Theology of the Body: Rediscovering Dignity in the Face of Sexual Depravity (With Jonathan Storment)
August 14, 2023 • 29 mins
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Get ready to embark on a transformative journey as we welcome an accomplished speaker, church leader, and scholar, Jonathan Stormant, to shed light on the profound teachings of Pope John Paul II's work titled Theology of the Body. Transformed himself by these writings, Jonathan dissects the complex intersection of faith, culture, and sexuality, emphasizing the divine origins of our deepest romantic impulses and the inherent goodness of our bodies. As we journey through the narrative of Adam and Eve, we discover how embracing our God-given dignity can lead us to the path of fulfillment and resilience against the sexual depravity prevalent in our culture.
Our exploration doesn't stop there. Steering the conversation towards the damaging aftermath of so-called 'sexual liberation,' we scrutinize the empty promises of pornography. Recall the allure that Christian sexual ethics held during the first century, and question why it is now often overlooked. Jonathan guides us through the idea of 'chasing the sunbeam back to the sun', a metaphor for our relentless pursuit of God in all things, including our sexuality. This episode is not just about challenging norms, but about redefining our understanding of sexuality, faith, and culture. This isn't your typical theological discussion; it's a call to reevaluate and embrace a healthier, more fulfilling vision of sex, love, and marriage.
If you're interested in showing some support to Jonathan, consider listening to his podcast Bonafide about important faith conversations and share it with some friends. Also, be sure to leave his podcast a review. The podcast is out on all platforms, here are a couple of links:
- Listen to Bonafide with Jonathan Storment on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4F759TMGHjiadroK8CxNGN?si=5a7d3f0369364d5c
- Listen to Bonafide with Jonathan Stormen on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bonafide/id1626765064
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kolton Thomas (00:02):
Welcome to the Reclaimed and Unashamed podcast
where we are helping men torewire their brains and overcome
the shame that often surroundsunwanted pornography use.
I'm your host, colton Thomas,and today you're listening to
episode 16 with special guestJonathan Stormant.
Now, I first heard Jonathanwhen I was listening to his
sermon series online calledTheology of the Body.
(00:25):
Now, theology of the Body is aseries of writings done by
Catholic Pope John Paul II, andI don't think that Jonathan
identifies as Catholic, butthese writings were so
influential for him he did aseries on them at his church.
So I invited him on the podcastto talk about Theology of the
Body, which means that today'sepisode is going to be more
theological.
We're going to be talking fromthe Bible, particularly the
(00:47):
story of Adam and Eve, a lot,but the best way I can introduce
Jonathan or explain why I'veinvited him onto the show is
actually to show you a clip ofhim speaking in one of his
sermons on Theology of the Body.
So I want you to give this alisten.
Who he's talking about here isAdam and Eve, and what he says
here is basically what we'regoing to break down in the rest
of the podcast episode in ourinterview we're going to go into
(01:08):
more details, so check this out.
Jonathan Storment (01:10):
But this is the case of original goodness,
and what it means is that, whenthey don't feel shame, it means
they know they properly imageGod in every part of their body,
and their body is a gift thatthey give to one another,
because the body is female, iswitness to creation being a gift
(01:31):
and our origin being love.
Adam isn't driven by instincts.
He recognizes the goodness ofher body, is an image of God and
was compelled to offer himselfas a gift to her, and she was
compelled to offer herself as agift to him, and together they
reflect the inner life of God,this self emptying, self
(01:51):
donating, always giving,receiving life of God.
God revealed himself in Jesusand in your body, god.
Here's what this means, y'all,in a secular world where it's so
hard to believe in God thereare hundreds of image bearers of
God in this room it's hard forme not to believe in God.
(02:13):
God has revealed himself, andhe's not some slave driver, he's
not some tyrant, he's not someold angry man in the sky.
God is an external exchange oflove, and he made us to share in
that exchange, in fact, yourdeepest romantic impulses, no
matter what you do, whether youchoose to be single and celibate
(02:35):
or to be married and given yourlife as a gift to your spouse.
Your deepest impulses are givenby God and the way to happiness
is by embracing the goodness ofyour body and welcoming that
gift and imitating God.
Which means we have restraint.
(02:56):
We are not like the animals.
We can say no, we don't have todownload that app, we don't
have to go to that website, wedon't have to go to that club.
But the reason you're drawn toit is because the way men and
women compliment each otherphysically is a way it shows the
nature of God.
Kolton Thomas (03:17):
Wow, guys, I think that message is so true
and important, and so, withoutfurther ado, here's Jonathan
Stormant.
We are going to unpack theologyof the body.
All right, jonathan Stormant,thanks so much for being on the
Reclaim Podcast today.
Jonathan Storment (03:31):
Well, thanks for having me, Kolton.
Kolton Thomas (03:32):
Yeah, so glad to have you, man.
We've connected for a number ofreasons.
You are actually local in mytown and I have so many friends
that are connected with you,that see you as a mentor.
And you started doing your ownpodcast not long ago called
Bonafide, and these areconversations about faith or
(03:53):
individuals who are strugglingwith faith or have walked away
from the faith, and there'sthese very authentic
conversations.
So I've been listening to yourpodcast.
It's got me thinking deeply, andthen I've also listened to some
of the presentations you've puttogether when it comes to
theology and the body, and Ijust thought you did an
incredible job with this, so Iwanted to have you on the
podcast and talk about how allthese messages relate to the
(04:17):
struggle and depravity thatwe're seeing in our culture when
it comes to sex and sexualityand men struggling with porn.
So do you want to start justsharing a little bit about
yourself and also how you cameabout teaching and preaching on
these particular subjects?
Jonathan Storment (04:34):
Yeah, sure.
So I, born and raised inArkansas, went to Harding, got a
degree in ministry, then apastor in Texas for 16 years and
spent a lot of time withcollege students.
So worked in a college town,worked as a college minister,
(04:54):
and I noticed something inaround 2003 that a lot of the
people that had grown up inchurch, that went to Harding
with me or that I'd known foryears they were in ministry,
were not just walking away fromministry but church and, in
(05:15):
particular, faith in God.
Some of that's because of 9-11,and often it was men who were
bristling at the Christian kindof sexual ethic that was handed
down to them.
And some of that was very heavyhanded, like purity culture,
which affected men and women,but probably women a lot more.
(05:37):
But anyway.
So there's a reaction to thatand over the last 20 years I've
been trying to make sense of myfriends and the world that we
live in.
And so theology of the body,which is actually Pope John Paul
II.
What's interesting about PopeJohn Paul II this was in the
(05:58):
1970s is that when people hearCatholic talking about theology
of the body, they assume, oh,another cranky old man get off
my line, kind of thing.
But he was not just respondingto the sexual revolution, he was
also responding to theHolocaust, because both of those
(06:21):
things were done with a veryspecific vision of what a human
body is worth, and the tone ofthe theology of the body is not
wagging your finger at how,shame on you.
It's more embrace your Godgiven dignity.
(06:43):
And I found it so compellingbecause I have for years been
trying to figure out where isthe grounding for human value
and dignity.
Kolton Thomas (06:57):
Explain what the theology of the body is as well
for listeners.
Is it a book or is it a seriesof articles that the Pope wrote?
What is the theology of thebody and what are the main
points?
What's the highlight?
Jonathan Storment (07:09):
So it's very much scripture based.
So, for example, if you grew upin church or just in America,
you're probably familiar withthe story of Adam and Eve and
the creation story.
But if you pay attention toGenesis 2, there's some stuff
that's happening there that I'venever heard anybody talk about.
So Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 aretwo different creation stories.
(07:33):
Genesis 1 is like a 50,000 footview, genesis 2 is like a kind
of close up.
And in Genesis 2, god createsAdam, and that word doesn't mean
male, it means human being.
So there is no male and femaleat this point, it's just one
human being.
And as soon as God creates Adam, it's this weird story of like
(07:57):
a discovery channel happensright afterwards.
So God brings the parade ofanimals to Adam to find a
suitable helper, which is likeweird.
So Adam is going to have Adamname the animals and look for a
partner.
Which?
have you ever heard a sermon onthat?
It's a weird story, but what ishappening in that is God is
(08:20):
letting them see that they aredifferent, that human being is
different, that Adam is alone inthe universe, he's unlike the
animals, and the word for thatsolitude that we feel is person.
You know, all of God'screatures deserve special
(08:41):
respect, but God made humanbeings different.
Scientists wrestle with, likehuman consciousness or whatever,
but the distinction betweenhuman beings and animals is that
we have freedom.
We are free to love, to chooseor not choose love.
And then, after Adam realizesthis, god puts him into a deep
(09:06):
sleep and splits the Adam andmakes them male and female.
And when they first see eachother this naked, two naked
people in a garden Adam breaksinto poetry like, starts singing
and he says this is bone in mybone and flesh in my flesh.
(09:27):
So what happens in the creationof male and female is now that
word is that she is opposite andsame, like she is my opposite,
but yet we're complement oneanother.
So here's a better way to saythis A man's body doesn't make
(09:48):
sense by itself.
A woman's body doesn't makesense by itself.
They were made for each other.
Or to say another way, a man'sbody is complete in all systems
except one.
A female's body is complete inall systems except one, and when
(10:09):
they come together, in thenatural course of events, they
create a third.
In other words, the genders arenot competitive, they are
generative, and I use that wordgenerate like genitals, generous
generation.
When a man and woman make love,they actually make something
(10:32):
and in the natural course ofevents, these two come together
and make a third.
And this is where theology, thebody, comes in, just like the
three in one God that wethatmade us.
So when God says let us makehuman beings in our own image,
(10:52):
who's he talking to?
Well, christians havehistorically understood that to
be kind of precursor of what wenow consider the three in one
God, a God who is alwaysself-empting, self-donating,
others, focused, pointing away.
And what this means is thatwhen a man and woman in a
(11:15):
marriage covenant, when theygive themselves to each other,
they are imaging the very innerlife of God.
So that's theology of the bodyand there's a lot more to this.
But like there's a goodness inthe end of Genesis 2.
It says in the man and womanwere naked and they felt no
(11:38):
shame.
And I'm probably talking topeople who have a lot of shame I
have my own too.
The reason we all have thatinstinct is because we know
inherently our body is good andit's not meant to be used and so
flip that.
And that's what Adam and Eveare feeling.
(11:58):
They know their inherentgoodness of their body, that it
images God, that it literallylike their body.
We try to treat all thosesexual descriptions of Hosea and
song of songs.
We try to treat that like it'sa metaphor.
(12:20):
So your body is actually a waythat you image.
You literally image a divinereality.
So there's an inherent goodnessto your body.
And the thing that I love themost about Theology of the Body
is Pope John Paul would sayrepeatedly your body, and only
(12:44):
your body, can make theinvisible visible, and this is
Scripture 1 John 420,.
No one has seen God, but youhave seen your brother or sister
.
How can you say I love God andhate your brother or sister?
If you do that, then you're aliar, because your body images
(13:07):
God and so it makes theinvisible visible.
Kolton Thomas (13:11):
Yeah, I had a few thoughts from what you were
sharing there.
So what does this mean when weengage in something like
pornography?
What's it doing to this?
We have this image that youjust painted for us.
We have this painting of howsex is about something greater
than us.
It's, like you said, becausewe're made in the image of God.
There are theological thingshappening in the way that we
(13:36):
interact and join with theopposite sex, and so, when we
look at things that way, thenwhat does it mean when we're
using pornography?
Jonathan Storment (13:45):
Well, I mean, I think it means we're thirsty.
I do think you know I'm a mantoo, so it's not like this has
not been a part of my struggleand accountability groups and
you know all those kind ofthings, so I'm not coming in as
just some ivory tower expert atall.
(14:06):
I'm doing this because of that,in my years of pastoring and in
my years as being a man.
What I think it does, though,is it slowly takes away the very
thing it promises, like allidolatry.
So you know, like you weretalking about, you could find
(14:27):
doctors to say all the socialbenefits of pornography.
Well, I can give you one ofthem, and that's that the amount
of teenagers having sex hasgone down for the first time
since they started measuringthis in the last 100 years, and
at first you're like, oh well,there's a revival, and then
you're like, oh no, it's becausea bunch of 18 year old dudes
have erectile dysfunction,because they have been discipled
(14:51):
in pornography.
So let me do this.
So the people who first readGenesis, when they first read it
, when the serpent comes in andsays, did God really say you
would really die if you eat fromthis?
The people who first heard thatstory and read that story would
have thought at first glancethat God was lying and that the
(15:13):
serpent was telling the truth.
We're so kind of into the storyit's hard for us to read it
with fresh eyes.
But you see that right, likethe serpent says, you won't die.
They eat the fruit and thenthey don't die, like nothing
really happens.
They get kicked out of thegarden but they don't die.
And then decades come.
(15:34):
Later, cain reaches up andkills Abel and all of a sudden
Adam and Eve are the first onesto realize this universal truth.
There is often a gap between thechoice and the consequences,
and so sexual liberation.
(15:55):
I don't know of anybody whowalks away from God, church,
jesus or even their own like,conscious or morality.
I don't know of anybody whodoesn't.
When they first get throughthat, there the universal
feeling tends to be I'm free,I'm free, I can, you know,
master of my fate, captain of mysoul.
(16:15):
But ideas have consequences,and consequences take a while to
develop.
And so there's a reason thatthe Christian sexual revolution,
that the Christian sexual ethicwas so appealing in the first
century, and it's because thepeople who lived in that world
were hungry for something better.
And because we have largelytaken the kind of Christian
(16:39):
ethic for granted.
We see it stodgy and oppressive.
We can't see all theconsequences that it has helped
us save ourselves from.
So and we were talking offlineabout- that.
Rahm and Roheiser quote aboutshow me one culture in human
civilization, ever, in anycivilization, any society ever
(17:01):
that got this right.
You know when people are beingpessimistic about the Christian
ethic, you know I want to sayjust well, show me, show me
where anybody got it right, everright, because there's no
evidence.
You know, we have all theseutopias in our head, but this is
such a powerful thing inside ofevery one of us and the draw
for this is so powerful, and sois the potential for it's kind
(17:25):
of like nitroglycerin this canheal a heart below the bridge.
It's very powerful.
Kolton Thomas (17:33):
Yeah, it's sexuality is nuclear and its
effect.
You know, I thought your pointabout porn slowly taking away
the very things that it promisesover time, more and more.
I think that's a reallyprofound concept that I think
men who are struggling with thisneed to dwell on and to
recognize that there's that gap.
So they may not be feeling awhole lot of immediate pain and
(17:56):
consequences now, but we know,because history has taught us
and even our own experience hastaught us, that those
consequences from viewingpornography over years are
coming, and so I think there's ahealthy fear and motivation
there.
There doesn't need to be anenormous amount of shame Because
, like we talked about, whatyou're really looking for is God
.
Your desire underneath it allis not something to be ashamed
(18:20):
of that desire to search formeaning and comfort that's not
evil in and of itself, but torecognize right now at all, yeah
but recognize there will beconsequences coming, and that
porn will slowly take away thosethings that promises, I think,
is a really great point.
So in wrapping up the episode,how do we get it right?
(18:43):
Like what you know and I knowthere's so much that could be
said here but like what's thegreater vision?
You know, you're just talkingabout the theology of the body
and you were, you were hittingon that some.
But like, yeah, what's better?
Jonathan Storment (18:55):
than pornography?
Great question.
So you know, pornography isjust a poor substitute for
actual sex, but sex itself isn'tgoing to scratch that edge.
So here's the answer to what Ithink you're trying to.
You're asking me You've have to, in the words of CS Lewis,
(19:16):
chase the sun beam back to thesun.
Let's say you're just astereotypical male and you feel
so sexually attracted to a woman.
Well, part of part of what thatis and this is, you know,
christian theology, the body 101is you are looking for your
(19:38):
eternal opposite.
Like there's this incompletenessin me and in you and you're
looking for that and chasingthat sun beam back to the sun.
Okay, let me answer it likethis.
There's a parable of twobishops who are walking down the
(19:58):
street.
They see this scantily cladprostitute, and one of the
bishop, when he sees her, hequickly turns his eyes, which
you know, I was raised doingthat.
You know.
Bounce your eyes, take custodyof your eyes.
Joe, make a covenant not to getlooked less likely at a woman,
right?
(20:18):
So he does that.
But the other bishop doesn't dothat.
The other bishop stares, and sothe first bishop who turned his
eyes, when he realizes that thesecond bishop is staring, he's
like hey, come on Cheating.
And then the other yeah, theother bishop actually turns back
and he's got tears running downhis face and he says it's so
(20:42):
sad that such beauty is beingsold to the lust of men.
And that first bishop whobounced his eyes I think maybe a
lot of us are in a season wherewe we need to do that but that
second bishop had learned how tochase the sun beam.
And that story is not a parable.
(21:04):
That's a true story of a guynamed Saint Saint Nannis of
Edessa, and the harlot was namedPelagia.
And because of the way thatSaint Nannis looked at her with
love and delight.
She noticed because men didn'tlook at her like that, and so
she started talking to him, andtoday she is known as Saint
(21:25):
Pelagia of Antioch.
Wow, and you can't.
You know, those kind of storiesare inspiring, but you can't
get there without the HolySpirit and practicing the
presence of God.
And so you asked earlier what Iwould say to somebody who is
just in it right now.
You know, my very first thingwould be you need to fast from
(21:49):
food.
That's something from thedesert fathers on.
If you are struggling withhuman weakness and not being
able to tell your body no, thenyou need to come at the sideways
and fast.
You know, learn how to practiceself-control with the help of
(22:10):
the Holy Spirit.
So, you know, skip eating oneor two days a week and just turn
your thoughts and attentionback to prayer, because you'll
begin to be able to practiceself-control.
That's good.
I would also think and I'm sureother people have talked about
(22:31):
having accountability, maybesome intense accountability, but
what you're trying to do is beable to redirect your own soul,
to be able to attend to theworld properly and to see people
properly and it really is thebest way to joy and outside of
all the negative consequences ofporn and the personal and
(22:54):
social consequences of it.
I mean people who aren't evenbelievers, like the no-fap group
on Reddit you know thesestraight edgers or whatever.
They're seeing that.
But I'm thinking Jesus iscalling us to a much more robust
, joyful way of living thatproperly sees what we look at
(23:17):
when we see ourselves in themirror and properly sees Grandma
Betty and Pamela Anderson withthe same kind of like glory to
God, my eternal opposite, who isa full image barrier of God and
deserves great dignity, honorand respect.
Kolton Thomas (23:40):
Yeah that's good.
Yeah, how to get thought thereand I lost it.
But, yeah, you're talking.
So you're talking aboutaccountability groups and I
don't think we've talked aboutthis a whole lot, but I run an
(24:02):
online accountability group.
It's a.
It comes with like a 10 weekprogram.
There's videos, there's acourse, and then I do some
coaching.
I'm in counseling.
I don't know if you knew that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, butit's.
There's also like this onlinecommunity aspect.
But I've heard of regenerationthat you guys are doing at your
(24:23):
church and I think for some menthat doing it in person, getting
like in person accountabilitywith people who are really in
your community that you're doinglife with, can be huge, and so
anyone listening, if you'relooking to get you know serious
about accountability, look foroptions like that at your church
.
And then also there are onlineopportunities, like reclaimed,
(24:47):
that you can get plugged into aswell.
There's just a lot more outthere, a lot more resources out
there than what a lot of menrealize you just have.
You need to start looking forthem.
You need to be resourceful,take initiative, but they're out
there for you, and I appreciateyour advice that you gave to
you about considering practicingself-control in some other ways
.
So if you're struggling withself-control in this way, start
(25:10):
practicing some self-control inanother area of your life, such
as fasting, where you can buildsome confidence and realize that
, like you said, with the helpof your faith, the Holy Spirit,
that it is possible.
And these online groups, likeNOFAB groups I mean a lot of
their motivation for quittingporn is just productivity and
(25:33):
time efficiency.
I don't want to waste my timelooking at porn and doing other
things that are better, but whenI can be having real sex right,
that's the motivation.
For a lot of guys in thosecommunities, or for a lot of
them, it's building muscle.
They're saying like when I stoplooking at porn, I look better
in the face and I feel all thismuscle.
And what we're saying in thispodcast is that that should be
(25:54):
the tiniest fraction ofmotivation compared to.
There's a much bigger picture.
There's so much bigger joy tobe had when we seek out a whole
and healthy sexuality and whenwe're able to choose with
self-control, choose to livelives without viewing porn and
instead seeing people the waythat they're supposed to be seen
(26:16):
, the way that God sees them,like you're saying, the theology
of the body, living our lives,as we can see the theology in
the body of every single man,woman that we meet, encounter in
our day-to-day lives.
So, yeah, really powerful.
Thanks so much for being on,jonathan.
I really appreciate it.
Thanks, bill, yeah, man.
So, jonathan, how can peoplefind you and your podcast out
(26:38):
there?
Because I'd love for people tolisten to what you're doing with
these conversations that peopleare having about faith between
Christians and non-Christians.
It's so authentic and justreally great content.
How can people find you outthere and support what you're
doing?
Jonathan Storment (26:53):
Well, Bonafide good faith
conversations with JonathanStormant.
You can search that on Apple,Android, Google, wherever you
get your podcasts.
And there isbonafidesubstackcom, which is me
and this guy I went to schoolwith, who was in ministry and is
now an atheist, but we'refriends and so he has all the
(27:18):
admin permissions that I do andwe kind of write and that is a
project that is just launching,but it's kind of a long-term
project where we kind of engageeach other.
And then also I'm at PleasantValley Church of Crest in Little
Rock, if you live in CentralArkansas.
Kolton Thomas (27:39):
So yeah, come visit Jonathan, come visit his
church, support his show, leavehim a review.
I've been listening to it.
It's really benefited me,whether you're a Christian or
not a Christian.
So guys, check out more of whatJonathan's doing.
So, anyways, thanks again somuch, jonathan, for being here
and being on the show today.
You left us with so much goodwisdom and, yeah, hope to do it
(28:00):
again sometime.
Jonathan Storment (28:01):
Thanks, colton, it's great being here.
Kolton Thomas (28:03):
All right, guys, and there you have it.
Theology of the Body withJonathan Stormant.
I will leave a link in the shownotes if you want to go check
out Jonathan's podcast.
I would highly recommend it ifyou want to hear honest
conversations between atheistsor agnostics and Christians, and
also be on the lookout for asecond episode I will release
with Jonathan where we dive evenfurther into Christianity and
(28:25):
history and how Christianity hasshaped sex ethics over time.
It's a fascinating conversationand it has a lot of relevant,
practical information we can useif we're struggling to overcome
pornography in our lives.
So thanks again, guys, forlistening to the Reclaimed and
Unashamed podcast.
We'll see you in the next one.
Have a great day.
(28:48):
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Thanks so much, guys, you rock.
Get out there, be resilient,live porn-free.
(29:30):
We'll see you next time.
Welcome to the Reclaimed and Unashamed podcast
where we are helping men torewire their brains and overcome
the shame that often surroundsunwanted pornography use.
I'm your host, colton Thomas,and today you're listening to
episode 16 with special guestJonathan Stormant.
Now, I first heard Jonathanwhen I was listening to his
sermon series online calledTheology of the Body.
(00:25):
Now, theology of the Body is aseries of writings done by
Catholic Pope John Paul II, andI don't think that Jonathan
identifies as Catholic, butthese writings were so
influential for him he did aseries on them at his church.
So I invited him on the podcastto talk about Theology of the
Body, which means that today'sepisode is going to be more
theological.
We're going to be talking fromthe Bible, particularly the
(00:47):
story of Adam and Eve, a lot,but the best way I can introduce
Jonathan or explain why I'veinvited him onto the show is
actually to show you a clip ofhim speaking in one of his
sermons on Theology of the Body.
So I want you to give this alisten.
Who he's talking about here isAdam and Eve, and what he says
here is basically what we'regoing to break down in the rest
of the podcast episode in ourinterview we're going to go into
(01:08):
more details, so check this out.
Jonathan Storment (01:10):
But this is the case of original goodness,
and what it means is that, whenthey don't feel shame, it means
they know they properly imageGod in every part of their body,
and their body is a gift thatthey give to one another,
because the body is female, iswitness to creation being a gift
(01:31):
and our origin being love.
Adam isn't driven by instincts.
He recognizes the goodness ofher body, is an image of God and
was compelled to offer himselfas a gift to her, and she was
compelled to offer herself as agift to him, and together they
reflect the inner life of God,this self emptying, self
(01:51):
donating, always giving,receiving life of God.
God revealed himself in Jesusand in your body, god.
Here's what this means, y'all,in a secular world where it's so
hard to believe in God thereare hundreds of image bearers of
God in this room it's hard forme not to believe in God.
(02:13):
God has revealed himself, andhe's not some slave driver, he's
not some tyrant, he's not someold angry man in the sky.
God is an external exchange oflove, and he made us to share in
that exchange, in fact, yourdeepest romantic impulses, no
matter what you do, whether youchoose to be single and celibate
(02:35):
or to be married and given yourlife as a gift to your spouse.
Your deepest impulses are givenby God and the way to happiness
is by embracing the goodness ofyour body and welcoming that
gift and imitating God.
Which means we have restraint.
(02:56):
We are not like the animals.
We can say no, we don't have todownload that app, we don't
have to go to that website, wedon't have to go to that club.
But the reason you're drawn toit is because the way men and
women compliment each otherphysically is a way it shows the
nature of God.
Kolton Thomas (03:17):
Wow, guys, I think that message is so true
and important, and so, withoutfurther ado, here's Jonathan
Stormant.
We are going to unpack theologyof the body.
All right, jonathan Stormant,thanks so much for being on the
Reclaim Podcast today.
Jonathan Storment (03:31):
Well, thanks for having me, Kolton.
Kolton Thomas (03:32):
Yeah, so glad to have you, man.
We've connected for a number ofreasons.
You are actually local in mytown and I have so many friends
that are connected with you,that see you as a mentor.
And you started doing your ownpodcast not long ago called
Bonafide, and these areconversations about faith or
(03:53):
individuals who are strugglingwith faith or have walked away
from the faith, and there'sthese very authentic
conversations.
So I've been listening to yourpodcast.
It's got me thinking deeply, andthen I've also listened to some
of the presentations you've puttogether when it comes to
theology and the body, and Ijust thought you did an
incredible job with this, so Iwanted to have you on the
podcast and talk about how allthese messages relate to the
(04:17):
struggle and depravity thatwe're seeing in our culture when
it comes to sex and sexualityand men struggling with porn.
So do you want to start justsharing a little bit about
yourself and also how you cameabout teaching and preaching on
these particular subjects?
Jonathan Storment (04:34):
Yeah, sure.
So I, born and raised inArkansas, went to Harding, got a
degree in ministry, then apastor in Texas for 16 years and
spent a lot of time withcollege students.
So worked in a college town,worked as a college minister,
(04:54):
and I noticed something inaround 2003 that a lot of the
people that had grown up inchurch, that went to Harding
with me or that I'd known foryears they were in ministry,
were not just walking away fromministry but church and, in
(05:15):
particular, faith in God.
Some of that's because of 9-11,and often it was men who were
bristling at the Christian kindof sexual ethic that was handed
down to them.
And some of that was very heavyhanded, like purity culture,
which affected men and women,but probably women a lot more.
(05:37):
But anyway.
So there's a reaction to thatand over the last 20 years I've
been trying to make sense of myfriends and the world that we
live in.
And so theology of the body,which is actually Pope John Paul
II.
What's interesting about PopeJohn Paul II this was in the
(05:58):
1970s is that when people hearCatholic talking about theology
of the body, they assume, oh,another cranky old man get off
my line, kind of thing.
But he was not just respondingto the sexual revolution, he was
also responding to theHolocaust, because both of those
(06:21):
things were done with a veryspecific vision of what a human
body is worth, and the tone ofthe theology of the body is not
wagging your finger at how,shame on you.
It's more embrace your Godgiven dignity.
(06:43):
And I found it so compellingbecause I have for years been
trying to figure out where isthe grounding for human value
and dignity.
Kolton Thomas (06:57):
Explain what the theology of the body is as well
for listeners.
Is it a book or is it a seriesof articles that the Pope wrote?
What is the theology of thebody and what are the main
points?
What's the highlight?
Jonathan Storment (07:09):
So it's very much scripture based.
So, for example, if you grew upin church or just in America,
you're probably familiar withthe story of Adam and Eve and
the creation story.
But if you pay attention toGenesis 2, there's some stuff
that's happening there that I'venever heard anybody talk about.
So Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 aretwo different creation stories.
(07:33):
Genesis 1 is like a 50,000 footview, genesis 2 is like a kind
of close up.
And in Genesis 2, god createsAdam, and that word doesn't mean
male, it means human being.
So there is no male and femaleat this point, it's just one
human being.
And as soon as God creates Adam, it's this weird story of like
(07:57):
a discovery channel happensright afterwards.
So God brings the parade ofanimals to Adam to find a
suitable helper, which is likeweird.
So Adam is going to have Adamname the animals and look for a
partner.
Which?
have you ever heard a sermon onthat?
It's a weird story, but what ishappening in that is God is
(08:20):
letting them see that they aredifferent, that human being is
different, that Adam is alone inthe universe, he's unlike the
animals, and the word for thatsolitude that we feel is person.
You know, all of God'screatures deserve special
(08:41):
respect, but God made humanbeings different.
Scientists wrestle with, likehuman consciousness or whatever,
but the distinction betweenhuman beings and animals is that
we have freedom.
We are free to love, to chooseor not choose love.
And then, after Adam realizesthis, god puts him into a deep
(09:06):
sleep and splits the Adam andmakes them male and female.
And when they first see eachother this naked, two naked
people in a garden Adam breaksinto poetry like, starts singing
and he says this is bone in mybone and flesh in my flesh.
(09:27):
So what happens in the creationof male and female is now that
word is that she is opposite andsame, like she is my opposite,
but yet we're complement oneanother.
So here's a better way to saythis A man's body doesn't make
(09:48):
sense by itself.
A woman's body doesn't makesense by itself.
They were made for each other.
Or to say another way, a man'sbody is complete in all systems
except one.
A female's body is complete inall systems except one, and when
(10:09):
they come together, in thenatural course of events, they
create a third.
In other words, the genders arenot competitive, they are
generative, and I use that wordgenerate like genitals, generous
generation.
When a man and woman make love,they actually make something
(10:32):
and in the natural course ofevents, these two come together
and make a third.
And this is where theology, thebody, comes in, just like the
three in one God that wethatmade us.
So when God says let us makehuman beings in our own image,
(10:52):
who's he talking to?
Well, christians havehistorically understood that to
be kind of precursor of what wenow consider the three in one
God, a God who is alwaysself-empting, self-donating,
others, focused, pointing away.
And what this means is thatwhen a man and woman in a
(11:15):
marriage covenant, when theygive themselves to each other,
they are imaging the very innerlife of God.
So that's theology of the bodyand there's a lot more to this.
But like there's a goodness inthe end of Genesis 2.
It says in the man and womanwere naked and they felt no
(11:38):
shame.
And I'm probably talking topeople who have a lot of shame I
have my own too.
The reason we all have thatinstinct is because we know
inherently our body is good andit's not meant to be used and so
flip that.
And that's what Adam and Eveare feeling.
(11:58):
They know their inherentgoodness of their body, that it
images God, that it literallylike their body.
We try to treat all thosesexual descriptions of Hosea and
song of songs.
We try to treat that like it'sa metaphor.
(12:20):
So your body is actually a waythat you image.
You literally image a divinereality.
So there's an inherent goodnessto your body.
And the thing that I love themost about Theology of the Body
is Pope John Paul would sayrepeatedly your body, and only
(12:44):
your body, can make theinvisible visible, and this is
Scripture 1 John 420,.
No one has seen God, but youhave seen your brother or sister
.
How can you say I love God andhate your brother or sister?
If you do that, then you're aliar, because your body images
(13:07):
God and so it makes theinvisible visible.
Kolton Thomas (13:11):
Yeah, I had a few thoughts from what you were
sharing there.
So what does this mean when weengage in something like
pornography?
What's it doing to this?
We have this image that youjust painted for us.
We have this painting of howsex is about something greater
than us.
It's, like you said, becausewe're made in the image of God.
There are theological thingshappening in the way that we
(13:36):
interact and join with theopposite sex, and so, when we
look at things that way, thenwhat does it mean when we're
using pornography?
Jonathan Storment (13:45):
Well, I mean, I think it means we're thirsty.
I do think you know I'm a mantoo, so it's not like this has
not been a part of my struggleand accountability groups and
you know all those kind ofthings, so I'm not coming in as
just some ivory tower expert atall.
(14:06):
I'm doing this because of that,in my years of pastoring and in
my years as being a man.
What I think it does, though,is it slowly takes away the very
thing it promises, like allidolatry.
So you know, like you weretalking about, you could find
(14:27):
doctors to say all the socialbenefits of pornography.
Well, I can give you one ofthem, and that's that the amount
of teenagers having sex hasgone down for the first time
since they started measuringthis in the last 100 years, and
at first you're like, oh well,there's a revival, and then
you're like, oh no, it's becausea bunch of 18 year old dudes
have erectile dysfunction,because they have been discipled
(14:51):
in pornography.
So let me do this.
So the people who first readGenesis, when they first read it
, when the serpent comes in andsays, did God really say you
would really die if you eat fromthis?
The people who first heard thatstory and read that story would
have thought at first glancethat God was lying and that the
(15:13):
serpent was telling the truth.
We're so kind of into the storyit's hard for us to read it
with fresh eyes.
But you see that right, likethe serpent says, you won't die.
They eat the fruit and thenthey don't die, like nothing
really happens.
They get kicked out of thegarden but they don't die.
And then decades come.
(15:34):
Later, cain reaches up andkills Abel and all of a sudden
Adam and Eve are the first onesto realize this universal truth.
There is often a gap between thechoice and the consequences,
and so sexual liberation.
(15:55):
I don't know of anybody whowalks away from God, church,
jesus or even their own like,conscious or morality.
I don't know of anybody whodoesn't.
When they first get throughthat, there the universal
feeling tends to be I'm free,I'm free, I can, you know,
master of my fate, captain of mysoul.
(16:15):
But ideas have consequences,and consequences take a while to
develop.
And so there's a reason thatthe Christian sexual revolution,
that the Christian sexual ethicwas so appealing in the first
century, and it's because thepeople who lived in that world
were hungry for something better.
And because we have largelytaken the kind of Christian
(16:39):
ethic for granted.
We see it stodgy and oppressive.
We can't see all theconsequences that it has helped
us save ourselves from.
So and we were talking offlineabout- that.
Rahm and Roheiser quote aboutshow me one culture in human
civilization, ever, in anycivilization, any society ever
(17:01):
that got this right.
You know when people are beingpessimistic about the Christian
ethic, you know I want to sayjust well, show me, show me
where anybody got it right, everright, because there's no
evidence.
You know, we have all theseutopias in our head, but this is
such a powerful thing inside ofevery one of us and the draw
for this is so powerful, and sois the potential for it's kind
(17:25):
of like nitroglycerin this canheal a heart below the bridge.
It's very powerful.
Kolton Thomas (17:33):
Yeah, it's sexuality is nuclear and its
effect.
You know, I thought your pointabout porn slowly taking away
the very things that it promisesover time, more and more.
I think that's a reallyprofound concept that I think
men who are struggling with thisneed to dwell on and to
recognize that there's that gap.
So they may not be feeling awhole lot of immediate pain and
(17:56):
consequences now, but we know,because history has taught us
and even our own experience hastaught us, that those
consequences from viewingpornography over years are
coming, and so I think there's ahealthy fear and motivation
there.
There doesn't need to be anenormous amount of shame Because
, like we talked about, whatyou're really looking for is God
.
Your desire underneath it allis not something to be ashamed
(18:20):
of that desire to search formeaning and comfort that's not
evil in and of itself, but torecognize right now at all, yeah
but recognize there will beconsequences coming, and that
porn will slowly take away thosethings that promises, I think,
is a really great point.
So in wrapping up the episode,how do we get it right?
(18:43):
Like what you know and I knowthere's so much that could be
said here but like what's thegreater vision?
You know, you're just talkingabout the theology of the body
and you were, you were hittingon that some.
But like, yeah, what's better?
Jonathan Storment (18:55):
than pornography?
Great question.
So you know, pornography isjust a poor substitute for
actual sex, but sex itself isn'tgoing to scratch that edge.
So here's the answer to what Ithink you're trying to.
You're asking me You've have to, in the words of CS Lewis,
(19:16):
chase the sun beam back to thesun.
Let's say you're just astereotypical male and you feel
so sexually attracted to a woman.
Well, part of part of what thatis and this is, you know,
christian theology, the body 101is you are looking for your
(19:38):
eternal opposite.
Like there's this incompletenessin me and in you and you're
looking for that and chasingthat sun beam back to the sun.
Okay, let me answer it likethis.
There's a parable of twobishops who are walking down the
(19:58):
street.
They see this scantily cladprostitute, and one of the
bishop, when he sees her, hequickly turns his eyes, which
you know, I was raised doingthat.
You know.
Bounce your eyes, take custodyof your eyes.
Joe, make a covenant not to getlooked less likely at a woman,
right?
(20:18):
So he does that.
But the other bishop doesn't dothat.
The other bishop stares, and sothe first bishop who turned his
eyes, when he realizes that thesecond bishop is staring, he's
like hey, come on Cheating.
And then the other yeah, theother bishop actually turns back
and he's got tears running downhis face and he says it's so
(20:42):
sad that such beauty is beingsold to the lust of men.
And that first bishop whobounced his eyes I think maybe a
lot of us are in a season wherewe we need to do that but that
second bishop had learned how tochase the sun beam.
And that story is not a parable.
(21:04):
That's a true story of a guynamed Saint Saint Nannis of
Edessa, and the harlot was namedPelagia.
And because of the way thatSaint Nannis looked at her with
love and delight.
She noticed because men didn'tlook at her like that, and so
she started talking to him, andtoday she is known as Saint
(21:25):
Pelagia of Antioch.
Wow, and you can't.
You know, those kind of storiesare inspiring, but you can't
get there without the HolySpirit and practicing the
presence of God.
And so you asked earlier what Iwould say to somebody who is
just in it right now.
You know, my very first thingwould be you need to fast from
(21:49):
food.
That's something from thedesert fathers on.
If you are struggling withhuman weakness and not being
able to tell your body no, thenyou need to come at the sideways
and fast.
You know, learn how to practiceself-control with the help of
(22:10):
the Holy Spirit.
So, you know, skip eating oneor two days a week and just turn
your thoughts and attentionback to prayer, because you'll
begin to be able to practiceself-control.
That's good.
I would also think and I'm sureother people have talked about
(22:31):
having accountability, maybesome intense accountability, but
what you're trying to do is beable to redirect your own soul,
to be able to attend to theworld properly and to see people
properly and it really is thebest way to joy and outside of
all the negative consequences ofporn and the personal and
(22:54):
social consequences of it.
I mean people who aren't evenbelievers, like the no-fap group
on Reddit you know thesestraight edgers or whatever.
They're seeing that.
But I'm thinking Jesus iscalling us to a much more robust
, joyful way of living thatproperly sees what we look at
(23:17):
when we see ourselves in themirror and properly sees Grandma
Betty and Pamela Anderson withthe same kind of like glory to
God, my eternal opposite, who isa full image barrier of God and
deserves great dignity, honorand respect.
Kolton Thomas (23:40):
Yeah that's good.
Yeah, how to get thought thereand I lost it.
But, yeah, you're talking.
So you're talking aboutaccountability groups and I
don't think we've talked aboutthis a whole lot, but I run an
(24:02):
online accountability group.
It's a.
It comes with like a 10 weekprogram.
There's videos, there's acourse, and then I do some
coaching.
I'm in counseling.
I don't know if you knew that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, butit's.
There's also like this onlinecommunity aspect.
But I've heard of regenerationthat you guys are doing at your
(24:23):
church and I think for some menthat doing it in person, getting
like in person accountabilitywith people who are really in
your community that you're doinglife with, can be huge, and so
anyone listening, if you'relooking to get you know serious
about accountability, look foroptions like that at your church
.
And then also there are onlineopportunities, like reclaimed,
(24:47):
that you can get plugged into aswell.
There's just a lot more outthere, a lot more resources out
there than what a lot of menrealize you just have.
You need to start looking forthem.
You need to be resourceful,take initiative, but they're out
there for you, and I appreciateyour advice that you gave to
you about considering practicingself-control in some other ways
.
So if you're struggling withself-control in this way, start
(25:10):
practicing some self-control inanother area of your life, such
as fasting, where you can buildsome confidence and realize that
, like you said, with the helpof your faith, the Holy Spirit,
that it is possible.
And these online groups, likeNOFAB groups I mean a lot of
their motivation for quittingporn is just productivity and
(25:33):
time efficiency.
I don't want to waste my timelooking at porn and doing other
things that are better, but whenI can be having real sex right,
that's the motivation.
For a lot of guys in thosecommunities, or for a lot of
them, it's building muscle.
They're saying like when I stoplooking at porn, I look better
in the face and I feel all thismuscle.
And what we're saying in thispodcast is that that should be
(25:54):
the tiniest fraction ofmotivation compared to.
There's a much bigger picture.
There's so much bigger joy tobe had when we seek out a whole
and healthy sexuality and whenwe're able to choose with
self-control, choose to livelives without viewing porn and
instead seeing people the waythat they're supposed to be seen
(26:16):
, the way that God sees them,like you're saying, the theology
of the body, living our lives,as we can see the theology in
the body of every single man,woman that we meet, encounter in
our day-to-day lives.
So, yeah, really powerful.
Thanks so much for being on,jonathan.
I really appreciate it.
Thanks, bill, yeah, man.
So, jonathan, how can peoplefind you and your podcast out
(26:38):
there?
Because I'd love for people tolisten to what you're doing with
these conversations that peopleare having about faith between
Christians and non-Christians.
It's so authentic and justreally great content.
How can people find you outthere and support what you're
doing?
Jonathan Storment (26:53):
Well, Bonafide good faith
conversations with JonathanStormant.
You can search that on Apple,Android, Google, wherever you
get your podcasts.
And there isbonafidesubstackcom, which is me
and this guy I went to schoolwith, who was in ministry and is
now an atheist, but we'refriends and so he has all the
(27:18):
admin permissions that I do andwe kind of write and that is a
project that is just launching,but it's kind of a long-term
project where we kind of engageeach other.
And then also I'm at PleasantValley Church of Crest in Little
Rock, if you live in CentralArkansas.
Kolton Thomas (27:39):
So yeah, come visit Jonathan, come visit his
church, support his show, leavehim a review.
I've been listening to it.
It's really benefited me,whether you're a Christian or
not a Christian.
So guys, check out more of whatJonathan's doing.
So, anyways, thanks again somuch, jonathan, for being here
and being on the show today.
You left us with so much goodwisdom and, yeah, hope to do it
(28:00):
again sometime.
Jonathan Storment (28:01):
Thanks, colton, it's great being here.
Kolton Thomas (28:03):
All right, guys, and there you have it.
Theology of the Body withJonathan Stormant.
I will leave a link in the shownotes if you want to go check
out Jonathan's podcast.
I would highly recommend it ifyou want to hear honest
conversations between atheistsor agnostics and Christians, and
also be on the lookout for asecond episode I will release
with Jonathan where we dive evenfurther into Christianity and
(28:25):
history and how Christianity hasshaped sex ethics over time.
It's a fascinating conversationand it has a lot of relevant,
practical information we can useif we're struggling to overcome
pornography in our lives.
So thanks again, guys, forlistening to the Reclaimed and
Unashamed podcast.
We'll see you in the next one.
Have a great day.
(28:48):
If you enjoyed listening totoday's interview, you can help
me move mountains by taking acouple minutes of your time and
supporting the podcast.
There's a couple of key waysyou can do that.
One it's really easy you canleave a review for the podcast.
A lot of times, when it comesto reviews, people tend to take
time to leave negative ones butnot positive ones.
But you can help change thatand leave a positive review for
(29:10):
this podcast if it's making adifference in your life.
The second thing you can do isyou can contribute financially
and you can help me in creatingmore high quality, well
researched content andinterviews.
So you can find a link tosupport us through PayPal or
Patreon in the show notes.
Thanks so much, guys, you rock.
Get out there, be resilient,live porn-free.
(29:30):
We'll see you next time.
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