December 5, 2023 • 47 mins
Are you seeking clarity and growth in your spiritual journey? Then this is a conversation you won't want to miss. In our latest episode, we have the pleasure of engaging in a truly thought-provoking conversation with the acclaimed author, Terry Walling. His book, "Unlikely Nomads," has stirred a wave of renewal among individuals on a path of faith. We delve into the transitioning phase of the church and how this time of uncertainty could be a catalyst for personal and corporate transformation.
As we navigate this compelling discussion, Terry reveals the importance of allowing divine interruptions, leading to greater spiritual clarity and healing. We explore how the noise of the world often drowns out God's voice and how retuning our ears to His voice is crucial for spiritual growth. The conversation takes a deeper turn as we address the dangers of consumer and celebrity culture in the church and the need for a new approach.
In the final part of our conversation, we shine a light on the role of stillness, solitude, and surrender in our relationship with Jesus. We discuss the potential dangers within the ministry and emphasize the importance of being with Jesus before engaging in ministry for Him. If you're a pastor or a church leader grappling with the transitions within the church, this conversation will provide you with valuable insights and practical advice. Join us as we uncover new paths in faith, spiritual growth, and transformation.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Reconstructing Pastors
podcast.
I'm Ruth Lawrence in.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And I'm Kirk Romberg.
We're recovering pastorstalking about what it looks like
to make sense of our callingand community expression on the
other side of deconstruction.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Our hope is to create a safe space to explore the
bigger picture of the church,both the present state of the
American evangelical church andwhat the future may hold for
those who are searching for abetter way.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
We're really glad you're here.
Let's get started.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Well, we are so excited for this episode of the
Reconstructing Pastors podcastbecause we got one of our
favorite people with us today,Terry Welling.
We're so glad that you're back.
We've got you back.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
It's so nice to be back.
I'm saying to myself we'redoing this again.
This is amazing.
I've never been on a repeatpodcast except for Mark Sayers.
So you're, that's some decentcompany.
There you go.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Can I just tell you that, just to encourage you,
that your episode that adds notlong ago actually is our most
listened to episode, and I thinkwe talked in that time about
this book that you were about tobring out.
You brought it out now we wantto talk about that in just a sec
, but I think the book isunlikely nomads and I think it
(01:32):
tapped on something that so manypeople are feeling right now,
which is why I think it's themost well listened to episode
for Reconstructing Pastors, andI had to.
Both myself and Kirk had somany people reach out to us
personally thanking us for thatepisode.
They said things like, finally,someone kind of said what I've
(01:57):
been feeling for so many years.
I think it just adds words tosome of the pain, some of the
tensions, some of the issues andsome of the hope that we all
feel too as we travel forward tosee what Giza is doing in this
chair.
So thank you, terri.
That was a long introduction,but we have lured you back.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Well, you can do that any time you want.
Having struggled my whole lifewith approval, Just keep going.
That was just really good.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Why don't you start us off?
We'd love to hear how it's beengoing with the book.
I know it's come out.
It's only been about a month orso, but yeah, tell us how it's
been going.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
A little shameless promotion right there, all
whiteed out, but that's oh, lookat that.
Yeah, you too can get a freecopy.
It's gone really surprisinglywell, and I don't mean that like
in a false humility, I justSometimes you write a book and
you don't really know completelywhat.
(03:08):
If it's going to actuallyreally touch a need.
It might be a need within you,or it might be just one that's
in your small tribe, but itfeels like it's touching a nerve
, just like you said, ruth, andthat's the fact that I can't
believe.
Somebody kind of brought all mythinking or thoughts together,
(03:31):
put a label on it, gave me a wayto start thinking about it.
Remember leadership'scommunication, and sometimes
when we don't have words, wedon't have in some sense a way
to actually lead process orcontinue to move forward.
So it's been really warming.
I would say that'd be a greatdeal and I'm thankful.
(03:53):
But it also then illustratesthe need that's out there, and I
hate to call it a niche, butwhat I know, I've seen, and lots
of people have begun to see, isthat there's just this roaming
tribe out there.
That is not actually people whohave just kind of got
(04:19):
disenchanted and left.
No, there's people out therewho are hungry for something
different and more and yet don'tknow where to go, don't know
how to process it, don't knowhow to move forward.
And probably my number onecommitment I mean number one
response from people and then itissued then in my commitment to
(04:39):
stay with us for a little whileis the hurt, the isolation,
that sense of not being able tobelong anymore, that sense of
even loss of identity.
All of that has been the commonthread.
I've heard from people Ithought I was completely alone,
(05:00):
or I know I wasn't alone, but Idon't know where to go next to
find community.
So you know, I just think thatit's indicative of what the book
talks about.
The book talks about the factthat we're in a major transition
time in the life of the churchand I think one of the things I
(05:24):
would, you know, really what'sreally helped me is to
understand what we're goingthrough.
In light of that, not justunderstand our circumstance, but
understand the circumstancewe're in is actually you're not
making it up, we're in anin-between time, we're not going
back, but we don't know whichway forward.
(05:47):
That's the place, that's theexperience where God does some
of His greatest work.
But, like I wrote in theearlier book stuck on personal
transitions, that moment in timewe want out.
It's like everything soundefined, we want out but God
wants in.
(06:08):
We want it to be over, we wantthe next model, we want how to
do it, we want all those thingsthat kind of put us back in
control.
And yet transitions are allabout trust, dependency, hearing
God's voice in new ways.
So people aren't making this up.
(06:29):
This is actually what's goingon and we're moving from one
major era of the church to thenext.
So you know, all of that, Ithink, has been part of why,
potentially, the book hasresonated with so many people,
because it's really puttingwords to what really is truly
(06:50):
going on.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Yeah, that to me doesn't feel I'm sure Ruth would
agree like a surprisingexperience that you're having A
lot of resonance, a lot ofpositive feedback, probably a
lot of gratitude.
We've heard people say, wow.
I was in tears within the first, within the introduction.
(07:14):
My wife was one of those andRuth was one, and I found myself
discapitated immediately.
But I so thank you, thank youfor your contribution and thank
you for applying actuallydecades of learning and
experience and practice intosomething you probably never
(07:37):
expected 20 years ago you wouldbe writing.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Oh no, oh no.
I mean, my classic line is youknow, you throw something
against the wall, you draw atarget around it.
You say I meant to do that.
Yeah, there was.
I never saw it coming.
But in some sense, in aleader's development, that's
what is called convergence.
When God uses you and I'm notsaying anything about me, I'm on
(08:02):
a journey to but when God usesyou to make a unique
contribution and you know, mysmall contribution, hopefully is
to actually open a door for awhole group of people that we're
calling the unlikely nomads towalk through so they can
actually themselves move intowhat God has for them and the
(08:24):
church move into what God hasfor all of us.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Next, what I was gonna say is well, you set us up
brilliantly for the secondsection of your book, actually,
and which is all about postures,which, when I turned the page,
honestly, to that section, andeven just reading that word,
felt like something that waswashing over my soul, because
(08:49):
what I was reading wasn't okay.
Here's what you do next interms of you know, here's the
next model that we should beshooting for, or here's what,
how you should fix this nowtransitional problem in your
life, how to fix the discomfort,the uncertainty, the
temptations that go along withthat, the loneliness, the
(09:11):
isolation.
You don't fix any of that.
Instead, you challenge us tolean further into it and to do
so, to lean further into whatGod has in this time.
And so I'm wondering if youcould talk a little bit about
postures and the value ofpostures in the liminal space
(09:35):
that many people are findingthemselves in today, where they
can't go back to where they'vebeen, they're uncertain about
what's ahead and, in themeantime, there's some
exhaustion, there's weariness,there's uncertainty.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
So, yeah, Let me camp just for a second, not long, on
what you just said, though,because I think, when you turn
the page over, say, the firstfour chapters are answering the
question why?
Why should we look differently?
Why should we go through thisjourney?
(10:09):
Why should we become anunlikely nomad?
What's the big deal?
Well, the big deal is we're ina major transition and time to
change.
So the next section, thepostures, are about the how Well
, how do we approach that periodof time and my great fear in
(10:30):
writing, to be honest with you,as having been a boomer and Lord
forgive me, I've sinned buthaving gone through that whole
period of time when the answerhas always been the next model,
the next method, the next way,the next thing to do.
On and on and on that, eventhough you saw it as something
(10:53):
we're watching over, I saw it aspeople are gonna go.
Oh no, we're going down to adeep hole and I don't know where
we're headed with all of this.
But the postures take us deeper.
If we're going to go to a newplace, we gotta go first to a
new place within ourselves andwith him.
And the reason is voicerecognition and the reason is
(11:19):
eyes to see, because right nowwe're not picking up his voice
like we need to and we're notactually following him like he
wants us to.
So the postures are a set ofactual ways we can position
ourselves to better have eyes tosee and ears to hear what the
(11:41):
spirit could be doing inside thechurch.
So in America everybody wantsthe answer and then they can
actually discard it.
Once I got the answer, then Ican figure out how.
It doesn't fit for me, itdoesn't work for them, it
doesn't do this or whatever, andI'm gonna wanna do my own thing
.
But the postures release ourcontrol and let Jesus start
(12:05):
moving us into the place wherehe can do his deeper work in us.
Remember, personal renewalprecedes any corporate change.
That principle is.
I'm not very smart, that's myone principle in my entire life
and the reality is he's gotta dothe change that we're hungry
for first in us.
That's why it's a journey, andso the first posture is
(12:29):
interruptions.
You've gotta come to the pointthat you're.
If you don't come to the pointof acknowledging the fact that
Jesus has the right to interruptyour life, then we're going
nowhere.
To start kind of a deal, but inhis interruptions, like he did
with Abraham, like he did withMoses, like he did with Peter in
(12:52):
the interruptions.
All of a sudden come theopportunity to begin to see
differently and hear differently.
So what I try to cover in thatposture in particular is that
ability to allow God to actuallyresume control and allow God to
(13:14):
actually take us to a new placewhere we don't know where we're
going.
And that's like I say in thebook, that's just like what
Abraham believed pack your bags,leave, and interruptions are I
use a picture of a backpack inthe book interruptions are
(13:34):
actually the sorting out.
You've got a backpack andyou've got to dump it all back
out and there's some things thatyou don't put back in the
backpack because the journey isgoing to be different and
there's some new things you'vegot to put in.
So he clarifies values and heworks on healing and he goes
after your paradigms.
(13:55):
Those are all the things thathappened in that first posture
of interruption and that is thebeginning.
It sets up then the rest of thepostures and it gives us a
chance to be able to understandthat God is doing a new work
(14:16):
first in me, because if hedoesn't do a new work in you, he
can't do a new work through you.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
The place we find ourselves in this transition.
There is a work that needs tobe done, and I'm curious as to
what you think that work is.
Like.
What do you think coming out ofthe church?
Like what do you think some ofthat work would be?
And then the other thing I'mgiving you two questions in one
(14:48):
year, but the other thing thatmy ears picked up on was the
fact that we can't hear hisvoice and we need to retune our
ears to his voice, and I'mcurious as to why you think that
that's true too, Like what'shappened to our hearing as the
body of Christ and to get us tothat place, you know.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Yeah, you know this can sound a little bit crazy and
you're probably a little heresy, but do you think John, the
apostle John, was hard ofhearing?
Just throw that out to thelistener.
No, I don't have any reason tothink that.
Well then, why did he lay hishead down on Jesus' shoulder?
Here's my honest thought.
(15:33):
I think he wanted to hear theheartbeat, he wanted to make
sure he heard Jesus' voice.
He wanted to make sure hewasn't listening to himself.
He was listening to the one hechose to follow.
So let me kind of nuance that alittle bit.
It's not that we don't hear.
I think what it is is how baddo we want to know that it's for
(15:58):
sure Jesus talking?
Are we willing to actually leanin and recognize that he is
actually talking to us?
So that whole process ofhearing and voice recognition I
could build a whole case.
(16:19):
And it's obvious there's somuch noise in our world right
now, there's so much voices inour world, plus our pathology
and all that kind of stuff iscoming in.
But I really think in somesense Jesus is actually saying I
am still talking, but how baddo you want to know what I have
to say?
And that's what a transitionand an in-between time does?
(16:44):
He interrupts all of the thingsthat we feel, see and know and
says do you want to know what Isee, what I feel and what I know
in order to move forward?
So I answer the second questionfirst the other way.
If I even remember the questionbecause I'm getting old, we're
(17:07):
going to go through a paradigmshift.
You don't finish well without aseries of paradigm shifts.
You just can't and you don't.
And if you look at people whofinish well, you see that.
And the church itself doesn'tkeep moving forward if it
doesn't continue to grow in itsunderstanding of who it is and
(17:31):
who our God is.
So one of the key things withinterruptions is a rewiring of
our thought process, not newtruth, authority of scripture.
But if I go all the way back toyour question, here's what I
think the day of naturalabilities is over.
Why are we going through this?
(17:56):
Because we don't have thespiritual authority we need to
lead the church forward,especially as leaders, and it is
through the depth of characterand God taking us deeper in
intimacy and us surrendering toHim.
That's when, all of a sudden,and like I said, I always
(18:20):
announce my heresy, but I don'tthink it's heresy.
That's when all of a sudden itbecomes apparent that we're
hearing from him and he cantrust us with his presence.
That's what spiritual authorityis the presence of Jesus on you
, and you don't even know youhave it In the days ahead.
(18:42):
Here's the change, ruth nolonger can we lead the church by
our natural abilities.
In the days ahead, we must leadthe church with a greater depth
of spiritual authority.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Well, it is sobering because when we get used to a
certain construct and there's anassumption, a false assumption
I believe that this is the wayit's always been and the way
it's always going to be there'snot really a need to develop a
sense of intimacy, dependency,voice recognition, aw Tozer said
(19:23):
about maybe 50 years ago.
He said my concern with thechurch in America is you can
remove the Holy Spirit from thechurch and the church will just
continue to go on exactly theway it has.
And those were prophetic wordsand I think, if that was true in
1970, whatever how much morehave we gone down that same path
(19:44):
?
It's almost like when you thisprinciple, this posture of
interruption, is getting off thehamster wheel and realizing
that I'm still breathing, I'mstill alive.
But now what do I do withmyself?
Is the anxious tension?
Find another hamster wheel,jump on it, start spinning.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Yeah, yeah, and that's what we do.
That's what we do.
That's what we do and we chaseyesterday's answers, but we're
not going to handle tomorrow'sproblems with yesterday's
renewal.
It's just not going to happenand we could actually keep
repeating, or we can startmoving forward and really
(20:37):
plateau and arrested developmentis where the US church is at.
It's not only plateaued now,it's in official decline.
So the reality is not just youand I.
Okay, well, maybe spiritualformation is the next thing.
No, spiritual formation isbeing actually raised up by God
(21:02):
to say there is an inherentissue here that we got to face.
I can't give you my presencewhen you keep running it on
natural authority and naturalskills and natural abilities.
I will not give you theauthority to a man or woman who
doesn't actually want to godeeper with me.
(21:25):
So the interruption then, see,then starts leading us into
these postures of stillness andsolitude.
So people and surrender peoplecan can have asked me are these
in an order Teresal?
I do number one, then I donumber two.
You know these are all workingtogether.
(21:46):
They'll surface at differenttimes, but they're all trying to
go after what it looks like.
And here's our keyword to alignourselves with Jesus once again
and the new work he's doing.
Alignment is the key.
So one of the things I say insurrender another word for
(22:08):
surrender is alignment.
But the prize of surrender isrevelation.
When we actually choose to sayI want more what you have to say
than what I have to say.
When we fall before him.
It's Jesus in John five, goingaway and actually surrendering
(22:31):
to the father and the fathershowing the son what he's doing.
So the surrender posture is allto say, ok, I'm one, going to
stop.
That's interruption.
And now I'm going to actuallyfully embrace the fact that I
(22:52):
need you.
You don't need me, I need you.
And the reality is in surrender.
This is the urgent questionthat actually starts to drive
some people crazy.
Wait a minute, I've surrendered.
No surrender to the point ofdesperate oh, that's a little
(23:13):
different.
I'm desperate.
Surrender to the point of Mosessaying back to God we're not
going anywhere if you don't gowith us.
That kind of surrender.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, I love that, terry, and I think you know I'm
thinking through some of my ownjourney, I think, as you're
speaking, and I think with theinterruptions it's almost like
we have to, like Kirk said, withthe hamster wheel.
We've got to get off everythingso programmed and there's so
(23:48):
much consumerism and we just tipup and we hear things, we hear
preachers, and there's so muchof that in the mix and I'm not
saying that that's all bad atall, but there's so much of that
in the mix is almost we'veforgotten to know how to tune
into the voice outside of thosespaces and so it's in some ways
(24:11):
God's gift to us to interrupt us.
So we're kind of beingretrained to hear his voice.
But that feels uncomfortable, Ithink, for a lot of people and
scary.
It's like what you know I can,I can actually just hear God for
myself, or God will speakoutside of the confines of what
(24:31):
I'm used to.
So I think that that's reallyinteresting.
And then the surrender part Iwas thinking about how I think
like we've talked about thisbefore.
I think we talked about it inour last episodes and I think
that a lot of people, like youjust said, will think that.
Well, I, of course I surrendermy life to Jesus.
I'm not talking about it and wedo the whole thing.
(24:52):
I actually wrote a poem afterour last podcast episodes on.
I won't share it with youprivately, but it was actually
that.
This type of surrender isn'tthis.
You know it.
Actually there's somethingabout it that says whatever it
takes, whatever it takes to getrid of all of that stuff, I will
(25:17):
give up everything to followyou.
And I remember thinking andthis is just a little personal
thing, so this isn't a narrativeon the whole thing, but I'm a
preacher and is one of the bigparts of what my, my ministry
used to entail and one of thethings that I feel really like
(25:44):
I've wrestled with a lot is theconsumer nature, the consumer
nature of what we've come fromand also a bit of the celebrity
nature.
I just, I just think that and Iremember in the, you know,
within this last year or so, Iremember really having this kind
of wrestle with God and Iremember saying to him I would
(26:07):
rather never preach a sermon forthe rest of my life than
collude with that celebrityculture and beef up that
consumer culture and that, likeI said, that's just a personal
(26:28):
thing for me.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
No, but you know what Ruth, that rudely interrupting,
that's surrendered to the pointof desperate.
I want this to the point that Iwill give up my kingdom, give
up the thing I'm good at, giveup the thing that even employs
me.
I will give up whatever ittakes, because I'm so hungry for
(26:54):
you again and your presence andyour voice in my life.
You know one of the things Itell and it's true, those of you
who've been in the game for awhile ministry wise.
You can get so good doingministry, you don't need Jesus.
That's where the US church isat.
(27:18):
You go to pastorscom, you go tothis, you go to that.
You got everything you need.
You pick this up, you listen tosomebody's podcast and you
repeat it bang, you can be sogood, you don't have to
surrender.
And Jesus says nope, gigs up,no, I'm only going to actually
(27:41):
give my presence to the peoplewho want it the most.
And for you who are highdrivers, this isn't either or,
but this is a flip.
In Mark, chapter three, jesussaid to the disciples come be
with me, then go minister for me, and then you'll have watch
(28:02):
this, boys and girls theauthority to drive out the
demons.
There is that priority order ofbeing with him that starts to
produce a different kind ofministry for him and that, I
(28:23):
think, is the absolute key ofthe future.
If we're going to a new placeand we're going to do new things
that we don't know how to do.
He's going to give his presenceto the people that are trusting
him, that he's leading thechurch into something that's
actually brand new, and Iactually believe that.
(28:43):
I mean it's not that it won'thave parts of what we already
know, but I actually believeit'll be a table more than a
pulpit.
I actually believe it'll bechurch out in the open versus
church that's hiding behindwalls.
This is new, hello.
This is going to be new, and tome, that's the greatest hope
(29:07):
and that's the greatest thingthat can scare all of us who've
been walking down the ministrytrack for a while, and that's
why we need get ready for this.
This is a great transition.
Stillness, sit with it.
If I was going to give you aword to define the posture of
stillness, now, just sit.
What do you mean?
(29:28):
Just sit, sit, quiet.
I mean, you know I'm reallyserious about this when I
started it with an eagle song,started this chapter with an
eagle song learn to be still, bestill To sit for a while.
Wait, I got to pre-note sit.
(29:51):
Allow me to just love on you.
And how about the joy of justus being together, not for your
next sermon, not for your nextBible study, just be with me.
The practice of stillness, andthis stillness paired up with
(30:15):
solitude, these two start tocreate this sense of okay.
You know, one of the things Ido is I coach leaders who go on
sabbatical.
They come to me and they sayI'm going to go on sabbatical,
they're going to let me go forthree weeks.
(30:35):
I just what are you talkingabout?
Three weeks, that's just likenothing.
Well then they say, well, howlong should I go?
I go minimum six months.
And they just laugh.
And they laugh and they gowhatever.
Well, typically they don't get,you know, they get only like
maybe two months or whatever.
And they come back and here'sthe one thing they say I stopped
(30:59):
and I didn't realize how hardit would be to rest, harder than
I thought.
And then the thing that scaresthem is, once they stop and they
start actually experiencingrest, it's hard to actually rev
(31:20):
up the engine again, to getgoing again.
That is us totally unaware ofwhat's going on inside our soul.
For many, the reason there'sburnout is it's actually the
soul begins to kind of shut down, take over.
If you're not going to care forme, then this is going to have
physical implications that'swhat burnout really is but those
(31:44):
.
The posture of stillness, thencreates this ability to start
deconstructing some of thethings you know in order to
start embracing some of thethings that you need to know,
and I just covered two of themright quick there, but I know we
got you know this is an eighthour podcast.
(32:05):
So the bottom line, though, isthe stillness then creates that
capacity to truly not get afraidwhen you start deconstructing
the things you put all yourweight on, that no longer are
going to be the things that holdus up, the unlearning, so both
(32:28):
of those then start to almostcause this thing to even out,
and then we start moving intoother postures that start to
potentially help us figure out,not what do we do, but how do we
fully approach and embrace thistime.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
It sounds incredible.
And especially, you know, I'veread through the postures and
I'm sitting here listening tothem and it's easy to, you know,
compartmentalize even thepostures.
But you're right, they're allintegrated and they're not just
for Sundays but for every day,and there's even a posture of
interdependence where we learnhow to do these things together.
(33:10):
And to me, you know, it's easyto think, okay, well, how long
do we?
What?
A week, you know, should thatbe good?
A month, you know, and what Ihear you describing is really a
decompressing and adeprogramming that is allowed.
(33:32):
And even the healing, Ruth and I, one of the things that we have
talked about in the course ofour own journey, is just the
need to heal from the past.
Because, you know, maybe themetaphor of a hamster wheel
isn't the kindest thing, and yetwhen you get off it you realize
, wow, that kind of is exactlywhat it was.
It's this kind of this roperepetition that's just in your
face constantly.
(33:53):
As soon as you're done, you'rein for another round and they're
actually at least in my opinionis a dehumanizing effect that
it has on the soul, and I thinkabout the ancient Israelites
when they were being brought outof Egypt, and may not be the
best comparison, but it's theone that comes in my mind at the
moment is, you know, God didn'thave just a brief period of
(34:15):
time for them in the liminalspace that there was probably
about.
Every theologian that I've readwould say that they needed to
relearn who God was.
And that's true.
Especially surrounded in aculture where there's so many
false gods, they kind of had torelearn who they were and maybe
for some of them, for their veryfirst time, that they had been
(34:36):
saturated in this dehumanizingsystem and God reinserts new
rhythms into their life tobecome human again and even to
heal.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
It's very, very true You're not gonna learn new
things until you unlearn oldthings, and that is a very
excruciating process.
I'll show you how old I was ourold I was.
That almost makes me feel likeI'm done.
I'll show you how old I am.
(35:08):
I remember sitting in churchwhen they introduced spiritual
gifts and it was like everybodywas just going what is this?
Oh my God.
I mean I went to Baptist churchspiritual gifts oh no, we're
going to the devil.
You know it was just like, ohmy gosh.
(35:28):
I mean now you go, what are youtalking about?
But you know what?
I watched the whole Baptistchurch unlearn the whole concept
of what it meant to be thepriesthood of all believers
which they taught, and be ableto relearn the gifting of each
(35:49):
of us as men and women who werepart of the body of Christ.
And now that's fully, most fullembrace.
I know we still got the dealswith the tongues and everything,
but the bottom line is thatunlearning is the only way that
we embrace then the new learning, the new way, and you know that
(36:15):
whole idea of a paradigm.
We now can see the samesituation in new, fresh ways.
That's why the posture ofunlearning is so important.
By the way, jesus will lead youthrough this.
He wants you to get throughthis more than you want to get
through it and, by the way, hewants you to know his answer
(36:38):
much more than you want to knowhis answer.
Because one of the things I say, the only thing worse than not
knowing what Jesus wants you todo, is knowing.
And all of a sudden comes now,I can't do that, and who's going
to pay for that?
All those questions comeflooding back in.
But it's interesting.
(36:59):
What I did is I positionedunlearning next to integration,
once you pull the pieces apart.
Now the challenge is thereassembling of those pieces
into what I call an integratedlife.
No more silos, no morecompartmentalization.
What if I told you mission anddiscipleship are the same thing?
(37:21):
What if I told you that the wayyou justice and understanding
this issue of race is the samething?
You can't look at this thing asseparated.
It's moves into now a newunderstanding of who he is and
how these things start to fittogether.
(37:43):
That's integration.
And the final posture was thisidea of interdependence.
And it's this.
You don't get to clarity alone.
You're not going to figure thisthing out alone.
It will only be in the contextof authentic community that we
(38:05):
figure out the really hardthings about who we are and
actually who he is, about whathe's doing in us, in order to
figure out what he wants to dothrough us.
So that's why, in the daysahead, we're not talking a small
group, we're talking anauthentic shared life, done in
(38:31):
the context of living that lifeand figuring out more and more
two things.
Spiritual formation is twothings who he is and who we are,
who he is and who we are, backand forth.
They understand and doing itout in the open so that our
neighbor doesn't no longer thinkthat love thy neighbor means
(38:56):
inviting them to church.
Love thy neighbor meansactually watching me struggle to
love them, them identifyingthat struggle and understanding.
I guess maybe he really doeslove me.
He's trying, she's trying,she's there.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
One of the things, harry, that for me was like a
profound revelation was when Irealized that loving my neighbor
and witnessing and all of thosethings actually was the same as
discipleship for me andactually people who didn't know
Jesus God will use to discipleme and that changes our whole
(39:46):
thing, like the way we suddenlyit's a we, not a me, and you,
it's a we are in this togetherand you can actually love people
really well within that, whenyou know you're not the only one
giving, they're actually givingback to you and they're shaping
you and God is using that wholesituation to better each other.
(40:09):
And so I think I love what yousay there about you know the
interconnectedness and theinterdependence as well, and as
we, as we, I feel like we couldtalk forever with you.
But as we just wrap up, I'mjust curious if you've got any
encouragement.
(40:29):
I know that your book hasencouraged people in this space
already, but for our listeners,if they find themselves in this,
in this big transitional spacewhere you know, we know what
it's loaded with, is is beingloaded with isolation, is being
loaded with her, it's itquestions We've got.
(40:51):
We covered that in the lastepisode that we had with you.
But I'm just curious if there'sany encouragement that you've
got for them, any largeencouragement to fight, you know
, even to find those spaceswhere they can not be siloed,
you know.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Yeah, I think my big encouragement, you know, is what
we've talked about almost inthe intro.
You aren't making this up, youaren't alone.
This is actually God at work,kind of that realization that
you're going to be tested overand over as the enemy whispers
(41:30):
the lies.
You should go back to Egypt,all that stuff.
The reality is it's, it'sactually happening and he's in
the middle of it with you.
That's the first one.
I think the second one is thatJesus is actually leading.
So you're not first making thisup and Jesus is actually, I
(41:56):
think, actively reengaged, andnot that he wasn't, but he's
reengaged us as the shepherdleader.
I have never bought the ideathat shepherds aren't leader,
but the reality is he is nowtaking over and you don't have
to actually fall into the trapof having to dream up what you
(42:20):
should do for him.
Instead, it's backing away fromthat kind of pressure we put on
ourselves and, second, it'sjust allowing him to actually
lead you.
And this is why I love John V somuch.
I return to it all Every momentof the day.
(42:42):
Return back to practicing goodold brother Lawrence, practicing
his presence every moment.
Why is that so important, terry?
It takes your eyes off ofdestination and puts it back on
journey.
Take your eyes off of wherewe're ultimately going and ask
(43:06):
him God, where do you, jesus,where do you want today to go?
Cause what I've found is thatrhythm starts to build a greater
confidence.
Though I don't know where I'mgoing, I know now who I'm
following.
I'm not following the culture,I'm not following.
You know what they're saying onFacebook.
(43:27):
I'm not following this.
I'm not following.
I'm following him.
So my encouragement is he isleading, let him lead.
And then the third thing is youwill find others.
If you keep on this journey, ifyou have, you'll get eyes to
(43:50):
see others that are starting togo through it too.
You will start to recognizepeople and see that he is
actually touching others aroundyou.
And what do you do next?
You say, hey, would you like toget coffee sometimes, would you
like to just come over my housefor a meal?
(44:12):
What are you learning?
Here's what I'm learning.
What are you seeing?
Here's what I'm seeing.
And my point is eyes to seegives you eyes to see.
So once you choose to see ithis way, you'll start to
(44:33):
recognize there are others whoare actually doing the same
thing.
And the reason you can't seethem now sometimes is because of
that surrender thing.
Surrender and you might beginto start to see it in a whole
new way.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Terry, when, as we wrap up here, I just thank you,
because what we're hearing is,it feels like the father's heart
coming through a spiritualfather as yourself that there's
freedom, there's permission,there's grace, there's mystery
and discovery.
(45:12):
These are all good things thatthe soul longs for and craves
for, and I can imagine giftsthat he has for us in this space
that can't just be obtained ifwe skip ahead to the next thing,
whatever.
So thank you for that.
That will last me for a whilethere For our listeners.
(45:34):
As we wrap up, we just wannasay, terry, thank you for again
joining us, thank you for yourinput and investment in our life
rather than me and the peoplethat we know and love, and also
wanna make sure that people areaware that they can buy your
book on Likely Nomads on Amazon.
Also, your website atLeaderBreakthroughcom
(45:58):
Breakthrough isB-R-E-A-K-T-H-R-Ucom, but you're
also starting your own podcastand that's called the Nomad.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
Chronicles.
It comes from actually thereality of okay, so how do we do
the journey and what's it looklike when others start joining
in.
So we're gonna not only go intothe book itself but talk to
others who are going throughthis and give some help and
advice in terms of how yourelate to the current church as
(46:35):
well as the new.
So, yeah, we're gonna see whereit goes, but it's basically
coming from the need that Iwanna do everything I can to
help people stay the course andfinish well, so Well thank you,
Terry.
You bet.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Thanks for listening to the Reconstructing Passes
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode andyou'd like to help support the
podcast, please share it withothers, post about it on social
media or leave a rating andreview.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
And if you're interested in leaning into this
conversation further, we'd lovefor you to be a part of a
special online communitycoaching space called
Reconstructing Pastors Cohort.
For details, visit our websiteat bridgeandrinocom.
See you at the next episode.
You're listening to the Reconstructing Pastors
podcast.
I'm Ruth Lawrence in.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And I'm Kirk Romberg.
We're recovering pastorstalking about what it looks like
to make sense of our callingand community expression on the
other side of deconstruction.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Our hope is to create a safe space to explore the
bigger picture of the church,both the present state of the
American evangelical church andwhat the future may hold for
those who are searching for abetter way.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
We're really glad you're here.
Let's get started.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Well, we are so excited for this episode of the
Reconstructing Pastors podcastbecause we got one of our
favorite people with us today,Terry Welling.
We're so glad that you're back.
We've got you back.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
It's so nice to be back.
I'm saying to myself we'redoing this again.
This is amazing.
I've never been on a repeatpodcast except for Mark Sayers.
So you're, that's some decentcompany.
There you go.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Can I just tell you that, just to encourage you,
that your episode that adds notlong ago actually is our most
listened to episode, and I thinkwe talked in that time about
this book that you were about tobring out.
You brought it out now we wantto talk about that in just a sec
, but I think the book isunlikely nomads and I think it
(01:32):
tapped on something that so manypeople are feeling right now,
which is why I think it's themost well listened to episode
for Reconstructing Pastors, andI had to.
Both myself and Kirk had somany people reach out to us
personally thanking us for thatepisode.
They said things like, finally,someone kind of said what I've
(01:57):
been feeling for so many years.
I think it just adds words tosome of the pain, some of the
tensions, some of the issues andsome of the hope that we all
feel too as we travel forward tosee what Giza is doing in this
chair.
So thank you, terri.
That was a long introduction,but we have lured you back.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Well, you can do that any time you want.
Having struggled my whole lifewith approval, Just keep going.
That was just really good.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Why don't you start us off?
We'd love to hear how it's beengoing with the book.
I know it's come out.
It's only been about a month orso, but yeah, tell us how it's
been going.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
A little shameless promotion right there, all
whiteed out, but that's oh, lookat that.
Yeah, you too can get a freecopy.
It's gone really surprisinglywell, and I don't mean that like
in a false humility, I justSometimes you write a book and
you don't really know completelywhat.
(03:08):
If it's going to actuallyreally touch a need.
It might be a need within you,or it might be just one that's
in your small tribe, but itfeels like it's touching a nerve
, just like you said, ruth, andthat's the fact that I can't
believe.
Somebody kind of brought all mythinking or thoughts together,
(03:31):
put a label on it, gave me a wayto start thinking about it.
Remember leadership'scommunication, and sometimes
when we don't have words, wedon't have in some sense a way
to actually lead process orcontinue to move forward.
So it's been really warming.
I would say that'd be a greatdeal and I'm thankful.
(03:53):
But it also then illustratesthe need that's out there, and I
hate to call it a niche, butwhat I know, I've seen, and lots
of people have begun to see, isthat there's just this roaming
tribe out there.
That is not actually people whohave just kind of got
(04:19):
disenchanted and left.
No, there's people out therewho are hungry for something
different and more and yet don'tknow where to go, don't know
how to process it, don't knowhow to move forward.
And probably my number onecommitment I mean number one
response from people and then itissued then in my commitment to
(04:39):
stay with us for a little whileis the hurt, the isolation,
that sense of not being able tobelong anymore, that sense of
even loss of identity.
All of that has been the commonthread.
I've heard from people Ithought I was completely alone,
(05:00):
or I know I wasn't alone, but Idon't know where to go next to
find community.
So you know, I just think thatit's indicative of what the book
talks about.
The book talks about the factthat we're in a major transition
time in the life of the churchand I think one of the things I
(05:24):
would, you know, really what'sreally helped me is to
understand what we're goingthrough.
In light of that, not justunderstand our circumstance, but
understand the circumstancewe're in is actually you're not
making it up, we're in anin-between time, we're not going
back, but we don't know whichway forward.
(05:47):
That's the place, that's theexperience where God does some
of His greatest work.
But, like I wrote in theearlier book stuck on personal
transitions, that moment in timewe want out.
It's like everything soundefined, we want out but God
wants in.
(06:08):
We want it to be over, we wantthe next model, we want how to
do it, we want all those thingsthat kind of put us back in
control.
And yet transitions are allabout trust, dependency, hearing
God's voice in new ways.
So people aren't making this up.
(06:29):
This is actually what's goingon and we're moving from one
major era of the church to thenext.
So you know, all of that, Ithink, has been part of why,
potentially, the book hasresonated with so many people,
because it's really puttingwords to what really is truly
(06:50):
going on.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Yeah, that to me doesn't feel I'm sure Ruth would
agree like a surprisingexperience that you're having A
lot of resonance, a lot ofpositive feedback, probably a
lot of gratitude.
We've heard people say, wow.
I was in tears within the first, within the introduction.
(07:14):
My wife was one of those andRuth was one, and I found myself
discapitated immediately.
But I so thank you, thank youfor your contribution and thank
you for applying actuallydecades of learning and
experience and practice intosomething you probably never
(07:37):
expected 20 years ago you wouldbe writing.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Oh no, oh no.
I mean, my classic line is youknow, you throw something
against the wall, you draw atarget around it.
You say I meant to do that.
Yeah, there was.
I never saw it coming.
But in some sense, in aleader's development, that's
what is called convergence.
When God uses you and I'm notsaying anything about me, I'm on
(08:02):
a journey to but when God usesyou to make a unique
contribution and you know, mysmall contribution, hopefully is
to actually open a door for awhole group of people that we're
calling the unlikely nomads towalk through so they can
actually themselves move intowhat God has for them and the
(08:24):
church move into what God hasfor all of us.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Next, what I was gonna say is well, you set us up
brilliantly for the secondsection of your book, actually,
and which is all about postures,which, when I turned the page,
honestly, to that section, andeven just reading that word,
felt like something that waswashing over my soul, because
(08:49):
what I was reading wasn't okay.
Here's what you do next interms of you know, here's the
next model that we should beshooting for, or here's what,
how you should fix this nowtransitional problem in your
life, how to fix the discomfort,the uncertainty, the
temptations that go along withthat, the loneliness, the
(09:11):
isolation.
You don't fix any of that.
Instead, you challenge us tolean further into it and to do
so, to lean further into whatGod has in this time.
And so I'm wondering if youcould talk a little bit about
postures and the value ofpostures in the liminal space
(09:35):
that many people are findingthemselves in today, where they
can't go back to where they'vebeen, they're uncertain about
what's ahead and, in themeantime, there's some
exhaustion, there's weariness,there's uncertainty.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
So, yeah, Let me camp just for a second, not long, on
what you just said, though,because I think, when you turn
the page over, say, the firstfour chapters are answering the
question why?
Why should we look differently?
Why should we go through thisjourney?
(10:09):
Why should we become anunlikely nomad?
What's the big deal?
Well, the big deal is we're ina major transition and time to
change.
So the next section, thepostures, are about the how Well
, how do we approach that periodof time and my great fear in
(10:30):
writing, to be honest with you,as having been a boomer and Lord
forgive me, I've sinned buthaving gone through that whole
period of time when the answerhas always been the next model,
the next method, the next way,the next thing to do.
On and on and on that, eventhough you saw it as something
(10:53):
we're watching over, I saw it aspeople are gonna go.
Oh no, we're going down to adeep hole and I don't know where
we're headed with all of this.
But the postures take us deeper.
If we're going to go to a newplace, we gotta go first to a
new place within ourselves andwith him.
And the reason is voicerecognition and the reason is
(11:19):
eyes to see, because right nowwe're not picking up his voice
like we need to and we're notactually following him like he
wants us to.
So the postures are a set ofactual ways we can position
ourselves to better have eyes tosee and ears to hear what the
(11:41):
spirit could be doing inside thechurch.
So in America everybody wantsthe answer and then they can
actually discard it.
Once I got the answer, then Ican figure out how.
It doesn't fit for me, itdoesn't work for them, it
doesn't do this or whatever, andI'm gonna wanna do my own thing
.
But the postures release ourcontrol and let Jesus start
(12:05):
moving us into the place wherehe can do his deeper work in us.
Remember, personal renewalprecedes any corporate change.
That principle is.
I'm not very smart, that's myone principle in my entire life
and the reality is he's gotta dothe change that we're hungry
for first in us.
That's why it's a journey, andso the first posture is
(12:29):
interruptions.
You've gotta come to the pointthat you're.
If you don't come to the pointof acknowledging the fact that
Jesus has the right to interruptyour life, then we're going
nowhere.
To start kind of a deal, but inhis interruptions, like he did
with Abraham, like he did withMoses, like he did with Peter in
(12:52):
the interruptions.
All of a sudden come theopportunity to begin to see
differently and hear differently.
So what I try to cover in thatposture in particular is that
ability to allow God to actuallyresume control and allow God to
(13:14):
actually take us to a new placewhere we don't know where we're
going.
And that's like I say in thebook, that's just like what
Abraham believed pack your bags,leave, and interruptions are I
use a picture of a backpack inthe book interruptions are
(13:34):
actually the sorting out.
You've got a backpack andyou've got to dump it all back
out and there's some things thatyou don't put back in the
backpack because the journey isgoing to be different and
there's some new things you'vegot to put in.
So he clarifies values and heworks on healing and he goes
after your paradigms.
(13:55):
Those are all the things thathappened in that first posture
of interruption and that is thebeginning.
It sets up then the rest of thepostures and it gives us a
chance to be able to understandthat God is doing a new work
(14:16):
first in me, because if hedoesn't do a new work in you, he
can't do a new work through you.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
The place we find ourselves in this transition.
There is a work that needs tobe done, and I'm curious as to
what you think that work is.
Like.
What do you think coming out ofthe church?
Like what do you think some ofthat work would be?
And then the other thing I'mgiving you two questions in one
(14:48):
year, but the other thing thatmy ears picked up on was the
fact that we can't hear hisvoice and we need to retune our
ears to his voice, and I'mcurious as to why you think that
that's true too, Like what'shappened to our hearing as the
body of Christ and to get us tothat place, you know.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Yeah, you know this can sound a little bit crazy and
you're probably a little heresy, but do you think John, the
apostle John, was hard ofhearing?
Just throw that out to thelistener.
No, I don't have any reason tothink that.
Well then, why did he lay hishead down on Jesus' shoulder?
Here's my honest thought.
(15:33):
I think he wanted to hear theheartbeat, he wanted to make
sure he heard Jesus' voice.
He wanted to make sure hewasn't listening to himself.
He was listening to the one hechose to follow.
So let me kind of nuance that alittle bit.
It's not that we don't hear.
I think what it is is how baddo we want to know that it's for
(15:58):
sure Jesus talking?
Are we willing to actually leanin and recognize that he is
actually talking to us?
So that whole process ofhearing and voice recognition I
could build a whole case.
(16:19):
And it's obvious there's somuch noise in our world right
now, there's so much voices inour world, plus our pathology
and all that kind of stuff iscoming in.
But I really think in somesense Jesus is actually saying I
am still talking, but how baddo you want to know what I have
to say?
And that's what a transitionand an in-between time does?
(16:44):
He interrupts all of the thingsthat we feel, see and know and
says do you want to know what Isee, what I feel and what I know
in order to move forward?
So I answer the second questionfirst the other way.
If I even remember the questionbecause I'm getting old, we're
(17:07):
going to go through a paradigmshift.
You don't finish well without aseries of paradigm shifts.
You just can't and you don't.
And if you look at people whofinish well, you see that.
And the church itself doesn'tkeep moving forward if it
doesn't continue to grow in itsunderstanding of who it is and
(17:31):
who our God is.
So one of the key things withinterruptions is a rewiring of
our thought process, not newtruth, authority of scripture.
But if I go all the way back toyour question, here's what I
think the day of naturalabilities is over.
Why are we going through this?
(17:56):
Because we don't have thespiritual authority we need to
lead the church forward,especially as leaders, and it is
through the depth of characterand God taking us deeper in
intimacy and us surrendering toHim.
That's when, all of a sudden,and like I said, I always
(18:20):
announce my heresy, but I don'tthink it's heresy.
That's when all of a sudden itbecomes apparent that we're
hearing from him and he cantrust us with his presence.
That's what spiritual authorityis the presence of Jesus on you
, and you don't even know youhave it In the days ahead.
(18:42):
Here's the change, ruth nolonger can we lead the church by
our natural abilities.
In the days ahead, we must leadthe church with a greater depth
of spiritual authority.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Well, it is sobering because when we get used to a
certain construct and there's anassumption, a false assumption
I believe that this is the wayit's always been and the way
it's always going to be there'snot really a need to develop a
sense of intimacy, dependency,voice recognition, aw Tozer said
(19:23):
about maybe 50 years ago.
He said my concern with thechurch in America is you can
remove the Holy Spirit from thechurch and the church will just
continue to go on exactly theway it has.
And those were prophetic wordsand I think, if that was true in
1970, whatever how much morehave we gone down that same path
(19:44):
?
It's almost like when you thisprinciple, this posture of
interruption, is getting off thehamster wheel and realizing
that I'm still breathing, I'mstill alive.
But now what do I do withmyself?
Is the anxious tension?
Find another hamster wheel,jump on it, start spinning.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Yeah, yeah, and that's what we do.
That's what we do.
That's what we do and we chaseyesterday's answers, but we're
not going to handle tomorrow'sproblems with yesterday's
renewal.
It's just not going to happenand we could actually keep
repeating, or we can startmoving forward and really
(20:37):
plateau and arrested developmentis where the US church is at.
It's not only plateaued now,it's in official decline.
So the reality is not just youand I.
Okay, well, maybe spiritualformation is the next thing.
No, spiritual formation isbeing actually raised up by God
(21:02):
to say there is an inherentissue here that we got to face.
I can't give you my presencewhen you keep running it on
natural authority and naturalskills and natural abilities.
I will not give you theauthority to a man or woman who
doesn't actually want to godeeper with me.
(21:25):
So the interruption then, see,then starts leading us into
these postures of stillness andsolitude.
So people and surrender peoplecan can have asked me are these
in an order Teresal?
I do number one, then I donumber two.
You know these are all workingtogether.
(21:46):
They'll surface at differenttimes, but they're all trying to
go after what it looks like.
And here's our keyword to alignourselves with Jesus once again
and the new work he's doing.
Alignment is the key.
So one of the things I say insurrender another word for
(22:08):
surrender is alignment.
But the prize of surrender isrevelation.
When we actually choose to sayI want more what you have to say
than what I have to say.
When we fall before him.
It's Jesus in John five, goingaway and actually surrendering
(22:31):
to the father and the fathershowing the son what he's doing.
So the surrender posture is allto say, ok, I'm one, going to
stop.
That's interruption.
And now I'm going to actuallyfully embrace the fact that I
(22:52):
need you.
You don't need me, I need you.
And the reality is in surrender.
This is the urgent questionthat actually starts to drive
some people crazy.
Wait a minute, I've surrendered.
No surrender to the point ofdesperate oh, that's a little
(23:13):
different.
I'm desperate.
Surrender to the point of Mosessaying back to God we're not
going anywhere if you don't gowith us.
That kind of surrender.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, I love that, terry, and I think you know I'm
thinking through some of my ownjourney, I think, as you're
speaking, and I think with theinterruptions it's almost like
we have to, like Kirk said, withthe hamster wheel.
We've got to get off everythingso programmed and there's so
(23:48):
much consumerism and we just tipup and we hear things, we hear
preachers, and there's so muchof that in the mix and I'm not
saying that that's all bad atall, but there's so much of that
in the mix is almost we'veforgotten to know how to tune
into the voice outside of thosespaces and so it's in some ways
(24:11):
God's gift to us to interrupt us.
So we're kind of beingretrained to hear his voice.
But that feels uncomfortable, Ithink, for a lot of people and
scary.
It's like what you know I can,I can actually just hear God for
myself, or God will speakoutside of the confines of what
(24:31):
I'm used to.
So I think that that's reallyinteresting.
And then the surrender part Iwas thinking about how I think
like we've talked about thisbefore.
I think we talked about it inour last episodes and I think
that a lot of people, like youjust said, will think that.
Well, I, of course I surrendermy life to Jesus.
I'm not talking about it and wedo the whole thing.
(24:52):
I actually wrote a poem afterour last podcast episodes on.
I won't share it with youprivately, but it was actually
that.
This type of surrender isn'tthis.
You know it.
Actually there's somethingabout it that says whatever it
takes, whatever it takes to getrid of all of that stuff, I will
(25:17):
give up everything to followyou.
And I remember thinking andthis is just a little personal
thing, so this isn't a narrativeon the whole thing, but I'm a
preacher and is one of the bigparts of what my, my ministry
used to entail and one of thethings that I feel really like
(25:44):
I've wrestled with a lot is theconsumer nature, the consumer
nature of what we've come fromand also a bit of the celebrity
nature.
I just, I just think that and Iremember in the, you know,
within this last year or so, Iremember really having this kind
of wrestle with God and Iremember saying to him I would
(26:07):
rather never preach a sermon forthe rest of my life than
collude with that celebrityculture and beef up that
consumer culture and that, likeI said, that's just a personal
(26:28):
thing for me.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
No, but you know what Ruth, that rudely interrupting,
that's surrendered to the pointof desperate.
I want this to the point that Iwill give up my kingdom, give
up the thing I'm good at, giveup the thing that even employs
me.
I will give up whatever ittakes, because I'm so hungry for
(26:54):
you again and your presence andyour voice in my life.
You know one of the things Itell and it's true, those of you
who've been in the game for awhile ministry wise.
You can get so good doingministry, you don't need Jesus.
That's where the US church isat.
(27:18):
You go to pastorscom, you go tothis, you go to that.
You got everything you need.
You pick this up, you listen tosomebody's podcast and you
repeat it bang, you can be sogood, you don't have to
surrender.
And Jesus says nope, gigs up,no, I'm only going to actually
(27:41):
give my presence to the peoplewho want it the most.
And for you who are highdrivers, this isn't either or,
but this is a flip.
In Mark, chapter three, jesussaid to the disciples come be
with me, then go minister for me, and then you'll have watch
(28:02):
this, boys and girls theauthority to drive out the
demons.
There is that priority order ofbeing with him that starts to
produce a different kind ofministry for him and that, I
(28:23):
think, is the absolute key ofthe future.
If we're going to a new placeand we're going to do new things
that we don't know how to do.
He's going to give his presenceto the people that are trusting
him, that he's leading thechurch into something that's
actually brand new, and Iactually believe that.
(28:43):
I mean it's not that it won'thave parts of what we already
know, but I actually believeit'll be a table more than a
pulpit.
I actually believe it'll bechurch out in the open versus
church that's hiding behindwalls.
This is new, hello.
This is going to be new, and tome, that's the greatest hope
(29:07):
and that's the greatest thingthat can scare all of us who've
been walking down the ministrytrack for a while, and that's
why we need get ready for this.
This is a great transition.
Stillness, sit with it.
If I was going to give you aword to define the posture of
stillness, now, just sit.
What do you mean?
(29:28):
Just sit, sit, quiet.
I mean, you know I'm reallyserious about this when I
started it with an eagle song,started this chapter with an
eagle song learn to be still, bestill To sit for a while.
Wait, I got to pre-note sit.
(29:51):
Allow me to just love on you.
And how about the joy of justus being together, not for your
next sermon, not for your nextBible study, just be with me.
The practice of stillness, andthis stillness paired up with
(30:15):
solitude, these two start tocreate this sense of okay.
You know, one of the things Ido is I coach leaders who go on
sabbatical.
They come to me and they sayI'm going to go on sabbatical,
they're going to let me go forthree weeks.
(30:35):
I just what are you talkingabout?
Three weeks, that's just likenothing.
Well then they say, well, howlong should I go?
I go minimum six months.
And they just laugh.
And they laugh and they gowhatever.
Well, typically they don't get,you know, they get only like
maybe two months or whatever.
And they come back and here'sthe one thing they say I stopped
(30:59):
and I didn't realize how hardit would be to rest, harder than
I thought.
And then the thing that scaresthem is, once they stop and they
start actually experiencingrest, it's hard to actually rev
(31:20):
up the engine again, to getgoing again.
That is us totally unaware ofwhat's going on inside our soul.
For many, the reason there'sburnout is it's actually the
soul begins to kind of shut down, take over.
If you're not going to care forme, then this is going to have
physical implications that'swhat burnout really is but those
(31:44):
.
The posture of stillness, thencreates this ability to start
deconstructing some of thethings you know in order to
start embracing some of thethings that you need to know,
and I just covered two of themright quick there, but I know we
got you know this is an eighthour podcast.
(32:05):
So the bottom line, though, isthe stillness then creates that
capacity to truly not get afraidwhen you start deconstructing
the things you put all yourweight on, that no longer are
going to be the things that holdus up, the unlearning, so both
(32:28):
of those then start to almostcause this thing to even out,
and then we start moving intoother postures that start to
potentially help us figure out,not what do we do, but how do we
fully approach and embrace thistime.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
It sounds incredible.
And especially, you know, I'veread through the postures and
I'm sitting here listening tothem and it's easy to, you know,
compartmentalize even thepostures.
But you're right, they're allintegrated and they're not just
for Sundays but for every day,and there's even a posture of
interdependence where we learnhow to do these things together.
(33:10):
And to me, you know, it's easyto think, okay, well, how long
do we?
What?
A week, you know, should thatbe good?
A month, you know, and what Ihear you describing is really a
decompressing and adeprogramming that is allowed.
(33:32):
And even the healing, Ruth and I, one of the things that we have
talked about in the course ofour own journey, is just the
need to heal from the past.
Because, you know, maybe themetaphor of a hamster wheel
isn't the kindest thing, and yetwhen you get off it you realize
, wow, that kind of is exactlywhat it was.
It's this kind of this roperepetition that's just in your
face constantly.
(33:53):
As soon as you're done, you'rein for another round and they're
actually at least in my opinionis a dehumanizing effect that
it has on the soul, and I thinkabout the ancient Israelites
when they were being brought outof Egypt, and may not be the
best comparison, but it's theone that comes in my mind at the
moment is, you know, God didn'thave just a brief period of
(34:15):
time for them in the liminalspace that there was probably
about.
Every theologian that I've readwould say that they needed to
relearn who God was.
And that's true.
Especially surrounded in aculture where there's so many
false gods, they kind of had torelearn who they were and maybe
for some of them, for their veryfirst time, that they had been
(34:36):
saturated in this dehumanizingsystem and God reinserts new
rhythms into their life tobecome human again and even to
heal.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
It's very, very true You're not gonna learn new
things until you unlearn oldthings, and that is a very
excruciating process.
I'll show you how old I was ourold I was.
That almost makes me feel likeI'm done.
I'll show you how old I am.
(35:08):
I remember sitting in churchwhen they introduced spiritual
gifts and it was like everybodywas just going what is this?
Oh my God.
I mean I went to Baptist churchspiritual gifts oh no, we're
going to the devil.
You know it was just like, ohmy gosh.
(35:28):
I mean now you go, what are youtalking about?
But you know what?
I watched the whole Baptistchurch unlearn the whole concept
of what it meant to be thepriesthood of all believers
which they taught, and be ableto relearn the gifting of each
(35:49):
of us as men and women who werepart of the body of Christ.
And now that's fully, most fullembrace.
I know we still got the dealswith the tongues and everything,
but the bottom line is thatunlearning is the only way that
we embrace then the new learning, the new way, and you know that
(36:15):
whole idea of a paradigm.
We now can see the samesituation in new, fresh ways.
That's why the posture ofunlearning is so important.
By the way, jesus will lead youthrough this.
He wants you to get throughthis more than you want to get
through it and, by the way, hewants you to know his answer
(36:38):
much more than you want to knowhis answer.
Because one of the things I say, the only thing worse than not
knowing what Jesus wants you todo, is knowing.
And all of a sudden comes now,I can't do that, and who's going
to pay for that?
All those questions comeflooding back in.
But it's interesting.
(36:59):
What I did is I positionedunlearning next to integration,
once you pull the pieces apart.
Now the challenge is thereassembling of those pieces
into what I call an integratedlife.
No more silos, no morecompartmentalization.
What if I told you mission anddiscipleship are the same thing?
(37:21):
What if I told you that the wayyou justice and understanding
this issue of race is the samething?
You can't look at this thing asseparated.
It's moves into now a newunderstanding of who he is and
how these things start to fittogether.
(37:43):
That's integration.
And the final posture was thisidea of interdependence.
And it's this.
You don't get to clarity alone.
You're not going to figure thisthing out alone.
It will only be in the contextof authentic community that we
(38:05):
figure out the really hardthings about who we are and
actually who he is, about whathe's doing in us, in order to
figure out what he wants to dothrough us.
So that's why, in the daysahead, we're not talking a small
group, we're talking anauthentic shared life, done in
(38:31):
the context of living that lifeand figuring out more and more
two things.
Spiritual formation is twothings who he is and who we are,
who he is and who we are, backand forth.
They understand and doing itout in the open so that our
neighbor doesn't no longer thinkthat love thy neighbor means
(38:56):
inviting them to church.
Love thy neighbor meansactually watching me struggle to
love them, them identifyingthat struggle and understanding.
I guess maybe he really doeslove me.
He's trying, she's trying,she's there.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
One of the things, harry, that for me was like a
profound revelation was when Irealized that loving my neighbor
and witnessing and all of thosethings actually was the same as
discipleship for me andactually people who didn't know
Jesus God will use to discipleme and that changes our whole
(39:46):
thing, like the way we suddenlyit's a we, not a me, and you,
it's a we are in this togetherand you can actually love people
really well within that, whenyou know you're not the only one
giving, they're actually givingback to you and they're shaping
you and God is using that wholesituation to better each other.
(40:09):
And so I think I love what yousay there about you know the
interconnectedness and theinterdependence as well, and as
we, as we, I feel like we couldtalk forever with you.
But as we just wrap up, I'mjust curious if you've got any
encouragement.
(40:29):
I know that your book hasencouraged people in this space
already, but for our listeners,if they find themselves in this,
in this big transitional spacewhere you know, we know what
it's loaded with, is is beingloaded with isolation, is being
loaded with her, it's itquestions We've got.
(40:51):
We covered that in the lastepisode that we had with you.
But I'm just curious if there'sany encouragement that you've
got for them, any largeencouragement to fight, you know
, even to find those spaceswhere they can not be siloed,
you know.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Yeah, I think my big encouragement, you know, is what
we've talked about almost inthe intro.
You aren't making this up, youaren't alone.
This is actually God at work,kind of that realization that
you're going to be tested overand over as the enemy whispers
(41:30):
the lies.
You should go back to Egypt,all that stuff.
The reality is it's, it'sactually happening and he's in
the middle of it with you.
That's the first one.
I think the second one is thatJesus is actually leading.
So you're not first making thisup and Jesus is actually, I
(41:56):
think, actively reengaged, andnot that he wasn't, but he's
reengaged us as the shepherdleader.
I have never bought the ideathat shepherds aren't leader,
but the reality is he is nowtaking over and you don't have
to actually fall into the trapof having to dream up what you
(42:20):
should do for him.
Instead, it's backing away fromthat kind of pressure we put on
ourselves and, second, it'sjust allowing him to actually
lead you.
And this is why I love John V somuch.
I return to it all Every momentof the day.
(42:42):
Return back to practicing goodold brother Lawrence, practicing
his presence every moment.
Why is that so important, terry?
It takes your eyes off ofdestination and puts it back on
journey.
Take your eyes off of wherewe're ultimately going and ask
(43:06):
him God, where do you, jesus,where do you want today to go?
Cause what I've found is thatrhythm starts to build a greater
confidence.
Though I don't know where I'mgoing, I know now who I'm
following.
I'm not following the culture,I'm not following.
You know what they're saying onFacebook.
(43:27):
I'm not following this.
I'm not following.
I'm following him.
So my encouragement is he isleading, let him lead.
And then the third thing is youwill find others.
If you keep on this journey, ifyou have, you'll get eyes to
(43:50):
see others that are starting togo through it too.
You will start to recognizepeople and see that he is
actually touching others aroundyou.
And what do you do next?
You say, hey, would you like toget coffee sometimes, would you
like to just come over my housefor a meal?
(44:12):
What are you learning?
Here's what I'm learning.
What are you seeing?
Here's what I'm seeing.
And my point is eyes to seegives you eyes to see.
So once you choose to see ithis way, you'll start to
(44:33):
recognize there are others whoare actually doing the same
thing.
And the reason you can't seethem now sometimes is because of
that surrender thing.
Surrender and you might beginto start to see it in a whole
new way.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Terry, when, as we wrap up here, I just thank you,
because what we're hearing is,it feels like the father's heart
coming through a spiritualfather as yourself that there's
freedom, there's permission,there's grace, there's mystery
and discovery.
(45:12):
These are all good things thatthe soul longs for and craves
for, and I can imagine giftsthat he has for us in this space
that can't just be obtained ifwe skip ahead to the next thing,
whatever.
So thank you for that.
That will last me for a whilethere For our listeners.
(45:34):
As we wrap up, we just wannasay, terry, thank you for again
joining us, thank you for yourinput and investment in our life
rather than me and the peoplethat we know and love, and also
wanna make sure that people areaware that they can buy your
book on Likely Nomads on Amazon.
Also, your website atLeaderBreakthroughcom
(45:58):
Breakthrough isB-R-E-A-K-T-H-R-Ucom, but you're
also starting your own podcastand that's called the Nomad.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
Chronicles.
It comes from actually thereality of okay, so how do we do
the journey and what's it looklike when others start joining
in.
So we're gonna not only go intothe book itself but talk to
others who are going throughthis and give some help and
advice in terms of how yourelate to the current church as
(46:35):
well as the new.
So, yeah, we're gonna see whereit goes, but it's basically
coming from the need that Iwanna do everything I can to
help people stay the course andfinish well, so Well thank you,
Terry.
You bet.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Thanks for listening to the Reconstructing Passes
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode andyou'd like to help support the
podcast, please share it withothers, post about it on social
media or leave a rating andreview.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
And if you're interested in leaning into this
conversation further, we'd lovefor you to be a part of a
special online communitycoaching space called
Reconstructing Pastors Cohort.
For details, visit our websiteat bridgeandrinocom.
See you at the next episode.
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