April 16, 2024 • 32 mins
Join us as Dr. Angie Ward shares her journey from traditional church leadership to organic faith expressions. We explore Angie's pivotal moment during a leadership class that sparked a reevaluation of church leadership. Our candid conversation delves into the tensions of spiritual and vocational disruption, reflecting on the necessity of embracing uncertainty without rushing for resolution. As theological education faces a crossroads, we discuss the decline of traditional institutions and emphasize the need for adaptive thinking. Through Angie's insights and the stories of spiritual leaders, we invite you to join us in reconstructing faith, leadership, and communities in an era of ecclesiastical transformation.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
you're listening to the reconstructing pastors
podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I'm ruth lawrenson and I'm kirk romberg.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
We're recovering pastors talking about what it
looks like to make sense of ourcalling and community expression
on the other side ofdeconstruction our hope is to
create a safe space to explorethe bigger picture of the church
, both the present state of theAmerican evangelical church and
what the future may hold forthose who are searching for a
(00:34):
better way.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
We're really glad you're here.
Let's get started Today, ruth.
I'm super excited for ourguests that we're having today
Angie Ward.
Dr Angie Ward is a leadershipauthor and teacher with nearly
30 years experience in church,parachurch and Christian higher
education ministry, and she's anaward-winning regular
(00:58):
contributor of one of myfavorite publications,
Christianity Today, particularlyin the leadership publication
section, and she is also ahighly regarded teacher and
collaborative leader.
She holds a PhD in ministryleadership from the Southern
Baptist Theological Seminary.
She serves as director ofdoctor of ministry at Denver
(01:18):
Seminary and that's actuallywhere I got a chance to start
getting to know Angie.
She was introduced to me by amutual friend, roland Smith, who
is, among many other things,the national director for Forge
America, of which Angie alsosits on the board.
I'm not seeing that in your bio, angie, but that's.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I know I better put that in.
I want to tell Roland.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
So welcome, Angie.
Thank you so much for takingthis time to be with us today.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Yeah, so glad to be here with y'all.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, thanks so much, angie, for coming, and we feel
especially honored because we'rein Colorado, so you're a Denver
person and we love what you'redoing in Denver Seminary.
We were there a couple of weeksago and just enjoy that space
with you and we are thrilled tohave you and your thoughts and
(02:11):
your experience on this podcast,because I think what our hope
is is that, as we talk aboutsome of these real things, it
gives people this space to justprocess a little bit of what is
happening in some of the areasof Big C Church and the future
for Big C Church.
So thank you again for joiningus today.
(02:33):
Now, one of the things we wantto kick off with just a bit
about you really, becauseobviously Kirk just lists off a
bunch of stuff, all of thesethings that you do and you you
know you've achieved, but alsoyou have your own faith journey
in the middle of all of this and, um, we know just from talking
(02:54):
with you that you've actuallyhad a bit of a journey, a
movement from, you know, thistraditional uh church to more
organic expressions of church,and we'd just love to find out a
little bit about that before wekind of dive into some of the
leadership issues and thoughtsthat you've got for the future.
So would you share a little bit,introduce yourself and share
(03:15):
particularly about that journeyof faith for you.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Yeah, sure.
So yeah, now I'm at DenverSeminary, a group in the Midwest
, group in the church, and soI've just been in the church all
my life.
Had a great youth pastor andhis wife, as part of their
influence, felt a call early onin college to youth ministry.
(03:42):
So I've been just following acall to vocational ministry all
my life.
So it took me in camp ministry,took me to Denver Seminary as a
student.
My husband and I met andmarried while we were students
here and then I was doing youthministry and he was doing, and
then youth ministry, leadershipdevelopment and then broader
leadership development, got mydoctorate in teaching while he
(04:02):
was a pastor.
So we were around the countryfor 25 years before coming back
to Denver Seminary just aboutfour years ago, right at the
start of the pandemic.
But so, like you said, I've gota PhD in ministry leadership
from the Southern BaptistTheological Seminary.
You know I have degrees fromTrinity from Denver Seminary.
I've been doing this ministrybut about seven or eight years
(04:24):
ago now I was teaching aministry leadership class and I
was writing for a leadershipjournal.
So I'm all about the leadershipstuff.
And so I was teaching a class,not here at Denver Seminary at
another school, a ministryleadership class, and I was
teaching leadership the way Ihad experienced it and been
taught it, which was really muchthe kind of the rise of
(04:46):
leadership, kind of that wholeindustry and franchise.
So Bill Hybels, tom Peters, theGlobal Leadership Summit, all
that kind of stuff.
You know, everything rises andfalls on leadership, john
Maxwell, and church and ministrythe way I had experienced it
and taught it, which was aparticular stream of
evangelicalism and really it's astream of, I think, protestant
(05:10):
Christianity that we've had forcenturies, you know, if not
millennia.
So I'm in this classroom andI've got this kind of group of
students in kind of a U aroundme and I'm talking, and in the
middle of talking with them Ihad this stop cold, like my
heart just kind of dropped.
And as I realized I'm teachingto a particular model here of
(05:34):
church and to ministry and toleadership, and I just realized
suddenly it was a model, not theway, and I was like and I don't
know how we got to this model,it's a very leadership heavy
thing and I don't know how wegot to this and I don't know if
I even buy this model.
And then I was like, whoa, thathas significant implications
(05:55):
for, like, my career, becausethat's what I was going to be
doing and I have a degree.
I have a Christian collegedegree.
I have a Denver Seminaryministry leadership degree.
I have a Christian collegedegree.
I have a Denver Seminaryministry leadership degree.
I have a PhD from the SouthernBaptist Theological Center.
I mean, I've I've read thisstuff, I've written this stuff
and I know more about leadershipthan I do about the church and
(06:16):
I was like and I think that's aproblem certainly for me and I
don't think I'm the only onewith this problem, I think I
think this is hurting us inevangelicalism and Western
evangelicalism.
And so that was kind of thisvery disequilibrating moment
where I was like whoa, andstarted this journey of on my
own going what is the churchreally and what is it supposed
(06:39):
to be and do?
So I'd taken some systematicI'm sure I had a little section
on ecclesiology and systematictheology in seminary, but that
was it.
All the rest was aboutleadership and we kind of I
assumed these models andparadigms and so that has led me
on this journey that continuesto this day of just really going
what was God's you know designand intent for the church.
(07:01):
How have we gotten off track?
How far have we gotten offtrack?
So I've got that and at thesame time I'm a pastor's wife,
I'm doing ministry and kind oftraditional church structures
contemporary traditional, youknow what I mean Like just kind
of assume structures for thatand start having more and more
questions and also realizingparts of my soul weren't being
(07:22):
fed by what I call the kind ofevangelical victorious and that
model, you know.
And and as an introvert and sortof realizing, I have a
contemplative side and goinglike I'm just I'm at a different
place now and I don't knowwhere I don't feel home anymore
and even the churches that myhusband and I were pastoring,
you know, and so again felt thisdiscomfort and what to do with
(07:42):
that and so fast forward alittle bit.
So I'm wrestling with that.
We come to Denver and it's thefirst time in all our married
life, after 25 years, where weget to or have to choose a
church instead of one beingprovided by the job, because we
moved from my position at DenverSeminary and so but everything
was closed because of COVID andso I'm missing community, trying
(08:05):
to figure out, wrestle all thisstuff.
We kind of bounced around a bit.
My husband served as an interimpastor.
Ultimately last fall I felt likeI've been intrigued by more
organic stuff microchurches,that type of stuff, even as I'm
teaching leadership and ministryand trying to question this
stuff in my classroom.
So my original aha about eightyears ago led me to develop a
(08:29):
class that I taught I teach hereat Denver Seminary in our Dean
Doctor of Ministry programbefore I even started working
here called ReclaimingEcclesiology, and it was really
me working out this stuff withmy students and going like, are
you noticing the same thing?
So as part of all that journey,this um this in this new year
my husband and I have startedwe're calling it a table
community um on Sunday nightswhere it's just a group of us
(08:53):
gather on the table.
We have, you know, I would saywe're informally liturgical in
that we have movements of likeum gathering and confession and
the word and the table um, youknow, the Eucharist and
ascending kind of thing, butit's just everybody's
participating.
We have, about right now, fourfamilies with kids of various
ages.
So we're very experimental,which for me as a leadership
(09:16):
person kind of taught thatleaders have the answer and
everything rises and falls onleadership.
It's organic and that soundsbeautiful, but it feels messy,
it's very soupy and so that'swhere I'm at.
So what I'm doing at DenverSeminary before we hit record,
we were talking about just thedichotomy of here I'm teaching
(09:36):
ministry leadership and I'mdoing this organic thing.
I am finding that my studentsare all asking the same
questions or had never beenchallenged to think about it
before and creating that spacelike you're doing here.
We just I just got doneteaching it again.
In January we had a week longintensive and that course has
become.
This is the third time I'vedone it and it's become
literally life-changing ortrajectory changing for many of
(09:59):
them and myself included.
And here at Denver Seminary atleast, there's a lot of faculty
and staff that are alsodeconstructing church.
I would not say faith at all.
I mean I was talking withsomebody Sunday night and they
said you know my belief in thecross, all that is more
foundational than ever and more.
But all this extraneous stuffI'm just jettisoning a whole
(10:21):
bunch of stuff right now, sothat I mean so I feel like I'm
sitting in a place.
Thankfully I'm in a space atDenver.
Summer we can have thoseconversations very freely and
openly.
So that's a long answer to yourquestion.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Oh, it's brilliant, angie, and I loved hearing that
story.
I'm curious.
I just when you mentioned thatmoment, you know you were in the
room and then you're suddenlykind of questioning this whole
thing yeah, it's like anout-of-body experience yeah, I'm
sure it was, because it's likeand the reason I bring this up
because I think a lot of leadersright now, a lot of pastors,
(10:57):
ministry leaders that have beenin this for a long time, like
maybe you know 15, 20 years andyou know, there you are, you've
got so much investment in thisthing and it can be.
I'm curious around the feelingsthat come with that of like, oh
my gosh, what do I do with that?
What do I do with thesequestions, when all of you know
(11:19):
my, I've invested career-wise,I've invested in PhDs and
masters, and this is what I'vedone.
And then there's this kind ofpivot to questioning and
journeying, which I think can bereally scary for a leader to
embrace.
So I would love to hear if youcould speak to anyone who finds
(11:42):
themselves in that space rightnow, like because obviously
you're, you're a, you knowyou're not there anymore.
You've kind of journeyedfurther from that.
That moment sat in that roomthinking, hang on a minute.
I didn't even really believe inthis model.
But you've kind of journeyed abit further down the road and
now you're just um, experiencingthis really life-giving space
(12:02):
in Denver Salmonary where youare able to ask those questions,
and it's not just, was that awaste of time?
But now it's like oh, hang on aminute, we get to reimagine
something here.
Could you speak to leaders thatfind themselves in that moment
of?
out-of-body experience like whathave I done?
You know, could you?
I would just I'm curious whatencouragement you could give
(12:22):
them yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Well, first you're, first you're not alone.
Not at all, not by any stretch.
I mean, there are and I hope Ihope your, you know listeners,
you know those of you who arelistening are are finding that
if you just dare to, the morepeople I said to, I don't know,
they went me too.
You know, let's, let's talktogether and just just.
And so you know, maybe yousaying, hey, are you seeing this
(12:46):
?
You know kind of thing willgive people freedom to kind of
question and to speak.
That it's very disconcerting.
It really is just a shift, likeI feel like the ground is
shifting underneath you, and soso it's also normal to feel that
disequilibrium, and I felt itfor a very, very, very long time
(13:06):
.
Sometimes I'd be like, well,maybe because I was like I was
letting go, well, I don't thinkit's this, but then what is it?
And so then I just felt that Iwas in this wilderness and I
still am kind of there Like,well, there's good to this and
there's good to this and there'sbad to this and bad to this.
And how do you pick apart allthe threads of that?
I know some folks who just kindof throw out the whole thing
and just go, I'm done, you know.
(13:34):
And others who frankly and withgood reason say you know, I've
got five more years and I'minvested in my pension and I
don't know that I can afford tomake a leap right now, you know,
or and so um, but I'm going tokeep asking questions, you know,
kind of things.
So, um, people are just verydifferent spaces.
So it's okay to be at whateverplace you're at and sit with the
tension.
It's um.
(13:55):
I think it's a little funny thatI'm quoting, quoting Andy
Stanley, who's about, as youknow, traditional big church
leader, as you can, but I thinkhe's into us a lot of things
about leadership really well,and he talks about some things
we view as problems to be solvedand instead they're tensions to
be managed.
And so I think part of thatnext stage, as far as like the
critical journey, is just beingable to sit with tensions and
(14:17):
not having to resolve it all.
And I don't know if you'vetalked ever on this podcast or
if you all read the book theCritical Journey by Janet
Hagbert, but for those who arein that season of the wall where
things what worked before isn'tworking now or doesn't feel
like it's working, either goingback a step or going forward
feels more stable, just becausethis feels so unstable.
(14:39):
And so some go back to what'sfamiliar and comfortable and and
this is what I know I need abox or something to stand on and
some just kind of push throughand others just abandon the
whole thing altogether.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Yeah, I think that's.
I'm super glad that you broughtthat perspective into this
conversation, because obviouslywhat we're talking about is not
just a shift from one model to adifferent model.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
That at some point could be an outcome and
different versions of you know.
But it's not about models.
It is about it's almost as ifthe pandemic pushed like a
massive swath of people againstthe wall and we're grappling
with that.
So it's more than just anexternal journey, but there's
something internal that'shappening and that internal
(15:24):
journey is causing just anupheaval of questions to,
thankfully, allow us tore-examine what it is that we're
doing and to, as you say, livewith the tension.
And it sounds like, from whatyou're saying, you're in an
environment at Denver Seminarywhere that's okay.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Which is amazing, because that's, to me, is the
heartbeat of academia.
It's not just answers, it'sthinking, it's an environment
that encourages discovery, notjust solutions.
And I say that at least at thismoment, and I'm going to move
(16:07):
past it.
But we had a couple of kids whowere in a similar institution
in California and it was thekind of institution where a
certain narrative had to besubscribed to by the staff and
the professors and if thatnarrative wasn't subscribed to
and the staff and the professors, and if that narrative wasn't
subscribed to and supported,that they were out.
(16:28):
And I found that to be massivelydiscouraging in an environment
where my kids were encouraged.
They're young adults, they'rein their 20s.
They want to be encouraged andthey're encouraged by people
ahead of them in the journey whoare actually grappling and
don't want to just spoon-feedthem a narrative, and they're
encouraged by people ahead ofthem in the journey who are
actually grappling, yeah, anddon't want to just spoon feed
(16:49):
them a narrative.
So I feel really encouraged andattracted to that environment
that you get to be a part of.
But also, as a segue to ournext question, which is what is
the conversation and maybe it'sa Denver seminary, maybe, maybe
it's a broader conversation thatyou're picking up within
academic circles Is there aconversation about not just a
(17:12):
shift of models but really ashift in eras for the local
church?
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
And what is that conversation?
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Yeah, well, I know we are having it.
I'm having it at least withsome, some with some colleagues
here and with my students in thedoctor of ministry.
I get to create kind of thismicrocosm.
You know my own littlesubculture here, which is great.
You know, in Denver Seminaryand other seminaries we're we're
grappling with not just thedecline of the church as far as
(17:43):
the previous institutionalchurch and trust in leaders and
trust in institutions, so thedecline of that, the decline of
evangelicalism, and also thedecline of theological education
of seminaries.
So, and so we're kind of tryingto do all those things at once
(18:07):
and I think different people areresponding different ways.
Some of them are trying to justfind a different package, a
different container.
I think what you said beforepeople have to ask the right
questions.
We have to ask the rightquestions, not just look for
different answers.
And so I think someinstitutions are going how do we
(18:28):
return or get back?
And I think others are tryingto.
You know, ask these questions,open up different things, but in
the middle of of the thingsjust falling apart under your
feet.
So, um, yeah, I think peopleare asking, asking questions or
seeing the shifts, and they'reresponding in different ways.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Yeah, yeah.
So what I hear you saying issome are buckling down harder.
How can we take what it is thatwe're doing and make sure that,
uh, we are, um, justreinforcing it where, where it's
plugging the holes in theTitanic and we're not sinking?
We are, uh, and others aresaying, well, wait a minute.
(19:11):
No, we are.
Uh, there's something that ishappening and it's time for
adaptation.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
And that's interesting.
And so what is that like thenat Denver seminary, in specific,
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
And so what is that like then at Denver Seminary in
specific, ask me, in five years?
No, I don't know.
I mean well, I mean I thinkwe're.
What is it like in DenverSeminary?
There's several colleagues andwe're reading a book right now
called the End of TheologicalEducation, by a guy who's
talking about, yeah, we're at anend of, I think, a major era.
(19:45):
And so Phyllis Tickle, in herbook the Great Emergence, quotes
an Anglican bishop who talkedabout every 500 years, the
church seems to have a bigrummage sale, and you know, the
last one was the Reformation.
Well, you count forward 500years, and here we are.
And so I think people arerealizing, and in the book Ted
(20:07):
Smith, the author he talks about, he doesn't talk about decline,
he talks about unraveling, andso he talks about just all the
structures and the institutionsand kind of this ecosystem,
church, parachurch, seminary,everything that has grown up and
so around all that.
And so I think we don't knowwhat's next.
(20:30):
You know, we're we, we don'tsee this clear thing.
And so it's a friend of mineone time said instead of like
he's leading from a submarine,so instead of leading from the
deck of a battleship, he has tolead by sonar.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yeah, that's a great analogy.
Yeah, and I love that becausesonar has to do with what it is
that we hear, not necessarilywhat it is that we see.
I mean, you might see it on asonar monitor, but the sound is
picked up.
And that seems to resonate withwhat I'm hearing from other
people, in that this is a seasonnot so much for figuring out as
much as it is a season forslowing down, taking stock,
(21:16):
decompression, deprogramming andnot figuring out what's next,
as much as looking back to theone that we're seeking and to
re-engage in the voice of theone who wants to lead his people
, not really and make thedestination.
Where are we going?
(21:36):
Almost an afterthought is whoit is that we're seeking and in
that space, embracing the limliminal, embracing the
in-between, and what is he doingin us which, when you look at
the ecclesiological landscape,it looks like a lot needs to be
done in us yeah, I think I agreewith kirk.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
There seems to be this kind of caution around, or
even inability to know, like Idon't know whether it's a
caution or an inability to seewhat can be next, and I think
that that's actually a gift insome ways.
As much as we want to kind ofchart the course and figure it
out, I think that there is,there's a gift, I think, the
(22:22):
Holy Spirit's given us at themoment of space of pause, of
reflection.
In fact, our first episode ofthis podcast was, I think it was
called Pausing for Reflection,space to See the Mountains.
So how can we even see if wedon't pause, especially if
there's this era shifting?
We even see if we don't pause,especially if there's this era
(22:46):
shifting, if we are living insuch these times of an era
shifting, um time for the church.
I think we need the time to toreflect, to think through these
issues, and I think that takestime, um, and I know for me as a
visionary, that's sofrustrating.
I just want to get to the nextthing, you know, but I think I
can't.
I can only just imagine whatthat is for the, for academia
(23:08):
and and training future leaders,and how do you do that like?
I mean, there is tension therein that space.
So it leads me to anotherquestion and she um, if I'd love
your input on this, as we, youknow, as we close out this
episode really, but we just wantto.
I mean, obviously it doesn'ttake much to see what's
(23:31):
happening in the, you know,there's this crisis of
leadership that we're seeing.
As, as a leadership umprofessional, someone who's
studied leadership so much, itmust be very disheartening to
see that we're seeing churchleaders, especially in the
mainstream evangelical church.
We've got abuses, scandals, Imean just even the recent IHOP
(23:56):
International House of Prayer inKansas City, and that's just
one.
I mean, it's just like it feelslike there's dominoes on this,
like everything.
A lot of leaders are falling,and it's not just the leaders,
it's like I think the layersthat that are involved in those
spaces then are exposed, and Ithink it exposes and it leads
(24:20):
people to those questions.
But I would love to hear yourthoughts, your take on, you know
, as a leadership educationprofessional, like, what is your
take on that and what is yourresponse?
And how?
What does that make you what?
I guess?
What does that make you want towant to do for the next
generation of leaders.
(24:41):
Is there any response, not justlike, ah, this is awful,
because I think we're all withit, like that is a response that
we're all having, but is thereany way forward?
Is there any way to solve someof these problems?
That was a lot.
There were a lot of questions.
I was going to say, yeah, canyou clarify that.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Yeah, can you clarify , like crystallize into a
question more of a?
Speaker 1 (25:04):
OK, just just your thoughts, your, your, your take
on what's happening in the Big Cchurch, church scandals, any,
any thoughts off the bat?
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Well, I think we are.
I think the pandemic hasexposed and accelerated kind of
some shifts that were happeningalready, this kind of rummage
sale kind of thing.
I'm encouraged that people arehaving these conversations.
I mean, we don't know what'sgoing to come from them yet, but
I think what I want to do isjust continue to create the
(25:39):
spaces to have theseconversations, like you all are
doing here, um, and let peopleknow they're not alone and we
don't have to have it allfigured out right away, um.
So I actually have a lot ofhope because I think some needed
questions are finally beingasked yes, so would you say.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
It's like almost, because the light is being.
You know, we're seeing lightbeing shined on some darker
issues, but we're actuallyseeing it, so that's very
hopeful.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
I think I am.
I mean, yeah, I don't feeldiscouraged at all.
I think these are necessaryquestions.
I think they're hard questions,but I think they're necessary
questions.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah, what do you think that?
I mean?
Maybe it's not a new thing asfar as leadership abuses and
scandals and just the whole kindof top-down CEO model.
Maybe it's always beenhappening and now we're just
looking at it, or maybe it'sbecause high-profile issues are
drawing attention to it.
But, as a leadership,professional teaching, training
(26:43):
why do you think these arehappening to begin with?
What's, what's your opinion?
Speaker 3 (26:51):
Well, I think the world has changed, the culture
is changing.
I think, boy, that's a bigquestion.
Might be a whole nother podcast.
Yeah, because I think we'vegotten overgrown in our old
systems and institutions andneeded to be no-transcript.
(27:15):
What we're doing is getting theresults we're getting, and so
people are starting to questionmaybe we're doing the wrong
thing.
And as far as kind of someassumptions about church and
institutions and how people growand all that, I think at least
the Western church boughtwholesale into kind of this
leadership paradigm.
Not that leadership is notimportant, but I think we
(27:38):
uncritically bought into some,uh, worldly models of, and
assumptions about growth and andall that kind of thing, and I
think we've neglected formationout of that.
We're seeing some results ofthat.
So I mean, I think, I think thechurch is at a wall.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
You know, to use the hangberg thing, yeah, yeah so
the church is on its owncritical journey yeah, I think
so yeah, I think one of thethings that I think, from just
talking with people on, you knowthat have been responding to
some of these, uh, abuses,scandals, whatever they are, I
(28:17):
think that there's, you know, onone level, I think there there
is hope, but there's also thisvast disillusionment from people
, especially people who are haveinvested.
So it's the same sort of thingthat we talked about earlier.
This investment.
Not maybe they haven't beenleaders, but they've invested
their lives into something forlike 15 years.
(28:39):
And then suddenly, when it's so,when it feels like so black and
white in terms of hang on aminute, was that even real?
Like I think that that that's athere's a shock factor for a
lot of people.
Um, so, in terms of as leaders,I think it's very hopeful
because we're thinking, oh,finally we're getting to the
roots of some of this stuff thatisn't, it was never supposed to
(29:01):
be there in the beginning, sonow we can actually figure out
what's next.
But I think, pastorally,there's a concern for people's
faith journey, because it is, ithas there's been a level of
trauma and, I guess, damage forpeople who are, you know,
(29:22):
suddenly a leader falls and theycan question their whole faith.
What would you, would you haveany encouragement for people
Maybe they're not in leadership,but people who find themselves
in that position right now?
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Well, just that again .
I mean, you're not alone.
God's there in it with you tobe open with him with everything
you're feeling.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Well, I guess your story, just even your own story
because you're, you're speakinginto leadership, but then you're
, you're in, you're in your ownfaith journey too, is
encouraging to know thatactually, as you wrestle, you're
in the wilderness but there'salso signs of life and hope and
table communities also um signsof life and hope and table
(30:08):
communities and, yeah, god's,god's in it, god sees, um, it's.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
It's not a short, I mean it's.
It's not easy and it's notinstant, it's a.
It's a god wants us more thanwhat we can do or the answers we
can have for him.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Well, angie, we've loved having you with us.
But before we wrap up, we wantto hear about what you're up to.
You've got some thick, you'vegot some irons in the fire, so
to speak, so would you share alittle bit about that?
And as we wrap up, yeah, so I'mactually.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
I mean, this conversation about what is the
church and what I've been doingin my classroom has turned it
into I'm working on a book forInterVarsity Press I'm putting
the finishing touches on, calledthe Whole Church for the Whole
World, church and Parachurch forthe 21st Century, and so you
know, I'm looking at what, thisquestion what is the church and
how did we get here?
I'm looking at this questionwhat is the church and how did
(30:58):
we get here?
And so just kind of askingthose questions, about like
trying to ask the rightquestions, not just looking for
the right answers.
I think we have to ask theright questions first.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
That's real good and we look forward to hearing that
come out.
And do you have any idea of thetimeline and when we could be
looking for that?
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Yeah, it's coming out next March or April.
Yeah, from University Press andyou probably don't have a title
yet because editors have.
I think they're a part ofchoosing that with you.
Well, the working title is theWhole Church for the Whole World
Church and Parachurch for the21st Century.
Whether that'll land on that Idon't know.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
All right, we'll be looking for that.
Angie, it, as always, has beenan absolute delight to talk with
you and to hear your thoughts,because because listening to you
articulate your thoughts aboutchurch, about leadership, about
what God is doing in the biggerpicture is so refreshing.
Development of integrity for meis that you're living it out,
(32:02):
you're tooling it out in yourown personal life.
So there's integration there,which I appreciate, not only the
perspective that that brings tothe conversation and to your
education, but just also thesense that this is a holistic
thing for you, that this matters, and so that gives me
encouragement, that gives mehope, and I hope that does so
for our listeners as well.
So thanks, angie.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
OK, yeah, thanks, glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Thanks for listening to the Reconstructing Passes
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode andyou'd like to help support the
podcast, please share it withothers, post about it on social
media or leave a rating andreview.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Or leave a rating and review and if you're interested
in leaning into thisconversation further, we'd love
for you to be a part of aspecial online community
coaching space calledReconstructing Pastors Cohort.
For details, visit our websiteat bridgeandrhinocom.
See you at the next episode.
you're listening to the reconstructing pastors
podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I'm ruth lawrenson and I'm kirk romberg.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
We're recovering pastors talking about what it
looks like to make sense of ourcalling and community expression
on the other side ofdeconstruction our hope is to
create a safe space to explorethe bigger picture of the church
, both the present state of theAmerican evangelical church and
what the future may hold forthose who are searching for a
(00:34):
better way.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
We're really glad you're here.
Let's get started Today, ruth.
I'm super excited for ourguests that we're having today
Angie Ward.
Dr Angie Ward is a leadershipauthor and teacher with nearly
30 years experience in church,parachurch and Christian higher
education ministry, and she's anaward-winning regular
(00:58):
contributor of one of myfavorite publications,
Christianity Today, particularlyin the leadership publication
section, and she is also ahighly regarded teacher and
collaborative leader.
She holds a PhD in ministryleadership from the Southern
Baptist Theological Seminary.
She serves as director ofdoctor of ministry at Denver
(01:18):
Seminary and that's actuallywhere I got a chance to start
getting to know Angie.
She was introduced to me by amutual friend, roland Smith, who
is, among many other things,the national director for Forge
America, of which Angie alsosits on the board.
I'm not seeing that in your bio, angie, but that's.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I know I better put that in.
I want to tell Roland.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
So welcome, Angie.
Thank you so much for takingthis time to be with us today.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Yeah, so glad to be here with y'all.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, thanks so much, angie, for coming, and we feel
especially honored because we'rein Colorado, so you're a Denver
person and we love what you'redoing in Denver Seminary.
We were there a couple of weeksago and just enjoy that space
with you and we are thrilled tohave you and your thoughts and
(02:11):
your experience on this podcast,because I think what our hope
is is that, as we talk aboutsome of these real things, it
gives people this space to justprocess a little bit of what is
happening in some of the areasof Big C Church and the future
for Big C Church.
So thank you again for joiningus today.
(02:33):
Now, one of the things we wantto kick off with just a bit
about you really, becauseobviously Kirk just lists off a
bunch of stuff, all of thesethings that you do and you you
know you've achieved, but alsoyou have your own faith journey
in the middle of all of this and, um, we know just from talking
(02:54):
with you that you've actuallyhad a bit of a journey, a
movement from, you know, thistraditional uh church to more
organic expressions of church,and we'd just love to find out a
little bit about that before wekind of dive into some of the
leadership issues and thoughtsthat you've got for the future.
So would you share a little bit,introduce yourself and share
(03:15):
particularly about that journeyof faith for you.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Yeah, sure.
So yeah, now I'm at DenverSeminary, a group in the Midwest
, group in the church, and soI've just been in the church all
my life.
Had a great youth pastor andhis wife, as part of their
influence, felt a call early onin college to youth ministry.
(03:42):
So I've been just following acall to vocational ministry all
my life.
So it took me in camp ministry,took me to Denver Seminary as a
student.
My husband and I met andmarried while we were students
here and then I was doing youthministry and he was doing, and
then youth ministry, leadershipdevelopment and then broader
leadership development, got mydoctorate in teaching while he
(04:02):
was a pastor.
So we were around the countryfor 25 years before coming back
to Denver Seminary just aboutfour years ago, right at the
start of the pandemic.
But so, like you said, I've gota PhD in ministry leadership
from the Southern BaptistTheological Seminary.
You know I have degrees fromTrinity from Denver Seminary.
I've been doing this ministrybut about seven or eight years
(04:24):
ago now I was teaching aministry leadership class and I
was writing for a leadershipjournal.
So I'm all about the leadershipstuff.
And so I was teaching a class,not here at Denver Seminary at
another school, a ministryleadership class, and I was
teaching leadership the way Ihad experienced it and been
taught it, which was really muchthe kind of the rise of
(04:46):
leadership, kind of that wholeindustry and franchise.
So Bill Hybels, tom Peters, theGlobal Leadership Summit, all
that kind of stuff.
You know, everything rises andfalls on leadership, john
Maxwell, and church and ministrythe way I had experienced it
and taught it, which was aparticular stream of
evangelicalism and really it's astream of, I think, protestant
(05:10):
Christianity that we've had forcenturies, you know, if not
millennia.
So I'm in this classroom andI've got this kind of group of
students in kind of a U aroundme and I'm talking, and in the
middle of talking with them Ihad this stop cold, like my
heart just kind of dropped.
And as I realized I'm teachingto a particular model here of
(05:34):
church and to ministry and toleadership, and I just realized
suddenly it was a model, not theway, and I was like and I don't
know how we got to this model,it's a very leadership heavy
thing and I don't know how wegot to this and I don't know if
I even buy this model.
And then I was like, whoa, thathas significant implications
(05:55):
for, like, my career, becausethat's what I was going to be
doing and I have a degree.
I have a Christian collegedegree.
I have a Denver Seminaryministry leadership degree.
I have a Christian collegedegree.
I have a Denver Seminaryministry leadership degree.
I have a PhD from the SouthernBaptist Theological Center.
I mean, I've I've read thisstuff, I've written this stuff
and I know more about leadershipthan I do about the church and
(06:16):
I was like and I think that's aproblem certainly for me and I
don't think I'm the only onewith this problem, I think I
think this is hurting us inevangelicalism and Western
evangelicalism.
And so that was kind of thisvery disequilibrating moment
where I was like whoa, andstarted this journey of on my
own going what is the churchreally and what is it supposed
(06:39):
to be and do?
So I'd taken some systematicI'm sure I had a little section
on ecclesiology and systematictheology in seminary, but that
was it.
All the rest was aboutleadership and we kind of I
assumed these models andparadigms and so that has led me
on this journey that continuesto this day of just really going
what was God's you know designand intent for the church.
(07:01):
How have we gotten off track?
How far have we gotten offtrack?
So I've got that and at thesame time I'm a pastor's wife,
I'm doing ministry and kind oftraditional church structures
contemporary traditional, youknow what I mean Like just kind
of assume structures for thatand start having more and more
questions and also realizingparts of my soul weren't being
(07:22):
fed by what I call the kind ofevangelical victorious and that
model, you know.
And and as an introvert and sortof realizing, I have a
contemplative side and goinglike I'm just I'm at a different
place now and I don't knowwhere I don't feel home anymore
and even the churches that myhusband and I were pastoring,
you know, and so again felt thisdiscomfort and what to do with
(07:42):
that and so fast forward alittle bit.
So I'm wrestling with that.
We come to Denver and it's thefirst time in all our married
life, after 25 years, where weget to or have to choose a
church instead of one beingprovided by the job, because we
moved from my position at DenverSeminary and so but everything
was closed because of COVID andso I'm missing community, trying
(08:05):
to figure out, wrestle all thisstuff.
We kind of bounced around a bit.
My husband served as an interimpastor.
Ultimately last fall I felt likeI've been intrigued by more
organic stuff microchurches,that type of stuff, even as I'm
teaching leadership and ministryand trying to question this
stuff in my classroom.
So my original aha about eightyears ago led me to develop a
(08:29):
class that I taught I teach hereat Denver Seminary in our Dean
Doctor of Ministry programbefore I even started working
here called ReclaimingEcclesiology, and it was really
me working out this stuff withmy students and going like, are
you noticing the same thing?
So as part of all that journey,this um this in this new year
my husband and I have startedwe're calling it a table
community um on Sunday nightswhere it's just a group of us
(08:53):
gather on the table.
We have, you know, I would saywe're informally liturgical in
that we have movements of likeum gathering and confession and
the word and the table um, youknow, the Eucharist and
ascending kind of thing, butit's just everybody's
participating.
We have, about right now, fourfamilies with kids of various
ages.
So we're very experimental,which for me as a leadership
(09:16):
person kind of taught thatleaders have the answer and
everything rises and falls onleadership.
It's organic and that soundsbeautiful, but it feels messy,
it's very soupy and so that'swhere I'm at.
So what I'm doing at DenverSeminary before we hit record,
we were talking about just thedichotomy of here I'm teaching
(09:36):
ministry leadership and I'mdoing this organic thing.
I am finding that my studentsare all asking the same
questions or had never beenchallenged to think about it
before and creating that spacelike you're doing here.
We just I just got doneteaching it again.
In January we had a week longintensive and that course has
become.
This is the third time I'vedone it and it's become
literally life-changing ortrajectory changing for many of
(09:59):
them and myself included.
And here at Denver Seminary atleast, there's a lot of faculty
and staff that are alsodeconstructing church.
I would not say faith at all.
I mean I was talking withsomebody Sunday night and they
said you know my belief in thecross, all that is more
foundational than ever and more.
But all this extraneous stuffI'm just jettisoning a whole
(10:21):
bunch of stuff right now, sothat I mean so I feel like I'm
sitting in a place.
Thankfully I'm in a space atDenver.
Summer we can have thoseconversations very freely and
openly.
So that's a long answer to yourquestion.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Oh, it's brilliant, angie, and I loved hearing that
story.
I'm curious.
I just when you mentioned thatmoment, you know you were in the
room and then you're suddenlykind of questioning this whole
thing yeah, it's like anout-of-body experience yeah, I'm
sure it was, because it's likeand the reason I bring this up
because I think a lot of leadersright now, a lot of pastors,
(10:57):
ministry leaders that have beenin this for a long time, like
maybe you know 15, 20 years andyou know, there you are, you've
got so much investment in thisthing and it can be.
I'm curious around the feelingsthat come with that of like, oh
my gosh, what do I do with that?
What do I do with thesequestions, when all of you know
(11:19):
my, I've invested career-wise,I've invested in PhDs and
masters, and this is what I'vedone.
And then there's this kind ofpivot to questioning and
journeying, which I think can bereally scary for a leader to
embrace.
So I would love to hear if youcould speak to anyone who finds
(11:42):
themselves in that space rightnow, like because obviously
you're, you're a, you knowyou're not there anymore.
You've kind of journeyedfurther from that.
That moment sat in that roomthinking, hang on a minute.
I didn't even really believe inthis model.
But you've kind of journeyed abit further down the road and
now you're just um, experiencingthis really life-giving space
(12:02):
in Denver Salmonary where youare able to ask those questions,
and it's not just, was that awaste of time?
But now it's like oh, hang on aminute, we get to reimagine
something here.
Could you speak to leaders thatfind themselves in that moment
of?
out-of-body experience like whathave I done?
You know, could you?
I would just I'm curious whatencouragement you could give
(12:22):
them yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Well, first you're, first you're not alone.
Not at all, not by any stretch.
I mean, there are and I hope Ihope your, you know listeners,
you know those of you who arelistening are are finding that
if you just dare to, the morepeople I said to, I don't know,
they went me too.
You know, let's, let's talktogether and just just.
And so you know, maybe yousaying, hey, are you seeing this
(12:46):
?
You know kind of thing willgive people freedom to kind of
question and to speak.
That it's very disconcerting.
It really is just a shift, likeI feel like the ground is
shifting underneath you, and soso it's also normal to feel that
disequilibrium, and I felt itfor a very, very, very long time
(13:06):
.
Sometimes I'd be like, well,maybe because I was like I was
letting go, well, I don't thinkit's this, but then what is it?
And so then I just felt that Iwas in this wilderness and I
still am kind of there Like,well, there's good to this and
there's good to this and there'sbad to this and bad to this.
And how do you pick apart allthe threads of that?
I know some folks who just kindof throw out the whole thing
and just go, I'm done, you know.
(13:34):
And others who frankly and withgood reason say you know, I've
got five more years and I'minvested in my pension and I
don't know that I can afford tomake a leap right now, you know,
or and so um, but I'm going tokeep asking questions, you know,
kind of things.
So, um, people are just verydifferent spaces.
So it's okay to be at whateverplace you're at and sit with the
tension.
It's um.
(13:55):
I think it's a little funny thatI'm quoting, quoting Andy
Stanley, who's about, as youknow, traditional big church
leader, as you can, but I thinkhe's into us a lot of things
about leadership really well,and he talks about some things
we view as problems to be solvedand instead they're tensions to
be managed.
And so I think part of thatnext stage, as far as like the
critical journey, is just beingable to sit with tensions and
(14:17):
not having to resolve it all.
And I don't know if you'vetalked ever on this podcast or
if you all read the book theCritical Journey by Janet
Hagbert, but for those who arein that season of the wall where
things what worked before isn'tworking now or doesn't feel
like it's working, either goingback a step or going forward
feels more stable, just becausethis feels so unstable.
(14:39):
And so some go back to what'sfamiliar and comfortable and and
this is what I know I need abox or something to stand on and
some just kind of push throughand others just abandon the
whole thing altogether.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Yeah, I think that's.
I'm super glad that you broughtthat perspective into this
conversation, because obviouslywhat we're talking about is not
just a shift from one model to adifferent model.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
That at some point could be an outcome and
different versions of you know.
But it's not about models.
It is about it's almost as ifthe pandemic pushed like a
massive swath of people againstthe wall and we're grappling
with that.
So it's more than just anexternal journey, but there's
something internal that'shappening and that internal
(15:24):
journey is causing just anupheaval of questions to,
thankfully, allow us tore-examine what it is that we're
doing and to, as you say, livewith the tension.
And it sounds like, from whatyou're saying, you're in an
environment at Denver Seminarywhere that's okay.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Which is amazing, because that's, to me, is the
heartbeat of academia.
It's not just answers, it'sthinking, it's an environment
that encourages discovery, notjust solutions.
And I say that at least at thismoment, and I'm going to move
(16:07):
past it.
But we had a couple of kids whowere in a similar institution
in California and it was thekind of institution where a
certain narrative had to besubscribed to by the staff and
the professors and if thatnarrative wasn't subscribed to
and the staff and the professors, and if that narrative wasn't
subscribed to and supported,that they were out.
(16:28):
And I found that to be massivelydiscouraging in an environment
where my kids were encouraged.
They're young adults, they'rein their 20s.
They want to be encouraged andthey're encouraged by people
ahead of them in the journey whoare actually grappling and
don't want to just spoon-feedthem a narrative, and they're
encouraged by people ahead ofthem in the journey who are
actually grappling, yeah, anddon't want to just spoon feed
(16:49):
them a narrative.
So I feel really encouraged andattracted to that environment
that you get to be a part of.
But also, as a segue to ournext question, which is what is
the conversation and maybe it'sa Denver seminary, maybe, maybe
it's a broader conversation thatyou're picking up within
academic circles Is there aconversation about not just a
(17:12):
shift of models but really ashift in eras for the local
church?
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
And what is that conversation?
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Yeah, well, I know we are having it.
I'm having it at least withsome, some with some colleagues
here and with my students in thedoctor of ministry.
I get to create kind of thismicrocosm.
You know my own littlesubculture here, which is great.
You know, in Denver Seminaryand other seminaries we're we're
grappling with not just thedecline of the church as far as
(17:43):
the previous institutionalchurch and trust in leaders and
trust in institutions, so thedecline of that, the decline of
evangelicalism, and also thedecline of theological education
of seminaries.
So, and so we're kind of tryingto do all those things at once
(18:07):
and I think different people areresponding different ways.
Some of them are trying to justfind a different package, a
different container.
I think what you said beforepeople have to ask the right
questions.
We have to ask the rightquestions, not just look for
different answers.
And so I think someinstitutions are going how do we
(18:28):
return or get back?
And I think others are tryingto.
You know, ask these questions,open up different things, but in
the middle of of the thingsjust falling apart under your
feet.
So, um, yeah, I think peopleare asking, asking questions or
seeing the shifts, and they'reresponding in different ways.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Yeah, yeah.
So what I hear you saying issome are buckling down harder.
How can we take what it is thatwe're doing and make sure that,
uh, we are, um, justreinforcing it where, where it's
plugging the holes in theTitanic and we're not sinking?
We are, uh, and others aresaying, well, wait a minute.
(19:11):
No, we are.
Uh, there's something that ishappening and it's time for
adaptation.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
And that's interesting.
And so what is that like thenat Denver seminary, in specific,
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
And so what is that like then at Denver Seminary in
specific, ask me, in five years?
No, I don't know.
I mean well, I mean I thinkwe're.
What is it like in DenverSeminary?
There's several colleagues andwe're reading a book right now
called the End of TheologicalEducation, by a guy who's
talking about, yeah, we're at anend of, I think, a major era.
(19:45):
And so Phyllis Tickle, in herbook the Great Emergence, quotes
an Anglican bishop who talkedabout every 500 years, the
church seems to have a bigrummage sale, and you know, the
last one was the Reformation.
Well, you count forward 500years, and here we are.
And so I think people arerealizing, and in the book Ted
(20:07):
Smith, the author he talks about, he doesn't talk about decline,
he talks about unraveling, andso he talks about just all the
structures and the institutionsand kind of this ecosystem,
church, parachurch, seminary,everything that has grown up and
so around all that.
And so I think we don't knowwhat's next.
(20:30):
You know, we're we, we don'tsee this clear thing.
And so it's a friend of mineone time said instead of like
he's leading from a submarine,so instead of leading from the
deck of a battleship, he has tolead by sonar.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yeah, that's a great analogy.
Yeah, and I love that becausesonar has to do with what it is
that we hear, not necessarilywhat it is that we see.
I mean, you might see it on asonar monitor, but the sound is
picked up.
And that seems to resonate withwhat I'm hearing from other
people, in that this is a seasonnot so much for figuring out as
much as it is a season forslowing down, taking stock,
(21:16):
decompression, deprogramming andnot figuring out what's next,
as much as looking back to theone that we're seeking and to
re-engage in the voice of theone who wants to lead his people
, not really and make thedestination.
Where are we going?
(21:36):
Almost an afterthought is whoit is that we're seeking and in
that space, embracing the limliminal, embracing the
in-between, and what is he doingin us which, when you look at
the ecclesiological landscape,it looks like a lot needs to be
done in us yeah, I think I agreewith kirk.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
There seems to be this kind of caution around, or
even inability to know, like Idon't know whether it's a
caution or an inability to seewhat can be next, and I think
that that's actually a gift insome ways.
As much as we want to kind ofchart the course and figure it
out, I think that there is,there's a gift, I think, the
(22:22):
Holy Spirit's given us at themoment of space of pause, of
reflection.
In fact, our first episode ofthis podcast was, I think it was
called Pausing for Reflection,space to See the Mountains.
So how can we even see if wedon't pause, especially if
there's this era shifting?
We even see if we don't pause,especially if there's this era
(22:46):
shifting, if we are living insuch these times of an era
shifting, um time for the church.
I think we need the time to toreflect, to think through these
issues, and I think that takestime, um, and I know for me as a
visionary, that's sofrustrating.
I just want to get to the nextthing, you know, but I think I
can't.
I can only just imagine whatthat is for the, for academia
(23:08):
and and training future leaders,and how do you do that like?
I mean, there is tension therein that space.
So it leads me to anotherquestion and she um, if I'd love
your input on this, as we, youknow, as we close out this
episode really, but we just wantto.
I mean, obviously it doesn'ttake much to see what's
(23:31):
happening in the, you know,there's this crisis of
leadership that we're seeing.
As, as a leadership umprofessional, someone who's
studied leadership so much, itmust be very disheartening to
see that we're seeing churchleaders, especially in the
mainstream evangelical church.
We've got abuses, scandals, Imean just even the recent IHOP
(23:56):
International House of Prayer inKansas City, and that's just
one.
I mean, it's just like it feelslike there's dominoes on this,
like everything.
A lot of leaders are falling,and it's not just the leaders,
it's like I think the layersthat that are involved in those
spaces then are exposed, and Ithink it exposes and it leads
(24:20):
people to those questions.
But I would love to hear yourthoughts, your take on, you know
, as a leadership educationprofessional, like, what is your
take on that and what is yourresponse?
And how?
What does that make you what?
I guess?
What does that make you want towant to do for the next
generation of leaders.
(24:41):
Is there any response, not justlike, ah, this is awful,
because I think we're all withit, like that is a response that
we're all having, but is thereany way forward?
Is there any way to solve someof these problems?
That was a lot.
There were a lot of questions.
I was going to say, yeah, canyou clarify that.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Yeah, can you clarify , like crystallize into a
question more of a?
Speaker 1 (25:04):
OK, just just your thoughts, your, your, your take
on what's happening in the Big Cchurch, church scandals, any,
any thoughts off the bat?
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Well, I think we are.
I think the pandemic hasexposed and accelerated kind of
some shifts that were happeningalready, this kind of rummage
sale kind of thing.
I'm encouraged that people arehaving these conversations.
I mean, we don't know what'sgoing to come from them yet, but
I think what I want to do isjust continue to create the
(25:39):
spaces to have theseconversations, like you all are
doing here, um, and let peopleknow they're not alone and we
don't have to have it allfigured out right away, um.
So I actually have a lot ofhope because I think some needed
questions are finally beingasked yes, so would you say.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
It's like almost, because the light is being.
You know, we're seeing lightbeing shined on some darker
issues, but we're actuallyseeing it, so that's very
hopeful.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
I think I am.
I mean, yeah, I don't feeldiscouraged at all.
I think these are necessaryquestions.
I think they're hard questions,but I think they're necessary
questions.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah, what do you think that?
I mean?
Maybe it's not a new thing asfar as leadership abuses and
scandals and just the whole kindof top-down CEO model.
Maybe it's always beenhappening and now we're just
looking at it, or maybe it'sbecause high-profile issues are
drawing attention to it.
But, as a leadership,professional teaching, training
(26:43):
why do you think these arehappening to begin with?
What's, what's your opinion?
Speaker 3 (26:51):
Well, I think the world has changed, the culture
is changing.
I think, boy, that's a bigquestion.
Might be a whole nother podcast.
Yeah, because I think we'vegotten overgrown in our old
systems and institutions andneeded to be no-transcript.
(27:15):
What we're doing is getting theresults we're getting, and so
people are starting to questionmaybe we're doing the wrong
thing.
And as far as kind of someassumptions about church and
institutions and how people growand all that, I think at least
the Western church boughtwholesale into kind of this
leadership paradigm.
Not that leadership is notimportant, but I think we
(27:38):
uncritically bought into some,uh, worldly models of, and
assumptions about growth and andall that kind of thing, and I
think we've neglected formationout of that.
We're seeing some results ofthat.
So I mean, I think, I think thechurch is at a wall.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
You know, to use the hangberg thing, yeah, yeah so
the church is on its owncritical journey yeah, I think
so yeah, I think one of thethings that I think, from just
talking with people on, you knowthat have been responding to
some of these, uh, abuses,scandals, whatever they are, I
(28:17):
think that there's, you know, onone level, I think there there
is hope, but there's also thisvast disillusionment from people
, especially people who are haveinvested.
So it's the same sort of thingthat we talked about earlier.
This investment.
Not maybe they haven't beenleaders, but they've invested
their lives into something forlike 15 years.
(28:39):
And then suddenly, when it's so,when it feels like so black and
white in terms of hang on aminute, was that even real?
Like I think that that that's athere's a shock factor for a
lot of people.
Um, so, in terms of as leaders,I think it's very hopeful
because we're thinking, oh,finally we're getting to the
roots of some of this stuff thatisn't, it was never supposed to
(29:01):
be there in the beginning, sonow we can actually figure out
what's next.
But I think, pastorally,there's a concern for people's
faith journey, because it is, ithas there's been a level of
trauma and, I guess, damage forpeople who are, you know,
(29:22):
suddenly a leader falls and theycan question their whole faith.
What would you, would you haveany encouragement for people
Maybe they're not in leadership,but people who find themselves
in that position right now?
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Well, just that again .
I mean, you're not alone.
God's there in it with you tobe open with him with everything
you're feeling.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Well, I guess your story, just even your own story
because you're, you're speakinginto leadership, but then you're
, you're in, you're in your ownfaith journey too, is
encouraging to know thatactually, as you wrestle, you're
in the wilderness but there'salso signs of life and hope and
table communities also um signsof life and hope and table
(30:08):
communities and, yeah, god's,god's in it, god sees, um, it's.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
It's not a short, I mean it's.
It's not easy and it's notinstant, it's a.
It's a god wants us more thanwhat we can do or the answers we
can have for him.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Well, angie, we've loved having you with us.
But before we wrap up, we wantto hear about what you're up to.
You've got some thick, you'vegot some irons in the fire, so
to speak, so would you share alittle bit about that?
And as we wrap up, yeah, so I'mactually.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
I mean, this conversation about what is the
church and what I've been doingin my classroom has turned it
into I'm working on a book forInterVarsity Press I'm putting
the finishing touches on, calledthe Whole Church for the Whole
World, church and Parachurch forthe 21st Century, and so you
know, I'm looking at what, thisquestion what is the church and
how did we get here?
I'm looking at this questionwhat is the church and how did
(30:58):
we get here?
And so just kind of askingthose questions, about like
trying to ask the rightquestions, not just looking for
the right answers.
I think we have to ask theright questions first.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
That's real good and we look forward to hearing that
come out.
And do you have any idea of thetimeline and when we could be
looking for that?
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Yeah, it's coming out next March or April.
Yeah, from University Press andyou probably don't have a title
yet because editors have.
I think they're a part ofchoosing that with you.
Well, the working title is theWhole Church for the Whole World
Church and Parachurch for the21st Century.
Whether that'll land on that Idon't know.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
All right, we'll be looking for that.
Angie, it, as always, has beenan absolute delight to talk with
you and to hear your thoughts,because because listening to you
articulate your thoughts aboutchurch, about leadership, about
what God is doing in the biggerpicture is so refreshing.
Development of integrity for meis that you're living it out,
(32:02):
you're tooling it out in yourown personal life.
So there's integration there,which I appreciate, not only the
perspective that that brings tothe conversation and to your
education, but just also thesense that this is a holistic
thing for you, that this matters, and so that gives me
encouragement, that gives mehope, and I hope that does so
for our listeners as well.
So thanks, angie.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
OK, yeah, thanks, glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Thanks for listening to the Reconstructing Passes
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode andyou'd like to help support the
podcast, please share it withothers, post about it on social
media or leave a rating andreview.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Or leave a rating and review and if you're interested
in leaning into thisconversation further, we'd love
for you to be a part of aspecial online community
coaching space calledReconstructing Pastors Cohort.
For details, visit our websiteat bridgeandrhinocom.
See you at the next episode.
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