October 18, 2024 • 38 mins
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At 66, Clay Brown's story is a testament to the power of faith and community in overcoming life's toughest battles. From a childhood marked by early exposure to alcohol, drugs, and pornography, to a tumultuous period in the Marine Corps, Clay's journey has been anything but easy. In our latest episode, Clay opens up about his struggles with addiction, particularly to alcohol and sexual sin, and how he found redemption and a renewed sense of purpose through the Reclaimed community. Discover how his life transformed through unwavering perseverance and grace.
This episode is a powerful reminder of the potential for transformation at any stage of life. Clay's journey didn't stop at overcoming addiction; he pursued higher education at 58, defying societal norms and personal insecurities. With a double major in mathematics and physics, and a minor in biblical languages, Clay's story is a beacon of hope for anyone seeking change. His message is clear: Never give up, no matter how many times you stumble, and believe in the boundless grace of God. Let Clay's journey inspire you to seek help, embrace community, and believe in your potential for growth and redemption.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Reclaimed and Unashamed podcast.
We are helping men to rewiretheir brains and overcome the
shame that often surroundsunwanted pornography use.
I'm your host, colton Thomas,and you're listening to episode
number 23.
And today we're having a veryspecial guest.
You guys don't want to missClay Brown, and I'm really
excited about this one.
(00:23):
This episode is reallyimportant, guys.
Clay is about to be veryvulnerable with you guys.
He's about to share his lifestory, and he's a man who has
wrestled with and come out theother side of multiple
addictions, and so I amincredibly honored to be the one
to get to ask him thesequestions.
(00:43):
I don't think he's probablyever shared a story like this
before, and Clay is someonewho's in our Reclaim community
and has not only shownincredible resilience himself,
but he's helped a ton of otherguys, including me, just as an
inspiration, continually sharingthings like scripture,
continually leaving us messagesof encouragement.
(01:06):
But, above all else, whatyou're going to see in Clay's
story is that he did not give up, and I know that if you're
listening, he wants you to hearhis story and say the same thing
for yourself Do not give up inthe midst or in the face of
temptation and addiction.
Having that said, let's jumpinto the interview.
All right, here today we havewith us Clay Brown.
(01:32):
Really excited to interview youtoday, clay, and you're a
special guest to have on theshow because you have journeyed
through Reclaimed.
So today we have anothertestimonial, so to speak, for
you guys.
But Clay, I think, is going tobe able to provide far more than
a testimonial just from this10-week journey that he's taken
(01:53):
with Reclaimed, but he's got atestimonial to share, really for
his life, clay.
Over time, as I've gotten toknow him, he has shared a lot
about different parts of hisstory where he's overcome a lot.
So why don't you start, clay,just telling us a little bit
about you and your current stageof life and introduce
yourselves to us a little bit?
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Sure, I'm 66 years old.
I'll be 67 in July.
I came to reclaim to you Coltonlast year.
In fact, I've had a year thismonth, of freedom and it
coincides with Reclaimed, andit's been a great blessing.
(02:34):
I'm semi-retired, I have afamily, three grandchildren, two
daughters and two sons, and Icurrently work at a hardware
store with some of my time and Ialso tutor, and I have tutored
for probably off and on for thelast 10 years.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Yeah, yeah, and you also spend quite a bit of your
time now pouring into other menin our community, which I really
admire about you.
So, yeah, could you go back andtell us about some of your
first run-ins with addiction andwhat that looked like in your
life and what really helped youthen to overcome it?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, you know, I was raised in a single parent home.
My father left me, left us,when I was 10, I think, and so
it was my mother.
She was, you know, worked a lotof hours, struggled very hard.
We were poor and to make endsmeet and to raise me.
So the first time I think Icame across pornography was I
(03:45):
was 12.
And I know, working with thecommunity of Reclaimed and some
other programs I've been with Iknow that's a common theme,
although tragically, it'sgetting younger.
But at the age of 12, and itwas just from things left around
that I, you know, happened upon.
It wasn't anything I pursued,but at that point in time it
(04:09):
kind of opened up, awakenedsomething in me and I didn't,
unfortunately, have, you know, Ididn't have a church, we were
not raised, I was not raised ina Christian home.
We never attended church, neverhad a Bible in the house.
You know nothing like that.
My father was gone from thetime I was 12 until, oh gee, I
(04:30):
actually I never did get to seehim again.
When I was in boot camp I foundout, my grandparents sent me
his address and he lives hereand I started corresponding with
him, but he passed away while Iwas in boot camp, so I never
really did get to see him fromthat time, from the time I was
12.
And so kind of had that perfectingredients psychologically to
(04:55):
lead me to an addictive behavior.
And my father was an alcoholicand so my first addiction though
I probably would say it was notas much pornography, although
it was always there at thefoundation, always there lurking
about, I realized later, butwas alcohol and drugs.
So I got involved in drinkingand I got involved in drugs,
(05:20):
hallucinogenics and, uh, cocaine, just whatever you know,
whatever was there.
Uh, I went to the Marine Corps.
I think my mom she I was 17when I went to, when I signed up
and went to bootcamp, and Ithink my mom was hoping that I
would get away from all the youknow bad experiences at a friend
(05:43):
who OD'd and when I'd when Iwas 17.
So a few months later I wentinto boot camp, went to Parris
Island, but it didn't, as we allknow, with any addiction, it
didn't just stay home and I tookthe bus somewhere else.
So I still had the drugs andthe alcohol and after being
(06:03):
stationed in Camp Pendleton inCalifornia, I was introduced to
all these peep shows that werearound the base.
And so now I had, and of course, all the drugs that were
associated around the base.
So now I had both partneringtogether in my addiction, and it
was.
I was every bit as muchaddicted to drugs and alcohol as
(06:25):
I was to pornography.
I got arrested when I was in theservice for sales and
possession of PCP.
I was facing at one timegetting kicked out of the Marine
Corps and then after that thecivilian authorities had me
facing two to 20 years sentenceat Chino State Prison in
(06:45):
California.
So I was kind of stuck.
My addictions did not justleave me alone.
It wasn't a peaceful thing.
Fortunately and I look back nowI see too many times in my life
, like we all do that God waslooking after me, keeping me
from just face planning andbeing done.
(07:08):
But I was put on probation forthe drug charge and I did end up
getting my honorable discharge.
I came out and moved back,ended up in Oklahoma City where
I live now, and the alcohol wasjust eating me up by then.
How old were you at this time?
I was, let's say I was 17 whenI went to boot camp.
(07:29):
I was 20, 21, 22 years old.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
So and I had gotten to the point where I was.
I mean, this wasn't just simplya fact that I'd get drunk once
in a while or get too high anddo silly things.
I got to the point where I hadnowhere to stay.
I was couch hopping from afriend's apartment to friend's
apartment.
I would sneak into my aunt'sapartment when she was at work
(07:54):
and take a shower and grab a fewbites to eat and then leave.
So I was close to destitute atthat point.
My mom, who was a devoutChristian she had been praying
for me, like all faithfulmothers were.
She had come to Christ rightabout the time I went to the
service, not when I was growingup and under her in the house,
but afterwards, and so she hadprayed for me ever since and her
(08:17):
prayers worked.
I came to salvation.
I came to Christ one nightafter stumbling in alcohol for
the nth time and I, just on myknees in my apartment, I just
said God, please save me.
And I reached that low.
I was 26.
(08:39):
I've not had any drug or drinksince, so that was 40 years ago
had any drug or drink since.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
So that was 40 years ago.
Wow, clay, I don't think I knewthat part of the story, exactly
how that happened.
So this is really I mean yourlife's really a testimony of
prayer and someone praying foryou and you getting to that
place just saying like I'm doneenough.
But I think it's important formen to hear that you went
through a lot of consequencesbefore getting to that point and
you suffered a lot ofconsequences before getting to
that point and you suffered alot.
But the fact that that pointdid come and that someone prayed
(09:09):
for you and you had that thatnight, that changed you, man.
Praise god for that.
That's and that's awesome.
Yeah, don't tell me more aboutthat, like the events that
unfolded that night when thathappened, when you prayed, and
then what happened in the daysfollowing that.
I just I believe you're more.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
And I will add, I've always kind of looked back,
think my name is appropriatebecause God has molded me into a
useful vessel.
But so, yeah, I was struggling,but things were working around.
About that time my mom came totown my my aunt had called my
mother, who was living inFlorida, and says Clay is really
(09:50):
in a bad place, you need tocome out here if you can and do
something.
Because she didn't know what todo.
And so my mom flew out and shewas waiting for me when I came
by to sneak in the apartment.
For you know that one time, andshe, she said, just stay here.
And you know, she took me toeat and prayed with me and
(10:11):
talked to me.
I had just had a DUI and I hadmy.
My prize possession was a 1970Mustang convertible and I had, I
had just totaled it, it was ona Christmas party, I was drunk,
I had just ripped it open like acan of beans into a guardrail
(10:32):
and it was just gone, and so Iwas getting pretty low at that
point.
So she was praying for me andthen she said why don't you come
to church?
And so there was a churchacross the street, so that
Sunday me and her went to thischurch and she introduced me to
everyone in the church and therewas, I remember there was a
young man who's about well, he'sabout my age.
(10:53):
He's still around.
I still see him all the time.
Rodney was his name and he washad a similar experience and he
was a new on fire Christian andhe started coming to the bar.
I, like a lot of people,ironically, I was working at a
bar, as I was as an alcoholicRight, so I was a typical thing
(11:15):
but he would come to the bar andhe would talk to me and witness
to me and and I liked him.
You know, it wasn't somethingthat was like, oh no, here comes
the Christian.
And he had a similar story.
And so my mom on one hand, andthen and then Rodney on the
other, and God was working in meand and I wanted to be free,
you know, but I was, I wasenslaved to this particular sin.
(11:36):
I just couldn't get over it.
And I remember the last day mymother had to fly back to
Florida and she said somethingthat really impacted me.
She goes your father, you'rejust like your father, you're
the drugs, the alcohol, and, ofcourse, as a son, I watched
alcohol destroy my father, andyou know my son, my father, he
was a brilliant man.
He was a, he was an accountanthe had.
(11:57):
He went to law school, he was alawyer, he was an up and coming
executive for an oil company bythe name of Wedgwood I don't
even know if they're inexistence anymore and he went
from that point to just a drunkbum.
You know, I think when he passedaway he was a salesman for a
(12:17):
clothing store and so I saw itruin him, and so when she
likened me to my father and hisstate at the end, that really
clicked.
And so it was about two dayslater I went and got real drunk
again, and that night I just gothome and I was like I can't do
(12:38):
this anymore and I actually wason the wagon for a while, and
after she did that for a couplemonths, I think, I was starting
to get everything back together.
I was working I actually wasworking two jobs and then for
about two months I got anapartment and I fell, and when I
fell I fell hard.
(12:59):
And there was that night I Ijust was on my when I I told
mentioned to you about, you know, being on my knees and hitting
rock bottom, praying, and, god,that was the last drink I ever
had.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
So that's heartbreaking when she said that
to you about your father, andyet at the same time it sounds
like facing that truth that ithit you so hard that that really
did something in you, and Ithink it's horrible that your
father was an alcoholic and theway that he lived, and also that
(13:35):
you were raised fatherless andI'm sure you really desired to
know and to have a father.
So all of that is just reallyunjust.
It's not right.
But at the same time, somehowGod was able to use him to get
you to see through your ownstruggle in a way.
And I just find that veryredemptive.
Yeah, would you agree.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah, and you know it's.
I've thought a lot aboutcommunity, especially since
joining Reclaimed, and that'ssomething a reoccurring thought
I have is that sometimes peoplethey don't just need the soft
shell approach.
You know, and it takesdiscernment to know how to be
loving to someone and say youknow, it's not just about
(14:18):
wanting to do good, and I'm aliving testimony you can stay
and wallow in a sin and foryears and then be redeemed from
that.
But yeah, but sometimes ittakes us being shook up and
getting to that point andfalling for the you know how
many times you fall to reallyreach bottom.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yeah, and it sounds like there was really two nights
involved here.
The first was when she told youthat and then you went and got
drunk and then that night, justa couple of days after, she told
you that you were like I've hadenough, and then you did good
for a couple of months.
Then, like you said, you fellhard again.
But imagine if you would havegiven up after that time, right
(15:03):
there when you fell hard thatday.
I'm really interested in thatbecause I think there's a lot of
guys who really get motivatedand something like that happens
to them and they've got thiswill to really just to quit to
quit pornography and then a fewmonths or six months later they
might find themselves havingthat fall.
(15:24):
I've actually heard that fromguys like men, and when I did
slip back, I fell hard and Ithink that happens a lot.
But what's really incredibleabout your story is you didn't
let that fall that time suck youback into the black hole.
You know what I mean.
Like you said no, why was thatthe black hole?
You know what I mean.
Like you, you said no, why wasthat Clay?
Like, why didn't?
Speaker 2 (15:50):
why didn't you get down and stay down after that?
You know well the differencebetween the first incident and
the second one a month or twolater was just I mean, I it's.
It's hard to quantify it, butit's in a very rough way.
Explanation, it's one I believe.
I totally committed to God andbefore I had you know.
(16:10):
It's like there's you look atJudas and he was sorrowful for
his sin and hung himself.
And then you look at Peter whowas sorrowful for his rejecting
Christ and spent his life as amodel for us all.
And to be honest, I don't knowif I can, if I have the magic
explanation for what separatesthose two things.
(16:31):
But there is in 2 Corinthians,I think it's chapter six.
It talks about godly repentanceor godly sorrow and the worldly
sorrow.
So I think I showed both ofthose.
And it also says to me that youcan play the Judas card for a
time and still the grace of Godis still beyond measure.
(16:55):
So I guess what I'm saying is,if I had a message to someone
listening you can't give up, youcan't think, oh, I've stumbled
so many times.
Therefore, I'm just, I'm notgoing to, I'm not going to make
it, I'm not going to make this.
Through this, through thisstruggle, you can be that that
struggle and struggle and stuckand stuck.
(17:16):
I mean my, my addiction tosexual sin.
My struggle with it has lasted.
I mean I was 26 years old whenI at that, that night when I
came to Christ, and I was 65 andI still have.
Every day I have to be on myalert.
I have to make sure that I am,I'm not leaving myself in a
(17:40):
careless position.
I cannot take this casually.
I don't believe any Christiancan live any day of their life
casually without being on, youknow, alert, whether they have
an addictive behavior or not.
So I would say you know that's40, 39 years that I struggled
with pornography.
After I had been so victoriouswith with alcohol, I still
(18:02):
struggled with my other greatenemy, if you will.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
And sexual sin.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah.
So I would like to pivot ourconversation towards that too
and just first of all ask whatdid make it drag out for so many
years in terms of like youfeeling like you weren't able to
make much progress for all thattime.
What do you think contributesto that versus like, for example
, alcohol?
That would be my first question, and then my next would be what
(18:32):
made you want to get intoReclaimed?
How did you find Reclaimed andhow did you find me, and what
was going through your mind atthat time?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Yeah, I mean I was an on-fire born-again Christian.
I mean when I was 26, when thatoccurred and I had this huge
gorilla just removed from myshoulders with alcohol, and that
same young man that would cometo the bar and witness to me.
I ended up going to his churchand he discipled me.
(19:02):
Witness to me.
I ended up going to his churchand he discipled me.
We would go in downtownOklahoma City and get into do
street preaching and we would godoor to door.
I was very active with a youthgroup at the church, so, and
this went on for years, but Idid not see the importance of
(19:22):
guarding myself and so whentemptations would come from this
other, I still had.
This, and that was a big partof my testimony was I've been
sober for so long.
You know, I've been sober forthis many years and this many
years to the point where it'salmost like I let my guard down.
It seems to me that's whathappened, and I don't want to
(19:44):
say that the church didn'tprepare me.
I didn't know anything aboutScripture and the church
probably didn't.
Maybe they're raising adifferent time my elders, when
it was understood, but from myperspective, I just never had
that sense of urgency that everyday, like I do now every day,
(20:09):
to guard myself, to immersemyself in the scriptures and in
prayer and back in those days itmight have been, you know,
don't go to a bar or don't hangout at a house where there's
going to be drugs or alcohol, asopposed to now it would be.
Don't be alone with my devices.
My wife is my accountabilitypartner and we've been married
(20:32):
for almost 30 years now andshe's wonderful.
As far as I can, you know, Iknow when she's going to go to
bed before I do, and we're bothsemi.
She's retired completely.
I'm semi retired.
I will give her my phone and myiPad and I will say here, take
these with you.
Even though I feel comfortableand I think that's because of
(20:53):
the lesson I learned, becauseI've reflected on this the
question you asked why did it?
Why did this drag out so hardso long?
Why did this drag out so hardso long and alcohol did not?
I do think, from my perspective, and probably because I did
struggle so much longer withsexual inappropriate behavior,
is that it does take willpower,great willpower for drugs and
alcohol, but it's one of thosethings you don't have.
(21:15):
It's not like having an iPhonenowadays where you have a bottle
in your back pocket, you knowyou don't have a half pint in
your sock, you know everywhereyou go.
So there is a dynamic therethat is different and I think
makes it more.
You know, satan could not havecome up with a greater device in
context of the world we live intoday than the iPhone.
I don't believe.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
No, I mean, that makes a lot of sense.
And so that brings up a topicthat I think is important to
discuss.
That comes from your story andhow you've handled things, Clay,
because there are some waysthat you've handled things in
regards to pornography and, youknow, keeping that out of your
life that I think is importantfor us to acknowledge and
(21:57):
examine so that others canbenefit, because some of the
ways that you've gone aboutthings are a little bit unique
and a little bit different thanhow I counsel most guys, For
example.
Generally in general I do notcoach or counsel men to involve
their wives as theiraccountability partner, because
most of the time there's apre-existing hurt and mistrust
(22:19):
there already that it's going tomagnify and make things worse,
right.
But in your case, you have arelationship and a history with
your wife such that you knew youcould do that and it could be
healthy and you couldincorporate that into your plan
for recovery.
So you did that and it'sactually been working really
well for you and I haven't heardyou report anything really
(22:42):
negative that it's createdbetween you and your wife, and
so I think what I want toencourage men to think about
here is that you saw theresources you had.
And another thing that I love isI wonder if this comes from
like this way of your thinkingcomes from the years you
struggled with alcohol andovercame it, just that you would
physically hand over yourdevices at certain times for her
(23:04):
to sort of guard and keep.
I think that metaphoricallytakes that bottle of alcohol
that you were just saying is inthe back pocket and you put it
away from you just like youcould with alcohol, right, but
with pornography, so often weget caught up in this game of
trying to block things andfilter things with apps, but
it's still right there in ourpockets and it's still the means
through which we get that fix.
(23:25):
And so I love how you have kindof removed your actual phone
physically from your environmentat times in order to stay on
track, and that's really beenworking well for you.
So again, guys, if you'relistening, just be willing to
take steps like that.
And, man Clay, I think there'sso much humility too in being
(23:46):
willing to guard yourself to thedegree that you do and to take
it seriously enough that youwould be willing to hand those
devices over and live your lifeto a certain extent without
needing them all the time.
Could you speak more into thatSure?
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Now, a lot of it has to do also with part of the
context of my life and I've beenmarried three times Now.
My first two wives, the firstone and we were both druggies
and alcoholics and our marriagelasted a year to the day, almost
counting the divorce andeverything.
(24:23):
We got an annulment.
We didn't have any children,thank goodness, and so that was
the first marriage.
The second one was my son'smother and we were both in the
church.
I had just been there a fewmonths when we met and she came
also from a position of priordrug and alcohol abuse, and then
we were married nine years andshe left and got back into drugs
(24:46):
and the drug scene.
And so my third wife, thecurrent wife, her and I are
still together.
We've been married almost 30years now and because of the
previous two and because I wasolder, I had a few go-arounds, I
guess I told her when we weredating.
I told her that I had thisproblem and so that context kind
(25:07):
of led into that, Whereas maybea lot of the people then
reclaimed who would, or justlistening now may not have that
context and, like you said, itmay not be a good idea.
It just kind of fit thecircumstance for me to go ahead
and be up front like that duringthe dating process.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah, that's really good, that openness and honesty
from the very beginning, andthere's a lot of guys who
haven't had that, and so that'spartly why Reclaimed exists and
we've built the community aspectinto the program so that men's
wives are not their only optionor their first option.
You know they have otheroptions, other men that they can
go through this with is theimportance of reclaimed in the
(25:50):
community there.
But, yes, yeah, I'm glad yousaid something about that.
So, yeah, talk to us about someof the strategies that have
worked the most for you, clay,and how those ideas came about.
Like, what's your thoughtprocess?
You know, like you said, you'vebeen clean or haven't looked at
porn for a year, so walk usthrough.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yes, yes, well, one thing I think one of the most
powerful things is community,and really it has to be centered
on God.
So we have to live a, pursuerighteousness because of our
love for God and ourunderstanding of what he's done
for us, our salvation, and thepower that comes from God.
(26:32):
But community also allows us torelate and, you know, in a way
that God made us or made forcommunity, and so the whole
aspect of being accountable andbeing open and to being able to
share and to share consistently,you know, I think that is
(26:54):
probably one of the single mostpowerful things that we all have
, you know, at Reclaimed, wehave a weekly meeting that we
can Zoom, that we can go to, youknow, and when I go to a lot of
the weekly meetings that wehave, and even if I'm not
speaking, I go to a lot of theweekly meetings that we have,
(27:17):
and even if I'm not speaking,just to be there and to listen
to someone else, it is really,it really is encouraging If I
don't say a word and just hearsomeone else.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
It's just that that glue that comes from community
is very powerful, is verypowerful.
Yeah, I'll just say really quickyou know, if you are not
actively engaging in discussionsabout this with other men and
not just being able to shareabout what you're going through
with other men which isextremely important to have a
safe context you can do that in.
But even apart from that, justif you are not in a situation
where you are able to listen andhear other men talk about their
(27:50):
journey whether they'restruggling or they're overcoming
either one just to be able tosit in the presence of men and
hear them share about it as well, that's all just so healing.
Like if you're struggling withpornography and you're just not
where you want to be, you needthose things, and I think that's
the way that God designed thatto be.
You know what I mean.
(28:10):
He designed us for community,he designed us to heal in
relationships, and so I justwant to say that, guys, you've
got to find that, and would lovefor you to find it here at
Reclaim, but you've got to findthat somewhere somehow.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
The other thing that I would say is I am routine
oriented and every morning I'dhave a read the Bible through
the year program I follow, andthen I have a prayer list.
I have a prayer, I use my notesapp on my phone and then I also
have a little leather boundpocket journals that I transfer
(28:45):
all my notes back and forth frommy phone in case I'm at night
or I'm somewhere I don't want tobe around my phone and I give
it to my wife or something else.
I have that.
So I, every day I try to readmy scripture and then pray, and
I'm always careful to not justdo it ritualistically but to do
(29:07):
it for the purpose of drawingclose to God, and so that daily
walk with God through the Wordof God and through prayer is
another one of the big keypoints for me in maintaining my
walk.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
That's so good and that reminds me Clay.
I was listening the other dayto like a motivational speech
video with music in thebackground, while I was like
running or working out.
You know what I mean.
Sometimes I'm lackingmotivation, so I turn one of
those on and try to pump myselfup, and one of the things that
they were saying is the grindisn't what's happening when the
lights come on in the stadiumand you're going out to play on
(29:45):
the field.
You know the grind is in thedark.
When you're getting up when noone's watching field.
You know the grind is in thedark when you're getting up when
no one's watching.
Right, you know that's wherechampions are made.
And I think about the strugglewith pornography and I just
think about you just doing yourdaily devotion, your worship,
your Bible study.
That's the kind of thing thatmakes porn free men, that makes
men who are living lives whereporn doesn't have power over
(30:09):
them right, where the temptationof porn has been weakened to
the point where it's more thanmanageable and it's not a daily
fear that you live in going backto it or looking at it.
So it's just.
That's not to say that younever are tempted at all.
It's just to say that whenyou're living your life that way
and I've heard you say thatseveral times like man, I'm
(30:31):
really taking my devotion to Godseriously, that that's helped
you, and I've no doubt thatthat's been a huge part of it.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
So thank you for sharing that, this failing over
and over for so long that theredoes come a point where you know
, just like I reached rockbottom in drinking and alcohol,
I reached rock bottom rightbefore I came to you.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
You just kind of realize that there's no other
way than to lean on God and, toyou know, courageously, take
another step forward into this,lean into this, not just being
content with where you wereRight.
And so, as we were talkingabout this, you mentioned a time
in your life where you did kindof lean into your fear and do
something you were afraid of,and I think it's a neat story to
(31:22):
share, so you should tell us alittle bit more about that.
You know what I'm talking about, right?
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Yes, yes, there's a university just down the street
from us and I got a job workingthere in maintenance.
How old were you at this time?
I was in my mid fifties, I was50, let's see 55.
I just retired from the postoffice and I had worked there
for 30 years and I had likelittle bouts.
(31:50):
I was a great underachiever incollege.
I would go to university for ayear or two and then never
finish and never accomplishingin much, just spot hit and miss.
I went to work in themaintenance department and I was
told that after I had beenthere for three years I got free
tuition.
So I was 58 by the time Iactually started and I ended up
(32:12):
getting my degree.
I double majored in mathematicsand physics.
I also minored in biblicallanguages.
Easy, you picked the easiestWell.
I told people because I waitedso long.
I wanted to get the best,biggest bang for my buck.
Wow, man, and I was.
I was challenging myself.
(32:32):
I wanted to do something thatwas significant.
So I did, and I ended uptutoring for the physics
department at SNU for threeyears.
I graded papers and not theusual things you do, and I tutor
now a little bit.
I think my board there is kindof blurry.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Oh yeah, I can see you in the background.
That was not.
Yeah, yeah, some equations upthere, yeah.
So we were talking about this,clay, and you were talking about
how you would show up.
You were the janitor at thecollege and you would show up to
your physics class in yourjanitorial garb.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
My blue S&U maintenance department shirt and
my blue jeans and my boots andmy work hat and I had a backpack
.
And I walked in that first dayin my Calculus 1 class and all
the kids turned around andlooked at me and I think they
were expecting me to fix theprojector or something.
And then, yeah, and then MissDr Professor Turner, he said,
(33:36):
you know, clay, how you doing,glad to have you here, and this
is.
And he introduced you know.
And then, as time went on, Iremember when I graduated I just
felt awkward for some reasongoing to the graduation.
But what I did the previousthree years I would work
security for the graduationceremony.
So I was standing outsidehelping direct traffic and park.
(33:57):
But it was my graduation day.
I just, I think just beingolder, I don't know, I just it
just bothered me to draw thatattention.
But they would come, they werecoming out, all my fellow math
and physics majors were comingout and they were coming out.
All my fellow math and physicsmajors were coming out and they
were they'd all like, circledaround me and we were all
laughing and joking.
So we went from the cultureshock moment in first day of
(34:20):
calculus one to graduation andit was a.
It was a good experience.
It was, it was very gratifying.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Well, we got to throw you a proper graduation
ceremony.
We'll throw you one inreclaimed.
You will forever in reclaimed,be known as the superhero
disguised as the janitor.
That's what I think about.
You're just casually moppingthe floors, but you're, like
this, super bright, know superbright calculus and physics
(34:50):
mastermind.
I just think that's awesome.
I think that's just a testimonyto Clay.
You know you were able toaccomplish that, but you were
able to accomplish your goalswith Reclaimed and quitting
pornography, and I know God hasused you for those things.
He's going to use you for muchmore.
And so, guys, if you arelistening, come join our
community and you're going to beable to see and hear from, and
(35:13):
maybe even get tutored a littlebit by, clay by a physics and
mathematics major, but alsosomeone who is well versed in
life and with addiction as well.
And so thank you so much, clay,for being so open and honest
and vulnerable about your storytoday.
What else, if anything, wouldyou like to leave us with, or
(35:35):
men listening in regards toeverything they've heard today
and your story?
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Yes, don't ever give up, no matter how many times you
stumble or fall, don't ever,ever, ever give up.
Take it from an old man, an oldaddict, who struggled for 40
years as a Christian inpornography.
And I never gave up and thegrace of God is more powerful
(36:01):
than anything we can imagine andthere is no time limit.
On on our struggles.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Amen, amen.
Well, thanks so much for doingthe interview today and being
with us, clay.
Maybe sometime we'll follow upand have you on again, because
this was just a really inspiringdiscussion and you know there's
so many parts of your story,even today, that I hadn't heard
before, but I really saw God'sredemptive hand in it all and
lots of hope and encouragementfor men who are struggling, just
(36:29):
to not give up.
Don't ever give up, guys, takecare.
See you next time.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
God bless.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
What a great interview with Clay.
Several things come to mindjust to wrap this up.
One is just Clay's humilityjust to have gone through so
much in his life but to get to apoint later where he is not
giving up on himself orimproving himself to the point
of tackling a really difficultdegree.
(36:59):
And I think for a lot of peopleit would be tempting to look
back at all the mistakes and theyears spent in addiction and
really dwell on that or dwell onwhat was lost.
And I don't see that at all inClay.
I see a renewed man, I see aman filled with hope from the
gospel and from his faith, and Ithink that's really evident in
(37:20):
this interview and it justreally encourages me.
So I'm really glad you guys gotto be in on that conversation.
I think the actionable step orthe takeaway from this episode
really speaks for itself andthat is to not give up, to look
at Clay and his life story, andthere are many others who later
in life are choosing not to giveup and continue working on
(37:41):
themselves and fightingaddiction, fighting pornography,
and I just think that that'sthe takeaway.
Guys, if you're feelingdiscouraged, it's not too late
for you, right?
And the other thing that Iwanted to mention is that Clay
kept saying that he was themaintenance man, but I got it
stuck in my head during theinterview that he was the
janitor.
So sorry about that, clay, butin my mind I think either way
(38:03):
the story is just as impactfuland it doesn't really make a
difference.
But I just realized that as Iwas editing I did not use very
good listening skills.
That's all we've got for today.
Thanks so much, guys, forlistening to the Reclaimed and
Unashamed podcast.
Have a wonderful blessed dayand stay tuned for the next
episode.
See you later.
Welcome to the Reclaimed and Unashamed podcast.
We are helping men to rewiretheir brains and overcome the
shame that often surroundsunwanted pornography use.
I'm your host, colton Thomas,and you're listening to episode
number 23.
And today we're having a veryspecial guest.
You guys don't want to missClay Brown, and I'm really
excited about this one.
(00:23):
This episode is reallyimportant, guys.
Clay is about to be veryvulnerable with you guys.
He's about to share his lifestory, and he's a man who has
wrestled with and come out theother side of multiple
addictions, and so I amincredibly honored to be the one
to get to ask him thesequestions.
(00:43):
I don't think he's probablyever shared a story like this
before, and Clay is someonewho's in our Reclaim community
and has not only shownincredible resilience himself,
but he's helped a ton of otherguys, including me, just as an
inspiration, continually sharingthings like scripture,
continually leaving us messagesof encouragement.
(01:06):
But, above all else, whatyou're going to see in Clay's
story is that he did not give up, and I know that if you're
listening, he wants you to hearhis story and say the same thing
for yourself Do not give up inthe midst or in the face of
temptation and addiction.
Having that said, let's jumpinto the interview.
All right, here today we havewith us Clay Brown.
(01:32):
Really excited to interview youtoday, clay, and you're a
special guest to have on theshow because you have journeyed
through Reclaimed.
So today we have anothertestimonial, so to speak, for
you guys.
But Clay, I think, is going tobe able to provide far more than
a testimonial just from this10-week journey that he's taken
(01:53):
with Reclaimed, but he's got atestimonial to share, really for
his life, clay.
Over time, as I've gotten toknow him, he has shared a lot
about different parts of hisstory where he's overcome a lot.
So why don't you start, clay,just telling us a little bit
about you and your current stageof life and introduce
yourselves to us a little bit?
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Sure, I'm 66 years old.
I'll be 67 in July.
I came to reclaim to you Coltonlast year.
In fact, I've had a year thismonth, of freedom and it
coincides with Reclaimed, andit's been a great blessing.
(02:34):
I'm semi-retired, I have afamily, three grandchildren, two
daughters and two sons, and Icurrently work at a hardware
store with some of my time and Ialso tutor, and I have tutored
for probably off and on for thelast 10 years.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Yeah, yeah, and you also spend quite a bit of your
time now pouring into other menin our community, which I really
admire about you.
So, yeah, could you go back andtell us about some of your
first run-ins with addiction andwhat that looked like in your
life and what really helped youthen to overcome it?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, you know, I was raised in a single parent home.
My father left me, left us,when I was 10, I think, and so
it was my mother.
She was, you know, worked a lotof hours, struggled very hard.
We were poor and to make endsmeet and to raise me.
So the first time I think Icame across pornography was I
(03:45):
was 12.
And I know, working with thecommunity of Reclaimed and some
other programs I've been with Iknow that's a common theme,
although tragically, it'sgetting younger.
But at the age of 12, and itwas just from things left around
that I, you know, happened upon.
It wasn't anything I pursued,but at that point in time it
(04:09):
kind of opened up, awakenedsomething in me and I didn't,
unfortunately, have, you know, Ididn't have a church, we were
not raised, I was not raised ina Christian home.
We never attended church, neverhad a Bible in the house.
You know nothing like that.
My father was gone from thetime I was 12 until, oh gee, I
(04:30):
actually I never did get to seehim again.
When I was in boot camp I foundout, my grandparents sent me
his address and he lives hereand I started corresponding with
him, but he passed away while Iwas in boot camp, so I never
really did get to see him fromthat time, from the time I was
12.
And so kind of had that perfectingredients psychologically to
(04:55):
lead me to an addictive behavior.
And my father was an alcoholicand so my first addiction though
I probably would say it was notas much pornography, although
it was always there at thefoundation, always there lurking
about, I realized later, butwas alcohol and drugs.
So I got involved in drinkingand I got involved in drugs,
(05:20):
hallucinogenics and, uh, cocaine, just whatever you know,
whatever was there.
Uh, I went to the Marine Corps.
I think my mom she I was 17when I went to, when I signed up
and went to bootcamp, and Ithink my mom was hoping that I
would get away from all the youknow bad experiences at a friend
(05:43):
who OD'd and when I'd when Iwas 17.
So a few months later I wentinto boot camp, went to Parris
Island, but it didn't, as we allknow, with any addiction, it
didn't just stay home and I tookthe bus somewhere else.
So I still had the drugs andthe alcohol and after being
(06:03):
stationed in Camp Pendleton inCalifornia, I was introduced to
all these peep shows that werearound the base.
And so now I had, and of course, all the drugs that were
associated around the base.
So now I had both partneringtogether in my addiction, and it
was.
I was every bit as muchaddicted to drugs and alcohol as
(06:25):
I was to pornography.
I got arrested when I was in theservice for sales and
possession of PCP.
I was facing at one timegetting kicked out of the Marine
Corps and then after that thecivilian authorities had me
facing two to 20 years sentenceat Chino State Prison in
(06:45):
California.
So I was kind of stuck.
My addictions did not justleave me alone.
It wasn't a peaceful thing.
Fortunately and I look back nowI see too many times in my life
, like we all do that God waslooking after me, keeping me
from just face planning andbeing done.
(07:08):
But I was put on probation forthe drug charge and I did end up
getting my honorable discharge.
I came out and moved back,ended up in Oklahoma City where
I live now, and the alcohol wasjust eating me up by then.
How old were you at this time?
I was, let's say I was 17 whenI went to boot camp.
(07:29):
I was 20, 21, 22 years old.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
So and I had gotten to the point where I was.
I mean, this wasn't just simplya fact that I'd get drunk once
in a while or get too high anddo silly things.
I got to the point where I hadnowhere to stay.
I was couch hopping from afriend's apartment to friend's
apartment.
I would sneak into my aunt'sapartment when she was at work
(07:54):
and take a shower and grab a fewbites to eat and then leave.
So I was close to destitute atthat point.
My mom, who was a devoutChristian she had been praying
for me, like all faithfulmothers were.
She had come to Christ rightabout the time I went to the
service, not when I was growingup and under her in the house,
but afterwards, and so she hadprayed for me ever since and her
(08:17):
prayers worked.
I came to salvation.
I came to Christ one nightafter stumbling in alcohol for
the nth time and I, just on myknees in my apartment, I just
said God, please save me.
And I reached that low.
I was 26.
(08:39):
I've not had any drug or drinksince, so that was 40 years ago
had any drug or drink since.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
So that was 40 years ago.
Wow, clay, I don't think I knewthat part of the story, exactly
how that happened.
So this is really I mean yourlife's really a testimony of
prayer and someone praying foryou and you getting to that
place just saying like I'm doneenough.
But I think it's important formen to hear that you went
through a lot of consequencesbefore getting to that point and
you suffered a lot ofconsequences before getting to
that point and you suffered alot.
But the fact that that pointdid come and that someone prayed
(09:09):
for you and you had that thatnight, that changed you, man.
Praise god for that.
That's and that's awesome.
Yeah, don't tell me more aboutthat, like the events that
unfolded that night when thathappened, when you prayed, and
then what happened in the daysfollowing that.
I just I believe you're more.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
And I will add, I've always kind of looked back,
think my name is appropriatebecause God has molded me into a
useful vessel.
But so, yeah, I was struggling,but things were working around.
About that time my mom came totown my my aunt had called my
mother, who was living inFlorida, and says Clay is really
(09:50):
in a bad place, you need tocome out here if you can and do
something.
Because she didn't know what todo.
And so my mom flew out and shewas waiting for me when I came
by to sneak in the apartment.
For you know that one time, andshe, she said, just stay here.
And you know, she took me toeat and prayed with me and
(10:11):
talked to me.
I had just had a DUI and I hadmy.
My prize possession was a 1970Mustang convertible and I had, I
had just totaled it, it was ona Christmas party, I was drunk,
I had just ripped it open like acan of beans into a guardrail
(10:32):
and it was just gone, and so Iwas getting pretty low at that
point.
So she was praying for me andthen she said why don't you come
to church?
And so there was a churchacross the street, so that
Sunday me and her went to thischurch and she introduced me to
everyone in the church and therewas, I remember there was a
young man who's about well, he'sabout my age.
(10:53):
He's still around.
I still see him all the time.
Rodney was his name and he washad a similar experience and he
was a new on fire Christian andhe started coming to the bar.
I, like a lot of people,ironically, I was working at a
bar, as I was as an alcoholicRight, so I was a typical thing
(11:15):
but he would come to the bar andhe would talk to me and witness
to me and and I liked him.
You know, it wasn't somethingthat was like, oh no, here comes
the Christian.
And he had a similar story.
And so my mom on one hand, andthen and then Rodney on the
other, and God was working in meand and I wanted to be free,
you know, but I was, I wasenslaved to this particular sin.
(11:36):
I just couldn't get over it.
And I remember the last day mymother had to fly back to
Florida and she said somethingthat really impacted me.
She goes your father, you'rejust like your father, you're
the drugs, the alcohol, and, ofcourse, as a son, I watched
alcohol destroy my father, andyou know my son, my father, he
was a brilliant man.
He was a, he was an accountanthe had.
(11:57):
He went to law school, he was alawyer, he was an up and coming
executive for an oil company bythe name of Wedgwood I don't
even know if they're inexistence anymore and he went
from that point to just a drunkbum.
You know, I think when he passedaway he was a salesman for a
(12:17):
clothing store and so I saw itruin him, and so when she
likened me to my father and hisstate at the end, that really
clicked.
And so it was about two dayslater I went and got real drunk
again, and that night I just gothome and I was like I can't do
(12:38):
this anymore and I actually wason the wagon for a while, and
after she did that for a couplemonths, I think, I was starting
to get everything back together.
I was working I actually wasworking two jobs and then for
about two months I got anapartment and I fell, and when I
fell I fell hard.
(12:59):
And there was that night I Ijust was on my when I I told
mentioned to you about, you know, being on my knees and hitting
rock bottom, praying, and, god,that was the last drink I ever
had.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
So that's heartbreaking when she said that
to you about your father, andyet at the same time it sounds
like facing that truth that ithit you so hard that that really
did something in you, and Ithink it's horrible that your
father was an alcoholic and theway that he lived, and also that
(13:35):
you were raised fatherless andI'm sure you really desired to
know and to have a father.
So all of that is just reallyunjust.
It's not right.
But at the same time, somehowGod was able to use him to get
you to see through your ownstruggle in a way.
And I just find that veryredemptive.
Yeah, would you agree.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah, and you know it's.
I've thought a lot aboutcommunity, especially since
joining Reclaimed, and that'ssomething a reoccurring thought
I have is that sometimes peoplethey don't just need the soft
shell approach.
You know, and it takesdiscernment to know how to be
loving to someone and say youknow, it's not just about
(14:18):
wanting to do good, and I'm aliving testimony you can stay
and wallow in a sin and foryears and then be redeemed from
that.
But yeah, but sometimes ittakes us being shook up and
getting to that point andfalling for the you know how
many times you fall to reallyreach bottom.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yeah, and it sounds like there was really two nights
involved here.
The first was when she told youthat and then you went and got
drunk and then that night, justa couple of days after, she told
you that you were like I've hadenough, and then you did good
for a couple of months.
Then, like you said, you fellhard again.
But imagine if you would havegiven up after that time, right
(15:03):
there when you fell hard thatday.
I'm really interested in thatbecause I think there's a lot of
guys who really get motivatedand something like that happens
to them and they've got thiswill to really just to quit to
quit pornography and then a fewmonths or six months later they
might find themselves havingthat fall.
(15:24):
I've actually heard that fromguys like men, and when I did
slip back, I fell hard and Ithink that happens a lot.
But what's really incredibleabout your story is you didn't
let that fall that time suck youback into the black hole.
You know what I mean.
Like you said no, why was thatthe black hole?
You know what I mean.
Like you, you said no, why wasthat Clay?
Like, why didn't?
Speaker 2 (15:50):
why didn't you get down and stay down after that?
You know well the differencebetween the first incident and
the second one a month or twolater was just I mean, I it's.
It's hard to quantify it, butit's in a very rough way.
Explanation, it's one I believe.
I totally committed to God andbefore I had you know.
(16:10):
It's like there's you look atJudas and he was sorrowful for
his sin and hung himself.
And then you look at Peter whowas sorrowful for his rejecting
Christ and spent his life as amodel for us all.
And to be honest, I don't knowif I can, if I have the magic
explanation for what separatesthose two things.
(16:31):
But there is in 2 Corinthians,I think it's chapter six.
It talks about godly repentanceor godly sorrow and the worldly
sorrow.
So I think I showed both ofthose.
And it also says to me that youcan play the Judas card for a
time and still the grace of Godis still beyond measure.
(16:55):
So I guess what I'm saying is,if I had a message to someone
listening you can't give up, youcan't think, oh, I've stumbled
so many times.
Therefore, I'm just, I'm notgoing to, I'm not going to make
it, I'm not going to make this.
Through this, through thisstruggle, you can be that that
struggle and struggle and stuckand stuck.
(17:16):
I mean my, my addiction tosexual sin.
My struggle with it has lasted.
I mean I was 26 years old whenI at that, that night when I
came to Christ, and I was 65 andI still have.
Every day I have to be on myalert.
I have to make sure that I am,I'm not leaving myself in a
(17:40):
careless position.
I cannot take this casually.
I don't believe any Christiancan live any day of their life
casually without being on, youknow, alert, whether they have
an addictive behavior or not.
So I would say you know that's40, 39 years that I struggled
with pornography.
After I had been so victoriouswith with alcohol, I still
(18:02):
struggled with my other greatenemy, if you will.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
And sexual sin.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah.
So I would like to pivot ourconversation towards that too
and just first of all ask whatdid make it drag out for so many
years in terms of like youfeeling like you weren't able to
make much progress for all thattime.
What do you think contributesto that versus like, for example
, alcohol?
That would be my first question, and then my next would be what
(18:32):
made you want to get intoReclaimed?
How did you find Reclaimed andhow did you find me, and what
was going through your mind atthat time?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Yeah, I mean I was an on-fire born-again Christian.
I mean when I was 26, when thatoccurred and I had this huge
gorilla just removed from myshoulders with alcohol, and that
same young man that would cometo the bar and witness to me.
I ended up going to his churchand he discipled me.
(19:02):
Witness to me.
I ended up going to his churchand he discipled me.
We would go in downtownOklahoma City and get into do
street preaching and we would godoor to door.
I was very active with a youthgroup at the church, so, and
this went on for years, but Idid not see the importance of
(19:22):
guarding myself and so whentemptations would come from this
other, I still had.
This, and that was a big partof my testimony was I've been
sober for so long.
You know, I've been sober forthis many years and this many
years to the point where it'salmost like I let my guard down.
It seems to me that's whathappened, and I don't want to
(19:44):
say that the church didn'tprepare me.
I didn't know anything aboutScripture and the church
probably didn't.
Maybe they're raising adifferent time my elders, when
it was understood, but from myperspective, I just never had
that sense of urgency that everyday, like I do now every day,
(20:09):
to guard myself, to immersemyself in the scriptures and in
prayer and back in those days itmight have been, you know,
don't go to a bar or don't hangout at a house where there's
going to be drugs or alcohol, asopposed to now it would be.
Don't be alone with my devices.
My wife is my accountabilitypartner and we've been married
(20:32):
for almost 30 years now andshe's wonderful.
As far as I can, you know, Iknow when she's going to go to
bed before I do, and we're bothsemi.
She's retired completely.
I'm semi retired.
I will give her my phone and myiPad and I will say here, take
these with you.
Even though I feel comfortableand I think that's because of
(20:53):
the lesson I learned, becauseI've reflected on this the
question you asked why did it?
Why did this drag out so hardso long?
Why did this drag out so hardso long and alcohol did not?
I do think, from my perspective, and probably because I did
struggle so much longer withsexual inappropriate behavior,
is that it does take willpower,great willpower for drugs and
alcohol, but it's one of thosethings you don't have.
(21:15):
It's not like having an iPhonenowadays where you have a bottle
in your back pocket, you knowyou don't have a half pint in
your sock, you know everywhereyou go.
So there is a dynamic therethat is different and I think
makes it more.
You know, satan could not havecome up with a greater device in
context of the world we live intoday than the iPhone.
I don't believe.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
No, I mean, that makes a lot of sense.
And so that brings up a topicthat I think is important to
discuss.
That comes from your story andhow you've handled things, Clay,
because there are some waysthat you've handled things in
regards to pornography and, youknow, keeping that out of your
life that I think is importantfor us to acknowledge and
(21:57):
examine so that others canbenefit, because some of the
ways that you've gone aboutthings are a little bit unique
and a little bit different thanhow I counsel most guys, For
example.
Generally in general I do notcoach or counsel men to involve
their wives as theiraccountability partner, because
most of the time there's apre-existing hurt and mistrust
(22:19):
there already that it's going tomagnify and make things worse,
right.
But in your case, you have arelationship and a history with
your wife such that you knew youcould do that and it could be
healthy and you couldincorporate that into your plan
for recovery.
So you did that and it'sactually been working really
well for you and I haven't heardyou report anything really
(22:42):
negative that it's createdbetween you and your wife, and
so I think what I want toencourage men to think about
here is that you saw theresources you had.
And another thing that I love isI wonder if this comes from
like this way of your thinkingcomes from the years you
struggled with alcohol andovercame it, just that you would
physically hand over yourdevices at certain times for her
(23:04):
to sort of guard and keep.
I think that metaphoricallytakes that bottle of alcohol
that you were just saying is inthe back pocket and you put it
away from you just like youcould with alcohol, right, but
with pornography, so often weget caught up in this game of
trying to block things andfilter things with apps, but
it's still right there in ourpockets and it's still the means
through which we get that fix.
(23:25):
And so I love how you have kindof removed your actual phone
physically from your environmentat times in order to stay on
track, and that's really beenworking well for you.
So again, guys, if you'relistening, just be willing to
take steps like that.
And, man Clay, I think there'sso much humility too in being
(23:46):
willing to guard yourself to thedegree that you do and to take
it seriously enough that youwould be willing to hand those
devices over and live your lifeto a certain extent without
needing them all the time.
Could you speak more into thatSure?
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Now, a lot of it has to do also with part of the
context of my life and I've beenmarried three times Now.
My first two wives, the firstone and we were both druggies
and alcoholics and our marriagelasted a year to the day, almost
counting the divorce andeverything.
(24:23):
We got an annulment.
We didn't have any children,thank goodness, and so that was
the first marriage.
The second one was my son'smother and we were both in the
church.
I had just been there a fewmonths when we met and she came
also from a position of priordrug and alcohol abuse, and then
we were married nine years andshe left and got back into drugs
(24:46):
and the drug scene.
And so my third wife, thecurrent wife, her and I are
still together.
We've been married almost 30years now and because of the
previous two and because I wasolder, I had a few go-arounds, I
guess I told her when we weredating.
I told her that I had thisproblem and so that context kind
(25:07):
of led into that, Whereas maybea lot of the people then
reclaimed who would, or justlistening now may not have that
context and, like you said, itmay not be a good idea.
It just kind of fit thecircumstance for me to go ahead
and be up front like that duringthe dating process.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah, that's really good, that openness and honesty
from the very beginning, andthere's a lot of guys who
haven't had that, and so that'spartly why Reclaimed exists and
we've built the community aspectinto the program so that men's
wives are not their only optionor their first option.
You know they have otheroptions, other men that they can
go through this with is theimportance of reclaimed in the
(25:50):
community there.
But, yes, yeah, I'm glad yousaid something about that.
So, yeah, talk to us about someof the strategies that have
worked the most for you, clay,and how those ideas came about.
Like, what's your thoughtprocess?
You know, like you said, you'vebeen clean or haven't looked at
porn for a year, so walk usthrough.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yes, yes, well, one thing I think one of the most
powerful things is community,and really it has to be centered
on God.
So we have to live a, pursuerighteousness because of our
love for God and ourunderstanding of what he's done
for us, our salvation, and thepower that comes from God.
(26:32):
But community also allows us torelate and, you know, in a way
that God made us or made forcommunity, and so the whole
aspect of being accountable andbeing open and to being able to
share and to share consistently,you know, I think that is
(26:54):
probably one of the single mostpowerful things that we all have
, you know, at Reclaimed, wehave a weekly meeting that we
can Zoom, that we can go to, youknow, and when I go to a lot of
the weekly meetings that wehave, and even if I'm not
speaking, I go to a lot of theweekly meetings that we have,
(27:17):
and even if I'm not speaking,just to be there and to listen
to someone else, it is really,it really is encouraging If I
don't say a word and just hearsomeone else.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
It's just that that glue that comes from community
is very powerful, is verypowerful.
Yeah, I'll just say really quickyou know, if you are not
actively engaging in discussionsabout this with other men and
not just being able to shareabout what you're going through
with other men which isextremely important to have a
safe context you can do that in.
But even apart from that, justif you are not in a situation
where you are able to listen andhear other men talk about their
(27:50):
journey whether they'restruggling or they're overcoming
either one just to be able tosit in the presence of men and
hear them share about it as well, that's all just so healing.
Like if you're struggling withpornography and you're just not
where you want to be, you needthose things, and I think that's
the way that God designed thatto be.
You know what I mean.
(28:10):
He designed us for community,he designed us to heal in
relationships, and so I justwant to say that, guys, you've
got to find that, and would lovefor you to find it here at
Reclaim, but you've got to findthat somewhere somehow.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
The other thing that I would say is I am routine
oriented and every morning I'dhave a read the Bible through
the year program I follow, andthen I have a prayer list.
I have a prayer, I use my notesapp on my phone and then I also
have a little leather boundpocket journals that I transfer
(28:45):
all my notes back and forth frommy phone in case I'm at night
or I'm somewhere I don't want tobe around my phone and I give
it to my wife or something else.
I have that.
So I, every day I try to readmy scripture and then pray, and
I'm always careful to not justdo it ritualistically but to do
(29:07):
it for the purpose of drawingclose to God, and so that daily
walk with God through the Wordof God and through prayer is
another one of the big keypoints for me in maintaining my
walk.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
That's so good and that reminds me Clay.
I was listening the other dayto like a motivational speech
video with music in thebackground, while I was like
running or working out.
You know what I mean.
Sometimes I'm lackingmotivation, so I turn one of
those on and try to pump myselfup, and one of the things that
they were saying is the grindisn't what's happening when the
lights come on in the stadiumand you're going out to play on
(29:45):
the field.
You know the grind is in thedark.
When you're getting up when noone's watching field.
You know the grind is in thedark when you're getting up when
no one's watching.
Right, you know that's wherechampions are made.
And I think about the strugglewith pornography and I just
think about you just doing yourdaily devotion, your worship,
your Bible study.
That's the kind of thing thatmakes porn free men, that makes
men who are living lives whereporn doesn't have power over
(30:09):
them right, where the temptationof porn has been weakened to
the point where it's more thanmanageable and it's not a daily
fear that you live in going backto it or looking at it.
So it's just.
That's not to say that younever are tempted at all.
It's just to say that whenyou're living your life that way
and I've heard you say thatseveral times like man, I'm
(30:31):
really taking my devotion to Godseriously, that that's helped
you, and I've no doubt thatthat's been a huge part of it.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
So thank you for sharing that, this failing over
and over for so long that theredoes come a point where you know
, just like I reached rockbottom in drinking and alcohol,
I reached rock bottom rightbefore I came to you.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
You just kind of realize that there's no other
way than to lean on God and, toyou know, courageously, take
another step forward into this,lean into this, not just being
content with where you wereRight.
And so, as we were talkingabout this, you mentioned a time
in your life where you did kindof lean into your fear and do
something you were afraid of,and I think it's a neat story to
(31:22):
share, so you should tell us alittle bit more about that.
You know what I'm talking about, right?
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Yes, yes, there's a university just down the street
from us and I got a job workingthere in maintenance.
How old were you at this time?
I was in my mid fifties, I was50, let's see 55.
I just retired from the postoffice and I had worked there
for 30 years and I had likelittle bouts.
(31:50):
I was a great underachiever incollege.
I would go to university for ayear or two and then never
finish and never accomplishingin much, just spot hit and miss.
I went to work in themaintenance department and I was
told that after I had beenthere for three years I got free
tuition.
So I was 58 by the time Iactually started and I ended up
(32:12):
getting my degree.
I double majored in mathematicsand physics.
I also minored in biblicallanguages.
Easy, you picked the easiestWell.
I told people because I waitedso long.
I wanted to get the best,biggest bang for my buck.
Wow, man, and I was.
I was challenging myself.
(32:32):
I wanted to do something thatwas significant.
So I did, and I ended uptutoring for the physics
department at SNU for threeyears.
I graded papers and not theusual things you do, and I tutor
now a little bit.
I think my board there is kindof blurry.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Oh yeah, I can see you in the background.
That was not.
Yeah, yeah, some equations upthere, yeah.
So we were talking about this,clay, and you were talking about
how you would show up.
You were the janitor at thecollege and you would show up to
your physics class in yourjanitorial garb.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
My blue S&U maintenance department shirt and
my blue jeans and my boots andmy work hat and I had a backpack
.
And I walked in that first dayin my Calculus 1 class and all
the kids turned around andlooked at me and I think they
were expecting me to fix theprojector or something.
And then, yeah, and then MissDr Professor Turner, he said,
(33:36):
you know, clay, how you doing,glad to have you here, and this
is.
And he introduced you know.
And then, as time went on, Iremember when I graduated I just
felt awkward for some reasongoing to the graduation.
But what I did the previousthree years I would work
security for the graduationceremony.
So I was standing outsidehelping direct traffic and park.
(33:57):
But it was my graduation day.
I just, I think just beingolder, I don't know, I just it
just bothered me to draw thatattention.
But they would come, they werecoming out, all my fellow math
and physics majors were comingout and they were coming out.
All my fellow math and physicsmajors were coming out and they
were they'd all like, circledaround me and we were all
laughing and joking.
So we went from the cultureshock moment in first day of
(34:20):
calculus one to graduation andit was a.
It was a good experience.
It was, it was very gratifying.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Well, we got to throw you a proper graduation
ceremony.
We'll throw you one inreclaimed.
You will forever in reclaimed,be known as the superhero
disguised as the janitor.
That's what I think about.
You're just casually moppingthe floors, but you're, like
this, super bright, know superbright calculus and physics
(34:50):
mastermind.
I just think that's awesome.
I think that's just a testimonyto Clay.
You know you were able toaccomplish that, but you were
able to accomplish your goalswith Reclaimed and quitting
pornography, and I know God hasused you for those things.
He's going to use you for muchmore.
And so, guys, if you arelistening, come join our
community and you're going to beable to see and hear from, and
(35:13):
maybe even get tutored a littlebit by, clay by a physics and
mathematics major, but alsosomeone who is well versed in
life and with addiction as well.
And so thank you so much, clay,for being so open and honest
and vulnerable about your storytoday.
What else, if anything, wouldyou like to leave us with, or
(35:35):
men listening in regards toeverything they've heard today
and your story?
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Yes, don't ever give up, no matter how many times you
stumble or fall, don't ever,ever, ever give up.
Take it from an old man, an oldaddict, who struggled for 40
years as a Christian inpornography.
And I never gave up and thegrace of God is more powerful
(36:01):
than anything we can imagine andthere is no time limit.
On on our struggles.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Amen, amen.
Well, thanks so much for doingthe interview today and being
with us, clay.
Maybe sometime we'll follow upand have you on again, because
this was just a really inspiringdiscussion and you know there's
so many parts of your story,even today, that I hadn't heard
before, but I really saw God'sredemptive hand in it all and
lots of hope and encouragementfor men who are struggling, just
(36:29):
to not give up.
Don't ever give up, guys, takecare.
See you next time.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
God bless.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
What a great interview with Clay.
Several things come to mindjust to wrap this up.
One is just Clay's humilityjust to have gone through so
much in his life but to get to apoint later where he is not
giving up on himself orimproving himself to the point
of tackling a really difficultdegree.
(36:59):
And I think for a lot of peopleit would be tempting to look
back at all the mistakes and theyears spent in addiction and
really dwell on that or dwell onwhat was lost.
And I don't see that at all inClay.
I see a renewed man, I see aman filled with hope from the
gospel and from his faith, and Ithink that's really evident in
(37:20):
this interview and it justreally encourages me.
So I'm really glad you guys gotto be in on that conversation.
I think the actionable step orthe takeaway from this episode
really speaks for itself andthat is to not give up, to look
at Clay and his life story, andthere are many others who later
in life are choosing not to giveup and continue working on
(37:41):
themselves and fightingaddiction, fighting pornography,
and I just think that that'sthe takeaway.
Guys, if you're feelingdiscouraged, it's not too late
for you, right?
And the other thing that Iwanted to mention is that Clay
kept saying that he was themaintenance man, but I got it
stuck in my head during theinterview that he was the
janitor.
So sorry about that, clay, butin my mind I think either way
(38:03):
the story is just as impactfuland it doesn't really make a
difference.
But I just realized that as Iwas editing I did not use very
good listening skills.
That's all we've got for today.
Thanks so much, guys, forlistening to the Reclaimed and
Unashamed podcast.
Have a wonderful blessed dayand stay tuned for the next
episode.
See you later.
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