Ep. 72 with Dr. Michelle Haggerty | Founder & CEO, Fourth Trimester Doc - Reclaiming Your Hue: A Podcast for Women Rediscovering Themselves in Motherhood & Entrepreneurship

Episode Transcript
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Kelly (00:00):
Good morning, Michelle.

Michelle H. (00:02):
Good morning.

Kelly (00:03):
How are you?
I'm great.
Fabulous.
I'm so happy that you're here.
I'm so excited to be here.
I'm just really thrilled.
Yes, this is gonna be awesome.
Well, and for the listeners, wetalked, gosh, how many months
ago was it?
I was trying to think.
I was it four?
Probably four months ago.
Maybe longer.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And before the summer.
This is actually a really nicelead into the question that I

(00:27):
start off with all of my guests,which is how is it that you and
I know one another?
Do you remember how we gotconnected?
Uh-oh, I'm on the spot.

Uh no, we got connected.
Well, it was through somebody.
It was another person who hadconnected us.
No, I'm not remembering off thetop of my head now.
Courtney Tanaka.

Kelly (00:47):
Yes.
With Renew Me PT.
Yes, with PT.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
She's my physical therapist, bythe way.
And she's also um, so we wehave known each other for years
and years and years.
We met at a wedding of a mutualfriend and stayed like got
connected on Facebook.
Yeah.
But other than that, we didn'tspeak for years.

(01:07):
Like it was just like, hey, hi,we I enjoy you, you enjoy me at
a wedding.
And then sure enough, she endedup quitting what she was doing
with um corporate healthcare.

Yes, yes, yes.

Kelly (01:21):
And then made the full swing into entrepreneurship.
And she saw what I was doingwith the podcast and reached
out.
Yeah.
And then she was like, Oh, I'vegot some amazing people that
you have to connect with, youbeing one of them.
Well, she is a great connector.
Yeah.

Shout out, seriously, shout out to her
because she um we we've had someincredible conversations and
really um yeah, feel veryaligned on many things.
So it's been, yeah.
Yeah, she's great.

Kelly (01:45):
She's a rock star, and I'm so excited to hear and see
how she really fine-tuneseverything with her business.
Completely.
And she's already doing an abang up job with harmonizing it
with motherhood.
So she's been on the podcasttoo.
Yes, yes, yeah.
Okay, so that is how we knowone another.

(02:05):
Tell us and tell the listenerswhat came first for you.
Was it motherhood or was itentrepreneurship?
And then let's dive into whatit is that you do and how you
got to what you're doing today.
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, it was motherhood.

Motherhood came first.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Um, how many kiddos do youhave?
So I have three birthside andtwo angel babies.
So I lost my first and then Ihad my first birthside, and then
I had another loss, and then Ihad another baby.
And then my third, I expectedto have another loss before
having my third, just because Iwas like, that was my pattern.

(02:42):
Um, and then um, nope, my thirdstuck around.
So yeah.

Kelly (02:46):
Interesting that you had that thought pattern in your
head.
You know what I mean?

I was very much expecting it.
My I my husband was as well.
Um, and so when we were sort oftrying and ready for our third,
we're like, well, we shouldprobably start trying now
because we know we'll have aloss and then we'll have, you
know, so we should sort of havethe spacing.
And no, that's not whathappens.

Kelly (03:05):
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So I know that I had sort ofguided you through like
answering this first questionand then sharing with the
listeners what it is that you'redoing and how you got there.
Yeah.
But I want to dive into thisarea of loss as well.
Yes.
Um, I do want to just sort ofbring the listeners along on the

(03:26):
journey as well.
So when did you decide to movefrom what you were doing to
starting your entrepreneurialbusiness?
When was that?
Was like what year or was itlike in between babies?

Was it after all?
It was in between kiddos.
Yep.
So I started uh my practice in2020.
Um, and so that was between mysecond and my third.
Okay.
Um, so yeah.
Okay.
Um and sort of the vision of itactually started when I was
pregnant with my first um myearth, I must my second

(04:04):
pregnancy.
Um, that's where sort of thevision of the practice started,
but I didn't really sort oflaunch into it until a couple
years later.

Kelly (04:12):
Okay.
Yeah.
We're gonna dive into this.
So um what was the triggerpoint for you in terms of the
why behind wanting to createwhat you have now?

Yeah, absolutely.
Um, so the why was sort of alittle background.
So I'm a physician, um, familymedicine physician, um, and I
worked in a um federallyqualified health center
immediately after graduatingfrom residency.
Um, for those who don't know, afederally qualified health
center is a clinic thatbasically is a catch-all.

(04:44):
So they we see everyone from umfrom various countries, from
various backgrounds, from umvarious economics, so
socioeconomic statuses.
Um sort of if you had insuranceor didn't, we saw you.
And um, so it was a reallydiverse patient population and
really lovely and wonderful.
Where was this?
North Minneapolis.
Okay.
And um I loved working there.

(05:05):
However, I was sort of feelinglike um I sort of felt like a uh
on the hamster wheel,basically.
So I felt like I was just sortof going through the motions of
seeing patients and not reallydoing the work that I had
intended to go into medicinefor.
Um, so then uh when I gotpregnant, I sort of was
realizing what this system wasdoing to people who are pregnant

(05:29):
or who have had babies.

Speaker 3 (05:30):
Yeah.

Um, and the lack of care and the lack of support
people truly did have.
And so I, you know, as I wasgoing through my own personal
pregnancy, um, actually I shouldstart with the the loss, the
the uh my first loss, uh um, wenamed her Olive.
Um, and so with her, sh I um Ihad this, I had the miscarriage
and I ended up ended up having aum uh D and Eve is basically

(05:55):
where they do the procedure toremove the products.
And um it was it was considereda miss miscarriage, meaning
that I didn't we I didn't haveuh bleeding on my own.
I sort of they had to removethe pregnancy itself.
And um I uh they found that itwas uh considered a partial
molar pregnancy, meaning that itwas something that um the

(06:16):
tissue from the pregnancy wasgrowing abnormally.
And with that, it can actuallytransition into cancer.
So what I had to do then is Ihad to go into the into the
clinic every once a week formonths and get um hormone levels
tested to make sure that theywere continuing to decrease and
I wasn't getting it wasn'ttransitioning into cancer.

(06:36):
Um so I would have to walk intoa clinic full of pregnant
people for months, every singleweek, and see you know, these
people who are very pregnant andgoing through their journeys
and just being basicallytortured every week and going
into this into this um space.
Um and I so it started there.
I was like, why can't somebody,why do I have to go into this

(06:59):
space to get this done?
Why can't I why can't somebodycome to me?
Why can't I go into um I guessa lab somewhere else?
Like, why do I have to be in aspace where I'm visually
tortured every single week tosort of remind myself that I'm
no longer pregnant and I couldbe like these other women that
are there?
Um, so that's where it started.

(07:20):
It really started in the spaceof like we are not doing justice
to people who are going throughthese, you know, this these
life experiences.
And I was postpartum.
Like I was pregnant and nolonger pregnant anymore.
So I was going through my ownhormonal hormonal shifts and
things as well.
And that was not beingrecognized, or I mean, I was I
felt completely alone,completely isolated.

(07:41):
And and then the other uhthought or the other sort of
thing around that was was I amother?
I had gone through, I didn'thave a baby in my arms.
I had gone through the wholeprocess of planning a life
around this baby, and making,you know, telling my family,
telling me your friends, beingsuper excited about this
pregnancy and feeling this loveand connection to this being and

(08:04):
this soul that was part of mybody.
Um and you know, but was Idefined as a mother then?
Because I didn't have anyonethat was I was in my I was in my
arms at that point.
I think I absolutely was, and Idefined myself as that.
Yeah.
Um, and but trying to sort ofpresent that to the world was
very different as well, right?

(08:25):
Um, and I still say I motherthose babies, and those babies
are still part of my life, andthey are they are they're my
guiding souls, and they are so apart of this this journey.
And so that's why I name them.
That's why we we talk aboutthem, you know, on holidays and
we we celebrate them.
And my my all my boys know thatthey have two sisters and um
that they're like and they'rethe ones that guided them into
this world.
And um, I I 100% know that I'velike birthed them into you

(08:50):
know, sort of my space and my umuh my my world, my world, yeah,
but not this world.

Kelly (08:56):
I sort of had this um epiphany.
I'm reading, have you ever readthe emotion code?
No emotional code.
Um so it talks about how ourbody um holds on to negativity
and how that can translate intophysical and emotional pain.

Speaker 3 (09:18):
Yeah.

Kelly (09:19):
And um, the individual who who wrote the book, the the
author is escaping me right now.
So sorry, listeners, but I'llmake sure to drop this into the
show notes.
Um he talked about how, andhe's a man of faith, right?
So he very much gave this veryinteresting perspective about
how the body is energy,absolutely.

(09:41):
Like and it's our souls withinwe have uh our souls, and then
the body is just essentially thetemple that we our souls are
kept in.

Speaker 3 (09:52):
Completely.

Kelly (09:53):
And he backs this up with science-based facts about um if
science scientists haveactually um, I promise, like
this ties in.
Okay, we're gonna we're gonnalove this.
Bear with me.
Scientists at one point studiedum energy field around a leaf.

(10:14):
And when the leaf was cut inhalf, they could still see the
outline of the whole leaf, theenergy field around the whole
leaf.
Fascinating, huh?

Speaker 3 (10:26):
Fascinating.

Kelly (10:26):
So in my head, immediately when you like you
proposed this question about howwhether you were a mother or
not, well, you had a soul withinyou.
And whether whether that soulwas birthed from you or was
within you, it doesn't matter.
You were a mom for sure.
Exactly.

(10:47):
Exactly.
I would 100% back that up.
Fight me about it, people.
Fight me about it.

I call I call our bodies our meat suit.
It is our um, it it that's whatit sort of like gets us
through, you know, the world andthings.
Um, but it's I love it.
It's quite but it's it is ourenergy and our soul is what what
makes us, right?
Um and we want to be nice toour meat suits.
We want to be kind to them tohelp them sort of like go move

(11:13):
along through life.

Kelly (11:13):
But it was a little bit of that too, like, oh, I should
really be nicer to my body, bothin like a mindset, yeah, a
mindset thought process, butthen also what I'm fueling it
with.
Right.
Right, my soil just loves whenI fuel the body in all the right
ways, and it does not when it'sthe opposite.

Yes, no, exactly.
Um, the other thing I want towell bring up with that too,
though, is that there is there'sa word for it.
I'm blanking completely on it.
Well, again, maybe in the shownotes we can drop it in.
But um, the uh whenever wecarry uh a baby in our um within
our bodies, actually leaveparts of them into the the

(11:53):
maternal body.
Um there's there's cells thatare left then.
Um so we are actually made upof our babies as well.
So my babies are always evenpart of my meat suit, right?
Like even that beyond even mysoul, you know, and my and the
energy with it.
So um, so yeah, absolutely theyare.

Kelly (12:13):
Do you remember when we were talking, our initial like
Zoom conversation?
And I was like, I'm obsessedwith what you're doing,
Michelle.
Because I, you know, I had theintroduction, like Courtney was
like, You need to meet Dr.
Michelle Haggerty.
And so I and she had mentionedthe name of your business, which
is Fourth Trimester Doc.

(12:35):
Fourth trimester doc.
And I was like, Yes.
And so I started like lookingthrough your website and stuff,
and I came upon one of yourpages that had brought up this
process of matrescence.
Yes, yes, and I think about thematrescence in respect to what

(12:56):
you're speaking to with 100% howthe cells of our children stay
with us.
Oh, yeah.
No wonder there's this massivetransition from you know, for
your first initially not havinga child to then all of a sudden
having a child, and then nobodyis talking about this process of

(13:22):
the fourth trimester.
Yes, right.
I should say, I should back up.
Initially, I do feel as if it'ssort of catching fire, you
know, like the wind has pickedup and the fire of the fourth
trimester is starting to spread.
It's starting to spread.
Yes, exactly.
But I would love for you tospeak to the term matrescence.

(13:46):
Um, we talked through thisversus like adolescence, right?
Yes.
So why don't you go ahead andshare what it is um like the
definition of matrescence?

Yeah, so the um the definition actually comes
from uh an anthropologist, um,Dr.
Dina Raphael, um, who um wasactually I'm not sure if she's a
PhD.
I'm thinking about it.
She might just be Dina, notDoctor.
She might be Dana Raphael.

Kelly (14:18):
But it would be nice in this moment.
Do you ever watch Joe Rogan, bythe way?
Yes.
And he's got his um person,Jesse, Jesse?
I I think like whoever theperson there's like up there
doing the research.
He's like, hey, can you justlook up?
I'm like, I want somebody likethat, right?

Give us the deeds.
Um, so but she was the one thatcoined the term um matrescence.
And she actually also, um,interestingly enough, coined the
term doula as well.
So she's sort of got this likeread meaning, yeah, um, sort of
historical, you know, um aspectwith it from this.
Um, but so uh it was originallycoined in the like 1970s, and

(14:56):
then just sat dormant forforever.

Kelly (14:59):
And then much like many things with women and completely
like who cares about that,right?

Um, and which is what sort of society sort of
puts out there, and um and thenit was uh re-sort of brought
into the mainstream and um by ananthro by a um sorry
psychologist um from Columbia,and she sort of brought this
back into um the world.
Um and basically matrescence isa uh the the definition is

(15:29):
truly just the birth of amother.
Um, but to me it means so muchmore than that.
Um, and it sort of brings backto, you know, was I a mother or
not?
This whole idea behind Ipersonally believe this birth of
a mother comes from when youfirst even start thinking about
if you want to be a mother.
Is this something that you evenwant to do want to be a parent?

(15:50):
Um, because at even at thatpoint, you are making decisions
that shift your life.
You are making healthdecisions, you may start taking
prenatal vitamins, you may starteating healthier, you may start
being more um in tune with theenvironment or the world, or
maybe even becoming morepolitical because you're worried
about what the politicalclimate is looking like.
Um, you may even, you know,talk to doctors about fertility

(16:11):
and um and things like that.
So you motherhood starts waybefore even having a baby, years
before, years before.
Um and uh and so to me thatthere's it's this journey, this
huge process that reallyhappens.
And it's not just this timingof like the birth, it's like
this, you know, this this wholeexperience.

(16:32):
Um, and it continues obviouslymuch further after the birth.
Yeah.
So um, so yeah, so I think thatthere's there's so much more to
be be said and sort of talkabout with this this sort of
idea and experience.
But matrescence in um it rhymeswith adolescence, as you said.
So that's an easy way to sortof remember how to how to um

(16:52):
phrase it.
But it's it's this this shiftin our emotions, our physical,
our um psychological, thehormones, the again, the
environmental, how we interactwith our environment, financial,
right?
So you start thinking about howyour finances are different.
Um there's, you know, you howyou present to the world, how

(17:14):
the world sees you.
All of these things happen, andit's just this huge
transformation that occurs andreally very similar to
adolescence, where inadolescence, you know, we we
recognize and acknowledge thatthere's a lot of shifts that
happen during that stage, right?

Speaker 3 (17:28):
Yes.

Um and there's a lot of research around that
stage, and there's a lot of umuh even there's there's whole
you know, uh professions aroundspecifically focused in that.
Um, but the same isn't true inmatrescence, and um, and there's
just sort of this loss of, andwhich is why I think people feel
so isolated and um and feelsort of uh you know shunned from

(17:51):
like the evangelical medicalcommunity, and it just feels
like people are sort of put outto the side when they they're
going through this whole hugetransformation.
And to your point, I do thinkthat's shifting.
I think that there's morepeople that are speaking out and
and sort of demanding that careand that support and and
frankly the the research aroundit.
Yeah.

Kelly (18:09):
Um Do you know Katie Sievert with Let's Talk Women?
Yes, okay.
So she's also she's interviewedhere on the podcast, and um,
she threw out some prettystaggering statistics in terms
of just the the lack ofinformation and um sort of

(18:33):
science backing of like womenand supporting women and women's
health.
And it's fascinating to me.
And I think a lot of whatyou're doing ties incredibly
with what she is talking throughand um having people come on
for panels and stuff, and so um,you know, another little tie-in
to just serving women, yes,yes, continuing to like serve

(18:59):
women the best way that we canin the current moment, in the
current environment and economicum environment that we're in.

Yes, completely, completely.
And and and and we matter,right?
Like our, you know, um forhaving mothers leave um the
workplace, having mothers uhdie, frankly, is a huge, has a
huge effect on our economy.
And there even that is notbeing addressed, right?
Um and so, and and you know, wetalk about statistics.

(19:29):
I mean, when you're when we'relooking at maternal health and
the the statistics around thatin the United States
specifically, it's astoundingwhat we're dealing with and why
it's not being addressed.
I'm gonna throw out some foryou because I don't know if she
talked about this, but we'll addit.
Um so in the United States, wehave the highest maternal
mortality rate amongst developedcountries in the world, the

(19:51):
highest.
So we are spending umpteenbillions of dollars on health,
but yet our mothers are dying,right?
The highest.

Kelly (19:59):
How is this possible?

Yeah.

Kelly (20:01):
I mean, one has to ask that and beg that question.

We can talk through that because I think
there's there's some obviousreasons why and what's what's
why this is happening, and sortof what I'm doing to try and
combat that.
Um, so highest maternalmortality rate in uh amongst
developing countries, um, oramongst developed countries in
the world.
Um, and then of that, um, 65%of maternal deaths happen

(20:27):
postpartum.
So not during the pregnancywhen we have, you know, 13, 14,
15 different visits during thepregnancy, not during the birth
when everyone's so hyper focusedon all the things that you know
could go wrong in the birth andum making sure that you know
the people are um surviving thebirth, right?
Yeah um, and you know, sothat's that's a time that we

(20:47):
have 24-hour care and people arein the hospital and they're
sort of getting all this thissupport.
It's postpartum when peoplehave one postpartum visit as six
weeks postpartum.
So let's talk about right whywhy because people are not being
seen, they're not beingacknowledged, they're not being
supported.
So then the next statistic thatwill go with that is that 85%

(21:08):
of those maternal deaths, thosedeaths that happen, 85% are
preventable.
Okay, 85% are consideredpreventable.
So we've got these 65% of postof deaths happening postpartum,
85% considered preventable.
Again, if somebody had seenthem, if somebody had listened
to them, if somebody hadacknowledged what they're going

(21:29):
through and the huge shift theirbodies are, you know, their
bodies, their minds, and all thethings that they're going the
matrescence for sure, they wouldbe alive.

Kelly (21:39):
Okay.
I have questions.
Yeah.
So do you know like above andbeyond those statistics, the
reasonings behind those deaths?

So the number one reason is is mental health.
I want this is why I asked thequestion.
Right.
Um, if you break it downactually by um by race, uh, it
actually breaks down a littledifferently.
Um the uh BIPOC uh community,they tend to have actually more

(22:12):
um issues with uh like clots andcardiovascular issues and
things like that.
Um so their number one is alittle different.
But if you look at the wholepicture, it's um and and
typically white people have umit's maternal health or some
mental health.
Mental health side of it.
Um so yeah, but there is sothere is, we're not

(22:34):
acknowledging again, theseshifts are happening and seeing
um, you know, what we can do toprevent.
So with cardiovascular things,like we should be people need
physical exams.
They need to be seen, they needto be, you know, if you're
having um, you know, swelling inyour leg, it's not just because
of postpartum, it could bebecause you have a clot there.
It could be you're getting, youknow, if you're having trouble

(22:54):
breathing, it could be you havea clot in your lung.
If you're having, it's not justyou know, being tired, right?

Speaker 3 (23:00):
Yeah.

Um, if you are you could be having um uh uh
congestive heart failure aswell.
There's there's heart failureat postpartum.
And um, and again, it's notjust because you're you're
tired.

Kelly (23:11):
It's yeah, it's like there's other things that are
happening.
What's the timeline of of theseum postpartum deaths that
occur?
Is it within a data should isup to a year, is what they're
looking at.

Um, of course, there's other things that happen
after a year, but um, but it'sreally that first year is the
one that's that's okay thehighest risk.
Um so yeah, there's there's somany things that we could be
doing to support people in thisspace and it's not just seeing
them one time for a 10-minutevisit.

Kelly (23:43):
Let's tie this in with what you are actively doing now
in your business.
So let's um let's go back towhat you were initially speaking
to um being a physician and umbeing in that healthcare world
and then the transition intoyour now business.

Yeah.
So as I was saying, I was sortof seeing people um in my clinic
space and thinking like I wouldsee these babies and these moms
come in for their six-weekvisit.
And I'm like, gosh, you shouldbe at home.
Like, why are you coming inhere?
Um, you I we need to be able tosee you there.
Like, what is happening?
Like, this does not look um,this is this is not right.

(24:27):
And then when I had my ownbabies, I thought I was, you
know, in my in my bed um in myjammies and my diaper because I
was still incontinent and um andhalf naked and thinking, why in
the world do I want to get outof my bed and go into the clinic
to take, you know, to see forsure.
Um, and they don't care aboutme anyway, they just want to see
my baby.
So why?
Like, what am I doing?

Kelly (24:48):
Oh, you're like, I'm getting a little bit of uh PTSD
from this.
It's the the anxiety of likehaving to get ready and prepared
to be there, get your get yourchild prepared and in the car
seat.
That was the first time like Iwas, it wasn't six weeks, but
like it was like a few weeksafter, and I it was my first

(25:12):
time taking Maddie, yes,driving, and I was like, this is
terrible.
Terrible.

I'm terrified of tearing the car seats, all these
things, right?
Yeah, no, none of it should behappening.
It shouldn't that um you know,like men get a vasectomy, and
then you know, they're notallowed to carry anything over
five pounds for you know daysafterwards at the front door.
Like this is this is our frontdoor the front door is that for

(25:38):
real, yeah.
I mean 10 pounds, but yeah,yeah.

unknown (25:41):
Mm-hmm.

Kelly (25:41):
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.
So this is this is the world welive in.
Like we don't, they're notallowed to get off the, you
know, they're supposed to relaxand heal and all these things,
and we're we're supposed to becarrying our babies in after we
just pushed a watermelon under avagina or or had a major
abdominal surgery, right?
Those are the two things thathow these babies come out.
Um I'm still stuck in thisvasectomy.

Kelly (26:02):
Like I'm still stuck on it.
I am like being triggered bythis so badly, right?

It's wild how we we treat people so differently,
right?
So um, so yeah, so I, you know,had my own babies and was
thinking, gosh, there's I donot, I'm saying I'm leaking from
every orifice.
I was crying, my breasts wereleaking, my I was, you know,
incontinent, all these thingswere happening, and here I am
going into the doctor thinking,why am I here?
This does not feel right.

(26:28):
So, but just feeling like that,like, okay, this is you know,
what do we do with this?
This is this is what we'redoing.

Kelly (26:34):
Full steam ahead.

Um, so after my second, I uh I sort of went
through this process of likethinking through like there's
gotta be a different way.
There's gotta be another waythat we can do this.
Like, what is what's the whatcan we do?
But I was coming up, coming upagainst in medical school and
residency, as physicians, we'retold we're never gonna own our

(26:55):
own business.
We are always gonna work forsomebody else, whether it be a
hospital or clinic system.
We're always gonna haveadministrators.
We are never we will never makeit on our own.
So don't even think about it.

Kelly (27:06):
Unbelievable.
But interestingly enough, Iwanted, I was thinking about
this when you were initiallytalking about you know, being in
the healthcare system as aphysician and um like what that
world looked like before I wantto say like insurance really
kind of took over and likehealthcare became what it is

(27:30):
now.
Physicians had their ownpractices.
Yeah, yeah.
And then I th and then I thinkit was like businessmen came in
and and were like, hey, this canlook so much more efficient,
this can look so much better.
Yep.
Entered like the true likecorporate healthcare umbrella.
We're gonna assignadministrators to you, it's

(27:50):
gonna be so much more smooth foryou Yeah, you don't need to
worry about the business.

We will take care of the business part, you just
do the medicine part, right?

Kelly (27:57):
But then what ended up happening was the pressure to
meet specific quotas, right?
Yep, and this is wherephysician burnout came.
Yes.
The reason I bring this up isbecause last week I had three
women on who were all widows,and two of those, actually, one
of them, her husband was aphysician and committed suicide

(28:19):
because of physician burnout.

Oh my gosh.

Kelly (28:22):
Oh and the mental load.
And he was an oncologist, so itwas like, I mean, he it was
just awesome.
I mean, really, but I Ithought, wow, think about what
it could look like and how muchdifferent life could be if
physicians did have theopportunity to go through

(28:43):
schooling and have theopportunity to learn what the
business side could look like.

Speaker (28:48):
Absolutely.
It could be a good idea.
But then also like you canchoose your path.

Right, I guess.
But that doesn't serve the bighospital systems and the big
corporate systems, right?
So they don't want us to knowthat because they they want us
to be just sort of the workerbees, right?
Um, and these administratorsare making millions and millions
and millions of dollars.
And the physicians are makingdoctors who are making less and

(29:16):
less every year.
Yeah.
And they're doing less and lessof what they thought they were
going into medicine for, right?
We thought we were going, we wewant to help people, we want to
connect with people, we want tohear stories.
And um that doesn't happen inthe system because you have you
10-minute visits that you'rejust like are trying to get
through, and um, and that's sortof where I got to.

(29:40):
Um, so what happened in 2020was that then I had a um a dear
friend of mine come to me andsay, I'm pregnant.
I want my my baby to come seeyou in clinic.
I'm so excited.
Can you be our doctor?
And I sort of had this feeling,and I looked at her and I said,
I Can't she said, what do youmean?

(30:02):
Like she thought there wassomething wrong with her, right?
Um, like or her friendship was,you know, there's something
wrong with her friendship.
And I I said, No, no, it's it'snot you, it's me.
Um, I don't like who I am inthe clinic.
I don't like the way I practicemedicine.
I don't feel I wouldn't feellike I was actually serving you
appropriately.
Um, I feel like uh I couldn'tdo the the job that I really

(30:23):
wanted to in that space, and soI can't be your doctor there.
I don't want you to see me inthat light.
It's a different I'm adifferent person there.
Wow.
But I have this vision of thispractice where you're at home in

(31:07):
your jammies, you gave birth acouple days ago.
I come in, it's in the evening,the candles are lit, we make
some tea together, and I sitdown with you on your bed and
snuggle up with you and yourbaby, and we talk about your
birth, and we talk about um youknow how things went, how you're
feeling.
We examine your baby on your onyour chest when their baby's

(31:30):
all snuggled into you.
We you know make surebreastfeeding is going well and
we make sure you're feeling okayand that all the things are
happening in the way that weexpect.
I'm gonna answer any of thequestions that you have, and
then I'm gonna leave you therein that same spot where I where
I came into.
And um, and we'll just, youknow, I'll come in a couple days
later and you can text me andyou can ask questions as things

(31:51):
come up, and I'm there for youin a way that looks different
than what the system is.
What do you think?

Kelly (31:59):
She's like, I think I'm incredible.
Your friend, aka guinea pig forthe start of an incredible
business.
Like, she had such an amazingblessed stroke of luck.
Yeah.
But it was meant to be, right?

Because she was the one.
So then she paid me up front.
I created the LLC, did all thethings that I needed to do to
sort of, you know, launch thebusiness.
I had six months to do itbecause she was early in her
pregnancy, so I had time.
Um, so it's almost this proofof concept because I already had
like, you know, your firstclient or your first, you know,
um paying customer.

(32:40):
And uh, and so I, you know,sort of built it from there.
And so from there it was justword of mouth.
I did it on the side, Icontinued to work in the clinic,
um, didn't advertise.
You just sort of like, youknow, I'd have one patient for a
couple months and then I hadanother one a couple months
later.
And so basically it just sortof, you know, grew very
organically from there.

Kelly (32:58):
And um there wasn't anything in terms of um like
non-compete, right?
Like I think of when I read theone of the widows, she wrote a
book about um, it's called TheIllusion of a Perfect Career or
something like that.
Yeah, wait.
Oh my gosh, that's even if theif that's not the title, that's

(33:21):
a perfect title.
It's did I put it in here?
I didn't.
No, I don't have it in here,anyways.
Um, sorry, Betsy Gall.
I'm totally butchering thename, but it's the illusion of
the perfect something.
And um the illusion of aperfect profession is what it
is.
Yes.
So anyway, she she talked aboutlike her husband at that time

(33:47):
had um transitioned from uh thegroup he was with here in
Minnesota to um a smallerpractice in North Carolina, and
he had this non-compete for Ithink it was like a year.
Well, things that's when thingsreally started to go south, was
when he was with this otherpractice in North Carolina, and

(34:07):
it was like within three months.
It that's when everythinghappened.
All she kept saying was like,let's go back to Minnesota, and
he's like, I can't, I have to,like, I've got this non-compete.
And it was just likedevastating to continue to read
through this part portion of thebook.
So, did you have anything likethat in place, or did you ever

(34:28):
have any sort of like I've gottabe careful about how I approach
this and how I'm havingconversations with people
because I'm sure you're havingpeople like come through the
healthcare system knowing thatthey are just not gonna be
tended to after birth the waythat they are tended to before.

Yeah, absolutely.
So um luckily for me, andactually this is another sort of
stroke of luck that I had umearly on, is that I my um our
residency manager um looked atour our uh contracts when we
first got our initial contractsuh for first jobs or first
attending jobs.
And one of the things shereally focused on was um making

(35:14):
sure that we didn't havenon-competes in our first
contracts.
And um, and mainly actuallybecause I was thinking about
going back and teaching for thatuh residency program.
Um so she's like, just makesure you don't have a
non-compete so you can come backand teach, you know, in
between.

Kelly (35:28):
Yeah.

Um, so I actively made sure that I didn't have a
non-compete in my initialcontract right from the start.
Everything happens for areason, Michelle.
100%.
And then I had an incredibleboss at the um at the clinic I
worked at.
And I I I was very upfront withwhat I was doing and said that
I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn'tsort of poach on any of the

(35:49):
patients that were at theclinic, I wouldn't take any
clinics, any patients fromthere.
Um, and what I was doing was sodifferent than what the clinic
was doing that it wasn't reallya uh, you know, something that
we're was competing with whatthey were doing in general
anyway, because they weren'tproviding that service anyway.
Like there was no.

Kelly (36:05):
I I was gonna ask a question like, did it ever
prompt any sort of like reactionfrom them, like, hey, we should
really evaluate what we'redoing within this.

No, because it couldn't, like they couldn't
within their, you know, theconfines of the system.
And so it wasn't something thatthey felt like they would be
doing anyway.
And in fact, it was probably intheir eyes a a loss of fun
money because it was gonna beseeing less patients and in you
know, that amount of time andthings.
So devastating.
Um, so it wasn't something thatthey were really interested in

(36:36):
anyway.
Um one thing I want to back upon as far as the you know,
physicians owning their ownpractices and things as well, is
that physicians actually aren'tlegally allowed to own
hospitals.
Um, there's a there's a lawagainst that, which is one of
the things that has happened inwhy medicine has changed and
shifted the way it does, becausethere is, and why

(36:57):
administrators and all thesebusiness people are the ones
that are owning hospital systemsand why the hospital systems
are run the way they are, isbecause there aren't altruistic
people doing the care and andowning the businesses and
actually supporting the um, youknow, the the the patients in
the way that they you knowshould be.
Um, so that is one of the thehuge issues in our in our system

(37:19):
and and why it's because again,they're they they are sort of
pushing down physicians and notallowing them to rise up and be
able to um to do the work andand really shift the way that
medicine is practiced thesedays.
So there's a number of factorsthat have come into play that
have really caused that illusionof the perfect profession.

(37:39):
Because it's it's definitelynot.
Um which is why and sort of forme then what's really
incredible is I've been able tocreate my perfect profession
then because I what I went intomedicine for now I'm able to do.
Yeah.
Because I'm able to do exactlywhat I what I sort of set out to

(38:00):
do and wanted to do and andcare for people in the way that
meet people where they're at andactually make a difference in
their lives.
Um and be connected with themand have them know me.
And I'm I'm a person too,right?
And in the system, we're notseen as that.

Kelly (38:14):
No.
Um so matter of fact, it'salmost at to a point now where
there's such a huge I think thatthere's a divided scope in the
sense of trust.

Completely.

Kelly (38:27):
Either, you know, there's 50% of people that are full-on
trust with the healthcare systemand whatever their doctor says
to them, they follow to a T.
And sometimes, like dependingon who their their doctor is,
that might be the right thing.
And then there's the otherpercentage of us, and I will I

(38:48):
fall in this category where it'slike, I'm gonna avoid going to
the hospital or the doctor, orjust the general, like, I'm
gonna avoid it at all costs.
Yeah, absolutely.
And there's and I because Idon't trust.
I have zero trust anymore.

Yeah, absolutely.
And I think that there's theproblem is that physicians are
being blamed for it when reallythey're trying their darn best
to work in a system that ispushing them down and pushing
them out, not allowing them todo what they really want to be
able to do.
Um, there's a very, I mean, ofcourse, there's you know,
exceptions to the rule, but orexceptions to, you know, in
general, but the vast majorityof of physicians want to help

(39:26):
people and they want to providesupport and evidence and um and
care that you know meets peoplewhere they're at and really be
able to, but you can't hearsomebody's story if you don't
have time.
Ten minutes it doesn't workthat way.
So, of course, you know, I Iwas in a system then where I was
like, okay, well, we'll giveyou some more insulin or we'll
give you some more medication asopposed to how do we meet you

(39:48):
and figure out how do we thensupport you in a way that really
feels um and makes sense toyou, you know, and how do you
how do you find that you knowspace of wellness and um and
connection with that?

Kelly (40:01):
Okay, so I'm just looking up real quick a book.
I might have asked you aboutthis.
Um when we had our initial Zoomcall.
Have you read the book GoodEnergy by Casey Means?
Or have you heard of CaseyMeans?
Why does that sound familiar tome?
Okay, this is the summary.

(40:22):
And I'll make sure to drop thisin the show notes for the other
50% that doesn't trust thehealthcare system.
A bold new vision foroptimizing our health now and in
the future.
What if depression, anxiety,infertility, insomnia, heart
disease, et cetera, et cetera,et cetera, um, and many other
health conditions that tortureand short-turn our lives

(40:42):
actually have the same rootcause.
Our ability to prevent andreverse these conditions and
feel incredible today is underour control and simpler than we
think.
Dr.
Casey Means explains in thatgroundbreaking book nearly every
health problem we face can beexplained by how well the cells
of our body energy create anduse energy to live free from

(41:04):
frustrating symptoms andlife-threatening disease.
We need our cells to beoptimally powered so that they
can create good energy, theessential fuel that impacts
every aspect of our physical andmental well-being.
Um, let's see here.
I wanted to see if it gave anyum more information about Dr.
Casey Means herself.

(41:25):
Um, but it doesn't.
So that's sort of the the uhgenesis of what that is.
I encourage you to listen to orread.

There's another book that's sort of similar to
that.
It's a different, um, adifferent another physician
wrote it and oh gosh, I'mblanking on it as well.
But it's um it's sort of yeah,the metabolic um disease is sort
of like the the underlyingcause of so much, so many things
with like how again how thecells use utilize energy.

Kelly (41:52):
Yeah, I think I know the book that you're talking about
and the name of it and theauthor's escaping.
Yeah, same.
We'll find it.

We'll figure it out.

Kelly (41:59):
There's so many amazing books.
Uh I can't even keep track ofit.
And I think like on a weeklybasis, I have another one or two
books that are um suggested forme to read.
Completely.

I've got this running list I'm like never
gonna keep up with, but I loveit.
Well, one thing I want to bringup with that is that, you know,
so I um I treat a lot of umperinatal mental health,
obviously.
There's um there's I do itwithin within my practice,
within people that uh, you know,I'm I'm seeing, but then also
um people seek me out for umsecond opinions or um sort of

(42:30):
you know additional um treatmentoptions for um perinatal mental
health because there's so manyum unfortunately uh what happens
in the system again is thatmost people end up getting sort
of prescribed Zoloft orCetalipram or some, you know,
whatever Certrilline Um and theysort of given given the
medication and sent on theirway.
There's like, here's your pillsand go, you know.

(42:51):
Um and again, this is what'skilling a lot of people, right?
This is this is number onecause.

Kelly (42:55):
I have to just piggyback off of this because one of the
other widows oh yeah, is uhshe's a um drug advocate now and
serves on one of the FDAboards.
Kim Forgive Me, um Witchek, KimWitchek.
Okay, anyways, her husband wasprescribed Zoloft, and this was

(43:16):
about 20 plus years ago whenmore research, like there was
already research that had beendone on Zolof.

Yeah, yes.

Kelly (43:26):
But there was there was research that had been done on
how it impacted um adolescents.
Yes, teenagers.
Yes, yeah, increases on suicideand suicide.
Yes.
Sounds like you have someunderstanding of the case.
Yes, very much yourself aboutthis.

Yeah, we um it is one of the sort of black box
warnings on um on the city.
She fought for that, and that'sthat's the reason.

Kelly (43:50):
Yes, yes, because of her.
Amazing.
The black box label, black boxis on the lab, on the box now,
which is so important, right?

Like we, you know, it's it does treat um, you
know, these can these illnessesand these um these concerns, but
it also does put people atincreased risk as well.
So you can't just send people,and there's side effects, right?
So you can't just send people,you know, give people a
prescription and say, you know,be on your way and good luck,
right?
Um, and frankly, I lovemedication.

(44:20):
I do, I think it's amazing.
I think it there's there'sspace for it, and there is um,
there is definitely need for it,and there's, but it's one tool
out of hundreds.

Speaker 3 (44:30):
Yeah.

And what I'm finding in the system is that um
it seems people act like it'sthe only tool.
It's the only thing that andtherapy, which again, amazing,
love it.
Yeah.
Um, but there's so much morethat we can do to f to help
people that is beyond that.
Um and you know, so I talk alot about like, you know, we
need the building blocks to helpbuild serotonin, not just

(44:52):
blocking it from being, youknow, sort of, you know, uh uh
broken down and elevating inthat way.
Um, you know, what are thethings we need the cofactors
that so like the vitamins andminerals that are important to
actually build serotonin?
And we need those, those thosesupplements are really
important.
Um if people feel wellnessthrough energy medicine, for

(45:13):
example, um What do you mean byenergy Reiki, for example?
Okay, um for many people ifthey've used it in the past and
it's been something that'sreally resonated with them, it
has to resonate with the persongetting the the treatment.
Otherwise, they're never gonnabe well from whatever you're
doing.
Um, and so for me it's it's howdo we how do we connect with

(45:37):
people and find out what whatthat is for them?
What are the things thatresonate with you that feel
really I mean even withmedications?
Like there's some people like Ineed a medication that's sort
of like what that's that makessense to me.
Um other people are like, youknow, if I take a medication,
there's no way I'm gonna feelbetter because I'm gonna I'm
gonna be so focused on the sideeffects and other things that
are with it that they're nevergonna feel good about putting
the medication in their mouthevery day.

(45:58):
So that's not gonna work forthem.
Um so you know, looking atacupuncture, how do we use that?
How do we use um manualmedicine?
So how do we use like sort ofphysical medicine and the way we
move our body, yoga, umchiropractors, chiropractors,
right?
Exactly.
Osteopathic manipulation,there's um uh use for that,
cranial sacral therapy, right?

(46:19):
There's all these different umnarrative medicine where you
sort of tell your story and whatand use your wisdom.
Um and uh and I really think ifwe were to use narrative
medicine more in the birthprocess and after after the
birth, there would be so muchmore healing that would happen,
and people wouldn't move intothat anxiety and move into the

(46:40):
the um the other sort of mentalhealth stuff that comes up
postpartum because they're sotraumatized by what happened in
the birth, right?
And as opposed to sort of sortof this is a um an aside, but um
you know, I talk to familiesglad about okay, tell me your
birth story.
Like, and I don't want to justhear, oh, I had a cesarean or
oh, I had you know vaginal birthand it was fine.

(47:00):
Like I want to hear all thedetails.
So we're like an hour long,like tell me everything.
And what I love is sitting downwith their partner as well, or
whoever their support person is,um, and having them sit next to
and and tell their story too.
So the two of them tell theirstory together, what that what
that looks like, and it fillsthe gaps.
So, for example, um, somebodywho's giving uh giving birth

(47:21):
vaginally and um is sort ofdoing it all natural and doesn't
have any pain medication andsort of goes through this this
thing and then um they're goingthrough their transformation
stage of the birth, and sothey're roaring, screaming, you
know, they're reeling, theirbody is moving, right?
Can't do this, like all thesethings are happening, right?
And um their partner iswatching watching this and

(47:44):
thinking they're dying.
Like this is they're I'm seeinga different side of the what is
happening with my wife, right?
Um, and uh and so there's or mypartner or whoever, and uh and
so they're like watching thisthinking, oh my god, like what
is happening?
And you know, the birth theperson who's giving birth is

(48:04):
like, oh no, I was in my power.
I was in my I I was, you know,this was my moment, you know, I
was feeling like I turning inthe animal, it's sort of like
energy, right?
And um, and so by having thatstory, but by saying that and
having the partner realize, oh,that okay, okay, all right,

(48:26):
we're okay, right?
Now we can maybe considerhaving another baby down the
line.
So many of these spirits arelike, there's no way I can watch
that again.
That it's not happening.
I will not let my my partner gothrough that again.
They were they were on theverge.
And I'm like, no, actually,this was very much part of their
journey.
Oh, incredible.
And they sort of came intotheir power in that moment.

(48:46):
Reverse it and have um, youknow, somebody who maybe has to
go on for a cesarean birth forwhatever reason, they maybe it's
an emergency and the baby'sheart rate was dropping and
things were happening veryquickly.
They go into the um into the umOR and their partner's next to
them, and uh, you know, the babycomes out and they hear

(49:07):
nothing.
No cries, nothing's happening.
The partner sees that baby andthe baby's looking around like
everything's fine, you know, allgood, just hasn't cried yet.
The person on the table whohasn't heard that baby scream
yet is thinking that baby justdied.
Yeah.
Where is that?
Why is that baby not breathing?
Yeah, there's something wrong.
The partner's seeing it lookinglike, no, this baby's great.

(49:30):
They're just like alert andlooking around now, everything's
good.
They didn't hear that story,they don't know that story.
So now in their mind they'reruminating on there's some,
there's, you know, my baby hasbrain, you know, didn't get
oxygen for a long period oftime.
There's something I'm gonna beworried about them forever.
Um, you know, this whole scaryscenario over and over and over

(49:50):
again, versus you know, thepartner who's like, oh no,
everything's good.

Kelly (49:54):
Yeah.

But they didn't know, you know.
So if you have those, if youtell those stories together, it
fills in those gaps and then itprevents that those that
anxiety, those ruminatingthoughts, the fear.
Um, and you can sort of moveforward with, you know, away
from the trauma of what thatbirth could have been.
Now, there's obviously realmore in in-depth trauma and

(50:16):
things that happen, but a lot oftimes it's those little nuances
that people really sort offixate on that end up being
very, very scary for them forthe long term.
And we can prevent that, whichagain prevents some mental
health stuff down the line,which prevents deaths, right?
Like these are these are thingsthat are very easy, quote
unquote, to sort of um treat ordeal with, but and and prevent

(50:40):
in the first place.
But we we're we're not giventhe time, the energy, the space
to do so.
So how do we, you know, yeah,and sometimes this is the only
time that people are actuallytelling their whole story,
right?
Like when else do they have atime or space or energy so to
somebody to sit and listen andsay yeah, like hey, I want to
hear all, I want to heareverything, all the pieces.
Yeah, the scary ones, excitingones, the the moments, the you

(51:02):
know, I want to hear all of it.
So it's interesting.

Kelly (51:05):
You're you're kind of making me think about talking
through that with my husbandtoo.
Like I I didn't have any sortof like real trauma that came
out of that, but I willinterestingly enough.

So I get yeah, there's yeah.

Kelly (51:24):
My husband had never, so he's remarried.
We're now we're married, andwith his two sons, they were
both born via C sectionC-section.
So he never got to experienceuh a vaginal birth.
Right.
And he did, and at first, likehe did, he's like he has no

(51:46):
problem commun withcommunication.
Yes, so the communication washappening um probably within a
like a week or two.
And he right away was like thatwas the most beautiful
experience, seeing you in yourpower, essentially.
Not his words, but like in yourpower and talking to my

(52:11):
daughter.
Like I was talking to her,coaching her to okay, you're
doing this.
I can do this, honey, let's go.
It's like I want to meet youand we want to meet you, let's
do this, let's go, girlfriend.
Right, yes, and he was like,that was the coolest thing ever.
And he actually got, dare I saythis.
He got a video, he took videoof the process of her coming

(52:35):
out, and he was like, it was, Imean, it I think he was sort of
having this like kind of catch22 moment, like that was
something.
Yeah.
And then that was something.

Yeah, same.
My husband's very similar, yes,yes, yes.

Kelly (52:55):
So, but it you have me kind of thinking, like, how how
therapeutic could that be tohave this moment with your
significant other, your yourpartner, and going, let's talk
about that day.
Yeah.
And what you experienced versuswhat I experienced.
And what were those highs andlows and stuff?

And it's really cool to hear like them seeing
you, yeah, and saying, Wow, Iacknowledge that I see that you
were in your power or whatever,whatever terminology they use.
Um, or maybe I was a littleafraid at that moment.
And this was scary for me andfelt very vulnerable and that I
was about to lose, you know, thethe my human, my person, you

(53:34):
know.
Um, so yeah, I think thatthere's a lot to be, and and you
won't, it's interesting becauseI think that most people don't
know what those would be verysurprised at what moments those
are that are very the vulnerablemoments.
This the the the scary ones,the ones, or maybe the that you
didn't even know was happening.
Like maybe you maybe he heardthe nurse and the doctor talking

(53:55):
in the background at one point,and you were like, and you
didn't even know that that was athing, right?
Yeah, um, like off to the sideor something.
And uh, and so having it's it'sjust sort of completes the
puzzle, I think, and um andreally sort of brings together
this whole transformative, youknow, moment, really for sure.

Kelly (54:17):
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, so I want to pivot um andtalk through the process of you
going into business and howlong the transition took for you
because you had mentioned I wasreally doing this on the side,
a sort of a side gig.
But then when did you decideI'm gonna fully commit to this?

Yeah.
Um so I had my third, and uh atfirst I was gonna take um three
months off, like you know, 12weeks, like everyone does.
Um but I was like, gosh, I thismay be my last kid, I don't
know.
And I have this business, andsort of the whole point of doing

(54:59):
that is be able to to have theflexibility in my life with you
know having these kids and beingable to be a part of their
lives early on and things.
So um, so I said to the clinicI was working at, I want nine
months.
And they said, Oh, and I wasready to walk.
Yeah, they wouldn't give menine months.
Yeah.
Um, but they said yeah.
So they gave me nine months.

(55:20):
So I took nine months and umset my business during that
time, took uh beautiful ninemonths with my my my third one,
it was incredible, and then wentback to work at the clinic
again nine months later andrealized very quickly within the
first couple weeks of beingback that I didn't want to be
there anymore.
It just wasn't the space thatfor me um that I really wanted

(55:41):
to dive into my privatepractice.
And um, so I gave mythree-month notice then to the
clinic, and um, so in April of2023 is when I left.
Um love them.
I think I mean I have so manygood things to say about that
clinic in general, it justwasn't where I my where my space
was anymore.

(56:02):
Um and yeah, so went off on myown then.
Um I also in the meantime hadalso added uh another physician
um who was working with me, wasincredible, Dr.
Melissa Hardy.
Um, and she that name sounds sofamiliar.
She's an incrediblepediatrician, absolutely

(56:23):
incredible.

Kelly (56:24):
Okay.

You might have seen her along the line in one
of in a clinic somewhere.
We're gonna talk something.
We're gonna talk off air.
Yeah, yeah.
We'll figure it out.
It sounds, it sounds sofamiliar, but um she's um she's
yeah, she's absolutelyincredible.
She's taught in a lot of the umresidency programs, and I'm
just so grateful, grateful forum having her along the ride.
And is she full-time?

(56:46):
She um no, so she works atanother or was working at
another clinic actually umpart-time as well, and then with
me.
Okay.
And similar to sort of like onthe side.
Um, and then now she has uhdecided to leave corporate
medicine completely, and we'reshe's sort of under our wing and
doing um full-on pediatric careas well.
So not just fourth trimester,but also um seeing folks all the

(57:08):
way through 20 years of old, 20years old or so.
So um full-on uh does she havelike a virtual does she do stuff
virtually?
Um yes.
Uh she goes by Dr.
Mel on um I got it.
Yeah, I'm trying to think whather handle is off the top of my

(57:31):
head off Instagram, but we canput that into the show notes
too.
Yeah.
Um, but so she so JunaPediatrics is her now practice
as well.
Um, and so she does directprimary care, meaning that we
have she people pay her amonthly membership.
Okay, and they have directaccess to her.
So she only has a panel, shewill only have a panel of about
150 patients, versus in the inthe regular clinic system, it's

(57:54):
2,000 to 3,000.
Um so you can imagine theaccess, the availability, the
connectedness, the you know,sort of knowing she does home
visits.
Okay.
Um, so it's really absolutelyincredible.

Kelly (58:06):
And we're really talking about this because I've been
having some major reservationsabout what this looks like
moving forward for me atpediatric care for my daughter.
Yeah.
Um, and so I would love tolearn a little bit more about
that.
Yeah, we'll talk to it.

It's it's it's again, so she's it's it's
avoiding this burnout stuff, andit's also providing this care
that's you know, that is so muchmore um about what people are
looking for.
They're looking for guidanceand support and sort of away
from this sort of patriarchalkind of um, you know, uh the way

(58:42):
the system is right now.

Kelly (58:44):
This is a blessing in disguise right now because this
is something that's been reallyheavily weighing on my heart.
And so I'm like, okay.
It can look different.
Dr.
Dr.
Melissa Melissa.
Yeah, Dr.
Melissa Hardy is an incredible,yes, yes, yeah, yeah.
So I I think um so interestingwe can have some fun

(59:06):
conversations off air about whatthis looks like, both on my end
as somebody who's seeking,yeah, um, for my daughter, but
then for me too.
As a woman who's like, I'veavoided going in for my annual
visit because I'm like, I justhave such a huge lack of trust
now for the healthcare system.

(59:26):
And it's sometimes it's likethat that care and attentiveness
is not felt anymore.
Yes, I used to feel it yearsand years ago, but since like
like in the woman who um was myOBGYN, um like pre and then
post, she retired.

(59:47):
Uh yeah.
And I I'm wondering why sheretired because it happened very
suddenly.
And I'm like, I'm wondering ifshe just had burnout herself, uh
or some of these systems arepushing people out.

So there's there's like Clinics are getting shut
down, and depending on whatclinic system, some of them have
actually she was here anydinner.

Kelly (01:00:06):
That one's not shutting down anytime soon.
So I'm wondering if it hadsomething to do with uh yeah,
like her just I'm fed up withthis.

Michelle H. (01:00:15):
Yeah, could be very well.

Kelly (01:00:17):
Um, and yeah, a lot of physicians are leaving because
of that, which is yeah, we'resort of which is unfortunate
because um there's also a lackof physicians too, right?
Like there's such a a processthat you as physicians go
through for for education, yes,and when there's a loss in any
way, shape, or form, whetherit's death, yeah, right,

(01:00:39):
exactly.
Or it's I am so burned outretiring early.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I just can't do this anymore.
And the replacement is just nothappening at the speed that
it's necessarily needed.
So there's such a lot ofpeople.

Michelle H. (01:00:56):
Yeah, um, right, exactly.
So there's there's I'm a littleworried about who's gonna take
care of me when I'm old,honestly.
Children, yeah, yeah, right,yeah.
But I mean, but also in thehealthcare system, right?
So like who's gonna, you know,that yeah, like whereas, you
know, when I get sick, who'sgonna be there and who's gonna
be the one that, you know, um,hopefully I won't get sick very

(01:01:17):
often.
But um but in general, we youknow, there's there's need that
is there.
Um so yeah, so we're sort of atthat crossroads and we'll see
what happens moving forward.
But maybe I think that there'sthere's this shift that's
happening, that there's a lotmore doctors that are moving
outside the system and knowingthat they can start practices,
yeah.
Um, and I've uh been in contactwith um and connected with a a

(01:01:39):
large number of them in the TwinCities here who are are moving
into that space, which is reallyquite lovely um and exciting.
So we're we're saying like no.
I'm gonna keep you in my backpocket.
Yeah, seriously.
I mean, honestly, and uh likelisteners too, like if you are
there are people that you'relike, I need some support.
I mean, reach out, like I'mhappy to get people connected.
Um unfortunately, a lot ofthese doctors, it's hard to

(01:02:03):
because they're not in thesystem, they're not getting
referred to.
Yeah.
Um, and so it's hard, like it'shard to know who's out there,
like who's, you know, becausethey're sort of these, you know,
they're they're kind of hiddengems, you know.

Kelly (01:02:14):
As a doctor too, or a physician, it's not, it isn't a
part of your day-to-day routineto go and sell yourself, right?
Right.
Or even have the the knowledgeand sort of understanding of
operations of a business, whichis really what I want to segue
into, is for you in intransitioning into

(01:02:38):
entrepreneurship, you had yourLLC and stuff.
And so you sort of had yourfootholdings in in a part-time
respect, right?
But let's talk through this forthe listeners, for for the
individuals, the women who arelistening right now, that are
they're they're sort of nibblingon the edge of
entrepreneurship, and they'revery intimidated by what the

(01:02:59):
process of building a businesslooks like.
So let's talk through this.
It's scary.

Michelle H. (01:03:04):
It's it's it is scary, and it is a wild ride, I
will say.
There's and there are monthsthat you're like, wow, this is
absolutely incredible.
And then there's months thatare like, okay, is everything
going under it?
I'm never gonna get it.
Yeah, because this is going,you know, um, not gonna be a
thing anymore next month.
Um, and right, and I think thatthat's uh weathering those

(01:03:28):
storms and being able to sort ofyou know move through that is
challenging.
And the and honestly, the onlyway that I've been able to do so
is by connecting with otherentrepreneurs.

Kelly (01:03:37):
Yeah.

Michelle H. (01:03:38):
Because they get it, you know, they're the people
that so it's not I don't havethose colleagues in the medical
system that understand what I'mdoing.
It's the you know, the mom andpop shop down the street that
understands more of what I'mdoing.
And it's um what's interestingto me is that really as an
entrepreneur, 90% of what 99%,95% of what we do is identical.

(01:03:58):
Like we're having to, you know,deal with the you know, taxes
and the you know, accountingstuff and the marketing and all
the things of running abusiness.
And we've got this like 5% or10% niche that we're like sort
of working in, right?
Yeah.
Whatever it is our our actualbusinesses.
So being able to connect withother people who may not be

(01:04:19):
doing exactly what I'm doing,but the vast majority of what
I'm doing, they're dealing withtoo.
So they're so we're getting,you know, referrals you know
from each other and you know,recommendations and how do we
deal with social media and howdo you deal with you know all
the different things, right?
Yeah.
Um, marketing for me has beenthe hardest, I think, because
um, again, I sort of greworganically, word of mouth, and

(01:04:40):
now I've got um there's actuallyfour physicians who work with
me now.

Speaker (01:04:43):
I've got um that's incredible.

Michelle H. (01:04:45):
Yeah, it's it's absolutely amazing, and I I love
and adore each and every one ofthem.
I think they're absolutelyincredible.
Um, and uh and they do suchincredible work and they just
their hearts are in the rightspace, and they're just they
know they're they're such ablessing to their patients.
Um and uh so with that, uh theyone's in Rochester, so that's

(01:05:08):
Leslie Coomer.
Um Leslie Morris Coomer, she'sincredible.
So she's uh she's working inRochester area, so she's seeing
folks there.
Um Dr.
Katie Swanson is in Marine onSt.
Croix, so she's actuallybasically Western Wisconsin and
Stillwater, kind of that area.
Um, and then Dr.
Laura Hagemeyer is in um likeBrooklyn Park, Brooklyn Center,

(01:05:28):
kind of north Anoka, kind ofthat area.
Um, and then Melissa Hardy isin um Plymouth.
So it's one of our radiusesthat we see folks in.
How about you?

Kelly (01:05:38):
What's your in Plymouth as well?
Okay.
Yeah, Northwest Metro.
I mean, Plymouth is pretty,yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

Michelle H. (01:05:46):
I I tend to sort of she's a little bit more
north, so she does like Medinaand um Orno and kind of that.
And even down into like um, Iguess Excelsior.
And I'm sort of South, I godown into South Minneapolis,
okay um Edina, yeah.
Kind of this area.
So we're a little bit on eachside of Plymouth.
Um, but we cover for each otherand all of that too.
So um, but uh what was I sayingwith that?

(01:06:08):
So it's so it's uh it's beenreally incredible working with
all these different different uhphysicians and who are who are,
you know, but that I'm who areworking with me, but also now
I've got other people that I'msort of responsible for.
So I'm so now marketing is kindof a big thing, right?
So now I feel like we have sortof outgrown the organic growth.

Kelly (01:06:28):
Yeah.

Michelle H. (01:06:29):
And now I need to soon move into the space of how
do I because I what I hear themost often is I wish I had known
about you.
I wish I'd heard about and I'mlike, okay, that's on me because
you didn't hear about mebecause I'm not marketing.

Kelly (01:06:41):
Yeah.

Michelle H. (01:06:42):
If you know about it, no about you seriously,
right?
So, like that's so so I have toget into this mindset of I'm
not I'm it's okay to sellourselves and it's okay to put
ourselves out there and kind ofmaybe look foolish or whatever
in our minds, it's it seems likeit.
Um, and uh and just bevulnerable in that space.
And um, because then the peoplewho need you or want you are

(01:07:07):
then able to find you and thenthey're able to, you know,
utilize your services.
Yeah.
So we're doing a service tothem by marketing, right?
But that's a hard, it's a hardshift to for me and my brain to
sort of move into.
So and I don't understandmarketing because I don't like I
never again, I don't have abusiness background at all.
So I'm how do you do that onsocial media?

(01:07:28):
What are Google ads?
What's Facebook ads?
Like, what does that what doesall this stuff sort of look
like?
Mailers, like whatever, likewhat totally there are so many
different aspects to it, and howdoes that and then and then
there's a lot of people thatsort of I don't say prey on
that, but it feels like there'sa lot of that that comes in that
like, oh, you should be doingthis for $9.99 a month, you can
be, you know, whatever.

(01:07:49):
And I'm like, you know, is thatreally helpful or is it not?
And is it, you know, you'rejust sort of throwing money at
things?

Kelly (01:07:55):
I may have some resources for you, and again, this is we
can talk about this off-air, butthis is sort of the whole
purpose of what I'm I would say,it's part of the purpose of
what I'm doing with the podcastis I was mentioning this to my
husband yesterday after we hadan incredible call with an
individual that will be on thepodcast in the future, but can

(01:08:18):
also serve as a vendor for us inour real estate business as
well.
Yeah, yeah.
He was like, She brought up howshe loves being a connector.
And I resonated with that and Isaid, Yes, you know, something
that I've thought about withwhat I want to continue to build
with the podcast, and then justthe community beyond that is
being the connective tissue.

(01:08:39):
Yeah.
And my husband was like, Youshould consider yourselves
builders.
Ah and I was like, okay, Imean, sure, like you could you
can sort of like do this, like,yes, this or that and that, like
we're builders, but then we'realso the connectors and the
connective tissue.

(01:08:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
Too.
So I I pride myself in like whoI continue to have as guests on
the podcast, and then going,who could they serve?
Yes, or who could um who couldwho could they serve and then
who could serve them as well.
I love that.

(01:09:20):
So, anyways, I yes, I hear youbecause the marketing aspect of
it is I think there are manywomen who are gonna be listening
to this part of the podcastinterview and go, yes, that in
itself.
And I we always want to flocktowards like what is the social

(01:09:42):
media aspect of it, because it'sfree.
We can do that for free, butit's not free because it's time
to do that, and time is money aswell.
Not only time, but energy.

Michelle H. (01:09:53):
I find that it it sucks my positive energy out,
and I because then you're on itand you're on it, and I'm
getting connected to like thelikes and the things, and like,
you know, and and sort of it itdoesn't it's not a not a
positive space in many aspects.
And then um, and then I'm like,oh, why didn't you know, why
didn't this not get as manylikes?
And it, you know, you sort offeel and it so much of it has to

(01:10:15):
do with just the algorithms andall these things.
It's nothing to do withcompletely outside of your
control, right?
Um and uh and then it feelslike, oh, well, I should be a
presence on there becausethere's so much bad information,
you know, that's beingperpetuated in that space.
So, like in some ways, I almostfeel like an obligation to have

(01:10:36):
some you know, some accurateinformation, some facts to you
know, put behind things becausepeople are looking for that, and
that's where where people are.
But you know, so yeah, it's notit's not free.
It's not free at all.
Um, so how do you where youknow where's that balance and
how do you kind of find um whatmakes sense?

Kelly (01:10:58):
Well, what has that looked like for you so far?
And and um, you know, above andbeyond that, I think that we
know that this is an area ofopportunity for you right now.
And so I think that that's agood like ask of the listeners,
like who who could potentiallyserve this.
I already had mentioned that Ithink I might have a few
connections for you just in theRolodex of guests that I've had

(01:11:20):
on the podcast, but there'snothing wrong with like putting
out there onto this interviewspecifically, like this is a
need, this is what we'reseeking.
And um, you know, it's it's toemphasize the story behind what
you're doing, right?
Because storytelling is soimportant.
And believe me, I like Iunderstand that there's there's

(01:11:44):
a story behind the mission ofthe podcast.
I struggle with that too.
Yeah, right.
I struggle with like how do Icontinue to market, right?
So you're not alone in thatboat, but like partnering with
somebody who can where there'salignment, it fits the budget
because that's really importanttoo.

(01:12:05):
Yes, exactly.
And can properly emphasize yourstory so that it resonates with
individuals and they go, Yes,I'm pregnant and I need that.

Michelle H. (01:12:19):
Yes, exactly.

Kelly (01:12:19):
Yes, and I need it because of my mental health.
I need it because I want toproperly be attended to after I
have my child and not only havethe focus on my child because
mama is important also.

Michelle H. (01:12:34):
That's the thing.
You need it because you deserveit.
Right, right.
Like it's we we deserve to havecare and compassion and support
in a time that is sovulnerable.
Um, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, so there's there's yeah,these sort of spaces that I'm
moving into that the other thingthat we're trying to do is um
become part of a benefitspackage for businesses, right?

(01:12:57):
So like a business will say,like, this is you know, you get
your health benefits orwhatever, but also if you or
your partner has a baby, you canhave this care and we'll pay
for it.
So again, how do you get intothat space, right?
Yeah.
Um, so who do you connect with?
Is it HR people?
Is it brokers?
Is it who?
You know, like who is it thatum, but yeah, so you think about
like, you know, all thesedifferent companies um, I think

(01:13:20):
are trying to find innovativeways to support their employees,
right?
Um, especially families.
Like they're, you know, theyhave these um, you know, mothers
are leaving the work orbirthing people are leaving the
workplace quite frequently andquite at a quite high rate
because the lack of supports,they're not getting the support
that they need.
Um, so how do we we can combatthat?

(01:13:41):
We can help employers retainand um and bring in talent then
by having us as a benefit.

Kelly (01:13:50):
Okay, curious, how about the individuals that you serve
that own their own businesses?

Michelle H. (01:13:58):
Yeah, yeah.

Kelly (01:13:59):
What does that look like as well?

Michelle H. (01:14:00):
So different?
Um different is similar, right?
So it's so what we can do isbecause we were we also are
entrepreneurs, so we know thenhow to how what does that look
like?
How do we help get you backinto doing what you love and
doing your your you know your umworkspace while also having,
you know, your babies.

(01:14:21):
Um so how do we best supportyour physical and mental health
so then you can be optimal thenwhen you sort of move into the
job space?
Um so and access.
So we have, you know, you cantext us, we can come in between
hours.
I've met people at theirworkspace to help treat them for
mastitis, for example.
And so they don't have to leavetheir workspace even.
Like they're they can have thesupport they need where where

(01:14:41):
they're um where they're at.
And so they don't need to, youknow, take a whole half day or a
full day off of work becausethe then they're able to have
the support that they need.
Um, you know, there's there's alot of things.
We're we're able to um, youknow, we're we're available via
text message so people canmessage us directly quickly and
get answers quickly, so they'renot having to sort of figure out
like what do I do in thissituation, you know, um uh so

(01:15:04):
that that becomes sort of aburden for people.
Um, and then like the uh, youknow, if they're creating their
own, so if they have an uhS-corp, for example, they have
their own benefits packages,they could have their own
benefits for themselves, thatthen they could it would be a
write-off, right?
Like sure it would just be, youknow, because they're the sole,
um, the sole owner or whateverthey could be able to have that

(01:15:26):
be part of their their benefits.
Um, or if they have got asmall, you know, group of folks,
then they could provide thebenefit for fans.
Fascinating.

Kelly (01:15:33):
You got my mind reeling right now.

Michelle H. (01:15:35):
There's there's a lot of things.
And then on the even foremployers that then have people
coming back to work, how do wesupport the employer then who
has these employees coming back?
So what you know, what does thespace need to be like?
What is the, you know, the umhow do you support their mental
health?
How do you support their umthem being a parent?
What does that flexibility youknow look like potentially?

(01:15:58):
And how, but then how do youalso sort of um do that around
the restrictions of the what thejob is?
So we can help them help theemployers actually be better
employers, the employees arecoming back to work.
So that then they're againretention, right?
Yeah.
Um and and better productivitybecause now they're not worried
about the health of themselvesor their baby, and they're

(01:16:19):
they're sort of working inoptimal, you know, an optimal
space as opposed to just justbarely hanging on, you know,
just barely being able to getback there.
And they don't the last placethey want to be is at work.
So we're able to sort of workthrough that with people so that
then they have the support, theresources, all the things that
both sides need to be able tobest, you know, sort of

(01:16:40):
successfully, you know, makethis transition.

Kelly (01:16:42):
Have you already started to do this, or is this something
you envision?

Michelle H. (01:16:47):
This is something I envision.
I'm working on trying toconnect with companies at this
point.
Like this is I have the wholelayout.
I know exactly what um, well,and the other exactly in my
mind, it seems like they wouldwant.

Speaker 3 (01:16:58):
Yeah.

Michelle H. (01:16:58):
But the other thing is we can be flexible.
We can say, what do you thinkyou need?
Right.
So there's, I mean, we couldhave a half clinics days,
half-day clinic space on theirsite if they've got a big enough
um, you know, population ofemployees.
We could there's there's wecould create mom groups within
their workspace and helps helpfacilitate those.
There, we could do well childvisits on site.

(01:17:19):
Like we can like there's some,like they've got a, you know,
some some places like I don'tknow, Best Buy has like a child
care center on site, right?
We could do well visits rightat the child care center.
Like it would, they don't needto then take a day off of work
and go to, you know, have to goto the doctor or whatever.
We can do things right there.
Wow.
I mean, you the the the sort ofspace and ideas are limitless.
It's just figuring out what youknow where those pain points

(01:17:42):
are for both the employers andemployees and working with that
to find something that sort offits.

Kelly (01:17:47):
Interestingly enough, you talk about pain points.
I bet when you do this, when ithappens, yeah, and the
manifestor, absolutely you'regoing to have your own pain
points and how that growthhappens because it, you know,
there's only how many four, fiveof you total.

Speaker 3 (01:18:05):
Yep.

Kelly (01:18:07):
And I think about how that that sort of stretches you
beyond your limits too.
So what the growth could looklike from that, I mean, this is
amazing.
And I love what you'reconsidering, but I, you know, we
we put our CEO hats on.

Michelle H. (01:18:23):
Yeah, absolutely.

Kelly (01:18:24):
Too, and have to understand the impacts of what
that looks like, positiveimpacts, but and the struggles
behind it too.

Michelle H. (01:18:31):
The struggles behind it totally.
Um, and I have physicians thatare coming with me, coming up to
me monthly saying, What do youdo?
How can I join?
So I've I'm I've got a list ofyou know, physicians who want to
do this who I just don't havethe patience for because I don't
have not paid the number ofclients page.
Right.
C E right.

(01:18:51):
Um, who uh you know, I justdon't have the number yet.
So like yet.
So when that when that happens,then I can pull from that that
pool and um start adding moremore docs on board.
So I I have sort of minimalconcern about that piece of it.
I really think that we're gonnabe able to definitely tolerate
and definitely um expand very,very well with that.

(01:19:14):
Of course, it's gonna be bumpsalong the road.
But um my other part of itthough that I'm a little
struggling with is, you know, Iwent into this to do the work
and now I'm becoming the CEO,more and more the CEO and
managing.
Things are changing.
Right.
And so I'm working more on thebusiness and less in the
business, which I'm exploringand seeing how I feel about it.

(01:19:36):
Um, but it's it's a shiftbecause I again I didn't go into
business school.
Like I didn't go into business,I went went into medicine.
I wanted to work with people.
So I'm now having this uh verysort of delicate balance of
working with a select few ofpatients and then more um sort
of on the business side.

Kelly (01:19:56):
What's the equivalent of um we spoke about matrescence
earlier on this interview?
The equivalent of that as anentrepreneur, yeah, that is
transitioning from being in thebusiness and doing like the
reason, the sole reason thatthey got into business versus
then going into more of thislike business role in that

(01:20:17):
transition.
Like we need to figure out coina term.
Coin a term.

Michelle H. (01:20:20):
There's gotta be, yes, yes.
I don't know.

Kelly (01:20:23):
There is, and I think too, I think entrepreneurscence
or something.

Michelle H. (01:20:27):
I don't know like I was like entrepreneurscence,
but that's not right.
Yeah, something shorter.

Kelly (01:20:32):
Or it's like it's like it.

Michelle H. (01:20:38):
It has to be like inflammation to me.

Kelly (01:20:40):
I know it has to mean it has to be something uh like
matrescence essence.
Yeah, essence.
Because it's or something,yeah.
Yeah, contra essence.
Yeah.
Hey, I love it.
Did we just make up with it?
I think we just did.
I think we just did.
You're there first.
We are gonna be billionaires.
Billionaires.
I love it.

(01:21:04):
Okay, so I want to make alittle bit of a ship a shift, a
pivot.
Um, we and actually it's sortof in the vein of what we were
talking about just now with thistrans, you know, the the
transition of like going frombeing in this space of working
in the business to now likeputting on a different hat.
And I think when we talked viaZoom, I might have met mentioned

(01:21:30):
the interesting um likephenomena of birthing a
business.
Yes.
And how that sort of translatesinto matrescence as well.
And so I don't exactly knowwhere I want to go with this,
but I'm wondering if you've hadany um more thoughts about that.

Michelle H. (01:21:50):
Yeah, well, I uh even on my website, I I say the
you know, our birth story.
Like it's it is the birth ofour business was definitely it
was a birth.
A story.
It was a story, yeah.
Um, and actually the theoriginal, um, like my official
name for the business isactually Olive and Hazel Health,
which is my my babies.
Um that Iavenly babies.
My heavenly babies, yeah,exactly.

(01:22:11):
Um so in many ways, like again,so I birthed them earthside
based, you know, sort of throughthis, right?
And um, so yeah, so Idefinitely think there's there's
a story there, and it's it'sthis evolution and this, you
know, this journey through youknow what I originally thought
it would look like to what it isnow.
And honestly, it's very similarto what I mean as far as like

(01:22:33):
the practice and what we do inthe practice.
Um, so we see, you know, we wetake care of people postpartum,
where we come in the home, wetake care of the moms and the
babies, they don't need to gointo the clinic at all.
Um, we're able to, you know,reduce emergency department
visits because we were able to,you know, connect with people
there.
Um, I think eventually we'll beable to have some data showing
that we're preventing maternaldeaths.

(01:22:54):
Um, I do I just think thatthere's so many things that
we're doing.
That's really lovely.
Um one thing we'retransitioning to now is uh
working to be in network withinsurance.
Um we haven't been up untilthis point.

Kelly (01:23:07):
Okay.

Michelle H. (01:23:07):
That has been a bear and something that I you
don't say.

Kelly (01:23:12):
Yeah.

Michelle H. (01:23:12):
I mean, I uh sort of thinking through.
I mean, uh one of the thingsyou'd asked, you know, sort of
in our initial stuff was um, ishave you ever thought about you
know quitting and being done?
And honestly, through thisprocess 100%.
The insurance side theinsurance side of it.
So the insurance side has putme through the ringer.
Um and talk about it.
Yeah, it's it's it is wild whatum the how corrupt and the the

(01:23:39):
sort of level of fraud and umand how to even just go into
getting connected for, you know,how getting in network and
becoming you know contracted toaccept insurance.
Um, and like the amount ofmoney I've had to spend and time
and energy and all these thingsjust to be able to accept
insurance so that people canhave access to care, um, which

(01:24:01):
is what where I've sort of movedinto and and wanted to be able
to provide.
I want to be able to have morepeople have access to our
services, um, not only for thatfor access and for care, but
also to be able to get some dataon that and be able to um to
eventually potentially publishon what we're doing, like maybe

(01:24:23):
maybe shift our whole systeminto providing this care more
for um for more people.
And in order to do that, youhave to show that it's making a
difference.
Even though I know it's makinga difference.
I know, you know, hand andfoot.
I mean, we got better lactationrates, we've got higher um
mental, you know, mental healthscores, we have, you know, less
emergency department visits, wehave all these benefits that are
coming out of it.

(01:24:43):
Um, but you know, we have toshow the data on that.
So eventually we'll have toshow and do some studies with
that.
And in order to do that, wehave to care for people from all
spectrums of life, right?
So that has to do withinsurance aspect.
And um, so yeah, I'm I'm it'sbeen wild, and we're not there
yet.
It's been a year, and I've beentrying to get these contracts,

(01:25:04):
and I'm hoping by the end of theyear we will, but that's just
getting the contracts, and I'mnot even sure what that's gonna
look like once we actually startfiling for reimbursement and
getting claims and gettingthings denied and not having um
not getting it paid for.
And so we'll see.
I mean, but it's wow, it isit's not awesome.
I'll say though, yeah.

Kelly (01:25:22):
Yeah, you I don't even want to go down this rabbit hole
to be frank with you.
I just want to like sort ofblanket statement that it's so
unfortunate that the that moneyis more important than the
livelihoods of human beings.
Yes, that is 100% what we'redoing really sort of

(01:25:43):
encapsulates the the the essenceof where our landscape of of
well par particularly the UnitedStates looks like right now,
and there's gotta be a crumblingat some point because it just
can't sustain like this anymore.
I mean, it's uh it'sunobtainable at some points for

(01:26:06):
human beings to be able to haveaccess.
And you know, for individualslike yourself that are
advocating and advocating thebest way that you know how, but
then that involves you as anentrepreneur to put money into

(01:26:27):
that advocating.

Michelle H. (01:26:28):
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, it's wild to me that Ihave to like spend so much time
and energy and money on tryingto provide a service for people
that benefits that, you know,like it just doesn't like and
it's not the thing is is it itin the grand scheme of things,
things it's not actually acontract that I have with the
insurance companies.
It's the insurance companieshave contracts with their

(01:26:48):
members, so the the patientsthemselves.
And so those contracts are whatthen dictates whether or not
I'm gonna get paid, which isthere's no other business that
has some some middleman likethat that is you know making you
know the sort of millions uponbillions of dollars, billions
and billions and billions, yeah.

Kelly (01:27:07):
And and just raking people over the coals, anyways.
I can't because this is notexactly not even solve, but
exactly we can't solve it.
Seriously, that that issomething that you're able to
move through and move throughsuccessfully, and that there's
like these barriers that canjust be broken down so that
there can be accessibilitythrough what you're providing,

(01:27:30):
which is absolutely incredible.
We're gonna make another pivot.
Yeah, love it, love it.
Okay, so I'm all over theplace.
Um I'm curious what faith haslooked like for you through all
of this.
As a physician, you know,there's the science backing and
all of that.
And so I have to imagine thatthere's been some tension points

(01:27:54):
at some point or another withwhat that's looked like for you.
Maybe not.
I have no idea.
So talk me through and talk thelisteners through what faith
has looked like in all of this.

Michelle H. (01:28:05):
Yeah, I think um sort of the best analogy I have
with that is that I when I amworking with um families and
especially um sort of mothers orbrothers, what I what I talk a
lot about is trusting themselvesand trusting their babies,
which is really hard to do.
Um because it feels likeeveryone else is telling you
what you should be doing.

(01:28:26):
Lots of you know, unsolicitedadvice, you can't do that, you
can do that, don't do that,you're gonna break the whatever,
like all these things.
Whatever.
Um, and uh and what that comesdown to is really tuning into
themselves and tuning into theirbaby and and and acknowledging
like does is my baby respondingto this and what I'm doing, and

(01:28:46):
is it um in a positive way anddoes it like it and you know,
and it's sort of good, or is itnot really working?
And it feels like that there'stension, it feels like there's
you know this space of um youknow trying to force, right?
Or again, or does it feel goodin my body or not?
Right.
Um, so same, so the same thingwith the business, because
again, it's my baby.
So um I come back to trustingmyself and trusting my baby, my

(01:29:13):
business.
So as I'm going through and asI'm making decisions, like I
sort of have faith in, you know,what leaning into that.
Like so when I do something,whatever it is, when I make a
decision about something, then II lean into hey, is how is my
business responding?
Is it in a positive way?
Does it feel like I'm forcingsomething?

(01:29:33):
Does it feel like I'm sort ofpushing it?
Does it feel like it feels goodto me?
Does it feel like it feels goodto the business?
Or is that um and then trustingthat what will come out of that
is good then?
If you know, if it's sort ofmaking sense, not to go back to
the insurance stuff, but I don'tknow that that's happening in
this space.
So we'll see.
Um but uh and that's sort ofwhere I'm struggling, I think,

(01:29:58):
the most with it, and that'swhere I feel like.
So you know, it's like, oh,just forget it.
Done.
Um, yeah.

Kelly (01:30:03):
And then the the better, better side of you is like, no,
this is important.

Michelle H. (01:30:09):
This is important.
I think it's it's maybe it'sjust a it's it's a rough patch,
it's you know, I've got somebarriers to overcome.
It's it's I love BrittanyBrown, it's a fucking first
time, you know, it's an FF umFLP, right?
So it's you know, when it's anFFP and um and that's hard, is
it just hard?
And I'm just I just need to getthrough it.

(01:30:29):
I need to move through thatchallenge.
And again, trust at the otherat the other ends of the the,
you know, that other other sideof things is gonna be better and
we're gonna find out, you know,and I won't have to do this
again.
I'm sort of like move throughit because it I you do one, you
know, something for the firsttime only once, like after that,
then you're then you're yeah,you sort of learn from it, you
can move forward.

(01:30:50):
Um so that's where it I thinkit comes for me is this space of
like how do then how do Icontinue to trust that things
are gonna work out that the theway that they were meant to work
out?
Maybe it was different thanwhat I envisioned it, that's
okay, right?
And we've even talked about themanifesting things.
Um, so putting it out there inthe world, like what do I see um

(01:31:15):
as an end point?
And maybe that journey therelooks really wonky, and maybe it
looks very different than whatI expected, but we're gonna get
there, whatever that is.
So, um, so yeah, so that'swhere my faith sort of comes
into the business aspect is is ahuge part of that trust and
really, you know, feelingthrough it.

Kelly (01:31:35):
Well, and I love that you made this point about how the
way that we envision the way ourbusiness is gonna go versus how
it actually turns outsometimes, um, is to have
malleability in all of it,right?
Um, I have spoken to this withthe the gals in my mastermind

(01:31:58):
group and I've I've talked aboutit with my accountability
partner, and I'm like, I I ampersonally going through how to
be malleable in you know beingin business with my husband and
then being in this space ofpodcasting and how I envisioned
the podcast to go versus thereality of how it's going.

(01:32:21):
Right.
Right.
And I mean it frankly, it'sit's going better than I ever
imagined, but I also havevisions of what it's gonna look
like.
And don't we all yes, yes, it'sit's alright?
Just have these, you know,these visions and these dreams.
And for you, it sounds likemanifesting is a part of that

(01:32:46):
process for you.
And for me, I sort of do thislike I I envision the positivity
in all of it, yeah, but faithfor me is God and prayer and
just really leaning into thataspect to kind of guide my
decisions, yeah, right.
And it's it's pretty powerful,no matter what how you cut the

(01:33:09):
cloth in this circumstance, whenyou put positivity towards
something, how the momentum cankeep going.

Michelle H. (01:33:19):
And trust, right?
And trusting and support,right?
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I think that there'sthere's so much to be said about
that.
And like, how do you um it'ssometimes it's so far out, like
your your vision is so far outthat you just there's you can't
there's no like you know, linethat you can possibly see that's

(01:33:40):
gonna connect that.
And that's where that faithcomes in, that there's there's
something in there that's goingto happen that you're you have
no idea why it happened.
And maybe it was something thatyou did 10 years ago that's
gonna make that connectionthere, which is wild because
that happens all the time forme.
That I'm like, thank goodness Idid that thing back then and I
had no idea.
And now this is it it sort ofallowed me to have this um this

(01:34:02):
connection.

Kelly (01:34:03):
So I've quoted Steve Jobs multiple times on the on
podcast interviews, but it'slike, and I'm paraphrasing, but
he had he had quoted about umyou can only connect the dots
backwards.
That's my words.
Oh my gosh, yes.
And it's so applicable in thiscircumstance to what you're
speaking to.

(01:34:23):
So okay, yet another pivotbecause I want to honor and
respect your time.
Um, I want to start to land theplane.
I do want to fold in motherhoodinto all of this too, because
you know, this podcast is calledReclaiming Your Hue, and it
it's about us as mothers sort ofum reclaiming an identity for

(01:34:45):
ourselves.
And I am curious what that haslooked like for you personally
as you had transitioned intoentrepreneurship and how you're
harmonizing that withmotherhood.

Michelle H. (01:34:56):
Yeah, I think that there's um when I was in the
system, I was not, I did notfeel like I was a good mother.
I was coming home stressed.
I was coming home that there Ifelt like energy was sucked from
me.
I felt like I was, I hadnothing left to give when I'd
come home to my kiddos.
Um, so that was really hard,right?
And but now I'm in a spacewhere I'm in my iki guy.

(01:35:17):
Are you familiar with thatterm?
Have we talked about that?
It's Japanese.
Yes, yes.
So you may have yeah.
Um memory.
Yeah.
It's um it's where your, it'slike a Venn diagram, where your
um passion overlaps with whatyou're good at, with what the
world needs, with what you canget paid for.
Yes.
So this like center circle ofall of those sort of combine.

(01:35:39):
Um, and when you're in yourIkigai, when you're in your
space of, you know, um energyonly flows then.
Like it's just you know, likeyou, I get energy every day from
my patients.
I feel excited and positive andconnected.
And um, and so I come home abetter mother because I'm
happier.

(01:36:00):
I'm happy, I feel like I'm I'mwhere I'm supposed to be.
I'm feeling I'm I'm working inin my element.

Kelly (01:36:06):
Yeah.

Michelle H. (01:36:06):
Um, and and also I have the flexibility and some,
you know, there's some other,you know, benefits to that.
But um, you know, I just Ithink that the it the more of us
who can work in that space andbe, and and not everyone can,
but you know, there's there'sdifferent things that sort of um
uh hinder that.
But um, but the more of us thatthat can work in that space and

(01:36:29):
really work in that energy,we're just we're it it's
inevitable you're gonna be abetter parent.
It's inevitable that you'regonna be a better partner, it's
inevitable that you're gonnasort of feel like yourself to
the greatest extent you possiblycould, right?
And then um, and then withthat, and and whenever I sort of
introduce myself, I I say I'man I'm an entrepreneur, I'm an

(01:36:50):
advocate, I'm a person, I lovechocolate.
I like these I'm a I'm a humanfor darker milk.
Dark.
I'm a dark, dark, yes.
I'm a dark.
Um, and then I'm a mother, andthen I'm a physician.
And so these other sort oflabels that you know the sort of
society has on us, um, thoseare those are other parts of me,

(01:37:10):
but I I am a human and I havethese, I'm an adventurer, I'm
you know, there's all theseother things about me that um
that I do need to stand tall inand I need to sort of
acknowledge and um and and putout to the world and really need
to remind the world and myselfof consistently.
Um and uh and so yeah, sothat's sort of the rounds of it

(01:37:34):
all.

Kelly (01:37:35):
All right, so you had mentioned this will be sort of
the the last question, meat andpotatoes question for us to
start landing the plane.
You had mentioned thechallenges that you were
experiencing, you are currentlyfacing and experiencing, like in
the raw real right now, whichis everything that's happening

(01:37:59):
with the insurance, and I canimagine.
And it like, believe me,listeners, I am like fuming
inside, even thinking about it.
It just frustrates me thinkingabout what you have to go
through.
In parallel to that, I'mcurious if there has um whether
it's through this experience ofhow everything is shaping up

(01:38:23):
with the insurance stuff, or umin another point in time, if
there was like a dark moment,like the deep valley.
We talk about the peaks andvalleys on this in on this
podcast.
I'm curious uh if there hasbeen a deep valley that you're
willing to take the listeners toand how you have moved through

(01:38:46):
that.

Michelle H. (01:38:46):
Yeah, I think that most recently was um as of
going through all this insurancestuff and sort of navigating
all of this, we've also had atthe same time this shift in um
in the political climate where Ithink people were very sort of
um held on their the economysort of was shifting, and so
people were holding on to theirmoney and there weren't they
they didn't want to pay forwellness things, right?

(01:39:08):
That things were extraneous orwhatever.
Um, and so there was sort ofthis this um sort of a bigger
dip in uh we went we were doingsort of the best we have ever
been, and then we sort of camedown and was like, oh my gosh,
what is happening here?
Um and at the same time my dadended being being very sick with
cancer and ended passing awayaround in in the midst of all of

(01:39:30):
that.
And so it just felt like, whatam I doing?
You know, like it was like allthis energy was like sort of not
aligned, like it just felt likeit was everything was all over
the place.
And um, so it was it was uhdefinitely a huge struggle.
And then after he passed, I hada lot of um a lot of challenge
with a lot of panic attacks andthings around the energy that I
had put into supporting him, um,didn't know where to go.

(01:39:52):
Like it was sort of likefloating and and you know,
moving in my brain and all thisum in a not healthy way, um,
while at the same time I wasn'tfeeling very grounded in my
business.
So it was like all of this allat once.
And um, and so that was a hugestruggle.
And I'm coming out of that now.
He he died in April.
Um, and um so it's uh we'rewe're moving through it now.

(01:40:15):
This month we had the bestmonth we've ever had.
So like it's we're I know thatthere's this like these ebbs and
flows that happen, but it'shard when there's several things
that happen all at once, youknow, sort of in the same space.
Um and you know, again, I sortof leaned into my you know,
fellow entrepreneurs, other, youknow, other people that my

(01:40:36):
colleagues of people that youknow sort of know this space and
had more, you know, wisdom inwhat that can look like.
And um, we're moving throughit.
So yeah.

Kelly (01:40:46):
And did you had you talked through sort of this
phenomena of, you know, not onlyam I experiencing what I am
with the business, but I'm alsohaving these personal
components.
And did you ask, like, what'syour perspective on this?
Have you have any of you gonethrough this?

(01:41:08):
Not no one's experience isgonna be exactly the same, but
to speak to the loss of a parentor the loss of a family member
and also having to navigatebeing a business owner too,
because the business has to keepgoing.
Yeah, yep, yeah.

(01:41:29):
But you're you're on this otherside managing through a
different kind of stress.

Michelle H. (01:41:35):
Yeah, no, and I think that was I think the
biggest thing that they sort ofemphasize is that we're all
gonna go through times where wethe business can't be the number
one, and you're having to sortof focus on something else.
It's an ancillary thing and orthe side, whatever it is.
And um, and so trusting again,coming back to the trust, like
trusting that the business canflow, you don't have to push it
forward, it can just sort of becoast for a little while.

(01:41:59):
Like you can coast and that canbe that can be okay, and then
you can come back to it when youhave that energy, that space
that makes more sense.
Um, so it doesn't necessarilyhave to be the death, it can be
uh of a loved one, it can be amove, it can be, you know,
there's a baby, it can be youknow, all these other shifts
that can happen.
Um, and those you're gonna havetimes when that that business
is gonna coast and you're gonnabe gonna have to be okay with

(01:42:20):
that.
Totally.
Which is hard for you know typeA personality folks that are
just like drive, drive, drive,like push, push, push, you know.
Are you type A?
Oh, absolutely.
Yes.
One hundred percent.

Kelly (01:42:31):
I can confirm.
Yes, yes, yeah.
Okay, thank you for um sharingsome of the vulnerability around
that.
I can't imagine that that waseasy, but these are true
realities that we asentrepreneurs experience, right?
And it's no one experiencesexactly the same, like I had

(01:42:52):
mentioned, but to speak to lossin any way, shape, or form, or
just a transition to what youwere speaking to as well, like
moving that's stressful.
Yes, yeah, having a child,that's stressful, yeah,
beautiful, but stressful.
Just energy in a differentspace, yes, time.
Yeah, so that's okay.
Absolutely.
I have thoroughly enjoyed this.

(01:43:14):
We are gonna start to land theplane, and so I always love to
ask what's a piece of advice youwould give a younger version of
yourself, knowing all that youknow in this moment.

Speaker 3 (01:43:29):
Hmm.

Michelle H. (01:43:30):
Um, I again trusting the process.
I think there's nothing thatwould have changed along the way
because so many of those piecesneeded to happen in order to
like sort of, you know, again,connecting the dots, like um
come into place.
And you know, people read mybio or they'll they'll talk to
me and they're like, You likeyou couldn't be working in a
better, like this is exactlywhere you're meant to be because
you've done all these differentthings that sort of have pulled

(01:43:51):
you into this, yeah.
This one, and there's nobodyelse in the world that has the
same training as me because I'vedone random things throughout,
you know, that sort of justbrought me here.
Um, and uh, and some of it wasduring medical school, some was
some of it was during, you know,like undergrad.
Like there's there, you know, Iwould never have known that
this was where this is all gonnacome together.

(01:44:13):
Um and yet, you know, here weare.
And so, you know, like takingone step, taking that first step
is really always it's likethat's what I when I started the
business, it was like just onestep a day, whatever it was,
just do one thing.
And it'll eventually it'll allsort of come together.
One thing each day.

(01:44:33):
And it could be sending oneemail, it could be signing one
document, it could be justlooking up one resource.
But as long as I'm doing onething each day, the tiniest
little thing, it's just gonnacome together eventually.
And so yeah, I did.

Kelly (01:44:45):
Amazing.
Yeah.
On the heels of that, what's apiece of advice you would give a
woman who is um maybe in theirfirst couple of years of
entrepreneurship right now?
And this is like the piece ofadvice that you wish was spoken
to you during that time frame.

Michelle H. (01:45:05):
Um, yeah, I think coming back to that, like just
one step in front of the other.
Really, there's coming back,like really truly um don't feel
like you have to do it all.
Like you you're never gonna beable, there's it, it feels it
feels too big when you firststart.
Um, and it can feel like, wow,there's no way I can pull this
all together.

Speaker (01:45:23):
Yeah.

Michelle H. (01:45:24):
And really just come like when you break it down
into the tiny pieces, it it'snot so hard, you know.
Um, and the the failures or thethings that like have gone
wrong have gone right thenbecause they sort of lead you
into the other direction thatthen it ends up being the path
that you were supposed to be on.
So there's not you can't gowrong because going wrong is

(01:45:45):
actually helpful.

Kelly (01:45:46):
Like it's good.
Failures or going the wrongdirection, and then all of a
sudden realizing not exactlywhat I wanted to do is is the
it's a a way to be able to pivotand pivot into the proper
direction that you know.
Exactly.
Like, gosh, I wish I would havedone that.
Yes, however, yes, exactly.
It's interesting.

(01:46:07):
I have there's been manyguests, many women who have been
on, and the the piece of advicethey would give a younger
version of themselves versus apiece of advice, it oftentimes
is very similar.
Yeah, they're very muchparallel to one another.
So thank you.
Who would be a good connectionfor you?

Michelle H. (01:46:26):
Oh, that's such a um I what I would again coming
back to if there is um abusiness out there that's
looking for us to be a part oftheir benefits package, like
just the first one, I know thatwe would be able to, you know,
sort of rock their world.
Um and that's you know, or a ora broker that sort of knows how

(01:46:50):
to navigate this space.
Um yeah, so that's that's it'sa little it's outside my reach
that I don't, it's outside mybubble, and so I'm trying to
figure out how to how tonavigate that.
Okay, wonderful.

Kelly (01:47:01):
How can our lovely listeners get connected to you
or find you?

Michelle H. (01:47:05):
Yeah, so um connected through our website
www.fourth F-O-U-R-T-HTrimester, T-R-I-M-E-S-T-E-R
docdo com.
Um I am on social media workingto be more so uh at uh yeah,
fourth trimesterdock.com.

(01:47:26):
Or not dot not fourth trimesterdoc dot com.
So fourth trimester doc.
Um I'm on on um LinkedIn, I'mon uh um TikTok, I'm on
Instagram, Facebook.
Wow.
So we're we're around.
Um I do I trying to do this uhthis sort of um series of the
shit no one warns you aboutpostpartum.

(01:47:47):
So it's all the the wild stuffthat our bodies go through that
nobody sort of warns you about.
So um it can be incredible keepputting that out there.
Um we can be like, I mean, I'vegot hundreds of ideas, I just
gotta put it on there.

Kelly (01:48:00):
Uh so yeah.
So that's where we are.
I'll make sure to add all ofthat into the show notes.
Truly such an honor and aprivilege to have you on here to
share your wisdom.
So thank you from the bottom ofmy heart.
Thank you so much for yeah,having me in your space.
I appreciate it.
You're so welcome.
I hope you have a great day.
Thank you.
Take care.
Thanks.

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Ep. 72 with Dr. Michelle Haggerty | Founder & CEO, Fourth Trimester Doc

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 72 with Dr. Michelle Haggerty | Founder & CEO, Fourth Trimester Doc