September 6, 2023 • 30 mins
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Imagine a world where you're confident in yourself, free from the shackles of shame and guilt associated with unwanted pornography use. A world where understanding your attachments can lead to a healthier, more fulfilling life. Join me, Kolton Thomas, as I sit down with one of my mentors, Allan Stanford, a Certified Sex Addiction Therapist. As we journey together, we explore Allan's unique insights on the shame surrounding pornography use, the power of understanding attachment styles, and the transformational strategies to rewire the brain.
Let's face it, we all have some form of attachment wounding that pushes us towards fantasies of being accepted without expectations. As we brave this conversation, my mentor Allan unveils the hidden complexities of unhealthy attachments and their profound impact on our relationships. We talk about the dance of qualifying for attachment, the prevalence of humiliation in certain pornography genres, and the stark reality of how these wounds can lead to compulsive behaviors. The beauty of this discussion is not just in its raw honesty, but in its ability to spark self-awareness and drive change.
As we venture further into the labyrinth of our attachment wounds, we discuss the allure of darker fantasies, why pornography can be a tempting crutch during the healing journey, and the possibility of using fantasies as exposure therapy. But, don't fret! This journey isn't all gloom and doom. We conclude by shedding light on hope, healing, and overcoming pornography addiction. With courage, accountability, prayer, and spiritual guidance, fear can be replaced with healing. Join us for this enlightening conversation and let's rewrite your narrative together.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kolton Thomas (00:00):
Welcome to the Reclaimed and Unashamed podcast.
We are helping men to rewiretheir brains and overcome the
shame that often surroundsunwanted pornography use.
I'm your host, Kolton Thomas,and you're listening to episode
17 with guest Allan Stanford.
Now, Alan is a trainedcounselor.
He has gotten his CSAPcertification in the past, which
(00:21):
stands for Certified SexAddiction Therapist, and he
brings a lot of experience andunique perspective to this
interview, so I've been reallyexcited to release this one.
I will say he is a father offive kids, and so you parents
will understand this, but hedidn't have room in the house to
record this episode, so heactually went outside.
But I actually kind of like thenature sounds in the background
(00:43):
of this episode.
I hope you do too.
You can just kind of close youreyes and imagine that you're
right there having thisconversation with us on Alan's
back porch.
So, anyways, let's get startedand let's dive right in.
Alan, welcome so much.
I'm so glad you could be on theReclaim podcast today.
Allan Stanford (00:57):
Hey, thanks for inviting me, man.
Kolton Thomas (00:58):
Yeah, man Alan is a mentor of mine.
He's a therapist in thecommunity here, where I'm from.
We've had a lot ofconversations about therapy.
We're also from the same almamater.
Why don't you start by justlike telling us a little bit
about you, a little bit aboutyour background and journey in
therapy as a counselor?
Allan Stanford (01:13):
Yeah, sure I.
So, as you said, I got mymaster's degree at John Brown
University.
I started that at UCA here inConway, about an hour from here.
But you know, life iscomplicated and we had kids and
that derailed that part of mycareer for a while.
So I actually worked in IT for11 years as a database architect
Sort of self-taught slash.
(01:36):
People took me under their wingand taught me a lot of great
things.
So that's how I family for thefirst decade.
And then I got around to goingback to grad school and finish
that up.
So at the time when I finishedat John Brown, there was I want
to say that there were twocertified sex addiction
(01:57):
therapists in the Littlerockarea and maybe four statewide.
There's numbers not gonna beexactly right, but that's, it's
close to that.
So one of my professors, or twoof my professors, actually
really encouraged me to considerthat, just because it's
important.
You know, a lot of times whenyou're finishing grad school and
you're trying to establishyourself in a market to have
some kind of focus, so thatyou're not just like a broad
(02:22):
array but if you kind ofspecialize in something you get
more attention.
And so one of my professors wasthat other therapist in
Littlerock who was CSA trainedand the other professor was
about to start that, and soactually I started it with that
professor Started that, thatcertification process.
It's a long process.
That fastest you can do it isin about a year and a half, but
for a lot of people it takeslonger than that.
Kolton Thomas (02:43):
Yeah, so really quickly, that training is called
CSAT and it stands forCertified Sex Addiction
Therapist.
And yeah, what you're saying isthat I've heard that before
that that's a very long training, that's very thorough, it's
very detailed, and so youdecided to specialize yourself
by getting that training rightout of school.
Allan Stanford (03:03):
I did, yeah, so I did that and that sort of
opened up a lot of work I wasdoing with people in the
community, you know, aroundcertainly around pornography,
but also around like serialaffairs.
Kolton Thomas (03:15):
So you do.
You see the work that you do tohelp men with pornography and
sex addiction as more of a partof a larger system that we're
trying to bring healing intotheir lives, because you're
trying to help heal marriagesand relationships.
But now you're able to use thatCSAT training and your
experience in that area as acrucial part of that system to
(03:35):
bring about the healing.
Is that a good way of saying it?
Allan Stanford (03:38):
Yeah, I think everybody knows this intuitively
if they thought very hard aboutthe subject.
Compulsive pornography use orother forms of sex addiction is
a pathology or a woundednessrelated to allowing someone else
in to my deepest self, like youknow, in in the closest
possible way.
That is a desperately neededexperience as human beings and
(04:01):
especially depending on what oursort of attachment wounding is.
You know from childhood, it's apowerful experience to have
somebody come all the way in andwant my good right and to move
towards what is good and whatfeels good.
For me.
It feels like being loved andso, that being the case, it has
(04:22):
implications for every otheraspect of our lives, but
especially our partnerships, ourmarriages, as we are learning
how to genuinely let someoneinto that space.
Instead of in a way thatdoesn't really require us to
take the risk of vulnerability,it allows us to kind of short
circuit the process and and letsomebody in an artificial way
(04:42):
because we don't believe we canhave access to that in an
authentic way.
So starting to unlearn that andlet somebody in in in the
deepest possible ways isconnected to pornography
difficulties.
Or, 130 years ago, gk Chestertonsaid every man that knocks on
the door of a brothel is lookingfor God.
Yeah, I mean, that's what itfinally boils down to.
(05:02):
It's.
It's finally this the man whowrestles with pornography or
with compulsive sex is differentthan anybody else that has ever
lived.
It is the fundamental corehuman dilemma am I good enough,
is love for me, and do I qualifyfor connection and attachment?
Kolton Thomas (05:22):
Right, I think we're getting really quickly to
some of the really good truthshere and I'm excited about where
this can go from here.
So we're kind of laying afoundation of you know the level
of depth that we should bethinking about this issue.
Earlier you mentioned something.
You mentioned attachment styles.
You said depending on yourattachment style, and then you
kind of went on.
Could you explain how that is acrucial part to understand when
(05:46):
it comes to men?
Trying to understand like, whatis this is driving my sexual
behaviors?
Allan Stanford (05:51):
Yeah, I think what I said was attachment
wounding and the phraseattachment style is a sort of
quasi clinical pop culture wordthat really it refers to how
your attachment wounding hasleft you.
It's like the state that yourattachment trauma has left you
in is what's popularly calledyour attachment style.
(06:12):
It's not my favorite language,because calling it stylistic
makes it seem like it's just theway I do things or something,
or like it's a benign in thatregard that you could put it
down and take up another styleif you liked, and it's just
simply isn't that way.
It really should be calledsomething like attachment
scarring.
But yeah, it's what you believeis required of you to do or not
(06:36):
.
Do or be or not be in order toqualify for Connection with
another person.
It's the playbook or the rulesby which you believe In order to
survive being connected toanother person.
This, these are the things thathave to be true and the things
that have to be untrue in orderfor that to work.
Kolton Thomas (06:55):
Mm-hmm, and different people have different
playbooks for what needs to betrue.
Yeah, so what we're saying isthat it shouldn't be that way.
Allan Stanford (07:03):
That's right.
Yeah, I mean like the healedway to be is To be securely
attached to yourself, so like ifyou, you know, if you were to
save somebody.
You know Johnny's a nice guy.
I was a little insecure.
What you're communicating is heneeds a lot of like reassurance
, and it seems like he's playingto the crowd a lot, or that
he's Like constantly checking inwith you to find out if he's
(07:25):
okay.
He doesn't know he's okay,right, and so that's the longer
script is to not be that way, isto be securely attached to
yourself, to know that it's okay.
Be Allen, and that that's true.
Because it's true, Not becauseI'm good enough or because I'm
competent or but because I'm me.
That's the truth.
I'm comfortable in my own skin,right?
(07:46):
Yeah, that's really helpfulexplanation.
Kolton Thomas (07:49):
So what are some examples of these unhealthy
attachments?
These play, these unhealthyplaybooks that we develop, that
are basically set up for us?
Allan Stanford (07:58):
to fail.
Yeah, so well, I was gonna say,was the final part of that is
is that, if that were true aboutme, I was perfectly securely
attached to myself.
I Now feel nothing or little interms of anxiety or
Self-filtering or or selfcensorship when it comes to
meeting another person andbeginning a relationship with
(08:18):
them.
I'm perfectly okay for them tosee my whole self because I'm
not preoccupied with how I'mcoming off in that moment.
I'm now perfectly open to thisother person and so I can see
them better than I could if Iwere less secure.
So, becoming the or okay youare with yourself, the closer
you can get to another person.
So if the other person is doingthe same, that's a secure
(08:39):
relationship.
Does that make sense?
Kolton Thomas (08:42):
Yes, it does.
Allan Stanford (08:43):
But then to take it to where you were going next
.
You know it's like so what?
If it's not that way, how doesit inform the way we interact?
And it's this stupid dance thatwe do that we think we have to
do because it's not okay to beme.
This other person needs me tofulfill some expectation.
The only way I get to be here,get to dance, is if I meet that
expectation.
Well, and I think maybe you'regonna Next about what?
(09:06):
There's some of those dance.
Kolton Thomas (09:07):
Yeah.
Some of the stupid dances thatwe do that get us into trouble
with pornography and how does itlink like specific examples
like how does this link toSexual behaviors?
Allan Stanford (09:17):
I think I would say in one sense it has very
little to do with our compulsivesexual behavior, especially as
it relates to pornography.
With some exceptions, I thinkmost people go to pornography
Because they naturally into it.
How dysfunctional theirattachment wounding is, and how
painful and stupid the role thatthey're forced to play in order
(09:39):
to qualify for attachment Isfor them.
How painful that is.
And so we fantasize about whatif that weren't true.
What if I could just have sexwith a woman and just be
accepted the way that I am, andthat I could just like be caught
up in this Rapturous experiencewith her with, and not be
encumbered by all my wounding?
That leaves me awkward.
And still, you know, severewounding in terms of attachment
(10:03):
still shows up sometimes, andit's in more extreme stuff I
like I don't want to use theword extreme just because it
makes it sound like unusual.
It's not unusual at all, butlike if you think of a porn
genre where the fantasy beingset up is that one person is
being humiliated.
This is like another man havingsex with another man's wife in
(10:28):
front of him, or something likethat the viewer is then free to
Move from person to person withwhoever they want to identify
with in the moment, you know.
But there's pretty intenseattachment wounding at play in
that that says, if I'mfantasizing about being the man
who's being humiliated, that I.
There's this like deep lessonfor me that informs me that the
(10:52):
way I qualify for attachment isby going belly up and letting
other people humiliate me andthat's like that is how they can
gain access to a reallyintimate side of me.
And this is like this is how Iqualify for this arrangement is
that I'm the one beinghumiliated.
It's really sad if you thinkabout it in terms and it's
really painful, but it's theonly way they know how to Gain
(11:14):
access to that really vulnerableplace is to be overpowered in
that way.
So then you start to get intolike domination, mission stuff
that that stuff is playing out.
The same thing there's.
There's a fantasy being playedout that is especially for the
Dom person is fantasizing aboutwhat it's like to win and to get
to that very vulnerable andsexual part of themselves
(11:36):
without being beaten or withoutbeing threatened in any way by
so.
So much to the extreme, in fact, that that they are dominating
the other person and it startedto get into like really kind of
pathological Sexual behaviors.
Especially if you rest in thatin real life you know where
you're like raping and hurtingpeople is a.
I mean the people who are doingthat you don't have your like
(11:57):
neurological problems areworking something out.
I mean they're they're workingout their own feeling dominated
and oppressed and they're like,in some cases, living out what
it's like to To get finally towhat's good for them without
having to be broken by somebodyelse, even if that requires
breaking somebody else.
Does that make sense?
Kolton Thomas (12:16):
Yeah, it's a kind of yeah, so you know, someone
has developed a story aboutthemselves, this narrative, that
is very insecure, meaning thatthey cannot exist and they
cannot develop meaningfulrelationships with people
because of XYZ.
That they've kind of put intheir own way, this playbook
they've made, that they'retrying to play by, but that is
(12:38):
ultimately really hurting them.
You know, we look at all thedifferent genres of pornography
and different kinds of fantasiesand they seem endless.
You know people say there's afantasy for literally everything
.
But what you're saying isthat's definitely not accidental
.
People in the types offantasies that they gravitate to
you are actually workingsomething out in their story in
(13:00):
order to try to feel secure.
Right, it's an attempt.
It's an attempt to feelaccepted, authentic and secure
in who they are.
Allan Stanford (13:08):
It's also an attempt at what we call trauma
renegotiation.
What's that?
Where you go back to a painfulsituation where you were
disempowered or hurt or that youin one way or another and you
try and experience itdifferently, or like you try to
win instead of losing, or you'regoing back to a painful event
(13:29):
to experience again because youthink it's the only way you know
how to get there.
Like this ties into some oflike battered wife syndrome, you
know stuff where people keep,keep going back to this really
hurtful experience.
It's over and over and overagain and part of it is, for a
lot of people, a really naturalcore desire to go back in hopes
that they're going to experienceit differently this time.
(13:50):
Maybe if I could do it betterthis time, maybe he wouldn't hit
me or you know yeah.
Kolton Thomas (13:55):
So how does pornography, for example?
Why is that so tempting forpeople?
Why does it give them anopportunity to try to experience
things differently?
Allan Stanford (14:05):
Yeah, it's fantasy, so it's safe.
You can turn it off wheneveryou want to.
You're not exposed in any way,nobody can see you and you're
sort of fly on the wall.
You know, or depending on thetype of porn and how it's set up
, you're intended to imagineyourself as one of the partners,
right?
(14:25):
Yeah, so it's like behindcurtains and closed doors, going
back to these really tenderplaces and processing that your
sort of zip and out.
It's just that it's a trap thatdoesn't ever.
It never bears fruit.
It isn't actually helping youprocess anything because it
isn't real relationship.
More often than not, dependingon how you're approaching it,
(14:47):
you're just it's just traumarepetition.
You're not renegotiatinganything, you're just
experiencing it the same wayover and over again.
Yeah, A traversal thing that Iwould say is that I think that
sometimes people in theirhealing journey and the 12 step
guys are going to hate this Atsome point in your journey.
I think it does make sensesometimes to revisit that stuff
(15:12):
and if you're doing it through alens of curiosity about
yourself and you're trying tounderstand what's happening in
me as I'm watching this, doing adeep dive, I have seen that be
very different times.
I know that's interesting.
Kolton Thomas (15:25):
Yeah, I think one reason why I think one argument
for why men would not want torevisit it in order to heal is
because we kind of believe thatby watching it you're not just a
fly in the wall, You're sort ofactively participating or kind
of shaping.
It's shaping your heart, likeJesus talks about.
The things that you seeultimately get into the body and
(15:49):
into the heart and affect youthat way.
But I wonder if, in a way, kindof what you're talking about is
like exposure therapy, likewell, there's something that you
really really fear.
If you go into that thing withbravery and courage, you might
be able to come out with betteroutcomes.
I do remember reading a book.
It's called how to Kill a Lion.
There's many, many books onovercoming pornography, but I
(16:12):
remember the author was acounselor and he talked about
watching some old video.
I don't think it wasn't likehardcore pornography, but it was
something that when he wasyounger really sort of triggered
him and set him off on hisjourney of unwanted sexual
behavior.
And I think he sat down andrewatched it with his wife and
processed it with her, or maybethat is kind of an example of
(16:35):
what you're talking about.
Allan Stanford (16:37):
It is.
Yeah, it's touching on what I'mtalking about for sure.
Yeah, I would say Lettingthings into your heart.
No, if you get to get a faithApproach to that, I mean you'd
have to say about Christ thathe's fearless.
It's simply is untrue thatChrist would ever turn away and
blush at something that he saw.
He has command over his ownheart and he's not indulging
anything like you know.
(16:57):
Be with sinners and look rightat them and love them.
Surely the ultimate answer isisn't fear, real healing and
really overcoming it.
Even if you don't do it mustinclude a capacity to look right
at it and love the peopleinvolved.
And the most important personinvolved for men watching is the
(17:17):
little boy Standing beside themwho is sorting something out.
And if you for the you know,for the guy you're talking about
his wife being present, ifshe's strong enough to do that,
that's wonderful.
But it's an individual journey,and to be able to hold that
little boy's hand and go andlook at that thing that he's
desperate for, slash, terrifiedof, love him in the in the
(17:38):
context of that, and walk awaywith him is is critical.
I'm not everybody, I'm notsaying like hey, so what you
really should do is gofearlessly and look at porn.
Kolton Thomas (17:48):
Yeah.
So I think there's differentways to do that, you know, and I
think that, like you said, it'sprobably not for everybody, but
, for example, the environmentin the context in which they do
that is gonna be super, superimportant.
So like not telling anyone thatyou're doing that while you're
still in the middle of anintense porn addiction and then
trying to go into porn to healSounds like for most men that
(18:11):
would be a bad idea, I would say.
But, for example, in the tenweek program that we have it
reclaimed, one of the requiredactions, one of the assignments,
is that men right down some ofthe specific things they have
put in their search bars andthey kind of confront those
things.
But they're doing it in thecontext of a program where
(18:35):
they're also going to meetone-on-one with me and we're
gonna talk through those thingsand they also are going to pray
about it, pray before doing it,pray afterwards.
So you're surrounding it in aspiritual context.
You have accountability Forwhen you do it.
That's different thanrewatching anything, but it
still gets it kind of what we'retalking about.
(18:57):
It's like being willing towrite those fantasies down and
really face them, and I thinkwhat you said is really
important.
It's driving out the fearthat's there because love casts
out fear.
And Jesus was not, like you saywhat he's, not a fearful person.
He would not.
I don't think he'd be afraid ofporn and, like I said, I don't
think you'd look at porn andkind of like blush and turn away
(19:19):
and like not talk about it.
I think he would speak truthvery directly into it and see it
for exactly what it is.
And you know personally I sharewith men that you know it can
be a long journey but eventuallyI, just speaking for myself, I
can.
I can see, you know, formerporn actresses or even current
ones in front of a cameratalking about their experience
(19:41):
in the industry and things likethat and genuinely have feelings
of of empathy and sadness.
But for a lot of men, justhearing the name of a porn
actress or looking at them Couldbe a very, very triggering
action.
Allan Stanford (19:55):
That's where therapy and doing your work
comes into play, and this is whyImportant year me say it that
I'm not recommending this forjust anybody you have to develop
a certain window of tolerancefor your own triggers and your
own Culsion to be able to walkinto that fire and experience it
differently.
And that's part of the problem.
(20:16):
I think that's part of whatcreates addiction is that when
we is a kind of desperateattempt at moving back into it,
but without the equipment thatwe need and without the
understanding and therelationship with self that we
need in order to do it Safely,and so you end up just in this
feedback loop where you just getso triggered and spiraled out
in your trauma that you are Thendesperate to return to it and
(20:38):
get one more taste, you know,and like you never find freedom
that way.
So you definitely there's atime and place for that kind of
exposure and it's like it's partof a journey, but not it's not
for every part of the journey.
Yeah, you want to think that Iwant to be the kind of older men
.
A naked woman could walk intotheir office and his first
thought would be are you okay?
What's happening and like toyou know?
Kolton Thomas (20:59):
yeah to blanket or something.
Allan Stanford (21:01):
Yes, what's going on, not like being
overpowered by the fact thatthere's a naked one, like we're
perpetually 14 year old boys,you know like at some point
healing mean looks like growingup and not being so Overpowered
by the sex or nakedness.
Kolton Thomas (21:18):
Yeah, when I hear that story, like when I hear
you share that example, I justpicture, like you said,
perpetually 14 year old boys.
But also it's like we have thisConstantly craving flesh.
Why do we walk around with thisintense craving so much of the
time?
And I think it goes back to ourhearts feeling empty and us
living From this woundedness,like you're talking about this,
(21:41):
these insecure attachments, thisinsecurity to be authentic
Selfs.
So let's talk about that.
Like, how does one move awayfrom these wounded, insecure
Attachment styles and storiesthat they're trying to live by,
they're hurting them?
Like, how does one start thathealing journey?
Allan Stanford (22:01):
Well, it's super practical level.
I mean therapy, you know, is.
Yeah really helpful, yeah,gotta plug through therapists?
Kolton Thomas (22:10):
Yeah, for sure.
I.
Allan Stanford (22:11):
Yeah, I mean I'm gonna say it can't be done
without therapy, but I certainlydon't be done so much faster
with therapy If you're walkingwith somebody who has done their
work as well and and you canwalk with.
But I think, like on aphilosophical level, when you
know 30 000 foot view, it lookslike repairing those attachment
wounds from childhood, learningthese messages that you
(22:31):
unfortunately learned from momand dad or other caregivers or
at school as a youngster and youknow, like going back and
loving yourself better than that, like growing up is, I've said
I think I've said this beforebut Growing up is not a process
of replacing a child with anadult.
That's not what growing up is.
Growing up is the process oftaking the reins of
(22:53):
responsibility for that childaway from your parents and away
from away from others, where youare Ending securely attached to
you, to that little boy orlittle girl.
Does that make sense?
Kolton Thomas (23:04):
Yeah, it's where you learn how to soothe and
comfort the little boy or littlegirl inside you that tends to
take control, that has youthinking those negative thoughts
and doing those negativebehaviors.
It's your ability to Be amature enough person to
recognize when that inner child,that little boy, that little
girl, is screaming out, tryingto take control, uncomfortable,
(23:26):
sad, wounded.
It's your ability as an adult,I think, to comfort that part of
yourself and recognize.
You know those things in yourstory right.
Allan Stanford (23:36):
Absolutely and maybe most importantly, to speak
with authority, do that jobthat you are owning
responsibility for, speakingauthoritatively and not somebody
else, not not saying I love youand then turning and looking
for Some surrogate mom or dadand saying right, or like, is
(23:56):
that okay?
Or like it as this little boyqualifies.
He done what he's supposed todo to be good enough.
Kolton Thomas (24:02):
It's pushing back at that and owning the
connection to love and I thinkthat in your relationship with
yourself, with authority, yeah,that's really good and well said
and this is kind of where, youknow, our listeners on the show
have also We've heard from drEddie caperucci talked a lot
about inner child and he'swritten the book going deeper
about healing your inner child,and so this is where I kind of
(24:23):
see our podcast kind of thoseconcepts coming into play when
we're talking about the insecureattachments or the, you know,
the woundedness.
What we're talking, starting totalk about now, is that inner
child awareness and work.
Uh, that's so important.
Is that right?
And saying that is the innerchild, what we're talking about
here.
Allan Stanford (24:41):
Yeah, really important language.
It's super useful and it's it'sancient language, I would say
so.
I mean, if you look at theexample of st Peter, who's you
know, he's an easy character tolove Because he's so stupid and
he my wife tells me I reminderof Peter.
Kolton Thomas (24:59):
Man Don't say that.
I know Peter's like.
Allan Stanford (25:04):
My patronus, I'm pretty sure.
Yeah, he, he's such a a child,he's such a child in the gospels
and, uh, he, like hisrelationship with, with Jesus is
, it's so juvenile.
It's very hard to reconcilethat man, um, who said the
(25:27):
things that he said and did thebullheaded things that he did,
with the man who wrote first andsecond Peter.
I mean he they sound likedifferent people and even we're
gonna get to hear from himdirectly in acts, but he's
talked about a lot.
It's like the things that he'sdoing in acts.
It's like where did thatimmature little boy go?
And this is the great lesson ofthe, of the ascension, and why
(25:51):
Jesus didn't just stick aroundand stay and say Be here to be
the adult for everybody to tellthem what is good, that's good
and what's not good and what youknow in every little situation.
Because he wants us to grow upand that that's seen brilliantly
in Peter who, if Jesus hadstayed, he would have just
forever tugged at his garmentsand and just said what would I
(26:11):
do now?
What would I do now?
Peter has to grow up in ownresponsibility for stepping into
that role and he does so, youknow, inadequately and and, uh,
flailingly at times, but hefinds his feet though and he
gets there.
And that's to do that.
You have to take what Jesustaught him and turn that inward
and love that little boy andstand up for him as a man and
(26:33):
and grow up.
That's yeah.
Kolton Thomas (26:35):
Yeah, I mean Peter had to grow up in light of
a couple big Mistakes that hemade.
I'm thinking about when hestarted walking on the water but
sank, you know, if you don'tthink that that stuck with him,
let alone the denying Jesusthree times, I mean the Peter
that you see at Pentecost boldlyspeaking out for the gospel and
, like you said, the one thatpenned first and second.
(26:56):
Peter is someone who we see hasmatured greatly and overcome a
great deal of fear.
But if you think that thosememories, those big ways that he
failed, have left him, I thinkyou'd really be wrong.
I think he probably thoughtabout that, if not almost every
day, maybe, who knows?
Allan Stanford (27:13):
absolutely, yeah , absolutely.
And paul talks about the samejourney you know, growing up and
it all for me.
It all is Illustrated andmodeled out for us in the
trinitarian reality that at theheart of reality itself is a
father loving his son and thatas people who are made like him
(27:34):
that we have to live out thatown reality in ourselves, the
holy spirit of love that passesbetween the father and son.
That has to be true for usindividually if we're going to
have relationships with others,the way that got his relations
with others as well, which isthat it starts and I am in being
a self conscious being on, bothobserver and observed
simultaneously, and that there alook of love between my adult
(27:56):
self and my little boy self Beintegrated in the whole.
Kolton Thomas (28:00):
Alright, so that's actually the end of our
episode for today.
Shortly after that last rumbleof thunder is heard raining on
allen and so we called it.
But we actually recordedanother interview which I'm
going to release in anotherepisode, so stay tuned for that,
you know.
I do want to say that I lovethe way that episode ended, just
talking about the father's lovefor his son and how we can
(28:21):
model after that, not just forour relationship with others but
with ourselves, to be secure inourselves and in our identities
and to commit to working outour stories and any areas where
we're not secure In a healthyway.
There are healthy ways to dothat not turning to born, but
turning instead to god and tohelp from others who we can look
(28:42):
to him, we can trust.
Now I have to laugh becauseright around the time we started
dissing on peter is when thefirst rumble of thunder came and
I thought, okay, hopefullygod's not upset at this, maybe
he's affirming this, butregardless, allen was a champ
for sticking it through theweather and again, so many odds
getting this podcast episoderecorded.
(29:03):
So wherever you are listeningto this, stay safe, stay dry and
, as always, thanks forlistening to the reclaimed and
unashamed podcast.
If you enjoyed listening totoday's interview, you can help
me move mountains by taking acouple minutes of your time and
(29:24):
supporting the podcast.
There's a couple key ways youcan do that.
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(29:45):
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So you can find a link tosupport us through paypal or
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Thanks so much, guys.
You rock.
Get out there, be resilient.
Live porn free.
We'll see you next time you.
Welcome to the Reclaimed and Unashamed podcast.
We are helping men to rewiretheir brains and overcome the
shame that often surroundsunwanted pornography use.
I'm your host, Kolton Thomas,and you're listening to episode
17 with guest Allan Stanford.
Now, Alan is a trainedcounselor.
He has gotten his CSAPcertification in the past, which
(00:21):
stands for Certified SexAddiction Therapist, and he
brings a lot of experience andunique perspective to this
interview, so I've been reallyexcited to release this one.
I will say he is a father offive kids, and so you parents
will understand this, but hedidn't have room in the house to
record this episode, so heactually went outside.
But I actually kind of like thenature sounds in the background
(00:43):
of this episode.
I hope you do too.
You can just kind of close youreyes and imagine that you're
right there having thisconversation with us on Alan's
back porch.
So, anyways, let's get startedand let's dive right in.
Alan, welcome so much.
I'm so glad you could be on theReclaim podcast today.
Allan Stanford (00:57):
Hey, thanks for inviting me, man.
Kolton Thomas (00:58):
Yeah, man Alan is a mentor of mine.
He's a therapist in thecommunity here, where I'm from.
We've had a lot ofconversations about therapy.
We're also from the same almamater.
Why don't you start by justlike telling us a little bit
about you, a little bit aboutyour background and journey in
therapy as a counselor?
Allan Stanford (01:13):
Yeah, sure I.
So, as you said, I got mymaster's degree at John Brown
University.
I started that at UCA here inConway, about an hour from here.
But you know, life iscomplicated and we had kids and
that derailed that part of mycareer for a while.
So I actually worked in IT for11 years as a database architect
Sort of self-taught slash.
(01:36):
People took me under their wingand taught me a lot of great
things.
So that's how I family for thefirst decade.
And then I got around to goingback to grad school and finish
that up.
So at the time when I finishedat John Brown, there was I want
to say that there were twocertified sex addiction
(01:57):
therapists in the Littlerockarea and maybe four statewide.
There's numbers not gonna beexactly right, but that's, it's
close to that.
So one of my professors, or twoof my professors, actually
really encouraged me to considerthat, just because it's
important.
You know, a lot of times whenyou're finishing grad school and
you're trying to establishyourself in a market to have
some kind of focus, so thatyou're not just like a broad
(02:22):
array but if you kind ofspecialize in something you get
more attention.
And so one of my professors wasthat other therapist in
Littlerock who was CSA trainedand the other professor was
about to start that, and soactually I started it with that
professor Started that, thatcertification process.
It's a long process.
That fastest you can do it isin about a year and a half, but
for a lot of people it takeslonger than that.
Kolton Thomas (02:43):
Yeah, so really quickly, that training is called
CSAT and it stands forCertified Sex Addiction
Therapist.
And yeah, what you're saying isthat I've heard that before
that that's a very long training, that's very thorough, it's
very detailed, and so youdecided to specialize yourself
by getting that training rightout of school.
Allan Stanford (03:03):
I did, yeah, so I did that and that sort of
opened up a lot of work I wasdoing with people in the
community, you know, aroundcertainly around pornography,
but also around like serialaffairs.
Kolton Thomas (03:15):
So you do.
You see the work that you do tohelp men with pornography and
sex addiction as more of a partof a larger system that we're
trying to bring healing intotheir lives, because you're
trying to help heal marriagesand relationships.
But now you're able to use thatCSAT training and your
experience in that area as acrucial part of that system to
(03:35):
bring about the healing.
Is that a good way of saying it?
Allan Stanford (03:38):
Yeah, I think everybody knows this intuitively
if they thought very hard aboutthe subject.
Compulsive pornography use orother forms of sex addiction is
a pathology or a woundednessrelated to allowing someone else
in to my deepest self, like youknow, in in the closest
possible way.
That is a desperately neededexperience as human beings and
(04:01):
especially depending on what oursort of attachment wounding is.
You know from childhood, it's apowerful experience to have
somebody come all the way in andwant my good right and to move
towards what is good and whatfeels good.
For me.
It feels like being loved andso, that being the case, it has
(04:22):
implications for every otheraspect of our lives, but
especially our partnerships, ourmarriages, as we are learning
how to genuinely let someoneinto that space.
Instead of in a way thatdoesn't really require us to
take the risk of vulnerability,it allows us to kind of short
circuit the process and and letsomebody in an artificial way
(04:42):
because we don't believe we canhave access to that in an
authentic way.
So starting to unlearn that andlet somebody in in in the
deepest possible ways isconnected to pornography
difficulties.
Or, 130 years ago, gk Chestertonsaid every man that knocks on
the door of a brothel is lookingfor God.
Yeah, I mean, that's what itfinally boils down to.
(05:02):
It's.
It's finally this the man whowrestles with pornography or
with compulsive sex is differentthan anybody else that has ever
lived.
It is the fundamental corehuman dilemma am I good enough,
is love for me, and do I qualifyfor connection and attachment?
Kolton Thomas (05:22):
Right, I think we're getting really quickly to
some of the really good truthshere and I'm excited about where
this can go from here.
So we're kind of laying afoundation of you know the level
of depth that we should bethinking about this issue.
Earlier you mentioned something.
You mentioned attachment styles.
You said depending on yourattachment style, and then you
kind of went on.
Could you explain how that is acrucial part to understand when
(05:46):
it comes to men?
Trying to understand like, whatis this is driving my sexual
behaviors?
Allan Stanford (05:51):
Yeah, I think what I said was attachment
wounding and the phraseattachment style is a sort of
quasi clinical pop culture wordthat really it refers to how
your attachment wounding hasleft you.
It's like the state that yourattachment trauma has left you
in is what's popularly calledyour attachment style.
(06:12):
It's not my favorite language,because calling it stylistic
makes it seem like it's just theway I do things or something,
or like it's a benign in thatregard that you could put it
down and take up another styleif you liked, and it's just
simply isn't that way.
It really should be calledsomething like attachment
scarring.
But yeah, it's what you believeis required of you to do or not
(06:36):
.
Do or be or not be in order toqualify for Connection with
another person.
It's the playbook or the rulesby which you believe In order to
survive being connected toanother person.
This, these are the things thathave to be true and the things
that have to be untrue in orderfor that to work.
Kolton Thomas (06:55):
Mm-hmm, and different people have different
playbooks for what needs to betrue.
Yeah, so what we're saying isthat it shouldn't be that way.
Allan Stanford (07:03):
That's right.
Yeah, I mean like the healedway to be is To be securely
attached to yourself, so like ifyou, you know, if you were to
save somebody.
You know Johnny's a nice guy.
I was a little insecure.
What you're communicating is heneeds a lot of like reassurance
, and it seems like he's playingto the crowd a lot, or that
he's Like constantly checking inwith you to find out if he's
(07:25):
okay.
He doesn't know he's okay,right, and so that's the longer
script is to not be that way, isto be securely attached to
yourself, to know that it's okay.
Be Allen, and that that's true.
Because it's true, Not becauseI'm good enough or because I'm
competent or but because I'm me.
That's the truth.
I'm comfortable in my own skin,right?
(07:46):
Yeah, that's really helpfulexplanation.
Kolton Thomas (07:49):
So what are some examples of these unhealthy
attachments?
These play, these unhealthyplaybooks that we develop, that
are basically set up for us?
Allan Stanford (07:58):
to fail.
Yeah, so well, I was gonna say,was the final part of that is
is that, if that were true aboutme, I was perfectly securely
attached to myself.
I Now feel nothing or little interms of anxiety or
Self-filtering or or selfcensorship when it comes to
meeting another person andbeginning a relationship with
(08:18):
them.
I'm perfectly okay for them tosee my whole self because I'm
not preoccupied with how I'mcoming off in that moment.
I'm now perfectly open to thisother person and so I can see
them better than I could if Iwere less secure.
So, becoming the or okay youare with yourself, the closer
you can get to another person.
So if the other person is doingthe same, that's a secure
(08:39):
relationship.
Does that make sense?
Kolton Thomas (08:42):
Yes, it does.
Allan Stanford (08:43):
But then to take it to where you were going next
.
You know it's like so what?
If it's not that way, how doesit inform the way we interact?
And it's this stupid dance thatwe do that we think we have to
do because it's not okay to beme.
This other person needs me tofulfill some expectation.
The only way I get to be here,get to dance, is if I meet that
expectation.
Well, and I think maybe you'regonna Next about what?
(09:06):
There's some of those dance.
Kolton Thomas (09:07):
Yeah.
Some of the stupid dances thatwe do that get us into trouble
with pornography and how does itlink like specific examples
like how does this link toSexual behaviors?
Allan Stanford (09:17):
I think I would say in one sense it has very
little to do with our compulsivesexual behavior, especially as
it relates to pornography.
With some exceptions, I thinkmost people go to pornography
Because they naturally into it.
How dysfunctional theirattachment wounding is, and how
painful and stupid the role thatthey're forced to play in order
(09:39):
to qualify for attachment Isfor them.
How painful that is.
And so we fantasize about whatif that weren't true.
What if I could just have sexwith a woman and just be
accepted the way that I am, andthat I could just like be caught
up in this Rapturous experiencewith her with, and not be
encumbered by all my wounding?
That leaves me awkward.
And still, you know, severewounding in terms of attachment
(10:03):
still shows up sometimes, andit's in more extreme stuff I
like I don't want to use theword extreme just because it
makes it sound like unusual.
It's not unusual at all, butlike if you think of a porn
genre where the fantasy beingset up is that one person is
being humiliated.
This is like another man havingsex with another man's wife in
(10:28):
front of him, or something likethat the viewer is then free to
Move from person to person withwhoever they want to identify
with in the moment, you know.
But there's pretty intenseattachment wounding at play in
that that says, if I'mfantasizing about being the man
who's being humiliated, that I.
There's this like deep lessonfor me that informs me that the
(10:52):
way I qualify for attachment isby going belly up and letting
other people humiliate me andthat's like that is how they can
gain access to a reallyintimate side of me.
And this is like this is how Iqualify for this arrangement is
that I'm the one beinghumiliated.
It's really sad if you thinkabout it in terms and it's
really painful, but it's theonly way they know how to Gain
(11:14):
access to that really vulnerableplace is to be overpowered in
that way.
So then you start to get intolike domination, mission stuff
that that stuff is playing out.
The same thing there's.
There's a fantasy being playedout that is especially for the
Dom person is fantasizing aboutwhat it's like to win and to get
to that very vulnerable andsexual part of themselves
(11:36):
without being beaten or withoutbeing threatened in any way by
so.
So much to the extreme, in fact, that that they are dominating
the other person and it startedto get into like really kind of
pathological Sexual behaviors.
Especially if you rest in thatin real life you know where
you're like raping and hurtingpeople is a.
I mean the people who are doingthat you don't have your like
(11:57):
neurological problems areworking something out.
I mean they're they're workingout their own feeling dominated
and oppressed and they're like,in some cases, living out what
it's like to To get finally towhat's good for them without
having to be broken by somebodyelse, even if that requires
breaking somebody else.
Does that make sense?
Kolton Thomas (12:16):
Yeah, it's a kind of yeah, so you know, someone
has developed a story aboutthemselves, this narrative, that
is very insecure, meaning thatthey cannot exist and they
cannot develop meaningfulrelationships with people
because of XYZ.
That they've kind of put intheir own way, this playbook
they've made, that they'retrying to play by, but that is
(12:38):
ultimately really hurting them.
You know, we look at all thedifferent genres of pornography
and different kinds of fantasiesand they seem endless.
You know people say there's afantasy for literally everything
.
But what you're saying isthat's definitely not accidental
.
People in the types offantasies that they gravitate to
you are actually workingsomething out in their story in
(13:00):
order to try to feel secure.
Right, it's an attempt.
It's an attempt to feelaccepted, authentic and secure
in who they are.
Allan Stanford (13:08):
It's also an attempt at what we call trauma
renegotiation.
What's that?
Where you go back to a painfulsituation where you were
disempowered or hurt or that youin one way or another and you
try and experience itdifferently, or like you try to
win instead of losing, or you'regoing back to a painful event
(13:29):
to experience again because youthink it's the only way you know
how to get there.
Like this ties into some oflike battered wife syndrome, you
know stuff where people keep,keep going back to this really
hurtful experience.
It's over and over and overagain and part of it is, for a
lot of people, a really naturalcore desire to go back in hopes
that they're going to experienceit differently this time.
(13:50):
Maybe if I could do it betterthis time, maybe he wouldn't hit
me or you know yeah.
Kolton Thomas (13:55):
So how does pornography, for example?
Why is that so tempting forpeople?
Why does it give them anopportunity to try to experience
things differently?
Allan Stanford (14:05):
Yeah, it's fantasy, so it's safe.
You can turn it off wheneveryou want to.
You're not exposed in any way,nobody can see you and you're
sort of fly on the wall.
You know, or depending on thetype of porn and how it's set up
, you're intended to imagineyourself as one of the partners,
right?
(14:25):
Yeah, so it's like behindcurtains and closed doors, going
back to these really tenderplaces and processing that your
sort of zip and out.
It's just that it's a trap thatdoesn't ever.
It never bears fruit.
It isn't actually helping youprocess anything because it
isn't real relationship.
More often than not, dependingon how you're approaching it,
(14:47):
you're just it's just traumarepetition.
You're not renegotiatinganything, you're just
experiencing it the same wayover and over again.
Yeah, A traversal thing that Iwould say is that I think that
sometimes people in theirhealing journey and the 12 step
guys are going to hate this Atsome point in your journey.
I think it does make sensesometimes to revisit that stuff
(15:12):
and if you're doing it through alens of curiosity about
yourself and you're trying tounderstand what's happening in
me as I'm watching this, doing adeep dive, I have seen that be
very different times.
I know that's interesting.
Kolton Thomas (15:25):
Yeah, I think one reason why I think one argument
for why men would not want torevisit it in order to heal is
because we kind of believe thatby watching it you're not just a
fly in the wall, You're sort ofactively participating or kind
of shaping.
It's shaping your heart, likeJesus talks about.
The things that you seeultimately get into the body and
(15:49):
into the heart and affect youthat way.
But I wonder if, in a way, kindof what you're talking about is
like exposure therapy, likewell, there's something that you
really really fear.
If you go into that thing withbravery and courage, you might
be able to come out with betteroutcomes.
I do remember reading a book.
It's called how to Kill a Lion.
There's many, many books onovercoming pornography, but I
(16:12):
remember the author was acounselor and he talked about
watching some old video.
I don't think it wasn't likehardcore pornography, but it was
something that when he wasyounger really sort of triggered
him and set him off on hisjourney of unwanted sexual
behavior.
And I think he sat down andrewatched it with his wife and
processed it with her, or maybethat is kind of an example of
(16:35):
what you're talking about.
Allan Stanford (16:37):
It is.
Yeah, it's touching on what I'mtalking about for sure.
Yeah, I would say Lettingthings into your heart.
No, if you get to get a faithApproach to that, I mean you'd
have to say about Christ thathe's fearless.
It's simply is untrue thatChrist would ever turn away and
blush at something that he saw.
He has command over his ownheart and he's not indulging
anything like you know.
(16:57):
Be with sinners and look rightat them and love them.
Surely the ultimate answer isisn't fear, real healing and
really overcoming it.
Even if you don't do it mustinclude a capacity to look right
at it and love the peopleinvolved.
And the most important personinvolved for men watching is the
(17:17):
little boy Standing beside themwho is sorting something out.
And if you for the you know,for the guy you're talking about
his wife being present, ifshe's strong enough to do that,
that's wonderful.
But it's an individual journey,and to be able to hold that
little boy's hand and go andlook at that thing that he's
desperate for, slash, terrifiedof, love him in the in the
(17:38):
context of that, and walk awaywith him is is critical.
I'm not everybody, I'm notsaying like hey, so what you
really should do is gofearlessly and look at porn.
Kolton Thomas (17:48):
Yeah.
So I think there's differentways to do that, you know, and I
think that, like you said, it'sprobably not for everybody, but
, for example, the environmentin the context in which they do
that is gonna be super, superimportant.
So like not telling anyone thatyou're doing that while you're
still in the middle of anintense porn addiction and then
trying to go into porn to healSounds like for most men that
(18:11):
would be a bad idea, I would say.
But, for example, in the tenweek program that we have it
reclaimed, one of the requiredactions, one of the assignments,
is that men right down some ofthe specific things they have
put in their search bars andthey kind of confront those
things.
But they're doing it in thecontext of a program where
(18:35):
they're also going to meetone-on-one with me and we're
gonna talk through those thingsand they also are going to pray
about it, pray before doing it,pray afterwards.
So you're surrounding it in aspiritual context.
You have accountability Forwhen you do it.
That's different thanrewatching anything, but it
still gets it kind of what we'retalking about.
(18:57):
It's like being willing towrite those fantasies down and
really face them, and I thinkwhat you said is really
important.
It's driving out the fearthat's there because love casts
out fear.
And Jesus was not, like you saywhat he's, not a fearful person.
He would not.
I don't think he'd be afraid ofporn and, like I said, I don't
think you'd look at porn andkind of like blush and turn away
(19:19):
and like not talk about it.
I think he would speak truthvery directly into it and see it
for exactly what it is.
And you know personally I sharewith men that you know it can
be a long journey but eventuallyI, just speaking for myself, I
can.
I can see, you know, formerporn actresses or even current
ones in front of a cameratalking about their experience
(19:41):
in the industry and things likethat and genuinely have feelings
of of empathy and sadness.
But for a lot of men, justhearing the name of a porn
actress or looking at them Couldbe a very, very triggering
action.
Allan Stanford (19:55):
That's where therapy and doing your work
comes into play, and this is whyImportant year me say it that
I'm not recommending this forjust anybody you have to develop
a certain window of tolerancefor your own triggers and your
own Culsion to be able to walkinto that fire and experience it
differently.
And that's part of the problem.
(20:16):
I think that's part of whatcreates addiction is that when
we is a kind of desperateattempt at moving back into it,
but without the equipment thatwe need and without the
understanding and therelationship with self that we
need in order to do it Safely,and so you end up just in this
feedback loop where you just getso triggered and spiraled out
in your trauma that you are Thendesperate to return to it and
(20:38):
get one more taste, you know,and like you never find freedom
that way.
So you definitely there's atime and place for that kind of
exposure and it's like it's partof a journey, but not it's not
for every part of the journey.
Yeah, you want to think that Iwant to be the kind of older men
.
A naked woman could walk intotheir office and his first
thought would be are you okay?
What's happening and like toyou know?
Kolton Thomas (20:59):
yeah to blanket or something.
Allan Stanford (21:01):
Yes, what's going on, not like being
overpowered by the fact thatthere's a naked one, like we're
perpetually 14 year old boys,you know like at some point
healing mean looks like growingup and not being so Overpowered
by the sex or nakedness.
Kolton Thomas (21:18):
Yeah, when I hear that story, like when I hear
you share that example, I justpicture, like you said,
perpetually 14 year old boys.
But also it's like we have thisConstantly craving flesh.
Why do we walk around with thisintense craving so much of the
time?
And I think it goes back to ourhearts feeling empty and us
living From this woundedness,like you're talking about this,
(21:41):
these insecure attachments, thisinsecurity to be authentic
Selfs.
So let's talk about that.
Like, how does one move awayfrom these wounded, insecure
Attachment styles and storiesthat they're trying to live by,
they're hurting them?
Like, how does one start thathealing journey?
Allan Stanford (22:01):
Well, it's super practical level.
I mean therapy, you know, is.
Yeah really helpful, yeah,gotta plug through therapists?
Kolton Thomas (22:10):
Yeah, for sure.
I.
Allan Stanford (22:11):
Yeah, I mean I'm gonna say it can't be done
without therapy, but I certainlydon't be done so much faster
with therapy If you're walkingwith somebody who has done their
work as well and and you canwalk with.
But I think, like on aphilosophical level, when you
know 30 000 foot view, it lookslike repairing those attachment
wounds from childhood, learningthese messages that you
(22:31):
unfortunately learned from momand dad or other caregivers or
at school as a youngster and youknow, like going back and
loving yourself better than that, like growing up is, I've said
I think I've said this beforebut Growing up is not a process
of replacing a child with anadult.
That's not what growing up is.
Growing up is the process oftaking the reins of
(22:53):
responsibility for that childaway from your parents and away
from away from others, where youare Ending securely attached to
you, to that little boy orlittle girl.
Does that make sense?
Kolton Thomas (23:04):
Yeah, it's where you learn how to soothe and
comfort the little boy or littlegirl inside you that tends to
take control, that has youthinking those negative thoughts
and doing those negativebehaviors.
It's your ability to Be amature enough person to
recognize when that inner child,that little boy, that little
girl, is screaming out, tryingto take control, uncomfortable,
(23:26):
sad, wounded.
It's your ability as an adult,I think, to comfort that part of
yourself and recognize.
You know those things in yourstory right.
Allan Stanford (23:36):
Absolutely and maybe most importantly, to speak
with authority, do that jobthat you are owning
responsibility for, speakingauthoritatively and not somebody
else, not not saying I love youand then turning and looking
for Some surrogate mom or dadand saying right, or like, is
(23:56):
that okay?
Or like it as this little boyqualifies.
He done what he's supposed todo to be good enough.
Kolton Thomas (24:02):
It's pushing back at that and owning the
connection to love and I thinkthat in your relationship with
yourself, with authority, yeah,that's really good and well said
and this is kind of where, youknow, our listeners on the show
have also We've heard from drEddie caperucci talked a lot
about inner child and he'swritten the book going deeper
about healing your inner child,and so this is where I kind of
(24:23):
see our podcast kind of thoseconcepts coming into play when
we're talking about the insecureattachments or the, you know,
the woundedness.
What we're talking, starting totalk about now, is that inner
child awareness and work.
Uh, that's so important.
Is that right?
And saying that is the innerchild, what we're talking about
here.
Allan Stanford (24:41):
Yeah, really important language.
It's super useful and it's it'sancient language, I would say
so.
I mean, if you look at theexample of st Peter, who's you
know, he's an easy character tolove Because he's so stupid and
he my wife tells me I reminderof Peter.
Kolton Thomas (24:59):
Man Don't say that.
I know Peter's like.
Allan Stanford (25:04):
My patronus, I'm pretty sure.
Yeah, he, he's such a a child,he's such a child in the gospels
and, uh, he, like hisrelationship with, with Jesus is
, it's so juvenile.
It's very hard to reconcilethat man, um, who said the
(25:27):
things that he said and did thebullheaded things that he did,
with the man who wrote first andsecond Peter.
I mean he they sound likedifferent people and even we're
gonna get to hear from himdirectly in acts, but he's
talked about a lot.
It's like the things that he'sdoing in acts.
It's like where did thatimmature little boy go?
And this is the great lesson ofthe, of the ascension, and why
(25:51):
Jesus didn't just stick aroundand stay and say Be here to be
the adult for everybody to tellthem what is good, that's good
and what's not good and what youknow in every little situation.
Because he wants us to grow upand that that's seen brilliantly
in Peter who, if Jesus hadstayed, he would have just
forever tugged at his garmentsand and just said what would I
(26:11):
do now?
What would I do now?
Peter has to grow up in ownresponsibility for stepping into
that role and he does so, youknow, inadequately and and, uh,
flailingly at times, but hefinds his feet though and he
gets there.
And that's to do that.
You have to take what Jesustaught him and turn that inward
and love that little boy andstand up for him as a man and
(26:33):
and grow up.
That's yeah.
Kolton Thomas (26:35):
Yeah, I mean Peter had to grow up in light of
a couple big Mistakes that hemade.
I'm thinking about when hestarted walking on the water but
sank, you know, if you don'tthink that that stuck with him,
let alone the denying Jesusthree times, I mean the Peter
that you see at Pentecost boldlyspeaking out for the gospel and
, like you said, the one thatpenned first and second.
(26:56):
Peter is someone who we see hasmatured greatly and overcome a
great deal of fear.
But if you think that thosememories, those big ways that he
failed, have left him, I thinkyou'd really be wrong.
I think he probably thoughtabout that, if not almost every
day, maybe, who knows?
Allan Stanford (27:13):
absolutely, yeah , absolutely.
And paul talks about the samejourney you know, growing up and
it all for me.
It all is Illustrated andmodeled out for us in the
trinitarian reality that at theheart of reality itself is a
father loving his son and thatas people who are made like him
(27:34):
that we have to live out thatown reality in ourselves, the
holy spirit of love that passesbetween the father and son.
That has to be true for usindividually if we're going to
have relationships with others,the way that got his relations
with others as well, which isthat it starts and I am in being
a self conscious being on, bothobserver and observed
simultaneously, and that there alook of love between my adult
(27:56):
self and my little boy self Beintegrated in the whole.
Kolton Thomas (28:00):
Alright, so that's actually the end of our
episode for today.
Shortly after that last rumbleof thunder is heard raining on
allen and so we called it.
But we actually recordedanother interview which I'm
going to release in anotherepisode, so stay tuned for that,
you know.
I do want to say that I lovethe way that episode ended, just
talking about the father's lovefor his son and how we can
(28:21):
model after that, not just forour relationship with others but
with ourselves, to be secure inourselves and in our identities
and to commit to working outour stories and any areas where
we're not secure In a healthyway.
There are healthy ways to dothat not turning to born, but
turning instead to god and tohelp from others who we can look
(28:42):
to him, we can trust.
Now I have to laugh becauseright around the time we started
dissing on peter is when thefirst rumble of thunder came and
I thought, okay, hopefullygod's not upset at this, maybe
he's affirming this, butregardless, allen was a champ
for sticking it through theweather and again, so many odds
getting this podcast episoderecorded.
(29:03):
So wherever you are listeningto this, stay safe, stay dry and
, as always, thanks forlistening to the reclaimed and
unashamed podcast.
If you enjoyed listening totoday's interview, you can help
me move mountains by taking acouple minutes of your time and
(29:24):
supporting the podcast.
There's a couple key ways youcan do that.
One is really easy you canleave a review for the podcast.
A lot of times when it comes toreviews, people tend to take
time to leave negative ones, butnot positive ones, but you can
help change that and leave apositive review for this podcast
if it's making a difference inyour life.
The second thing you can do isyou can contribute financially
(29:45):
and you can help me and creatingmore high quality well research
content and interviews.
So you can find a link tosupport us through paypal or
patreon in the show notes.
Thanks so much, guys.
You rock.
Get out there, be resilient.
Live porn free.
We'll see you next time you.
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