February 11, 2025 • 39 mins
So many people have been wounded by the institutional church, and it’s not just by accident—the system itself is often set up in a way that leads to hurt. In this episode, we dive deep into the reality of church hurt, why it happens so often in the American church, and how to heal without walking away from faith altogether. We share our personal journeys, the hard questions we had to wrestle with, and the steps we took to rebuild a faith that wasn’t tied to broken systems. If you’ve been disappointed, burned, or even traumatized by church, this conversation is for you. Let’s talk about what’s next.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's not that people are intentionally meaning to
hurt, but the system is set upto hurt, Just like when you have
children coming out of anorphanage like they feel unseen,
unhurt.
They're living and they'resurviving, but they're not
thriving.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And so the pressure's off and so you can actually to
start the process of healing andthen entering into not just
healing and stabilizing andgrowing would be acknowledging
it.
So do you think we should justpretend it never happened?
Acknowledging it?
So do you think we should justpretend it never happened?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
or is it okay to actually acknowledge somebody
did something?
I think what's healthy is toactually like recognize, maybe
even too, that you put your hopein a person and not in Christ,
and recognize that those peopleare people and they're not Jesus
, and those people are called to.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Bitterness is like poison to the soul.
Have you ever felt that?
Trying to like creep in?
What was that like and how didyou combat that?
Speaker 1 (00:45):
It starts with the hurt.
You get hurt by somebody andthen, instead of giving the
anger and forgiving quickly, youbegin to mull over what the
person says.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Welcome to the ReChurch podcast.
If you're tired of business asusual, Christianity I'm laughing
because my wife's staring at me, kind of funny and you're ready
to live like Jesus?
I don't know if I said thattwice or not, but you found
yourself in the right place.
So I'm here with PrincessBrooke.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Princess, how are you doing, not a princess.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
You're not or am.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I Don't deny it, don't deny it.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
You treat me like one , so I guess I am.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Lordthinks of you that way.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Oh, that's true.
He actually gave me a vision ofthat once.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Yeah, we're supposed to see people like Jesus Just
prophesying.
Yeah, awesome.
Well, thanks for being with ustoday.
We have a really good topictoday, and that is we're going
to talk about church hurt.
We're going to talk about it ina little bit of a different
context than it may have beentalked about in other videos.
(01:51):
You have seen A lot of peopletalk about it in general, just
being hurt by the religiousinstitution, whatever you want
to call it, but then thosepeople either go rogue or they
turn atheist, or they just nevergo back.
Right, yeah, we're going totalk about in the sense of
people that have come out of theinstitution have either been
(02:11):
hurt in the sense of somebodyactually, you know, did
something wrong to them or thejust the hurt from feeling
deceived, because when your eyesare open to the truth of what's
actually in the scripturesabout church, you can feel like
why was I lied to?
And so this person, though, isnot turning away from the faith,
they're not turning into anatheist, they're not doing
(02:32):
nothing, they're actuallypursuing Jesus, even though
they've stepped out of theinstitution of church, and
they're feeling hurt or allowingmaybe a little bit of
bitterness to creep in and uh,and that's the temptation to
almost move forward in a in arebellious way, and we don't
want that either, but we've seenthat it's a temptation for
those who have come out of theinstitution.
So we're going to talk aboutthat.
(02:53):
We're talking about a couple ofdifferent things, and we're
talking about, uh, basicallywhat to do.
Uh, and you know, byacknowledging it, um, we're
gonna talk about the dangers of,if you don't handle it properly
, like what can happen, andwe're going to talk about that
pathway to healing and growth.
Okay, so number one, the firstthing I want to talk about and,
(03:16):
brooke, you may not be able tospeak to this from a personal
perspective because everybody'sgot different exits from the
church system.
Some people were hurt, somepeople just had a bad experience
, stuff like that.
But I know at least you'vetalked to a lot of people and
worked through and discipled alot of people who have been hurt
, and that's the reason theyleft.
And the reason I know that thishas happened to a lot of people
(03:36):
is because it's the label thatwe get the most when people hear
us preach our message is they?
Immediately say, oh, they'rejust church hurt and they're
rebellious.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
And I'm like well, no , I'm not, or you must've been a
part of a bad church or had abad experience.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah sure, it's just how they, how they want to frame
the situation, and it's notalways true, but what have you
seen?
What are some of the, some ofthe ways or some of the reasons
people have left the church orwhat they experienced, like how
are they hurt?
Speaker 1 (04:08):
I have so many examples, yeah, Um, some of the
hurts can be.
I'll just give some, some shortscenarios of different hurts,
cause it might hit differentpeople.
Um, some of the hurts are theyfeel betrayed because, uh, the
pastor didn't give them theattention they wanted.
Or maybe they gave the pastorsome information and the pastor
(04:32):
misused the information.
One recently I heard was thepastors sent a couple off to do
like a church plant somewhere, asatellite church plant and just
sent them off and never checkedin on them, shepherded them
through it, took care of themand then, when the church plant
(04:53):
failed, they came back to themother church, I guess, and
nobody checked in on them orasked them how it went.
It almost was like it didn'thappen because it failed.
So they felt unseen, you know.
So I think when you set achurch up as an orphanage,
you're doomed to hurt people.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Because you, as one leader, cannot give attention to
more than 20 people at a time,so the structure is set up to
fail.
To harm you.
Yeah, so I think it's moreappropriate to say the church
hurt comes from the system notbeing set up properly to where
(05:34):
people can actually have theirneeds met and their hearts met
and ministry done to them.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I think too this is just coming to me as you're
speaking, because it's not thatpeople have too high of an
expectation.
That's right, it's.
It's marketed to you to havethat expectation, that's right.
Do you know what I'm?
Speaker 1 (05:52):
saying, and I think that's what sets it up for a
letdown is.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
It's like come to our church, we're going to give you
everything you need, we'regoing to pamper you, we're here
for you, Join this group youneed.
We're going to pamper you,we're here for you, join this
group.
We've got 20 pastors on staffto do all this.
And you're almost walking intoit like wow, they've got my back
, like I'm going to did this andget that, and then you realize
that's not what it's.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
It's not possible.
It's not possible.
It's not possible in the waythat the institutional church is
set up, you know, becauseyou're set up to depend on one,
two, three, five people but theydon't have the capacity.
Um, I heard Neil recently say,like you can only really have
120 friends.
You could walk up to theirdinner table and sit down
without being invited.
(06:35):
You know, past that, likeyou're maxed out and we've got
churches at 500 to 10,000 to20,000 people capacity.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
I thought this is a total side effect but the other
day I was thinking about that,the moment that you went up and
sat down at a stranger's table.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Except for me.
But it was to like share yourface.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
It was different, except for Brooke.
I'm like.
You are literally the exceptionto that rule.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
You sent a picture to some friends of me of ours, of
a picture of her lasagna.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I know I'm like only Brooke would get offered a bite
of someone's lasagna.
She just met 30 seconds ago.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Yeah, anyway, the general rule.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
I do believe I'm a rare breed.
You can only have deeprelationships with that many
people.
If that, I think honestly as anintrovert, well, I think what
his.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
His point was is like 120 people.
You feel comfortable withsitting at the table if you walk
into a restaurant uninvited totheir table, but like that
doesn't mean you're doing deeplife with them.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
You got 120 best friends.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
No, no, no, no, Unless you're me Again.
No, I'm just kidding.
I have a friend.
She's like how many bestfriends do you have?
I'm like I have a lot of bestfriends, Like I love a lot of
people.
They think I'm their bestfriend, but they're my best
friend to me, you know.
So, anyways, but I think thatit's not that people are
intentionally meaning to hurt,but the system is set up to hurt
(07:53):
.
You know, just like when youhave children coming out of an
orphanage, like they feel unseen, unheard.
They're living and they'resurviving, but they're not
thriving.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
That's a good example .
Yeah, so yes.
If you're entering into asystem like that, you almost
have to lower your expectationbecause you're not going to get
that.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
And the thing is not only that they're not meeting
the expectation, it's not as ifGod sets that expectation and
they're not meeting it.
He doesn't even expect that hedoesn't expect you to meet that
expectation.
That's why the system is flawed, it's wrong.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
That's not what the biblical prescription is, and so
a lot of people.
But if we actually did likeNeil said on the podcast that
was just posted, we're supposedto one another, each other.
The institutional system is notset up to one another, if that
makes sense.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (08:48):
No, it's not, and I think honestly the the the one
of the greatest things I'veexperienced is coming out of the
institution is that I've, I've,I don't feel the pressure to to
do something that wasimpossible from the beginning.
Right, it's like, oh okay,really, I'm just called to to
(09:09):
preach the gospel and to makedisciples and to obey the Holy
spirit, as he calls me to obey.
I don't need to like shepherd athousand people.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
I don't need to.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
You know, do all these, these things, do these
ministry things, and so thepressure's off and so you can
actually enjoy it.
Um, it's, it's very tough oncethings become like a job, right,
right, you just look at themdifferently.
And so with that ministry, themore I got involved in quote,
unquote ministry, the more itfelt like a job.
(09:40):
And then I started to to havethis discrepancy inside of me
because I really wasn't, Ididn't like it anymore.
But then I felt bad admittingthat, because I thought it was
what we had to do as Christians.
And so the battle inside of mewas like what's wrong with me?
Why do I feel bad doingsomething that God has called me
(10:01):
to do?
And the more I pursue it, themore I feel burnt out and worn
out on it.
And some of you may not feelthat way.
That's great, but I did, andI'm sure there are other people
that feel that way, and for me,coming out of that and removing
all of the, the business aspect,the job aspect of it, brought
life back into it.
The organic way of doing thingslike really relation, relational
(10:23):
and again we go back to this,this example, all the time like
a family.
A family can become like workas well If you try to
over-structure it and make itinto a business or a job, but
when relationships organicallyflow, it's so fun.
You know what I'm saying?
It's not that there's nothardships, but it's like can you
imagine if you got invited toyour?
(10:45):
Your best friend invited youout for coffee but it.
But when you got there they laidout like a nine point structure
of the conversation, right?
Or if you know, every week youmet together, you met for 45
minutes and the first 15 minuteswas that and the first game.
It's like you would eventuallyyou'd be like this feels like
work, or she.
Or say your, your best friend,had the questions already listed
(11:08):
out.
Like, and read through thequestions, it it would be like,
yeah, you would just, you wouldjust lose that excitement.
So, going back to you know thatsystem is set up to fail, going
back to the person that's comeout and has experienced the hurt
, I think the very first thingto do to start the process of
healing and then entering intonot just healing and stabilizing
but growing, would beacknowledging it.
(11:29):
So do you think we should justpretend it never happened, or is
it okay to actually acknowledgesomebody did something wrong?
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, stuffing is like a really good concoction
for a blow up later on in lifeyou know what I mean.
Like you'll just stuff, stuff,stuff until you snap Maybe not
blow up, but a snapping point.
But no, I think what's healthyis to actually like recognize
that there's been hurt,recognize maybe even too, that
(11:57):
you put your hope in a personand not in Christ.
You know and recognize thatthose people are people and
they're not Jesus, and recognizethat those people are people
and they're not Jesus.
You know, and those people arecalled to walk alongside of you,
but not just they're not yoursavior, they're not your rescuer
and giving them grace becausethey're learning and they also
have stuff they've got to fixand deal with in their lives.
(12:17):
You know, just because somebodyis ministering doesn't mean
they're perfect and it alsodoesn't mean they don't have
stuff that they're workingthrough as well.
Maybe they're just fartheralong so they can work through
it quicker and faster, you know,than maybe you can, because
it's your first time reallydealing with something in a
healthy way.
So I think, taking offexpectations that only Jesus can
(12:40):
meet on people and puttingthose on him because he never
fails, and and taking off thoseexpectations of people who are
not Jesus, who are human, whowill fail you and just be, and
just be real with the hurt and,honestly, if you have the
ability to have a healthyconversation with them, talk to
them about it.
Some people you can't havehealthy conversations with
(13:02):
because they don't do that well,but if they are able to be
talked through, talk through it.
Don't ignore it, work throughit the best you can and then
move forward.
Yeah, move forward.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
I think one thing that I've learned is that a lot
of our inner turmoil comes fromtrying to control exterior
things, comes from trying tocontrol exterior things, and
when we do that, we're typicallyneglecting the internal things
that we can control Right, andso we're spending all our
(13:36):
efforts trying to externallychange the people around us when
we can't Right, and then we'reso focused on that that we don't
actually deal with thingsinside, and that's where
bitterness begins to creep in so.
I think for people, startingwith the acknowledgement is the
best place to start, not forthem, but for you for yourself
like just being truthful with itand admitting like, yeah, what
they did was wrong, and here'swhat it did to me and here's the
(13:58):
result of that, and here's howI feel about that.
But you don't stay there rightIf you stay there.
That's where you get stuck.
That's right, and you begin tolet those people control you.
So now, not only have thosepeople hurt you, but now they're
continuing to have space inyour brain and control you as
(14:19):
time goes on.
Even though they have no idea,they're still doing that.
So it's almost like the poisonthat just keeps on poisoning you
, and that's why it's soimportant to recognize and
handle these things.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Quickly, correctly, quickly and correctly, yeah,
because I think the Bible sayslike don't go to sleep with like
anger you know in your heart.
And I think that because itsays it tells you the result of
if you go to sleep with anger inyour heart, the result is the
enemy gets a foothold in yourlife and if you continue to go
to sleep night after night afternight with this anger in your
heart, the foothold goes from afoothold to a leg hold, to a
(14:55):
half body hold to a full bodyhold.
You know, like the enemy justyeah, right up in your life and
the enemy begins to wreak havoc.
So, like you know, dealing withyour anger before you go to bed
on a situation that is mayberightfully so, like you have the
right to be angry, but God says, deal with it before you go to
bed.
So it shows you it can be dealtwith quickly, in the sense of
(15:19):
you can let go of the anger andthen, as you've let go of the
anger, you can actually dealwith the hurt and get healed
from it in a healthy way wherethe enemy doesn't have a
foothold.
If God says, do this, it meansit's possible.
But I think so many of us comefrom such bad hurts, traumas,
childhoods a lot of us noteverybody, but many that we
don't even know how to give upour anger quickly or deal with
(15:41):
it before we go to bed at night.
You know, and that's somethingwe're learning and we've had to
learn but I know for me thatjust sitting before the Lord and
saying, lord, like I'm givingyou my purest heart in this
situation, whether you handledit right or not, you know,
forgive my role if I have doneanything, but I also just
(16:02):
forgive this person and I don'thold anything against them, and
then that gives you time to healproperly without the enemy's
foot all up in it.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, for sure, I think, Sure, I think you know,
like what you were saying,recognizing it and recognizing
it also, that there are peoplein the Bible that experience
this.
Also, jesus experienced this,and so there's nothing wrong
with you feeling a certain wayor, you know, responding a
(16:32):
certain way.
It's just if we, if actually goback, there is a problem with
you responding a certain way.
It's just if we actually goback, there is a problem with
you responding a certain way.
So we look at Jesus' example ofhow he responded.
Because he had betrayal and herecognized it.
He told people that Judasbetrayed him.
Like he even told Judas, beforehe would betray him, that he
would betray him Right.
So he recognized the truth ofthe situation and what was
happening.
But there was a specific waythat he responded, and not in
(16:58):
every response, and this is thething people don't understand.
Did he chase everyone down andtry to make the relationship
perfect, right?
How many Pharisees stabbed himin the back or spoke against him
or tried to sabotage his entireministry?
Same thing with Paul.
Like Paul got to the end of hislife and he's like I've got
like one guy.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
I got like one guy, he got like one guy stuck around
, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
And he recognized that he's like all have turned
away from me.
Right, he had people.
He would go in and spend daysor months with people and then
turn around and people wouldcome back and behind him and
sabotage his work.
So if anybody had a right to bebitter, it was Paul or Jesus who
were put to death literallywhile they all they were trying
to do was good.
But they recognized that.
(17:38):
I think they recognized thatthey could not change those
people right.
It was those people'sresponsibility to have their
hearts turn from their ways andrepent towards God.
But what they did do iscontinually stay in relationship
with God to make sure thattheir hearts were responding the
right way.
And I think that's where weneed to begin to deal with these
things.
(17:58):
And that doesn't mean tocontinuously put yourself in the
path of getting trampled oneither.
That's where a lot of peopleget mistaken.
They're like, you know.
You just need to get back inthe situation and tie up your
boots and stand there and takeit and it's like, no, like you
don't put yourself in thepathway of that, but you're also
keeping yourself in check withthe Lord.
(18:20):
And I like this scripture Psalm34, 18.
It says the Lord is near to thebrokenhearted and saves the
crushed in spirit.
So even you would look at Davidin the Psalms and think if he
wasn't truthful with the Lordand didn't admit where he was,
could he experience that samenearness of the Lord?
And didn't admit where he was,could he experience that same
nearness of the Lord whocomforted him in his brokenness.
(18:40):
So ignoring it also blocks outthe Lord from actually being
able to meet you in that brokenplace.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yeah, that's what I was about to say.
I think we feel like Godexpects us to have it all
together.
I know I've been guilty of that.
I can't take this to the Lord.
I should be past this, but itwasn't until I got really real
with Him that he could actuallyheal what I was dealing with and
, honestly, it's just a form ofpride.
You've got to get throughknowing that God doesn't expect
(19:08):
you to have it all together, butwhat he does expect you to do
is cast all your burdens uponthe Lord, and so don't keep
those burdens.
Actually give them to Him andmaybe find one safe person in
the body of Christ or two thatare healthy and are going to
push you towards Christ that youcan process it with.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Yeah, for sure.
So tell me about this, becauseif we don't do that, what
happens?
You said it earlier thefoothold turns into a kneehold
to a neckhold whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
I just pictured the enemy like toe, knee, side, body
, full body.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
That's where bitterness begins to creep in,
and I wanted to say Hebrews 12,15 was a scripture that I had on
that.
But bitterness is like poisonto the soul.
Have you ever felt that tryingto like creep in?
(20:07):
What was that like and how didyou combat that?
100%?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
No, I've let bitterness take root and I had
to get free from it and repentfrom it.
You know, but bitterness startswith.
It starts with the hurt.
You know you get hurt bysomebody and then, instead of
giving the anger and forgivingquickly, you begin to mull over
what the person says, like whatyou were talking about earlier,
(20:32):
giving them space in their mindand your mind, and they don't
even know they have space.
They don't even know they'repaying rent in your mind.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
You know what I'm saying they ain't paying rent.
That's the problem.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
That's the problem and they're living in your mind,
you know.
So I think when you begin tomull over things and not process
it with the Lord because inyour mind you're justifying
yourself to the person, that'syour first sign of bitterness is
taking root, instead of takingit to the Lord in prayer Like
(21:02):
you have to take it to the Lordin prayer, but I've been guilty
of that Like something happensand then it gets in your mind.
You will over what they saidand then you mull over what they
said and then all of a suddenyou're defending yourself in
your own mind and boom,bitterness is there and it
doesn't have to grow into amassive tree.
You know, just begin to noticethe seeds and the roots of
bitterness and pluck it outquickly before it becomes a tree
(21:23):
.
But let's say it is a big, fattree in your life you need
deliverance.
If it's grown into a tree, youneed freedom.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah, because that door has stayed open, where that
foothold has become astronghold that's right
stronghold has created a house,house in your mind, for the
enemy for the demonic to live in, and so a lot of people don't.
And that's that's a really goodpoint that you mentioned,
because a lot of these thingsstart off as small things that
you can.
It's kind of like if you pulleda very small sapling out of the
(21:51):
ground so easy, but you go tryto yank a redwood out of the
yeah, think about your.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
GMC trying to get that tree out of one of those
yards.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
You did peel it out, yeah yeah, it just doesn't work.
And so there there could be apoint where you reach where you
you've allowed the demonic toenter in and to gain a space and
you need the supernatural powerand authority of the Lord to
actually free you from that.
I was thinking about bitterness.
What bitterness does is is it'salmost like if you can picture
(22:22):
you, you know, holding pain inyour heart and your heart being
porous, as in like that pain can, can get, it has a way out.
The Bible calls it callous, acalloused heart.
So as you allow that bitternessto creep in, it almost
calcifies your heart to where itcreates a wall.
That does two things Number one, it traps that pain inside and
(22:45):
number two, it keeps the Lordout from being able to work in
and heal that place.
So I think another aspect ofthat of overcoming that is also
to because, as you were sayingthat a lot of scriptures came
into your mind, right, soactually going over the
scriptures and seeing what thescripture says about how to deal
with those things and how wedeal with burdens and how we
(23:06):
confess things to the Lord, likethere's a reason, like those
are actually commands to obey,because that's how the Lord
wants us to process throughthese things.
Yes, we need people.
Yes, it's good to have peoplearound you, community around you
, to help you, but there is ascriptural command of what to do
with these thoughts very earlyon, so that they don't take them
captive take that place.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
That's what I was saying in the beginning, like
you, you have to take thethoughts captive, because the
thoughts is what turns intoseeds of bitterness.
So I've always looked at takingthoughts captive, because the
thoughts is what turns intoseeds of bitterness.
So I've always looked at takingthoughts captive as like a
baseball game the thought, thebad thought, is that line drive
down the center of the field toyour mind.
And when I mean, I had one thismorning at the gym.
(23:47):
To be honest with you, I hadthis weird random thought that
came into my mind and I'm likeew, I rebuke that in Jesus' name
.
You know it doesn't mean thethought's going to come into the
mind.
And then it's what do you dowith the thought?
And you either cast it down oryou take it as your own right.
And if you take ungodly thoughtscaptive, they will produce
(24:10):
something in you, whether that'ssin, lust, anger, bitterness,
whatever it's been sent to do.
You know so.
And in the beginning it'sexhausting, feeling like you
have to take every thoughtcaptive.
You're like literally everysingle thought, and it literally
says every thought captive.
But as you begin to practicethis it gets a little bit easier
.
You know so, once you analyzethe thought and you realize it's
(24:34):
not from God, then boom, throwthat thing out Like no, I rebuke
that, that is not of the Lord,and cast it down.
And you might have to do it afew times before it actually is
removed from your thoughtprocess.
But the longer you think on it,the harder it is to cast it
down.
The faster you cast it down,the easier it is to remove it.
The thought pattern.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
I think about the repetition of thought and the
amount of focus that you put on.
It reminds me of water andfertilizing a plant.
It's almost like if you had apatch of weeds outside and you
fertilize the weeds.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
That's not good.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
They don't even need help growing and you're pouring
Miracle-Gro on them.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Yeah, you're going to have a bunch of bamboo.
Isn't that funny, though how?
Speaker 2 (25:14):
like what you want to grow out there, takes so much
care, and then it'll like if youdon't pay attention to it.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
it'll die, it just dies.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
But yet how many people are out there planting
weeds?
Speaker 1 (25:22):
But they grow without you asking.
You don't have to do nothingand you'll kill them.
And they still come back.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
I remember one day I went out to my lawnmower and
there was like a weed growingout of the deck, the platform,
I'm like.
A little bit of dirt got in oneof the pedals and was sitting
there on the deck and a weedsprout out.
I'm like how in the world ithad like this much soil?
But it's wild.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
But I think that's like.
The key, though, is likepulling the root, the seeds, out
before they can grow into trees.
You know, people are like youknow, how did I get here?
And I'm like, wow, you havetaken years to just think and
mold, cause, like we deal with alot of people who, like, come
for prayer or need assistanceand things, and when they tell
stories that happened 30 yearsago, they tell it like it
(26:10):
happened yesterday.
You want to know why?
Cause they've thought aboutthat thing every single day for
30 years, you know, and it's ona rat wheel in their mind.
And that's, man, where you canget really sick in your heart.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
So yeah, and I do want to emphasize it's not like
we haven't gone through thesethings too.
It's like it's just you, oryeah, yeah, this is something
that is has been a battle for usas well.
Things that pop up, but youwant to deal with them when they
do.
I think of biblically.
This story popped in my head,the story of Joseph as a prime
example, Like his own familyturned against him, betrayed him
(26:44):
Like his own brothers put himin a pit and like think about
how he chose to respond to thatsituation.
Think about, if he would havechose to respond with bitterness
, how that story would haveplayed out, he definitely
wouldn't have become secondhandto the Pharaoh.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
You don't have the capacity to do that or the
energy, because bitterness sucksthe life out of you.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
You know?
So, yeah, that would have beena very different outcome.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
It doesn't.
I don't think it necessarilyshows us the process of what he
did, like the heart work that hedid through that, but it does
show the fruit of it, and thatwas even when he was placed in a
position where of power overhis brother's situation.
Like not that he was, I guessin that situation.
It was over his his brothersgovernmentally.
(27:31):
But he didn't.
He did play with them a littlebit.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Well, what I think I don't cause.
I knew that was going to comeinto play, like I don't even
think he was playing with them.
I think he was testing to seeif their character had changed
and you should like if, if atraumatizer comes back into your
life.
You need to ask some hardquestions to see and test their
hearts to see if they'veactually changed, because the
enemy can bring them right backin or people or people that are
(27:57):
like them.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
So ask hard questions to see if there's actually
change Almost like you ain'tgonna fool me twice.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
No, you're not gonna yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
I ain't going into a second hole, that's right.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
That's right.
You ain't telling me twice.
No, you're not going to.
Yeah, I'm going into a secondhole, that's right.
That's right, you ain't tellingme twice.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah, but it's cool to see those, those stories in
the Bible and see how God treatsthose people who have overcome
those trials.
And I think partly.
Yes, it's God blessed.
God's blessing falls on theirlife.
But two they through thatcircumstance, just like we
talked about in the last episode.
They build the characterthrough persevering through that
trial and that hardship, eventhough it came at the hands of
(28:29):
other people.
They develop the character thatcan actually carry the weight
good weight of what God hasplaced in their life the
blessing he's placed on theirlife.
Same thing with Job.
That's so good.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
I think one thing to add too is like if you realize
right now that there'sbitterness in your heart or
you've had church hurt Becauseagain a lot of people want to be
like, because we're so hardagainst the institutional church
and the traditions that nullifythe Word of God, I want you to
understand we're not upset withthe people, we're upset with the
traditions that have beenresurrected, but the people are
(29:05):
the ones giving the traditionspower, so we got to really speak
to that.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
But if tradition is not going to change no tradition
is an inanimate object.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
That's right.
That's right.
The people have to change andgive, take away the power to the
tradition.
So I think if you find yourselfin a place where you're like,
wow, maybe I do have bitternessin my heart, like, what do I
need to do to begin to deal withthe bitterness in my heart?
And at first is as simple asjust making the choice to
forgive.
Forgiveness is a choice.
(29:35):
It's not a feeling or anemotion.
It's just like waking up tobrush your teeth, like I'm going
to be real in the morning.
Sometimes that's not the firstthing I want to do when I wake
up to brush my teeth, but I knowthe result of brushing my teeth
is good for me.
I'm not going to have bloodygums, I'm not going to have
cavities All the things.
Gingivitis will stay away frommy mouth.
So I do it because I know theresult is good for me.
And it's the same withforgiveness.
(29:56):
I choose forgiveness because Iknow the result is good for me.
So, making the choice to forgive, it starts with the choice and
eventually your emotions willline up with your decision to
forgive the person, and theemotional part might take time.
You might not feel butterfliesand rainbows for the person
who's traumatized you or hurtyou or harmed you, but
(30:17):
eventually you're not going tofeel like you could vomit every
time you think about them.
You're actually going to beable to pray for them with a
pure heart.
If you ran into them, you couldactually love them well.
It doesn't mean you have to betheir best friend again or do
life with them or put yourselfin the same position to be hurt
again, but you can actually havegood motive and intention
towards them and when you thinkabout them you don't, you know,
go through the same trauma theyput you through 20 years ago.
(30:40):
So just choosing to forgivebecause, and again putting in
the position of Christ like weall nailed him on the cross by
committing sins.
You know, um, but he stillchose to forgive us anyways, um.
So if he can do that, we haveto tap into that source, into
Jesus's ability to forgive uswho nailed him to a cross.
And when you tap into thatplace, you can see people very
(31:03):
differently and forgivenessbecomes easier.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Yeah, what do you think?
What about situations wheremaybe people aren't directly
involved say that they left thetraditional church system or
they're not like super close toa family member?
Whoever you're hurt by?
We're talking about church hurtin this episode but what about,
like, the person that keeps?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
bringing on the stuff .
Speaker 2 (31:25):
So maybe you don't even go to that church anymore,
but they're continuouslyspeaking poorly about you and
trampling your name.
How do you work through thatand not letting bitterness root
in when it's a constant cycle?
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Yeah, you bless them in prayer and to the ability
that you can you protectyourself from the trauma and the
hurt.
I know this sounds crazy, butif you need to block them from
your social media so you can'tsee the subliminal messages,
that gets your heart in thewrong place.
Like, let's say, you just cameout of your prayer calls and
(31:57):
you're like, lord, bless you,know Sally Jo and bless her life
or heart.
How we'd be naming peoplerandom.
This is what I do.
Jess is always like Brooke stop.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Or Sally Jo.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Bless Sally, jo, bless her socks off, and then
you get on Facebook or Instagramor a text message or whatever,
and that person's once againhurting you the same way.
You just had to forgive them.
It's okay to remove thatconstant dagger in your life.
You can block that person soyou can't see it.
And it's not because you'resaying, hey, I hate you, I don't
(32:33):
like you, I'm blocking you frommy social media.
No, I have forgiven youmultiple times already and so I
can stay in forgiveness and inpure heart towards you.
I have to remove you so that Ican actually love you well.
So sometimes it looks likesetting some boundaries, um, in
your own life, and it might evenbe boundaries they don't have
to know about.
Sometimes it's boundaries thathave to be made very clear to
(32:54):
the person, just depending onthe situation.
But set those boundaries andthen continue to move forward,
sometimes removing the constantvisual of the trauma, or say you
can't, say it's a family memberyou know, or a church you know,
a person in your church thatyou can't run away from.
(33:15):
You just have to begin to lovethem, pray for them and set
boundaries with those people.
And it looks different foreveryone.
So and then stick to theboundary that you've set.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Yeah, I've seen too.
I remember when I first sawthis in scripture and I've read
over it plenty of times, but itnever hit me until we were going
through a situation ofpersecution.
But Jesus didn't always saystay in the midst of your
persecution.
I've heard a lot of people tobe like oh, I'm just toughing it
out because I just feel likeI've just got to stick with this
person or I've got to see themthrough.
(33:48):
And Jesus actually told hisdisciples when you're persecuted
in one town go to the next andthat was helpful for us also,
seeing at one point we're likeall right, there comes a point
to where your message is notbeing received.
And the Lord is like.
I'm going to take you where itwill be received.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
That's right.
I don't know, I guess, for totake you where it will be
received.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
That's right, you know.
So I don't know.
I guess for people that keepthat in mind as well, like you,
don't always have to quote,unquote, stick it out, uh,
further than the Lord is callingyou to, because there could be
people that are ready to receiveuh, his message somewhere else
and see the fruit of that, hismessage somewhere else and see
(34:29):
the fruit of that.
So, yeah, so I know this was ashort and sweet episode, but I
really hope it was helpful forthose of you who have gone
through some hurt.
There's so many differentsituations that it could be.
I mean, we didn't even talkabout people that have been
abused in the church.
That's like a whole other topic.
I don't even know if YouTubewould let us talk about it, but
uh it.
It's just we're realizing, likethe, the system that's created
(34:56):
that puts people in power is theproblem.
And that's why we speak outagainst it.
And again, we love the peopleand that is the reason that we
speak out against a particularsystem that puts people in power
.
That's not to say that you justby doing quote-unquote organic
church or just by meeting in ahome or something like that,
that you're going to completelyavoid any type of hurt or
(35:17):
situations where people can harmyou.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
It's going to happen, it's inevitable.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yeah, and we've been in situations outside of the
institutional church wherepeople have done things against
us, persecuted us, slandered ourname.
So it doesn't matter what fourwalls you're in, it doesn't
matter if you're in a home, acoffee shop, someone cuss you
out in a coffee shop or your car, it doesn't matter if you're
having church in your vehicle,on a bus, like it can still
happen, and so that's why it'sso important to recognize these
(35:42):
things Now.
We're not going tointentionally erect systems that
facilitate that and make iteasier for that person or that
narcissistic person or thatperson that craves power to be
in.
So that's what we're talkingabout, is that let's not make it
easy for them but, let's notalso think that you're immune to
it because you're in adifferent form of church if that
(36:03):
makes sense.
So you just have to be aware ofthat in every situation.
So again, I hope this washelpful and we'll help you guys
kind of navigate through that.
We talked about uh oneacknowledging it, which also
includes walking throughforgiveness.
That process is not alwaysquick and sometimes many times,
if not all times, it is aprocess of forgiveness, where
(36:25):
you have to repeatedly forgivesomeone every single day.
That's not for them.
Like Brooke said, it's a, it'san action, it's a decision.
It's a decision, it's not afeeling.
So we make our decisions basedon truth, we are actions based
on truth, and we allow ouremotions, or we tell our
emotions, to get in line withthe back of the train and they
(36:46):
will follow.
So, acknowledging that, beingaware of the enemy's strongholds
, his footholds, not allowinghim to gain access into our life
through things like bitternessand resentment, that's the
second thing, and anger, yeah,yeah that we talked about, and
then just practical ways ofrenewing our mind to understand
how to actually walk that outthrough knowing what the
(37:06):
scriptures say about how to moveforward.
Because, like this episode istitled, like when that comes in,
we don't just want to get backto a place of homeostasis and
neutrality, we want to actuallygrow and thrive.
So we want to take what theenemy just like Joseph says,
(37:26):
what the enemy meant for harm.
We want to actually turn thatinto something that actually
builds our character, grows us,not only grows us and grows our
character, but allows us to helpothers through that.
That's really how you get backat the enemy, or get back at the
person is by allowing thesituation to actually create in
you more Christlike characterand therefore help more people
(37:50):
through that situation.
Right.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
I think the world that's a really good point the
world tells you just to get backto that homeostasis place like
that neutral place, thatstress-free place for you so you
can be good.
But Jesus says you get right soyou can go rescue others.
You know.
So you're right.
Yeah, start rescuing peoplethat are also in traumas that
(38:14):
you've experienced and you'veovercome and actually became
whole and healthy.
And you'll know that you'rewhole and healthy.
The fruit will speak, you know,and if it's not good fruit
that's coming off your tree, dosome heart work and it always
starts I'm just saying it alwaysstarts with anger.
If you're angry about something, it's going to turn into
bitterness.
So deal with the anger.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Yeah, that's so good.
And so many people.
Last thing I'll say is so manypeople get stuck in that place
and they never actually end upbearing fruit.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
So they're busy fighting against the thing that
they were hurt by so much thatthey actually can never produce
something, produce a fruitfuloutcome for people, and that's
ultimately the direction thatyou want to go.
You don't want just want to bealways reacting and responding
to the thing that hurts you.
You want to actually be part ofthe solution.
You know what I'm saying, so Ihope this was helpful.
I appreciate you guys hangingout with us today and we will
see you in the next episode.
Bye.
It's not that people are intentionally meaning to
hurt, but the system is set upto hurt, Just like when you have
children coming out of anorphanage like they feel unseen,
unhurt.
They're living and they'resurviving, but they're not
thriving.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And so the pressure's off and so you can actually to
start the process of healing andthen entering into not just
healing and stabilizing andgrowing would be acknowledging
it.
So do you think we should justpretend it never happened?
Acknowledging it?
So do you think we should justpretend it never happened?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
or is it okay to actually acknowledge somebody
did something?
I think what's healthy is toactually like recognize, maybe
even too, that you put your hopein a person and not in Christ,
and recognize that those peopleare people and they're not Jesus
, and those people are called to.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Bitterness is like poison to the soul.
Have you ever felt that?
Trying to like creep in?
What was that like and how didyou combat that?
Speaker 1 (00:45):
It starts with the hurt.
You get hurt by somebody andthen, instead of giving the
anger and forgiving quickly, youbegin to mull over what the
person says.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Welcome to the ReChurch podcast.
If you're tired of business asusual, Christianity I'm laughing
because my wife's staring at me, kind of funny and you're ready
to live like Jesus?
I don't know if I said thattwice or not, but you found
yourself in the right place.
So I'm here with PrincessBrooke.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Princess, how are you doing, not a princess.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
You're not or am.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I Don't deny it, don't deny it.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
You treat me like one , so I guess I am.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Lordthinks of you that way.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Oh, that's true.
He actually gave me a vision ofthat once.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Yeah, we're supposed to see people like Jesus Just
prophesying.
Yeah, awesome.
Well, thanks for being with ustoday.
We have a really good topictoday, and that is we're going
to talk about church hurt.
We're going to talk about it ina little bit of a different
context than it may have beentalked about in other videos.
(01:51):
You have seen A lot of peopletalk about it in general, just
being hurt by the religiousinstitution, whatever you want
to call it, but then thosepeople either go rogue or they
turn atheist, or they just nevergo back.
Right, yeah, we're going totalk about in the sense of
people that have come out of theinstitution have either been
(02:11):
hurt in the sense of somebodyactually, you know, did
something wrong to them or thejust the hurt from feeling
deceived, because when your eyesare open to the truth of what's
actually in the scripturesabout church, you can feel like
why was I lied to?
And so this person, though, isnot turning away from the faith,
they're not turning into anatheist, they're not doing
(02:32):
nothing, they're actuallypursuing Jesus, even though
they've stepped out of theinstitution of church, and
they're feeling hurt or allowingmaybe a little bit of
bitterness to creep in and uh,and that's the temptation to
almost move forward in a in arebellious way, and we don't
want that either, but we've seenthat it's a temptation for
those who have come out of theinstitution.
So we're going to talk aboutthat.
(02:53):
We're talking about a couple ofdifferent things, and we're
talking about, uh, basicallywhat to do.
Uh, and you know, byacknowledging it, um, we're
gonna talk about the dangers of,if you don't handle it properly
, like what can happen, andwe're going to talk about that
pathway to healing and growth.
Okay, so number one, the firstthing I want to talk about and,
(03:16):
brooke, you may not be able tospeak to this from a personal
perspective because everybody'sgot different exits from the
church system.
Some people were hurt, somepeople just had a bad experience
, stuff like that.
But I know at least you'vetalked to a lot of people and
worked through and discipled alot of people who have been hurt
, and that's the reason theyleft.
And the reason I know that thishas happened to a lot of people
(03:36):
is because it's the label thatwe get the most when people hear
us preach our message is they?
Immediately say, oh, they'rejust church hurt and they're
rebellious.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
And I'm like well, no , I'm not, or you must've been a
part of a bad church or had abad experience.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah sure, it's just how they, how they want to frame
the situation, and it's notalways true, but what have you
seen?
What are some of the, some ofthe ways or some of the reasons
people have left the church orwhat they experienced, like how
are they hurt?
Speaker 1 (04:08):
I have so many examples, yeah, Um, some of the
hurts can be.
I'll just give some, some shortscenarios of different hurts,
cause it might hit differentpeople.
Um, some of the hurts are theyfeel betrayed because, uh, the
pastor didn't give them theattention they wanted.
Or maybe they gave the pastorsome information and the pastor
(04:32):
misused the information.
One recently I heard was thepastors sent a couple off to do
like a church plant somewhere, asatellite church plant and just
sent them off and never checkedin on them, shepherded them
through it, took care of themand then, when the church plant
(04:53):
failed, they came back to themother church, I guess, and
nobody checked in on them orasked them how it went.
It almost was like it didn'thappen because it failed.
So they felt unseen, you know.
So I think when you set achurch up as an orphanage,
you're doomed to hurt people.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Because you, as one leader, cannot give attention to
more than 20 people at a time,so the structure is set up to
fail.
To harm you.
Yeah, so I think it's moreappropriate to say the church
hurt comes from the system notbeing set up properly to where
(05:34):
people can actually have theirneeds met and their hearts met
and ministry done to them.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I think too this is just coming to me as you're
speaking, because it's not thatpeople have too high of an
expectation.
That's right, it's.
It's marketed to you to havethat expectation, that's right.
Do you know what I'm?
Speaker 1 (05:52):
saying, and I think that's what sets it up for a
letdown is.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
It's like come to our church, we're going to give you
everything you need, we'regoing to pamper you, we're here
for you, Join this group youneed.
We're going to pamper you,we're here for you, join this
group.
We've got 20 pastors on staffto do all this.
And you're almost walking intoit like wow, they've got my back
, like I'm going to did this andget that, and then you realize
that's not what it's.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
It's not possible.
It's not possible.
It's not possible in the waythat the institutional church is
set up, you know, becauseyou're set up to depend on one,
two, three, five people but theydon't have the capacity.
Um, I heard Neil recently say,like you can only really have
120 friends.
You could walk up to theirdinner table and sit down
without being invited.
(06:35):
You know, past that, likeyou're maxed out and we've got
churches at 500 to 10,000 to20,000 people capacity.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
I thought this is a total side effect but the other
day I was thinking about that,the moment that you went up and
sat down at a stranger's table.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Except for me.
But it was to like share yourface.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
It was different, except for Brooke.
I'm like.
You are literally the exceptionto that rule.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
You sent a picture to some friends of me of ours, of
a picture of her lasagna.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I know I'm like only Brooke would get offered a bite
of someone's lasagna.
She just met 30 seconds ago.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Yeah, anyway, the general rule.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
I do believe I'm a rare breed.
You can only have deeprelationships with that many
people.
If that, I think honestly as anintrovert, well, I think what
his.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
His point was is like 120 people.
You feel comfortable withsitting at the table if you walk
into a restaurant uninvited totheir table, but like that
doesn't mean you're doing deeplife with them.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
You got 120 best friends.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
No, no, no, no, Unless you're me Again.
No, I'm just kidding.
I have a friend.
She's like how many bestfriends do you have?
I'm like I have a lot of bestfriends, Like I love a lot of
people.
They think I'm their bestfriend, but they're my best
friend to me, you know.
So, anyways, but I think thatit's not that people are
intentionally meaning to hurt,but the system is set up to hurt
(07:53):
.
You know, just like when youhave children coming out of an
orphanage, like they feel unseen, unheard.
They're living and they'resurviving, but they're not
thriving.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
That's a good example .
Yeah, so yes.
If you're entering into asystem like that, you almost
have to lower your expectationbecause you're not going to get
that.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
And the thing is not only that they're not meeting
the expectation, it's not as ifGod sets that expectation and
they're not meeting it.
He doesn't even expect that hedoesn't expect you to meet that
expectation.
That's why the system is flawed, it's wrong.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
That's not what the biblical prescription is, and so
a lot of people.
But if we actually did likeNeil said on the podcast that
was just posted, we're supposedto one another, each other.
The institutional system is notset up to one another, if that
makes sense.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (08:48):
No, it's not, and I think honestly the the the one
of the greatest things I'veexperienced is coming out of the
institution is that I've, I've,I don't feel the pressure to to
do something that wasimpossible from the beginning.
Right, it's like, oh okay,really, I'm just called to to
(09:09):
preach the gospel and to makedisciples and to obey the Holy
spirit, as he calls me to obey.
I don't need to like shepherd athousand people.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
I don't need to.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
You know, do all these, these things, do these
ministry things, and so thepressure's off and so you can
actually enjoy it.
Um, it's, it's very tough oncethings become like a job, right,
right, you just look at themdifferently.
And so with that ministry, themore I got involved in quote,
unquote ministry, the more itfelt like a job.
(09:40):
And then I started to to havethis discrepancy inside of me
because I really wasn't, Ididn't like it anymore.
But then I felt bad admittingthat, because I thought it was
what we had to do as Christians.
And so the battle inside of mewas like what's wrong with me?
Why do I feel bad doingsomething that God has called me
(10:01):
to do?
And the more I pursue it, themore I feel burnt out and worn
out on it.
And some of you may not feelthat way.
That's great, but I did, andI'm sure there are other people
that feel that way, and for me,coming out of that and removing
all of the, the business aspect,the job aspect of it, brought
life back into it.
The organic way of doing thingslike really relation, relational
(10:23):
and again we go back to this,this example, all the time like
a family.
A family can become like workas well If you try to
over-structure it and make itinto a business or a job, but
when relationships organicallyflow, it's so fun.
You know what I'm saying?
It's not that there's nothardships, but it's like can you
imagine if you got invited toyour?
(10:45):
Your best friend invited youout for coffee but it.
But when you got there they laidout like a nine point structure
of the conversation, right?
Or if you know, every week youmet together, you met for 45
minutes and the first 15 minuteswas that and the first game.
It's like you would eventuallyyou'd be like this feels like
work, or she.
Or say your, your best friend,had the questions already listed
(11:08):
out.
Like, and read through thequestions, it it would be like,
yeah, you would just, you wouldjust lose that excitement.
So, going back to you know thatsystem is set up to fail, going
back to the person that's comeout and has experienced the hurt
, I think the very first thingto do to start the process of
healing and then entering intonot just healing and stabilizing
but growing, would beacknowledging it.
(11:29):
So do you think we should justpretend it never happened, or is
it okay to actually acknowledgesomebody did something wrong?
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, stuffing is like a really good concoction
for a blow up later on in lifeyou know what I mean.
Like you'll just stuff, stuff,stuff until you snap Maybe not
blow up, but a snapping point.
But no, I think what's healthyis to actually like recognize
that there's been hurt,recognize maybe even too, that
(11:57):
you put your hope in a personand not in Christ.
You know and recognize thatthose people are people and
they're not Jesus, and recognizethat those people are people
and they're not Jesus.
You know, and those people arecalled to walk alongside of you,
but not just they're not yoursavior, they're not your rescuer
and giving them grace becausethey're learning and they also
have stuff they've got to fixand deal with in their lives.
(12:17):
You know, just because somebodyis ministering doesn't mean
they're perfect and it alsodoesn't mean they don't have
stuff that they're workingthrough as well.
Maybe they're just fartheralong so they can work through
it quicker and faster, you know,than maybe you can, because
it's your first time reallydealing with something in a
healthy way.
So I think, taking offexpectations that only Jesus can
(12:40):
meet on people and puttingthose on him because he never
fails, and and taking off thoseexpectations of people who are
not Jesus, who are human, whowill fail you and just be, and
just be real with the hurt and,honestly, if you have the
ability to have a healthyconversation with them, talk to
them about it.
Some people you can't havehealthy conversations with
(13:02):
because they don't do that well,but if they are able to be
talked through, talk through it.
Don't ignore it, work throughit the best you can and then
move forward.
Yeah, move forward.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
I think one thing that I've learned is that a lot
of our inner turmoil comes fromtrying to control exterior
things, comes from trying tocontrol exterior things, and
when we do that, we're typicallyneglecting the internal things
that we can control Right, andso we're spending all our
(13:36):
efforts trying to externallychange the people around us when
we can't Right, and then we'reso focused on that that we don't
actually deal with thingsinside, and that's where
bitterness begins to creep in so.
I think for people, startingwith the acknowledgement is the
best place to start, not forthem, but for you for yourself
like just being truthful with itand admitting like, yeah, what
they did was wrong, and here'swhat it did to me and here's the
(13:58):
result of that, and here's howI feel about that.
But you don't stay there rightIf you stay there.
That's where you get stuck.
That's right, and you begin tolet those people control you.
So now, not only have thosepeople hurt you, but now they're
continuing to have space inyour brain and control you as
(14:19):
time goes on.
Even though they have no idea,they're still doing that.
So it's almost like the poisonthat just keeps on poisoning you
, and that's why it's soimportant to recognize and
handle these things.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Quickly, correctly, quickly and correctly, yeah,
because I think the Bible sayslike don't go to sleep with like
anger you know in your heart.
And I think that because itsays it tells you the result of
if you go to sleep with anger inyour heart, the result is the
enemy gets a foothold in yourlife and if you continue to go
to sleep night after night afternight with this anger in your
heart, the foothold goes from afoothold to a leg hold, to a
(14:55):
half body hold to a full bodyhold.
You know, like the enemy justyeah, right up in your life and
the enemy begins to wreak havoc.
So, like you know, dealing withyour anger before you go to bed
on a situation that is mayberightfully so, like you have the
right to be angry, but God says, deal with it before you go to
bed.
So it shows you it can be dealtwith quickly, in the sense of
(15:19):
you can let go of the anger andthen, as you've let go of the
anger, you can actually dealwith the hurt and get healed
from it in a healthy way wherethe enemy doesn't have a
foothold.
If God says, do this, it meansit's possible.
But I think so many of us comefrom such bad hurts, traumas,
childhoods a lot of us noteverybody, but many that we
don't even know how to give upour anger quickly or deal with
(15:41):
it before we go to bed at night.
You know, and that's somethingwe're learning and we've had to
learn but I know for me thatjust sitting before the Lord and
saying, lord, like I'm givingyou my purest heart in this
situation, whether you handledit right or not, you know,
forgive my role if I have doneanything, but I also just
(16:02):
forgive this person and I don'thold anything against them, and
then that gives you time to healproperly without the enemy's
foot all up in it.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, for sure, I think, Sure, I think you know,
like what you were saying,recognizing it and recognizing
it also, that there are peoplein the Bible that experience
this.
Also, jesus experienced this,and so there's nothing wrong
with you feeling a certain wayor, you know, responding a
(16:32):
certain way.
It's just if we, if actually goback, there is a problem with
you responding a certain way.
It's just if we actually goback, there is a problem with
you responding a certain way.
So we look at Jesus' example ofhow he responded.
Because he had betrayal and herecognized it.
He told people that Judasbetrayed him.
Like he even told Judas, beforehe would betray him, that he
would betray him Right.
So he recognized the truth ofthe situation and what was
happening.
But there was a specific waythat he responded, and not in
(16:58):
every response, and this is thething people don't understand.
Did he chase everyone down andtry to make the relationship
perfect, right?
How many Pharisees stabbed himin the back or spoke against him
or tried to sabotage his entireministry?
Same thing with Paul.
Like Paul got to the end of hislife and he's like I've got
like one guy.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
I got like one guy, he got like one guy stuck around
, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
And he recognized that he's like all have turned
away from me.
Right, he had people.
He would go in and spend daysor months with people and then
turn around and people wouldcome back and behind him and
sabotage his work.
So if anybody had a right to bebitter, it was Paul or Jesus who
were put to death literallywhile they all they were trying
to do was good.
But they recognized that.
(17:38):
I think they recognized thatthey could not change those
people right.
It was those people'sresponsibility to have their
hearts turn from their ways andrepent towards God.
But what they did do iscontinually stay in relationship
with God to make sure thattheir hearts were responding the
right way.
And I think that's where weneed to begin to deal with these
things.
(17:58):
And that doesn't mean tocontinuously put yourself in the
path of getting trampled oneither.
That's where a lot of peopleget mistaken.
They're like, you know.
You just need to get back inthe situation and tie up your
boots and stand there and takeit and it's like, no, like you
don't put yourself in thepathway of that, but you're also
keeping yourself in check withthe Lord.
(18:20):
And I like this scripture Psalm34, 18.
It says the Lord is near to thebrokenhearted and saves the
crushed in spirit.
So even you would look at Davidin the Psalms and think if he
wasn't truthful with the Lordand didn't admit where he was,
could he experience that samenearness of the Lord?
And didn't admit where he was,could he experience that same
nearness of the Lord whocomforted him in his brokenness.
(18:40):
So ignoring it also blocks outthe Lord from actually being
able to meet you in that brokenplace.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yeah, that's what I was about to say.
I think we feel like Godexpects us to have it all
together.
I know I've been guilty of that.
I can't take this to the Lord.
I should be past this, but itwasn't until I got really real
with Him that he could actuallyheal what I was dealing with and
, honestly, it's just a form ofpride.
You've got to get throughknowing that God doesn't expect
(19:08):
you to have it all together, butwhat he does expect you to do
is cast all your burdens uponthe Lord, and so don't keep
those burdens.
Actually give them to Him andmaybe find one safe person in
the body of Christ or two thatare healthy and are going to
push you towards Christ that youcan process it with.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Yeah, for sure.
So tell me about this, becauseif we don't do that, what
happens?
You said it earlier thefoothold turns into a kneehold
to a neckhold whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
I just pictured the enemy like toe, knee, side, body
, full body.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
That's where bitterness begins to creep in,
and I wanted to say Hebrews 12,15 was a scripture that I had on
that.
But bitterness is like poisonto the soul.
Have you ever felt that tryingto like creep in?
(20:07):
What was that like and how didyou combat that?
100%?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
No, I've let bitterness take root and I had
to get free from it and repentfrom it.
You know, but bitterness startswith.
It starts with the hurt.
You know you get hurt bysomebody and then, instead of
giving the anger and forgivingquickly, you begin to mull over
what the person says, like whatyou were talking about earlier,
(20:32):
giving them space in their mindand your mind, and they don't
even know they have space.
They don't even know they'repaying rent in your mind.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
You know what I'm saying they ain't paying rent.
That's the problem.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
That's the problem and they're living in your mind,
you know.
So I think when you begin tomull over things and not process
it with the Lord because inyour mind you're justifying
yourself to the person, that'syour first sign of bitterness is
taking root, instead of takingit to the Lord in prayer Like
(21:02):
you have to take it to the Lordin prayer, but I've been guilty
of that Like something happensand then it gets in your mind.
You will over what they saidand then you mull over what they
said and then all of a suddenyou're defending yourself in
your own mind and boom,bitterness is there and it
doesn't have to grow into amassive tree.
You know, just begin to noticethe seeds and the roots of
bitterness and pluck it outquickly before it becomes a tree
(21:23):
.
But let's say it is a big, fattree in your life you need
deliverance.
If it's grown into a tree, youneed freedom.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah, because that door has stayed open, where that
foothold has become astronghold that's right
stronghold has created a house,house in your mind, for the
enemy for the demonic to live in, and so a lot of people don't.
And that's that's a really goodpoint that you mentioned,
because a lot of these thingsstart off as small things that
you can.
It's kind of like if you pulleda very small sapling out of the
(21:51):
ground so easy, but you go tryto yank a redwood out of the
yeah, think about your.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
GMC trying to get that tree out of one of those
yards.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
You did peel it out, yeah yeah, it just doesn't work.
And so there there could be apoint where you reach where you
you've allowed the demonic toenter in and to gain a space and
you need the supernatural powerand authority of the Lord to
actually free you from that.
I was thinking about bitterness.
What bitterness does is is it'salmost like if you can picture
(22:22):
you, you know, holding pain inyour heart and your heart being
porous, as in like that pain can, can get, it has a way out.
The Bible calls it callous, acalloused heart.
So as you allow that bitternessto creep in, it almost
calcifies your heart to where itcreates a wall.
That does two things Number one, it traps that pain inside and
(22:45):
number two, it keeps the Lordout from being able to work in
and heal that place.
So I think another aspect ofthat of overcoming that is also
to because, as you were sayingthat a lot of scriptures came
into your mind, right, soactually going over the
scriptures and seeing what thescripture says about how to deal
with those things and how wedeal with burdens and how we
(23:06):
confess things to the Lord, likethere's a reason, like those
are actually commands to obey,because that's how the Lord
wants us to process throughthese things.
Yes, we need people.
Yes, it's good to have peoplearound you, community around you
, to help you, but there is ascriptural command of what to do
with these thoughts very earlyon, so that they don't take them
captive take that place.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
That's what I was saying in the beginning, like
you, you have to take thethoughts captive, because the
thoughts is what turns intoseeds of bitterness.
So I've always looked at takingthoughts captive, because the
thoughts is what turns intoseeds of bitterness.
So I've always looked at takingthoughts captive as like a
baseball game the thought, thebad thought, is that line drive
down the center of the field toyour mind.
And when I mean, I had one thismorning at the gym.
(23:47):
To be honest with you, I hadthis weird random thought that
came into my mind and I'm likeew, I rebuke that in Jesus' name
.
You know it doesn't mean thethought's going to come into the
mind.
And then it's what do you dowith the thought?
And you either cast it down oryou take it as your own right.
And if you take ungodly thoughtscaptive, they will produce
(24:10):
something in you, whether that'ssin, lust, anger, bitterness,
whatever it's been sent to do.
You know so.
And in the beginning it'sexhausting, feeling like you
have to take every thoughtcaptive.
You're like literally everysingle thought, and it literally
says every thought captive.
But as you begin to practicethis it gets a little bit easier
.
You know so, once you analyzethe thought and you realize it's
(24:34):
not from God, then boom, throwthat thing out Like no, I rebuke
that, that is not of the Lord,and cast it down.
And you might have to do it afew times before it actually is
removed from your thoughtprocess.
But the longer you think on it,the harder it is to cast it
down.
The faster you cast it down,the easier it is to remove it.
The thought pattern.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
I think about the repetition of thought and the
amount of focus that you put on.
It reminds me of water andfertilizing a plant.
It's almost like if you had apatch of weeds outside and you
fertilize the weeds.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
That's not good.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
They don't even need help growing and you're pouring
Miracle-Gro on them.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Yeah, you're going to have a bunch of bamboo.
Isn't that funny, though how?
Speaker 2 (25:14):
like what you want to grow out there, takes so much
care, and then it'll like if youdon't pay attention to it.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
it'll die, it just dies.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
But yet how many people are out there planting
weeds?
Speaker 1 (25:22):
But they grow without you asking.
You don't have to do nothingand you'll kill them.
And they still come back.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
I remember one day I went out to my lawnmower and
there was like a weed growingout of the deck, the platform,
I'm like.
A little bit of dirt got in oneof the pedals and was sitting
there on the deck and a weedsprout out.
I'm like how in the world ithad like this much soil?
But it's wild.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
But I think that's like.
The key, though, is likepulling the root, the seeds, out
before they can grow into trees.
You know, people are like youknow, how did I get here?
And I'm like, wow, you havetaken years to just think and
mold, cause, like we deal with alot of people who, like, come
for prayer or need assistanceand things, and when they tell
stories that happened 30 yearsago, they tell it like it
(26:10):
happened yesterday.
You want to know why?
Cause they've thought aboutthat thing every single day for
30 years, you know, and it's ona rat wheel in their mind.
And that's, man, where you canget really sick in your heart.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
So yeah, and I do want to emphasize it's not like
we haven't gone through thesethings too.
It's like it's just you, oryeah, yeah, this is something
that is has been a battle for usas well.
Things that pop up, but youwant to deal with them when they
do.
I think of biblically.
This story popped in my head,the story of Joseph as a prime
example, Like his own familyturned against him, betrayed him
(26:44):
Like his own brothers put himin a pit and like think about
how he chose to respond to thatsituation.
Think about, if he would havechose to respond with bitterness
, how that story would haveplayed out, he definitely
wouldn't have become secondhandto the Pharaoh.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
You don't have the capacity to do that or the
energy, because bitterness sucksthe life out of you.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
You know?
So, yeah, that would have beena very different outcome.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
It doesn't.
I don't think it necessarilyshows us the process of what he
did, like the heart work that hedid through that, but it does
show the fruit of it, and thatwas even when he was placed in a
position where of power overhis brother's situation.
Like not that he was, I guessin that situation.
It was over his his brothersgovernmentally.
(27:31):
But he didn't.
He did play with them a littlebit.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Well, what I think I don't cause.
I knew that was going to comeinto play, like I don't even
think he was playing with them.
I think he was testing to seeif their character had changed
and you should like if, if atraumatizer comes back into your
life.
You need to ask some hardquestions to see and test their
hearts to see if they'veactually changed, because the
enemy can bring them right backin or people or people that are
(27:57):
like them.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
So ask hard questions to see if there's actually
change Almost like you ain'tgonna fool me twice.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
No, you're not gonna yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
I ain't going into a second hole, that's right.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
That's right.
You ain't telling me twice.
No, you're not going to.
Yeah, I'm going into a secondhole, that's right.
That's right, you ain't tellingme twice.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah, but it's cool to see those, those stories in
the Bible and see how God treatsthose people who have overcome
those trials.
And I think partly.
Yes, it's God blessed.
God's blessing falls on theirlife.
But two they through thatcircumstance, just like we
talked about in the last episode.
They build the characterthrough persevering through that
trial and that hardship, eventhough it came at the hands of
(28:29):
other people.
They develop the character thatcan actually carry the weight
good weight of what God hasplaced in their life the
blessing he's placed on theirlife.
Same thing with Job.
That's so good.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
I think one thing to add too is like if you realize
right now that there'sbitterness in your heart or
you've had church hurt Becauseagain a lot of people want to be
like, because we're so hardagainst the institutional church
and the traditions that nullifythe Word of God, I want you to
understand we're not upset withthe people, we're upset with the
traditions that have beenresurrected, but the people are
(29:05):
the ones giving the traditionspower, so we got to really speak
to that.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
But if tradition is not going to change no tradition
is an inanimate object.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
That's right.
That's right.
The people have to change andgive, take away the power to the
tradition.
So I think if you find yourselfin a place where you're like,
wow, maybe I do have bitternessin my heart, like, what do I
need to do to begin to deal withthe bitterness in my heart?
And at first is as simple asjust making the choice to
forgive.
Forgiveness is a choice.
(29:35):
It's not a feeling or anemotion.
It's just like waking up tobrush your teeth, like I'm going
to be real in the morning.
Sometimes that's not the firstthing I want to do when I wake
up to brush my teeth, but I knowthe result of brushing my teeth
is good for me.
I'm not going to have bloodygums, I'm not going to have
cavities All the things.
Gingivitis will stay away frommy mouth.
So I do it because I know theresult is good for me.
And it's the same withforgiveness.
(29:56):
I choose forgiveness because Iknow the result is good for me.
So, making the choice to forgive, it starts with the choice and
eventually your emotions willline up with your decision to
forgive the person, and theemotional part might take time.
You might not feel butterfliesand rainbows for the person
who's traumatized you or hurtyou or harmed you, but
(30:17):
eventually you're not going tofeel like you could vomit every
time you think about them.
You're actually going to beable to pray for them with a
pure heart.
If you ran into them, you couldactually love them well.
It doesn't mean you have to betheir best friend again or do
life with them or put yourselfin the same position to be hurt
again, but you can actually havegood motive and intention
towards them and when you thinkabout them you don't, you know,
go through the same trauma theyput you through 20 years ago.
(30:40):
So just choosing to forgivebecause, and again putting in
the position of Christ like weall nailed him on the cross by
committing sins.
You know, um, but he stillchose to forgive us anyways, um.
So if he can do that, we haveto tap into that source, into
Jesus's ability to forgive uswho nailed him to a cross.
And when you tap into thatplace, you can see people very
(31:03):
differently and forgivenessbecomes easier.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Yeah, what do you think?
What about situations wheremaybe people aren't directly
involved say that they left thetraditional church system or
they're not like super close toa family member?
Whoever you're hurt by?
We're talking about church hurtin this episode but what about,
like, the person that keeps?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
bringing on the stuff .
Speaker 2 (31:25):
So maybe you don't even go to that church anymore,
but they're continuouslyspeaking poorly about you and
trampling your name.
How do you work through thatand not letting bitterness root
in when it's a constant cycle?
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Yeah, you bless them in prayer and to the ability
that you can you protectyourself from the trauma and the
hurt.
I know this sounds crazy, butif you need to block them from
your social media so you can'tsee the subliminal messages,
that gets your heart in thewrong place.
Like, let's say, you just cameout of your prayer calls and
(31:57):
you're like, lord, bless you,know Sally Jo and bless her life
or heart.
How we'd be naming peoplerandom.
This is what I do.
Jess is always like Brooke stop.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Or Sally Jo.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Bless Sally, jo, bless her socks off, and then
you get on Facebook or Instagramor a text message or whatever,
and that person's once againhurting you the same way.
You just had to forgive them.
It's okay to remove thatconstant dagger in your life.
You can block that person soyou can't see it.
And it's not because you'resaying, hey, I hate you, I don't
(32:33):
like you, I'm blocking you frommy social media.
No, I have forgiven youmultiple times already and so I
can stay in forgiveness and inpure heart towards you.
I have to remove you so that Ican actually love you well.
So sometimes it looks likesetting some boundaries, um, in
your own life, and it might evenbe boundaries they don't have
to know about.
Sometimes it's boundaries thathave to be made very clear to
(32:54):
the person, just depending onthe situation.
But set those boundaries andthen continue to move forward,
sometimes removing the constantvisual of the trauma, or say you
can't, say it's a family memberyou know, or a church you know,
a person in your church thatyou can't run away from.
(33:15):
You just have to begin to lovethem, pray for them and set
boundaries with those people.
And it looks different foreveryone.
So and then stick to theboundary that you've set.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Yeah, I've seen too.
I remember when I first sawthis in scripture and I've read
over it plenty of times, but itnever hit me until we were going
through a situation ofpersecution.
But Jesus didn't always saystay in the midst of your
persecution.
I've heard a lot of people tobe like oh, I'm just toughing it
out because I just feel likeI've just got to stick with this
person or I've got to see themthrough.
(33:48):
And Jesus actually told hisdisciples when you're persecuted
in one town go to the next andthat was helpful for us also,
seeing at one point we're likeall right, there comes a point
to where your message is notbeing received.
And the Lord is like.
I'm going to take you where itwill be received.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
That's right.
I don't know, I guess, for totake you where it will be
received.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
That's right, you know.
So I don't know.
I guess for people that keepthat in mind as well, like you,
don't always have to quote,unquote, stick it out, uh,
further than the Lord is callingyou to, because there could be
people that are ready to receiveuh, his message somewhere else
and see the fruit of that, hismessage somewhere else and see
(34:29):
the fruit of that.
So, yeah, so I know this was ashort and sweet episode, but I
really hope it was helpful forthose of you who have gone
through some hurt.
There's so many differentsituations that it could be.
I mean, we didn't even talkabout people that have been
abused in the church.
That's like a whole other topic.
I don't even know if YouTubewould let us talk about it, but
uh it.
It's just we're realizing, likethe, the system that's created
(34:56):
that puts people in power is theproblem.
And that's why we speak outagainst it.
And again, we love the peopleand that is the reason that we
speak out against a particularsystem that puts people in power
.
That's not to say that you justby doing quote-unquote organic
church or just by meeting in ahome or something like that,
that you're going to completelyavoid any type of hurt or
(35:17):
situations where people can harmyou.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
It's going to happen, it's inevitable.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yeah, and we've been in situations outside of the
institutional church wherepeople have done things against
us, persecuted us, slandered ourname.
So it doesn't matter what fourwalls you're in, it doesn't
matter if you're in a home, acoffee shop, someone cuss you
out in a coffee shop or your car, it doesn't matter if you're
having church in your vehicle,on a bus, like it can still
happen, and so that's why it'sso important to recognize these
(35:42):
things Now.
We're not going tointentionally erect systems that
facilitate that and make iteasier for that person or that
narcissistic person or thatperson that craves power to be
in.
So that's what we're talkingabout, is that let's not make it
easy for them but, let's notalso think that you're immune to
it because you're in adifferent form of church if that
(36:03):
makes sense.
So you just have to be aware ofthat in every situation.
So again, I hope this washelpful and we'll help you guys
kind of navigate through that.
We talked about uh oneacknowledging it, which also
includes walking throughforgiveness.
That process is not alwaysquick and sometimes many times,
if not all times, it is aprocess of forgiveness, where
(36:25):
you have to repeatedly forgivesomeone every single day.
That's not for them.
Like Brooke said, it's a, it'san action, it's a decision.
It's a decision, it's not afeeling.
So we make our decisions basedon truth, we are actions based
on truth, and we allow ouremotions, or we tell our
emotions, to get in line withthe back of the train and they
(36:46):
will follow.
So, acknowledging that, beingaware of the enemy's strongholds
, his footholds, not allowinghim to gain access into our life
through things like bitternessand resentment, that's the
second thing, and anger, yeah,yeah that we talked about, and
then just practical ways ofrenewing our mind to understand
how to actually walk that outthrough knowing what the
(37:06):
scriptures say about how to moveforward.
Because, like this episode istitled, like when that comes in,
we don't just want to get backto a place of homeostasis and
neutrality, we want to actuallygrow and thrive.
So we want to take what theenemy just like Joseph says,
(37:26):
what the enemy meant for harm.
We want to actually turn thatinto something that actually
builds our character, grows us,not only grows us and grows our
character, but allows us to helpothers through that.
That's really how you get backat the enemy, or get back at the
person is by allowing thesituation to actually create in
you more Christlike characterand therefore help more people
(37:50):
through that situation.
Right.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
I think the world that's a really good point the
world tells you just to get backto that homeostasis place like
that neutral place, thatstress-free place for you so you
can be good.
But Jesus says you get right soyou can go rescue others.
You know.
So you're right.
Yeah, start rescuing peoplethat are also in traumas that
(38:14):
you've experienced and you'veovercome and actually became
whole and healthy.
And you'll know that you'rewhole and healthy.
The fruit will speak, you know,and if it's not good fruit
that's coming off your tree, dosome heart work and it always
starts I'm just saying it alwaysstarts with anger.
If you're angry about something, it's going to turn into
bitterness.
So deal with the anger.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Yeah, that's so good.
And so many people.
Last thing I'll say is so manypeople get stuck in that place
and they never actually end upbearing fruit.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
So they're busy fighting against the thing that
they were hurt by so much thatthey actually can never produce
something, produce a fruitfuloutcome for people, and that's
ultimately the direction thatyou want to go.
You don't want just want to bealways reacting and responding
to the thing that hurts you.
You want to actually be part ofthe solution.
You know what I'm saying, so Ihope this was helpful.
I appreciate you guys hangingout with us today and we will
see you in the next episode.
Bye.
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