January 7, 2025 • 68 mins
Was Church leadership mean to be a hierarchy? Why is the Church system failing us? Where do we find a Senior Pastor in the bible? What are the 5-fold gifts and are they still for today? Should Church leaders carry title?
These are all valid questions, and questions many might deem dangerous. Today on the reChurch Podcast we break down what the Bible actually says about leadership in the Church and how the 5-fold gifts were designed to function.
This is a deep episode, so relax, grab a seat, turn on your ears and prepare for action. Today we talk Church leadership.
📚 Recommended Resources from Neil to dive deeper into Organic/Simple Church:
👉 Organic Church by Neil Cole: https://amzn.to/40MylbU
👉 Organic Leadership by Neil Cole: https://amzn.to/3UMxF2o
👉 Primal Fire (Book to be re-released - link coming soon)
Connect with Neil: https://starlinginitiatives.com/
✅ Follow Justin:
https://www.instagram.com/justin.knoop
https://www.youtube.com/@reChurchPodcast
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And I had just been in a conference where both of us
were speaking.
He doesn't know me at the time.
I knew of him because he was apastor in a huge church.
He was asking questions fromthe pulpit that are dangerous.
What is the church really?
Why do we do church the way wedo?
The Bible doesn't describe it.
I emailed his office to see ifhe would write the foreword in,
and I got an immediate and verycourteous response from his
(00:21):
secretary who said no, francisdoesn't do that kind of thing.
Then the next day I got anemail from the same secretary
saying send the manuscript, buthe probably won't read it.
He definitely won't write aphoto.
And then the next day I gotanother email and the email was
from Francis.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
And he says what does it look like moving forward
with seeing those gifts arisewithout there being just a bunch
of self-appointed people?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
How do the APES gifts emerge in a healthy way.
It's the hierarchicalexpression of church that's the
problem.
Whether you put an evangelistat the top of the pyramid or a
teacher at the top of thepyramid, or an apostle at the
top of the pyramid, whoever's atthe top of the pyramid is
making a mistake, because it'sthe pyramid that's the problem
what gifts have we sidelined andhow do we get back to seeing
them all utilized?
The word pastor as a nounapplied to someone other than
(01:07):
Jesus in the New Testament isonly one time, and that's
Ephesians.
That's enough to know there areshepherds.
So I'm not discounting, but tomake that the only role.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Welcome to the ReChurch podcast.
If you're tired of a businessas usual Christianity and you're
ready to live like Jesus, youfind yourself in the right place
.
And today we're missing oneperson, missing who I like to
call my princess of a wife, mybeautiful wife.
But I am here again, once againwith Neil Cole, and so grateful
to have him back.
Last episode we got into thedepths of Organic Church 101,
(01:44):
I'd probably call it and it wasjust a beautiful conversation.
So if you missed that,definitely go back and check out
that first episode.
But, neil, glad to have youback today.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
It's great to be with you, man.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Awesome, so super excited about today's
conversation.
Moving from that whole, whatOrganic Church looks like, maybe
some of the nuances of gettingstarted, the DNA multiplication
kind of the heartbeat behind itI'd love to get into a question
that comes up a lot with ouraudience, or question, should I
(02:16):
say, and that is what does itlook like for leadership to
emerge from that organic place,very different from what we
probably you and I, a lot ofpeople experience in the church
at large?
You did write a.
Well, you've got two books.
You've got a book specificallyon called Organic Leadership
that you wrote after OrganicChurch, but then maybe we can,
(02:39):
we can touch on that a littlebit.
And then you've also got a bookcalled Primal Fire, which went
out of print but is going to bere-released soon, that you wrote
on the five-fold ministry.
Um, so I'd love to chat a bitabout that today.
Can you tell me first off we'llhit this first what was your
main purpose in in in writingorganic leadership after organic
(03:01):
church?
What do you remember?
What kind of brought you tothat point of thinking that
would be yeah, so my, my missionstatement for life is to
reproduce healthy disciples yeahleaders, churches and movements
, and it must go in that order.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
So all of our training was developed around
that.
So the first round of ourtraining was starting a new
church, organic church, bymaking disciples from lost
people.
But then we had a second roundof training that we called the
second story and that was aboutdeveloping leaders and movements
and networks.
(03:38):
And so when organic church cameout, that was just basically
the first round of training yeah, organic leadership and church
3.0, yep, uh, were the secondround and primal fire is a part
of that.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
But primal fire developed much more after our
training, uh, much beyond ourtraining yeah so it's, it's much
more yeah, I'm actually, aswe're like, discussing, my brain
is moving real time to see likeI don't want to skip over the
natural progression of theleadership aspect.
So, if you could just touch onbriefly, what does it look like
(04:15):
for leadership to emerge out ofan organic community?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Well, first of all and it's hard for people to get
this in their imagination wehave to not be hierarchical.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
So Jesus is quite clear over and over again that
the first are last, the last arefirst.
There's no hierarchy, there isno stages of leadership where
you get higher and higher in thepyramid.
That is in the world.
In fact he says in the worldyou have those who exercise
great authority over others, andit is not to be so among you
(04:49):
yeah and anytime the disciplesstart scrambling to get to the
top, he he cuts them downbecause that's not what his
kingdom is meant to be.
Right, but it is the way.
Everything else is in the worldSchool is like that, military
is like that, government is likethat, business is like that.
Everything you look at ishierarchical.
(05:12):
So it's natural for people totry to make the church that way.
It violates what Jesus said.
And so what we do is we say, ha, there are elders, therefore
there are leaders, thereforethere's a hierarchy.
And so what we do is we say, ha, there are elders, therefore
there are leaders, thereforethere's a hierarchy.
And that's a leap of logic.
(05:33):
That isn't necessary.
You can have elders and nothave a hierarchy.
So, in fact, there's versesthat get us in trouble because
they say you know, respect thosewho are given the task of being
over you.
Well, the word over doesn'texist there in the text.
It's to be before, and thatdoesn't mean in the pulpit and
standing in front of people.
It means to go first down thepath towards Jesus.
(05:54):
That's what a leader is, that'swhat an elder is, that's what
somebody who is leading othersis they're pioneering a trail
towards.
Jesus that you can follow.
And Paul says as I follow me,only as I follow Christ.
The moment I veer off, youleave me and you follow Christ.
Yeah.
That is.
(06:15):
That is what organic leadershipis.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, why do you think it is that?
Um, it makes people and I seenthis very early on in the
scriptures that, uh, leadershipwasn't something that they
started with, it wasn'tsomething that you know.
They recognize the works thatwere going on in.
Antioch and and and they werelike, oh, let's, hey, who's
who's the elder and stuff, likeit was something that emerged
(06:39):
over time.
Why do you think we have thisobsession with starting with
leadership as opposed to lettingit develop organically?
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Well, I think there's a lot of answers to that
question.
One is we think somebody's gotto get the job done, and so we
call them a leader, and it'spractical in that regard.
We all have aspirations andegos and we want to have, we
want to aspire to have peoplelike us, respect us, pay us,
(07:12):
give us security, give us asense of identity.
Yeah, so that drives us as well.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah, do you think that, with the way that
leadership, the way that we'veturned kind of leadership into
(07:37):
careers, I know you wrote andthis is going to another book
that you wrote called ChurchTransfusion have you and this
might be a side topic, but haveyou seen people because have you
seen anybody that has has takenleadership on as a career in
the church actually make thatshift over, and would you say
that that's one of the mainfactors that a lot of people in
(07:59):
those positions I say inquotation marks have a
difficulty in receiving themessage of what true organic
leadership looks like in theBible?
Speaker 1 (08:10):
You mean make a shift from institutional hierarchical
leadership to organic.
Yes, oh yeah, I've seen manymake that switch yeah.
Yeah.
One in particular that everyoneknows.
I've watched as Francis Chanmade that shift, that's true,
yeah, that everyone knows.
I've watched as Francis Chanmade that shift.
That's true, yeah, so when Iwrote Church 3.0, my publisher
asked me who you wanted to writethe foreword and I had just
(08:33):
been at a conference where bothof us were speaking and he
doesn't know me at the time.
I knew of him because he waspastoring a huge church.
He's in California.
Yeah, he's still in California.
But he was in Simi Valley and hewas asking questions from the
pulpit that are dangerous.
Sure, what is a church really,and why do we do church the way
(08:57):
we do when the Bible doesn'tdescribe it?
So I knew he was alreadythinking, so I said why don't we
let him read this book andwrite a forward?
yeah and the publisher said, oh,he doesn't do that kind of
thing.
So he said but if you want totry, go ahead.
So I got, I emailed his officeto see if he would write the
forward and I don't think I'veever told this story I hope I
(09:18):
don't get in trouble or somebodyelse in trouble but I I sent an
email and I got an immediateand and very courteous response
from his secretary who said, no,francis doesn't do that kind of
thing.
So I thought, oh, they wereright.
Then the next day I got anemail from the same secretary
saying, uh, send the manuscript,but he probably won't read it
(09:39):
and he definitely won't write aforeword.
So I said, okay, sent themanuscript half half.
My goal was just to have himread the book and yeah because,
because it answers a lot of thequestions he was asking
then I got another immediateemail and said well, he got the
book, but he's probably notgoing to read, he's probably not
going to write the four, hewon't write the forward, so
(10:00):
that's fine.
And then the next day I gotanother email and the email was
from Francis and he says I wantto apologize.
I fully intended to brush thisoff, like I do all these
requests, but I'm praying andfasting for my church and the
only thing God's telling me is Ineed to read your book.
(10:20):
And I just read it, wow.
And I want to know can myelders meet with you tomorrow?
Yeah.
We're both in SouthernCalifornia.
So we met halfway somewherenear UCLA, in Westwood, at a
coffee shop and we had a goodtime chatting.
And I start walking off to thecar and Francis says listen,
(10:42):
neil, I understand what you'resaying.
I have a gift.
I mean, I think God's given mea gift.
I got to use it.
I said, francis, you do have agift and it's evident to
everyone.
Yeah, you need to use it andGod will find a way to use it,
but what he doesn't want iseveryone else to sit on their
gifts while you use yours yeah.
I think it struck a chord.
(11:02):
Before I knew it he was wasleaving Cornerstone and starting
organic churches.
Yeah, and he did.
He then told me by the way, myelders have informed me I
shouldn't write the forewordbecause then I'd be associated
with this kind of church.
But I appreciate you asking.
I said, francis, listen, if Godcould tell you to read the book
, he could tell you to write theforeword, and if he doesn't
(11:24):
tell you to write the foreword,I don't want you to write it.
Yeah, and two weeks later hesent me a foreword.
So there's an example ofsomeone who has paid a price,
incredible price, a cost infront of the whole world, to
move from this hierarchicalexpression of leadership to be
more organic, to see churchesinteractive, to multiply
(11:49):
disciples, instead of trying tostart another event.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
And he uses his gift too.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Yes, he does, he does , and thank you for sharing that
, because part of what we wantto do, on this podcast at least,
is help people to not feel likethey're the only one that are
having to pay this price.
They're the only one goingthrough this, and sharing
examples like that is a greatreminder that other people are
also paving the way in radicalobedience to God, no matter what
(12:19):
that looks like.
And I think this is only thebeginning, because I know for us
it reminds me of the wholefour-minute mile thing.
It's just such a difficultthing to break until somebody
broke it, and then all of asudden you see person after
person coming behind, and itfalls right in line with what
you said how you defineleadership.
Is leadership going before, notfrom above?
(12:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah, and maybe even leadership is a word that we
should use less frequentlybecause I think it implies to
most people in their minds thistop-down, vertical
accountability.
In fact, that's the complaintwe always get in church, that
it's organic, there's noaccountability.
Well, that's not true at all.
We have more accountabilitythan you could ever imagine in a
(13:08):
normal church, but it'saccountability one to another.
It's not vertical, it'shorizontal, which is what one
another's are.
So I think when we use the wordleadership and I put it on the
cover of my book- but I thinkthat it does get in the way.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Two things.
Um, people immediately wantedto ask us the question like who?
Who are your, who's your?
Who are your elders?
Who are you submitted to?
You know you referenced likethere's more submission in the
group, between believers.
But then they asked thisquestion and this is what got us
in trouble.
On the mission field, I toldyou the story before about how
we went on the mission seal andwe decided not to go with an
(14:02):
organization.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Let me guess what's your covering?
Speaker 2 (14:04):
What's your covering?
You got it, and it's one of thethings that we catch the most
(14:26):
flack for Um, I don't have.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
you have and mentored and helped along, received that
flack more often than I do.
I have all the credentials.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yeah, I've got the ordination, I've got the MDiv,
I've got the doctoral degreethat was given to me, I've got
the stuff that written books andpastor at a church.
So they they didn't usuallythrow that at me, but at the
people that I trained it's a.
It's weird.
I mean you don't find a singleverse in the Bible that
questions someone's covering.
(14:56):
Sure.
That's not in the scriptures atall.
My response is always the same.
You know, if all authority ofheaven and earth is not enough
covering, then there's nothing Ican do for you.
Wow yeah.
All authority of heaven andearth commands you to make a
disciple.
Yep.
All authority of heaven andearth commands you to baptize
disciples.
(15:16):
Right.
And that's a command for allChristians, all followers of
Christ.
Yeah, so I think that's enoughcovering.
Yeah, so I think that's enoughcovering.
Yeah.
I think, when you start puttinghuman coverings over everything,
you are implementing amiddleman between God and his
people, you're creating amediator between God and his
people, and that's the placereserved only for Jesus.
(15:40):
Yeah, and it creates moreproblems than you can imagine.
Yeah.
Going back to what?
Speaker 2 (15:44):
you than you can imagine.
Yeah, Going back to what yousaid earlier about the word
leadership that's.
I think what I was going to saywas we've also seen that and
we're hesitant how strongly orhow much we use that word, and
we even chosen our own communityto use the word facilitator.
It was just more helpful for us.
It seemed like more closelyrelated to what they were
actually doing, and just stopanybody from from the temptation
(16:07):
of getting getting a big heador anything.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Yeah, you know, it's hard to find the word leader and
you, and when you do find theword leader in the new Testament
, it's usually in a negativelight.
Um, so we, we tend to look atChrist's words where he says you
know, pick up your cross,follow me, and we think or you
(16:37):
know words about not beingexercising authority over others
.
We tend to form new languagearound that called servant
leaders.
Right.
But actually he never told us tobe servant leaders.
He told us to be servants.
We need many more servants, notmany more leaders.
Right, I think if you're a goodservant, people will be
influenced.
Yeah.
They'll be closer to Jesus.
Yeah, but you can be a servantleader and still be a mediator
(17:01):
between God and men, and that'sa problem for me.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Yeah, I've heard it said before too.
Like you, look at thequalifications in those two
scriptures, I believe in Timothyand Titus, where it talks about
the qualifications of an elder,and people look through those
and it's funny because youwouldn't expect somebody not to
do those things Like, oh, if I'mnot a leader, can I abuse my
wife?
Speaker 1 (17:30):
You know, it's like all these things.
It's like yeah I know I writethat that's crazy, that that we
we call that qualifications ofan elder.
Yeah, that's also not in thescriptures.
What he says is if you aspireto be an elder, that's a good
thing.
Now it does.
They've.
The translation is incorrect.
I'll just say that boldly.
Yeah, sure, you can argue withme, you can disagree with me,
you have my permission.
But the word office is notthere.
(17:53):
It's supplied by thetranslators because they cannot
even imagine leadership oreldership without hierarchy.
So they threw it in there.
But it's not supposed to bethere and also I don't think
it's.
If you aspire to be in aposition of leadership, I think
(18:14):
the translation should be if youaspire to have a mentor, that's
a good thing.
Yeah.
And if you're looking for amentor, here are the qualities
that you look for.
And if you're looking for amentor, here are the qualities
that you look for, because theseare the qualities you want in
your life.
Yeah.
So this is not permission foryou to have more than one wife
because you're not an elder.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
This is saying when you want to follow someone on
that path, here's the qualitiesyou look for.
Yeah.
To get behind.
Yeah behind, because that'swhat you want, rubbing off on
your life.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah, I love when you break it down that way because
it starts to remove all of theseagain.
Going back to what we talkedabout previously the CEO,
learning from the CEO as opposedto the farmer or just the just
just what Jesus teaches.
(19:08):
Honestly, and it's funnybecause I'll look on certain
church websites and stuff likethat and even as the positions
are listed out, it's the, thesenior pastor, at the top, the
associate pastor and on down andit's and it's.
It's wild to me how closely achurch website is now looks like
a business website.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Well, and the word senior pastor?
It does exist in the Bible.
Yeah, Jesus himself is thechief shepherd.
Right.
So I would not put that on yourbusiness card, right?
I'm sorry.
In fact, let me just be honest.
I did have it on my businesscard.
I took it off when I were one,so I wouldn't use that language
(19:54):
if I were you.
But you know, we talk so much,we make so much of the elder
role, right, yeah, and so littleof the deacon.
Sure, the akhenos, which thedeacon role?
You have to be tested beforethis.
So we've used that word servantthere, deacon, to be a
(20:14):
descriptor for those who areless than elders, and the only
reason we've done that is one ofthe qualifications for the
elders they're able to teach.
Therefore, in our church, worldteaching is the highest
objective, therefore they'rehigher.
That's craziness.
There's nothing in thescripture indicating that elders
(20:35):
are above deacons and deaconsare not junior varsity elders
that clean up after the potluckand count the money after the
offering.
Yeah, that is when we startdefining spiritual gifts based
on what we do at this eventinstead of how we react to one
another in the missions in theworld, then we are really
(20:59):
minimizing God and his purposesand his people.
So I think and this is a breakfrom normal traditional
doctrines that the deacon andthe deaconess are the
expressions of the equippers ofthe Ephesians 4.11 passage, of
(21:20):
the equipers of the Ephesians4.11 passage, that they are the
servants are the equipers thathave a more broad regional
influence.
And that elders are morespiritual parents in a house,
church or organic church.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
When it comes to elder bishop or overseer
shepherd, do you think a lot ofthat language is interchangeable
or would you see all those asdifferent?
Speaker 1 (21:46):
So I wouldn't interchange elder and shepherd.
Okay.
I would see overlap, but Idon't see them as synonymous.
Okay, Elder and overseerthere's a little bit more of a
synonymous.
An elder is someone who seesover yeah they have enough
(22:08):
experience to look above theheads of people to see when
there's incoming yeah, and toprotect them um.
So that's really what it is.
There's crossover in a lot ofthis language, sure.
Sure.
And nobody is one thing forlife.
Yeah.
We all need to grow and emergeand let new gifts arise, and
grow more in Christlikeness,which means you have a long way
(22:31):
to go and I have a long way togo.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yeah, that's good.
I think that's a good bridgewayto kind of enter into the
conversation about the APASgifts.
And so for the people thataren't super familiar with that
number one, could you tell uswhat APES is?
You know what are those giftsand how does that?
What is the connection betweenleadership, eldership, all that
(22:57):
and the APES gifts in the church.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
So first I'll answer the second question first.
Yeah, that's fine, get it outof the way.
The eldership I think iseldership is literally someone
who's older, more experienced.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
That's what it is.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Now, the word elder didn't just appear for the first
time in 1 Timothy 3.
Right, it's throughout the OldTestament.
Every city had elders.
They were spiritual fathers ofthat or not spiritual fathers.
They were the fathers of thecity.
Yeah.
They were the peopleresponsible to care for the
(23:35):
ongoing needs of the community.
Yeah.
So that's what an elder is.
So for me, in my expression ofthe kingdom of God, an elder
would be anybody who is takingcare of a house, a spiritual
family a house church, anorganic church.
They could be only two stepsfurther down the path than the
(23:59):
other people.
Yeah, they could be only twosteps further down the path than
the other people.
So when Paul wrote to Timothy,don't appoint a new convert to
be an elder.
You have to look at context.
Timothy was in Ephesus, wherePaul had spent three solid years
training all these people andthey had been going and fruitful
for a long time.
So when you appoint a newconvert to be an elder, there's
(24:23):
a problem, not that he's goingto lead poorly, which is what we
immediately go to, but thatit's going to mess with his
heart or her heart.
Suddenly they're going to thinkhighly of themselves more
highly, and so that's what Paulsays.
He says, unless they suffer fromthe same temptation as the
(24:44):
devil and they have pride.
Yep.
But when he writes about eldersto Titus, who happens to be
pioneering new church plantingworks in Crete, he doesn't add
the qualification don't appointa new convert, because that's
all there is.
Yeah, there's new converts,right?
So all you need to be an elderreally is to be two steps
(25:09):
further in your experience ofwalking with christ than someone
else.
Wow, yeah, and and help themfind that path.
Yeah, that's, that's all thatis.
And so I think every organicchurch has some elder in it that
is respected.
My church said, hey, we don'thave elders because we didn't
have positions and titles.
I says, yes, we do.
It says, no, nobody's beenappointed an elder, we haven't
(25:32):
had a vote.
Okay, I said, well, okay, letme show you how we have elders.
Everybody close their eyes,they all close their eyes.
Okay, let me show you how wehave elders.
Everybody close their eyes,they all close their eyes.
So when I say, open your eyes,don't speak, just look around
the room and look at the face ofeverybody in the room and ask
yourself one question when thisperson speaks up, do I want to
hear what they have to say?
(25:52):
yeah ready, set go and everybodysaid, yeah, we have.
We have elders Right, it's afunctional thing, not a
positional thing, correct?
So that's how I feel about theelders, about the deacons and
(26:13):
deaconesses, it's interestingthat there's female deacons and
male deacons.
So you have female apostles inthe New Testament, in Romans 16.
You have female prophets in theNew Testament, both in Acts,
and you have females.
You have women teaching in theNew Testament, being commanded
to teach.
So I think that you can havethe apest roles and they're much
(26:36):
more regional in theirinfluence.
They're not just focused on oneband of people in a home or a
family.
They're exercising an equippingfunction for multiple of these
house churches.
Yeah.
And that's how I see those rolesfunctioning.
So the best way for me todescribe them is using the hand.
(26:58):
So you have five fingers, youhave five gifts.
A-p-e-s stands for Apostle,prophet, evangelist, shepherd,
teacher.
Some use the word fivefold.
We used to call them the 4-1-1team because, based on Ephesians
4-11.
Yeah, yeah.
So the apostles?
Like the thumb, I'm out of here, I'm hitching a ride, I'm going
to the next town.
(27:19):
Like the thumb, I'm out of here, I'm hitching a ride, I'm going
to the next town, I'm notstaying.
That is literally what it meansto be a sent one.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Now we've redefined the gift, so that you don't have
to go and you can be a sent one, which is a problem for me, see
.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
And then we talk about Pauline and Petrine
apostles, and Pauline are oneswho go, and Petrine ones are
ones that stay, but that's notwhat I see with Peter or Paul.
And that wasn't the intent ofwhat he was saying in Galatians
2.
So I think that's finding anexcuse for someone who stays.
Sure.
(27:56):
So apostles?
Someone who's going, they'resent.
Sure, so apostles are someonewho's going, they're sent.
The prophet is the straight andnarrow forefinger that's
pointing the way.
They're the navigators, they'rethe ones who say there's the
real threat.
They're the ones that when youare in sin, like Nathan did to
David, you're the one you needto repent Right.
(28:16):
And they're often the ones whoruin all our strategy planning
meetings by saying let's ask godwhat he thinks now.
The apostle and prophet are twogifts that are meant to work
together.
There are verses in the gospels, in the epistles and even in
(28:36):
revelation where the two giftsare mentioned together apostles
and prophets.
But they are opposite gifts, sothey're complementary, and
because of that they oftentimesclash and don't get along and
they split up and we lose ourfoundations.
That's a big, huge problem inthe church yeah.
(28:58):
I can find apostles, I can findprophets.
What I can't find is themworking together for the long
haul.
Interesting.
In fact, barnabas was probablyprophetic, paul apostle.
They only lasted one journey.
Silas was a prophet, paul wasan apostle.
They only lasted one journey.
It's really common for thesegifts not to work together.
(29:18):
So when they do work together,they become a weapon in the
hands of God.
In fact, where Paul writes, ourweapons are not of this world
but are divinely powerful forthe destruction of strongholds
risen up against the knowledgeof God.
He's not talking about allChristians, that passage in
(29:42):
context.
He's talking about theapostolic gifts, because
chapters 10 to the end of 2Corinthians is him defending
apostolic gifts and authorityand he says there's two parts to
the apostolic authority thetearing down of strongholds and
the building up of the church.
And when these two gifts worktogether, that's what happens.
(30:06):
That's how a foundation is laid.
We tear down the strongholds ofdarkness, the enemy who blinds
the minds of the unbelievers, sothey can be receptive.
And we build up that church, sothey can be receptive and we
build up that church.
So I think we need to recapturethis prophetic weaponry in our
spiritual warfare.
The prophets see it, they seethe enemy, they see the warfare,
(30:31):
but they don't have that weaponof divine power to shut it down
so they do a prophetic act andthey pray.
Now, don't minimize prayer.
It does things, yeah, it'seffective and it's powerful, but
it doesn't destroy the works ofthe devil, which is what jesus
(30:51):
came to do the apostate.
We can't.
We can't kill the demons, wecan't lock them in prison.
That's not our authority yeahthat's not even michael even
says the lord rebuke you.
I can't do, it sure, so what?
What we can do is shut downtheir works yeah so that's what
these two gifts are meant for,but unfortunately they don't get
along.
Because the prophet is allabout um, god must do the work,
(31:17):
and only God, not men.
And then the apostle's allabout creating wineskins to help
people do the work.
They see that as a clash andthey don't get along.
And when that happens, everyoneloses.
Yeah, wow.
So we need to find a way.
And so the way that I get alongwith my prophetic partner in
(31:38):
life, and that's Desi Baker SureDesi and I, a long time I
learned the language that I getalong with my prophetic partner
in life, and that's Desi BakerSure Desi and I, a long time I
learned the language that helps.
I said listen, desi.
I learned three little wordsthat help and this will help you
get along with prophets, whowill also help you have better
marriages.
You say you are right.
That's music to the ears of aprophet.
(31:58):
They live their whole lifebeing told they're wrong.
Yeah.
And so when someone wants tohear what they have to say and
affirm that it's true, it meansso much.
So I say you are right, it isall about God, and God must do
the work.
All I want to do.
So, in essence, what I'm sayingis you're right, it's all about
(32:20):
the wine.
Jesus is the wine, but I don'twant to spill a drop of that
precious wine, so I'm going tobuild a wineskin to carry it.
Yep.
But as soon as this plasticbottle is empty, it's of no
value Recycle it.
The wineskin is not what'simportant, it's the wine.
(32:42):
Yeah, when, when I use thatlanguage, desi can trust me yeah
and I can trust him.
And so he becomes the navigationfor the weapon and I have the
power to shut it.
So good, that's the apostle andprophet, the evangelist, like
the middle finger that reachesfurther than the others and is
most likely to offend people.
So in Los Angeles, on thefreeways, there's a lot of
(33:07):
people with a gift ofevangelists and they let me know
and I always give them myapostolic thumb right back.
The evangelist is the mostwinsome of the gifts.
You learn a lot about thesegifts just in their name.
So an evangelist is good news.
(33:28):
Who doesn't like good news?
Everybody wants to hear goodnews.
Man, if that's your gift,everybody likes you.
Everybody wants to be aroundyou.
Everybody likes you.
Everybody wants to be aroundyou.
Everybody thinks you'recharming and loving and good and
you speak so well and, man, Ilike who you are and they want
to receive what you have to say.
(33:50):
And so those are the people inthe kingdom of God that you know
, like my friend Rick Warren andothers, they just, they're just
, everybody likes them, and theyend up being representatives to
the world of the church the DLMoody's, the George Whitefield's
, the Billy Graham's.
Who speaks to presidents andkings.
That's the evangelist's giftand they draw in, whereas the
(34:15):
apostle sends out.
So there's a lot of crossoverwith those two gifts, apostle
and evangelist.
But the apostle is constantlysending out and empowering
others, whereas the evangelistis drawing in, and the
difference in that is like.
So, in a sense, the apostle isrepellent and the evangelist is
(34:39):
attractional, attractive, so,long haul, the apostle ends up
being forgotten.
They started a work, but thenthey move on and the work
continues and the people doingthe work are not, are not having
to give credit to the apostle,they're just doing it themselves
(35:01):
, and so the apostle can beforgotten.
And you look at Paul's life andthe churches of Asia Minor
rejected him.
Yeah.
That's so sad, but that's true.
When he died, he died alone,except for Luke.
Yeah, it was common.
He had to defend himself as anapostle all the time, because
(35:21):
the energy behind the apostle isgiven out to others, it's
distributed.
The evangelist is a collectiveenergy.
So that's the differencebetween the two and they're both
needed.
And then the shepherd is likethe ring finger and wants to
communicate to the world.
I'm committed to one brideuntil death.
(35:41):
Do us part.
And when Jesus talked about theshepherd gift, that's how he
defined it.
The shepherd is not thehireling who is paid to do a job
, to manage a flock, because ahireling you'll do fine until
the paycheck stops and then youleave.
Or the wolf comes and you'renot willing to die for a
(36:02):
paycheck, you leave.
The shepherd will stay when thepaycheck stops.
The shepherd will stay when thewolf comes.
So they are committed.
And so when you find a matureshepherd in a movement, it's too
late.
They already have a flock andthey're not going to leave it.
They're going to stay with thatflock till the end.
(36:23):
Yeah, so we need to producemore shepherds regularly yeah
and I think elders do cross overwith that.
Eldership in house churches isan opportunity for a young
shepherd to to refine thosegifts so that later they can
maybe shepherd more people.
But they can only get up to 150people.
(36:44):
Yeah, it's been determined byrobin dunbar they call it the
dunbar number that 150 is yourmax number of intimate friends
that you can have.
Yeah, so a shepherd wants toknow everyone.
They, they have a limitedcapacity so so we need more of
them.
And if you make a fist and youtry to raise just your shepherd
(37:05):
finger, it becomes very hard todo.
Some people can do it easierthan others, but the truth is
it's attached to the other gifts, it wants to be with others.
So the reason we have an APESteam in our history for 30 years
now is because I started with ashepherd.
I can't even do it.
(37:25):
The two of us working together,the shepherd makes the teamwork
.
The shepherd wants to heareveryone's voice.
Everyone matters for theshepherd.
I would have just formed a teamaround apostles and evangelists
and that would have been enough,but because the shepherd was
there, it let every voice count.
(37:47):
It formed a team.
The teacher is the smallest ofall the gifts, the weakest
actually, and that's the onlygift where the Bible says let
not many become teachers,because if they're doing their
job Because you don't really ifthey're doing their job right,
you don't need a lot of them,because their job is not to do
the ministry but to equip thesaints to do the ministry.
(38:09):
So the evangelist doesn't dothe evangelism, the evangelist
trains others to do evangelism.
The teacher doesn't teach thesaints, but equips the saints to
teach.
Yep.
And there are many verses whereit says everyone should teach.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Yeah, Hebrews 5.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Hebrews 5, Colossians 3, 1 Corinthians 14.
Yeah.
And if that's not enough, theGreat Commission which we
believe everyone should do.
Hebrews 5 is really good becauseit says by now all of you ought
to be teachers.
All you can handle is milk, andmilk is what it's a
(38:50):
pre-digested meal.
The mother eats, the mealabsorbs the nutrients and it
comes out for the baby throughthe gland as milk.
That's what a sermon is.
A sermon is a pre-digested mealfor babies, infants, and our
churches are full of babies,infants.
(39:11):
They can't feast themselves onthe Word, they have to only
receive it through a sermon.
Our church is full ofmilkaholics, lactose dependents,
that come every week hoping tobe fed milk.
True meat is when you digestthe word yourself and practice
(39:32):
it in obedience, and that's whatwe need more of.
So if a teacher is equippingothers to teach, then they work
themselves out of a job quickly.
Yeah, we don't need as many ofthem, because their job is to
equip others to do the work ofteaching, and that actually gets
(39:53):
the movement moving outwardinstead of staying inward, with
one specialized, equippedteacher to do all the teaching.
Sure.
Do all the thinking foreverybody.
Yep, you know, the teacher'sgoal is that we have sound
doctrine, and so they want tomake sure there are no heretics
and people are orthodox.
(40:14):
That's their passion, right,yeah, but they do it in such a
way that they do all thethinking for everybody, so they
create people who can't thinkfor themselves, don't know the
scriptures themselves, andthey're more easily led astray
because of it.
All you need to do is getsomeone at the top with a degree
and suddenly they could leadthem all kinds of false ways.
(40:34):
So the best way is to teachthem to teach, and you and I
know we've taught.
When you teach, you learn morethan anybody else in that room
100%.
So if you want your people tolearn, have them teach.
Yeah.
And if that's the case, then Isuggest you also allow them to
make mistakes.
Yeah.
I don't know of any soundteacher that ever could say I
(40:58):
never taught something that waswrong.
I never made a mistake, I nevermisinterpreted the Bible.
That's how you learn.
That's the education.
So let them make mistakes.
The Bible is withstood 2000years of bad preaching.
It can hold its own.
So those are the five gifts.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
That's really good.
I think, too, that brings upsomething that you mentioned of
um, maybe a fear of a lot ofpeople, like they see that the
the model of having a soundteacher at the top as a
mechanism of uh you know wetalked about covering as a
mechanism of protection.
Um, because I'm under thisteacher with this degree and
(41:38):
he's under a denomination thatyou know quote unquote holds him
accountable, uh, or whateverseminary that he went to, then
I'm more protected againstheresy.
But, as I've heard you discussbefore, that's not necessarily a
protection mechanism.
It could quite actually workthe opposite.
Um, how would you say, whatwould you say to people that are
(41:59):
concerned that what you'reexplaining is more apt to fall
into heresy, or even what wehear a lot is turned into a cult
.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
One man's heresy is another man's orthodoxy, so we
got to get that out there.
Yeah, I think that if you thinkseminary is what prevents
heresy, then you're not payingattention to history, because
all those schools that we'reafraid are so woke and teaching
all kinds of weird things, theyall started as seminaries.
(42:34):
Right, that's true.
Yeah, so a lot of false teachingcomes from seminary.
That's not going to be oursalvation.
Yeah, we don't needbetter-trained pulpits.
Yeah, we need better-trainedpews.
We need people who know theWord of God so they're not
(42:56):
easily led astray.
And the system we've created,where experts do the thinking
for you, that creates dumberpeople, not smarter people.
I can remember when I was in adenomination I was asked to be
on a task force to examine howwe examine pastors for licensure
(43:17):
, and in this particulardenomination, the only one who
can license or ordain a pastoris a church.
So I looked at that and I says,well then, why do we exist as a
board to do this?
Why don't we just let thechurches do it?
And one of the pastors says, no, we can't do that.
(43:37):
They've not been trained,they've not been to seminary,
they don't know how to determinethis.
And so I said to him okay,let's just say his name is
Robert.
Robert, that's not his name, isa nice guy.
I got you, robert.
How long have you been at yourchurch?
20 years.
So let me understand this.
For 20 years, 50 Sundays a year, you've been teaching these
(44:04):
people and they're still notsmart enough to know what's
right and wrong.
Yikes, yeah, I don't thinkyou're doing well as a teacher.
If that's the case, he hadnothing to reply.
Sure, it's a mentality issuethat there are experts that have
more anointing from God Right,that have closer access to
(44:30):
understand God, and they thenbring the word of God to the
people so they can know God.
But that creates a middleman,that creates, that creates a
mediator, so that you can't knowGod without this person's help.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
That's a huge problem , Kind of a Moses mentality.
You'll hear people referencethe old Testament a lot when
they they can only because it'snot in the new Testament.
Yeah, you say also in in primalfire that, uh, you feel like
the church has has sidelined alot of gifts.
Obviously, we know that theshepherding gift is exalted in
many ways.
(45:01):
Talk about that further.
What gifts have we sidelinedand and how do we get get back
to seeing them all utilized?
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Yeah Well, first of all, it's important to know that
the the word pastor as a nounapplied to someone other than
Jesus in the New Testament isonly one time Sure, and that's
Ephesians 4.11.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
Yep, and it's in the plural.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
That's enough to know there are shepherds.
Sure, I'm not discounting it.
Yep.
But to make that the only rolethat's available.
And the truth is, you sayshepherd is the most prominent,
that's the most prominent wordto describe them, but the truth
is they're not shepherds.
There's been a coup in the bodyof Christ where one gift has
(45:51):
taken over all the others, butit's not the shepherd, that
wouldn't even be the ambition ofa shepherd, it it's the teacher
Interesting, who took the termshepherd.
In fact, in the coup, what theytaught us is that, first of all
, apostles and prophets are nolonger for today and the word
shepherd actually is shepherd.
(46:12):
Teachers one role and theyteach.
And look what they did to us.
Yeah.
They left the evangelistoutstanding in the field.
Literally, they made him souncomfortable that the shepherd
left the institutional church toform parachurch organizations,
to fulfill the Great Commission.
And we are left with a churchled only by teachers, and
(46:34):
everything about church isdesigned by teachers.
You sit in rows with a pulpitup front.
Who would design that?
A shepherd would have couches.
It'd be much more intimate.
An evangelist would have astadium.
A prophet would be in a cave upin the mountain, in the
wilderness, somewhere.
An apostle wouldn't have abuilding.
I'm just going to meet in yourhome.
That is so true.
(46:56):
So, shepherds, in fact, you aregiven a choice you become a
missionary or you become apastor.
Now, when I was younger, I hadonly those two options Pastor,
which means teacher, ormissionary.
You know how I became thosethings.
It didn't matter If I chose tobe a missionary.
(47:18):
I still had to go four years toan academic institution and get
a degree.
Who would design a system likethat?
Imagine an evangelist beingsent to a Christian college in
the middle of nowhere, podunkMidwest, in a school full of
Christians.
(47:38):
No evangelist would ever agreeto that.
No, torture.
No apostle would want to dothat.
No, no prophet would want to dothat.
We've created a system thatonly allows teachers to lead and
we talk about churches.
What Sunday school or Christianeducation?
(47:58):
Yeah.
It's all been dominated by onegift and I don't want to get rid
of that gift.
I have that gift, yeah, but Iwant all the gifts to work.
Yeah, it's all been dominatedby one gift and I don't want to
get rid of that gift.
I have that gift, yeah, but Iwant all the gifts to work.
Yeah, if you're baking a cake,it requires five ingredients,
and if you only have two, you'renot making cake You're not even
half baked.
Oh yeah, so you need all fiveingredients.
(48:19):
In a sense, we need all fiveand we cannot be dominated by
one.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Yep, no, that is really good, and I'm still.
I'm going to have to chew onthat for a while, because when
you said that, it became soclear that we've titled, we've
labeled something, we've labeledit pastor, but really the
majority of the people in thepulpit are not actually
shepherds, and I've even seenthat in my experience of like
kind of the megachurches thatwe've been part of, that there's
(48:46):
sometimes our evangelists inthe pulpit and so they're
bringing, they're attracting somany people.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Well, that's led to not a disagreement but a
different emphasis that I havewith my good friend, alan Hirsch
.
He's oftentimes will say thatapes have been exiled from the
church, and apes he meansapostles, prophets and
evangelists.
I agree that apostles andprophets have been exiled, and
(49:18):
it used to be that evangelistswere exiled, but it is no longer
the case With the church growthmovement.
They were not only welcomed inthe church, they sit at the head
of the table now, and that iswhy we've gone from very few
megachurches to having moremegachurches in every city and
(49:40):
every town, because theevangelist now is leading in the
church.
Yep.
Their voice is stronger than theothers, and so they're bringing
in a lot of people growing achurch, but they're not actually
increasing the percentage ofborn-again followers of Christ
in our culture.
Yeah.
They're just drawing people into build a church.
(50:02):
That's the evangelist.
So they were once exiled andstarted parachurch ministries,
but not recently.
Recently they have turnedchurches into parachurch
organizations Right right.
In a sense, they've turned theminto a corporation.
Yeah.
(50:22):
And I'm not saying, allevangelists did that.
No, or did that, no, or doingthat, but I am saying that now,
the evangelist isn't.
So oftentimes churches arebuilt on a teacher foundation or
an evangelist foundation.
Yes, and that's not the rightfoundation.
Yeah, no I needed gifts, butthey're not the right start.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
What does it look like?
Moving forward, um, with seeingthose gifts arise without there
being just a bunch ofself-appointed people around.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
I think this is a bigger question than just
leadership or gifts, and we'vetouched on this already it's the
hierarchical expression ofchurch.
That's the problem.
Yeah, yeah.
So whether you put a evangelistat the top of the pyramid or a
teacher at the top of thepyramid, or an apostle at the
top of the pyramid, whoever's atthe top of the pyramid is
(51:11):
making a mistake because it'sthe pyramid that's the problem.
Yep, so that is uh antagonisticto the teachings of christ yes
it will not be so among you.
Yeah, says jesus.
So if we eliminate the pyramidand it all becomes relational
(51:33):
and it's all horizontal insteadof vertical, and our only
vertical accountability is tochrist and to one another, it's
all horizontal.
Then you don't have the need toprint business cards with
Apostle so-and-so on it, correct?
Yeah.
And so in our movement, I'venever met a prophet in this
(51:57):
world and I have traveled to60-plus nations and met a lot of
people.
I've never met a prophet asseasoned and sound as the one I
walk beside daily, and that'sDesi Baker, but he refuses to
call himself a prophet.
Sure.
He says I function in aprophetic gift.
Yeah, and the reason is it'skind of a reactive reason but
(52:20):
it's a reaction toself-appointed apostles and
prophets and teachers and allthat.
I think we need to care lessabout our title and you know,
each one of you has a new namein heaven and you don't even
know what it is.
Jesus will give that to you,carved on a white stone, someday
, and it won't be on a businesscard.
(52:42):
Yeah, and it won't be on abusiness card.
Your identity needs to be morethan pastor or teacher or rabbi
or apostle, this or prophet.
That it needs to be.
I am a follower of Christ andnothing more.
Follow me only so much as Ifollow Christ.
(53:02):
Now, the truth is and I'm kindof a biblicist by nature that
Paul does identify himself Iapostle of Christ, sent by God,
not by men.
I see that, I know that.
But I also see the context he'sin and what that means to be
apostolic versus what it means2,000 years later of
(53:25):
hierarchical church structures.
Yes.
And so I wouldn't assume, Iwouldn't accept the title Pope
and I'm not going to accept thetitle.
I wouldn't accept the wordBishop, which is New Testament,
that's biblical.
Yeah.
Because we've polluted it somuch.
Yeah, in fact, I don't use theword pastor.
(53:47):
Yeah, you'll notice, I use theword shepherd, because pastor
implies a position.
Shepherd implies, in my culture, a function.
Sure, that's all it really isis functions.
Yeah, jesus made himself of noreputation and asked us to do
(54:10):
the same.
Have this attitude inyourselves, which was also in
Christ Jesus.
Yeah.
So I think we need to be apeople who make less of
ourselves because we're makingmore of Christ in others.
Yeah.
That's the kind of influencerthat will change the world.
Self-appointed leaders I don'thave much trust in the way you
(54:36):
discover your gift.
There's five things that I seehappening with Paul in the New
Testament that helps meunderstand.
This is where my calling is.
So five things First God toldhim listen to.
God.
God said you are an apostle tothe nations.
That is conversion.
I'm sure that he held on tothat his whole life and you may
(55:00):
not have that kind of revelation, but God might have given you
glimpses and hints of yourdestiny along the way.
Go back and look at theformation of your life and see
what are the fingerprints of Godon your formation.
So listen to God.
Secondly, listen to the church.
Church Paul went to Jerusalem.
(55:27):
Peter, james and John said tohim you are an apostle to the
Gentiles.
In the same way, peter is anapostle to the Jews.
So listen to the church.
Thirdly, listen to yourself.
Inside of you is a passion todo something, so much so that
when all doors close and peoplesay we don't do that in this
building, you'll find a way todo it, because you cannot deny
it.
It's a compulsion.
As Paul says, I have astewardship that gets a reward,
(55:51):
but even if I don't, I have acompulsion.
I have to do this.
Listen to God, listen to thechurch, listen to yourself,
listen to the people whose livesyou've touched.
Yeah.
The people who know you the best.
Yep.
What are they saying about yourstrengths?
So Paul writes the Corinthiansare doubting his apostolic gift
(56:12):
because of false apostles.
He says listen, I don't need aletter of recommendation to you,
you are my letter ofrecommendation, that's right the
fact that the Corinthian churchexists proves I'm an apostle.
You've had many teachers.
You've only had one father andthat's me.
So that's you're my letter ofrecommendation.
(56:34):
So ask the people whose livesyou are closest to that.
See you act the most.
Ask them They'll tell you.
Listen to them, to them.
And finally and I'm going tochange the language don't listen
to this person, but payattention to what he's saying
that's satan.
What does the enemy say aboutyou?
What does he attack the most inyour life?
(56:56):
Where does he drop the mostbombs?
What is he most threatened byin your life?
Well, pay attention to that andstart using it, because if he
doesn't want you to do this,then there's some reason he's
threatened by it.
Go do it.
So Paul says to no one else I'man apostle, I bear on my back
(57:20):
the scars of an apostle.
Speaker 2 (57:23):
You just take off my shirt and you will know I'm an
apostle, because I've got thewhip marks yeah, not the white
jacket and the fancy shoes yeah,no, yeah that's really good and
that's really helpful, and I'mglad you mentioned that because
I know there's a lot of peoplethat are wondering like, how do
I even know?
Yeah, um, but I love that you.
I love that you framed it in away of understanding that our
(57:44):
identity is in Christ and so,regardless of how he uses you
and what you're gifted tofunction in, you cannot allow
that function or that gifting tobecome your identity.
Speaker 1 (57:52):
No, in fact, all of these gifts.
I often ask this question who'sthe best example, human example
, of an apostle in the NewTestament?
And most of the people I talkto will immediately say Paul.
If it's Catholic audiencethey'd say Peter.
But the truth is Peter and Paulwould both say Jesus, he's also
(58:13):
the prophet who is to come,he's the best evangelist, he is
the great shepherd and he israbbi and teacher.
So he is all five.
So the truth is, if you haveChrist in you, you have access
to all five of these gifts.
You no longer have thepermission to say I'm not gifted
(58:33):
, in that.
In fact, if this is yourweakest gift, you should grow in
it, because that's what itmeans to grow in Christlikeness.
You shouldn't be satisfied bysaying I never shepherd yeah
well then, you never do whatjesus did.
wow, that's not right.
You need to grow in all of them.
That doesn't mean that you arean apostle, prophet, evangelist,
(58:56):
shepherd and a teacher, becausein order to become any of these
, you mature to a place whereyou not only are doing apostolic
type work, but you're nowequipping others to be apostles,
you're equipping others to beteachers, you're training people
to teach others.
That's when you actually becomean equipper of others and
(59:17):
that's when you mature to be.
That's why the Bible says youcould have the gift of prophecy
and not be a prophet.
You could have the gift ofprophecy and not be a prophet.
You could have the gift ofteaching and not be a teacher.
The difference is not the giftgiven to you.
The difference is theexperience and the wisdom and
the maturity that turns you fromjust being teaching to becoming
(59:37):
a teacher of others, anequipper.
So we can all mature and growin these things, but none of us
live long enough to become amature equipper in all can all
mature and grow in these things,but we, none of us, live long
enough to become a matureequipper in all five yeah,
except jesus that's right, butyou will float and you'll have
strengths and you can become.
There's seasons in my life whereI'm mostly a teacher yeah and
there's other.
(59:58):
Most of my life I've beenapostolic, but not all of it,
and there's a time when I washighly prophetic and now that's
dropped down and I'm more of ashepherd.
These are fluid, yeah, butoverall, as you look back over
your life, one gift will be morepredominant your primary gift.
That'll indicate your calling,but if you're thrust into
(01:00:19):
another situation where that'snot needed, you'll find other
strengths come up.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
It makes me think of the scripture, about the
greatest gift you know, um youknow, desire the, the, the
greatest gift.
And I don't know.
Paul in some of that contextspeaks about prophecy, but to me
, um, the greatest gift is whatis needed.
Where are you?
What season are you in?
Who's the person in front ofyou?
Cause a person that needshealing in front of you may need
(01:00:44):
the gift of healing more thanthey need a prophetic word.
And so when I heard thatinitially from you about the
fluidity of the APES gifts, forsome people that might be like
it might catch them off guard,for me it was.
It gave me such peace becauseI'm like that.
It was.
It gave me such peace becauseI'm like that.
(01:01:05):
Not not only did it align withmy experience to where I felt
like I don't have to like landin this one place and be stuck
there forever and then also denythe other things in my life and
say I can't do that because I'mnot good at that, but it
allowed, like it allowed me tothink through that and go, yeah,
if Christ is in me, if the HolySpirit is in me, what's not in
him?
And then, in that line ofthought, what's not in me?
(01:01:25):
So there may be things thatwould be dormant in me, but as
the Holy Spirit desires, he canbring those things out of me.
So now I go into any situationand say I am in prison by myself
.
I'm not going to sit there andsay, well, unfortunately I can't
teach this person because myfriend who has the gift of
(01:01:45):
teaching is not in prison withme.
No, christ is in you and youcan become those things.
And so last night we werespeaking a little bit and you
had mentioned that over timeyou've realized that the order
that those gifts flow in yourlife has has changed a little
bit, and that was so cool.
And that was so cool and it'ssomething that I think I'll I'll
keep in the back of my mind forthe rest of my life to make
sure that I'm I'm not justtrying to function in something
(01:02:08):
the Lord is trying to shift inmy life.
If that makes sense, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
I think, ultimately, it's better that you people may
need a teacher, they may need anapostle, but I'll tell you what
they need.
More than that, they need Jesus, yeah, and sometimes you are
Jesus to them.
You are the incarnate Christ inyou as the hope of glory and
(01:02:34):
nothing else is.
It's not your gift.
In fact, we make so much ofgifts that we lose sight of the
fact that gifts are lessimportant than fruit.
The gifts of the Spirit aregiven freely and they are not
revoked.
They are not taken away.
(01:02:54):
So you go off the deep end andyou start living a sinful carnal
life.
You still have that gift.
Right.
I led someone to the Lord whowas an evangelist and he led so
many to Christ and he walkedwith Christ for seven years and
then he went back on crackcocaine and when he's buying
(01:03:15):
crack cocaine from a gang member, he led him to Christ and then
bought the cocaine Walking incomplete sin, still had the
cocaine Walking in complete sinstill have the gift.
So, when we measure people'sspirituality by their gifts,
we're making a huge mistake.
Sure, but that's what we do.
Oh yeah.
You know, this guy's a goodspeaker and people come to
(01:03:37):
Christ.
Therefore he's anointed.
Yeah.
Everyone who has the HolySpirit's anointed.
Amen Right.
Yeah, anointing means thepresence of God on your life,
and a 13-year-old girl living inthe hood, a girl of color who's
constantly bound to awheelchair, accepted Christ this
(01:04:00):
morning has as much access toGod as the pastor who's been
preaching, who has multipledegrees, who's been preaching
for 50 years.
He doesn't have more access toGod than she does.
The first will be last, thelast will be first, and access
to God is our power, is ouranointing, is our authority, and
(01:04:25):
that's where the fruit comesfrom.
And so it may take the form orshape of a gift, but the truth
is, jesus didn't say you'll knowthem by their gifts.
He said that you'll know themby their fruit.
And then he went on to say manywill say to me Lord, did I not
prophesy in your name, cast outdemons in your name, perform
(01:04:45):
miracles in your name, gift,gift, gift.
And he'll say I never knew you.
So it's not the gifts of theSpirit that are most important,
it's the fruit of the Spirit.
And the fruit of the Spirit islove, joy, peace, patience,
kindness, goodness, gentleness,faithfulness, self-control.
Against these there's no law,and that 13-year-old girl in the
(01:05:10):
hood can be as loving as theguy who's been reading God's
Word for 50 years.
Sure.
Now there's one thing he hasthat she doesn't have Time
experience, wisdom.
That comes from that.
I'm not guaranteeing you couldlive 50 years reading the word
and preaching and still beimmature.
(01:05:30):
Sure, I met several, yeah, buteven if best case scenario that
guy's been preaching god's wordfor 50 years and he has grown
the whole time, the onlyadvantage he has is maturity and
experience.
She has an advantage he doesn'thave and that's childlike faith
(01:05:51):
.
Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
So I think we need to get to the place where we
understand the anointing of Godis what the gospel brings to all
of us that equal access to God.
Because of that, my role inlife isn't to be your voice for
God or to teach you everythingabout God.
My role is to help you learnfrom God.
(01:06:18):
So we don't emphasize teachingas much as learning.
When you shift the languagefrom teaching to learning,
suddenly it changes all the wayyou evaluate what you're doing.
I'm more interested in whatyou're learning and, frankly,
you're going to learn more whenyou start teaching.
Speaker 2 (01:06:35):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
Then, rather than listen to me, teach, and it just
turns everything upside down.
Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
Yeah, that's so good.
Well, Neil, this has been a areally rich episode.
Uh, honestly, much deeper thanI thought we'd go, when I'm so
excited to honestly go throughit again myself.
Um, I hope you guys have haveenjoyed this and, uh, let us
know down in the comments, uh,if you can just maybe some of
(01:07:00):
the, some of the takeaways andsome of the ways that this helps
helps you and you're able toapply, uh, some of the takeaways
and some of the ways that thishelps you and you're able to
apply some of this stuff to yourlife.
I'm just so grateful for Neil'stime.
I do want to let you know thata lot of if you enjoyed this
particular podcast and what wetalked about in the APES GIFs,
Neil did write a book calledPrimal Fire, which has gone out
of print, but we have good news.
(01:07:21):
It'll soon be back into printhere shortly, and so once that
is, I'll get you guys a linkdown below and also be on the
lookout for his book on Audible,so he'll have an Audible
version of this as well.
That might be out in the nextfew months, depending on when
you watch this podcast, butwe'll make sure to link all that
below so you can dig deeper onthis topic.
Neil, thanks again so much.
(01:07:42):
You're welcome For coming outhere and so much for your time.
We really appreciate it andexcited to see how many people
are influenced and impacted bythis.
Speaker 1 (01:07:52):
It's my pleasure to be here.
And I had just been in a conference where both of us
were speaking.
He doesn't know me at the time.
I knew of him because he was apastor in a huge church.
He was asking questions fromthe pulpit that are dangerous.
What is the church really?
Why do we do church the way wedo?
The Bible doesn't describe it.
I emailed his office to see ifhe would write the foreword in,
and I got an immediate and verycourteous response from his
(00:21):
secretary who said no, francisdoesn't do that kind of thing.
Then the next day I got anemail from the same secretary
saying send the manuscript, buthe probably won't read it.
He definitely won't write aphoto.
And then the next day I gotanother email and the email was
from Francis.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
And he says what does it look like moving forward
with seeing those gifts arisewithout there being just a bunch
of self-appointed people?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
How do the APES gifts emerge in a healthy way.
It's the hierarchicalexpression of church that's the
problem.
Whether you put an evangelistat the top of the pyramid or a
teacher at the top of thepyramid, or an apostle at the
top of the pyramid, whoever's atthe top of the pyramid is
making a mistake, because it'sthe pyramid that's the problem
what gifts have we sidelined andhow do we get back to seeing
them all utilized?
The word pastor as a nounapplied to someone other than
(01:07):
Jesus in the New Testament isonly one time, and that's
Ephesians.
That's enough to know there areshepherds.
So I'm not discounting, but tomake that the only role.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Welcome to the ReChurch podcast.
If you're tired of a businessas usual Christianity and you're
ready to live like Jesus, youfind yourself in the right place
.
And today we're missing oneperson, missing who I like to
call my princess of a wife, mybeautiful wife.
But I am here again, once againwith Neil Cole, and so grateful
to have him back.
Last episode we got into thedepths of Organic Church 101,
(01:44):
I'd probably call it and it wasjust a beautiful conversation.
So if you missed that,definitely go back and check out
that first episode.
But, neil, glad to have youback today.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
It's great to be with you, man.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Awesome, so super excited about today's
conversation.
Moving from that whole, whatOrganic Church looks like, maybe
some of the nuances of gettingstarted, the DNA multiplication
kind of the heartbeat behind itI'd love to get into a question
that comes up a lot with ouraudience, or question, should I
(02:16):
say, and that is what does itlook like for leadership to
emerge from that organic place,very different from what we
probably you and I, a lot ofpeople experience in the church
at large?
You did write a.
Well, you've got two books.
You've got a book specificallyon called Organic Leadership
that you wrote after OrganicChurch, but then maybe we can,
(02:39):
we can touch on that a littlebit.
And then you've also got a bookcalled Primal Fire, which went
out of print but is going to bere-released soon, that you wrote
on the five-fold ministry.
Um, so I'd love to chat a bitabout that today.
Can you tell me first off we'llhit this first what was your
main purpose in in in writingorganic leadership after organic
(03:01):
church?
What do you remember?
What kind of brought you tothat point of thinking that
would be yeah, so my, my missionstatement for life is to
reproduce healthy disciples yeahleaders, churches and movements
, and it must go in that order.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
So all of our training was developed around
that.
So the first round of ourtraining was starting a new
church, organic church, bymaking disciples from lost
people.
But then we had a second roundof training that we called the
second story and that was aboutdeveloping leaders and movements
and networks.
(03:38):
And so when organic church cameout, that was just basically
the first round of training yeah, organic leadership and church
3.0, yep, uh, were the secondround and primal fire is a part
of that.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
But primal fire developed much more after our
training, uh, much beyond ourtraining yeah so it's, it's much
more yeah, I'm actually, aswe're like, discussing, my brain
is moving real time to see likeI don't want to skip over the
natural progression of theleadership aspect.
So, if you could just touch onbriefly, what does it look like
(04:15):
for leadership to emerge out ofan organic community?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Well, first of all and it's hard for people to get
this in their imagination wehave to not be hierarchical.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
So Jesus is quite clear over and over again that
the first are last, the last arefirst.
There's no hierarchy, there isno stages of leadership where
you get higher and higher in thepyramid.
That is in the world.
In fact he says in the worldyou have those who exercise
great authority over others, andit is not to be so among you
(04:49):
yeah and anytime the disciplesstart scrambling to get to the
top, he he cuts them downbecause that's not what his
kingdom is meant to be.
Right, but it is the way.
Everything else is in the worldSchool is like that, military
is like that, government is likethat, business is like that.
Everything you look at ishierarchical.
(05:12):
So it's natural for people totry to make the church that way.
It violates what Jesus said.
And so what we do is we say, ha, there are elders, therefore
there are leaders, thereforethere's a hierarchy.
And so what we do is we say, ha, there are elders, therefore
there are leaders, thereforethere's a hierarchy.
And that's a leap of logic.
(05:33):
That isn't necessary.
You can have elders and nothave a hierarchy.
So, in fact, there's versesthat get us in trouble because
they say you know, respect thosewho are given the task of being
over you.
Well, the word over doesn'texist there in the text.
It's to be before, and thatdoesn't mean in the pulpit and
standing in front of people.
It means to go first down thepath towards Jesus.
(05:54):
That's what a leader is, that'swhat an elder is, that's what
somebody who is leading othersis they're pioneering a trail
towards.
Jesus that you can follow.
And Paul says as I follow me,only as I follow Christ.
The moment I veer off, youleave me and you follow Christ.
Yeah.
That is.
(06:15):
That is what organic leadershipis.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, why do you think it is that?
Um, it makes people and I seenthis very early on in the
scriptures that, uh, leadershipwasn't something that they
started with, it wasn'tsomething that you know.
They recognize the works thatwere going on in.
Antioch and and and they werelike, oh, let's, hey, who's
who's the elder and stuff, likeit was something that emerged
(06:39):
over time.
Why do you think we have thisobsession with starting with
leadership as opposed to lettingit develop organically?
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Well, I think there's a lot of answers to that
question.
One is we think somebody's gotto get the job done, and so we
call them a leader, and it'spractical in that regard.
We all have aspirations andegos and we want to have, we
want to aspire to have peoplelike us, respect us, pay us,
(07:12):
give us security, give us asense of identity.
Yeah, so that drives us as well.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah, do you think that, with the way that
leadership, the way that we'veturned kind of leadership into
(07:37):
careers, I know you wrote andthis is going to another book
that you wrote called ChurchTransfusion have you and this
might be a side topic, but haveyou seen people because have you
seen anybody that has has takenleadership on as a career in
the church actually make thatshift over, and would you say
that that's one of the mainfactors that a lot of people in
(07:59):
those positions I say inquotation marks have a
difficulty in receiving themessage of what true organic
leadership looks like in theBible?
Speaker 1 (08:10):
You mean make a shift from institutional hierarchical
leadership to organic.
Yes, oh yeah, I've seen manymake that switch yeah.
Yeah.
One in particular that everyoneknows.
I've watched as Francis Chanmade that shift, that's true,
yeah, that everyone knows.
I've watched as Francis Chanmade that shift.
That's true, yeah, so when Iwrote Church 3.0, my publisher
asked me who you wanted to writethe foreword and I had just
(08:33):
been at a conference where bothof us were speaking and he
doesn't know me at the time.
I knew of him because he waspastoring a huge church.
He's in California.
Yeah, he's still in California.
But he was in Simi Valley and hewas asking questions from the
pulpit that are dangerous.
Sure, what is a church really,and why do we do church the way
(08:57):
we do when the Bible doesn'tdescribe it?
So I knew he was alreadythinking, so I said why don't we
let him read this book andwrite a forward?
yeah and the publisher said, oh,he doesn't do that kind of
thing.
So he said but if you want totry, go ahead.
So I got, I emailed his officeto see if he would write the
forward and I don't think I'veever told this story I hope I
(09:18):
don't get in trouble or somebodyelse in trouble but I I sent an
email and I got an immediateand and very courteous response
from his secretary who said, no,francis doesn't do that kind of
thing.
So I thought, oh, they wereright.
Then the next day I got anemail from the same secretary
saying, uh, send the manuscript,but he probably won't read it
(09:39):
and he definitely won't write aforeword.
So I said, okay, sent themanuscript half half.
My goal was just to have himread the book and yeah because,
because it answers a lot of thequestions he was asking
then I got another immediateemail and said well, he got the
book, but he's probably notgoing to read, he's probably not
going to write the four, hewon't write the forward, so
(10:00):
that's fine.
And then the next day I gotanother email and the email was
from Francis and he says I wantto apologize.
I fully intended to brush thisoff, like I do all these
requests, but I'm praying andfasting for my church and the
only thing God's telling me is Ineed to read your book.
(10:20):
And I just read it, wow.
And I want to know can myelders meet with you tomorrow?
Yeah.
We're both in SouthernCalifornia.
So we met halfway somewherenear UCLA, in Westwood, at a
coffee shop and we had a goodtime chatting.
And I start walking off to thecar and Francis says listen,
(10:42):
neil, I understand what you'resaying.
I have a gift.
I mean, I think God's given mea gift.
I got to use it.
I said, francis, you do have agift and it's evident to
everyone.
Yeah, you need to use it andGod will find a way to use it,
but what he doesn't want iseveryone else to sit on their
gifts while you use yours yeah.
I think it struck a chord.
(11:02):
Before I knew it he was wasleaving Cornerstone and starting
organic churches.
Yeah, and he did.
He then told me by the way, myelders have informed me I
shouldn't write the forewordbecause then I'd be associated
with this kind of church.
But I appreciate you asking.
I said, francis, listen, if Godcould tell you to read the book
, he could tell you to write theforeword, and if he doesn't
(11:24):
tell you to write the foreword,I don't want you to write it.
Yeah, and two weeks later hesent me a foreword.
So there's an example ofsomeone who has paid a price,
incredible price, a cost infront of the whole world, to
move from this hierarchicalexpression of leadership to be
more organic, to see churchesinteractive, to multiply
(11:49):
disciples, instead of trying tostart another event.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
And he uses his gift too.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Yes, he does, he does , and thank you for sharing that
, because part of what we wantto do, on this podcast at least,
is help people to not feel likethey're the only one that are
having to pay this price.
They're the only one goingthrough this, and sharing
examples like that is a greatreminder that other people are
also paving the way in radicalobedience to God, no matter what
(12:19):
that looks like.
And I think this is only thebeginning, because I know for us
it reminds me of the wholefour-minute mile thing.
It's just such a difficultthing to break until somebody
broke it, and then all of asudden you see person after
person coming behind, and itfalls right in line with what
you said how you defineleadership.
Is leadership going before, notfrom above?
(12:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah, and maybe even leadership is a word that we
should use less frequentlybecause I think it implies to
most people in their minds thistop-down, vertical
accountability.
In fact, that's the complaintwe always get in church, that
it's organic, there's noaccountability.
Well, that's not true at all.
We have more accountabilitythan you could ever imagine in a
(13:08):
normal church, but it'saccountability one to another.
It's not vertical, it'shorizontal, which is what one
another's are.
So I think when we use the wordleadership and I put it on the
cover of my book- but I thinkthat it does get in the way.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Two things.
Um, people immediately wantedto ask us the question like who?
Who are your, who's your?
Who are your elders?
Who are you submitted to?
You know you referenced likethere's more submission in the
group, between believers.
But then they asked thisquestion and this is what got us
in trouble.
On the mission field, I toldyou the story before about how
we went on the mission seal andwe decided not to go with an
(14:02):
organization.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Let me guess what's your covering?
Speaker 2 (14:04):
What's your covering?
You got it, and it's one of thethings that we catch the most
(14:26):
flack for Um, I don't have.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
you have and mentored and helped along, received that
flack more often than I do.
I have all the credentials.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yeah, I've got the ordination, I've got the MDiv,
I've got the doctoral degreethat was given to me, I've got
the stuff that written books andpastor at a church.
So they they didn't usuallythrow that at me, but at the
people that I trained it's a.
It's weird.
I mean you don't find a singleverse in the Bible that
questions someone's covering.
(14:56):
Sure.
That's not in the scriptures atall.
My response is always the same.
You know, if all authority ofheaven and earth is not enough
covering, then there's nothing Ican do for you.
Wow yeah.
All authority of heaven andearth commands you to make a
disciple.
Yep.
All authority of heaven andearth commands you to baptize
disciples.
(15:16):
Right.
And that's a command for allChristians, all followers of
Christ.
Yeah, so I think that's enoughcovering.
Yeah, so I think that's enoughcovering.
Yeah.
I think, when you start puttinghuman coverings over everything,
you are implementing amiddleman between God and his
people, you're creating amediator between God and his
people, and that's the placereserved only for Jesus.
(15:40):
Yeah, and it creates moreproblems than you can imagine.
Yeah.
Going back to what?
Speaker 2 (15:44):
you than you can imagine.
Yeah, Going back to what yousaid earlier about the word
leadership that's.
I think what I was going to saywas we've also seen that and
we're hesitant how strongly orhow much we use that word, and
we even chosen our own communityto use the word facilitator.
It was just more helpful for us.
It seemed like more closelyrelated to what they were
actually doing, and just stopanybody from from the temptation
(16:07):
of getting getting a big heador anything.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Yeah, you know, it's hard to find the word leader and
you, and when you do find theword leader in the new Testament
, it's usually in a negativelight.
Um, so we, we tend to look atChrist's words where he says you
know, pick up your cross,follow me, and we think or you
(16:37):
know words about not beingexercising authority over others
.
We tend to form new languagearound that called servant
leaders.
Right.
But actually he never told us tobe servant leaders.
He told us to be servants.
We need many more servants, notmany more leaders.
Right, I think if you're a goodservant, people will be
influenced.
Yeah.
They'll be closer to Jesus.
Yeah, but you can be a servantleader and still be a mediator
(17:01):
between God and men, and that'sa problem for me.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Yeah, I've heard it said before too.
Like you, look at thequalifications in those two
scriptures, I believe in Timothyand Titus, where it talks about
the qualifications of an elder,and people look through those
and it's funny because youwouldn't expect somebody not to
do those things Like, oh, if I'mnot a leader, can I abuse my
wife?
Speaker 1 (17:30):
You know, it's like all these things.
It's like yeah I know I writethat that's crazy, that that we
we call that qualifications ofan elder.
Yeah, that's also not in thescriptures.
What he says is if you aspireto be an elder, that's a good
thing.
Now it does.
They've.
The translation is incorrect.
I'll just say that boldly.
Yeah, sure, you can argue withme, you can disagree with me,
you have my permission.
But the word office is notthere.
(17:53):
It's supplied by thetranslators because they cannot
even imagine leadership oreldership without hierarchy.
So they threw it in there.
But it's not supposed to bethere and also I don't think
it's.
If you aspire to be in aposition of leadership, I think
(18:14):
the translation should be if youaspire to have a mentor, that's
a good thing.
Yeah.
And if you're looking for amentor, here are the qualities
that you look for.
And if you're looking for amentor, here are the qualities
that you look for, because theseare the qualities you want in
your life.
Yeah.
So this is not permission foryou to have more than one wife
because you're not an elder.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
This is saying when you want to follow someone on
that path, here's the qualitiesyou look for.
Yeah.
To get behind.
Yeah behind, because that'swhat you want, rubbing off on
your life.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah, I love when you break it down that way because
it starts to remove all of theseagain.
Going back to what we talkedabout previously the CEO,
learning from the CEO as opposedto the farmer or just the just
just what Jesus teaches.
(19:08):
Honestly, and it's funnybecause I'll look on certain
church websites and stuff likethat and even as the positions
are listed out, it's the, thesenior pastor, at the top, the
associate pastor and on down andit's and it's.
It's wild to me how closely achurch website is now looks like
a business website.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Well, and the word senior pastor?
It does exist in the Bible.
Yeah, Jesus himself is thechief shepherd.
Right.
So I would not put that on yourbusiness card, right?
I'm sorry.
In fact, let me just be honest.
I did have it on my businesscard.
I took it off when I were one,so I wouldn't use that language
(19:54):
if I were you.
But you know, we talk so much,we make so much of the elder
role, right, yeah, and so littleof the deacon.
Sure, the akhenos, which thedeacon role?
You have to be tested beforethis.
So we've used that word servantthere, deacon, to be a
(20:14):
descriptor for those who areless than elders, and the only
reason we've done that is one ofthe qualifications for the
elders they're able to teach.
Therefore, in our church, worldteaching is the highest
objective, therefore they'rehigher.
That's craziness.
There's nothing in thescripture indicating that elders
(20:35):
are above deacons and deaconsare not junior varsity elders
that clean up after the potluckand count the money after the
offering.
Yeah, that is when we startdefining spiritual gifts based
on what we do at this eventinstead of how we react to one
another in the missions in theworld, then we are really
(20:59):
minimizing God and his purposesand his people.
So I think and this is a breakfrom normal traditional
doctrines that the deacon andthe deaconess are the
expressions of the equippers ofthe Ephesians 4.11 passage, of
(21:20):
the equipers of the Ephesians4.11 passage, that they are the
servants are the equipers thathave a more broad regional
influence.
And that elders are morespiritual parents in a house,
church or organic church.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
When it comes to elder bishop or overseer
shepherd, do you think a lot ofthat language is interchangeable
or would you see all those asdifferent?
Speaker 1 (21:46):
So I wouldn't interchange elder and shepherd.
Okay.
I would see overlap, but Idon't see them as synonymous.
Okay, Elder and overseerthere's a little bit more of a
synonymous.
An elder is someone who seesover yeah they have enough
(22:08):
experience to look above theheads of people to see when
there's incoming yeah, and toprotect them um.
So that's really what it is.
There's crossover in a lot ofthis language, sure.
Sure.
And nobody is one thing forlife.
Yeah.
We all need to grow and emergeand let new gifts arise, and
grow more in Christlikeness,which means you have a long way
(22:31):
to go and I have a long way togo.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yeah, that's good.
I think that's a good bridgewayto kind of enter into the
conversation about the APASgifts.
And so for the people thataren't super familiar with that
number one, could you tell uswhat APES is?
You know what are those giftsand how does that?
What is the connection betweenleadership, eldership, all that
(22:57):
and the APES gifts in the church.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
So first I'll answer the second question first.
Yeah, that's fine, get it outof the way.
The eldership I think iseldership is literally someone
who's older, more experienced.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
That's what it is.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Now, the word elder didn't just appear for the first
time in 1 Timothy 3.
Right, it's throughout the OldTestament.
Every city had elders.
They were spiritual fathers ofthat or not spiritual fathers.
They were the fathers of thecity.
Yeah.
They were the peopleresponsible to care for the
(23:35):
ongoing needs of the community.
Yeah.
So that's what an elder is.
So for me, in my expression ofthe kingdom of God, an elder
would be anybody who is takingcare of a house, a spiritual
family a house church, anorganic church.
They could be only two stepsfurther down the path than the
(23:59):
other people.
Yeah, they could be only twosteps further down the path than
the other people.
So when Paul wrote to Timothy,don't appoint a new convert to
be an elder.
You have to look at context.
Timothy was in Ephesus, wherePaul had spent three solid years
training all these people andthey had been going and fruitful
for a long time.
So when you appoint a newconvert to be an elder, there's
(24:23):
a problem, not that he's goingto lead poorly, which is what we
immediately go to, but thatit's going to mess with his
heart or her heart.
Suddenly they're going to thinkhighly of themselves more
highly, and so that's what Paulsays.
He says, unless they suffer fromthe same temptation as the
(24:44):
devil and they have pride.
Yep.
But when he writes about eldersto Titus, who happens to be
pioneering new church plantingworks in Crete, he doesn't add
the qualification don't appointa new convert, because that's
all there is.
Yeah, there's new converts,right?
So all you need to be an elderreally is to be two steps
(25:09):
further in your experience ofwalking with christ than someone
else.
Wow, yeah, and and help themfind that path.
Yeah, that's, that's all thatis.
And so I think every organicchurch has some elder in it that
is respected.
My church said, hey, we don'thave elders because we didn't
have positions and titles.
I says, yes, we do.
It says, no, nobody's beenappointed an elder, we haven't
(25:32):
had a vote.
Okay, I said, well, okay, letme show you how we have elders.
Everybody close their eyes,they all close their eyes.
Okay, let me show you how wehave elders.
Everybody close their eyes,they all close their eyes.
So when I say, open your eyes,don't speak, just look around
the room and look at the face ofeverybody in the room and ask
yourself one question when thisperson speaks up, do I want to
hear what they have to say?
(25:52):
yeah ready, set go and everybodysaid, yeah, we have.
We have elders Right, it's afunctional thing, not a
positional thing, correct?
So that's how I feel about theelders, about the deacons and
(26:13):
deaconesses, it's interestingthat there's female deacons and
male deacons.
So you have female apostles inthe New Testament, in Romans 16.
You have female prophets in theNew Testament, both in Acts,
and you have females.
You have women teaching in theNew Testament, being commanded
to teach.
So I think that you can havethe apest roles and they're much
(26:36):
more regional in theirinfluence.
They're not just focused on oneband of people in a home or a
family.
They're exercising an equippingfunction for multiple of these
house churches.
Yeah.
And that's how I see those rolesfunctioning.
So the best way for me todescribe them is using the hand.
(26:58):
So you have five fingers, youhave five gifts.
A-p-e-s stands for Apostle,prophet, evangelist, shepherd,
teacher.
Some use the word fivefold.
We used to call them the 4-1-1team because, based on Ephesians
4-11.
Yeah, yeah.
So the apostles?
Like the thumb, I'm out of here, I'm hitching a ride, I'm going
to the next town.
(27:19):
Like the thumb, I'm out of here, I'm hitching a ride, I'm going
to the next town, I'm notstaying.
That is literally what it meansto be a sent one.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Now we've redefined the gift, so that you don't have
to go and you can be a sent one, which is a problem for me, see
.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
And then we talk about Pauline and Petrine
apostles, and Pauline are oneswho go, and Petrine ones are
ones that stay, but that's notwhat I see with Peter or Paul.
And that wasn't the intent ofwhat he was saying in Galatians
2.
So I think that's finding anexcuse for someone who stays.
Sure.
(27:56):
So apostles?
Someone who's going, they'resent.
Sure, so apostles are someonewho's going, they're sent.
The prophet is the straight andnarrow forefinger that's
pointing the way.
They're the navigators, they'rethe ones who say there's the
real threat.
They're the ones that when youare in sin, like Nathan did to
David, you're the one you needto repent Right.
(28:16):
And they're often the ones whoruin all our strategy planning
meetings by saying let's ask godwhat he thinks now.
The apostle and prophet are twogifts that are meant to work
together.
There are verses in the gospels, in the epistles and even in
(28:36):
revelation where the two giftsare mentioned together apostles
and prophets.
But they are opposite gifts, sothey're complementary, and
because of that they oftentimesclash and don't get along and
they split up and we lose ourfoundations.
That's a big, huge problem inthe church yeah.
(28:58):
I can find apostles, I can findprophets.
What I can't find is themworking together for the long
haul.
Interesting.
In fact, barnabas was probablyprophetic, paul apostle.
They only lasted one journey.
Silas was a prophet, paul wasan apostle.
They only lasted one journey.
It's really common for thesegifts not to work together.
(29:18):
So when they do work together,they become a weapon in the
hands of God.
In fact, where Paul writes, ourweapons are not of this world
but are divinely powerful forthe destruction of strongholds
risen up against the knowledgeof God.
He's not talking about allChristians, that passage in
(29:42):
context.
He's talking about theapostolic gifts, because
chapters 10 to the end of 2Corinthians is him defending
apostolic gifts and authorityand he says there's two parts to
the apostolic authority thetearing down of strongholds and
the building up of the church.
And when these two gifts worktogether, that's what happens.
(30:06):
That's how a foundation is laid.
We tear down the strongholds ofdarkness, the enemy who blinds
the minds of the unbelievers, sothey can be receptive.
And we build up that church, sothey can be receptive and we
build up that church.
So I think we need to recapturethis prophetic weaponry in our
spiritual warfare.
The prophets see it, they seethe enemy, they see the warfare,
(30:31):
but they don't have that weaponof divine power to shut it down
so they do a prophetic act andthey pray.
Now, don't minimize prayer.
It does things, yeah, it'seffective and it's powerful, but
it doesn't destroy the works ofthe devil, which is what jesus
(30:51):
came to do the apostate.
We can't.
We can't kill the demons, wecan't lock them in prison.
That's not our authority yeahthat's not even michael even
says the lord rebuke you.
I can't do, it sure, so what?
What we can do is shut downtheir works yeah so that's what
these two gifts are meant for,but unfortunately they don't get
along.
Because the prophet is allabout um, god must do the work,
(31:17):
and only God, not men.
And then the apostle's allabout creating wineskins to help
people do the work.
They see that as a clash andthey don't get along.
And when that happens, everyoneloses.
Yeah, wow.
So we need to find a way.
And so the way that I get alongwith my prophetic partner in
(31:38):
life, and that's Desi Baker SureDesi and I, a long time I
learned the language that I getalong with my prophetic partner
in life, and that's Desi BakerSure Desi and I, a long time I
learned the language that helps.
I said listen, desi.
I learned three little wordsthat help and this will help you
get along with prophets, whowill also help you have better
marriages.
You say you are right.
That's music to the ears of aprophet.
(31:58):
They live their whole lifebeing told they're wrong.
Yeah.
And so when someone wants tohear what they have to say and
affirm that it's true, it meansso much.
So I say you are right, it isall about God, and God must do
the work.
All I want to do.
So, in essence, what I'm sayingis you're right, it's all about
(32:20):
the wine.
Jesus is the wine, but I don'twant to spill a drop of that
precious wine, so I'm going tobuild a wineskin to carry it.
Yep.
But as soon as this plasticbottle is empty, it's of no
value Recycle it.
The wineskin is not what'simportant, it's the wine.
(32:42):
Yeah, when, when I use thatlanguage, desi can trust me yeah
and I can trust him.
And so he becomes the navigationfor the weapon and I have the
power to shut it.
So good, that's the apostle andprophet, the evangelist, like
the middle finger that reachesfurther than the others and is
most likely to offend people.
So in Los Angeles, on thefreeways, there's a lot of
(33:07):
people with a gift ofevangelists and they let me know
and I always give them myapostolic thumb right back.
The evangelist is the mostwinsome of the gifts.
You learn a lot about thesegifts just in their name.
So an evangelist is good news.
(33:28):
Who doesn't like good news?
Everybody wants to hear goodnews.
Man, if that's your gift,everybody likes you.
Everybody wants to be aroundyou.
Everybody likes you.
Everybody wants to be aroundyou.
Everybody thinks you'recharming and loving and good and
you speak so well and, man, Ilike who you are and they want
to receive what you have to say.
(33:50):
And so those are the people inthe kingdom of God that you know
, like my friend Rick Warren andothers, they just, they're just
, everybody likes them, and theyend up being representatives to
the world of the church the DLMoody's, the George Whitefield's
, the Billy Graham's.
Who speaks to presidents andkings.
That's the evangelist's giftand they draw in, whereas the
(34:15):
apostle sends out.
So there's a lot of crossoverwith those two gifts, apostle
and evangelist.
But the apostle is constantlysending out and empowering
others, whereas the evangelistis drawing in, and the
difference in that is like.
So, in a sense, the apostle isrepellent and the evangelist is
(34:39):
attractional, attractive, so,long haul, the apostle ends up
being forgotten.
They started a work, but thenthey move on and the work
continues and the people doingthe work are not, are not having
to give credit to the apostle,they're just doing it themselves
(35:01):
, and so the apostle can beforgotten.
And you look at Paul's life andthe churches of Asia Minor
rejected him.
Yeah.
That's so sad, but that's true.
When he died, he died alone,except for Luke.
Yeah, it was common.
He had to defend himself as anapostle all the time, because
(35:21):
the energy behind the apostle isgiven out to others, it's
distributed.
The evangelist is a collectiveenergy.
So that's the differencebetween the two and they're both
needed.
And then the shepherd is likethe ring finger and wants to
communicate to the world.
I'm committed to one brideuntil death.
(35:41):
Do us part.
And when Jesus talked about theshepherd gift, that's how he
defined it.
The shepherd is not thehireling who is paid to do a job
, to manage a flock, because ahireling you'll do fine until
the paycheck stops and then youleave.
Or the wolf comes and you'renot willing to die for a
(36:02):
paycheck, you leave.
The shepherd will stay when thepaycheck stops.
The shepherd will stay when thewolf comes.
So they are committed.
And so when you find a matureshepherd in a movement, it's too
late.
They already have a flock andthey're not going to leave it.
They're going to stay with thatflock till the end.
(36:23):
Yeah, so we need to producemore shepherds regularly yeah
and I think elders do cross overwith that.
Eldership in house churches isan opportunity for a young
shepherd to to refine thosegifts so that later they can
maybe shepherd more people.
But they can only get up to 150people.
(36:44):
Yeah, it's been determined byrobin dunbar they call it the
dunbar number that 150 is yourmax number of intimate friends
that you can have.
Yeah, so a shepherd wants toknow everyone.
They, they have a limitedcapacity so so we need more of
them.
And if you make a fist and youtry to raise just your shepherd
(37:05):
finger, it becomes very hard todo.
Some people can do it easierthan others, but the truth is
it's attached to the other gifts, it wants to be with others.
So the reason we have an APESteam in our history for 30 years
now is because I started with ashepherd.
I can't even do it.
(37:25):
The two of us working together,the shepherd makes the teamwork
.
The shepherd wants to heareveryone's voice.
Everyone matters for theshepherd.
I would have just formed a teamaround apostles and evangelists
and that would have been enough,but because the shepherd was
there, it let every voice count.
(37:47):
It formed a team.
The teacher is the smallest ofall the gifts, the weakest
actually, and that's the onlygift where the Bible says let
not many become teachers,because if they're doing their
job Because you don't really ifthey're doing their job right,
you don't need a lot of them,because their job is not to do
the ministry but to equip thesaints to do the ministry.
(38:09):
So the evangelist doesn't dothe evangelism, the evangelist
trains others to do evangelism.
The teacher doesn't teach thesaints, but equips the saints to
teach.
Yep.
And there are many verses whereit says everyone should teach.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Yeah, Hebrews 5.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Hebrews 5, Colossians 3, 1 Corinthians 14.
Yeah.
And if that's not enough, theGreat Commission which we
believe everyone should do.
Hebrews 5 is really good becauseit says by now all of you ought
to be teachers.
All you can handle is milk, andmilk is what it's a
(38:50):
pre-digested meal.
The mother eats, the mealabsorbs the nutrients and it
comes out for the baby throughthe gland as milk.
That's what a sermon is.
A sermon is a pre-digested mealfor babies, infants, and our
churches are full of babies,infants.
(39:11):
They can't feast themselves onthe Word, they have to only
receive it through a sermon.
Our church is full ofmilkaholics, lactose dependents,
that come every week hoping tobe fed milk.
True meat is when you digestthe word yourself and practice
(39:32):
it in obedience, and that's whatwe need more of.
So if a teacher is equippingothers to teach, then they work
themselves out of a job quickly.
Yeah, we don't need as many ofthem, because their job is to
equip others to do the work ofteaching, and that actually gets
(39:53):
the movement moving outwardinstead of staying inward, with
one specialized, equippedteacher to do all the teaching.
Sure.
Do all the thinking foreverybody.
Yep, you know, the teacher'sgoal is that we have sound
doctrine, and so they want tomake sure there are no heretics
and people are orthodox.
(40:14):
That's their passion, right,yeah, but they do it in such a
way that they do all thethinking for everybody, so they
create people who can't thinkfor themselves, don't know the
scriptures themselves, andthey're more easily led astray
because of it.
All you need to do is getsomeone at the top with a degree
and suddenly they could leadthem all kinds of false ways.
(40:34):
So the best way is to teachthem to teach, and you and I
know we've taught.
When you teach, you learn morethan anybody else in that room
100%.
So if you want your people tolearn, have them teach.
Yeah.
And if that's the case, then Isuggest you also allow them to
make mistakes.
Yeah.
I don't know of any soundteacher that ever could say I
(40:58):
never taught something that waswrong.
I never made a mistake, I nevermisinterpreted the Bible.
That's how you learn.
That's the education.
So let them make mistakes.
The Bible is withstood 2000years of bad preaching.
It can hold its own.
So those are the five gifts.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
That's really good.
I think, too, that brings upsomething that you mentioned of
um, maybe a fear of a lot ofpeople, like they see that the
the model of having a soundteacher at the top as a
mechanism of uh you know wetalked about covering as a
mechanism of protection.
Um, because I'm under thisteacher with this degree and
(41:38):
he's under a denomination thatyou know quote unquote holds him
accountable, uh, or whateverseminary that he went to, then
I'm more protected againstheresy.
But, as I've heard you discussbefore, that's not necessarily a
protection mechanism.
It could quite actually workthe opposite.
Um, how would you say, whatwould you say to people that are
(41:59):
concerned that what you'reexplaining is more apt to fall
into heresy, or even what wehear a lot is turned into a cult
.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
One man's heresy is another man's orthodoxy, so we
got to get that out there.
Yeah, I think that if you thinkseminary is what prevents
heresy, then you're not payingattention to history, because
all those schools that we'reafraid are so woke and teaching
all kinds of weird things, theyall started as seminaries.
(42:34):
Right, that's true.
Yeah, so a lot of false teachingcomes from seminary.
That's not going to be oursalvation.
Yeah, we don't needbetter-trained pulpits.
Yeah, we need better-trainedpews.
We need people who know theWord of God so they're not
(42:56):
easily led astray.
And the system we've created,where experts do the thinking
for you, that creates dumberpeople, not smarter people.
I can remember when I was in adenomination I was asked to be
on a task force to examine howwe examine pastors for licensure
(43:17):
, and in this particulardenomination, the only one who
can license or ordain a pastoris a church.
So I looked at that and I says,well then, why do we exist as a
board to do this?
Why don't we just let thechurches do it?
And one of the pastors says, no, we can't do that.
(43:37):
They've not been trained,they've not been to seminary,
they don't know how to determinethis.
And so I said to him okay,let's just say his name is
Robert.
Robert, that's not his name, isa nice guy.
I got you, robert.
How long have you been at yourchurch?
20 years.
So let me understand this.
For 20 years, 50 Sundays a year, you've been teaching these
(44:04):
people and they're still notsmart enough to know what's
right and wrong.
Yikes, yeah, I don't thinkyou're doing well as a teacher.
If that's the case, he hadnothing to reply.
Sure, it's a mentality issuethat there are experts that have
more anointing from God Right,that have closer access to
(44:30):
understand God, and they thenbring the word of God to the
people so they can know God.
But that creates a middleman,that creates, that creates a
mediator, so that you can't knowGod without this person's help.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
That's a huge problem , Kind of a Moses mentality.
You'll hear people referencethe old Testament a lot when
they they can only because it'snot in the new Testament.
Yeah, you say also in in primalfire that, uh, you feel like
the church has has sidelined alot of gifts.
Obviously, we know that theshepherding gift is exalted in
many ways.
(45:01):
Talk about that further.
What gifts have we sidelinedand and how do we get get back
to seeing them all utilized?
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Yeah Well, first of all, it's important to know that
the the word pastor as a nounapplied to someone other than
Jesus in the New Testament isonly one time Sure, and that's
Ephesians 4.11.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
Yep, and it's in the plural.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
That's enough to know there are shepherds.
Sure, I'm not discounting it.
Yep.
But to make that the only rolethat's available.
And the truth is, you sayshepherd is the most prominent,
that's the most prominent wordto describe them, but the truth
is they're not shepherds.
There's been a coup in the bodyof Christ where one gift has
(45:51):
taken over all the others, butit's not the shepherd, that
wouldn't even be the ambition ofa shepherd, it it's the teacher
Interesting, who took the termshepherd.
In fact, in the coup, what theytaught us is that, first of all
, apostles and prophets are nolonger for today and the word
shepherd actually is shepherd.
(46:12):
Teachers one role and theyteach.
And look what they did to us.
Yeah.
They left the evangelistoutstanding in the field.
Literally, they made him souncomfortable that the shepherd
left the institutional church toform parachurch organizations,
to fulfill the Great Commission.
And we are left with a churchled only by teachers, and
(46:34):
everything about church isdesigned by teachers.
You sit in rows with a pulpitup front.
Who would design that?
A shepherd would have couches.
It'd be much more intimate.
An evangelist would have astadium.
A prophet would be in a cave upin the mountain, in the
wilderness, somewhere.
An apostle wouldn't have abuilding.
I'm just going to meet in yourhome.
That is so true.
(46:56):
So, shepherds, in fact, you aregiven a choice you become a
missionary or you become apastor.
Now, when I was younger, I hadonly those two options Pastor,
which means teacher, ormissionary.
You know how I became thosethings.
It didn't matter If I chose tobe a missionary.
(47:18):
I still had to go four years toan academic institution and get
a degree.
Who would design a system likethat?
Imagine an evangelist beingsent to a Christian college in
the middle of nowhere, podunkMidwest, in a school full of
Christians.
(47:38):
No evangelist would ever agreeto that.
No, torture.
No apostle would want to dothat.
No, no prophet would want to dothat.
We've created a system thatonly allows teachers to lead and
we talk about churches.
What Sunday school or Christianeducation?
(47:58):
Yeah.
It's all been dominated by onegift and I don't want to get rid
of that gift.
I have that gift, yeah, but Iwant all the gifts to work.
Yeah, it's all been dominatedby one gift and I don't want to
get rid of that gift.
I have that gift, yeah, but Iwant all the gifts to work.
Yeah, if you're baking a cake,it requires five ingredients,
and if you only have two, you'renot making cake You're not even
half baked.
Oh yeah, so you need all fiveingredients.
(48:19):
In a sense, we need all fiveand we cannot be dominated by
one.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Yep, no, that is really good, and I'm still.
I'm going to have to chew onthat for a while, because when
you said that, it became soclear that we've titled, we've
labeled something, we've labeledit pastor, but really the
majority of the people in thepulpit are not actually
shepherds, and I've even seenthat in my experience of like
kind of the megachurches thatwe've been part of, that there's
(48:46):
sometimes our evangelists inthe pulpit and so they're
bringing, they're attracting somany people.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Well, that's led to not a disagreement but a
different emphasis that I havewith my good friend, alan Hirsch
.
He's oftentimes will say thatapes have been exiled from the
church, and apes he meansapostles, prophets and
evangelists.
I agree that apostles andprophets have been exiled, and
(49:18):
it used to be that evangelistswere exiled, but it is no longer
the case With the church growthmovement.
They were not only welcomed inthe church, they sit at the head
of the table now, and that iswhy we've gone from very few
megachurches to having moremegachurches in every city and
(49:40):
every town, because theevangelist now is leading in the
church.
Yep.
Their voice is stronger than theothers, and so they're bringing
in a lot of people growing achurch, but they're not actually
increasing the percentage ofborn-again followers of Christ
in our culture.
Yeah.
They're just drawing people into build a church.
(50:02):
That's the evangelist.
So they were once exiled andstarted parachurch ministries,
but not recently.
Recently they have turnedchurches into parachurch
organizations Right right.
In a sense, they've turned theminto a corporation.
Yeah.
(50:22):
And I'm not saying, allevangelists did that.
No, or did that, no, or doingthat, but I am saying that now,
the evangelist isn't.
So oftentimes churches arebuilt on a teacher foundation or
an evangelist foundation.
Yes, and that's not the rightfoundation.
Yeah, no I needed gifts, butthey're not the right start.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
What does it look like?
Moving forward, um, with seeingthose gifts arise without there
being just a bunch ofself-appointed people around.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
I think this is a bigger question than just
leadership or gifts, and we'vetouched on this already it's the
hierarchical expression ofchurch.
That's the problem.
Yeah, yeah.
So whether you put a evangelistat the top of the pyramid or a
teacher at the top of thepyramid, or an apostle at the
top of the pyramid, whoever's atthe top of the pyramid is
(51:11):
making a mistake because it'sthe pyramid that's the problem.
Yep, so that is uh antagonisticto the teachings of christ yes
it will not be so among you.
Yeah, says jesus.
So if we eliminate the pyramidand it all becomes relational
(51:33):
and it's all horizontal insteadof vertical, and our only
vertical accountability is tochrist and to one another, it's
all horizontal.
Then you don't have the need toprint business cards with
Apostle so-and-so on it, correct?
Yeah.
And so in our movement, I'venever met a prophet in this
(51:57):
world and I have traveled to60-plus nations and met a lot of
people.
I've never met a prophet asseasoned and sound as the one I
walk beside daily, and that'sDesi Baker, but he refuses to
call himself a prophet.
Sure.
He says I function in aprophetic gift.
Yeah, and the reason is it'skind of a reactive reason but
(52:20):
it's a reaction toself-appointed apostles and
prophets and teachers and allthat.
I think we need to care lessabout our title and you know,
each one of you has a new namein heaven and you don't even
know what it is.
Jesus will give that to you,carved on a white stone, someday
, and it won't be on a businesscard.
(52:42):
Yeah, and it won't be on abusiness card.
Your identity needs to be morethan pastor or teacher or rabbi
or apostle, this or prophet.
That it needs to be.
I am a follower of Christ andnothing more.
Follow me only so much as Ifollow Christ.
(53:02):
Now, the truth is and I'm kindof a biblicist by nature that
Paul does identify himself Iapostle of Christ, sent by God,
not by men.
I see that, I know that.
But I also see the context he'sin and what that means to be
apostolic versus what it means2,000 years later of
(53:25):
hierarchical church structures.
Yes.
And so I wouldn't assume, Iwouldn't accept the title Pope
and I'm not going to accept thetitle.
I wouldn't accept the wordBishop, which is New Testament,
that's biblical.
Yeah.
Because we've polluted it somuch.
Yeah, in fact, I don't use theword pastor.
(53:47):
Yeah, you'll notice, I use theword shepherd, because pastor
implies a position.
Shepherd implies, in my culture, a function.
Sure, that's all it really isis functions.
Yeah, jesus made himself of noreputation and asked us to do
(54:10):
the same.
Have this attitude inyourselves, which was also in
Christ Jesus.
Yeah.
So I think we need to be apeople who make less of
ourselves because we're makingmore of Christ in others.
Yeah.
That's the kind of influencerthat will change the world.
Self-appointed leaders I don'thave much trust in the way you
(54:36):
discover your gift.
There's five things that I seehappening with Paul in the New
Testament that helps meunderstand.
This is where my calling is.
So five things First God toldhim listen to.
God.
God said you are an apostle tothe nations.
That is conversion.
I'm sure that he held on tothat his whole life and you may
(55:00):
not have that kind of revelation, but God might have given you
glimpses and hints of yourdestiny along the way.
Go back and look at theformation of your life and see
what are the fingerprints of Godon your formation.
So listen to God.
Secondly, listen to the church.
Church Paul went to Jerusalem.
(55:27):
Peter, james and John said tohim you are an apostle to the
Gentiles.
In the same way, peter is anapostle to the Jews.
So listen to the church.
Thirdly, listen to yourself.
Inside of you is a passion todo something, so much so that
when all doors close and peoplesay we don't do that in this
building, you'll find a way todo it, because you cannot deny
it.
It's a compulsion.
As Paul says, I have astewardship that gets a reward,
(55:51):
but even if I don't, I have acompulsion.
I have to do this.
Listen to God, listen to thechurch, listen to yourself,
listen to the people whose livesyou've touched.
Yeah.
The people who know you the best.
Yep.
What are they saying about yourstrengths?
So Paul writes the Corinthiansare doubting his apostolic gift
(56:12):
because of false apostles.
He says listen, I don't need aletter of recommendation to you,
you are my letter ofrecommendation, that's right the
fact that the Corinthian churchexists proves I'm an apostle.
You've had many teachers.
You've only had one father andthat's me.
So that's you're my letter ofrecommendation.
(56:34):
So ask the people whose livesyou are closest to that.
See you act the most.
Ask them They'll tell you.
Listen to them, to them.
And finally and I'm going tochange the language don't listen
to this person, but payattention to what he's saying
that's satan.
What does the enemy say aboutyou?
What does he attack the most inyour life?
(56:56):
Where does he drop the mostbombs?
What is he most threatened byin your life?
Well, pay attention to that andstart using it, because if he
doesn't want you to do this,then there's some reason he's
threatened by it.
Go do it.
So Paul says to no one else I'man apostle, I bear on my back
(57:20):
the scars of an apostle.
Speaker 2 (57:23):
You just take off my shirt and you will know I'm an
apostle, because I've got thewhip marks yeah, not the white
jacket and the fancy shoes yeah,no, yeah that's really good and
that's really helpful, and I'mglad you mentioned that because
I know there's a lot of peoplethat are wondering like, how do
I even know?
Yeah, um, but I love that you.
I love that you framed it in away of understanding that our
(57:44):
identity is in Christ and so,regardless of how he uses you
and what you're gifted tofunction in, you cannot allow
that function or that gifting tobecome your identity.
Speaker 1 (57:52):
No, in fact, all of these gifts.
I often ask this question who'sthe best example, human example
, of an apostle in the NewTestament?
And most of the people I talkto will immediately say Paul.
If it's Catholic audiencethey'd say Peter.
But the truth is Peter and Paulwould both say Jesus, he's also
(58:13):
the prophet who is to come,he's the best evangelist, he is
the great shepherd and he israbbi and teacher.
So he is all five.
So the truth is, if you haveChrist in you, you have access
to all five of these gifts.
You no longer have thepermission to say I'm not gifted
(58:33):
, in that.
In fact, if this is yourweakest gift, you should grow in
it, because that's what itmeans to grow in Christlikeness.
You shouldn't be satisfied bysaying I never shepherd yeah
well then, you never do whatjesus did.
wow, that's not right.
You need to grow in all of them.
That doesn't mean that you arean apostle, prophet, evangelist,
(58:56):
shepherd and a teacher, becausein order to become any of these
, you mature to a place whereyou not only are doing apostolic
type work, but you're nowequipping others to be apostles,
you're equipping others to beteachers, you're training people
to teach others.
That's when you actually becomean equipper of others and
(59:17):
that's when you mature to be.
That's why the Bible says youcould have the gift of prophecy
and not be a prophet.
You could have the gift ofprophecy and not be a prophet.
You could have the gift ofteaching and not be a teacher.
The difference is not the giftgiven to you.
The difference is theexperience and the wisdom and
the maturity that turns you fromjust being teaching to becoming
(59:37):
a teacher of others, anequipper.
So we can all mature and growin these things, but none of us
live long enough to become amature equipper in all can all
mature and grow in these things,but we, none of us, live long
enough to become a matureequipper in all five yeah,
except jesus that's right, butyou will float and you'll have
strengths and you can become.
There's seasons in my life whereI'm mostly a teacher yeah and
there's other.
(59:58):
Most of my life I've beenapostolic, but not all of it,
and there's a time when I washighly prophetic and now that's
dropped down and I'm more of ashepherd.
These are fluid, yeah, butoverall, as you look back over
your life, one gift will be morepredominant your primary gift.
That'll indicate your calling,but if you're thrust into
(01:00:19):
another situation where that'snot needed, you'll find other
strengths come up.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
It makes me think of the scripture, about the
greatest gift you know, um youknow, desire the, the, the
greatest gift.
And I don't know.
Paul in some of that contextspeaks about prophecy, but to me
, um, the greatest gift is whatis needed.
Where are you?
What season are you in?
Who's the person in front ofyou?
Cause a person that needshealing in front of you may need
(01:00:44):
the gift of healing more thanthey need a prophetic word.
And so when I heard thatinitially from you about the
fluidity of the APES gifts, forsome people that might be like
it might catch them off guard,for me it was.
It gave me such peace becauseI'm like that.
It was.
It gave me such peace becauseI'm like that.
(01:01:05):
Not not only did it align withmy experience to where I felt
like I don't have to like landin this one place and be stuck
there forever and then also denythe other things in my life and
say I can't do that because I'mnot good at that, but it
allowed, like it allowed me tothink through that and go, yeah,
if Christ is in me, if the HolySpirit is in me, what's not in
him?
And then, in that line ofthought, what's not in me?
(01:01:25):
So there may be things thatwould be dormant in me, but as
the Holy Spirit desires, he canbring those things out of me.
So now I go into any situationand say I am in prison by myself
.
I'm not going to sit there andsay, well, unfortunately I can't
teach this person because myfriend who has the gift of
(01:01:45):
teaching is not in prison withme.
No, christ is in you and youcan become those things.
And so last night we werespeaking a little bit and you
had mentioned that over timeyou've realized that the order
that those gifts flow in yourlife has has changed a little
bit, and that was so cool.
And that was so cool and it'ssomething that I think I'll I'll
keep in the back of my mind forthe rest of my life to make
sure that I'm I'm not justtrying to function in something
(01:02:08):
the Lord is trying to shift inmy life.
If that makes sense, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
I think, ultimately, it's better that you people may
need a teacher, they may need anapostle, but I'll tell you what
they need.
More than that, they need Jesus, yeah, and sometimes you are
Jesus to them.
You are the incarnate Christ inyou as the hope of glory and
(01:02:34):
nothing else is.
It's not your gift.
In fact, we make so much ofgifts that we lose sight of the
fact that gifts are lessimportant than fruit.
The gifts of the Spirit aregiven freely and they are not
revoked.
They are not taken away.
(01:02:54):
So you go off the deep end andyou start living a sinful carnal
life.
You still have that gift.
Right.
I led someone to the Lord whowas an evangelist and he led so
many to Christ and he walkedwith Christ for seven years and
then he went back on crackcocaine and when he's buying
(01:03:15):
crack cocaine from a gang member, he led him to Christ and then
bought the cocaine Walking incomplete sin, still had the
cocaine Walking in complete sinstill have the gift.
So, when we measure people'sspirituality by their gifts,
we're making a huge mistake.
Sure, but that's what we do.
Oh yeah.
You know, this guy's a goodspeaker and people come to
(01:03:37):
Christ.
Therefore he's anointed.
Yeah.
Everyone who has the HolySpirit's anointed.
Amen Right.
Yeah, anointing means thepresence of God on your life,
and a 13-year-old girl living inthe hood, a girl of color who's
constantly bound to awheelchair, accepted Christ this
(01:04:00):
morning has as much access toGod as the pastor who's been
preaching, who has multipledegrees, who's been preaching
for 50 years.
He doesn't have more access toGod than she does.
The first will be last, thelast will be first, and access
to God is our power, is ouranointing, is our authority, and
(01:04:25):
that's where the fruit comesfrom.
And so it may take the form orshape of a gift, but the truth
is, jesus didn't say you'll knowthem by their gifts.
He said that you'll know themby their fruit.
And then he went on to say manywill say to me Lord, did I not
prophesy in your name, cast outdemons in your name, perform
(01:04:45):
miracles in your name, gift,gift, gift.
And he'll say I never knew you.
So it's not the gifts of theSpirit that are most important,
it's the fruit of the Spirit.
And the fruit of the Spirit islove, joy, peace, patience,
kindness, goodness, gentleness,faithfulness, self-control.
Against these there's no law,and that 13-year-old girl in the
(01:05:10):
hood can be as loving as theguy who's been reading God's
Word for 50 years.
Sure.
Now there's one thing he hasthat she doesn't have Time
experience, wisdom.
That comes from that.
I'm not guaranteeing you couldlive 50 years reading the word
and preaching and still beimmature.
(01:05:30):
Sure, I met several, yeah, buteven if best case scenario that
guy's been preaching god's wordfor 50 years and he has grown
the whole time, the onlyadvantage he has is maturity and
experience.
She has an advantage he doesn'thave and that's childlike faith
(01:05:51):
.
Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
So I think we need to get to the place where we
understand the anointing of Godis what the gospel brings to all
of us that equal access to God.
Because of that, my role inlife isn't to be your voice for
God or to teach you everythingabout God.
My role is to help you learnfrom God.
(01:06:18):
So we don't emphasize teachingas much as learning.
When you shift the languagefrom teaching to learning,
suddenly it changes all the wayyou evaluate what you're doing.
I'm more interested in whatyou're learning and, frankly,
you're going to learn more whenyou start teaching.
Speaker 2 (01:06:35):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
Then, rather than listen to me, teach, and it just
turns everything upside down.
Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
Yeah, that's so good.
Well, Neil, this has been a areally rich episode.
Uh, honestly, much deeper thanI thought we'd go, when I'm so
excited to honestly go throughit again myself.
Um, I hope you guys have haveenjoyed this and, uh, let us
know down in the comments, uh,if you can just maybe some of
(01:07:00):
the, some of the takeaways andsome of the ways that this helps
helps you and you're able toapply, uh, some of the takeaways
and some of the ways that thishelps you and you're able to
apply some of this stuff to yourlife.
I'm just so grateful for Neil'stime.
I do want to let you know thata lot of if you enjoyed this
particular podcast and what wetalked about in the APES GIFs,
Neil did write a book calledPrimal Fire, which has gone out
of print, but we have good news.
(01:07:21):
It'll soon be back into printhere shortly, and so once that
is, I'll get you guys a linkdown below and also be on the
lookout for his book on Audible,so he'll have an Audible
version of this as well.
That might be out in the nextfew months, depending on when
you watch this podcast, butwe'll make sure to link all that
below so you can dig deeper onthis topic.
Neil, thanks again so much.
(01:07:42):
You're welcome For coming outhere and so much for your time.
We really appreciate it andexcited to see how many people
are influenced and impacted bythis.
Speaker 1 (01:07:52):
It's my pleasure to be here.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.