Why Discipleship Has DIED In The Western Church | #reChurch Ep. 04

Today we’re hitting BIG questions on why Discipleship has DIED in the Western Church.

In this episode, we will discuss how:
1. Entertainment-driven models of "Church" are a major contributor
2. How The Church is not a "hospital for the broken"
3. How we revive true discipleship that actually works

✅ Follow Justin:

https://www.instagram.com/justin.knoop

https://www.youtube.com/@reChurchPodcast

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
But you're not helping the person that is
giving you 25% and they're notresponding and God's not moving
in their situation.
Love them.
It doesn't mean you need tolike reject them or anything
like that, but that's not whereyou pour the most of your time
and that's what Jesus did.
Jesus said I only do what I seemy father doing.
So he was very intentionalabout the people that he poured
into.
And we literally interrupt theHoly Spirit's conviction and

(00:23):
stop someone from genuinerepentance.
Like that's serious.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
It's kind of like open heart surgery.
Like you know it's hurting,they just busted open somebody's
chest cavity.
But you come in there andyou're like, oh, let me fix it
sooner than the work's actuallyneeding to be done.
You know, the doctor's like I'mnot finished yet.
Why are you sewing it up?

Speaker 1 (00:40):
You know, and I was trying to stop the bleeding too
quickly when he actually neededto bleed for a minute you know,
goodness, once you really startto break this down, you start to
realize you're like, oh mygoodness, that is the model in
the Bible, like we're actuallydoing the complete opposite.
We've got the barn and we'reopening the doors and we're
saying come on in come on in,and then we look and we're like

(01:02):
they're not coming.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
They're not coming, come on in, come on in and then
we look and we're like they'renot coming.
They're not coming.
What do we do?
Or we start decorating the barnand playing music.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
That's the person that's going to stand before
Jesus and be like listen, I'venever.
I never knew you, I've neverknew you.
And who's responsible for that?
Welcome to the ReChurch podcast.
If you, my friend, are tired ofbusiness as usual Christianity
and ready to live just likeJesus, you have found yourself
in the right place.
I'm your host, justin Noop.

(01:29):
I'm here with my lovely wife,brooke Noop.
Brooke, say hello to the people.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
Hello, hello, hello.
How are you?
Doing today, I hope everybody'sdoing good out there today I'm
doing great.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
Awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
I went from homeschooling to here.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
I know it's awesome homeschooling to here, so I know
it makes some crazy transitions.
I was talking earlier tosomebody and I was like man,
there's like 16 things going on,different things going on in
the house right now.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, I was doing homeschool upstairs.
Justin's down here recordingsome videos and like doing a
commercial and it's just thecircus.
We had painters here.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Like everybody showed up at once, amazon guy barking.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
I'm like what is happening right now, but it was
good yeah it was wild.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
So we've had some, some pretty amazing
conversations lately and we'rejust getting fired up.
I feel like yeah um, we've gotsome awesome stuff to talk about
.
Uh, you know, things that Ithink are really important and
foundational.
Um, today's topic is a reallyimportant one, real near and
dear to our hearts, um, and thatis discipleship.

(02:27):
But we're not just talkingabout discipleship in general.
It's going to be a little bitdifferent.
Different because we're goingto we're going to talk about not
just where we get it wrong inthe church, but, um, maybe from
a different angle, not even thatwe're doing discipleship wrong,
but we might be discipling thewrong crowd, for sure, I think

(02:48):
it's both.
But yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
Wrong crowd potentially too.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
We were discussing what we were going to talk about
last night and kind of breakingthat down a little bit and
where we see the biggest needBecause, honestly, our desire
with this podcast is to reallyspeak to people that desire.
They're seeking truth, theydesire authentic discipleship,
like they want to see the realresults and the real
transformation that we read inthe Bible.

(03:14):
And I think kind of exposing afew of these areas where there's
deception can be step one,being able to remove those
things, to slide those thingsout of the way so that we can
actually experience what we'relooking for and that is Jesus
authentically.
We cover him up with a lot ofthings, we add on a lot of
things and in turn we experiencea very watered down version of

(03:37):
Christianity.
For sure I'm trying to think agood story.
Tell me I know a specificinstance, so you'll probably
share this story.
But tell me a specific instancewhere you realized the issue
that we're having withdiscipleship in the church.
I don't know if I know whatstory you're talking about, Like
when you realize that we'rediscipling the wrong crowd.

(03:59):
When did that hit you?
Cause it wasn't always likethat.
Like you, you know the crowdthat comes into church.
Are we discipling Christians?
Are we discipling unbelievers?

Speaker 2 (04:09):
Oh yeah, Okay, it took me a second, I'm like
looking at him like I don't knowwhat you're talking about.
Yeah, are you talking aboutwhen I was in the hospital?
Yeah, okay, yeah.
So I was in the hospital with,you know, a friend who was going
through something super duperhard and I was sleep deprived, I
really hadn't eaten, I don'tthink I had slept.

(04:29):
So I kind of was likeunintentionally fasting because
that person needed me in thatmoment.
So I was kind of putting my ownneeds to the side and like
really trying to serve theirneeds.
And so you would think in thatmoment like lack of sleep, lack
of food, lack of all things,normal.
You know, how do you hear fromGod?
You know so, like clearly, butit was like the clearest moment

(04:51):
in my heart.
She was actually sitting there,you know, getting milk for her
baby, and I look at her and I'mlike I've heard in my spirit
multiple times today, the wolvesare not meant to be invited
among the sheep.
And I'm like I have no idea whatthat means, but I kept hearing
it in my spirit over and overagain and so I remember.

(05:11):
A few hours later that day Ifinally got by myself for a few
minutes and I called you and I'mlike Justin, I don't know what
this means.
Help me like decipher.
Is this God?
I feel like it's the Lord, itsounds like the Lord, but what
does it mean?
Like wolves aren't allowed tobe invited among the sheep.
And you're like Brooke, I wasjust reading in First

(05:31):
Corinthians about this and yousaid, I think what God's trying
to show both of us right now andremind you, justin was like
four hours away, three and ahalf hours away, in a different
city.
I'm in another city, we're notreally talking much because I'm
very busy taking care of her andhe's very busy taking care of
our kids, and we're hearing thesame thing in different ways.

(05:53):
You know you're in thescriptures.
God's given you a revelation.
I'm hearing this prophetic wordlike wolves are not men among
the sheep.
But I have no idea what itmeans and I'm like asking God
throughout the moments.
I could like what does thismean?
And pondering it in my heartand you're like I think this is
what it means.
And when you said it it struckmy heart like this is it?
And I'm like read thatscripture to me again.
And he read it.

(06:14):
Why don't you read what is it?

Speaker 1 (06:17):
1 Corinthians.
I don't have the specificreference.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
It.

Speaker 1 (06:20):
It's, but it's talking about.
You know what happens withinthe might be 16.
It is 16.
You're right.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
It's first Corinthians 16, where it talks
about how you, if he, Paul, wasgiven instructions to the
believer on how to gather andlike how to use your spiritual
gifts and things like that.
And he discusses in that, inthat passage, where if an
unbeliever were to stumble intoyour meeting and when I read
that after Justin had mentionedit to me I'm like stumble in,

(06:51):
Our stinking doors to our churchare busted wide open for anyone
and everybody the unbeliever'sstumbling in.
And it says don't speak intongues, but prophesy so that
his heart may be exposed and hefalls to the ground and repents
and kind of, in layman's terms,you know is what he's saying.
And so what he's saying thereis like it's not, it shouldn't

(07:11):
be normal that unbelievers arein your meetings as of the
church, as believers.
And that was a big.
I just was kind of blown awaybecause at the time we were part
of a mega church and it waslike everybody come yeah.
I think this is something that'sgoing to take the whole episode
to break down, because peopleare even saying right now what
do you mean?
Like we invite people in, likehow could you do that the church

(07:32):
is a hospital for the broken,like all these things?

Speaker 1 (07:34):
We're going to break down that whole mindset and show
you where the problems are withthat, and then we're going to
talk about what specificallyshould be taking place
biblically.
Um, so it's actually in firstCorinthians 14, all 14.
Um, I kind of messed up or Icouldn't remember the exact
chapter, but it's where it.
You know, and I had.
I remember a couple of yearsago I made a reel.

(07:55):
I posted a reel about this,about unbelievers not being
welcomed in the church or in thechurch regularly and people
just that's not what thatscripture is saying and I'm like
listen, I had, it's a 60 secondvideo.
I had 60 seconds to buildcontext to this.
What I was trying to explain is,like this was the scripture
that I read, that kind of likeyou know, set the bell off and

(08:16):
made me think and I'm like well,if, if just think about this,
you know, logically, if Paul issaying you know, if an
unbeliever stumbles in, thenthat would logically mean that
he's he's saying it wasn't anormal occurrence.
Right, that's what I was tryingto explain, and then I started
to look further in thescriptures and see that it

(08:37):
wasn't normal not only for, youknow, unbelievers to gather with
believers in a church setting.
But hello, think about it.
Think about it.
If it's a church gathering,it's a gathering for the church.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
Hello Spirit-filled believers.
This would be like commonknowledge, but man, people put
up a fit Well, I think, becausewe've been presented something
very different and it doesn'tmatch the mold of what we've
seen.
But have we actually looked atScripture and see what scripture
says about it.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah, and so you know , breaking that down a little
bit, we have to realize that wehave gotten all mixed up in, you
know, our gatherings and how wegather and what we do when we
gather, and stuff like that asto where we have combined all
these meetings together.
And so the church gathering,like we've expressed in past
episodes, that's supposed to befor the training and equipping

(09:28):
of the saints, where you cometogether to pray, to minister to
one another to learn.
There's teaching all this stuff.
Um, we've combined that withthe evangelistic meeting which
we see in scripture wassomething where they went out.
Like you know, you said earlier, the wolves weren't meant to be
among the sheep.
Now there is a.
There is a scripture whereJesus says that he sends the
sheep out among the wolves, butthere's never a scripture where

(09:51):
he invites wolves in with thesheep.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
Just like you wouldn't invite a pedophile into
your home with your children,you know, like that's your safe
place, you know so.
So again, I think we've gottenthe meetings confused and we've
kind of blended meetings where,um, there shouldn't be blending,
you know, I think that when theecclesia comes together, that's
the body of Christ comingtogether.
That means spirit filled, bornagain, repentant, baptized, holy

(10:16):
, ghost filled believers rightCome together and they, they um
repent, they uh practice theirgifts, they are, exercise their
gifts to one another, theywelcome the presence of Jesus,
they worship Jesus and all ofthese things.
And there's this equipping ofthe saints that takes place.
It's very sacred and holy whattakes place in a meeting with

(10:39):
believers.
But you do see Jesus drawcrowds but, like you said, it
was key what you just said theywent out to the crowd,
evangelize the crowd, and it wasthe message of the kingdom that
he preached.
It wasn't, you know, teachingsto the believer or breaking down
how to have your best life infive easy ways, like it wasn't

(10:59):
those things.
It was actually a veryconvicting message of, hey, you
cannot do this, you don't dothis, like this, this, all these
things of what the kingdom ofGod is, like the Beatitudes,
pretty much getting down to thenitty gritty of what's in
people's hearts, and it saidmost of them didn't understand,
you know.
And then the wolves or the notready soil walked away and it

(11:22):
says he was left with just the12 and he revealed deeper things
to them.
So that's what the body ofChrist is for, that's what the
ecclesia is, that's what achurch gathering is.
A fellowship gathering is wherebelievers come and they discuss
the depths of scripture so thatthey can actually go out into
the world being refined andwalking in righteousness

(11:45):
themselves and then go and setfree whatever they need.
So then you can go out andactually help others get free.
But a lot of times what we'redoing is we're all wounded in
our own selves as Christians.
Like a hospital we're justwounded, trying to figure it out
, not getting trained andequipped.
And then we're going into theworld bringing in the, the,
literally the bro, the mostbroken people who haven't even

(12:08):
said yes to Christ, and tryingto get them to like, listen to
what the pastor has to say.
But pastor Joe doesn't knowthat.
Jimmy's in there, you know, andwhat Jimmy technically needs to
hear and can God work and givea prophetic word to the pastor.
Absolutely, but it's just notthe best model and the way to do
it and it's kind of like alittle contrary to what the
scriptures promote.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
Sure, sure, cause you've got a, you know, mature
believer, been walking with theLord for 20 years.
You've got the immaturebeliever just just gave their
life to Christ last week.
You've got the non-believerwho's walking in, who's not
interested might be interested,and then the most dangerous is
you have the unbeliever who camein has been there for six

(12:50):
months listening to sermons.
Maybe they raised their handone time, maybe they didn't, but
they think they're born againand now they're actually being
discipled as a believer.

Speaker 2 (13:01):
And they're really not born again.

Speaker 1 (13:02):
So that's where the danger comes in, when you're
like why does it matter?
Why does it matter?
Why does it matter?
Well, because there arecountless, countless, very high
percentage of people that aresitting in those pews, chairs,
whatever, that are beingdiscipled as if they've already
committed and said yes to Christand they've not.
They've not actually repented,and so it's very dangerous,
because that's the person that'sgoing to stand before Jesus and

(13:23):
they'll be like listen, I neverknew you, I never knew you.
And who's responsible for that?
Like you know what I'm saying,that's scary.
It's us who are inviting peopleinto that environment making
them think they're okay.
Without really challengingwhere they're at truly out with
Jesus.
That's what I love, and I thinkthere's the benefit of the
small gatherings where everybodyknows kind of where everybody
is at Like if somebody comes in.

(13:44):
So so, going back to thatscripture, it doesn't say an
unbeliever can't come in.
It's not like if they knockedon your door you'd be like no,
sir, you got to get out.
You know, like that's not whatwe're saying.
We're just saying, if it doeshappen, it's very, very
intentional, Right.
And so, like cause, we've hadplenty of experiences where
people have come in, you know,to the gatherings and they're
non-believers or whatever.

Speaker 2 (14:05):
But or they're on the fence or they're just seeking.
They don't know where they'reat.

Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, and all of that is kind of addressed in there
Like it's super open, like hey,and you know we're not going to
pretend.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
And every believer in the meeting knows that we're
there now to not share all ofour mess and what we're working
through, but like we're reallyintentional with, like meeting
this person in their sin andlike sharing the gospel with
them and that there's hope inChrist and they can be set free
from their sin.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, cause, when he's expressing in that what
takes place in that setting,when, uh, you know, somebody
prophesies or whatever, in thatperson's heart is revealed what
happens to the unbeliever.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
It says they were fall to their knees and repent.

Speaker 1 (14:43):
Right, they realize.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
God is present at that meeting and they repent.

Speaker 1 (14:45):
So what do they do when that person falls on their
knees and repent?
Do they continue to like singworship songs and talk about
your?
Five steps of prayers, no, no,it's like in in that setting,
they're able to actually respondto that person who's repenting,
actually lead them to Christ,and that meaning is now going to
be focused on that, and sothat's what I love about
understanding the setting andwhat's going on and who's there

(15:09):
is because you can actuallyrespond to the spirit in that
way and again.

Speaker 2 (15:13):
What we're not saying , though, is that God can't do
something in a church wherethere are unbelievers and
believers.
You know he can, because he'sGod and he's a miracle worker.
He can work with nothing, youknow, and create something
beautiful out of it.
But what I want people tounderstand is, like you have
people going to church andthey've been going to church

(15:33):
their whole lives and they'venever truly responded to the
gospel.
And now you've got them servingin church, you've got them
working with children, butthey're still dealing with sin
in their lives, and all of asudden, you wonder why.
You know Pastor Joe is cheatingon somebody with somebody in
the church.
Because there was actually awoman there that didn't know

(15:53):
Jesus and was actually there tobe a stumbling block,
potentially, or she didn't evenrealize she is not actually.
I'm that girl.
Like I mean I've never cheatedon anybody with pastor or
anything like that but like Iwould go into church and I would
cause chaos because I thought Iwas a Christian, because I
confessed the name of Christ andI confessed that Jesus died for
me, because I was taughtconfess and believe, confess and

(16:13):
believe, and I'm like, by gollyI'm going to confess and
believe because I'm not going toburn, you know, and then.
But then I'm smoking potupstairs and all the other teen
kids can smell it on me.
They're wondering what's goingon.
I'm a stumbling block for them,like I shouldn't be there.
I'm mocking the pastor as he'sspeaking, you know, and I'm just
like it's just a mess.
You, just you.
That person becomes a stumblingblock for the sheep in the

(16:35):
flock and again I'm guilty.
I'm not preaching from lack ofexperience.
I was that person for manyyears.

Speaker 1 (16:43):
Unfortunately, it's kind of like a.
It's a message of, of hey, thesame thing you would tell your
kids.
Like the same thing we tell ourkids about the mistakes we've
made we've made, we've done it,we've done it like this, and
this is why it doesn't work.
And this is the fruitlessnessthat happens from it.
So let's not do that, like,let's not do that, so.
So now we've got we.
So now we've talked about thesetting of what it's supposed to

(17:04):
look like.
Obviously, there's a gatheringfor the church, and what it's
for.

Speaker 2 (17:09):
There's evangelistic meetings Right.

Speaker 1 (17:11):
There's evangelistic meetings or yet, as we've taught
, we just encourage people tomeet people where they're at.
Like evangelize at McDonald's,Chick-fil-A, whatever we were at
the pool yesterday and I'lltalk to anybody.

Speaker 2 (17:24):
So I'm always like, my ears are always open to like
who's the person of peace, youknow, and sometimes you don't
find one at the pool, but therewas this two people sitting
there and I'm like real quick.
What's a for people that don't?

Speaker 1 (17:36):
understand that concept.
What is that?
It's out of Luke.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
Yeah, I think it's yeah and Luke, and it talks
about like finding.
Jesus gives a command to thedisciples to go into the cities
and kind of practice whatthey've been taught like go into
the cities, begin to tell themthe good news of Christ, that
I've come, I'm here, and I'mhere to set them free of their
sin.
And he says, like, when you gointo a town, find the person of
peace.
He says if you go into a homeand they do not receive your

(17:59):
message, leave the home and goto the home that does.
Yeah, take back your peace, goto the home that does receive
your peace.
And then it says once theyreceive your peace, stay there
with them and teach themeverything I've taught you.
And so that's how we go aboutevangelizing and it's sometimes
it takes time to find a personof peace, and sometimes you may
find a few people of peace atone time, and you're kind of

(18:20):
having multiple meetings withdifferent people and then or
maybe you don't find anybody fora while and you really have to
pray God, bring me to the personof peace, and then you have
this divine encounter.
You know, but I'm a socialbutterfly, so I'll talk to
anybody.
Justin is not that way.
He kind of will sit back andhe's like you catch him, I'll
disciple him.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
More of a caterpillar .

Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, that's right, you're the caterpillar, that's
right.
In the chrysalis, I'm justkidding.
But I'm the social butterfly.
He's an amazing discipler andteacher, but evangelism, one at
a time, and he's a great he canpreach the gospel, but I'm just
walking up to a stranger is notyour show.
No, I get it, yeah, but anyway.
So I'm sitting there and I'mjust kind of like feeling it and

(19:03):
I walk up to him and I justmake a funny joke, at first
about the kids, because my boyswere like splashing around them
and I'm like, oh, I'm a mom offour boys, it's a circus over
here, and that kind of just gotus into a conversation and I
literally get to share my entirestory.
And I just share from thebeginning like hey, you know
that kid over there, you seethat handsome 16 year old.

(19:25):
Like I got pregnant outside ofwedlock on a one night stand and
I had to go find the baby daddyCause I didn't know his name
and all these things.
And they're like what?
And Either they can relate,they're encouraged because
they're not that much of a hotmess, or they're intrigued, you
know.
So they'll ask questions andthen I get to share my story and
then normally, as I'm sharingmy story, I don't spend a ton of

(19:46):
time on it, but I always saylike, hey, is there anything I
can pray for you for?
Like, do you have any sicknessin your body or whatever the
case may be, or is there amiracle that you need to ask
from God?
Because in Corinthians we'vebeen in Corinthians a lot, if
you can't tell, but in 1Corinthians I've been there for
weeks now.
In 1 Corinthians, though, ittalks about how Paul did not
come to the church.

(20:06):
With all these eloquent fancywords.
There's my country coming outFancy words.
It's sad, y'all, when you moveto Texas and people are like
where are you from?
I'm like, is it that?

Speaker 1 (20:19):
bad Dang.
Does it get any more south?
It'll just be in Mexico.
I'm like this is terrible.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
Anyways, fancy, he didn't come with fancy words,
fancy, fancy words and likesuper elaborate words.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
Eloquence.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
Yeah, no eloquence of speech, but he literally came.
He said I came very simply andhe said I spoke few words and I
demonstrated.
So he spoke few words and thenhe demonstrated the power of God
through a miracle sign, wonder,deliverance, healing, whatever
the case may be.
And then he says but when I'mwith mature people, with the
mature believer, I actually wego into the depths and the
secrets of the things of God.

(20:55):
So I'm like, oh wow, like maybewe over talk this thing
sometimes.
So I'll just kind of share mystory so that they can somewhat
find somewhere they can relate.
Yeah, a point of relationshipand connection and that they can
see I'm not this Bible thumperthat's there to condemn them,
that I actually was the worst ofthe sinners in a lot of ways
and that I'm actually there liketo share them, like there's

(21:15):
hope in your mess.
And then I'll be like, hey,after I share my story, like to
share them, like there's hope inyour mess.
And then I'll be like, hey,after I share my story, like
before I leave here, you know,is there anything you need
prayer for?
Like, do you need healing inyour body?
Do you need a miracle?
Does somebody in your familyneed a miracle?
What is it?
And then I'll just pray andsometimes they get healed and
sometimes the miracle sometimesI don't even know like one was
like I really need land.
And I'm like, okay, god, okayGod, like she desires land, like

(21:40):
show her that you're real byanswering this prayer through my
mouth and the testimony Ishared about the true Jesus, and
affirm that you see her rightnow and stuff, and and that just
right there opens up a lot ofpeople.
And then some people can't orlike, can I have your number?
Some people are like andthey're like you're crazy.
And then some people are justlike kind of neutral, you know,
but it always it's never void.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
That's all I do know.
Yeah, totally no, and I thinkum.
I know this is not necessarilyan episode on evangelism
techniques.
But it's so cool and it's soconnected because a lot of
people might say their quest.
Their next question might bewhen you're like, well, if
people don't get, you know, ifyou don't bring unbelievers into
the church, gathering and letyour pastor teach to them?

Speaker 2 (22:20):
or disciple them whatever.

Speaker 1 (22:21):
then what do you do?
And like that's the answer,just let it happen naturally and
organically.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
It doesn't have to.
People are so uncomfortable ifthey are not church people to go
to church yeah, they'reuncomfortable.
It's like growing a baby in apod.
You know what I'm saying.
Like if you walked into a roomwith a bunch of babies in pods,
you're going to be like this isso unnatural, this is so weird.

Speaker 1 (22:46):
Well, I mean, I can personally remember going into
that setting, not as a Christian, and it was the last place.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
I wanted to be, I was very, and again people are
going to be like well, you know,I gave my life to the Lord,
that's how I, and I know, I knowthere are instances and stuff
like that, but but the smallpercentage of people meet Jesus
in those situations Most people,when you listen to their
testimony, either you knowsomething radical happened where

(23:12):
God showed up to them, orsomebody was just loving them
really well at work, or whateverthe case may be.
Most stories are not like.
I got saved at church, you know, or you'll hear the story.
I went to church camp for allmy life and don't know why I
didn't change and then I had aradical encounter with God.
Can things happen there?
Yes, but is it the way Jesusmodeled it?

Speaker 1 (23:30):
That's really what it's about.
You can argue all you want.

Speaker 2 (23:34):
Sorry, I get passionate about this.
You can argue all you wantabout like, oh, it can be done
this way, this way, this way.
But it's like, why modify theway the savior of the world did
it?
Why try to like, put a spin onit?
Just do what he did, becauseyou know what he always blesses

(23:55):
what he did, so you don't haveto go out there spinning your
wheels.
What works, just do what he did.
He made relationship.
He found good soil.
When they showed interest, hesaid follow me.
If they didn't, he was saddened, but he let them walk away and
he prayed for him.
I'm sure you know, but it sayshe intercedes, you know.
So I think that, yeah, that'sthe best way to go about it is

(24:16):
just do what Jesus modeled.
Wwjd.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, Back to that.
Well, I mean he tells you whenyou want to talk about a verse
about discipleship.
I try to make it very simplefor people Like, what is
discipleship?
Discipler is the word itselfjust means a learner.
Right Right In the contextwe're talking about a learner of
Jesus, and so even when we'rediscipling people, we're
teaching them to obey Jesus, andso an unbeliever has to get to

(24:45):
a certain point before theyactually start obeying the
commands of Jesus right, theyneed to enter into a
relationship with him.
They need to repent.
There's things they need to do,but in Matthew 28, 19, which is
the scripture that tells uswhat it's called the great
commission right.
Therefore, go make disciples,and he lays it out for us.
He tells us how he's go.
Therefore, go make disciples,baptizing them that's right and

(25:07):
teaching them to obey everythingthat I've commanded you.
So he lays it out there, soit's not like super difficult,
it doesn't, but here's what wedo.
I think is we the.

Speaker 2 (25:24):
But here's what we do , I think is.
The verse says to us therefore,go make disciples teaching them
.
That's the American version.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
You just stop at teaching, and we don't even
baptize them half the time youknow what I'm saying, like
that's the scripture, if it'sreally quoted by American
Christianity, go make disciples.
Teaching them, teaching them,teaching them what I don't know,
you know, just whatever.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
What's in the Bible but like not true obedience and
application.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
But I want to go back to like, just the part of like
what does the Bible say aboutdiscipleship?
It doesn't say.
It says look up, like look up,the harvest is plentiful, Now go
into the harvest, right.
It doesn't say like, open thebarn door and yell for the
harvest to come in.
It says go out to the harvest,make disciples of the harvest,

(26:10):
harvest them in the harvest.
You cut them down in the fieldand then you bring them in to
the barn.

Speaker 1 (26:18):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:19):
The barn is the church, the field is the lost.
You harvest, we are the church.
In the field, we harvest thegrain, get them collected, bring
them in Someone's got fireworksgoing off right now.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
Oh my goodness, Once you really start to break this
down, you start to realizeyou're like, oh my goodness that
is the model in the Bible.
Like we're actually doing thecomplete opposite.
We've got the barn and we'reopening the doors and we're
saying come in, come on, in comeon in.
And then we look and we're likethey're not coming.
They're not coming.
What do we do?

Speaker 2 (26:49):
Or we start decorating the barn and making
it fancy, and music yes, yeah,and the.
Or they come and you're like,why are they not fruitful?
Well, because you're talking tothem like they know Jesus, you
know, like all of these things,and it just gets real sticky you
know, but the message is alwaysgo.

Speaker 1 (27:08):
The message is always go, you're trained and you're
equipped in the barn.
If you will, it can be aliteral barn.
You know, church can gatheranywhere.
It can be a literal barn,that's right.
You know, a church can gatheranywhere, but that's what the
scriptures say.
And Jesus commands us to goamongst the people, amongst the
wolves, amongst the world.
Preach the message, lead themto Christ wherever they are.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (27:30):
Like Brooke was just sharing in that example.
That's just an example ofyesterday.
This happens all the time,wherever we go, and it's it's
very, it's very simple.
When you just talk to someone,you don't, you don't come at
them and be like hey, do youknow?
you know it doesn't have to belike weird and cold and awkward
that you just start preaching atthem.
But what you realize is whenyou, when you start to obey

(27:53):
Jesus in every area of your lifeand he consumes it all, the
only the only thing I haven'ttalked about is Jesus.
It is but the only thing I needsomeone to say is like oh, what
do?

Speaker 2 (28:04):
you do.
Where are you?

Speaker 1 (28:05):
from?
Where are you from?
What do you do for a?

Speaker 2 (28:06):
living.
Why are you here?

Speaker 1 (28:08):
Because of the fact that we've obeyed Jesus and
moving our family across thecountry.
I can't not talk about him,even if I didn't want to,
because people are like well,why are you in Texas and I'm
like well, here we go, or whatdo?

Speaker 2 (28:23):
you do for a living.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
Well, here you go, any question becomes like an
invitation.

Speaker 2 (28:28):
Why do you homeschool ?
Well, here you go, because mywhole life is centered around
what Jesus has commanded me todo.

Speaker 1 (28:43):
Like, if I would have picked this in my own flesh, I
would not be homeschooling, Iwould not be doing none of that.
I would be some fancy CEOsomewhere, you know.
So every question about everyarea of your life becomes an
invitation to have a gospelcenter conversation, and the
cool thing is is when, when it'sthe person that has has asked
you the question and you'reresponding, they're much more
receptive than if you're justtalking at them.
That's right.
It's like you asked me thequestion.

Speaker 2 (29:03):
I'm like I'm just telling you my story.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
This is why and they're like, oh, okay, and so
you can tell at that pointwhether they're really
interested or not.
But yeah, it's just an easy wayto open up that conversation.
And so then you just, just likeMatthew four says, you plant
the seed.
You plant the seed of thegospel everywhere you go, and
then, next thing you know,you'll start having run-ins with

(29:26):
all of these people.
Where you've planted seeds twomonths, three months, nine
months ago, of a sudden, theharvest starts coming, and it's
not.
The cool thing is is whenyou're putting yourself out
there and you're thinking moreabout evangelism taking, taking
place in the marketplace and notjust in the four walls of the
church building.
Then you're actually, youactually start reaping the fruit

(29:49):
, that of others who haveplanted seeds and sowed before
you.
That's what Paul says you knowsome uh you know some, some
plants, some water, but it's Godwho brings the increase.
And even Jesus says, talkingabout reaping where you've not
sown like he reaps where he'snot sown stuff like that.
So we're ready for thoseopportunities, but I feel like,

(30:09):
in regards to discipleship,maybe most Christians aren't
equipped or confident to knowwhat to do if they run into
those scenarios out in public orin the workplace or wherever.
So it's just easiest to invitethem into a small group to
invite them into our churchgathering and stuff like that
and then let the pastor takeover.
But what happens again ispeople are really uncomfortable

(30:32):
with that, so you get a verysmall percentage of people that
will actually come or say yes,and then our wheels start
turning and we're like all right, well, how do we fix that?

Speaker 2 (30:39):
How do?

Speaker 1 (30:39):
we get more people to say yes to that invitation, as
opposed to thinking aboutserving the person like put
yourself in their shoes.
Well, if they're uncomfortablein that setting, then go to
their setting.
How about, instead of invitingthem to your?
Church service why don't youinvite them over for dinner?
Or, better yet, go to theirhouse and say, hey, let's gather

(31:00):
together, and you'll be amazedhow deep you can go in a two
hour conversation over dinner.

Speaker 2 (31:06):
That people will just sit down and expose their whole
lives.
Yeah, how many times have wehad people come over and like,
within the matter of 30 minutes,they're like weeping, like yeah
, I'm a wreck.
And they tell you their deepest, darkest secrets and then you
can say hey, you know what Jesusdied for.
That Give it to him.
You know, and then they.
I think we baptize more peoplein the past seven years than I

(31:26):
have in my entire life inChristianity because I just
invited them into my home, orthey invited me into their home,
or I invited myself in, likehey, can we talk?
Let's have dinner.

Speaker 1 (31:36):
I remember and this is not a boastful thing by any
means, but I remember two funnystatistics.
We baptized somebody in ourbathtub before we bathed in it.
You remember when?

Speaker 2 (31:46):
we got our house 1,000%.

Speaker 1 (31:48):
And we probably baptized more people in there
than baths have been taken inthe bathtub.
We've gotten in the bathtub,that's right, but it's just so
cool to see.
That was one of the things whenwe started looking for a house.
We're building a housecurrently, but the previous
house that we owned the firstthing we looked in we're like is
there a deep tub?
Like a standalone tub.
We're thinking about what thatthing is for and it's just so

(32:12):
amazing just to see that andknow that that's possible.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
The house we're building.
Now the tub's in the shower forthe splash zone yeah.
Now the tub's in the shower forthe splash zone yeah, Because
they can get a look right nowWe'll talk about.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
In later episodes We'll get into topics of
ministry and deliverance andstuff, but as for right now,
discipleship.
So you know, what's cool isthat's where it starts to
organically kind of morph intothis relationship, where then
discipleship becomes you knowthat possibility Natural To
where you understand, where aperson's at.

(32:40):
You understand if they're justcold to the gospel, if they're
open to the gospel or if they'reresponding in that situation or
scenario, what's next?
Well, what's next is you thenstart to meet with that person
regularly maybe one-on-one orwhatever and kind of walk them
through that process and then,before it's actually there, you

(33:01):
know, go through the born againprocess and are invited into,
like a fellowship or whatever,where they can be.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
We let them bear fruit for a couple minutes.
Sure, you know, like we don'tisolate them from the church, by
no means.
Like, yeah, if they want tostart hanging out with people,
but before we invite them into acommunity of faith, um, we
actually want to make surethey're not like soil one, two
or three.
You know, we actually want tomake sure that they're good soil

(33:27):
or that they're not also justlike deceptive, Cause some
people can respond to the gospelwith wrong motives.
And then you bring them intoyour community and all of a
sudden you're like why isdestruction broke out?
Why is chaos happening?
Why?

Speaker 1 (33:38):
is drama going on?

Speaker 2 (33:39):
You know, it's because they actually weren't
really genuine in their responseto the gospel.
So, like meeting with themone-on-one regularly for a
little while and letting thespirit really show you, like has
this person really allowed theseed of the gospel to go in?
And like, like John the Baptistsaid, like before you come get
baptized like bear fruit worthyof repentance, like let's

(34:00):
actually see that your wordsproduce action in your life.
Because if someone confessesand repents, I don't care how
emotional it gets or how realthey get with you.
Unless there is action afterrepentance, their repentance is
false.

Speaker 1 (34:13):
Oh, for sure.

Speaker 2 (34:14):
So make sure they've truly repented, like test it for
a while.
You know that could be fiveweeks for somebody, it could be
six months for somebody, becauseyou're just not sure, because
they're a little wonky, you know.
But let them.
Let them walk it out for aminute.

Speaker 1 (34:29):
I'm rereading the book right now, organic Church
by Neil Cole, for the fourthtime.

Speaker 2 (34:34):
Love it and I'm pretty sure we bought like 12 of
those and gave them out.

Speaker 1 (34:37):
Yeah, I know, one day I went to read it, I think the
third time I was going to readit and it was gone.
And I'm like how, how, how do Inot have a physical copy of
this book?
I've purchased it so many times.
But there's a spot where hekind of rekindled my uh
understanding or or my memory ona thing that he talked about,
that he said something thatreally hit me, and it was.
He said don't invest inpotential.

(34:58):
And that's a statement whereyou're like what I thought
that's where you're supposed toinvest, he said, because
everybody has potential.
Invest where you see fruitInvest where you see God moving
already and he goes throughexample by example of people
that he poured into and thenthey just were fruitless or were
not responding and he's like,if you continue to invest in it,

(35:20):
it's like it seems harsh butyou're not helping the person.
That is giving you 25 percentand they're not responding and
God's not moving in theirsituation.
Love them.
It doesn't mean you need tolike, reject them, reject them
or anything like that, butthat's not where you pour the
most of your time and that'swhat Jesus did.
Jesus said I only do what I seemy father doing.
So he was very intentionalabout the people that he poured

(35:41):
into, regardless of who wasoffended or who thinks oh,
that's judgmental or that'spicky I mean he gave the offer
to the rich young ruler.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
The rich young ruler comes to him and says I want to
follow you.
And he said, well, sell allyour possessions and give it to
the poor and then follow me.
And it says the rich youngruler couldn't do it because he
had many possessions, you know,and it was too great for him to
let go of.
And he also talks about, youknow, the man who's like, hey,
what about me?
And he's like, hey, come followme.
You know, I don't have anywhereto lay my head.
And the other man's like, hey,let me come follow you.

(36:10):
And he's like well, but I'llcome follow you after my parents
pass away.
And he's like no let the deadbury the dead.
Like come now, because thekingdom of God is now.
You'll miss the boat if youwait for someone else or a
situation to go on.
And Jesus didn't chase afterthem.
He didn't lower the standard.
Oh, oh, oh to the rich andruler just give half, let's talk
about a third Like a desperatesalesman.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
No, he doesn't do that.

Speaker 2 (36:32):
He says he let him go and he was greatly burdened.
Absolutely, that's what I feel,but it's like I'm not going to
put my energy there becausethey're not ripe.
But it doesn't mean God can'tdo it at another time.
So you put your energy whereit's necessary and needed and
people are receiving, and letGod work on that place, and it's

(36:55):
not the last time you might seethat person, or God will bring
someone else into their life.
You know, hopefully that's notalways the case, but hopefully.
So yeah, just finding thereality that it's okay to like
not chase people down and letthem walk away and contemplate.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
I would go a step further and say it's better.
It can be harmful for them.
That's right, it can be harmfulfor them.
I've made that mistake for sure.

Speaker 2 (37:16):
Yeah, yeah, you're, you're really giving yourself,
because you, you want it morethan they want it.

Speaker 1 (37:21):
Yeah, you're enabling them honestly to stay where
they're at Cause you're notletting them realize the reality
of what it's like to not befully committed.
That's right, I have a funnystory.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
So one time Justin and I were in a hospital and we
were evangelizing to a guy andthis dude was in a very sticky
pickle and there was like adeath situation involved.
And he's like just condemninghimself and feeling so bad and
just like it's all my fault.
And I'm over there talking tohim like he's a born again

(37:52):
believer.
But he was not.
And I'm like, oh no, it's OK,don't condemn yourself.
Like blah, blah, blah, blah.
And justin corrects me so ever,subtly but harsh in a good way
he was like do not coddle himright now.
He needs to feel the weight ofhis sin so that he will actually
repent.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
Yeah, and I was like he's right, like I was trying to
, I would have never thought ofthat myself, but the holy spirit
was like gentlest person ever,literally like spoke to my
spirit and said stop her now,stop her now.

Speaker 2 (38:21):
Yeah, and so when I heard him say that it like the
Holy Spirit, was like submit,because he's right.
Like this, man needs to feelthe weight of his sin right now,
because his sin has put someonein a hospital bed.
You know, and I'm like, oh mygosh, it was the hardest thing
to do but it actually, like inthe moment, bore some great
fruit, you know, um so yeahyou're, you're cutting off his

(38:42):
conviction.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
Like the Holy spirit was convicting him.
And you step in I'm saying youand Jeff, but we do this in
general and we step in trying toliterally interrupt the Holy
spirit's conviction, and stopsomeone from genuine repentance
Like that's serious.

Speaker 2 (38:58):
It's kind of like open heart surgery.
Like you know it's hurting.
They just busted opensomebody's chest cavity.
But you come in there andyou're like, oh, let me fix it
sooner than the work's actuallyneeding to be done.
You know, the doctor's like I'mnot finished yet, why are you
sewing it up?
You know, and I was trying tostop the bleeding too quickly
when he actually needed to bleedfor a minute.
You know, um, so that was ahuge learning curve for me and

(39:20):
I'll never forget that day andit has stuck with me the rest of
my days.
But it was a major learningcurve, you know.
Oh for sure.

Speaker 1 (39:28):
So yeah, so true, discipleship is not about just T
.
We talked earlier.
We stopped the verse atteaching.
It's teaching them to obey.
It's about not only being alearner of Jesus, but learning
and actually doing what he says.
And a lot of times that has tohappen in a smaller setting so
we can actually walk with peopleand teach them what it looks

(39:49):
like to obey Jesus.
We can't just teach them withknowledge right.
There's room for that.
People are probably learningstuff.
Well, you're a teacher,knowledge-based stuff, right,
I'm a teacher, I like to teach,but also, uh, I you know it
would be wrong for it to beone-sided and you just teach
people knowledge and notactually walk them through what
it looks like to live an activelife.

(40:09):
I want to run a few scripturesby you on discipleship and just
hear your thoughts.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:13):
And then uh, and then we can, can finish up after
that, but these are somescriptures that describe
discipleship and basicallyqualify disciples when Jesus
qualifies disciples Mark 8, 34.
Whoever wants to be my disciplemust deny themselves, take up
their cross and follow me.
So, in a world that highlypromotes self-interest, how do

(40:34):
we shift our mindset to self?
How do we teach?

Speaker 2 (40:36):
people to shift their mindset promotes self-interest.

Speaker 1 (40:38):
How do we shift our mindset to self?
How do we teach people to shifttheir mindset to self-denial?

Speaker 2 (40:43):
Self-denial yeah, I think that starts with first.
Again, it always goes back torepentance.
You have to repent before youcan deny yourself of anything.
So walk someone throughrepentance, or repent of
yourself if you need to, andthen, after you repent, just
just literally surrendereverything to the Lord and
whatever he asks of you lay itdown and it won't be easy, it's

(41:05):
gonna be hard, but trueself-denial is saying you are
Lord and I say yes before youeven ask.

Speaker 1 (41:12):
This is.
I think that's really good.
I have another scripture, john15, eight.
This is a big one.
It says this is to my Father'sglory that you bear much fruit,
proving yourself to be mydisciple.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
Jesus says if you have no fruit, you're not my
disciple.
You're not my disciple.
Yeah, john 15, the wholechapter is near and dear to my
heart.
If you ever meet me in personand you ask me any question,
I'll say do you know John 15?
Because if you don't, you don'teven know how to walk with
Jesus.
Yet when I first met the Lordand I was born again maybe two

(41:50):
weeks, I hear somebody actuallygave me a book and it was about
John 15.
And in my spirit the Lord saiddo not move past John 15 until
you understand it and you liveit in every aspect of your life.
I'm a brand new baby believer,so I'm like oh, I'm going to
read it twice, I'm going to getit.
16 months later I'm stillreading it and I didn't
understand.
I could not grasp what John 15meant for 16 months.
But one day it was like the veilwas lifted and I could see

(42:12):
clear.
And it hit me that if I don't,and it hit me that if I don't
remain in Christ through obeyinghis commands, I do not stay
abiding in the vine and I willbe cut off and I will be tossed
into the fire to be burned.
And it was like a flash beforemy eyes.
That was my entire life.
I made these professions offaith, but I never remained,

(42:34):
which it says.
If you remain, you will obeywhat I commanded, just as my
father has commanded me to do,and I've obeyed his will and it
wrecked me.
So if you are not willing tofirst repent and then learn how
to abide in the righteousness ofChrist Jesus through the power
of the Holy Spirit, whichentails obedience to the Father,

(42:57):
you're not a disciple of Jesus.
If you don't obey the words ofJesus, you don't know him First.
John three says that veryclearly.

Speaker 1 (43:06):
Yeah, so we're not talking about like perfection as
in you can't make mistakes, butsome people are just flat out
unwilling to obey.
That's right, you know what I'msaying.

Speaker 2 (43:13):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (43:14):
And bear no fruit, and we think that fruitless
Christianity is still.
It's still okay.
Again, it's not about gettingin works and pushing out fruit.
No, that's what John 15 says.
It says connect it to the vine.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
It's the litmus test.

Speaker 1 (43:25):
If you're not bearing fruit.
You just need to check yourconnection.
Yeah, your connection is justoff.
And get your connection backinto that outlet Right you don't
try to force out some fruit.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
If that the little buttons popped out, you know,
and you got to go push it backin so the outlet will get some
juice again.
Like you're going to go do that, so like some people they're
just they're plugged into thewrong outlet so there's no fruit
coming out, you know um orthere's bad yeah.
Or they put the wrong plug in.
You know, um, but there'salways just like recalibrate.
Get connected to the rightsource Christ, the full gospel

(43:55):
and move forward.

Speaker 1 (43:57):
Yeah, I got two more scriptures, Okay.
Second to last one Luke 14, 27,.
Whoever does not carry theircross and follow me cannot be my
disciple.
And my follow-up question wouldbe why do you think carrying
our cross Well, what does itmean and why is it so essential
to be in a disciple?

Speaker 2 (44:15):
I think carrying the crosses um.
What that truly means is you'reliterally taking the shame of
Christ that he walked on theearth and bared to the world.
You're taking up um reputationreputation.
You're taking up humiliation.
It literally says in first Johnuh and and John 15 that you

(44:35):
just quoted.
It says the world will hate youbecause it hated me first.
So when the disciples heardtake up your cross, they didn't
picture like a cross around yourneck as like oh, I'm a
Christian.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
I don't mean to cut you off, but you just said the
word disciple wrong.
But I had a revelation DieCyple.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
Oh, is that how I said it?
Yeah, but like, but like itmade me think like a disciple
must be ready to die.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
That should be a t-shirt like die slash disciple
Hashtag merge I'm just making.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
But I think about John 15, he says that to them
like hey, the world's going tohate you because you're no
longer of the world.
It says because you've beencleansed, so now you're an alien
to this world, and if theydon't receive your message it's
because they didn't receive mymessage.
So when you pick up your crossagain, it's not a chain around
the neck, that doesn't meanyou're a Christian.

Speaker 1 (45:22):
Unfortunately, Not a bumper sticker.

Speaker 2 (45:23):
Right, it actually means you carry your cross.
It's so funny In the earlychurch, the cross was a very
offensive symbol.
They didn't walk around withcrosses in their homes which I
have a cross in our home butthey don't walk around with
crosses in their homes which Ihave a cross in our home but
they don't walk around withcrosses around their necks as
like this thing, like it was a.
It's actually was disgusting tothem because their savior died

(45:43):
a very horrific, the mosthorrific death you could die.
So to them it was like not acool thing, you know, because
they knew what it meant to likeactually carry the cross.
And it really meant like youhave to live the life Jesus
lived, which means there's goingto be persecution, there's
going to be rejection, there'sgoing to be slander, there's
going to be gossip, there evenmay be physical abuse, being put

(46:05):
in jail, being kicked out of acountry, being homeless, being
abandoned, being poor, beingrich.
I mean, I don't know.
It gives so many.
Paul gives so many examples.
He said I've lived with a lot,I've lived with none.
You know all All these examples, you see.
But the main thing is, are youeven willing to lay your life
down for this gospel and we hadto wrestle with that ourselves.
Are you willing to die for this, jesus?

(46:27):
And I'm a very passionatefollower of Jesus and I'm very
bold about my faith and I'vetold the Lord I'm like I better
not go out because I'mjaywalking, getting hit by a car
or in a car accident because Iforget where my seatbelt.
Like I want to go out with apurpose or I want to die at 99
in my bed beside my boo,peacefully.
What are the two, lord?
Like I either want to go outlike fully spent at 99 years old

(46:48):
and I laid my life down and I'mbringing multiple people into
the kingdom, or I want to go outlike bloody, battered and
bruised because I'm likefighting for this gospel.
You know, because we lived incountries where conversion was
illegal, you know, to baptizesomeone and we had to weigh that
option.
Like, are we okay if our kidsget taken from us or we go to

(47:09):
jail or we get, you know, hurtor harmed or lose our lives?
Like I'm cool with that and youkind of have to like really
wrestle through that thing, thatto be a true disciple of Christ
.
Like are you willing to loseyour reputation or even your
life?

Speaker 1 (47:19):
Yeah, yeah, luke mentions that too.
It's called counting the cost.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
Jesus talks about it, and it's not just counting the
cost of in the Western world.
It's kind of hard to say likemany, many Christians will have
to die for their faith.

Speaker 2 (47:30):
Right.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
It still does happen here.
But I'm not one of those peoplethat are like putting Western
Christians down because they're,they're not, they don't have
opportunities to be murdered fortheir faith.
Um, because honestly, like I'vetalked to missionaries who were
like you know, I would rathersomebody hit me in the face with
a rock than slander me behindmy back.
And so a lot of times, the whatChristians in the West will

(47:54):
have to deal with when trulyobeying and following.
Jesus is the slander, the falseaccusations, the religious
coming after you, just like thePharisees did, uh, trying to
destroy you in that way, andsometimes it's I'm not comparing
, you know well, they're justgaslighting you.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
That's what they're doing, yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:10):
It's, it's still, it's still something that you
need to, to pick up your crossfor you.
You need to be willing to loseyour reputation and pick up your
cross for you.

Speaker 2 (48:19):
You need to be willing to lose your reputation,
and that's hard to do, y'all.

Speaker 1 (48:21):
You don't think it's hard until it happens to you.
Well, because it comes from thepeople you least expect.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
That's right.
And it's hard, because Iremember when we lived in Nepal,
which is the country we were in, that is, you're not really
supposed to be converting orbaptizing people.
So we'd like secretly stinkthem into our house and baptize
them in our our bathroom.
Um, but we, when we were there,the Lord told us to come back
to North Carolina, which was ashocker, because we left there
thinking we might not ever comeback to.

Speaker 1 (48:45):
America.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
You know, that's the mindset we left with Um, or we'd
at least be there for many,many, many, many years.
You know was kind of themindset we had.
And after being there six,seven months, we're like the
Lord's, like hey, it's time togo back and I'm like what?
Like I'm just getting started.
We had just baptized, likegenuinely baptized, our first

(49:07):
disciple.
We had discipled a few otherswho had been kind of somebody
else had watered on their groundand like scattered, and we kind
of got to walk with them and uh, and I'm like I don't want to
go, like I don't want to go,like I don't want to go back to
the place where they have achurch on every corner and they
have literally resources attheir fingertips but they don't
use them or obey anything thatthey hear.
Um and the Lord told us heshared with us in a vision he
spoke to me, but I shared itwith Justin like hey, when we go

(49:28):
back, we're going to be likeheavily persecuted.
And I was like I didn't, Ididn't fully like grasp it
because I didn't at the time.
We were missionaries, so we'rekind of applauded for doing the
like, the laying their life down, part Like wow, like this is
really honorable.
But then you come home, back toAmerica, your hometown, and
you're like, by the way, we'reactually going to flip things
upside down and we're going totalk about, like the way we're

(49:50):
doing church is not actuallybiblical Pastors are not
Christians around here need toget saved.

Speaker 1 (49:55):
Yes, yeah, like it's not biblical.

Speaker 2 (49:57):
And hey, we actually are going to confront your
demons, because we've beenslaying some demons, you know,
and we're ready to slay somehere as well and we're going to
talk about your anxiety and yourunforgiveness, and we're going
to talk about those things andactually get to the root of your
problems and your witchcraftthat you're practicing in your
room.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
I feel the next episode coming up, Dem Next
episode coming up demons in thechurch.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
Yeah, that'll get some demons talking through the
comments, but we love you though, anyways.
But yeah, the Lord prepared usfor it.
But I was not prepared, like hetried to prepare me, but in my
pride at the time and I thoughtI kind of knew it all, I was
kind of like a 18 year old inthe faith.
I would say I was a little bitlike zealous still and I just

(50:39):
didn't have maturity.
And when the persecution came,I mean, ask Justin, like it
crippled me for a while, youknow, and I had to get a
backbone and I had to reallysettle my identity and learn how
to forgive quickly and notallow offenses to harm me and to
come against me and really justknow like I'm here to please
Christ and Christ alone.
And my reputation, ourreputation, was destroyed

(51:01):
through the process and so.
But now, like I take suchdelight in knowing that, like I
have walked through that withChrist right by my side, cause,
throughout the whole thing, likewhen I was wrong, I was wrong,
I would have to repent, becausethere was times I wanted to
defend, or I did defend, when Ineeded to stay silent and be
like that's not true.
But I learned a lot.

(51:22):
I had to repent a lot and at thesame time, I now would love to
shake the hands of everypersecutor and be like thank you
so much with the most genuineheart, because I have such a
deep love for them, because Iwould not be where I'm at today
if it wasn't for what I've gonethrough and what I had went
through, and be like, wow, Iappreciate you because God used

(51:43):
you in a mighty way in my life,whether you realize it or not,
and the enemy tried to destroyme through it, but God, he is so
faithful to complete what hehas started.
So that is very real.
And again, like Justin said, Iwould much rather you throw a
rock at my face than talk aboutme behind my back or falsely
accuse me those kinds of things.

(52:04):
So it's hard and it's real.
I'm not going to downplay itand that's our type of
persecution in the Western world.
But if you're not beingpersecuted, I'm curious what are
you actually doing for Christ?
Because if you actually followJesus, it persecution is
promised to you.
That's right, so check.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
If everybody loves you and speaks well of you, if
everybody loves you.

Speaker 2 (52:25):
Quote that that's so good.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
Yeah, he says.
I believe Jesus says that uh,so did they.
You know your forefather, yourforefathers, like the Pharisees
that came before you, like hebasically says that's, that's
the false apostles, the falseprophets.

Speaker 2 (52:39):
That everybody loved and applauded, but they never
really sacrificed anything.
Well, I know we're winding down, but I got one more because I
think it's a really importantone yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:49):
So we'll just speak briefly on that.
So last verse Matthew 10, 37through 39.
This is a hard one.
Anyone who loves their fatheror mother more than me is not
worthy of me or worthy to be mydisciple.

Speaker 2 (53:04):
Wow, I feel like that speaks for itself, like you've
got to be willing to followJesus to the ends of the earth.

Speaker 1 (53:13):
Right.
Why do you think prioritizingour relationship with Christ
over our family like?
How could he say something likethat?
You think prioritizing ourrelationship?

Speaker 2 (53:18):
with Christ over our family.
Like how could he say somethinglike that?
Well, I think because he firstof all like, I think of just a
relationship, of a marriage,like in a marriage it says leave
and cleave, and like if youbecome the bride of Christ, you
have to leave and cleave andJesus has to be your everything.
Like above Justin.
Jesus is my everything.
Um, I love Justin, I want thebest for Justin.

(53:38):
I would never want anything tohappen to you or anything like
that, but Christ is above andforemost, my main priority, and
then I can have a healthyrelationship with you.
And the same with parents Icannot.
Or children it even talks aboutchildren in that scripture.
I think, if you go a little bitfarther, mother, father and
children and land whoever leavesthose things behind.

(54:00):
And it's like I have to tell mychildren too, like I love y'all
with my whole heart and I woulddie for you, just like Christ
died for me, but I will obey him, no matter if it offends you or
not.
You know, like, no matter if itmakes me have to lose a
relationship with you or not,like Christ is above, else,
every single thing.
Um, and it's so hard and peopletalk a big talk, but then when

(54:21):
they're actually asked to like,follow him and maybe leave those
things behind, it's hard, it'shard to watch, but, um, the ones
that actually do it, no matterif it's hard, the reward is so
much greater.

Speaker 1 (54:31):
Yeah, and you realize , he knows, he knows he knows
it's not like you know.
It's like he's like yeah, youmust love me more than you love
them.
But we also have to realize heloves them, yes, and so whatever
he's calling us to obey orcalling us to do is going to be
the best scenario for thatperson.
Even if there's distance orwhatever it looks like in our
logic and our understanding,it's like he's got them in mind.
That's right, and so we justhave to realize the most

(54:52):
fruitful place to be is in hiswill and obeying him and he's
going to cause those situationsto work out.
A lot of times we think like I,you know we don't say it, but I
can do it better if I would justdo it this way and we just
submit.

Speaker 2 (55:07):
I know, for us like just to end on this is you know,
when we went overseas like itfelt like the worst time
possible for our family dynamic.
My mom had just gotten likefilled with the Holy Spirit for
the first time and like didn'tknow really how to walk with the
Lord.
Your family wasn't born again.
You had a sister and a brotherthat were wayward, and a mother
who was wayward and agrandmother that was wayward and

(55:27):
all those things, and we kindof had to actually put some
boundaries up and be like, hey,we really love you, but like we
can't be in the toxicity and weactually have to go save ones
that are actually hungry becausewe've tried to share and you've
rejected me.
So we're actually going to dustour feet, like the Bible says,
and we're going to go to theharvest, where the harvest is
desperate, and we moved toanother country, begin to preach
the gospel.

(55:47):
Then God said come back.
And after we came back, likeall of them are born again.
Now it actually worked.
We gave them to God, we left,we let God work on them and then
, when the time was right, theywere in our homes repenting,
giving their lives to Jesus.
They all got baptized, two inour bathtub Well, yeah, two in

(56:08):
our bathtub and one at yourgrandma's bathtub and one in her
hot tub, you know, and one inher other hot tub.
So, like you know.
The next thing, you know,you're baptizing these people
that you actually really had tohand over to to their sin for a
minute, but they did come backand repent eventually.
So it's just, the Bible worksif you obey it.
Oh yeah, that's the bottom line.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
It does, and that's the.
That's the.
That's all we wanted to getdown to is like what does
scripture?
Say let's forget about allthese, these traditions and
these things that we built up,kind of tear down those false
beliefs and the deception andbanging our heads against the
same wall because things aren'tworking, trying to make a broken
system work and be like well,what did Jesus do?
Let's not try to improve toomuch on his methods.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
Well, he just said go make disciples and I will build
my church.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
We do it backwards.

Speaker 2 (56:53):
We build the church and not make disciples.

Speaker 1 (56:55):
Don't just teach them .
Teach them to.
And we wonder why the church isso funky and so yeah, so this
has been an awesome time.
It was a great conversation.
Hopefully this has beenfruitful for you listening and
that you have learned somethingreally helpful and you can go
apply it.
Appreciate your time and we areso excited I got some ideas for

(57:16):
the next episodes.

Speaker 2 (57:17):
So fun.
I'm excited too.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
Yeah, thanks.