January 28, 2025 • 48 mins
Hope can feel hard to hold onto, especially during tough times. In this episode, we explore how challenges can actually deepen your faith and why staying rooted in God’s promises is so important. Through real stories and scripture, we’ll share practical ways to build and sustain hope when life feels overwhelming.
What we’ll cover:
• How trials can strengthen your hope
• Insights from Romans 5 on perseverance
• The role of community in keeping hope alive
• Practical steps to nurture hope
• Encouragement for those facing struggles alone
Join us for an honest conversation about finding and holding onto hope.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
People are going to come against you all the time.
You have to know what God hasspoken and said to you and not
let go of that thing, becausethe enemy's greatest tactic is
to keep you unproductive for thekingdom of God, because if you
are productive, lives will besaved.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
What were you doing practically to get you through
that, to persevere through thosetimes where you just wanted to
be loved?
Speaker 1 (00:19):
I started off would get these kind of words that
were extremely discrediting ordiscouraging or completely
against what God had told us todo, would take them up for the
Lord and let them roll off if itdoesn't stick.
But when it continued to happenover and over and over again,
it's like almost like Person outthere they're listening.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
They're going through a trial and a tribulation right
now.
People are coming against them.
It's just a difficult situation.
They're trying to hold on, tohope, but they feel like it's
slipping out of their fingertipsand they don't know what to do.
In one or two sentences, in asuccinct, condensed, simple way
what would you say to them inthis place?
Speaker 1 (00:54):
The biggest stealer of hope.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Welcome to the ReChurch Podcast.
If you're tired of business asusual Christianity and ready to
live like Jesus, you've foundyourself in the right place.
I'm here with my lovely wife,Brooke Brooke, say hello.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
You didn't call me the right name.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
The princess.
The princess.
I don't know if you're gettingsick of it or not.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yeah, sometimes, but not always.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Not getting lame yet Cool.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
That's hilarious.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I mean there could be new listeners.
I just want to make sureeverybody knows.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yeah, hi, I mean there could be new listeners.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
I just want to make sure everybody knows.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yeah, hi, the title, that's Rightfully.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yours, yeah.
But you know how we feel abouttitles on this podcast.
Yeah right, well, I'm glad youjoined us today.
Today we're going to be talkingabout hope.
Okay, and some people might askthe question how does that
relate to the ReChurch podcast,organic church discipleship, how
to you know previous podcastswe've had about the
institutional church system?
How does hope?
Well, I think it plays a veryimportant role because if hope
(01:50):
is taken hold of and cultivated,it can actually, it has the
power to anchor your soul andgive you strength through
tribulation, through trial,through difficult times and on
the opposite spectrum, if it'snot taken hold of right.
We know that Proverbs says hopedeferred can make the heart
sick, so it can have theopposite effect on you.
It can actually destroy you.
If you've ever had experienceswhere you've lacked hope.
(02:13):
It seems like you have nopurpose, you don't know which
way is up or down, you don'tknow where to go and you can't
find the motivation to evensometimes pray or talk to any of
those things.
So I realized this morning, inmy time with the Lord, what, not
only what a role hope playsaccording to the scripture, but
experientially as well in mylife and, I'm sure, in years.
(02:36):
In times where you've had hope,you feel energized, you feel
good, you feel like you can doanything, and in times when you
don't have it you feel stuck.
So today we're going to talkabout number one, the importance
of hope, which we've justtapped on.
We're going to talk about howto cultivate hope according to
Romans, chapter five, so that,not if, but when you go through
(03:01):
trials, you will have that hope,that anchor for your soul to
hang on to to get you through.
So I want to start by saying youknow, a lot of people that have
listened to this podcast havemessages, messages Either
they've commented down below orthey've.
They've personally emailed usDuring the middle of a
(03:22):
transition outside oftraditional church and some of
those people are dealing with,uh, you know, different,
different hurts and differentthings that they've.
They've experienced, mayberejection, stuff like that when
making that transition, becausepeople didn't respond to them
the way that they uh thought youknow was the right way or the
way that was the right way ingeneral, and so it's discouraged
them.
(03:42):
Way that they thought you knowwas the right way or the way
that was the right way ingeneral, and so it's discouraged
them.
Or maybe they got out and theythought it was going to be one
way and it's another, and so youknow what I'm saying.
So it it, can you take me backto the time where, where we were
kind of stepping out, maybesome of the first couple of
times that we experienced like,whoa, this maybe wasn't exactly
what we expected.
Maybe.
(04:03):
Here you go, here's a goodexample.
Maybe you thought people weregoing to receive it well and
they actually, instead of justnot receiving it, they came
against you when you were justtrying to follow Jesus.
I think a lot of peopleexperienced that.
What was that like and how didyou get hope in that situation?
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah, that's a loaded question, so give me a moment
to process through that.
Because, you know, when I firstmet the Lord, you have this zeal
for God and nobody can takethat away from you.
You know, no matter what, andyou know, I remember in the
beginning of my walk with theLord, um, I had somebody say to
(04:37):
me like, oh, you're just a newbaby believer.
I was just as excited as youwhenever I met Jesus and, like
within weeks of being born again, I realized like I have to
fight for this passion for therest of my life, you know,
because I don't want to turninto the person who's grown
older and lost their fire forGod or their purpose for the
(04:57):
Lord, you know.
So I realized that very earlyon in my walk that, like I have
to fight for this, I have tofight to obey the Lord, no
matter what I do.
Um, so I have fought to keepthat zeal and that excitement
and that passion for Jesusthroughout my journey.
And then it goes into, you know, you're in the institutional
church, we're leading worship.
Uh, we're working with theyouth where, you know, at the
(05:19):
young Mary's couple, we wereinvolved in everything.
I feel like, uh, because we hadsuch a heart for people to know
Jesus, like we had encounteredHim, and I remember during that
time process the Lord began tospeak to you and I about being
missionaries going overseas andit made no sense in a lot of
ways.
We were unqualified, we had noministry education, we had three
(05:43):
little kids and all the things,and we were young.
But we knew what God had toldus.
And I remember we received aphone call one day.
We were looking into differentministry schools to kind of go
through for training and someonegave us a phone number of a guy
and I think you maybe textedhim or reached out and said hey,
I would love to sit down andtalk to you.
We're thinking about going withthis school Like no, you've been
there, Can we have your insight?
(06:04):
And he called us and he gaveyou the most detrimental word
possible.
He told you that you were crazyfor selling everything, that we
should keep our house and useit as a rental property and have
thousands and thousands ofdollars in the bank before we
even think about leaving theStates and all of these things.
(06:25):
And all we know God was sayingwas sell everything and go.
And I remember you sitting inthe we had a white leather chair
at the time and you weresitting in that white leather
chair and you, kind of like, gotoff the phone and you crippled
over.
You were just crippled and youwere stuck and you were like, I
literally feel like Isaiah, theprophet, isaiah whenever Jezebel
(06:46):
, not Isaiah, yeah, isaiah.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
No, Elijah.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Um, I feel like the prophet Elijah, like I just got
a word from a prophet of Jezebeland it's just stolen all of my
passion for the Lord.
And so I remember speaking lifeinto you that day and I'm like
what has God said?
Let's remove the word from thisman.
What has the Lord spoken to you?
And you said he's told us to go, he's told us to go into all
(07:11):
the nations and preach thegospel.
And we moved forward anyways.
And I look back on thatconversation I'm like, thank God
, we moved forward anyways, eventhough it went against, in that
moment, somebody else's wisdom.
It wasn't the wisdom of theLord.
Justin and I if you haven't gotthe gist yet are a bit of
trailblazers.
We like to go hardcore first,into things headfirst, and we're
(07:36):
okay with like stubbing our toea little bit here and there,
we're okay with getting a littlebloody here and there and all
the things.
And so we've had a lot ofpeople come along our journey
and tell us like, oh, god toldme to tell you to stop what
you're doing, or you're aministry of the minister of the
devil and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and um, or this isn't
right.
And I just look back on myjourney and if I would have
really heat.
(07:56):
And there's been times.
The words hit harder sometimesand you have to really weigh the
word.
But after you receive the wordit stole all joy from your life,
all hope, all passionexcitement.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, that's a good point.
So, because you don't want tobe the person that just doesn't
receive anything and isquote-unquote, unteachable.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
That's for another conversation.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
But you also don't want to receive a word from any
little person, because you couldbe receiving a word from the
enemy something that completelyknocks you off track.
That's a tough, tough balanceto do 100%.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
So it's been trial and error.
You know, I look back and therehas been a few things that
people have told me that I'mlike, ooh, I wish I would listen
to their wisdom, um, but thenthere's words we've been given
that people claim is from theLord, and those words literally
like sabotage seasons of life,you know, and joy and peace and
all of the things that comethrough the Holy Spirit.
You know, can you get a wordfrom God that is extremely
(08:50):
convicting and like cuts you tothe heart, makes you bleed open
Absolutely, but those wordsbring good fruit.
You know, these words that wewere receiving were words that
felt very cutting, but the fruitthat was coming from the me,
even entertaining the words, wasnot life giving, it wasn't
fruitful, it was actuallystealing.
(09:12):
So that's how I had to kind ofdiscern and like walk things out
.
And so I think that in thosemoments, realizing you're not
going to feel lovey dovey duringthe process of sifting through
those words, but likepersevering through those things
, and as you persevere, godbegins to speak and confirm and
(09:32):
you get to the other side andthat's when hope's restored, not
really necessarily in the midstof the wrestle or the
transition, maybe you're leavinginstitutional church and it's
costing some relationshipsbecause people think you're
crazy and they don't want to gowith you.
And you thought they might,would come with you because they
love you and they said theyloved you or they said they
cared, but really when push cameto shove like they don't really
(09:54):
care as much about what youhave to say, now that you seem
or look crazy, or maybe theywould look crazy with going with
you.
So that's where perseveranceand steadfastness begins and
develops and character anddevelopment, all those things
and patience.
But it's not until you kind oflike get to the other side of
that moment in that trial, thatyou receive the hope that brings
(10:18):
joy.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Like the refinement it does and I think what I want
to do because you just laid outlike a real life experience of
obtaining hope through a trial,and I want to go back to the
scripture of Romans 5 because itactually walks us through that
process.
So I want to show everybody.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
And I, really quick, want to say one note before you
go there is this is somethingI'm still learning, you know
this is something we're stillgrasping and growing in.
I almost got tears in my eyeswhen I say that, because people
are going to come against youall the time and you have to
know what God has spoken andsaid to you and not let go of
that thing, because the enemy'sgreatest tactic is to keep you
(10:59):
unproductive for the kingdom ofGod, because if you are
productive, lives will be saved.
So you have to hold on to theword that the Lord gave you, but
also be willing to be taught bythe spirit First.
John 2 27 says let no man teachyou, but of the spirit.
Let the spirit of God be yourteacher.
So if God's not speaking it toyou and people just come out of
the blue and they're like I gotthis word from the Lord, from
(11:20):
you, and it's not anything he's,it's actually the polar
opposite of what he's speakingto you in your secret place,
like bless them, thank them,give it to God, but if it's not
from him, be okay with throwingit out and let the spirit be
your teacher.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
So that's so interesting.
We have a scripture that sayslet no man teach you, you know,
but yet the gift of teaching isthe most exalted gift which blew
my mind when you, you said thaton our last podcast, when I was
like wow, we call itshepherding.
We call it a pastor, but reallyhe's just a teacher on stage,
(11:54):
and so that gift is so exaltedin the church at large that it
takes over everything.
It creates the structure forour whole church system.
That's right.
Everything is based on thebalance, yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
You know.
So I think you know.
I didn't mean to cut you off onthat, but when you're talking
about that, I just get thispicture of like being so
unbalanced.
If you exalt one gift over theother or you try to build a
church on a teacher and notapostle and a prophet, you're
going to get extremelyknowledgeable people.
But knowledge brings pridewithout application.
So that's what where the churchis at large is like.
(12:29):
We have a lot of puffed uppeople, um, whether they're true
Christians, false Christians,professing Christians, or
they're just confused, or wolvesin sheep's clothing.
You get a bunch of puffed uppeople and we ended up doing
more damage than good.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, and I would even say that people and we end
up doing more damage than good.
Yeah, and I would even say thatmaybe some of them aren't
puffed up, but they're deceivedinto thinking that what they're
doing is the right model, it'sthe right thing and it's like
because this is what my callingis, my calling to be a pastor,
to do this, and so they're.
They're literally doing itbecause they want to be faithful
(13:03):
and they truly believe this iswhat God has called them to do.
And just because you have apassion in you to teach God's
people or to lead God's peopledoesn't mean that that position,
that man-made position wecreated, is the proper outlet.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
And so I think that's what a lot of people are waking
up to and I'm glad you saidthat before about like we want
you guys to know on this podcastwe're not perfect and that's
why we don't come on here andtry to speak at you, or or it's
not a channel that is meant toto go.
We'll get deep theologically,but we want to talk about real
(13:41):
life stuff in the application.
So the stuff, the conversationsthat we have, of course, are
going to have a scriptural basis.
To our best understanding,nobody has a perfect
interpretation of all ofscripture, but we're not here to
give you a Bible study.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah, you can find those everywhere.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
A dime, a dozen right we want to give you.
Basically, we want to staynarrow in the place that God has
used us the most, that we havesuccess in and experience in so
that we can help you along thatjourney, and that's why, we're
here, but this was powerful andthis is real life and this is,
you know, what I'm learningright now and what God has shown
us and what we've been throughin the past.
(14:20):
So in Romans, chapter five, it'sPaul's talking about
justification, from chapter fouron into five, and he says
therefore, having been justifiedby faith, we have peace with
God through our Lord, jesusChrist.
So I was looking at this, I wastrying to gain a picture of
this, because we've talked aboutthis with other people before,
and that is, there's so manywords that the Bible uses under
(14:44):
the umbrella of salvation.
It uses the word salvation, youhave been saved.
Right, it uses born again inJohn, chapter three.
It uses justification right,you're standing before God,
there's righteousness, there'ssanctification, there's
glorification, and you're likewhat is all this happening?
And so I actually drew thislittle picture this morning when
I was studying and it was likethis umbrella and I just this is
(15:11):
the picture I saw in my headLike when the umbrella is
salvation.
Salvation is is an umbrella term.
It encompasses a lot of things.
It's spoken of as past, presentand future in the scripture.
Right, you have been saved, youare being saved and you will be
saved.
You can find that allthroughout scripture and under
that umbrella of salvation arecertain things that happen Now.
The entry point to that is theborn again experience right,
(15:34):
when your spirit becomes renewed, when your spirit comes alive.
So born again is that entrypoint right Repentance, water,
baptism, faith in Christ,receiving the Holy Spirit,
entering into the journey ofsalvation.
That's why they call it the wayin the early church in the Bible
, and once you are born again,you are therefore, at that
beginning point, justified byGod.
(15:56):
And this is what Paul istalking about here.
He says past tense you havebeen justified with God.
What does that mean?
It means that we have peacewith God through our Lord Jesus
Christ.
So we were at enmity with God,we were his enemies, and now,
through the born againexperience, through entering in
to the family of God, we are nowjustified.
So you can hold on to that.
It's just a beautiful picture.
And then sanctification.
(16:17):
I have this line that extendsthroughout the umbrella, because
sanctification is a processthat starts at the born again
experience, it starts atjustification and it goes all
the way until the end, which isglorification right when we
enter into glory, when wereceive our new bodies, when we
meet christ face to face.
And then it's interesting.
(16:38):
I was looking at the umbrellathat I drew in.
At the very bottom there was alittle loop, and I was like, oh,
look, look at J for Jesus.
That is true, jesus is the onewho actually holds the umbrella.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
That's right, that's so good.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
And I'm sitting there , I'm thinking about it and the
Lord is just giving me thisrevelation, and then I see rain
coming down over the umbrellaand that was a picture of his
grace, because in a minute we'llread in Romans, chapter 5, that
all of this experience,entering into this experience
with God, is us standing in thegrace of God.
So I just pictured the grace ofGod like standing out in a
(17:09):
rainstorm.
That's so good.
The grace of God is theexperience of salvation.
That's what we experience whenwe receive salvation, so I hope
that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Yeah, powerful.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Cool.
So verse two, through whom,speaking of Jesus, we have also
obtained here.
It is our introduction by faith, into this grace in which we
stand and we exalt in hope ofthe glory of God.
And I feel like if you readthat, you skim over that.
It's just like a lot of wordsand they're jumbled together and
(17:39):
you're like what does that mean?
So I had to sit down and breakthat down earlier.
So it's our faith.
This is where I got thatpicture.
It's our faith.
That is the introduction intothe grace in which we stand.
Here's where hope enters thescene.
It says and we exalt in hope ofthe glory of God.
(18:01):
And I'm like why is thisportion of scripture exalt?
Like, why is it putting hopefirst and foremost?
Why not faith?
Why?
not salvation, why not grace?
Why is it hope?
And it goes on to say and notonly this, but we also exalt in
our tribulation.
So it's like, ok, we exalt inhope and we exalt in tribulation
.
Stick with me for a minute, Iknow we're getting a little, a
(18:21):
little wordy on this.
But the reason we exalt intribulations is this knowing
that tribulation brings aboutperseverance, and perseverance,
proven character, and provencharacter, hope.
So there is the thread, thetrail line of get you to point a
to point B.
And he says and hope does notdisappoint, because the love of
God has been poured out withinour hearts through the Holy
(18:43):
spirit who was given to us, for,while we were still helpless,
at the right time, christ diedfor the ungodly.
So what I want to talk about andwhat I want to break down today
, is that progression thatprogression that you explained
earlier, that you experiencedand that scripture takes us
through, because I feel like, atleast for me, I thought in the
(19:04):
beginning hope was something youjust had.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Like you get saved and you're like well, I really
appreciate it, jesus, you savedme.
I should have hope.
Yeah Right, but hope seems tobe this fleeting thing that it's
like we have it one minute andthen we don't.
But the scripture here istelling us that there's a
progression towards hope, likethere are steps to get to hope,
and the first step it talksabout is tribulation.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Lots of that.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
So, Paul, are you saying that?
I mean, I imagine in otherplaces of Scripture there's
other avenues to get to hope,but in this particular portion
of Scripture it's saying wedon't get to hope unless we
don't get to hope.
Unless, Unless.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Unless there's tribulation, why?
Speaker 2 (19:47):
do you think that is?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Because I think, you know, I think, when I think
about tribulation, tribulationcan be many things right,
situational things that come,and I think hope is in Jesus,
which I feel like is thatpicture of that J at the bottom
(20:12):
of the umbrella, you know, and II think that until you endure
trials, cause there is also ascripture that says if necessary
, Sure Peter.
Right, that that you can'treally understand hope until
you've endured those things.
You know what I mean, Because Ieven think of Christ.
Like he came to this earth, hehad the big picture in mind
(20:35):
before he even came rightWhether or not he understood as
a child, who knows but heunderstood that he had a purpose
and his purpose was to dowhatever he saw his father doing
and to reconcile mankind.
And like he literally says Icame to earth to preach and cast
out demons, to preach truth andpreach salvation and to deliver
people from the hands of theenemy.
(20:55):
I think that's a mark, maybe.
And he says those thingsbecause I think you can't really
experience full hope untilyou've experienced something
hard.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, you know.
Yeah, that's what the scripturesays here.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
It's just interesting .
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I was thinking as you were saying it.
I'm like.
You know how faith withoutaction is dead, dead.
Yeah, so it's like it's notthat your actions save you or
your actions are your faith, buttrue, genuine faith will
produce action.
That's right.
And then that's what James says.
Is he's like I'll show you myfaith by my action.
It's almost like I'll show youmy hope by my perseverance.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
That's so good and that's what I'm thinking Like.
Can you truly understand hopeunless you've gone through
something really hard, you know?
Speaker 2 (21:38):
We talked about this earlier.
I think hope is I think somepeople can genuinely have it.
Again just like people cangenuinely have faith before the
actions follow becausesequentially.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
There hasn't been time but it's hopefully
developed until you've gonethrough something hard.
Yes, that's good, it's matured,it's fully developed.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
So what that action does, of persevering through
tribulation, is it validates thehope.
God doesn't need the validationwe need the validation.
So what happens is we go throughthat progress of that
progression of tribulation,however long it takes, and then
(22:19):
in the tribulation, we perseverebecause we're trusting God,
which which you said, you know,which it goes back to um, what
are we hoping?
In Right, you know, we'rehoping in God, we're hoping that
what he says is true, becauseif what he says isn't true, then
we have no promise of all ofthese things.
We have no promise ofjustification, we have no
promise of sanctification, wehave no promise of salvation, we
(22:39):
have no promise ofglorification, of resurrection,
of future body of eternity.
All of these things fall apartif there is no substance to our
hope, which is what faith is.
Faith is the substance of thingshoped for, and so it's like
this whole ecosystem ofencompassing things.
But the Lord knows that we haveto actually experience
something before we can actuallyfully grasp it.
(23:05):
And it's so cool because itallows us, allows us to going
back to connecting with otherscriptures, it allows us to go
through something difficult andknow that there's something more
meaningful at the end.
Like what is it First Peterthat talks about?
through that, perseverance isthe testing of our faith Like
all this stuff connectsthroughout scripture and at the
(23:27):
end, Like all this stuffconnects throughout scripture
and at the end, if you persevere, then it's like purified.
Your faith is purified likegold.
What does Jesus say to thechurches in the book of
Revelation?
The promises are to who?
The one who didn't make?
Speaker 1 (23:40):
it.
Do you know what I'm saying?
We were talking about this.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
The other day.
Neil had mentioned something inhis podcast that I didn't see
in scripture.
I had to look it up.
I'm like where is that?
He was like you know, you'llhave new names.
You'll have a new name inheaven.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
And I'm like where is that?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
And he does, he talks about.
To the one who perseveres uh,you have a new name that you?
don't even name when we get toheaven, it's pretty wild.
So that made more sense to mewhen I started to look at that
(24:14):
particular scripture.
And now it's interesting howcharacter comes into this,
because it's not just, it's notjust tribulation, it's not just
perseverance, and theperseverance leads to hope.
There's something else in themiddle of that and that is not
character, proven character, butagain, who are we proving it to
?
Are we proving to God?
(24:34):
We have good character To me.
I read that and I'm thinking Godknows, he knows our hearts like
he knows we're proving toourselves like that Well, we're
just proving in general that ourcharacter is real, because you
can say all you want like I'mhumble.
Or you can think that you'regodly, you're humble, you're all
(24:57):
of these things, but until thatthing is tested, you don't
truly know.
Until Abraham actually did whathe did.
He raised the knife Like hedidn't know that he would
genuinely go through with it,and you had to trust God in that
.
So, it's just cool to see that alot of people don't see the
Bible as that practical ofshowing you the journey of how
to get to a place.
(25:17):
We just use all this Christianease and we're like well, have
hope in God, and you're like OK.
And it's just this weird theorything that we go back and forth
with Right and again going backto why this is important and
important on this podcast, isthat not only is every single
Christian going to experiencethis, whatever form of church
you are part of, but a lot ofpeople coming out of the
(25:40):
institutional system and goinginto a more organic way of doing
church are going to experiencethis for sure, 100%.
You're going to experience thisfor sure, 100%.
You're going to experience itthrough trial and tribulation
that comes against you by thereligious who don't agree with
what you're doing or condemnwhat you're doing when you're
just trying to follow Jesus.
And you're going to go throughit, when things get difficult
(26:02):
because you're doing somethingthat's new to you, old to the
Bible, new to you, but thatactually takes genuine work.
Like the relationships take work.
The seeking God takes work.
Like all of this stuff is it'snot easier.
You don't do it because it'seasier.
You do it because it's what Godactually calls us to do.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Well, you do it because it's going to be the
most fruitful thing to do Notnecessarily the easiest thing to
do.
I think about, you know, havingchildren it to do.
I think about you know, havingchildren, um, it's the most
refining thing in the world.
Having a child, you know, and Ithink that's why the Lord's
like go, be fruitful andmultiply, because he knows being
a mother and a father is achallenging task, but it is the
(26:39):
most rewarding task you'll everdo, um and the most fruitful
task you'll ever do, um.
So I think that's why, when weare pursuing the Lord and he
calls us to do things that maybe outside of the box of
tradition, uh, it gets a lot ofkickback.
Because I'm.
I just want to be really clear.
Like, religion will be yourbiggest enemy in this walk of
(27:02):
being led of the spirit.
Things that are of the spirittruly offend things that are of
religion.
So those religious words orpeople or spirits will tell you
this isn't of the Lord, or thisis unbiblical, or you're
heretical, or you're critical,or you're this or you're that,
and it's like you have to againgo back to.
(27:24):
You know what God has shown you, you know what to be true and
you have to walk it out anyways.
And that's where that characteris endured, because in the
midst of that you have toforgive all those people and
love them and I love them well,you know, and all those things.
And I think once you'vepersevered through that, that's
where that hope comes back.
But again, like throughexperience, it's not during the
(27:44):
trial, it's on the other side ofthe trial is when the hope's
restored.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
I think one thing also in the scripture, in I'm
sorry, verse five, it says hopedoes not disappoint, because the
love of God has been poured outwithin our hearts through the
Holy Spirit who was given to us,and I think that's such an
important piece not to miss,because that's what gets us
through.
Do you know what I'm saying?
I was trying to think ofearlier, like what, what
actually gets you through, getsyou to persevere, if you've not
(28:17):
really grasped onto that hopeyet to where you've not
persevered yet, how are youactually managing to get through
?
Well there's this initialexperience and encounter with
the believer, where the HolySpirit enters you, and this is
what it's talking about.
God doesn't.
How do we know?
(28:38):
How do we have trust and hopethat God doesn't disappoint?
Because the very first and mostprominent promise of him was
the gift of the Holy Spirit.
And if he has deposited himselfin you, that shows us that he's
trustworthy with his promises,because what more could he
promise than his own spirit?
(28:58):
to live in and dwell inside youas a temple.
So a lot of people miss that.
We forget about that part ofthe salvation, the born again
experience, as the driver of howwe can trust God.
Well, he's done two very, verybig things that are already
proven and have already happened.
That is, he came down in humanflesh.
(29:20):
He didn't have to do that Right, and he lived his life and was
crucified for us, for our sins,and so he has already proven
himself.
You know there.
And then, just as he promised,the Holy spirit will be given
and you will be filled withpower.
He has done that for those thatwill repent, believe and turn
(29:41):
to him.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
And so it's those things to me.
I think that that that is whyit says that hope does not
disappoint.
So there's a, there's a worldlyhope, where we hope in things
of the world, we hope in humanbeings, we hope this or that
will happen.
That does disappoint.
I think that's why it's it'sdifferentiating.
It's like giving you a contrastWorldly hope disappoints all
(30:03):
the time there's things everyday.
I'm disappointed in standards,that that don't get met.
All these different thingsdisappoint, but God does not
disappoint so that's why we canhope in.
Him.
What do you think are if youcan remember some of those
trials I also can share too butways that, or what were you
doing practically to get youthrough, to persevere through
(30:25):
those times where you justwanted to give up?
Speaker 1 (30:28):
I can tell you ways I didn't do it well that led to
ways that made me have to do itright.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
That's not a perfect journey.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
No, it's not.
So I think in the beginning,when, well, you know, I started
off, when we would get thesekinds of words that were
extremely discrediting ordiscouraging or completely
against what God had told us todo and we knew what he called us
to do Like I actually, like,kind of, would take them up for
(30:56):
the Lord and let them roll offif it doesn't stick, you know.
But when it continued to happenover and over and over again,
it's like almost like I begin togrow weary.
You know, I'm telling you,weariness is a toxicity to your
walk with God.
That's why Jesus says don't goweary and doing good.
But I allowed weariness tobecome a minister to me and I
(31:19):
became weary, which then stolemy prayer life, which then stole
my confidence and being able toeven hear God's voice and like
draw near to Him, and I feltdisqualified.
And it wasn't until and reallyhonestly, like I got really real
with the Lord, had a smallmental breakdown in the journey
(31:42):
of that that lasted about a weekand I got really real with the
Lord and he reminded me of allthe times he had called me to do
things and told me not to stopand to not give up.
And told me not to stop and tonot give up, and it wasn't until
(32:03):
I really got real with myselfand with God that I was dealing
with like I cared more aboutwhat people thought than what
God thought, and so it wasn'tuntil the moment that I, like,
really let that go and was likeLord I don't really care what
anybody else thinks anymore thatI had the ability to seek hope
again and that weariness beganto lift, because weariness comes
(32:26):
from your eyes are not on Jesus.
And so I took my eyes off Jesusand I began to put them on what
people were saying and thought,and I began to get tired
because I got into my flesh, youknow.
So I think for me, gettingrestored back to that place was
literally allowing the fear ofman to like subside from my life
(32:46):
and get my eyes back on Jesus,and honestly, having him tell me
, hey, job well done whereyou're at, like let's go to new
territory, brought hope as well.
You know what I'm saying.
So I think also just listeningto his voice and obeying those
things brought hope back to mylife, because it removed the
(33:10):
weariness, because I began tolike actually hear his voice
again and like not be soself-focused, if that makes
sense.
So when you start to seeyourself like like overanalyzing
yourself and nitpickingyourself or worried what this
person said and that person saidthat weariness literally takes
away all hope, weariness andhope they're, they're like
opposites, you know.
So you can't actually getthrough the through the journey
(33:33):
because weariness is like soheavy.
I don't know if this is fullymaking sense in my mind as I'm
explaining this, but, like in myheart, it's like I went from
weary because all I could thinkabout was how, how this hurt and
it affected me, to how no God'scalled me to this and there's a
world of dying people and Jesusis the answer, and I know Jesus
(33:55):
lives inside of me.
So it just was like aperspective shift, a focus shift
.
I had to get my eyes back onChrist and off of the situation
and what the naysayers weresaying.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah.
You know, I don't know if thatwas the answer to your question,
I think, just as Jesus says,the path is narrow right.
And the context of that youknow, speaking of, the way to
Christ is narrow, the way in isnarrow.
I think also the journey ofsalvation is narrow as well and
it's a path from from what I'veexperienced, that the lord you
(34:29):
do different things on that pathright you carry tools, you, but
you're moving in one direction,right, and it seems like I if I
could picture it like walkingthrough the woods.
There's all kinds of animals andsounds coming from the woods
and there's even if you've everbeen on a path and you're
(34:49):
walking in, the path is prettyclear, it's pretty drawn out.
But then there's this one likelittle path that goes off to the
side and for a moment you'relike is that the real path or is
that I feel?
Speaker 1 (35:00):
like that's what?
Speaker 2 (35:02):
in my understanding, that's what the walk of faith is
like, and every now and thenyou're just cruising along,
you're talking to your whateverand you accidentally get on that
wrong path and then it takesyou a minute but you realize, oh
crap, this is not the, this isnot the way that I'm supposed to
be going.
You know, you turn around andyou correct and stuff like that,
but on top of that there's allthese voices that are telling
(35:26):
you go this way, go that way, gothis way.
And I think the hardest thing todo in your walk of faith is to
discern the one thing, causeit's like to me I'm like gosh, I
don't, I don't want to like, Idon't want to tell you.
It seems like to the personthat's coming to you giving you
information of saying no, youdon't need to do this, you need
to do this.
And you tell them like no,that's not what God's telling me
to do.
It may seem like to them youjust don't want to hear anything
(35:48):
Rebellious.
Yeah, but you're the personthat knows.
Well, I also have had a hundredpeople tell me different things,
some of them right, some ofthem wrong in, and I am
personally responsible to God tofollow and do the things that
he has told me to do, even if itlooks unconventional.
So yeah, to me and my brain,that's how my, how my brain
(36:09):
works.
And that journey, that journeyof salvation, following Jesus,
listening to his voice.
But it seems like to me hedoesn't, he doesn't scream for
our attention.
And I think that's intentionalIntention, intentional for our
attention.
And I think that's intentionalIntention, intentional.
It's just like if you've everhad to fight for somebody's
intention, somebody's attention,sorry, you realize at a certain
(36:29):
point, when they're not payingattention, you're just like
whatever you know, like if youdon't want to listen, you don't
want to listen.
But I'm not going to sit hereand dance and like shake bells
for you.
And I think that's what a lot ofpeople expect with God, because
he could do it and he could doanything to get our attention
and I think he does sometimes,but in general, as a principal,
(36:49):
he's not out there dancing foryour attention because I think,
honestly, his presence is areward.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Do you know what I'm saying?
And so the attention that wegive him is not that he's any
closer and any farther away inproximity, but it's our
awareness of him Our sensitivityand so there's a reward for
seeking him, because we becomevery, very we have a heightened
awareness of his presence towhat we were saying a minute ago
(37:22):
is as I was processing kind ofwhat you were asking and what I
was thinking and trying toexplain is you know, in the
beginning, when God startedtelling us to do really crazy,
radical things, like selleverything you own and move
across the world, you know, topeople who don't speak English
or into places where it could beactually dangerous for you to
share the span Jesus with people, and you start getting people
saying like no, don't do this.
And some people's motives werepure, 100% pure.
(37:44):
They were worried for us, theywere afraid or it made them
uncomfortable.
So they were saying things outof their own discomfort or their
own fears.
But I think what happens is issome of those words were coming
from people that were not tooclose to you, you know.
So you can kind of roll off thebat.
But the enemy, if he can getinto someone's heart and mind
(38:06):
that's very near and dear to youand begin to speak through them
, that's when it can kind ofthrow you off track.
You know what I'm saying.
So that's what I think we sawIn the beginning.
It was like a few people likeoutsiders not really outsiders,
but acquaintances who you knew,loved God but like wasn't really
much invested in your life.
They're like, no, don't do this, and you can kind of let them
roll off.
But when it began to be peoplethat like you really love and
(38:27):
care about and they've spent alot of time with, like it hits
different.
And that's where you have toreally like again go back to
what has God spoken to me andobey that no matter what,
because I'm not accountable toJoe and Jennifer and Sally and
Kara.
I'm accountable to Jesus, youknow.
(38:48):
And so that's what I think I hadto originally go back to and
have to continue to go back toand not allow weariness to steal
my hope, because I think thesewords God gives us, that are
really big things that he's likehey, I really want you to
accomplish this in your lifetime, or this is your purpose.
It brings so much hope, andthen it would be just like the
(39:10):
enemy to come crap on your hope.
So be prepared for that.
Be prepared for somebody tocome tell you you're crazy, you
know.
Be prepared for somebody to say, like you're causing division
in the body of Christ or youdon't love the church, you know,
because you're stepping outsideof the four walls and you're
actually trying to just obey thesimplicity of what church is in
(39:31):
the Bible.
Stick to hold on to that word,to the, to the word that the
Lord gave you, because that'swhere your hope will come from
as you're going through thesetrials.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Staying focused.
Yes, and if possible, we wantto remind you.
We don't want to make it soundlike we're saying that this is
just.
You know one person don'tlisten to anybody.
What God says to you like this,is done best within community,
but a lot of people don't havethat.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
And so, um, but yes, the journey of perseverance and
tribulation is much easierwithin community when you have
people around you, uh,supporting you but it doesn't
always work out that way, itdidn't work out that way for
Paul all the time, uh, youdidn't have those people around
him.
And now, thankfully, we havetechnology so you can, can have
(40:16):
people that encourage you from adistance.
Um, so, for the people outthere that are like I'm all
alone and I'm the only personand nobody gets this, be
thankful that you actually havethis avenue, this podcast, like
people to reach out to.
that, you know, otherwise youcould really think you're crazy
because you could have nobodyand have no communication or
contact or understanding thatother people actually feel the
(40:39):
way you do.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
Just a different way to look at it.
I want to end with onepractical thing and then I'll
ask you one more question when Iwas reading this in Romans 5, I
spent a long time on just thefirst few verses this morning
while I was reading through itand I never understood.
Brooke, I don't know if youstill journal.
Do you journal a lot?
Okay, you are a big journaler.
Journal a lot.
Okay, you are a big journalerand a lot of people are and all
(41:02):
my Christian walk people havebeen trying to get me to journal
and.
I'm like I don't want tojournal.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Like it doesn't help me.
I'm like babe, write it down.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
But I think it was because people were saying
journal your prayers and I'mlike I'll just pray, I don't
need to write my prayers down.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
I like to journal my prayers.
No, it's cool and not go in andout of seasons of that.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
But yeah, if it works do it Like if it works for you
it didn't work for me.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
It keeps me focused.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
I felt like I'm like I could pray twice as much if I
wasn't right.
Yeah, anyway, there's going tobe people that out there that
get that, some that don't.
But anyway, I think I finallyunderstood this morning the
concept of why, why you wouldwould do that.
Uh, because it's an, it's asecond Avenue of communication
for what you're doing.
So if I just think my prayers,that's one Avenue.
(41:47):
If I speak them out, that's two.
If I think about them, speakthem out and write them, that's
three.
So there's something deeper thathappens when you use different
senses and different things toactually communicate something,
you process it more.
And I realized that when theLord gave me this idea this
morning and I was readingthrough the scripture and I was
having trouble understanding howcharacter connects to hope, and
(42:10):
the Lord was like, well, whydon't you and I use a laptop?
So I typed it out instead ofwriting it out.
But like, type out what youthink it means.
And so I started that processof trying to verbalize how I
understood it and what it didwas.
It caused me to slow down andhave to communicate it back to
myself.
And in the process ofcommunicating it back to myself
(42:32):
I actually learned.
He showed me the true meaningand because I did that, I could
then share it with you in a very, very simple way, in a very
clear way, as opposed to justreading it and moving on.
So maybe that's a tip that canis helpful for somebody.
If you need to write, write.
If you need to type, type, buttake a portion of scripture,
(42:54):
read through it and then try towrite out what that means and
how it all works together.
I don't know I just felt likethat could be helpful for
somebody, because it reallyhelped me.
It really helped me grasp itand I was like now this is such
a beautiful, beautiful piece ofscripture to me because, of how
thoroughly I understand it now,because I did that.
So just want to give that tipand before you have one question
(43:15):
, so you've touched on it, but Iwant to do this in a in a
succinct way.
If, if you could give a one, aone sentence piece of advice to
a person who is currently goingthrough a trial, a difficulty, a
situation, persecution, couldbe all of the above, and they're
feel like they're losing graspof hope, what would you say to
(43:37):
them?
Speaker 1 (43:39):
It's a heavy question .
I'm still caught up on the wordyou said succinct.
I don't know what that means.
Am I saying it right Like?
Speaker 2 (43:47):
yeah, succinct.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Like linked up.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
No, to me it means like condensed and clear.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Gotcha.
I was like I don't know whatthat word means.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Okay, this has been our nerdiest episode, I promise
you, because I've talked themost.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Yeah, he's an apostolic teacher of friends.
He ebbs and flows in thatgifting.
So re-ask me the question,justin.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Person out there?
Yeah, they're listening.
They're going through a trialand a tribulation right now.
People are coming against them,whatever that looks like.
It's just a difficult situation.
They're trying to hold on tohope, but they feel like it's
slipping out of their fingertipsand they don't know what to do.
And in one or two sentences, ina succinct, condensed, simple
way, what would you say to themin this place?
Speaker 1 (44:36):
I would say first, start with like just reminding
you you're not alone.
I think the biggest stiller ofhope, from my own experience, is
when the enemy whispers.
You're by yourself and no oneunderstands.
There are people who dounderstand, some that don't, but
people who do, you're not theonly one that the enemy is
(44:58):
trying to sift like wheat rightnow.
And, honestly, for me in thoseseasons, what brought me so much
encouragement was knowing thatI would make it through, knowing
that God was faithful, knowingthat it wasn't going to last
forever and this was just aseason, and knowing that on the
other side of this, that season,something good was coming,
(45:20):
going to come out of it.
And, and the sad thing is Ididn't, or the scary thing was
is I didn't even know how longthe season was going to last.
You know, and I think a lot oftimes we just pray that it'll
just be over with and be donewith.
But then I realized, like if Ijust rushed through it, I don't
actually change.
So just allow the process totake the process to fulfill its
(45:42):
purpose, um, but holding on tothe fact that it's not going to
last forever that's good so Ithink that's what the word of
advice I would give you, andjust stay prayed up.
Pray and what justin was talkingabout with journaling earlier
is such a amazing tool for mebecause I as a mom and I think
women maybe struggle with thismore than men I'm sure y'all do
(46:03):
too but I feel like for moms andwomen, we can think about a
hundred other things at one time.
I think for men, y'all are alittle bit more well.
For you, you're a little bitmore one-track minded, I think.
So that's not as hard for youpotentially not all men, but for
Justin particularly.
But for you potentially not allmen, but for Justin
particularly.
But for me I can be veryscatterbrained.
So writing down my prayers Idon't write down every little
(46:24):
prayer, but the ones that I knowGod wants me to focus on I
journal them out because itkeeps me focused, because
sometimes I could be prayingit's good stewardship.
Yeah, I could be praying aboutmy children and he's shown me
something for my kids and thenall of a sudden I'm thinking
about lunch and what we're goingto make and how I'm going to
get it done in a timely manner,you know.
(46:45):
So for me, writing it down isvery, very intentional and
prayerful, I mean, and helpfulfor me, and I also can go back
to journals that I've had whereI prayed prayers 13 years ago
that are now being answered, andthat just makes me excited.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
I was just.
I'm sorry, I was just thinkingabout you're thinking about
lunch.
I think about some of the funnystuff that I think of like I
get distracted with him.
I can't remember what I toldyou the other day.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
Yeah, he's like I was praying and then I was thinking
about, uh, like dinosaurs.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
Yeah, when it's early , you're like there's a dinosaur
and he was like riding aunicycle.
That's how my brain works.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Yeah, I'm like what?
Speaker 2 (47:21):
Yeah, that's true, yeah, but awesome.
That was the longest sentenceever, but it was good.
Thank you, it was a succinct,it was not.
It was not.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
I can't do that.
I don't understand the word andI definitely don't know how.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
to be sure I knew you couldn't, but I knew if I said
it it would be half as long asit originally would be.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
True story Love you, love you too.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
So appreciate you guys.
Thanks for being here and hopethat was helpful for you, I hope
that was helpful for you.
That's right A topic of hopethrough your trial if you're in
it or if it's around the corner,or if it's off in the distance
eventually you will go throughone.
You will persevere, you willhave faith in God.
And guess what?
Speaker 1 (48:02):
Like Brooke said, said there's an end.
Oh and there's an end.
There's an end in sight.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
That's right so appreciate you guys love you and
we'll see you in the nextepisode.
Bye.
People are going to come against you all the time.
You have to know what God hasspoken and said to you and not
let go of that thing, becausethe enemy's greatest tactic is
to keep you unproductive for thekingdom of God, because if you
are productive, lives will besaved.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
What were you doing practically to get you through
that, to persevere through thosetimes where you just wanted to
be loved?
Speaker 1 (00:19):
I started off would get these kind of words that
were extremely discrediting ordiscouraging or completely
against what God had told us todo, would take them up for the
Lord and let them roll off if itdoesn't stick.
But when it continued to happenover and over and over again,
it's like almost like Person outthere they're listening.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
They're going through a trial and a tribulation right
now.
People are coming against them.
It's just a difficult situation.
They're trying to hold on, tohope, but they feel like it's
slipping out of their fingertipsand they don't know what to do.
In one or two sentences, in asuccinct, condensed, simple way
what would you say to them inthis place?
Speaker 1 (00:54):
The biggest stealer of hope.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Welcome to the ReChurch Podcast.
If you're tired of business asusual Christianity and ready to
live like Jesus, you've foundyourself in the right place.
I'm here with my lovely wife,Brooke Brooke, say hello.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
You didn't call me the right name.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
The princess.
The princess.
I don't know if you're gettingsick of it or not.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yeah, sometimes, but not always.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Not getting lame yet Cool.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
That's hilarious.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I mean there could be new listeners.
I just want to make sureeverybody knows.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yeah, hi, I mean there could be new listeners.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
I just want to make sure everybody knows.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yeah, hi, the title, that's Rightfully.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yours, yeah.
But you know how we feel abouttitles on this podcast.
Yeah right, well, I'm glad youjoined us today.
Today we're going to be talkingabout hope.
Okay, and some people might askthe question how does that
relate to the ReChurch podcast,organic church discipleship, how
to you know previous podcastswe've had about the
institutional church system?
How does hope?
Well, I think it plays a veryimportant role because if hope
(01:50):
is taken hold of and cultivated,it can actually, it has the
power to anchor your soul andgive you strength through
tribulation, through trial,through difficult times and on
the opposite spectrum, if it'snot taken hold of right.
We know that Proverbs says hopedeferred can make the heart
sick, so it can have theopposite effect on you.
It can actually destroy you.
If you've ever had experienceswhere you've lacked hope.
(02:13):
It seems like you have nopurpose, you don't know which
way is up or down, you don'tknow where to go and you can't
find the motivation to evensometimes pray or talk to any of
those things.
So I realized this morning, inmy time with the Lord, what, not
only what a role hope playsaccording to the scripture, but
experientially as well in mylife and, I'm sure, in years.
(02:36):
In times where you've had hope,you feel energized, you feel
good, you feel like you can doanything, and in times when you
don't have it you feel stuck.
So today we're going to talkabout number one, the importance
of hope, which we've justtapped on.
We're going to talk about howto cultivate hope according to
Romans, chapter five, so that,not if, but when you go through
(03:01):
trials, you will have that hope,that anchor for your soul to
hang on to to get you through.
So I want to start by saying youknow, a lot of people that have
listened to this podcast havemessages, messages Either
they've commented down below orthey've.
They've personally emailed usDuring the middle of a
(03:22):
transition outside oftraditional church and some of
those people are dealing with,uh, you know, different,
different hurts and differentthings that they've.
They've experienced, mayberejection, stuff like that when
making that transition, becausepeople didn't respond to them
the way that they uh thought youknow was the right way or the
way that was the right way ingeneral, and so it's discouraged
them.
(03:42):
Way that they thought you knowwas the right way or the way
that was the right way ingeneral, and so it's discouraged
them.
Or maybe they got out and theythought it was going to be one
way and it's another, and so youknow what I'm saying.
So it it, can you take me backto the time where, where we were
kind of stepping out, maybesome of the first couple of
times that we experienced like,whoa, this maybe wasn't exactly
what we expected.
Maybe.
(04:03):
Here you go, here's a goodexample.
Maybe you thought people weregoing to receive it well and
they actually, instead of justnot receiving it, they came
against you when you were justtrying to follow Jesus.
I think a lot of peopleexperienced that.
What was that like and how didyou get hope in that situation?
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah, that's a loaded question, so give me a moment
to process through that.
Because, you know, when I firstmet the Lord, you have this zeal
for God and nobody can takethat away from you.
You know, no matter what, andyou know, I remember in the
beginning of my walk with theLord, um, I had somebody say to
(04:37):
me like, oh, you're just a newbaby believer.
I was just as excited as youwhenever I met Jesus and, like
within weeks of being born again, I realized like I have to
fight for this passion for therest of my life, you know,
because I don't want to turninto the person who's grown
older and lost their fire forGod or their purpose for the
(04:57):
Lord, you know.
So I realized that very earlyon in my walk that, like I have
to fight for this, I have tofight to obey the Lord, no
matter what I do.
Um, so I have fought to keepthat zeal and that excitement
and that passion for Jesusthroughout my journey.
And then it goes into, you know, you're in the institutional
church, we're leading worship.
Uh, we're working with theyouth where, you know, at the
(05:19):
young Mary's couple, we wereinvolved in everything.
I feel like, uh, because we hadsuch a heart for people to know
Jesus, like we had encounteredHim, and I remember during that
time process the Lord began tospeak to you and I about being
missionaries going overseas andit made no sense in a lot of
ways.
We were unqualified, we had noministry education, we had three
(05:43):
little kids and all the things,and we were young.
But we knew what God had toldus.
And I remember we received aphone call one day.
We were looking into differentministry schools to kind of go
through for training and someonegave us a phone number of a guy
and I think you maybe textedhim or reached out and said hey,
I would love to sit down andtalk to you.
We're thinking about going withthis school Like no, you've been
there, Can we have your insight?
(06:04):
And he called us and he gaveyou the most detrimental word
possible.
He told you that you were crazyfor selling everything, that we
should keep our house and useit as a rental property and have
thousands and thousands ofdollars in the bank before we
even think about leaving theStates and all of these things.
(06:25):
And all we know God was sayingwas sell everything and go.
And I remember you sitting inthe we had a white leather chair
at the time and you weresitting in that white leather
chair and you, kind of like, gotoff the phone and you crippled
over.
You were just crippled and youwere stuck and you were like, I
literally feel like Isaiah, theprophet, isaiah whenever Jezebel
(06:46):
, not Isaiah, yeah, isaiah.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
No, Elijah.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Um, I feel like the prophet Elijah, like I just got
a word from a prophet of Jezebeland it's just stolen all of my
passion for the Lord.
And so I remember speaking lifeinto you that day and I'm like
what has God said?
Let's remove the word from thisman.
What has the Lord spoken to you?
And you said he's told us to go, he's told us to go into all
(07:11):
the nations and preach thegospel.
And we moved forward anyways.
And I look back on thatconversation I'm like, thank God
, we moved forward anyways, eventhough it went against, in that
moment, somebody else's wisdom.
It wasn't the wisdom of theLord.
Justin and I if you haven't gotthe gist yet are a bit of
trailblazers.
We like to go hardcore first,into things headfirst, and we're
(07:36):
okay with like stubbing our toea little bit here and there,
we're okay with getting a littlebloody here and there and all
the things.
And so we've had a lot ofpeople come along our journey
and tell us like, oh, god toldme to tell you to stop what
you're doing, or you're aministry of the minister of the
devil and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and um, or this isn't
right.
And I just look back on myjourney and if I would have
really heat.
(07:56):
And there's been times.
The words hit harder sometimesand you have to really weigh the
word.
But after you receive the wordit stole all joy from your life,
all hope, all passionexcitement.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, that's a good point.
So, because you don't want tobe the person that just doesn't
receive anything and isquote-unquote, unteachable.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
That's for another conversation.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
But you also don't want to receive a word from any
little person, because you couldbe receiving a word from the
enemy something that completelyknocks you off track.
That's a tough, tough balanceto do 100%.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
So it's been trial and error.
You know, I look back and therehas been a few things that
people have told me that I'mlike, ooh, I wish I would listen
to their wisdom, um, but thenthere's words we've been given
that people claim is from theLord, and those words literally
like sabotage seasons of life,you know, and joy and peace and
all of the things that comethrough the Holy Spirit.
You know, can you get a wordfrom God that is extremely
(08:50):
convicting and like cuts you tothe heart, makes you bleed open
Absolutely, but those wordsbring good fruit.
You know, these words that wewere receiving were words that
felt very cutting, but the fruitthat was coming from the me,
even entertaining the words, wasnot life giving, it wasn't
fruitful, it was actuallystealing.
(09:12):
So that's how I had to kind ofdiscern and like walk things out
.
And so I think that in thosemoments, realizing you're not
going to feel lovey dovey duringthe process of sifting through
those words, but likepersevering through those things
, and as you persevere, godbegins to speak and confirm and
(09:32):
you get to the other side andthat's when hope's restored, not
really necessarily in the midstof the wrestle or the
transition, maybe you're leavinginstitutional church and it's
costing some relationshipsbecause people think you're
crazy and they don't want to gowith you.
And you thought they might,would come with you because they
love you and they said theyloved you or they said they
cared, but really when push cameto shove like they don't really
(09:54):
care as much about what youhave to say, now that you seem
or look crazy, or maybe theywould look crazy with going with
you.
So that's where perseveranceand steadfastness begins and
develops and character anddevelopment, all those things
and patience.
But it's not until you kind oflike get to the other side of
that moment in that trial, thatyou receive the hope that brings
(10:18):
joy.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Like the refinement it does and I think what I want
to do because you just laid outlike a real life experience of
obtaining hope through a trial,and I want to go back to the
scripture of Romans 5 because itactually walks us through that
process.
So I want to show everybody.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
And I, really quick, want to say one note before you
go there is this is somethingI'm still learning, you know
this is something we're stillgrasping and growing in.
I almost got tears in my eyeswhen I say that, because people
are going to come against youall the time and you have to
know what God has spoken andsaid to you and not let go of
that thing, because the enemy'sgreatest tactic is to keep you
(10:59):
unproductive for the kingdom ofGod, because if you are
productive, lives will be saved.
So you have to hold on to theword that the Lord gave you, but
also be willing to be taught bythe spirit First.
John 2 27 says let no man teachyou, but of the spirit.
Let the spirit of God be yourteacher.
So if God's not speaking it toyou and people just come out of
the blue and they're like I gotthis word from the Lord, from
(11:20):
you, and it's not anything he's,it's actually the polar
opposite of what he's speakingto you in your secret place,
like bless them, thank them,give it to God, but if it's not
from him, be okay with throwingit out and let the spirit be
your teacher.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
So that's so interesting.
We have a scripture that sayslet no man teach you, you know,
but yet the gift of teaching isthe most exalted gift which blew
my mind when you, you said thaton our last podcast, when I was
like wow, we call itshepherding.
We call it a pastor, but reallyhe's just a teacher on stage,
(11:54):
and so that gift is so exaltedin the church at large that it
takes over everything.
It creates the structure forour whole church system.
That's right.
Everything is based on thebalance, yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
You know.
So I think you know.
I didn't mean to cut you off onthat, but when you're talking
about that, I just get thispicture of like being so
unbalanced.
If you exalt one gift over theother or you try to build a
church on a teacher and notapostle and a prophet, you're
going to get extremelyknowledgeable people.
But knowledge brings pridewithout application.
So that's what where the churchis at large is like.
(12:29):
We have a lot of puffed uppeople, um, whether they're true
Christians, false Christians,professing Christians, or
they're just confused, or wolvesin sheep's clothing.
You get a bunch of puffed uppeople and we ended up doing
more damage than good.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, and I would even say that people and we end
up doing more damage than good.
Yeah, and I would even say thatmaybe some of them aren't
puffed up, but they're deceivedinto thinking that what they're
doing is the right model, it'sthe right thing and it's like
because this is what my callingis, my calling to be a pastor,
to do this, and so they're.
They're literally doing itbecause they want to be faithful
(13:03):
and they truly believe this iswhat God has called them to do.
And just because you have apassion in you to teach God's
people or to lead God's peopledoesn't mean that that position,
that man-made position wecreated, is the proper outlet.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
And so I think that's what a lot of people are waking
up to and I'm glad you saidthat before about like we want
you guys to know on this podcastwe're not perfect and that's
why we don't come on here andtry to speak at you, or or it's
not a channel that is meant toto go.
We'll get deep theologically,but we want to talk about real
(13:41):
life stuff in the application.
So the stuff, the conversationsthat we have, of course, are
going to have a scriptural basis.
To our best understanding,nobody has a perfect
interpretation of all ofscripture, but we're not here to
give you a Bible study.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah, you can find those everywhere.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
A dime, a dozen right we want to give you.
Basically, we want to staynarrow in the place that God has
used us the most, that we havesuccess in and experience in so
that we can help you along thatjourney, and that's why, we're
here, but this was powerful andthis is real life and this is,
you know, what I'm learningright now and what God has shown
us and what we've been throughin the past.
(14:20):
So in Romans, chapter five, it'sPaul's talking about
justification, from chapter fouron into five, and he says
therefore, having been justifiedby faith, we have peace with
God through our Lord, jesusChrist.
So I was looking at this, I wastrying to gain a picture of
this, because we've talked aboutthis with other people before,
and that is, there's so manywords that the Bible uses under
(14:44):
the umbrella of salvation.
It uses the word salvation, youhave been saved.
Right, it uses born again inJohn, chapter three.
It uses justification right,you're standing before God,
there's righteousness, there'ssanctification, there's
glorification, and you're likewhat is all this happening?
And so I actually drew thislittle picture this morning when
I was studying and it was likethis umbrella and I just this is
(15:11):
the picture I saw in my headLike when the umbrella is
salvation.
Salvation is is an umbrella term.
It encompasses a lot of things.
It's spoken of as past, presentand future in the scripture.
Right, you have been saved, youare being saved and you will be
saved.
You can find that allthroughout scripture and under
that umbrella of salvation arecertain things that happen Now.
The entry point to that is theborn again experience right,
(15:34):
when your spirit becomes renewed, when your spirit comes alive.
So born again is that entrypoint right Repentance, water,
baptism, faith in Christ,receiving the Holy Spirit,
entering into the journey ofsalvation.
That's why they call it the wayin the early church in the Bible
, and once you are born again,you are therefore, at that
beginning point, justified byGod.
(15:56):
And this is what Paul istalking about here.
He says past tense you havebeen justified with God.
What does that mean?
It means that we have peacewith God through our Lord Jesus
Christ.
So we were at enmity with God,we were his enemies, and now,
through the born againexperience, through entering in
to the family of God, we are nowjustified.
So you can hold on to that.
It's just a beautiful picture.
And then sanctification.
(16:17):
I have this line that extendsthroughout the umbrella, because
sanctification is a processthat starts at the born again
experience, it starts atjustification and it goes all
the way until the end, which isglorification right when we
enter into glory, when wereceive our new bodies, when we
meet christ face to face.
And then it's interesting.
(16:38):
I was looking at the umbrellathat I drew in.
At the very bottom there was alittle loop, and I was like, oh,
look, look at J for Jesus.
That is true, jesus is the onewho actually holds the umbrella.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
That's right, that's so good.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
And I'm sitting there , I'm thinking about it and the
Lord is just giving me thisrevelation, and then I see rain
coming down over the umbrellaand that was a picture of his
grace, because in a minute we'llread in Romans, chapter 5, that
all of this experience,entering into this experience
with God, is us standing in thegrace of God.
So I just pictured the grace ofGod like standing out in a
(17:09):
rainstorm.
That's so good.
The grace of God is theexperience of salvation.
That's what we experience whenwe receive salvation, so I hope
that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Yeah, powerful.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Cool.
So verse two, through whom,speaking of Jesus, we have also
obtained here.
It is our introduction by faith, into this grace in which we
stand and we exalt in hope ofthe glory of God.
And I feel like if you readthat, you skim over that.
It's just like a lot of wordsand they're jumbled together and
(17:39):
you're like what does that mean?
So I had to sit down and breakthat down earlier.
So it's our faith.
This is where I got thatpicture.
It's our faith.
That is the introduction intothe grace in which we stand.
Here's where hope enters thescene.
It says and we exalt in hope ofthe glory of God.
(18:01):
And I'm like why is thisportion of scripture exalt?
Like, why is it putting hopefirst and foremost?
Why not faith?
Why?
not salvation, why not grace?
Why is it hope?
And it goes on to say and notonly this, but we also exalt in
our tribulation.
So it's like, ok, we exalt inhope and we exalt in tribulation
.
Stick with me for a minute, Iknow we're getting a little, a
(18:21):
little wordy on this.
But the reason we exalt intribulations is this knowing
that tribulation brings aboutperseverance, and perseverance,
proven character, and provencharacter, hope.
So there is the thread, thetrail line of get you to point a
to point B.
And he says and hope does notdisappoint, because the love of
God has been poured out withinour hearts through the Holy
(18:43):
spirit who was given to us, for,while we were still helpless,
at the right time, christ diedfor the ungodly.
So what I want to talk about andwhat I want to break down today
, is that progression thatprogression that you explained
earlier, that you experiencedand that scripture takes us
through, because I feel like, atleast for me, I thought in the
(19:04):
beginning hope was something youjust had.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Like you get saved and you're like well, I really
appreciate it, jesus, you savedme.
I should have hope.
Yeah Right, but hope seems tobe this fleeting thing that it's
like we have it one minute andthen we don't.
But the scripture here istelling us that there's a
progression towards hope, likethere are steps to get to hope,
and the first step it talksabout is tribulation.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Lots of that.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
So, Paul, are you saying that?
I mean, I imagine in otherplaces of Scripture there's
other avenues to get to hope,but in this particular portion
of Scripture it's saying wedon't get to hope unless we
don't get to hope.
Unless, Unless.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Unless there's tribulation, why?
Speaker 2 (19:47):
do you think that is?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Because I think, you know, I think, when I think
about tribulation, tribulationcan be many things right,
situational things that come,and I think hope is in Jesus,
which I feel like is thatpicture of that J at the bottom
(20:12):
of the umbrella, you know, and II think that until you endure
trials, cause there is also ascripture that says if necessary
, Sure Peter.
Right, that that you can'treally understand hope until
you've endured those things.
You know what I mean, Because Ieven think of Christ.
Like he came to this earth, hehad the big picture in mind
(20:35):
before he even came rightWhether or not he understood as
a child, who knows but heunderstood that he had a purpose
and his purpose was to dowhatever he saw his father doing
and to reconcile mankind.
And like he literally says Icame to earth to preach and cast
out demons, to preach truth andpreach salvation and to deliver
people from the hands of theenemy.
(20:55):
I think that's a mark, maybe.
And he says those thingsbecause I think you can't really
experience full hope untilyou've experienced something
hard.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, you know.
Yeah, that's what the scripturesays here.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
It's just interesting .
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I was thinking as you were saying it.
I'm like.
You know how faith withoutaction is dead, dead.
Yeah, so it's like it's notthat your actions save you or
your actions are your faith, buttrue, genuine faith will
produce action.
That's right.
And then that's what James says.
Is he's like I'll show you myfaith by my action.
It's almost like I'll show youmy hope by my perseverance.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
That's so good and that's what I'm thinking Like.
Can you truly understand hopeunless you've gone through
something really hard, you know?
Speaker 2 (21:38):
We talked about this earlier.
I think hope is I think somepeople can genuinely have it.
Again just like people cangenuinely have faith before the
actions follow becausesequentially.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
There hasn't been time but it's hopefully
developed until you've gonethrough something hard.
Yes, that's good, it's matured,it's fully developed.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
So what that action does, of persevering through
tribulation, is it validates thehope.
God doesn't need the validationwe need the validation.
So what happens is we go throughthat progress of that
progression of tribulation,however long it takes, and then
(22:19):
in the tribulation, we perseverebecause we're trusting God,
which which you said, you know,which it goes back to um, what
are we hoping?
In Right, you know, we'rehoping in God, we're hoping that
what he says is true, becauseif what he says isn't true, then
we have no promise of all ofthese things.
We have no promise ofjustification, we have no
promise of sanctification, wehave no promise of salvation, we
(22:39):
have no promise ofglorification, of resurrection,
of future body of eternity.
All of these things fall apartif there is no substance to our
hope, which is what faith is.
Faith is the substance of thingshoped for, and so it's like
this whole ecosystem ofencompassing things.
But the Lord knows that we haveto actually experience
something before we can actuallyfully grasp it.
(23:05):
And it's so cool because itallows us, allows us to going
back to connecting with otherscriptures, it allows us to go
through something difficult andknow that there's something more
meaningful at the end.
Like what is it First Peterthat talks about?
through that, perseverance isthe testing of our faith Like
all this stuff connectsthroughout scripture and at the
(23:27):
end, Like all this stuffconnects throughout scripture
and at the end, if you persevere, then it's like purified.
Your faith is purified likegold.
What does Jesus say to thechurches in the book of
Revelation?
The promises are to who?
The one who didn't make?
Speaker 1 (23:40):
it.
Do you know what I'm saying?
We were talking about this.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
The other day.
Neil had mentioned something inhis podcast that I didn't see
in scripture.
I had to look it up.
I'm like where is that?
He was like you know, you'llhave new names.
You'll have a new name inheaven.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
And I'm like where is that?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
And he does, he talks about.
To the one who perseveres uh,you have a new name that you?
don't even name when we get toheaven, it's pretty wild.
So that made more sense to mewhen I started to look at that
(24:14):
particular scripture.
And now it's interesting howcharacter comes into this,
because it's not just, it's notjust tribulation, it's not just
perseverance, and theperseverance leads to hope.
There's something else in themiddle of that and that is not
character, proven character, butagain, who are we proving it to
?
Are we proving to God?
(24:34):
We have good character To me.
I read that and I'm thinking Godknows, he knows our hearts like
he knows we're proving toourselves like that Well, we're
just proving in general that ourcharacter is real, because you
can say all you want like I'mhumble.
Or you can think that you'regodly, you're humble, you're all
(24:57):
of these things, but until thatthing is tested, you don't
truly know.
Until Abraham actually did whathe did.
He raised the knife Like hedidn't know that he would
genuinely go through with it,and you had to trust God in that
.
So, it's just cool to see that alot of people don't see the
Bible as that practical ofshowing you the journey of how
to get to a place.
(25:17):
We just use all this Christianease and we're like well, have
hope in God, and you're like OK.
And it's just this weird theorything that we go back and forth
with Right and again going backto why this is important and
important on this podcast, isthat not only is every single
Christian going to experiencethis, whatever form of church
you are part of, but a lot ofpeople coming out of the
(25:40):
institutional system and goinginto a more organic way of doing
church are going to experiencethis for sure, 100%.
You're going to experience thisfor sure, 100%.
You're going to experience itthrough trial and tribulation
that comes against you by thereligious who don't agree with
what you're doing or condemnwhat you're doing when you're
just trying to follow Jesus.
And you're going to go throughit, when things get difficult
(26:02):
because you're doing somethingthat's new to you, old to the
Bible, new to you, but thatactually takes genuine work.
Like the relationships take work.
The seeking God takes work.
Like all of this stuff is it'snot easier.
You don't do it because it'seasier.
You do it because it's what Godactually calls us to do.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Well, you do it because it's going to be the
most fruitful thing to do Notnecessarily the easiest thing to
do.
I think about, you know, havingchildren it to do.
I think about you know, havingchildren, um, it's the most
refining thing in the world.
Having a child, you know, and Ithink that's why the Lord's
like go, be fruitful andmultiply, because he knows being
a mother and a father is achallenging task, but it is the
(26:39):
most rewarding task you'll everdo, um and the most fruitful
task you'll ever do, um.
So I think that's why, when weare pursuing the Lord and he
calls us to do things that maybe outside of the box of
tradition, uh, it gets a lot ofkickback.
Because I'm.
I just want to be really clear.
Like, religion will be yourbiggest enemy in this walk of
(27:02):
being led of the spirit.
Things that are of the spirittruly offend things that are of
religion.
So those religious words orpeople or spirits will tell you
this isn't of the Lord, or thisis unbiblical, or you're
heretical, or you're critical,or you're this or you're that,
and it's like you have to againgo back to.
(27:24):
You know what God has shown you, you know what to be true and
you have to walk it out anyways.
And that's where that characteris endured, because in the
midst of that you have toforgive all those people and
love them and I love them well,you know, and all those things.
And I think once you'vepersevered through that, that's
where that hope comes back.
But again, like throughexperience, it's not during the
(27:44):
trial, it's on the other side ofthe trial is when the hope's
restored.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
I think one thing also in the scripture, in I'm
sorry, verse five, it says hopedoes not disappoint, because the
love of God has been poured outwithin our hearts through the
Holy Spirit who was given to us,and I think that's such an
important piece not to miss,because that's what gets us
through.
Do you know what I'm saying?
I was trying to think ofearlier, like what, what
actually gets you through, getsyou to persevere, if you've not
(28:17):
really grasped onto that hopeyet to where you've not
persevered yet, how are youactually managing to get through
?
Well there's this initialexperience and encounter with
the believer, where the HolySpirit enters you, and this is
what it's talking about.
God doesn't.
How do we know?
(28:38):
How do we have trust and hopethat God doesn't disappoint?
Because the very first and mostprominent promise of him was
the gift of the Holy Spirit.
And if he has deposited himselfin you, that shows us that he's
trustworthy with his promises,because what more could he
promise than his own spirit?
(28:58):
to live in and dwell inside youas a temple.
So a lot of people miss that.
We forget about that part ofthe salvation, the born again
experience, as the driver of howwe can trust God.
Well, he's done two very, verybig things that are already
proven and have already happened.
That is, he came down in humanflesh.
(29:20):
He didn't have to do that Right, and he lived his life and was
crucified for us, for our sins,and so he has already proven
himself.
You know there.
And then, just as he promised,the Holy spirit will be given
and you will be filled withpower.
He has done that for those thatwill repent, believe and turn
(29:41):
to him.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
And so it's those things to me.
I think that that that is whyit says that hope does not
disappoint.
So there's a, there's a worldlyhope, where we hope in things
of the world, we hope in humanbeings, we hope this or that
will happen.
That does disappoint.
I think that's why it's it'sdifferentiating.
It's like giving you a contrastWorldly hope disappoints all
(30:03):
the time there's things everyday.
I'm disappointed in standards,that that don't get met.
All these different thingsdisappoint, but God does not
disappoint so that's why we canhope in.
Him.
What do you think are if youcan remember some of those
trials I also can share too butways that, or what were you
doing practically to get youthrough, to persevere through
(30:25):
those times where you justwanted to give up?
Speaker 1 (30:28):
I can tell you ways I didn't do it well that led to
ways that made me have to do itright.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
That's not a perfect journey.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
No, it's not.
So I think in the beginning,when, well, you know, I started
off, when we would get thesekinds of words that were
extremely discrediting ordiscouraging or completely
against what God had told us todo and we knew what he called us
to do Like I actually, like,kind of, would take them up for
(30:56):
the Lord and let them roll offif it doesn't stick, you know.
But when it continued to happenover and over and over again,
it's like almost like I begin togrow weary.
You know, I'm telling you,weariness is a toxicity to your
walk with God.
That's why Jesus says don't goweary and doing good.
But I allowed weariness tobecome a minister to me and I
(31:19):
became weary, which then stolemy prayer life, which then stole
my confidence and being able toeven hear God's voice and like
draw near to Him, and I feltdisqualified.
And it wasn't until and reallyhonestly, like I got really real
with the Lord, had a smallmental breakdown in the journey
(31:42):
of that that lasted about a weekand I got really real with the
Lord and he reminded me of allthe times he had called me to do
things and told me not to stopand to not give up.
And told me not to stop and tonot give up, and it wasn't until
(32:03):
I really got real with myselfand with God that I was dealing
with like I cared more aboutwhat people thought than what
God thought, and so it wasn'tuntil the moment that I, like,
really let that go and was likeLord I don't really care what
anybody else thinks anymore thatI had the ability to seek hope
again and that weariness beganto lift, because weariness comes
(32:26):
from your eyes are not on Jesus.
And so I took my eyes off Jesusand I began to put them on what
people were saying and thought,and I began to get tired
because I got into my flesh, youknow.
So I think for me, gettingrestored back to that place was
literally allowing the fear ofman to like subside from my life
(32:46):
and get my eyes back on Jesus,and honestly, having him tell me
, hey, job well done whereyou're at, like let's go to new
territory, brought hope as well.
You know what I'm saying.
So I think also just listeningto his voice and obeying those
things brought hope back to mylife, because it removed the
(33:10):
weariness, because I began tolike actually hear his voice
again and like not be soself-focused, if that makes
sense.
So when you start to seeyourself like like overanalyzing
yourself and nitpickingyourself or worried what this
person said and that person saidthat weariness literally takes
away all hope, weariness andhope they're, they're like
opposites, you know.
So you can't actually getthrough the through the journey
(33:33):
because weariness is like soheavy.
I don't know if this is fullymaking sense in my mind as I'm
explaining this, but, like in myheart, it's like I went from
weary because all I could thinkabout was how, how this hurt and
it affected me, to how no God'scalled me to this and there's a
world of dying people and Jesusis the answer, and I know Jesus
(33:55):
lives inside of me.
So it just was like aperspective shift, a focus shift
.
I had to get my eyes back onChrist and off of the situation
and what the naysayers weresaying.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah.
You know, I don't know if thatwas the answer to your question,
I think, just as Jesus says,the path is narrow right.
And the context of that youknow, speaking of, the way to
Christ is narrow, the way in isnarrow.
I think also the journey ofsalvation is narrow as well and
it's a path from from what I'veexperienced, that the lord you
(34:29):
do different things on that pathright you carry tools, you, but
you're moving in one direction,right, and it seems like I if I
could picture it like walkingthrough the woods.
There's all kinds of animals andsounds coming from the woods
and there's even if you've everbeen on a path and you're
(34:49):
walking in, the path is prettyclear, it's pretty drawn out.
But then there's this one likelittle path that goes off to the
side and for a moment you'relike is that the real path or is
that I feel?
Speaker 1 (35:00):
like that's what?
Speaker 2 (35:02):
in my understanding, that's what the walk of faith is
like, and every now and thenyou're just cruising along,
you're talking to your whateverand you accidentally get on that
wrong path and then it takesyou a minute but you realize, oh
crap, this is not the, this isnot the way that I'm supposed to
be going.
You know, you turn around andyou correct and stuff like that,
but on top of that there's allthese voices that are telling
(35:26):
you go this way, go that way, gothis way.
And I think the hardest thing todo in your walk of faith is to
discern the one thing, causeit's like to me I'm like gosh, I
don't, I don't want to like, Idon't want to tell you.
It seems like to the personthat's coming to you giving you
information of saying no, youdon't need to do this, you need
to do this.
And you tell them like no,that's not what God's telling me
to do.
It may seem like to them youjust don't want to hear anything
(35:48):
Rebellious.
Yeah, but you're the personthat knows.
Well, I also have had a hundredpeople tell me different things,
some of them right, some ofthem wrong in, and I am
personally responsible to God tofollow and do the things that
he has told me to do, even if itlooks unconventional.
So yeah, to me and my brain,that's how my, how my brain
(36:09):
works.
And that journey, that journeyof salvation, following Jesus,
listening to his voice.
But it seems like to me hedoesn't, he doesn't scream for
our attention.
And I think that's intentionalIntention, intentional for our
attention.
And I think that's intentionalIntention, intentional.
It's just like if you've everhad to fight for somebody's
intention, somebody's attention,sorry, you realize at a certain
(36:29):
point, when they're not payingattention, you're just like
whatever you know, like if youdon't want to listen, you don't
want to listen.
But I'm not going to sit hereand dance and like shake bells
for you.
And I think that's what a lot ofpeople expect with God, because
he could do it and he could doanything to get our attention
and I think he does sometimes,but in general, as a principal,
(36:49):
he's not out there dancing foryour attention because I think,
honestly, his presence is areward.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Do you know what I'm saying?
And so the attention that wegive him is not that he's any
closer and any farther away inproximity, but it's our
awareness of him Our sensitivityand so there's a reward for
seeking him, because we becomevery, very we have a heightened
awareness of his presence towhat we were saying a minute ago
(37:22):
is as I was processing kind ofwhat you were asking and what I
was thinking and trying toexplain is you know, in the
beginning, when God startedtelling us to do really crazy,
radical things, like selleverything you own and move
across the world, you know, topeople who don't speak English
or into places where it could beactually dangerous for you to
share the span Jesus with people, and you start getting people
saying like no, don't do this.
And some people's motives werepure, 100% pure.
(37:44):
They were worried for us, theywere afraid or it made them
uncomfortable.
So they were saying things outof their own discomfort or their
own fears.
But I think what happens is issome of those words were coming
from people that were not tooclose to you, you know.
So you can kind of roll off thebat.
But the enemy, if he can getinto someone's heart and mind
(38:06):
that's very near and dear to youand begin to speak through them
, that's when it can kind ofthrow you off track.
You know what I'm saying.
So that's what I think we sawIn the beginning.
It was like a few people likeoutsiders not really outsiders,
but acquaintances who you knew,loved God but like wasn't really
much invested in your life.
They're like, no, don't do this, and you can kind of let them
roll off.
But when it began to be peoplethat like you really love and
(38:27):
care about and they've spent alot of time with, like it hits
different.
And that's where you have toreally like again go back to
what has God spoken to me andobey that no matter what,
because I'm not accountable toJoe and Jennifer and Sally and
Kara.
I'm accountable to Jesus, youknow.
(38:48):
And so that's what I think I hadto originally go back to and
have to continue to go back toand not allow weariness to steal
my hope, because I think thesewords God gives us, that are
really big things that he's likehey, I really want you to
accomplish this in your lifetime, or this is your purpose.
It brings so much hope, andthen it would be just like the
(39:10):
enemy to come crap on your hope.
So be prepared for that.
Be prepared for somebody tocome tell you you're crazy, you
know.
Be prepared for somebody to say, like you're causing division
in the body of Christ or youdon't love the church, you know,
because you're stepping outsideof the four walls and you're
actually trying to just obey thesimplicity of what church is in
(39:31):
the Bible.
Stick to hold on to that word,to the, to the word that the
Lord gave you, because that'swhere your hope will come from
as you're going through thesetrials.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Staying focused.
Yes, and if possible, we wantto remind you.
We don't want to make it soundlike we're saying that this is
just.
You know one person don'tlisten to anybody.
What God says to you like this,is done best within community,
but a lot of people don't havethat.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
And so, um, but yes, the journey of perseverance and
tribulation is much easierwithin community when you have
people around you, uh,supporting you but it doesn't
always work out that way, itdidn't work out that way for
Paul all the time, uh, youdidn't have those people around
him.
And now, thankfully, we havetechnology so you can, can have
(40:16):
people that encourage you from adistance.
Um, so, for the people outthere that are like I'm all
alone and I'm the only personand nobody gets this, be
thankful that you actually havethis avenue, this podcast, like
people to reach out to.
that, you know, otherwise youcould really think you're crazy
because you could have nobodyand have no communication or
contact or understanding thatother people actually feel the
(40:39):
way you do.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
Just a different way to look at it.
I want to end with onepractical thing and then I'll
ask you one more question when Iwas reading this in Romans 5, I
spent a long time on just thefirst few verses this morning
while I was reading through itand I never understood.
Brooke, I don't know if youstill journal.
Do you journal a lot?
Okay, you are a big journaler.
Journal a lot.
Okay, you are a big journalerand a lot of people are and all
(41:02):
my Christian walk people havebeen trying to get me to journal
and.
I'm like I don't want tojournal.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Like it doesn't help me.
I'm like babe, write it down.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
But I think it was because people were saying
journal your prayers and I'mlike I'll just pray, I don't
need to write my prayers down.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
I like to journal my prayers.
No, it's cool and not go in andout of seasons of that.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
But yeah, if it works do it Like if it works for you
it didn't work for me.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
It keeps me focused.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
I felt like I'm like I could pray twice as much if I
wasn't right.
Yeah, anyway, there's going tobe people that out there that
get that, some that don't.
But anyway, I think I finallyunderstood this morning the
concept of why, why you wouldwould do that.
Uh, because it's an, it's asecond Avenue of communication
for what you're doing.
So if I just think my prayers,that's one Avenue.
(41:47):
If I speak them out, that's two.
If I think about them, speakthem out and write them, that's
three.
So there's something deeper thathappens when you use different
senses and different things toactually communicate something,
you process it more.
And I realized that when theLord gave me this idea this
morning and I was readingthrough the scripture and I was
having trouble understanding howcharacter connects to hope, and
(42:10):
the Lord was like, well, whydon't you and I use a laptop?
So I typed it out instead ofwriting it out.
But like, type out what youthink it means.
And so I started that processof trying to verbalize how I
understood it and what it didwas.
It caused me to slow down andhave to communicate it back to
myself.
And in the process ofcommunicating it back to myself
(42:32):
I actually learned.
He showed me the true meaningand because I did that, I could
then share it with you in a very, very simple way, in a very
clear way, as opposed to justreading it and moving on.
So maybe that's a tip that canis helpful for somebody.
If you need to write, write.
If you need to type, type, buttake a portion of scripture,
(42:54):
read through it and then try towrite out what that means and
how it all works together.
I don't know I just felt likethat could be helpful for
somebody, because it reallyhelped me.
It really helped me grasp itand I was like now this is such
a beautiful, beautiful piece ofscripture to me because, of how
thoroughly I understand it now,because I did that.
So just want to give that tipand before you have one question
(43:15):
, so you've touched on it, but Iwant to do this in a in a
succinct way.
If, if you could give a one, aone sentence piece of advice to
a person who is currently goingthrough a trial, a difficulty, a
situation, persecution, couldbe all of the above, and they're
feel like they're losing graspof hope, what would you say to
(43:37):
them?
Speaker 1 (43:39):
It's a heavy question .
I'm still caught up on the wordyou said succinct.
I don't know what that means.
Am I saying it right Like?
Speaker 2 (43:47):
yeah, succinct.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Like linked up.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
No, to me it means like condensed and clear.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Gotcha.
I was like I don't know whatthat word means.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Okay, this has been our nerdiest episode, I promise
you, because I've talked themost.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Yeah, he's an apostolic teacher of friends.
He ebbs and flows in thatgifting.
So re-ask me the question,justin.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Person out there?
Yeah, they're listening.
They're going through a trialand a tribulation right now.
People are coming against them,whatever that looks like.
It's just a difficult situation.
They're trying to hold on tohope, but they feel like it's
slipping out of their fingertipsand they don't know what to do.
And in one or two sentences, ina succinct, condensed, simple
way, what would you say to themin this place?
Speaker 1 (44:36):
I would say first, start with like just reminding
you you're not alone.
I think the biggest stiller ofhope, from my own experience, is
when the enemy whispers.
You're by yourself and no oneunderstands.
There are people who dounderstand, some that don't, but
people who do, you're not theonly one that the enemy is
(44:58):
trying to sift like wheat rightnow.
And, honestly, for me in thoseseasons, what brought me so much
encouragement was knowing thatI would make it through, knowing
that God was faithful, knowingthat it wasn't going to last
forever and this was just aseason, and knowing that on the
other side of this, that season,something good was coming,
(45:20):
going to come out of it.
And, and the sad thing is Ididn't, or the scary thing was
is I didn't even know how longthe season was going to last.
You know, and I think a lot oftimes we just pray that it'll
just be over with and be donewith.
But then I realized, like if Ijust rushed through it, I don't
actually change.
So just allow the process totake the process to fulfill its
(45:42):
purpose, um, but holding on tothe fact that it's not going to
last forever that's good so Ithink that's what the word of
advice I would give you, andjust stay prayed up.
Pray and what justin was talkingabout with journaling earlier
is such a amazing tool for mebecause I as a mom and I think
women maybe struggle with thismore than men I'm sure y'all do
(46:03):
too but I feel like for moms andwomen, we can think about a
hundred other things at one time.
I think for men, y'all are alittle bit more well.
For you, you're a little bitmore one-track minded, I think.
So that's not as hard for youpotentially not all men, but for
Justin particularly.
But for you potentially not allmen, but for Justin
particularly.
But for me I can be veryscatterbrained.
So writing down my prayers Idon't write down every little
(46:24):
prayer, but the ones that I knowGod wants me to focus on I
journal them out because itkeeps me focused, because
sometimes I could be prayingit's good stewardship.
Yeah, I could be praying aboutmy children and he's shown me
something for my kids and thenall of a sudden I'm thinking
about lunch and what we're goingto make and how I'm going to
get it done in a timely manner,you know.
(46:45):
So for me, writing it down isvery, very intentional and
prayerful, I mean, and helpfulfor me, and I also can go back
to journals that I've had whereI prayed prayers 13 years ago
that are now being answered, andthat just makes me excited.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
I was just.
I'm sorry, I was just thinkingabout you're thinking about
lunch.
I think about some of the funnystuff that I think of like I
get distracted with him.
I can't remember what I toldyou the other day.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
Yeah, he's like I was praying and then I was thinking
about, uh, like dinosaurs.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
Yeah, when it's early , you're like there's a dinosaur
and he was like riding aunicycle.
That's how my brain works.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Yeah, I'm like what?
Speaker 2 (47:21):
Yeah, that's true, yeah, but awesome.
That was the longest sentenceever, but it was good.
Thank you, it was a succinct,it was not.
It was not.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
I can't do that.
I don't understand the word andI definitely don't know how.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
to be sure I knew you couldn't, but I knew if I said
it it would be half as long asit originally would be.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
True story Love you, love you too.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
So appreciate you guys.
Thanks for being here and hopethat was helpful for you, I hope
that was helpful for you.
That's right A topic of hopethrough your trial if you're in
it or if it's around the corner,or if it's off in the distance
eventually you will go throughone.
You will persevere, you willhave faith in God.
And guess what?
Speaker 1 (48:02):
Like Brooke said, said there's an end.
Oh and there's an end.
There's an end in sight.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
That's right so appreciate you guys love you and
we'll see you in the nextepisode.
Bye.
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