A Deeper Look at Pastoral Life: Alex Lang's Introspective Journey

Have you ever reflected on the resilience narrative for pastors and how it shapes their pastoral life? We had a riveting conversation with Alex Lang who takes us through his experiences with self-reflection and self-critique. Alex offers insights into how his introspective journey has helped him separate personal struggles from his divine calling. His enlightening perspective on pastoral resilience, has stirred reactions ranging from agreement to disagreement, and even discredit, all of which we discuss in this eye-opening episode.

As church leaders grapple with navigating their congregations through the pandemic, new challenges and opportunities arise. Alex shares his experiences with steering an aging congregation towards a more mission-centric approach in these trying times. He also opens up about his understanding of a pastor's calling, the transformative concept of a 'congregation of one', and the unique perspectives borne out of different denominational backgrounds. We take a rigorous look at the tension between loyalty to a church and the need to scrutinize its methodologies, walking a fine line that many pastors encounter.

In an increasingly isolated society, the rise of mental health issues is a concern we cannot overlook. We delve into the concept of hyper-individualism and the impact it has on communal structures and the church. We also examine the effects of market-driven megachurches, prosperity gospel, and the commoditization of the church on Christianity. Through our conversation with Alex, we explore the transformative potential of meaningful relationships in addressing these concerns. Join us for a thought-provoking dialogue that will challenge your understanding of pastoral life and the church.

Article: https://www.restorativefaith.org/post/departure-why-i-left-the-church

Website: restorativefaith.org

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Reconstructing Pastors
podcast.
I'm Ruth Lawrenson.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
And I'm Kirk Romberg.
We're recovering pastorstalking about what it looks like
to make sense of our callingand community expression on the
other side of deconstruction.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
Our hope is to create a safe space to explore the
bigger picture of the church,both the present state of the
American evangelical church andwhat the future may hold for
those who are searching for abetter way.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
We're really glad you're here.
Let's get started.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
So we are super excited today to have this
amazing conversation.
We have Alexander Lang in thehouse on Reconstructing Pastors.
Kirk, I'm so excited for thisconversation and, honestly, it's
one of those joys of thepodcasting landscape where you

(00:59):
do an episode and then you meetpeople as a result of it.
Just a little context a coupleof episodes ago, me and Kirk we
did an episode questioning thatresilience narrative for pastors
and it was based off Alex'sarticle.
We had a lovely episode there.
We really felt like it was.

(01:20):
Your article gave us this reallygood food for thought for
pastors.
And I reached out to youbecause I just thought I better
let you know that we've donethis podcast episode on your
article.
I mean, you were alreadygetting lots of attention from
the article at this point and wegot in touch and we were like

(01:41):
actually, come on, let's have a.
We'd love to hear more from you, more about your story, more
about what's going on now, someof the responses you've had.
So and you're kind enough tosay yes and you're here, and so
thank you so much, alex.
Welcome to this episode.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
Thank you for having me on.
You all did a wonderfulbreakdown of that article.
I have to admit, when you sentit to me I felt some trepidation
around listening to it becauseyou know it's hard to know what
people are going to say.
And at that point in time, whenyou wrote it to me and sent it
to me, the response amongcertain pastors had kind of gone

(02:24):
really, really kind of mean, Iguess, is what it was.
And so when you sent it to me,I was not, I was kind of in a
very defensive place.
I don't know if it was the rightplace to be, but you sent it to
me and I listened to it and Iwas pleasantly surprised, like
you all did a fantastic job ofreally digging down into the
details of, I think, a lot ofthe problems that I was just

(02:47):
bringing up, and you did them bytaking you know, your own
experience and just questioning,I think, a lot of the things
that I was questioning, askingdoes this make sense in the
context of being a pastor?
So I'm really excited to behere with you all because it's
clear to me that you have a lotof experience in kind of what
I'm talking about and you canbring a further depth to it that

(03:08):
really I couldn't bring.
At least when I wrote that andI just appreciated the way that
you talked about it I thought itwas very, very helpful and I
kind of wish maybe I'd heard itbefore I'd left the church.
It could have been helpful forme, you know.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
That's great, you know.
It's interesting that you saythat you're in a little bit of a
defensive place and I thinkwe've all been in those spaces
as we have been interacting alittle bit with you since you
sent that article out.
You've mentioned you've gottena number of responses from
people that are different fromone another.
I'm wondering if you can justshare a little bit the kind of

(03:40):
response that you received andwhat you expected, maybe what
you didn't expect and what yeah,just what was the feedback that
you got from your article?

Speaker 3 (03:53):
Well, I think it should be said that the normal
readership on my articles isabout 70 people, so I wasn't
expecting much.
To be perfectly honest with you, the maximum number of comments
I think I've ever gotten on anarticle was about six.
So when it started to kind ofspread, the first day that it
started spreading, I did readthe comments and, generally

(04:15):
speaking, I would say thecomments were very kind,
understanding.
I was particularly impressedwith the laity, the parishioners
who read it, and, kind of forthe first time I think for some
of them, they really sat thereand said, well, I didn't
understand that this is whatpeople who are in the pastor
were going through, and I justread some really interesting

(04:37):
comments.
Like you know, oh gosh, Iunload on my pastor all the time
, not thinking about how I'mjust one of many who are coming
to the pastor for advice or justfor a time of spiritual renewal
, which is not a bad thing, it'sjust that it's the.
What I was trying to get at wasit's the kind of layering, the

(04:58):
compilation of that.
Over time, that can become hard, and so that was really a
wonderful aspect to it was tosee that.
What I noticed, though, was that, as it spread.
I'm Presbyterian PCUSA, so asit started to spread beyond my
denomination in particular andinto kind of other denominations
, that's where so I kind of putit as there was agree and the

(05:21):
agree was more like we just kindof like what you guys said.
You may not have resonated withevery single thing I said, but
you at least saw the value intalking about it and that may
not have been your personalexperience, but you but you
understood like this issomething that's important to
discuss.
And then there's disagree,which is people who sat there

(05:44):
and said no, I don't, I don'tagree with that at all.
That's not my experience.
And then there was discredit.
So that's something I really dowant to talk about with you.
All is is those three things,because I think that that
response, the agreement and Iwould say agreement to be
perfectly honest with you, wasprobably about 60 to 70% of it,
and then you probably hadanother 20% that really that
were kind of into the disagree,and then that kind of spectrum,

(06:06):
the spectrum into discredit was,was very interesting to me and
I think that that's that's whatI really want to focus on, if
you know.
I want to get down into thatbecause I think there's some
really fascinating reflectionson why did people feel that need
to discredit the article?
Because it was just myexperience is not like I was
trying to say.
My experience should be yourexperience, but there was

(06:28):
something in that that causedthem to say they're neat, this
needs to be discredited.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
Yeah, thanks for that , alex.
I mean it's really fascinatingthat experience.
Like you say, you know, younormally don't, you're not
normally not exposed to thatlevel of response, and I loved
what you said about theparishioners, and I think that
there are a lot of people outthere who are congregate members
and and who wouldn't bethinking on these levels.

(06:53):
So I thought actually it was alovely piece to kind of like
provide a window in to somelevel of truth for people, and I
think that there's so manypeople who attend churches that
care deeply about this stuff,you know, but maybe they're just
not aware as much as pastorsare.
I think one of the things thatfor us, when we read the article

(07:16):
, we just wanted to take theposture of questioning and I
think that one of the thingsthat we've found is that there's
a resilience narrative thatgoes, goes around and it comes
from a really good space.
I think it comes from this like, especially from COVID.
Pastors were like really underthe pressure there, and so there

(07:39):
was an encouraging narrative.
Just to stick with it, it'sokay, you can do it.
And I think we wanted toquestion that and say hang on a
minute.
Is it okay to like?
God hasn't asked us to beresilient to an institution, you

(07:59):
know.
He's asked us to obey andlisten to his voice, and so I
think that that's kind of wherewe were leaning into the
conversation, and it's not tosay what was right, what was
wrong.
We'll all have differentopinions about some of this
stuff, but it was more a case of, like you said earlier, like
this questioning.
So I think that when you getdiscredited like that, that

(08:22):
feels hard because instead ofthat invitation to question,
it's a closed door.
You know, would you speak to alittle bit to that, to that like
your desire for people toquestion this stuff and not just
to shut the door and discredit?

Speaker 3 (08:38):
Yeah.
So I think, for for me, the,the well, because we're gonna, I
think we need to kind of likedrill down into a couple of
different things within that,because that's because that's a
complex question.
So I really think, and let's,let's talk about it in terms of

(08:59):
theology for a second, do youmind?
Would you?
Can we go there for a second?
Can we go into theology?
Okay, so I think that what'sinteresting is, I think, for a
lot of pastors and I'd beinterested to hear your take on
this, because this is gonna be atheological, probably a
theological divide with maybesome of the people who listen to
this but what I noticed is thatwhen we got into the area of

(09:23):
discrediting, there was clearlyan area of there was fear behind
those comments, and so whatthey did was they attacked.
They ended up ultimately kindof attacking different aspects
of what I was saying.
So, like the language police,that was a big one right, like I
didn't use Jesus or God enoughin my article, or I didn't talk

(09:45):
about the Holy Spirit, there wasan idea that, well, he was
never called in the first place,because if he left, like if you
leave the church, then clearlyyou don't have.
You were never called.
I've been working at the churchfor 20 years, so it's kind of
an interesting thing to say,well, now that I'm leaving, yes,
I've been at that church for 10, but now that I'm leaving,

(10:08):
that's something like they.
That's like saying, well,because you didn't do your whole
career in it, well, you werenever called at all, or you have
a lack of faith, and so therewas an interesting element to
the fear.
Part of this, and where I wannatalk about the theology, is that
I think that in some ways, byme saying these things and by so

(10:28):
many people talking about it, Ithink what it did was it was
pointing to something that thereis something fundamentally
askew with the modern church.
I think that's the fact that somany people were reading it and
replying to it and talkingabout it that there is something
fundamentally askew.
So I think if you're a pastorwho takes Ephesians five very

(10:52):
seriously, like the idea thatthe church is the bride of
Christ, right, then you'reprobably going to struggle to
see the flaws because to you,probably the church and I think
it's a spectrum of how peoplesee it you're going to see the
church as being put forth by Godand therefore, as an
institution, the institution ofthe church is in the mirror

(11:17):
image of God, that there's agoodness to it, that there's
almost a perfection.
I would think some peopleprobably believe that that is
not true.
For me, I separate theteachings and the movement of
Jesus from the church itself.
So to me, the teachings and themovement, those are the
original, pure ideas behind whatJesus was here to do.

(11:39):
And then the church is thehuman structure that carries
forth Jesus's movement in theworld.
And because I see those thingsas being very separate and
distinct, I have no problemcriticizing the church as an
institution, because I see it ascreated by humans.
And I think history bears me outon this one, because if you
just look historically at theharm the churches done over the
centuries from wars topersecuting dissenting voices,

(12:02):
to sexual abuse, to bigotry andsexism and anti-Semitism and
homophobia and racism andslavery I mean the list is very
long of what the church has done.
So for me, I don't have aproblem criticizing the church
and saying the church as aninstitution needs to change,
because if you're going to getto the core of what we're here

(12:23):
to do, which is to be disciplesof Jesus I loved how you all
talked about that in when youwere talking about my article.
That's, our job is to be adisciple of Jesus, and what ends
up happening is thisinstitution, I think, is
standing in the way of that.
And I think that's where thefear was, is that they were
saying this guy is talking aboutthis in such a way that it's

(12:46):
going to discredit the church,and so they wanted to discredit
me.
And I think that's where I felta lot of that, where I felt a
lot of fear coming from.
I don't know if you would nowyou didn't read those comments,
I don't know if you did, butthat's where I kind of started
to see the assessment and I'd beinterested to know your
reflection on that.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yeah, I mean, as you're talking, it's, everything
is resonating, and you rattledoff quite the laundry list that
can be tacked on to what we callthe church or the institution.
But I think it's.
I think you're spot on inrecognizing the fact that there
is a distinction between themovement of Jesus and the world
and what we call church, and wetalked about that in one of our

(13:29):
conversations episodes earlier,where even as early on as
Augustine, he differentiatedbetween the trellis and the vine
, and the vine is thelife-giving movement of Jesus in
the world, which is his bride,which is his church, if we want
to use that phrase or that word.

(13:51):
And then there's the trellis,which is our human constructs
that we develop in order tosupport, and it can get
confusing and sometimes weenmesh the two together as being
one and the same, when reallythat the church is the people.
You strip everything away, the501C3, you strip away the
building, you strip away thedenominational system and the
structures and the paperwork andthe computers and the

(14:12):
responsibilities and the jobdescriptions, and what you have
left is people, and that is thechurch.
I mean, if we think about Jesuscoming for his church or
restoring all things in theworld, he's not coming back for
his massive collection of 501C3s, he's coming back for people
and that's it.
And he doesn't see adistinction between this group

(14:35):
and that group and the othergroup, it's all his.
And so when you talk about thediscredit, I think you're very
insightful in recognizing thefact that, oh, I have to defend
this.
Therefore, to do that, I haveto discredit you, and that's
uncomfortable.
But I think it also points outthe journey process that maybe a

(14:56):
lot of people are on when itcomes to separating out what is
ours and what actually is God's,and what's God's is to be
protected.
But you're right on, we can Imean, it's fair game to self
critique and to reflect on ourown structures.

(15:21):
I think it was was this you canprobably correct me on this one
of you two is that a self, anunexamined life, is a life not
worth living, and we talk aboutthat in relationship to
ourselves.
We don't necessarily talk aboutthat in relationship to what we
produce.
And if we have God in our camp,so to speak, then certainly we

(15:42):
must protect that, becausethat's the same as protecting
God.
And so there's this separatingout what we have enmeshed, and I
think that's a journey that alot of people are going through.
But that leaves me to wonderwhen that journey began for you,
this separating out betweenwhat's ours and what's God's,
and maybe, more specifically,when you started to have some,

(16:08):
some thoughts, just kind ofbackpedaling a little bit about
maybe you're called, but this isnot what you signed up for,
kind of a thing.
Can you speak a little bit intothat?

Speaker 3 (16:21):
Sure, when I became the pastor of the church that
I'm currently or that I just, Iguess now I'm the ex pastor of
or have retired from I don'tknow how you put it but I became
that when I was 33.
So I was very young to be aheadof staff at that time and it

(16:43):
was a real opportunity.
Something that I don't know ifyou all took the time to
actually watch the sermon that Ipreached from that last Sunday
but something that I took a lotof painstaking time to talk
about was I wanted them tounderstand how much I
appreciated that they took achance on me because I brought
something to the table that wasvery different from what you

(17:05):
normally get in the Presbyterianchurch.
At that level, You're usuallyhiring somebody in their late
40s, early 50s, so they reallywere taking a chance on somebody
who was young and somewhatinexperienced, and so I came
into it with this with the kindof a grand vision.
Matthew 25 is really my go to,so I really believe so strongly

(17:25):
in that.
I'm gonna say that before thedenominations started taking
that on kind of in like the lateteens, and when I got there I
said, look, this is what we'redoing, guys.
I really believe that we arehere to feed the hungry, give
drink to the thirsty, clothe thenaked, welcome the stranger,
care for the sick, visit thosewho are in prison.
Those are the things that weare called to do as outlets of

(17:48):
our faith, and we're gonna makethat happen.
And so I started working veryhard to kind of move, move.
And so what are yourdenominational backgrounds?
Just so that I get a littlesense of it Are you guys
mainline or are you outside ofthat?

Speaker 1 (18:04):
Well, I've come from more of the free evangelical
church scene, a few differentversions of that and Kirk.

Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah, I have a mixture.
I was born and raised in theevangelical Lutheran Church of
America and then, when I was alate teenager, I became a part
of the non-denominationalChristian Church Churches of
Christ, eventually became a partof the Christian Emissionary
Alliance denomination, which isan evangelical denomination, and

(18:33):
then, as of late, have beenmore associated with
non-denominational charismatic.
So there's quite a mixture.

Speaker 3 (18:42):
Yeah, that's a, you guys have a.
Okay, so then we represent kindof three different types of
Christianity for sure.
So if you know anything aboutlike Presbyterianism, have you
ever heard frozen chosen?
Are you aware of that term?
So, frozen chosen?
The reason why they say that isbecause Presbyterianism finds
its theological basis inCalvinism generally, which is,

(19:04):
you know, his most famousdoctrine is predestination.
So the idea that you are chosenby God, like you are elected by
God, and that that election isessentially there's nothing, if
you really break it down,there's nothing you can do to
get you into heaven which Iloved because to me what that
meant was, if God's got thatunder control, then for me I can

(19:27):
focus on this world.
I don't have to worry about thenext.
That's not.
My focus is the next.
So where the frozen chosenbecause you're chosen, you're
elected by God, but you'refrozen because they just sit
there and they just stare at you.
Wow, you preach like they'reknown for being very silent,
very reverent.
You know, in thosedenominations, the main line

(19:48):
denominations are dying rightnow.
In fact.
I mean, if you look across alldenominations, there is a
decline.
You can see that from the Pewresearch, but we are
experiencing the steepestdecline, and so to me, I felt
that one of the most importantways that we would be able to
overcome that was by basicallyliving the faith out.

(20:11):
We are kind of known in thePresbyterian Church as being
very socially conscious, so theidea was I wanted to put that
into practice, like let's go dothose things in Matthew 25 and
let's get out of the frozen partof being the chosen.
And they responded very well toit initially, and then what
ended up happening was, you know, I had given a talk early on in

(20:37):
the church and if you just dothe numbers, like just do the
demographic numbers in ourchurch we were, the average age
in our congregation was likeover 65, something like that
which is different from yourdenominations generally.
You know, you can skew younger,for us much, much older.
So if you just do like thedeath rates I was just saying
like, we would have 600 peopleon a Sunday, which for our types

(21:00):
of churches is a lot of people.
The average size of acongregation in the Presbyterian
Church is probably about 100.
So for us to have 600 people ona Sunday, that's a big church
for us.
And they were looking around andthey were saying this is great.
Everything's gonna go onforever like this and I tried to
say no.
Unless we make some really,some really bold moves and we do

(21:21):
some things in the community,that's really going to show
people kind of who we are andexpress kind of God's love to
them.
I think that what's gonnahappen is we are going to shrink
over time and it's gonna becomeharder and harder and harder
for us to maintain.
So I had, if I'm being honestwith you about kind of I had
this whole big plan and weneeded to and I wanna talk a
little bit about kind of howlike this idea, because you talk

(21:45):
about like CEOs and things likethat, like this thing.
But I was really looking towardsthe future.
I had this big plan that I wasputting in place and I had been
working for five years to get itorchestrated.
So I've been kind of likeworking with our elders, our
session to get it all in placeand it was supposed to launch in
2020.
That was the year that it wassupposed to take off.

(22:05):
So all of these various piecesthat I've been working on for
five years sacrificing forgetting forming relationships,
getting ready to kind of do thisthing If we get to 2020 and you
know what happened?
It all tanked.
So everything that I had workedtowards was basically wiped out
, like none of it worked,because everything kind of

(22:26):
stopped.
And that was a time ofself-reflection.
I had sacrificed a lot in thattime with my family.
I was never around.
I was constantly at the church,I was constantly working with
leadership and I was just theretrying to do this.
And then, when it kind of fellapart, I had this real come to
Jesus moment where I askedmyself is this like?

(22:50):
What are you gonna do?
How are you gonna like?
What are you gonna do afterthis?
Are you?
Because there's no way.
We had to do it from a place ofstrength.
We couldn't have done itotherwise.
And now, post pandemic,everybody was just trying to
pick up the pieces the best thatthey could, and so I started
asking myself the question God,where do I fit in?
And all this?

(23:10):
Because I am not a I cannot bea hospice pastor to a church,
meaning I can't be the type ofpastor who helps a church kind
of die.
I guess it's not where I am, andthere are a lot of pastors who
and I don't say this to bejudgmental at all.
This is where a lot ofPresbyterian pastors are today,

(23:31):
because their churches arestruggling, and so they are
essentially trying to help, likethey're not rejuvenating,
they're not coming back, sothey're trying to figure out how
do we kind of die with dignity,which is a horrible thing for
us to be looking at as adenomination but I mean, we're
closing churches left and rightand it's because there's just
not enough people to maintainthem any longer, and so I think

(23:53):
I had to ask myself the questiondoes it make sense to continue
to go forward if this is whatthe church is going to be, or is
the reformation that's takingplace before our eyes, which is
happening literally right now aswe speak?
Do we need to just if you wannabe kind of a mover in that do
we start to need to thinkcompletely differently, which I

(24:13):
think is a lot of what you guysare starting to talk about.
Which is why I liked yourpodcast so much is because I
think that's where you guys aregoing.
You see the reformationhappening, and I think the
question is where does that leadus?
Like, where do we go with that?
And so the questions that thebig question was.
I've only ever wanted to be apastor my whole life, and so
does that mean now that byleaving like, have I abandoned,

(24:34):
like, what some of those peoplewere accusing me of?
Am I abandoning my call?
I would say no, I don't thinkthat I am.
I think you can be called to bea pastor in so many different
types of environments, and theinstitutional church is just one
.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
Thank you, alex.
I love what you just landed onbecause I think part of our work
is because we're coaches.
We coach pastors who are goingthrough this very thing.
And I'm glad that you broughtup COVID because actually, well,
it was seen as something thatwas, you know, so much pressure,
and it could be seen as thismassive disaster for the church,

(25:12):
which in some ways it was.
You know.
It brought us to a very weakspot.
Many churches and pastorsexperienced incredible pressure
during that time, and yet italso could be seen as a very
gift, you know, a gift from God,where it allowed us to stop and

(25:32):
question.
I'm reminded of, you know, it'sin our weakness that he is
strong, you know, and so Iwonder whether there was a
weakness there, a vulnerabilitythere for the church that God
was working within.
And I think what you justdescribed is something that we
hear a lot of like.
We're hearing the same storiesall around America of pastors

(25:57):
who, you know, in that time ofCOVID, in the pressure there is
like hang on a minute, okay, myplans have stopped, but maybe we
should just question the plans.
Maybe God's saying somethinghere and I think that that
juncture put them into thatreconstructing framework of what

(26:17):
is next.
But I wanted just to talk alittle bit about calling because
I love what you said.
I felt when you said earlierabout how people were
questioning whether you wereeven called to that.
That felt really hard to me.
I was like ow, that I couldfeel like if I had heard that
that would have hurt me, becausecalling is something so cool

(26:41):
and it's something that is mostof us as pastors have poured our
lives into.
And, like you, talk about thecost as well of some of those
decisions and you know we'vementioned this before in prior
episodes.
But we believe we're with you.
We believe that we're firstcalled to following Jesus and
ministering in that space andwe're not actually necessarily

(27:05):
called to an institution as ourprimary calling.
Now we can feel that that'svery much part of our calling to
align ourselves with aninstitution, but it's not
dependent on who God's called usto be as ministers to a broken
world, as ministers of good news.
So I just wanted you to speak alittle bit more into that.

(27:28):
How does that feel now?
Like now you're, you calledyourself, you know a retiree
pastor or ex pastor, you don'treally know what language to put
and then you've also receivedsome quite harsh comments from
people trying to even discreditthat, calling how do you land on
that now for you internally,what keeps you going Like, what

(27:49):
makes you know that, actuallyknow, I am called.

Speaker 3 (27:52):
Well, I mean, I guess deep down inside and this will
kind of give you a little bit ofa sense of who I am as a person
so my family actually is.
It's very interesting and Iactually talked about this on
another podcast that I was on,but I'm gonna say it here
because I think it actuallyspeaks into it which is that my

(28:16):
family, on both my wife and onmy side, our fathers, are Jewish
and we have like, but we'reboth Hungarian Jewish, which is
kind of weird, because it's notlike I met her and knew any of
that.
It's just kind of like, youknow, we met and we fell in love
and then I was like, oh, that'sso strange, you know.

(28:37):
So we found out about ourselves.
So we have this Jewish side tous and in Judaism, I think it's
a critical element of Judaism.
Judaism is different fromChristianity.
Christianity tends to be aboutcertainties, the certainty of
belief, the certainty of thingsthat you know.
If you believe this, then thiswill happen.
In Judaism, it's about thetension between it's literally

(29:02):
the Jacob wrestling with God.
That's what you're living inthe tension of the questions,
and there tends to not be a lotof answers to that.
I am very comfortable in thatspace, which I think is why my
congregation was not supercomfortable with me a lot of the
times, because I was not thetype of person who gave a lot of
solid answers.
My perspective was always I'mgonna give you guys information,

(29:26):
I'm gonna give you differentways to think about this.
You have to go out and you haveto use this and integrate this
into your faith life.
I am not going to give you,though, the way to do that.
It is up to you to make thathappen.
So I fundamental to my natureand my being, is this wrestling
component, and so I continue todo that I love even now I'm

(29:50):
working on another book that I'mabout to put out.
I love thinking about theseideas.
I love talking to people at thegym.
I work out all the time.
I'm constantly talking topeople at the gym about this.
I see it as you are a pastor,irrespective of whether or not
you have a church congregationto preach, to Like, you're there

(30:13):
to talk to people all the time,and so I think that will come
through in everything that I doand the calling.
I make a joke.
There's a guy who I'm workingout with right now.
He's a big guy and I work, youknow I've been training him.
He's lost like 60 pounds and Ijoke, now he's my congregation
of one that I get to speak toevery week, cause we have these

(30:33):
long conversations in betweenour sets where we talk about it.
I think that, as a pastor, Ithink I would go this way Once
called, always called.
I think that once you feel thatcalling, even if you leave the
church, that calling is stillthere.
It is the manifestation of thatcalling that matters of how is
God asking you to manifest thatcalling in the world right now?

(30:55):
And I really believe you know,with this new business that I'm
going to start, which we cantalk about at a certain point,
this is the next step in mycalling.
In fact, I think it willprobably be much more effective
than I ever was in theinstitutional church if I can
get it up and running properly.
So we will see where that leads.
But I really believe, oncecalled, always called, and I
don't think you can ever reallyabandon that.

(31:16):
I just think you change theenvironment in which you're
serving.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
I love that congregation of one and I feel
like that's a vision actually,and I think on the on the other
side of the coin of this, youknow, not only have we got some
misunderstandings around thecalling of a pastor, but
potentially for the congregants,we have misunderstandings of
the calling.
You know, the priesthood of allbelievers and I think when you

(31:46):
said that, alex, I was justthinking can you imagine if
everyone just felt like walkedaround and felt like, okay,
where's my congregation of one?
Because for me, that's anexciting body of Christ, that
that that makes me feel like Iwould want to associate myself

(32:08):
with that group of people whoare going back their days going.
I'm going to have acongregation of one.
How, who can I love?
And so, yeah, thanks forsharing that.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
I love that.
Yeah, I was going to say I lovethat because you know what.
What you're saying is you takeownership for not only your
relationship with Christ that isliving in active, but how that
is expressed in the world aroundyou, which is which is
ultimately what we would hopefor everyone and those who share
maybe what we might calltraditionally a call to the

(32:37):
pastorate.
We're simply trying to helpothers do the same thing, but
we're going to do it one way orthe other, and leadership is
leadership, whether that's froma pulpit or by example, and I
love the fact that, whether youare in the traditional lane or
you are following Jesus into anew lane, there's what you're
saying is ownership, and thatownership is spearheaded by your

(33:00):
personal pursuit of God in yourlife which, by the way, is not
static, it's dynamic.
He's the same yesterday, todayand forever, but our
relationship with him changes aswe pursue him and as we grow
and as our understanding of himexpands, and our issues in the
world and what it looks like toexpress his love into the world

(33:23):
is hopefully changing andgrowing as we're changing and
growing on the inside, which, bythe way, is a gift.
I want to circle back slightly.
So just acknowledge myappreciation for what you've
said.
You brought to the pulpit isthe information, different ways
to look at it and here's somequestions you can ask.

(33:45):
But you do the thinking andcome to the conclusions.
I love that so much and I thinkthe other way is here's what it
says and here's the answers.
And you know just a product ofyou know I could be wrong by
this, but it seems like aproduct of rationalistic society
which, you know, postenlightenment is all about the

(34:05):
cognitive journey as opposed toa holistic journey into the
heart of God and people in theworld.
And I'm hearing somethingholistic from you that is to me
a beautiful expression of apursuit of God in your life.
So thank you for sharing thatgift with us and for continue to
live that out faithfully.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
Yeah, I wanted to bring this up because I think
it's important.
You mentioned, you know, youtalked about how you at COVID
right, you started to kind ofquestion.
I think that what I've heardfrom you so far, alex, is this
tension of you know, at thatpoint, that loyalty to something

(34:46):
, to the institution, to thecall, and then when you start to
question, it feels like there'sso much tension in that space
because I and as you, as you,shared, I remember my own
journey.
And one thing also, I meanwe've had a guest that we
absolutely adore, terry Welling.
He's got a book coming out sooncalled unlikely nomads, and one

(35:09):
thing that Terry he's coachedpasses for decades now.
But one thing that he says isthat the people who are on the
on the front end of thisreformation are not the people
who don't care for the body ofChrist church, they're the
people who thrown their livesinto this, you know.
They're the people who have,you know, have been thinking and

(35:31):
dreaming and passionate aboutseeing God's family come alive
for such a time as this, andthey're the ones who are leaving
.
And so I remember when I readyou know he asked us to read his
book in preparation, but Iremember reading that and just
feeling so emotional becauseit's just the validation of that
.
Because of that tension, I thinkthat a lot of pastors can feel

(35:54):
like judged or misunderstood.
Or am I actually being disloyalhere by even questioning some
of this stuff?
I mean, am I just being supercritical?
You know, I think those are thethought, those are the things
that go around our minds and Ithink that people in this space
of reconstructing pastors thatwould be that a lot of listeners

(36:17):
be their experience to.
So I'm just curious, alex, ifyou've got any advice for people
who find themselves in thatspace of they are questioning.
If they're being honest withthemselves, there's something in
them that doesn't settle whenthey look at some of this stuff,
but then they don't want to bethe the critical one, they don't

(36:39):
want to be the disloyal one.
They they want to actually bepart of the solution, not just
talk about the problem, right?
So what would you say to peoplein that who find themselves in
that space?

Speaker 3 (36:50):
I think that you're bringing up probably one of the
most important things, which isthat I think, as a pastor, there
is an expectation that you arenot supposed to be critical of
the institution.
Like you're the, you're theultimate cheerleader for the
institution.
Why wouldn't you, why would you, wouldn't become a pastor
otherwise?
Right, you must believe in itwholeheartedly and I think as

(37:12):
pastors we're not supposed to.
You know, we're not supposed toleave the church or called by
God, we're the ones who arewilling to sacrifice, suffer,
die for our beliefs.
And if somebody is leaving,then I think what that does is,
again, I think it there's a,there's a sense of, oh my God,

(37:34):
like if I leave then, then thenwhat's going to happen?
You know, what does that sayabout me and what does it say
about the church?
And I think I want to go backto Kirk's thing.
I think that it doesn't saynecessarily anything about like
you're, you're placing so muchvalue on the institution itself

(37:54):
and you're not seeing kind ofGod can do so many more things.
A new thing is happening, right, the Isaiah text Like God does
that, irrespective of what we doin our in, in kind of our
workings of things.
And so I would say the advice Iwould give that is this you
have to do a cost benefitanalysis.
So and I think the end and Iand I hate to put it that way

(38:19):
like hope, it doesn't sound likebusiness, see too much, but,
but we're going to get into thebusiness, consumeristic side of
things.
But I think that there's aquestion of when you go to
church and when you, as thepastor of the church, are people
benefiting from therelationship that's being formed
there?
Are they better for steppingthrough the doors and are they?

(38:41):
Are they emerging out of itdeeper disciples of Jesus?
If the answer to that is yes,and you feel that you, as a
facilitator of that, are makinggood progress and you are doing
that work in good conscience,keep going, don't stop like
that's great.
But if, in that cost benefitanalysis, if you feel that

(39:01):
people are not leaving betterthan when they enter, if they're
, if they're not engaging withthe gospel in a way that creates
positive change, that they'rebecoming more like Jesus, then I
think that in that cost benefitanalysis you have to step back
and say, okay, what is it aboutthe situation?

(39:22):
Is it me, is it the?
Is it the the community?
Is it just that we've kind ofhit a point, or do they need new
leadership?
I came to a point with my churchwhere I realized a I needed.
Not only did I need to move onand do something different, but
this my community needed a newpastor with new ideas and a new
approach that they heard from mefor 10 years.

(39:44):
I felt that I was not makingthe same advances within their
faith journeys that I needed tobe helping them with, and part
of that is because we all haveour limitations and our
perspectives can only push aperson so far and sometimes you
just come to this stasis and acommunity and so for some

(40:04):
pastors I think it might be do Ineed to move on to a different
community?
I think for some pastors rightnow in particular because you
all are actually looking at thison a deeper level I think that
a lot of them, I think that mostpastors today going to seminary
I would not train them to gointo the institutional church.
I would actually be trainingthem to do something far
different, because I don't seethat.

(40:24):
I don't see the institutionalchurch as the future.
I don't I'm not trying to saythat it's not worth investing in
.
For some people.
That is still very important,but I see that the future of the
church is going to be somethingwildly different than what
we've known, particularly forthe last 500 years, which is
what came out of the Reformation.

Speaker 2 (40:44):
Yeah, I think that's really well said because I think
it challenges.
You know, where is our faith?
Is it?
Is it in the institution or isit in God, who never changes
he's?
He's, he's our source ofsecurity, which means if God is
my security, then I can questionthe institution, knowing that
questioning the institution isnot the same as questioning my

(41:06):
faith, which, by the way, is OKto question our faith, and let
me just throw that out there andto question different aspects
of our faith, because that'sindication that something is
alive on the inside.
My opinion.
But questioning the institutionis simply a matter of
questioning the methodology.
I mean, you mentioned a numberof methodological issues in your

(41:26):
article which I think arethings that tend to be in the
back of pastors heads In anycase, I know they were in mind
things like the consumeristicbehavior of parishioners or the
pastor, a CEO, or dispelling the, the pillar of virtue idea,
that that we, you know this,this role model of perfection,

(41:49):
and, and these are things thatkind of were in the background,
and I wonder if COVID didn'tjust push a lot of those things
and the other things that youmentioned in your article right
to the foreground and caused anumber of people or are even at
this moment causing a number ofthose who are serving in the

(42:09):
traditional capacity to take alook and say wait, this is, this
is a moving train that I'm notsure is healthy or healthy for
me to be on anymore.
What does it look like?
Do I change it?
Do I get off it and it andthose questions are not only

(42:30):
healthy, but it's not the sameas questioning our faith and I'm
wondering if you can kind ofspeak to a little bit of that
part of your journey, just this,this questioning of methodology
and some of the things that Imean.
You mentioned a few moments agothe consumeristic tendencies
pastor, a CEO and I'm wonderingif you can speak a little bit
into that part of your journey.

Speaker 3 (42:52):
Actually.
So those the seven, the sevencompetencies that I came up with
, that I mentioned in my article.
I had written those down abouta little bit before COVID, I
remember I wrote them downbecause I was thinking about
them.
I was like, oh, maybe I'llwrite a little thin book about
these at some point in time,just because I was feeling kind

(43:14):
of overwhelmed at that point andI was thinking about all the
things that I had to do to kindof keep the church going, and it
just felt overwhelming, and soI just started like I was like
kind of writing them down.
And it was actually in themidst of also me reflecting on,
there was a group of people whowere trying to oust me from my
congregation, and so at thatpoint in time I was thinking

(43:36):
about kind of some of thisconsumeristic behavior.
And actually so I'm a studentof history, would you mind.
I was wondering if I could kindof tell a little story to you
all, because I think it's afascinating story of kind of how
we got to where we are today.
And so you all are probablyaware, you probably know Willow

(43:57):
Creek, you've heard of it before.
Okay, so Willow Creek, do youknow the story of how it began,
because it's actually right inmy area.
So, yeah, Bill Hybles, who wasthe pastor of that church.
What he did was so this is inthe 70s, he actually went to
college for business and what hedid was when he came back, he
started, he decided he was goingto apply business principles to

(44:19):
beginning his church and whathe did was he went from door to
door polling people who didn'tgo to church and he asked like
what are you looking for?
Like literally just trying todo like a market survey, what
are you guys looking for?
Why aren't you there?
And what he heard informed thetype of experience he ultimately
created, and what most peoplesaid was they found church to be
boring, and so he was one ofthe first pastors to really

(44:44):
attempt to make churchentertaining.
Like he stripped out all theliturgy which in the frozen,
chosen big part of our church.
He stripped all that out and,rather than just preaching every
week, he would utilize, youknow, actors from his
congregation and they would doskits and plays.
People in our area they wouldtalk about.
If you want to experienceEaster and Christmas, you got to

(45:05):
go to Willow Creek because theywould put on these massive,
unique, high level productionsand the music was akin to like
these, like they were reallyhigh level, professional
musicians Like you would findthat.
You know it was what you wouldfind, you know, at some of the
best concerts around the country.
And I've been to the actualchurch and it's I mean it's like

(45:26):
you're in this huge, massivespace, it's like a studio.
I mean literally you're insideof a studio with lights and all
kinds of different things likethat.
But something that's even moreinteresting than just the fact
that he was able to kind of comeup with this experience is that
he used business principles tobuild the congregation.
So what he did was he actuallydecided that Sundays were for

(45:50):
seekers.
Anybody who wanted to come tothe church and check it out, you
came on a Sunday.
But if you were a member, youwould come on Wednesdays,
wednesday nights.
That was your service, becauseyou know you would kind of
sacrifice that.
And there was an expectationthat you would give a full tithe
because I mean their budget waslike 40, 50 million a year.
It was a huge amount of money.

(46:11):
And there was also theexpectation that you would
recruit new families into thecongregation.
It's the business equivalent ofsaying like hey, have you tried
this new version of Diet Coke?
And your job was to give themnew Diet Coke.
Enough that they started makingthe decision to come on their
own to become members, and thenthe same expectation was placed

(46:33):
on them.
And so when he started this inthe 70s because he applied this
principle to it it grew to30,000 people and among
religious sociologists it's likeone of the first major
megachurches, and he wastreating Christianity like a
product that was marketed andsold.

(46:54):
And so what ended up happeningwas people, evangelicals in
particular.
He created this leadershipsummit where he would bring
pastors in from all over thecountry to teach them how to
replicate his program.
Now, what's so fascinatingabout this is that, of course,
he would say, and others whokind of used his method would
say well, all of thatentertainment is window dressing

(47:15):
for getting people to the doorso they could expose them to the
gospel message.
And, to be fair to BillHighbulls and the people at
Willow Creek, they were ferventbelievers, those people, they
really did believe it.
But what this did was is it seta precedent?
The church was a product and ifmarketed in the right way, you
could get more people to consumeit.

(47:35):
But fundamentally this changedthe way that people started
thinking about the church.
So, whereas in the past youwere attached to a denomination
like Presbyterianism and youattended because your family had
been part of that forgenerations my family and my
hometown of Virginia have beenpart of our church since the
1800s.
They were part of the foundingmembers of that church.
So now people start looking atit and saying, well, what is

(47:58):
this doing for me?
What am I getting for my money?
Do I like the sermons?
Do I like the music?
Because if I don't, I will tryto find a product that better
suits my desires.
And I think that's really atthe core of when we get into the
personality-driven ministries,because it's not just the.

(48:20):
You all brought this up and Ilove what you said in the last
time you said this.
This was a great, great thingthat you said.
You said isn't it supposed tobe?
Aren't people supposed to lovethe message and not the preacher
?
I don't remember which one ofyou said that, but one of you
said that and I thought I waslike, yes, that's so fascinating
, right, but isn't itinteresting how you can have two

(48:40):
people who say the exact samemessage, but the one with the
magnetic personality willreceive more responses.
The better packaging always wins, and I think that if you and do
you mind me just going on justa little further with this,
because I think this is sofascinating what's happened as a
result of this is that we'vecreated a very watered-down

(49:03):
Christianity.
We don't want to challengepeople too much, like I've heard
people say about Willow Creek.
You can go to Willow Creek andnot even realize you're
listening to a sermon.
That's how, the way that theystructure it, in such a way that
it's kind of like you don'teven realize you're in church,
so much so we give them themessage in little drips that are

(49:23):
easily consumable and then whathappens is how the gospel has
to really fundamentally changewho we are as people.
That's left out and, if I thinkabout it, arguably the most
popular pastor in the countrytoday is Joel Osteen.

(49:44):
Arguably he's the most popularpastor.
He preaches prosperity gospel,which, in a nutshell, states
that God and Jesus want you tobe successful and have lots of
money.
Now, I don't think Jesus eversays that in the gospels.
In fact, he says the exactopposite.
What's Matthew 6, 24?
No one can serve two masters.
You cannot serve God in wealth.

(50:06):
Luke, chapter 14, 33.
So, therefore, none of you canbecome my disciple if you do not
give up all your possessions.
That's like one of the mostdamaging verses out there, like
literally.
He's like you've got to giveaway everything if you want to
be with me.
And yet the prosperity gospelis not just the most popular
Christian message in the UnitedStates, it's the most popular

(50:27):
Christian message around theworld, and at the helm of those
messages are these pastors whohave built these massive
megachurches.
That is very geared towards aconsumeristic way of thinking
about Christianity.
So I think that that historyjust speaks to the problem Like
it started in the 70s, and we'reseeing the manifestation of
that today in a huge way, whichI think a lot of people just see

(50:50):
the fact that it's not, that'snot life changing.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
Wherever you find yourselves in that idea of
business model, ceo andconsumers and if we say it like
that, it sounds crass when youapply that to church.
But I think the point for me,regardless of where you find
yourself, is impact, the impactthat it's having on believers,

(51:21):
and I think you just mentionedit.
You said that we seem to have awatered down version, and my
leaning and my intuition, alex,is that there is like an ache
that is coming out of the bodyof Christ now, not just from
pastors, but including pastors,but from congregants, from

(51:42):
people who have been followingJesus, and I think the ache is
to say, actually, whilst we cancollude with this, we can go
along and you can give me what Ifeel like I need, and there's
this kind of Sunday centricitything.
Actually, deep down there isn'tlike an explosion of life,

(52:09):
which I think we all deep downknow can happen, you know, and
so I wonder whether that's whatwe're.
You know, we don't like it insome ways.
We don't need to give acritique on business model and
CEO.
I think there's an intuition inall of us that feels like you
know what?
There's something more to thebody of Christ than that,

(52:33):
because what it produces ispeople who pay a subscription
and like come along once a weekand then go away again, and
that's a very simple version,simple way of describing it.
But and I think that what I'mhearing from around the world is
that and I do think this is themove of the spirit and I do

(52:56):
think this is what Jesus isdoing in this church is that
there is an ache that people arefeeling to be like free from
that, like free from those, freefrom that consumption, even
free to.
I loved what you said earlierabout when you were doing, when
you were like leaving yourchurch, you would kind of put a

(53:17):
few things but you'd say to themget out there, you figure out
you.
You go out and figure out howyou're gonna be, and I think
we're it, we're.
It reminds me I mean thisthought just came up to my mind,
but it reminds me of the filmWally.
You know, Wally, yeah, wherethey're all just kind of like in
their chairs, like everyonedoesn't like that.
It might be comfortable and itmight feel like safe and but

(53:43):
actually, deep down, we knowthat we need to walk and we need
to eat healthy and we need toget out there and feel like
we've got life inside us againand I think, see, I'm preaching
now, so you've got to stop me.
But you know, like that, thatfor me is is is what would
happen into.
It's not about just likesitting here from a high tower

(54:03):
criticising the business modelof church.
It's about tapping into whatJesus is doing in the body and
he's reawakening an ache forpeople, all people, to be
ministers of the gospel.
I think so.
What do you think about that?

Speaker 3 (54:22):
yeah, no, I would say that that's true.
I think that there is a desire,for I think that, within the
moment that you startadvertising the church as a, or
you commoditize it, the momentyou start commoditizing the
church as a product, it's themoment that you're trying to you

(54:45):
take the edge out of it.
I mean to me, and I think this,and I've said this many times
and I think it's reallyimportant, and I heard it when I
was in seminary a professor ofmine said that if you're
preaching the gospel correctly,your church will get smaller, it
will not get larger.
And the reason why he said thatis because Jesus's message,

(55:05):
fundamentally, is a hard message.
It is a challenging message.
It's a message that I mean,just just look at what happened
to him.
Right, he's got all thesepeople in Galilee and they're
all kind of like, oh, he's sogreat, he's wonderful, right.
But as the message gets harderand he talks more about
sacrifice, what happens?
He gets closer to Jerusalem,all those people start to fall

(55:27):
away and by the time he gets tothe end, he's completely alone.
And so the message, when youstart to preach it, I think,
according to the way that hetalks about it, it is a
life-giving message, but it's ahard message.
Like it you have to you, youhave to reassess, like what you
have to reassess everythingabout how you live your life.

(55:49):
You know the whole idea ofdying to self.
Well, you're, you're dying,you're, you're literally
crucifying this part of yourselfthat is selfish and you're
replacing it with somebody whois selfless.
You're placing it with whoJesus is and you're like,
literally, you're insertingJesus into your heart and you're
letting that drive you forward.
That way of thinking is notgoing to be accessible to people

(56:15):
who want to commoditize thechurch and make it consumeristic
.
That is not a message peoplewant to consume.
It's just not.
And so this is why you see, allthe time there's this constant
tension.
Like you go back further inhistory, right, you have the
people, the desert fathers andmothers.
Why do they become desertfathers and mothers?
They did so because they feltthat the church becoming part of

(56:40):
the Roman Empire was wateringdown what the gospel was about,
and so they left to go live itout on their own.
Because they felt you know whatpeople aren't getting, how
transformative this is supposedto be, because now it has become
a state entity and people justgo and they don't think twice
about it.
And so, I guess, to the end ofthe question that you're talking

(57:00):
about, which is is it, dopeople yearn for a transform
transformation?
I think there are some peoplewho really do want that
transformation.
I think that, though, in oursociety today, I think it is, I
think I probably will get introuble for saying this, but I
do believe that there are a lotof people who, because they,

(57:21):
because of the way our societyhas primed them, we want things
easy.
I just use the word prime, andwhat is that?
That's related to Amazon.
We click a button, things aredelivered to us without us even
thinking twice about it.

Speaker 2 (57:33):
Right, everything in our society is about convenience
, and Christianity has falleninto that, and I think that
that's that is a tension that,unfortunately, with the gospel,
doesn't really work, in myopinion yeah, well, what I'm
hearing is the just the contrastbetween building an
organization and maybe theassumption that if there's a lot

(57:54):
of people, that means life, andand many are beginning to
discover that's not life, it's a.
It's a larger organization or abusiness that might have the
appearance of life, but there'san emptiness at the other end of
it and that's not life.
And people are beginning to,and leaders are beginning to

(58:15):
wake up to that, have their eyesopen to that and begin to move
in a different direction.
That may not be a literaldesert and I love your analogy,
by the way, of going back to thedesert, mothers and fathers but
that desert might look a littlebit different.
There's a move of God out, andyour expression of that right
now is you're moving into a newdirection might be a nod to that

(58:42):
ancient movement.
So I'm wondering is we, as westart thinking about wrapping up
this conversation, if you cantell us a little bit about what
that move looks like for you asyou head into a new direction
yourself?

Speaker 3 (58:59):
in terms of kind of what I'm trying to do.
You know, I I had a fundamentalrealization when I was working
at the church, and I don't knowif you're familiar with Robert
Putnam.
Do you know who he is?
He's a Harvard sociologist andhe talks about.
He wrote a.
He wrote a book called BowlingAlone.

(59:19):
I don't know if you've everheard of that.
It was a book he wrote in therein 2000 and it was about how
Americans he noticed that therewas this uptick.
Bowling is a tends to be a verycommunal sport and he noticed
that in the early 2000s, therewere a lot of Americans were
going and bowling by themselves,like they were getting a lane
and just being there alone, andhe felt that was a harbinger of

(59:42):
things to come, that it was acult, that we were looking at a
collapse of community.
And he wrote a book in 2020called the upswing, which was
talking about how it's true ofall societies, but in American
society we are oscillating backand forth.
We oscillate between beinghighly communalistic and highly
individualistic, and we arehitting a peak of hyper

(01:00:05):
individualism right now in inour world and that is
accompanying the collapse ofmany of these communal
structures that have been commonin our world, the church being
one of them.
Where, if you think about it,what was the church?
For so long, it was the nervouscenter of the community.
It's where people came.
You, you went there all thetime to, to not only worship,

(01:00:28):
but I mean, that was your, thatwas your social, your social
outlet, your volunteer outletand, yeah, was your networking.
People went there for that aswell.
And so, with the collapse ofthese, of the of our
institutional gathering places,young people are having a
horrible, horrible time.
You can look at in theincidences of mental illness,

(01:00:51):
anxiety, depression, addiction.
These are all skyrocketingright now and a lot of it is
because they do not have thesocial outlets that once existed
and were once provided by theseinstitutional organizations,
and they're walking away formany different reasons and
they're not coming for manydifferent reasons.
And so for me, I think thequestion becomes you know, I

(01:01:14):
said in my last sermon to mycongregation I feel God's
unconditional love the mostthrough my relationships.
Those, those relationships arewhere I feel God's love conveyed
most in my life, and so to me,I want to create a business that
allows younger people inparticular because that's who
I'm focused on to have thoserelationships and be able to

(01:01:37):
form those relationships in waysthat the institutional
organizations, frankly, are notallowing for any longer, and so,
ultimately, I'm creating a techbusiness that will create that
possibility for them, and I'm inthe process of fundraising.
Right now, I need about twopoint two million dollars.
They're about to get it off theground, but I've been in the

(01:01:59):
process of doing this for quitesome time, so so you know, I'm
moving forward with it and I'mexcited about it, and if I'm
let's just put it this way whatI'm trying to do, somebody's
gonna do it.
Like it's so obvious, somebodywill do it.
The question is, is it gonna beme or is it gonna be somebody
else?
I, I would love it to be me.
I don't care if it is me,though, because it needs to

(01:02:20):
happen.
There needs to be a better wayfor us, as a society, to find
the relationships that matter tous, because I can tell you from
my perch and where I sit, it'sbecoming harder and harder for
most people to have thoserelationships, and,
unfortunately, the demise of thechurch is contributing to that

(01:02:40):
well, alex, we want to say thankyou so much for your time.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
I love those words and there's there seems to be
wholeness, it is coming fromthose words and a lot of health
that comes from those words, andI think there's gonna be
pushback because it confronts meto do the same thing, but I
think that's where we begin tolive out the reality of who we
are on the inside, together withour faith, in a way that is

(01:03:10):
integral, which is which isfreeing and honest and hopefully
can shine light on the path ofother people to live in a in an
equally freeing and honest way,which I think is what this whole
conversation has been about, isbeing willing to self-examine,
being willing to look at what Ican continue to do, what I can

(01:03:31):
no longer do and what,ultimately, it looks like for me
to move forward in my calling,faithfully to who I am, to who
God is, to my best understandingto date, and in a way that
addresses the great need of theworld, even if that begins
moving me on a trajectoryoutside of the traditional
position, but more faithful towhat it is that God's called me

(01:03:54):
to do.
When I sit here and listen toyou talk, alex, I think about
the definition of a calling iswhen, when your great desire or
burden meets the world's greatneed.
And as we begin to, as we wrapup this conversation, I guess
that would be my hope thatothers would be inspired by your
story to begin to connect withwhat's really going on in the

(01:04:18):
inside in terms of your burden,because that's what the the word
call is.
If I understand correctly, isthe word burden in the original
text of scripture a burden onone's shoulders, and so when we
dial into what that burden isand that might be a journey and
differentiating what it isn't asmuch as what it is and begin to

(01:04:40):
allow that calling to expressitself outwardly, obedience
would be willing to move throughthe barriers that would keep
one from doing that, even ifthose barriers are represented
by our institutions.
So, alex, thank you so much foryour story, for your time, your
grace, for the heart and mindthat you bring into the space.
We really really appreciate youand look forward to seeing

(01:05:03):
what's ahead, for what's on yourheart as it meets the world's
great need thank you for havingme on.

Speaker 3 (01:05:10):
I appreciate you guys giving me the time thanks for
listening to the reconstructingpastors podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help
support the podcast, pleaseshare it with others, post about
it on social media or leave arating and review and if you're
interested in leaning into thisconversation further, we'd love
for you to be a part of aspecial online community
coaching space calledreconstructing pastors cohort.

Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
For details, visit our website at bridge and rhino
comm.
See you at the next episode.