November 24, 2023 • 34 mins
Send us a text with feedback about the show or questions you'd like to see addressed.
Are you hungry for a deeper exploration of your story when it comes to overcoming shame and pornography addiction? With our returning guest, Allan Standford, we examine how pornography use is actually a misguided strategy for working out our struggles and life stories.
The episode drives even deeper into the dark corridors of fear- the fear of rejection, and its intertwined relationship with unwanted sexual behaviors. We dissect this fear, tracing its origin to the unsettling lack of control in vulnerable, loving relationships. As we tread these murky waters, we also expose the exploitative and coercive face of the pornography industry. We urge you to delve into your personal biases and understand the root of your motivations, a critical step towards initiating positive changes. Further, we explore how pornography sometimes serves as a 'window looking out from your inner turmoil and a desperate longing for love."
Join us, as we wrestle with these challenging topics in our quest to understand and overcome.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kolton Thomas (00:00):
Welcome to the Reclaimed and Unashamed podcast.
We are helping men to rewiretheir brains and overcome the
shame that often surroundsunwanted pornography use.
I'm your host, Kolton Thomas,and you are now listening to
episode 20, where we are havingour guest, alan Standford, back
again.
He was our guest a few episodesago.
We're gonna have himreintroduce himself a little bit
(00:21):
for those of you who did nottune into his last episode.
However, if you missed that, Iwould encourage you to go back.
Listen to that other one first.
Alan just brings years ofpractical experience working
with men who struggle with notonly pornography addiction but
also with sex addiction.
You know men who have hadtrouble acting out to where
their addiction has gone fromprivate to public having affairs
.
One huge takeaway from theepisode, as you're going to see,
(00:43):
is that we talk about how,specifically, pornography is
attempting to help us worksomething out about ourselves
and our story Basically.
In other words, what is theusefulness that we're getting
out of pornography in our lifethat has us continuing to come
back to it, that has usrevisiting it again and again,
even though it hurts us so badly, because you know, by applying
(01:04):
logic, you'd think that well, ifsomething hurts really badly
again and again, and again.
Then we would just be able toeventually stop once it hurts
bad enough.
But for so many guys they feeltrapped, and so that would not
be the case if pornography wasnot helping us to sort something
out.
And exactly what that is issomething we're going to talk
(01:25):
about in this podcast episode.
Of course, it's a littledifferent for each guy, but
we're going to talk about someexamples of how to sort this out
in your own story, in your ownlife, and, of course, we don't
recommend doing it withoutgetting proper help and guidance
from a professional, someonethat has experience, especially
if you've been stuck for a longtime.
Guys, and there are a lot ofplaces you can go that offer you
(01:46):
solutions that produce moreshame and more hurt.
And so be on guard, right?
I know sometimes it's hard totrust yourself if you're
struggling with pornographybecause you're not doing the
things that you say that you'regoing to do, as in you're not
quitting pornography when youwant to quit pornography.
So sometimes it can be hard totrust yourself, but if you're
participating in some kind ofprogram and you have a gut
(02:07):
that's telling you that this isprobably harming you, like
you're feeling even more ashamedthan you did before.
Then you can trust yourselfenough to get out of that and
seek another program or seekmore help.
I also want to add that thereare men like Andrew Tate in the
world, or even David Goggins youknow, I really like David
Goggins, but these are men outthere who are really kind of
(02:28):
becoming iconic in our culturefor masculinity and their
primary messages are often youknow, no one else can help you.
You've got to do this yourself.
You don't need the help orassistance of other people.
You're weak if you rely onother people.
I just want to take a secondand say if you're listening to
those guys, that's not bad.
You can find a lot ofmotivation in the things that
(02:48):
they're saying.
However, what it can do iscreate this mindset that help is
not good for you, or you don'tneed it or you shouldn't get it,
and you're weak if you seek it,and that's just a very highly
individualistic mindset.
Again, I don't disagree witheverything that they're saying,
although I do disagree with mostof what Andrew Tate says maybe
that's a conversation foranother episode and I really
(03:09):
believe that even David Gogginswould agree with that.
I mean, he was on a teamessentially right In the Navy
SEALs, like he relied on histeam, so he knows how to be a
team player too.
But you just have to be carefulif you're listening to certain
figures online that get you inthis mindset of like, oh man, if
I haven't figured this outmyself by now, then I just need
to engage in a different kind ofself-discipline or a different
kind of self-talk.
(03:30):
Man, we are not wired that way.
We are wired to grow and healin relationships and so as you
listen to this episode, pleasekeep that in mind and along
those lines.
Lately we've had some guys signup for our 10-week journey here
at Reclaim.
That's our flagship programthat's designed to help men,
even if they've been strugglingwith pornography for a long time
, even if they've tried a lot ofother things and they haven't
(03:51):
worked.
This 10-week journey isdesigned to help men get results
and move forward, and I've hada lot of conversations with guys
recently that have said I'vetried these other things, either
by myself you know, I've beenreading books, or I tried
getting an accountability from acouple of my close friends or
they've even tried someoneelse's program and they've just
(04:11):
said I know I need to go deeper.
Where can I find that?
Deeper work?
And that is exactly what we'vedesigned Reclaimed both the
community and our 10-weekprogram to be Now.
It does require an investment.
If you guys are interested inthat and you think you're in a
place where you're ready to dosomething like that, where you
know the work is intensive, I'mnot gonna shy away from the
(04:33):
amount of work andself-reflection and effort, as
well as vulnerability, thatdoing the program is gonna take,
because you cannot get throughthe program without building
real relationships with othermen, without getting real
accountability, one-on-oneaccountability and coaching, and
so it's not gonna be easy, butit is very, very effective and
I've seen it work for so manymen.
So again, guys, we'reapproaching the end of another
(04:54):
year.
If you want to be free ofpornography and live a better
than porn life in the followingyear, then why don't you reach
out to me?
You can get on our main website, wwwreclaimedrecoverycom, and
you'll see links right there onthe homepage for how to join our
community app, and once you getin the app and create an
account, you can actually reachout to me and message me
(05:16):
directly in there I can get yougoing in the right direction.
We can set up a call to discussthe program and we can explore
together whether that'ssomething that's gonna be a good
fit for you.
So now I think we're ready tomove on with our episode.
We're gonna begin with Alanjust giving himself another
quick introduction and thenwe're gonna dive right in.
Yeah, man, you are the honoredguest of the show and you're a
(05:36):
great friend and a mentor ofmine.
You're also a therapist in thecommunity and we share the same
alma mater, john BrownUniversity Counseling Program.
Anyways, tell us some moreabout yourself, alan.
Tell us a little bit about yourbackground and therapy and
anything you want to share, justabout your family and what you
love to do.
Allan Stanford (05:56):
Yeah, sure, I've got a big family, five kids,
married for 16 years andcounting.
And let's see.
I went to UCA.
I studied psychology andphilosophy there.
I started my graduate programin counseling there, took a high
atus, finished a John Brown andhave a master's in marriage and
family therapy and licensedmarriage and family therapist
and licensed professionalcounselor.
(06:16):
Along the way I heard thecertified sex addiction
therapist credentials.
Kolton Thomas (06:21):
Yeah, and so that's a pretty extensive
training.
It really takes an investment,it costs a lot, it takes a lot
of time to get the training, andso that's giving you important
tools and your tool belt andexperience to deal with men who
are wrestling with unwantedsexual behaviors and pornography
.
So maybe a good place to startis just talking about why, what
are the reasons that you see alot of men coming in struggling
(06:44):
with either pornography orunwanted sexual behaviors?
Allan Stanford (06:47):
Well, for one, because it's so powerful, and by
powerful I mean it's effectiveat getting at the human thing.
It's like, in a way, porn sexin general speaks to who we are
as human beings and the deepdesire we have to be wanted and
desired.
You know it has all the it'sright.
(07:08):
I mean it has somebody elsewanting to be let in by me and
to like, move towards my goodand what feels good, and also
indicating to me that letting meinto them is good for them and
that they desire that, andthat's like the deepest human
thing.
That's why sex and nakedness istalked about so much in all the
(07:32):
ancient religions of the worldand it's just it's really core
to the human thing.
Kolton Thomas (07:36):
It's in culture, it's in art, all the movies we
watch, it's everywhere.
You know, it's not somethingthat can be stifled or pushed
down.
It's that integral to ouridentities as human and it has
to be treated as such.
And you know, I think whatyou're getting at there is like
we've talked about this on thepodcast before but just our
desire to be deeply known anddeeply loved, fully known and
(07:59):
fully loved.
You know, I'm curious.
I think so many guys who watchporn know that that's not what
they're really getting and yetfor some reason, it's still so
enticing to us.
And it makes me curious aboutwhy and for example, I think
about in movies that we watch weso easily place ourselves in
the shoes of, like the hero ofthe movie.
You know, if you think aboutwhen you were a kid, whether it
(08:20):
was Star Wars or the Rings, wedo have this amazing capability
to place ourselves in the shoesof the people we're watching and
feel this sense of realnessabout it.
So I don't know maybe you couldspeak into that Is that a big
part of what makes this possible, why pornography is so enticing
?
Allan Stanford (08:39):
Well, there's something you said a minute ago.
I think we all feel that if Iwere really known, that's what
we all want.
That's what the good guy wants,even the like the most
malevolent bad guy in the movie.
The moment he's really reallyfinally completely understood he
is loved, right.
You can't really separate thetwo.
(09:00):
To understand, to know fully isto honor that person's
perspective and to validatetheir.
I don't know their experienceand the whole thing and their
motives.
Like you, don't understand whythis villain does this thing,
and that's part of the reasonhe's a bad guy.
Until you understand it andit's sympathetic, it doesn't
(09:20):
make what he's doing right, butit makes you stop hating him.
Kolton Thomas (09:23):
Yeah, it makes you see that even people who are
taking actions that harm othersmay not be acting off of
intentions of the purest evil.
There's a reason for everything.
There's a reason why people arebehaving the way that they are,
even if it's manifesting itselfas evil.
That's an interesting thought.
I think there's a lot of moviesthat add character development
to the bad guy, but I also thinkthat there's movies where the
(09:47):
bad guy is just the bad guy andhis intentions deep down at the
core are for power, control andmaybe even to harm others, like
getting this sort of sadisticpleasure out of harming others.
I do think that thosecharacters do exist.
I think that the devil andSatan and the Bible is kind of
portrayed that way.
But even he has a backstory,Right?
(10:08):
Even he has.
Allan Stanford (10:09):
That's what I was going to say.
Every step you take towards thepurity of the evil of the
villain has to also be a stepaway from his humanity.
You have to have a villain whois, if he's going to be
increasingly purely evil, he hasto be decreasing like human and
increasingly something else,like Sauron.
Like Sauron, because to behuman, to be man, really is to
(10:31):
desire to be understood, even ifit's misguided.
There is something there thatsees itself as the good guy and
worthy of being understood.
Now, the degree to which hedistrusts that he can be
understood, or anybody ever will, may have him committing evil
and withdrawing into himself.
That's where you get if youwon't let go of the humanity but
(10:53):
you're determined to movetowards evil as far as possible.
It really as far as you can gois something like Gollum, which
is a sad, pathetic, self-meaningthing of what used to be a
human.
Kolton Thomas (11:08):
Yeah, I think the reason why that's true is
because if we all believe we'remade in the image of God and
that image of God is in us, thathumanity in essence is he
created us with goodness wecan't completely separate
ourselves from that goodness ashumans, like you said, as we
move towards evil.
Allan Stanford (11:27):
That's separating ourselves from
ourselves as well.
Kolton Thomas (11:29):
Yeah, that's a good thought, okay.
Isn't it possible, though, thatone could be known very well
and then rejected by someone forany number of reasons?
Some have described that as ourworst fear is to become
vulnerable, to open ourselves upto others, even to get down
(11:51):
that path, that journey ofsomeone else knowing us.
I'm thinking, for example, youthink about a husband and a wife
, one of the greatestopportunities that exists on
earth to be fully known andfully loved by someone.
I think one of the greatestfears is that you will go down
this path of being fully knownby your spouse and yet they just
(12:11):
wind up leaving you orrejecting you.
That leaves people completelyin shambles.
Yeah, with what you were saying, I think the distinction can be
made, but they're part of thesame journey.
Is that a good way to say it?
Like, being fully known andfully loved go in tandem in the
same journey, but it is possibleto make a distinction.
Does that sound right?
Allan Stanford (12:31):
I think what you're putting your finger on,
though, is the fear that we feelthat if we were fully known, we
would be exposed as not good,we would be found to be unworthy
of being loved.
The problem is when you assignthe authority to adjudicate on
that question to someone asundeserving of that authority as
(12:53):
your spouse, who is justanother boy or girl struggling
with their own insecurities, andyou're assuming that they one
really do know you fully, whichI don't think that any piece.
I mean, I've been married for16 years and I couldn't possibly
make that claim about my wife.
Yeah, the fear is that if shefully knew me or like, let's say
(13:17):
, that she did turn away from meand left me yeah, it would be
tempting to read into that that,see, she fully knew me and
rejected me.
I'm worthless, but that'sassigning a lot of authoritative
power to her that is notappropriate.
Kolton Thomas (13:29):
Yeah, and so we have to turn this conversation
towards God.
If we're going to be fullyknown and yet rejected and not
fully loved, I think God is theone that we fear in this
equation then right, and why isthat such a big fear for so many
people, even though there'ssuch a clear message of grace
that rings true in the Bible?
And then, ultimately, like, howdoes this tie back to changing
(13:51):
our behaviors and leading us tolook at pornography, acting out
on unwanted sexual behaviors?
Allan Stanford (13:58):
Yeah, I think it .
You're raising a Really seriousconundrum.
That, I think, has this, allyou know, pretty trapped.
I mean that that's that'sexactly the thing.
I'm a.
You know CS Lewis said that thegates of heller lock from the
inside Because it is to be inhell is to close yourself off to
(14:18):
being loved out of fear thatyou won't be, or out of To be
loved is a very uncontrolledexperience, like that's just
what love is.
To have other who isFundamentally other than you,
absolutely other, look on youkindly and desire you and want
to will your good, is somethingthat you necessarily can't
(14:39):
control.
If you could control theywouldn't really totally be other
right, it's a like grown-up,vulnerable love is a very out of
control, very scary In riskyproposition and so we close
ourselves off.
We try and control as many ofthe variables as we can to, you
know, not put ourselves at themercy of being loved.
(15:00):
We don't like yeah resist thatscary, and we desperately need
it, and so we wrap ourselves upin Looking super successful and,
you know, in business, or insports, or or putting on, or
being good at resisting allthose things you know being
counterculture or whatever.
You know not letting anybodyget above me in any way.
(15:22):
That makes me feel like I'm attheir mercy, which is, of course
, where I would experience beingloved by someone who was the
very least.
But we just all that.
We insulate ourselves from allthat, and then, in the secret of
our bathrooms and bedrooms, weWatch pornography and fantasize
about what it would be like,though, if somebody who wanted
(15:46):
to Really was let in and reallydid love me and when wanted to
be with me and wanted me to lovethem.
Kolton Thomas (15:54):
You know, it's stuck in the middle, and that's
really what hell is, I thinkyeah, well, that's so
interesting because what you'resaying essentially is that
pursuing pornography is like aslice of hell on earth, because
essentially what you're doing isyou are foregoing the risk of
being known and being vulnerablebecause you're afraid of it,
and you know you're describingthat.
(16:15):
Perhaps that's what hell islike it's for people who are
afraid of being fully known.
They don't want to take therisk to be loved by God and to
be loved by others, and so weall say that porn is bad, and
Christian men feel that.
But I think it's so importantto flesh out why, because so
often, without that fullunderstanding of why, our
(16:38):
motivation or our clarity justisn't quite there, and I think
sometimes I can make thedifference between being able to
say no and stop looking at itor not.
Allan Stanford (16:47):
Well and this is a critique of the Christian
thing, I think, in its modernexpression, but I think really
it has been a problem forhundreds of years is this Very
juvenile finger pointing at thething that is obviously bad,
that everybody knows is likethat.
There's nothing holy about this, but then condemning that as
(17:08):
the problem itself and likepriding ourselves in our ability
to Put our finger on the thingthat's not good, you know.
It's like oh, you're doing thenot good thing, you're, you're
one of those, you're on.
That like proves that you're onthe other side of the line.
You know everybody else is.
You know, pretend to have itall together and you know it's
really.
(17:28):
I think it's a stupid andchildish way of thinking about
pornography.
Yes, there is plenty of evil inpornography, certainly in the
industry itself, in sextrafficking, and of course, none
of us who are using pornographyReally know the extent to which
that woman or man is willinglyparticipating in what's
happening.
We can have all kinds oflegislation in place, we can
(17:50):
have all kinds of agreements andeverything you know in place,
but at the end of the day, whenyou're looking at that video,
you don't really know.
Kolton Thomas (17:56):
Yeah, that person you don't know well, I mean,
that's not just a hypothesisanymore.
That's proven by countlesstestimonials that have come out
from people who have left theindustry.
Especially in recent years,we're seeing an explosion of
different former porn starscoming out and sharing their
full story of how they werecoerced.
(18:16):
You know, a lot of casestricked or, at the very least,
taken advantage of for theirvulnerability Happens all the
time, and the biggest and thisisn't just like one off people
who you know, no one knows aboutin the industry these are some
of the biggest born stars thathave come out and shared these
stories, and so it's not like aquestion, it's not a hypothesis.
(18:38):
So, yeah, the evil in theindustry, I think, is very
evident.
Allan Stanford (18:43):
I'm gonna say absolutely, and I'm gonna say
two unpopular things about that.
Okay, one is this is going tooffend people left of this issue
potentially in saying thatanybody who is married has been
married.
Any man who has been married.
I think this is my bias.
Two woman knows her has workedhard at developing a robust and
(19:06):
healthy sexual life with her,and or any man who has had a
daughter knows intuitively andpowerfully that the life of this
worker is a wounded.
It requires a person to beoperating from a wounded state.
Even people that claim like no,I'm doing this absolutely of my
own accord.
(19:27):
There's something hurt beingcarried out in that.
That's my bias.
But, as you pointed out,there's plenty of reason to
believe that that is a subset ofsex workers or people who
really are doing this becausethey want to, and there's lots
of things that we do that wewant to do that is not coming
from a Nobody's making us do it,but we're hurting ourselves
(19:47):
anyway.
So I'll say that.
But the other thing I'll say isthat about the sex trafficking
and abuses and all the horribleevil that's happening behind the
screen.
While that is sometimessomething that helps awareness
of that is sometimes somethingthat helps people who are
struggling with porn addictionresist and begin to dismantle
(20:08):
some of their arousal templatewith it, it really is not a
useful awareness when it comesto understanding the very
personal question of why I'mdrawn to porn.
It's a background question.
There's nothing to do with whya man is drawn to porn.
What he's sorting out thereit's one more reason.
(20:28):
That's a unhelpful way to sortthose problems out, but it has
nothing to do with sorting thoseproblems out.
Yeah, and so it's notparticularly helpful in therapy,
except in piling on shame andmaking it more confusing and
more painful.
Kolton Thomas (20:41):
Yeah, that makes sense, and so I think that we
should really steer the rest ofthis podcast towards getting to
the underlying reasons of why westruggle with porn and also
what to do about it.
What can men do about it?
So how do men go on thatjourney, and what does that
journey look like to understandwhy they're using it?
Allan Stanford (20:59):
That's a good question and I think that the
best programs for helping peoplesteer away from porn, for
people overcome or recover fromhaving a dependent relationship
with pornography programs likeyour program and, to a large
extent, programs like the CSATprogram that we talked about
earlier is they're helpful inwalking alongside these men and
(21:22):
women on their journey ofunderstanding what that part of
them that is drawn towards pornis really looking for, what it's
sorting out.
We're all sorting something outall the time, and when we have
something that has power in ourlives that we can't help coming
back to them, those features ofour lives.
More than any other life is anarena where something important
(21:42):
is being sorted out, and if wejust paint it with broad strokes
and say, well, you're just anaddict, or it's just bad, or
you're just out of control, oryou're immature, or you're a
pervert or whatever, it's justtotally unhelpful.
It has never helped anybodyunderstand themselves better.
So, understanding yourself iscritical.
Understanding what is thissexual scenario that I keep
(22:03):
coming back to has power for me.
There's a wound that it'sspeaking to, and I think the
fact that it has powerdemonstrates that there's a
wound underneath it.
Does that make sense?
Kolton Thomas (22:13):
Yeah, it does, and what you're saying is that
this is an opportunity to knowoneself.
The opportunity to grow inself-awareness and to examine
yourself perhaps deeper than youever have before and I think
we've talked about this on thepodcast too is a lot of times.
That requires going back toyour childhood and examining
(22:34):
ways that you were wounded.
Right and we talked about thatrecently too is how oftentimes
we're acting out based on priorwounding and so we live with
this woundedness of, this fearthat we can't be our authentic
self.
Could you speak more into that?
Allan Stanford (22:50):
Well, again, I think it speaks to this
desperate desire to be loved,and part of the reason I think
it's so broad sweeping in itsoccurrence I mean, it seems like
just about everybody in everyculture is dealing with this on
some level, and I think part ofthe explanation for that is just
how blank the canvas is, Ithink, in that you can project
(23:11):
almost anything you want onto it, and so it's very easily
transferred from person toperson.
Two people watching the samevideo can be experiencing
something very different, andthat's just across the same
video.
But never mind all the genresof porn and all that, if you
know what I mean.
Kolton Thomas (23:26):
Like yeah again.
Allan Stanford (23:27):
I think it just comes back to how powerful sex
is and how easy it is to projectyour fantasies onto what you're
watching.
Kolton Thomas (23:35):
Yeah, I mean, and fantasies are powerful.
I often talk about howimagination is one of the
greatest gifts that God gave usthis ability to envision a
better future, to buildsomething of our lives and to
leave a legacy, keeping the endof our lives in mind and working
towards that.
These are just amazing thingsabout imagination.
But it's so powerful and thereis a fantasy that will engage
(23:59):
our imagination that pornographyhijacks, it utilizes, and, like
you said, there is a fantasy.
There's a different genre ofporn for just about anything you
can think of now, and thatwould not be so if it was not so
lucrative and if it did notspeak something of man's desire.
And so let's talk about acouple of examples.
(24:22):
What does it look like forsomeone to use porn in order to
fulfill the story that they'retelling them about themselves,
or to try to heal a certainwoundedness?
What does that look like?
Allan Stanford (24:33):
Well, I think your question sort of
demonstrates that porn somethingyou said earlier like that is
what it's like to be in hell,and I think that's true from a
certain perspective.
But I think more to the pointis that porn is a window out of
hell.
That, if to be in hell is whatwe're talking about earlier,
where it's this experience ofbeing trapped behind your own
(24:55):
desperation not to be vulnerable, your own determination not to
be vulnerable but alsodesperately longing to be loved,
then porn is like a littleporthole on the side of that.
It's warped and it's skewed,but you're looking at and
wishing you weren't trapped inhell and fantasizing about what
it would be like to be in thisfree relationship with somebody
(25:15):
who just wanted to have sex withyou.
So that's it on a high level.
But I think you asked thequestion what does it look like
to be looking at porn from thiswounded place?
And I think it looks likeanybody watching porn.
I mean, I think you can take anexample of like one genre of
porn, be approaching it wherethere is somebody who clearly
(25:37):
has power over somebody else andis like dominating somebody and
fantasizing about that is for alot of the guys that I've
worked with is them playing out.
There's a childhood experiencethat they have of being in a
totally powerless posture andthey are fantasizing about one
of two things.
(25:57):
They're either fantasizingabout being the powerless person
and succeeding in pleasuringthe person who's powerful and in
that way, securing theirposition in the relationship,
like they're rehearsing theirtrauma in that regard, or
replaying it.
You know, over and over traumarepetition, we call it, and it's
like the more they can do that,the more they satisfy their
(26:20):
oppressor in that regard, andthere's an arousing component to
that for them that makes themfeel safe and comforted.
Or they're fantasizing aboutbeing the person in the more
powerful position and they'rewinning back.
They are rehearsing the mirror,as it were, that they're never
going to get beat and thatthey're always going to win,
that they're always going to beon top and that they're going to
get theirs and nobody's goingto stop them.
(26:41):
And they fantasize in a waythat does do certainly ugly
characters throughout history.
You might imagine Hitler, youknow, tossing and turning his
bed at night like he's not goingto get beat.
These, you know, these peopleare not going to.
He's going to overpowereverybody.
So that's always coming from avery hurt and run over that
nobody is doing that coolly andlike a twirling the mustache and
(27:05):
you know thinking, you knowlike, oh, this would be a good
way to hurt other people.
That's always coming from adeeply hurt place.
Does that make sense?
So that's one of the ways that,like porn, it can be an arena
where we're sorting somethingout.
And that's an extreme example,and you know I, a lot of people,
I say it's extreme, I mean alot of people experience that,
note, that is, if they're braveenough to admit that to
(27:25):
themselves and to a therapistthat they can trust.
But the vast majority of peoplewho are struggling with an
addiction with porn probably arenot moving in that direction.
It's something less toxic, youknow, but it's a good example
nonetheless of like that there'ssomething being sorted out even
in the most benign and gentleand apparently consensual, you
(27:47):
know, pornographic scenarios.
Kolton Thomas (27:49):
Yeah, and so you got this woundedness.
You're bleeding from differentinsecurities from your past that
you've never really faced, orfears, or whatever it is.
You're bleeding and you slapthis really like old, infected
band-aid on it.
That's porn, basically, andthat sense porn is a solution.
It's a bad one, but you know,guys, if you're out there and
(28:10):
you feel like, well, you're justwatching porn, just for the
high of it and that's all thereis to it, don't be naive.
Don't be naive to think thatthere's not a lot more going on
than that.
You know because, again, youknow, alan, you could probably
speak to this, but I know, I'veseen it time and time again
everyone who's struggling withthis has a story and there are
(28:31):
always more things, more layersunderneath, more connections,
like a web of connections thatcan be made that help people
understand why they're usingsomething like pornography.
Because, like you said, porn ispowerful.
You're not using this powerfulthing for nothing, you know,
especially if you've toldyourself you want to quit but
you can't.
There's a reason for that, youknow.
Allan Stanford (28:52):
Well, what I would add to that, I think, is
or maybe even refine, is thatsex is powerful.
Porn is only as powerful asyour wounding is.
There are lots of people forwhom porn has no power.
There's no, there's nothingintriguing about it, you know,
and they don't even understandhow porn can have power.
It's just like, it just feelscreepy, like you're watching
(29:13):
other people have sex, you know.
Yeah, that should tell ussomething, right?
Well, and that can, becausethere can be power in that as
well.
I mean, that's, you know, likeif you're afraid of it, that's
like, maybe, if not being ableto look away is addicted, not
being able to hold on toyourself in the presence of it
might be anorexic, you know, Idon't know, but I think what is
(29:36):
important is like how, again,how powerful this is.
Does that make sense?
Kolton Thomas (29:40):
Yeah, it does.
Yeah, that's insightful.
So I know we've only got a fewminutes left, so ending this.
If porn is not the way we needto be working out our stories,
what is the way that we could beworking out our stories Like
what does the path to healinglook like?
Allan Stanford (29:54):
I think the path to healing.
It could look like a lot ofthings for a lot of people, but
I think for everybody it's goingto contain these ingredients.
It's going to containunderstanding yourself.
It's going to contain owningfor yourself the responsibility
to know and love yourself in theway you're hoping this other
adult is going to show up andgive you permission to know and
(30:15):
love.
Does that make sense?
Like we're all in ourwoundedness waiting for this mom
or dad to show up and scoop usup and tell us we're okay?
Growing up is, and healing is,a process of owning the
responsibility for that taskourselves.
When we do that, sex becomes apowerful tool for connecting
with and knowing another person,rather than being rescued or
(30:38):
healed in our wounding oranything like that.
Those things are always goingto get in the way and distract
sex from what its purpose reallyis.
So, yeah, it's going to includethose things knowing yourself,
having compassion for yourselfand beginning to take a role of
authority in your own internalworld.
That is loving andunderstanding.
Kolton Thomas (30:57):
Awesome.
Those are really good insights.
More specifically, what doesthat look like?
What steps can someone take togo on this journey and know
themselves better, and whatencouragement can you offer guys
who are really feeling stuck orstruggling with this?
Allan Stanford (31:13):
Stop being frustrated with yourself.
That's not helping.
See your addiction with porn inthe same way you see your
addiction with alcohol or withanything else, whatever culture
or your religious drama oranything else tells you about
how disgusting that is or howworthless you are because that's
happening.
Push back at all that andunderstand that something very
(31:35):
sweet and tender and honest ishappening in that process.
And so, I think, not beingfrustrated with yourself and
instead being deeply curiousabout yourself and finding help.
Finding somebody in your lifethat is and I don't say help in
a way that because you'rehelpless and you can't do it on
your own, I'm saying that youdon't have to, you don't have to
(31:57):
do it by yourself and findingsomebody who is not going to be
the adult that pulls you out ofthe water, but it's going to be
somebody who swims next to youwhile you're sorting this out.
I think that can be a therapist.
In some cases that can be apastor who's particularly wise
and experienced.
Look for a therapist in yourarea.
I think that's a tremendousfirst step, and as soon as
(32:19):
somebody is trying to offer youa controlling solution, trading
one mistress for another isn'tgoing to help.
If somebody is offering you asolution that sounds unduly
controlling or shaming.
Walk away, find somebody else.
Kolton Thomas (32:34):
That's not going to help.
That's so good, alan man.
Thank you so much for your timesharing your wisdom with us on
the podcast.
I know you've got to go here.
Loved having you as a guest man.
We've got to have you back on,thanks for having me Talk about
some of these things even more.
I think there's so many topicswe hit on.
We could go in more detail, soanyways, yeah, man, we will talk
soon.
We'll see you around.
Allan Stanford (32:52):
Sounds great, thank you.
Kolton Thomas (32:54):
All right, guys.
Well, that's all we've got fortoday.
Thanks for tuning in to anotherepisode, man.
It almost seems like thesecounselors and therapists know
what they're talking about.
Man, just Alan, is so good atgetting to the heart of the
issue, at really going deeperthan I think most people could,
at diagnosing this, taking thosesurgical tools and helping us
get to the bottom.
(33:14):
Of course, in a podcast likethis, we're not able to get to
the bottom of every singleperson's unique story, because
you've got to have some helpthat's custom, tailored to you,
and so that's where, like I saidat the beginning of the episode
, don't be afraid to seek thathelp, whether that's an
in-person therapist near you ora community like ours that
reclaimed in a program where youcan get that individual,
(33:37):
personalized help that you needto move forward, get unstuck and
live porn free.
Y'all have a wonderful day.
We'll see you in the nextepisode coming very soon.
Until then, thank you forlistening to the Reclaimed
Recovery Podcast.
If you enjoyed listening totoday's interview, you can help
me move mountains by taking acouple minutes of your time and
(33:59):
supporting the podcast.
There's a couple of key waysyou can do that.
One is really easy you canleave a review for the podcast.
A lot of times, when it comesto reviews, people tend to take
time to leave negative ones, butnot positive ones, but you can
help change that and leave apositive review for this podcast
if it's making a difference inyour life.
The second thing you can do isyou can contribute financially
(34:20):
and you can help me in creatingmore high quality,
well-researched content andinterviews.
So you can find a link tosupport us through PayPal or
Patreon in the show notes.
Thanks so much, guys you rock.
Get out there, be resilient,live porn free.
We'll see you next time.
Welcome to the Reclaimed and Unashamed podcast.
We are helping men to rewiretheir brains and overcome the
shame that often surroundsunwanted pornography use.
I'm your host, Kolton Thomas,and you are now listening to
episode 20, where we are havingour guest, alan Standford, back
again.
He was our guest a few episodesago.
We're gonna have himreintroduce himself a little bit
(00:21):
for those of you who did nottune into his last episode.
However, if you missed that, Iwould encourage you to go back.
Listen to that other one first.
Alan just brings years ofpractical experience working
with men who struggle with notonly pornography addiction but
also with sex addiction.
You know men who have hadtrouble acting out to where
their addiction has gone fromprivate to public having affairs
.
One huge takeaway from theepisode, as you're going to see,
(00:43):
is that we talk about how,specifically, pornography is
attempting to help us worksomething out about ourselves
and our story Basically.
In other words, what is theusefulness that we're getting
out of pornography in our lifethat has us continuing to come
back to it, that has usrevisiting it again and again,
even though it hurts us so badly, because you know, by applying
(01:04):
logic, you'd think that well, ifsomething hurts really badly
again and again, and again.
Then we would just be able toeventually stop once it hurts
bad enough.
But for so many guys they feeltrapped, and so that would not
be the case if pornography wasnot helping us to sort something
out.
And exactly what that is issomething we're going to talk
(01:25):
about in this podcast episode.
Of course, it's a littledifferent for each guy, but
we're going to talk about someexamples of how to sort this out
in your own story, in your ownlife, and, of course, we don't
recommend doing it withoutgetting proper help and guidance
from a professional, someonethat has experience, especially
if you've been stuck for a longtime.
Guys, and there are a lot ofplaces you can go that offer you
(01:46):
solutions that produce moreshame and more hurt.
And so be on guard, right?
I know sometimes it's hard totrust yourself if you're
struggling with pornographybecause you're not doing the
things that you say that you'regoing to do, as in you're not
quitting pornography when youwant to quit pornography.
So sometimes it can be hard totrust yourself, but if you're
participating in some kind ofprogram and you have a gut
(02:07):
that's telling you that this isprobably harming you, like
you're feeling even more ashamedthan you did before.
Then you can trust yourselfenough to get out of that and
seek another program or seekmore help.
I also want to add that thereare men like Andrew Tate in the
world, or even David Goggins youknow, I really like David
Goggins, but these are men outthere who are really kind of
(02:28):
becoming iconic in our culturefor masculinity and their
primary messages are often youknow, no one else can help you.
You've got to do this yourself.
You don't need the help orassistance of other people.
You're weak if you rely onother people.
I just want to take a secondand say if you're listening to
those guys, that's not bad.
You can find a lot ofmotivation in the things that
(02:48):
they're saying.
However, what it can do iscreate this mindset that help is
not good for you, or you don'tneed it or you shouldn't get it,
and you're weak if you seek it,and that's just a very highly
individualistic mindset.
Again, I don't disagree witheverything that they're saying,
although I do disagree with mostof what Andrew Tate says maybe
that's a conversation foranother episode and I really
(03:09):
believe that even David Gogginswould agree with that.
I mean, he was on a teamessentially right In the Navy
SEALs, like he relied on histeam, so he knows how to be a
team player too.
But you just have to be carefulif you're listening to certain
figures online that get you inthis mindset of like, oh man, if
I haven't figured this outmyself by now, then I just need
to engage in a different kind ofself-discipline or a different
kind of self-talk.
(03:30):
Man, we are not wired that way.
We are wired to grow and healin relationships and so as you
listen to this episode, pleasekeep that in mind and along
those lines.
Lately we've had some guys signup for our 10-week journey here
at Reclaim.
That's our flagship programthat's designed to help men,
even if they've been strugglingwith pornography for a long time
, even if they've tried a lot ofother things and they haven't
(03:51):
worked.
This 10-week journey isdesigned to help men get results
and move forward, and I've hada lot of conversations with guys
recently that have said I'vetried these other things, either
by myself you know, I've beenreading books, or I tried
getting an accountability from acouple of my close friends or
they've even tried someoneelse's program and they've just
(04:11):
said I know I need to go deeper.
Where can I find that?
Deeper work?
And that is exactly what we'vedesigned Reclaimed both the
community and our 10-weekprogram to be Now.
It does require an investment.
If you guys are interested inthat and you think you're in a
place where you're ready to dosomething like that, where you
know the work is intensive, I'mnot gonna shy away from the
(04:33):
amount of work andself-reflection and effort, as
well as vulnerability, thatdoing the program is gonna take,
because you cannot get throughthe program without building
real relationships with othermen, without getting real
accountability, one-on-oneaccountability and coaching, and
so it's not gonna be easy, butit is very, very effective and
I've seen it work for so manymen.
So again, guys, we'reapproaching the end of another
(04:54):
year.
If you want to be free ofpornography and live a better
than porn life in the followingyear, then why don't you reach
out to me?
You can get on our main website, wwwreclaimedrecoverycom, and
you'll see links right there onthe homepage for how to join our
community app, and once you getin the app and create an
account, you can actually reachout to me and message me
(05:16):
directly in there I can get yougoing in the right direction.
We can set up a call to discussthe program and we can explore
together whether that'ssomething that's gonna be a good
fit for you.
So now I think we're ready tomove on with our episode.
We're gonna begin with Alanjust giving himself another
quick introduction and thenwe're gonna dive right in.
Yeah, man, you are the honoredguest of the show and you're a
(05:36):
great friend and a mentor ofmine.
You're also a therapist in thecommunity and we share the same
alma mater, john BrownUniversity Counseling Program.
Anyways, tell us some moreabout yourself, alan.
Tell us a little bit about yourbackground and therapy and
anything you want to share, justabout your family and what you
love to do.
Allan Stanford (05:56):
Yeah, sure, I've got a big family, five kids,
married for 16 years andcounting.
And let's see.
I went to UCA.
I studied psychology andphilosophy there.
I started my graduate programin counseling there, took a high
atus, finished a John Brown andhave a master's in marriage and
family therapy and licensedmarriage and family therapist
and licensed professionalcounselor.
(06:16):
Along the way I heard thecertified sex addiction
therapist credentials.
Kolton Thomas (06:21):
Yeah, and so that's a pretty extensive
training.
It really takes an investment,it costs a lot, it takes a lot
of time to get the training, andso that's giving you important
tools and your tool belt andexperience to deal with men who
are wrestling with unwantedsexual behaviors and pornography
.
So maybe a good place to startis just talking about why, what
are the reasons that you see alot of men coming in struggling
(06:44):
with either pornography orunwanted sexual behaviors?
Allan Stanford (06:47):
Well, for one, because it's so powerful, and by
powerful I mean it's effectiveat getting at the human thing.
It's like, in a way, porn sexin general speaks to who we are
as human beings and the deepdesire we have to be wanted and
desired.
You know it has all the it'sright.
(07:08):
I mean it has somebody elsewanting to be let in by me and
to like, move towards my goodand what feels good, and also
indicating to me that letting meinto them is good for them and
that they desire that, andthat's like the deepest human
thing.
That's why sex and nakedness istalked about so much in all the
(07:32):
ancient religions of the worldand it's just it's really core
to the human thing.
Kolton Thomas (07:36):
It's in culture, it's in art, all the movies we
watch, it's everywhere.
You know, it's not somethingthat can be stifled or pushed
down.
It's that integral to ouridentities as human and it has
to be treated as such.
And you know, I think whatyou're getting at there is like
we've talked about this on thepodcast before but just our
desire to be deeply known anddeeply loved, fully known and
(07:59):
fully loved.
You know, I'm curious.
I think so many guys who watchporn know that that's not what
they're really getting and yetfor some reason, it's still so
enticing to us.
And it makes me curious aboutwhy and for example, I think
about in movies that we watch weso easily place ourselves in
the shoes of, like the hero ofthe movie.
You know, if you think aboutwhen you were a kid, whether it
(08:20):
was Star Wars or the Rings, wedo have this amazing capability
to place ourselves in the shoesof the people we're watching and
feel this sense of realnessabout it.
So I don't know maybe you couldspeak into that Is that a big
part of what makes this possible, why pornography is so enticing
?
Allan Stanford (08:39):
Well, there's something you said a minute ago.
I think we all feel that if Iwere really known, that's what
we all want.
That's what the good guy wants,even the like the most
malevolent bad guy in the movie.
The moment he's really reallyfinally completely understood he
is loved, right.
You can't really separate thetwo.
(09:00):
To understand, to know fully isto honor that person's
perspective and to validatetheir.
I don't know their experienceand the whole thing and their
motives.
Like you, don't understand whythis villain does this thing,
and that's part of the reasonhe's a bad guy.
Until you understand it andit's sympathetic, it doesn't
(09:20):
make what he's doing right, butit makes you stop hating him.
Kolton Thomas (09:23):
Yeah, it makes you see that even people who are
taking actions that harm othersmay not be acting off of
intentions of the purest evil.
There's a reason for everything.
There's a reason why people arebehaving the way that they are,
even if it's manifesting itselfas evil.
That's an interesting thought.
I think there's a lot of moviesthat add character development
to the bad guy, but I also thinkthat there's movies where the
(09:47):
bad guy is just the bad guy andhis intentions deep down at the
core are for power, control andmaybe even to harm others, like
getting this sort of sadisticpleasure out of harming others.
I do think that thosecharacters do exist.
I think that the devil andSatan and the Bible is kind of
portrayed that way.
But even he has a backstory,Right?
(10:08):
Even he has.
Allan Stanford (10:09):
That's what I was going to say.
Every step you take towards thepurity of the evil of the
villain has to also be a stepaway from his humanity.
You have to have a villain whois, if he's going to be
increasingly purely evil, he hasto be decreasing like human and
increasingly something else,like Sauron.
Like Sauron, because to behuman, to be man, really is to
(10:31):
desire to be understood, even ifit's misguided.
There is something there thatsees itself as the good guy and
worthy of being understood.
Now, the degree to which hedistrusts that he can be
understood, or anybody ever will, may have him committing evil
and withdrawing into himself.
That's where you get if youwon't let go of the humanity but
(10:53):
you're determined to movetowards evil as far as possible.
It really as far as you can gois something like Gollum, which
is a sad, pathetic, self-meaningthing of what used to be a
human.
Kolton Thomas (11:08):
Yeah, I think the reason why that's true is
because if we all believe we'remade in the image of God and
that image of God is in us, thathumanity in essence is he
created us with goodness wecan't completely separate
ourselves from that goodness ashumans, like you said, as we
move towards evil.
Allan Stanford (11:27):
That's separating ourselves from
ourselves as well.
Kolton Thomas (11:29):
Yeah, that's a good thought, okay.
Isn't it possible, though, thatone could be known very well
and then rejected by someone forany number of reasons?
Some have described that as ourworst fear is to become
vulnerable, to open ourselves upto others, even to get down
(11:51):
that path, that journey ofsomeone else knowing us.
I'm thinking, for example, youthink about a husband and a wife
, one of the greatestopportunities that exists on
earth to be fully known andfully loved by someone.
I think one of the greatestfears is that you will go down
this path of being fully knownby your spouse and yet they just
(12:11):
wind up leaving you orrejecting you.
That leaves people completelyin shambles.
Yeah, with what you were saying, I think the distinction can be
made, but they're part of thesame journey.
Is that a good way to say it?
Like, being fully known andfully loved go in tandem in the
same journey, but it is possibleto make a distinction.
Does that sound right?
Allan Stanford (12:31):
I think what you're putting your finger on,
though, is the fear that we feelthat if we were fully known, we
would be exposed as not good,we would be found to be unworthy
of being loved.
The problem is when you assignthe authority to adjudicate on
that question to someone asundeserving of that authority as
(12:53):
your spouse, who is justanother boy or girl struggling
with their own insecurities, andyou're assuming that they one
really do know you fully, whichI don't think that any piece.
I mean, I've been married for16 years and I couldn't possibly
make that claim about my wife.
Yeah, the fear is that if shefully knew me or like, let's say
(13:17):
, that she did turn away from meand left me yeah, it would be
tempting to read into that that,see, she fully knew me and
rejected me.
I'm worthless, but that'sassigning a lot of authoritative
power to her that is notappropriate.
Kolton Thomas (13:29):
Yeah, and so we have to turn this conversation
towards God.
If we're going to be fullyknown and yet rejected and not
fully loved, I think God is theone that we fear in this
equation then right, and why isthat such a big fear for so many
people, even though there'ssuch a clear message of grace
that rings true in the Bible?
And then, ultimately, like, howdoes this tie back to changing
(13:51):
our behaviors and leading us tolook at pornography, acting out
on unwanted sexual behaviors?
Allan Stanford (13:58):
Yeah, I think it .
You're raising a Really seriousconundrum.
That, I think, has this, allyou know, pretty trapped.
I mean that that's that'sexactly the thing.
I'm a.
You know CS Lewis said that thegates of heller lock from the
inside Because it is to be inhell is to close yourself off to
(14:18):
being loved out of fear thatyou won't be, or out of To be
loved is a very uncontrolledexperience, like that's just
what love is.
To have other who isFundamentally other than you,
absolutely other, look on youkindly and desire you and want
to will your good, is somethingthat you necessarily can't
(14:39):
control.
If you could control theywouldn't really totally be other
right, it's a like grown-up,vulnerable love is a very out of
control, very scary In riskyproposition and so we close
ourselves off.
We try and control as many ofthe variables as we can to, you
know, not put ourselves at themercy of being loved.
(15:00):
We don't like yeah resist thatscary, and we desperately need
it, and so we wrap ourselves upin Looking super successful and,
you know, in business, or insports, or or putting on, or
being good at resisting allthose things you know being
counterculture or whatever.
You know not letting anybodyget above me in any way.
(15:22):
That makes me feel like I'm attheir mercy, which is, of course
, where I would experience beingloved by someone who was the
very least.
But we just all that.
We insulate ourselves from allthat, and then, in the secret of
our bathrooms and bedrooms, weWatch pornography and fantasize
about what it would be like,though, if somebody who wanted
(15:46):
to Really was let in and reallydid love me and when wanted to
be with me and wanted me to lovethem.
Kolton Thomas (15:54):
You know, it's stuck in the middle, and that's
really what hell is, I thinkyeah, well, that's so
interesting because what you'resaying essentially is that
pursuing pornography is like aslice of hell on earth, because
essentially what you're doing isyou are foregoing the risk of
being known and being vulnerablebecause you're afraid of it,
and you know you're describingthat.
(16:15):
Perhaps that's what hell islike it's for people who are
afraid of being fully known.
They don't want to take therisk to be loved by God and to
be loved by others, and so weall say that porn is bad, and
Christian men feel that.
But I think it's so importantto flesh out why, because so
often, without that fullunderstanding of why, our
(16:38):
motivation or our clarity justisn't quite there, and I think
sometimes I can make thedifference between being able to
say no and stop looking at itor not.
Allan Stanford (16:47):
Well and this is a critique of the Christian
thing, I think, in its modernexpression, but I think really
it has been a problem forhundreds of years is this Very
juvenile finger pointing at thething that is obviously bad,
that everybody knows is likethat.
There's nothing holy about this, but then condemning that as
(17:08):
the problem itself and likepriding ourselves in our ability
to Put our finger on the thingthat's not good, you know.
It's like oh, you're doing thenot good thing, you're, you're
one of those, you're on.
That like proves that you're onthe other side of the line.
You know everybody else is.
You know, pretend to have itall together and you know it's
really.
(17:28):
I think it's a stupid andchildish way of thinking about
pornography.
Yes, there is plenty of evil inpornography, certainly in the
industry itself, in sextrafficking, and of course, none
of us who are using pornographyReally know the extent to which
that woman or man is willinglyparticipating in what's
happening.
We can have all kinds oflegislation in place, we can
(17:50):
have all kinds of agreements andeverything you know in place,
but at the end of the day, whenyou're looking at that video,
you don't really know.
Kolton Thomas (17:56):
Yeah, that person you don't know well, I mean,
that's not just a hypothesisanymore.
That's proven by countlesstestimonials that have come out
from people who have left theindustry.
Especially in recent years,we're seeing an explosion of
different former porn starscoming out and sharing their
full story of how they werecoerced.
(18:16):
You know, a lot of casestricked or, at the very least,
taken advantage of for theirvulnerability Happens all the
time, and the biggest and thisisn't just like one off people
who you know, no one knows aboutin the industry these are some
of the biggest born stars thathave come out and shared these
stories, and so it's not like aquestion, it's not a hypothesis.
(18:38):
So, yeah, the evil in theindustry, I think, is very
evident.
Allan Stanford (18:43):
I'm gonna say absolutely, and I'm gonna say
two unpopular things about that.
Okay, one is this is going tooffend people left of this issue
potentially in saying thatanybody who is married has been
married.
Any man who has been married.
I think this is my bias.
Two woman knows her has workedhard at developing a robust and
(19:06):
healthy sexual life with her,and or any man who has had a
daughter knows intuitively andpowerfully that the life of this
worker is a wounded.
It requires a person to beoperating from a wounded state.
Even people that claim like no,I'm doing this absolutely of my
own accord.
(19:27):
There's something hurt beingcarried out in that.
That's my bias.
But, as you pointed out,there's plenty of reason to
believe that that is a subset ofsex workers or people who
really are doing this becausethey want to, and there's lots
of things that we do that wewant to do that is not coming
from a Nobody's making us do it,but we're hurting ourselves
(19:47):
anyway.
So I'll say that.
But the other thing I'll say isthat about the sex trafficking
and abuses and all the horribleevil that's happening behind the
screen.
While that is sometimessomething that helps awareness
of that is sometimes somethingthat helps people who are
struggling with porn addictionresist and begin to dismantle
(20:08):
some of their arousal templatewith it, it really is not a
useful awareness when it comesto understanding the very
personal question of why I'mdrawn to porn.
It's a background question.
There's nothing to do with whya man is drawn to porn.
What he's sorting out thereit's one more reason.
(20:28):
That's a unhelpful way to sortthose problems out, but it has
nothing to do with sorting thoseproblems out.
Yeah, and so it's notparticularly helpful in therapy,
except in piling on shame andmaking it more confusing and
more painful.
Kolton Thomas (20:41):
Yeah, that makes sense, and so I think that we
should really steer the rest ofthis podcast towards getting to
the underlying reasons of why westruggle with porn and also
what to do about it.
What can men do about it?
So how do men go on thatjourney, and what does that
journey look like to understandwhy they're using it?
Allan Stanford (20:59):
That's a good question and I think that the
best programs for helping peoplesteer away from porn, for
people overcome or recover fromhaving a dependent relationship
with pornography programs likeyour program and, to a large
extent, programs like the CSATprogram that we talked about
earlier is they're helpful inwalking alongside these men and
(21:22):
women on their journey ofunderstanding what that part of
them that is drawn towards pornis really looking for, what it's
sorting out.
We're all sorting something outall the time, and when we have
something that has power in ourlives that we can't help coming
back to them, those features ofour lives.
More than any other life is anarena where something important
(21:42):
is being sorted out, and if wejust paint it with broad strokes
and say, well, you're just anaddict, or it's just bad, or
you're just out of control, oryou're immature, or you're a
pervert or whatever, it's justtotally unhelpful.
It has never helped anybodyunderstand themselves better.
So, understanding yourself iscritical.
Understanding what is thissexual scenario that I keep
(22:03):
coming back to has power for me.
There's a wound that it'sspeaking to, and I think the
fact that it has powerdemonstrates that there's a
wound underneath it.
Does that make sense?
Kolton Thomas (22:13):
Yeah, it does, and what you're saying is that
this is an opportunity to knowoneself.
The opportunity to grow inself-awareness and to examine
yourself perhaps deeper than youever have before and I think
we've talked about this on thepodcast too is a lot of times.
That requires going back toyour childhood and examining
(22:34):
ways that you were wounded.
Right and we talked about thatrecently too is how oftentimes
we're acting out based on priorwounding and so we live with
this woundedness of, this fearthat we can't be our authentic
self.
Could you speak more into that?
Allan Stanford (22:50):
Well, again, I think it speaks to this
desperate desire to be loved,and part of the reason I think
it's so broad sweeping in itsoccurrence I mean, it seems like
just about everybody in everyculture is dealing with this on
some level, and I think part ofthe explanation for that is just
how blank the canvas is, Ithink, in that you can project
(23:11):
almost anything you want onto it, and so it's very easily
transferred from person toperson.
Two people watching the samevideo can be experiencing
something very different, andthat's just across the same
video.
But never mind all the genresof porn and all that, if you
know what I mean.
Kolton Thomas (23:26):
Like yeah again.
Allan Stanford (23:27):
I think it just comes back to how powerful sex
is and how easy it is to projectyour fantasies onto what you're
watching.
Kolton Thomas (23:35):
Yeah, I mean, and fantasies are powerful.
I often talk about howimagination is one of the
greatest gifts that God gave usthis ability to envision a
better future, to buildsomething of our lives and to
leave a legacy, keeping the endof our lives in mind and working
towards that.
These are just amazing thingsabout imagination.
But it's so powerful and thereis a fantasy that will engage
(23:59):
our imagination that pornographyhijacks, it utilizes, and, like
you said, there is a fantasy.
There's a different genre ofporn for just about anything you
can think of now, and thatwould not be so if it was not so
lucrative and if it did notspeak something of man's desire.
And so let's talk about acouple of examples.
(24:22):
What does it look like forsomeone to use porn in order to
fulfill the story that they'retelling them about themselves,
or to try to heal a certainwoundedness?
What does that look like?
Allan Stanford (24:33):
Well, I think your question sort of
demonstrates that porn somethingyou said earlier like that is
what it's like to be in hell,and I think that's true from a
certain perspective.
But I think more to the pointis that porn is a window out of
hell.
That, if to be in hell is whatwe're talking about earlier,
where it's this experience ofbeing trapped behind your own
(24:55):
desperation not to be vulnerable, your own determination not to
be vulnerable but alsodesperately longing to be loved,
then porn is like a littleporthole on the side of that.
It's warped and it's skewed,but you're looking at and
wishing you weren't trapped inhell and fantasizing about what
it would be like to be in thisfree relationship with somebody
(25:15):
who just wanted to have sex withyou.
So that's it on a high level.
But I think you asked thequestion what does it look like
to be looking at porn from thiswounded place?
And I think it looks likeanybody watching porn.
I mean, I think you can take anexample of like one genre of
porn, be approaching it wherethere is somebody who clearly
(25:37):
has power over somebody else andis like dominating somebody and
fantasizing about that is for alot of the guys that I've
worked with is them playing out.
There's a childhood experiencethat they have of being in a
totally powerless posture andthey are fantasizing about one
of two things.
(25:57):
They're either fantasizingabout being the powerless person
and succeeding in pleasuringthe person who's powerful and in
that way, securing theirposition in the relationship,
like they're rehearsing theirtrauma in that regard, or
replaying it.
You know, over and over traumarepetition, we call it, and it's
like the more they can do that,the more they satisfy their
(26:20):
oppressor in that regard, andthere's an arousing component to
that for them that makes themfeel safe and comforted.
Or they're fantasizing aboutbeing the person in the more
powerful position and they'rewinning back.
They are rehearsing the mirror,as it were, that they're never
going to get beat and thatthey're always going to win,
that they're always going to beon top and that they're going to
get theirs and nobody's goingto stop them.
(26:41):
And they fantasize in a waythat does do certainly ugly
characters throughout history.
You might imagine Hitler, youknow, tossing and turning his
bed at night like he's not goingto get beat.
These, you know, these peopleare not going to.
He's going to overpowereverybody.
So that's always coming from avery hurt and run over that
nobody is doing that coolly andlike a twirling the mustache and
(27:05):
you know thinking, you knowlike, oh, this would be a good
way to hurt other people.
That's always coming from adeeply hurt place.
Does that make sense?
So that's one of the ways that,like porn, it can be an arena
where we're sorting somethingout.
And that's an extreme example,and you know I, a lot of people,
I say it's extreme, I mean alot of people experience that,
note, that is, if they're braveenough to admit that to
(27:25):
themselves and to a therapistthat they can trust.
But the vast majority of peoplewho are struggling with an
addiction with porn probably arenot moving in that direction.
It's something less toxic, youknow, but it's a good example
nonetheless of like that there'ssomething being sorted out even
in the most benign and gentleand apparently consensual, you
(27:47):
know, pornographic scenarios.
Kolton Thomas (27:49):
Yeah, and so you got this woundedness.
You're bleeding from differentinsecurities from your past that
you've never really faced, orfears, or whatever it is.
You're bleeding and you slapthis really like old, infected
band-aid on it.
That's porn, basically, andthat sense porn is a solution.
It's a bad one, but you know,guys, if you're out there and
(28:10):
you feel like, well, you're justwatching porn, just for the
high of it and that's all thereis to it, don't be naive.
Don't be naive to think thatthere's not a lot more going on
than that.
You know because, again, youknow, alan, you could probably
speak to this, but I know, I'veseen it time and time again
everyone who's struggling withthis has a story and there are
(28:31):
always more things, more layersunderneath, more connections,
like a web of connections thatcan be made that help people
understand why they're usingsomething like pornography.
Because, like you said, porn ispowerful.
You're not using this powerfulthing for nothing, you know,
especially if you've toldyourself you want to quit but
you can't.
There's a reason for that, youknow.
Allan Stanford (28:52):
Well, what I would add to that, I think, is
or maybe even refine, is thatsex is powerful.
Porn is only as powerful asyour wounding is.
There are lots of people forwhom porn has no power.
There's no, there's nothingintriguing about it, you know,
and they don't even understandhow porn can have power.
It's just like, it just feelscreepy, like you're watching
(29:13):
other people have sex, you know.
Yeah, that should tell ussomething, right?
Well, and that can, becausethere can be power in that as
well.
I mean, that's, you know, likeif you're afraid of it, that's
like, maybe, if not being ableto look away is addicted, not
being able to hold on toyourself in the presence of it
might be anorexic, you know, Idon't know, but I think what is
(29:36):
important is like how, again,how powerful this is.
Does that make sense?
Kolton Thomas (29:40):
Yeah, it does.
Yeah, that's insightful.
So I know we've only got a fewminutes left, so ending this.
If porn is not the way we needto be working out our stories,
what is the way that we could beworking out our stories Like
what does the path to healinglook like?
Allan Stanford (29:54):
I think the path to healing.
It could look like a lot ofthings for a lot of people, but
I think for everybody it's goingto contain these ingredients.
It's going to containunderstanding yourself.
It's going to contain owningfor yourself the responsibility
to know and love yourself in theway you're hoping this other
adult is going to show up andgive you permission to know and
(30:15):
love.
Does that make sense?
Like we're all in ourwoundedness waiting for this mom
or dad to show up and scoop usup and tell us we're okay?
Growing up is, and healing is,a process of owning the
responsibility for that taskourselves.
When we do that, sex becomes apowerful tool for connecting
with and knowing another person,rather than being rescued or
(30:38):
healed in our wounding oranything like that.
Those things are always goingto get in the way and distract
sex from what its purpose reallyis.
So, yeah, it's going to includethose things knowing yourself,
having compassion for yourselfand beginning to take a role of
authority in your own internalworld.
That is loving andunderstanding.
Kolton Thomas (30:57):
Awesome.
Those are really good insights.
More specifically, what doesthat look like?
What steps can someone take togo on this journey and know
themselves better, and whatencouragement can you offer guys
who are really feeling stuck orstruggling with this?
Allan Stanford (31:13):
Stop being frustrated with yourself.
That's not helping.
See your addiction with porn inthe same way you see your
addiction with alcohol or withanything else, whatever culture
or your religious drama oranything else tells you about
how disgusting that is or howworthless you are because that's
happening.
Push back at all that andunderstand that something very
(31:35):
sweet and tender and honest ishappening in that process.
And so, I think, not beingfrustrated with yourself and
instead being deeply curiousabout yourself and finding help.
Finding somebody in your lifethat is and I don't say help in
a way that because you'rehelpless and you can't do it on
your own, I'm saying that youdon't have to, you don't have to
(31:57):
do it by yourself and findingsomebody who is not going to be
the adult that pulls you out ofthe water, but it's going to be
somebody who swims next to youwhile you're sorting this out.
I think that can be a therapist.
In some cases that can be apastor who's particularly wise
and experienced.
Look for a therapist in yourarea.
I think that's a tremendousfirst step, and as soon as
(32:19):
somebody is trying to offer youa controlling solution, trading
one mistress for another isn'tgoing to help.
If somebody is offering you asolution that sounds unduly
controlling or shaming.
Walk away, find somebody else.
Kolton Thomas (32:34):
That's not going to help.
That's so good, alan man.
Thank you so much for your timesharing your wisdom with us on
the podcast.
I know you've got to go here.
Loved having you as a guest man.
We've got to have you back on,thanks for having me Talk about
some of these things even more.
I think there's so many topicswe hit on.
We could go in more detail, soanyways, yeah, man, we will talk
soon.
We'll see you around.
Allan Stanford (32:52):
Sounds great, thank you.
Kolton Thomas (32:54):
All right, guys.
Well, that's all we've got fortoday.
Thanks for tuning in to anotherepisode, man.
It almost seems like thesecounselors and therapists know
what they're talking about.
Man, just Alan, is so good atgetting to the heart of the
issue, at really going deeperthan I think most people could,
at diagnosing this, taking thosesurgical tools and helping us
get to the bottom.
(33:14):
Of course, in a podcast likethis, we're not able to get to
the bottom of every singleperson's unique story, because
you've got to have some helpthat's custom, tailored to you,
and so that's where, like I saidat the beginning of the episode
, don't be afraid to seek thathelp, whether that's an
in-person therapist near you ora community like ours that
reclaimed in a program where youcan get that individual,
(33:37):
personalized help that you needto move forward, get unstuck and
live porn free.
Y'all have a wonderful day.
We'll see you in the nextepisode coming very soon.
Until then, thank you forlistening to the Reclaimed
Recovery Podcast.
If you enjoyed listening totoday's interview, you can help
me move mountains by taking acouple minutes of your time and
(33:59):
supporting the podcast.
There's a couple of key waysyou can do that.
One is really easy you canleave a review for the podcast.
A lot of times, when it comesto reviews, people tend to take
time to leave negative ones, butnot positive ones, but you can
help change that and leave apositive review for this podcast
if it's making a difference inyour life.
The second thing you can do isyou can contribute financially
(34:20):
and you can help me in creatingmore high quality,
well-researched content andinterviews.
So you can find a link tosupport us through PayPal or
Patreon in the show notes.
Thanks so much, guys you rock.
Get out there, be resilient,live porn free.
We'll see you next time.
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