September 1, 2023 • 44 mins
In this episode, Terry Walling, founder of Leader Breakthrough, is our guest. He's a friend, someone who exudes wisdom and a leader we trust. As someone who's been in Church ministry for over 30 years he is now wanting to finish well by paying it forward. One way he's doing that is through his book (pre-launching September 2023) 'Unlikely Nomads'.
In this episode he shares his insights on how the traditional church is experiencing a deep-seated transition - what he believes is an Abrahamic call to journey towards something radically different. Those heeding the call are what Terry calls the 'Unlikely Nomads' - courageous committed Christ followers who are making the choice to step away from the traditional church and follow the voice of the Shepherd.
We discuss how the journey away from institutionalized faith is not smooth. It's laden with challenges, misunderstandings, and, often, a deep sense of loss. We acknowledge how trusting in God's plan becomes paramount during this transition. It's a journey of surrender, letting go of familiar structures and embracing uncertainty.
We'd love you to tune in to this important conversation.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Reconstructing Pastors
podcast.
I'm Ruth Lawrence in.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And I'm Kirk Romberg.
We're recovering pastorstalking about what it looks like
to make sense of our callingand community expression on the
other side of deconstruction.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Our hope is to create a safe space to explore the
bigger picture of the church,both the present state of the
American Evangelical Church andwhat the future may hold for
those who are searching for abetter way.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
We're really glad you're here.
Let's get started.
Welcome, we're here thismorning with Dr Terry Walling.
Good to see you this morning,terry.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Nice to be here.
Terry's good Doctorate makes mefeel like I'm on the spot, so
it's great to be with you guys,and I have been looking forward
to this, because how does abridge and a rhino fit together?
That has been the most criticalquestion.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
It's a very critical question and we'll have to save
that for another podcastconversation, good For our
listeners.
We, how we know Dr TerryWalling We'll just call you
Terry for now.
How's that is through coach'straining, through Leader
Breakthrough, of which Terry isthe founder and the president.
(01:28):
You want to tell us a littlebit about that, terry.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Yeah, leader Breakthrough is basically a
creation that I had.
After many, many years ofcoaching, I realized that
sometimes we were coaching theproblem or the issue somebody
was facing, but not realizingthat God was actually using that
situation to take them deeperin their development.
(01:52):
So what we did is created notjust coach training but merge
coaching and lifelong leadershipdevelopment together so that we
could better coach the personas they recognize what God's at
work doing in the situation thatthey face.
So I created that about 15years ago.
(02:12):
Before that I was involved incoaching.
Before that I actually hadpastoral ministry background.
But Leader Breakthrough inessence is trying to help coach
and resource Breakthrough in thedevelopment of risk-taking
Kingdom leaders.
So how about that?
Speaker 1 (02:32):
That's so good, and we are.
I know I can speak on behalf ofmyself and Kirk.
We're so grateful for yourleadership and for all of these
years that you've just investedin these resources, because part
of our trajectory has been tobe coaches that help leaders
purpose-driven leaders to havespaces to question, explore and
(02:56):
discover what's next.
So we appreciate that and we'reso grateful that you're here.
We are a friend to us.
We feel very grateful to be inthis space with you, terri, and
as much as we've done justcoaching with you over the last
year, we've just had a fewconversations as well about some
(03:17):
of that spiritual journey thatwe're on, and so thank you so
much for being here on thispodcast.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
My honor and I think the podcast itself is hitting at
such an important time becausewe are at, I really think, a
defining moment in the life of,especially, the church in North
America and, in particular, theUnited States.
And so what you're doing tohelp the leaders, I think is
(03:46):
essential, because everythingnot only rises and falls on
leadership.
Everything rises and falls ongodly leaders who lead out of
spiritual authority as opposedjust to natural abilities.
So what you're doing to helpbring insights to these leaders,
I think is absolutely critical,so I'm excited to join along
(04:09):
with you.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Well, you mentioned critical time and Ruth and I
were talking over coffee just afew days ago about a sense of
timeliness at the intersectionthat we've had with Leader,
breakthrough with you and ourown journey, and come to find
out that you're on your owntransition.
You've done so much work in thefield of transitions
(04:31):
transitions for individuals, forleaders, and here we are in
this massive transition of thechurch and that leads to and I
don't know how that overlapswith your transition into
retirement and what that lookslike but I'm wondering if you
can tell us a little bit aboutthose things and how those are
interplaying.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
We're not in a massive transition of the church
because I messed it up.
Now I'm getting out of town,but I do see, in my own personal
journey over 30 years,something that's been
transpiring for quite a while inthe local church in America.
My passion has been how do weget alongside the local church
(05:14):
and help her be who God's calledher to be?
That was my first go going inwhen I pastored.
By the way, I pastored thechurch I grew up in.
I would not recommend that toanybody.
I've been to counseling but I'mokay.
But anyway, I have been on thisjourney that took me to
Australia for five years to seewhat God was at work, doing in
(05:37):
the church, and come back andwork with a mission agency
focused on revitalizing thelocal church.
But this 30-plus year journeythat I've been on has, I think,
culminated in not just the endof my journey but an important
moment in the journey of thelocal church in America.
(05:59):
Because I do think that thepandemic and everything that we
went through was a signal to us.
I think it was a signal that,even as the churches in America
closed for a while, I think itwas a signal that we were coming
to the end of a major era ofthe church.
(06:20):
If you ever have read JeanTickles, you've written the book
the Great Emergence.
You see in there that she showsus how there's kind of 500 year
segments of the church, the lastone being the Reformation that
happened in 1517.
God's not bound by formula, butafter a period of time Jesus
(06:43):
actually moves into the churchand in some sense it sounds so
strange.
It takes her back and actuallydoes a new work in her
expression as things changewithin the global world in which
we live in.
And so you know, I read thatkind of stuff, all of us have
(07:06):
read that kind of stuff and said, well, that's interesting.
But it was at the pandemic whenI all of a sudden hit what I
call the finishing transition,where I believe God actually is
asking me to focus in on what Ihave so I can give it to others
and they can do it better.
I began to realize something ishappening that is beyond just
(07:27):
trying to get the churchesopened again.
Something is happening thatJesus is jumping into, I think,
taking his sheep to a new place.
Yeah, go for it, ruth.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yeah, I was just gonna say it because I want to
talk about talking about givingsomething to others, and I think
you know that's the part ofyour journey that you've been
discovering.
I mean, you've been someone wholoves the local church right,
you've poured your life into itand the leaders in it, and just
these last few years, thatrecognition of hang on a minute
(08:01):
what is happening Is God doingsomething, a major work in the
like an era shifting time.
And one of the things you aregiving to others right now and I
want to raise this right at thebeginning because I think it
will help set the scene for thisconversation is that you're
about to launch a book calledUnlikely Nomads, really
(08:25):
addressing this topic.
So could you just talk a littlebit about that and just a brief
overview and obviously you'vealready shared as to why, what's
led you there?
A little bit, but talk aboutthat.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Sure, well Unlikely Nomads actually came out of my
coaching.
I've been coaching leaders allover the world, lots of leaders
in the US, and I began torealize, probably two or three
years ago, that the seeds ofwhat I think we're experiencing
now we're now starting to cometo fruition.
(09:02):
And there's a whole group ofpeople out there who actually
have stepped away from or leftthe local church, but not
because they're wanting adifferent worship service, don't
like the sermons of the pastor,aren't disgruntled, you know,
overall with the leadership.
(09:24):
There's a whole group of peopleout there who actually were
hungering for a differentexpression of church, and what I
mean by that is they'rehungering for an authentic life
with Jesus that has lived outtogether with others who are
also passionate for that.
And yet they were caught goingto church.
(09:48):
Many of these people were caughtleading small groups.
They're the deacons, they'rethe elders, they're totally
committed, because sometimes youknow when people leave the
church, the church has beenreally good to write them off.
Oh well, they had a problemanyone has.
Oh well, you know they'realways like that.
No, no, that's not these people.
(10:09):
These people are the onespassionate for Christ and really
many of them have given yearsof their life to the church,
have tried to hang in therethrough all of its up and downs,
hoping that someday thingswould change, coming to the
realization it's actuallyinstitutionalized and it's not
(10:36):
going to change.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
I'm glad you said that word, terry, because it
seems like you referenced COVID,when you know, we're told all
over all of our lives to go tochurch, and then COVID happens,
and then we're told don't go tochurch, and so we don't go to
the building, we don't go to theinstitution, but we're still
the church, exactly Well, forthe first time there's this
massive separation between thechurch and the institution in
(10:57):
terms of our daily lifeexperience, but with a vacuum of
leadership behind it.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Yeah, and what you said is right on the money,
because after having seen thisgroup of people and watched them
and even coached them thengoing through the pandemic, I
watched the closing of the doorsactually in some sense ignite
more to come to the realizationthere's got to be something more
(11:24):
Right and we're actuallyexperiencing the real church
underneath the closing of theinstitutional doors.
Yeah, and I even saw pastors andkey mission leaders and others
who actually, to be honest, Ithink had held on because of, in
(11:47):
some sense, the guilt of notwanting to be one who quits,
actually said no, I got to moveon, yeah.
And now they're out there, theunlikely, what I call the
unlikely nomads, and it'sunlikely because they never
thought this would be them.
Yeah, but, but now it is in themidst of, I think, you know,
(12:14):
let's make sure we're biblical,I think, john 10, where Jesus
talks about my sheep hear myvoice and follow, yeah.
And I think what's what'shappened is Jesus has left the
pen, called out the sheep Notall of them probably will come.
That's the reality we ought todeal with, but Jesus is taking
(12:38):
us to a new pastor.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
That's so good and I'm glad you said that, because
I think swirling around in theconversation, for good or for
bad, is this word,deconstruction, which is such a
huge word, and this is calledReconstructing Pastors podcast.
To move on to the positive sideof the conversation, and you
know there's theologicaldeconstruction, church
deconstruction.
We're kind of limiting thisconversation to church
(13:01):
deconstruction, and whetherpeople identify with that word
or don't is not so much thepoint as much as oftentimes
people who are going throughexactly what you're describing
right now are given the advicego ahead.
You know, deconstruct, just doit in the church.
What would you say to that?
Speaker 3 (13:23):
I would say I think there's a better.
So many of the people I hit.
I know there are other peopledeconstructing their faith and I
understand even some of thereasons for that, but I think
what Jesus is doing isdeconstructing the church.
So if that is actually maybe atleast plausible, to consider
(13:47):
staying inside of the church asit's being deconstructed by
Jesus to create a new churchdoesn't make a ton of sense to
me.
What really makes sense to meis Revelation 3.20.
And Jesus standing at the doorand knocking and we've imported
(14:09):
that as an evangelistic verse,but those who have studied that
passage know that's Jesus askingfor his church back and Cam I
come in and will you let me comein, and will you then do what I
need, I think is the absolutekey, which is really hard for us
(14:32):
Americans, and that's surrender.
Will you actually give her backto me?
Because the power of and theprize of surrender is Revelation
.
If you'll give her back to meand align with the work I'm
doing, there's a greater chanceyou'll see the new place I'm
(14:53):
taking her.
If you don't, then you'recaught in ambition.
You're just gonna make thisthing work no matter what, and
that's a dangerous position.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Yeah, I think that that's some of the stuff that me
and Kirk have experienced inour own walk.
I would describe us as unlikelynomads and I just want to say
thank you for validating thosepeople because I know that for
me, I never thought I would bein this place.
I didn't even know what I'mdoing on Sunday.
(15:26):
All of these, I've beenbreathing this air for 25 years.
I would say that I've given mylife to want to build the church
and in some ways I still do,but not the institution.
So I think just that validationof it's so easy to write people
off and say are therebacksliding?
(15:46):
And I think that there is anarrative, a little narrative
that's coming from people, Iguess, who are a little in fear
of what's happening or don'tunderstand it, where there's
assumptions that can be madefrom people who are following
the voice of the shepherdoutside the church, the
established church right now.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Let me break in just for a second to tell others
through you Unlikely nomads arestill incredibly passionate for
the church.
They still believe in the localchurch and they still want to
(16:29):
see her expressed in a way thatallows others to see the
authentic Jesus.
A lot of this has to do withwhat the local church now has
become in the eyes of the peoplewho stand outside and look at
(16:50):
her and say I could never attendthat place if it holds opinions
and things that it purports torepresent.
It's gotten to the place wheresomething new has to happen in
order to allow people toactually hear the good news of
(17:15):
the grace and the love of Christ.
I just want to validate notonly that choice, but I want to
also validate that the peoplewho are unlikely no man's have
not given up on the church.
What they've given up on is thecurrent expression of church.
(17:36):
There's a big difference there.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
I think there's courage and also I think it's
maybe prophetic and un-lonely.
I think that I have beeninvolved in prophetic ministry
for most of my life as a pastor.
It's been something that I love, following the voice of the
(18:05):
Holy Spirit.
We have versions of what thatlooks like in the institutional
church.
I actually feel like maybe I'mliving out the prophetic
ministry more in this hour thanI've ever done by giving someone
a word of encouragement.
You know what it's lonely, ittakes courage.
It feels like I'm walking apath that I don't even know
(18:27):
where it's going.
But that is the prophetic right.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Absolutely, and that is actually in line with what I
found.
Personally, I've done a ton ofwork on researching personal
transitions.
What I didn't realize over thelast 10 years is how close the
way personal transitions happentagged into the way corporate
(18:53):
transitions happen.
In other words, there's apattern to them, but in a
transition there's thatloneliness, isolation, confusion
, feeling like I've lost theplot, feeling like I've even
lost God in the midst of this,can't hear his voice, can't
(19:14):
actually understand what it isthat's going on.
Everything that used to workdoesn't work.
I mean, if you think about it,that's been the journey of the
church in the last five to 10years, and so the transition
that we're all in, I think is anAbrahamic transition, and what
(19:36):
I mean by that is when God inGenesis tells Abraham to go, he
says pack your bags, go.
Abraham responds back great,I'm going to play with the text
a little bit but where are wegoing?
And God says, no, pack yourbags.
Yeah, okay, but tell me whatthe destination is and I'll go.
(20:01):
No, pack your bags.
In other words, some things,and this is the period we're in.
We have to, regardless of eventhe scorn we get from other
believers.
We have to pack our bags and goand you behave your way into
what's next and discover howGod's at work.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Yeah, I love that.
It's a beautiful analogy onmany levels.
But what struck me when youwere talking, terry, is the fact
that what instigated thatentire movement of Abraham was
one thing, and it was the voiceof God.
It was Abraham hearing God.
And it reminds me, as you weretalking, of something I heard
(20:47):
you say a long time ago,probably in one of your
teachings.
Somewhere you said when we hearGod's voice, there's hope, and
where there's hope, there'scourage.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Hope and courage are linked together and when people
lose hope which a lot sometimesis the pastors and the leaders
you're trying to encourage whenthey lose hope, they lose
courage.
But when they regain hopethey're willing to look again at
the same set of circumstancesand see them differently and
(21:18):
respond by following.
And that's what John Tent saysmy sheep hear my voice.
So voice recognition isabsolutely critical for
reconstructing pastors.
That's his voice saying.
But then it says they hear myvoice and they follow.
(21:40):
So it's an act of obedience andalignment to voice and voice
recognition.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
So that leads directly to, at least in my mind
, what seems to be the mostnatural next question what does
that mean for leaders todaywithin the local church?
What would be, in your mind, aword of advice, or what would be
number one on the priority listfor anybody who is seeking to
(22:09):
lead themselves as they followChrist and maybe hopefully lead
others as well?
Speaker 3 (22:15):
And you know I'm a lifer.
I grew up in the church,literally grew up in the church.
My folks went to church, orthey went back to church,
because they had this little kidthey didn't know what to do
with, and so we were back tochurch.
We went to how about this?
Real quick, we went to a smallchurch that assigned you.
You had to clean the churchonce a quarter.
(22:35):
My dad used to put towelsaround me, lay me in the back of
the church underneath the pews,and this happened, rolled me
down.
I had to roll down the front toclean underneath the pews.
One of the first.
Get ready for this.
Holy rollers, boom, all right.
(22:56):
Anyways, it's actually the truth, even though I've used that
joke before.
But the reality is I grew up inthis thing and one of the hymns
I remember singing turn youreyes upon Jesus, look full in
(23:17):
his wonderful face.
If you do, the things of earthwill grow strangely dim the eyes
of His glory and His grace.
I think the first thing itsounds even simplistic, but it's
(23:38):
not simple and that's this wegot to turn our eyes off the
church and back on Jesus.
It's king.
That's the very first thing wegot to do.
See, we always run to what's thetask I got to do, but Jesus'
(23:58):
model has always been first cometo me.
In fact, that's what he said inMark 3, you know, come be with
me, then go minister for me, andyou'll have the authority to
drive out demons.
So personal renewal precedesand catalyzes corporate change.
The very first thing, before wemake any long-term decisions,
(24:24):
is actually fixing our gaze backon the one who's come in to
take over After that happens.
Do not expect, though, that thenet result will be maintaining
what is so.
What is really coming is adifferent kind of church,
(24:47):
expressed in new ways.
So we got to first fix our eyeson Jesus and then let go of
what it could mean if Jesusstarts to lead in new ways.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, I'm curious, terry, what you think.
I love that and I think youknow that's.
I think what's interesting tome is that I would imagine most
leaders, most Christians thatare leading churches or in
ministry positions or whatever,would say that they're doing
that.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
I know.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
So, but I hear what you're saying because you're
saying turn your eyes on Jesusand let everything, with a
surrender, right of everythingin a new, fresh way.
Yes, but I'm curious about whatyou think is stopping people
doing that, leaders, like, whatis stopping that happening?
What do you think are some ofthose things?
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Well, I think you know I don't want to be really
tender because I myself am goingthrough this, okay but I think
we're going to have to come tothe realization that this means
everything you got to give yourjob back to him.
You got to give your title backto him, you got to give your
(26:11):
influence and even position backto him.
It could mean being a baristaat Starbucks as we start over.
So one of the things that'sactually holding us back, I
think, is we are enmeshed intothis system and institution that
(26:37):
when we think about giving itback over, we start thinking
about kids that are in college,bills that we've got to pay, all
the things that, almost likeHebrew says, can so easily
entangle us.
And the author in in Hebrews 12says lay aside the things that
(26:59):
could so easily entangle you.
Now Make a new, resolutecommitment that I'm following
him, no matter what it takes,and then start declaring that
journey to others.
And that's when the rubbermeets the road, that's when, all
(27:25):
of a sudden, people will getmad, that's when, all of a
sudden, the possibility ofdisagreement will begin to
happen.
And the implications of thatroute, I think, is then the next
step in it Assume somedifferent postures, you know.
Assume the posture of stillnessso you can hear his voice.
(27:46):
Assume the posture of dailysurrender so that you can
actually recognize his voice.
Assume the posture, really, ofletting go of some of the things
that actually we have builtthis whole thing around and
allowing him to actually startshowing you the new ways he
(28:08):
wants to do it.
Assume, actually, the postureyourself of a re-apprenticing.
Here's what I think is theabsolute key Re-apprenticing the
life of Jesus, not fulfillingthe demands of the job, but I'm
(28:30):
going to return to the life ofJesus and do everything I can to
start acting and living out thelife he lived.
All of those things, you know Iwas going to say all those
things I cover in the new book,but all of those things actually
are part of, I think, a wholenew rhythm and set of postures
(28:58):
that we've got to have, so thatit's not just fixing our eyes on
Jesus Know it's behaving ourway differently into the future.
And and then finally well, notfinally, but one other quick
thing is, I think God's raisingup a whole bunch of new
(29:18):
Expressions and new leaders.
So you, you got table curatorsout there.
They've been having people overfor meals and they've been
showing us what that some of thenew looks like you've got.
You've got Sacred coaches outthere who've been helping people
kind of figure out.
You too are a great example ofthat.
You've got spiritual architectswho are actually out there
(29:42):
designing new places for thechurch.
I mean, if you get eyes to see,you begin to realize, holy
smokes, there's a whole thinggoing on out there that I
haven't recognized Because I'venot been in a posture or a place
or even a space in my life toallow it to be seen.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Yeah, I love that.
It I Few years ago.
I paint houses is one of thethings that I do and which I
haven't done in the you knowprofessionally before, and it
gave me different eyes.
I see every white van on theroad.
I Was coming home from hiking aLocal mountain and my son was
(30:27):
with me.
We hiked together.
We're at an intersection and andwe were on our way to 7-eleven
to get a slurpee after the hike,where the stop light and Van
goes by with this reallyincredible ladder, and I said
Kyle, look at the ladder on thatvan.
And he looks over at me, saysdad, you have never admired the
ladder before, but you're right,when we put ourselves into new
(30:49):
spaces, we see things that we'venever seen before.
And right now, what I think Ihear you saying is you're
talking to people who may belistening to us right now, who
find themselves in exactly thatplace, who they have.
They've journeyed out of thepen, so to speak, and maybe
didn't even realize until retro.
They have been following thenudging in the voice of the
(31:14):
shepherd and Maybe they'reexperiencing family pressures,
maybe they are experiencing Somequestions and doubts of people
because they're going off-road.
What would you, how would youencourage somebody in that space
?
Speaker 3 (31:32):
You're not crazy.
I know that sounds reallyStrange, but you're.
You haven't made it up.
This isn't bad pizza.
It's not just the result of abad weekend at church or
anything like that.
You're hearing the whispers.
They're hearing them.
You're not off, you're hearingit.
(31:56):
And the more you actuallyRecognize that you're not alone
there are hundreds and thousandsof nomads out there trying this
in the same way, and the moreyou start to move toward that,
the more you begin to actually,I think, recognize that you're a
(32:18):
part of something new.
And I don't know about you, butI know I'm an early adopter.
But but the reality is that'swhere I want to be.
You know, james tells us a veryencouraging word here's your
life, that's it.
A vapor, a T cattle, steam,exile.
(32:41):
That's it.
Are you?
We got just these few, a lot ofdays.
Think about this.
This all happened on our watch.
Now, I don't know where yourview on the sovereignty of God
is, but if this happened on ourwatch, this must be because God
wanted us present during thistime.
(33:01):
I Said go with it.
Find other nomads to go with.
Recognize that, as you do,you're gonna feel exactly like
those poor Israelites and andthe journeys that have been on
with other nomads Trying tofollow God.
(33:22):
It's not going to be easy, buthere's the good thing it's gonna
be right.
You're right in the place hewants you to be.
And when people go throughtransitions, there's this
beginning stage, there's a timeof of, of questioning, there's a
(33:42):
time of alignment and thenthere's time of direction, and a
lot of people that arelistening have been through this
Personal transition, as God, insome sense, like Abraham, says
Okay, you're ready, pack yourbags.
Don't look back, but pack yourbags and let's go forward.
(34:04):
And I think one of the thingsthat people sorry, ruth, one of
the things that that, that thatpeople need to hear more than
anything else right now, is avery simple word, and that's
this faith.
Trust me.
God is saying to us I know whatI'm doing, but don't believe in
(34:27):
me because you know where it'sgoing.
Believe in me because you knowme in a new way.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
I was just going to say I identify with that and I
think it feels like you'reliterally describing my journey
over the last few years assomeone who's, like I said
earlier, who's just been verypassionate and committed for the
local church and still is.
But it was around COVID I feltI heard the voice of the Holy
(34:58):
Spirit.
It's time to go, ruth, makeyourself available.
You need to get out of thecurrent situation and it is it's
, and what I would say tounlikely nomads is that it will
take courage because people,there's a lot of
misunderstanding out there andthere's a lot to learn.
I feel like this kind of like ohmy gosh, you know, even it
(35:20):
feels uncomfortable not going toa Sunday gathering, you know
and and and it's like, well,what is that about and why have
we got?
Is that just learned behavioror is it community?
And so there's a lot of siftingthat you know you'll have to
embrace and that's okay, youknow it's okay, and a lot of
people won't understand whyyou're not going to a Sunday
(35:41):
gathering, but for me, anyhow, II felt that I needed to kind of
remove myself a little bit inorder to find those new
behaviors that will take me intothe next phase.
So I just want to encourage anylisteners that are out there
(36:02):
who really identify with whatTerry is saying right now is
that, yeah, you, there will be alittle bit of misunderstanding,
you'll need courage, butactually, as you sift through
these things and it's a realsifting journey it's not, it's
not a clear shot and we don'teven really know where, what.
Where we're going looks like,which is terrible.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
Exactly.
We don't, we don't, and and andthat's why a lot of people
won't go they're holding out.
I just need to see what itlooks like, what's the new model
of the church look like, andthen I'll no, no, no, no.
Nice try, you know, but nobananas, you can't.
That that's not going to work.
(36:44):
The reality is no, we go, andas we go, he reveals, and as we
work our way into it.
And, by the way, one other wordthat sounds almost negative you
and I can minister out of dutyand responsibility for only so
long and so many of yourlisteners.
(37:07):
It feels like it's lack.
It's not a very responsibleperson If I finally say I need
to go, but if you keepministering out of duty and
responsibility, you will burnout.
It's the recipe for burnout.
I was, I participated in mymentors.
(37:29):
A guy named Bobby Clinton wrotethe book the Making of a Leader
.
We studied over 3000 historical, biblical, contemporary leaders
.
Here's the one thing that stoodout.
The number one issue thatresulted from studying all those
is this this sad thought thatfew leaders finish well, only
(37:52):
one out of three.
So in their finishing well, thereality is better men and women
than us have fallen, so don'tbe in the category that says
I've just got to keep hanging inthere, because in the end it
could actually be the thing thattakes you down Not take you
(38:15):
toward Christ, but takes youtoward a church that Christ is
to you.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
That's so good.
As we're wrapping up now, Ijust want to like come back to
your book, because we know it'scoming out soon.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about that and what to look
out for?
Like I know, me and Kirk havehad the privilege of reading
through it, which has been so.
We're honored to do that, and I.
What I would love to say isthat I think it's a pivotal book
(38:45):
for our time.
So if listeners, if you see it,please get hold of it.
You know, buy it If you'reinterested in any of the stuff
that we're talking about.
It's just an incredible gift,Terry.
Thank you, An incredible giftright now.
So, but tell us a little bitabout what we can expect.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
Yeah, you know I you can expect and hopefully it'll
come out soon this is 2023.
I don't know when people listento this podcast, but the fall
of 2023.
So what you can expect is notactually just like your typical
book.
What you're going to expect isthis In the book I present why I
think things have changed.
(39:27):
So that's the first part, kindof laying out the case of the
change.
But I thought that I don't wantto do that.
A lot of people are doing that,but I do review that, but it
moves into what I six postersand six guides.
So, in other words, if you,this is you, here's ways to
(39:48):
approach a posture as anapproach, here's way now to
approach the days ahead.
In other words, adults don'ttransition into nothing very
well, so if I'm going totransition, what does that look
like?
Here are six things thatdescribe that life, and then
here are six guides that are allaround you, that are out there,
(40:09):
that could help you as youbegin to live into this life.
The book ends with me talkingabout now.
So, terry, what's the bottomline?
Fixing our eyes on Jesus is oneof the chapters.
Another one is recognizing andlet the mysteries return we have
(40:30):
in the age of enlightenment wehave formula the church and
Jesus let the mysteries returnand then create new spaces for
God to speak.
Those are kind of the residualcoming out of it, but I think
what you and what you canexperience is I share my 30
years trying to pay it forward.
(40:52):
Here's all the things that I'vetried to learn and discern and
see, but here's how they mighthelp us to move into the future.
So it's not a theory book, it'san on the ground practice book
that's trying to actually helpus now head out into this
journey with a clearunderstanding.
(41:14):
We don't know where it's going,but we are following the one
who we know is leading.
Unlikely Nomads, I think, is anapt description for the remnant
or the new group of people Godis now speaking to about a new
(41:34):
day for his church.
There you go.
How'd they do?
Is that decent?
All right.
So there you go.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
That was pretty good.
I'll buy it.
I'll buy it.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
And, by the way, be of good cheer.
We're rounding the corner andheaded toward home, so it should
be out in the next month or so.
So that would be cool, oh great.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
And Terri, thank you so much for coming on.
We hope to have you back.
I don't know if we've told youthat yet or not, but we do hope
to have you back and I know thatthis conversation will be a
gift to many listeners out there.
So we appreciate you, we'recheering you on, we're able to
be in community with you, butfor now, I think that we are
(42:20):
going to wrap up thisconversation.
Kirk, do you have any lastingwords for us?
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Well, no, I don't Other than read Unlikely Nomads
be looking for it.
I'm going to be reading itagain, and I know my wife enjoys
it as well.
And, terri, it has been just adelight and a pleasure to be in
closer proximity to your heart,because it's contagious.
I know, in the midst of all ofthis, you're a man, at least in
(42:51):
my mind, who is a mentor, whomodels over everything a pursuit
of God, an endless pursuit ofGod, and not just stagnating
where you're at.
That's the heart of it all, andso thank you for modeling that.
You're welcome.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
And, by the way, this sounds like a paid announcement
, but I totally believe in whatyou two are doing.
I encourage your listeners tostay locked into each episode
because, both what you're doingand how you're doing it you're
coming alongside the people ofGod's at work and trying to help
encourage them, coach them,resource them, way to go.
(43:28):
I believe so much in whatyou're doing is one of the
reasons that I came on to joinyou with the podcast, so you bet
.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Thank you so much.
Thanks for listening to theReconstructing Passes podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode andyou'd like to help support the
podcast, please share it withothers, post about it on social
media or leave a rating andreview.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
And if you're interested in leaning into this
conversation further, we'd lovefor you to be a part of a
special online communitycoaching space called
Reconstructing Pastors Cohort.
For details, visit our websiteat wwwbridgeinrinocom.
See you at the next episode.
You're listening to the Reconstructing Pastors
podcast.
I'm Ruth Lawrence in.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And I'm Kirk Romberg.
We're recovering pastorstalking about what it looks like
to make sense of our callingand community expression on the
other side of deconstruction.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Our hope is to create a safe space to explore the
bigger picture of the church,both the present state of the
American Evangelical Church andwhat the future may hold for
those who are searching for abetter way.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
We're really glad you're here.
Let's get started.
Welcome, we're here thismorning with Dr Terry Walling.
Good to see you this morning,terry.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Nice to be here.
Terry's good Doctorate makes mefeel like I'm on the spot, so
it's great to be with you guys,and I have been looking forward
to this, because how does abridge and a rhino fit together?
That has been the most criticalquestion.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
It's a very critical question and we'll have to save
that for another podcastconversation, good For our
listeners.
We, how we know Dr TerryWalling We'll just call you
Terry for now.
How's that is through coach'straining, through Leader
Breakthrough, of which Terry isthe founder and the president.
(01:28):
You want to tell us a littlebit about that, terry.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Yeah, leader Breakthrough is basically a
creation that I had.
After many, many years ofcoaching, I realized that
sometimes we were coaching theproblem or the issue somebody
was facing, but not realizingthat God was actually using that
situation to take them deeperin their development.
(01:52):
So what we did is created notjust coach training but merge
coaching and lifelong leadershipdevelopment together so that we
could better coach the personas they recognize what God's at
work doing in the situation thatthey face.
So I created that about 15years ago.
(02:12):
Before that I was involved incoaching.
Before that I actually hadpastoral ministry background.
But Leader Breakthrough inessence is trying to help coach
and resource Breakthrough in thedevelopment of risk-taking
Kingdom leaders.
So how about that?
Speaker 1 (02:32):
That's so good, and we are.
I know I can speak on behalf ofmyself and Kirk.
We're so grateful for yourleadership and for all of these
years that you've just investedin these resources, because part
of our trajectory has been tobe coaches that help leaders
purpose-driven leaders to havespaces to question, explore and
(02:56):
discover what's next.
So we appreciate that and we'reso grateful that you're here.
We are a friend to us.
We feel very grateful to be inthis space with you, terri, and
as much as we've done justcoaching with you over the last
year, we've just had a fewconversations as well about some
(03:17):
of that spiritual journey thatwe're on, and so thank you so
much for being here on thispodcast.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
My honor and I think the podcast itself is hitting at
such an important time becausewe are at, I really think, a
defining moment in the life of,especially, the church in North
America and, in particular, theUnited States.
And so what you're doing tohelp the leaders, I think is
(03:46):
essential, because everythingnot only rises and falls on
leadership.
Everything rises and falls ongodly leaders who lead out of
spiritual authority as opposedjust to natural abilities.
So what you're doing to helpbring insights to these leaders,
I think is absolutely critical,so I'm excited to join along
(04:09):
with you.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Well, you mentioned critical time and Ruth and I
were talking over coffee just afew days ago about a sense of
timeliness at the intersectionthat we've had with Leader,
breakthrough with you and ourown journey, and come to find
out that you're on your owntransition.
You've done so much work in thefield of transitions
(04:31):
transitions for individuals, forleaders, and here we are in
this massive transition of thechurch and that leads to and I
don't know how that overlapswith your transition into
retirement and what that lookslike but I'm wondering if you
can tell us a little bit aboutthose things and how those are
interplaying.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
We're not in a massive transition of the church
because I messed it up.
Now I'm getting out of town,but I do see, in my own personal
journey over 30 years,something that's been
transpiring for quite a while inthe local church in America.
My passion has been how do weget alongside the local church
(05:14):
and help her be who God's calledher to be?
That was my first go going inwhen I pastored.
By the way, I pastored thechurch I grew up in.
I would not recommend that toanybody.
I've been to counseling but I'mokay.
But anyway, I have been on thisjourney that took me to
Australia for five years to seewhat God was at work, doing in
(05:37):
the church, and come back andwork with a mission agency
focused on revitalizing thelocal church.
But this 30-plus year journeythat I've been on has, I think,
culminated in not just the endof my journey but an important
moment in the journey of thelocal church in America.
(05:59):
Because I do think that thepandemic and everything that we
went through was a signal to us.
I think it was a signal that,even as the churches in America
closed for a while, I think itwas a signal that we were coming
to the end of a major era ofthe church.
(06:20):
If you ever have read JeanTickles, you've written the book
the Great Emergence.
You see in there that she showsus how there's kind of 500 year
segments of the church, the lastone being the Reformation that
happened in 1517.
God's not bound by formula, butafter a period of time Jesus
(06:43):
actually moves into the churchand in some sense it sounds so
strange.
It takes her back and actuallydoes a new work in her
expression as things changewithin the global world in which
we live in.
And so you know, I read thatkind of stuff, all of us have
(07:06):
read that kind of stuff and said, well, that's interesting.
But it was at the pandemic whenI all of a sudden hit what I
call the finishing transition,where I believe God actually is
asking me to focus in on what Ihave so I can give it to others
and they can do it better.
I began to realize something ishappening that is beyond just
(07:27):
trying to get the churchesopened again.
Something is happening thatJesus is jumping into, I think,
taking his sheep to a new place.
Yeah, go for it, ruth.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yeah, I was just gonna say it because I want to
talk about talking about givingsomething to others, and I think
you know that's the part ofyour journey that you've been
discovering.
I mean, you've been someone wholoves the local church right,
you've poured your life into itand the leaders in it, and just
these last few years, thatrecognition of hang on a minute
(08:01):
what is happening Is God doingsomething, a major work in the
like an era shifting time.
And one of the things you aregiving to others right now and I
want to raise this right at thebeginning because I think it
will help set the scene for thisconversation is that you're
about to launch a book calledUnlikely Nomads, really
(08:25):
addressing this topic.
So could you just talk a littlebit about that and just a brief
overview and obviously you'vealready shared as to why, what's
led you there?
A little bit, but talk aboutthat.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Sure, well Unlikely Nomads actually came out of my
coaching.
I've been coaching leaders allover the world, lots of leaders
in the US, and I began torealize, probably two or three
years ago, that the seeds ofwhat I think we're experiencing
now we're now starting to cometo fruition.
(09:02):
And there's a whole group ofpeople out there who actually
have stepped away from or leftthe local church, but not
because they're wanting adifferent worship service, don't
like the sermons of the pastor,aren't disgruntled, you know,
overall with the leadership.
(09:24):
There's a whole group of peopleout there who actually were
hungering for a differentexpression of church, and what I
mean by that is they'rehungering for an authentic life
with Jesus that has lived outtogether with others who are
also passionate for that.
And yet they were caught goingto church.
(09:48):
Many of these people were caughtleading small groups.
They're the deacons, they'rethe elders, they're totally
committed, because sometimes youknow when people leave the
church, the church has beenreally good to write them off.
Oh well, they had a problemanyone has.
Oh well, you know they'realways like that.
No, no, that's not these people.
(10:09):
These people are the onespassionate for Christ and really
many of them have given yearsof their life to the church,
have tried to hang in therethrough all of its up and downs,
hoping that someday thingswould change, coming to the
realization it's actuallyinstitutionalized and it's not
(10:36):
going to change.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
I'm glad you said that word, terry, because it
seems like you referenced COVID,when you know, we're told all
over all of our lives to go tochurch, and then COVID happens,
and then we're told don't go tochurch, and so we don't go to
the building, we don't go to theinstitution, but we're still
the church, exactly Well, forthe first time there's this
massive separation between thechurch and the institution in
(10:57):
terms of our daily lifeexperience, but with a vacuum of
leadership behind it.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Yeah, and what you said is right on the money,
because after having seen thisgroup of people and watched them
and even coached them thengoing through the pandemic, I
watched the closing of the doorsactually in some sense ignite
more to come to the realizationthere's got to be something more
(11:24):
Right and we're actuallyexperiencing the real church
underneath the closing of theinstitutional doors.
Yeah, and I even saw pastors andkey mission leaders and others
who actually, to be honest, Ithink had held on because of, in
(11:47):
some sense, the guilt of notwanting to be one who quits,
actually said no, I got to moveon, yeah.
And now they're out there, theunlikely, what I call the
unlikely nomads, and it'sunlikely because they never
thought this would be them.
Yeah, but, but now it is in themidst of, I think, you know,
(12:14):
let's make sure we're biblical,I think, john 10, where Jesus
talks about my sheep hear myvoice and follow, yeah.
And I think what's what'shappened is Jesus has left the
pen, called out the sheep Notall of them probably will come.
That's the reality we ought todeal with, but Jesus is taking
(12:38):
us to a new pastor.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
That's so good and I'm glad you said that, because
I think swirling around in theconversation, for good or for
bad, is this word,deconstruction, which is such a
huge word, and this is calledReconstructing Pastors podcast.
To move on to the positive sideof the conversation, and you
know there's theologicaldeconstruction, church
deconstruction.
We're kind of limiting thisconversation to church
(13:01):
deconstruction, and whetherpeople identify with that word
or don't is not so much thepoint as much as oftentimes
people who are going throughexactly what you're describing
right now are given the advicego ahead.
You know, deconstruct, just doit in the church.
What would you say to that?
Speaker 3 (13:23):
I would say I think there's a better.
So many of the people I hit.
I know there are other peopledeconstructing their faith and I
understand even some of thereasons for that, but I think
what Jesus is doing isdeconstructing the church.
So if that is actually maybe atleast plausible, to consider
(13:47):
staying inside of the church asit's being deconstructed by
Jesus to create a new churchdoesn't make a ton of sense to
me.
What really makes sense to meis Revelation 3.20.
And Jesus standing at the doorand knocking and we've imported
(14:09):
that as an evangelistic verse,but those who have studied that
passage know that's Jesus askingfor his church back and Cam I
come in and will you let me comein, and will you then do what I
need, I think is the absolutekey, which is really hard for us
(14:32):
Americans, and that's surrender.
Will you actually give her backto me?
Because the power of and theprize of surrender is Revelation
.
If you'll give her back to meand align with the work I'm
doing, there's a greater chanceyou'll see the new place I'm
(14:53):
taking her.
If you don't, then you'recaught in ambition.
You're just gonna make thisthing work no matter what, and
that's a dangerous position.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Yeah, I think that that's some of the stuff that me
and Kirk have experienced inour own walk.
I would describe us as unlikelynomads and I just want to say
thank you for validating thosepeople because I know that for
me, I never thought I would bein this place.
I didn't even know what I'mdoing on Sunday.
(15:26):
All of these, I've beenbreathing this air for 25 years.
I would say that I've given mylife to want to build the church
and in some ways I still do,but not the institution.
So I think just that validationof it's so easy to write people
off and say are therebacksliding?
(15:46):
And I think that there is anarrative, a little narrative
that's coming from people, Iguess, who are a little in fear
of what's happening or don'tunderstand it, where there's
assumptions that can be madefrom people who are following
the voice of the shepherdoutside the church, the
established church right now.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Let me break in just for a second to tell others
through you Unlikely nomads arestill incredibly passionate for
the church.
They still believe in the localchurch and they still want to
(16:29):
see her expressed in a way thatallows others to see the
authentic Jesus.
A lot of this has to do withwhat the local church now has
become in the eyes of the peoplewho stand outside and look at
(16:50):
her and say I could never attendthat place if it holds opinions
and things that it purports torepresent.
It's gotten to the place wheresomething new has to happen in
order to allow people toactually hear the good news of
(17:15):
the grace and the love of Christ.
I just want to validate notonly that choice, but I want to
also validate that the peoplewho are unlikely no man's have
not given up on the church.
What they've given up on is thecurrent expression of church.
(17:36):
There's a big difference there.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
I think there's courage and also I think it's
maybe prophetic and un-lonely.
I think that I have beeninvolved in prophetic ministry
for most of my life as a pastor.
It's been something that I love, following the voice of the
(18:05):
Holy Spirit.
We have versions of what thatlooks like in the institutional
church.
I actually feel like maybe I'mliving out the prophetic
ministry more in this hour thanI've ever done by giving someone
a word of encouragement.
You know what it's lonely, ittakes courage.
It feels like I'm walking apath that I don't even know
(18:27):
where it's going.
But that is the prophetic right.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Absolutely, and that is actually in line with what I
found.
Personally, I've done a ton ofwork on researching personal
transitions.
What I didn't realize over thelast 10 years is how close the
way personal transitions happentagged into the way corporate
(18:53):
transitions happen.
In other words, there's apattern to them, but in a
transition there's thatloneliness, isolation, confusion
, feeling like I've lost theplot, feeling like I've even
lost God in the midst of this,can't hear his voice, can't
(19:14):
actually understand what it isthat's going on.
Everything that used to workdoesn't work.
I mean, if you think about it,that's been the journey of the
church in the last five to 10years, and so the transition
that we're all in, I think is anAbrahamic transition, and what
(19:36):
I mean by that is when God inGenesis tells Abraham to go, he
says pack your bags, go.
Abraham responds back great,I'm going to play with the text
a little bit but where are wegoing?
And God says, no, pack yourbags.
Yeah, okay, but tell me whatthe destination is and I'll go.
(20:01):
No, pack your bags.
In other words, some things,and this is the period we're in.
We have to, regardless of eventhe scorn we get from other
believers.
We have to pack our bags and goand you behave your way into
what's next and discover howGod's at work.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Yeah, I love that.
It's a beautiful analogy onmany levels.
But what struck me when youwere talking, terry, is the fact
that what instigated thatentire movement of Abraham was
one thing, and it was the voiceof God.
It was Abraham hearing God.
And it reminds me, as you weretalking, of something I heard
(20:47):
you say a long time ago,probably in one of your
teachings.
Somewhere you said when we hearGod's voice, there's hope, and
where there's hope, there'scourage.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Hope and courage are linked together and when people
lose hope which a lot sometimesis the pastors and the leaders
you're trying to encourage whenthey lose hope, they lose
courage.
But when they regain hopethey're willing to look again at
the same set of circumstancesand see them differently and
(21:18):
respond by following.
And that's what John Tent saysmy sheep hear my voice.
So voice recognition isabsolutely critical for
reconstructing pastors.
That's his voice saying.
But then it says they hear myvoice and they follow.
(21:40):
So it's an act of obedience andalignment to voice and voice
recognition.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
So that leads directly to, at least in my mind
, what seems to be the mostnatural next question what does
that mean for leaders todaywithin the local church?
What would be, in your mind, aword of advice, or what would be
number one on the priority listfor anybody who is seeking to
(22:09):
lead themselves as they followChrist and maybe hopefully lead
others as well?
Speaker 3 (22:15):
And you know I'm a lifer.
I grew up in the church,literally grew up in the church.
My folks went to church, orthey went back to church,
because they had this little kidthey didn't know what to do
with, and so we were back tochurch.
We went to how about this?
Real quick, we went to a smallchurch that assigned you.
You had to clean the churchonce a quarter.
(22:35):
My dad used to put towelsaround me, lay me in the back of
the church underneath the pews,and this happened, rolled me
down.
I had to roll down the front toclean underneath the pews.
One of the first.
Get ready for this.
Holy rollers, boom, all right.
(22:56):
Anyways, it's actually the truth, even though I've used that
joke before.
But the reality is I grew up inthis thing and one of the hymns
I remember singing turn youreyes upon Jesus, look full in
(23:17):
his wonderful face.
If you do, the things of earthwill grow strangely dim the eyes
of His glory and His grace.
I think the first thing itsounds even simplistic, but it's
(23:38):
not simple and that's this wegot to turn our eyes off the
church and back on Jesus.
It's king.
That's the very first thing wegot to do.
See, we always run to what's thetask I got to do, but Jesus'
(23:58):
model has always been first cometo me.
In fact, that's what he said inMark 3, you know, come be with
me, then go minister for me, andyou'll have the authority to
drive out demons.
So personal renewal precedesand catalyzes corporate change.
The very first thing, before wemake any long-term decisions,
(24:24):
is actually fixing our gaze backon the one who's come in to
take over After that happens.
Do not expect, though, that thenet result will be maintaining
what is so.
What is really coming is adifferent kind of church,
(24:47):
expressed in new ways.
So we got to first fix our eyeson Jesus and then let go of
what it could mean if Jesusstarts to lead in new ways.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, I'm curious, terry, what you think.
I love that and I think youknow that's.
I think what's interesting tome is that I would imagine most
leaders, most Christians thatare leading churches or in
ministry positions or whatever,would say that they're doing
that.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
I know.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
So, but I hear what you're saying because you're
saying turn your eyes on Jesusand let everything, with a
surrender, right of everythingin a new, fresh way.
Yes, but I'm curious about whatyou think is stopping people
doing that, leaders, like, whatis stopping that happening?
What do you think are some ofthose things?
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Well, I think you know I don't want to be really
tender because I myself am goingthrough this, okay but I think
we're going to have to come tothe realization that this means
everything you got to give yourjob back to him.
You got to give your title backto him, you got to give your
(26:11):
influence and even position backto him.
It could mean being a baristaat Starbucks as we start over.
So one of the things that'sactually holding us back, I
think, is we are enmeshed intothis system and institution that
(26:37):
when we think about giving itback over, we start thinking
about kids that are in college,bills that we've got to pay, all
the things that, almost likeHebrew says, can so easily
entangle us.
And the author in in Hebrews 12says lay aside the things that
(26:59):
could so easily entangle you.
Now Make a new, resolutecommitment that I'm following
him, no matter what it takes,and then start declaring that
journey to others.
And that's when the rubbermeets the road, that's when, all
(27:25):
of a sudden, people will getmad, that's when, all of a
sudden, the possibility ofdisagreement will begin to
happen.
And the implications of thatroute, I think, is then the next
step in it Assume somedifferent postures, you know.
Assume the posture of stillnessso you can hear his voice.
(27:46):
Assume the posture of dailysurrender so that you can
actually recognize his voice.
Assume the posture, really, ofletting go of some of the things
that actually we have builtthis whole thing around and
allowing him to actually startshowing you the new ways he
(28:08):
wants to do it.
Assume, actually, the postureyourself of a re-apprenticing.
Here's what I think is theabsolute key Re-apprenticing the
life of Jesus, not fulfillingthe demands of the job, but I'm
(28:30):
going to return to the life ofJesus and do everything I can to
start acting and living out thelife he lived.
All of those things, you know Iwas going to say all those
things I cover in the new book,but all of those things actually
are part of, I think, a wholenew rhythm and set of postures
(28:58):
that we've got to have, so thatit's not just fixing our eyes on
Jesus Know it's behaving ourway differently into the future.
And and then finally well, notfinally, but one other quick
thing is, I think God's raisingup a whole bunch of new
(29:18):
Expressions and new leaders.
So you, you got table curatorsout there.
They've been having people overfor meals and they've been
showing us what that some of thenew looks like you've got.
You've got Sacred coaches outthere who've been helping people
kind of figure out.
You too are a great example ofthat.
You've got spiritual architectswho are actually out there
(29:42):
designing new places for thechurch.
I mean, if you get eyes to see,you begin to realize, holy
smokes, there's a whole thinggoing on out there that I
haven't recognized Because I'venot been in a posture or a place
or even a space in my life toallow it to be seen.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Yeah, I love that.
It I Few years ago.
I paint houses is one of thethings that I do and which I
haven't done in the you knowprofessionally before, and it
gave me different eyes.
I see every white van on theroad.
I Was coming home from hiking aLocal mountain and my son was
(30:27):
with me.
We hiked together.
We're at an intersection and andwe were on our way to 7-eleven
to get a slurpee after the hike,where the stop light and Van
goes by with this reallyincredible ladder, and I said
Kyle, look at the ladder on thatvan.
And he looks over at me, saysdad, you have never admired the
ladder before, but you're right,when we put ourselves into new
(30:49):
spaces, we see things that we'venever seen before.
And right now, what I think Ihear you saying is you're
talking to people who may belistening to us right now, who
find themselves in exactly thatplace, who they have.
They've journeyed out of thepen, so to speak, and maybe
didn't even realize until retro.
They have been following thenudging in the voice of the
(31:14):
shepherd and Maybe they'reexperiencing family pressures,
maybe they are experiencing Somequestions and doubts of people
because they're going off-road.
What would you, how would youencourage somebody in that space
?
Speaker 3 (31:32):
You're not crazy.
I know that sounds reallyStrange, but you're.
You haven't made it up.
This isn't bad pizza.
It's not just the result of abad weekend at church or
anything like that.
You're hearing the whispers.
They're hearing them.
You're not off, you're hearingit.
(31:56):
And the more you actuallyRecognize that you're not alone
there are hundreds and thousandsof nomads out there trying this
in the same way, and the moreyou start to move toward that,
the more you begin to actually,I think, recognize that you're a
(32:18):
part of something new.
And I don't know about you, butI know I'm an early adopter.
But but the reality is that'swhere I want to be.
You know, james tells us a veryencouraging word here's your
life, that's it.
A vapor, a T cattle, steam,exile.
(32:41):
That's it.
Are you?
We got just these few, a lot ofdays.
Think about this.
This all happened on our watch.
Now, I don't know where yourview on the sovereignty of God
is, but if this happened on ourwatch, this must be because God
wanted us present during thistime.
(33:01):
I Said go with it.
Find other nomads to go with.
Recognize that, as you do,you're gonna feel exactly like
those poor Israelites and andthe journeys that have been on
with other nomads Trying tofollow God.
(33:22):
It's not going to be easy, buthere's the good thing it's gonna
be right.
You're right in the place hewants you to be.
And when people go throughtransitions, there's this
beginning stage, there's a timeof of, of questioning, there's a
(33:42):
time of alignment and thenthere's time of direction, and a
lot of people that arelistening have been through this
Personal transition, as God, insome sense, like Abraham, says
Okay, you're ready, pack yourbags.
Don't look back, but pack yourbags and let's go forward.
(34:04):
And I think one of the thingsthat people sorry, ruth, one of
the things that that, that thatpeople need to hear more than
anything else right now, is avery simple word, and that's
this faith.
Trust me.
God is saying to us I know whatI'm doing, but don't believe in
(34:27):
me because you know where it'sgoing.
Believe in me because you knowme in a new way.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
I was just going to say I identify with that and I
think it feels like you'reliterally describing my journey
over the last few years assomeone who's, like I said
earlier, who's just been verypassionate and committed for the
local church and still is.
But it was around COVID I feltI heard the voice of the Holy
(34:58):
Spirit.
It's time to go, ruth, makeyourself available.
You need to get out of thecurrent situation and it is it's
, and what I would say tounlikely nomads is that it will
take courage because people,there's a lot of
misunderstanding out there andthere's a lot to learn.
I feel like this kind of like ohmy gosh, you know, even it
(35:20):
feels uncomfortable not going toa Sunday gathering, you know
and and and it's like, well,what is that about and why have
we got?
Is that just learned behavioror is it community?
And so there's a lot of siftingthat you know you'll have to
embrace and that's okay, youknow it's okay, and a lot of
people won't understand whyyou're not going to a Sunday
(35:41):
gathering, but for me, anyhow, II felt that I needed to kind of
remove myself a little bit inorder to find those new
behaviors that will take me intothe next phase.
So I just want to encourage anylisteners that are out there
(36:02):
who really identify with whatTerry is saying right now is
that, yeah, you, there will be alittle bit of misunderstanding,
you'll need courage, butactually, as you sift through
these things and it's a realsifting journey it's not, it's
not a clear shot and we don'teven really know where, what.
Where we're going looks like,which is terrible.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
Exactly.
We don't, we don't, and and andthat's why a lot of people
won't go they're holding out.
I just need to see what itlooks like, what's the new model
of the church look like, andthen I'll no, no, no, no.
Nice try, you know, but nobananas, you can't.
That that's not going to work.
(36:44):
The reality is no, we go, andas we go, he reveals, and as we
work our way into it.
And, by the way, one other wordthat sounds almost negative you
and I can minister out of dutyand responsibility for only so
long and so many of yourlisteners.
(37:07):
It feels like it's lack.
It's not a very responsibleperson If I finally say I need
to go, but if you keepministering out of duty and
responsibility, you will burnout.
It's the recipe for burnout.
I was, I participated in mymentors.
(37:29):
A guy named Bobby Clinton wrotethe book the Making of a Leader
.
We studied over 3000 historical, biblical, contemporary leaders
.
Here's the one thing that stoodout.
The number one issue thatresulted from studying all those
is this this sad thought thatfew leaders finish well, only
(37:52):
one out of three.
So in their finishing well, thereality is better men and women
than us have fallen, so don'tbe in the category that says
I've just got to keep hanging inthere, because in the end it
could actually be the thing thattakes you down Not take you
(38:15):
toward Christ, but takes youtoward a church that Christ is
to you.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
That's so good.
As we're wrapping up now, Ijust want to like come back to
your book, because we know it'scoming out soon.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about that and what to look
out for?
Like I know, me and Kirk havehad the privilege of reading
through it, which has been so.
We're honored to do that, and I.
What I would love to say isthat I think it's a pivotal book
(38:45):
for our time.
So if listeners, if you see it,please get hold of it.
You know, buy it If you'reinterested in any of the stuff
that we're talking about.
It's just an incredible gift,Terry.
Thank you, An incredible giftright now.
So, but tell us a little bitabout what we can expect.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
Yeah, you know I you can expect and hopefully it'll
come out soon this is 2023.
I don't know when people listento this podcast, but the fall
of 2023.
So what you can expect is notactually just like your typical
book.
What you're going to expect isthis In the book I present why I
think things have changed.
(39:27):
So that's the first part, kindof laying out the case of the
change.
But I thought that I don't wantto do that.
A lot of people are doing that,but I do review that, but it
moves into what I six postersand six guides.
So, in other words, if you,this is you, here's ways to
(39:48):
approach a posture as anapproach, here's way now to
approach the days ahead.
In other words, adults don'ttransition into nothing very
well, so if I'm going totransition, what does that look
like?
Here are six things thatdescribe that life, and then
here are six guides that are allaround you, that are out there,
(40:09):
that could help you as youbegin to live into this life.
The book ends with me talkingabout now.
So, terry, what's the bottomline?
Fixing our eyes on Jesus is oneof the chapters.
Another one is recognizing andlet the mysteries return we have
(40:30):
in the age of enlightenment wehave formula the church and
Jesus let the mysteries returnand then create new spaces for
God to speak.
Those are kind of the residualcoming out of it, but I think
what you and what you canexperience is I share my 30
years trying to pay it forward.
(40:52):
Here's all the things that I'vetried to learn and discern and
see, but here's how they mighthelp us to move into the future.
So it's not a theory book, it'san on the ground practice book
that's trying to actually helpus now head out into this
journey with a clearunderstanding.
(41:14):
We don't know where it's going,but we are following the one
who we know is leading.
Unlikely Nomads, I think, is anapt description for the remnant
or the new group of people Godis now speaking to about a new
(41:34):
day for his church.
There you go.
How'd they do?
Is that decent?
All right.
So there you go.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
That was pretty good.
I'll buy it.
I'll buy it.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
And, by the way, be of good cheer.
We're rounding the corner andheaded toward home, so it should
be out in the next month or so.
So that would be cool, oh great.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
And Terri, thank you so much for coming on.
We hope to have you back.
I don't know if we've told youthat yet or not, but we do hope
to have you back and I know thatthis conversation will be a
gift to many listeners out there.
So we appreciate you, we'recheering you on, we're able to
be in community with you, butfor now, I think that we are
(42:20):
going to wrap up thisconversation.
Kirk, do you have any lastingwords for us?
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Well, no, I don't Other than read Unlikely Nomads
be looking for it.
I'm going to be reading itagain, and I know my wife enjoys
it as well.
And, terri, it has been just adelight and a pleasure to be in
closer proximity to your heart,because it's contagious.
I know, in the midst of all ofthis, you're a man, at least in
(42:51):
my mind, who is a mentor, whomodels over everything a pursuit
of God, an endless pursuit ofGod, and not just stagnating
where you're at.
That's the heart of it all, andso thank you for modeling that.
You're welcome.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
And, by the way, this sounds like a paid announcement
, but I totally believe in whatyou two are doing.
I encourage your listeners tostay locked into each episode
because, both what you're doingand how you're doing it you're
coming alongside the people ofGod's at work and trying to help
encourage them, coach them,resource them, way to go.
(43:28):
I believe so much in whatyou're doing is one of the
reasons that I came on to joinyou with the podcast, so you bet
.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Thank you so much.
Thanks for listening to theReconstructing Passes podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode andyou'd like to help support the
podcast, please share it withothers, post about it on social
media or leave a rating andreview.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
And if you're interested in leaning into this
conversation further, we'd lovefor you to be a part of a
special online communitycoaching space called
Reconstructing Pastors Cohort.
For details, visit our websiteat wwwbridgeinrinocom.
See you at the next episode.
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