September 30, 2023 • 54 mins
Are you ready to redefine your understanding of church and ministry? We bring you an intriguing conversation with Rowland Smith, National Director for Forge America, Director of Pando Collective. We delve into Rowland’s fascinating journey from a musical background, sought after worship leader to a seasoned voice and teacher in missiology and fresh expressions of the church.
This episode presents a thought-provoking discussion on the need to rethink our understanding of success in ministry and the importance of staying true to our calling. Rowland reminds us that in reimagining the church, we must remember who we are as missional people as part of this journey. It's as much about returning to something old as finding something new.
We’re so grateful to Rowland Smith! We'd love you to check out more about him, his ministry, books and more.
https://www.forgeamerica.com/
https://thepandocollective.com/
Thanks for listening!
Follow us on
Instagram
Facebook
Leave us a review & subscribe on Apple Podcasts
Support Us
Join the Reconstructing Pastors Cohort
Check out the Bridge & Rhino Coaching Website
We're super grateful for all of you!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ruth Lorensson (00:07):
You're listening to the Reconstructing Pastors
podcast.
I'm Ruth Lawrenson.
Kirk Romberg (00:11):
And I'm Kirk Romberg.
We're recovering pastorstalking about what it looks like
to make sense of our callingand community expression on the
other side of deconstruction.
Ruth Lorensson (00:22):
Our hope is to create a safe space to explore
the bigger picture of the church, both the present state of the
American evangelical church andwhat the future may hold for
those who are searching for abetter way.
Kirk Romberg (00:35):
We're really glad you're here.
Let's get started.
Well, hey, ruth, I am excitedabout our guest today, roland
Smith.
I'll tell you how we gotconnected really quickly.
I was, for some reason, I wokeup with some thoughts early in
the morning and I was lying inbed surfing the internet for
(00:58):
discovering whether or not Forgehad an expression in America.
And I found Forge America.
And then I clicked a little bitmore and is there something in
Colorado?
And I found Pando Collective.
And I found Roland Smith.
I sent an email hey, would loveto grab some coffee.
And I was super excited to getan email very quickly back.
(01:21):
And so Roland and I grabbedcoffee several months ago.
I thoroughly enjoyed ourconversation and wanted to bring
that conversation a little bitinto this space.
So, for our listeners, if youdon't know Roland Smith, roland
Smith is the National Directorfor Forge America, also the
director for Pando Collective.
He's an adjunct professor atFuller Seminary.
(01:44):
He has a master's program thathe leads on Missiology, working
on a doctoral program as well,and I just learned a few minutes
ago that he is also working ona partnership with Denver
Seminary on a degree inMissiology.
So I feel super pumped aboutthat and in addition to that I
don't know where he has the timehe also is a missional pastor
(02:07):
of the church in ColoradoSprings, helping, if I
understand right and maybe,roland, you can correct me a
little bit later on lead thechurch through transitioning
from to a new expression intheir community, and I feel
excited about hearing a littlebit about that.
And if you as if that's notenough, there's also some
writing that you've been doingand we'd love to hear about your
(02:28):
book.
So welcome, roland Smith.
We're super glad to have youtoday.
Rowland Smith (02:34):
Well, thanks, kurt, it was fantastic to
connect with you.
After that list of things, Ifeel like I need an intervention
, probably to slow down, butthat is my.
I mean for people that are into, you know, tests and that kind
of stuff.
I'm a definite like seven withan eight wing enneagram, high
(02:58):
apostolic.
You know I love to start thingsand and have a lot of fun doing
new things.
So I don't know if it's a goodthing or if it's an illness, but
I do have a lot of irons in thefire.
I try to try to keep a lot ofirons on the fire.
Ruth Lorensson (03:13):
Well, it's so good to have you here, roland.
We really appreciate your timeand we know that there's a lot
of alignment with what we'retalking about in this podcast.
And I think one of the firstthings I'd love to hear from you
a little bit is that I knowthat from from your journey in
ministry has has reallyencountered this big transition
(03:34):
from, you know, leading in muchmore traditional institutional
settings to less traditionalexperimental settings, and could
you tell us a little bit aboutthat?
I mean, I know that's a giantquestion, but a little bit about
that transition of of ministry,like where you've come from,
where you are now.
Rowland Smith (03:55):
Sure, yeah, and I'll.
I mean it's.
It is a.
It is a large question becauseit has to do with my, I guess,
kind of my path and my, my story, and so I'm going to try to do
this really fast.
Part of my what I'll term mymissional posture, or my
interest in church outside thewalls or, you know, viewing
(04:19):
church differently, comes fromnot growing up in church, and so
I don't.
I came into Christian faith inmy 20s with, I think, without a
lot of institutional memory or,you know, some might say,
baggage.
In different ways I didn't havethings as much to unlearn and I
(04:41):
was more comfortable with kindof rough around the edges people
.
But my music backgrounds openeddoors for me as a worship
leader into the church once Icame to faith.
So I came off tour with bigconcert tours and stuff and and
do all about lights and sound,you know rock music and all this
(05:03):
kind of stuff.
And so that was when passionyou know Chris Homlin was taking
off.
He was a young kid met Redmanand those guys, and so I was.
I was sought after, you know,as as a worship leader because I
had all this knowledge aboutcontemporary worship.
So I found my entree intoinstitutional church and the
(05:26):
productions, kind of settings,of the stage that we're kind of
familiar with in churches todayand embraced that as, oh, this
must be Christianity and I'm anew Christian.
And so I started down that pathand, you know, over time I read
(05:49):
more, went seminary, studiedmore.
Missiology was kind of I didn'tknow it at that time but that
was kind of my heartbeat Readsome books by now friends of
mine, like Alan Hirsch and MikeFrost and some others, that kind
of wrecked my view of you knowmaybe, how the church was being
(06:13):
built, the methods of the churchand but continued in that, that
direction in worship.
And then I fast forward likeseveral, several years, you know
a couple of decades, and mywife and I actually made a
(06:35):
decision to kind of leave thatsetting, to go experiment more.
We were in Colorado Springs andleft the institutional setting
or prevailing church model opento and started a coffee shop,
planted a missional community inthe coffee shop and, and that
(06:59):
was really I was not going to goback into a prevailing church
model.
I was determined to stay out onthe edges of ecclesiology and I
was continuing my own studies,working on my doctorate and
stuff at Fuller while I wasdoing this.
So all of it kind of wouldweave together really well.
(07:21):
The practice part and thelearning part came together
really well.
And I met a church, some guys ata church in Colorado Springs
who had lost their worshipleader and they just wanted to
hire me as a consultant to helpthem hire a new worship leader.
I had a new coffee shop, wasn'tpaying very much, and so I said
(07:45):
, sure, I'll take a consultinggig.
I'm not doing anything onSunday mornings anymore.
And as I was talking missionalkind of language around the
hallways of their place, theysaid, oh, that's the language
we've been looking for.
And so I found I really feltlike God was saying you know
(08:07):
this, you know, I mean thissounds a little, you know,
churchy, but like this is mychurch, you know.
So don't critique it but helpit.
And I had experience in that.
That had a heart for practiceoutside the church and
discipling people to be sent,you know, to be everyday
(08:29):
missionaries.
And so I really felt like Godwas saying I want you to live
with the foot in both worlds,and so I have actually worked
through my own kind of you knowthe emotions, the thinking of
that, the leadership of that,like how, how I do that and and
(08:52):
very comfortable now being inthat position as kind of like
I'm very comfortable being in anR&D department for the church,
but I'm also I also see thechurch as a beautiful thing,
obviously with a lot of flawsand, I would say, things that
pastors should look at andquestion.
(09:13):
Why do we do that?
Ruth Lorensson (09:17):
you know, and if there's a good reason for it.
Rowland Smith (09:20):
There's a and there's a good reason for it.
So that's been.
That's the quick part of myjourney.
There's a lot of gaps thatcould be filled in, but but I
feel, at 61, I feel like my lifeexperiences, my experience in
ecclesiology and then my heartfor what I would say missional
(09:42):
posturing, has really cometogether in place that I love.
Kirk Romberg (09:48):
So yeah well, thank you for sharing that,
roland.
I just found myself enteringinto your story and and hearing
some, some similar things andalso some hopes that it ignites
in me as well.
So thank you, as you weresharing.
I thought you know that thatwas a.
(10:09):
That was a very brief overviewof what sounds like quite a
journey, and, of course,journeys like that when we are
involved in one type ofcommunity or structure and we
make a transition into somethingnew or different, a lot of that
journey involves people andrelationships, and was that a
(10:31):
smooth journey?
Was that celebrated by thepeople around you?
Did you feel well understood orwhat was that like for you?
Rowland Smith (10:38):
Oh, kirk, I am the, I am the borer under the
saddle of many pastors in thatjourney and even today.
But I try to do that gracefullyand not be, you know, I
wouldn't call myself, you know,necessarily prophetic, but a lot
(11:01):
of times the things that wetalk about in Forge America, the
things that I train and teachand do, can feel very kind of
edgy, prophetic, irritating, youknow, to existing systems.
So if there's a system thatfeels comfortable with what it's
(11:23):
doing, I can, you know, evenunintentionally, you know, be a
bobber, a little bit of a bobber, to that, even when I don't
mean to, because the, you know,the pathway or the goals or
where we want to get to is justvery different.
Ruth Lorensson (11:44):
So you talked about it being an emotional
journey as well.
I'm just curious about how,like I've spoken to multiple
people you know I'm reaching outto different people as the
weeks go on and even around theglobe, of people who've made
those similar transitions.
You know that they've come froman institutional leadership and
(12:07):
given their lives to it,because I think anyone in,
usually anyone in pastoralministry they throw that lot
because it starts at least withthis strong calling and passion
for the church, right.
And then I've spoken to somepeople who've come out of that
and the language that they useis that even like three, four,
five years on, it's still veryimpactful for them, like the
(12:31):
transition and the making senseof that.
You know the making sense ofthrowing yourself into something
and then thinking, oh, hang ona minute, like I've got to
readjust and how do we even Imake sense of my calling.
I think that's one thing that webrought up in our last episode
was just because you leave aninstitution or more of a
(12:53):
traditional model maybe doesn'tmean to say you're leaving the
ministry.
I'm just curious, like if youcould speak into that a little
bit, if you've had some similarexperience, or what would you
say to people who are journeyingthat long journey of wrestling
with calling and emotions.
And am I going crazy?
(13:14):
And is it okay?
And rejection and missing, tobe a misunderstood, possibly.
I'm wondering what you've gotto say about that.
Rowland Smith (13:24):
Yeah, yeah, a couple of, couple of thoughts.
I mean.
First, I think that thatjourney I like to use the word
journey I think oftentimes wetry to get rid of the journey or
we try to not take the journeyand find a shortcut, you know,
so we do that through, you knowleadership books or you know
(13:48):
whatever it is, and but I thinkthe journey, you know, at
someone my age now I'm lookingback I think the journey is very
much needed and I don't anymorethink there's an arrival point,
like there's a place out therewhere I'm gonna arrive and have
(14:09):
it figured out, and so I'mtaking a journey to the arrival
point.
I think the journey this soundsa little mystical or whatever,
but the journey is the thing.
That is the thing.
That's walking with Jesus,that's living with God, that's
figuring out your calling andall of that is that is the
(14:31):
process, that is the thing.
So that's one.
So the answer is yes, you'reokay.
Yes, you should do all thisstuff, yes, you should have
guides and community and allthose kinds of things.
But I think we all go throughthe struggles.
Ruth Lorensson (14:47):
Am.
Rowland Smith (14:48):
I doing what I'm supposed to be doing, or I feel
depressed, or I have anxiety orwhatever it is, and it's just
part of it.
We just shouldn't do it alone.
The other thought I was having,as you were asking, that is, I
think, the.
You know, I don't wanna soundoverly critical, but I think
(15:08):
that this service that we havedone to pastors in particular
and people in ministry is thelens at which we have had them
look at their calling and so andI try to talk to my students
about this, because a lot oftimes they're getting their
(15:29):
masters, they're wanting to leada church or they're going to
prayer church ministry orsomething, and the calling, I
would argue, is not leading achurch or the calling is not the
prayer church ministry.
The calling is to know God andthe calling is to walk with God.
And when we give them a lens, aworldly lens, to look through,
(15:53):
of leading a church, a lot oftimes the leadership that they
learn, all of the things thatthey form themselves with, turns
them into a CEO.
In other words, the metrics ofthe world, the metrics of
business, success, growingthings, that becomes the driving
(16:14):
force in their leadership andtheir calling.
And so they start measuringtheir calling with metrics of
the world.
Now, if you and Alan Roxboroughis a genius at talking about
this stuff and JR Woodward justput out a book, the Scandal of
(16:34):
Leadership, where he cites a lotof Alan's work but if you look
at it through a lens of thekingdom, in other words, the
telos of your leadership, is thekingdom not growing something?
Then all of a sudden themetrics change.
The metrics are low, right, themetrics are servant building,
(16:59):
others up, humility, all thesekinds of things, and I do think
I don't have all the answers,but I do think that this is one
thing we're seeing in the churchtoday with when we talk about
like celebrity pastors and thatkind of thing, we're seeing a
misbalanced telos of leadershipwhere there are metrics of the
(17:23):
world or metrics of the kingdom,and so a lot of times when I
talk to pastors and I'm not acoach like you guys are, but I
often that's what I'm trying topivot back to is like are you
caught up measuring the wrongthing?
Is that why you're so depressedabout what's going on in your
(17:46):
church, or whatever?
Kirk Romberg (17:48):
Yeah, I love hearing that and thank you for
giving us some additionallanguage.
I love the imagery of the telosbecause I think that and I'll
speak for myself I think it canbe easy, when I don't have any
other metric and the other lensthrough which to look at my
calling to confuse kingdom forempire, and I think what I have
(18:13):
been doing myself for the last Xnumber of decades is embracing
the values of empire, whichactually are competing values
with those of the kingdom, sothat you have given me some
really good language to hold onto.
I appreciate that.
But it leads me to anotherquestion is as you have been
(18:34):
going down this journey and Ithank you for A saying that it's
a journey, and B saying youdon't have all the answers, and
for C saying you're stillgetting there and there's not a
destination.
It's the journey with God andis walking with him.
So thank you as you do that.
Where are you on that journeyright now?
(18:55):
Where has your walk with Godled you to this juncture?
You're involved in severalthings, but I would love just to
hear you speak your heart withwhere that journey has led you
today and what that looks like.
Rowland Smith (19:11):
Yeah, that's hard to answer, but I am still on it
.
At 61, fairly new grandchildentering a new season of life, I
am trying to transition my ownleadership into a different type
(19:34):
of posture or a different typeof voice.
In the past I have been verymuch been a get it done, do or
dream it up, make it happen kindof person and very
entrepreneurial, love risk,medium risk and and I think that
(20:00):
I am trying to shift to havingmore of a voice to what I have
observed, rightly or wrongly.
You know it's not that I knoweverything but to be there in
community with younger leaders.
That's why I love teaching tojust say, well, here's what I've
(20:22):
observed or here's what I seehappening.
Here's my addition to theconversation or the co-learning
that we're doing.
Brian Sanders, who startedTampa Underground and is a great
thought leader, good friend, hewrote a little book on the
(20:42):
seasons of life, the six seasonsof life, and there's a lot of
books like that that are outthere, but I loved his framing
and his terminology.
And coming out of COVID Igrabbed on to this phase that he
calls the mystic and that wouldbe some of us call it a sage or
(21:09):
not that it's the smartestperson in the room, that it's
the person that's lived morelife, it's the grandfather in
the village posture.
And so I did some leadershipcoaching during COVID myself and
it was a great time because Iwas feeling the weight of
(21:31):
everything.
The coffee shop we sold itduring COVID and I was like this
is a good time to do it.
So I've got a friend who's aleadership coach and went
through a Berkman assessmentagain and talked through a bunch
of things.
So my journey has.
(21:51):
I'm glad that I did thatbecause I think it put me in a
healthy spot to have anintentional shift of what I do.
And so, even with being thenational director for Forge,
that title assumes that I runeverything, but I don't.
I basically support a team thatdoes everything.
So I've got a bunch of youngfolks under me women and men
(22:14):
that they're the ones that runForge and I just provide a
compass and a visionary voicefor it.
So that's what I'm trying toshift into, and at 61, it's like
I want to work till I'm maybe75.
So how do I set myself up to bethe most impactful?
Ruth Lorensson (22:39):
Thanks for that, rowland.
How do you think that we are inthis?
It feels like we're in a verypivotal time for the church
right now and I'm very gratefulfor leaders like you in that
stage that you're actually at,because there's a contribution
(22:59):
that you can only bring, havinggone through your journey, to
what God is doing now within thechurch.
And obviously I'm also awarethat that's just a again a
sweeping statement, because I'msure God's doing multiple things
in the church and I'm cautiousof making statements like that.
However, I do think that thereis this sense among a lot of
(23:23):
people right now that there isGod is doing something new.
We feel like there wassomething that happened in COVID
.
There was something thatshifted.
Maybe it sped up time orsomething, but it, or maybe it
put a pressure on things that ora spotlight on things that were
already there and we saw themmore clearly.
(23:45):
So I think that there are thereare people on a bit of a
pilgrimage right now.
Some are pastors, some arepeople who've cared deeply for
Big C Church.
Some people are, you know, havebeen through this, through
their own journey for a longtime.
I think the sense that I'mgetting from the conversations
(24:05):
I'm having with people is thatthey are, they want to do, they
know that there's a brokennessto what we currently have and
not obviously.
There's good things in the mix,actually, and there's a pull
from God's spirit to journeytowards something new, but they
(24:29):
don't know.
They don't know what it lookslike and there's a caution about
going towards it.
There's a caution about tryingto come up with some new, cool
version of fresh expression.
And I'm speaking from a placewhere you know I was in England
during kind of the emergingchurch stuff.
I did nightclub church and cafechurch.
(24:51):
We did all of these differentexpressions and there was some
really amazing and they weremission driven because we just
felt like people, those peoplearen't going to come to.
The common C model isn't goingto hit those people.
So there were these freshexpressions that went out in my
time in England in that time andI'm sure, like with plenty of
(25:13):
others around the world.
But I just I'm curious aboutwhere we're at right now like
with with expression of what'snew, because I think there is a
little bit of hesitancy ofactually we don't want to just
like we've got to get to thisroot system somehow, because I
think some of the stuff thatI've done in in that emerging
(25:35):
church timeframe was great andit was missional, but it didn't
get to some of the rottingaspects of our structure.
That that I think there's athere's an appetite in people to
say how can we lose that?
Not like lose the whole thing,but how can we love the body of
(25:55):
Christ, but how can we lose someof that and then embrace what's
new?
Rowland Smith (26:00):
Yeah, I mean, I understand what you're exactly,
what you're saying.
Yeah, a lot of thoughts aroundthat.
I mean one, one thing I wouldsay is I?
Well, the first thing I want tosay is Jesus's church isn't
going anywhere.
So so the the messages of thesky is falling, christianity is
(26:25):
going away in America, kind ofthing.
I don't worry about Jesus'schurch, it's fine.
You know.
Now, I do think when we get,when we get overly focused on
methodology, when, when we losecontextualization if that makes
(26:47):
sense, I can talk through that alittle more and I think we get
into trouble.
Because I do think, I do thinkat our core, I do think we are a
called missionary people and so, obviously, someone that
(27:08):
teaches Missiology, I'm gonnasay that.
But I could spend a couple ofhours and we could talk about
the thread of mission throughoutScripture and the way God has
continuously called peopleforward in his mission to
participate in what he wants todo, whether that's, you see that
, in what we call the OldTestament or the New Testament,
(27:33):
and we obviously we focus onMatthew 28,.
But there are these callings tous John 20, 21,.
Jesus appears to his disciplesin a room with a locked door.
Ironically, good metaphor therefor the church and says it's
like he's saying, no, unlock thedoor, as the Father sent me, so
(27:54):
I send you.
That word sent is this wordmission apostolous?
And so we are, at our core,supposed to be this
participating people with God,constantly contextualizing and
being sent out.
You know, and that's, when Isay contextualizing I mean what
(28:14):
does your neighborhood look like?
What does your workplace looklike?
If you're a pastor of a church,what does the neighborhood
around your church look like?
And how are you contextualizingwhat you do to be good news to
your city and your neighborhoodand to those people?
And I think it's in those kindof postures that then we say, oh
(28:39):
, we're not getting called to anew thing, we're getting called
to remember the thing that we'vebeen given, which is this
missionary calling.
And so a lot of work that I dowith prevailing churches that
are kind of feeling the pains ofCOVID and people didn't come
(29:03):
back or giving down or whateverit is.
It's like, well, it's not like,hey, let me show you all the
new micro church stuff or freshexpression stuff.
You can do it's.
I mean, maybe they do some ofthat, maybe they don't, but it's
.
Let's remember who your churchwas called to be and how do we
(29:26):
disciple people from the pew tothe pavement?
How do we help them see thatthey are everyday missionaries
too?
And there's an energy in that.
That happens because peoplefeel like they're participating
not in what the senior pastorand the elders came up with as a
vision, but they'reparticipating in the story of
(29:46):
God.
And things do happen that allof a sudden, I mean I've got
videos and testimonies of peoplethat are just like I started
loving my neighbors and makingcookies for people and man the
faith conversations I've startedhaving.
You know, those kinds of things.
If you can get 200 people doingthat, you forget about metrics
(30:10):
of growth.
It's just like because thekingdom is movement, it's
movemental, you know.
So I don't really see it as new.
I see it as remembering who weare, you know the core of who we
are.
And maybe how do we return tothat?
And sure, let's experiment withmethods, let's experiment with
(30:34):
I love fresh expressions, I lovethe micro church movement.
I'm involved in all those indifferent ways, but I mean, I'm
part of a church of 800 withkids, and we're extremely
missional, you know.
And so there are ways to do it.
Kirk Romberg (30:53):
I love, Roland, that idea again of not so much
moving towards something new asmuch as returning to something
old and remembering and isn'tthat a word that we see
continually throughout scripture?
I mean, there's some repetitionsthat we see Old Testament and
(31:14):
new, and one of them is fear not, and another one is remember,
remember who you are, and thatthere's something that resonates
deeply with them.
And yet, at the same time I knowthis from my own journey, I
know this from conversationswith others and I also observe
it there's a lot of layeringthat I think cultural layering,
(31:38):
historical layering,denominational layering that
just kind of gets stacked on topof what you're describing is at
the core of being a sent peopleand the remembering can start
breaking through those layers.
But it can be slow, it can bepainful, there's maybe even some
(31:59):
inner resistance when I startthinking about the costs
involved in some of that,whether that's with friends or
finances or job or position ortitles, and when those things
start to get weighed, it seemslike it can be easy then to
stuff the memory of who we arebecause there's too much at cost
(32:25):
.
And I'm wondering if you canspeak to that for a second.
What would you say to thepastor, or even to the person,
the spiritual leader or a Christfollower who cares deeply about
the bigger sea and who feelsthat sense of for lack of a
better word clash between thebubbling up of remembering and
(32:49):
the layering of culturalexpression and the resistance
there.
And what word of encouragementmight you give to someone who's
in a space like that?
Rowland Smith (32:59):
Yeah, I mean I'm seeing this more and more and
see it all the time, especiallywith pastors that are in
denominational structures, andwe all are kind of seeing
denominations break apart indifferent ways, things coming to
the surface that are causingpain in different ways, and I do
(33:24):
think there's a huge cost tomany pastors that want to get
back to the business of what Godcalled them to do.
That's the way I sense it.
They have gotten tired of 20hours of sermon prep, trying to
(33:44):
grow an organization, keepeverybody happy, doing all the
HR and hiring kind of stuff,budgets and all the things that
really running a companyrequires a view, and then
remembering, oh, when I was 20something or 30 something or
(34:04):
whatever, god called me to takegood news to people that are
broken and lost and fighting thecultural battles of their own
life.
And so those pastors do have acost question because oftentimes
(34:26):
letting go of what they've kindof been caught in is gonna
require something, and usuallyit's financial, sometimes it's
going to a thinking about theirlife by vocationally or really
(34:47):
my friend Brad Briscoe talksabout co-vocational calling and
so your work and your ministryor leading in a church work
together and they always worktogether.
So you're not working so thatyou can do church.
You're actually living aministerial life and part of it
(35:08):
is incarnational in thecommunity and so a lot of times
there's questions like that andthat's really difficult.
It's like, am I gonna go doreal estate and insurance and
then also kind of pastor, asmall community Bye, if you, if
someone can get to the otherside of that I have seen more
(35:30):
often than not there's justincredible freedom.
It's like a weight off of theirshoulders and it's like this is
what I got into ministry for.
I'm able to do.
You know what I got intoministry for and I and I know I
know several people goingthrough that, even someone that
you know, kirk.
You know who just who had toask those hard questions and
(35:54):
Gave back their building to adenomination, and so now they're
in their meeting in a coffeeshop and they have a little bit
of money to you know for arunway to get the church going,
started and stuff.
But the future is not Certain,you know the structure is not
certain and so but they are freefrom those confines, you know.
(36:19):
So I Don't have an easy answer,but but I totally understand
Pastors that that are reallywrestling with that.
Ruth Lorensson (36:30):
Thanks, roland.
I think that's so such helpfulVision and advice and Wisdom for
people in that's.
In that situation, I'm curiousalso about there's.
There are, you know there's?
There's a, there's adisplacement of a lot of people
right now, and again I thinkfrom covert that I mean there
(36:53):
was already a displacementbefore covert, but that has like
propelled that.
I think it.
What is it that 40 millionpeople have left the US
evangelical church over the last20 years, and I'm sure that I
mean that's 20 years, so it'snot a, a short amount of time,
but it that's a lot when youthink about him, if you do the
math.
And Obviously some of those,some of those will have found
(37:18):
different expressions, butthere's possibly quite a lot of
people who find themselvesdisplaced and you know they,
they are on a journey towardsTrying to figure out how they
live their lives FollowingChrist.
But there's a distanciation nowwith with the evangelical
(37:42):
church at least, and, and youknow I would imagine there's
there's dealing with loss,change, isolation, is there any?
I mean it again, it's.
It's very difficult to knowwhat to say, but I'm as a sage,
is there an encouragement youcould bring to to people on that
journey right now?
Rowland Smith (38:01):
Well, thanks for the title.
You know what I think of iswhat a great and this kind of
comes from my entrepreneurialBet or spirit, you know is what
an opportunity we have right now.
So, yes, there aremethodologies of the church that
(38:23):
are kind of crumbling beforeour eyes.
Again, the church is not introuble, the methodology is in
trouble.
Jesus's church is great, youknow, there are a lot of people
kind of wandering and andthere's a lot of sifting going
on.
I mean, my wife and I we held a,a deconstruction group in our
(38:47):
living room for a while lastyear and for better,
year-and-a-half, and it wasreally interesting.
A lot of these were 20somethings, 30 somethings, to
kind of hear why they weren'tcomfortable with the church or
you know, and when I say thechurch in that I'm talking about
kind of brick-and-mortarTraditional American church, and
(39:13):
so there's a lot of that kindof sifting where they're not
losing their faith and they,they're not atheists, they just
don't like the church, you knowinstitution and they're trying
to figure out so how do I have afaith journey?
To me that is a hugeopportunity and a lot, of, a lot
(39:35):
of leaders have kind of heard,they've kind of seen, different
versions of red and blue ocean,kind of talking, where, you know
, my friend Alan Hirsch I justkind of my mentor, you know he
talks about Two things.
He he says if you want to seethe future of the church in
(39:56):
America, look at Europe.
And he said that years andyears ago and and I think COVID
has accelerated us toward that.
So some of the big buildings,that kind of thing or so, are
going to be echo chambers.
Unfortunately they're not asbeautiful as cathedrals in
Europe, so we're not going tovisit them.
You know, look at thearchitecture and then you have
(40:18):
this idea of red and blue ocean.
Where, you know, maybe we don'thave a firm statistic on this,
but you know, I would say itwould be generous to say that
25% of of American population iseven Attracted to a theater
(40:40):
style Church service.
They would even be attractedsitting there where one person
preaches from a stage andthere's a band and all the
cultural nuances of that, and alot of the people that are
attracted to that are alreadyChristians.
And it's even smaller inAustralia.
(41:04):
So they did, they did a thingin Australia and it was like 2%
of the population was evenattracted to a Kind of brick and
mortar in a box, think of atheater kind of set up.
And so if that's the case, if25% is America, or let's just
let's even say 40% I don't thinkit's that high, but let's say
(41:25):
40% of the population, thatmeans 60% of the population on
the other side of that pie Isnot attracted to that.
Yet we have conferences andseminaries and stuff that are
teaching young planters to goplant these little boxes that
look exactly like that andbecome CEOs.
(41:46):
Now, as an entrepreneur, if Iwant to be successful, let's
just think strategically.
Why would I focus on the 40%model, where everyone is going?
That's why that's red ocean,that's where sharks are all
eating on the same, they'refeeding on the same thing, and
it's just red, it's just bloody.
The blue ocean, it's fairlyclear, and that's where things
(42:11):
like that I mean, that's the,that's the good impetus behind
things like fresh expressions,the things you're involved with,
ruth, those kinds of things.
They're, they're out hereexperimenting with things that
are catching People that are notattracted to that.
Now, you know, like you said, ifthey're focused just on the
(42:35):
methodology, that's not enough,that's not deep enough.
There are no roots to that.
You use the word roots, and soI do think we still have to have
this missional call as God'speople.
But then that's when thoseexperimentations and it may be a
brick and mortar church thatmeets Once a month and three
(42:56):
weeks a month.
Your people are in home groupson mission, you know.
I know churches that arethey're doing different versions
of that, and so my push tochurch planters is always Don't
just haul off and go find amiddle school and buy chairs and
smoke machines and projectorsand stuff is like think about
(43:18):
the blue ocean and plant missionfirst and let ecclesiology
follow the contextual questionsthat you ask about mission.
So I'm called to this place,this people.
What is it that this peopleneed as good news?
Now, let's plant anecclesiology that fits that or
(43:41):
helps to answer that.
Kirk Romberg (43:42):
I Love that, that contrast, because what I think I
hear you saying is it's not andI don't mean to be cliche, I've
heard this before.
You have to.
So, as Ruth, it's not that thechurch has a mission, is that
the mission has a church, andthat church needs to be
different to suit the mission,not in the other way around.
(44:04):
And and so it's a completereversal of thinking.
And, as as we move towardsclosing, I I'm curious If you
could share a little bit aboutPando collective here in
Colorado or forge in AmericaEither one or both as well as
(44:27):
the, your most recent book,because what I'm hoping to do is
leave the listeners with withsome kind of trail to follow.
Somebody might be listening tothis and thinking I would like
to take some steps toremembering and then expressing
that remembrance as a sent one,and I've had multiple
(44:50):
conversations, and so has Ruth,with individuals who know they
can't go back to one thing, butthey don't know the way forward,
and what would it look like forthem to, to explore, like, how
can they connect with you orPando or forge?
Not that we're saying this isthe way, but it certainly is a
(45:12):
different way and a Rememberingway back to our roots of sent
ones, if you can.
Rowland Smith (45:24):
Sure, yeah, yeah, pando came out of just a
realization that you knowapostolicky type people and
pastors.
They need community.
They're often walking alone andsome people we keep saying
(45:44):
pando and some people areprobably like what's there?
Are they saying panda?
Or like what?
What does that mean?
So pando is real, quickly isthis Latin word that means I
spread out, and the largestliving organism on earth, which
is about six hours west of us inUtah.
(46:05):
It's called pando the clone, orpando the trembling giant, and
it's an aspen grove, and thoseof us that live in Colorado we
understand that aspen's don'tspread out by dropping you know,
they don't have pine cones andall that kind of stuff Seeds.
They spread their roots outunderground and then new things
(46:25):
pop up.
And even as trees are dying off, new things are kind of coming
up through the soil.
And so pando is this grove of55,000 aspen trees, 106 acres.
This is a great time of year togo see it because they're
everything starting to change uphere in the mountains.
(46:46):
But it's amazing becausethey've DNA tested a lot of
these trees and they're the sametree.
So it's a clone, it's oneorganism.
It looks like 55,000 treesabove ground, but it's all.
It's got one root systemunderground, so it's a.
To us it's like oh, what aperfect metaphor, not only
(47:06):
because we're in Colorado, butit's just a perfect metaphor for
the church and the kingdom andthe way that we want to see
things.
You know, and so and there's alot of cool things about that
metaphor, where the older treeshelp feed the newer trees and
you know as they're dying, andso there's, there's a lot of
(47:27):
great metaphors in there.
So pando collective is inColorado Springs and there's
also kind of a tribe, I wouldsay, up in Denver that has
started Jeremy and Monicachambers and are kind of
curating that.
Jeremy and Monica are also onour national team for Forge and
(47:48):
so we say the pando collectiveis a network of missional
practitioners and it's poweredby Forge.
That's kind of how we speak.
So rather than having ForgeColorado, we have the pando
collective, but it's very muchhas.
Forge is kind of a foundational.
You know, those are the paversunderneath us.
(48:12):
Anyone could be part of pandoand we welcome anyone to come
into the conversation.
Denver has meetings, coloradohas meetings.
Sometimes we'll do trainings.
We're gonna have Mike Frosthere in November I'm sorry in
January and you know.
So we'll do a big pandogathering.
(48:32):
So sometimes we'll do trainingsor cohorts or those kinds of
things.
Pando was launched out of abrick and mortar church.
The one I'm at, kind of like atugboat to pull our church,
continue pulling it to bemissional.
And as we disciple people andthey say, hey, I have an idea,
(48:53):
that's our R&D department,that's where we send them to
incubate ideas fund.
We can even fund them withKingdom grants like get them
started.
So there's a lot of networkskind of like this or different
forms of it around the country.
But that's what pandocollective is and the the
(49:14):
pandocolectivecom is the website.
There's a couple of videos onthere that explain what it is
and there's a connection form.
So love, love to have youconnect.
Forge America is a largernational missional organization.
It's part of a worldwideorganization.
We actually do more structuredresourcing and coaching and
(49:39):
training and we do invite a lotof churches and pastors into
that community to just helpnavigate some of these things so
they don't feel alone and wehave different levels of that
and there's a connection form onthere and then.
I have a personal website, whichI should be doing more blogging
(50:03):
and stuff, but I don't.
But it's still the connectionform, still active, and it's
info at Roland Smithnet.
So, yeah, I'd love to connectwith people.
I'd love to grab some calls,love to help, resource and point
people where they need to go.
(50:24):
So for where I think they needto go.
Early last year or the end ofthe year before, we released Red
Skies Ten essentialconversations for the future of
the church and I mean that waskind of funny because I had
listed all of these things thatneed to be addressed.
You know that I felt likeneeded to be addressed in the
(50:47):
church and it's like, oh my gosh, I'm either going to be the
most arrogant writer that hasever put out a book or it's
going to take me 20 years towrite this thing.
And so what I did?
Because you know I've beenblessed to network with some
great people, a lot of people,voices that people know, and so
(51:09):
I invited other authors intothis and they each took a
chapter and wrote on.
You know, the question was whatdoes the church need to pay
attention to for the next 20years in order to be good news?
That was the thesis questiongiven to every one of them, and
so then they submitted a chapterand we published it through a
(51:31):
hundred movements publishing,which is Alan Hirsch's part of
one of Alan Hirsch's network,and it's a fantastic book.
And you, you get littlesnippets from different people,
you know that are all indifferent contexts.
You know women and men, peopleof color, and kind of talking
(51:52):
about the future of the churchand the things we need to pay
attention to.
So it's called Red Skies andit's also, you know, on Amazon.
It's a good way to get it.
Ruth Lorensson (52:01):
That's awesome, that sounds amazing, and just
want to encourage our listenersto you know, pick up those books
.
I think that they can be reallyuseful.
Roland, thank you so much wegot.
I don't know how to thank youenough.
It feels like this conversationhas been so rich, like I mean.
I feel like we could carry onchatting for hours because of
(52:23):
what you, what you're bringingto the table, is so rich, so
wise.
We really appreciate you.
We're so excited that you're inColorado too, so you'll be
seeing us, whether you like itor not.
Rowland Smith (52:35):
Well, I love Fort Collins so I'll make a trip up
and I've spent some timetogether and love to see you
again, kirk, and thanks forhaving me.
It's been.
I mean, I love talking aboutthis stuff, but you know, I love
dreaming with other peopleabout how we can, you know, how
we can be a community of churchleaders together and not, you
(52:57):
know, and not just sit in ourdepression and brokenness and
what am I going to do, you know,in the future.
So really encourage any of yourlisteners.
Don't, don't walk in stuffalone.
Get a coach, get a community,something you know.
Ruth Lorensson (53:10):
Yeah, that's absolutely right and that's
that's the whole emphasis ofthis podcast is to is to be real
, but to be hopeful.
Thanks for listening to theReconstructing Pastors podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode andyou'd like to help support the
(53:32):
podcast, please share it withothers, post about it on social
media or leave a rating andreview.
Kirk Romberg (53:40):
And if you're interested in leaning into this
conversation further, we'd lovefor you to be a part of a
special online communitycoaching space called
Reconstructing Pastors cohort.
For details, visit our websiteat bridge and rhinocom.
See you at the next episode.
You're listening to the Reconstructing Pastors
podcast.
I'm Ruth Lawrenson.
Kirk Romberg (00:11):
And I'm Kirk Romberg.
We're recovering pastorstalking about what it looks like
to make sense of our callingand community expression on the
other side of deconstruction.
Ruth Lorensson (00:22):
Our hope is to create a safe space to explore
the bigger picture of the church, both the present state of the
American evangelical church andwhat the future may hold for
those who are searching for abetter way.
Kirk Romberg (00:35):
We're really glad you're here.
Let's get started.
Well, hey, ruth, I am excitedabout our guest today, roland
Smith.
I'll tell you how we gotconnected really quickly.
I was, for some reason, I wokeup with some thoughts early in
the morning and I was lying inbed surfing the internet for
(00:58):
discovering whether or not Forgehad an expression in America.
And I found Forge America.
And then I clicked a little bitmore and is there something in
Colorado?
And I found Pando Collective.
And I found Roland Smith.
I sent an email hey, would loveto grab some coffee.
And I was super excited to getan email very quickly back.
(01:21):
And so Roland and I grabbedcoffee several months ago.
I thoroughly enjoyed ourconversation and wanted to bring
that conversation a little bitinto this space.
So, for our listeners, if youdon't know Roland Smith, roland
Smith is the National Directorfor Forge America, also the
director for Pando Collective.
He's an adjunct professor atFuller Seminary.
(01:44):
He has a master's program thathe leads on Missiology, working
on a doctoral program as well,and I just learned a few minutes
ago that he is also working ona partnership with Denver
Seminary on a degree inMissiology.
So I feel super pumped aboutthat and in addition to that I
don't know where he has the timehe also is a missional pastor
(02:07):
of the church in ColoradoSprings, helping, if I
understand right and maybe,roland, you can correct me a
little bit later on lead thechurch through transitioning
from to a new expression intheir community, and I feel
excited about hearing a littlebit about that.
And if you as if that's notenough, there's also some
writing that you've been doingand we'd love to hear about your
(02:28):
book.
So welcome, roland Smith.
We're super glad to have youtoday.
Rowland Smith (02:34):
Well, thanks, kurt, it was fantastic to
connect with you.
After that list of things, Ifeel like I need an intervention
, probably to slow down, butthat is my.
I mean for people that are into, you know, tests and that kind
of stuff.
I'm a definite like seven withan eight wing enneagram, high
(02:58):
apostolic.
You know I love to start thingsand and have a lot of fun doing
new things.
So I don't know if it's a goodthing or if it's an illness, but
I do have a lot of irons in thefire.
I try to try to keep a lot ofirons on the fire.
Ruth Lorensson (03:13):
Well, it's so good to have you here, roland.
We really appreciate your timeand we know that there's a lot
of alignment with what we'retalking about in this podcast.
And I think one of the firstthings I'd love to hear from you
a little bit is that I knowthat from from your journey in
ministry has has reallyencountered this big transition
(03:34):
from, you know, leading in muchmore traditional institutional
settings to less traditionalexperimental settings, and could
you tell us a little bit aboutthat?
I mean, I know that's a giantquestion, but a little bit about
that transition of of ministry,like where you've come from,
where you are now.
Rowland Smith (03:55):
Sure, yeah, and I'll.
I mean it's.
It is a.
It is a large question becauseit has to do with my, I guess,
kind of my path and my, my story, and so I'm going to try to do
this really fast.
Part of my what I'll term mymissional posture, or my
interest in church outside thewalls or, you know, viewing
(04:19):
church differently, comes fromnot growing up in church, and so
I don't.
I came into Christian faith inmy 20s with, I think, without a
lot of institutional memory or,you know, some might say,
baggage.
In different ways I didn't havethings as much to unlearn and I
(04:41):
was more comfortable with kindof rough around the edges people
.
But my music backgrounds openeddoors for me as a worship
leader into the church once Icame to faith.
So I came off tour with bigconcert tours and stuff and and
do all about lights and sound,you know rock music and all this
(05:03):
kind of stuff.
And so that was when passionyou know Chris Homlin was taking
off.
He was a young kid met Redmanand those guys, and so I was.
I was sought after, you know,as as a worship leader because I
had all this knowledge aboutcontemporary worship.
So I found my entree intoinstitutional church and the
(05:26):
productions, kind of settings,of the stage that we're kind of
familiar with in churches todayand embraced that as, oh, this
must be Christianity and I'm anew Christian.
And so I started down that pathand, you know, over time I read
(05:49):
more, went seminary, studiedmore.
Missiology was kind of I didn'tknow it at that time but that
was kind of my heartbeat Readsome books by now friends of
mine, like Alan Hirsch and MikeFrost and some others, that kind
of wrecked my view of you knowmaybe, how the church was being
(06:13):
built, the methods of the churchand but continued in that, that
direction in worship.
And then I fast forward likeseveral, several years, you know
a couple of decades, and mywife and I actually made a
(06:35):
decision to kind of leave thatsetting, to go experiment more.
We were in Colorado Springs andleft the institutional setting
or prevailing church model opento and started a coffee shop,
planted a missional community inthe coffee shop and, and that
(06:59):
was really I was not going to goback into a prevailing church
model.
I was determined to stay out onthe edges of ecclesiology and I
was continuing my own studies,working on my doctorate and
stuff at Fuller while I wasdoing this.
So all of it kind of wouldweave together really well.
(07:21):
The practice part and thelearning part came together
really well.
And I met a church, some guys ata church in Colorado Springs
who had lost their worshipleader and they just wanted to
hire me as a consultant to helpthem hire a new worship leader.
I had a new coffee shop, wasn'tpaying very much, and so I said
(07:45):
, sure, I'll take a consultinggig.
I'm not doing anything onSunday mornings anymore.
And as I was talking missionalkind of language around the
hallways of their place, theysaid, oh, that's the language
we've been looking for.
And so I found I really feltlike God was saying you know
(08:07):
this, you know, I mean thissounds a little, you know,
churchy, but like this is mychurch, you know.
So don't critique it but helpit.
And I had experience in that.
That had a heart for practiceoutside the church and
discipling people to be sent,you know, to be everyday
(08:29):
missionaries.
And so I really felt like Godwas saying I want you to live
with the foot in both worlds,and so I have actually worked
through my own kind of you knowthe emotions, the thinking of
that, the leadership of that,like how, how I do that and and
(08:52):
very comfortable now being inthat position as kind of like
I'm very comfortable being in anR&D department for the church,
but I'm also I also see thechurch as a beautiful thing,
obviously with a lot of flawsand, I would say, things that
pastors should look at andquestion.
(09:13):
Why do we do that?
Ruth Lorensson (09:17):
you know, and if there's a good reason for it.
Rowland Smith (09:20):
There's a and there's a good reason for it.
So that's been.
That's the quick part of myjourney.
There's a lot of gaps thatcould be filled in, but but I
feel, at 61, I feel like my lifeexperiences, my experience in
ecclesiology and then my heartfor what I would say missional
(09:42):
posturing, has really cometogether in place that I love.
Kirk Romberg (09:48):
So yeah well, thank you for sharing that,
roland.
I just found myself enteringinto your story and and hearing
some, some similar things andalso some hopes that it ignites
in me as well.
So thank you, as you weresharing.
I thought you know that thatwas a.
(10:09):
That was a very brief overviewof what sounds like quite a
journey, and, of course,journeys like that when we are
involved in one type ofcommunity or structure and we
make a transition into somethingnew or different, a lot of that
journey involves people andrelationships, and was that a
(10:31):
smooth journey?
Was that celebrated by thepeople around you?
Did you feel well understood orwhat was that like for you?
Rowland Smith (10:38):
Oh, kirk, I am the, I am the borer under the
saddle of many pastors in thatjourney and even today.
But I try to do that gracefullyand not be, you know, I
wouldn't call myself, you know,necessarily prophetic, but a lot
(11:01):
of times the things that wetalk about in Forge America, the
things that I train and teachand do, can feel very kind of
edgy, prophetic, irritating, youknow, to existing systems.
So if there's a system thatfeels comfortable with what it's
(11:23):
doing, I can, you know, evenunintentionally, you know, be a
bobber, a little bit of a bobber, to that, even when I don't
mean to, because the, you know,the pathway or the goals or
where we want to get to is justvery different.
Ruth Lorensson (11:44):
So you talked about it being an emotional
journey as well.
I'm just curious about how,like I've spoken to multiple
people you know I'm reaching outto different people as the
weeks go on and even around theglobe, of people who've made
those similar transitions.
You know that they've come froman institutional leadership and
(12:07):
given their lives to it,because I think anyone in,
usually anyone in pastoralministry they throw that lot
because it starts at least withthis strong calling and passion
for the church, right.
And then I've spoken to somepeople who've come out of that
and the language that they useis that even like three, four,
five years on, it's still veryimpactful for them, like the
(12:31):
transition and the making senseof that.
You know the making sense ofthrowing yourself into something
and then thinking, oh, hang ona minute, like I've got to
readjust and how do we even Imake sense of my calling.
I think that's one thing that webrought up in our last episode
was just because you leave aninstitution or more of a
(12:53):
traditional model maybe doesn'tmean to say you're leaving the
ministry.
I'm just curious, like if youcould speak into that a little
bit, if you've had some similarexperience, or what would you
say to people who are journeyingthat long journey of wrestling
with calling and emotions.
And am I going crazy?
(13:14):
And is it okay?
And rejection and missing, tobe a misunderstood, possibly.
I'm wondering what you've gotto say about that.
Rowland Smith (13:24):
Yeah, yeah, a couple of, couple of thoughts.
I mean.
First, I think that thatjourney I like to use the word
journey I think oftentimes wetry to get rid of the journey or
we try to not take the journeyand find a shortcut, you know,
so we do that through, you knowleadership books or you know
(13:48):
whatever it is, and but I thinkthe journey, you know, at
someone my age now I'm lookingback I think the journey is very
much needed and I don't anymorethink there's an arrival point,
like there's a place out therewhere I'm gonna arrive and have
(14:09):
it figured out, and so I'mtaking a journey to the arrival
point.
I think the journey this soundsa little mystical or whatever,
but the journey is the thing.
That is the thing.
That's walking with Jesus,that's living with God, that's
figuring out your calling andall of that is that is the
(14:31):
process, that is the thing.
So that's one.
So the answer is yes, you'reokay.
Yes, you should do all thisstuff, yes, you should have
guides and community and allthose kinds of things.
But I think we all go throughthe struggles.
Ruth Lorensson (14:47):
Am.
Rowland Smith (14:48):
I doing what I'm supposed to be doing, or I feel
depressed, or I have anxiety orwhatever it is, and it's just
part of it.
We just shouldn't do it alone.
The other thought I was having,as you were asking, that is, I
think, the.
You know, I don't wanna soundoverly critical, but I think
(15:08):
that this service that we havedone to pastors in particular
and people in ministry is thelens at which we have had them
look at their calling and so andI try to talk to my students
about this, because a lot oftimes they're getting their
(15:29):
masters, they're wanting to leada church or they're going to
prayer church ministry orsomething, and the calling, I
would argue, is not leading achurch or the calling is not the
prayer church ministry.
The calling is to know God andthe calling is to walk with God.
And when we give them a lens, aworldly lens, to look through,
(15:53):
of leading a church, a lot oftimes the leadership that they
learn, all of the things thatthey form themselves with, turns
them into a CEO.
In other words, the metrics ofthe world, the metrics of
business, success, growingthings, that becomes the driving
(16:14):
force in their leadership andtheir calling.
And so they start measuringtheir calling with metrics of
the world.
Now, if you and Alan Roxboroughis a genius at talking about
this stuff and JR Woodward justput out a book, the Scandal of
(16:34):
Leadership, where he cites a lotof Alan's work but if you look
at it through a lens of thekingdom, in other words, the
telos of your leadership, is thekingdom not growing something?
Then all of a sudden themetrics change.
The metrics are low, right, themetrics are servant building,
(16:59):
others up, humility, all thesekinds of things, and I do think
I don't have all the answers,but I do think that this is one
thing we're seeing in the churchtoday with when we talk about
like celebrity pastors and thatkind of thing, we're seeing a
misbalanced telos of leadershipwhere there are metrics of the
(17:23):
world or metrics of the kingdom,and so a lot of times when I
talk to pastors and I'm not acoach like you guys are, but I
often that's what I'm trying topivot back to is like are you
caught up measuring the wrongthing?
Is that why you're so depressedabout what's going on in your
(17:46):
church, or whatever?
Kirk Romberg (17:48):
Yeah, I love hearing that and thank you for
giving us some additionallanguage.
I love the imagery of the telosbecause I think that and I'll
speak for myself I think it canbe easy, when I don't have any
other metric and the other lensthrough which to look at my
calling to confuse kingdom forempire, and I think what I have
(18:13):
been doing myself for the last Xnumber of decades is embracing
the values of empire, whichactually are competing values
with those of the kingdom, sothat you have given me some
really good language to hold onto.
I appreciate that.
But it leads me to anotherquestion is as you have been
(18:34):
going down this journey and Ithank you for A saying that it's
a journey, and B saying youdon't have all the answers, and
for C saying you're stillgetting there and there's not a
destination.
It's the journey with God andis walking with him.
So thank you as you do that.
Where are you on that journeyright now?
(18:55):
Where has your walk with Godled you to this juncture?
You're involved in severalthings, but I would love just to
hear you speak your heart withwhere that journey has led you
today and what that looks like.
Rowland Smith (19:11):
Yeah, that's hard to answer, but I am still on it
.
At 61, fairly new grandchildentering a new season of life, I
am trying to transition my ownleadership into a different type
(19:34):
of posture or a different typeof voice.
In the past I have been verymuch been a get it done, do or
dream it up, make it happen kindof person and very
entrepreneurial, love risk,medium risk and and I think that
(20:00):
I am trying to shift to havingmore of a voice to what I have
observed, rightly or wrongly.
You know it's not that I knoweverything but to be there in
community with younger leaders.
That's why I love teaching tojust say, well, here's what I've
(20:22):
observed or here's what I seehappening.
Here's my addition to theconversation or the co-learning
that we're doing.
Brian Sanders, who startedTampa Underground and is a great
thought leader, good friend, hewrote a little book on the
(20:42):
seasons of life, the six seasonsof life, and there's a lot of
books like that that are outthere, but I loved his framing
and his terminology.
And coming out of COVID Igrabbed on to this phase that he
calls the mystic and that wouldbe some of us call it a sage or
(21:09):
not that it's the smartestperson in the room, that it's
the person that's lived morelife, it's the grandfather in
the village posture.
And so I did some leadershipcoaching during COVID myself and
it was a great time because Iwas feeling the weight of
(21:31):
everything.
The coffee shop we sold itduring COVID and I was like this
is a good time to do it.
So I've got a friend who's aleadership coach and went
through a Berkman assessmentagain and talked through a bunch
of things.
So my journey has.
(21:51):
I'm glad that I did thatbecause I think it put me in a
healthy spot to have anintentional shift of what I do.
And so, even with being thenational director for Forge,
that title assumes that I runeverything, but I don't.
I basically support a team thatdoes everything.
So I've got a bunch of youngfolks under me women and men
(22:14):
that they're the ones that runForge and I just provide a
compass and a visionary voicefor it.
So that's what I'm trying toshift into, and at 61, it's like
I want to work till I'm maybe75.
So how do I set myself up to bethe most impactful?
Ruth Lorensson (22:39):
Thanks for that, rowland.
How do you think that we are inthis?
It feels like we're in a verypivotal time for the church
right now and I'm very gratefulfor leaders like you in that
stage that you're actually at,because there's a contribution
(22:59):
that you can only bring, havinggone through your journey, to
what God is doing now within thechurch.
And obviously I'm also awarethat that's just a again a
sweeping statement, because I'msure God's doing multiple things
in the church and I'm cautiousof making statements like that.
However, I do think that thereis this sense among a lot of
(23:23):
people right now that there isGod is doing something new.
We feel like there wassomething that happened in COVID
.
There was something thatshifted.
Maybe it sped up time orsomething, but it, or maybe it
put a pressure on things that ora spotlight on things that were
already there and we saw themmore clearly.
(23:45):
So I think that there are thereare people on a bit of a
pilgrimage right now.
Some are pastors, some arepeople who've cared deeply for
Big C Church.
Some people are, you know, havebeen through this, through
their own journey for a longtime.
I think the sense that I'mgetting from the conversations
(24:05):
I'm having with people is thatthey are, they want to do, they
know that there's a brokennessto what we currently have and
not obviously.
There's good things in the mix,actually, and there's a pull
from God's spirit to journeytowards something new, but they
(24:29):
don't know.
They don't know what it lookslike and there's a caution about
going towards it.
There's a caution about tryingto come up with some new, cool
version of fresh expression.
And I'm speaking from a placewhere you know I was in England
during kind of the emergingchurch stuff.
I did nightclub church and cafechurch.
(24:51):
We did all of these differentexpressions and there was some
really amazing and they weremission driven because we just
felt like people, those peoplearen't going to come to.
The common C model isn't goingto hit those people.
So there were these freshexpressions that went out in my
time in England in that time andI'm sure, like with plenty of
(25:13):
others around the world.
But I just I'm curious aboutwhere we're at right now like
with with expression of what'snew, because I think there is a
little bit of hesitancy ofactually we don't want to just
like we've got to get to thisroot system somehow, because I
think some of the stuff thatI've done in in that emerging
(25:35):
church timeframe was great andit was missional, but it didn't
get to some of the rottingaspects of our structure.
That that I think there's athere's an appetite in people to
say how can we lose that?
Not like lose the whole thing,but how can we love the body of
(25:55):
Christ, but how can we lose someof that and then embrace what's
new?
Rowland Smith (26:00):
Yeah, I mean, I understand what you're exactly,
what you're saying.
Yeah, a lot of thoughts aroundthat.
I mean one, one thing I wouldsay is I?
Well, the first thing I want tosay is Jesus's church isn't
going anywhere.
So so the the messages of thesky is falling, christianity is
(26:25):
going away in America, kind ofthing.
I don't worry about Jesus'schurch, it's fine.
You know.
Now, I do think when we get,when we get overly focused on
methodology, when, when we losecontextualization if that makes
(26:47):
sense, I can talk through that alittle more and I think we get
into trouble.
Because I do think, I do thinkat our core, I do think we are a
called missionary people and so, obviously, someone that
(27:08):
teaches Missiology, I'm gonnasay that.
But I could spend a couple ofhours and we could talk about
the thread of mission throughoutScripture and the way God has
continuously called peopleforward in his mission to
participate in what he wants todo, whether that's, you see that
, in what we call the OldTestament or the New Testament,
(27:33):
and we obviously we focus onMatthew 28,.
But there are these callings tous John 20, 21,.
Jesus appears to his disciplesin a room with a locked door.
Ironically, good metaphor therefor the church and says it's
like he's saying, no, unlock thedoor, as the Father sent me, so
(27:54):
I send you.
That word sent is this wordmission apostolous?
And so we are, at our core,supposed to be this
participating people with God,constantly contextualizing and
being sent out.
You know, and that's, when Isay contextualizing I mean what
(28:14):
does your neighborhood look like?
What does your workplace looklike?
If you're a pastor of a church,what does the neighborhood
around your church look like?
And how are you contextualizingwhat you do to be good news to
your city and your neighborhoodand to those people?
And I think it's in those kindof postures that then we say, oh
(28:39):
, we're not getting called to anew thing, we're getting called
to remember the thing that we'vebeen given, which is this
missionary calling.
And so a lot of work that I dowith prevailing churches that
are kind of feeling the pains ofCOVID and people didn't come
(29:03):
back or giving down or whateverit is.
It's like, well, it's not like,hey, let me show you all the
new micro church stuff or freshexpression stuff.
You can do it's.
I mean, maybe they do some ofthat, maybe they don't, but it's
.
Let's remember who your churchwas called to be and how do we
(29:26):
disciple people from the pew tothe pavement?
How do we help them see thatthey are everyday missionaries
too?
And there's an energy in that.
That happens because peoplefeel like they're participating
not in what the senior pastorand the elders came up with as a
vision, but they'reparticipating in the story of
(29:46):
God.
And things do happen that allof a sudden, I mean I've got
videos and testimonies of peoplethat are just like I started
loving my neighbors and makingcookies for people and man the
faith conversations I've startedhaving.
You know, those kinds of things.
If you can get 200 people doingthat, you forget about metrics
(30:10):
of growth.
It's just like because thekingdom is movement, it's
movemental, you know.
So I don't really see it as new.
I see it as remembering who weare, you know the core of who we
are.
And maybe how do we return tothat?
And sure, let's experiment withmethods, let's experiment with
(30:34):
I love fresh expressions, I lovethe micro church movement.
I'm involved in all those indifferent ways, but I mean, I'm
part of a church of 800 withkids, and we're extremely
missional, you know.
And so there are ways to do it.
Kirk Romberg (30:53):
I love, Roland, that idea again of not so much
moving towards something new asmuch as returning to something
old and remembering and isn'tthat a word that we see
continually throughout scripture?
I mean, there's some repetitionsthat we see Old Testament and
(31:14):
new, and one of them is fear not, and another one is remember,
remember who you are, and thatthere's something that resonates
deeply with them.
And yet, at the same time I knowthis from my own journey, I
know this from conversationswith others and I also observe
it there's a lot of layeringthat I think cultural layering,
(31:38):
historical layering,denominational layering that
just kind of gets stacked on topof what you're describing is at
the core of being a sent peopleand the remembering can start
breaking through those layers.
But it can be slow, it can bepainful, there's maybe even some
(31:59):
inner resistance when I startthinking about the costs
involved in some of that,whether that's with friends or
finances or job or position ortitles, and when those things
start to get weighed, it seemslike it can be easy then to
stuff the memory of who we arebecause there's too much at cost
(32:25):
.
And I'm wondering if you canspeak to that for a second.
What would you say to thepastor, or even to the person,
the spiritual leader or a Christfollower who cares deeply about
the bigger sea and who feelsthat sense of for lack of a
better word clash between thebubbling up of remembering and
(32:49):
the layering of culturalexpression and the resistance
there.
And what word of encouragementmight you give to someone who's
in a space like that?
Rowland Smith (32:59):
Yeah, I mean I'm seeing this more and more and
see it all the time, especiallywith pastors that are in
denominational structures, andwe all are kind of seeing
denominations break apart indifferent ways, things coming to
the surface that are causingpain in different ways, and I do
(33:24):
think there's a huge cost tomany pastors that want to get
back to the business of what Godcalled them to do.
That's the way I sense it.
They have gotten tired of 20hours of sermon prep, trying to
(33:44):
grow an organization, keepeverybody happy, doing all the
HR and hiring kind of stuff,budgets and all the things that
really running a companyrequires a view, and then
remembering, oh, when I was 20something or 30 something or
(34:04):
whatever, god called me to takegood news to people that are
broken and lost and fighting thecultural battles of their own
life.
And so those pastors do have acost question because oftentimes
(34:26):
letting go of what they've kindof been caught in is gonna
require something, and usuallyit's financial, sometimes it's
going to a thinking about theirlife by vocationally or really
(34:47):
my friend Brad Briscoe talksabout co-vocational calling and
so your work and your ministryor leading in a church work
together and they always worktogether.
So you're not working so thatyou can do church.
You're actually living aministerial life and part of it
(35:08):
is incarnational in thecommunity and so a lot of times
there's questions like that andthat's really difficult.
It's like, am I gonna go doreal estate and insurance and
then also kind of pastor, asmall community Bye, if you, if
someone can get to the otherside of that I have seen more
(35:30):
often than not there's justincredible freedom.
It's like a weight off of theirshoulders and it's like this is
what I got into ministry for.
I'm able to do.
You know what I got intoministry for and I and I know I
know several people goingthrough that, even someone that
you know, kirk.
You know who just who had toask those hard questions and
(35:54):
Gave back their building to adenomination, and so now they're
in their meeting in a coffeeshop and they have a little bit
of money to you know for arunway to get the church going,
started and stuff.
But the future is not Certain,you know the structure is not
certain and so but they are freefrom those confines, you know.
(36:19):
So I Don't have an easy answer,but but I totally understand
Pastors that that are reallywrestling with that.
Ruth Lorensson (36:30):
Thanks, roland.
I think that's so such helpfulVision and advice and Wisdom for
people in that's.
In that situation, I'm curiousalso about there's.
There are, you know there's?
There's a, there's adisplacement of a lot of people
right now, and again I thinkfrom covert that I mean there
(36:53):
was already a displacementbefore covert, but that has like
propelled that.
I think it.
What is it that 40 millionpeople have left the US
evangelical church over the last20 years, and I'm sure that I
mean that's 20 years, so it'snot a, a short amount of time,
but it that's a lot when youthink about him, if you do the
math.
And Obviously some of those,some of those will have found
(37:18):
different expressions, butthere's possibly quite a lot of
people who find themselvesdisplaced and you know they,
they are on a journey towardsTrying to figure out how they
live their lives FollowingChrist.
But there's a distanciation nowwith with the evangelical
(37:42):
church at least, and, and youknow I would imagine there's
there's dealing with loss,change, isolation, is there any?
I mean it again, it's.
It's very difficult to knowwhat to say, but I'm as a sage,
is there an encouragement youcould bring to to people on that
journey right now?
Rowland Smith (38:01):
Well, thanks for the title.
You know what I think of iswhat a great and this kind of
comes from my entrepreneurialBet or spirit, you know is what
an opportunity we have right now.
So, yes, there aremethodologies of the church that
(38:23):
are kind of crumbling beforeour eyes.
Again, the church is not introuble, the methodology is in
trouble.
Jesus's church is great, youknow, there are a lot of people
kind of wandering and andthere's a lot of sifting going
on.
I mean, my wife and I we held a,a deconstruction group in our
(38:47):
living room for a while lastyear and for better,
year-and-a-half, and it wasreally interesting.
A lot of these were 20somethings, 30 somethings, to
kind of hear why they weren'tcomfortable with the church or
you know, and when I say thechurch in that I'm talking about
kind of brick-and-mortarTraditional American church, and
(39:13):
so there's a lot of that kindof sifting where they're not
losing their faith and they,they're not atheists, they just
don't like the church, you knowinstitution and they're trying
to figure out so how do I have afaith journey?
To me that is a hugeopportunity and a lot, of, a lot
(39:35):
of leaders have kind of heard,they've kind of seen, different
versions of red and blue ocean,kind of talking, where, you know
, my friend Alan Hirsch I justkind of my mentor, you know he
talks about Two things.
He he says if you want to seethe future of the church in
(39:56):
America, look at Europe.
And he said that years andyears ago and and I think COVID
has accelerated us toward that.
So some of the big buildings,that kind of thing or so, are
going to be echo chambers.
Unfortunately they're not asbeautiful as cathedrals in
Europe, so we're not going tovisit them.
You know, look at thearchitecture and then you have
(40:18):
this idea of red and blue ocean.
Where, you know, maybe we don'thave a firm statistic on this,
but you know, I would say itwould be generous to say that
25% of of American population iseven Attracted to a theater
(40:40):
style Church service.
They would even be attractedsitting there where one person
preaches from a stage andthere's a band and all the
cultural nuances of that, and alot of the people that are
attracted to that are alreadyChristians.
And it's even smaller inAustralia.
(41:04):
So they did, they did a thingin Australia and it was like 2%
of the population was evenattracted to a Kind of brick and
mortar in a box, think of atheater kind of set up.
And so if that's the case, if25% is America, or let's just
let's even say 40% I don't thinkit's that high, but let's say
(41:25):
40% of the population, thatmeans 60% of the population on
the other side of that pie Isnot attracted to that.
Yet we have conferences andseminaries and stuff that are
teaching young planters to goplant these little boxes that
look exactly like that andbecome CEOs.
(41:46):
Now, as an entrepreneur, if Iwant to be successful, let's
just think strategically.
Why would I focus on the 40%model, where everyone is going?
That's why that's red ocean,that's where sharks are all
eating on the same, they'refeeding on the same thing, and
it's just red, it's just bloody.
The blue ocean, it's fairlyclear, and that's where things
(42:11):
like that I mean, that's the,that's the good impetus behind
things like fresh expressions,the things you're involved with,
ruth, those kinds of things.
They're, they're out hereexperimenting with things that
are catching People that are notattracted to that.
Now, you know, like you said, ifthey're focused just on the
(42:35):
methodology, that's not enough,that's not deep enough.
There are no roots to that.
You use the word roots, and soI do think we still have to have
this missional call as God'speople.
But then that's when thoseexperimentations and it may be a
brick and mortar church thatmeets Once a month and three
(42:56):
weeks a month.
Your people are in home groupson mission, you know.
I know churches that arethey're doing different versions
of that, and so my push tochurch planters is always Don't
just haul off and go find amiddle school and buy chairs and
smoke machines and projectorsand stuff is like think about
(43:18):
the blue ocean and plant missionfirst and let ecclesiology
follow the contextual questionsthat you ask about mission.
So I'm called to this place,this people.
What is it that this peopleneed as good news?
Now, let's plant anecclesiology that fits that or
(43:41):
helps to answer that.
Kirk Romberg (43:42):
I Love that, that contrast, because what I think I
hear you saying is it's not andI don't mean to be cliche, I've
heard this before.
You have to.
So, as Ruth, it's not that thechurch has a mission, is that
the mission has a church, andthat church needs to be
different to suit the mission,not in the other way around.
(44:04):
And and so it's a completereversal of thinking.
And, as as we move towardsclosing, I I'm curious If you
could share a little bit aboutPando collective here in
Colorado or forge in AmericaEither one or both as well as
(44:27):
the, your most recent book,because what I'm hoping to do is
leave the listeners with withsome kind of trail to follow.
Somebody might be listening tothis and thinking I would like
to take some steps toremembering and then expressing
that remembrance as a sent one,and I've had multiple
(44:50):
conversations, and so has Ruth,with individuals who know they
can't go back to one thing, butthey don't know the way forward,
and what would it look like forthem to, to explore, like, how
can they connect with you orPando or forge?
Not that we're saying this isthe way, but it certainly is a
(45:12):
different way and a Rememberingway back to our roots of sent
ones, if you can.
Rowland Smith (45:24):
Sure, yeah, yeah, pando came out of just a
realization that you knowapostolicky type people and
pastors.
They need community.
They're often walking alone andsome people we keep saying
(45:44):
pando and some people areprobably like what's there?
Are they saying panda?
Or like what?
What does that mean?
So pando is real, quickly isthis Latin word that means I
spread out, and the largestliving organism on earth, which
is about six hours west of us inUtah.
(46:05):
It's called pando the clone, orpando the trembling giant, and
it's an aspen grove, and thoseof us that live in Colorado we
understand that aspen's don'tspread out by dropping you know,
they don't have pine cones andall that kind of stuff Seeds.
They spread their roots outunderground and then new things
(46:25):
pop up.
And even as trees are dying off, new things are kind of coming
up through the soil.
And so pando is this grove of55,000 aspen trees, 106 acres.
This is a great time of year togo see it because they're
everything starting to change uphere in the mountains.
(46:46):
But it's amazing becausethey've DNA tested a lot of
these trees and they're the sametree.
So it's a clone, it's oneorganism.
It looks like 55,000 treesabove ground, but it's all.
It's got one root systemunderground, so it's a.
To us it's like oh, what aperfect metaphor, not only
(47:06):
because we're in Colorado, butit's just a perfect metaphor for
the church and the kingdom andthe way that we want to see
things.
You know, and so and there's alot of cool things about that
metaphor, where the older treeshelp feed the newer trees and
you know as they're dying, andso there's, there's a lot of
(47:27):
great metaphors in there.
So pando collective is inColorado Springs and there's
also kind of a tribe, I wouldsay, up in Denver that has
started Jeremy and Monicachambers and are kind of
curating that.
Jeremy and Monica are also onour national team for Forge and
(47:48):
so we say the pando collectiveis a network of missional
practitioners and it's poweredby Forge.
That's kind of how we speak.
So rather than having ForgeColorado, we have the pando
collective, but it's very muchhas.
Forge is kind of a foundational.
You know, those are the paversunderneath us.
(48:12):
Anyone could be part of pandoand we welcome anyone to come
into the conversation.
Denver has meetings, coloradohas meetings.
Sometimes we'll do trainings.
We're gonna have Mike Frosthere in November I'm sorry in
January and you know.
So we'll do a big pandogathering.
(48:32):
So sometimes we'll do trainingsor cohorts or those kinds of
things.
Pando was launched out of abrick and mortar church.
The one I'm at, kind of like atugboat to pull our church,
continue pulling it to bemissional.
And as we disciple people andthey say, hey, I have an idea,
(48:53):
that's our R&D department,that's where we send them to
incubate ideas fund.
We can even fund them withKingdom grants like get them
started.
So there's a lot of networkskind of like this or different
forms of it around the country.
But that's what pandocollective is and the the
(49:14):
pandocolectivecom is the website.
There's a couple of videos onthere that explain what it is
and there's a connection form.
So love, love to have youconnect.
Forge America is a largernational missional organization.
It's part of a worldwideorganization.
We actually do more structuredresourcing and coaching and
(49:39):
training and we do invite a lotof churches and pastors into
that community to just helpnavigate some of these things so
they don't feel alone and wehave different levels of that
and there's a connection form onthere and then.
I have a personal website, whichI should be doing more blogging
(50:03):
and stuff, but I don't.
But it's still the connectionform, still active, and it's
info at Roland Smithnet.
So, yeah, I'd love to connectwith people.
I'd love to grab some calls,love to help, resource and point
people where they need to go.
(50:24):
So for where I think they needto go.
Early last year or the end ofthe year before, we released Red
Skies Ten essentialconversations for the future of
the church and I mean that waskind of funny because I had
listed all of these things thatneed to be addressed.
You know that I felt likeneeded to be addressed in the
(50:47):
church and it's like, oh my gosh, I'm either going to be the
most arrogant writer that hasever put out a book or it's
going to take me 20 years towrite this thing.
And so what I did?
Because you know I've beenblessed to network with some
great people, a lot of people,voices that people know, and so
(51:09):
I invited other authors intothis and they each took a
chapter and wrote on.
You know, the question was whatdoes the church need to pay
attention to for the next 20years in order to be good news?
That was the thesis questiongiven to every one of them, and
so then they submitted a chapterand we published it through a
(51:31):
hundred movements publishing,which is Alan Hirsch's part of
one of Alan Hirsch's network,and it's a fantastic book.
And you, you get littlesnippets from different people,
you know that are all indifferent contexts.
You know women and men, peopleof color, and kind of talking
(51:52):
about the future of the churchand the things we need to pay
attention to.
So it's called Red Skies andit's also, you know, on Amazon.
It's a good way to get it.
Ruth Lorensson (52:01):
That's awesome, that sounds amazing, and just
want to encourage our listenersto you know, pick up those books
.
I think that they can be reallyuseful.
Roland, thank you so much wegot.
I don't know how to thank youenough.
It feels like this conversationhas been so rich, like I mean.
I feel like we could carry onchatting for hours because of
(52:23):
what you, what you're bringingto the table, is so rich, so
wise.
We really appreciate you.
We're so excited that you're inColorado too, so you'll be
seeing us, whether you like itor not.
Rowland Smith (52:35):
Well, I love Fort Collins so I'll make a trip up
and I've spent some timetogether and love to see you
again, kirk, and thanks forhaving me.
It's been.
I mean, I love talking aboutthis stuff, but you know, I love
dreaming with other peopleabout how we can, you know, how
we can be a community of churchleaders together and not, you
(52:57):
know, and not just sit in ourdepression and brokenness and
what am I going to do, you know,in the future.
So really encourage any of yourlisteners.
Don't, don't walk in stuffalone.
Get a coach, get a community,something you know.
Ruth Lorensson (53:10):
Yeah, that's absolutely right and that's
that's the whole emphasis ofthis podcast is to is to be real
, but to be hopeful.
Thanks for listening to theReconstructing Pastors podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode andyou'd like to help support the
(53:32):
podcast, please share it withothers, post about it on social
media or leave a rating andreview.
Kirk Romberg (53:40):
And if you're interested in leaning into this
conversation further, we'd lovefor you to be a part of a
special online communitycoaching space called
Reconstructing Pastors cohort.
For details, visit our websiteat bridge and rhinocom.
See you at the next episode.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.