:56):
the message of that book and therelevance of that book when you
wrote it compared to, kind of,the state of the church now?
Speaker 1 (03:06):
wrote it compared to kind of the state of the church
now.
Yeah, so I think it's alwaysbeen relevant because I think
the kingdom of God is meant tobe something that's simple and
organic and reproducible andlife-changing and relational,
but so I don't think that'sgoing to change.
When I wrote it, it came in theon the heels of experiencing it
all.
I don't usually publish a bookuntil I've done it and proven it
(03:27):
and actually trained others todo it.
Then I begin to write, andthat's true with organic church,
but I think it's probablybecoming more relevant now not
less, Because I think there's anew work that God's doing among
young people all over the planet.
I travel a lot, as you know.
(03:49):
I'm in a lot of differentplaces and everywhere I go,
there's a surge of young peoplethat are excited about Christ or
wanting Christ, but they don'twant church as usual, and that's
why this is becoming more andmore relevant.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yeah, I would agree I was looking at being the nerd
that.
I am just looking at all thestatistics.
Thankful to Barner Group.
I'm sure you're familiar with.
George Barner.
You may even know him and hisstatistics and stuff.
So I like to keep tabs on theculture and the response to
church.
We had an episode that we didrecently just, and it was so
funny because we recorded itbefore.
(04:29):
We spent time with you inHouston and you began to talk,
and about the current model ofchurch and and basically how we
multiply and how the currentmodel can't really it's not the
best model to fulfill the greatcommission, because it's it,
it's not set up to reach 100% ofthe population, right, right.
And so I was looking at thatstatistic and I think actually
(04:53):
Tony and Felicity Dale speakabout it in their book.
They said that the currentmodel appeals to about 30% of
the population, at least inAmerica, the, the traditional
church model, and so why wouldwe um, you know, approach that
in that way?
So I was.
I didn't know your answer tothat question, what it was going
to be about the relevance ofthis book, but I was hoping you
would say that because I knowfor me personally, it's as
relevant as ever.
(05:13):
Um, and and and is impactfulwhenever and we're seeing more
and more people in millennial uhuh age group and Gen Z that are
kind of waking up to thisreality.
They are sensing something,something is off, whether that's
just by observation or the HolySpirit kind of nudging them and
saying, hey, there's a littlebit more to this and a lot of
(05:35):
people just don't have languageand kind of that's.
What organic church did for mewas give me a lot of language of
what I was feeling.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Excellent, that's good to hear.
Yeah.
Even places like in South Korea.
There's just tons of newchurches reaching young people
that don't want to go to themegachurches and Seoul and South
Korea is the megachurch capitalof the world but they're just
not interested in that.
They're interested in the kindof things where you meet in
(06:02):
homes, you have relationships,you make disciples, you love
Jesus.
Yeah.
And that's encouraging.
I think the message of the bookis as relevant as ever.
Yeah.
I would change the title of onechapter.
Okay.
When I wrote the book, we werestill in a manhunt for Osama bin
Laden, and so I was writingabout six degrees of separation.
(06:25):
So in the chapter, the chaptertitle is called me and osama are
close because, I know a guy whoknows a guy who knows a guy who
knows a guy who knows whereosama bin laden is yeah well,
he's been captured and dumped inthe ocean, so that chapter
would be that's.
That's a change change?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Yeah, I was curious about that.
That was going to be one of myquestions.
Is there anything 20 yearslater that you would, you know,
say I might tweet that?
That is one, yeah, yeah.
That's an obvious one.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
I still like the chapter name, but as long as
he's no longer out there, itdoesn't mean it's not relevant.
Yeah, longer out out there, itdoesn't mean it's not relevant.
Yeah, um, you know what I woulddo differently now if I were to
write that book.
Now I've learned more depth ofthe things that I did write and
so I'd probably take things alittle bit deeper that's good
(07:19):
which comes with it.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
That's where um organic church part two comes in
okay book.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Well, that's where you do revised editions.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
That's right when you add the chapter.
Maybe that's in the works, Idon't know.
Yeah, no, no.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
I think one thing that would be really cool for
people to hear is maybe likeyour process of getting to
because you were a pastor forsome time at like a traditional
church setting.
What was your process and whatdid God take you through to get
to the place where you're now at?
And also in that process, likewhat did you have to lay down?
(07:54):
What did he refine you on?
What did he correct you on?
Speaker 1 (07:58):
I guess as short as possible, because I'm sure that
story could last a while, butWell early on, and I do not know
why this was instilled in me orhow it where it came from, but
I've.
I've lived my entire Christianlife.
I came to Christ when I was 20at university, but I've always
had this desire to finish well.
(08:20):
And so in order to finish well,you have to constantly be
learning.
If you stop learning, you stopgrowing, you stop becoming
someone who will finish well.
Finishing well isn't somethingyou do at the end of your life.
Finishing well is something youchoose to do every day of your
life.
And so because of that, I'vebeen in a process of constantly
(08:45):
learning and growing, and Godhas honored that by bringing
experiences into my life.
So I started off on staff of alarge megachurch back when there
weren't as many megachurches asthere are now, and we thought
we could do no wrong.
We thought everybody in theworld should learn from us,
(09:07):
thought we could do no wrong.
We thought everybody in theworld should learn from us.
But the senior pastor, who wason the radio every day and
writing books and very famous,left the church.
He left the church and thentook another church just 25, 30
miles away and our church wentfrom 3,500 to 600 in a year and
(09:28):
that other little church wentfrom 600 to 3,500 in that same
year and I began to realize itwasn't the ministry we were
doing, it was the personalitybehind the pulpit.
That was my first eye-opener tohey, this is not right.
And I became pastor of a churchfor about 10 years in a suburban
area and in that time Ideveloped.
(09:51):
I always had a passion formission, discipleship, and
during that time I was asked tolead church planting in Southern
California, arizona, for thedenomination I once was a part
of.
So with that we startedplanting churches.
What really we say?
Planting churches.
(10:14):
What we really were doing wasplanting worship services, but
we wouldn't use that language,we didn't know better at the
time.
No one did House church was notsomething anyone did, except
maybe in China or India Right,wherever there was persecution
but not in the States.
So we recruited people, wetrained them, we sent them off,
we coached them and we sent offa church planning team, two
(10:37):
full-time pastors.
We sent 35 people of our 100people church and $100,000.
And in less than 12 months thechurch that we planted died.
And I often tell people thatwas the best $100,000 I ever
spent, because it forced me togo back to the Bible and ask
what does it say about plantingchurches?
It turns out it never tells youto plant a church.
(10:59):
It tells you to plant thegospel.
It tells you to plant Jesus,and then Jesus said I'll build
my church.
Thank you very much.
You make disciples.
So it shifted everything for usand we began to just make
disciples and we developedsomething called Life
Transformation Groups whichmultiplied quickly and easily
(11:19):
and spread all over the worldactually read, all over the
world, actually.
And then I actually took achurch planter assessment to see
if I was a church planter and Ifailed the assessment.
It's a true story.
So I thought, okay, well, Iwon't be a church planter, I
will just resource those who do.
(11:40):
And finally I wrote a resourcecalled Raising Leaders for the
Harvest with Bob Logan, and thatwas a seminal publication.
It changed a lot for people.
It was probably the firstpublication where it said, hey,
(12:00):
we're not to make churches,we're to make disciples, and how
to do that?
Yeah, and that came out in 95.
Wow, wow, yeah, I was six.
You were six.
There you go.
That's so funny.
I was just a little older.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Yeah, just a little older.
Did you not read that, brooke?
No, yeah, is that part of yourcurriculum?
Speaker 1 (12:19):
That's so funny Raising leaders for the harvest.
When that book came out, godtold me to plant a church and I
said, no Lord, I can't, I didn'tpass my assessment.
So instead of striking me dumbor something like that, he sent
me back to the same guy toassess me and I took the
(12:40):
assessment a second time andit's one of the highest church
planter assessments I've everread, and I read a lot because
they were all going through mefor the church planting work.
So the good news is you getmore than one assessment in life
and hopefully you're improvingin between.
So then I trained a young man totake over the leadership of the
(13:00):
church that I was at, and aftera year of training I took my
family.
We moved to Long Beach to starta church.
We wanted to reach young peopleand that's always been my
calling in life.
I can't escape it we moved tolong beach so that we could be
in the city, because I'm anurban kid and so we could be
where there's lots of youngpeople, there's a huge
(13:22):
university and a huge collegethere, and so I could be by the
beach.
For obvious reasons likebaptism- right, yeah yeah.
So we moved to long beach,california, and, uh, we were
going to start a cafe andinstead, uh, god showed up.
We actually rented the spaceand had a whole team delegated.
(13:43):
We're we're going to make thecoolest christian cafe you could
do, but not too christian rightyou know, just subtle and then
God showed up in the meeting.
We all felt his presence and heasked a simple question why
start a coffeehouse?
Why not go to the coffeehousewhere they're already at?
And you know, as a strategy,his plan was a lot cheaper it's
(14:03):
cheaper to buy a cup of coffeethan a cafe Right, and more
reproducible.
So we did that.
We started going to a cafe andpeople started coming to Christ.
In fact, everyone in the cafedid.
And then we moved to anothercafe and that old one went out
of business.
We started seeing a lot ofpeople come to Christ, make
disciples, and we were baptizingthem almost weekly in the ocean
(14:28):
.
And every time we baptizedsomeone, someone else would jump
in the water and want to cometo Christ and get baptized,
weekly in the ocean.
And every time we baptizesomeone, someone else would jump
in the water and want to cometo Christ and get baptized.
And finally I said, okay, let'sbring.
We had enough musicians.
Now we could form a worshipband.
That's the goal of it all.
So we pulled everyone together,launched a worship service and
nobody came, Did that threetimes, nobody came.
(14:50):
Finally I said Lord, why is noone coming?
He says why don't you ask them?
So, like any good missionary, Iasked the indigenous people why
they didn't want to come to myworship service and they said we
love the disciple making, welove the house church.
We call it an organic churchkind of like you guys do, but we
(15:13):
don't see any need for thatthing, that event.
Wow.
And God was teaching us to bemissional.
That's why we're not going tobe attractional.
You come to our cafe.
Instead, we go to your cafe.
Yep.
And then he taught us to bedecentralized so that we weren't
saying everybody in ourmovement or church has to come
to the same event once a week.
(15:34):
So we ended up sending within ayear there were people in San
Francisco and Portland, oregonand Salt Lake City and Indiana
and Paris, france, and Marseille, france, and then granddaughter
churches in Chiang Mai,thailand, and Seattle,
washington, and it it becameclear that this was something
(15:54):
God was doing and we were justfollowing along and I'm glad we.
you know I don't think I'm allthat smart, but one of the
strengths I have is I'm willingto learn when things don't work
right and pay attention.
So, that's kind of how we gotthere.
We stumbled into it and itbecame launched a movement.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
That's so cool, Do you think?
Um, cause that's a powerfulstatement there, like learning
to recognize when things aren'tworking.
Um, I feel like in the churchat large, we kind of bang our
heads up against the same wall.
Um, do you think the reasonthat the church isn't
recognizing what we're doing isnot working is because we have
the wrong, we're measuring thewrong thing, or we have the
wrong goal, or why do you think,like we're just not seeing it,
(16:39):
we're we continue to putband-aids on something that
probably needs to be completelychanged.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Well, the problem is when you, when you measure the
wrong thing, then everything youdo is aiming at the wrong
target.
Yeah.
And so when the goal is to getmore people in the building
instead of transforming peopleoutside the building, then you
(17:08):
will do everything you can toget more people.
Jesus told the parable of thesoils.
He said there's four kinds ofsoils.
One of them never receives themessage, but there are three
that receive the message andonly one bears fruit.
There's one that's shallow soil.
They don't have enough.
It's a shallow commitment.
They just easily aremanipulated and they don't bear
(17:29):
fruit.
And then there's the ones thatare choked out by the worries of
life, the deceitfulness ofriches, the desire for other
things, and they don't bearfruit.
Only the good soil bears fruit.
Well, when you make churchnothing more than an event that
attracts people to come betweenthe hours of 10 and noon on
(17:51):
Sunday and that's all churchesThen you actually revel in
having more bad soil.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Yes, I guess, because that's what you're attracting,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
So the one who has the most bad soil wins.
And suddenly you go on the roaddoing seminars and writing
books about how to get more badsoil, and never is the church
actually bearing fruit.
It's never reproductive.
Fruit is always aboutreproduction.
The fruit of an apple tree isnot an apple.
The fruit of an apple tree ismore apple trees.
(18:26):
That's right yeah.
And so if you want a fruitfulchurch, then your disciples have
to make more disciples.
But that's never going tohappen if they're consumers.
And I think and this mightsound a little harsh, but one of
the reasons so many churchesdon't reproduce is god's smart
and he doesn't want more ofthem- wow, that's a good one.
(18:47):
They don have health.
We need to get back to healthinstead of measuring how many
bodies warm bodies are in thepews.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Yeah, no, that makes complete sense.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
You will find and we could talk about this in another
episode or something but eachof the five gifts of Ephesians,
4.11 has a different way ofmeasuring success, and all those
ways are right.
We are just dominated by onemeasurement, the numbers thing,
and that's kind of an evangelistcriteria and that's not to be
(19:23):
thrown out, but it cannot be thewhole thing.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
No, that makes more sense, because sometimes I feel
like it is that it's like well,it's either one or the other,
but we're just not taking intoconsideration.
Obviously you could havefruitfulness in that you can
have a large number of disciplesmaking disciples.
That would be good foreverybody.
But when you're just focused onone thing, no, that makes total
sense.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
And I've got to say this you don't want to kick out
anyone who's not good soil.
Jesus said love one another,and Jesus said love your
neighbor, and he also said loveyour enemy.
So I'm pretty sure we'resupposed to love bad soil just
as much as we love good soil,but the difference is we don't
put the bad soil behind thedriver's seat, where they drive
(20:10):
the way we do church, and I usedto feel that way.
I used to think we'd see 10people come to Christ.
We'd get all teary-eyed, we'dhave baptisms, everybody would
be excited, but six months laterthere's only two people that
are still there.
I would think I did somethingwrong and so I'd start to change
the way we do church to getthem to come back, and by doing
(20:33):
that I'm letting bad soildictate the way church is formed
, and that's what's happenedacross the West, where bad soil
is determining what church islike, and that's why we have
churches putting on shows andhaving good childcare and easy
parking and shorter sermons andmore stories and better music
that you like.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Good coffee shops.
Good coffee shops, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Bowling alleys.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Yes, arcades, we've seen that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
It's become a means, a place of spiritual goods and
services for people.
And then people walk awaythinking I didn't like the music
there and you know I didn'tknow the music was for you.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Right, that's so good , no, that makes sense.
I, um, there's something thatyou said I don't know where
you've said it, but I rememberyou saying it's really impacted
me and her in the way that we,the way that we look at
discipleship and knowing that,uh, you know, we only have time
to pour into so many people.
And what you said was, uh,don't and it seems
counterintuitive but don't,invest in potential, because
(21:38):
everyone has potential.
Invest where you have, whereyou see fruit.
And, um, I feel like that thatis in align with a lot of what
you were saying.
It made me think that, as youwere saying, that I'm like not
does not only does it attractbad soil, but seemingly, even in
our case, it drives out thegood soil.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
That's right it does well.
That's why they you know.
Let's say, 80 of the work isdone by 20 of the people you
know one quarter of the peopleare good soil and the rest are
not, and so you know.
Another thing we say is youknow, my lawn is made of
Augustine grass, and sometimes,you know, during droughts in
(22:16):
California, we don't water ourlawns.
And so it dies, and then youhave one spot of green.
Don't water the dead stuff.
Water the green spot and let itgrow.
So good, so look for the lifeand pour your life, your
resources, everything you havethere, and let it grow so good.
So look for the life and pouryour life, your resources,
everything you have there, andmultiply it, spread it, rather
than trying to resurrectsomething that's not alive.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
That is so good.
And it's so true to ourexperience I know, brooke, you
can speak for this as we foundourselves in the beginning
getting so worn out, chasingpeople that weren't interested,
and I don't know if you've saidor I've heard it elsewhere, but
like uh, uh, I've heard thepastor's job described as uh,
basically his job is to convincepeople who don't want to be
convinced, or motivated.
(23:00):
Motivated people and uh, it's,it's it.
It breaks my heart, honestly,for leaders and pastors and
those people in in in thoseplaces because places, because
they're fighting for that, andthen the people that are
actually hungry are gettingneglected because they're fine.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
You'd be surprised what people will do for Jesus
that they won't do for yourchurch's mission statement.
And so if we just let Jesus beJesus to the good soil, you know
, if you're not motivated byJesus, if the death, burial and
(23:39):
resurrection of this man of Godwho turned the world upside down
is not enough to motivate you,I'm pretty sure my sermon's
going to fall short.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
That's for sure.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
I'm not going to be able to compete with that.
So I stopped.
I stopped chasing people whoweren't motivated and I have had
people that I love dearly walkaway, but I let them walk.
And Jesus did the same.
The rich young ruler he says hereally loved that guy but he
let him walk away.
And I think we have to get tothe place where we can say he
(24:13):
who has ears to hear, let himhear, and not busy ourselves
trying to make people listen tothings, trying to conform
people's behavior to a certainstandard.
That is not the commissionJesus gave us, that is not what
Jesus died for.
That's not what he rose for.
There's more, and so the ideaof looking for the good soil and
(24:35):
running with that is a big partof my life.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
I think it's so counterintuitive to the culture,
though, especially like wherewe're at, you know, in the US.
I feel like, since we've beenestablished as a country, like
every year, it's like let'slower the standard a little more
so nobody gets left behind.
Let's, you know, lower thestandard even more so that
people all feel welcomed, orwhatever the case may be.
And I feel like we've created asociety now that everybody
(25:01):
feels like they should be babied, you know, or catered to.
And that's where I think wehave to realize the gospel is
not for catering to yourpreference, your needs, your
desires, but it's really youdying to yourself so that you
can actually be qualified forthe kingdom of God, and I think
that's what our culture hascreated.
(25:22):
So I think that's what'sreplicated in our churches now
is okay.
If the people aren't coming,where can I stoop to their level
?
Now, jesus stooped to people'slevels, did he not?
But he didn't lower thestandard for anyone, even the
ones he loved the most.
So I think that's such a goodpoint to realize.
I think that's where pastors are, why they're exhausted and
(25:43):
overwhelmed and frustrated, tobe honest, because we get to
meet a lot of pastors andthey're worn out.
There's no joy, they're notexcited.
I meet a lot of pastors andthey're worn out.
There's no joy, they're notexcited.
But I think again, going backto you know their livelihood is
attached to a paycheck.
It's really hard sometimes.
Or even just humblingthemselves and saying like hey,
maybe I'm doing something wrongis really sad.
(26:04):
But it's so good to hear.
Because do you feel?
I'm sure there's days you'retired, but when you see the
gospel work I've told that topeople so many times like you
can't convince me that Jesusdoesn't work.
I've seen it thousands of timesover that he transforms lives
from the inside out.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
And.
But if you don't see the gospelwork that's when you start
putting methods and models.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Yes, yeah, so yeah, well, you can feel that way.
I mean, you can give the gospelto a bunch of people and see no
one respond and eventually youstart to think is this actually
real?
And I always go back to onething it changed my life.
It worked at least once itworked for me, so I'm going to
(26:52):
keep with it, because it's doneeverything for me.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
That's so good.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
I always try to imagine and I know this is
imagination so this is not real,but I try to imagine the first
outreach committee meeting insome brick building somewhere
where they try to say we've gotto reach this community for
Christ, what are we going to do?
And somebody said let's invitethem to church, let's make them
(27:20):
get up on Sunday morning earlyand dress up and come here and
sing songs, love songs to a manthey don't know and have an
offering, and have them listento a lecture that's going to win
them to Christ.
Wow, I mean, who really wantsthat?
Yeah.
Sounds like college.
(27:41):
How did we ever get to the ideawhere that is the strategy.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
Yeah, wow.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Somewhere along the lines that has to change.
And then you end up with a.
I mean the idea of and thismight step on some toes, please
excuse me, it's meant in lovingjest, but we have bands that
rehearse for the service Can youactually practice worship?
(28:08):
I mean, what I mean by this isrehearse it so that you get
better at it, so that when youfinally actually worship God, he
might accept it Is that what'shappening?
Or are you actually worshipingwhile you're rehearsing?
And if so, why are yourehearsing?
Why not just worship?
There's this whole thing, and Ibegan to realize that when
(28:28):
bands rehearse, it's not becauseGod has such a high standard of
music.
And they've began to realizethat when bands rehearse, it's
not because God has such a highstandard of music and they've
got to meet that standard.
Yeah.
It's because the people in theaudience do.
Wow.
And I'm not sure that that'sworship.
Yeah.
Or if it is worship, it'sworshiping the wrong God and I
really think that these thingspeople don't ask these questions
(28:53):
, they just go along with it,and at some point I just began
to ask these questions and itjust sort of turned everything
upside down for me.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
When we first started our community back in North
Carolina, that was one of thefirst things the Lord said to us
was because we actually ledworship, we were one of the
first things the Lord said to uswas because we actually led
worship.
We were one of those and wecan't even really sing that well
or play that well.
But we got stuck in thatposition for a while and I
remember the first thing whenthe Lord told us to step out of
the institutional concept and gomore organic was to not do
(29:24):
worship at all for a while.
Musical.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Musical worship.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Yeah, he said to like we needed to actually detox
from worship being a song thatwe practice and rehearse but
actually worship being a life.
That was laid down, um, like asacrifice to God and obedience
to the Lord.
And we got a lot of kickback.
And we still have people thatare like, can we plan a worship
sesh?
And I'm like, oh, I just can't,I can't do it.
(29:48):
I have to.
I have to evaluate the.
Why do we feel the need to dothat?
I'm like I just can't, I can'tdo it.
I have to evaluate the.
Why do we feel the need to dothat?
I'm like God has angels singingday and night Hallelujah.
We're down here on a mission.
Let's actually obey Him withour lives and make that more of
a worship than three songs and asermon.
So that's one thing that peoplehave a very hard time is
(30:09):
removing worship to being whatpleases God, you know.
So I think that's a really goodpoint and it's kind of
confirming to me that like maybewe weren't 100% off on that,
you know, but that unchurchingprocess is so uncomfortable for
a lot of people when they'reused to three songs and an
emotional stir, you know, tofeel connected to God.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
There's something you said and this is in regards to
leadership, which I know we'llprobably talk about it another
time, but there's a statementyou made that that the church
leaders would be better off tosit at the feet of a farmer than
to study with a CEO?
Um, why can you elaborate onthat?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Well, there's no business model of church in the
New Testament.
There is no CEO type in the NewTestament, so what you do have
is a farmer went out to sow hisseeds.
That's repeated oftentimes.
(31:10):
Every analogy of church isorganic in nature.
Even when it says it's abuilding, it's made of living
stones.
So it's all organic in itsapproach and that's why I chose
the word organic church todescribe it, because it starts
with a seed.
(31:31):
It grows naturally from theinside out by replication of
cells.
And that's what the kingdom ofGod is meant to be.
So I think we could learn morefrom the farmer Our early days,
the training, Paul Kack was theteacher on our APES team and he
and I developed the originalmaterial together and he did his
(31:53):
PhD thesis on Wendell Berry,the poet farmer.
So there's a lot of influencefrom Wendell Berry and these
thoughts, and he was all aboutthe farm.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Yeah, interesting, that makes sense.
We, a lot of people, a lot ofthe of the, obviously I think
you know, at least on thispodcast, we we've actually
received a lot more positivefeedback than we thought um, but
a lot of the negative feedbackis similar to we'll go into too
much detail but similar to whatyou received in your talk, uh,
on houston, with in houston, uh,the kickback is, but I see god
(32:30):
working in this and so it's nota lot of like pointing to
scripture and saying like well,this is what scripture says, but
this has been my experience andGod is working in this.
Why would we disturb this?
Speaker 3 (32:42):
Why can't we do both?
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Yeah, kind of like okay, I see where you're coming
from, but why don't we just doboth?
You know what would be yourresponse to that.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Well, I don't know that.
We have had enough experiencein church world to evaluate when
God is actually working.
So for us, if people getteary-eyed or weep, then God is
at work.
Yeah.
But Paul writes there's tearsof repentance and there's tears
(33:13):
of sorrow, and they're not thesame thing.
Repentance is a change of mind,and when your mind changes,
your actions follow.
And if there's not change inyour life, if there's not
transformation occurring, I'mnot sure God is working.
Just because people are cryingor laughing.
But I fall into that same trap.
When I'm talking and suddenlyeverybody's weeping or suddenly
(33:36):
everybody's laughing, I feellike I'm doing the right thing.
I'm not sure that's actually it.
I think we don't measuresuccess in the seats.
We measure it on the streets,when we get out there and we
start seeing transformation ofhomes and neighborhoods, and
nations, then we know God's atwork.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
So I think.
So it's almost like the themeof what you're saying is number
one you know, a lot of this is aliving, breathing thing, it's
not something that you canconstrain and box in.
And number two, it's so funnybecause, you know, jesus taught
this little thing about upsidedown kingdom, and yet it seems
like everything you're talkingabout is upside down to what
(34:17):
we're used to in the world of ofof of church, and so we're
actually maybe where we need tostart, or where maybe people
need to start, is changing ourtarget.
Yeah and yeah, and you, you saya lot, you, you, you know, um,
(34:38):
a lot about, like even in your,in your, your, if you, if you
want to call it a definition ofof church, can you tell me what
that, what that definition youhave is?
Speaker 1 (34:45):
yeah sure so when I was in seminary, I was given a
definition of five things.
Sometimes it's nine marks orsometimes it's seven things, but
it but it's a list ofingredients, because actually
the Bible never defines churchRight.
Nowhere in the New Testamentdoes it define church.
(35:07):
It only describes it.
Right.
And when it describes it, itdoes it with snapshot pictures.
I was told it was when thebelievers gathered together
regularly and they considerthemselves a church and they
have qualified elders and theypractice baptism, communion some
(35:30):
would add church discipline,and they have an evangelistic
purpose and they preach the wordand they have sound doctrine,
those types of things.
Sure, and I began to look atthat and think you're just
making up ingredients.
In fact, nowhere in the Bibledoes it say you have to think
you're a church to be a church.
(35:51):
Right, even when you don'tthink you're church, you're
probably still church.
I mean, I would imagine thatparachurch organizations like
Crew or InterVarsity, theygather together, they worship
the Lord, they preach the gospel, they have communion.
No, they don't have communiontogether.
They don't baptize so, becausethey don't get wet and they
(36:11):
don't eat crackers and thimblesjuice.
They're not the church and Ijust don't think that God looks
down from heaven.
That's what he thinks.
I mean he sees his people.
So, and the worst thing aboutthat list is not what's on it,
but what isn't on it.
Jesus never made the list.
(36:32):
Yeah.
So I don't know how you dochurch without Jesus.
But the truth is, if you candefine church without Jesus,
then you can do church withoutJesus, and we have done that.
So my definition of churchbegins with the presence of
Christ.
Now I understand.
The Bible doesn't define it,but this is how I see it.
It's the presence of Jesusamong his people, called out as
(36:55):
a spiritual family to pursue hismission on this planet.
Yeah.
So it starts with the presenceof Jesus.
Now, if you look at thosesnapshots of church, church is a
body, church is a bride churchis a building, church is a
branch, church is a flock,church is a field, church is a
family, every one of thosethings.
(37:17):
If you take Jesus out, it allfalls apart.
So church is a body.
Well, what's a body without ahead, a corpse?
What is a bride that has nogroom?
A widow.
What is a building that has nofoundation Rubble?
What is a flock that has noshepherd Wolf chow?
(37:37):
I mean basically, once youremove the presence of Jesus
from your understanding ofchurch, you're dead.
What is a branch that has novine Firewood?
Speaker 3 (37:50):
That's so good.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
There's nothing to it .
So we start there the presenceof Jesus.
Call that as a spiritual family.
Now, family, I don't think, isa metaphor, it is the actual
truth.
It's the reality, it's the fullexpression of who we are,
because every book in the NewTestament describes the people
of God as family.
Yeah.
(38:12):
Whether it's God the Father, orwe are brothers and sisters or
we are the household of God,it's all family, so we are meant
to be a family together.
But if you did church I mean ifyou did family the way you do
church, where you see each otheronce a week you mostly look at
the back of your brother's headwhile dad preaches a message and
(38:36):
mom passes a bag to collectmoney and then you leave.
I know some people aren't suchdysfunctional families.
They may prefer that, but thetruth is that's not what family
is that's right.
Family.
You need to look people in theeyes.
You need to interact with oneanother.
In fact, one of the thingsthat's not on that list
(38:57):
describing church is any oneanother, and there are 33, I
think, unique individual oneanother.
Commandments in the newtestament, and not one of them
made the list.
Yeah, but we are also called tofulfill his mission on this
planet and typically mission isa subcategory of church.
Yep, it's.
It's a sub-budget and it's gotits own staffing or its own
(39:20):
people or its own committee,yeah, its own board, and it's
only one of the things churchdoes, but I think that's
misunderstanding it.
I don't think we have a missionto fulfill for god yeah I
believe god has a mission.
He's asked us to join him, so Idon't think the church has a
mission.
The mission has a church.
(39:40):
I've heard my friend AlanHirsch say that, so I want to
give credit to that.
Sure, but we join him in hismission.
His mission didn't start inActs.
His mission didn't start inMatthew.
His mission started in Genesis3, when he went out seeking that
which was lost.
And he has been on that missionall this time and the only
(40:04):
reason church exists is becauseof his mission.
If there was no mission, therewould be no church.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
So mission comes before the church.
Your missiology should comebefore your ecclesiology.
So I think that that's myunderstanding of church.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Yeah, that's so good because I feel like it's.
I feel like it probably makes alot of people uncomfortable,
but in the sense of it'sstripping everything down to
like, what are we actually doinghere?
What are we here for?
What does Jesus want us stillhere for?
Otherwise he would have justzapped us up the moment we said
yes to him.
There's obviously something usstill here for, otherwise he
(40:43):
would have just zapped us up themoment we said yes to him.
You know, there's obviouslysomething we're here for, and
what does it look like for us toto be the church and to gather
the church?
And the thing that's soencouraging to me and has been
so encouraging to me, is themore that, um, I learned about
it and I read scripture and Isee the book of acts the the
less um extra fluff I feelobligated to and the more
freedom it feels to just beauthentic with people.
We had a conversation the otherday, or Brooke was having a
(41:03):
conversation with a friend backhome in North Carolina and I
overheard her and she said youknow, can we just make disciples
, cause you're just dealing withstuff and people are, you know,
all this different thing.
Can we just make disciples?
Can we just love people andhave relationships with people
and stuff, and it's so freeingto me to hear this kind of
broken down, uh, in a simple wayit's.
It's simple in the sense ofit's, it there's.
(41:24):
There's not like so many thingsto learn and remember.
Simple in that sense, but, asyou know, like actually living
that out is probably moredifficult than the current form,
if that makes sense.
It takes more.
It takes more sacrifice.
Uh, especially relationally,based on my experience with
people like you have to getthrough things and stuff like
(41:47):
that.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
Justin's an introvert , so that's hard oh yeah, I'm an
introvert too.
Yeah, that's so funny.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
The thing is is uh, we've practiced this kind of
superficial Christianity for solong and it's been okay that if
someone offends you, you justdon't associate with them
anymore.
Sure.
If they step on your toes, ifthey betray you in some way, you
just never see them again.
You find a way to just avoidthem.
That is not what love is.
(42:16):
Yeah.
And so if we want to be a lovingpeople of God, then we need to
see what relationship is like onthe other side of betrayal, and
that can be a strongerrelationship when love prevails,
but we'll never know if wedon't venture there.
(42:36):
So there has to be awillingness to love people when
they hurt you, because that isthe gospel.
That is.
Jesus.
That's exactly what he did.
That is who he is.
We have to be the ones thatlove those who betray us, those
who turn us in those who deny uswith a kiss.
(43:00):
That's how we have to be, orwe're nothing like Jesus and
we're hypocrites to the world.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
That's powerful and I agree with that wholeheartedly.
What does that look like whenthere's situations Obviously
we've been through many, manysituations where people have
hurt or rejected or come againstus and stuff like that, in the
sense of, does that mean doinglife with that person?
(43:29):
Does that mean running side byside in ministry with that
person?
I don't know if you have anykind of specific examples of how
that plays out, because I knowthere's a lot of people that
have dealt with with hurt in thechurch, and what does that look
like to love and forgivesomebody through that?
Um when you still aren't inunity, moving forward, say in,
(43:52):
you know whatever that lookslike practically Right.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Well, I'm now 64 years old, yeah.
So, yes, I have lots ofexamples, not too many.
I'd want to put out on YouTube,sure, but maybe the best way to
point it out is in a marriage,you're going to step on each
other's toes.
You're going to have differentvalues and approaches to life or
(44:18):
ways of seeing things or waysof communicating that will be
misunderstood, that will betaken the wrong way, that will
cause hurt and pain that maylast for years and years, and in
our society, we break up overthat.
We divorce.
Right.
But for those who choose not todivorce, they have to work
(44:39):
through it.
And when they do work throughit, there's an intimacy that
comes on the other side, okay,that you can't manufacture with
flowers and candy.
It comes only through passingthrough the dark valleys
together and coming out on theother side.
(44:59):
So, yeah, I've had people hurtme or betray me or leave me
alone when I needed help and Ihave chosen I'm not perfect at
this, but I have chosen for someof those, in some cases, to
keep on loving them, keep onaccepting them, keep on walking
(45:21):
through life with them, and it'smade our relationship better in
the end.
And I don't guarantee thatpeople will respond well to your
love Jesus did not have thatguarantee but I do guarantee
that if you love those who donot love you, you'll be more
like christ and your life willbe more fulfilling yeah
Speaker 3 (45:44):
I think, going back to the example you're using
through marriage, you know, Ithink in corinthians it talks
about, you know, if anunbelieving spouse is married to
a believing spouse and theunbelieving spouse wants to go,
like let them go and don'tconvince them to stay.
But if they're willing to stay,like, be Christ to them is
pretty much what it's saying,and I think that's the way it is
(46:05):
in a lot of these relationships, like, if they're willing to
stay and work it out with you,work it out with them, move
forward, get to the other sideof the betrayal or the slander,
whatever the case may be, but ifthey're not willing to go, you
can't force them to stay either,and then that's between them
and the Lord.
So I think that's a really goodexample, you know, using that.
Like Paul says, be at peacewith all men.
(46:28):
As much as it depends on you,as you can be possible, yeah, as
you could do, that's good, sogood.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
Probably the last thing I want to get into before
we end.
This episode is something thatwe hadn't mentioned, and I think
it's core to what what organicchurch is, and and and getting
started in it is.
That is something that I'veheard you talk about a lot, and
that is the DNA getting down tothe DNA level.
A lot of people in our currentprevailing model will start at
(46:55):
the end.
You know, we'll start.
What do we need to do first?
We need to go into a city.
We need to start.
What do we need to do first?
Uh, we need to go into a city,we need to find real estate, we
need to get a building, Then weneed to get a leadership team
together and then we need to,you know, and so it's just
backwards.
So how would you say, um, the,the DNA works?
Uh, in in organic church.
And why is it important tostart at that level?
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Well, that's life in general.
I mean, all of us began as azygote, which was a cell that
was planted, that doubled anddoubled again.
That's where all life starts,that's where all multiplication
begins and that's what formsinto what we are now and our
offspring and their offspringafter them.
So to not think about the DNAis to try and clone somebody in
(47:48):
an unnatural form or create amonster like Frankenstein by
adding this arm to this body andthis head and suddenly thinking
it's alive.
Or another analogy I've usedoften is I live in California.
There's a place called Legolandand they have trees built out
(48:09):
of Legos.
Now they're not alive.
They don't bear fruit, they'renot growing.
They can provide shade, theymight be impressive to look at,
but they're not a living thingand you're just plugging things
in from the outside.
That's not how trees grow.
You start with a seed and inthat seed, if you open it up,
you're not going to see a tinylittle pine tree.
(48:31):
You're going to see matter thatcontains genetic material that,
once the outer decay decays andthe and it's buried, it begins
to sprout roots and it begins toshoot up a stem and it grows
into a tree and that tree willbear fruit.
(48:51):
That will then do the sameprocess all over again.
Yeah.
So that's why the DNA isimportant.
It's everything, in fact.
If you don't think about thedna and you don't do it right
and I don't, I'm not saying youdo the dna, the dna is something
that you can't create right youcan't do a sermon series on the
dna and suddenly everyone'sgoing to be healthy.
(49:12):
Um, the dna is divine truth,relationships and apostolic
mission.
I know it must be from Godbecause it spells DNA in God's
language, English.
King James.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
It doesn't translate.
It doesn't translate.
But you know, Jesus did.
He talk about genetics,Absolutely he did.
All the time he didn't use theword deoxyribunic nucleic acid
um, because that hadn't beendiscovered yet can you say that
in hebrew?
Speaker 3 (49:47):
I'm just kidding, I just did, okay, yeah that wasn't
english that
Speaker 2 (49:51):
wasn't english.
I heard you just spoke english.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
That's right but you know he does.
He did talk about.
He talked about fruit.
He talked about make the treegood and the fruit will be good.
Make the tree bad and the fruitwill be bad.
That's all genetics.
So he emphasized it a lot.
And those three things divinetruth, nurturing relationships,
apostolic mission, that's thegreatest commandment.
(50:14):
Love the Lord, your God, withall your heart, mind, soul and
strength.
Love your neighbor as yourself,that's the end.
And, great commission, go makedisciples.
It's that emphasized.
You have Paul talking about it.
He says there's three thingsFaith, that's our response to
truth.
Hope, that's our response tomission.
Love, that's our response torelationship.
So you see, throughout the NewTestament, when Jesus says I am
(50:40):
the way, the truth and the life,he is the way, that's the
mission, he is the truth, divinetruth, he is the life, he is
the interaction, the love forone another, the relationship.
This is the DNA.
When he says abide in me,that's connecting with divine
truth.
When he says you will be one aswe are one, that's nurturing
(51:03):
relationships.
He says you'll be my witnesses.
That's John 15, dna.
He emphasized it.
When he said my house shall becalled a house of prayer for all
the nations.
We are to connect with God inprayer.
We are a household, family, andwe are for the nations.
He emphasized DNA over and overand over again.
So, ultimately, jesus himselfis the DNA, so he is the word.
(51:29):
That's divine truth.
God is love, he is therelationship and he is the
mission, so he is the gospel,the living embodiment of Christ,
so of of who God is.
So if you have Jesus, in yourlife.
You have all the DNA and it justflows from that.
(51:54):
We leaders need to startshifting the way we approach
people and stop trying to putgood stuff in people and try to
get the God stuff out of them,because Jesus already deposited
in them the best thing in theuniverse and we think my book's
(52:15):
going to help them and that'sridiculous.
My sermon's going to make adifference.
No, try to think.
If you're a leader in thechurch with God's people, no
matter whether it's a missionagency or an organic church or
an institutional church.
Your role is to find out whatGod's planted in them and draw
it out.
And that is more organic.
(52:37):
That's find the DNA and let ithave its way.
Now, doing ministry without theDNA, I want to say it's hard
work, it's futile work.
It does not produce life, itdoes not produce fruit and it
will cost you everything.
It'll be expensive, it'll be alot of sweat and tears and blood
(53:01):
and in the end you'll havelittle to nothing to show for it
.
Yeah.
But if you just plant the rightseed and good soil, you don't
have to do much at all.
Right, it all does it by itself.
In fact, jesus told the parable.
The farmer sows the seed, hegoes to bed at night, wakes up
by day, the seed sprouts andgrows all by itself.
That's the Greek word atamate.
(53:22):
Just add water.
And it grows all by itself.
First the stem, then the head,then the full kernel in the head
and it's time for the harvesthas come.
The farmer doesn't have to singsongs or stand up and shout or
yell at it or motivate it with ameaningful story that makes you
(53:43):
cry yeah it just happensorganically from the dna on the
inside and that's that makes allthe difference you need to have
.
That's why the dna is soimportant in everything we do.
Speaker 2 (53:56):
Yeah, that is so good .
Um well, uh, we'll end here.
Uh, I'm just, I'm reallythinking about the people that
are listening and how they'vekind of reached out to us and
the the pattern of of wherepeople are at in there.
Why we love speaking to to thistype of person is because we've
(54:16):
we've walked through thatjourney, and that is the person
that is finishing watching thisepisode and light bulbs are just
going off.
And they're like, oh my goodness.
But yet that same person we'veheard time after time feels like
they're completely alone wherethey're at.
Maybe they try to begin thisconversation with the people
(54:40):
around them and they look atthem sideways like they're
absolutely insane, make themfeel like what they're thinking,
what they're doing, is eitherunbiblical or it's rebellious.
What would you say to thatperson to encourage them in this
particular season?
Speaker 1 (54:55):
Well, there's a reason why I came to do this
podcast with you.
It's because I've been waitingfor voices to speak to the
people who are disenfranchisedfrom the organizational church
but feel a love for Jesus, andthat's kind of.
Your voices are rising in thatworld and I'm getting old so I
(55:18):
can say some things.
I can be the gandalf thatstands up there and says you
shall not pass, but I'm not thearagorn anymore who's going to
be swinging the sword.
Yeah, and there's.
I've been waiting for thosevoices to arise and when they
rise I want to pour as much as Ican on that, because there's
going to be a new move of Godamong people and, unlike other
(55:42):
times in the past where it wasregional, like the Welsh
revival- or the great awakening.
It's going to be global becauseit's.
I travel all over the world andodd place.
I'm in Azerbaijan and there'sthese young people who just want
.
They're hungry for Jesus, yeah,they want him, and and they're
they're telling their friendsabout want, they're hungry for
Jesus, they want him and they'retelling their friends about
(56:02):
Christ.
They're baptizing theirdisciples and you give them just
a simple plan and they'll go doit, but what they don't want is
to stop everything and just goto church on Sunday.
And so I want to see a voice,many voices, rise up that say
it's okay, you don't have tofollow in line with what your
(56:24):
grandparents did.
You can do something fresh andnew in this day with Christ, and
you should.
And it's not something, in fact, it's not hard.
Organic is very easy, that'sthe whole point of the dna, it
does it all by itself.
The hard part is characterformation and persecution and
(56:46):
spiritual warfare.
That's hard, but the actualministry is easy, that's right
yeah, because you're not doingit.
You don't carry that on yourshoulders yeah so that part's
easy.
Sometimes it's not the learningof the new stuff that's hard,
it's the unlearning of the oldstuff that's hard.
Speaker 3 (57:04):
Sure, and that's what seems to be this podcast
addresses and that needs to besaid.
Speaker 1 (57:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:10):
Amen.
Well, Neil, I really appreciateyour time today.
I appreciate being here Just awealth of knowledge.
Speaker 1 (57:14):
I think I want to cry .
Speaker 2 (57:15):
It was so good, you know.
Just a wealth of knowledge, Ithink.
Speaker 3 (57:16):
I want to cry.
It was so good, so good.
Speaker 2 (57:20):
Yeah, yeah.
We appreciate you being here somuch and we're going to link
down below just some of yourresources and stuff like that.
I think that's probably thebest way to have people.
I'll talk to you afterwardswith what, what information you
want to put in there and if youguys want to want to find out
more you're interested in moreof what Neil's got going on and
(57:41):
the wisdom and stuff.
There's plenty of books andresources that he's written we
would love to connect you with.
So thanks again for your timetoday, neil.
Speaker 1 (57:48):
Thank you.
Awesome.
We recruited people, we trained them, we sent them
off, we coached them.
We sent off a church planningteam, two full-time pastors.
We sent 35 people of our100-people church $100,000.
And in less than 12 months thechurch that we planted died.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
And I often tell people that was the best
$100,000 I ever spent, becausethere's a lot of people that
have dealt with hurt in thechurch and what does that look
like to love and forgivesomebody through that when you
still aren't in unity, movingforward, Say?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
I have lots of examples but maybe the best way
to point it out is in a marriageYou're going to step on each
other's toes.
You're going to have differentvalues and approaches to life or
ways of seeing things or waysof communicating.
That will be misunderstood Inour society.
We break up over that Divorce.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
But for those who choose not to divorce, what was
your process and what did Godtake you through to get to the
place where you're now at?
In that process, what did youhave to lay down?
What did he refine you on?
What did he correct you on?
Speaker 1 (00:56):
I've lived my entire Christian life.
I came to Christ when I was 20.
I started off on staff of alarge megachurch back, when
there weren't as manymegachurches as there are now,
and we thought we could do nowrong.
We thought everybody in theworld should learn from us.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
But Welcome to the ReChurch podcast.
If you're tired of business asusual Christianity and ready to
live just like Jesus, you foundyourself in the right place.
And today I'm here with mybeautiful princess of a wife,
brooke.
Brooke, can you say hello?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Hello.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I've always gotten to introduce you first, but she's
here.
But we've got one more guesttoday that I'm super excited
about and we have Neil Cole onthe podcast today, which is
amazing.
A couple of different ways Ican introduce Neil.
I can give you all his thingshe's accomplished and stuff, but
for me you know, I shared thiswith him recently in a time
(01:51):
where I didn't have anybody tokind of help us navigate through
some of the things we weretrying Jesus was teaching us and
we were trying to do, brookeand I, his resources, his books
were just so special to me andso I'm just super honored, neil,
to have you on the podcasttoday and for us to have a
conversation.
Thanks for being here today.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I'm glad to be with you guys.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, and so I was thinking about this when we were
getting started, when I wasthinking about some of the
questions here to ask you, andit hit me when I look back I
didn't realize that we'rehitting 20 years.
I'm not mistaken, since youwrote Organic Church.
Yeah, that's right, thatcorrect, yeah it's.
It's already 20 years since Iwrote it, 20 years since it came
(02:34):
out it's coming up yep, justcoming out, yeah, and so that's
kind of where I wanted to, um,start off with was seeing that
book and, and you know, I readit for the first time, I think,
in around 2017.
So that's still quite, quite aways after you originally wrote
it.
How do you see, from yourperspective, uh, the need for
(02:56):
the message of that book and therelevance of that book when you
wrote it compared to, kind of,the state of the church now?
Speaker 1 (03:06):
wrote it compared to kind of the state of the church
now.
Yeah, so I think it's alwaysbeen relevant because I think
the kingdom of God is meant tobe something that's simple and
organic and reproducible andlife-changing and relational,
but so I don't think that'sgoing to change.
When I wrote it, it came in theon the heels of experiencing it
all.
I don't usually publish a bookuntil I've done it and proven it
(03:27):
and actually trained others todo it.
Then I begin to write, andthat's true with organic church,
but I think it's probablybecoming more relevant now not
less, Because I think there's anew work that God's doing among
young people all over the planet.
I travel a lot, as you know.
(03:49):
I'm in a lot of differentplaces and everywhere I go,
there's a surge of young peoplethat are excited about Christ or
wanting Christ, but they don'twant church as usual, and that's
why this is becoming more andmore relevant.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yeah, I would agree I was looking at being the nerd
that.
I am just looking at all thestatistics.
Thankful to Barner Group.
I'm sure you're familiar with.
George Barner.
You may even know him and hisstatistics and stuff.
So I like to keep tabs on theculture and the response to
church.
We had an episode that we didrecently just, and it was so
funny because we recorded itbefore.
(04:29):
We spent time with you inHouston and you began to talk,
and about the current model ofchurch and and basically how we
multiply and how the currentmodel can't really it's not the
best model to fulfill the greatcommission, because it's it,
it's not set up to reach 100% ofthe population, right, right.
And so I was looking at thatstatistic and I think actually
(04:53):
Tony and Felicity Dale speakabout it in their book.
They said that the currentmodel appeals to about 30% of
the population, at least inAmerica, the, the traditional
church model, and so why wouldwe um, you know, approach that
in that way?
So I was.
I didn't know your answer tothat question, what it was going
to be about the relevance ofthis book, but I was hoping you
would say that because I knowfor me personally, it's as
relevant as ever.
(05:13):
Um, and and and is impactfulwhenever and we're seeing more
and more people in millennial uhuh age group and Gen Z that are
kind of waking up to thisreality.
They are sensing something,something is off, whether that's
just by observation or the HolySpirit kind of nudging them and
saying, hey, there's a littlebit more to this and a lot of
(05:35):
people just don't have languageand kind of that's.
What organic church did for mewas give me a lot of language of
what I was feeling.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Excellent, that's good to hear.
Yeah.
Even places like in South Korea.
There's just tons of newchurches reaching young people
that don't want to go to themegachurches and Seoul and South
Korea is the megachurch capitalof the world but they're just
not interested in that.
They're interested in the kindof things where you meet in
(06:02):
homes, you have relationships,you make disciples, you love
Jesus.
Yeah.
And that's encouraging.
I think the message of the bookis as relevant as ever.
Yeah.
I would change the title of onechapter.
Okay.
When I wrote the book, we werestill in a manhunt for Osama bin
Laden, and so I was writingabout six degrees of separation.
(06:25):
So in the chapter, the chaptertitle is called me and osama are
close because, I know a guy whoknows a guy who knows a guy who
knows a guy who knows whereosama bin laden is yeah well,
he's been captured and dumped inthe ocean, so that chapter
would be that's.
That's a change change?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Yeah, I was curious about that.
That was going to be one of myquestions.
Is there anything 20 yearslater that you would, you know,
say I might tweet that?
That is one, yeah, yeah.
That's an obvious one.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
I still like the chapter name, but as long as
he's no longer out there, itdoesn't mean it's not relevant.
Yeah, longer out out there, itdoesn't mean it's not relevant.
Yeah, um, you know what I woulddo differently now if I were to
write that book.
Now I've learned more depth ofthe things that I did write and
so I'd probably take things alittle bit deeper that's good
(07:19):
which comes with it.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
That's where um organic church part two comes in
okay book.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Well, that's where you do revised editions.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
That's right when you add the chapter.
Maybe that's in the works, Idon't know.
Yeah, no, no.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
I think one thing that would be really cool for
people to hear is maybe likeyour process of getting to
because you were a pastor forsome time at like a traditional
church setting.
What was your process and whatdid God take you through to get
to the place where you're now at?
And also in that process, likewhat did you have to lay down?
(07:54):
What did he refine you on?
What did he correct you on?
Speaker 1 (07:58):
I guess as short as possible, because I'm sure that
story could last a while, butWell early on, and I do not know
why this was instilled in me orhow it where it came from, but
I've.
I've lived my entire Christianlife.
I came to Christ when I was 20at university, but I've always
had this desire to finish well.
(08:20):
And so in order to finish well,you have to constantly be
learning.
If you stop learning, you stopgrowing, you stop becoming
someone who will finish well.
Finishing well isn't somethingyou do at the end of your life.
Finishing well is something youchoose to do every day of your
life.
And so because of that, I'vebeen in a process of constantly
(08:45):
learning and growing, and Godhas honored that by bringing
experiences into my life.
So I started off on staff of alarge megachurch back when there
weren't as many megachurches asthere are now, and we thought
we could do no wrong.
We thought everybody in theworld should learn from us,
(09:07):
thought we could do no wrong.
We thought everybody in theworld should learn from us.
But the senior pastor, who wason the radio every day and
writing books and very famous,left the church.
He left the church and thentook another church just 25, 30
miles away and our church wentfrom 3,500 to 600 in a year and
(09:28):
that other little church wentfrom 600 to 3,500 in that same
year and I began to realize itwasn't the ministry we were
doing, it was the personalitybehind the pulpit.
That was my first eye-opener tohey, this is not right.
And I became pastor of a churchfor about 10 years in a suburban
area and in that time Ideveloped.
(09:51):
I always had a passion formission, discipleship, and
during that time I was asked tolead church planting in Southern
California, arizona, for thedenomination I once was a part
of.
So with that we startedplanting churches.
What really we say?
Planting churches.
(10:14):
What we really were doing wasplanting worship services, but
we wouldn't use that language,we didn't know better at the
time.
No one did House church was notsomething anyone did, except
maybe in China or India Right,wherever there was persecution
but not in the States.
So we recruited people, wetrained them, we sent them off,
we coached them and we sent offa church planning team, two
(10:37):
full-time pastors.
We sent 35 people of our 100people church and $100,000.
And in less than 12 months thechurch that we planted died.
And I often tell people thatwas the best $100,000 I ever
spent, because it forced me togo back to the Bible and ask
what does it say about plantingchurches?
It turns out it never tells youto plant a church.
(10:59):
It tells you to plant thegospel.
It tells you to plant Jesus,and then Jesus said I'll build
my church.
Thank you very much.
You make disciples.
So it shifted everything for usand we began to just make
disciples and we developedsomething called Life
Transformation Groups whichmultiplied quickly and easily
(11:19):
and spread all over the worldactually read, all over the
world, actually.
And then I actually took achurch planter assessment to see
if I was a church planter and Ifailed the assessment.
It's a true story.
So I thought, okay, well, Iwon't be a church planter, I
will just resource those who do.
(11:40):
And finally I wrote a resourcecalled Raising Leaders for the
Harvest with Bob Logan, and thatwas a seminal publication.
It changed a lot for people.
It was probably the firstpublication where it said, hey,
(12:00):
we're not to make churches,we're to make disciples, and how
to do that?
Yeah, and that came out in 95.
Wow, wow, yeah, I was six.
You were six.
There you go.
That's so funny.
I was just a little older.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Yeah, just a little older.
Did you not read that, brooke?
No, yeah, is that part of yourcurriculum?
Speaker 1 (12:19):
That's so funny Raising leaders for the harvest.
When that book came out, godtold me to plant a church and I
said, no Lord, I can't, I didn'tpass my assessment.
So instead of striking me dumbor something like that, he sent
me back to the same guy toassess me and I took the
(12:40):
assessment a second time andit's one of the highest church
planter assessments I've everread, and I read a lot because
they were all going through mefor the church planting work.
So the good news is you getmore than one assessment in life
and hopefully you're improvingin between.
So then I trained a young man totake over the leadership of the
(13:00):
church that I was at, and aftera year of training I took my
family.
We moved to Long Beach to starta church.
We wanted to reach young peopleand that's always been my
calling in life.
I can't escape it we moved tolong beach so that we could be
in the city, because I'm anurban kid and so we could be
where there's lots of youngpeople, there's a huge
(13:22):
university and a huge collegethere, and so I could be by the
beach.
For obvious reasons likebaptism- right, yeah yeah.
So we moved to long beach,california, and, uh, we were
going to start a cafe andinstead, uh, god showed up.
We actually rented the spaceand had a whole team delegated.
(13:43):
We're we're going to make thecoolest christian cafe you could
do, but not too christian rightyou know, just subtle and then
God showed up in the meeting.
We all felt his presence and heasked a simple question why
start a coffeehouse?
Why not go to the coffeehousewhere they're already at?
And you know, as a strategy,his plan was a lot cheaper it's
(14:03):
cheaper to buy a cup of coffeethan a cafe Right, and more
reproducible.
So we did that.
We started going to a cafe andpeople started coming to Christ.
In fact, everyone in the cafedid.
And then we moved to anothercafe and that old one went out
of business.
We started seeing a lot ofpeople come to Christ, make
disciples, and we were baptizingthem almost weekly in the ocean
(14:28):
.
And every time we baptizedsomeone, someone else would jump
in the water and want to cometo Christ and get baptized,
weekly in the ocean.
And every time we baptizesomeone, someone else would jump
in the water and want to cometo Christ and get baptized.
And finally I said, okay, let'sbring.
We had enough musicians.
Now we could form a worshipband.
That's the goal of it all.
So we pulled everyone together,launched a worship service and
nobody came, Did that threetimes, nobody came.
(14:50):
Finally I said Lord, why is noone coming?
He says why don't you ask them?
So, like any good missionary, Iasked the indigenous people why
they didn't want to come to myworship service and they said we
love the disciple making, welove the house church.
We call it an organic churchkind of like you guys do, but we
(15:13):
don't see any need for thatthing, that event.
Wow.
And God was teaching us to bemissional.
That's why we're not going tobe attractional.
You come to our cafe.
Instead, we go to your cafe.
Yep.
And then he taught us to bedecentralized so that we weren't
saying everybody in ourmovement or church has to come
to the same event once a week.
(15:34):
So we ended up sending within ayear there were people in San
Francisco and Portland, oregonand Salt Lake City and Indiana
and Paris, france, and Marseille, france, and then granddaughter
churches in Chiang Mai,thailand, and Seattle,
washington, and it it becameclear that this was something
(15:54):
God was doing and we were justfollowing along and I'm glad we.
you know I don't think I'm allthat smart, but one of the
strengths I have is I'm willingto learn when things don't work
right and pay attention.
So, that's kind of how we gotthere.
We stumbled into it and itbecame launched a movement.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
That's so cool, Do you think?
Um, cause that's a powerfulstatement there, like learning
to recognize when things aren'tworking.
Um, I feel like in the churchat large, we kind of bang our
heads up against the same wall.
Um, do you think the reasonthat the church isn't
recognizing what we're doing isnot working is because we have
the wrong, we're measuring thewrong thing, or we have the
wrong goal, or why do you think,like we're just not seeing it,
(16:39):
we're we continue to putband-aids on something that
probably needs to be completelychanged.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Well, the problem is when you, when you measure the
wrong thing, then everything youdo is aiming at the wrong
target.
Yeah.
And so when the goal is to getmore people in the building
instead of transforming peopleoutside the building, then you
(17:08):
will do everything you can toget more people.
Jesus told the parable of thesoils.
He said there's four kinds ofsoils.
One of them never receives themessage, but there are three
that receive the message andonly one bears fruit.
There's one that's shallow soil.
They don't have enough.
It's a shallow commitment.
They just easily aremanipulated and they don't bear
(17:29):
fruit.
And then there's the ones thatare choked out by the worries of
life, the deceitfulness ofriches, the desire for other
things, and they don't bearfruit.
Only the good soil bears fruit.
Well, when you make churchnothing more than an event that
attracts people to come betweenthe hours of 10 and noon on
(17:51):
Sunday and that's all churchesThen you actually revel in
having more bad soil.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Yes, I guess, because that's what you're attracting,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
So the one who has the most bad soil wins.
And suddenly you go on the roaddoing seminars and writing
books about how to get more badsoil, and never is the church
actually bearing fruit.
It's never reproductive.
Fruit is always aboutreproduction.
The fruit of an apple tree isnot an apple.
The fruit of an apple tree ismore apple trees.
(18:26):
That's right yeah.
And so if you want a fruitfulchurch, then your disciples have
to make more disciples.
But that's never going tohappen if they're consumers.
And I think and this mightsound a little harsh, but one of
the reasons so many churchesdon't reproduce is god's smart
and he doesn't want more ofthem- wow, that's a good one.
(18:47):
They don have health.
We need to get back to healthinstead of measuring how many
bodies warm bodies are in thepews.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Yeah, no, that makes complete sense.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
You will find and we could talk about this in another
episode or something but eachof the five gifts of Ephesians,
4.11 has a different way ofmeasuring success, and all those
ways are right.
We are just dominated by onemeasurement, the numbers thing,
and that's kind of an evangelistcriteria and that's not to be
(19:23):
thrown out, but it cannot be thewhole thing.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
No, that makes more sense, because sometimes I feel
like it is that it's like well,it's either one or the other,
but we're just not taking intoconsideration.
Obviously you could havefruitfulness in that you can
have a large number of disciplesmaking disciples.
That would be good foreverybody.
But when you're just focused onone thing, no, that makes total
sense.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
And I've got to say this you don't want to kick out
anyone who's not good soil.
Jesus said love one another,and Jesus said love your
neighbor, and he also said loveyour enemy.
So I'm pretty sure we'resupposed to love bad soil just
as much as we love good soil,but the difference is we don't
put the bad soil behind thedriver's seat, where they drive
(20:10):
the way we do church, and I usedto feel that way.
I used to think we'd see 10people come to Christ.
We'd get all teary-eyed, we'dhave baptisms, everybody would
be excited, but six months laterthere's only two people that
are still there.
I would think I did somethingwrong and so I'd start to change
the way we do church to getthem to come back, and by doing
(20:33):
that I'm letting bad soildictate the way church is formed
, and that's what's happenedacross the West, where bad soil
is determining what church islike, and that's why we have
churches putting on shows andhaving good childcare and easy
parking and shorter sermons andmore stories and better music
that you like.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Good coffee shops.
Good coffee shops, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Bowling alleys.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Yes, arcades, we've seen that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
It's become a means, a place of spiritual goods and
services for people.
And then people walk awaythinking I didn't like the music
there and you know I didn'tknow the music was for you.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Right, that's so good , no, that makes sense.
I, um, there's something thatyou said I don't know where
you've said it, but I rememberyou saying it's really impacted
me and her in the way that we,the way that we look at
discipleship and knowing that,uh, you know, we only have time
to pour into so many people.
And what you said was, uh,don't and it seems
counterintuitive but don't,invest in potential, because
(21:38):
everyone has potential.
Invest where you have, whereyou see fruit.
And, um, I feel like that thatis in align with a lot of what
you were saying.
It made me think that, as youwere saying, that I'm like not
does not only does it attractbad soil, but seemingly, even in
our case, it drives out thegood soil.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
That's right it does well.
That's why they you know.
Let's say, 80 of the work isdone by 20 of the people you
know one quarter of the peopleare good soil and the rest are
not, and so you know.
Another thing we say is youknow, my lawn is made of
Augustine grass, and sometimes,you know, during droughts in
(22:16):
California, we don't water ourlawns.
And so it dies, and then youhave one spot of green.
Don't water the dead stuff.
Water the green spot and let itgrow.
So good, so look for the lifeand pour your life, your
resources, everything you havethere, and let it grow so good.
So look for the life and pouryour life, your resources,
everything you have there, andmultiply it, spread it, rather
than trying to resurrectsomething that's not alive.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
That is so good.
And it's so true to ourexperience I know, brooke, you
can speak for this as we foundourselves in the beginning
getting so worn out, chasingpeople that weren't interested,
and I don't know if you've saidor I've heard it elsewhere, but
like uh, uh, I've heard thepastor's job described as uh,
basically his job is to convincepeople who don't want to be
convinced, or motivated.
(23:00):
Motivated people and uh, it's,it's it.
It breaks my heart, honestly,for leaders and pastors and
those people in in in thoseplaces because places, because
they're fighting for that, andthen the people that are
actually hungry are gettingneglected because they're fine.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
You'd be surprised what people will do for Jesus
that they won't do for yourchurch's mission statement.
And so if we just let Jesus beJesus to the good soil, you know
, if you're not motivated byJesus, if the death, burial and
(23:39):
resurrection of this man of Godwho turned the world upside down
is not enough to motivate you,I'm pretty sure my sermon's
going to fall short.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
That's for sure.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
I'm not going to be able to compete with that.
So I stopped.
I stopped chasing people whoweren't motivated and I have had
people that I love dearly walkaway, but I let them walk.
And Jesus did the same.
The rich young ruler he says hereally loved that guy but he
let him walk away.
And I think we have to get tothe place where we can say he
(24:13):
who has ears to hear, let himhear, and not busy ourselves
trying to make people listen tothings, trying to conform
people's behavior to a certainstandard.
That is not the commissionJesus gave us, that is not what
Jesus died for.
That's not what he rose for.
There's more, and so the ideaof looking for the good soil and
(24:35):
running with that is a big partof my life.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
I think it's so counterintuitive to the culture,
though, especially like wherewe're at, you know, in the US.
I feel like, since we've beenestablished as a country, like
every year, it's like let'slower the standard a little more
so nobody gets left behind.
Let's, you know, lower thestandard even more so that
people all feel welcomed, orwhatever the case may be.
And I feel like we've created asociety now that everybody
(25:01):
feels like they should be babied, you know, or catered to.
And that's where I think wehave to realize the gospel is
not for catering to yourpreference, your needs, your
desires, but it's really youdying to yourself so that you
can actually be qualified forthe kingdom of God, and I think
that's what our culture hascreated.
(25:22):
So I think that's what'sreplicated in our churches now
is okay.
If the people aren't coming,where can I stoop to their level
?
Now, jesus stooped to people'slevels, did he not?
But he didn't lower thestandard for anyone, even the
ones he loved the most.
So I think that's such a goodpoint to realize.
I think that's where pastors are, why they're exhausted and
(25:43):
overwhelmed and frustrated, tobe honest, because we get to
meet a lot of pastors andthey're worn out.
There's no joy, they're notexcited.
I meet a lot of pastors andthey're worn out.
There's no joy, they're notexcited.
But I think again, going backto you know their livelihood is
attached to a paycheck.
It's really hard sometimes.
Or even just humblingthemselves and saying like hey,
maybe I'm doing something wrongis really sad.
(26:04):
But it's so good to hear.
Because do you feel?
I'm sure there's days you'retired, but when you see the
gospel work I've told that topeople so many times like you
can't convince me that Jesusdoesn't work.
I've seen it thousands of timesover that he transforms lives
from the inside out.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
And.
But if you don't see the gospelwork that's when you start
putting methods and models.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Yes, yeah, so yeah, well, you can feel that way.
I mean, you can give the gospelto a bunch of people and see no
one respond and eventually youstart to think is this actually
real?
And I always go back to onething it changed my life.
It worked at least once itworked for me, so I'm going to
(26:52):
keep with it, because it's doneeverything for me.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
That's so good.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
I always try to imagine and I know this is
imagination so this is not real,but I try to imagine the first
outreach committee meeting insome brick building somewhere
where they try to say we've gotto reach this community for
Christ, what are we going to do?
And somebody said let's invitethem to church, let's make them
(27:20):
get up on Sunday morning earlyand dress up and come here and
sing songs, love songs to a manthey don't know and have an
offering, and have them listento a lecture that's going to win
them to Christ.
Wow, I mean, who really wantsthat?
Yeah.
Sounds like college.
(27:41):
How did we ever get to the ideawhere that is the strategy.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
Yeah, wow.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Somewhere along the lines that has to change.
And then you end up with a.
I mean the idea of and thismight step on some toes, please
excuse me, it's meant in lovingjest, but we have bands that
rehearse for the service Can youactually practice worship?
(28:08):
I mean, what I mean by this isrehearse it so that you get
better at it, so that when youfinally actually worship God, he
might accept it Is that what'shappening?
Or are you actually worshipingwhile you're rehearsing?
And if so, why are yourehearsing?
Why not just worship?
There's this whole thing, and Ibegan to realize that when
(28:28):
bands rehearse, it's not becauseGod has such a high standard of
music.
And they've began to realizethat when bands rehearse, it's
not because God has such a highstandard of music and they've
got to meet that standard.
Yeah.
It's because the people in theaudience do.
Wow.
And I'm not sure that that'sworship.
Yeah.
Or if it is worship, it'sworshiping the wrong God and I
really think that these thingspeople don't ask these questions
(28:53):
, they just go along with it,and at some point I just began
to ask these questions and itjust sort of turned everything
upside down for me.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
When we first started our community back in North
Carolina, that was one of thefirst things the Lord said to us
was because we actually ledworship, we were one of the
first things the Lord said to uswas because we actually led
worship.
We were one of those and wecan't even really sing that well
or play that well.
But we got stuck in thatposition for a while and I
remember the first thing whenthe Lord told us to step out of
the institutional concept and gomore organic was to not do
(29:24):
worship at all for a while.
Musical.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Musical worship.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Yeah, he said to like we needed to actually detox
from worship being a song thatwe practice and rehearse but
actually worship being a life.
That was laid down, um, like asacrifice to God and obedience
to the Lord.
And we got a lot of kickback.
And we still have people thatare like, can we plan a worship
sesh?
And I'm like, oh, I just can't,I can't do it.
(29:48):
I have to.
I have to evaluate the.
Why do we feel the need to dothat?
I'm like I just can't, I can'tdo it.
I have to evaluate the.
Why do we feel the need to dothat?
I'm like God has angels singingday and night Hallelujah.
We're down here on a mission.
Let's actually obey Him withour lives and make that more of
a worship than three songs and asermon.
So that's one thing that peoplehave a very hard time is
(30:09):
removing worship to being whatpleases God, you know.
So I think that's a really goodpoint and it's kind of
confirming to me that like maybewe weren't 100% off on that,
you know, but that unchurchingprocess is so uncomfortable for
a lot of people when they'reused to three songs and an
emotional stir, you know, tofeel connected to God.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
There's something you said and this is in regards to
leadership, which I know we'llprobably talk about it another
time, but there's a statementyou made that that the church
leaders would be better off tosit at the feet of a farmer than
to study with a CEO?
Um, why can you elaborate onthat?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Well, there's no business model of church in the
New Testament.
There is no CEO type in the NewTestament, so what you do have
is a farmer went out to sow hisseeds.
That's repeated oftentimes.
(31:10):
Every analogy of church isorganic in nature.
Even when it says it's abuilding, it's made of living
stones.
So it's all organic in itsapproach and that's why I chose
the word organic church todescribe it, because it starts
with a seed.
(31:31):
It grows naturally from theinside out by replication of
cells.
And that's what the kingdom ofGod is meant to be.
So I think we could learn morefrom the farmer Our early days,
the training, Paul Kack was theteacher on our APES team and he
and I developed the originalmaterial together and he did his
(31:53):
PhD thesis on Wendell Berry,the poet farmer.
So there's a lot of influencefrom Wendell Berry and these
thoughts, and he was all aboutthe farm.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Yeah, interesting, that makes sense.
We, a lot of people, a lot ofthe of the, obviously I think
you know, at least on thispodcast, we we've actually
received a lot more positivefeedback than we thought um, but
a lot of the negative feedbackis similar to we'll go into too
much detail but similar to whatyou received in your talk, uh,
on houston, with in houston, uh,the kickback is, but I see god
(32:30):
working in this and so it's nota lot of like pointing to
scripture and saying like well,this is what scripture says, but
this has been my experience andGod is working in this.
Why would we disturb this?
Speaker 3 (32:42):
Why can't we do both?
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Yeah, kind of like okay, I see where you're coming
from, but why don't we just doboth?
You know what would be yourresponse to that.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Well, I don't know that.
We have had enough experiencein church world to evaluate when
God is actually working.
So for us, if people getteary-eyed or weep, then God is
at work.
Yeah.
But Paul writes there's tearsof repentance and there's tears
(33:13):
of sorrow, and they're not thesame thing.
Repentance is a change of mind,and when your mind changes,
your actions follow.
And if there's not change inyour life, if there's not
transformation occurring, I'mnot sure God is working.
Just because people are cryingor laughing.
But I fall into that same trap.
When I'm talking and suddenlyeverybody's weeping or suddenly
(33:36):
everybody's laughing, I feellike I'm doing the right thing.
I'm not sure that's actually it.
I think we don't measuresuccess in the seats.
We measure it on the streets,when we get out there and we
start seeing transformation ofhomes and neighborhoods, and
nations, then we know God's atwork.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
So I think.
So it's almost like the themeof what you're saying is number
one you know, a lot of this is aliving, breathing thing, it's
not something that you canconstrain and box in.
And number two, it's so funnybecause, you know, jesus taught
this little thing about upsidedown kingdom, and yet it seems
like everything you're talkingabout is upside down to what
(34:17):
we're used to in the world of ofof of church, and so we're
actually maybe where we need tostart, or where maybe people
need to start, is changing ourtarget.
Yeah and yeah, and you, you saya lot, you, you, you know, um,
(34:38):
a lot about, like even in your,in your, your, if you, if you
want to call it a definition ofof church, can you tell me what
that, what that definition youhave is?
Speaker 1 (34:45):
yeah sure so when I was in seminary, I was given a
definition of five things.
Sometimes it's nine marks orsometimes it's seven things, but
it but it's a list ofingredients, because actually
the Bible never defines churchRight.
Nowhere in the New Testamentdoes it define church.
(35:07):
It only describes it.
Right.
And when it describes it, itdoes it with snapshot pictures.
I was told it was when thebelievers gathered together
regularly and they considerthemselves a church and they
have qualified elders and theypractice baptism, communion some
(35:30):
would add church discipline,and they have an evangelistic
purpose and they preach the wordand they have sound doctrine,
those types of things.
Sure, and I began to look atthat and think you're just
making up ingredients.
In fact, nowhere in the Bibledoes it say you have to think
you're a church to be a church.
(35:51):
Right, even when you don'tthink you're church, you're
probably still church.
I mean, I would imagine thatparachurch organizations like
Crew or InterVarsity, theygather together, they worship
the Lord, they preach the gospel, they have communion.
No, they don't have communiontogether.
They don't baptize so, becausethey don't get wet and they
(36:11):
don't eat crackers and thimblesjuice.
They're not the church and Ijust don't think that God looks
down from heaven.
That's what he thinks.
I mean he sees his people.
So, and the worst thing aboutthat list is not what's on it,
but what isn't on it.
Jesus never made the list.
(36:32):
Yeah.
So I don't know how you dochurch without Jesus.
But the truth is, if you candefine church without Jesus,
then you can do church withoutJesus, and we have done that.
So my definition of churchbegins with the presence of
Christ.
Now I understand.
The Bible doesn't define it,but this is how I see it.
It's the presence of Jesusamong his people, called out as
(36:55):
a spiritual family to pursue hismission on this planet.
Yeah.
So it starts with the presenceof Jesus.
Now, if you look at thosesnapshots of church, church is a
body, church is a bride churchis a building, church is a
branch, church is a flock,church is a field, church is a
family, every one of thosethings.
(37:17):
If you take Jesus out, it allfalls apart.
So church is a body.
Well, what's a body without ahead, a corpse?
What is a bride that has nogroom?
A widow.
What is a building that has nofoundation Rubble?
What is a flock that has noshepherd Wolf chow?
(37:37):
I mean basically, once youremove the presence of Jesus
from your understanding ofchurch, you're dead.
What is a branch that has novine Firewood?
Speaker 3 (37:50):
That's so good.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
There's nothing to it .
So we start there the presenceof Jesus.
Call that as a spiritual family.
Now, family, I don't think, isa metaphor, it is the actual
truth.
It's the reality, it's the fullexpression of who we are,
because every book in the NewTestament describes the people
of God as family.
Yeah.
(38:12):
Whether it's God the Father, orwe are brothers and sisters or
we are the household of God,it's all family, so we are meant
to be a family together.
But if you did church I mean ifyou did family the way you do
church, where you see each otheronce a week you mostly look at
the back of your brother's headwhile dad preaches a message and
(38:36):
mom passes a bag to collectmoney and then you leave.
I know some people aren't suchdysfunctional families.
They may prefer that, but thetruth is that's not what family
is that's right.
Family.
You need to look people in theeyes.
You need to interact with oneanother.
In fact, one of the thingsthat's not on that list
(38:57):
describing church is any oneanother, and there are 33, I
think, unique individual oneanother.
Commandments in the newtestament, and not one of them
made the list.
Yeah, but we are also called tofulfill his mission on this
planet and typically mission isa subcategory of church.
Yep, it's.
It's a sub-budget and it's gotits own staffing or its own
(39:20):
people or its own committee,yeah, its own board, and it's
only one of the things churchdoes, but I think that's
misunderstanding it.
I don't think we have a missionto fulfill for god yeah I
believe god has a mission.
He's asked us to join him, so Idon't think the church has a
mission.
The mission has a church.
(39:40):
I've heard my friend AlanHirsch say that, so I want to
give credit to that.
Sure, but we join him in hismission.
His mission didn't start inActs.
His mission didn't start inMatthew.
His mission started in Genesis3, when he went out seeking that
which was lost.
And he has been on that missionall this time and the only
(40:04):
reason church exists is becauseof his mission.
If there was no mission, therewould be no church.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
So mission comes before the church.
Your missiology should comebefore your ecclesiology.
So I think that that's myunderstanding of church.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Yeah, that's so good because I feel like it's.
I feel like it probably makes alot of people uncomfortable,
but in the sense of it'sstripping everything down to
like, what are we actually doinghere?
What are we here for?
What does Jesus want us stillhere for?
Otherwise he would have justzapped us up the moment we said
yes to him.
There's obviously something usstill here for, otherwise he
(40:43):
would have just zapped us up themoment we said yes to him.
You know, there's obviouslysomething we're here for, and
what does it look like for us toto be the church and to gather
the church?
And the thing that's soencouraging to me and has been
so encouraging to me, is themore that, um, I learned about
it and I read scripture and Isee the book of acts the the
less um extra fluff I feelobligated to and the more
freedom it feels to just beauthentic with people.
We had a conversation the otherday, or Brooke was having a
(41:03):
conversation with a friend backhome in North Carolina and I
overheard her and she said youknow, can we just make disciples
, cause you're just dealing withstuff and people are, you know,
all this different thing.
Can we just make disciples?
Can we just love people andhave relationships with people
and stuff, and it's so freeingto me to hear this kind of
broken down, uh, in a simple wayit's.
It's simple in the sense ofit's, it there's.
(41:24):
There's not like so many thingsto learn and remember.
Simple in that sense, but, asyou know, like actually living
that out is probably moredifficult than the current form,
if that makes sense.
It takes more.
It takes more sacrifice.
Uh, especially relationally,based on my experience with
people like you have to getthrough things and stuff like
(41:47):
that.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
Justin's an introvert , so that's hard oh yeah, I'm an
introvert too.
Yeah, that's so funny.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
The thing is is uh, we've practiced this kind of
superficial Christianity for solong and it's been okay that if
someone offends you, you justdon't associate with them
anymore.
Sure.
If they step on your toes, ifthey betray you in some way, you
just never see them again.
You find a way to just avoidthem.
That is not what love is.
(42:16):
Yeah.
And so if we want to be a lovingpeople of God, then we need to
see what relationship is like onthe other side of betrayal, and
that can be a strongerrelationship when love prevails,
but we'll never know if wedon't venture there.
(42:36):
So there has to be awillingness to love people when
they hurt you, because that isthe gospel.
That is.
Jesus.
That's exactly what he did.
That is who he is.
We have to be the ones thatlove those who betray us, those
who turn us in those who deny uswith a kiss.
(43:00):
That's how we have to be, orwe're nothing like Jesus and
we're hypocrites to the world.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
That's powerful and I agree with that wholeheartedly.
What does that look like whenthere's situations Obviously
we've been through many, manysituations where people have
hurt or rejected or come againstus and stuff like that, in the
sense of, does that mean doinglife with that person?
(43:29):
Does that mean running side byside in ministry with that
person?
I don't know if you have anykind of specific examples of how
that plays out, because I knowthere's a lot of people that
have dealt with with hurt in thechurch, and what does that look
like to love and forgivesomebody through that?
Um when you still aren't inunity, moving forward, say in,
(43:52):
you know whatever that lookslike practically Right.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Well, I'm now 64 years old, yeah.
So, yes, I have lots ofexamples, not too many.
I'd want to put out on YouTube,sure, but maybe the best way to
point it out is in a marriage,you're going to step on each
other's toes.
You're going to have differentvalues and approaches to life or
(44:18):
ways of seeing things or waysof communicating that will be
misunderstood, that will betaken the wrong way, that will
cause hurt and pain that maylast for years and years, and in
our society, we break up overthat.
We divorce.
Right.
But for those who choose not todivorce, they have to work
(44:39):
through it.
And when they do work throughit, there's an intimacy that
comes on the other side, okay,that you can't manufacture with
flowers and candy.
It comes only through passingthrough the dark valleys
together and coming out on theother side.
(44:59):
So, yeah, I've had people hurtme or betray me or leave me
alone when I needed help and Ihave chosen I'm not perfect at
this, but I have chosen for someof those, in some cases, to
keep on loving them, keep onaccepting them, keep on walking
(45:21):
through life with them, and it'smade our relationship better in
the end.
And I don't guarantee thatpeople will respond well to your
love Jesus did not have thatguarantee but I do guarantee
that if you love those who donot love you, you'll be more
like christ and your life willbe more fulfilling yeah
Speaker 3 (45:44):
I think, going back to the example you're using
through marriage, you know, Ithink in corinthians it talks
about, you know, if anunbelieving spouse is married to
a believing spouse and theunbelieving spouse wants to go,
like let them go and don'tconvince them to stay.
But if they're willing to stay,like, be Christ to them is
pretty much what it's saying,and I think that's the way it is
(46:05):
in a lot of these relationships, like, if they're willing to
stay and work it out with you,work it out with them, move
forward, get to the other sideof the betrayal or the slander,
whatever the case may be, but ifthey're not willing to go, you
can't force them to stay either,and then that's between them
and the Lord.
So I think that's a really goodexample, you know, using that.
Like Paul says, be at peacewith all men.
(46:28):
As much as it depends on you,as you can be possible, yeah, as
you could do, that's good, sogood.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
Probably the last thing I want to get into before
we end.
This episode is something thatwe hadn't mentioned, and I think
it's core to what what organicchurch is, and and and getting
started in it is.
That is something that I'veheard you talk about a lot, and
that is the DNA getting down tothe DNA level.
A lot of people in our currentprevailing model will start at
(46:55):
the end.
You know, we'll start.
What do we need to do first?
We need to go into a city.
We need to start.
What do we need to do first?
Uh, we need to go into a city,we need to find real estate, we
need to get a building, Then weneed to get a leadership team
together and then we need to,you know, and so it's just
backwards.
So how would you say, um, the,the DNA works?
Uh, in in organic church.
And why is it important tostart at that level?
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Well, that's life in general.
I mean, all of us began as azygote, which was a cell that
was planted, that doubled anddoubled again.
That's where all life starts,that's where all multiplication
begins and that's what formsinto what we are now and our
offspring and their offspringafter them.
So to not think about the DNAis to try and clone somebody in
(47:48):
an unnatural form or create amonster like Frankenstein by
adding this arm to this body andthis head and suddenly thinking
it's alive.
Or another analogy I've usedoften is I live in California.
There's a place called Legolandand they have trees built out
(48:09):
of Legos.
Now they're not alive.
They don't bear fruit, they'renot growing.
They can provide shade, theymight be impressive to look at,
but they're not a living thingand you're just plugging things
in from the outside.
That's not how trees grow.
You start with a seed and inthat seed, if you open it up,
you're not going to see a tinylittle pine tree.
(48:31):
You're going to see matter thatcontains genetic material that,
once the outer decay decays andthe and it's buried, it begins
to sprout roots and it begins toshoot up a stem and it grows
into a tree and that tree willbear fruit.
(48:51):
That will then do the sameprocess all over again.
Yeah.
So that's why the DNA isimportant.
It's everything, in fact.
If you don't think about thedna and you don't do it right
and I don't, I'm not saying youdo the dna, the dna is something
that you can't create right youcan't do a sermon series on the
dna and suddenly everyone'sgoing to be healthy.
(49:12):
Um, the dna is divine truth,relationships and apostolic
mission.
I know it must be from Godbecause it spells DNA in God's
language, English.
King James.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
It doesn't translate.
It doesn't translate.
But you know, Jesus did.
He talk about genetics,Absolutely he did.
All the time he didn't use theword deoxyribunic nucleic acid
um, because that hadn't beendiscovered yet can you say that
in hebrew?
Speaker 3 (49:47):
I'm just kidding, I just did, okay, yeah that wasn't
english that
Speaker 2 (49:51):
wasn't english.
I heard you just spoke english.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
That's right but you know he does.
He did talk about.
He talked about fruit.
He talked about make the treegood and the fruit will be good.
Make the tree bad and the fruitwill be bad.
That's all genetics.
So he emphasized it a lot.
And those three things divinetruth, nurturing relationships,
apostolic mission, that's thegreatest commandment.
(50:14):
Love the Lord, your God, withall your heart, mind, soul and
strength.
Love your neighbor as yourself,that's the end.
And, great commission, go makedisciples.
It's that emphasized.
You have Paul talking about it.
He says there's three thingsFaith, that's our response to
truth.
Hope, that's our response tomission.
Love, that's our response torelationship.
So you see, throughout the NewTestament, when Jesus says I am
(50:40):
the way, the truth and the life,he is the way, that's the
mission, he is the truth, divinetruth, he is the life, he is
the interaction, the love forone another, the relationship.
This is the DNA.
When he says abide in me,that's connecting with divine
truth.
When he says you will be one aswe are one, that's nurturing
(51:03):
relationships.
He says you'll be my witnesses.
That's John 15, dna.
He emphasized it.
When he said my house shall becalled a house of prayer for all
the nations.
We are to connect with God inprayer.
We are a household, family, andwe are for the nations.
He emphasized DNA over and overand over again.
So, ultimately, jesus himselfis the DNA, so he is the word.
(51:29):
That's divine truth.
God is love, he is therelationship and he is the
mission, so he is the gospel,the living embodiment of Christ,
so of of who God is.
So if you have Jesus, in yourlife.
You have all the DNA and it justflows from that.
(51:54):
We leaders need to startshifting the way we approach
people and stop trying to putgood stuff in people and try to
get the God stuff out of them,because Jesus already deposited
in them the best thing in theuniverse and we think my book's
(52:15):
going to help them and that'sridiculous.
My sermon's going to make adifference.
No, try to think.
If you're a leader in thechurch with God's people, no
matter whether it's a missionagency or an organic church or
an institutional church.
Your role is to find out whatGod's planted in them and draw
it out.
And that is more organic.
(52:37):
That's find the DNA and let ithave its way.
Now, doing ministry without theDNA, I want to say it's hard
work, it's futile work.
It does not produce life, itdoes not produce fruit and it
will cost you everything.
It'll be expensive, it'll be alot of sweat and tears and blood
(53:01):
and in the end you'll havelittle to nothing to show for it
.
Yeah.
But if you just plant the rightseed and good soil, you don't
have to do much at all.
Right, it all does it by itself.
In fact, jesus told the parable.
The farmer sows the seed, hegoes to bed at night, wakes up
by day, the seed sprouts andgrows all by itself.
That's the Greek word atamate.
(53:22):
Just add water.
And it grows all by itself.
First the stem, then the head,then the full kernel in the head
and it's time for the harvesthas come.
The farmer doesn't have to singsongs or stand up and shout or
yell at it or motivate it with ameaningful story that makes you
(53:43):
cry yeah it just happensorganically from the dna on the
inside and that's that makes allthe difference you need to have
.
That's why the dna is soimportant in everything we do.
Speaker 2 (53:56):
Yeah, that is so good .
Um well, uh, we'll end here.
Uh, I'm just, I'm reallythinking about the people that
are listening and how they'vekind of reached out to us and
the the pattern of of wherepeople are at in there.
Why we love speaking to to thistype of person is because we've
(54:16):
we've walked through thatjourney, and that is the person
that is finishing watching thisepisode and light bulbs are just
going off.
And they're like, oh my goodness.
But yet that same person we'veheard time after time feels like
they're completely alone wherethey're at.
Maybe they try to begin thisconversation with the people
(54:40):
around them and they look atthem sideways like they're
absolutely insane, make themfeel like what they're thinking,
what they're doing, is eitherunbiblical or it's rebellious.
What would you say to thatperson to encourage them in this
particular season?
Speaker 1 (54:55):
Well, there's a reason why I came to do this
podcast with you.
It's because I've been waitingfor voices to speak to the
people who are disenfranchisedfrom the organizational church
but feel a love for Jesus, andthat's kind of.
Your voices are rising in thatworld and I'm getting old so I
(55:18):
can say some things.
I can be the gandalf thatstands up there and says you
shall not pass, but I'm not thearagorn anymore who's going to
be swinging the sword.
Yeah, and there's.
I've been waiting for thosevoices to arise and when they
rise I want to pour as much as Ican on that, because there's
going to be a new move of Godamong people and, unlike other
(55:42):
times in the past where it wasregional, like the Welsh
revival- or the great awakening.
It's going to be global becauseit's.
I travel all over the world andodd place.
I'm in Azerbaijan and there'sthese young people who just want
.
They're hungry for Jesus, yeah,they want him, and and they're
they're telling their friendsabout want, they're hungry for
Jesus, they want him and they'retelling their friends about
(56:02):
Christ.
They're baptizing theirdisciples and you give them just
a simple plan and they'll go doit, but what they don't want is
to stop everything and just goto church on Sunday.
And so I want to see a voice,many voices, rise up that say
it's okay, you don't have tofollow in line with what your
(56:24):
grandparents did.
You can do something fresh andnew in this day with Christ, and
you should.
And it's not something, in fact, it's not hard.
Organic is very easy, that'sthe whole point of the dna, it
does it all by itself.
The hard part is characterformation and persecution and
(56:46):
spiritual warfare.
That's hard, but the actualministry is easy, that's right
yeah, because you're not doingit.
You don't carry that on yourshoulders yeah so that part's
easy.
Sometimes it's not the learningof the new stuff that's hard,
it's the unlearning of the oldstuff that's hard.
Speaker 3 (57:04):
Sure, and that's what seems to be this podcast
addresses and that needs to besaid.
Speaker 1 (57:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:10):
Amen.
Well, Neil, I really appreciateyour time today.
I appreciate being here Just awealth of knowledge.
Speaker 1 (57:14):
I think I want to cry .
Speaker 2 (57:15):
It was so good, you know.
Just a wealth of knowledge, Ithink.
Speaker 3 (57:16):
I want to cry.
It was so good, so good.
Speaker 2 (57:20):
Yeah, yeah.
We appreciate you being here somuch and we're going to link
down below just some of yourresources and stuff like that.
I think that's probably thebest way to have people.
I'll talk to you afterwardswith what, what information you
want to put in there and if youguys want to want to find out
more you're interested in moreof what Neil's got going on and
(57:41):
the wisdom and stuff.
There's plenty of books andresources that he's written we
would love to connect you with.
So thanks again for your timetoday, neil.
Speaker 1 (57:48):
Thank you.
Awesome.
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