November 3, 2023 • 23 mins
Send us a text with feedback about the show or questions you'd like to see addressed.
What if I told you that the way you understand sex and sexuality is influenced more by culture than you realize? In this episode, we venture through the history of Christian sexual ethics with our guest, Jonathan Storment, who talks about how the perception and treatment of women, sex, and children have evolved over the years. Jonathan illuminates why this understanding is pivotal to our modern culture, and highlights the struggle men face with pornography, despite its known detriments.
Commercial sexualization is also an important topic that has an impact on our lives. Later in the episode, we dissect how this phenomenon has obstructed our ability to celebrate Jesus with our bodies and has eroded the sanctity of human connection. We also reflect on the allure of secular perspectives on sex and how the divine encounter between Jesus and the Samaritan woman offers a fresh, sacred outlook on sex and sexuality. Tune in to this episode for a riveting exploration of Christian sexual ethics in the contemporary world.
Here's a link to a highly recommended book by Louis Perry called "The Case Against the Sexual Revolution" which gives an accurate depiction of what pornography and hook-up culture has been doing to our society: https://a.co/d/4JQAyce (Warning: the book does contain dark and explicit content which the author uses to make key points, so it is not advisable for children).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kolton Thomas (00:00):
Welcome to the Reclaimed and Unashamed podcast
where we are helping men torewire their brains and overcome
the shame that often surroundsunwanted pornography use.
I'm your host, Kolton Thomas,and welcome to episode 19, where
we are going to have our guest,jonathan Stormant, back on the
podcast.
Jonathan was our guest a fewepisodes ago in episode 16.
In that episode we talked abouttheology of the body.
(00:24):
It was a series of writings byPope John Paul II which had
really impacted Jonathan.
He read them and then he taughta series of lessons on them at
his church he is the preachingminister at Pleasant Valley
Church in Little Rock, arkansasand the content of these lessons
that he was teaching I feltstrongly when I heard them that
they were applicable to anyonestruggling with pornography,
(00:45):
because they really get deep tothe heart of some of these
issues around pornography andaround human sexuality.
And a big focus in episode 16was that God has made our bodies
, including our desires,including even our urges, and
those are good things.
The problem is they often gethijacked.
We form attachments, we formaddictions and those desires get
(01:08):
taken and channeled in thewrong direction.
But we talked in episode 16about how at the core, at the
root of these desires is thefact that God gave them to us,
and they are good.
Now episode 19.
Today, I'm excited to talk toyou a little bit more about
history.
Jonathan shares some briefstories in history that shed
light on how sexual ethicsespecially for the West, for our
(01:29):
culture has evolved over time,and it's really important, I
think, for us to understand howit's evolved in order for us to
know where we need to standapart from it.
Right as Christians, we knowthat we shouldn't be buying into
everything that our culture isputting in front of us, and our
culture is more sexualized todaythan it ever has been before.
But in order for us to be ableto separate ourselves from the
(01:52):
unhealthy parts of this culture,we've got to have an
understanding of what it is andhow it came to be, and so I
think talking about where we aretoday in light of where we were
in the past when it comes tosexual ethics and Christian
sexual ethics is a reallyimportant conversation.
And then, towards the end ofthe episode, we talk about how,
even when we know, our cultureis constantly putting the wrong
(02:16):
thing in front of us when itcomes to sex, why is it that so
many men who don't want to belooking at pornography find
themselves still struggling notto look, even after we become
convicted that it's wrong and weunderstand more about why.
Why does it still have a strongpull for us, right?
I think the answer to thatquestion isn't just one simple
answer.
I think that there aredifferent key moving parts, but
(02:39):
Jonathan is going to present atleast a couple really solid
reasons why he believes menreally struggle with pornography
, even when they don't want tolook at it, even when they know
that it's wrong.
So stick around to the end ofthe episode for that.
Before we dive in, I want to saythank you for being patient.
I know it's been a few weekssince we've come out with a new
episode.
I've actually been working on aYouTube channel for Reclaimed
(03:00):
and so if you'd like to go overand check that out and subscribe
to it and support the contentI'm creating there, so far, the
content that I'm creating isactually just shorts.
It's actually 60 seconds orless per video.
So they're quick thoughts, butthey're powerful thoughts from
some different thought leadersand experts.
You know anyone, from otherpopular YouTubers and content
creators to neuroscientists andpsychologists, and one of my
(03:24):
goals for the channel is forpeople to find it and people to
find all these different,powerful thoughts shared from
these different leaders in oursociety today and realize that
there is a army, I mean there isa solid wall of people who are
recommending, stronglyrecommending, that we avoid or
abstain from pornography for ourhealth, for our own good,
(03:46):
whether that's spiritually,mentally, physically, and so
it's pretty convicting.
So, again, if you want to hopon YouTube, search for Reclaimed
with Kolton Thomas or ReclaimedRecovery, you should be able to
find the channel that way, andI'd really appreciate your
support, guys.
So let's jump right into thisepisode.
It's going to start by Jonathantalking about human rights and
(04:06):
human sexuality throughouthistory and how Christianity has
made an impact on that, andthen it's going to transition
into what's happening withChristian sexual ethics today.
So enjoy the interview, guys.
Jonathan Storment (04:17):
The problem with Christianity is not that it
changed nothing, but that itchanged everything.
But I've been paying attentionto years to where do we get
things like human rights andwomen's rights and preferential
treatment of the poor people whoare vulnerable?
You know those kind of thingsare very deeply Christian and so
if you were to go back and readpre-Christian history you would
(04:38):
not recognize it.
You especially wouldn'trecognize what they thought of
when it comes to sex or women,how women should be treated, or
children and what's kind ofcommon sense today would have
been like ludicrous to people infirst century Greek or Rome or
the kind of outlying areas ofthat empire.
Kolton Thomas (05:01):
What are some examples of that?
Jonathan Storment (05:02):
Yeah, so there's a letter from around 30
AD from this Roman soldier whowas writing a letter back to his
wife and it's kind of a sweetletter, like he's just saying
hey, you know, I'm going to beaway for a while longer.
When I get paid I will send itto you Take care of our son.
(05:23):
Oh, by the way, if you werepregnant and it's a boy, let it
be, and if it's a girl, cast itout, hugs and kisses, and nobody
thought that was problematic.
You know the wife doesn't readthat and take offense.
You know, and like if you were,if you're a high status man,
then in ancient Rome you sawpeople as kind of penis
(05:49):
receptacles, like man woman.
You know, as long as it wasn'ta high status married woman,
then the world is your oyster.
And you know, like HarveyWeinstein is a great example of
you know, kind of Christianitypushing back on that, but every
(06:11):
man was Harvey Weinstein.
In fact there's a historian,tom Holland, who's not a
believer but he's done a greathistory of Christianity and he
said the movement of Jesusgrabbed men by the testicles.
It really did cause men torestrain their sexual desire and
redirect it.
Kolton Thomas (06:28):
That's powerful.
I mean, those statements, Ithink, might surprise some
people.
There's a lot to unpack there.
So Christianity what you'resaying is that we came from this
time where anything waspermissible sexually and men who
had strength or power werealmost entitled to use it to
have any kind of sex that theywanted.
(06:49):
And so you know, I think, thatthere's also a lot of child
slaves that were specificallyused for sex during that time.
And so what you're getting at iswhat is this massive cultural
shift that had to happen for usto get to where we are today in
the West, to where we push backagainst those things?
And you have, like the Me Toomovement, and you have women who
(07:12):
are coming out and saying, no,this is my body, is my right,
you can't advance on me sexuallyor use me sexually, because I
have power over my body.
And so I think what you'retalking about is like, what is
it that transitioned us to getto that point?
And I know I've heard you talka lot about how you really see
it as Christian ethics, theteachings that Jesus taught to
(07:35):
teach us self-control when itcomes to sexuality right, but
those ethics are now beingreally pushed back against.
Jonathan Storment (07:45):
Yeah, I don't think the sexual revolution, as
the 1960s were called, was notsomewhat a revolution, as it was
a return or attempt to returnto a previous state.
The true sexual revolution wasin the first century and
subsequent centuries, as itbegan to build up ahead of steam
, but it was good news to bothmen and women.
(08:07):
Another resource for people whoare listening and for readers
would be the case against thesexual revolution by Louise
Perry, who is I don't thinkshe's a believer.
The book is very dark, heavyand it talks about some pretty
perverse stuff and, like theimpact of porn on our culture
and culture on porn.
She's a liberal feminist whothinks that liberal feminism has
(08:29):
largely failed women and Ithink she's right.
And one of the things LouisePerry says is that the majority
of young college females themajority report having been
choked in their last sexualencounter and that is the
effects of pornography.
I have some friends who are inthe SLA program which is Sex and
(08:51):
Love Addicts Anonymous, which Ihighly come into someone, and
they tell me that the threestages of sexual addiction are
private, then it goes public, sostrip clubs, escorts, etc.
And then it goes violent andthat third one is often a
(09:12):
surprise to people.
But if you are habituating yoursoul into people or objects or
commodities to be used, theneventually it has a terminus and
that's.
That may sound jarring, but Ithink that's right.
So yeah.
Kolton Thomas (09:31):
So we have a society that's full of people
who would like to think that alittle pornography doesn't
really hurt anybody, and I thinkthat for men who don't want to
be looking at it, they realizethere's pain.
They felt the pain of it.
They felt the pain of thisshame and the secrecy, but the
pornography itself I meanthere's.
You can get online today andfind psychologists and doctors
(09:52):
arguing that pornographystatistically hasn't been bad
for our society, and they saw ita number of different reasons.
Some say that the overallpercentages of sexual abuse and
rape have gone down in recentdecades, and one thing that I'm
trying to make is that there areexperts out there trying to say
that pornography isn't harmful.
If anything, it's given men anopportunity to redirect some of
(10:16):
their sexual desire into it,rather than real women, and so I
was like I don't agree withthat narrative.
I'd love to hear yourperspective.
Why is porn actually harmful?
That someone's daughter, son orniece or sister.
So I told you about.
You should share about him andshare his stories.
Jonathan Storment (10:37):
So Sigmund Freud his ideas have largely
been discredited, but they're inthe culture and they have won
the day.
Sigmund Freud's big idea isthat male sexual desire cannot
be restrained and if it leads toneurosis.
And his nephew Eber Bernays, heworked with his allies against
the German army and what theywould do.
(10:59):
So, basically, Eber Bernaysrealized that his uncle was on
to something that Sigmund Freudbelieved, that a lot of people
do stuff and they're not awareof what they are really thinking
, their unconscious biases andfears.
And so Eber Bernays would goafter those kind of driving
desires that everybody has Fear,concern for safety, desire for
(11:21):
sex, this kind of lack ofsecurity, Anyway.
So Eber Bernays would work withthe allies and he dropped
propaganda pamphlets on thesoldiers while they were at war.
And it would be like pamphletsthat were dropped on them that
said like while you're outfighting those war, your wife is
sleeping with someone else, sojust introduce that anxiety and
(11:42):
demoralize them.
One thing he did he dropped abunch of extra large condoms on
them, labeled small, and actedlike they were supposed to be
for Americans.
So I mean like if I'm talkingto dudes, right now.
Yeah, you know like that wouldwork right.
You'd be like what kind ofstallions are we fighting?
(12:04):
I mean just stuff like that.
So, eber Bernays, he gets, oncethe war ends, he's out of a job
and it dawns on him that hecould do the work he does at
peacetime, that he did for thewar.
So he writes a book calledPropaganda.
If you've ever had a marketingclass, you've heard of this book
, because he was the father ofmarketing and he connected our
(12:29):
deepest desires with products.
So if you've ever seen a moviewhere a couple make love and
then they light up a cigarette,that is an Edward Bernays
special.
Because before Eber Bernays, theaverage American woman was just
an average normal sized female.
But because cigarettes suppressthe appetite, he realized I
(12:50):
have to create a problem inorder to solve it.
So he began to platform really,really thin women and tried to
redefine and did successfullyredefine the American ideal of
beauty to be this very thinperson.
And then, after a few years ofthat, he then presented Lucky
(13:10):
Strikes as a way to curb yourappetite.
In other words, here's why I'msaying all this, like you're
asking about culture.
I think that one of thechallenges anybody trying to
live in America is going to haveis that our entire culture has
been sexualized, and it's notbeen sexualized for sex.
It's been sexualized.
(13:31):
Just sell you crap you don'tneed.
And you may think that that'ssilly and that doesn't work, and
I would say, well, just checkout your bank account or your
house or your garage, becausechances are Sigmund Freud knew
something about us that wedidn't know, that we are driven
by desires that we're notconscious of.
So I would say people are usedto sell products, and that is
(13:54):
one of the challenges of tryingto be faithful to the way of
Jesus with my body in America.
Kolton Thomas (14:01):
Which is, you know, in pornography and in sex
work, people become the products, right, and so part of this is
us just needing to recognizethat and realize that he want
nothing to do with that right.
Jonathan Storment (14:15):
Sure, people aren't property or profit
centers.
Luis Perry talks about thesexual disenchantment of the
West and basically this is whatPope John Paul II is getting at
with.
The problem with pornography isnot that it shows too much of a
person, but too little.
Like when you reduce someone tocertain parts of their body, as
if that person is a vagina on astick, or you know what I mean,
(14:38):
then you're not loving thewhole person.
Nobody wants to be loved likethat and nobody really wants to
love like that.
It diminishes this reallyspecial thing that human beings
have by disenchanting it, andyou know we do that by.
Come on, it's just sex, it'sjust like it's a handshake or
(14:59):
something.
And yet when sexual assaulthappens, we know it's different
than physical assault.
When sexual abuse happens, whenrape happens, something has
been violated.
That's more than just what canbe, you know, physically
described.
Kolton Thomas (15:17):
Yeah, our moral compass, the instinctual
morality, is placed and everyhuman being can recognize the
evil in violating someonesexually.
But what you're saying is, ifculture is saying let's liberate
sex and sex is just sex andit's okay just to have that
pleasure all on its own, withoutit being connected to all these
(15:38):
other important things, thenwhy are rape and sexual abuse,
why are those so distasteful tous?
And what you're saying is thatthose things should be signposts
for us that point to the factthat there is something sacred
to sex and to human sexuality.
But why is it that so many ofus are buying into the secular
(16:00):
ideas about sex?
Why is it so tempting?
Jonathan Storment (16:03):
Yeah, well, there's a deeper thing too.
There's that GK Chestertonquote that every man who knocks
on the door of a brothel islooking for God.
I really do think that's true,because I think there's a reason
that we're drawn to this andwe're all very thirsty.
So, okay, like John 4, right,like the conversation with Jesus
(16:25):
and Samaritan woman, jesus runsinto her at lunchtime at a well
.
She's by themselves, and heasked her for water.
And she says how can you ask me?
I'm a woman, you're a man, I'ma Samaritan, you're a Jew.
How can you ask me for water?
And he asked me for water.
And he says if you knew who Iwas, you would ask me for water,
because I can give you waterthat will quench your deepest
(16:47):
thirst forever.
And she's like oh, give me thiswater.
And he says, okay, go, go andget your husband.
And she's like man, I don'thave a husband.
And jesus is right, you don'thave a husband, you've been
married five different times andthe man that you're living with
now is not your husband.
And she says Sir, I can seethat you're a prophet and nosy.
(17:12):
And what is happening in thatmoment is jesus is not changing
the subject, he's doing exactlywhat she asked.
He says I would like this waterthat can quench my thirst
eternally.
Can I have some?
And so what he does?
Show her what well she'sdrinking from right now.
This is why I think jesus is soCompassionate and understanding
(17:33):
to anybody who is going throughsexual immorality, because what
we're really searching for ishim.
And there's an itch that you'renot gonna be able to scratch in
this life, and that sounds likesomething preachers are
supposed to say.
So If you bristle at that, thenread albert camu, the
existential philosopher, who'snot a believer.
(17:53):
Describe the absurdity of lifeand that we all have really well
, and I think what we're doingis we just have this thirst and
we're drinking saltwater, eventhough we know it doesn't
satisfy.
Maybe for a moment might know.
Kolton Thomas (18:06):
Yeah, and you know, we have a lot of men in
our culture longing for that,for deeper intimacy, for a
deeper relationship with god.
And yet, like you said, bakedinto the very history of our
culture is this idea of usingour most instinctual desires as
a way of selling us things, as away of driving our economy,
selling his products.
(18:27):
And if one of the things thispodcast accomplishes is to just
help men wake up to how muchthis is still going on today, to
how much pornography and othersexual advertisements or shows
are really there in order todrive profit and to use their
instinctual desires for thatpurpose, and how much that's
(18:50):
taking them away from so much ofa greater, deeper vision of
what sexuality could be Right,that's my prayers that more men
would hear about our culture andget cultural insights, as well
as the history of it, andrecognize that we don't have to
buy into the narrative in thestory that our culture is trying
to feed us about sex.
Jonathan Storment (19:11):
That's right.
Yeah, I mean, I do thinkChristianity has always been
best when it's a creativeminority that is faithful to a
very alternative worldview.
Because sexuality is, it's notone of the essentials of
Christianity, it is animplication of some of the
essentials, like incarnation,resurrection, ascension.
All of those are affirming thegoodness and inherent dignity of
(19:33):
a human body.
But it is a kind of first flashpoint of whether you're going
to obey the way of Jesus or not.
So I would tell people whoclaim to be followers of Jesus
you got to take this seriouslyfor your own mental health,
spiritual well being.
This is pretty central to youfollowing Jesus.
Well, it's one of the ways youare loving to your neighbor and
(19:55):
to the women in our life is bypracticing self restraint and
having eyes to see people betterthan products to be used.
Kolton Thomas (20:04):
Yeah, that's well said.
Well, that wraps up today'sinterview.
Thanks so much for listening.
Guys, if there's one point thatI would want you to get from
this episode, it's just tounderstand the big picture and
where we are at this moment intime and how important it is for
you to learn self-control Overthese desires that you have, so
(20:25):
as not to participate in whatculture is doing, but rather to
stand firm in the principles, inthe faith that you've always
aspired to, that you've alwaysheld on to.
And it's not an easy thing todo.
We stumble, we fall.
That's understandable, but itreclaimed.
We have a community of men who,together, are keeping each
(20:47):
other strong, our speaking truthand encouragement Into each
other's lives, and we're seeingmen actually win in this battle,
actually watch Pornography lessand less and less until it
becomes such a small problem intheir life that they're able to
manage it and go on living andnot have to worry day-to-day
about looking at porn.
So there's no shame in askingfor help, there's no shame in
(21:08):
opening up.
You know that it reclaimed.
We have coaching.
We have a program that includesindividual coaching, group
coaching, a video course.
So if that's something thatyou're interested in, reach out
to Kolton@reclaimedrecovery.
com , or check out our app, ourcommunity app, and you can
create an account and log inthere.
It's free, it's confidential.
You could even send me a directmessage in there at community.
(21:30):
reclaimedrecovery.
com.
You can reach out to me ineither of those places.
You can also just ask questions, make comments on what you're
hearing in the podcast, please.
I want to be accessible, I wantto hear your stories and I want
this podcast to be transforminglives, to be helping as much as
possible.
But again, there's so many menwho just need that direct work,
(21:52):
that direct Encouragement andcoaching to really get that
momentum going.
And once you've got thatmomentum going and once you've
got that community, thoseconnections you can open up to
and you can lean on to practiceintegrity, man, you're gonna
take off.
I mean, I've seen so many guysjust overcome pornography and
outgrow this issue a lot oftimes.
That can start with justreaching out, opening up, making
(22:14):
an investment in yourself andtaking a risk, whether that's
with reclaimed or just anyresource that you've been
thinking about To help you moveforward.
Don't wait, don't letpornography have one more day to
dictate your feelings, todictate your identity and your
sense of self worth, because Goddidn't just throw you together.
He created you.
He has a plan for you in yourlife and he's given you specific
(22:36):
, unique Gifts to be able to usein this world to bless others,
to care for others, to lookafter others, to protect Others.
So don't put it off for toolong.
So that's all we have for today, guys.
In the meantime, stay humble,stay resilient, and thanks for
listening to the reclaimedrecovery podcast.
We'll see in the next one.
(22:57):
If you enjoyed listening totoday's interview, you can help
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Supporting the podcast.
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(23:19):
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Thanks so much, guys, you rock.
Get out there, be resilient,live porn free.
(23:39):
We'll see you next time.
Welcome to the Reclaimed and Unashamed podcast
where we are helping men torewire their brains and overcome
the shame that often surroundsunwanted pornography use.
I'm your host, Kolton Thomas,and welcome to episode 19, where
we are going to have our guest,jonathan Stormant, back on the
podcast.
Jonathan was our guest a fewepisodes ago in episode 16.
In that episode we talked abouttheology of the body.
(00:24):
It was a series of writings byPope John Paul II which had
really impacted Jonathan.
He read them and then he taughta series of lessons on them at
his church he is the preachingminister at Pleasant Valley
Church in Little Rock, arkansasand the content of these lessons
that he was teaching I feltstrongly when I heard them that
they were applicable to anyonestruggling with pornography,
(00:45):
because they really get deep tothe heart of some of these
issues around pornography andaround human sexuality.
And a big focus in episode 16was that God has made our bodies
, including our desires,including even our urges, and
those are good things.
The problem is they often gethijacked.
We form attachments, we formaddictions and those desires get
(01:08):
taken and channeled in thewrong direction.
But we talked in episode 16about how at the core, at the
root of these desires is thefact that God gave them to us,
and they are good.
Now episode 19.
Today, I'm excited to talk toyou a little bit more about
history.
Jonathan shares some briefstories in history that shed
light on how sexual ethicsespecially for the West, for our
(01:29):
culture has evolved over time,and it's really important, I
think, for us to understand howit's evolved in order for us to
know where we need to standapart from it.
Right as Christians, we knowthat we shouldn't be buying into
everything that our culture isputting in front of us, and our
culture is more sexualized todaythan it ever has been before.
But in order for us to be ableto separate ourselves from the
(01:52):
unhealthy parts of this culture,we've got to have an
understanding of what it is andhow it came to be, and so I
think talking about where we aretoday in light of where we were
in the past when it comes tosexual ethics and Christian
sexual ethics is a reallyimportant conversation.
And then, towards the end ofthe episode, we talk about how,
even when we know, our cultureis constantly putting the wrong
(02:16):
thing in front of us when itcomes to sex, why is it that so
many men who don't want to belooking at pornography find
themselves still struggling notto look, even after we become
convicted that it's wrong and weunderstand more about why.
Why does it still have a strongpull for us, right?
I think the answer to thatquestion isn't just one simple
answer.
I think that there aredifferent key moving parts, but
(02:39):
Jonathan is going to present atleast a couple really solid
reasons why he believes menreally struggle with pornography
, even when they don't want tolook at it, even when they know
that it's wrong.
So stick around to the end ofthe episode for that.
Before we dive in, I want to saythank you for being patient.
I know it's been a few weekssince we've come out with a new
episode.
I've actually been working on aYouTube channel for Reclaimed
(03:00):
and so if you'd like to go overand check that out and subscribe
to it and support the contentI'm creating there, so far, the
content that I'm creating isactually just shorts.
It's actually 60 seconds orless per video.
So they're quick thoughts, butthey're powerful thoughts from
some different thought leadersand experts.
You know anyone, from otherpopular YouTubers and content
creators to neuroscientists andpsychologists, and one of my
(03:24):
goals for the channel is forpeople to find it and people to
find all these different,powerful thoughts shared from
these different leaders in oursociety today and realize that
there is a army, I mean there isa solid wall of people who are
recommending, stronglyrecommending, that we avoid or
abstain from pornography for ourhealth, for our own good,
(03:46):
whether that's spiritually,mentally, physically, and so
it's pretty convicting.
So, again, if you want to hopon YouTube, search for Reclaimed
with Kolton Thomas or ReclaimedRecovery, you should be able to
find the channel that way, andI'd really appreciate your
support, guys.
So let's jump right into thisepisode.
It's going to start by Jonathantalking about human rights and
(04:06):
human sexuality throughouthistory and how Christianity has
made an impact on that, andthen it's going to transition
into what's happening withChristian sexual ethics today.
So enjoy the interview, guys.
Jonathan Storment (04:17):
The problem with Christianity is not that it
changed nothing, but that itchanged everything.
But I've been paying attentionto years to where do we get
things like human rights andwomen's rights and preferential
treatment of the poor people whoare vulnerable?
You know those kind of thingsare very deeply Christian and so
if you were to go back and readpre-Christian history you would
(04:38):
not recognize it.
You especially wouldn'trecognize what they thought of
when it comes to sex or women,how women should be treated, or
children and what's kind ofcommon sense today would have
been like ludicrous to people infirst century Greek or Rome or
the kind of outlying areas ofthat empire.
Kolton Thomas (05:01):
What are some examples of that?
Jonathan Storment (05:02):
Yeah, so there's a letter from around 30
AD from this Roman soldier whowas writing a letter back to his
wife and it's kind of a sweetletter, like he's just saying
hey, you know, I'm going to beaway for a while longer.
When I get paid I will send itto you Take care of our son.
(05:23):
Oh, by the way, if you werepregnant and it's a boy, let it
be, and if it's a girl, cast itout, hugs and kisses, and nobody
thought that was problematic.
You know the wife doesn't readthat and take offense.
You know, and like if you were,if you're a high status man,
then in ancient Rome you sawpeople as kind of penis
(05:49):
receptacles, like man woman.
You know, as long as it wasn'ta high status married woman,
then the world is your oyster.
And you know, like HarveyWeinstein is a great example of
you know, kind of Christianitypushing back on that, but every
(06:11):
man was Harvey Weinstein.
In fact there's a historian,tom Holland, who's not a
believer but he's done a greathistory of Christianity and he
said the movement of Jesusgrabbed men by the testicles.
It really did cause men torestrain their sexual desire and
redirect it.
Kolton Thomas (06:28):
That's powerful.
I mean, those statements, Ithink, might surprise some
people.
There's a lot to unpack there.
So Christianity what you'resaying is that we came from this
time where anything waspermissible sexually and men who
had strength or power werealmost entitled to use it to
have any kind of sex that theywanted.
(06:49):
And so you know, I think, thatthere's also a lot of child
slaves that were specificallyused for sex during that time.
And so what you're getting at iswhat is this massive cultural
shift that had to happen for usto get to where we are today in
the West, to where we push backagainst those things?
And you have, like the Me Toomovement, and you have women who
(07:12):
are coming out and saying, no,this is my body, is my right,
you can't advance on me sexuallyor use me sexually, because I
have power over my body.
And so I think what you'retalking about is like, what is
it that transitioned us to getto that point?
And I know I've heard you talka lot about how you really see
it as Christian ethics, theteachings that Jesus taught to
(07:35):
teach us self-control when itcomes to sexuality right, but
those ethics are now beingreally pushed back against.
Jonathan Storment (07:45):
Yeah, I don't think the sexual revolution, as
the 1960s were called, was notsomewhat a revolution, as it was
a return or attempt to returnto a previous state.
The true sexual revolution wasin the first century and
subsequent centuries, as itbegan to build up ahead of steam
, but it was good news to bothmen and women.
(08:07):
Another resource for people whoare listening and for readers
would be the case against thesexual revolution by Louise
Perry, who is I don't thinkshe's a believer.
The book is very dark, heavyand it talks about some pretty
perverse stuff and, like theimpact of porn on our culture
and culture on porn.
She's a liberal feminist whothinks that liberal feminism has
(08:29):
largely failed women and Ithink she's right.
And one of the things LouisePerry says is that the majority
of young college females themajority report having been
choked in their last sexualencounter and that is the
effects of pornography.
I have some friends who are inthe SLA program which is Sex and
(08:51):
Love Addicts Anonymous, which Ihighly come into someone, and
they tell me that the threestages of sexual addiction are
private, then it goes public, sostrip clubs, escorts, etc.
And then it goes violent andthat third one is often a
(09:12):
surprise to people.
But if you are habituating yoursoul into people or objects or
commodities to be used, theneventually it has a terminus and
that's.
That may sound jarring, but Ithink that's right.
So yeah.
Kolton Thomas (09:31):
So we have a society that's full of people
who would like to think that alittle pornography doesn't
really hurt anybody, and I thinkthat for men who don't want to
be looking at it, they realizethere's pain.
They felt the pain of it.
They felt the pain of thisshame and the secrecy, but the
pornography itself I meanthere's.
You can get online today andfind psychologists and doctors
(09:52):
arguing that pornographystatistically hasn't been bad
for our society, and they saw ita number of different reasons.
Some say that the overallpercentages of sexual abuse and
rape have gone down in recentdecades, and one thing that I'm
trying to make is that there areexperts out there trying to say
that pornography isn't harmful.
If anything, it's given men anopportunity to redirect some of
(10:16):
their sexual desire into it,rather than real women, and so I
was like I don't agree withthat narrative.
I'd love to hear yourperspective.
Why is porn actually harmful?
That someone's daughter, son orniece or sister.
So I told you about.
You should share about him andshare his stories.
Jonathan Storment (10:37):
So Sigmund Freud his ideas have largely
been discredited, but they're inthe culture and they have won
the day.
Sigmund Freud's big idea isthat male sexual desire cannot
be restrained and if it leads toneurosis.
And his nephew Eber Bernays, heworked with his allies against
the German army and what theywould do.
(10:59):
So, basically, Eber Bernaysrealized that his uncle was on
to something that Sigmund Freudbelieved, that a lot of people
do stuff and they're not awareof what they are really thinking
, their unconscious biases andfears.
And so Eber Bernays would goafter those kind of driving
desires that everybody has Fear,concern for safety, desire for
(11:21):
sex, this kind of lack ofsecurity, Anyway.
So Eber Bernays would work withthe allies and he dropped
propaganda pamphlets on thesoldiers while they were at war.
And it would be like pamphletsthat were dropped on them that
said like while you're outfighting those war, your wife is
sleeping with someone else, sojust introduce that anxiety and
(11:42):
demoralize them.
One thing he did he dropped abunch of extra large condoms on
them, labeled small, and actedlike they were supposed to be
for Americans.
So I mean like if I'm talkingto dudes, right now.
Yeah, you know like that wouldwork right.
You'd be like what kind ofstallions are we fighting?
(12:04):
I mean just stuff like that.
So, eber Bernays, he gets, oncethe war ends, he's out of a job
and it dawns on him that hecould do the work he does at
peacetime, that he did for thewar.
So he writes a book calledPropaganda.
If you've ever had a marketingclass, you've heard of this book
, because he was the father ofmarketing and he connected our
(12:29):
deepest desires with products.
So if you've ever seen a moviewhere a couple make love and
then they light up a cigarette,that is an Edward Bernays
special.
Because before Eber Bernays, theaverage American woman was just
an average normal sized female.
But because cigarettes suppressthe appetite, he realized I
(12:50):
have to create a problem inorder to solve it.
So he began to platform really,really thin women and tried to
redefine and did successfullyredefine the American ideal of
beauty to be this very thinperson.
And then, after a few years ofthat, he then presented Lucky
(13:10):
Strikes as a way to curb yourappetite.
In other words, here's why I'msaying all this, like you're
asking about culture.
I think that one of thechallenges anybody trying to
live in America is going to haveis that our entire culture has
been sexualized, and it's notbeen sexualized for sex.
It's been sexualized.
(13:31):
Just sell you crap you don'tneed.
And you may think that that'ssilly and that doesn't work, and
I would say, well, just checkout your bank account or your
house or your garage, becausechances are Sigmund Freud knew
something about us that wedidn't know, that we are driven
by desires that we're notconscious of.
So I would say people are usedto sell products, and that is
(13:54):
one of the challenges of tryingto be faithful to the way of
Jesus with my body in America.
Kolton Thomas (14:01):
Which is, you know, in pornography and in sex
work, people become the products, right, and so part of this is
us just needing to recognizethat and realize that he want
nothing to do with that right.
Jonathan Storment (14:15):
Sure, people aren't property or profit
centers.
Luis Perry talks about thesexual disenchantment of the
West and basically this is whatPope John Paul II is getting at
with.
The problem with pornography isnot that it shows too much of a
person, but too little.
Like when you reduce someone tocertain parts of their body, as
if that person is a vagina on astick, or you know what I mean,
(14:38):
then you're not loving thewhole person.
Nobody wants to be loved likethat and nobody really wants to
love like that.
It diminishes this reallyspecial thing that human beings
have by disenchanting it, andyou know we do that by.
Come on, it's just sex, it'sjust like it's a handshake or
(14:59):
something.
And yet when sexual assaulthappens, we know it's different
than physical assault.
When sexual abuse happens, whenrape happens, something has
been violated.
That's more than just what canbe, you know, physically
described.
Kolton Thomas (15:17):
Yeah, our moral compass, the instinctual
morality, is placed and everyhuman being can recognize the
evil in violating someonesexually.
But what you're saying is, ifculture is saying let's liberate
sex and sex is just sex andit's okay just to have that
pleasure all on its own, withoutit being connected to all these
(15:38):
other important things, thenwhy are rape and sexual abuse,
why are those so distasteful tous?
And what you're saying is thatthose things should be signposts
for us that point to the factthat there is something sacred
to sex and to human sexuality.
But why is it that so many ofus are buying into the secular
(16:00):
ideas about sex?
Why is it so tempting?
Jonathan Storment (16:03):
Yeah, well, there's a deeper thing too.
There's that GK Chestertonquote that every man who knocks
on the door of a brothel islooking for God.
I really do think that's true,because I think there's a reason
that we're drawn to this andwe're all very thirsty.
So, okay, like John 4, right,like the conversation with Jesus
(16:25):
and Samaritan woman, jesus runsinto her at lunchtime at a well
.
She's by themselves, and heasked her for water.
And she says how can you ask me?
I'm a woman, you're a man, I'ma Samaritan, you're a Jew.
How can you ask me for water?
And he asked me for water.
And he says if you knew who Iwas, you would ask me for water,
because I can give you waterthat will quench your deepest
(16:47):
thirst forever.
And she's like oh, give me thiswater.
And he says, okay, go, go andget your husband.
And she's like man, I don'thave a husband.
And jesus is right, you don'thave a husband, you've been
married five different times andthe man that you're living with
now is not your husband.
And she says Sir, I can seethat you're a prophet and nosy.
(17:12):
And what is happening in thatmoment is jesus is not changing
the subject, he's doing exactlywhat she asked.
He says I would like this waterthat can quench my thirst
eternally.
Can I have some?
And so what he does?
Show her what well she'sdrinking from right now.
This is why I think jesus is soCompassionate and understanding
(17:33):
to anybody who is going throughsexual immorality, because what
we're really searching for ishim.
And there's an itch that you'renot gonna be able to scratch in
this life, and that sounds likesomething preachers are
supposed to say.
So If you bristle at that, thenread albert camu, the
existential philosopher, who'snot a believer.
(17:53):
Describe the absurdity of lifeand that we all have really well
, and I think what we're doingis we just have this thirst and
we're drinking saltwater, eventhough we know it doesn't
satisfy.
Maybe for a moment might know.
Kolton Thomas (18:06):
Yeah, and you know, we have a lot of men in
our culture longing for that,for deeper intimacy, for a
deeper relationship with god.
And yet, like you said, bakedinto the very history of our
culture is this idea of usingour most instinctual desires as
a way of selling us things, as away of driving our economy,
selling his products.
(18:27):
And if one of the things thispodcast accomplishes is to just
help men wake up to how muchthis is still going on today, to
how much pornography and othersexual advertisements or shows
are really there in order todrive profit and to use their
instinctual desires for thatpurpose, and how much that's
(18:50):
taking them away from so much ofa greater, deeper vision of
what sexuality could be Right,that's my prayers that more men
would hear about our culture andget cultural insights, as well
as the history of it, andrecognize that we don't have to
buy into the narrative in thestory that our culture is trying
to feed us about sex.
Jonathan Storment (19:11):
That's right.
Yeah, I mean, I do thinkChristianity has always been
best when it's a creativeminority that is faithful to a
very alternative worldview.
Because sexuality is, it's notone of the essentials of
Christianity, it is animplication of some of the
essentials, like incarnation,resurrection, ascension.
All of those are affirming thegoodness and inherent dignity of
(19:33):
a human body.
But it is a kind of first flashpoint of whether you're going
to obey the way of Jesus or not.
So I would tell people whoclaim to be followers of Jesus
you got to take this seriouslyfor your own mental health,
spiritual well being.
This is pretty central to youfollowing Jesus.
Well, it's one of the ways youare loving to your neighbor and
(19:55):
to the women in our life is bypracticing self restraint and
having eyes to see people betterthan products to be used.
Kolton Thomas (20:04):
Yeah, that's well said.
Well, that wraps up today'sinterview.
Thanks so much for listening.
Guys, if there's one point thatI would want you to get from
this episode, it's just tounderstand the big picture and
where we are at this moment intime and how important it is for
you to learn self-control Overthese desires that you have, so
(20:25):
as not to participate in whatculture is doing, but rather to
stand firm in the principles, inthe faith that you've always
aspired to, that you've alwaysheld on to.
And it's not an easy thing todo.
We stumble, we fall.
That's understandable, but itreclaimed.
We have a community of men who,together, are keeping each
(20:47):
other strong, our speaking truthand encouragement Into each
other's lives, and we're seeingmen actually win in this battle,
actually watch Pornography lessand less and less until it
becomes such a small problem intheir life that they're able to
manage it and go on living andnot have to worry day-to-day
about looking at porn.
So there's no shame in askingfor help, there's no shame in
(21:08):
opening up.
You know that it reclaimed.
We have coaching.
We have a program that includesindividual coaching, group
coaching, a video course.
So if that's something thatyou're interested in, reach out
to Kolton@reclaimedrecovery.
com , or check out our app, ourcommunity app, and you can
create an account and log inthere.
It's free, it's confidential.
You could even send me a directmessage in there at community.
(21:30):
reclaimedrecovery.
com.
You can reach out to me ineither of those places.
You can also just ask questions, make comments on what you're
hearing in the podcast, please.
I want to be accessible, I wantto hear your stories and I want
this podcast to be transforminglives, to be helping as much as
possible.
But again, there's so many menwho just need that direct work,
(21:52):
that direct Encouragement andcoaching to really get that
momentum going.
And once you've got thatmomentum going and once you've
got that community, thoseconnections you can open up to
and you can lean on to practiceintegrity, man, you're gonna
take off.
I mean, I've seen so many guysjust overcome pornography and
outgrow this issue a lot oftimes.
That can start with justreaching out, opening up, making
(22:14):
an investment in yourself andtaking a risk, whether that's
with reclaimed or just anyresource that you've been
thinking about To help you moveforward.
Don't wait, don't letpornography have one more day to
dictate your feelings, todictate your identity and your
sense of self worth, because Goddidn't just throw you together.
He created you.
He has a plan for you in yourlife and he's given you specific
(22:36):
, unique Gifts to be able to usein this world to bless others,
to care for others, to lookafter others, to protect Others.
So don't put it off for toolong.
So that's all we have for today, guys.
In the meantime, stay humble,stay resilient, and thanks for
listening to the reclaimedrecovery podcast.
We'll see in the next one.
(22:57):
If you enjoyed listening totoday's interview, you can help
me move mountains by taking acouple minutes of your time and
Supporting the podcast.
There's a couple key ways youcan do that.
One, it's really easy you canleave a review for the podcast.
A lot of times, when it comesto reviews, people tend to take
time to leave negative ones, butnot positive ones.
But you can help change thatand leave a positive review for
(23:19):
this podcast if it's making adifference in your life.
The second thing you can do isyou can contribute financially
and you can help me in creatingmore high quality Well research
content and interviews.
So you can find a link tosupport us through PayPal or
patreon in the show notes.
Thanks so much, guys, you rock.
Get out there, be resilient,live porn free.
(23:39):
We'll see you next time.
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